Having just binged the entire “If the Emperor had a Voice-to-Text Machine” (the source of the Warhammer 40k “HERETIC!” meme), I took the image and post, then a whole stream of profanity with the Emperor spewed out.
The problem is she doesn’t believe trying to get with Jacob while he’s with Raidah is immoral.
She has to acknowledge she’s doing something shady before she can recognize Joe’s moral high ground as a problem.
Okay, can we just remember that Joe is not a horrific abomination of a human being. On a scale of Joyce to Blaine he’s, like, at least three or four steps above Mike. His only moral problem is his objectification of women, which he’s getting better at, and even that’s not as bad as a lot of men have it (respecting consent, acknowledging that women are perfectly entitled to not want to sleep with him, etc.) He’s gross, not a bad person, and considering his background understanding that infidelity and breaking apart relationships is wrong is entirely reasonable for him.
. . . Despite my comment yesterday I really do love how cute Joyce is flirting with Jacob, this kind of one-upmenship is fantastic! Also as usual Walky and Billie are great siblings.
I’m torn because this is so adorable and Jacob and Joyce seem like they would be very happy together, but trying to break someone up to date them is not cool. Damn you ethics.
There are not yet any spreadsheets to determine the most efficient means of acquiring steps, while attending class, making sure that Joyce has someone to walk with, and the highest chances of running into Jacob.
Facepalm all you want simply being flirty isn’t actually crossing any lines. There’s a difference between actively trying to break up a couple and passively placing your option put there.
Wait, have we established that Joyce is actively or passively trying to break them up for her sake now? Obviously she was trying to hook him up with Sarah. Joe was right that Sarah was doing the same in return, while withholding that from Joyce. From Joyce’s perspective though, just being a good friend to someone of the opposite gender doesn’t necessarily mean you’re trying to get with them romantically. That being a good friend can lead to changing relationships with others for both parties is a side effect.
*WARNING* Friendship with Joyce may cause hugs, smiles, annoyance, and feelings of guilt. Ask your doctor if friendship with Joyce is right for you.
It hasn’t been explicitly stated, but given her reaction when Joe implied he thought she’d have a chance of doing it and then her smile when Sarah tried to apologize for tricking her into going after Jacob, I think it’s pretty clearly implied that Operation Breakup is still on.
Her behavior towards him hasn’t changed since she was supposed to be trying to hook him up with Sarah, other than that she doesn’t try to awkwardly bring up Sarah.
It’s funny how some people are on this side and some think that it’s wrong BECAUSE she’s not making direct moves– and some think it’s wrong regardless. And others probably have other stances; I’m personally not that invested in the ethics of this particular situation.
I’ll be totally honest, considering all the child concentration camps and general ugliness in the news about Trump’s America, I just find it refreshing no one objects to the white girl wanting to date the black guy for the most terrible reasons that implies.
Irony Sky? That sounds like something out of the “Nazis on the Moon” kind of scenario.
Still the new Space Race is starting with China as the main competitor so maybe we’ll get some proper space exploration and exploitation programs going… hopefully it won’t end with One Year War though…
Aren’t there international agreements against the weaponizing of space and what, though? –I mean, not like Trump gives a damned about any agreements at all, even ones he made and signed himself; but still. We’ve agreed as a species that placing weapons platforms into orbit that can prevent other countries from accessing orbit is wrong, for what I would like to think are extremely obvious reasons, and detrimental to our progress as a species.
Ah I think you misunderstood me. I’m not interested in weaponizing space. I was talking about more intense exploration and exploitation of space resources. With the Soviet Union gone the space exploration lost a lot of it’s importance and prestige. Now that China are going full-force into it we might have another Space Race which will again kick our space tech forward. Maybe mining resources from Moon and Asteroids. Space Tech should be high-priority for humanity because without going Out There we won’t survive as a species.
The only internationally-recognized treaty between spacefaring nations which regards the militarization of space forbids placing weapons of mass destruction (nuclear, chemical, biological) in space. Anything else – armed space stations (which the Soviets actually experimented with back in the ‘70s), military spaceplanes like the ongoing US X-37 program, or loopholes around the WMD ban like kinetic impactors aka “Rods From God” – are fair game.
Iron Sky was the Moon Nazis movie that delighted in its own camp.
Irony Sky is when Musk gets to Mars, only to have to face off against the undead ranks of Ayn Randian zombies–only to discover that the Randianism was inside him all along.
I think it would be less wrong if she was more open about it.
It would be worse if those direct moves involved tearing down Raidah, rather than just being up front with Jacob.
Yeah, like- she hasn’t really done anything to try and make him break up with Raidah. No schemes, no dissing Raidah, no “seduction”. She hasn’t even overtly flirted with him or tried to be alone with him! Her plan so far seems to be presenting herself as cute and charming in his vicinity and hoping Jacob “comes to his senses”. Hoping an apparently happy relationship will end is kind of shitty, but it’s not that terrible. And in the mean time, even if it doesn’t work, she’s building a genuine friendship with a nice guy. Seems like fair game to me.
And to be fair there are signs of his relationship with Raidah not being all that happy or healthy. With Joyce switching from “Here have some Sarah shoved down your throat” to “If you ever change your mind I’m here” I’m much more comfortable with his relationship with Raidah falling apart.
Yeah, a theme I’ve noticed in the comments is that having feelings for someone who’s taken is inherently terrible.
And yeah, it’s really hard.
But, if you don’t try to do anything then, no, it isn’t such an evil thing.
It can cause a bit of heartache when you get hope and it gets dashed… again and again… and that’s why it isn’t such a common thing.
A healthy way to approach it is to acknowledge the attraction but don’t stake too much on it while they are with someone else. At least that’s how I’ve dealt with this. If there’s attraction elsewhere and the other person single, go for it. And if you and the original person are both in a single state later down the line, then hey go for it.
Joyce, acknowledging her crush is good. I hope she follows a path that doesn’t break her, because I can definitely see Sarah’s prediction still coming to fourth.
The reasoning behind ‘having feelings for someone who is taken is terrible’ is that they view people as objects instead of people. If people are things they can be owned or taken. Things can be stolen. People who control their own actions can’t be. Hidden behind a pseudo moralistic stance, it attempts to deny Jacob his agency. Or that’s my 2 cents.
You can believe Jacob has agency and still think Joyce trying to end a relationship so she can date him is crappy behaviour on her part. The two are hardly mutually exclusive.
What is she doing to try to end their relationship? Is she trying to convince him Raidah is a bad person? Is she lying about Raidah? Is she trying to get him to cheat on Raidah? Or is she simply flirting with him and letting him make up his own mind. Which he gets to do.
Flirting with a guy in a relationship in the hopes he’ll get together with you instead is pretty crappy. Yes, Jacob gets to decide whether he’ll take her up on it, but I don’t think its so unreasonable to expect Joyce to respect his relationship. If she’d been flat out and told him ‘I like you’ that’d be one thing, but she’s not.
Oh the glory of a “relationship” that has been going for… is it four weeks already? Dang, how much trust, understanding and common experience they must already have build up…
We seem to have quite different ideas what a relationship is about.
I might be a bit jaded by now because several long-term relationships around me have desintegrated over the last two years and in most cases, it turns out both parties are happier afterwards – which is making me more sad than I was ever outraged by the incredible shitty ways some of the people involved behaved to get the separation. Or people staying in relationships where there are actively abused by their partners.
Relationships are not holy things that must be revered at all times. They are an agreement between two or more parties to share some things, how many is part of the agreement, and I expect all parties involved to stand by their agreement as good as they can.
But… life changes, people change, and realizing your own or a partner’s changes (or, more often in early stages of a relationship, realizing that your idea who that partner was didn’t match with reality) create times in which decisions have to be made. These times often drag on as people usually avoid change if they can. Someone from outside may give incentive to decide.
I’d rather be with people who end their current relationship before they start one with me – because people will go as they have come.
Neither Joyce nor Jacob have done anything shitty, yet.
Flirting while Jacob is in a monogamous relationship with someone else is shitty, imo. By entering a monogamous relationship, Jacob’s agreed to commit romantic attention to Raidah. Joyce is ignoring that and trying to get together with Jacob not by laying all her cards on the table (which I’d be fine with) but by trying to flirt with him and get him interested in her instead.
And Jacob flirting back is absolutely crappy if he knows what he’s doing. It’s not about revering relationships, it’s about honouring your goddamn commitments. If he wants out, he needs to break up with Raidah. If he doesn’t, he needs to knock it off.
First of all:Do we know he agreed to be in a monogamous relationship? It’s a typical error of people to think the other one means the same thing than they do when they agree to a relationship but never check this idea.
Second: if you see this amount of flirting and banter already as “not honoring your commitments” in case of a monogamous relationship, aren’t you hurt quite often by your partners, because they don’t see it that way?
We don’t know. We didn’t see on panel the moment when they agreed to it. Nor has he explicitly said “we are monogamous”. Of course, no one has asked him.
It is however heavily implied that they both understand it that way. We have seen him check in with Raidah about jealousy and her commenting about “if you cheated on me”. Which theoretically could be “slept with someone without informing me, as per our poly agreement”, but isn’t.
No, they’re monogamous and Jacob is aware of it.
For the second part, BBCC did say “if he knows what he’s doing”, which I at least strongly suspect he doesn’t. This level is pretty low, but if he’s aware of Joyce’s crush, he should be backing off, not playing into it.
Nobody said anything about hurt, that’s your word, but given what we know about Joyce’s intent, if Jacob was aware of it and wasn’t rejecting it, concerned would seem reasonable.
We can be pretty sure they’re monogamous, as thejeff said.
And second of all – no, not really. I trust my boyfriend isn’t running around seriously flirting with people behind my back. If Jacob didn’t see it as flirting or took it as friendly, the way some people come off flirty without intending anything serious by it, that’s different, which is why I said ‘if Jacob knows’.
Jacob and Joyce have had much more screen time than Jacob and Raidah.
So we now much more about the JJ interactions than about the RJ interactions.
Yes, it is implied RJ both mean their relationship to be monogamous but it’s quite unknown if their ideas about what this means are the same or not.
To some, this means not becoming physically intimate with someone else, to others it means not flirting with someone else, not even in jest, and to others again it means only having the barest of contact with anyone else of the same gender than your partner.
If you don’t talk about it but think your partner has the same idea you have, you might be hurt by stuff your partner totally thinks is within your commitment and you think it violates it.
And, well flirting is also a word that means different stuff to different people. I would rate the JJ interactions here as first stage. They are in public and have no intention of leaving the social group. Jacob has no intention to have anything happen. Joyce is hard to say, with her upbringing I doubt she has a clear idea about what to do or not do next. Premarital hanky-panky probably still isn’t her cup of tea.
No. You’re absolutely right. They are not going to go off in a corner and fuck right now. Neither of them has the slightest intention of doing that. If your definition of flirting is “I’m attempting to get you to have sex with me now”, then they’re not flirting.
Flirting doesn’t need to have any intention to ever have sex. A lot of flirting happens imho in situations where both parties are sure that this will not lead to sex and only because of that.
There’s nothing terrible about having feelings for someone in a relationship and I don’t think that’s what most people who have problems with this are saying. It’s certainly not what I’ve been saying.
Nothing wrong with feelings. Feelings happen. But you don’t have to act on those feelings. You don’t have to go after him despite his relationship.
Part of the disconnect may be one of intent rather that specific actions. Joyce’s actions, while flirty, could be seen from outside as innocent. Even though she’s interested, she be repressing that and just being friendly. Except that we know she’s not. We know she was originally trying to break them up to get him with Sarah and it’s strongly implied that she’s now trying to do the same for herself.
She is trying to do something. The intent is there. Whether she’s effective at it is another question entirely.
Sorry, Joyce. Jacob has the superior mathematical planning in this contest. I think he’s going to win this Fitbit War.
… Pedometer Battle? Stepcount Struggle?
For all we know, fitness flirting might be the solution to the growing obesity epidemic.
At least I’d probably be much lighter if my flirting was fitness oriented.
On an unrelated note, I’d like to repudiate the claims that flirting by talking about using your feet is an expression of pedophilia. The ostensible linguistic connection is false.
Did joyce not notice Billie unbuttoning her shirt? Or has she suddenly become more comfortable showing skin. Even if it is just a little bit more, I would think She’d rather button it back up
She’s having to use up all her brain’s processing cycles just to keep functioning around her crush and not just lapse into a ‘cute boy catatonia’ so, no, she probably hasn’t noticed yet.
The sad thing is I have a feeling Joyce is going to need to get her feelings hurt if she’s going to learn anything about boundaries at all. As in, Jacob learning what’s up and cutting her off – if not forever, then until her character development is done.
I’m torn between thinking that Jacob knows exactly what he’s doing, just as Joyce knows what she’s doing, and thinking that he’s going to hurt someone without meaning to. And where I usually wind up is that to some extent both are true. Different parts of his mind want different things. But it’s his mind to make up.
Well, I agree with Cerberus that he needs to be careful, but the notion that he doesn’t recognize that Joyce is flirting with him and isn’t enjoying it is preposterous.
If he’s enjoying her flirting with him, he needs to decide whether or not he’s interested in reciprocating her interest. If yes, dump Raidah. If not, knock it off.
My issues with Jacob here (again, assuming he knows) are
A) We haven’t seen him trying to decide yet.
And
B) He’s flirting with Joyce back before ending things with Raidah. No. Bad Jacob. You are in a monogamous relationship, you’ve agreed you only get romantic with your girlfriend. If you want more, either that commitment needs to change (i.e. ask if you can switch to polyamory, etc.) or you need to end it.
It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that he’s hanging out with Joyce because he finds her more fun to be around. Basically, Raidah is the respectable one he brings to parties. Joyce is the fun one with whom he parties!
There are few very-great ways of handling someone-else-makes-your-heart-go-pitter-patter when you are in an exclusive relationship with someone who clearly doesn’t want it to be non-exclusive.
I suspect Jacob has a problem with this and that it ties into his earlier comment about having had lots of jealous girlfriends. If he’s naturally flirty and generally oblivious to other’s interest in him, then we wind up right where we are with Joyce. And he might not actually be as interested as we think.
Tbh unless she becomes more obvious about it he’s probably not gonna notice. I’ve established down below that I’m a bit of a Jacob, and I definitely wouldn’t think of this as “flirting” in his shoes. Especially since he knows Joyce knows he’s taken, that’s probably wiped any notion of flirtation from his mind.
Tbh I get the feeling this is just how Jacob is. Just really charismatic and maybe flirty without realizing. I mean he’s got people falling for him left and right, I know he’s hot but the charisma has got to factor. I can’t bring myself to believe he “knows what he’s doing”, that just feels really out of character imo. He feels too ethically strong for that. Kind of a Chidi Anagonye type without the anxiety.
Joyce and Jacob flirting is bad of course, but dang they do have good chemistry. If it weren’t for the disastrous he’s-in-a-relationship undertone, it would really be a cute romance.
I know. The most annoying thing about this whole plotline is that I really do like them together, but it really shouldn’t lead that way, but to a “Joyce learns a lesson” conclusion.
Like Sarah, Billie and Walky, I know that this is probably Joyce and Jacob openly flirting with each other but it’s still something bizarre to watch. Jacob obviously has a strong centre of jock but I can’t shake the impression that the two of them are actually talking about something else!
I think both of them implicitly know what they’re doing but don’t want to directly face up to the fact. The only way this can go really wrong is if either Jacob or Joyce, who both have strongly moral selves, are forced to confront that what they’re doing has consequences – like hurting a third party, who’s flawed and maybe not the best girlfriend but doesn’t deserve that hurt. I’d like to see a storyline that would humanize Raidah like this and also force Joyce and Jacob to confront their less than perfect moral selves.
Going through life and opening up to people will get you hurt, no matter how good anyone’s intentions are.
No one deserves to be intentionally hurt, but we should accept it’s a fact of life that people you like, love or just are around a lot will hurt you at one time or another, because they are themselves and not an idea in your head that always has the same needs, wants and desires as you do.
You know, if Sarah were to call them out right now, I bet that they’d both deny that they’re flirting and mean it. It’s what is really cute but weird about this whole thing. They’re both so innocent that they don’t entirely know what they’re doing.
I mean, they MIGHT build a strong friendship that never becomes anything more like a friendship…
…but if Jacob were to start hesitate about how much he really wants to be with Raidah, and start to think about how much Joyce makes his heart go pitter-patter… yeah it might become very not-innocent very quickly.
Also, I don’t think Sarah has that much of an incentive to interrupt Jocye and Jacob. She has come clean with Joyce, she is not the one doing horribly mean things any longer… but if Joyce keeps flirting by her on volition… and if Jacob answers in kind… and if Sarah keeps quiet about it… there is still a chance Raidah might be hurt in the process.
Raidah is going to be hurt because she’s invested her future plans in a guy she has known for all of a month and ignored everything that tells her he doesn’t fit into her plans. Instead she manipulates him to behave as she wants.
This will bite her some way down the line no matter how Jacob and Joyce play out.
BTW: if your aim in life is not to be emotionally hurt, you should avoid human contact. It’s inevitable, else.
Joyce though. After her conversation with Joe about how she might have a chance with Jacob and then the look after she talked to Sarah about it – Joyce knows exactly what she’s doing.
Fake competition is a common theme in flirting, and one of the ways you can tell this is specfiically flirting are things like Joyce adding in the veiled compliment of Jacob being gigantic. Basically engaging in the friendly competition is about reinforcing your shared interest, and therefore deepening your connection
…
I guess that explains why people assume I’m flirting when I’m just being being fucking -friendly-? ._.
I mean, “deepening a connection” isn’t what you do with friends? To keep them close? And complimenting your friends, isn’t that a good thing too? @.@
And I suspect that’s what Jacob is doing here. Joyce on the hand is doing so with romantic intent.
As I’ve said before I suspect this is why Jacob’s had problems with jealous girlfriends in the past – he forms close flirty friendships with girls with obvious crushes on him. He’s completely oblivious, but it’s obvious to everyone else.
Despite my dedication to the old Walkyverse and thus kinda wanting to see Joyce and Walky hook up, I am enjoying Walky and Billie as a dynamic and could be convinced to even ship them.
Yknow, it didn’t even really occur to me the Joyce jacob was flirting until the comments pointed it out. This still just feels like banter to me tbh. Which I guess makes me more like Jacob, since I guess I’d unintentionally do this too.
Actually I was thinking about that more while going through the comments and realized that I actually was in a kind of similar situation. When I met my current boyfriend he and I were both in (dead) relationships and all his attempts at flirting, including straight up saying he liked me, flew straight over my head because we were both dating people. And while I was desperate to find anyone new I didn’t think he was.
So yeah, I get the feeling unless Joyce straight up confesses to him, or someone else does on her behalf, Jacobs not going to catch on.
Side note- do I talk about myself too much in the comments. I feel like I do but I feel that way whenever I bring myself up at all.
Curious if Joyce is deliberately flirting, or if she’s just having fun talking to Jacob, like before Joe exposed Sarah’s actual plan, and it just kind of lends up as flirtation.
It’s really hard for me to read it any other way, though she may just get caught up in having fun talking to Jacob? But like last strip when she was putting her hair up to “look nice for … for lunch”.
There is very definitely intent here.
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Is Joyce’s toe better? I wouldn’t be entering a step-count competition with a possibly broken toe.
I mean, no matter what it should probably still be hurting.
I blame Webcomic Accelerated Healing Time.
That’s because you don’t have a winning attitude.
Only LOSERS bother with a winning attitude!
I guess it wasn’t broken (or even fractured?) then. but, I’m pretty sure that toenail is purple by now 😀
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/roadway/
Apparently manageable, now. Or it hurts still but flirtin’ is more important.
good point. I’d forgotten how much those feelings override pain at that age 🙂
The toe is crushed, but Joyce is crushing.
Joyce: “And guess how many SQUATS I did!”
Walky: “Hey, *I* did squat!”
+0
Having just binged the entire “If the Emperor had a Voice-to-Text Machine” (the source of the Warhammer 40k “HERETIC!” meme), I took the image and post, then a whole stream of profanity with the Emperor spewed out.
PRetty sure 40k fans have been doing the HERETIC! thing for longer than Text-to-speech.
When Joe has a moral high ground in anything. you. need to reevaluate alot
The problem is she doesn’t believe trying to get with Jacob while he’s with Raidah is immoral.
She has to acknowledge she’s doing something shady before she can recognize Joe’s moral high ground as a problem.
Is… Joyce even aware of Joe’s opinion on the matter?
The fact that Joe is right and Joyce is wrong terrifies me. Well, both tend to be wrong a lot, but this is scary.
To answer the question, I’m pretty sure Joyce is aware of Joe’s general stance. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/lying/
He was more specific on his stance a couple strips prior.
Okay, can we just remember that Joe is not a horrific abomination of a human being. On a scale of Joyce to Blaine he’s, like, at least three or four steps above Mike. His only moral problem is his objectification of women, which he’s getting better at, and even that’s not as bad as a lot of men have it (respecting consent, acknowledging that women are perfectly entitled to not want to sleep with him, etc.) He’s gross, not a bad person, and considering his background understanding that infidelity and breaking apart relationships is wrong is entirely reasonable for him.
Mike is on a stairway by himself.
Considering his last attempt at flirting was throwing a Monkey Master toy at someone’s head, I guess he could throw McNuggets next….
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
I’d imagine throwing a toy’s a good way to break it.
He should order a happy meal. He’ll get some McNuggets AND a toy to throw.
You’re going to turn him into a regular Cazenovia.
… Casanova?
Calzones? Is someone throwing pizza products at people?
Are you telling me there’s free pizza?!
Throwing calzones would totally work to seduce Ben Wyatt.
Damn spell correct.
Hey, I know a good rooftop for that!
. . . Despite my comment yesterday I really do love how cute Joyce is flirting with Jacob, this kind of one-upmenship is fantastic! Also as usual Walky and Billie are great siblings.
I’m torn because this is so adorable and Jacob and Joyce seem like they would be very happy together, but trying to break someone up to date them is not cool. Damn you ethics.
“Damn you ethics.”
That should be the tagline of “The Good Place”.
Searching “Damn you eithics” brought a Willis comic up in the first page of images.
https://goo.gl/images/54Qicr
Also “Damn You, Ethics!” should totally be the title of a future DoA book. 😀 Or perhaps just the perennial “Damn You, Willis!” xD
They’re so cute but man they both need to jump off each other.
Or just “jump” each other. Get it over with.
*Kool & The Gang continues…*
peak nerd achieved
Not quite.
There are not yet any spreadsheets to determine the most efficient means of acquiring steps, while attending class, making sure that Joyce has someone to walk with, and the highest chances of running into Jacob.
You know, as long as Joyce doesn’t make any direct moves on him she’s not actually doing anything wrong.
*facepalm*
Facepalm all you want simply being flirty isn’t actually crossing any lines. There’s a difference between actively trying to break up a couple and passively placing your option put there.
Admittedly, I’m not sure Joyce knows *how* to actively break up a couple.
I’d argue that passively trying to break up a relationship so you can have someone is pretty crappy too.
Wait, have we established that Joyce is actively or passively trying to break them up for her sake now? Obviously she was trying to hook him up with Sarah. Joe was right that Sarah was doing the same in return, while withholding that from Joyce. From Joyce’s perspective though, just being a good friend to someone of the opposite gender doesn’t necessarily mean you’re trying to get with them romantically. That being a good friend can lead to changing relationships with others for both parties is a side effect.
*WARNING* Friendship with Joyce may cause hugs, smiles, annoyance, and feelings of guilt. Ask your doctor if friendship with Joyce is right for you.
It hasn’t been explicitly stated, but given her reaction when Joe implied he thought she’d have a chance of doing it and then her smile when Sarah tried to apologize for tricking her into going after Jacob, I think it’s pretty clearly implied that Operation Breakup is still on.
Her behavior towards him hasn’t changed since she was supposed to be trying to hook him up with Sarah, other than that she doesn’t try to awkwardly bring up Sarah.
Pretty much this.
-Starts scroll of huge list of potential side effects, of course it includes death.
Accidental toe dismemberment (not necessarily your own)
Right, and as long as you hire an assassin it’s not murder.
It’s not? Learn something new every day.
I’m reminded of this great sequence in EGS: http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2253 😀
It’s funny how some people are on this side and some think that it’s wrong BECAUSE she’s not making direct moves– and some think it’s wrong regardless. And others probably have other stances; I’m personally not that invested in the ethics of this particular situation.
I’ll be totally honest, considering all the child concentration camps and general ugliness in the news about Trump’s America, I just find it refreshing no one objects to the white girl wanting to date the black guy for the most terrible reasons that implies.
Don’t forget project iron sky. We will have a moon base soon.
Irony Sky? That sounds like something out of the “Nazis on the Moon” kind of scenario.
Still the new Space Race is starting with China as the main competitor so maybe we’ll get some proper space exploration and exploitation programs going… hopefully it won’t end with One Year War though…
Aren’t there international agreements against the weaponizing of space and what, though? –I mean, not like Trump gives a damned about any agreements at all, even ones he made and signed himself; but still. We’ve agreed as a species that placing weapons platforms into orbit that can prevent other countries from accessing orbit is wrong, for what I would like to think are extremely obvious reasons, and detrimental to our progress as a species.
Not that Trump gives a fuck about that.
Ah I think you misunderstood me. I’m not interested in weaponizing space. I was talking about more intense exploration and exploitation of space resources. With the Soviet Union gone the space exploration lost a lot of it’s importance and prestige. Now that China are going full-force into it we might have another Space Race which will again kick our space tech forward. Maybe mining resources from Moon and Asteroids. Space Tech should be high-priority for humanity because without going Out There we won’t survive as a species.
The only internationally-recognized treaty between spacefaring nations which regards the militarization of space forbids placing weapons of mass destruction (nuclear, chemical, biological) in space. Anything else – armed space stations (which the Soviets actually experimented with back in the ‘70s), military spaceplanes like the ongoing US X-37 program, or loopholes around the WMD ban like kinetic impactors aka “Rods From God” – are fair game.
Iron Sky was the Moon Nazis movie that delighted in its own camp.
Irony Sky is when Musk gets to Mars, only to have to face off against the undead ranks of Ayn Randian zombies–only to discover that the Randianism was inside him all along.
Depends on the direct moves.
I think it would be less wrong if she was more open about it.
It would be worse if those direct moves involved tearing down Raidah, rather than just being up front with Jacob.
“Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what’s right.”
Yeah, like- she hasn’t really done anything to try and make him break up with Raidah. No schemes, no dissing Raidah, no “seduction”. She hasn’t even overtly flirted with him or tried to be alone with him! Her plan so far seems to be presenting herself as cute and charming in his vicinity and hoping Jacob “comes to his senses”. Hoping an apparently happy relationship will end is kind of shitty, but it’s not that terrible. And in the mean time, even if it doesn’t work, she’s building a genuine friendship with a nice guy. Seems like fair game to me.
And to be fair there are signs of his relationship with Raidah not being all that happy or healthy. With Joyce switching from “Here have some Sarah shoved down your throat” to “If you ever change your mind I’m here” I’m much more comfortable with his relationship with Raidah falling apart.
Yeah, a theme I’ve noticed in the comments is that having feelings for someone who’s taken is inherently terrible.
And yeah, it’s really hard.
But, if you don’t try to do anything then, no, it isn’t such an evil thing.
It can cause a bit of heartache when you get hope and it gets dashed… again and again… and that’s why it isn’t such a common thing.
A healthy way to approach it is to acknowledge the attraction but don’t stake too much on it while they are with someone else. At least that’s how I’ve dealt with this. If there’s attraction elsewhere and the other person single, go for it. And if you and the original person are both in a single state later down the line, then hey go for it.
Joyce, acknowledging her crush is good. I hope she follows a path that doesn’t break her, because I can definitely see Sarah’s prediction still coming to fourth.
Fingers crossed.
The reasoning behind ‘having feelings for someone who is taken is terrible’ is that they view people as objects instead of people. If people are things they can be owned or taken. Things can be stolen. People who control their own actions can’t be. Hidden behind a pseudo moralistic stance, it attempts to deny Jacob his agency. Or that’s my 2 cents.
You can believe Jacob has agency and still think Joyce trying to end a relationship so she can date him is crappy behaviour on her part. The two are hardly mutually exclusive.
What is she doing to try to end their relationship? Is she trying to convince him Raidah is a bad person? Is she lying about Raidah? Is she trying to get him to cheat on Raidah? Or is she simply flirting with him and letting him make up his own mind. Which he gets to do.
Flirting with a guy in a relationship in the hopes he’ll get together with you instead is pretty crappy. Yes, Jacob gets to decide whether he’ll take her up on it, but I don’t think its so unreasonable to expect Joyce to respect his relationship. If she’d been flat out and told him ‘I like you’ that’d be one thing, but she’s not.
Oh the glory of a “relationship” that has been going for… is it four weeks already? Dang, how much trust, understanding and common experience they must already have build up…
I don’t care if they made it official YESTERDAY, it’d still be a crappy thing to do.
We seem to have quite different ideas what a relationship is about.
I might be a bit jaded by now because several long-term relationships around me have desintegrated over the last two years and in most cases, it turns out both parties are happier afterwards – which is making me more sad than I was ever outraged by the incredible shitty ways some of the people involved behaved to get the separation. Or people staying in relationships where there are actively abused by their partners.
Relationships are not holy things that must be revered at all times. They are an agreement between two or more parties to share some things, how many is part of the agreement, and I expect all parties involved to stand by their agreement as good as they can.
But… life changes, people change, and realizing your own or a partner’s changes (or, more often in early stages of a relationship, realizing that your idea who that partner was didn’t match with reality) create times in which decisions have to be made. These times often drag on as people usually avoid change if they can. Someone from outside may give incentive to decide.
I’d rather be with people who end their current relationship before they start one with me – because people will go as they have come.
Neither Joyce nor Jacob have done anything shitty, yet.
Flirting while Jacob is in a monogamous relationship with someone else is shitty, imo. By entering a monogamous relationship, Jacob’s agreed to commit romantic attention to Raidah. Joyce is ignoring that and trying to get together with Jacob not by laying all her cards on the table (which I’d be fine with) but by trying to flirt with him and get him interested in her instead.
And Jacob flirting back is absolutely crappy if he knows what he’s doing. It’s not about revering relationships, it’s about honouring your goddamn commitments. If he wants out, he needs to break up with Raidah. If he doesn’t, he needs to knock it off.
First of all:Do we know he agreed to be in a monogamous relationship? It’s a typical error of people to think the other one means the same thing than they do when they agree to a relationship but never check this idea.
Second: if you see this amount of flirting and banter already as “not honoring your commitments” in case of a monogamous relationship, aren’t you hurt quite often by your partners, because they don’t see it that way?
We don’t know. We didn’t see on panel the moment when they agreed to it. Nor has he explicitly said “we are monogamous”. Of course, no one has asked him.
It is however heavily implied that they both understand it that way. We have seen him check in with Raidah about jealousy and her commenting about “if you cheated on me”. Which theoretically could be “slept with someone without informing me, as per our poly agreement”, but isn’t.
No, they’re monogamous and Jacob is aware of it.
For the second part, BBCC did say “if he knows what he’s doing”, which I at least strongly suspect he doesn’t. This level is pretty low, but if he’s aware of Joyce’s crush, he should be backing off, not playing into it.
Nobody said anything about hurt, that’s your word, but given what we know about Joyce’s intent, if Jacob was aware of it and wasn’t rejecting it, concerned would seem reasonable.
We can be pretty sure they’re monogamous, as thejeff said.
And second of all – no, not really. I trust my boyfriend isn’t running around seriously flirting with people behind my back. If Jacob didn’t see it as flirting or took it as friendly, the way some people come off flirty without intending anything serious by it, that’s different, which is why I said ‘if Jacob knows’.
Jacob and Joyce have had much more screen time than Jacob and Raidah.
So we now much more about the JJ interactions than about the RJ interactions.
Yes, it is implied RJ both mean their relationship to be monogamous but it’s quite unknown if their ideas about what this means are the same or not.
To some, this means not becoming physically intimate with someone else, to others it means not flirting with someone else, not even in jest, and to others again it means only having the barest of contact with anyone else of the same gender than your partner.
If you don’t talk about it but think your partner has the same idea you have, you might be hurt by stuff your partner totally thinks is within your commitment and you think it violates it.
And, well flirting is also a word that means different stuff to different people. I would rate the JJ interactions here as first stage. They are in public and have no intention of leaving the social group. Jacob has no intention to have anything happen. Joyce is hard to say, with her upbringing I doubt she has a clear idea about what to do or not do next. Premarital hanky-panky probably still isn’t her cup of tea.
No. You’re absolutely right. They are not going to go off in a corner and fuck right now. Neither of them has the slightest intention of doing that. If your definition of flirting is “I’m attempting to get you to have sex with me now”, then they’re not flirting.
Flirting doesn’t need to have any intention to ever have sex. A lot of flirting happens imho in situations where both parties are sure that this will not lead to sex and only because of that.
There’s nothing terrible about having feelings for someone in a relationship and I don’t think that’s what most people who have problems with this are saying. It’s certainly not what I’ve been saying.
Nothing wrong with feelings. Feelings happen. But you don’t have to act on those feelings. You don’t have to go after him despite his relationship.
Part of the disconnect may be one of intent rather that specific actions. Joyce’s actions, while flirty, could be seen from outside as innocent. Even though she’s interested, she be repressing that and just being friendly. Except that we know she’s not. We know she was originally trying to break them up to get him with Sarah and it’s strongly implied that she’s now trying to do the same for herself.
She is trying to do something. The intent is there. Whether she’s effective at it is another question entirely.
I mean, intent DOES matter. Just because Joyce is incompetent at doing a bad thing doesn’t mean it’s not wrong of her to try.
Don’t worry, Walky. Billie will never go on the roof to throw you off. She prefers getting drunk to Garbage Roof.
But what if Billie goes up to Garbage Roof to get drunk, and finds Walky flirting with Amber there?
I don’t think Billie can recognize the nuanced flirting of throwing toys at someone’s head.
I’m surprised Joyce didn’t notice her shirt. Either that or she’s had a sudden change of character in this universe.
I think a certain degree of tunnel vision is a factor.
More important things taking up her attention.
Joyce already has experimented with cleavage in this comic.
Is she lying? Will this be some major expose? How deep do the lies of Gaitgate go?
Sorry, Joyce. Jacob has the superior mathematical planning in this contest. I think he’s going to win this Fitbit War.
… Pedometer Battle? Stepcount Struggle?
The internet has warped my brain to the point where the word “pedometer” lost its meaning there for a moment.
: (
…
That’s fair though.
Okay, Billie, now imagine that this is how you flirt with Walky, and throw EVERYONE off a rooftop.
My God you fitness nerds.
The best of both worlds.
According to my boyfriend (as I’ve called him that many times), that just a jock
For all we know, fitness flirting might be the solution to the growing obesity epidemic.
At least I’d probably be much lighter if my flirting was fitness oriented.
This is a good ship. Too bad it’ll probably sail and sink tho.
I’d ship it to mars and back.
They’re good for each other in multiple ways!
Joyce? You’re… smooth?
On an unrelated note, I’d like to repudiate the claims that flirting by talking about using your feet is an expression of pedophilia. The ostensible linguistic connection is false.
I’m…not sure how I feel about jokes relating to pedophilia. I mean, I get it, but, uh….
As long as kids don’t “get it”, it should be okay, Yumi.
Relax. The people with a sense of humor who think feet are funny will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
When someone expresses discomfort with a certain kind of joke, it’s generally poor form to respond with another of those jokes. :/
Yeah, you’re probably right. I’m sorry Yumi.
I think they meant erejnion.
I would never joke about actually harming children (such as when acting out pedophilia), of course.
Hoodiecrow, if that’s a satirical reference to the despicable “So what you’re really saying is …” mode of argument — well played!
More or less.
Yknow you’re right? You’d think that’s what foot fetishists would be called huh. Its kinda weird how “ped” relates to kids and feet.
Ped- is the root for foot in Latin and child in Greek. Since philia is the second, foot fetishism is actually called podophilia.
Then there is “pedogenesis” and “pedology”.
Did joyce not notice Billie unbuttoning her shirt? Or has she suddenly become more comfortable showing skin. Even if it is just a little bit more, I would think She’d rather button it back up
She’s having to use up all her brain’s processing cycles just to keep functioning around her crush and not just lapse into a ‘cute boy catatonia’ so, no, she probably hasn’t noticed yet.
Oh Jacob, buddy, you got to get better at recognizing when you’re drifting from banter into flirting or you’re about to hurt someone you care about.
The sad thing is I have a feeling Joyce is going to need to get her feelings hurt if she’s going to learn anything about boundaries at all. As in, Jacob learning what’s up and cutting her off – if not forever, then until her character development is done.
Yep :/
I’m torn between thinking that Jacob knows exactly what he’s doing, just as Joyce knows what she’s doing, and thinking that he’s going to hurt someone without meaning to. And where I usually wind up is that to some extent both are true. Different parts of his mind want different things. But it’s his mind to make up.
If Jacob knows what he’s doing then he either needs to
A) Knock it off. OR
B) Grow up and dump Raidah because that would be seriously crappy.
Well, I agree with Cerberus that he needs to be careful, but the notion that he doesn’t recognize that Joyce is flirting with him and isn’t enjoying it is preposterous.
Why? Plenty of people are clueless about these things.
Jacob hasn’t exactly been presented as being clueless. In fact he’s pretty perceptive.
He’s been pretty clueless on this front, though. He never seems to have figured out when Sarah was trying to flirt with him, either.
If he’s enjoying her flirting with him, he needs to decide whether or not he’s interested in reciprocating her interest. If yes, dump Raidah. If not, knock it off.
I agree. It might take him a moment to decide this, as people are complicated. That doesn’t make him a bad person.
My issues with Jacob here (again, assuming he knows) are
A) We haven’t seen him trying to decide yet.
And
B) He’s flirting with Joyce back before ending things with Raidah. No. Bad Jacob. You are in a monogamous relationship, you’ve agreed you only get romantic with your girlfriend. If you want more, either that commitment needs to change (i.e. ask if you can switch to polyamory, etc.) or you need to end it.
It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that he’s hanging out with Joyce because he finds her more fun to be around. Basically, Raidah is the respectable one he brings to parties. Joyce is the fun one with whom he parties!
That said, yeah, he needs to make a choice.
There are few very-great ways of handling someone-else-makes-your-heart-go-pitter-patter when you are in an exclusive relationship with someone who clearly doesn’t want it to be non-exclusive.
Jacob handles it in a not-great way.
I suspect Jacob has a problem with this and that it ties into his earlier comment about having had lots of jealous girlfriends. If he’s naturally flirty and generally oblivious to other’s interest in him, then we wind up right where we are with Joyce. And he might not actually be as interested as we think.
Tbh unless she becomes more obvious about it he’s probably not gonna notice. I’ve established down below that I’m a bit of a Jacob, and I definitely wouldn’t think of this as “flirting” in his shoes. Especially since he knows Joyce knows he’s taken, that’s probably wiped any notion of flirtation from his mind.
Tbh I get the feeling this is just how Jacob is. Just really charismatic and maybe flirty without realizing. I mean he’s got people falling for him left and right, I know he’s hot but the charisma has got to factor. I can’t bring myself to believe he “knows what he’s doing”, that just feels really out of character imo. He feels too ethically strong for that. Kind of a Chidi Anagonye type without the anxiety.
That’s pretty much how I read it.
Though note that just because he hasn’t noticed it, doesn’t mean it isn’t working on him.
Radiah will be angry if she hears these two about discussing the pros and cons of the Saitama routine.
[whispers] One Punch
Great emotional support, Billie.
Billie is a miracle of the universe, knows exactly what Walky needs.
Joyce and Jacob flirting is bad of course, but dang they do have good chemistry. If it weren’t for the disastrous he’s-in-a-relationship undertone, it would really be a cute romance.
I know. The most annoying thing about this whole plotline is that I really do like them together, but it really shouldn’t lead that way, but to a “Joyce learns a lesson” conclusion.
Like Sarah, Billie and Walky, I know that this is probably Joyce and Jacob openly flirting with each other but it’s still something bizarre to watch. Jacob obviously has a strong centre of jock but I can’t shake the impression that the two of them are actually talking about something else!
Wow, that’s the first time I’ve seen someone bragging about having tiny legs
I think both of them implicitly know what they’re doing but don’t want to directly face up to the fact. The only way this can go really wrong is if either Jacob or Joyce, who both have strongly moral selves, are forced to confront that what they’re doing has consequences – like hurting a third party, who’s flawed and maybe not the best girlfriend but doesn’t deserve that hurt. I’d like to see a storyline that would humanize Raidah like this and also force Joyce and Jacob to confront their less than perfect moral selves.
Going through life and opening up to people will get you hurt, no matter how good anyone’s intentions are.
No one deserves to be intentionally hurt, but we should accept it’s a fact of life that people you like, love or just are around a lot will hurt you at one time or another, because they are themselves and not an idea in your head that always has the same needs, wants and desires as you do.
There is SO much happening here and I just. Okay.
Joyce’s Super Saiyan hair is making her hyper-competitive – not too soon she and Jacob will surely produce a time traveling baby!
Don’t pick a fitness fight with the fitness conquistador.
…seriously – Joyce and Jacob flirting is super cute!
You know, if Sarah were to call them out right now, I bet that they’d both deny that they’re flirting and mean it. It’s what is really cute but weird about this whole thing. They’re both so innocent that they don’t entirely know what they’re doing.
I mean, they MIGHT build a strong friendship that never becomes anything more like a friendship…
…but if Jacob were to start hesitate about how much he really wants to be with Raidah, and start to think about how much Joyce makes his heart go pitter-patter… yeah it might become very not-innocent very quickly.
Also, I don’t think Sarah has that much of an incentive to interrupt Jocye and Jacob. She has come clean with Joyce, she is not the one doing horribly mean things any longer… but if Joyce keeps flirting by her on volition… and if Jacob answers in kind… and if Sarah keeps quiet about it… there is still a chance Raidah might be hurt in the process.
Eyes on the price, Sarah.
Raidah is going to be hurt because she’s invested her future plans in a guy she has known for all of a month and ignored everything that tells her he doesn’t fit into her plans. Instead she manipulates him to behave as she wants.
This will bite her some way down the line no matter how Jacob and Joyce play out.
BTW: if your aim in life is not to be emotionally hurt, you should avoid human contact. It’s inevitable, else.
Truth.
Jacob sure. I don’t think he realizes.
Joyce though. After her conversation with Joe about how she might have a chance with Jacob and then the look after she talked to Sarah about it – Joyce knows exactly what she’s doing.
Too much power.
https://imgur.com/a/kEJtZQ9
Billie shouldn’t have toyed with such powerful forces.
Yes.
I have to add another comic to go with your fan art.
http://betweenfailures.com/comics1/152-intentional
Nicely done.
I’m.. confused.
Everyone seems to see this as -obviously- flirting… and I fail to see it as such o.o;
Fake competition is a common theme in flirting, and one of the ways you can tell this is specfiically flirting are things like Joyce adding in the veiled compliment of Jacob being gigantic. Basically engaging in the friendly competition is about reinforcing your shared interest, and therefore deepening your connection
…
I guess that explains why people assume I’m flirting when I’m just being being fucking -friendly-? ._.
I mean, “deepening a connection” isn’t what you do with friends? To keep them close? And complimenting your friends, isn’t that a good thing too? @.@
And I suspect that’s what Jacob is doing here. Joyce on the hand is doing so with romantic intent.
As I’ve said before I suspect this is why Jacob’s had problems with jealous girlfriends in the past – he forms close flirty friendships with girls with obvious crushes on him. He’s completely oblivious, but it’s obvious to everyone else.
I ship Jacob and Joyce. SHIP! SHIP! SHIP!
My tiny woman (shoo be doo wah) ~
Entendre doubling reaches Shakespearean levels in Panel 4.
Quite. I’m wondering how long Joyce was planning that bit. It sounds a little too polished to be spontaneous.
When did Joyce develop the flirty faces? Wow.
She was the most socialized of her church youth group.
To be fair they look more like smug faces, which I imagine church youth groups train you well in
Joyce, for the love of all that is holy–that should appeal to you–stop this madness.
They eyebrows have already started their mating dance.
Despite my dedication to the old Walkyverse and thus kinda wanting to see Joyce and Walky hook up, I am enjoying Walky and Billie as a dynamic and could be convinced to even ship them.
I ship this Joyce/Jacob thing so hard. Too bad it’ll never work out. 🙁
For that matter, I’d be pretty okay with some Walky/Billie too. (Also not going to happen.)
Big yes to Joyce/Jacob aside from the immorality of it all
Big no to Walky/Billie but you do you
Yknow, it didn’t even really occur to me the Joyce jacob was flirting until the comments pointed it out. This still just feels like banter to me tbh. Which I guess makes me more like Jacob, since I guess I’d unintentionally do this too.
Actually I was thinking about that more while going through the comments and realized that I actually was in a kind of similar situation. When I met my current boyfriend he and I were both in (dead) relationships and all his attempts at flirting, including straight up saying he liked me, flew straight over my head because we were both dating people. And while I was desperate to find anyone new I didn’t think he was.
So yeah, I get the feeling unless Joyce straight up confesses to him, or someone else does on her behalf, Jacobs not going to catch on.
Side note- do I talk about myself too much in the comments. I feel like I do but I feel that way whenever I bring myself up at all.
I don’t think you talk about yourself too much. But I also tend to talk about myself in the comments more than some.
eh, I haven’t noticed. I like hearing people’s anecdotes anyways.
Alright thanks
To be fair, alt-text, it worked out pretty well for him
Wait… does Joyce actually know that she’s flirting?
Curious if Joyce is deliberately flirting, or if she’s just having fun talking to Jacob, like before Joe exposed Sarah’s actual plan, and it just kind of lends up as flirtation.
It’s really hard for me to read it any other way, though she may just get caught up in having fun talking to Jacob? But like last strip when she was putting her hair up to “look nice for … for lunch”.
There is very definitely intent here.
yeah, I’d say the intent started here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/sniping/
Extreme cute Joyce faces