I think both Joyce and Jocelyn may for the moment get a small allowance from their father (can’t picture Carol as a working mother) which I think would likely continue at the minute even with everything even if maybe Hank has to keep it a secret from Carol
Well, after all that swearing she did earlier she should have at least $20. Although judging by the face she made when Sarah (or maybe Joe, I can’t remember) offered it to her, I’m doubting she actually took it.
There’s probably going to be a pic coming up with him lounging on a throne made of chicken fingers, scarfing down more chicken fingers, and laughing at us.
Agreed. Willis is doing a great job with this character I identify strongly with. I can’t make ECCC this year – again – but I wish I could so I could do a nice understated Jocelyne cosplay.
Joss is a real cutie and I love her, especially cause she’s a writer 😀
But I wonder, how do you get approved for gender reassignement (is that the right term? I just dictionary-d it) in the US?
In Germany it’s a long process with therapy and involves dressing up as your prefered gender in public, coming out to your peeps … that wouldn’t go too well for Joss 🙁
So, I’ve been living under a rock, apparently. In-comic everyone calls the character Joshua, and in the comments here, everyone calls them Jocelyne. I don’t quite understand what’s going on.
So do painters, illustrators, sculptors, musicians, weavers, woodworkers, glassblowers… shall I go on? As I said, my medium is words; I know lots of them.
For the musicians, artist is for me an insult (but performer is not). There are way too many people who call themselves (and that labels call) artists and just say two unrelated sentences in a mic which you hear only after a bunch of voice corrections – that, to me, is way too conceptual. I remember month of programming gigs for a place where people wanted “this artist” to come. You could recognize those who couldn’t make music for their lives. The other humbly (or not humbly) themselves musician.
Independent Film and Video Game makers. Yes, there are artistic interactive audio/visual computer programs. Some of them are actually okay “games”, but it’s not assured.
‘snot so bad. I had the misfortune of graduating in spring of ’09, just after the economy took a dive. Even with a useful degree, jobs were scarce in my area. Had to move out of state to find one, and that cost a ton, so I had to get an extension on the loans for a while.
But now I’m back home, paying it all off, got a nice place, and a decent savings. It just took a couple years longer than it should have to get there. Plenty of people my age in worse situations.
Can’t complain too much. Got my current job as a direct result of grad school and my current job is effing awesome so it really was for the best. Not at all where I ever thought I’d end up but I wouldn’t trade it.
Yeah, that’s the thing. We don’t even know why he’s the black sheep. For all we know, he was even more extreme about religion than the rest of his family.
Was going to make a separate post about this, but yes, this is something we’ve learned in this strip. The reason for Jordan not being around doesn’t have anything to do with his views not aligning with his family, so that narrows things down a bit.
Yeah. It either means Jordan disappeared soon after his apostasy, or whatever flavor of “rebel” he is, he still retains enough toxicity about queer issues for Jocelyne to consider him unsafe.
You can still have hopes for Jordan, I think! Him being completely and utterly gone, practically forgotten by most of the family, means that Jocelyne is alone. Hank’s opinion is that Jordan is ‘still a good kid’ and Joyce takes after him, remember, and another thing to remember is that Jocelyne toes the family party line in public as much as she can let herself, so as to keep the peace and her family.
If Jordan left the family because of the disagreements between him and his parents, I doubt he’d have been open to hearing from any of his siblings either. If Jocelyne tried to reach out, if she even knows where he is, she might have been rebuffed for reasons that have more to do with Jordan’s unwillingness to risk getting dragged back to Fundietown than anything else.
Yeah, i was thinking of that. Someone who’s rejected religion and may even consider themselves more liberal, but who has not unpacked as much of the toxicity about queer issues as Jocelyne would like.
When he hunts gay people with a gun, he’s not even trying to save anyone’s soul. Just what the hiffle, son, you need to have post-hoc religious justifications for your heinous actions!
To be fair, I don’t think Joyce, Jocelyen, or their father dislike him. Only the Mother and John which would make the majority of the Brown family like him.
As I’ve been reading this sequence of strips I’ve come to suspect that, despite the hierarchy they’re supposed to follow, that Mrs. Brown is the real boss in the family.
Yeah, if you can practice a form of your religion that preaches good works and tolerance and understands how to coexist with science, free thought, and other people, more power to you.
Praise be to Megareverend and CEO Oliver for bringing us the gospel of Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption! Plant your seed* and you will surely have good thoughts and hope showered upon you**!
* Not that kind!
** Not you specifically, but we’re vague enough to interpret any way you want.
Nothing, they just were never meant to be the whole meal. Ramen by itself is like eating pasta without the sauce or meatballs and veggies. I like to add roasted veggies and a beaten egg to mine.
The best is a few handfuls of spinach boiled in the stock for just a few seconds until it wilts, two eggs and a few shrimp :3 Relatively cheap (around 2.50 CAD) for a relatively healthy meal
Aw, don’t be like that! You have so much to look forward to, like rejection letters, editors, and eventually drinking yourself to death and/or starving in a garret!
Nah, it’s worth it. (I mean… says the chick with the day job. But I still write and am working on getting published! Just… around the day job.) As my old creative writing professor once said: “I have more stories than you have rejection letters. I will outlast you.” (This was rejected at two writing magazines that turned down his work, and now he’s a published author and they’re both out of business, so…)
Anyway. My point is, frozen veggies are super cheap and you can add them to ramen to make it healthier and more filling.
Choo choo!
A bit unlikely for her to come out to them on purpose, since Joyce is terrible at lying and Becky is as loud as possible, but hey she has surprised me before, so you sure never know.
Well, yeah, but if Joyce asks to see her writing, Joss’ll have to make that choice whether or not to show her the site she texted Ethan. And Becky can keep secrets; a lot of the time she’s even used her loudness to distract people from being too nosy, hasn’t she?
Yeah, Becky is the best at keeping secrets. Joyce is the one who is famous in the family for being unable to lie to authority figures. So I suspect if she does come out, it’ll be a surreptitious nod to Becky when Joyce is in the bathroom.
I am pretty sure you could trust Becky perfectly with a secret like this, she knows all to well what it’s like if your family doesn’t accept who you are. She might act rude sometimes but she’s not stupid or mean.
Joyce will not have to lie to her family much, I fear, since it’s all breaking apart over the evil-gay-best-friend-issue and “we’re taking her out of college” discussion she overheard.
Also she would have to be asked about it for having to lie and “Joshua” is still the favourite kid, right?
You know, it occurs to me that Joyce has never actually dealt with trans issues before. While I have no doubt she’d be accepting in the end, she might not even know what being trans is or struggle to understand the concept, which could potentially create some drama in the short term.
Yup. On the other hand, I think Jocelyne knows exactly what to expect from her little sister, so as long as she get acceptance she can handle the clueless.
Actually, I think there will be an outburst on the line of “You mean I have had a sister MY WHOLE LIFE I didn’t now about it!!!!!”
I think I just get lowkey annoyed when I feel like my job is getting dismissed. I work really hard, and I like my job, and don’t see anything wrong with it. People like their coffee and I like my little shop and being part of the neighborhood community. We have an apartment complex right behind my shop, and a military base down the road, and everyone hangs out in the shop and knows me. A few customers even got me presents for my birthday here recently.
if you sound alright with your work then what anyone says about it just doesn’t matter. Besides it’s just bad stereotyping of being a coffee shop worker that interferes with their view of your job.
That, and the fact that Lapin is actually happy being there probably makes the whole store run more smoothly, the customers enjoy it more, and the staff has a much less soul-crushing experience as well. If you’re making all those thing happen every day, reaching out and reducing the amount of bad feelings floating around in the world by proxy, that’s something worth being proud of, even if people will turn their nose up at your career.
Nah, it’s not weird – I have a friend with a master’s in musicology, and is currently working as a starbucks barista, a job she is very happy with, and seems set to stay in for at least the medium term future. My current goals for once I finish my creative writing MA are pretty much “get any job so that I can achieve independance” – I’m currently in a place where I’d happily work in a shop, or a similar scaled job.
Your worth doesn’t come from your career, not even slightly.
Yeah, the idea that how you make money is the primary definer of who you are and what you love is just an artifact of capitalist ideology. It’s absolutely fine if your job is just a way to support yourself and your passions aren’t your primary source of income (or even any source of income). Your contribution to the market is not your most important characteristic.
I think gospel of Mark could’ve been written by somebody who meet him, but gospel of John was like 200 yrs after he died? And then the letters of Paul ruined everything. My memory on this is very fuzzy.
Probably made it is easier for them authors if they didn’t know him irl. There’s a Shortpacked in which Historical Jesus says that that Paul guy has a lot to answer for.
The oldest letters of Paul were written about fifteen years after Jesus died,
The gospel according to Marc was probably written about twenty-five to thirty years after the crucifixion, Luke and Matthew were written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and I seem to recall there being papyrus fragments of the gospel according to John dating from around 100 CE.
IIRC those were the dates of composition when I was in university. Something may have changed since. 200 is more likely to be the date of the gospel of Mary Magdalen.
Not sure. The general assumption is that for a while, stories about Jesus and sayings of Jesus were passed on orally. Some stories had a basis in fact, and others less so: there’s a story in one of the gospels of Jesus having to pay the temple tax, and him telling Peter to go fish, and Peter catching a fish with a coin in its stomach that he could pay both Jesus’ and his temple tax with. That is moving into legend/fan fiction territory. Same with the sayings.
The stories and sayings are presumed to have been put down in writing, the stories in an earlier version of what we now know as the gospel according to Marc, the sayings in a book that’s now lost, which is referred to as Q (short for Quelle, which is German for “source”).
What makes me doubt whether either of these contained full-blown fan fiction is that probably some people who actually knew Jesus were still alive when they were written down, including family members. His brother James was a pretty important person in the church in Jerusalem. So anyone actually making major stuff up would run the risk of one of the eleven surviving disciples, or one of Jesus’ brothers calling bullshit on the story.
Then again, there’s that story about the fish…
They’re mentioned in some of the gospels, in some of the letters of Paul, in Acts and two of the later letters in the New Testaments (the letter of James and the letter of Jude) are attributed to them. And Dogma is brilliant, so why not post that Dogma link? 🙂
The consensus is that Mark certainly didn’t know Jesus, but he was temporally close enough to have known somebody who did (traditionally, the book is attributed to St Mark the Evangelist, who knew St Peter, but that’s not given much weight).
Close enough in time, but not that he necessarily did. Remember how quickly Christianity expanded beyond the initial core in those early days.
Even anyone who knew Jesus would have been relying on decades old memories at that point. How would “Mark” even have been able to tell that the people he talked too really knew Jesus, assuming he did talk to such people.
Think of how many more people claimed to be at Woodstock than actually were. 🙂 And that’s in an era with real record keeping.
Oral tradition is great in many ways, but it’s unreliable in many as well. Especially when it comes to details. Even within a single generation – stories get streamlined, remembered conversations get rephrased, new stories (or old ones) get tacked on. Especially dealing with a religious figure in a society as steeped in prophetic and mystical traditions as the middle east of the time.
I think untill Joss comes out to the people currently being interacted with in the comic, it is still acceptable to refer to Joss as ‘him’ if thats what the other people around ‘him’ still know ‘him’ as. When Joss tells them, then we can complain about people refering to ‘him’ as ‘him’.
No, incorrect. The only reason I know of to call a trans person by their wrong name and pronouns is to protect them from being outed in a dangerous situation, and we can’t out Joc because there’s a fourth wall between us and everyone she’s closeted from. Therefore, we should refer to her as ‘she’ always, in respect.
Granted, I’m not trans, so trans people can correct me on this, but I’m fairly certain this is the etiquette.
This. She’s a girl. It’s no more right for us fans to refer to her as boy for being closeted than it would be to refer to a gay character as straight because they haven’t come out to their parents yet.
…no. If you know, you call her by her actual gender. You, as the reader, run no risk of outing a comic character. The rules are different if you’re dealing with an actual person because of the risk of outing them, not because the words should be different.
Nah, it all depends on the type of message you want to send to the recipient. Oatmeal raisin flippin’ bird cookies will end up looking like diseased dicks when they’re done baking because everything melts together. If you want to send middle-finger-waving cookies, you’ll need a no-spread sugar cookie recipe for all your finger-definin’ bird flippin’ goodness (and, bonus! Most of those recipes taste like stale, dried out playdoh! 😀 ).
(Sorry if this shows up twice; the site ate my first one DX )
Even when there’s not some kind of bigoted reason to be awful, nothing more than an ordinary case of your sibling getting a burn in, he’s still an arrogant and terrible brother!
Congratulations, John! You’re not going to be the worst in this comic without bringing a lot more than that, but I think you’ve earned your placement round.
What’s the difference between a pastor and a writer?
Apparently a mustang.
Also, the old joke seems appropriate; what’s the difference between a table and a writer?
The table can support a family of four.
Varies greatly by pastor and church. Know about 4 pastors whose church buys them everything and, though the church usually retains ownership of houses and such, they’ll let them have them if they ask nicely. That being said, the other 93 pastors I know are not so lucky, and have to deal with consistent bartering for who is gonna pick up the repair cost of any patronage/church.
What’s the difference between a pizza and a writer*? A pizza can feed a family of four.
*I’ve always told this joke as raft guide, not writer, but I do love me some self-deprecating humor. My fave raft guide joke though is “What do you call a single raft guide? Homeless.” It gets me pity from my customers, hopefully.
So many blue eyes in this one. But yee! Joss is opening up ever so much! I don’t quite see her coming out of the closet, but for now it’s enough to let Joyce know that she isn’t the only one who isn’t a douche.
Wow, John gets more dickish even when he’s off-panel. Leaving your little brother* without a ride home because you got called out on being a hypocrite? Dick. Move.
*Yes, I know Jocelyne is a woman, but John doesn’t.
Electronic only cites were not acceptable back when I was occasionally helping on the SF Citations For the OED site. But that was years ago, maybe things have changed.
I’m pretty sure I can hear John saying: “Josh, if my car distresses your conscience so much, I’m not going to force you to ride in it.” Then he drives off, obnoxiously tooting the horn as he does so, which plays ‘Dixie‘, of course.
Oh, I hear you there. My first year in college, I got to find out just how desperate you have to be to only eat Mr Noodle, and also how very, very sick of Mr Noodle you have to be to not eat it when there is literally nothing else and you are honestly starving.
That stuff is awful; but it was ten cents a pack. The sale sign was like a beacon of hope from heaven, I tell you. I swear I heard angels singing.
Sorry, let me clarify: Did you mean the only person who’s supporting your family or the only person in your family who is LGBT but NOT the only one supporting them?
What’s the odds that Toedad has been a loud and see-how-wonderful-I-am-by-how-much-I’m-giving supporter of John’s adventures amongst the unchurched heathen furrners?
Because that wouldn’t influence a prosperity materialist in how he sees someone, not at all.
Girl, I know. Ain’t no respect for creative types. It’s better than before, but we’ve got a long road ahead to be respected with steady well paying jobs without a shit ton of hard work, chances, and luck.
Anyway, John confirmed for mega douche, and Joyce being surprised and happy that she has an ally is super adorable. I wonder if she was aware Jocelyne wasn’t marching in line with their parents? Their parents sure don’t seem to be.
Also, Jocelyne describing herself as the sole Brown who didn’t toe the party line makes me wonder about Jordan…
I find myself swaying between Jordan being some sort of liberal, or pothead, or anything more connected with the secular than the other Browns, and Jordan being even more religious and/or socially conservative than the Browns, the kind of guy even Ross would raise an eyebrow at.
Yeah…it’s just I usually associate liberal with pro LGBT and whatnot. Hmm, new possibility: Jordan is a fedora devil’s advocate liberal dudebro type that neither “side” of the Brown family particularly wants to be around?
I dunno why, but I just figured there was some kind of scandal associated with Jordan. The “got a girl pregnant at fifteen” kind, maybe. Or I dunno, him getting into some kind of music the parents weren’t cool with and then just being a “meh, whatever” teen, not going to church anymore….
Yes, he could be a dudebro who maybe drinks, smokes, engages in premarital hanky-panky, and isn’t religious, but is also non-supportive of LGBT people, and may be bigoted in other ways too.
I think I’m going to put my cards down on Jordan the scientist of some kind. Biology of some flavor or one of the more research-focused areas of medicine like virology. Given how Joyce reacted to Dina and evolution, that kind of Jordan-career might be exile-worthy. Heck, it could well be mutual: he might not want them around him any more than they want him around them.
Regardless of what the truth of Jordan is, I’m very curious about him.
Me too. I was expecting a scene change today, so I was smiling for more Joyce/Jocelyne conversation. Then the “sole Brown” made me think “Aw nuts – Jordan….”
It didn’t occur to me until yesterday that Joyce had no knowledge of just how progressive Jocylene was. She probably figured that her “other brother” was just as intolerant as John.
From the looks of it, Jocelyne’s been very good at avoiding familial conflict by keeping her mouth shut and letting them assume her agreement (see also: “I’m the favourite, precisely because they know the least about me”). She did make a comment to Joyce about “choosing your battles” back at Freshman Family Weekend, but I don’t think Joyce was really paying attention at the time.
Emperor, you cannot afford to be lulled into such a state. When they turn evil, AND THEY WILL, who’s going to mobilize the United States forces if not their Emperor?
We’ve all been speculating about where Jordan is going to be on the spectrum of Brown horribleness, but it seems that at least Jocelyne sees him as not being on her side. But maybe that just means he’s withdrawn or inexpressive, or at least leaves the possibility of his being somewhere short of vile.
Maybe he doesn’t toe the party line in some other respect, (which is why he’s exiled) so to Jocelyne, his position on LGBTQ stuff is unknown, and with the position she’s in it’s safer to assume he still toes the party line in that respect?
I may be spitballing in an attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt though.
It’s possible, of course, but that being the source of contention doesn’t quite mesh with “I can’t wait to tell everyone on our street that our daughter isn’t racist.” Don’t get me wrong, I could see Carol being unhappy about an interracial marriage, but I don’t see her admitting that. There’s got to be something else there.
Yeah Jordan is an enigma right now. I assume that Joss is saying this because it seems pretty obvious none of the Brown siblings really know a thing about each other and so she is probably just defaulting to worst case scenarios.
My bet is that Jordan is so completely estranged from the family that even the outsiders old and new (Jocelyne and Joyce) see him as an enemy, or at least the kind of ally they don’t want to have. (If Jordan is your ally it’s because Mom/Dad/family have shunned you utterly, sort of thing.)
Assuming, of course, that they even consider him at all, which it’s possible they don’y. It’s possible he’s so totally shunned/estranged that even the decent members of the Brown clan forget he exists. (He may want it that way, too.)
Jocelyn is publishing stuff under her own name her family has never seen.
They know she’s a writer, though. What kind of stuff does she publish as Joshua?
Entirely possible she doesn’t publish and her parents don’t go look.
If they ask, she could just say most of her writing contracts have been ghostwriting for companies and therefore she can’t tell them what she’s written.
A small-time column in a Christian paper under her dead name would make great cover. Otherwise, she must be doing what I used to do and remained vaguer on certain employments and projects I was working on that my family didn’t approve of.
Ok, we’ve got 2 cool Browns with Jocelyn and Joyce, 3 Bad Browns (Hank’s kinda iffy at this point), and one as-yet-to-be-determined Brown with this legendary Jordan character. Hopefully he’ll be cool, considering how he’s talked about, and it’ll be nice to have a nice, clean 1:1 ratio going on.
Well, respecting his daughter’s judgment and autonomy takes him a long way out of the sexist category of bigot, even if he still has other prejudices. And being willing to do that even on the topic of his prejudices goes a long way as well.
I wonder if he will be able to respect his other daughter’s judgment and autonomy? Probably a leap to far.
Jocelyn is a woman. You should be using feminine pronouns. And it’s actually very hurtful to trans people to be purposefully misgendered and deadnamed as you just did.
Sorry for coming down like a sledgehammer, one of my meatspace trans friends got some transphobic bullshit last night so my nerves are a bit raw on the topic. Short version of bare-bones-minimum-of-civil-interaction-with-trans-people etiquette: Refer to them as the gender they identify with, and don’t use their old name, unless explicitly asked to do so by the trans person in question. Under no circumstances should you ever refer to a trans woman or trans man as a “heshe” or “he/she.”
*hugs* to your friend. And def agree. He/she unless that’s the person’s pronouns is largely to be avoided as it’s used as an intentional slur by “classier” bigot groups who don’t want to be so crude as to use the t-slur.
So it can carry that even if that’s the furthest thing from your intent.
When I was in grad school I got like an entire box of store-brand mac and cheese for some obscenely low price at Sav-A-Lot because it was near expiration or something and that and cereal were all I ate for like a month.
The fact that I do not in fact now hate mac and cheese testifies to the power of Kraft Dinner.
I lived for two years in Taterville. All you have to do is go to the store and buy three sacks of potatoes. Then, cut out and grow the eyes in a small plot of land nearby of dubious ownership or your backyard. Congratulations, so long as you eat the skins and supplement with milk, you’ve just guaranteed yourself at least a year’s worth of food, since you can harvest every three months. Every three weeks buy a loaf of bread and a jar both peanut butter and jelly, and you’re set for low budget survival. Helped me lose my freshman fifteen.
I feel Jocelyn SO much.
I love they are getting closer. Yay~
(I am going to be a bit happy and not think about the horrible future Willis has planned for us….)
Religions major, Jewish Studies minor, Studio Art also minor, zero interest in being clergy. I would’ve been better off with English, but whatever, I was graduating into such a rough economy that it wasn’t going to matter, better to just read lots of cool old books, learn how to think, and do something employable in gradschool.
Just go the David Barton route, sell out, and write a bunch of historical lies that the mass market of Evangelical Christian Conservatism will pay big money to read.
Ehhhhh, I graduated with a master’s in a STEM field and still ended up in unemployment hell with the history majors, except that they had slightly better job prospects, because a lot of new businesses are hiring liberal arts majors to handle things like marketing and sales.
Honestly, in this new economy, we’re all fucked, so you might as well pursue your dream.
I’m so glad Jocelynne gets allies and more panel time! (Also, a lot of us — myself possibly included — need to review how to spell her name! I’ve spotted at least three different spellings in the comments section so far!) And I totally sympathize with her as a fellow English major. It’s a hard life we choose.
EXCELLENT PLAY ON WORDS, that dash — “less ‘came back’, and…” *oh god still can’t say “and more ‘came OUT'”*
I mean, I doubt she actually did come out to John right there in the parking lot. Didn’t seem nearly like the time.
But you *know* she’s thinking about that turn of phrase, and the writing knows we’re obsessing over this, and it’s just. Very well done, good use of transitional verbs.
speaking from experience, Joyce, being the oldest sibling doesn’t make you smarter. (I have an unfortunate case in the form of a brother from my dad’s first marriage. He never learns from his mistakes. And he has made a lot of them.)
Yes this. I get that thundor is supposed to be silly but it’s much too close (in fact, ‘I can’t remember your new name, I’ll just call you a nickname instead’ is super common and super invalidating irl).
Yeah, Joss in one thing, because it’s a nickname of her real name and respects it. I believe you have no malice in the Thundor, but in real life, I’ve had assholes just give me a whole “easier” name because my name in their opinion was “fake anyways”.
I really can’t stand my given name so I’m going by a nickname and a lot of people give me weird crap cause that’s how I introduce myself.
I don’t get what the big deal about “but your parents gave you that name” is, not only with transgender but in general. It’s just rude calling someone in a way they are uncomfortable with.
It’s been nice that she’s been discussed so much in this arc because I’ve finally locked in the spelling and don’t have to scroll up to check the tag anymore.
Age doesn’t always bring wisdom, you can have all the experience in the world but if your not open minded enough to learn from any of those experiences then all that age means jack shit. He’ll the fact that John just walked out and was like ” I’m the oldest that automatically means I’m right” show stubbornness, immaturity, ignorance, and down right arrogance. John has a lot of catching up to do on the real world experience. Hell Joyce hasn’t completely grown up yet but she’s at least matured enough to have her world view change a little bit in the short time she’s been away unlike John apparently.
Joyce’s words are most instructive about Joyce and her upbringing. We’ve seen it expressed elsewhere in the strip too: Joyce has been raised to believe that age automatically confers wisdom and authority. The idea that someone who is older than her doesn’t automatically know better than her is a very difficult lesson for her to learn and is one of the existential traumas with which she is currently struggling.
Oh we all know that’s going to involve lots of hugging and crying and squeeing. 😀
Sadly probably not this arc or atleast not till the drive back to college. I have this glorious picture of Josh walking back from the rest stop bathroom Joce.
I would rather Becky in like a truck stop bathroom, and then Joss walks in and doesn’t see her for a second and gets ready to do her thing, and then Becky is like, “uh, Josh?” and omg Joss’ face would be precious.
My (somewhat depressing) headcanon is that Joyce uses the long form because when she was younger she couldn’t make the “sh” sound, so it would always come out “Joss”, and her parents, afraid their middle son would become a woman*, or worse, a screen writer for a series about vampires or space pirates, insisted on “Joshua”.
*Yes, I know it doesn’t work that way! They don’t!
I love Joce so much. Pity she won’t be able to be much help in defending Joyce. She can try dancing around it, but it’s not going to inspire much confidence in their frazzled mother that gay isn’t contagious if the one telling her is the surprise LGBT daughter she didn’t know she had. On the other hand I remember something about this same woman really wanting a girl so who knows.
“Shouldn’t he be the smartest?”
As the eldest in my family, let me unequivocally state, “LOLZ, NAW.” We sometimes are expected to be. We usually WANT to be. A few of us, like John Brown, THINK we are.
Yeah, I have to say, that line really got me. You can tell Joss is a writer by the way she perfectly uses antithesis (well, besides the lack of stuff, that is)
Those four words are also where I stopped simply hoping that Jocelyne will soon give her real name to Joyce, and starting to think that it will actually happen.
Noooo! Writers are super-rich people with mansions and velvet bathrobes and smoking pipes even if they’re too health-conscious to actually smoke they can chew on them and fuzzy slippers and big fireplaces and big plush armchairs in front of those fireplaces and massive libraries full of all their bestsellers!
“For forever I was afraid I- I was alone, the sole Brown who didn’t toe the party line on this stuff.”
Interesting. So does this mean that Jordan does “toe the party line” with the rest of the family “on this stuff”?
There’s been a lot of speculation about Jordan’s estrangement from the Browns, and back when Joyce stood up to her parents over Dorothy, her dad likened her behavior to Jordan*, which makes it sound like his split with the rest of the family might be based either on him having different religious beliefs from the parents, or at least being more accepting of people outside their religion. But that could still leave room for him to be homophobic or transphobic.
Or is she referring only to the members of the family who are still on talking terms with the rest of the family? Or does she not even consider Jordan to be part of the family anymore?
In a related matter, in the strip I’m referring to (“Take After”) Hank has this to say about Jordan:
“He and your mother and I don’t always see eye to eye, but he’s still a good kid.”
Now, Hank may just be speaking only for himself (Carol is, of course, the more aggressive hard-ass in the family, from what we’ve seen), but even then, that doesn’t sound like a parent who is choosing to be estranged from his son. The parents think that they “created” the “Jordan situation” by either squeezing too hard/not hard enough**. What I’m taking way too many words to say is that it looks like he chose to turn his back on the Browns, not the other way around, but that might not be because he’s more progressive than them. For all we know, he may be just as/more fundamentalist as Carol/Hank/John (not certain I should put Hank on that list, but he is a major part of establishing the Brown status quo), just disagreeing with them on some other religious point.
Also, this is probably me reading wayyy too much into things, but I should point out that “He and your mother and I don’t always see eye to eye” could be interpreted to mean:
“Jordan doesn’t always see eye to eye with both Hank and Carol”
OR:
“Jordan, Hank, and Carol don’t always see eye to eye with each other.”
Now, obviously I don’t think Hank was just out of nowhere declaring that he and his wife didn’t agree on things, but it might be an interesting Freudian slip/bit of subtext.
…And it looks like other people have all speculated the same thing, but in significantly less bloated and rambling posts. Yep, that sounds about right.
I’m suddenly reminded of Fred “Slacktivist” Clark, lefty blogger from an evangelical upbringing. He’s a brilliant writer, like Mark Twain brilliant, but still needs a day job to pay the bills.
So based on what Jocelyne is saying, Jordan still toes the “Party Line” of the Browns even if he is the weird one. Or maybe just him not being there makes Jocelyne alone?
But there is a trend that homophobic conservative assholes tend to be closeted gays. I think there is even something on it in TV Tropes (but I ain’t setting foot in that pit of quicksand…)
Not as often as you’d think though- most of the time they’re really just straight assholes. It’s actually not as common as people think. It’s just the few cases it does happen to get really publicised and become extra famous in the end.
I think the number of anti-gay preachers who are gay exist sure. But they are exceedingly dwarfed by the number of straight bigots in their numbers- like has there ever been a comparison between the percentage rates? (Also the fact so called ‘ex-gay’ advocates are of course also a thing, who endorse conversion camps- until years down the line most of them say ‘nah, we’re still gay this is bs’)Wouldn’t surprise me if the % number of gay people was actually the same of even a bit lower than the national average. But odds being what they are- there was /always/ going to be a few.
But their numbers are blown out of proportion thanks to publication and the fact many people like to snigger at it as an idea.
I can get why people /think/ it’s more common than it is- when people go on about gay sex being this ‘temptation’ but honestly most people who parrot that stuff probably think that they’ve just never met a form of gay sex temptation themselves. They view it as like teenagers being tempted by cigarettes probably. Some people think it’s ‘cool and trendy’ like John says- like the secular world says- in his last comic but others don’t and never see cigarettes as this cool thing.
Hmm.
Though there are probably a lot of straight bigots out there (and unfortunately also some gay, lesbian, queer and trans bigots, it would be so nice to be exempt but we are not) I never could understand why someone with no personal beef in the subject should get so heated about it.
So my theory always was that most people would swing both ways if society didn’t make such a big deal of it. Therefore 80% of people who do feel sexual attraction feel attraction to the sex/gender they are not usually attracted to on occasion. Only a minority never is attracted to someone not belonging to their main target sex/gender.
(I’m actually unsure about the right wording here. Partly, because the German language does not come with this distinction, partly because gender expression is such a varied thing it sounds wrong to apply it to a basically binary topic).
Yeah, it happens. Of course it happens. But it just seems like a trend since it gets so blown up whenever it does. I’ve just always found it unfair for some reason, to the people who are struggling with being in the closet for whatever reasons they have, to point at somebody being openly homophobic and being like “yep, he’s gay.”
Lets see here, if John is Azula and Carol is Ozai and Joyce is Zuko…Does that make Dorothy the Avatar? Becky would Toph, and Sal would be Katara with Walky as Sokka.
Surely the same applies for Dorothy, though? Joyce’s prejudice towards atheism was just as bad as her prejudice towards gay people at the start of the comic.
I don’t know- Azula has also displayed rank foolishness herself. Like it was someone else who pointed this out to me but I really should have gotten it myself since I’ve worked on boats- that whole speech about the tides in her first episode in season 2 shows she’s really just a foolish child who thinks she can command nature. You /have/ to work with the tides when you work a boat and Azula really could have killed them all actually. It was the first indication of what she was: Intimidating, commanding, terrifying. But also a fool.
Then again wasn’t she like 14/15.
(Shame we never got a scene with a smashed up boat to drive this home though- she really only got incredibly lucky).
John doesn’t inspire the same presence granted and he’s likely twice her age but they both have displayed that they have no idea what they’re talking about- so one point in the ‘John is Azula’ meter?
Interesting analysis. But in fairness, she did successfully stage a coup to overthrow the largest stronghold in the ATLA world. That’s no mean feat. And probably requires a lot of intelligence. Ultimately, she makes several key mistakes that, along with her spiralling mental health, lead to her downfall, but she’s not lacking in strategic intelligence.
To me, Azula was always a girl with serious Daddy Issues. She wanted to be Ozai’s perfect child after Zuko’s banishment. To me, that’s why she went insane towards the end (although, arguably, she always had a personality disorder of some kind) – the realisation that she was just another tool to Ozai and that there was nothing she could have done to gain his approval.
That little crack in her otherwise calm attitude when Ozai informed her that he was leaving her in the Fire Nation really did hit that home. I’d say it was the final nail in the coffin.
Glad Joyce is learning this… being the “oldest” doesn’t make one better or smarter at anything. Trouble is, a lot of “oldest” siblings believe it DOES. (My own eldest sibling still thinks this)
It’s extremely cute, yes, but also extremely foreshadowing (but hopefully in a good way). Saying this is saying that Joyce is the -ally-. And Jocelyne quite possibly thinks that Joyce therefore should know soon who exactly she is an ally to.
Those four small words. So much meaning in them in itself. So much more meaning implied.
Of course it will be hard, but Joyce has recently acquired the ability to process information that doesn’t fit with her beliefs. She may not understand, but she will try.
[off topic] This comment section is amazing. It’s where I encountered the concept ‘gaslighting’. With your kind indulgence, I will try to create an example of how it might appear on a web forum:
[evil me] “That’s A! Not B! You have totally misread the comic. After all the work Willis put into it… Did you even look at the comments? Or do you just post whatever comes into your head?” [/evil me]
Victim does an angry archive trawl, quoting comments, linking links. Next day:
[evil me] Whoa, touchy much? Have a chill pill! And I never said that. How far down did you read? Anyway, that’s all yesterday’s news — so who cares? [/evil me]
Evil me enjoyed that way too much. Sorry. I’m going to go get chicken fingers now. By any menus necessary.
So as multiple people have pointed out either
a) Jordan is also homophobe, he’s just disapproved of for different reasons by the family
b) Jocelyne just really can’t know for sure where Jordan stands at the moment
But honestly I feel like under her own circumstances Jocelyne would do some digging with regards Jordan and /why/ he’s kind of a pariah. She’s older than Jordan for one thing if I recall anyway? So more in a position to know than Joyce what went down. She would also try to check later down the line. I’m certain of it. Just to see what would happen if she came out and if he could be a port of call for support. And Jocelyne would be desperate for the chance of support even if it’s only implied.
As it turns out he is not someone she sees as a source of support.
Honestly while there’s still a chance- I’d say it’s really all too likely she’d try and look into Jordan at least subtly, and she has found him wanting.
Joyce is the first family member Jocelyne could see having a continued sibling bond with even if she comes out.
I’m pretty sure that Jocelyne is terrified of coming out to anyone in the family. However, with regard to Jordan, I suspect that he may be out of contact with the rest of the family. In a country as vast as the United States, it is possible to vanish and not be found if you don’t want to be.
im confused, when/where is it stated that her name is Jocelyne and she’s trans??? im super happy that this is a thing im just wondering how the hell i missed something like that
I’m confused. Joshua, John, Joyce… and apparently one of the brothers is trans? Which one? Who’s the mysterious Jocelyne who keeps popping up in the comments? I read the entire comic but this has somehow gone under my radar.
I’ve been thinking about what Jocelyne is saying about John. When most of us think of ‘missionaries’, we think of people travelling foreign lands, preaching their beliefs and trying to make converts. I’m not entirely sure that is what John is. I’m thinking that he might actually be a ‘missionary’ only in terms of him being based overseas but I suspect that me may be closer to a franchise manager, overseeing their sect’s interests (including finance and property) in India.
If I’m right then he’s more a mid-ranking executive than a missionary in the traditional sense and this will lead to a very different mindset. As Jocelyne says, being an executive is a well-rewarded sort of position. John thus will think more like a white upper-middle class professional than a man who spends most of his time on the road and working with low-income people from developing world countries. That includes all that wonderful privilege and disdain for those whom he considers ‘freeloaders’ and ‘entitled’.
This may also explain why he has been so reluctant to let Joyce visit him in India. He has enough self-awareness to understand that she would never understand the difference between how she visualises the missionary lifestyle and the life that he probably leads. He probably thinks of it as ‘youthful naivete’.
Yes, that sounds like a call in the right direction.
I’m reminded of Francis of Assisi, nice guy with some great ideas, and the Franciscans who ended up the richest monks in Europe.
My background is small low-church Church of England with cross-overs into various sack-and-ashcloth sects who believe that having a church organ is “sinful.”
I’m an atheist, but I still get an uncomfortable feeling when any church starts dabbling in stocks-and-shares, having mid-level execs and their own fleet of aircraft, cars etc. I understand that US churches are tax-free. I understand in a rational sense, but in other ways, WTF? Then there are also things like the (now defunct) Magdelen Laundries in Ireland, and my anger meter starts going off the scale.
As you can see, it don’t sit right with me somehow, so I’m with Joyce on this and I’m no youthful naief.
That thing about preaching individual poverty and ending up with filthy rich monasteries actually happened to a lot of monastic orders, but I never heard of it happening to the Franciscans. Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Cistercian monks?
Fairly certain, but not totally. St Francis of Assisi certainly featured in a segment of Kenneth Clark’s TV series Civilisation – worth looking for a download if you’re into art history – which is why I remember it, but I can’t check as to whether or not it was the Franciscans or Cistercians I can’t say for certain. I seem to have deleted the series:(
The Basilica di Santa Croce has 16 chapels and is decorated by Giotto etc. Giotto wasn’t cheap:) That’s Franciscan for sure.
Even the executive sort of position aside, their sect of Christianity strikes me as very similar to the Calvinists. I recently picked up a book on Hawaiian history, and for about 20 years Calvinist missionaries had the run of the place. It is striking how much they viewed the native Hawaiians not as people that needed to be “saved”, but in contempt. I have a feeling douchebag Brown is similar, viewing anyone and everyone that does not match his view of religion or values in complete agreement in contempt.
So many baby blues, so few panels! No but really, they have cute eyes.
I like Jocelyn’s way of explaining this to Joyce. She chose to take the high road about it, and even if John doesn’t really deserve it, I can respect that.
Now I’m really wondering what happened with Jordan, that he’s estranged from the rest of the Browns. Did he convert to a different religion? Leave religion entirely and is now an atheist? Some other reason? I hope we get to see him eventually.
My inner anime nerd insists I point out that everyone is thinking of instant ramen here, where bears the same relationship to the real stuff as most instant foods do.
Writers have lots of stuff. Sure, none of it has monetary value, but it still qualifies as stuff. Who gets more diverse and annoying feedback than writers? Tolkien got constant visits from fans, especially during dinnertime. Sometimes with an oversized Frodo among the crowd.
I swear my biggest question about DoA is now, and forever will be until answered, “what about Jordan?”
What is Joss saying here? That Jordan is ALSO a horrible douche like the Brown mainstream, just in a different way? That Jordan is actually a cool, progressive dude (or whatever) but since he skedaddled as far from the Browns as he could (a reasonable course of action, that Joss herself is hampered from doing because writer) she still felt alone in non-horribleness?
During the “Just hanging out with my family” chapter, Jocelyne is the one saying that Jordan is “too Jordan” to be visiting Joyce. Later in the same storyline, Hank says that while Jordan and he don’t see much eye to eye, he’s still a good kid.
And it’s Carol that, early in this storyline, definitely thinks of him as a “black sheep” more than anyone else. She’s thinking that they should’ve squeezed harder (read: used more abusive techniques in the name of Jesus) to avoid him getting estranged from the family; and that now they need to squeeze harder on Joyce to prevent the same from happening with her.
So based on these things, here’s my SPECULATIVE GUESS: Jordan is probably a fairly good guy, with a normal amount of flaws. I don’t think he’s particularly fundie, because Carol is clearly the one that likes him the least.
But he chose to cut the ties with his family, and that included Jocelyne. There are several reasons why this could be. Jordan might think that Jocelyne is “them”, considering how she’s been hiding her true self from everyone up until now. Or Jordan might have suspected/known Jocelyne would be on his side, but deemed that it was best to just cut the family ties cleanly off, because even seeing the ones he likes will remind him of the ones that hurt him*. Drastic, sure, but somewhat understandable.
*Yeah, I’m assuming that at the very least Carol must have hurt him. Maybe also Hank to a lesser degree, before starting to grow up.
oooh. i like that line. “we are what we experience.” although a lot of people go through the same experiences, and change differently. it’s still a good phrase for this situation.
It shapes one significally, but it’s up to oneself to make other experiences, get new knowledge or try to understand different points of view.
That’s how I see it.
Idea. Joyce, now that she’s seeing a slice of the real world, decides she doesn’t necessarily want to spend her whole life being a stay-at-home mom. Joyce switches her major…to become a social worker to help kids like Becky.
FWIW, I’ve long wondered if Joyce will continue to pursue a career in education and become an teacher in a public school as a way of rejecting the isolationist aspects of her upbringing.
Panel 1:
Oh man, the absolute tightrope Jocelyne has been used to walking with her family is on display here. Jocelyne makes one pushback type comment about how much her brother is being an ass to her sister and she’s stranded with her and probably regarded at least partially as being as fallen. That’s a claustrophobic place to be and heart-breaking when taken as part of a whole.
Also, yay, Jocelyne on doing that and coming back. That was such a big risk on her part and it’s nice to see her come out of that deep cave she’s felt she’s needed to live in with family in order to support her sister and her almost sister.
Panel 2: Joyce’s shock here is battle-worn. Like, of course she’s surprised to see someone in her family who’s not antagonistic or “getting to tolerance”. As far as she’s concerned, this is like spotting a unicorn in the flesh.
Panel 3: Oh, that line and that body language. This is her getting so close to just coming right out and saying that she’s “family” in the queer sense as well. And I look forward to Joyce putting the pieces together on things when Jocelyne does feel safe enough around her to come out. And it really does summarize everything in a bow.
Mainly, that of course Jocelyne and Becky have been on the other side from birth, being who they are and trying to survive best they can. And Joyce, through empathy and trauma, has come fiercely over to their side to support them with all her heart. It’s a beautiful summary of the value of good allyship.
Panels 5 and 6: Oh, man, Joyce is having how she was raised shattered here. As a young woman, she was told all her life that her older brother would always be smarter and more wise and she should head his moral advice, especially when he’s in good standing with the church. And yet she’s realizing he’s just an ignorant bigot.
And Jocelyne on people being what they experience gets to the rub of it. That when you are X or you have friends who are X, it becomes hard to cling to the bigotries you’ve been steeped in all your life with the same fervor.
It’s basically what Becky has discovered. When you find out you like girls, it’s hard to believe in a God who hates sexuality more than anything else in the world with the same passion. And when you find out all the toxicity and experience it directly, it’s hard to believe the social rightness of oppressive systems.
And that final bit on John mostly experiencing having stuff gets to how he has wrapped himself in safety and privilege. Pushing himself away from any life experiences that might ask him to seriously empathize with the poor, with the young, with the queer, and with the traumatized and suffering. Letting all of the social awfulness thus go unquestioned.
Panel 6: Yep, Jocelyne is a freelance writer (so no benefits, inconsistent employment, constant need to promote herself to keep from starving, and a low pay grade that mostly keeps one in ramen meals on a good day, especially when starting out).
And that’s the thing that’s gotta be haunting a lot of her choices. Knowing that a bad month could wipe her out because she doesn’t have savings, understanding how most supplemental jobs in Indiana would legally be able to fire her for being trans (and would), and knowing that her housing is wholly dependent on her landlord not knowing she’s trans (it’s also legal to deny housing to a person based on their gender identity). Not to mention all the other stuff she faces for just being trans in today’s society.
When you’re close to the raggedy edge, it’s the most terrifying thing to risk losing the safety net of family, because being without that safety net means running a serious risk of becoming homeless during a bad month, especially if you live paycheck to paycheck or slightly less than that like Jocelyne.
Now I REALLY wonder about Jordan:
At first I thought maybe he married a Jehovah’s Witness or some other non-mainstream sect, or perhaps was an atheist.
Or, maybe he had a child out of wedlock or some other sin.
Now I feel little sick wondering if maybe it isn’t something truly horrible, ala the older molest-y Duggar who was preying on family friends as well. What if he was molested by a member of the clergy/community and went on to do something similar with a member of the community, something abused children have been known to do. (NOT stating that all abused abuse, only that the cycle has been known to perpetuate itself, esp. in those shame-ridden denialist cultures where the victim never receives real therapy, only the church-approved kind that blames the victim…)
“Joyce, our brother kills people for money. I really don’t think that we need his brand of help.”
“Oh, so he’s kinda a ‘Deadpool’, yo?”
“Sort of, Becky. Imagine The Punisher but less sane and with fewer ethics and a fetish for sparkly precious objects… On the other hand, he’s excellent for breaking the ice at parties.”
The thing about Hank’s seal of approval is that, well, frankly, Hank’s also not that great. It’s just that the majority of the Browns (minus Joyce and Joss) are so horribly shitty that Hank comes out great.
I call it the Pope Effect: this pope is also a pretty terrible person, but the ones before him were so much worse that anything that’s even barely progressive (or simply not regressive) fills many people with wonder.
Annnnd John just level up to high king douche of the Baggites. I mean, I can understand storming off and out of a conversation about a subject I personally and deeply have ideological differences about. I disagree with his views and think he is kind of a douche, but I can at least see myself doing the same thing (say, if I was arguing for gay rights to a table of hardcore christians).
On the other hand, stranding my kid brother (unknown at the time to really be my kid sister) because she said some mean things about my fancy new ride…that’s on a whole other plane of douchebaggery.
Funnily enough, that’s the only thing about Jonathan so far that I don’t immediately object to. I mean, it’s not something that I would do, but I can understand the line of reasoning of “well, if you object to my car so much, then maybe you shouldn’t ride in it.”
But Jonathan is such a horrible person, does it really matter WHY we judge him so? It’s not like the man hasn’t given us a plethora of reasons to choose from.
I know this is a horrible thing to contemplate happening to an evangelical family.
But I can’t stop thinking that Jordan might be… might be…
Jesus this is hard…
A Catholic…
One simple way for Jordan to be at outs with Carol and Hank AND not be on Joss’s side either is if he went a more traditional route of booze, NASCAR, siring illegitimate children on teenage girls, etc. The rest of the family wouldn’t approve of him and he wouldn’t approve of them, especially his sissy expletive deleted brother.
I’m not saying that’s the case, I’m saying it’s a simple scenario that would fit the facts we have so far. There are lots of ways to hate your religious parents AND your counter-culture siblings.
I’m guessing Jordan either married a woman who had a divorce before she met him and otherwise is still a fundie or he converted to another religion that advocates transphobia.
Unlikely but one of the few things I haven’t seen guessed- does not agree with parent’s views and split with them because of that, but outed Joss to someone(s), perhaps mutual friends (on purpose or not).
Yeah, but then she followed John out of the restaurant during the argument. I understand why, but Joyce didn’t. She probably thought that Jocelyne was on John’s side and was only being nice to Becky out of politeness. It must have been a pretty nice surprise to hear Jocelyne stating clearly that Joyce doesn’t need to spend time trying to convince her to be a good person, like she’s doing with Hank and trying to do with the rest of her family. That she already thought Joyce was doing the right thing, and that she supports both her and Becky and doesn’t think they’re being led astray by the evil secular college and atheist friends.
I *think* that what Joss means there is that since Jonathan is a heterosexual christian and that gives him no problems, he can’t understand why other people won’t just be heterosexual christians and so they have no problems as well. If I understood correctly, transposing it to your case would mean that you would be able to understand the difficulties that other sick, jobless people go through.
Which, honestly, is totally adorable and I just want to protect naive little Jocelyne forever, because it’s not like plenty of poor Americans don’t vote Republican.
P.S.: I like how the comment editor recognises “christian” but thinks that “christians” is a typo, as if saying “ok, one person I can accept, but there are multiple people who believe this?” On the other hand, since you’d be hard-pressed to find two christians who believe the same thing, it’s probably accurate.
As a chronically sick and currently unemployed person I want to say how much I hate it when people say “bad stuff makes you stronger”.
It doesn’t. After some time it makes you bitter and depressed. It makes you lie to other people, cause you get really unpretty response like “ugh, you’re always sick”.
Please don’t think that I mean to antagonize you for that comment. It’s probably meant to be nice.
*appropriate supportive gesture* As a fellow struggler, it was meant to be kind and non-dismissive, I promise.
I feel ya on this, [boring exposition of my own life that explains why I relate to you quite a bit] we’re in a very similar boat. I’m pretty bitter and depressed myself. Pointing out silver linings or reminding folks of their own agency, in a way I’d hope to hear from an ally (or a way my therapist has helped me), is part of fighting that personal bitterness and paying it forward to someone who needs it.
That’s not a flawless approach though and sometimes the best intentions of support can completely miss the mark (oh my god have I been on the receiving end of that). I think you have an incredibly valid point. Thanks 🙂 I’m like…. two for two on trying to validate someone here and then hurting someone else in the process. Trying to learn on my feet as a noob to the comments–the discussion here is so much more sensitive and thoughtful than I’m used to online and I like it very much even though I mess it up a bit sometimes.
I’m really sorry you have to put up with that too.
I really, really hope this doesn’t turn to Joyce breaking Jocelyne’s heart by, if Joss comes out here, going “What? You’re a girl? Hahaha that’s not a thing!” Since she hasn’t had experience with trans issues yet (I’m assuming from one comment she made that she’s unaware of Carla being trans yet).
I mean, she’s obviously learned and become much more accepting since her kind of dismissive beginnings, but it’s still new territory for Joyce.
That sounds more like Becky (remember her talk with Billie?) than Joyce. Even at the start of the strip, as much as I dislike Joyce then (and she still hasn’t climbed all the way up), that sounds too openly hurtful to come out of her unless it’s a response to being antagonised (like with Sarah).
My example made here might be bad – but Joyce not immediately understanding what Jocelyne means if she comes out, and accidentally saying something dismissive or hurtful because she doesn’t understand, was more of the jist of the conversation I was trying to use there.
But yeah that’s also something Becky would probably more literally say.
“Life, like gender, is not binary.” is what Leslie said in class once, as part of the first lecture, where she reminded everyone that they still had so many things to learn, no matter if they thought they already knew everything.
I think the ‘wrong’ one sticks because it’s successfully illustrative, so seems to make sense. Kinda how people always say “for all intensive purposes” instead of “for all intents and purposes.”
I hope a writer can afford 3 orders of chicken fingers. From the child’s menu, of course. Otherwise, a lot of people are going to be very disappointed.
Depressing but tentative prediction: Jocelyn is going to come out to the family in order to deflect their attention away from Joyce as the “disgraced” child, destroying her cover but making it so her little sister still gets to go to college and look after her best friend.
Ever since this meeting started I’m like “and then Jocelyn tells Joyce and Joyce be quiet for a sec and then she’s just like “OMG I have a bigger sister now?!” and everyone’s really happy.”
Jocelyn deserves to be happy, Joyce deserves to be happy, Becky definitely deserves to be happy. These three are gonna paint the town red, THAT’S ALL I WANT
Completely off topic but can I just say that the devastation that would result from the Brown sisters giving puppy dog eyes at the same time would be Biblical?
This storyline couldn’t come at a better time, because my WICCAN aunt with two bi daughters has shared an image on facebook that says “I don’t care what your son ‘identifies as’, he doesn’t belong in the bathroom with my daughter.” with her own words of ‘true that’ tacked onto it. I’ve now commented on it, explaining that a transgender woman has the same right as any other woman to use the woman’s restroom, but experience tells me this is gonna end like Joyce’s conversation with John.
I mean, it’s counterculture and all, but the Wicca I have exeperience with did have this odd undercurrent of a strong gender binary. It’s a shame, but I guess not all that suprising.
Most I’ve encountered are very accepting, but those are also from my generation versus my aunt who was born in the 60’s. So, good point. Plus, my aunt is Republican and borderline Christian while parading around with a Wiccan title so… My aunt’s not the best example.
Uuuugh, I hate pagans who are like that. (My subculture, so I take it personally when they show their ass.) A lot of groups cling to this “moonblood/wombyn/whatever” bullshit. I was so happy to find my local group was explicitly and vocally inclusive of trans/nb people, especially since we have a lot of older people.
So far, no word from my aunt but there is a random guy commenting with me now, citing a news article from the ‘conservativetribune’ website and insisting that there aren’t lots of transgendered people so why must we change our laws to accomodate every little group that has a gripe? His main argument boils down to ‘but little girls might use the restroom, and there’ll be a DICK around them!’.
‘Joshua’ is Jocelyne. She is not out to her family yet so they do not yet know that their ‘brother’ here in the booth with them is actually their sister. We the audience do, so we don’t use the name Joshua in the comments or tags. We use her chosen name.
Jocelyne is the name that “Joshua” goes by as a writer. She is transgendered, but not yet out to her family so they don’t know about the name that she’s chosen for herself. Since Willis is aware of it though, after discreetly dropping the first indication that Jocelyne was…well, Jocelyne, he re-tagged when she popped up in the comic with her name and currently tags her as Jocelyne.
Anthropomorphic books, furniture, lamps, and musical instruments (the concertina)…. I think I know where Paul Reubens got some of his inspiration for what became “Pee Wee’s Playhouse”.
“Follow the leader, Jesus!” Okay, I get that the comma is supposed to make the sentence mean “Follow the leader, [who is] Jesus!”, but I can’t help but here it as the girl telling Jesus to follow someone else who is the leader.
My one friend’s parents named their fifth kid with the first initials of their first four children. The letters even go in the reverse order of the first four births.
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“also, can I borrow ten dollars”
Appropriate gravatar is appropriate
Not anymore!
I wonder how much money Joyce has on her.
Shes a college student so she’s probably not much better off. Can confirm, am in school, do only have $12 left for food for the week.
To be fair, Joyce probably has an allowance.
For now.
I think both Joyce and Jocelyn may for the moment get a small allowance from their father (can’t picture Carol as a working mother) which I think would likely continue at the minute even with everything even if maybe Hank has to keep it a secret from Carol
Or a mandatory freshman foodplan which are generally pre-paid at the beginning of the term/year.
Well, after all that swearing she did earlier she should have at least $20. Although judging by the face she made when Sarah (or maybe Joe, I can’t remember) offered it to her, I’m doubting she actually took it.
How guilty was Billie feeling the last time she saw her?
Yeah, there’s so much tension, will she or won’t she be able to get chicken fingers?
I’m hanging on to this arc eventually getting to chicken fingers.
Give the people what they want, Willis!
There is just so much suspension!
There’s probably going to be a pic coming up with him lounging on a throne made of chicken fingers, scarfing down more chicken fingers, and laughing at us.
Yeah, and it makes my ride hella smooth!
or;
The solution will be precipitating like crazy!
Well, you just opened the floodgate. Congratulations.
Well, now *I* want chicken fingers.
This can’t possibly end well.
Well it either ends well for you or it ends well for the chicken.
Pretty sure it didn’t end well for the chicken either way.
Somewhere there are fingerless chickens wondering what happened.
That chicken’s got one finger left. And it’s making sure we see it.
Reminds me of what they did to Dapper Duck in the very, very creepy comic “Three Fingers.” “A duck…. got…. feathers, not fingers”
No chicken fingers for chu! >:O
Honestly, that’s the greatest way to start off the comments section.
Pretty dang solid.
I’d have gone with, “…and a little more came out.”
Or “and A LOT less ‘joshua’.”
Ooh, good one!
I told this to my writing professor then he laughed and then he cried.
Yeah, never ask a teacher what it’s like to have money.
May I please add that it is one of my greatest joys in life to finally find the panel that, whatever your newest gravatar is, is from?
Buddy can you spare a dime?
The wait staff must be getting itchy fingers by now …
Lets just add “Can I borrow 10 Dollars” to the end of every comic from now until it gets really awkward.
Face?
Yeah, she’s broke. Kinda obvious. :p
Yaaaaaay, Jocelyne!
says probably 90% of the comments all week
*looks at username*
Jeph Jacques, is that you?
My money would be on Joel Watson, Willis’ Con-Husband
HAHAHA, I’LL NEVER TELL
As a trans girl, I am in love with her. I was practically begging for her to appear in more strips. I am not disappointed.
Agreed. Willis is doing a great job with this character I identify strongly with. I can’t make ECCC this year – again – but I wish I could so I could do a nice understated Jocelyne cosplay.
Joss is a real cutie and I love her, especially cause she’s a writer 😀
But I wonder, how do you get approved for gender reassignement (is that the right term? I just dictionary-d it) in the US?
In Germany it’s a long process with therapy and involves dressing up as your prefered gender in public, coming out to your peeps … that wouldn’t go too well for Joss 🙁
So, I’ve been living under a rock, apparently. In-comic everyone calls the character Joshua, and in the comments here, everyone calls them Jocelyne. I don’t quite understand what’s going on.
Jocelyne is a trans woman, but she is in the closet to her family and most of the characters in the strip, who all refer to her as Joshua/he.
i think that last panel could work for artists to.
Writers are artists. Their medium is words.
“Is that something you writers really say to each other?”
Hey, writers are artists, sure, but they also have their own word for their specific type of arting. Let the drawing people have this one.
So do painters, illustrators, sculptors, musicians, weavers, woodworkers, glassblowers… shall I go on? As I said, my medium is words; I know lots of them.
cept if someone says they are a painter alone instead of artist most just think of a house painter.
For the musicians, artist is for me an insult (but performer is not). There are way too many people who call themselves (and that labels call) artists and just say two unrelated sentences in a mic which you hear only after a bunch of voice corrections – that, to me, is way too conceptual. I remember month of programming gigs for a place where people wanted “this artist” to come. You could recognize those who couldn’t make music for their lives. The other humbly (or not humbly) themselves musician.
Independent Film and Video Game makers. Yes, there are artistic interactive audio/visual computer programs. Some of them are actually okay “games”, but it’s not assured.
true but by saying writer or artist you differentiate your medium like a sculptor or something helps people know what type you are.
And I, a graphic designer, am a musician.
And Dwayne The Rock Johnson is a politician.
Why do we lie to each other?
If it’s a form of creative expression it’s art.
IT can be an art form. It takes practice to keep racks of switches and patch panels from looking like this.
aka the hardware version of “spaghetti code”
Such beauty, such potential anger …
I am an arms dealer, dealing weapons in the form of words.
Did you come up with that?
All writers are artists but not all artists are writers. Its like rectangles and squares.
“All writers are artists”
If you output as writer becomes so predictable that i can be replaced by a computer, then maybe not?
Some writers these days are artificial!
hits like button
These days, just about anyone who has gone to college and doesn’t have rich parents to pay for it.
I actually have a good job, but 7 years after graduating I’m still paying off loans.
God, I am so sorry. I hope your loans are paid off in full soon, because god… 7 years is far too long.
About 1.5 more years.
‘snot so bad. I had the misfortune of graduating in spring of ’09, just after the economy took a dive. Even with a useful degree, jobs were scarce in my area. Had to move out of state to find one, and that cost a ton, so I had to get an extension on the loans for a while.
But now I’m back home, paying it all off, got a nice place, and a decent savings. It just took a couple years longer than it should have to get there. Plenty of people my age in worse situations.
Why I went to grad school. Jobs in clean tech were scarce to begin with and only got scarcer with the Harper Majority.
*insert obligatory anti-trudeau rant here*
Can’t complain too much. Got my current job as a direct result of grad school and my current job is effing awesome so it really was for the best. Not at all where I ever thought I’d end up but I wouldn’t trade it.
I’m in the US. I first took out loans in 1998. I may pay them off by the time I’m 50 or 55. Maybe.
I had loans from what you would call HIGH SCHOOL.
Took 16 years to pay off mine and my wifes.
“Meanwhile, in Europe…”
Seriously, it feels good to live in a country where you don’t need to spend half your life paying off student loans.
Yeah, but everybody knows you’ve got, like, 300% taxes.
Which pay for everyone’s free education, healthcare, excellent public transportation, welfare allowance….
I’d take it is what I’m saying.
and oh gods musicians
so much with musicians
(said the musician)
(who has a day job but still)
Don’t be like that Jocelyne, you HAVE all the best and cheapest ramen!
Also, happy birthday to Edward Starsmith’s brother!
And I totally posted this before remembering to check the mouseover text. >_>
Jocelyne, crushing college debt counts as ‘stuff’.
Well, I dunno about “best”, but definitely cheapest! And in the end, that’s what really counts.
Ohhh self burn
those are rare
Of course. Jordan sees his possessions as “worthiness,” and thus validation that he is right.
John*
Jordan hasn’t shown up yet AFAIK
you mean John? Cause Jordan is the “strange one” we haven’t seen yet.
Is it weird that the Brown family not liking him makes me like him even though we have no idea what he’s like?
He’s a serial killer.
Yeah, that’s the thing. We don’t even know why he’s the black sheep. For all we know, he was even more extreme about religion than the rest of his family.
I had hopes for Jordan, but panel 3 here puts a damper on them.
Was going to make a separate post about this, but yes, this is something we’ve learned in this strip. The reason for Jordan not being around doesn’t have anything to do with his views not aligning with his family, so that narrows things down a bit.
Drugs, perhaps
Yeah. It either means Jordan disappeared soon after his apostasy, or whatever flavor of “rebel” he is, he still retains enough toxicity about queer issues for Jocelyne to consider him unsafe.
You can still have hopes for Jordan, I think! Him being completely and utterly gone, practically forgotten by most of the family, means that Jocelyne is alone. Hank’s opinion is that Jordan is ‘still a good kid’ and Joyce takes after him, remember, and another thing to remember is that Jocelyne toes the family party line in public as much as she can let herself, so as to keep the peace and her family.
If Jordan left the family because of the disagreements between him and his parents, I doubt he’d have been open to hearing from any of his siblings either. If Jocelyne tried to reach out, if she even knows where he is, she might have been rebuffed for reasons that have more to do with Jordan’s unwillingness to risk getting dragged back to Fundietown than anything else.
Depends on what Jocelyne means with “this stuff”!
Jordan may be OK with traditional gender roles and cis-sexism, but may have found other issues with fundamentalist religion.
On other words he’s an atheist MRA!
Yeah, i was thinking of that. Someone who’s rejected religion and may even consider themselves more liberal, but who has not unpacked as much of the toxicity about queer issues as Jocelyne would like.
or… CATHOLIC…
Considering how supportive Carol and John are of Ross, that they would dissaprove of Jordan for being more extreme doesn’t really sound like the case
I never said which religion. Might be a Scientologist.
Which is why “Too extreme for the Browns” is so scary.
I don’t actually think that’s the case. But I find the idea amusing.
When he hunts gay people with a gun, he’s not even trying to save anyone’s soul. Just what the hiffle, son, you need to have post-hoc religious justifications for your heinous actions!
To be fair, I don’t think Joyce, Jocelyen, or their father dislike him. Only the Mother and John which would make the majority of the Brown family like him.
As I’ve been reading this sequence of strips I’ve come to suspect that, despite the hierarchy they’re supposed to follow, that Mrs. Brown is the real boss in the family.
We don’t know about Jordan. We don’t even know why Jordan is the black sheep of the family.
You’re thinking of John.
That’s prosperity gospel for you!
Ah, prosperity gospel. The old foe. I must now reinforce myself with liberation theology.
Yeah, if you can practice a form of your religion that preaches good works and tolerance and understands how to coexist with science, free thought, and other people, more power to you.
Praise be to Megareverend and CEO Oliver for bringing us the gospel of Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption! Plant your seed* and you will surely have good thoughts and hope showered upon you**!
* Not that kind!
** Not you specifically, but we’re vague enough to interpret any way you want.
… K see, as someone who wants to be a writer later in life, that’s somewhat disheartening.
what’s wrong with ramen?
Nothing, they just were never meant to be the whole meal. Ramen by itself is like eating pasta without the sauce or meatballs and veggies. I like to add roasted veggies and a beaten egg to mine.
The best is a few handfuls of spinach boiled in the stock for just a few seconds until it wilts, two eggs and a few shrimp :3 Relatively cheap (around 2.50 CAD) for a relatively healthy meal
Hit an asian supermarket sometime. They have types of “ramen” with four separate components not counting the noodles and the optional red pepper.
I pound on a tube of Planter’s peanuts and add the crushed peanuts to mine.
Naw, don’t be! 😀 this proves you’ll be a cool righteous dude! (Or dudette! )
See? Everyone thinks so.
Aw, don’t be like that! You have so much to look forward to, like rejection letters, editors, and eventually drinking yourself to death and/or starving in a garret!
But hey, at least that whole consumption thing has been (mostly) phased out in the past 150 years! 😀 😀 😀 😀
/sobs in corner
As an artist, I’d say that on the whole it’s worth it. …But having a back-up plan in mind wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
My back-up plan was becoming an interpreter (I already knew the language). Too bad that two-year interpreting degree took me 5 years to get.
Nah, it’s worth it. (I mean… says the chick with the day job. But I still write and am working on getting published! Just… around the day job.) As my old creative writing professor once said: “I have more stories than you have rejection letters. I will outlast you.” (This was rejected at two writing magazines that turned down his work, and now he’s a published author and they’re both out of business, so…)
Anyway. My point is, frozen veggies are super cheap and you can add them to ramen to make it healthier and more filling.
@hovertext: Just transfer at Kickstarter Junction, then full speed ahead to Webcomicsburg!
I mean, you knew what you were signing up for.
Don’t worry. Ramentown IS Funkytown!!!
Lol.
ummm.
Anyone spare a dime?
all aboard the cliffhanger-for-transgender-reveal-hype train!
WOOT WOOOOT!
Choo choo!
A bit unlikely for her to come out to them on purpose, since Joyce is terrible at lying and Becky is as loud as possible, but hey she has surprised me before, so you sure never know.
Well, yeah, but if Joyce asks to see her writing, Joss’ll have to make that choice whether or not to show her the site she texted Ethan. And Becky can keep secrets; a lot of the time she’s even used her loudness to distract people from being too nosy, hasn’t she?
Good point. Great deflection skills. Maybe Jocelyne will keep feeling them out. I think we all would love to her getting outta there.
Yeah, Becky is the best at keeping secrets. Joyce is the one who is famous in the family for being unable to lie to authority figures. So I suspect if she does come out, it’ll be a surreptitious nod to Becky when Joyce is in the bathroom.
I am pretty sure you could trust Becky perfectly with a secret like this, she knows all to well what it’s like if your family doesn’t accept who you are. She might act rude sometimes but she’s not stupid or mean.
Joyce will not have to lie to her family much, I fear, since it’s all breaking apart over the evil-gay-best-friend-issue and “we’re taking her out of college” discussion she overheard.
Also she would have to be asked about it for having to lie and “Joshua” is still the favourite kid, right?
I’m not sure Becky even knows what transgenderism is, considering she didn’t even know that bisexuals exist.
Heck, we don’t even know if Joyce knows that bisexuals exist.
You mean, she asked for and collected the brochure, but didn’t read it?
You know, it occurs to me that Joyce has never actually dealt with trans issues before. While I have no doubt she’d be accepting in the end, she might not even know what being trans is or struggle to understand the concept, which could potentially create some drama in the short term.
Yup. On the other hand, I think Jocelyne knows exactly what to expect from her little sister, so as long as she get acceptance she can handle the clueless.
Actually, I think there will be an outburst on the line of “You mean I have had a sister MY WHOLE LIFE I didn’t now about it!!!!!”
Or even cuter:
“So… You’re suddenly my sister now?”
“Joyce, I’ve been your sister your entire life.”
D’awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
MY HEARRRT
“I just… couldn’t tell you because… you know…”
“WELL NOW I’M MAD AT MY PARENTS”
It better be this, exactly, verbatim. Gets the point across to anyone who doesn’t understand pretty much 100% and also is super cute.
By this point any comic that has Joss in it is a cliffhanger for her coming out for the readers.
Cue the scene transition!
Yeah, this is an ideal moment to jump back to IU and a very awkward conversation between Danny and Amber
With the PhD in English Lit, you get first in line for the Shift Manager at Starbucks!
Is it weird that that is actually my job and I like my job? (Granted, I’ve already paid off my student loans and have no dependents except my dogs)
Not weird at all! If you’re content with the work and feel secure financially, then that’s all right! 👍
I think I just get lowkey annoyed when I feel like my job is getting dismissed. I work really hard, and I like my job, and don’t see anything wrong with it. People like their coffee and I like my little shop and being part of the neighborhood community. We have an apartment complex right behind my shop, and a military base down the road, and everyone hangs out in the shop and knows me. A few customers even got me presents for my birthday here recently.
if you sound alright with your work then what anyone says about it just doesn’t matter. Besides it’s just bad stereotyping of being a coffee shop worker that interferes with their view of your job.
That, and the fact that Lapin is actually happy being there probably makes the whole store run more smoothly, the customers enjoy it more, and the staff has a much less soul-crushing experience as well. If you’re making all those thing happen every day, reaching out and reducing the amount of bad feelings floating around in the world by proxy, that’s something worth being proud of, even if people will turn their nose up at your career.
@Jesswitt, yes — tho, at the same time, they still shouldn’t say it and even more shouldn’t even think it, it’s wrong on multiple dimensions.
Nah, it’s not weird – I have a friend with a master’s in musicology, and is currently working as a starbucks barista, a job she is very happy with, and seems set to stay in for at least the medium term future. My current goals for once I finish my creative writing MA are pretty much “get any job so that I can achieve independance” – I’m currently in a place where I’d happily work in a shop, or a similar scaled job.
Your worth doesn’t come from your career, not even slightly.
Yeah, the idea that how you make money is the primary definer of who you are and what you love is just an artifact of capitalist ideology. It’s absolutely fine if your job is just a way to support yourself and your passions aren’t your primary source of income (or even any source of income). Your contribution to the market is not your most important characteristic.
Pff. Starbucks shift leads require at LEAST a PhD in European History.
Delicious, delicious ramentown.
so tell us, willis. what kind of ramentown do you build with our money? 8)
The kind with twin babies, apparently.
whoa! for the discerning palate, i guess…
“I don’t have any money, Joyce, I’m a WRITER, like JESU… oh wait that doesn’t work at all where was I going with this?”
Jesus wrote stuff? Or maybe he dictated and others wrote for him?
I was under the impression that Jesus mostly had stuff written about him.
I think gospel of Mark could’ve been written by somebody who meet him, but gospel of John was like 200 yrs after he died? And then the letters of Paul ruined everything. My memory on this is very fuzzy.
Something like that. That all counts as being written about him, though, even if the people never met him.
Probably made it is easier for them authors if they didn’t know him irl. There’s a Shortpacked in which Historical Jesus says that that Paul guy has a lot to answer for.
The oldest letters of Paul were written about fifteen years after Jesus died,
The gospel according to Marc was probably written about twenty-five to thirty years after the crucifixion, Luke and Matthew were written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and I seem to recall there being papyrus fragments of the gospel according to John dating from around 100 CE.
IIRC those were the dates of composition when I was in university. Something may have changed since. 200 is more likely to be the date of the gospel of Mary Magdalen.
So the gospels were essentially Jesus fan-fiction?
That’s about the size of it.
Not sure. The general assumption is that for a while, stories about Jesus and sayings of Jesus were passed on orally. Some stories had a basis in fact, and others less so: there’s a story in one of the gospels of Jesus having to pay the temple tax, and him telling Peter to go fish, and Peter catching a fish with a coin in its stomach that he could pay both Jesus’ and his temple tax with. That is moving into legend/fan fiction territory. Same with the sayings.
The stories and sayings are presumed to have been put down in writing, the stories in an earlier version of what we now know as the gospel according to Marc, the sayings in a book that’s now lost, which is referred to as Q (short for Quelle, which is German for “source”).
What makes me doubt whether either of these contained full-blown fan fiction is that probably some people who actually knew Jesus were still alive when they were written down, including family members. His brother James was a pretty important person in the church in Jerusalem. So anyone actually making major stuff up would run the risk of one of the eleven surviving disciples, or one of Jesus’ brothers calling bullshit on the story.
Then again, there’s that story about the fish…
…the general assumption among biblical scholars, that is.
Jesus had brothers? I never knew about this.
Must …
Not …
Post …
Dogma …
Link …
They’re mentioned in some of the gospels, in some of the letters of Paul, in Acts and two of the later letters in the New Testaments (the letter of James and the letter of Jude) are attributed to them. And Dogma is brilliant, so why not post that Dogma link? 🙂
WTF JESUS HAD BROTHERS????
And per Rufus, the 13th Apostle, he was one too.
The sequel is never quite as good as the original.
The gist is that John was one of the apostles. That’s why he keeps mentioning “the one apostle Jesus liked most”…
The consensus is that Mark certainly didn’t know Jesus, but he was temporally close enough to have known somebody who did (traditionally, the book is attributed to St Mark the Evangelist, who knew St Peter, but that’s not given much weight).
Close enough in time, but not that he necessarily did. Remember how quickly Christianity expanded beyond the initial core in those early days.
Even anyone who knew Jesus would have been relying on decades old memories at that point. How would “Mark” even have been able to tell that the people he talked too really knew Jesus, assuming he did talk to such people.
Think of how many more people claimed to be at Woodstock than actually were. 🙂 And that’s in an era with real record keeping.
Oral tradition is great in many ways, but it’s unreliable in many as well. Especially when it comes to details. Even within a single generation – stories get streamlined, remembered conversations get rephrased, new stories (or old ones) get tacked on. Especially dealing with a religious figure in a society as steeped in prophetic and mystical traditions as the middle east of the time.
Stuff is for sellouts! God I want to sell out
At least Ramen is tasty.
TASTES LIKE INTEGRITY.
AND SODIUM MAINLY SODIUM
SWEET SWEET SODIUM
Wait, that’s not right…
RAMEN IS WIN!
“Won’t you take me to Ramentown?”
“Forget it Joyce. It’s ramentown.”
“She’s my sister, my [brother], my sister, my ….”
Do do do do/Do do do do do do…
That damn hook has been rattling around in my head for literal decades. It’s the muzak of my brain and at this point I’ve made my peace with that.
Cue Lipps Inc.
*Ringing the bells* IT’S COMING. IIIIIIIIT’S COMING
Omg this is such a cute sister moment I can’t handle it
Excuse me but panel three’s just making me go sniffle.
I want to hug Jocelyne so very very much.
John kicked him out of his ride home?
Her ride home. Jocelyne is a lady, though everyone else doesn’t know it yet.
I think untill Joss comes out to the people currently being interacted with in the comic, it is still acceptable to refer to Joss as ‘him’ if thats what the other people around ‘him’ still know ‘him’ as. When Joss tells them, then we can complain about people refering to ‘him’ as ‘him’.
No, incorrect. The only reason I know of to call a trans person by their wrong name and pronouns is to protect them from being outed in a dangerous situation, and we can’t out Joc because there’s a fourth wall between us and everyone she’s closeted from. Therefore, we should refer to her as ‘she’ always, in respect.
Granted, I’m not trans, so trans people can correct me on this, but I’m fairly certain this is the etiquette.
I think you put it pretty aptly, Griffin.
Nope, you got it. That we know is enough.
This. She’s a girl. It’s no more right for us fans to refer to her as boy for being closeted than it would be to refer to a gay character as straight because they haven’t come out to their parents yet.
…no. If you know, you call her by her actual gender. You, as the reader, run no risk of outing a comic character. The rules are different if you’re dealing with an actual person because of the risk of outing them, not because the words should be different.
Brother of the year. John gets middle finger cookies in his stocking for Christmas. BURNT bird cookies.
Worse. Oatmeal raisin flippin’ bird cookies.
Nah, it all depends on the type of message you want to send to the recipient. Oatmeal raisin flippin’ bird cookies will end up looking like diseased dicks when they’re done baking because everything melts together. If you want to send middle-finger-waving cookies, you’ll need a no-spread sugar cookie recipe for all your finger-definin’ bird flippin’ goodness (and, bonus! Most of those recipes taste like stale, dried out playdoh! 😀 ).
(Sorry if this shows up twice; the site ate my first one DX )
If you want something that will hold its shape, use shortbread.
Yeah, but shortbread is awesome and bird flipping ouatmeal would be a great shape for dunking. A say go the classic rout and lumps of coal
Not sure what happened to my spelling there. don’t even have the excuse of being on the phone.
John doesn’t even deserve cookies. Period. Burnt or un-burnt.
Even when there’s not some kind of bigoted reason to be awful, nothing more than an ordinary case of your sibling getting a burn in, he’s still an arrogant and terrible brother!
Congratulations, John! You’re not going to be the worst in this comic without bringing a lot more than that, but I think you’ve earned your placement round.
What’s the difference between a pastor and a writer?
Apparently a mustang.
Also, the old joke seems appropriate; what’s the difference between a table and a writer?
The table can support a family of four.
Dunno, my congregation never gave me more than a collapsible bike. Also, it’s still the property of my congregation.
Varies greatly by pastor and church. Know about 4 pastors whose church buys them everything and, though the church usually retains ownership of houses and such, they’ll let them have them if they ask nicely. That being said, the other 93 pastors I know are not so lucky, and have to deal with consistent bartering for who is gonna pick up the repair cost of any patronage/church.
What’s the difference between a pizza and a writer*? A pizza can feed a family of four.
*I’ve always told this joke as raft guide, not writer, but I do love me some self-deprecating humor. My fave raft guide joke though is “What do you call a single raft guide? Homeless.” It gets me pity from my customers, hopefully.
So many blue eyes in this one. But yee! Joss is opening up ever so much! I don’t quite see her coming out of the closet, but for now it’s enough to let Joyce know that she isn’t the only one who isn’t a douche.
Wow, John gets more dickish even when he’s off-panel. Leaving your little brother* without a ride home because you got called out on being a hypocrite? Dick. Move.
*Yes, I know Jocelyne is a woman, but John doesn’t.
You know, you can avoid misgendering by using “little sibling”. English is magic like that!
I call my sibs’ children my “niephews” unless there’s reason to specify/highlight gender.
Heres hoping that DoA’s Comments comes to be cited by the OED for the first recorded use of niephew …. 😉
Electronic only cites were not acceptable back when I was occasionally helping on the SF Citations For the OED site. But that was years ago, maybe things have changed.
You might be interested in the existing word for niephew: nibling. Which is a word that I love the sound of, but people don’t know what it means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibling
nibling sounds more like some minor D&D monster.
Appropriate.
I’m pretty sure I can hear John saying: “Josh, if my car distresses your conscience so much, I’m not going to force you to ride in it.” Then he drives off, obnoxiously tooting the horn as he does so, which plays ‘Dixie‘, of course.
*Reads Alt-Text*
Also known as “paying a visit to Maru-Chan.”
I lived in Ramentown, one desperate summer. Never again.
Oh, I hear you there. My first year in college, I got to find out just how desperate you have to be to only eat Mr Noodle, and also how very, very sick of Mr Noodle you have to be to not eat it when there is literally nothing else and you are honestly starving.
That stuff is awful; but it was ten cents a pack. The sale sign was like a beacon of hope from heaven, I tell you. I swear I heard angels singing.
But it is so god awful, you guys.
May I play paperback writer by the Beatles on the hacked Muzics?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KW9Ok6ibEQ
You asked for it, you got it!
Huzzah!
The fact I share her last name and am the only LGBT supporting member of my family hits so hard right now.
No one else is supporting in your family??
Sorry, let me clarify: Did you mean the only person who’s supporting your family or the only person in your family who is LGBT but NOT the only one supporting them?
I think they’re saying that they’re the only one in their family who supports LGBT rights?
And Jocelyne’s presumed number of family members who could ever possibly accept her if she came out increases from 0 to 1. :’)
According to the opposite of what Schroedinger actually said, until we meet Jordan, the number is simultaneously 1 and 2.
Yupp. Joyce doesn’t know it, but Jocelyne is every bit as thankful for this conversation as she is.
In John’s defense, how will poor people in India know Christianity is the right religion without John having a bunch of expensive stuff?
(Oh god please note this is sarcasm John is the worst)
I almost said “I think the sarcasm came through”, and then I realized that this is the internet…
I’m still ranking Toedad and Dickdad (Ross and Blaine) as worse. Also, Ryan.
What’s the odds that Toedad has been a loud and see-how-wonderful-I-am-by-how-much-I’m-giving supporter of John’s adventures amongst the unchurched heathen furrners?
Because that wouldn’t influence a prosperity materialist in how he sees someone, not at all.
“Accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, and you too can have Stuff like me! Oh, and eternal salvation and whatever.”
“I’m a writer. Stuff is the bane of my existence sis.”
Excuse me while I go wipe my tears and blow my nose with my English degree. Because I can’t afford tissues anymore.
But tissues are much less expensive than your degree.
Girl, I know. Ain’t no respect for creative types. It’s better than before, but we’ve got a long road ahead to be respected with steady well paying jobs without a shit ton of hard work, chances, and luck.
The FACE omfg
Anyway, John confirmed for mega douche, and Joyce being surprised and happy that she has an ally is super adorable. I wonder if she was aware Jocelyne wasn’t marching in line with their parents? Their parents sure don’t seem to be.
Also, Jocelyne describing herself as the sole Brown who didn’t toe the party line makes me wonder about Jordan…
I find myself swaying between Jordan being some sort of liberal, or pothead, or anything more connected with the secular than the other Browns, and Jordan being even more religious and/or socially conservative than the Browns, the kind of guy even Ross would raise an eyebrow at.
Yeah…it’s just I usually associate liberal with pro LGBT and whatnot. Hmm, new possibility: Jordan is a fedora devil’s advocate liberal dudebro type that neither “side” of the Brown family particularly wants to be around?
Or maybe he’s gone Objectivist or MRA/PUA.
I dunno why, but I just figured there was some kind of scandal associated with Jordan. The “got a girl pregnant at fifteen” kind, maybe. Or I dunno, him getting into some kind of music the parents weren’t cool with and then just being a “meh, whatever” teen, not going to church anymore….
Yes, he could be a dudebro who maybe drinks, smokes, engages in premarital hanky-panky, and isn’t religious, but is also non-supportive of LGBT people, and may be bigoted in other ways too.
Maybe the kind of person who becomes a Trump supporter?
I think I’m going to put my cards down on Jordan the scientist of some kind. Biology of some flavor or one of the more research-focused areas of medicine like virology. Given how Joyce reacted to Dina and evolution, that kind of Jordan-career might be exile-worthy. Heck, it could well be mutual: he might not want them around him any more than they want him around them.
Regardless of what the truth of Jordan is, I’m very curious about him.
My theory is that Jordan started a cult.
Me too. I was expecting a scene change today, so I was smiling for more Joyce/Jocelyne conversation. Then the “sole Brown” made me think “Aw nuts – Jordan….”
It didn’t occur to me until yesterday that Joyce had no knowledge of just how progressive Jocylene was. She probably figured that her “other brother” was just as intolerant as John.
And that breaks my heart.
Joyce knows very little about her older (not oldest) brother, and using the term brother exemplifies that.
About time they really got to know each other.
And I think Jocelyne learnt a lot about her youngest sister today as well… maybe enough to entrust her with… things.
From the looks of it, Jocelyne’s been very good at avoiding familial conflict by keeping her mouth shut and letting them assume her agreement (see also: “I’m the favourite, precisely because they know the least about me”). She did make a comment to Joyce about “choosing your battles” back at Freshman Family Weekend, but I don’t think Joyce was really paying attention at the time.
She has 2 older brothers, John and Jordan. John is the oldest.
Oh, wait, you’re talking about Joss…I got confused by the straight use of ‘brother’…
Dumbing of Triangle: DAY 22
You left Some more Amazi-Joyce back at home!
This is why I’ll always think of clowns as cute and cuddly.
Emperor, you cannot afford to be lulled into such a state. When they turn evil, AND THEY WILL, who’s going to mobilize the United States forces if not their Emperor?
Commissioner Garrett.
“Washington is sick. I am the cure.”
That is exactly what I would say, Sokol.
You misunderstand my position.
The fact that they will turn evil is precisely why I find them cute and cuddly.
Someone cheated and knew what John did to Joss.
But where is that top comic from?
The Night Before .
We’ve all been speculating about where Jordan is going to be on the spectrum of Brown horribleness, but it seems that at least Jocelyne sees him as not being on her side. But maybe that just means he’s withdrawn or inexpressive, or at least leaves the possibility of his being somewhere short of vile.
Yeah, it’s odd. The parents don’t approve of him, Jocelyne doesn’t approve of him, what’s the common factor there? He is a mystery.
Maybe he doesn’t toe the party line in some other respect, (which is why he’s exiled) so to Jocelyne, his position on LGBTQ stuff is unknown, and with the position she’s in it’s safer to assume he still toes the party line in that respect?
I may be spitballing in an attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt though.
Maybe he wasn’t exiled, maybe he peaced outta there.
Maybe he turned Catholic.
He could be a *gasp* atheist. That’s possibly worse than LGBT
Maybe he married a black person!
It’s possible, of course, but that being the source of contention doesn’t quite mesh with “I can’t wait to tell everyone on our street that our daughter isn’t racist.” Don’t get me wrong, I could see Carol being unhappy about an interracial marriage, but I don’t see her admitting that. There’s got to be something else there.
Maybe he’s a stripper? Or an addict? Or a stripper addict?
Or addicted to strippers!
I suspect that, in their culture, that would be considered an eccentricity but ultimately an acceptable vice for a healthy male.
Or stripping for addicts.
It’s part of his charity work!
Yeah Jordan is an enigma right now. I assume that Joss is saying this because it seems pretty obvious none of the Brown siblings really know a thing about each other and so she is probably just defaulting to worst case scenarios.
My bet is that Jordan is so completely estranged from the family that even the outsiders old and new (Jocelyne and Joyce) see him as an enemy, or at least the kind of ally they don’t want to have. (If Jordan is your ally it’s because Mom/Dad/family have shunned you utterly, sort of thing.)
Assuming, of course, that they even consider him at all, which it’s possible they don’y. It’s possible he’s so totally shunned/estranged that even the decent members of the Brown clan forget he exists. (He may want it that way, too.)
Jocelyn is publishing stuff under her own name her family has never seen.
They know she’s a writer, though. What kind of stuff does she publish as Joshua?
Entirely possible she doesn’t publish and her parents don’t go look.
If they ask, she could just say most of her writing contracts have been ghostwriting for companies and therefore she can’t tell them what she’s written.
It depends what her nom de plume is. If it’s something gender-neutral like, say “J D Brown”, then no-one need know anything.
JocelyneJBrown.com
Dammit. Maybe this?
JocelyneJBrown.com
A small-time column in a Christian paper under her dead name would make great cover. Otherwise, she must be doing what I used to do and remained vaguer on certain employments and projects I was working on that my family didn’t approve of.
And Hank says something along the lines of “while we disagree on things, he’s a good person”, so we can assume he isn’t, like, a mass murderer.
Maybe he still toes the line, but did something ‘sinful’ enough that the parents won’t forgive him.
The description given by Hank here suggests exactly the opposite.
Ok, we’ve got 2 cool Browns with Jocelyn and Joyce, 3 Bad Browns (Hank’s kinda iffy at this point), and one as-yet-to-be-determined Brown with this legendary Jordan character. Hopefully he’ll be cool, considering how he’s talked about, and it’ll be nice to have a nice, clean 1:1 ratio going on.
Yeah, Hank’s still a bigot he’s just a bigot who thinks another bigot is an asshat and also respects his daughter’s judgement and autonomy.
Well, respecting his daughter’s judgment and autonomy takes him a long way out of the sexist category of bigot, even if he still has other prejudices. And being willing to do that even on the topic of his prejudices goes a long way as well.
I wonder if he will be able to respect his other daughter’s judgment and autonomy? Probably a leap to far.
Josh’s….Jocelyn’s…which ever he/she would be now’s face in the last panel is fantastic
Always Jocelyn/she to those in the know.
And yes, it’s fantastic. =D
Sassy Joss is best Joss!
… Joss sass is best sass?
SHE.
Jocelyn is a woman. You should be using feminine pronouns. And it’s actually very hurtful to trans people to be purposefully misgendered and deadnamed as you just did.
Sorry for coming down like a sledgehammer, one of my meatspace trans friends got some transphobic bullshit last night so my nerves are a bit raw on the topic. Short version of bare-bones-minimum-of-civil-interaction-with-trans-people etiquette: Refer to them as the gender they identify with, and don’t use their old name, unless explicitly asked to do so by the trans person in question. Under no circumstances should you ever refer to a trans woman or trans man as a “heshe” or “he/she.”
*hugs* to your friend. And def agree. He/she unless that’s the person’s pronouns is largely to be avoided as it’s used as an intentional slur by “classier” bigot groups who don’t want to be so crude as to use the t-slur.
So it can carry that even if that’s the furthest thing from your intent.
Ramentown. I know it well.
Where most of of went to college
I once ate nothing but Ramen for a straight week. Breakfast lunch and dinner. I sprung for the ramen in a cup too. I was living the dream.
When I was in grad school I got like an entire box of store-brand mac and cheese for some obscenely low price at Sav-A-Lot because it was near expiration or something and that and cereal were all I ate for like a month.
The fact that I do not in fact now hate mac and cheese testifies to the power of Kraft Dinner.
Kraft dinner is still one of my favorites!!
Kraft Dinner is made of yum.
And pasta.
But mostly yum.
I lived for two years in Taterville. All you have to do is go to the store and buy three sacks of potatoes. Then, cut out and grow the eyes in a small plot of land nearby of dubious ownership or your backyard. Congratulations, so long as you eat the skins and supplement with milk, you’ve just guaranteed yourself at least a year’s worth of food, since you can harvest every three months. Every three weeks buy a loaf of bread and a jar both peanut butter and jelly, and you’re set for low budget survival. Helped me lose my freshman fifteen.
Oh my, what about the vitamins?
That’s why you eat the skins. They have most of the vitamins.
Couple of months, here. Usually only a brick or two a day.
The only good thing, I lost so much weight.
I feel Jocelyn SO much.
I love they are getting closer. Yay~
(I am going to be a bit happy and not think about the horrible future Willis has planned for us….)
Yeah, I feel your pain Jocelyn. I feel your pain. Unlucky history majors are in the same boat.
English major, history minor. Oof. XD
Ouch. Care for some internet sympathy?
Religions major, Jewish Studies minor, Studio Art also minor, zero interest in being clergy. I would’ve been better off with English, but whatever, I was graduating into such a rough economy that it wasn’t going to matter, better to just read lots of cool old books, learn how to think, and do something employable in gradschool.
Here. Have my internet sympathy. Also, my intense respect for sticking with a very difficult major.
Internet sympathy all around! Go Team Underappreciated Majors. 😀
Just go the David Barton route, sell out, and write a bunch of historical lies that the mass market of Evangelical Christian Conservatism will pay big money to read.
To much Jesuit education and liberation theology on my part to do that.
See, that’s why the “lies” part is so important.
STEM uber alles!
Masters of turning it off and on again!
I’m an expert at pipetting precise volumes of solution, thank you very much!
Masters of pipetting it up and squirting it out again!
Ehhhhh, I graduated with a master’s in a STEM field and still ended up in unemployment hell with the history majors, except that they had slightly better job prospects, because a lot of new businesses are hiring liberal arts majors to handle things like marketing and sales.
Honestly, in this new economy, we’re all fucked, so you might as well pursue your dream.
I’m so glad Jocelynne gets allies and more panel time! (Also, a lot of us — myself possibly included — need to review how to spell her name! I’ve spotted at least three different spellings in the comments section so far!) And I totally sympathize with her as a fellow English major. It’s a hard life we choose.
To be fair, that’s a novel and interesting misspelling I haven’t seen before! ;D
According to the tags, and therefore Word of Willis, it’s Jocelyne.
As an out of work writer who lives with his folks yup.
Heh, I love that at least 50% of people keep forgetting the last “e” in Jocelyne I need to pay better attention to that.
Why I’ve started using Joss.
I was using it literally the second it existed.
I was just noting that. I also saw an instance of “Jocelynne” just now, heh.
EXCELLENT PLAY ON WORDS, that dash — “less ‘came back’, and…” *oh god still can’t say “and more ‘came OUT'”*
I mean, I doubt she actually did come out to John right there in the parking lot. Didn’t seem nearly like the time.
But you *know* she’s thinking about that turn of phrase, and the writing knows we’re obsessing over this, and it’s just. Very well done, good use of transitional verbs.
speaking from experience, Joyce, being the oldest sibling doesn’t make you smarter. (I have an unfortunate case in the form of a brother from my dad’s first marriage. He never learns from his mistakes. And he has made a lot of them.)
Jocelyne is a hard ass name to remember so I’m just going to refer to her as Thundor from now on.
Thundor just needs to get herself a Patreon and rake it all in.
Lol. A lot of people have been using “Joss.”
ehhhhh maybe not with the refusing to use trans people’s names, that’s way too real
Yes this. I get that thundor is supposed to be silly but it’s much too close (in fact, ‘I can’t remember your new name, I’ll just call you a nickname instead’ is super common and super invalidating irl).
Yeah, Joss in one thing, because it’s a nickname of her real name and respects it. I believe you have no malice in the Thundor, but in real life, I’ve had assholes just give me a whole “easier” name because my name in their opinion was “fake anyways”.
I really can’t stand my given name so I’m going by a nickname and a lot of people give me weird crap cause that’s how I introduce myself.
I don’t get what the big deal about “but your parents gave you that name” is, not only with transgender but in general. It’s just rude calling someone in a way they are uncomfortable with.
It’s been nice that she’s been discussed so much in this arc because I’ve finally locked in the spelling and don’t have to scroll up to check the tag anymore.
Being oldest doesn’t mean the smartest. Many examples in the wonderful world of (Republican) politics.
Ramentown, nice enough place to visit, but you do NOT want to live there. I did from about age five to thirteen. And now I’m back. Yaaay college.
More Tonally innocuous DOA art.
http://i.imgur.com/gv4GXNv.png
Who should I do next (I will totally half as a dude though.)
Tricera-Dina and Toedad Becky.
(I think my connection timed out or something so if this gets posted twice sorry.)
Down for me too, I assume it was something on the site’s end.
It’s a conspiracy I tell you, and the handsome people are being targeted.
That explains the problems I’ve been having.
Dick move John you piece of shit.
Weird, this was supposed to be a comment by itself.
John isn’t a piece of shit! At least pieces of shit tend to help the environment!
And attract flies…and dung beetles, but those at least have the decency to roll their “food” underground and feast on it there.
Growing up is hard to do.
http://i.imgur.com/H2sTAWA.png
That looks adorable.
And like she could wreck my shit.
She reminds me a bit of a cartoon character, but I can’t remember what its name was.
Dumbing of Aged: starring John Goodman as Becky
“Dumbing of Age: The Xth Decade”
Um, X = __?
Happens to us all, some sooner than others.
Joyce is proof that God exists and loves us.
Sarah is disagree.
🙂
Hahaha! “God loves us.” Sorry if I find that funny even if it isn’t.
Can’t fault Becky’s logic.
I love your work! It adds extra to the best comic ever! Can you do one of Jocelyne dressed up?
Age doesn’t always bring wisdom, you can have all the experience in the world but if your not open minded enough to learn from any of those experiences then all that age means jack shit. He’ll the fact that John just walked out and was like ” I’m the oldest that automatically means I’m right” show stubbornness, immaturity, ignorance, and down right arrogance. John has a lot of catching up to do on the real world experience. Hell Joyce hasn’t completely grown up yet but she’s at least matured enough to have her world view change a little bit in the short time she’s been away unlike John apparently.
“John has a lot of catching up to do on the real world experience.”
No he doesn’t. He’s completely insulated from that, and will be forever. He’s a ruined vessel.
Joyce’s words are most instructive about Joyce and her upbringing. We’ve seen it expressed elsewhere in the strip too: Joyce has been raised to believe that age automatically confers wisdom and authority. The idea that someone who is older than her doesn’t automatically know better than her is a very difficult lesson for her to learn and is one of the existential traumas with which she is currently struggling.
“Also, maybe I should ask you to stop calling me Josh.”
Oh we all know that’s going to involve lots of hugging and crying and squeeing. 😀
Sadly probably not this arc or atleast not till the drive back to college. I have this glorious picture of Josh walking back from the rest stop bathroom Joce.
I would rather Becky in like a truck stop bathroom, and then Joss walks in and doesn’t see her for a second and gets ready to do her thing, and then Becky is like, “uh, Josh?” and omg Joss’ face would be precious.
Have they actually called her Josh? It seems like everyone has been using the long-form, Joshua.
Which is really weird to me.
John did; “Come along, Josh” when they where leaving, and before that “I’ve picked up Josh” when he was talking to Joyce on the phone.
My (somewhat depressing) headcanon is that Joyce uses the long form because when she was younger she couldn’t make the “sh” sound, so it would always come out “Joss”, and her parents, afraid their middle son would become a woman*, or worse, a screen writer for a series about vampires or space pirates, insisted on “Joshua”.
*Yes, I know it doesn’t work that way! They don’t!
I love Joce so much. Pity she won’t be able to be much help in defending Joyce. She can try dancing around it, but it’s not going to inspire much confidence in their frazzled mother that gay isn’t contagious if the one telling her is the surprise LGBT daughter she didn’t know she had. On the other hand I remember something about this same woman really wanting a girl so who knows.
“really wanting a girl”
Are you thinking of Elliott’s mom (from El Goonish Shive)?
“Shouldn’t he be the smartest?”
As the eldest in my family, let me unequivocally state, “LOLZ, NAW.” We sometimes are expected to be. We usually WANT to be. A few of us, like John Brown, THINK we are.
“You are on MY side” is such a beautiful thing to say.
Speaking of beautiful, Becky hasn’t said anything since the first panel, because she is lost in all those those big, beautiful blue eyes.
Yeah, I have to say, that line really got me. You can tell Joss is a writer by the way she perfectly uses antithesis (well, besides the lack of stuff, that is)
Those four words are also where I stopped simply hoping that Jocelyne will soon give her real name to Joyce, and starting to think that it will actually happen.
I think Becky is being quiet because the wheels are turning and she’s realizing what Jocelyn is hinting at.
I hope I’m right.
Noooo! Writers are super-rich people with mansions and velvet bathrobes and smoking pipes even if they’re too health-conscious to actually smoke they can chew on them and fuzzy slippers and big fireplaces and big plush armchairs in front of those fireplaces and massive libraries full of all their bestsellers!
Yup. That’s why Jocelyne got snippy with John. “Oh, so you only have ONE mustang. That’s cute.”
I’m the smartest, but my little sister regularly reminds me that I’m not the wisest. 🙂
Re: ramentown. Yep. History majors, too, unless they go to law school or something.
“For forever I was afraid I- I was alone, the sole Brown who didn’t toe the party line on this stuff.”
Interesting. So does this mean that Jordan does “toe the party line” with the rest of the family “on this stuff”?
There’s been a lot of speculation about Jordan’s estrangement from the Browns, and back when Joyce stood up to her parents over Dorothy, her dad likened her behavior to Jordan*, which makes it sound like his split with the rest of the family might be based either on him having different religious beliefs from the parents, or at least being more accepting of people outside their religion. But that could still leave room for him to be homophobic or transphobic.
Or is she referring only to the members of the family who are still on talking terms with the rest of the family? Or does she not even consider Jordan to be part of the family anymore?
In a related matter, in the strip I’m referring to (“Take After”) Hank has this to say about Jordan:
“He and your mother and I don’t always see eye to eye, but he’s still a good kid.”
Now, Hank may just be speaking only for himself (Carol is, of course, the more aggressive hard-ass in the family, from what we’ve seen), but even then, that doesn’t sound like a parent who is choosing to be estranged from his son. The parents think that they “created” the “Jordan situation” by either squeezing too hard/not hard enough**. What I’m taking way too many words to say is that it looks like he chose to turn his back on the Browns, not the other way around, but that might not be because he’s more progressive than them. For all we know, he may be just as/more fundamentalist as Carol/Hank/John (not certain I should put Hank on that list, but he is a major part of establishing the Brown status quo), just disagreeing with them on some other religious point.
Also, this is probably me reading wayyy too much into things, but I should point out that “He and your mother and I don’t always see eye to eye” could be interpreted to mean:
“Jordan doesn’t always see eye to eye with both Hank and Carol”
OR:
“Jordan, Hank, and Carol don’t always see eye to eye with each other.”
Now, obviously I don’t think Hank was just out of nowhere declaring that he and his wife didn’t agree on things, but it might be an interesting Freudian slip/bit of subtext.
——————————————————————–
*http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/takeafter/
**http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/squeezing-2/
…And it looks like other people have all speculated the same thing, but in significantly less bloated and rambling posts. Yep, that sounds about right.
Hey, you practically have it in MLA format, there. As a future resident of Ramentown, I can appreciate that.
Yeah, I got a literature degree from Hippy School, and now I have two part-time jobs in the food service industry!
I’m halfway tempted to cite my sources in MLA now, but I prefer comic-book style footnotes, since I’m commenting on a comic.
I’ve read that comic like 50 times and always read it as “He and your mother don’t always […]” so this is a revelation in itself
I’m suddenly reminded of Fred “Slacktivist” Clark, lefty blogger from an evangelical upbringing. He’s a brilliant writer, like Mark Twain brilliant, but still needs a day job to pay the bills.
Hey, so did Twain. Even when he was marvelously successful, the man was always in debt.
Would he still seem as brilliant if he didn’t have Left Behind to rip on?
Yes. Yes he would.
So based on what Jocelyne is saying, Jordan still toes the “Party Line” of the Browns even if he is the weird one. Or maybe just him not being there makes Jocelyne alone?
Calling it now, John is DEEP in the closet.
I love how every time an asshole shows up, the first thing we think of is…totally gay.
wow taken out of context, this could make me sound like a total ass!
“we are claiming him as ours until proven otherwise”
Hey, it turned out to be the case for Ruth (well she’s bi, but same difference).
Sometimes people are just assholes
But there is a trend that homophobic conservative assholes tend to be closeted gays. I think there is even something on it in TV Tropes (but I ain’t setting foot in that pit of quicksand…)
Not as often as you’d think though- most of the time they’re really just straight assholes. It’s actually not as common as people think. It’s just the few cases it does happen to get really publicised and become extra famous in the end.
I think the number of anti-gay preachers who are gay exist sure. But they are exceedingly dwarfed by the number of straight bigots in their numbers- like has there ever been a comparison between the percentage rates? (Also the fact so called ‘ex-gay’ advocates are of course also a thing, who endorse conversion camps- until years down the line most of them say ‘nah, we’re still gay this is bs’)Wouldn’t surprise me if the % number of gay people was actually the same of even a bit lower than the national average. But odds being what they are- there was /always/ going to be a few.
But their numbers are blown out of proportion thanks to publication and the fact many people like to snigger at it as an idea.
I can get why people /think/ it’s more common than it is- when people go on about gay sex being this ‘temptation’ but honestly most people who parrot that stuff probably think that they’ve just never met a form of gay sex temptation themselves. They view it as like teenagers being tempted by cigarettes probably. Some people think it’s ‘cool and trendy’ like John says- like the secular world says- in his last comic but others don’t and never see cigarettes as this cool thing.
Hmm.
Though there are probably a lot of straight bigots out there (and unfortunately also some gay, lesbian, queer and trans bigots, it would be so nice to be exempt but we are not) I never could understand why someone with no personal beef in the subject should get so heated about it.
So my theory always was that most people would swing both ways if society didn’t make such a big deal of it. Therefore 80% of people who do feel sexual attraction feel attraction to the sex/gender they are not usually attracted to on occasion. Only a minority never is attracted to someone not belonging to their main target sex/gender.
(I’m actually unsure about the right wording here. Partly, because the German language does not come with this distinction, partly because gender expression is such a varied thing it sounds wrong to apply it to a basically binary topic).
Bigots love getting bent out of shape about things that have no personal effect of them. Take the hate mob that calls itself gamergate.
Your last two sentences before the parentheses seem very well/successfully crafted (to me).
Yeah, it happens. Of course it happens. But it just seems like a trend since it gets so blown up whenever it does. I’ve just always found it unfair for some reason, to the people who are struggling with being in the closet for whatever reasons they have, to point at somebody being openly homophobic and being like “yep, he’s gay.”
Wait a sec.
Evil, used to having stuff, the favorite child, enemy of a nicer child, one parent is evil.
is John Azula?
I can’t wait for the avatar to beat up Carol and steal her power, and for his waterbender love-interest to humiliate John.
Lets see here, if John is Azula and Carol is Ozai and Joyce is Zuko…Does that make Dorothy the Avatar? Becky would Toph, and Sal would be Katara with Walky as Sokka.
I like this.
:3
No no, Walky’s Katara, Sal’s Sokka, otherwise Dorothy would be with Sal.
Unless we’re shipping Zutara, that’s a whole different comicEw, zutara. /starts 10 year old shipping war in the comments/
Eyyy, I always thought Zutara was more thematically fitting anyway. 😉
The moment I saw the comparison, I started thinking, “so what’s the DOA equivalent to ATLA’s “Kataang or Zutara” ship war?”
Meh, I just figured Walky’s personality went best with Sokka
Nah, I think that might make Becky the Avatar. You know, the one Joyce/Zuko was taught to hate but ultimately sided with.
Surely the same applies for Dorothy, though? Joyce’s prejudice towards atheism was just as bad as her prejudice towards gay people at the start of the comic.
So who’d be Foaming Mouth Guy? Or the Melon Lord?
Foaming Mouth Guy…
Buckets of Blood Guy?
John can never approach the magnificence incarnate who is Azula. Never.
I agree. Azula is frightening in her amoral madness.
John is… pathetic. He is frightening to those who aren’t privileged in his culture, but not because of his intent but because of his indifference.
I guess I’m saying Azula isn’t as evil as John.
I don’t know- Azula has also displayed rank foolishness herself. Like it was someone else who pointed this out to me but I really should have gotten it myself since I’ve worked on boats- that whole speech about the tides in her first episode in season 2 shows she’s really just a foolish child who thinks she can command nature. You /have/ to work with the tides when you work a boat and Azula really could have killed them all actually. It was the first indication of what she was: Intimidating, commanding, terrifying. But also a fool.
Then again wasn’t she like 14/15.
(Shame we never got a scene with a smashed up boat to drive this home though- she really only got incredibly lucky).
John doesn’t inspire the same presence granted and he’s likely twice her age but they both have displayed that they have no idea what they’re talking about- so one point in the ‘John is Azula’ meter?
I said ‘fool’ like three times. I am a foolishly foolish fool.
Interesting analysis. But in fairness, she did successfully stage a coup to overthrow the largest stronghold in the ATLA world. That’s no mean feat. And probably requires a lot of intelligence. Ultimately, she makes several key mistakes that, along with her spiralling mental health, lead to her downfall, but she’s not lacking in strategic intelligence.
“FOOL!”
* Excalibur gestures dramatically with his little cane.
To me, Azula was always a girl with serious Daddy Issues. She wanted to be Ozai’s perfect child after Zuko’s banishment. To me, that’s why she went insane towards the end (although, arguably, she always had a personality disorder of some kind) – the realisation that she was just another tool to Ozai and that there was nothing she could have done to gain his approval.
That little crack in her otherwise calm attitude when Ozai informed her that he was leaving her in the Fire Nation really did hit that home. I’d say it was the final nail in the coffin.
Glad Joyce is learning this… being the “oldest” doesn’t make one better or smarter at anything. Trouble is, a lot of “oldest” siblings believe it DOES. (My own eldest sibling still thinks this)
“You’re on MY side.”
It’s extremely cute, yes, but also extremely foreshadowing (but hopefully in a good way). Saying this is saying that Joyce is the -ally-. And Jocelyne quite possibly thinks that Joyce therefore should know soon who exactly she is an ally to.
Those four small words. So much meaning in them in itself. So much more meaning implied.
I’m really wondering how Joyce will take it. I’m sure she won’t turn away Joss but it’ll still hit her hard.
Of course it will be hard, but Joyce has recently acquired the ability to process information that doesn’t fit with her beliefs. She may not understand, but she will try.
DAT LAST PANEL. I mean, the text is hilarious, but OMG Jocelyne’s expression is perfect.
(Also the rest of this is awesome as well.)
I feel you on that, Jocelyne…
Writers and artists unite!
And composers!
*sob*
[off topic] This comment section is amazing. It’s where I encountered the concept ‘gaslighting’. With your kind indulgence, I will try to create an example of how it might appear on a web forum:
[evil me] “That’s A! Not B! You have totally misread the comic. After all the work Willis put into it… Did you even look at the comments? Or do you just post whatever comes into your head?” [/evil me]
Victim does an angry archive trawl, quoting comments, linking links. Next day:
[evil me] Whoa, touchy much? Have a chill pill! And I never said that. How far down did you read? Anyway, that’s all yesterday’s news — so who cares? [/evil me]
Evil me enjoyed that way too much. Sorry. I’m going to go get chicken fingers now. By any menus necessary.
Now turn it in a real gaslighting!
In a web forum where editing your posts is possible, modify your original post so the victim looks like a doofus and cannot believe his own memory.
And THAT”S why you can’t edit your posts here. Because jerks like that most certainly exist.
“So… my theory that you were the secret true identity of the one writer who owns a lot of stuff, JK Rowling, was wrong?”
“Well, yes, you were wrong. But a female author is on the right track for my secret true identity.”
“What?”
Like the Brown kids were ever allowed to read Harry Potter. There’s the devil’s witchcraft in ’em, dontchaknow!
Turn’s out JK Rowling is not the only writer who owns a lot of stuff and we know that Joyce did at least watch the film adaption!
This kind of reminds me of Brooklyn 99, Jake has a line to his dad like:
“But you’re the best pilot in the world! (I assume, knowing nothing about the profession).”
A ticket straight to Ramentown on the super-economy train line with stops at Freelanceburg, Minimumwageville, and Temp City.
Lovely Blue eyed ladies 🙂
Jocelyn. Is. Awesome.:D
I’m reminded of a line from Bojack Horseman:
“I don’t believe in ‘deep down’. I kind of think all you are is just the things you do.”
“… Well, that’s depressing.”
“It’s not who I am underneath, but what I do, that defines me.”
– Batman
“We are who we chose to be. Now choose!”
Green Goblin
“I don’t want to kill them. I don’t even want to kill you. But I can’t abide you trying to kill me.” – Deathstroke
That show hits so close to home. I’ve exceeded Pixar levels of ugly crying from the sheer level of FEELING. It really is special.
Remember when everything was good and silly and nothing hurt?
Nope. When was that?
The very beginning of Roomies!, maybe?
Strips one through two were light-hearted. Then in strip three we found out Billie is an alcoholic.
Catch phrase of a superhero from our old Champions campaign:
“Just because I’m big and strong, doesn’t mean I’m stupid. I have a PhD in Literature. That means I’m stupid.”
Hahaha XD That’s a fantastic quote ^^
What’s the difference between a writer and a pizza? A pizza can feed a family of four.
So as multiple people have pointed out either
a) Jordan is also homophobe, he’s just disapproved of for different reasons by the family
b) Jocelyne just really can’t know for sure where Jordan stands at the moment
But honestly I feel like under her own circumstances Jocelyne would do some digging with regards Jordan and /why/ he’s kind of a pariah. She’s older than Jordan for one thing if I recall anyway? So more in a position to know than Joyce what went down. She would also try to check later down the line. I’m certain of it. Just to see what would happen if she came out and if he could be a port of call for support. And Jocelyne would be desperate for the chance of support even if it’s only implied.
As it turns out he is not someone she sees as a source of support.
Honestly while there’s still a chance- I’d say it’s really all too likely she’d try and look into Jordan at least subtly, and she has found him wanting.
Joyce is the first family member Jocelyne could see having a continued sibling bond with even if she comes out.
I’m pretty sure that Jocelyne is terrified of coming out to anyone in the family. However, with regard to Jordan, I suspect that he may be out of contact with the rest of the family. In a country as vast as the United States, it is possible to vanish and not be found if you don’t want to be.
At some point, those bright cyan gemstones they call eyes will *have* to shoot laser beams or something.
Thanks. Now I can’t unsee that. ¬_¬
I’m pretty sure that would have happened in about five seconds time Here
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/angry-3/
im confused, when/where is it stated that her name is Jocelyne and she’s trans??? im super happy that this is a thing im just wondering how the hell i missed something like that
nvm found it
I’m confused. Joshua, John, Joyce… and apparently one of the brothers is trans? Which one? Who’s the mysterious Jocelyne who keeps popping up in the comments? I read the entire comic but this has somehow gone under my radar.
Josh is Jocelyn but she’s not out to her family. It’s in the tags.
Ah, thank you. 🙂
For anyone else who missed it.
I’ve been thinking about what Jocelyne is saying about John. When most of us think of ‘missionaries’, we think of people travelling foreign lands, preaching their beliefs and trying to make converts. I’m not entirely sure that is what John is. I’m thinking that he might actually be a ‘missionary’ only in terms of him being based overseas but I suspect that me may be closer to a franchise manager, overseeing their sect’s interests (including finance and property) in India.
If I’m right then he’s more a mid-ranking executive than a missionary in the traditional sense and this will lead to a very different mindset. As Jocelyne says, being an executive is a well-rewarded sort of position. John thus will think more like a white upper-middle class professional than a man who spends most of his time on the road and working with low-income people from developing world countries. That includes all that wonderful privilege and disdain for those whom he considers ‘freeloaders’ and ‘entitled’.
This may also explain why he has been so reluctant to let Joyce visit him in India. He has enough self-awareness to understand that she would never understand the difference between how she visualises the missionary lifestyle and the life that he probably leads. He probably thinks of it as ‘youthful naivete’.
Yes, that sounds like a call in the right direction.
I’m reminded of Francis of Assisi, nice guy with some great ideas, and the Franciscans who ended up the richest monks in Europe.
My background is small low-church Church of England with cross-overs into various sack-and-ashcloth sects who believe that having a church organ is “sinful.”
I’m an atheist, but I still get an uncomfortable feeling when any church starts dabbling in stocks-and-shares, having mid-level execs and their own fleet of aircraft, cars etc. I understand that US churches are tax-free. I understand in a rational sense, but in other ways, WTF? Then there are also things like the (now defunct) Magdelen Laundries in Ireland, and my anger meter starts going off the scale.
As you can see, it don’t sit right with me somehow, so I’m with Joyce on this and I’m no youthful naief.
That thing about preaching individual poverty and ending up with filthy rich monasteries actually happened to a lot of monastic orders, but I never heard of it happening to the Franciscans. Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Cistercian monks?
Fairly certain, but not totally. St Francis of Assisi certainly featured in a segment of Kenneth Clark’s TV series Civilisation – worth looking for a download if you’re into art history – which is why I remember it, but I can’t check as to whether or not it was the Franciscans or Cistercians I can’t say for certain. I seem to have deleted the series:(
The Basilica di Santa Croce has 16 chapels and is decorated by Giotto etc. Giotto wasn’t cheap:) That’s Franciscan for sure.
Sorry, I meant to say “buy from a reputable DVD store” instead of download. A-hem.
“What… what is all this?”
“We’re doing God’s work here, Joyce.”
(unspoken: you’re too young and/or too female to understand.)
Even the executive sort of position aside, their sect of Christianity strikes me as very similar to the Calvinists. I recently picked up a book on Hawaiian history, and for about 20 years Calvinist missionaries had the run of the place. It is striking how much they viewed the native Hawaiians not as people that needed to be “saved”, but in contempt. I have a feeling douchebag Brown is similar, viewing anyone and everyone that does not match his view of religion or values in complete agreement in contempt.
“John experiences having stuff.”
Such a wonderful line.
I wanna share John’s experiences. Just to, you know, understand his point better. ’cause I’m open minded. -coughs-
So many baby blues, so few panels! No but really, they have cute eyes.
I like Jocelyn’s way of explaining this to Joyce. She chose to take the high road about it, and even if John doesn’t really deserve it, I can respect that.
Now I’m really wondering what happened with Jordan, that he’s estranged from the rest of the Browns. Did he convert to a different religion? Leave religion entirely and is now an atheist? Some other reason? I hope we get to see him eventually.
I want to link to “Are You Experienced?” but I strongly suspect it is one of those songs that gets real creepy if you think about it too much.
Well said, Jocelyn, well said indeed. *takes a heavy swig of Glenfiddich and pens a few things down*
My inner anime nerd insists I point out that everyone is thinking of instant ramen here, where bears the same relationship to the real stuff as most instant foods do.
see also, home-made or restaurant-grade macaroni and cheese vs. Kraft Dinner.
Writers have lots of stuff. Sure, none of it has monetary value, but it still qualifies as stuff. Who gets more diverse and annoying feedback than writers? Tolkien got constant visits from fans, especially during dinnertime. Sometimes with an oversized Frodo among the crowd.
If you haven’t heard the song “What Do You with a BA in English?”, now’s a good time to do so.
you really should put trigger warnings on that. -_-;;
(kidding… sorta)
I swear my biggest question about DoA is now, and forever will be until answered, “what about Jordan?”
What is Joss saying here? That Jordan is ALSO a horrible douche like the Brown mainstream, just in a different way? That Jordan is actually a cool, progressive dude (or whatever) but since he skedaddled as far from the Browns as he could (a reasonable course of action, that Joss herself is hampered from doing because writer) she still felt alone in non-horribleness?
What, Willis? WHAT?
Also, enjoy the con or whatever I guess. BUT WHAT ABOUT JORDAN?!
I’m trying to remember where exactly it’s mentioned that Jordan is the family black sheep and I cannot find it to save my life 🙁
I too desire to know…WHAT ABOUT JORDAN!?
During the “Just hanging out with my family” chapter, Jocelyne is the one saying that Jordan is “too Jordan” to be visiting Joyce. Later in the same storyline, Hank says that while Jordan and he don’t see much eye to eye, he’s still a good kid.
And it’s Carol that, early in this storyline, definitely thinks of him as a “black sheep” more than anyone else. She’s thinking that they should’ve squeezed harder (read: used more abusive techniques in the name of Jesus) to avoid him getting estranged from the family; and that now they need to squeeze harder on Joyce to prevent the same from happening with her.
So based on these things, here’s my SPECULATIVE GUESS: Jordan is probably a fairly good guy, with a normal amount of flaws. I don’t think he’s particularly fundie, because Carol is clearly the one that likes him the least.
But he chose to cut the ties with his family, and that included Jocelyne. There are several reasons why this could be. Jordan might think that Jocelyne is “them”, considering how she’s been hiding her true self from everyone up until now. Or Jordan might have suspected/known Jocelyne would be on his side, but deemed that it was best to just cut the family ties cleanly off, because even seeing the ones he likes will remind him of the ones that hurt him*. Drastic, sure, but somewhat understandable.
*Yeah, I’m assuming that at the very least Carol must have hurt him. Maybe also Hank to a lesser degree, before starting to grow up.
oooh. i like that line. “we are what we experience.” although a lot of people go through the same experiences, and change differently. it’s still a good phrase for this situation.
It shapes one significally, but it’s up to oneself to make other experiences, get new knowledge or try to understand different points of view.
That’s how I see it.
Idea. Joyce, now that she’s seeing a slice of the real world, decides she doesn’t necessarily want to spend her whole life being a stay-at-home mom. Joyce switches her major…to become a social worker to help kids like Becky.
Hey, it could happen.
FWIW, I’ve long wondered if Joyce will continue to pursue a career in education and become an teacher in a public school as a way of rejecting the isolationist aspects of her upbringing.
As Willis said on his Tumblr, in the Walkyverse, Joyce became a teacher. It’s possible that this Joyce would genuinely enjoy the career.
HAH, CAUSE WRITERS ONLY EAT RAMEN, THATS WHY ITS FUNNY.
THEY PREFER IT. THEY COULD HAVE LIKE CAVIAR AND FILET STEAK BUT THEY HATE THE STUFF.
YEAH, CAUSE RAMEN IS REALLY TASTY, EVEN RAW, JUST DUMP THE POWDER ON THE RAW RAMEN AND BOTTOMS UP!
AND THEY USE LOWERCASE, NOT LIKE ORDINARY PEOPLE.
Comic reactions:
Panel 1:
Oh man, the absolute tightrope Jocelyne has been used to walking with her family is on display here. Jocelyne makes one pushback type comment about how much her brother is being an ass to her sister and she’s stranded with her and probably regarded at least partially as being as fallen. That’s a claustrophobic place to be and heart-breaking when taken as part of a whole.
Also, yay, Jocelyne on doing that and coming back. That was such a big risk on her part and it’s nice to see her come out of that deep cave she’s felt she’s needed to live in with family in order to support her sister and her almost sister.
Panel 2: Joyce’s shock here is battle-worn. Like, of course she’s surprised to see someone in her family who’s not antagonistic or “getting to tolerance”. As far as she’s concerned, this is like spotting a unicorn in the flesh.
Panel 3: Oh, that line and that body language. This is her getting so close to just coming right out and saying that she’s “family” in the queer sense as well. And I look forward to Joyce putting the pieces together on things when Jocelyne does feel safe enough around her to come out. And it really does summarize everything in a bow.
Mainly, that of course Jocelyne and Becky have been on the other side from birth, being who they are and trying to survive best they can. And Joyce, through empathy and trauma, has come fiercely over to their side to support them with all her heart. It’s a beautiful summary of the value of good allyship.
Panels 5 and 6: Oh, man, Joyce is having how she was raised shattered here. As a young woman, she was told all her life that her older brother would always be smarter and more wise and she should head his moral advice, especially when he’s in good standing with the church. And yet she’s realizing he’s just an ignorant bigot.
And Jocelyne on people being what they experience gets to the rub of it. That when you are X or you have friends who are X, it becomes hard to cling to the bigotries you’ve been steeped in all your life with the same fervor.
It’s basically what Becky has discovered. When you find out you like girls, it’s hard to believe in a God who hates sexuality more than anything else in the world with the same passion. And when you find out all the toxicity and experience it directly, it’s hard to believe the social rightness of oppressive systems.
And that final bit on John mostly experiencing having stuff gets to how he has wrapped himself in safety and privilege. Pushing himself away from any life experiences that might ask him to seriously empathize with the poor, with the young, with the queer, and with the traumatized and suffering. Letting all of the social awfulness thus go unquestioned.
Panel 6: Yep, Jocelyne is a freelance writer (so no benefits, inconsistent employment, constant need to promote herself to keep from starving, and a low pay grade that mostly keeps one in ramen meals on a good day, especially when starting out).
And that’s the thing that’s gotta be haunting a lot of her choices. Knowing that a bad month could wipe her out because she doesn’t have savings, understanding how most supplemental jobs in Indiana would legally be able to fire her for being trans (and would), and knowing that her housing is wholly dependent on her landlord not knowing she’s trans (it’s also legal to deny housing to a person based on their gender identity). Not to mention all the other stuff she faces for just being trans in today’s society.
When you’re close to the raggedy edge, it’s the most terrifying thing to risk losing the safety net of family, because being without that safety net means running a serious risk of becoming homeless during a bad month, especially if you live paycheck to paycheck or slightly less than that like Jocelyne.
My reaction to panels 1-6
HOLY ODIN’S LEFT NIPPLE, I WANT THAT COLOR OF EYE, ITS MAJESTIC.
KLONO’S TUNGSTEN TEETH AND CURVING CARBALLOY CLAWS!
Now I REALLY wonder about Jordan:
At first I thought maybe he married a Jehovah’s Witness or some other non-mainstream sect, or perhaps was an atheist.
Or, maybe he had a child out of wedlock or some other sin.
Now I feel little sick wondering if maybe it isn’t something truly horrible, ala the older molest-y Duggar who was preying on family friends as well. What if he was molested by a member of the clergy/community and went on to do something similar with a member of the community, something abused children have been known to do. (NOT stating that all abused abuse, only that the cycle has been known to perpetuate itself, esp. in those shame-ridden denialist cultures where the victim never receives real therapy, only the church-approved kind that blames the victim…)
“Can’t we ask Jordan for help?”
“Joyce, our brother kills people for money. I really don’t think that we need his brand of help.”
“Oh, so he’s kinda a ‘Deadpool’, yo?”
“Sort of, Becky. Imagine The Punisher but less sane and with fewer ethics and a fetish for sparkly precious objects… On the other hand, he’s excellent for breaking the ice at parties.”
And you fine sir or Madame, win the comments section.
“Professional killer. It’s a growth industry.”
Joyce, by your “eldest” logic your mother would be a font of understanding and support for Becky.
For those imagining the horrors that Jordan is getting up to, remember this strip:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/takeafter/
Hank thinks he’s still a good kid and that rebellious Joyce takes after him. I think these are both marks in his favour.
The thing about Hank’s seal of approval is that, well, frankly, Hank’s also not that great. It’s just that the majority of the Browns (minus Joyce and Joss) are so horribly shitty that Hank comes out great.
I call it the Pope Effect: this pope is also a pretty terrible person, but the ones before him were so much worse that anything that’s even barely progressive (or simply not regressive) fills many people with wonder.
Granted, but what I mean is that we can probably rule out Jordan being a career criminal or a hardcore anti-government survivalist or something.
Joss was so exasperated in the last panel, her glasses straightened. (Compare Panel 3 to Panel 6.)
I wish I could eyeroll like that.
Annnnd John just level up to high king douche of the Baggites. I mean, I can understand storming off and out of a conversation about a subject I personally and deeply have ideological differences about. I disagree with his views and think he is kind of a douche, but I can at least see myself doing the same thing (say, if I was arguing for gay rights to a table of hardcore christians).
On the other hand, stranding my kid brother (unknown at the time to really be my kid sister) because she said some mean things about my fancy new ride…that’s on a whole other plane of douchebaggery.
Funnily enough, that’s the only thing about Jonathan so far that I don’t immediately object to. I mean, it’s not something that I would do, but I can understand the line of reasoning of “well, if you object to my car so much, then maybe you shouldn’t ride in it.”
But Jonathan is such a horrible person, does it really matter WHY we judge him so? It’s not like the man hasn’t given us a plethora of reasons to choose from.
That was a *fantastic* punchline. Got a good laugh from that one, Willis. 😀
Ramentown, eh.
I know this is a horrible thing to contemplate happening to an evangelical family.
But I can’t stop thinking that Jordan might be… might be…
Jesus this is hard…
A Catholic…
One simple way for Jordan to be at outs with Carol and Hank AND not be on Joss’s side either is if he went a more traditional route of booze, NASCAR, siring illegitimate children on teenage girls, etc. The rest of the family wouldn’t approve of him and he wouldn’t approve of them, especially his sissy expletive deleted brother.
I’m not saying that’s the case, I’m saying it’s a simple scenario that would fit the facts we have so far. There are lots of ways to hate your religious parents AND your counter-culture siblings.
I’m guessing Jordan either married a woman who had a divorce before she met him and otherwise is still a fundie or he converted to another religion that advocates transphobia.
Unlikely but one of the few things I haven’t seen guessed- does not agree with parent’s views and split with them because of that, but outed Joss to someone(s), perhaps mutual friends (on purpose or not).
I’m surprised Joyce (and John) weren’t clued in on this. Joss was being pretty openly supportive of Becky.
Yeah, but then she followed John out of the restaurant during the argument. I understand why, but Joyce didn’t. She probably thought that Jocelyne was on John’s side and was only being nice to Becky out of politeness. It must have been a pretty nice surprise to hear Jocelyne stating clearly that Joyce doesn’t need to spend time trying to convince her to be a good person, like she’s doing with Hank and trying to do with the rest of her family. That she already thought Joyce was doing the right thing, and that she supports both her and Becky and doesn’t think they’re being led astray by the evil secular college and atheist friends.
Not enough blue color here, need to import Joyce’s kid from alternate universe.
“We are what what we experience.”
That’s both deep and disturbing.
Disturbing because wtf does experience being sick and job-less make me? o_o
I *think* that what Joss means there is that since Jonathan is a heterosexual christian and that gives him no problems, he can’t understand why other people won’t just be heterosexual christians and so they have no problems as well. If I understood correctly, transposing it to your case would mean that you would be able to understand the difficulties that other sick, jobless people go through.
Which, honestly, is totally adorable and I just want to protect naive little Jocelyne forever, because it’s not like plenty of poor Americans don’t vote Republican.
P.S.: I like how the comment editor recognises “christian” but thinks that “christians” is a typo, as if saying “ok, one person I can accept, but there are multiple people who believe this?” On the other hand, since you’d be hard-pressed to find two christians who believe the same thing, it’s probably accurate.
It makes you resilient.
As a chronically sick and currently unemployed person I want to say how much I hate it when people say “bad stuff makes you stronger”.
It doesn’t. After some time it makes you bitter and depressed. It makes you lie to other people, cause you get really unpretty response like “ugh, you’re always sick”.
Please don’t think that I mean to antagonize you for that comment. It’s probably meant to be nice.
*appropriate supportive gesture* As a fellow struggler, it was meant to be kind and non-dismissive, I promise.
I feel ya on this, [boring exposition of my own life that explains why I relate to you quite a bit] we’re in a very similar boat. I’m pretty bitter and depressed myself. Pointing out silver linings or reminding folks of their own agency, in a way I’d hope to hear from an ally (or a way my therapist has helped me), is part of fighting that personal bitterness and paying it forward to someone who needs it.
That’s not a flawless approach though and sometimes the best intentions of support can completely miss the mark (oh my god have I been on the receiving end of that). I think you have an incredibly valid point. Thanks 🙂 I’m like…. two for two on trying to validate someone here and then hurting someone else in the process. Trying to learn on my feet as a noob to the comments–the discussion here is so much more sensitive and thoughtful than I’m used to online and I like it very much even though I mess it up a bit sometimes.
I’m really sorry you have to put up with that too.
I really, really hope this doesn’t turn to Joyce breaking Jocelyne’s heart by, if Joss comes out here, going “What? You’re a girl? Hahaha that’s not a thing!” Since she hasn’t had experience with trans issues yet (I’m assuming from one comment she made that she’s unaware of Carla being trans yet).
I mean, she’s obviously learned and become much more accepting since her kind of dismissive beginnings, but it’s still new territory for Joyce.
That sounds more like Becky (remember her talk with Billie?) than Joyce. Even at the start of the strip, as much as I dislike Joyce then (and she still hasn’t climbed all the way up), that sounds too openly hurtful to come out of her unless it’s a response to being antagonised (like with Sarah).
My example made here might be bad – but Joyce not immediately understanding what Jocelyne means if she comes out, and accidentally saying something dismissive or hurtful because she doesn’t understand, was more of the jist of the conversation I was trying to use there.
But yeah that’s also something Becky would probably more literally say.
Joyce is taking a class where it would be surprising if gender identity hadn’t come up at all.
That’s later in the semester. When it’s dramatically appropriate.
It has come up, if only briefly.
“Life, like gender, is not binary.” is what Leslie said in class once, as part of the first lecture, where she reminded everyone that they still had so many things to learn, no matter if they thought they already knew everything.
Hee! Jocelyne has some of the best facial expressions in the comic.
Always nice, in these days of degraded English skills, to find someone who knows it’s “toe the party line” and not “tow the party line” 🙂
I think the ‘wrong’ one sticks because it’s successfully illustrative, so seems to make sense. Kinda how people always say “for all intensive purposes” instead of “for all intents and purposes.”
I hope a writer can afford 3 orders of chicken fingers. From the child’s menu, of course. Otherwise, a lot of people are going to be very disappointed.
Depressing but tentative prediction: Jocelyn is going to come out to the family in order to deflect their attention away from Joyce as the “disgraced” child, destroying her cover but making it so her little sister still gets to go to college and look after her best friend.
i had a dream last night that jocelyn came out to joyce in the next few strips and she just gets SO EXCITED
Ever since this meeting started I’m like “and then Jocelyn tells Joyce and Joyce be quiet for a sec and then she’s just like “OMG I have a bigger sister now?!” and everyone’s really happy.”
Jocelyn deserves to be happy, Joyce deserves to be happy, Becky definitely deserves to be happy. These three are gonna paint the town red, THAT’S ALL I WANT
Why do people keep calling him Jocelyn?
Completely off topic but can I just say that the devastation that would result from the Brown sisters giving puppy dog eyes at the same time would be Biblical?
This storyline couldn’t come at a better time, because my WICCAN aunt with two bi daughters has shared an image on facebook that says “I don’t care what your son ‘identifies as’, he doesn’t belong in the bathroom with my daughter.” with her own words of ‘true that’ tacked onto it. I’ve now commented on it, explaining that a transgender woman has the same right as any other woman to use the woman’s restroom, but experience tells me this is gonna end like Joyce’s conversation with John.
I mean, it’s counterculture and all, but the Wicca I have exeperience with did have this odd undercurrent of a strong gender binary. It’s a shame, but I guess not all that suprising.
Most I’ve encountered are very accepting, but those are also from my generation versus my aunt who was born in the 60’s. So, good point. Plus, my aunt is Republican and borderline Christian while parading around with a Wiccan title so… My aunt’s not the best example.
Uuuugh, I hate pagans who are like that. (My subculture, so I take it personally when they show their ass.) A lot of groups cling to this “moonblood/wombyn/whatever” bullshit. I was so happy to find my local group was explicitly and vocally inclusive of trans/nb people, especially since we have a lot of older people.
So far, no word from my aunt but there is a random guy commenting with me now, citing a news article from the ‘conservativetribune’ website and insisting that there aren’t lots of transgendered people so why must we change our laws to accomodate every little group that has a gripe? His main argument boils down to ‘but little girls might use the restroom, and there’ll be a DICK around them!’.
Respond with FtM Bodybuilders using the ladies room.
So, wait. Who is Jocelyn?
‘Joshua’ is Jocelyne. She is not out to her family yet so they do not yet know that their ‘brother’ here in the booth with them is actually their sister. We the audience do, so we don’t use the name Joshua in the comments or tags. We use her chosen name.
Jocelyne is the name that “Joshua” goes by as a writer. She is transgendered, but not yet out to her family so they don’t know about the name that she’s chosen for herself. Since Willis is aware of it though, after discreetly dropping the first indication that Jocelyne was…well, Jocelyne, he re-tagged when she popped up in the comic with her name and currently tags her as Jocelyne.
Ah… Okay then.
I guess this is one of those things I missed by having only read Shortpacked! as of this moment.
And also being extremely confused by this one, what with so many storylines going on at once.
HEY I FOUND WILLIS’S NIGHTMARE FUEL AT THE THRIFT STORE! 😀
Blugh. This is square in the category of “childhood things I want to forget”
I just had somebody I know on Tumblr reply saying this and Colby’s Clubhouse was all they were allowed to listen to as kids.
HYMMEL!!!
Anthropomorphic books, furniture, lamps, and musical instruments (the concertina)…. I think I know where Paul Reubens got some of his inspiration for what became “Pee Wee’s Playhouse”.
“Follow the leader, Jesus!” Okay, I get that the comma is supposed to make the sentence mean “Follow the leader, [who is] Jesus!”, but I can’t help but here it as the girl telling Jesus to follow someone else who is the leader.
JESUS, TOO, SHALL OBEY THE OLD ONES
ALL SHALL OBEY
♪ not to love the saviour is a great disgrace ♪
I shall only follow the whims of the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young. May the Old Ones tremble in her Name!
I’m loving these expressions, Joyce’s in the second panel especially. Gets across her emotions so well.
Darn it I just realized Joyce’s siblings and herself all have J names…. I actually know of a couple familys in real life that do this including my own
Jocelyne’s middle name appears to start with a ‘J’ as well.
Willis, would you care to elaborate?
My one friend’s parents named their fifth kid with the first initials of their first four children. The letters even go in the reverse order of the first four births.
As an English major I can confirm the alt text
Lmfao. So Joyce = childhood David, Jocelyne = current David.