Yeah. A lot of the characters really show a lack of understanding of others in one way or another and that really has amped up. Mind you, they’re all still pretty fresh off a number of traumatic events so it’ll be interesting to see how they handle it in the future.
Maybe they’re just now in the post honeymoon phase of the friendship. Nobody has to try as hard cause it’s been a few months and everyone kind of knows what each other’s deal is.
Humans … what amazes me, is that like 90% of adults drive cars, and accidents are as rare as they are. I grant you that society took awhile to come up with rules and training and equipment for that which work with actual humans, but still. It’s amazing. I wouldn’t have thought humans were capable of it.
I feel it’s more that they’ve all started to understand things about each other that they don’t like, and don’t quite have the maturity to be tactful or tolerant of each others faults yet.
Yep, every one should be getting intensive therapy for what they went through a few months ago their time, several years ago our time, particularly Becky who saw her father die in front of her.
Amber also needs a few hundred hours of therapy for her abusive father getting murdered, and for the damage she suffered as a result of that abuse.
Also, being 18-19 years old does that to people. Worth remembering that these folks are all “adults” only in the technical, legal sense of the word – they’re, excepting the ex-grad students and RAs, all still teenagers, with all that implies in terms of emotional maturity and neurological development.
I think Willis has dialed down the unlikely level of continuing violence that marked the first ten years of the strip. As a result, he’s focusing on the humor of interpersonal dynamics of a group of college underclassmen (plus a few sorta adults). That means more minor squabbles and misunderstandings, done humorously. Plus more serious conflicts and issues, because Willis does make use of the drama tag.
Yo I flagged this comment by accident, it’s late and the text is very small on my monitor
But anyway, yeah they’re Teens, AND in college. Most of them are gonna be low-grade sleep deprived and stressing about grades or sexuality or self-discoveries or others’ self-discoveries, several of them are still dealing with trauma, and it’s not physically possible to be mindful of one’s words at literally all times.
I’m gonna give some bonus points to Dorothy’s reaction for being kinda Jerky. At least the way the bold text is forcing me to read her emphasis, anyway.
Dorothy’s insinuation that understanding people means she couldn’t possibly be on the spectrum is definitely a bit Jerky. Her self assessment is also biased since she has demonstrated many times where she doesn’t quite understand people as well as she believes.
I read it a bit more like “No, it’s not because I’m autistic, it’s because I understand people, asshole”. People are reading that she’s saying the latter proves the former, and maybe that is what she’s blurting out, but it still feels like the least favorable possible read of the panel.
Agreed, but that seems to be par for the course for how people are interpreting character actions recently
I guess it’s the internet everyone is automatically the worst possible interpretation of their actions instead of being the more typical middle of the road
That all said, Sarah might have a point to some extent but I’d be annoyed too if someone said it like that to me and might blurt out some shit that is worse than I’d say normally
but you know, we haven’t seen a real villain since…
Well even Raidah isn’t a real villain, she can change to be better within a few years so I guess since we’ve seen parents.
So in the absence of villains, everyone is a villain-in-progress.
This comic’s has always been about a bunch of characters who are assholes, but Sarah insinuating Dorothy’s autistic to insult her when there’s one and possibly two actually autistic women from their friend circle still within a 50 foot radius is getting dangerously close to the Mary Zone.
It also makes the “Yeah, I’d buy it” response when Joyce revealed the referral seem a lot jerkier. It’s not a supportive comment at all.
Is Sarah using it as an insult? I hadn’t read it that way myself. A bit assumptive and overly personal given that they aren’t very close, sure, but it seemed to me like Sarah was speaking in earnest.
It does seem to me that Dorothy took it as an insult, given how she responded, which makes me wonder how she really thinks of her friends.
I mean, it definitely comes off as a dig, particularly given Sarah’s character. “Huh, you’re super methodical/ detail-oriented/ obsessive, must be on the spectrum haha”… there’s basically no way she said that without knowing it was at the very least impertinent to say. Why did she even need to say it? Because she suspects Dorothy gives enough of a shit to be planning how to support Joyce? I usually feel like Sarah speaks a lot of sense/ her worldview isn’t that out of line with reality, but here, she’s kind of in the wrong for my money.
I’m pretty sure her point was that Dorothy shouldn’t have any problems with supporting Joyce because they share the neurotype in the first place. Which is the opposite of an insult?
It also feels a bit weird/unfair that Sarah, the eternal misanthrop who keeps people at arms reach, to say that last line when Dorothy is the one of the two of them that has formed multiple close relationships with people already. Granted Dorothy does have a habit of sometimes abandoning those relationships when it comes to school work but that is not really evidence that she doesn’t know people, just that she can overwork herself and have an unhealthy work life balance at points.
You can understand people and be on the spectrum. That’s sorta the concept behind a spectrum. ie. A wide breadth of experiences and habits that are not at all narrowed down to one particular behavior but are loosely associated.
I have difficulty with subtext and reading intentions but I’ve also found that everyone else seems to be just as bad at them regardless of what they think so I’m not sure if I’m on the spectrum or doing some Socrates “I know that I know nothing” shtick.
I used to think I was good at it, eventually realized I was good at making up stories to fit small things I noticed and the truth had nothing to do with it.
I think that was more Dorothy’s annoyance at everyone assuming she is an inhuman goddess than her trying to say “because I understand people I cant be on the spectrum.”
Yeah. It’s actually more likely in female autistics since they (we?) pay more attention to social cues in an attempt to compensate. That’s part of the reason why women with autism are harder to diagnose.
The same goes for women with ADD and ADHD. Many are hyper organized because putting things in specific places means they don’t have to actually pay attention to where they leave things. Or, say, in spreadsheets.
That “So Joyce still doesn’t know?” line from Becks basically confirms to me the comment theory that she expects and probably even wants Joyce to find out secondhand instead of having to tell her. I don’t think the “phews” will be lasting much longer either.
There’s also a little printer-looking machine I’ve seen that you can buy, and all you do is put these special papers in, print off the image you want, and I’m not sure if you cut it yourself or if the machine cuts it, but then you just slap it on the thing it goes on and boom. Custom items. Pretty sure lots of Etsy stores use them, especially the ones that sell decals.
Buying a T-shirt online i cheaper than buying a printer. I have a Redbubble store and the prices are not shocking. Stickers only cost a few dollars on average.
Also there is the issue of copyright. Yoto might be fine with people using his images but maybe not. Support the creators!
I read it more as the implied “you need to use spreadsheets and books to understand people” that she’s objecting to rather than a claim autistic people can’t understand people. It’s been something of a sore point for her in the past, I think.
There is a tendency among some people with autism to deal with other people by attempting to discover and learn the rules and then to use those rules to deal with other people. And of course that doesn’t really work well because people are complicated.
While I make no claim to autism, it wasn’t until about second grade that I discovered the actual rule to understanding other people was to put yourself in their place. Before that, people were for me and then against me and then for me and it was bewildering and made the world a bewildering place. Afterwards things were much easier.
I make no claim on being normal either. I kind of find normal people boring. Every one interesting, when you get to know them, is weird in some way and often a lot of ways. You’ll notice I count myself almong the interesting. We’re all wierd in different ways and that’s okay. Sometimes labels are useful and often they are not.
Sarah’s comment about Dorothy’s brain being a spreadsheet, refers to Dorothy’s use of lists and spreadsheets and similar aids to memory and thought. Sarah’s implication is that Dorothy needs these because she is dealing with other people through rules and not through actual understanding. Dorothy follows this chain of thought just fine and counters that she understands people, a bit forcefully because this is something she’s thought herself before and rejected. I tend to agree with Dorothy on this one. She uses lists, spreadsheets, outlines and whatnot, not as crutches to help her deal, but because she is compulsive about organization and self organization in particular. It makes her more effective. She does understand people, though she has a tendency to deal with them as things (which they are – it’s just not all that they are).
Now all of this has to be taken with salt, because I’ve been wrong about Willis’s universe before. I’ve even been wrong about the real world. Heck, even mathematics has betrayed me. Two dimensional and three dimensional space are topologically equivalent, and although I completely understand why, it’s still morally wrong on math’s part.
also the “put yourself in their place” rule never worked well for me, my brain’s too different 😂 most people don’t feel physical pain from certain sounds (heck they can’t even hear a lot of the bad ones), they have vastly different emotional reactions, etc.
It’s more like trying to put myself in the place of someone half-blind, half-deaf and half-numb, with an extra set of social senses that I can only vaguely model, and then I have to plug in whatever their personal values are, which often skew away from truth and/or morality in favour of social status or cohesion.
I am going to try to be charitable here because, to be frank, most neurotypical people make a lot of mistakes out of ignorance when it comes to neurodivergent people, not the least of which being using the term “the spectrum” to begin with, which is something that’s kind of controversial.
That being said, they’re neophytes here. I don’t ask perfection out of them that I wouldn’t ask from Joyce or any of the others who are here, learning, and dropping shitty aspects of who they are or what they believe. I do hope these two approach the topic with humility, ultimately.
What’s wrong with the term “on the spectrum”? First I’ve heard of a controversy, but then it’s about 15 years since I participated in much community so maybe I’m behind the times.
Hm. Looks like “neuroatypical” isn’t actually a word. How about “unique”? I like that word. It’s like “special,” only specialer. SUPERspecial! 🙂
Just different. Think different. 😉
Also, I’m fluid, gender-fluid, fluid in sexuality, etc. 🤗
I’m also fluid in neurodivergence too! I can wake up one day and feel more like one of the many combinations that can be called “autism”, then more “ADHD” the next, and sometimes I flow through neurodivergences that don’t even have names yet!
What would you call that? Neuro-fluid?
I really wish that were a validly recognized thing, I really want to connect with others out there who are also this way!!!!
Yeah, that’s a good one too. Or “neurodiverse”? “Neuroqueer”? Just having fun with ideas…
I know “special” gets a bad rap in the way it’s often used pejoratively, but I do like “special,” just for myself and other such self-identifiers, even though I would never apply that term to someone else unless they wanted me to.
It’s like on the “People of Earth” TV comedy, where the aliens always woke up their abductees by telling them: “You. Are. Special.” Made the abductees feel more accepting of their unique experience and how it gave them community with others who had experienced similar life paths. (No personal connection, I just like the show.)
I definitely feel some degree of neuro-fluidity. When stressed, some of my more stereotypical autistic traits become more intense – largely, I think, because stress makes it harder to mask.
Not that it’s overly important, but “neuroatypical” is a word if English speaking people use it as a word and understand what it means. Not all words make it to the dictionary right away. And some never make it all.
Thing is, everyone’s unique – but despite what some who want to downplay our issues will say, not everyone is neurodivergent. (That’s actually kind of impossible, as if they were, it would no longer be a divergence…)
There’s a fellow on TikTok who goes by AHDHEverything, who’s been diagnosed with ADHD for many years and whose therapist believes he’s probably autistic as well, who does some wonderful breakdowns on the entire concept of “everyone’s a little bit ADHD” (and now “everyone’s a little bit autistic”). His videos get kind of salty because he’s annoyed by those folks, but he tries to be friendly and educational.
Thanks, Uly and Techhead! I just didn’t know it was actually in usage. I thought perhaps it would get read as just a misspelling of “neurotypical,” so I added another comment for clarification.
Apologies, I shouldn’t have used the shorthand “not actually a word,” — I meant it to self-deprecate my clumsy writing, not to disparage the word itself. Thank you for broadening my understanding!
I’m pretty plugged into some large segments of the austistic self advocacy community but this is the first I’ve hear of “on the spectrum” being in any way problematic.
But I’ve been having trouble keeping up with my tumblr feed with some of my special interests taking the forefront and occupying my time as well as my Adderall helping me do things other than scroll my tumblr feed constantly. So maybe the bloggers I follow have been talking about this and I missed their posts. Or it’s happening in a segment of the population I’m not involved with.
Some people interpret it as meaning “on a spectrum between A Little to Very Very Autistic” when autism doesn’t work in any sort of linear fashion; other people just think it’s weird to have a euphemism.
Yeah, that’s basically what it comes down to, “low-functioning” versus “high-functioning” is what many think of when a spectrum is mentioned, and that’s a really damaging and dated mindset for it, sort of like how Aspergers isn’t a thing anymore for a number of reasons, even if some still cling to it.
I personally don’t take umbrage with spectrum because I think of it as being a representation of varied experiences, but I have a few autistic friends who really can’t stand it.
But… I mean, just playing devil’s advocate — some traits are more disabling than others, in different circumstances and at different times, no? I’m not sure what’s wrong with saying that there’s a broad rainbow of neurological and neurodevelopmental variations in life, and that different traits require different adaptive strategies and supports.
I mean that’s what “on the spectrum” or “spectrum-y” or “spectrum-adjacent” means to me. That we dance with the rainbow.
…But just because I don’t intend any hurt doesn’t mean that my words aren’t hurtful. It’s not the intention that matters, but the effect. So I just want to thank all of you for making the time of have this conversation and to educate me about how my words can be hurtful to others. Thank you.
Hell, we dance on the rainbow. Most days, I don’t need that much support, my coping mechanisms work just fine. And then there are days when I just wake up wrong, or when it’s been a long day and the minor irritants have piled up, or Mercury’s in retrograde or something, and then I lose the ability to do anything more sophisticated than sit under a blanket and listen to music on my headphones.
“The most violent element in our society is ignorance.”
No kidding that I try to stay away from labels like “autism”, ’cause humans and their smol smol brains just can’t help but extrapolate so much HURTFUL stuff about it, stuff that they don’t want to deny if you try to correct it because of pride and shit.
CONSTANTLY trying to correct the so many things they get so so wrong, like running around trying to plug up holes in a sinking ship, got so fucking tired of it, and decided ultimately that the only way to play that game is to stop quitting.
I really really wish for a way I can say “autistic” that just stops their brains from leaning back on the long established pile of baggage out there that’s likely not gonna go away any time soon.
Wishful thinking, yeah I know. But hey, a slick can dream, right? Well I have a dream.
That’s pretty unnecessarily rude. I understand that you’re dealing with a lot of triggers right now, but please do so without insulting everyone who isn’t a space parasite.
Didn’t intend it as a real insult tho, more like a little snark and spice with a style that’s mine, a way I can escape from reality but also tackle real things.
A lot of people do similar things here, and you’ve seen them, no?
I don’t want to think that you’re deliberately misreading things I write like this in the least generous light, but just please be gentle, OK?
The word “literally” has been used as an intensifier for hundreds of years, within a few decades of first acquiring its figurative meaning of “true, honest”. (The original meaning is, of course, “of or relating to letters”. When you do algebra and solve for x, you’re doing literal equations.)
When we say something is an intensifier, btw, we do not mean that it “means” the same thing as “figurative”. We simply mean that it’s used to create a stronger meaning of the word it modifies. English has many intensifiers – really, truly, literally, honestly, extremely, awfully, terribly, wicked, mad, hella….
Now that you know that, here’s a question for you: Have you ever said that somebody’s use of “really” isn’t “real” and therefore must be wrong or that this must be a recent innovation and you don’t want it to mean that? If not, why do you think that is?
Maybe you could maybe re-read what you type before you send it? Just to check over things before you say them and consider where it could be insensitive. I’ve been on the outside looking in throughout all your comments on the last few pages and the more I see your name, the less comfortable I get while reading to see everyone’s thoughts. Your feelings are valid, and I empathize, but just because other people do things they shouldn’t, doesn’t give you a pass to act the same. I’d ask others to evaluate their words the exact same way I’m asking you to.
I offered understanding and said please. I was as gentle as I could be.
When someone tells you that you’re being rude it isn’t okay to say “are you deliberately trying to be?” And then suggest I’m the one not being gentle. Consider the feelings of others BEFORE you hit enter.
Hey, just in case you didn’t know, “smol”, as far as I know, is used to refer to something tiny in a cute way, like “what a smol puppy”. It’s not used in a disparaging manner; its intent is to highlight how adorable something is because it’s tiny.
Given the above discussion, I would enthusiastically advocate that you NOT employ “puny” in reference to the intelligence of everyone other than you either… just a suggestion. You’re clearly bothering people with that particular angle, so would you please consider conveying your thoughts without it?
I mean, neurodivergents absolutely tend to flock together. It wouldn’t be surprising if Dina and Joyce weren’t the only autistic people in the comic. But it would be nice for Joyce to have someone to relate to, and it doesn’t seem like Dina is it.
yeah, hella interesting and bizarre we just seem to be drawn towards each other like this, like Stand Users.
Or maybe the motion vector is coming from the other direction, in the form of self-propulsion away from the vast majority of neurotypicals who just don’t seem to understand us that well or sometimes even refuse to.
Maybe both. Sorry if I’m geeking out like this! 😅 I’m a STEM major who really likes physics, often times I intuitively model situations as physics problems like this to see if I can better understand what’s happening.
Dorothy’s response is really gross to me, more so than Sarah’s parting barb. (Yes, I’m neurodivergent myself.) Sarah basically says: hey maybe this is relatable to you, you seem to think in a very ordered, hyper focused on detail way, maybe you might also be on the spectrum. Dorothy responds with an immediate rejection, angry enough that her words are bolded, and those words basically drip contempt: I understand people. I understand people, I’m not like those socially clueless, somewhat alien autistic people. Sarah never said anything about her lacking empathy or understanding, she just said her organized thought processes could be a sign of autism. Dorothy jumped straight to defensive anger about being seen as socially maladjusted, taking insult to being accused of being autistic. Nice.
But it may be the start of a fascinating plotline where she realizes it’s been influencing her handling of things like the Presidency and maybe also her emotional happiness like that one time she got drunk and admitted she doesn’t know how to be happy.
Yeah interesting that Dorothy was so “it’s not going to change how we see you” to Joyce, but bristles so immediately at the implication SHE might also be neurodivergent. Sure it’s FINE to be autistic, if you’re a weirdo like Joyce. But Dorothy?? No, never!
I think this is a more generous read than Sarah deserves. She didn’t say all that you articulated. She said Dorothy’s brain was a spreadsheet which is almost as insulting as when Joyce called Dina a robot. Dorothy’s reaction is maybe more bitter than necessary, but we can’t just pretend Sarah didn’t jab, even doubling down on the insult at the end. It’s one of those situations where no one is really in the right. Many of the group dynamics go like this.
Yeah, honestly, it’s kinda baffling me how people in the comments seem to be giving Sarah’s comments the most favorable read possible (“She’s not doing insulting armchair diagnoses of someone, she’s just trying to help!”) while reading Dorothy’s comments as negatively as possible (“What, she thinks that people who are autistic don’t understand people, even though that’s not, strictly speaking, what she said, and she might be pissed off by the armchair diagnoses?”).
Dorothy is “too perfect” for some people, because she really tries to be nice and polite, and sometimes people hate that. Especially in women. And want them to fuck up – which everyone does.
Of course she’s saying it in response to Sarah’s “diagnosis.” Perhaps it’s because comments get separated from what they are responding to, but I haven’t seen anyone claiming otherwise.
I’ve seen a certain amount of variation in what people believe Sarah and Dorothy meant by what they said.
I think Dorothy is saying “I understand people” as evidence that she is not autistic. Some commenters say that’s an unfair interpretation. If she is responding to the diagnosis, what other interpretation is possible?
I can’t figure out how the “i understand people” comment could mean anything other than “I’m not autistic; I understand pwople.”
A lot of people seem to think that’s not the implication, so I am clearly missing something. How does that statement make sense if it’s not a counterargument to Sarah’s armchair diagnosis?
Replace the semicolon with a comma, changes it from “If autism then misunderstanding”. Sometimes you can say something isn’t the reason for something else without inherently saying that it would otherwise be. Like, “My house isn’t blue, it’s just cloudy out” doesn’t mean “Houses can’t look blue unless it’s cloudy out.”, if that makes sense.
To be clear, I genuinely want to understand. It seems like you have a different perspective than I do so I’m really curious. Re-reading my last comment, I was worried it sounded like I was trying to argue with you.
This is a bit late because sometimes sleep happens and we can’t fight it, but:
The house looking blue represents a perceived state of being. The cloudiness represents something that alters that perception but isn’t actually changing the state of being. I’m not eloquent enough to say it more clearly than that, so the rest is up to you.
Or it could just, you know, be Dorothy being vexed that people keep implying that she is socially incapable/robotic because people on occasion find her too serious/boring for their liking.
Or because it seems like downplaying how serious the symptoms can be and that she can’t possibly be autistic because she has very few social deficits in comparison to say Dina or raised in a cult Joyce.
The past two comics have ended with lines about how being autistic means it’s harder to understand people.
Today’s ends on Sarah implying Dorothy might be neurodivergent due to how organized she is.
Remember when Dorothy was going to apply to be R.A.? While there was ultimately no new R.A., Roz was clearly putting her best foot forward in becoming a popular choice. Dorothy was even taunted about being so organized that she was off-putting to “her constituents.” She was the group mom.
So Sarah hits a nerve. Dorothy’s fears of never being good enough for her dreams are speaking here. Regardless of what she thinks of neurodivergence, there’s no question that her chosen profession relies entirely on what other people think of her.
Does that excuse it? Up to you. But I can see exactly how we got to this point, which helps me accept it.
Agreed. I think she’s reacting to her own insecurities about how she understands and related to people and how they perceive her more than just the isolated suggestion she’s on the spectrum.
Dorothy is insecure about not being as charismatic as people like Becky or Roz, combined with ignorance about what being on the spectrum means and her anger at anything she sees as an obstacle to her career goal, her reaction though gross is not surprising.
Also that Dorothy’s defense is that she can’t possibly be because she understands people… which lots of people with autism do, particularly women with autism.
Also, to the Sarah/Dorothy argument… I mean, they can both be assholes. I’m not pleased with Sarah either, but Sarah is secondly only to Mike in being an asshole as a main character trait, so I kinda just rolled with it.
Also… yeah, Dorothy is a high chance of autism and an ever higher chance of ADD or ADHD. Her hyper organization is a major symptom of the female presentation of that.
Which I know because it is a trait she shares with my wife, who just got her diagnosis on Thursday.
“You should understand autistic people because you’re a fucking weirdo too” is not a nice thing to say to someone nor is it respectful to neurodivergent people. This is the second time in four strips Sarah has said that she believes someone is autistic because they act like it.
Sarah is being overtly bigoted here, even if only through insinuation
Sorry, I meant to say “because they ‘act like it'” in square quotes, by which I mean that SARAH believes that being “weird” is the same as being autistic. The way I wrote it makes it sound like *I* think Joyce “acts” stereotypically neurodivergent when I meant to say Sarah’s implying that *she* believes it
You’re the one bringing insults into this, ESM. Saying someone’s likely to be autistic because their brain is organized in a way heavily correlated with autism is not an insult? Like, being autistic is not an insult. “You act autistic” is not an insult. Sarah is not being bigoted here, she’s being observant.
Years before I got diagnosed, two of the friends I got along with best in college were a pair of sibling who were autistic. Once I started to realize I was also autistic, it made sense why we got along so well.
Lol I feel that! (I’m almost 25 for ref) My best friend since kindergarten was diagnosed in either late middle school or early high school and I was diagnosed this year. Their partner is also autistic and several members of our friend group are also autistic or ND in other ways. Having a larger number of ND friends probably is a “symptom” :p
No. The spectrum is a spectrum of how autism effects people. Neurotypical/allistic people are not on the spectrum because they are neurotypical/allistic.
Do you actually know anyone who is, though? Could they simply be better at “masking”, etc?
Because the more I think and learn and experience, the more I suspect that “normal” is just something we made up, or assume must exist out there because we can’t all be weird creatures groping in the dark… right?
All words are made up, not just “Normal”. They exist for the purpose of attempting to communicate, and redefining them in silly ways – like using “literally” to describe figurative things, or “retarded” to describe anyone unintelligent rather than a highly specific classification – just makes them worthless communication tools. Redefining the spectrum to say everyone is on it definitely falls in that category, we would just need to make a new word to describe the phenomenon we were trying to talk about that is, in fact, not observable in everyone.
> like using “literally” to describe figurative things
Any use of the word “literal” to mean anything other than “of or referring to letters” is figurative, however, that does not mean that “literal” ever means “figurative”. It does not. Literal and literally are intensifiers, no different from “really” or “very” – and yet, you somehow never hear anybody say “No, your mom didn’t really blow up, that’s not real” or “No, it’s not very cool, because it’s not cold in any verifiable sense at all, it’s only fashionable.”
The point being, there is now no longer a word that means “not figuratively” when using phrases that are commonly figurative, but not in that specific instance. The usage shift just left a communication hole.
While we’ve never seen a totally sane human being I do know a number of people who are not on the autism spectrum. Just because normal is something we made up that doesn’t mean everyone belongs to one specific subset of outside the alleged norm.
While that’s a fun philosophical argument, it actually runs the risk of *harming people* because it implies that their needs aren’t really real, they aren’t really disabled, they don’t really need particular help.
It’s the ableist answer to “Racism isn’t real because there’s Only One Human Race”. Lovely sentiment, to be sure, but damaging and false.
You’re asking for someone to provide proof of absence based on an absence of proof. That’s silly. “Can you definitely know that someone isn’t autistic and not just good at pretending they’re not?” Just ridiculous.
That’s the other end of the spectrum, it’s a range from 0 through 1, with 0 being “neurotypical” and 1 being “something totally not neurotypical”. TBH I have no idea of the other end of the spectrum because by that point there are so many other diagnosis.
There’s some confusion over what the spectrum is in this comment section. It’s not a 0-1 linear spectrum from more to less Autistic, rather the spectrum is like an eight/ten-point graph representing each commonly experienced trait (emotion regulation, social receptiveness, pattern seeking, routine adherence etc) that shows how much each person experiences each trait.
I’m not saying you’re wrong Sarah. I’m just saying it’s generally impolite to actually say that to someone who hasn’t asked for your input on the subject unless you’re their doctor or you’re trying to help them access needed accommodations at work or school.
It’s like no matter how obvious a little unhatched egg is being you don’t go trying to crack their shell for them.
You know, I was fully expecting Joyce to be the one to start rattling off stereotypes first, but apparently no one in this comic (except maybe Dina) knows how autism works. Also, “You don’t understand people” is REAL FUCKING RICH coming from Sarah.
I wouldn’t say being anti-social means you don’t have people skills. Sometimes your Anti-social because you don’t like people because have the tendency to suck.
To be more specific, then, Sarah, being the pessimistic misanthrope that she is, has a tendency to assume the worst about people, and she’s usually wrong. This gives her a pretty warped perception of others, which contributes to her anti-social behavior.
Anyway, 0 criticism took place here. This is legitimate analysis of Dorothy’s whole… thing? Sarah is probably right and she was trying to point out that Dorothy should not in her opinion have trouble understanding Joyce…
Being autistic is not inherently a fucking insult what the fuck is wrong with this comment section
I think we’re going to hear stereotypes and misunderstandings from just about everyone. I don’t know about kids (/college freshmen) these days but so few adults 30+ actually understand the autism spectrum unless they’re on it, potentially on it, or have children on it.
It never even crossed my mind I could be autistic because I wasn’t taught what it actually was, just attacked with “Rainman” comments or having the label used as an insult like “gay” was at the time.
The not being told what autistic actually means thing is huge. I feel like that part of your comment needs to be bolded.
When I was in my teens and early 20s, I made a concerted effort to study the social interactions of other people, mostly my friends, and imitate them until they started to feel natural. By the time I was 22, I had mastered them to the point where I no longer had to regularly ‘fake’ them.
I am now in my early 40s. I did not learn until a few months ago that the above behavior is extremely common for women with autism.
“So, Dorothy, you think you can just Google how-to guides and magically understand how to “handle” an “autistic” person with the first result that’s likely tainted by Autism Speaks or otherwise the pop-psyche pseudo-science bullshit greedy corporations profit on, like we neurodivergents are some mass-produced machines that work more or less the same according to some magic problem-solving how-to guide?!?!?!”
Yeah, I get the negative interpretations and reactions to what she says later in the strip, but the Googling part could just as well be, “I’m going to try to educate myself on this to best support my friend.” Not that I necessarily have been in favor of Dorothy’s more recent “supporting Joyce” attempts, but I get that impulse.
She’s doing better than Sarah here, who is now using “hey you might be autistic too” as a general purpose battering ram. I think Dorothy is implying that Sarah is the one who doesn’t understand people.
For someone capable of critical thinking, using all available resource is probably the best way to make a better educated assessment of the situation they are in.
And, alongside all of its garbage, google will probably give her some relevant and useful information. Whether she will be able to properly filter through the garbage is anyone’s guess for now, but it seems premature to blame her for trying.
I just really wish / hope she asks Joyce before she does anything, and really gives her a safe place, the safe space she needs to sort herself out. 😔
Besides how delicate this kind of thing can be in general, Joyce had already been denied the room she needed for her growing pains regarding atheism, and now she really needs that room more than ever. 🥺
I absolutely agree with you, and this piece of advice is probably available somewhere in those internet search results, is what I was aiming at.
Also, something worth noting, search engines will reference those threads somewhere and those conversation might end up helping someone in the future.
And finally, having been lucky enough to be raised by very understanding and respectful people, I am often shocked to see that asking the person is not part of everyone’s line of conduct regarding this kind of things.
Sounds a little like the dunning-kruger effect. As much as – some – of Dorothy’s efforts have not worked, she is at least _trying_ to be helpful and supportive, and doing so from a place of love. Unlike many others, she also backs off when Joyce or others ask it.
Lastly, Dorothy isn’t the sort to rely on single sources of information.
A _little_ knowlege can increase ignorance, until you gain more knowlege. **No** knowlege is perpetuates ignorance forever.
Becky, if you REALLY want to keep a secret, don’t talk about the fact that you have a secret to keep from someone specifically when you’re two feet behind her.
Per previous discussions, I don’t think she actually does. I think she wants Joyce to find out and engage her in a very specific way that will fit into/reinforce Becky’s self-image and how she response to being challenged.
That would actually be a very interesting thing for Dotty to deal with, the realization that she has a condition that could very likely (and has very likely) made her career choice/path much harder. It may have also blinded her that the Presidency is not a merit-based position but a contest on popularity that doesn’t remotely depend on one’s education level but one’s ability to network.
Oh, shit. Is this finally Dorothy beginning to confront the internalized ableism she’s been dancing around for the whole comic’s run? Her “I can get better grades if I just try harder” attitude really rings, in hindsight, with a conviction that she CAN’T be disabled, disabled people don’t get to be successful, there are no “excuses” for “failure”.
I don’t think Dorothy is neuro divergent I think Sarah doesn’t fully understand what is to be neuro divergent or attic other then preconcived notions and Dorothy doesn’t fully understand what it is to be neuro divergent either hence why she is already planing a support system.
Also Sarah and Dorothy’s instincts when it comes to Joyce is to be protective. Its not a bad thing but as I had said in another post I don’t know if other neurodivergent folks feel this way but I hate to be protected it says to me there is something wrong with me and I can’t handle my own life and that is infuriating but understandable
Dorothy could go either way, really. She’s very high functioning on the spectrum if she is and it’s also possible that Sarah is just playing to Dorothy’s insecurities.
“High functioning” is a term used to deny you help. “Low functioning” is a term used to deny your basic humanity. Let’s try to avoid the functioning labels.
Also: Both terms are used to deny autistic people’s input. If you’re “high functioning” you obviously don’t understand “real” autism, and if you’re “low functioning” you obviously are too impaired to understand your own needs. Blech.
This is just in general something people find hard to imagine.
They can’t understand that some people have WILDLY UNBALANCED capabilities. Like can drive a car but will forget to take their medications.
Because people equate it to intelligence or maturity when it is more like everyone has a skill tree and some skill trees you’ve gotta go up 20 levels before you get that skill everyone else had at level 2. And some people just have skills blocked off entirely.
Or the classic insult that I push back against every time I see it “can’t even tie his shoes”.
Like, I wasn’t tying my shoes until 11, and that was before I was capable of reliably zipping up my own jacket or doing up all my own buttons. I was reading on a graduate school level by 9. The one has literally nothing to do with the other.
But people keep saying it. (And for “people” read “ignorant jerks”.)
…Huh. I’m not sure how seriously we’re meant to take Sarah’s hypothesis here, but Dorothy’s response is interesting.
1) I’m not even remotely an expert here, but the fact that Dorothy’s rebuttal consists of saying she can’t be autistic because she “understand[s] people” seems like a sign that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Both Dina and Joyce have been seen struggling with social cues, but the idea that they don’t understand people is… patronizing, at best.
2) Dorothy seems rather angry at the suggestion, which makes me wonder if it has something to do with a part of her history that we don’t know about. Dorothy responded to Joyce’s referral by saying it wouldn’t change how her friends felt about her, but she seems to perceive what Sarah is saying as a threat to her own self-perception.
I mean, being on the spectrum (let alone getting a formal diagnosis) would have VAST reprocussions for a political career like Dorothy is certain she wants and has been monofocused on.
Not impossible.
But certainly something that would have serious consequences.
It also could be the source of the suggestion. I once had a Partner who had a 20 year old degree in psychology but had never worked in the field, insist on suggesting diagnosis for me and diagnosing me with things for behaviors he didn’t like. Like if I had boundaries about him not making annoying sounds in the car it was because he thought I had ADHD sensory issues. But he kept making the noises.
Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. The anger was not at the idea of the diagnosis, it was that someone who didn’t have the full proper qualifications giving my unasked for diagnosis as a way to avoid my boundaries. It was a derail of the current real issue at hand. There is a reason some comment spaces say “We don’t diagnose over the internet.” It’s one thing for a good friend to say “Hey maybe you might want to look at this thing that sounds similar to the challenges you have been having?” But Sarah and Dorothy don’t have that kind of friendship.
I think anyone would react poorly to a person they know rudely giving them a label they did not ask for. I don’t read the anger as being about the idea that she might be neurodivergent, but anger that an unqualified dorm mate is picking on her for being a serious student and assigning a label that Dorothy never asked to be assessed for.
1 neurodivergent people can understand people. I’m neurodovergent myself and I often understand social context and have empathy but I have difficulty expressing affirmation that I understand or potraying empathy like there is some sort of barrier my cadence reflects this. Its hard to describe its like there is a delay from my brain to my mouth. And by the time I relay my understanding its become awkward and my cadence is always a problem people often can’t understand when I am joking or being facetious.
2 people who are highly organized and seek to structure they’re lives doesn’t mean they are neuro divergent Dorothy has not shown really much in the way of being neuro divergent other then this stereotype that ads have a thing for organization and need to learn. Yes consistency is helpful for those with autism and adhd but having a predisposition for it is not on the spectrum.
Both character clearly should let Dina and Joyce deal with proffesions and provide emotional support and understanding
I can tell you the worst feeling is when my freinds and family try to infantalize me or assume I need their help all throught life to be protected, I am able to function and realize when or when I don’t need help I need support not someone to run my life.
I think Dotty is just displaying actual ignorance of the subject, which is rare from her but not unprecedented.
Dorothy’s hyper-organization, monofocus on her goal, social awkwardness (she treats every personal interaction with a system), and general social distance means she could be a high-functioning person on the spectrum. Not necessarily but possibly. The biggest evidence being her epic fail at attempting to actually socially network beyond her social love during the RA “election” that Roz aced.
I fully could see this developing into a full plot where she has a breakdown at the realization she has been unwittingly operating with a condition this entire time that has influenced a lot of her development.
One that could have serious consequences for her lifegoals.
I still don’t think Dotty is high functioning or on the spectrum the or noticeable trait that is stereotypically associated with autism is Dorothy’s commitment to organization and having a system yet she doesn’t seem to get as worked up when her system fails and she adapts.
Also Dorothy regularly sees a pyscholgost at some point they would identify her.
The biggest hint I would say that Dorothy isn’t autistic I misspoke Dorothy could be Neuro-divergent with ADHD or OCD even then I don’t think she is
Like her interactions with Becky even if she is high functioning she still would not keep that calm when dealing with Becky’s behavoir I personally would have lost it if someone would badger me like Becky does Dorothy even if it’s not mean-spirited.
Take Dina and Joyce when they are badgered they are more likely to get defensive and worked up. Dina assaults people for saying dinosaurs don’t have feathers (obviously this is extracted for comedic effect) but even with out this expiration Dina gets very defensive when ribbed or badgered Joyce also tends to get defensive when pushed.
The Roz RA thing was just Roz was being so absurd and obtuse and competitive that anyone competing with her would get frustrated. Dorothy backed down when she learned why Roz wanted to be RA.
This reminds me of the commonly held belief that Autistic people have a particular accent. It’s more noticeable in a country where the language is musical and lyrical like Ireland. And why someone could assume Dina is using English as a second language. Joyce is very empathic and sweet but doesn’t always know how to communicate that. Your typical human is very tuned in to extremely subtle timing and inflections, it’s why they are so vulnerable to hucksters and scammers and will believe Fox News over boring NPR and NYT. On a good day I can imitate that. Dorothy is such a Hilary Clinton, competent and serious and knowledgeable and not able to win that confidence game we require of politicians. (Although she did win the actual majority of the votes! Just couldn’t win in the confederate states that count in the EC.)
I’d say it’s more informal than nonsensical. From what I’ve read, the “autistic accent” has to do largely with intonation. English has very little pitch variation, a feature which could informally be described as being “not musical”. It seems conceivable to me that the fact that English expresses stress through loudness rather than pitch would make certain kinds of atypical intonation less noticeable.
This might all be wrong, but I don’t think it’s nonsensical.
English is a stress-timed language. English stress is expressed both through loudness and also timing and, relatedly, vowel reduction.
Regardless, the majority of Irish speak English. I assumed that the comment above me was refering to Irish English, not Irish Gaelic.
It is nonsensical to claim that Irish English is somehow “more musical” than other Englishes. It’s not. People’s perceptions of a speech variety and how “musical” or “harsh” it is are subjective, and have a lot more to do with how they think of those people rather than how the language actually sounds.
After everything that happened to them recently they need a therapy. They’ve been through some godsawful horrifying shit just months ago that they haven’t really emotionally recovered from so it’s not really a surprise they’re being a little snapish.
I the one hand, I do put a bit more faith in Dorothy’s research skills than that – she’s not just going to click the first link that pops up and take it as gospel. On the other hand, yeah, it can be REAL tough to find good information online about autism, especially if you’re new to the topic. There’s so much misinformation and stigma, and so much of it can be actively dangerous. ABA is still considered by many to be the go-to therapy option for autism, despite it literally having been developed by the SAME GUY who invented CONVERSION THERAPY, and the fact that people who have actually been through it regularly report it traumatizing them.
Yeah, even more reason I speculate that in the near future, “autism” might be discarded for the same reasons “Aspergers” was done away with in recent years.
The kinds of “professionals” who made these terms long ago where the same kinds of people who called Homosexuality a “mental disorder”.
As heart-breaking as it is, these labels were really only designed to paint over us, marginalize us so the neurotypicals living at the time didn’t need to even think about us too deeply.
The word “autism” itself was formed from those Latin roots for it to mean “morbidly self-absorbed”, and that alone says a lot about the REALLY bad place these labels came from without digging into the gruesome details.
If individual neurodivergents still want to use “autism” or “Asperger’s Syndrome” for themselves out of wanting to reclaim it or just as a source of pride and joy, I respect that too.
Yeah, NO KIDDING about the misinformation out there being actively dangerous.
There’s still so so much discussion about this to be had, considering the REALLY bad place where it all started.
Okay, I do feel the need to push back a little bit, because I do think “autism” is good and important to have as a label. No, it’s not perfect, yes there’s a lot of stigma around it, but having the language to describe ourselves, both as individuals and as a community, allows us to organize, advocate, build support systems, and work to make life more accessible to people on the spectrum.
And while autism could definitely stand to be less medicalized, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be studied or that there isn’t a place in the aforementioned support systems for doctors and psychologists, because despite how it may sometimes seem, the entire academic and medical communities aren’t out to get us; there are people in them who are doing their best to help, and the more visible we are and the more we advocate for ourselves, the more of those people will emerge.
But to have that visibility, we need to be a distinct bloc, and for that we need a label. There may be some baggage to it, but as labels go, we could certainly do a lot worse than “autism”. (I mean, look at what the LGBT+ community has managed with “queer”, and that word was a straight-up slur before it got reclaimed.)
I’m 100% with thakoru on this. I don’t care that the term “autism” has an offensive Latin meaning; basically no one uses Latin anymore. I don’t care that “autism,” as a term, was coined by people who had regressive views. It works very well as a branding term and doesn’t carry any more baggage, in the end, than would rapidly come to stick to any other term that we would choose to describe us.
Picking a new term and spending the time and energy and money to get people using it instead, would be a massive waste of those resources that would be better spent actually getting us accommodations in society, destigmatizing the condition, and building infrastructure to help autistic persons find employment, for example. The unemployment rate for autistic people is Sky-high. That means we struggle to support ourselves. We need to have better support infrastructure.
And, you know, we also need to shut down the torture centers and educate the populace. All of that requires massive amounts of time and energy and even money, and diverting those resources to a name-change is one of the most useless things I can think of.
I didn’t say that medical communities and academic fields were “out to get us”, but a lot of them, if not the overwhelming majority, still have practices and paradigms that are still just infected with bias from the awful past and still influences doctors and professionals who hurt us in ways they don’t even realize.
A word for visibility like that is very important, YES, but I just want a word, a set of words, compound words that can mean “autism” / combinations of neurodivergent stripes that just removes itself from the awful past, all the connotations, the hurtful stuff.
So has Sarah’s statements seemed a bit ableist to anyone else? I got the vibe last comic too but didn’t see a lot of people talking about it so I thought I might be misreading something but with this comic I’m wondering if it was more then a coincidence
Dorothy also doesn’t come off great here but at least she seems to be coming from a place of ignorance
Yeah, I’m in camp “Fuck Off, Sarah” here. Dorothy’s saying dumb shit here in response, and that deserves a paddling too, but, just as a general rule, don’t do fucking armchair diagnoses of neurological conditions. The most you should do is say “Hey, have you considered getting that looked at by a medical professional?”.
Because unless PolySci major Sarah has some personal experience with autism that she’s been keeping under wraps, her impressions of it are almost certainly based on stereotypes and ableist thinking, including the “Oh, you’re so smart and organized, it must be because you’re neuroatypical!” trope that is so common with bad writers trying to tell stories involving autism that aren’t inherently negative, and swing back to partronizing instead.
Frankly, Dorothy’s snippiness just comes off as her getting pissed off at Sarah’s bullshit here more than anything.
I get your response, but I think it’s less Dorothy doesnt understand what autism is and is more likely googling “how do I support someone going through an autism diagnosis”
It’s rather world shattering sometimes to find out later in life you’re neurodivergent and this is clearly something that is affecting Joyce. My friend was diagnosed schizo-affective and I immediately started looking at best ways to help them during a paranoid episode. seeing as Sarah just asked about support systems that’s what I think Dorothy is responding to.
Are we reading the same comic? Based on what I’ve read so far, I’m pretty sure Dorothy, the character in this comic, would do her due diligence in researching this topic, rather than settle with, as you say, “the first result that’s likely tainted by Autism Speaks or otherwise the pop-psyche pseudo-science bullshit greedy corporations profit on.” And if she didn’t look beyond that? That’s fine! I bet Willis would be able to use that as an opportunity to explore a new relationship dynamic. And if he didn’t do that? That’s fine, too! This is his story that he’s telling in the way he feels it is best communicated!
From my perspective, I see that you feel hurt and persecuted and bitterly isolated. I see you’ve been disempowered, and you want to reclaim the autonomy that was denied or taken from you. I hear that you want someone to see you as you are right now, without all of the baggage of “words” and the ideas that come attached to them. Or maybe I’m wrong in my interpretation and you’ve never felt those things before, but I know that I have.
What I don’t understand is who (whom?) you’re trying to rage against amidst the comments of this webcomic. Was “hurtful assumptions……” a reaction to the strip, or a heading for your comment? Like, we here are not your enemies! We’re all just people trying to do our best with what we have, here on this b*ngo of an earth; we’re people who sometimes choose to read a story about some dummies in their late-teen/early-twenties trying to make friends and influence people and touch each other’s butts every once on a while.
I honestly am really sorry that the people in your life that you had to depend on for your care betrayed you. You didn’t deserve that, nobody does. But the whole rest of the world isn’t out to get out you, and I would appreciate it if you stopped lumping all of my neurotypical friends into the same group as “The Evil Autism-Hating System”™ just because of the biology of their brains. Idk, it just really grinds my gears when people are stereotyped for thinking differently than other people.
I don’t think neurotypicals are bad, and don’t automatically lump them in with the ones who profit off of our misunderstanding, those who just want easy ways to make it look like they care about us just for the sake of pity tokens for use in the next election cycle.
Re: hurtful assumptions…, yes that’s just a reaction to the strip, just really hurt that Dorothy is doing this shit behind her back instead of asking Joyce herself how she want’s to be helped and treated.
Besides her dubious condescension and “handling” people like data in spreadsheets in general which may very well be a result of her practicing for professional politics,
just thinking about what she might read on the oh so unquestionable Google, how she might build an entire mental web of fractal wrongness from the misinformation out there, the ways she could hurt someone she cares about, added to her general condescending “compassion”, it’s a recipe for disaster.
“From my perspective, I see that you feel hurt and persecuted and bitterly isolated. I see you’ve been disempowered, and you want to reclaim the autonomy that was denied or taken from you. I hear that you want someone to see you as you are right now, without all of the baggage of “words” and the ideas that come attached to them.”
The illerman, you understand, YES! makes me all the happier. Thank you.
I write what I write because I know what it’s like to fall into these traps the bigots of the world have been setting and solidifying for years.
I don’t want to see others suffer like this. It’s fucking AWFUL. 😩
“Re: hurtful assumptions…, yes that’s just a reaction to the strip, just really hurt that Dorothy is doing this shit behind her back instead of asking Joyce herself how she want’s to be helped and treated.”
I honestly don’t get this. Sometimes the best way to help a person is to give them time by themselves. Sometimes that’s absolute worst thing you could do.
Dorothy doesn’t know how to deal with this situation, so she’s going to do some research on it in order to better help her friend. You could make a fair point (as Sarah does) that she can sometimes view people as projects rather than complicated messy living beings, but her heart is in the right place. And it seems harsh to criticise her for not knowing what to do when her plan seems to be “learn what to do.”
Agree. Adding: This dynamic is out of hand and it *shouldn’t be our responsibility* as a community to repair it. There is no report mechanism or escalation process on this site whatsoever. I understand modding comments is hard, but if it can’t be done, we shouldn’t have comments. That’s my view.
I’m really sorry to you and the rest I triggered with what I wrote up there.
It’s just that I’ve finally found a community, perhaps one of the only on the entire internet, where it’s actually possible to discuss “autism” honestly.
I have firsthand experience with the dark side of the “autism” label, legally-justified torture that ruined my life, that BROKE me, so I realize now that’s why I feel especially compelled compelled to overcompensate with comments like this — because my experiences with it are just about totally and completely denied and silenced everywhere else, with the seemingly unquestionable notion that the label is an intrinsic good.
Regardless, I’m REALLY sorry for the stress I’ve caused some readers.
It’s this really ugly part of my I never really wanted to face, that I just tried so hard to keep from bubbling up, but I just can’t do that anymore.
😭😭😭😭
I hate this part of me. I hate how it just leads to me souring moods as I remind people just how unfair and cruel and ugly this world can be. But if I don’t speak out, I feel like I’m submissive, complacent like livestock, so helpless because I know speaking out about it is the first step to stopping the abuse I went through, so guilty and useless for not making a difference in opportunities so few and far between.
This is now, what, three days in a row you’ve posted a long comment apologizing for triggering people?
By no means am I telling you to stop commenting or to stop interacting, and if I were you’d be right to tell me to fuck off.
But perhaps it’s time to examine the way in which you’re doing so, especially since at least once this week several people have told you that they are being made uncomfortable by your comments.
I’m not a moderator (obviously), you can ignore the fuck out of me, that’s your prerogative.
People reading this webcomic and trying to comment/read the discussion on the story are not consenting to being a support system and several people have stated – repeatedly – that it makes them uncomfortable.
The comments section of a webcomic is not an appropriate place for any of this. And if I’m honest, it doesn’t feel like an ‘honest discussion’, Wellerman, because you talk over people a lot.
Apologising doesn’t mean anything if you keep behaving the same way.
Wellerman, I will be a bit blunt because I have tried to talk around this in the past and it hasn’t been successful in getting my message across: the issue is not that you remind people of how unfair the world can be. Many in the comments threads comment on unfairness and injustice they’ve experienced without upsetting others as regularly as you do. The issue is not that you’re lonely and reaching out for connection, either. Many in the comments do that, too. The issue is also not that you speak uncomfortable truths. Lots of commenters here do that regularly. The issue is how you treat others here as you do it.
I am one of those who gets uncomfortable with your behavior. In my case, it is because of 2 main patterns:
1. We as a comment group are not qualified to be your therapists, but you sometimes act as if we are. I’m am not qualified to help someone, from a clinical sense, work through feelings of social isolation, trauma and anxiety. I am absolutely able to provide a sympathetic ear once in a while or companionship, but you are demanding through your actions and behavior more from us than we are qualified to give – and sometimes more than it is safe for another commenter’s mental health for them to give. I understand that you are feeling big feelings. It is even fine to express those big feelings so long as it doesn’t cause splash damage to innocent people. What I have an issue with is when you start putting the responsibility for managing and processing your feelings onto others. I cannot do that for you or teach you how to do that, as that’s where the need becomes professional grade. The comment conversation a few months back when you were really struggling with how isolated you are and were asking others to fix it for you is a good example of that. I am happy to comment on the story, speculate about the plot, or share stories, even to share things that help me, but I can’t fix your problems for you. You have to do that.
2, People attempting to set boundaries with you are met with a pattern of you berating yourself dramatically and publicly. In so doing, you often re-center your trauma and bad feelings, cast yourself as the victim and change the subject away from the transgression. See the last paragraph of the comment I am referring to in this thread for an example. This makes it so the person who was trying to set a boundary feels bad for you and guilty that they caused you such distress. Their misplaced guilt makes them back off and stop trying to set the boundary. And this enables you to you repeat the behavior they tried to set a boundary against, and the pattern repeats. This is a problematic pattern known as DARVO, and I have a lot of experience being on the receiving end of it so I recognize and can put words to it faster than a lot of folks in the comments.
I am going to assume good intentions and assume this is not a conscious pattern on your part. Regardless of whether it’s a conscious pattern, it is still a problem.
It is a problem because people need to be able to set boundaries in relationships. A relationship where only one side gets to set boundaries and the boundaries are whatever that one person wants at the moment is not healthy, but that is the dynamic you are demanding from others with this behaviour pattern.
What we want is not for you to feel terrible and put on a huge “woe is me, I am so terrible, this is why everyone hates me” show when a boundary is established or when you overstep. What we want is behavior change and learning. Someone establishing a boundary with you doesn’t necessarily reflect on you, it can just as easily be their own needs and comfort. For example, if a coworker of mine gets upset with me for eating a peanut butter sandwich near him because he is allergic, I am not a villain, I was just ignorant, and now my ignorance has been corrected. I apologize, take my sandwich elsewhere, finish my lunch and wash my hands and make a mental note to not eat peanuts near him again. He neither needs nor wants me to beat myself up all day about it, all he needs is for me to keep it away from him, which is easy for me to correct and do moving forward. Social boundaries are often the same thing, just the need often isn’t immediately obvious like an allergy is.
As an addendum: The above comment does not mean I want you to stop setting your own boundaries or behave as a doormat. I do want you to start respecting others’ boundaries by changing your behavior when they ask you to stop doing something that’s harming them. It is possible to both assert your own needs and boundaries and be respectful of others’.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write out this thoughtful reply. It really captures a lot of what I’ve been feeling reading the comments lately.
I am pretty sure the comments here are moderated. At times people have been warned. At times trolls have disappeared, never to be seen again. It isn’t necessary to report comments when Wilis reads them too.
I wonder if that’s meant to be a bit of a meta-arc, that the pre-timeskip band falls apart after Mike’s death only to reunite years later to finally kill the clown in the sewers. Walky’s changed dramatically over the timeskip, Ethan literally left the comic, Jennifer is Jennifer now and has her own spinoff series where she’s a radio host in Seattle with her quirky mafia boyfriend, and everyone seems to becoming much worse people (especially Walky, whose obliviousness towards Lucy is starting to feel like intentional)
I don’t think it’s fair to say that they’re becoming worse people; it’s more like they’re having growing pains. They’re all learning new things about each other and themselves and the world, their lives are changing fast and they’re changing faster; of course there’s going to be mistakes and conflicts and regrettable behaviors. College is where you make all your bad decisions so you know not to make them in the future.
I’ll admit some significant discomfort with the last few punchlines, reading as a neurotypical person who thought a lot of the stuff being said by the characters RN was ableist. Doesn’t help that the whole friend group’s taking potshots at each other so it’s not exactly a supportive environment atm.
Usually DoA is good about telegraphic supportive vs. negative behavior, but I feel pretty totally lost here. In a way that I really have no idea where this arc is going.
I am ADHD, probably autistic and I’m actually fine about with it, Dina’s reaction to Becky’s 30 min diagnosis read to me that she wasn’t angry about it, just that it brought up her trauma which made her angry and Joyce taking it personally is a mood.
A lot of these joke are the kind of jokes my friends and I throw at each other, Now Sarah here does come off as a bit abelist but I’m not sure if that’s a problem with the comic… but yes I do understand the world through books and stories, and they help me parse alltistic interaction and neurodiverse empowerment.
Oh, I missed yesterday’s strip… okay did I mention I’m an ADHDer?
Yeah Sarah for sure is being a big jerk, but still the books comment kinda rung kinda true.
It’s very common for Autistic girls in particular to look to social role models it could be the cool girl in class, or the cool girl on TV or the cool girl in a book.
Of course it doesn’t have to be a girl role model, and it’s not limited to autistic girls and women… but yeah! Books!
Yeah, I agree with you on Dina’s reaction too, she was just frustrated because of Joyce’s ignorance of systematic racism, that she lacked the experience and imagination to absorb what she was being told, because surprise surprise her sheltered ultra-conservative upbringing, right?
BTW sorry if I caused you stress with my above comments, I have serious trauma related to systematic bigotry, systematic ableism, still learning like everyone how to process hard things.
Neat to know that you’re an ADHDer.
I’m neuro-fluid. That means I can wake up one day and feel more like “ADHD” one day, some of the many kinds of combinations of neurodivergent stripes called “autism” the next, and even neurodivergences that don’t even have names yet on some days too!
It’s not that widely recognized, but I hope it does one day.
I’m not sure she was angry at Joyce at all… Cause I have moments of that where I get angry at the people in my past because of something a friend says and I just flare up (and I’m not an angry person by nature)… But she’s talking to Joyce. I don’t think she’s angry that Joyce isn’t aware of her stuggles just that Joyce triggered that trauma.
But I’m also white, I hit some other intersections, and come from a conservative family. So maybe some of it is anger at Joyce’s ignorance.
I feel like my ADHD and (presumed) Autism are in a battle… and then usually I’m combined ADHD, but under stress I become full inattentive and when I’m on an emotional high I become fully interactive.
But often I will find myself at moments where my desire to stick to the letter of a rule and my desire to quickly get something done with the least hastle but heads and I become frozen until I rule with one side or the other.
I don’t know if I’d call that fluid I think my ADHD is generally more dominant, but I get not always being the same.
I didn’t read most of your other posts I just focused on this one cause I wanted to give a ND response to Tom.
“There’s such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I’m such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn’t be half so interesting.” –Anne of Green Gales, 1907
I’m curious. Does your handedness change based upon your fluidity?
I’ve noticed that when I’m at my most analytical, I’m suddenly right-handed for basic, non-learned, tasks.
I’m always and legit right handed, that’s not one of my intersections. Dunno about the Wellerman, but hyper, inattentive or analytical modes don’t seem to change anything there.
Honestly I’m reading Dorothy’s response not as, “No, I cannot be autistic and my proof is that I understand people,” but as, “The only reason YOU’RE saying I’m autistic is because you think I don’t understand people.”
Dorothy has had a lot of people insult her socialization skills, usually implying that the reason is that she doesn’t understand people. That seems to be immensely frustrating for her, and she clearly disagrees. Whatever issues she has talking with other people, they are not because she doesn’t GET people. It’s easy for her to assume that’s what Sarah’s basing this off of. (I’m pretty sure Sarah’s said something to that effect before.)
Like your friend keeps teasing you and saying you have a crush on Ed Sheeran, and one day she says “Ohhh, Reader LOVES redheads!” and you snap ” I don’t like Ed Sheeran, okay??”
Not because you think everyone who likes redheads likes Ed Sheeran, or that Ed Sheeran is the only redhead. Because you’re familiar enough with your friend to know she’s only got one piece of evidence for her claim and that evidence is fake.
Yeah, I also really think Dorothy’s statement at the end is really just about this conversation pushing her buttons like the RA contest did. She hates to be “accused” of not being good with people, because that’s a big part of her self-image. And if she isn’t charismatic or insightful, how could she possibly hope to compete as a politician?
Yeah that rings true too, I am also I think good with people but there’s also some big “blind spots,” I have.
I like talking with people and hearing their stories, and helping them but there are times when it’s hard for me to be succinct, or realize when it’s unwise to say something… I’m not as weak in that area as some other people in my family but it’s a weakness.
And I think a couple years ago I would take major offense to that shortcoming being generalized as “not understanding people.” And heck I still beat myself up for my failures in that regard, but intellectually I understand.
Yeah. I’ve been trying to figure out how to phrase that and here you’ve gone and done it for me. Thanks. 🙂
And given that Sarah follows it up with the line about reading books about people, Dorothy’s not wrong.
That doesn’t actually mean Sarah’s wrong either – Dorothy does have these troubles and it’s very possible she’s on the spectrum or otherwise neuro-divergent, but a lot of people see to be taking those two lines almost entirely out of context to reach “Dorothy thinks she can’t be autistic because she understands people”.
There’s social perception, but then there’s also relationship-preferences (eg Autistics of my poketype often prefer one or only a couple of friendships of quality over a higher quantity, prefer socialising one-or-one or in very particular sets of people). Plus “appropriateness” of tone of voice/expression.
I think she’s probably the most likely to be neurotypical out of…. pretty much the entire cast… But I maintain my headcannon 😛
Hi all, an EFL teacher here.
if a student of mine wrote this, I’d have corrected Sarah to say “I wouldn’t be surprised if you WERE on the spectrum”
Any thoughts on this, dear native speakers?
The traditional subjunctive is in decline, and has been longer than I’ve been alive.
Unless your students are going to be marked down on an important test, or intend to get a job in journalism or law, I’d advise them to say “If I was” like most people do.
If they ARE going to be marked down etc I’d say “This is the way the test likes it, but it’s a bit old-fashioned now and most people say it this other way. If you get the sort of English-language job that has a style guide, you should at that point check the style guide and follow it.”
And I say this not just as somebody who does use the traditional English subjunctive, but also uses “whom” in casual conversation. I’ve even caught myself saying “At whom are you barking?” to my dog, which is doubly ridiculous as he’s deaf and can’t understand me anyway.
I’m not entirely certain if this is because I’m simply pretentious or if it’s because, like many autistic individuals, I have a great difficulty in switching register* and I was raised by (pretentious) over-educated members of the broader autistic phenotype.
Could go both ways.
* I am convinced that this is a much more serious language-related disability than anybody else seems to think. People are inclined to laugh it off, or even take pride in it, but you don’t make many friends this way!
Sorry, third comment but I’ll leave you alone after – I bothered to re-read the comic after posting, not before, and note that Sarah uses a conjunction, “you’re”. This usage is so utterly unremarkable that it took me several reads to spot it. If you start listening to NPR or watching C-SPAN you’ll no doubt hear it, over and over again, from educated people who are speaking carefully.
I would say “If you were,” but I’m autistic and even in my 30s get people telling me I talk too much like a book (weirdly I write much less formally than I speak). So, take it with a grain of salt.
Fellow ESL teacher here. “If you were” is absolutely correct.
Side note: I don’t understand people’s inclination to mangle tenses or anything else. I’ve developed my ear for correct usage more by reading exhaustively, but usually I have to teach things like that with direct instruction.
I know it’s correct, it’s THE textbook correct usage of the grammar. The question is, how much is the mingled tense (I wouldn’t be surprised if you *are*) seen as sloppy usage. Should I tell my students about it (we’re in Germany, btw), or should I let them live in the false security that there are still some valid rules in this world 😀 ?
(One of my mantras is “natives are allowed to do anything – YOU have to learn the rules, though”)
Prescriptive English grammar is actively wrong about a lot of things.
What they should learn depends on their intended use of English.
In this particular case, I don’t think even native speakers laboring under the delusion that prescriptive rules are true would notice the use of indicative with the conditional in spoken language. I didn’t notice it reading the comic, and the use of subjunctive is something I grew up with before even learning that some people said it’s an important rule.
Mmm … “If you were” is in context not correct. This is one of those conditionals in which a whole clause has been ellipted: in this case the irrealis clause, which refers not to Dorothy’s location on the spectrum but to a future hypothetical event, viz. Sarah’s coming to certain knowledge of that location. “I wouldn’t be surprised if I learned that you’re on the spectrum.”
Seems like a mixing of
“If you were”
“That you are”
Now subjunctive English is hard to wrap my head around, but I get the sense that Sarah’s usage is common if wrong. It’s the “if” that makes it subjunctive? I think most people hear “were” as past tense as opposed to subjunctive-y.
As a fellow ESL teacher, I regard proper English as being English your audience understands. Most native speakers would be completely fine with either “you are” or “you were”, for reasons others stated above. Às such, I would actively avoid making such a correction in 99% of teaching situations where students don’t bring it up.
What if “you’re” stood for “you were”? 😛 I suppose that’s not common usage, though. Anyway, I think “you are” is still considered ungrammatical by prescriptivists, but this is dialogue, which is pretty much expected to involve a few grammatical lapses. Internet comments are a completely different case, where it’s no holds barred on corrections! (I mean, it’s still not POLITE, exactly, but it’s socially acceptable. Probably.)
but this is dialogue, which is pretty much expected to involve a few grammatical lapses.
It is a basic principle of linguistics that, barring momentary disfluencies or serious language-related disabilities, adult speakers do not make errors in their native speech variety.
Alright, but? A very quick Google search can help point her in the right direction. If you know that you Don’t Know something, but you don’t entirely know what it is you Don’t Know, you can’t automatically know where to start looking for the resource that will help you stop Not Knowing. Gotta start somewhere, and the little rectangle in your pocket with the magic knowledge bar isn’t exactly the worst place to start.
Part of the issue with Google is that the first few results are poisoned (IE: Organizations like Autism Speaks who think autism is something to be cured/eradicated instead of, y’know, actually letting autism spectrum people speak). Checked it out myself and uh, yeah. Not great on that front. Would not recommend.
I understand that this is an entirely natural thing for someone to do – You find out your friend is going through something, you try to figure out ways you can help or at the very least have a vague idea of what that thing actually is. It just so happens that said thing’s first few hits are not great for the current situation.
And for those thinking Dorothy is too smart to trust information from these dubious anti-autistic sources: If she has the relevant information, sure she is! But right now, she doesn’t and that’s where the apprehension is coming from.
I also laughed at Sarah’s comments. I understand why it rubs a lot of people the wrong way, buutt….
I literally learned how to understand people by reading about them and *actually* studying them like animals all through school (and now officially at uni). Dorothy walking around with a notebook of things about the people in her immediate environment is me.
As much as some people make fun of it, actually studying people and reading about how people actually work rather than how they think they work can be pretty fucking helpful.
It’s not necessarily helpful at mimicking people, but understanding them, yes.
I think Sarah and Dorothy are noticing that Joyce is feeling isolated and they might have caused some of that strain and are sniping at each other out of guilt.
Easier to be mean to each other than consider your own place in a situation
Having an absolutely atrocious day so I’m here early again
Not much to say
I’m willing to give both Dorothy and Sarah the benefit of the doubt here i guess
There’s a massive fucking scorpion in my kitchen which is unironically cool
I’ve played too much Fallout. Radroaches are huge and annoying, but at least they don’t burrow underground and then literally stab me in the back like radscorpions.
Pretty much this. I’m taking Sarah here as saying (in her jerky Sarah-y way) “Hey, this might match you, I wouldn’t be surprised, have you ever thought about this?” And I do think Dorothy is hearing the same ‘You don’t understand people, you just memorize facts from lists and folders’ crap from last semester. Which isn’t a great phrase on how autism works (again, plenty of autistic people understand people just fine – they may or may not struggle with social cues but that’s a bit different), but I’m guessing she’s massively oversimplifying in her annoyed push back at what she’s hearing.
Dorothy has many, many talents and where she’s arguably a genius. Understanding *people* is not one of them. She has a lot of brainpower and has to devote a lot of bandwidth to understanding even her designated criteria about them, which sometimes misses other aspects of humanity that come to others through natural observation.
Yeah, this is exactly why her dream of becoming a President will fail. She just doesn’t have the natural Scam Artist skills necessary for the political career.
For those looking for better metaphors… there is only one electromagnetic spectrum, but there are many intersecting color gamuts. Also, what this “understanding people” thing is? Is it like, that thing school of fishes do, when everybody blindly turns and swims and make figures at high speed? Or like that thing with floks of birds? Is it to follow the crowd or to follow the leader? Because it is obvious that the leader must be different… So the “nomal people” tends to follow a “divergent mind”?
I don’t think “understanding people” means conforming, necessarily. I mean, it usually does when neurotypicals say that we’d get on better if we understood people, but it’s not what it really means, and I don’t think it’s what Sarah and Dorothy are using it tomean.
(In the “follow the leader” scenario, it’s the leader who understands people, because otherwise he wouldn’t be able to get them to follow him. If the followers really understood people, they’d probably figure out what was going on.)
So when Joyce makes a snarky comment about Dina being a ” Robot girl” its bad and Joyce is being ableist, but if Sarah snarks about Dorothy’s brain being a spreadsheet and making not one but TWO comments about them ” Not understanding people” its just Sarah meaning well…?
Autistic people being robotic is a stereotype, that’s where that came from. Granted I’m not autistic but I’ve never heard of a spreadsheet being used for the same stereotype. Now, Sarah does connect Dorothy’s intense need for organization and her using that to help guide her interactions with people to this being more intuitive which is stereotypical, but I’ve never heard any kind of CALLING someone(‘s brain) a spreadsheet as a stereotype.
Dorothy is the one who specifically brought up not understanding people though.
Flipping past all the Dorothy hating comments to say what I was going to say before I read them.
Dorothy is so much more mature than I was at that age. I love that she acknowledges she may not know how to support her friend and wants to be careful before trying. I would have jumped right in and possibly said hurtful things with the best of intentions.
Yeah, Dorothy can do nothing right by some people lol, she’s going to google to try and understand, so Sarah makes a rude comment about it, and even ends with a mean dig at “Sure you do, you read enough books about us” Like Dorothy is incapable of understanding anyone without reading a book.
Dorothy’s well of patience and attempt to understand runs deeper than mine that’s for sure :I
There are people who will wave off a character’s shitty behavior because they like said character. There are people who will snipe about a character’s shitty behavior because they don’t like said character.
The characters that “can do no wrong” and the characters that “can’t do anything right” slap fest is annoying. That’s one of the main reasons why I very sparsely comment here and most of the time just skip the more…annoying commenters. I use “annoying” for lack of a better word.
Like some people just refuse to admit their blind spots or biases because it’s a perceived attack on them as a person. Granted, it depends on the criticism but even the more tame ones gets met with such hostility.
I’m not saying that people can’t have a “favorite” or not like a certain character. But to go to such lengths as (quite a few) commenters here? Exhausting.
I’m not so sure, but a person can be obsessive just because it’s obsessive and not because is in a spectrum. Right? Sarah is generalising a lot, even her tendency to be alone can be a part in the spectrum or just a part of her without anything else involved. But I’m confused about all this very much.
I think Sarah’s snipe at the end making fun of Dorothy’s insistence on using research to try to understand her friends brings up a good point. Mean and unproductive, but itdoes touch on a problem Dorothy has: Dorothy is trying to find general academic solutions to her friends’ problems rather than getting input from her friends.
@willis — I’m not on Twitter but I wanted to mention that I think John Scalzi at whatever is an excellent template to follow for comment moderation. I often ask myself WWSD (what would scalzi do). (Feel free to delete for being off topic—I’d tweet but…no Twitter).
Hijacking this because I don’t want to comment on twitter, but also because I just read Scalzi’s ‘Moderation Matters’ post and 100% agree with it.
I personally am *very glad* to have come back to see some comments deleted. Whilst inclusivity is important, imo it should not come at the cost of everyone else being too uncomfortable to participate.
Even before the new report comment plug-in (which is VERY cool and I’m happy to see it), Willis has usually been good about deleting really awful stuff when he sees it (though obviously parenting responsibilities mean that can take a while). Sometimes he leaves them up if there’s been good rebuttals or discussion from it but a lot of vile stuff’s been spam foldered over the years. That said, as Willis said, sometimes there’s a huge deluge of ‘individually they’d be fine but all together’ comments that are harder to decide case by case or there’s comments that may not be malicious (and so may be heavier handed just outright deleting them) but make the comment section more awkward to deal with for a lot of people because I’m guessing most of us aren’t therapists. One offs are one thing but when there’s a lot, again, it becomes harder case by case. Hopefully this report plug-in will help with that.
And then of course there are miscreants like myself, who see a shiny new button and feel a very strong urge to mash it like it’s the Metal Gear Solid 4 microwave hallway scene (look it up). Wouldn’t actually do it, but….
Oh I completely understand why this was difficult for him to deal with compared to other, more black and white instances. But I am very glad to see the report feature.
Same. I think this is a good way to handle issues like this – Willis gets to keep the comments open, which he’s said is very important to him, but it gives us a tool to handle issues in the comment section while Willis is busy with other things. If he decides the post is okay, he can approve them at his leisure. Seems like the most elegant solution.
I have compared Dorothy to Twilight Sparkle before, and I related to Twilight long before I started to suspect I was autistic and got diagnosed. Not saying I like what Sarah and Dorothy are saying here, but it seems likely.
To be fair, when the creator of a webcomic is likely autistic, and they write what they know and put aspects of themself in their characters, they’re a good chance a lot of those characters might end up having some autistic traits.
I think that’s why I like writing fics about my Star Trek Online characters. They’re not autistic, they’re aliens! (Ferengi captain, Klingon first officer, Andorian helmsman and tactical officer, Pakled engineer who breaks the stereotypes.)
That’s news to me. Isn’t she still updating there stupid wizard website and saying weird nonsense like “Um actually, all the wizards at Hogwarts just shit themselves all day and use a vanish potion on the shit, it’s not weird, don’t say it’s weird.”?
Yeah, she got cancelled so hard that she’s still making stuff at a steady rate and hasn’t faced any serious consequences at all. So effective, all that yelling on Tweeter has been.
It’s a fuckin’ shame, because I just got done rewatching those wizard movies yesterday, and they’re still really charming. She really had something there, and she shoulda just stuck to it instead of going off the rails and deciding People Like Me should be eradicated.
If only. It’s been weakened, but it’s not gone yet. Think of her as Grima Wormtongue before Gandalf arrived; our goal is to make her more like Grima Wormtongue during the Scouring of the Shire.
This is a really rough sketch because as a spectrum it manifests in a lot of ways, but generally autism refers to born traits and a lack of certain automatic social instincts that are inbuilt to other people.
Autism is not acquired, it’s inborn. It’s been there since the moment the autistic first came into the world, and it’s colored all of their interactions ever since. That’s also the problem with the idea people used to have of “freeing” autistics from their “shells”; we don’t have shells, there isn’t some pretty little neurotypical hiding inside who just needs your help to spread their pretty little butterfly wings and flit off into the world. The process of trying this instead works out more like stripping the skin off of a snake in the utter conviction that it’s really a caterpillar that just needs to grow a chrysalis.
I’d say that phenomenon is caused at least in part because when autism came to the table and became popularized, it was through programs that wanted to garner help and plead the case of autism as being such a significant problem. But in doing so, they pushed Low Functioning Autism Kids as the poster child, and made it seem like that’s just what autism was.
Also, the internet needed a new word to slap onto people after the previous one became labeled a slur and use of it gets looked down on enough to disincentivize people from using it, as happens about once a decade. I won’t be entirely surprised if Autism becomes a slur by time 2033 rolls around. Though maybe not, unlike a lot of other words autism has a lot of momentum from other uses.
I fully admit, it does feel a lot like Sarah’s just straight up using autism as an insult here. She’s likely being sincere, but that sincerity shows an extreme lack of understanding what autism is. Being a bookworm isn’t the same at all as being autistic, and I haven’t read Dorothy as being autistic except in the most superficial of ways. Unlike Dina who immediately reads that way, and Joyce where I go “Yeah, I totally see it.”.
Even though yes, autistic people can and sometimes do acquire a better understanding of people than neurotypical people through study.
Yeah, people are being a bit far too charitable to Sarah’s rather rude, and downright meanspirited comments, she smirks as she comments that Joyce doesn’t understand how people work due to possibly being autistic, then snips that Dorothy’s probably autistic because her minds a spreadsheet and she only reads about humans to understand them.
It’s like she found a new thing to be mean with and is enjoying using it on her friends for some reason.
I could see Dorothy being autistic but she’s the kind that would absolutely be missed by some psychologists for coming across too socially normal by having observed and learned from others over the years.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but the general emotional state of the comments section isn’t typically on my mind when I make a jokey remark. I’m just a slave to impulse, and 99/100 times, that impulse is to be a wiseacre. Or to make some chocolate milk, if it’s sunny out.
You know, on a second read, and setting aside Who’s Being The Bigger Ableist Here, Actually, this is a really interesting exchange between Sarah and Dorothy, because look at the progression of their faces! Sarah is smiling, in panel three—maybe it’s fond approval of Dorothy’s helping instincts; maybe because she’s pleased to have a friend she knows well enough to successfully predict her reaction here, maybe a little of both. It’s only as the subsequent exchange goes wrong that the smile drops away and ends up replaced by an eye roll and a dismissive comment.
I think she genuinely meant no insult when she suggested Dorothy has traits that might also map to the spectrum, and she’s taken aback when Dorothy reacts negatively to it.
Also worth noting Sarah isn’t the one who links autism to being able to relate/not relate to people—it’s Dorothy who makes that leap! Which is certainly suggestive of how Dorothy currently thinks of autism (negative, a lack of something important/good, not a condition or identity she wants to be associated with herself even if she can support a friend dealing with it) and also makes sense with, as many people have pointed out above, her insecurities about her charisma/popularity, or lack thereof. (Of course, Sarah does then immediately insult her on that front, but she’s not the one who brought it up initially.)
I think Sarah’s snappishness there at the end may be coming from a place of surprised hurt; she thought she was having a conversation with a friend, and it turned unexpectedly, albeit mildly, hostile. No matter how much Sarah likes to claim the mantle of “cranky introvert,” she clearly has some trauma/insecurities related to socializing and making and keeping friends, and I think Dorothy’s negative reaction to what was intended as a benign observation tripped them.
Honestly that was my interpretation of the strip too! It’s not great form to armchair diagnose, sure, but it didn’t honestly feel like Sarah was being malicious when suggesting that Dorothy might be on the spectrum too and only started getting annoyed when Dorothy took such offense.
I think the question is did Dorothy make the leap from autism to not understanding people or from spreadsheet to not understanding people? She’s used a spreadsheet to help keep track of people before and she’s been sensitive about her ability to connect to people as well.
It also seems from Sarah’s response that she’s not far off on what Sarah was thinking.
I think there’s a meaningful distinction between “your brain is a spreadsheet” (figurative statement) and “you keep spreadsheets about people” (literal, accurate), and that Sarah both said and meant the former, and Dorothy could have understandably parsed it as a reference to the latter.
I like that the “Report comment” link turned into “moderated”, so manually approved comments can’t get brigaded back into the moderation queue endlessly.
Is it possible to allow users to turn the feature on and off individually their end, like a single “Report a comment” button at the very bottom of the site?
Also sorry that I keep reporting YOUR comments by accident too Willis, really don’t mean to, SO SORRY for all this trouble I’m causing! 😖
First off, thank you for this EXCELLENT comic strip!
I think I just accidentally “Reported” your comment, because I was trying to reply to it. I’m getting the two links mixed up all the time, again and again, whether on a laptop or on a phone. Just always.
I’m also accidentally hitting “Report” whenever I’m scrolling with a touchscreen on a phone.
Maybe “Report” could go at the *bottom* of the comment, to distinguish it from the “Reply” button, which has always gone up top? And… maybe something typographic to distinguish it from “Reply”, like bolding, or italics, or an underline, or a different shape or something? Changing text color or highlighting won’t always work because that messes with high-contrast displays and other adaptive software, but something to make the word “Report” look different, or to distance it spatially from the “Reply” button, would help a lot, I think.
What does understanding people even entail? I wouldn’t say I understand people at all really, but as far as I’m aware, I’m *probably* neurotypical? I’m not honestly convinced most people understand people, really.
Anyway, it’s not great form to armchair diagnose, so shame on you, Sarah.
Hey, this “report comment” thing is new. Did we finally overwhelm our benevolent monarch, or was it part of a CMS update anyway and the timing just happened to work out?
Any way to make it not one-click, though? I clicked it next to one of my own comments by mistake and there wasn’t any confirmation prompt.
A lot of comments had to do with someone having personal problems relevant to the strip but it kind of overwhelmed a lot of discussion. This is not the first time it’s happened – there’ve been issues over the past week or so of someone starting fights in the comment section because of strong personal issues with a relevant character being related to it. So Willis added a report plug-in so we could report comments and, if he deems them appropriate, he can re-add them at his leisure. If not, he can remove them. This means he can take more time to think through on-topic but overwhelming comments that aren’t clear cut ‘taking this shit down immediately’ comments rather than having to come down heavy handed and take it down or leave it to the commenters to deal with until he takes it down.
Yeah, I’m REALLY REALLY sorry that I turn out to be causing even more trouble like this. 😢😢😢
I actually tweeted him about this because I keep hitting the “Report comment” button with my big thumbs on mobile, and I have a feeling that I’m not the only one who feels like a bull in a china shop. 😖
In any case, it always pays to make an interface physically accessible as possible to the diverse user-base:
Armchair diagnosing seems problematic :/ I think Dorothy isn’t the type to let that stuff get to her, though. Heck, she might even decide to do some introspection and realize maybe she should be a little less analytical in her approach to interpersonal relationships. Not super likely just from this moment, though.
Honestly, am I the only one who doesn’t see this interaction as that big a deal? Like, I’m not sure, but it seems to largely be a humorous comic with maybe some serious edge. I don’t think Sarah’s being awful and ableist and I don’t think Dorothy, either. At least, I don’t think so. I think people read a *Iot* into dialogue that is often simply a little exaggerated as a conceit of being a dramedy webcomic with weekly punchlines.
Yeah I feel the same, it’s just a comic. If everyone was perfect and sensitive and handled every situation with grace there would never be any drama. That being said I think Sarah is on thin ice here with regards to Dorothy’s fatal flaw.
I had to help a group of senior citizens use an Interface on their phones once and they just couldn’t; their fingers trembled too much. So I got a bunch of pens with stylus tips on them and it helped a lot. I mention that because now Report is easy to hit when you meant Reply
Oh yes, that is happening to me constantly, even when I use the mouse. “Reply” is what I intend, and “Report” keeps getting clicked instead since they’re right next to each other. I’ll mention it higher up in reply to Dave Willis’s comment so he sees it.
You don’t trigger me, The Wellerman. I just feel concerned for your wellbeing.
I also feel uncomfortable being asked questions about myself, just FYI. I wasn’t going to say it, but now that we are having a conversation about boundaries, it’s better that you know that about me. I don’t like being asked questions about myself. To me, it feels unsafe — not just from you, but from everybody who asks me questions online. Just because of my own personal experiences.
I’m trying to learn to set boundaries by not sharing too much about myself online, too. It’s a learning process.
Thank you for asking, The Wellerman. No, anything that you ask to the group as a whole, (“What songs do you like?” “What’s your favorite mac n cheese recipe?” etc.) that’s totes fine, because I can pick and choose whether to answer, as can anybody else. It’s just when there’s a reply to my comment directly that is a direct question to me personally, I feel a little singled out and uncomfortable.
And that’s not a reflection on you! It’s not YOU who is making me feel uncomfortable. I want to be clear that this is all just about MY own experiences and what makes ME feel safer.
So really, this is just me asking for an accommodation, for my own uniqueness.
Also, just so long as we’re being open and up-front about where our boundaries lie, I also feel uncomfortable being given compliments or statements of fondness, like “you’re one of my favorite humans on this site,” etc.
I’m not trying to single you out, NG. I appreciate you, and I appreciate all the other commenters too.
It’s just — for folks who have some experience with “love bombing”, being given compliments and statements of fondness online can set off feelings of being unsafe. So I guess that part is a little triggering.
Also, there’s some algorithm that’s been sending me nightmarish, disgusting, violent images that pop up on every device, regardless of how many times I empty the cache and clear all cookies, unless I turn off Javascript and cookies altogether. It started here, but now the popups follow me to every comic I visit.
I must have accidentally clicked on something while scrolling, and one of those persistent trackers must have learned my IP address and latched on to follow every device on the network. It feels like being stalked online.
So without Javascript or with very strong adblocking protection, I can read comics in peace, but whenever I’m on a cell phone or a device without that protection, I get the jump scares.
This has nothing to do with YOU, of course, NG! But it does provide some context as to why I feel more easily frightened than usual online.
Ugh, that sounds horrible. I’ve just been getting an occasional full-screen popup of Richard Simmons when I go to this comic on my phone, and that’s annoying enough. I hope you’re able to get rid of that somehow.
Oh, geez, Dorothy. It feels like she’s angrily telling Sarah she can’t be autistic because she understands people. It feels like she took a genuine comment(which… I don’t think Sarah was trying to be nasty, just making an observation) and parsed it, the idea that she could be autistic, as an insult.
“Understanding people” doesn’t make one neurotypica,l over autism spectrum, by itself.
Having Asperger’s myself, which is about at Joyce and Dorothy’s level of functioning, I’m pretty sure it would depend on whether she learned to ‘understand people’ with the same neurotypical ‘herd instincts’ that having something like Asperger’s means you lack, or she had to learn it like she learned all her other academic subjects….
The latter would mean Sarah had a point, and she might want to consider actually checking herself first before humoring Joyce’s doctor.
HINT HINT: If the top joints of her pinky fingers are naturally bent toward toward the rest of the hand, they might have Asperger’s.
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Yo, Sarah’s kind of a jerk.
I swear I feel most of the cast post time skip have had a +1 to their jerkness stat.
Yeah. A lot of the characters really show a lack of understanding of others in one way or another and that really has amped up. Mind you, they’re all still pretty fresh off a number of traumatic events so it’ll be interesting to see how they handle it in the future.
Maybe they’re just now in the post honeymoon phase of the friendship. Nobody has to try as hard cause it’s been a few months and everyone kind of knows what each other’s deal is.
I agree. And it seemed to me that Dorothy was about to add, “and they are all terrible, especially you.”
“A lot of the characters really show a lack of understanding of others in one way or another.”
Aren’t we lucky real life isn’t like that?
Humans … what amazes me, is that like 90% of adults drive cars, and accidents are as rare as they are. I grant you that society took awhile to come up with rules and training and equipment for that which work with actual humans, but still. It’s amazing. I wouldn’t have thought humans were capable of it.
I feel it’s more that they’ve all started to understand things about each other that they don’t like, and don’t quite have the maturity to be tactful or tolerant of each others faults yet.
Winter does that to people. Also, everyone’s kinda effed up from the whole ordeal last fall.
Yep, every one should be getting intensive therapy for what they went through a few months ago their time, several years ago our time, particularly Becky who saw her father die in front of her.
Amber also needs a few hundred hours of therapy for her abusive father getting murdered, and for the damage she suffered as a result of that abuse.
Also, being 18-19 years old does that to people. Worth remembering that these folks are all “adults” only in the technical, legal sense of the word – they’re, excepting the ex-grad students and RAs, all still teenagers, with all that implies in terms of emotional maturity and neurological development.
Mike contained most of the jerkness within him. Now it is free to spread.
I think Willis has dialed down the unlikely level of continuing violence that marked the first ten years of the strip. As a result, he’s focusing on the humor of interpersonal dynamics of a group of college underclassmen (plus a few sorta adults). That means more minor squabbles and misunderstandings, done humorously. Plus more serious conflicts and issues, because Willis does make use of the drama tag.
Honestly isn’t that just normal Sarah?
I mean they’re all coping with some pretty deep trauma.
Yo I flagged this comment by accident, it’s late and the text is very small on my monitor
But anyway, yeah they’re Teens, AND in college. Most of them are gonna be low-grade sleep deprived and stressing about grades or sexuality or self-discoveries or others’ self-discoveries, several of them are still dealing with trauma, and it’s not physically possible to be mindful of one’s words at literally all times.
Mike didn’t die; He was just evenly distributed amongst the main cast.
Everyone except, maybe Danny and Joe.
I’m gonna give some bonus points to Dorothy’s reaction for being kinda Jerky. At least the way the bold text is forcing me to read her emphasis, anyway.
Dorothy’s insinuation that understanding people means she couldn’t possibly be on the spectrum is definitely a bit Jerky. Her self assessment is also biased since she has demonstrated many times where she doesn’t quite understand people as well as she believes.
I read it a bit more like “No, it’s not because I’m autistic, it’s because I understand people, asshole”. People are reading that she’s saying the latter proves the former, and maybe that is what she’s blurting out, but it still feels like the least favorable possible read of the panel.
Agreed, but that seems to be par for the course for how people are interpreting character actions recently
I guess it’s the internet everyone is automatically the worst possible interpretation of their actions instead of being the more typical middle of the road
That all said, Sarah might have a point to some extent but I’d be annoyed too if someone said it like that to me and might blurt out some shit that is worse than I’d say normally
but you know, we haven’t seen a real villain since…
Well even Raidah isn’t a real villain, she can change to be better within a few years so I guess since we’ve seen parents.
So in the absence of villains, everyone is a villain-in-progress.
Asher’s family is a big potential problem.
In other news, water is wet, the Pope is Catholic, and Joyce needs therapy.
The WHOLE CAST needs therapy, but then where would we get all our delicious drama from?
We’re basically Jennifer from this strip: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/capitalh/ If there’s unecessary drama, hook it directly into our veins!
This comic’s has always been about a bunch of characters who are assholes, but Sarah insinuating Dorothy’s autistic to insult her when there’s one and possibly two actually autistic women from their friend circle still within a 50 foot radius is getting dangerously close to the Mary Zone.
It also makes the “Yeah, I’d buy it” response when Joyce revealed the referral seem a lot jerkier. It’s not a supportive comment at all.
Is Sarah using it as an insult? I hadn’t read it that way myself. A bit assumptive and overly personal given that they aren’t very close, sure, but it seemed to me like Sarah was speaking in earnest.
It does seem to me that Dorothy took it as an insult, given how she responded, which makes me wonder how she really thinks of her friends.
Yeah tbh I think Sarah is overstepping her bounds a bit, but Dotty is the real jerk in this exchange.
I didn’t interpret Sarah’s assertion that Dorothy might be “on the spectrum” to be intended as insulting.
I mean, it definitely comes off as a dig, particularly given Sarah’s character. “Huh, you’re super methodical/ detail-oriented/ obsessive, must be on the spectrum haha”… there’s basically no way she said that without knowing it was at the very least impertinent to say. Why did she even need to say it? Because she suspects Dorothy gives enough of a shit to be planning how to support Joyce? I usually feel like Sarah speaks a lot of sense/ her worldview isn’t that out of line with reality, but here, she’s kind of in the wrong for my money.
I’m pretty sure her point was that Dorothy shouldn’t have any problems with supporting Joyce because they share the neurotype in the first place. Which is the opposite of an insult?
Yeah I’m pretty sure it’s not an insult. And Dorothy wasn’t a jerk either? They are just general level of familiar-rude to each other.
*GASP* No way! :O
/s
She’s got a really cool hoody though.
Your spelling of “hoody” instead of “hoodie” offends my fragile sensibilities. Shuffle your deck, there’s only one way to settle this.
hahaha, maybe a little over the line there, Sarah
It also feels a bit weird/unfair that Sarah, the eternal misanthrop who keeps people at arms reach, to say that last line when Dorothy is the one of the two of them that has formed multiple close relationships with people already. Granted Dorothy does have a habit of sometimes abandoning those relationships when it comes to school work but that is not really evidence that she doesn’t know people, just that she can overwork herself and have an unhealthy work life balance at points.
Sarah understands people
that’s why she hates people
Yikes, Dorothy.
You can understand people and be on the spectrum. That’s sorta the concept behind a spectrum. ie. A wide breadth of experiences and habits that are not at all narrowed down to one particular behavior but are loosely associated.
I have difficulty with subtext and reading intentions but I’ve also found that everyone else seems to be just as bad at them regardless of what they think so I’m not sure if I’m on the spectrum or doing some Socrates “I know that I know nothing” shtick.
I used to think I was good at it, eventually realized I was good at making up stories to fit small things I noticed and the truth had nothing to do with it.
I think that was more Dorothy’s annoyance at everyone assuming she is an inhuman goddess than her trying to say “because I understand people I cant be on the spectrum.”
Could be wrong but that’s how I took it.
Why does understanding people make her less of an inhuman goddess?
Yeah. It’s actually more likely in female autistics since they (we?) pay more attention to social cues in an attempt to compensate. That’s part of the reason why women with autism are harder to diagnose.
The same goes for women with ADD and ADHD. Many are hyper organized because putting things in specific places means they don’t have to actually pay attention to where they leave things. Or, say, in spreadsheets.
3 BJ Cat statues betting that those “phew”s won’t last long.
My own support strategem is compiling my zingers for alt-text.
That “So Joyce still doesn’t know?” line from Becks basically confirms to me the comment theory that she expects and probably even wants Joyce to find out secondhand instead of having to tell her. I don’t think the “phews” will be lasting much longer either.
Oh yeah also fitting music, ’cause why not?
*plays “Be Quick or Be Dead” by Iron Maiden* on hacked muzak*
Sarah went for /neg, but I’d been thinking the same thing just /pos
Plap! (NSFW)
Posted this on patreon already but darnit, I really like how this came out.https://imgur.com/a/qAAbtHz (NSFW)
ah dang my link didn’t work.
HEEEEEheheheehehee, delightful. thanks for sharing, love your art!
I approve wholeheatedly, I’d love to be in his place. Lap pillow plus boobs? Sounds like an excellent time to simultaneously rest and be horny.
Those are my 2 favorite things.
That’s almost exactly how I sprained my neck when my GF with the F-cups rolled over and slapped me in the face with her boobs.
😊😊😊😊😊😊
Thank you Yoto, I really needed this. Just too precious and perfect!!!!
😍😍😍
(I wish that were a T-shirt or mug or something)
There are sites where you can make T-shirts, mugs, etc… like Redbubble. You could ask them to set something like that up.
There’s also a little printer-looking machine I’ve seen that you can buy, and all you do is put these special papers in, print off the image you want, and I’m not sure if you cut it yourself or if the machine cuts it, but then you just slap it on the thing it goes on and boom. Custom items. Pretty sure lots of Etsy stores use them, especially the ones that sell decals.
Buying a T-shirt online i cheaper than buying a printer. I have a Redbubble store and the prices are not shocking. Stickers only cost a few dollars on average.
Also there is the issue of copyright. Yoto might be fine with people using his images but maybe not. Support the creators!
Not quite the point, but the words are factually true.
Cute!
Also ouch. Breasts are heavy.
😆 LOL.
Hey, Rose, great to see you here!
You told me you had Discord a day or two ago? What’s that awesome community you’re a part of?
If you’re in it, I’m interested, you seem really cool to me! Care to drop your handle? 🙃
I was just talking to an ex tonight that could plap with the best of them.
This makes me smile more than expected.
Time for the cast to examine more of their biases
Hey, autistic people can understand people! Some struggle with it, but it is a wide spectrum!
That said, yeah, no, I would not be shocked.
I read it more as the implied “you need to use spreadsheets and books to understand people” that she’s objecting to rather than a claim autistic people can’t understand people. It’s been something of a sore point for her in the past, I think.
How does Sarah’s statement about Dorothy’s brain being a spreadsheet imply that Dorothy doesn’t understand people?
There is a tendency among some people with autism to deal with other people by attempting to discover and learn the rules and then to use those rules to deal with other people. And of course that doesn’t really work well because people are complicated.
While I make no claim to autism, it wasn’t until about second grade that I discovered the actual rule to understanding other people was to put yourself in their place. Before that, people were for me and then against me and then for me and it was bewildering and made the world a bewildering place. Afterwards things were much easier.
I make no claim on being normal either. I kind of find normal people boring. Every one interesting, when you get to know them, is weird in some way and often a lot of ways. You’ll notice I count myself almong the interesting. We’re all wierd in different ways and that’s okay. Sometimes labels are useful and often they are not.
Sarah’s comment about Dorothy’s brain being a spreadsheet, refers to Dorothy’s use of lists and spreadsheets and similar aids to memory and thought. Sarah’s implication is that Dorothy needs these because she is dealing with other people through rules and not through actual understanding. Dorothy follows this chain of thought just fine and counters that she understands people, a bit forcefully because this is something she’s thought herself before and rejected. I tend to agree with Dorothy on this one. She uses lists, spreadsheets, outlines and whatnot, not as crutches to help her deal, but because she is compulsive about organization and self organization in particular. It makes her more effective. She does understand people, though she has a tendency to deal with them as things (which they are – it’s just not all that they are).
Now all of this has to be taken with salt, because I’ve been wrong about Willis’s universe before. I’ve even been wrong about the real world. Heck, even mathematics has betrayed me. Two dimensional and three dimensional space are topologically equivalent, and although I completely understand why, it’s still morally wrong on math’s part.
whaaaat.
I wanna see that proof. afaik, flatlanders can’t make five points each connected to every other point by lines that don’t touch.
also the “put yourself in their place” rule never worked well for me, my brain’s too different 😂 most people don’t feel physical pain from certain sounds (heck they can’t even hear a lot of the bad ones), they have vastly different emotional reactions, etc.
It’s more like trying to put myself in the place of someone half-blind, half-deaf and half-numb, with an extra set of social senses that I can only vaguely model, and then I have to plug in whatever their personal values are, which often skew away from truth and/or morality in favour of social status or cohesion.
I still don’t see how you’re getting from “spreadsheet” to “viewing the world as rules and also not understanding people”.
Dorothy is falling prey to stereotypes here, Sarah was insinuating just the opposite – that she’ll understand Joyce just fine.
Yeah, fair enough. Dorothy’s had that issue before.
I am going to try to be charitable here because, to be frank, most neurotypical people make a lot of mistakes out of ignorance when it comes to neurodivergent people, not the least of which being using the term “the spectrum” to begin with, which is something that’s kind of controversial.
That being said, they’re neophytes here. I don’t ask perfection out of them that I wouldn’t ask from Joyce or any of the others who are here, learning, and dropping shitty aspects of who they are or what they believe. I do hope these two approach the topic with humility, ultimately.
What’s wrong with the term “on the spectrum”? First I’ve heard of a controversy, but then it’s about 15 years since I participated in much community so maybe I’m behind the times.
Thank you for being willing to learn, Laura. That means a lot. 😊
(FWIW I’m neuroatypical myself. Doesn’t mean I know anything about the right ways to talk though.)
😃 Hey, didn’t know that about you, nice that I do now!
What stripes or labels you feel comfy with, if any?
Hm. Looks like “neuroatypical” isn’t actually a word. How about “unique”? I like that word. It’s like “special,” only specialer. SUPERspecial! 🙂
Just different. Think different. 😉
😊😊😊 Awe, love that.
I think different too.
Also, I’m fluid, gender-fluid, fluid in sexuality, etc. 🤗
I’m also fluid in neurodivergence too! I can wake up one day and feel more like one of the many combinations that can be called “autism”, then more “ADHD” the next, and sometimes I flow through neurodivergences that don’t even have names yet!
What would you call that? Neuro-fluid?
I really wish that were a validly recognized thing, I really want to connect with others out there who are also this way!!!!
I like “neurofluid” 🙂
I think the common term atm for the opposite of neurotypical is “neurodivergent”?
Yeah, that’s a good one too. Or “neurodiverse”? “Neuroqueer”? Just having fun with ideas…
I know “special” gets a bad rap in the way it’s often used pejoratively, but I do like “special,” just for myself and other such self-identifiers, even though I would never apply that term to someone else unless they wanted me to.
It’s like on the “People of Earth” TV comedy, where the aliens always woke up their abductees by telling them: “You. Are. Special.” Made the abductees feel more accepting of their unique experience and how it gave them community with others who had experienced similar life paths. (No personal connection, I just like the show.)
🥹🥹🥹 thanks
I mean, really widely recognized as a valid thing, like being gender-fluid is.
I definitely feel some degree of neuro-fluidity. When stressed, some of my more stereotypical autistic traits become more intense – largely, I think, because stress makes it harder to mask.
Not that it’s overly important, but “neuroatypical” is a word if English speaking people use it as a word and understand what it means. Not all words make it to the dictionary right away. And some never make it all.
Thanks, all!
Thing is, everyone’s unique – but despite what some who want to downplay our issues will say, not everyone is neurodivergent. (That’s actually kind of impossible, as if they were, it would no longer be a divergence…)
There’s a fellow on TikTok who goes by AHDHEverything, who’s been diagnosed with ADHD for many years and whose therapist believes he’s probably autistic as well, who does some wonderful breakdowns on the entire concept of “everyone’s a little bit ADHD” (and now “everyone’s a little bit autistic”). His videos get kind of salty because he’s annoyed by those folks, but he tries to be friendly and educational.
Ok, yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining that, Jon.
Looks like “neuroatypical” isn’t actually a word.
Why do you say that? It uses common English morphemes, and the meaning is clear. What else do you think is necessary to “actually” be a word?
It’s definitely in usage, but I don’t like it because it looks like “neurotypical” if you don’t look closely
Thanks, Uly and Techhead! I just didn’t know it was actually in usage. I thought perhaps it would get read as just a misspelling of “neurotypical,” so I added another comment for clarification.
Apologies, I shouldn’t have used the shorthand “not actually a word,” — I meant it to self-deprecate my clumsy writing, not to disparage the word itself. Thank you for broadening my understanding!
I’m pretty plugged into some large segments of the austistic self advocacy community but this is the first I’ve hear of “on the spectrum” being in any way problematic.
But I’ve been having trouble keeping up with my tumblr feed with some of my special interests taking the forefront and occupying my time as well as my Adderall helping me do things other than scroll my tumblr feed constantly. So maybe the bloggers I follow have been talking about this and I missed their posts. Or it’s happening in a segment of the population I’m not involved with.
Some people interpret it as meaning “on a spectrum between A Little to Very Very Autistic” when autism doesn’t work in any sort of linear fashion; other people just think it’s weird to have a euphemism.
Yeah, that’s basically what it comes down to, “low-functioning” versus “high-functioning” is what many think of when a spectrum is mentioned, and that’s a really damaging and dated mindset for it, sort of like how Aspergers isn’t a thing anymore for a number of reasons, even if some still cling to it.
I personally don’t take umbrage with spectrum because I think of it as being a representation of varied experiences, but I have a few autistic friends who really can’t stand it.
Oh, wow, thanks!
But… I mean, just playing devil’s advocate — some traits are more disabling than others, in different circumstances and at different times, no? I’m not sure what’s wrong with saying that there’s a broad rainbow of neurological and neurodevelopmental variations in life, and that different traits require different adaptive strategies and supports.
I mean that’s what “on the spectrum” or “spectrum-y” or “spectrum-adjacent” means to me. That we dance with the rainbow.
…But just because I don’t intend any hurt doesn’t mean that my words aren’t hurtful. It’s not the intention that matters, but the effect. So I just want to thank all of you for making the time of have this conversation and to educate me about how my words can be hurtful to others. Thank you.
Hell, we dance on the rainbow. Most days, I don’t need that much support, my coping mechanisms work just fine. And then there are days when I just wake up wrong, or when it’s been a long day and the minor irritants have piled up, or Mercury’s in retrograde or something, and then I lose the ability to do anything more sophisticated than sit under a blanket and listen to music on my headphones.
Hear that!
“The most violent element in our society is ignorance.”
No kidding that I try to stay away from labels like “autism”, ’cause humans and their smol smol brains just can’t help but extrapolate so much HURTFUL stuff about it, stuff that they don’t want to deny if you try to correct it because of pride and shit.
CONSTANTLY trying to correct the so many things they get so so wrong, like running around trying to plug up holes in a sinking ship, got so fucking tired of it, and decided ultimately that the only way to play that game is to stop quitting.
I really really wish for a way I can say “autistic” that just stops their brains from leaning back on the long established pile of baggage out there that’s likely not gonna go away any time soon.
Wishful thinking, yeah I know. But hey, a slick can dream, right? Well I have a dream.
* that the only way to win that game is to stop playing.
Oh wells.
“’cause humans and their smol smol brains”
That’s pretty unnecessarily rude. I understand that you’re dealing with a lot of triggers right now, but please do so without insulting everyone who isn’t a space parasite.
Sorry to those I triggered.
Didn’t intend it as a real insult tho, more like a little snark and spice with a style that’s mine, a way I can escape from reality but also tackle real things.
A lot of people do similar things here, and you’ve seen them, no?
I don’t want to think that you’re deliberately misreading things I write like this in the least generous light, but just please be gentle, OK?
personally I’m kinda irritated by this trend of using “triggered” to mean “mildly irritated”.
people ain’t getting flashbacks from being called smol.
is this gonna be another “literally”, a word that no longer means what I want it to mean?
The word “literally” has been used as an intensifier for hundreds of years, within a few decades of first acquiring its figurative meaning of “true, honest”. (The original meaning is, of course, “of or relating to letters”. When you do algebra and solve for x, you’re doing literal equations.)
When we say something is an intensifier, btw, we do not mean that it “means” the same thing as “figurative”. We simply mean that it’s used to create a stronger meaning of the word it modifies. English has many intensifiers – really, truly, literally, honestly, extremely, awfully, terribly, wicked, mad, hella….
Now that you know that, here’s a question for you: Have you ever said that somebody’s use of “really” isn’t “real” and therefore must be wrong or that this must be a recent innovation and you don’t want it to mean that? If not, why do you think that is?
Maybe you could maybe re-read what you type before you send it? Just to check over things before you say them and consider where it could be insensitive. I’ve been on the outside looking in throughout all your comments on the last few pages and the more I see your name, the less comfortable I get while reading to see everyone’s thoughts. Your feelings are valid, and I empathize, but just because other people do things they shouldn’t, doesn’t give you a pass to act the same. I’d ask others to evaluate their words the exact same way I’m asking you to.
You can be gentle, too.
I offered understanding and said please. I was as gentle as I could be.
When someone tells you that you’re being rude it isn’t okay to say “are you deliberately trying to be?” And then suggest I’m the one not being gentle. Consider the feelings of others BEFORE you hit enter.
Yeah, in all honesty, seeing the “you pitiful inferior humans” thing is getting… grating. The point is made clearly enough without that.
Hey, just in case you didn’t know, “smol”, as far as I know, is used to refer to something tiny in a cute way, like “what a smol puppy”. It’s not used in a disparaging manner; its intent is to highlight how adorable something is because it’s tiny.
Hmmm, thank you human, for wanting to help me get my idea across.
“Puny”…. yeah, has a nice Invader-Zim-like ring to it. Thank you.
Feel free to use that show as a nice tangent for alternate discussion, I think a few of us could really use a break here.
Given the above discussion, I would enthusiastically advocate that you NOT employ “puny” in reference to the intelligence of everyone other than you either… just a suggestion. You’re clearly bothering people with that particular angle, so would you please consider conveying your thoughts without it?
I mean, neurodivergents absolutely tend to flock together. It wouldn’t be surprising if Dina and Joyce weren’t the only autistic people in the comic. But it would be nice for Joyce to have someone to relate to, and it doesn’t seem like Dina is it.
yeah, hella interesting and bizarre we just seem to be drawn towards each other like this, like Stand Users.
Or maybe the motion vector is coming from the other direction, in the form of self-propulsion away from the vast majority of neurotypicals who just don’t seem to understand us that well or sometimes even refuse to.
Maybe both. Sorry if I’m geeking out like this! 😅 I’m a STEM major who really likes physics, often times I intuitively model situations as physics problems like this to see if I can better understand what’s happening.
Here’s hoping Willis shares the, frankly superior version of this strip that was on the patreon. Still laughing at it.
Oh I’ve gotta get the patreon, thanks for reminding me
What was different about it?
It was a joke version of this strip based on someone’s suggestion.
Is it still on Patreon? I wanna see it now…
It is! It’s in the comments, not it’s own post.
Willis posted it on Twitter too. Don’t worry, non-Patreon-having archive trawlers of the future!
https://twitter.com/damnyouwillis/status/1535796909515874305/photo/1
Dorothy’s response is really gross to me, more so than Sarah’s parting barb. (Yes, I’m neurodivergent myself.) Sarah basically says: hey maybe this is relatable to you, you seem to think in a very ordered, hyper focused on detail way, maybe you might also be on the spectrum. Dorothy responds with an immediate rejection, angry enough that her words are bolded, and those words basically drip contempt: I understand people. I understand people, I’m not like those socially clueless, somewhat alien autistic people. Sarah never said anything about her lacking empathy or understanding, she just said her organized thought processes could be a sign of autism. Dorothy jumped straight to defensive anger about being seen as socially maladjusted, taking insult to being accused of being autistic. Nice.
It’s a shame she feels that way.
But it may be the start of a fascinating plotline where she realizes it’s been influencing her handling of things like the Presidency and maybe also her emotional happiness like that one time she got drunk and admitted she doesn’t know how to be happy.
Yeah interesting that Dorothy was so “it’s not going to change how we see you” to Joyce, but bristles so immediately at the implication SHE might also be neurodivergent. Sure it’s FINE to be autistic, if you’re a weirdo like Joyce. But Dorothy?? No, never!
I think this is a more generous read than Sarah deserves. She didn’t say all that you articulated. She said Dorothy’s brain was a spreadsheet which is almost as insulting as when Joyce called Dina a robot. Dorothy’s reaction is maybe more bitter than necessary, but we can’t just pretend Sarah didn’t jab, even doubling down on the insult at the end. It’s one of those situations where no one is really in the right. Many of the group dynamics go like this.
Yeah, honestly, it’s kinda baffling me how people in the comments seem to be giving Sarah’s comments the most favorable read possible (“She’s not doing insulting armchair diagnoses of someone, she’s just trying to help!”) while reading Dorothy’s comments as negatively as possible (“What, she thinks that people who are autistic don’t understand people, even though that’s not, strictly speaking, what she said, and she might be pissed off by the armchair diagnoses?”).
Dorothy is “too perfect” for some people, because she really tries to be nice and polite, and sometimes people hate that. Especially in women. And want them to fuck up – which everyone does.
They hate it in men too.
True. But especially in women.
I just genuinely can’t figure out what else Dorothy might mean by “I understand people.”
If she’s not saying it in response to Sarah’s “diagnosis”, what is she talking abouf?
Of course she’s saying it in response to Sarah’s “diagnosis.” Perhaps it’s because comments get separated from what they are responding to, but I haven’t seen anyone claiming otherwise.
I’ve seen a certain amount of variation in what people believe Sarah and Dorothy meant by what they said.
I think Dorothy is saying “I understand people” as evidence that she is not autistic. Some commenters say that’s an unfair interpretation. If she is responding to the diagnosis, what other interpretation is possible?
I can’t figure out how the “i understand people” comment could mean anything other than “I’m not autistic; I understand pwople.”
A lot of people seem to think that’s not the implication, so I am clearly missing something. How does that statement make sense if it’s not a counterargument to Sarah’s armchair diagnosis?
Replace the semicolon with a comma, changes it from “If autism then misunderstanding”. Sometimes you can say something isn’t the reason for something else without inherently saying that it would otherwise be. Like, “My house isn’t blue, it’s just cloudy out” doesn’t mean “Houses can’t look blue unless it’s cloudy out.”, if that makes sense.
That doesn’t make sense to me. “My house isn’t blue, it’s just cloudy out” sounds entirely nonsensical to me, so I’m not understanding the metaphor.
…if it’s cloudy out, a grey house might look blueish from the change in light. ???
Ok. What does cloudiness represent? And what does house blueness represent?
To be clear, I genuinely want to understand. It seems like you have a different perspective than I do so I’m really curious. Re-reading my last comment, I was worried it sounded like I was trying to argue with you.
This is a bit late because sometimes sleep happens and we can’t fight it, but:
The house looking blue represents a perceived state of being. The cloudiness represents something that alters that perception but isn’t actually changing the state of being. I’m not eloquent enough to say it more clearly than that, so the rest is up to you.
What could Dorothy possibly mean other than “you are incorrect that I have autism. My evidence is that I understand people.”?
Or it could just, you know, be Dorothy being vexed that people keep implying that she is socially incapable/robotic because people on occasion find her too serious/boring for their liking.
Or because it seems like downplaying how serious the symptoms can be and that she can’t possibly be autistic because she has very few social deficits in comparison to say Dina or raised in a cult Joyce.
The past two comics have ended with lines about how being autistic means it’s harder to understand people.
Today’s ends on Sarah implying Dorothy might be neurodivergent due to how organized she is.
Remember when Dorothy was going to apply to be R.A.? While there was ultimately no new R.A., Roz was clearly putting her best foot forward in becoming a popular choice. Dorothy was even taunted about being so organized that she was off-putting to “her constituents.” She was the group mom.
So Sarah hits a nerve. Dorothy’s fears of never being good enough for her dreams are speaking here. Regardless of what she thinks of neurodivergence, there’s no question that her chosen profession relies entirely on what other people think of her.
Does that excuse it? Up to you. But I can see exactly how we got to this point, which helps me accept it.
Agreed. I think she’s reacting to her own insecurities about how she understands and related to people and how they perceive her more than just the isolated suggestion she’s on the spectrum.
Dorothy is insecure about not being as charismatic as people like Becky or Roz, combined with ignorance about what being on the spectrum means and her anger at anything she sees as an obstacle to her career goal, her reaction though gross is not surprising.
Yeah, I noticed that too, Ivy.
Also that Dorothy’s defense is that she can’t possibly be because she understands people… which lots of people with autism do, particularly women with autism.
Also, to the Sarah/Dorothy argument… I mean, they can both be assholes. I’m not pleased with Sarah either, but Sarah is secondly only to Mike in being an asshole as a main character trait, so I kinda just rolled with it.
Also… yeah, Dorothy is a high chance of autism and an ever higher chance of ADD or ADHD. Her hyper organization is a major symptom of the female presentation of that.
Which I know because it is a trait she shares with my wife, who just got her diagnosis on Thursday.
“You should understand autistic people because you’re a fucking weirdo too” is not a nice thing to say to someone nor is it respectful to neurodivergent people. This is the second time in four strips Sarah has said that she believes someone is autistic because they act like it.
Sarah is being overtly bigoted here, even if only through insinuation
Sorry, I meant to say “because they ‘act like it'” in square quotes, by which I mean that SARAH believes that being “weird” is the same as being autistic. The way I wrote it makes it sound like *I* think Joyce “acts” stereotypically neurodivergent when I meant to say Sarah’s implying that *she* believes it
Yeah, Dorothy’s reply isn’t great but this is literally the same thing as calling Dina a robot except it’s at a person who probably isn’t autistic.
You’re the one bringing insults into this, ESM. Saying someone’s likely to be autistic because their brain is organized in a way heavily correlated with autism is not an insult? Like, being autistic is not an insult. “You act autistic” is not an insult. Sarah is not being bigoted here, she’s being observant.
Reassuring oneself of one’s social skills by pointing to those who appear to have fewer of those skills?
Pretty freaking accurate.
As autistic folks do tend to flock together, even before realization or diagnosis…
Oh my gods, yes.
The more time passes, the more of my friends get diagnosed with autism, ADHD, or ADD.
Frankly, if the last few days are anything to go by, this comment section is very much evidence of that.
Years before I got diagnosed, two of the friends I got along with best in college were a pair of sibling who were autistic. Once I started to realize I was also autistic, it made sense why we got along so well.
At this point I joke that getting along with me is a symptom XD
Lol I feel that! (I’m almost 25 for ref) My best friend since kindergarten was diagnosed in either late middle school or early high school and I was diagnosed this year. Their partner is also autistic and several members of our friend group are also autistic or ND in other ways. Having a larger number of ND friends probably is a “symptom” :p
Everybody’s somewhere on the spectrum.
Nah. Just because it’s a loose grouping with a wide range doesn’t mean it covers literally anything, it would have no meaning in that case.
I understand trying to simplify it like that to make it…simple, but that doesn’t make it correct.
No. The spectrum is a spectrum of how autism effects people. Neurotypical/allistic people are not on the spectrum because they are neurotypical/allistic.
Do you actually know anyone who is, though? Could they simply be better at “masking”, etc?
Because the more I think and learn and experience, the more I suspect that “normal” is just something we made up, or assume must exist out there because we can’t all be weird creatures groping in the dark… right?
tl;dr IMO all of this is arbitrary labeling and boxes. Humans Are.
All words are made up, not just “Normal”. They exist for the purpose of attempting to communicate, and redefining them in silly ways – like using “literally” to describe figurative things, or “retarded” to describe anyone unintelligent rather than a highly specific classification – just makes them worthless communication tools. Redefining the spectrum to say everyone is on it definitely falls in that category, we would just need to make a new word to describe the phenomenon we were trying to talk about that is, in fact, not observable in everyone.
+1
The meaning of words changes over time. People have been using “literally” hyperbolically for literally centuries.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/literally
> like using “literally” to describe figurative things
Any use of the word “literal” to mean anything other than “of or referring to letters” is figurative, however, that does not mean that “literal” ever means “figurative”. It does not. Literal and literally are intensifiers, no different from “really” or “very” – and yet, you somehow never hear anybody say “No, your mom didn’t really blow up, that’s not real” or “No, it’s not very cool, because it’s not cold in any verifiable sense at all, it’s only fashionable.”
The point being, there is now no longer a word that means “not figuratively” when using phrases that are commonly figurative, but not in that specific instance. The usage shift just left a communication hole.
While we’ve never seen a totally sane human being I do know a number of people who are not on the autism spectrum. Just because normal is something we made up that doesn’t mean everyone belongs to one specific subset of outside the alleged norm.
While that’s a fun philosophical argument, it actually runs the risk of *harming people* because it implies that their needs aren’t really real, they aren’t really disabled, they don’t really need particular help.
It’s the ableist answer to “Racism isn’t real because there’s Only One Human Race”. Lovely sentiment, to be sure, but damaging and false.
You’re asking for someone to provide proof of absence based on an absence of proof. That’s silly. “Can you definitely know that someone isn’t autistic and not just good at pretending they’re not?” Just ridiculous.
That’s the other end of the spectrum, it’s a range from 0 through 1, with 0 being “neurotypical” and 1 being “something totally not neurotypical”. TBH I have no idea of the other end of the spectrum because by that point there are so many other diagnosis.
No. It isn’t. The spectrum only encompasses people who are autistic. Allistic people are by definition not on the spectrum.
There’s some confusion over what the spectrum is in this comment section. It’s not a 0-1 linear spectrum from more to less Autistic, rather the spectrum is like an eight/ten-point graph representing each commonly experienced trait (emotion regulation, social receptiveness, pattern seeking, routine adherence etc) that shows how much each person experiences each trait.
Examples below VVV
https://img.ifunny.co/images/be0b2575196f1a1cd010e0fdde9aed31439a5541d836fd8815a4d3e790deb2ec_1.jpg
https://themighty.com/2020/03/autism-spectrum-wheel/
That’s actually really neat, thanks for sharing that.
Hey, those are great, thank you for sharing! That’s a very helpful way to visualize.
Isn’t a “linear spectrum” just a scale/meter, anyway?
And some days we spin the wheel. Fun! (not)
…For reference, this is the answer to your above question.
Rather, neurodivergents are still human, so we being the same in some aspects while still being our own thing in others should be a given
Like, literally everything is a spectrum if you get down to the nitty gritty
I’m not saying you’re wrong Sarah. I’m just saying it’s generally impolite to actually say that to someone who hasn’t asked for your input on the subject unless you’re their doctor or you’re trying to help them access needed accommodations at work or school.
It’s like no matter how obvious a little unhatched egg is being you don’t go trying to crack their shell for them.
“Your brains a spreadsheet” makes it sound like a superpower.
Well, in some ways it is. In many other ways it isn’t.
That’s the thing about superpowers, they have pros and cons that are easy enough to find
Superhero stories have to deal with that all the time
You know, I was fully expecting Joyce to be the one to start rattling off stereotypes first, but apparently no one in this comic (except maybe Dina) knows how autism works. Also, “You don’t understand people” is REAL FUCKING RICH coming from Sarah.
Autism=/=being a bitter pill. Sarah understands social ques perfectly well.
I’m not saying Sarah is actually autistic; I’m saying someone as antisocial as her has no right to criticize others for not having social skills.
I wouldn’t say being anti-social means you don’t have people skills. Sometimes your Anti-social because you don’t like people because have the tendency to suck.
To be more specific, then, Sarah, being the pessimistic misanthrope that she is, has a tendency to assume the worst about people, and she’s usually wrong. This gives her a pretty warped perception of others, which contributes to her anti-social behavior.
Whoops, flagged by accident, didn’t mean to.
Anyway, 0 criticism took place here. This is legitimate analysis of Dorothy’s whole… thing? Sarah is probably right and she was trying to point out that Dorothy should not in her opinion have trouble understanding Joyce…
Being autistic is not inherently a fucking insult what the fuck is wrong with this comment section
I think we’re going to hear stereotypes and misunderstandings from just about everyone. I don’t know about kids (/college freshmen) these days but so few adults 30+ actually understand the autism spectrum unless they’re on it, potentially on it, or have children on it.
It never even crossed my mind I could be autistic because I wasn’t taught what it actually was, just attacked with “Rainman” comments or having the label used as an insult like “gay” was at the time.
The not being told what autistic actually means thing is huge. I feel like that part of your comment needs to be bolded.
When I was in my teens and early 20s, I made a concerted effort to study the social interactions of other people, mostly my friends, and imitate them until they started to feel natural. By the time I was 22, I had mastered them to the point where I no longer had to regularly ‘fake’ them.
I am now in my early 40s. I did not learn until a few months ago that the above behavior is extremely common for women with autism.
You’re overestimating most people who have children on the spectrum.
“So, Dorothy, you think you can just Google how-to guides and magically understand how to “handle” an “autistic” person with the first result that’s likely tainted by Autism Speaks or otherwise the pop-psyche pseudo-science bullshit greedy corporations profit on, like we neurodivergents are some mass-produced machines that work more or less the same according to some magic problem-solving how-to guide?!?!?!”
She didn’t say any of that.
Yeah, I get the negative interpretations and reactions to what she says later in the strip, but the Googling part could just as well be, “I’m going to try to educate myself on this to best support my friend.” Not that I necessarily have been in favor of Dorothy’s more recent “supporting Joyce” attempts, but I get that impulse.
So many pitfalls, so much she could get wrong, so many ways she can REALLY hurt someone she cares about….
What is it some humans say, “a little knowledge only increases ignorance”?
I mean, she’s probably already at a place of “a little knowledge.”
She’s doing better than Sarah here, who is now using “hey you might be autistic too” as a general purpose battering ram. I think Dorothy is implying that Sarah is the one who doesn’t understand people.
I’d disagree with that take. Sarah understands people, she just chooses to be cynical about it.
Either way, Sarah is on today.
For someone capable of critical thinking, using all available resource is probably the best way to make a better educated assessment of the situation they are in.
And, alongside all of its garbage, google will probably give her some relevant and useful information. Whether she will be able to properly filter through the garbage is anyone’s guess for now, but it seems premature to blame her for trying.
I just really wish / hope she asks Joyce before she does anything, and really gives her a safe place, the safe space she needs to sort herself out. 😔
Besides how delicate this kind of thing can be in general, Joyce had already been denied the room she needed for her growing pains regarding atheism, and now she really needs that room more than ever. 🥺
I absolutely agree with you, and this piece of advice is probably available somewhere in those internet search results, is what I was aiming at.
Also, something worth noting, search engines will reference those threads somewhere and those conversation might end up helping someone in the future.
And finally, having been lucky enough to be raised by very understanding and respectful people, I am often shocked to see that asking the person is not part of everyone’s line of conduct regarding this kind of things.
‘What is it some humans say, “a little knowledge only increases ignorance”?’
“A little knowledge is a dangerous thing” is the phrase I’ve heard. Still, the solution to that isn’t “less knowledge”.
Sounds a little like the dunning-kruger effect. As much as – some – of Dorothy’s efforts have not worked, she is at least _trying_ to be helpful and supportive, and doing so from a place of love. Unlike many others, she also backs off when Joyce or others ask it.
Lastly, Dorothy isn’t the sort to rely on single sources of information.
A _little_ knowlege can increase ignorance, until you gain more knowlege. **No** knowlege is perpetuates ignorance forever.
Becky, if you REALLY want to keep a secret, don’t talk about the fact that you have a secret to keep from someone specifically when you’re two feet behind her.
Per previous discussions, I don’t think she actually does. I think she wants Joyce to find out and engage her in a very specific way that will fit into/reinforce Becky’s self-image and how she response to being challenged.
Yes, Becky wants to frame Joyce as The Enemy and then Heroically Defeat Her. It’s a bad look all the ways down.
Yeah I know. It’s just so obnoxious, though!
And yet it was Dorothy being read there
That would actually be a very interesting thing for Dotty to deal with, the realization that she has a condition that could very likely (and has very likely) made her career choice/path much harder. It may have also blinded her that the Presidency is not a merit-based position but a contest on popularity that doesn’t remotely depend on one’s education level but one’s ability to network.
Oh, shit. Is this finally Dorothy beginning to confront the internalized ableism she’s been dancing around for the whole comic’s run? Her “I can get better grades if I just try harder” attitude really rings, in hindsight, with a conviction that she CAN’T be disabled, disabled people don’t get to be successful, there are no “excuses” for “failure”.
Certainly puts more of a sad light on her slipping grades as she has to prioritize away her free time more.
I don’t think Dorothy is neuro divergent I think Sarah doesn’t fully understand what is to be neuro divergent or attic other then preconcived notions and Dorothy doesn’t fully understand what it is to be neuro divergent either hence why she is already planing a support system.
Also Sarah and Dorothy’s instincts when it comes to Joyce is to be protective. Its not a bad thing but as I had said in another post I don’t know if other neurodivergent folks feel this way but I hate to be protected it says to me there is something wrong with me and I can’t handle my own life and that is infuriating but understandable
Dorothy could go either way, really. She’s very high functioning on the spectrum if she is and it’s also possible that Sarah is just playing to Dorothy’s insecurities.
“High functioning” is a term used to deny you help. “Low functioning” is a term used to deny your basic humanity. Let’s try to avoid the functioning labels.
Hear, hear.
Also: Both terms are used to deny autistic people’s input. If you’re “high functioning” you obviously don’t understand “real” autism, and if you’re “low functioning” you obviously are too impaired to understand your own needs. Blech.
Also also: Even taken at face value, those are not fixed conditions. Support-level needs change from moment to moment.
This is just in general something people find hard to imagine.
They can’t understand that some people have WILDLY UNBALANCED capabilities. Like can drive a car but will forget to take their medications.
Because people equate it to intelligence or maturity when it is more like everyone has a skill tree and some skill trees you’ve gotta go up 20 levels before you get that skill everyone else had at level 2. And some people just have skills blocked off entirely.
Or the classic insult that I push back against every time I see it “can’t even tie his shoes”.
Like, I wasn’t tying my shoes until 11, and that was before I was capable of reliably zipping up my own jacket or doing up all my own buttons. I was reading on a graduate school level by 9. The one has literally nothing to do with the other.
But people keep saying it. (And for “people” read “ignorant jerks”.)
…Huh. I’m not sure how seriously we’re meant to take Sarah’s hypothesis here, but Dorothy’s response is interesting.
1) I’m not even remotely an expert here, but the fact that Dorothy’s rebuttal consists of saying she can’t be autistic because she “understand[s] people” seems like a sign that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Both Dina and Joyce have been seen struggling with social cues, but the idea that they don’t understand people is… patronizing, at best.
2) Dorothy seems rather angry at the suggestion, which makes me wonder if it has something to do with a part of her history that we don’t know about. Dorothy responded to Joyce’s referral by saying it wouldn’t change how her friends felt about her, but she seems to perceive what Sarah is saying as a threat to her own self-perception.
I mean, being on the spectrum (let alone getting a formal diagnosis) would have VAST reprocussions for a political career like Dorothy is certain she wants and has been monofocused on.
Not impossible.
But certainly something that would have serious consequences.
Oh, well said Rassilon.
I posted a comment further up, but I think you stated the same basic idea better than I did.
It also could be the source of the suggestion. I once had a Partner who had a 20 year old degree in psychology but had never worked in the field, insist on suggesting diagnosis for me and diagnosing me with things for behaviors he didn’t like. Like if I had boundaries about him not making annoying sounds in the car it was because he thought I had ADHD sensory issues. But he kept making the noises.
Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. The anger was not at the idea of the diagnosis, it was that someone who didn’t have the full proper qualifications giving my unasked for diagnosis as a way to avoid my boundaries. It was a derail of the current real issue at hand. There is a reason some comment spaces say “We don’t diagnose over the internet.” It’s one thing for a good friend to say “Hey maybe you might want to look at this thing that sounds similar to the challenges you have been having?” But Sarah and Dorothy don’t have that kind of friendship.
I think anyone would react poorly to a person they know rudely giving them a label they did not ask for. I don’t read the anger as being about the idea that she might be neurodivergent, but anger that an unqualified dorm mate is picking on her for being a serious student and assigning a label that Dorothy never asked to be assessed for.
I really don’t like either response
1 neurodivergent people can understand people. I’m neurodovergent myself and I often understand social context and have empathy but I have difficulty expressing affirmation that I understand or potraying empathy like there is some sort of barrier my cadence reflects this. Its hard to describe its like there is a delay from my brain to my mouth. And by the time I relay my understanding its become awkward and my cadence is always a problem people often can’t understand when I am joking or being facetious.
2 people who are highly organized and seek to structure they’re lives doesn’t mean they are neuro divergent Dorothy has not shown really much in the way of being neuro divergent other then this stereotype that ads have a thing for organization and need to learn. Yes consistency is helpful for those with autism and adhd but having a predisposition for it is not on the spectrum.
Both character clearly should let Dina and Joyce deal with proffesions and provide emotional support and understanding
I can tell you the worst feeling is when my freinds and family try to infantalize me or assume I need their help all throught life to be protected, I am able to function and realize when or when I don’t need help I need support not someone to run my life.
I think Dotty is just displaying actual ignorance of the subject, which is rare from her but not unprecedented.
Dorothy’s hyper-organization, monofocus on her goal, social awkwardness (she treats every personal interaction with a system), and general social distance means she could be a high-functioning person on the spectrum. Not necessarily but possibly. The biggest evidence being her epic fail at attempting to actually socially network beyond her social love during the RA “election” that Roz aced.
I fully could see this developing into a full plot where she has a breakdown at the realization she has been unwittingly operating with a condition this entire time that has influenced a lot of her development.
One that could have serious consequences for her lifegoals.
I still don’t think Dotty is high functioning or on the spectrum the or noticeable trait that is stereotypically associated with autism is Dorothy’s commitment to organization and having a system yet she doesn’t seem to get as worked up when her system fails and she adapts.
Also Dorothy regularly sees a pyscholgost at some point they would identify her.
The biggest hint I would say that Dorothy isn’t autistic I misspoke Dorothy could be Neuro-divergent with ADHD or OCD even then I don’t think she is
Like her interactions with Becky even if she is high functioning she still would not keep that calm when dealing with Becky’s behavoir I personally would have lost it if someone would badger me like Becky does Dorothy even if it’s not mean-spirited.
Take Dina and Joyce when they are badgered they are more likely to get defensive and worked up. Dina assaults people for saying dinosaurs don’t have feathers (obviously this is extracted for comedic effect) but even with out this expiration Dina gets very defensive when ribbed or badgered Joyce also tends to get defensive when pushed.
The Roz RA thing was just Roz was being so absurd and obtuse and competitive that anyone competing with her would get frustrated. Dorothy backed down when she learned why Roz wanted to be RA.
Also Dorothy regularly sees a pyscholgost at some point they would identify her.
Not necessarily.
And even if they did it wouldn’t be out of the norm for them to not say anything until she brought it up.
This reminds me of the commonly held belief that Autistic people have a particular accent. It’s more noticeable in a country where the language is musical and lyrical like Ireland. And why someone could assume Dina is using English as a second language. Joyce is very empathic and sweet but doesn’t always know how to communicate that. Your typical human is very tuned in to extremely subtle timing and inflections, it’s why they are so vulnerable to hucksters and scammers and will believe Fox News over boring NPR and NYT. On a good day I can imitate that. Dorothy is such a Hilary Clinton, competent and serious and knowledgeable and not able to win that confidence game we require of politicians. (Although she did win the actual majority of the votes! Just couldn’t win in the confederate states that count in the EC.)
It’s more noticeable in a country where the language is musical and lyrical like Ireland.
This statement is nonsensical. Language doesn’t really work like that.
I’d say it’s more informal than nonsensical. From what I’ve read, the “autistic accent” has to do largely with intonation. English has very little pitch variation, a feature which could informally be described as being “not musical”. It seems conceivable to me that the fact that English expresses stress through loudness rather than pitch would make certain kinds of atypical intonation less noticeable.
This might all be wrong, but I don’t think it’s nonsensical.
English is a stress-timed language. English stress is expressed both through loudness and also timing and, relatedly, vowel reduction.
Regardless, the majority of Irish speak English. I assumed that the comment above me was refering to Irish English, not Irish Gaelic.
It is nonsensical to claim that Irish English is somehow “more musical” than other Englishes. It’s not. People’s perceptions of a speech variety and how “musical” or “harsh” it is are subjective, and have a lot more to do with how they think of those people rather than how the language actually sounds.
Yeah, whoops, I definitely misread that as being unambiguously about the Irish language.(instead of an Irish dialect of English)
Holy shit, why’s everybody snippy with everyone else?
Maybe it’s just Monday.
(Unless it isn’t, in which case maybe they just need a nap? Or something to eat?)
After everything that happened to them recently they need a therapy. They’ve been through some godsawful horrifying shit just months ago that they haven’t really emotionally recovered from so it’s not really a surprise they’re being a little snapish.
A snack, a nap and therapy is also what I needed in college, so this is very Hashtag Relatable.
That just sounds like a solid plan for any day that ends in Y. Where do I sign up?
A Monday in January, for that matter. Everyone is more snippy at each other in Januaries.
In the comic, in the comments, or both?
Damn straight.
Bless gay?
Leave aces alone!
*points meaningfully at comic title*
Isn’t that just how it always is? Find something to nitpick and fight about it, there’s always a few comments like that.
Admittedly, some critical comments are a lot less nitpicky than others.
I the one hand, I do put a bit more faith in Dorothy’s research skills than that – she’s not just going to click the first link that pops up and take it as gospel. On the other hand, yeah, it can be REAL tough to find good information online about autism, especially if you’re new to the topic. There’s so much misinformation and stigma, and so much of it can be actively dangerous. ABA is still considered by many to be the go-to therapy option for autism, despite it literally having been developed by the SAME GUY who invented CONVERSION THERAPY, and the fact that people who have actually been through it regularly report it traumatizing them.
Yeah, even more reason I speculate that in the near future, “autism” might be discarded for the same reasons “Aspergers” was done away with in recent years.
The kinds of “professionals” who made these terms long ago where the same kinds of people who called Homosexuality a “mental disorder”.
As heart-breaking as it is, these labels were really only designed to paint over us, marginalize us so the neurotypicals living at the time didn’t need to even think about us too deeply.
The word “autism” itself was formed from those Latin roots for it to mean “morbidly self-absorbed”, and that alone says a lot about the REALLY bad place these labels came from without digging into the gruesome details.
If individual neurodivergents still want to use “autism” or “Asperger’s Syndrome” for themselves out of wanting to reclaim it or just as a source of pride and joy, I respect that too.
Yeah, NO KIDDING about the misinformation out there being actively dangerous.
There’s still so so much discussion about this to be had, considering the REALLY bad place where it all started.
Okay, I do feel the need to push back a little bit, because I do think “autism” is good and important to have as a label. No, it’s not perfect, yes there’s a lot of stigma around it, but having the language to describe ourselves, both as individuals and as a community, allows us to organize, advocate, build support systems, and work to make life more accessible to people on the spectrum.
And while autism could definitely stand to be less medicalized, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be studied or that there isn’t a place in the aforementioned support systems for doctors and psychologists, because despite how it may sometimes seem, the entire academic and medical communities aren’t out to get us; there are people in them who are doing their best to help, and the more visible we are and the more we advocate for ourselves, the more of those people will emerge.
But to have that visibility, we need to be a distinct bloc, and for that we need a label. There may be some baggage to it, but as labels go, we could certainly do a lot worse than “autism”. (I mean, look at what the LGBT+ community has managed with “queer”, and that word was a straight-up slur before it got reclaimed.)
I’m 100% with thakoru on this. I don’t care that the term “autism” has an offensive Latin meaning; basically no one uses Latin anymore. I don’t care that “autism,” as a term, was coined by people who had regressive views. It works very well as a branding term and doesn’t carry any more baggage, in the end, than would rapidly come to stick to any other term that we would choose to describe us.
Picking a new term and spending the time and energy and money to get people using it instead, would be a massive waste of those resources that would be better spent actually getting us accommodations in society, destigmatizing the condition, and building infrastructure to help autistic persons find employment, for example. The unemployment rate for autistic people is Sky-high. That means we struggle to support ourselves. We need to have better support infrastructure.
And, you know, we also need to shut down the torture centers and educate the populace. All of that requires massive amounts of time and energy and even money, and diverting those resources to a name-change is one of the most useless things I can think of.
Worse – it’s not even Latin, it’s Greek!
I didn’t say that medical communities and academic fields were “out to get us”, but a lot of them, if not the overwhelming majority, still have practices and paradigms that are still just infected with bias from the awful past and still influences doctors and professionals who hurt us in ways they don’t even realize.
A word for visibility like that is very important, YES, but I just want a word, a set of words, compound words that can mean “autism” / combinations of neurodivergent stripes that just removes itself from the awful past, all the connotations, the hurtful stuff.
So has Sarah’s statements seemed a bit ableist to anyone else? I got the vibe last comic too but didn’t see a lot of people talking about it so I thought I might be misreading something but with this comic I’m wondering if it was more then a coincidence
Dorothy also doesn’t come off great here but at least she seems to be coming from a place of ignorance
Yeah, I’m in camp “Fuck Off, Sarah” here. Dorothy’s saying dumb shit here in response, and that deserves a paddling too, but, just as a general rule, don’t do fucking armchair diagnoses of neurological conditions. The most you should do is say “Hey, have you considered getting that looked at by a medical professional?”.
Because unless PolySci major Sarah has some personal experience with autism that she’s been keeping under wraps, her impressions of it are almost certainly based on stereotypes and ableist thinking, including the “Oh, you’re so smart and organized, it must be because you’re neuroatypical!” trope that is so common with bad writers trying to tell stories involving autism that aren’t inherently negative, and swing back to partronizing instead.
Frankly, Dorothy’s snippiness just comes off as her getting pissed off at Sarah’s bullshit here more than anything.
Agree, very good analysis.
Agreed. That makes a lot of sense.
Eh love you Sarah but that one felt a bit like using the spectrum as an insult and we don’t play those games.
I get your response, but I think it’s less Dorothy doesnt understand what autism is and is more likely googling “how do I support someone going through an autism diagnosis”
It’s rather world shattering sometimes to find out later in life you’re neurodivergent and this is clearly something that is affecting Joyce. My friend was diagnosed schizo-affective and I immediately started looking at best ways to help them during a paranoid episode. seeing as Sarah just asked about support systems that’s what I think Dorothy is responding to.
I did exactly that and:
The Ad top result is from autism.org. The actual first result is from Autism Speaks.
Maybe Dumbing of Age Google isn’t as terrible as this, but HOO WEE this is would not be great in our universe.
Are we reading the same comic? Based on what I’ve read so far, I’m pretty sure Dorothy, the character in this comic, would do her due diligence in researching this topic, rather than settle with, as you say, “the first result that’s likely tainted by Autism Speaks or otherwise the pop-psyche pseudo-science bullshit greedy corporations profit on.” And if she didn’t look beyond that? That’s fine! I bet Willis would be able to use that as an opportunity to explore a new relationship dynamic. And if he didn’t do that? That’s fine, too! This is his story that he’s telling in the way he feels it is best communicated!
From my perspective, I see that you feel hurt and persecuted and bitterly isolated. I see you’ve been disempowered, and you want to reclaim the autonomy that was denied or taken from you. I hear that you want someone to see you as you are right now, without all of the baggage of “words” and the ideas that come attached to them. Or maybe I’m wrong in my interpretation and you’ve never felt those things before, but I know that I have.
What I don’t understand is who (whom?) you’re trying to rage against amidst the comments of this webcomic. Was “hurtful assumptions……” a reaction to the strip, or a heading for your comment? Like, we here are not your enemies! We’re all just people trying to do our best with what we have, here on this b*ngo of an earth; we’re people who sometimes choose to read a story about some dummies in their late-teen/early-twenties trying to make friends and influence people and touch each other’s butts every once on a while.
I honestly am really sorry that the people in your life that you had to depend on for your care betrayed you. You didn’t deserve that, nobody does. But the whole rest of the world isn’t out to get out you, and I would appreciate it if you stopped lumping all of my neurotypical friends into the same group as “The Evil Autism-Hating System”™ just because of the biology of their brains. Idk, it just really grinds my gears when people are stereotyped for thinking differently than other people.
I don’t think neurotypicals are bad, and don’t automatically lump them in with the ones who profit off of our misunderstanding, those who just want easy ways to make it look like they care about us just for the sake of pity tokens for use in the next election cycle.
Re: hurtful assumptions…, yes that’s just a reaction to the strip, just really hurt that Dorothy is doing this shit behind her back instead of asking Joyce herself how she want’s to be helped and treated.
Besides her dubious condescension and “handling” people like data in spreadsheets in general which may very well be a result of her practicing for professional politics,
just thinking about what she might read on the oh so unquestionable Google, how she might build an entire mental web of fractal wrongness from the misinformation out there, the ways she could hurt someone she cares about, added to her general condescending “compassion”, it’s a recipe for disaster.
“From my perspective, I see that you feel hurt and persecuted and bitterly isolated. I see you’ve been disempowered, and you want to reclaim the autonomy that was denied or taken from you. I hear that you want someone to see you as you are right now, without all of the baggage of “words” and the ideas that come attached to them.”
The illerman, you understand, YES! makes me all the happier. Thank you.
I write what I write because I know what it’s like to fall into these traps the bigots of the world have been setting and solidifying for years.
I don’t want to see others suffer like this. It’s fucking AWFUL. 😩
“Re: hurtful assumptions…, yes that’s just a reaction to the strip, just really hurt that Dorothy is doing this shit behind her back instead of asking Joyce herself how she want’s to be helped and treated.”
I honestly don’t get this. Sometimes the best way to help a person is to give them time by themselves. Sometimes that’s absolute worst thing you could do.
Dorothy doesn’t know how to deal with this situation, so she’s going to do some research on it in order to better help her friend. You could make a fair point (as Sarah does) that she can sometimes view people as projects rather than complicated messy living beings, but her heart is in the right place. And it seems harsh to criticise her for not knowing what to do when her plan seems to be “learn what to do.”
Agree. Adding: This dynamic is out of hand and it *shouldn’t be our responsibility* as a community to repair it. There is no report mechanism or escalation process on this site whatsoever. I understand modding comments is hard, but if it can’t be done, we shouldn’t have comments. That’s my view.
😞😞😞😞 😞😞😞😞
I’m really sorry to you and the rest I triggered with what I wrote up there.
It’s just that I’ve finally found a community, perhaps one of the only on the entire internet, where it’s actually possible to discuss “autism” honestly.
I have firsthand experience with the dark side of the “autism” label, legally-justified torture that ruined my life, that BROKE me, so I realize now that’s why I feel especially compelled compelled to overcompensate with comments like this — because my experiences with it are just about totally and completely denied and silenced everywhere else, with the seemingly unquestionable notion that the label is an intrinsic good.
Regardless, I’m REALLY sorry for the stress I’ve caused some readers.
It’s this really ugly part of my I never really wanted to face, that I just tried so hard to keep from bubbling up, but I just can’t do that anymore.
😭😭😭😭
I hate this part of me. I hate how it just leads to me souring moods as I remind people just how unfair and cruel and ugly this world can be. But if I don’t speak out, I feel like I’m submissive, complacent like livestock, so helpless because I know speaking out about it is the first step to stopping the abuse I went through, so guilty and useless for not making a difference in opportunities so few and far between.
This is now, what, three days in a row you’ve posted a long comment apologizing for triggering people?
By no means am I telling you to stop commenting or to stop interacting, and if I were you’d be right to tell me to fuck off.
But perhaps it’s time to examine the way in which you’re doing so, especially since at least once this week several people have told you that they are being made uncomfortable by your comments.
I’m not a moderator (obviously), you can ignore the fuck out of me, that’s your prerogative.
Full agree SDRainbow and Hazel.
People reading this webcomic and trying to comment/read the discussion on the story are not consenting to being a support system and several people have stated – repeatedly – that it makes them uncomfortable.
The comments section of a webcomic is not an appropriate place for any of this. And if I’m honest, it doesn’t feel like an ‘honest discussion’, Wellerman, because you talk over people a lot.
Apologising doesn’t mean anything if you keep behaving the same way.
Wellerman, I will be a bit blunt because I have tried to talk around this in the past and it hasn’t been successful in getting my message across: the issue is not that you remind people of how unfair the world can be. Many in the comments threads comment on unfairness and injustice they’ve experienced without upsetting others as regularly as you do. The issue is not that you’re lonely and reaching out for connection, either. Many in the comments do that, too. The issue is also not that you speak uncomfortable truths. Lots of commenters here do that regularly. The issue is how you treat others here as you do it.
I am one of those who gets uncomfortable with your behavior. In my case, it is because of 2 main patterns:
1. We as a comment group are not qualified to be your therapists, but you sometimes act as if we are. I’m am not qualified to help someone, from a clinical sense, work through feelings of social isolation, trauma and anxiety. I am absolutely able to provide a sympathetic ear once in a while or companionship, but you are demanding through your actions and behavior more from us than we are qualified to give – and sometimes more than it is safe for another commenter’s mental health for them to give. I understand that you are feeling big feelings. It is even fine to express those big feelings so long as it doesn’t cause splash damage to innocent people. What I have an issue with is when you start putting the responsibility for managing and processing your feelings onto others. I cannot do that for you or teach you how to do that, as that’s where the need becomes professional grade. The comment conversation a few months back when you were really struggling with how isolated you are and were asking others to fix it for you is a good example of that. I am happy to comment on the story, speculate about the plot, or share stories, even to share things that help me, but I can’t fix your problems for you. You have to do that.
2, People attempting to set boundaries with you are met with a pattern of you berating yourself dramatically and publicly. In so doing, you often re-center your trauma and bad feelings, cast yourself as the victim and change the subject away from the transgression. See the last paragraph of the comment I am referring to in this thread for an example. This makes it so the person who was trying to set a boundary feels bad for you and guilty that they caused you such distress. Their misplaced guilt makes them back off and stop trying to set the boundary. And this enables you to you repeat the behavior they tried to set a boundary against, and the pattern repeats. This is a problematic pattern known as DARVO, and I have a lot of experience being on the receiving end of it so I recognize and can put words to it faster than a lot of folks in the comments.
I am going to assume good intentions and assume this is not a conscious pattern on your part. Regardless of whether it’s a conscious pattern, it is still a problem.
It is a problem because people need to be able to set boundaries in relationships. A relationship where only one side gets to set boundaries and the boundaries are whatever that one person wants at the moment is not healthy, but that is the dynamic you are demanding from others with this behaviour pattern.
What we want is not for you to feel terrible and put on a huge “woe is me, I am so terrible, this is why everyone hates me” show when a boundary is established or when you overstep. What we want is behavior change and learning. Someone establishing a boundary with you doesn’t necessarily reflect on you, it can just as easily be their own needs and comfort. For example, if a coworker of mine gets upset with me for eating a peanut butter sandwich near him because he is allergic, I am not a villain, I was just ignorant, and now my ignorance has been corrected. I apologize, take my sandwich elsewhere, finish my lunch and wash my hands and make a mental note to not eat peanuts near him again. He neither needs nor wants me to beat myself up all day about it, all he needs is for me to keep it away from him, which is easy for me to correct and do moving forward. Social boundaries are often the same thing, just the need often isn’t immediately obvious like an allergy is.
I replied 2 comments down from where I intended to, my bad. Please note this post is a reply to Wellerman further up.
As an addendum: The above comment does not mean I want you to stop setting your own boundaries or behave as a doormat. I do want you to start respecting others’ boundaries by changing your behavior when they ask you to stop doing something that’s harming them. It is possible to both assert your own needs and boundaries and be respectful of others’.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write out this thoughtful reply. It really captures a lot of what I’ve been feeling reading the comments lately.
^ This is an empathetic but completely on point and well-explained comment.
It’s funny, the one time I met Willis face to face I thanked him for the incredible effort he puts into moderating this space.
I wouldn’t hate a block feature, myself.
Although to be fair, I could just…not read the comments.
imo whilst we all could just not read the comments, we shouldn’t have to ‘not read the comments’ to feel comfortable here.
(^ Previous comment was me agreeing with you, just realised it sounded terse)
I am pretty sure the comments here are moderated. At times people have been warned. At times trolls have disappeared, never to be seen again. It isn’t necessary to report comments when Wilis reads them too.
Very few pairs of people in this social group like each other.
I think this friend group is going to implode at some point in the near future
I wonder if that’s meant to be a bit of a meta-arc, that the pre-timeskip band falls apart after Mike’s death
only to reunite years later to finally kill the clown in the sewers. Walky’s changed dramatically over the timeskip, Ethan literally left the comic, Jennifer is Jennifer now and has her own spinoff series where she’s a radio host in Seattle with her quirky mafia boyfriend, and everyone seems to becoming much worse people (especially Walky, whose obliviousness towards Lucy is starting to feel like intentional)I don’t think it’s fair to say that they’re becoming worse people; it’s more like they’re having growing pains. They’re all learning new things about each other and themselves and the world, their lives are changing fast and they’re changing faster; of course there’s going to be mistakes and conflicts and regrettable behaviors. College is where you make all your bad decisions so you know not to make them in the future.
I highly agree with all of this!
I’m referring to college as the school of regrettable but inevitable (ultimately beneficial) learning experiences.
Hahaha! I love your vision of future Jennifer.
I’ll admit some significant discomfort with the last few punchlines, reading as a neurotypical person who thought a lot of the stuff being said by the characters RN was ableist. Doesn’t help that the whole friend group’s taking potshots at each other so it’s not exactly a supportive environment atm.
Usually DoA is good about telegraphic supportive vs. negative behavior, but I feel pretty totally lost here. In a way that I really have no idea where this arc is going.
I am ADHD, probably autistic and I’m actually fine about with it, Dina’s reaction to Becky’s 30 min diagnosis read to me that she wasn’t angry about it, just that it brought up her trauma which made her angry and Joyce taking it personally is a mood.
A lot of these joke are the kind of jokes my friends and I throw at each other, Now Sarah here does come off as a bit abelist but I’m not sure if that’s a problem with the comic… but yes I do understand the world through books and stories, and they help me parse alltistic interaction and neurodiverse empowerment.
So I got a chuckle anyway.
Oh, I missed yesterday’s strip… okay did I mention I’m an ADHDer?
Yeah Sarah for sure is being a big jerk, but still the books comment kinda rung kinda true.
It’s very common for Autistic girls in particular to look to social role models it could be the cool girl in class, or the cool girl on TV or the cool girl in a book.
Of course it doesn’t have to be a girl role model, and it’s not limited to autistic girls and women… but yeah! Books!
Yeah, I agree with you on Dina’s reaction too, she was just frustrated because of Joyce’s ignorance of systematic racism, that she lacked the experience and imagination to absorb what she was being told, because surprise surprise her sheltered ultra-conservative upbringing, right?
BTW sorry if I caused you stress with my above comments, I have serious trauma related to systematic bigotry, systematic ableism, still learning like everyone how to process hard things.
Neat to know that you’re an ADHDer.
I’m neuro-fluid. That means I can wake up one day and feel more like “ADHD” one day, some of the many kinds of combinations of neurodivergent stripes called “autism” the next, and even neurodivergences that don’t even have names yet on some days too!
It’s not that widely recognized, but I hope it does one day.
Nice to meet you. 🙂
I’m not sure she was angry at Joyce at all… Cause I have moments of that where I get angry at the people in my past because of something a friend says and I just flare up (and I’m not an angry person by nature)… But she’s talking to Joyce. I don’t think she’s angry that Joyce isn’t aware of her stuggles just that Joyce triggered that trauma.
But I’m also white, I hit some other intersections, and come from a conservative family. So maybe some of it is anger at Joyce’s ignorance.
I feel like my ADHD and (presumed) Autism are in a battle… and then usually I’m combined ADHD, but under stress I become full inattentive and when I’m on an emotional high I become fully interactive.
But often I will find myself at moments where my desire to stick to the letter of a rule and my desire to quickly get something done with the least hastle but heads and I become frozen until I rule with one side or the other.
I don’t know if I’d call that fluid I think my ADHD is generally more dominant, but I get not always being the same.
I didn’t read most of your other posts I just focused on this one cause I wanted to give a ND response to Tom.
“There’s such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I’m such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn’t be half so interesting.” –Anne of Green Gales, 1907
I’m curious. Does your handedness change based upon your fluidity?
I’ve noticed that when I’m at my most analytical, I’m suddenly right-handed for basic, non-learned, tasks.
I’m always and legit right handed, that’s not one of my intersections. Dunno about the Wellerman, but hyper, inattentive or analytical modes don’t seem to change anything there.
I have a certificate, signed by a Doctor that says I’m not crazy.
I have one that says I am.
A spectrum is not an Elba.
I slack my brow and shoulders for those who don’t understand that, yet their feet stand firmly upon its soil, though I stand upon a different shore.
Maybe, one day, spectrums will be the absolute expectation, than the exception.
Honestly I’m reading Dorothy’s response not as, “No, I cannot be autistic and my proof is that I understand people,” but as, “The only reason YOU’RE saying I’m autistic is because you think I don’t understand people.”
Dorothy has had a lot of people insult her socialization skills, usually implying that the reason is that she doesn’t understand people. That seems to be immensely frustrating for her, and she clearly disagrees. Whatever issues she has talking with other people, they are not because she doesn’t GET people. It’s easy for her to assume that’s what Sarah’s basing this off of. (I’m pretty sure Sarah’s said something to that effect before.)
Like your friend keeps teasing you and saying you have a crush on Ed Sheeran, and one day she says “Ohhh, Reader LOVES redheads!” and you snap ” I don’t like Ed Sheeran, okay??”
Not because you think everyone who likes redheads likes Ed Sheeran, or that Ed Sheeran is the only redhead. Because you’re familiar enough with your friend to know she’s only got one piece of evidence for her claim and that evidence is fake.
Yeah, I also really think Dorothy’s statement at the end is really just about this conversation pushing her buttons like the RA contest did. She hates to be “accused” of not being good with people, because that’s a big part of her self-image. And if she isn’t charismatic or insightful, how could she possibly hope to compete as a politician?
Yeah that rings true too, I am also I think good with people but there’s also some big “blind spots,” I have.
I like talking with people and hearing their stories, and helping them but there are times when it’s hard for me to be succinct, or realize when it’s unwise to say something… I’m not as weak in that area as some other people in my family but it’s a weakness.
And I think a couple years ago I would take major offense to that shortcoming being generalized as “not understanding people.” And heck I still beat myself up for my failures in that regard, but intellectually I understand.
So yep, good point!
That interpretation makes a lot of sense.
Yeah. I’ve been trying to figure out how to phrase that and here you’ve gone and done it for me. Thanks. 🙂
And given that Sarah follows it up with the line about reading books about people, Dorothy’s not wrong.
That doesn’t actually mean Sarah’s wrong either – Dorothy does have these troubles and it’s very possible she’s on the spectrum or otherwise neuro-divergent, but a lot of people see to be taking those two lines almost entirely out of context to reach “Dorothy thinks she can’t be autistic because she understands people”.
Oof, Sarah, that’s a bit much :/
I look forward to EVERY SINGLE ONE of these motherfuckers realising they’re spectrumites. Including Becky.
I think Sarah would maintain that you have to have decent social awareness to become as misanthropic as she is.
There’s social perception, but then there’s also relationship-preferences (eg Autistics of my poketype often prefer one or only a couple of friendships of quality over a higher quantity, prefer socialising one-or-one or in very particular sets of people). Plus “appropriateness” of tone of voice/expression.
I think she’s probably the most likely to be neurotypical out of…. pretty much the entire cast… But I maintain my headcannon 😛
There has now been several strips without Sarah being the butt of universe’s joke. This is strange new territory for her.
is it me or Sarah’s been feeling pretty cranky today ?
No more than usual I’d wager
Hi all, an EFL teacher here.
if a student of mine wrote this, I’d have corrected Sarah to say “I wouldn’t be surprised if you WERE on the spectrum”
Any thoughts on this, dear native speakers?
The traditional subjunctive is in decline, and has been longer than I’ve been alive.
Unless your students are going to be marked down on an important test, or intend to get a job in journalism or law, I’d advise them to say “If I was” like most people do.
If they ARE going to be marked down etc I’d say “This is the way the test likes it, but it’s a bit old-fashioned now and most people say it this other way. If you get the sort of English-language job that has a style guide, you should at that point check the style guide and follow it.”
And I say this not just as somebody who does use the traditional English subjunctive, but also uses “whom” in casual conversation. I’ve even caught myself saying “At whom are you barking?” to my dog, which is doubly ridiculous as he’s deaf and can’t understand me anyway.
I’m not entirely certain if this is because I’m simply pretentious or if it’s because, like many autistic individuals, I have a great difficulty in switching register* and I was raised by (pretentious) over-educated members of the broader autistic phenotype.
Could go both ways.
* I am convinced that this is a much more serious language-related disability than anybody else seems to think. People are inclined to laugh it off, or even take pride in it, but you don’t make many friends this way!
Sorry, third comment but I’ll leave you alone after – I bothered to re-read the comic after posting, not before, and note that Sarah uses a conjunction, “you’re”. This usage is so utterly unremarkable that it took me several reads to spot it. If you start listening to NPR or watching C-SPAN you’ll no doubt hear it, over and over again, from educated people who are speaking carefully.
Stupid auto-fingers. I thought “contraction”, I really did, but somehow I typed “conjunction”.
I would say “If you were,” but I’m autistic and even in my 30s get people telling me I talk too much like a book (weirdly I write much less formally than I speak). So, take it with a grain of salt.
Fellow ESL teacher here. “If you were” is absolutely correct.
Side note: I don’t understand people’s inclination to mangle tenses or anything else. I’ve developed my ear for correct usage more by reading exhaustively, but usually I have to teach things like that with direct instruction.
I know it’s correct, it’s THE textbook correct usage of the grammar. The question is, how much is the mingled tense (I wouldn’t be surprised if you *are*) seen as sloppy usage. Should I tell my students about it (we’re in Germany, btw), or should I let them live in the false security that there are still some valid rules in this world 😀 ?
(One of my mantras is “natives are allowed to do anything – YOU have to learn the rules, though”)
The subjunctive is a mood, not a tense. Speakers determine what is or is not valid – not the textbook.
Prescriptive English grammar is actively wrong about a lot of things.
What they should learn depends on their intended use of English.
In this particular case, I don’t think even native speakers laboring under the delusion that prescriptive rules are true would notice the use of indicative with the conditional in spoken language. I didn’t notice it reading the comic, and the use of subjunctive is something I grew up with before even learning that some people said it’s an important rule.
Prescriptive English grammar is actively wrong about a lot of things.
You can say that again.
Prescriptive English grammar is actively wrong about a lot of things.
You can say that again.
Correct usage is determined by the speakers. The speakers do not think that “if you are” is incorrect.
Furthermore, the subjunctive is a mood. Not a tense.
Mmm … “If you were” is in context not correct. This is one of those conditionals in which a whole clause has been ellipted: in this case the irrealis clause, which refers not to Dorothy’s location on the spectrum but to a future hypothetical event, viz. Sarah’s coming to certain knowledge of that location. “I wouldn’t be surprised if I learned that you’re on the spectrum.”
Seems like a mixing of
“If you were”
“That you are”
Now subjunctive English is hard to wrap my head around, but I get the sense that Sarah’s usage is common if wrong. It’s the “if” that makes it subjunctive? I think most people hear “were” as past tense as opposed to subjunctive-y.
Both work
As a fellow ESL teacher, I regard proper English as being English your audience understands. Most native speakers would be completely fine with either “you are” or “you were”, for reasons others stated above. Às such, I would actively avoid making such a correction in 99% of teaching situations where students don’t bring it up.
What if “you’re” stood for “you were”? 😛 I suppose that’s not common usage, though. Anyway, I think “you are” is still considered ungrammatical by prescriptivists, but this is dialogue, which is pretty much expected to involve a few grammatical lapses. Internet comments are a completely different case, where it’s no holds barred on corrections! (I mean, it’s still not POLITE, exactly, but it’s socially acceptable. Probably.)
but this is dialogue, which is pretty much expected to involve a few grammatical lapses.
It is a basic principle of linguistics that, barring momentary disfluencies or serious language-related disabilities, adult speakers do not make errors in their native speech variety.
I mean yes google is generally how people learn things
Agreed, though for depth you want a good library.
Dorothy literally has the resources of a major university at her fingertips.
Alright, but? A very quick Google search can help point her in the right direction. If you know that you Don’t Know something, but you don’t entirely know what it is you Don’t Know, you can’t automatically know where to start looking for the resource that will help you stop Not Knowing. Gotta start somewhere, and the little rectangle in your pocket with the magic knowledge bar isn’t exactly the worst place to start.
Part of the issue with Google is that the first few results are poisoned (IE: Organizations like Autism Speaks who think autism is something to be cured/eradicated instead of, y’know, actually letting autism spectrum people speak). Checked it out myself and uh, yeah. Not great on that front. Would not recommend.
I understand that this is an entirely natural thing for someone to do – You find out your friend is going through something, you try to figure out ways you can help or at the very least have a vague idea of what that thing actually is. It just so happens that said thing’s first few hits are not great for the current situation.
And for those thinking Dorothy is too smart to trust information from these dubious anti-autistic sources: If she has the relevant information, sure she is! But right now, she doesn’t and that’s where the apprehension is coming from.
I also laughed at Sarah’s comments. I understand why it rubs a lot of people the wrong way, buutt….
I literally learned how to understand people by reading about them and *actually* studying them like animals all through school (and now officially at uni). Dorothy walking around with a notebook of things about the people in her immediate environment is me.
I mean
As much as some people make fun of it, actually studying people and reading about how people actually work rather than how they think they work can be pretty fucking helpful.
It’s not necessarily helpful at mimicking people, but understanding them, yes.
I think Sarah and Dorothy are noticing that Joyce is feeling isolated and they might have caused some of that strain and are sniping at each other out of guilt.
Easier to be mean to each other than consider your own place in a situation
This and everyone also being on edge from all the drama 100%
And why wouldn’t you be one of us, Sarah? You don’t really seem to know how people work either, not without resorting to some form of aggression 🤨
I’d rant more but there’s so much energy I’m willing to spend arguing with the misconceptions of cartoon characters
Having an absolutely atrocious day so I’m here early again
Not much to say
I’m willing to give both Dorothy and Sarah the benefit of the doubt here i guess
There’s a massive fucking scorpion in my kitchen which is unironically cool
Is the lil brat at least paying rent!?
Next time I see a roach in my kitchen, I’ll say “At least it isn’t a scorpion”.
Tbh I’d much prefer a scorpion to a roach. It was just sitting there, chilling, didn’t move around all panicky like roaches do.
Then again, we don’t really have deadly scorpions (or any deadly venomous animal other than lionfish tbh) here so that might be swaying my opinion
Scorpions even have a cooler name and you can potentially trust a person who’s had one tattoooed on them
I’ve played too much Fallout. Radroaches are huge and annoying, but at least they don’t burrow underground and then literally stab me in the back like radscorpions.
And neither are as bad as cave crickets.
Pretty much this. I’m taking Sarah here as saying (in her jerky Sarah-y way) “Hey, this might match you, I wouldn’t be surprised, have you ever thought about this?” And I do think Dorothy is hearing the same ‘You don’t understand people, you just memorize facts from lists and folders’ crap from last semester. Which isn’t a great phrase on how autism works (again, plenty of autistic people understand people just fine – they may or may not struggle with social cues but that’s a bit different), but I’m guessing she’s massively oversimplifying in her annoyed push back at what she’s hearing.
Dorothy has many, many talents and where she’s arguably a genius. Understanding *people* is not one of them. She has a lot of brainpower and has to devote a lot of bandwidth to understanding even her designated criteria about them, which sometimes misses other aspects of humanity that come to others through natural observation.
Yeah, this is exactly why her dream of becoming a President will fail. She just doesn’t have the natural Scam Artist skills necessary for the political career.
Making a mental note of this strip for when *Sarah* gets diagnosed with some kind of autism.
For those looking for better metaphors… there is only one electromagnetic spectrum, but there are many intersecting color gamuts. Also, what this “understanding people” thing is? Is it like, that thing school of fishes do, when everybody blindly turns and swims and make figures at high speed? Or like that thing with floks of birds? Is it to follow the crowd or to follow the leader? Because it is obvious that the leader must be different… So the “nomal people” tends to follow a “divergent mind”?
I don’t think “understanding people” means conforming, necessarily. I mean, it usually does when neurotypicals say that we’d get on better if we understood people, but it’s not what it really means, and I don’t think it’s what Sarah and Dorothy are using it tomean.
(In the “follow the leader” scenario, it’s the leader who understands people, because otherwise he wouldn’t be able to get them to follow him. If the followers really understood people, they’d probably figure out what was going on.)
So when Joyce makes a snarky comment about Dina being a ” Robot girl” its bad and Joyce is being ableist, but if Sarah snarks about Dorothy’s brain being a spreadsheet and making not one but TWO comments about them ” Not understanding people” its just Sarah meaning well…?
Guys wtf?
Autistic people being robotic is a stereotype, that’s where that came from. Granted I’m not autistic but I’ve never heard of a spreadsheet being used for the same stereotype. Now, Sarah does connect Dorothy’s intense need for organization and her using that to help guide her interactions with people to this being more intuitive which is stereotypical, but I’ve never heard any kind of CALLING someone(‘s brain) a spreadsheet as a stereotype.
Dorothy is the one who specifically brought up not understanding people though.
Ugh, let’s see who will win the “Who is the “best mom?” challenge.
Jennifer. The answer is Jennifer.
Joe!
indeed
Mrs.Keener.
Keen observation, Sarah.
Now turn that on yourself.
Flipping past all the Dorothy hating comments to say what I was going to say before I read them.
Dorothy is so much more mature than I was at that age. I love that she acknowledges she may not know how to support her friend and wants to be careful before trying. I would have jumped right in and possibly said hurtful things with the best of intentions.
Yeah, Dorothy can do nothing right by some people lol, she’s going to google to try and understand, so Sarah makes a rude comment about it, and even ends with a mean dig at “Sure you do, you read enough books about us” Like Dorothy is incapable of understanding anyone without reading a book.
Dorothy’s well of patience and attempt to understand runs deeper than mine that’s for sure :I
I said it before and I’ll say it again,
There are people who will wave off a character’s shitty behavior because they like said character. There are people who will snipe about a character’s shitty behavior because they don’t like said character.
The characters that “can do no wrong” and the characters that “can’t do anything right” slap fest is annoying. That’s one of the main reasons why I very sparsely comment here and most of the time just skip the more…annoying commenters. I use “annoying” for lack of a better word.
Like some people just refuse to admit their blind spots or biases because it’s a perceived attack on them as a person. Granted, it depends on the criticism but even the more tame ones gets met with such hostility.
I’m not saying that people can’t have a “favorite” or not like a certain character. But to go to such lengths as (quite a few) commenters here? Exhausting.
Look, I only excuse Ruth for so much bullshit because she’s fuckin’ hot, and I’m very up-front about that fact. Anything else is just a whim.
To be fair, Ruth do be hot tho
I’m sure both sides of this friendship keeping major secrets from each other will turn out fine
Looking up information you don’t have is A Bad Thing, Actually.
That’s what I’ve learned from The Comments this morning. What wonders will the rest of the day hold?
Hopefully pie?
If there’s no pie by sundown, I’m gonna have fit
Nothing wrong with acknowledging what you don’t know and trying to fill the gaps
I’m not so sure, but a person can be obsessive just because it’s obsessive and not because is in a spectrum. Right? Sarah is generalising a lot, even her tendency to be alone can be a part in the spectrum or just a part of her without anything else involved. But I’m confused about all this very much.
I think Sarah’s snipe at the end making fun of Dorothy’s insistence on using research to try to understand her friends brings up a good point. Mean and unproductive, but itdoes touch on a problem Dorothy has: Dorothy is trying to find general academic solutions to her friends’ problems rather than getting input from her friends.
@willis — I’m not on Twitter but I wanted to mention that I think John Scalzi at whatever is an excellent template to follow for comment moderation. I often ask myself WWSD (what would scalzi do). (Feel free to delete for being off topic—I’d tweet but…no Twitter).
Hijacking this because I don’t want to comment on twitter, but also because I just read Scalzi’s ‘Moderation Matters’ post and 100% agree with it.
I personally am *very glad* to have come back to see some comments deleted. Whilst inclusivity is important, imo it should not come at the cost of everyone else being too uncomfortable to participate.
Even before the new report comment plug-in (which is VERY cool and I’m happy to see it), Willis has usually been good about deleting really awful stuff when he sees it (though obviously parenting responsibilities mean that can take a while). Sometimes he leaves them up if there’s been good rebuttals or discussion from it but a lot of vile stuff’s been spam foldered over the years. That said, as Willis said, sometimes there’s a huge deluge of ‘individually they’d be fine but all together’ comments that are harder to decide case by case or there’s comments that may not be malicious (and so may be heavier handed just outright deleting them) but make the comment section more awkward to deal with for a lot of people because I’m guessing most of us aren’t therapists. One offs are one thing but when there’s a lot, again, it becomes harder case by case. Hopefully this report plug-in will help with that.
And then of course there are miscreants like myself, who see a shiny new button and feel a very strong urge to mash it like it’s the Metal Gear Solid 4 microwave hallway scene (look it up). Wouldn’t actually do it, but….
Oh I completely understand why this was difficult for him to deal with compared to other, more black and white instances. But I am very glad to see the report feature.
Same. I think this is a good way to handle issues like this – Willis gets to keep the comments open, which he’s said is very important to him, but it gives us a tool to handle issues in the comment section while Willis is busy with other things. If he decides the post is okay, he can approve them at his leisure. Seems like the most elegant solution.
Sarah is definitely being a dick about this. She’s basically diminishing the other person’s humanity with these comments.
I have compared Dorothy to Twilight Sparkle before, and I related to Twilight long before I started to suspect I was autistic and got diagnosed. Not saying I like what Sarah and Dorothy are saying here, but it seems likely.
To be fair, when the creator of a webcomic is likely autistic, and they write what they know and put aspects of themself in their characters, they’re a good chance a lot of those characters might end up having some autistic traits.
*there’s, not they’re, wtf typos
I think that’s why I like writing fics about my Star Trek Online characters. They’re not autistic, they’re aliens! (Ferengi captain, Klingon first officer, Andorian helmsman and tactical officer, Pakled engineer who breaks the stereotypes.)
I like that.
*oprah voice* You get an autism! YOU get an autism! EVERYONE GETS AN AUTISM *the crows goes wild*
That got a pretty strong laugh out of me, thank you. 🙂
I know you meant crowd, but I’m going to pretend you meant crows in the first place, because that’s great.
Good thing Rowling was stripped of her power.
That’s news to me. Isn’t she still updating there stupid wizard website and saying weird nonsense like “Um actually, all the wizards at Hogwarts just shit themselves all day and use a vanish potion on the shit, it’s not weird, don’t say it’s weird.”?
Maybe? I don’t follow her but she was cancelled to hell and back so I guess no one listens anymore?
Yeah, she got cancelled so hard that she’s still making stuff at a steady rate and hasn’t faced any serious consequences at all. So effective, all that yelling on Tweeter has been.
These days she’s mostly saying weird nonsense about transpeople instead of wizards.
It’s a fuckin’ shame, because I just got done rewatching those wizard movies yesterday, and they’re still really charming. She really had something there, and she shoulda just stuck to it instead of going off the rails and deciding People Like Me should be eradicated.
If only. It’s been weakened, but it’s not gone yet. Think of her as Grima Wormtongue before Gandalf arrived; our goal is to make her more like Grima Wormtongue during the Scouring of the Shire.
Key question. Who will she shank?
Whats the difference between autism, dealing with emotional trauma and just having acquired poor social habits anyway?
Wouldn’t you like to know?
Pretty much any adult autistic person you’ll ever meet probably is dealing with some level of emotional trauma. It’s fun 🙂
This is a really rough sketch because as a spectrum it manifests in a lot of ways, but generally autism refers to born traits and a lack of certain automatic social instincts that are inbuilt to other people.
Autism is not acquired, it’s inborn. It’s been there since the moment the autistic first came into the world, and it’s colored all of their interactions ever since. That’s also the problem with the idea people used to have of “freeing” autistics from their “shells”; we don’t have shells, there isn’t some pretty little neurotypical hiding inside who just needs your help to spread their pretty little butterfly wings and flit off into the world. The process of trying this instead works out more like stripping the skin off of a snake in the utter conviction that it’s really a caterpillar that just needs to grow a chrysalis.
Social skills can be learned, emotional trauma can be healed, but autism is forever.
Autism: reliable and trustworthy. Get yours today. You can pick up a free anxiety on your way out.
Hi, please back this up with sourced numerical statistics and also maybe not use a fucking slur.
I’d say that phenomenon is caused at least in part because when autism came to the table and became popularized, it was through programs that wanted to garner help and plead the case of autism as being such a significant problem. But in doing so, they pushed Low Functioning Autism Kids as the poster child, and made it seem like that’s just what autism was.
Also, the internet needed a new word to slap onto people after the previous one became labeled a slur and use of it gets looked down on enough to disincentivize people from using it, as happens about once a decade. I won’t be entirely surprised if Autism becomes a slur by time 2033 rolls around. Though maybe not, unlike a lot of other words autism has a lot of momentum from other uses.
I fully admit, it does feel a lot like Sarah’s just straight up using autism as an insult here. She’s likely being sincere, but that sincerity shows an extreme lack of understanding what autism is. Being a bookworm isn’t the same at all as being autistic, and I haven’t read Dorothy as being autistic except in the most superficial of ways. Unlike Dina who immediately reads that way, and Joyce where I go “Yeah, I totally see it.”.
Even though yes, autistic people can and sometimes do acquire a better understanding of people than neurotypical people through study.
Yeah, people are being a bit far too charitable to Sarah’s rather rude, and downright meanspirited comments, she smirks as she comments that Joyce doesn’t understand how people work due to possibly being autistic, then snips that Dorothy’s probably autistic because her minds a spreadsheet and she only reads about humans to understand them.
It’s like she found a new thing to be mean with and is enjoying using it on her friends for some reason.
I could see Dorothy being autistic but she’s the kind that would absolutely be missed by some psychologists for coming across too socially normal by having observed and learned from others over the years.
Sarah’s very blunt and has trouble dealing with people, maybe she’s on the spectrum
Great to see you here. Trying to cheer us up. Love that.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but the general emotional state of the comments section isn’t typically on my mind when I make a jokey remark. I’m just a slave to impulse, and 99/100 times, that impulse is to be a wiseacre. Or to make some chocolate milk, if it’s sunny out.
You know, on a second read, and setting aside Who’s Being The Bigger Ableist Here, Actually, this is a really interesting exchange between Sarah and Dorothy, because look at the progression of their faces! Sarah is smiling, in panel three—maybe it’s fond approval of Dorothy’s helping instincts; maybe because she’s pleased to have a friend she knows well enough to successfully predict her reaction here, maybe a little of both. It’s only as the subsequent exchange goes wrong that the smile drops away and ends up replaced by an eye roll and a dismissive comment.
I think she genuinely meant no insult when she suggested Dorothy has traits that might also map to the spectrum, and she’s taken aback when Dorothy reacts negatively to it.
Also worth noting Sarah isn’t the one who links autism to being able to relate/not relate to people—it’s Dorothy who makes that leap! Which is certainly suggestive of how Dorothy currently thinks of autism (negative, a lack of something important/good, not a condition or identity she wants to be associated with herself even if she can support a friend dealing with it) and also makes sense with, as many people have pointed out above, her insecurities about her charisma/popularity, or lack thereof. (Of course, Sarah does then immediately insult her on that front, but she’s not the one who brought it up initially.)
I think Sarah’s snappishness there at the end may be coming from a place of surprised hurt; she thought she was having a conversation with a friend, and it turned unexpectedly, albeit mildly, hostile. No matter how much Sarah likes to claim the mantle of “cranky introvert,” she clearly has some trauma/insecurities related to socializing and making and keeping friends, and I think Dorothy’s negative reaction to what was intended as a benign observation tripped them.
Honestly that was my interpretation of the strip too! It’s not great form to armchair diagnose, sure, but it didn’t honestly feel like Sarah was being malicious when suggesting that Dorothy might be on the spectrum too and only started getting annoyed when Dorothy took such offense.
I think the question is did Dorothy make the leap from autism to not understanding people or from spreadsheet to not understanding people? She’s used a spreadsheet to help keep track of people before and she’s been sensitive about her ability to connect to people as well.
It also seems from Sarah’s response that she’s not far off on what Sarah was thinking.
I think there’s a meaningful distinction between “your brain is a spreadsheet” (figurative statement) and “you keep spreadsheets about people” (literal, accurate), and that Sarah both said and meant the former, and Dorothy could have understandably parsed it as a reference to the latter.
Me reading this comic: haha damn I love sarah I think she and I would get along great
Me reading the comments: :0
I swear there were more comments earlier. How many of you fuckers have been posting slurs in the last hour or so, holy shit.
i accidentally wiped put the entire top thread for a sec testing the “report” feature, that’s my bad
yeah the default report threshold was actually “0” so
it’s 5 now
I’m reporting my own comment to help willis test the system
Also reporting your comment to help Willis test the system and because I’m curious!
Ditto.
When the reports got up to five, the plugin indeed moved your comment off the page and into a place I had to approve it again.
I like that the “Report comment” link turned into “moderated”, so manually approved comments can’t get brigaded back into the moderation queue endlessly.
Oh yeah! That’s a nice touch.
And once you’ve reported a comment, it shows you a message that you’ve done so.
Please see my tweet about how to make it more accessible, the “reply” button requires to much precision, and I keep reporting things by accident.
😐
Yeah, Willis should probably switch the order of “reply” and “report”, i think…
i’m not sure putting “report” where “reply” has been for 12 years will make people accidentally hit “report” less
(i’m also not sure if the plug-in has the capability of altering the order of clickable things that aren’t a part of itself)
Is it possible to allow users to turn the feature on and off individually their end, like a single “Report a comment” button at the very bottom of the site?
Also sorry that I keep reporting YOUR comments by accident too Willis, really don’t mean to, SO SORRY for all this trouble I’m causing! 😖
Hi Willis,
First off, thank you for this EXCELLENT comic strip!
I think I just accidentally “Reported” your comment, because I was trying to reply to it. I’m getting the two links mixed up all the time, again and again, whether on a laptop or on a phone. Just always.
I’m also accidentally hitting “Report” whenever I’m scrolling with a touchscreen on a phone.
Maybe “Report” could go at the *bottom* of the comment, to distinguish it from the “Reply” button, which has always gone up top? And… maybe something typographic to distinguish it from “Reply”, like bolding, or italics, or an underline, or a different shape or something? Changing text color or highlighting won’t always work because that messes with high-contrast displays and other adaptive software, but something to make the word “Report” look different, or to distance it spatially from the “Reply” button, would help a lot, I think.
Thank you for thinking of this!
Oh, oh my. This is both an excellent point and a sore spot for Dorothy.
so it’s like a pyramid dagger? I don’t know if that’s the actual name for it, but it’s what my D&D buddies call it.
Understanding is a three edged sword, your side, their side, and the truth.
and anyone who thinks they understand people, probably doesn’t, because human beings are each and every one of them a chaotic, seething, mess.
Thus, why I prefer dealing with them at a distance.
What does understanding people even entail? I wouldn’t say I understand people at all really, but as far as I’m aware, I’m *probably* neurotypical? I’m not honestly convinced most people understand people, really.
Anyway, it’s not great form to armchair diagnose, so shame on you, Sarah.
Hey, this “report comment” thing is new. Did we finally overwhelm our benevolent monarch, or was it part of a CMS update anyway and the timing just happened to work out?
Any way to make it not one-click, though? I clicked it next to one of my own comments by mistake and there wasn’t any confirmation prompt.
A lot of comments had to do with someone having personal problems relevant to the strip but it kind of overwhelmed a lot of discussion. This is not the first time it’s happened – there’ve been issues over the past week or so of someone starting fights in the comment section because of strong personal issues with a relevant character being related to it. So Willis added a report plug-in so we could report comments and, if he deems them appropriate, he can re-add them at his leisure. If not, he can remove them. This means he can take more time to think through on-topic but overwhelming comments that aren’t clear cut ‘taking this shit down immediately’ comments rather than having to come down heavy handed and take it down or leave it to the commenters to deal with until he takes it down.
Yeah, I’m REALLY REALLY sorry that I turn out to be causing even more trouble like this. 😢😢😢
I actually tweeted him about this because I keep hitting the “Report comment” button with my big thumbs on mobile, and I have a feeling that I’m not the only one who feels like a bull in a china shop. 😖
In any case, it always pays to make an interface physically accessible as possible to the diverse user-base:
https://accessibility.blog.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2016/09/mobility-issues.png
Looking in Willis’s Twitter, I guess he’s still improving.
Armchair diagnosing seems problematic :/ I think Dorothy isn’t the type to let that stuff get to her, though. Heck, she might even decide to do some introspection and realize maybe she should be a little less analytical in her approach to interpersonal relationships. Not super likely just from this moment, though.
Honestly, am I the only one who doesn’t see this interaction as that big a deal? Like, I’m not sure, but it seems to largely be a humorous comic with maybe some serious edge. I don’t think Sarah’s being awful and ableist and I don’t think Dorothy, either. At least, I don’t think so. I think people read a *Iot* into dialogue that is often simply a little exaggerated as a conceit of being a dramedy webcomic with weekly punchlines.
Yeah I feel the same, it’s just a comic. If everyone was perfect and sensitive and handled every situation with grace there would never be any drama. That being said I think Sarah is on thin ice here with regards to Dorothy’s fatal flaw.
I had to help a group of senior citizens use an Interface on their phones once and they just couldn’t; their fingers trembled too much. So I got a bunch of pens with stylus tips on them and it helped a lot. I mention that because now Report is easy to hit when you meant Reply
☝️ THIS
Oh yes, that is happening to me constantly, even when I use the mouse. “Reply” is what I intend, and “Report” keeps getting clicked instead since they’re right next to each other. I’ll mention it higher up in reply to Dave Willis’s comment so he sees it.
Thank you Laura!!! 🥹
Also sorry if I triggered you too, thank you for being so patient and awesome as ever!
You don’t trigger me, The Wellerman. I just feel concerned for your wellbeing.
I also feel uncomfortable being asked questions about myself, just FYI. I wasn’t going to say it, but now that we are having a conversation about boundaries, it’s better that you know that about me. I don’t like being asked questions about myself. To me, it feels unsafe — not just from you, but from everybody who asks me questions online. Just because of my own personal experiences.
I’m trying to learn to set boundaries by not sharing too much about myself online, too. It’s a learning process.
Thank you for understanding and for being kind.
🥲🥲🥲 You’re welcome, Laura. Thanks for letting me know.
BTW, do things like recipes you like count as questions about yourself? Just making sure.
Thank you for asking, The Wellerman. No, anything that you ask to the group as a whole, (“What songs do you like?” “What’s your favorite mac n cheese recipe?” etc.) that’s totes fine, because I can pick and choose whether to answer, as can anybody else. It’s just when there’s a reply to my comment directly that is a direct question to me personally, I feel a little singled out and uncomfortable.
And that’s not a reflection on you! It’s not YOU who is making me feel uncomfortable. I want to be clear that this is all just about MY own experiences and what makes ME feel safer.
So really, this is just me asking for an accommodation, for my own uniqueness.
Thank you.
Also, just so long as we’re being open and up-front about where our boundaries lie, I also feel uncomfortable being given compliments or statements of fondness, like “you’re one of my favorite humans on this site,” etc.
I’m not trying to single you out, NG. I appreciate you, and I appreciate all the other commenters too.
It’s just — for folks who have some experience with “love bombing”, being given compliments and statements of fondness online can set off feelings of being unsafe. So I guess that part is a little triggering.
Also, there’s some algorithm that’s been sending me nightmarish, disgusting, violent images that pop up on every device, regardless of how many times I empty the cache and clear all cookies, unless I turn off Javascript and cookies altogether. It started here, but now the popups follow me to every comic I visit.
I must have accidentally clicked on something while scrolling, and one of those persistent trackers must have learned my IP address and latched on to follow every device on the network. It feels like being stalked online.
So without Javascript or with very strong adblocking protection, I can read comics in peace, but whenever I’m on a cell phone or a device without that protection, I get the jump scares.
This has nothing to do with YOU, of course, NG! But it does provide some context as to why I feel more easily frightened than usual online.
Ugh, that sounds horrible. I’ve just been getting an occasional full-screen popup of Richard Simmons when I go to this comic on my phone, and that’s annoying enough. I hope you’re able to get rid of that somehow.
Thanks, Yumi.
I actually love Richard Simmons. But I would get pretty annoyed seeing his full-screen popup all the time!
Oh, geez, Dorothy. It feels like she’s angrily telling Sarah she can’t be autistic because she understands people. It feels like she took a genuine comment(which… I don’t think Sarah was trying to be nasty, just making an observation) and parsed it, the idea that she could be autistic, as an insult.
As an autistic person… ow.
“Your heads a spreadsheet”
You know, so is mine, but mines written in like… comic sans. Lol
“Understanding people” doesn’t make one neurotypica,l over autism spectrum, by itself.
Having Asperger’s myself, which is about at Joyce and Dorothy’s level of functioning, I’m pretty sure it would depend on whether she learned to ‘understand people’ with the same neurotypical ‘herd instincts’ that having something like Asperger’s means you lack, or she had to learn it like she learned all her other academic subjects….
The latter would mean Sarah had a point, and she might want to consider actually checking herself first before humoring Joyce’s doctor.
HINT HINT: If the top joints of her pinky fingers are naturally bent toward toward the rest of the hand, they might have Asperger’s.