Well you could not use pronouns. Especially if the person doesn’t look cis. But probably the thing everyone’s objecting to so much is her being like “oh hey does your roommate who’s a guy know he’s wearing makeup that is only for women?” which is pretty obviously rude. Of course they realize what makeup they’re wearing. And at least some people would put two and two together and realize either Booster’s not a guy, or his makeup is not for women.
I don’t get it. So someone please enlighten me cause I obviously have a bias.
Like to me he’s been introducing Booster to the characters in probably the shittiest way possible.
For instance Joyce here. Over the last ten years or three months the first semester of college she’s been through some shit. (A lot of which he was partially there for!) So much that it’s actually broken her faith. Calling that a “course correction” seems pretty shitty to me.
Who knows what he would’ve said about Sarah because she’s antisocial? Ugh! It’s kind of grating.
Walky doesn’t know (although he might guess) that she’s irreligious now. He’s describing her political shift. But for the record, when it comes to my deconversion, “course correction” wouldn’t bother me. “Broken my faith” does.
First: Sorry if I insulted your about with the “Broken faith” comment. I just couldn’t think of a better fitting term.
Second: How is Walky’s comment on Joyce’s political alignment anything more than an assumption based on what he thinks he knows about her? Have they ever talked politics. Has that ever even been brought up outside of Robin’s involvement in the story? This is what’s frustrating to me.
But again sorry. I’m not trying to rant here, but I am trying to apologize. If I insulted you or anyone. Sorry.
I mean, three months ago, she was hard conservative, to the point of dating a gay man in the hopes of turning him straight. Yes, these “horrible cliffnotes” versions of everyone are slightly insulting, but then hey, thaaaat’s Walky.
Also, Joyce proving his point within seconds kind of makes it hard to disagree with.
Not only that, but Walky’s quick, abrupt info gives context to the sudden horrible onslaught, so that hopefully Booster recognizes it as ignorance rather than prejudice.
She loudly and decisively made it clear in class she no longer stood by the right-wing, and her church’s, position on gay rights and treatment of gays in general. Walky was there for that. Walky and Joyce have spent a lot of time near each other, he is definitely in a good position to see how much she has changed.
If we’re gonna cut Joyce some slack for everything she’s gone through maybe we should cut Walky some slack for the fact that he’s clearly trying to distract himself from fixating on his dead roommate.
I don’t really get faulting Walky specifically for this. Pretty much every character in the comic is guilty of delivering lines with the sort of knowing, fourth-wall-bending snark employed in Walky’s here. It’s kind of built into the overall tone of the comic, at least when it’s not going out of its way to be as serious about something as it can.
Also just to get the rest of this rant out. Saying Joyce was “practically another Mary” IS an insult. Maybe I’m wrong cause we’ll never truly know but I can’t imagine even a day one Joyce doing something so blatantly transphobic as escorting Carla to the boys dorm.
You can say Walky’s correct here, just being honest. But that’s often used as an excuse for being a dick. How would he feel if the first things someone told a new person meeting him was that he was a lazy bum, who would rather eat his tests than apply himself, and was a complete douche to his sister for most of their lives.
Joyce, Sal, and Billie have told him things like that! On numerous occasions! Hell, Joyce even described him like that to Lucy when she was clearly interested in him! I’ll grant for most of the hall it might’ve been a bit much, but I think with Joyce specifically you gotta remember this is just how that relationship is.
What’s his excuse for everyone else? Being antagonistic with Joyce doesn’t really justi-…… uh I’m just gonna stop actually. People don’t seem to mind it and I don’t enjoy potentially ruining the experience by being overly negative in the comments.
I say this as a leftist, but taking things too seriously all the time has become a thing on the left. A lot of that is trauma from rightist trolling “its a joke” nonsense, but there are definitely a lot of people who regularly forget how to separate actual humor/audience-directed commentary/irony/sarcasm/deadpan/all of the above from real issues. I get some of it – lots of folks are depressed, and/or young, but humor is an important coping skill.
@Delavan, yup. On one hand, you can hardly blame them. May I present to you, exhibit A: the dumpster fire of events contained within the year 2020 (yes, I know it’s an easy, overused euphemism that doesn’t truly address the problem, but I’m not ready to go into detail), and the numerous events that lead up to them. It’s hard to lighten up, but on the other hand, well, what you said; coping mechanisms are a necessity.
I can’t upvote here, but this is something, I suppose.
Thats fair joyce even at her worst tired to be kind and understanding to others while mary was always mean and judgmental. To say she was a mary in any capacity was insulting
Hey you right! Joyce did participate in that and should be called out on it! I mean it’s not like Ethan initiated that relationship under false pretenses, taking advantage of her obvious naivety the day after she was nearly date raped *which he didn’t know about* But hey when she found out he was gay she didn’t break off the relationship with him!
That’s totally in the same league as being blatantly and unapologetically transphobic to Carla, blackmailing your clinically depressed R.A. and trying to deny said R.A. the help she needs just to cover your own ass which very much could have lead to that R.A. dying in near catatonic depression.
Joyce and Mary. Basically the same person six months ago. But I guess all of it’s open to interpretation. Everyone has their own metric on how they judge things. I can’t fault anyone for it. Joyce did do something objectively wrong. Fair enough.
No, not quite. Because when it all comes down to it, Joyce still was not only willing, but happy, and thrilled, to become best friends with Dorothy. Because even though she was the #1 thing her faith said was evil – essentially, denying the existence of God – she could see past those things and instead see the person behind it and love them for who they were.
There’s a difference between having the underlying worldview, and how it leads you to treat another person. Joyce regurgitated rhetoric given to her, but when she actually encountered people who represented these things, she always looked beyond the rhetoric and towards the person.
Therefore, she DIDN’T go try to convert Dorothy, or Agatha, or Walky, or anyone else. She defended her friendships to those who would attack them. When she found out Ethan’s orientation, he ALSO told her that’s what he wanted, and because she liked HIM as a person and didn’t yet have something to bash down the rhetoric, she went along with it.
At this point, and also earlier. If she found out about Carla, or Jocelyne? She’d see the person. She doesn’t have much of a relationship with Carla, but I see her responding in a similar way to Jocelyne as when Becky came out to her. Even Carla – back at Joyce’s worst, she’d NEVER go escort her to a boy’s dorm. Probably, she’d just smile, treat her like how she’d like to be treated, and at worst, just avoid pronoun usage.
And yes, there’s a huge difference between that and telling someone to go back to where they belong.
It took her some time and she had a few bad moments. Her initial reaction to finding out Dorothy was atheist was a complete system crash. She had that awful soul/flower petal rant after the sex tape incident. Probably some other things I’m forgetting.
Her initial reaction to Carla or Jocelyne is likely to be bad. She’s not going to just smile and accept. She’s going to freak out and say and do some painful things. Then she’ll learn and get better, because she fundamentally cares more about people than about her rules. But there’s still struggle.
Which we’re going to see a bit of here.
With Carla, she might even blurt out something like “why aren’t you in the boy’s wing?” What she won’t do is what Mary did – save it up and deliberately use it to hurt. Doesn’t mean it won’t hurt, of course.
This has derailed from what I’m even really pissed about. I’m not trying to defend Joyce. I’m just upset Walky would compare her to Mary. It’s a very mean spirited comparison to make ignoring any and all context or nuance to her as an individual. He’s kind of being a jerk. Joyce’s actions should be scrutinized, that’s not my problem at all here. Maybe it’s my fault for even bringing it up in the first place. I just don’t know why it’s okay for Walky or anyone to say stuff like this about people? But I guess it’s funny.
To be fair, I doubt Walky knows quite how awful Mary is. Most of her worst behavior is done in “private”, directly to the people she’s bullying. It’s unlikely Carla told anyone about the incident with Mary leading her to the boys’ dorms and knowledge of her blackmail of Ruth and Billy probably didn’t make it out of their floor. From his perspective she’s just a bitter, judgmental Jesus freak who happily tells people they’re condemned to hell. Her and proto-Joyce did, honestly, have a lot of the same core beliefs instilled in them by the church.
At her core, I see Joyce as a good person who’s had bad training and toxic influences, but is still basically a good person who has the ability and willingness to change for the better.
Mary is someone who enjoys being “better” than everyone around her and uses her beliefs to bludgeon people over the head with her supposed moral superiority. She has no interest in learning or changing and doesn’t see herself as seeing any improvement because she’s already “purer” than everyone else.
It’s possible that she is capable of changing, but I haven’t seen it yet. I’ve just seen false piety, annoying holier-than-thouness, and maliciousness.
I agree with you about the Mary comment, that’s way out of line. Beyond that … you’re not wrong. Walky’s description of everyone else on the floor is a riduculously superficial bullet-point, possibly because that really is all he knows about them, on account of being a lazy bum, including in social situations. Booster themself seems to have picked this up very quickly and not taken Walky’s descriptions seriously, and few people seem to have actually been offended, either because they know Walky and know that’s what he’s like, or because his superficial grasp of them is exactly how they want people to see them (thinking specifically of Ruthless and Carla here). And apart from the Mary thing, his description of Joyce in particular reads as a coded (and recieved) warning to Booster about the impending panel 4.
That’s actually an interesting bit I didn’t pick up, if true.
For all the ire at the comparison to Mary, if Walky was deliberately intending to both warn Booster how Joyce was likely to react and tell them she could learn, it was very neatly done.
Joyce first responded to Becky coming out and getting kicked out of school by saying she was a good person who made a mistake, like Billie’s alcoholism.
I understand the impulse to ship two of the only three (maybe four) canon trans characters in the strip, but maybe consider: trans people don’t have to only date other trans people
shoot, this should be “four (maybe five)”. I forgot about Zaph – I’m counting Carla, Jocelyne, Booster, and Zaph now, and Malaya as a maybe. We don’t quite know where she stands yet.
Yeah, maybe don’t ship them instantly. But I’m all in favor of their making friends. Yay for friendship and support systems!
Incidentally we don’t know that Booster’s trans, though.
They’re a they on the character page, but haven’t stated anything about their gender identity. Admittedly there’s an implied “ex-roomate didn’t respect it so it’s probably not cis”.
But Booster’s also allowed to wear ‘lady make-up’ and not be a lady!
I may be wrong but I believe being non-binary means that you are trans because your gender identity doesn’t align with your assigned gender at birth. That’s what my non-binary friends told me, anyway. So Booster, as someone whose pronouns are they/them, would be trans
I thought non-binary also applies to a-gendered or multi gendered while trandgendered most often applies to those who identify with a gender that is opposite from the sexual organs they were born with? So… overlap exists via multi, fluid, other, opposite… but is a gendered considered trans if they dont identify with gender at all? are they synonyms? truely want to know as ive heard differences on that on my end.
What Seregiel says is very on point. There’s a lot of nonbinary people who feel that they are trans, and a lot of nonbinary people who think of nonbinary as being a subset of trans because it is revealing your identity as not being what you were assigned. I as a nonbinary person do not take this position.
My journey from my assigned gender to identifying as nonbinary was a mess, and one that I tried my best to understand in an organized way. But I have come to see gender AS nonbinary, not just for myself. Even if someone wants to identify as male or female, that does not have to mean the same thing for them as it does for everyone else. A male person does not have to wear certain clothes, do certain activities, like certain things, or be heterosexual. The same goes for female people. So even if you don’t identify as “nonbinary,” in my eyes, your gender identity fits into a non-binaric framework (one that has more than two and/or opposing options).
As for myself, I don’t see myself as having “transformed” or “transitioned” from my dead identity to my current one. I see the past as a formative part of what I am today. Having been raised in that assigned gender gave me perspective on how people are treated, how they are expected to behave. It helped me be a better non-binary person in the end.
Yeah, added complexity when you also have to sort through disagreement of culturally defined gender roles. Ive dont fit very well in a female gender role if looking at what is considered feminine or masculine to enjoy, but I don’t think those traits are what make anyone male or female. I don’t think I’ve ever felt “female” and have had Malaya type “I look down” moments, but I am also comfortable in my presentation, so I go with cis female. Im not sure gender is something I feel strongly as being comfortable in. Rather, I exist and how people interact with me is not disagreeable, therefore I haven’t felt the need to examine further (which is totally a priviledge). As Carla says, gender is totally made up but also real. It seems to be a feeling of your identity rather than an acceptance of a certain set of expectations should be applied to you. (beyond human decency… because…why do we do this to eachother again?.)
Ha. When I do my web comic, on the character pages there will be a large number of unrelated inconsistent backstories which will change at random each day.
I wonder how Joyce will respond to learning Booster is a they and not a he. She’s still adjusting to these foreign concepts but I wonder if this one will confuse her.
Ngl it confused me when I first learned about it, so I can’t say much there.
Exposure to they/them pronouns on Twitter is one thing, and meeting a nonbinary person who asks you to use their pronouns face to face is another. I’m hoping she has at least some grasp of the concept, but it’s going to be an adjustment for Joyce either way.
Intellectually she should be there. She did take gender studies and pass it, so I’d guess that means she at least read and was tested about nonbinary people, and given her recent history I’m sure she’ll be accepting rather than judgemental.
So assuming she can reprogram the pronoun lobe of her brain, and doesn’t make any false assumptions or faux pas once being told Booster’s preferred pronouns, and doesn’t make things awkward, this should be fine.
TV just started acknowledging we exist, like, this year, I dunno if we’re in textbooks yet. I was plenty online as a kid and still had to find out about gay, bi, and trans folks on the street, and by “on the street” I mean “by literally meeting people who were those things, sometimes on streets but usually in classrooms.”
Textbooks, specially university textbooks, used to addapt faster the pop culture. Not sure if that still holds true, but you’d probably see non-binary talk in a textbook before you saw it on TV.
Their teacher was a lesbian. Im sure (very hopeful?) Leslie would add that discourse to the class whether it was in the books or not considering her own upbringing.
Reprogramming the pronoun lobe is hard. In adult second-language acquisition, pronouns and gendered words are very hard to get right if the new language doesn’t work the same as your first language.
(Source: My ex-wife got her PhD in second language small-word usage while we were together. Also, personal experience learning Spanish.)
One of my sisters-in-law has Balinese and Bahasa Indonesian as her first two languages, which have neither number nor gender (and much simpler tenses and moods than English). She has been living in Australia and speaking English for forty years, but she still gets pronoun genders and agreement of number between subject and verb wrong more often than not. It’s very hard to turn these things into habits.
Hell, I’m in my thirties and I only understand English, and using “they” as a singular pronoun still doesn’t sound grammatically correct to me. (Not that using it that way is wrong, because it’s not, it’s just my brain puts the “grammatical error” green squiggly line under it and I have to ‘right-click – ignore’ every time.)
Very true.
I have several trans friends. Most of them I met after they came out and thus have their pronouns organised correctly. However, one of them I met when they were still in the closet, and I knew them first as a Cis woman. Only recently did he come out as a trans man. As such, while I know that he should have male pronouns, I still sometimes slip up because I’m used to thinking of that person as a cis female and haven’t yet retrained my brain on that point.
Something similar happened with another cis female friend of mine who changed her name. It took a couple of years before my brain stopped using her old name even when I remembered to use her new one. For a long time, I had to remember that “A = B” until I finally started thinking “B”. Now, several more years later, thinking of her as “A” seems strange. It happens – it just takes a while to rewrite those neural pathways.
One friend came out over ten years ago, and while at the time it was strange thinking of “him” as a her, now it’s strange remembering the “him” version (although she speaks about it a lot at events as a trans author).
Another recently came out, and it’s only been a year to go from “ok, no longer ‘her'” to “oh yeah, I can’t believe he used to be she!”
Just to be contrary, my bet is on Joyce, once being informed, trying VERY hard in a “When Speaking About Booster, a gendered pronoun comes out, but it’s 50/50 WHICH gendered pronoun comes out, and she corrects herself near-instantly.”
I once told my aunt that my partner used they pronouns, but I phrased it as “X goes by they instead of he or she,” which led to the sentence “Does They miss her parents? He’s moved very far away.”
A thing for sending people small amounts of money (or large amounts I assume, but the idea was that people could buy you a coffee if they like your post, that sort of thing)
And the implication as I see it is that Booster and other people directly affected by Joyce’s ignorance are not the ones who should be doing it as unpaid labour.
Cause of course, this is how children learn and grow, by being kept from this sort of information.
Ahhh, no, that was bitterness showing at how ungenerous we have become as college students. Professors should stop doing the group projects. Because students shouldn’t be helping each other learn. That’s the Prof’s job, they’re Paid to do it. We’re not paid.
We are not the 1st year class or 2020, we are each an island, entire unto itself.
Ko-fi, says Google, is a site where you can set up a contribution page to support you art. “Buy me a coffee” kind of thing. Why Booster needs it I don’t know.
I dunno, his expression reads more apologetic than amused. Like, yeah, Booster just got misgendered mere seconds after complaining this person was likely to transphobe at them, they deserve some cash.
I think there’s a difference between ignorance and transphobia – but Joyce talking about somebody the way she did right in front of them was rather rude! (everything after “who’s your friend? Is he your new roommate?” – I’m giving her a pass on assuming his gender because the majority of people still expect people to fit a binary there, although obviously it’s not great)
Transphobia can be born of ignorance or thoughtlessness rather than malice, but it is still transphobia. That said, I don’t think Joyce is acting out of malice.
Her habit of talking about people in the third person while they’re right next to her is grating.I can’t remember specific instances, but I’ve got a feeling we’ve seen her do that a lot when meeting new faces.
“NO, I shall NOT talk to ANYONE until after we’ve been properly introduced, because that is what Jezebels do”.
Right now, this annoys me more that her assumption of a pronoun for Walky’s roommate who after all lives in the boy’s wing. Don’t just ignore someone who’s standing there.
And that make-up comment! For love’s sake I so want to slap her gently but firmly right now.
I think Becky has rubbed off on her, and she’s ignoring the barb of Walky’s introduction by type casting herself into it. She already wanted to know about Booster, and now she doesn’t have to be careful with how she goes about it because these people showed up to her door and were rude to her. Booster is unfortunate collateral, but I’d not feel the need to organize a respectful inquiry after any of that vomit in my literal doorway. I’d not make the makeup comment because I don’t view make up as gendered, but people assume genders all the time and that one is an understandable error. Particularly since Joyce thinks Walky should be female repellent. Rude? Yes. Still way more friendly in response than she would need to be in this situation? Also, yes.
my social group uses Cashapp because it gives you the option of having a Debit Card tied to your account issued. This is useful for, just as an example, basically firewalling your actual bank account because unlike my bank’s debit card or Paypal, attempts to withdraw more than is in the account are refused, rather than overdrafting.
PayPal isn’t social enough for some people. It doesn’t share how you spend your money with your friends. You can’t like someone’s panhandling attempts. etc. etc.
And why should my spending habits be anybody else’s business? Why should I care if So-and-So likes that Cheerleader tipped What’s-Her-Face $3.50?
I don’t know if social media is turning the world vapid and narcissistic, or if it’s just amplifying the vapid narcissists we already have by turning them into “influencers”.
On one hand I kind of want Walky to be like “This is my roommate, THEIR name is Booster” but a) Joyce should learn this directly (not necessarily from Booster, but I mean, not just by being corrected without explanation, or it won’t stick and b) Joyce might be like “you have other roommates?” or “why are you calling him ‘they?'” or something
I doubt Walky knows Booster is non-binary, he’s never been exactly quick on the uptake about this sort of subject in the past, and is kinda in a “minimal care zone” place right now.
Would work better, maybe, Walky innocently assuming that, getting corrected by Booster and treating it with a shrug, while Joyce gets all curious and inquisitive about it.
Presumably that was part of the intro that was off-screen. First off, because I do think the college would have/should have checked that Walky was okay with a NB roommate before swapping rooms, but also because Walky clearly recognizes the Joyce issue right away.
When I started college in 2014, I had to go through many, many hoops to have my preferred name displayed *anywhere* in school software. Gender was binary on all school documentation and I couldn’t change it without legal documents. They absolutely would not have known to ask if my roommates were okay with my nonbinary-ness. I didn’t go to Indiana, but I imagine it’s not much better even now.
Yeah, I somehow hadn’t even considered new classes as part of the new semester. Wonder what we’ll see?
I’ll definitely miss gender studies. Hope we still see Leslie fairly often.
Going by Walky’s reaction in the last panel, I think Walky’s been informed, or at least knows enough to know this is going to be an awkward conversation.
Walky says things like “center left” and “socialist brown immigrants” now. Clearly something shifted during the timeskip that upgraded his mindfulness.
I’m sure spending more time with Sal had something to do with it.
I really dislike that your quoting of “Socialist brown immigrants” stuck out in my head as a crayon colour. Now I’m going to have to be careful not to repeat that out loud, out of context.
I think it makes sense just because of Walky’s current “fucks no longer given” mood, and that he’s snarking about everyone being half-forced to contributed to Joyce’s growth.
Just figure that Willis would want to more explicitly establish the character as being non-binary in the text of the comic, and Walky making an innocent mistake is a good on-ramp for that sorta thing.
As much as I understand their anger/annoyance at having to explain it again, I really hope they explain it to her gently. I dont want to see Joyce upset that she upset somebody.
Joyce doesn’t know what nonbinary means so it’s still her upbringing at fault. Though, she isn’t aware of Carla being trans and we don’t know what are Joyce’s ideas about trans people.
To be fair I know a lot of not far right people who dont know what nonbinary I’d my father’s pretty left wing but cant rap his head around nonbinary people getting him to accept trans people was hard enough.
Ooooh, that’s a real good benefit though. I wasn’t too keen on its interface when last I tried it to split pizza costs, but maybe I’ll put it back on my phone and give it another shot.
I would be pleasantly surprised to find out Agatha is a polyamorous lesbian, but as is I’m pretty sure Mandy, Grace, and Sierra are the only ones in that polycule atm.
Yyyup, Booster has got it figured out. Time for Joyce to have a “learning experience” to begin to understand trans and nonbinary people. Don’t worry Booster: you get to share this teaching job with Carla, Jocelyn, Malaya, and maybe Zaph.
Out of all of those, Carla’s got to be the only one who’s even remotely interested in teaching Joyce, and that’s mostly because she gets to talk about herself.
I wouldn’t be so sure–the one time we’ve seen her discussing trans stuff in-depth, when Malaya approached her about it, she seemed kinda put off until she clocked Malaya was also trans. She’s also avoided roller derby because she doesn’t want to deal with that sort of thing. Explaining her gender to a cis person seems fairly low on her list of priorities.
Are we sure that Malaya is actually trans? I read her “Sometimes I’m not even sure myself if I’m a woman” as possibly non-binary, possibly trans, and I was like “Interesting, see where Willis goes with this”.
But since you seem to be pretty sure, now I’m wondering if I missed a strip or a comment from Willis somewhere?
Being nonbinary is being trans. Any deviation from the gender you’re “supposed” to be based on what some doctor said when you were an infant makes you trans.
Like with any queer issue, you’ll see some deviation of opinion, but this is the position I (they/them) have marked out and I feel confident in saying I’m not alone on that.
Thank you for the vocab teaching!
I was until now under the impression that trans was, so to speak, extremely binary – as in “I’m not this gender I was assigned, so I’m that one”, which implies there’s only two options. The word is misleading then.
I hope this doesn’t come across as rude, I am very pleased that you have let yourself understand the word differently. However, I… don’t feel that the word is misleading? The moment I read the first line on the wikipedia page on transgender, I understood that it inlcuded nonbinary identities.
Oh, I see that it has since been rewritten to be even clearer on this subject. neat. The line I was reffering to is this: “Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their sex assigned at birth.” A good summation.
You’re certainly not coming across as rude! I’m sorry that I’m coming across as stupid 😉
I think my understanding of it came for one thing from my parsing of the etymology of the word. Trans- = through and out the other side, to my analytical brain at least, at first contact with the word. But that’s way back, and in the meantime I don’t think I’ve read recent definitions. I should have and that’s on me. My understanding of how the terms are used now come from real-life experiences.
For example I’ve met a few people who describe themselves as non-binary but don’t like to be called trans, I think that cemented the idea taht there was a difference for me.
Also during a volleyball competition there were those two trans ladies who were being dismissed as “not belonging in the women’s league, cause their unusual size and muscle strength gives them an unfair advantage”.
Which obviously is a very fraught issue, but in the subsequent discussion, these two players were very clear on the fact that they were women, and not just “not-men”. If that makes sense.
Then again those are all discussion that people were having in French (and in France), so there might be some discrepancies between the way the words are used here and in the States.
In short, I’m willing to take whatever definition trans people are giving and I’m sorry if my comment was insulting.
‘Beyond’ is actually a better glossing of trans- than ‘opposite’, since it does include the ‘opposite’ uses where it would be ‘beyond the midline between opposites’ (as in chemistry), or ‘beyond the divider also named in this word’ (most geographical uses); or merely ‘away from’, as it is in transgender (or transhuman, transform, transmit, and transport).
Thank you for the explenation. Your milage may wary, obviously, but I don’t personally think you were being insulting. Trying to self-improve is a *big* sign of a lack of malice.
I was replying mostly out of curiosity, and partially to remind people that wikipedia is a very useful resource.
I try to use it whenever I realize that I’m not one hundred percent certain what a word or concept means.
Oof, sports and who is and isn’t allowed to participate. God, what a well of bigotry. One I feel like I should talk about, but I don’t have the energy for that right now.
I thought non binary also included a gendered, which isn’t necessarily trans as it is absence rather than other??? are these 100% synonyms? I asked that up top too but just going to go into the def train until I find a solid confirmation. ive read these entries too, but they seem to shift. and they’ve also shifted based on people I’ve talked too… which makes sense as label owning goes, but not for organizing my brain.
Willis said on patreon that Booster is not our only non binary person in the main cast. I would assume Malaya is the other unless the other silhouette is not, in fact, Billie with a haircut, but a heretofore unknown person.
That should probably say ‘hardly even’…’hardly’ on its lonesome could mean that, or ‘they’re not that minor’… Stupid English and its weird ironic uses screwing up connotations.
It could be that having her intimate experiences discussed and letting down some of her barriers for somebody’s idle curiosity didn’t appeal, but that she was very willing to do so in a safe space to help somebody else with their own journey
Yeah…once she’s convinced it’s safe to tell Joyce, she’ll certainly be overjoyed to be able to share with family…and properly braced for the incoming storm of questions, since she knows her little sister.
And ‘safe to tell Joyce’ likely also means ‘safe to tell Hank,’ because certain as I am Joyce would be supportive as soon as she understands, I’m not sure how long she’d be able to pull off knowingly using the wrong pronouns for Jocelyne until she’s ready to come out. She seems fine with lying by omission, certainly, but her poker face is not great and I think consistently trying to use ‘he’ pronouns around Hank while adjusting her paradigm would be… ripe for trouble. Though to me that’s just an argument for ‘Jocelyne doesn’t come out to Joyce before Hank any period where they’re going to be around either of their parents consistently.’
Well I’m still expecting Jocelyne comes out to the family in the midst of a heated argument, which will be awful, but also possibly good.
One word from Carol and Joyce will go from painful confusion to “I will fight for her!” and never look back.
Uuuuugh. I hate it when people talk about me like I’m not right there in front of them. It’s even worse when they talk to me directly that way, like we’re talking about a third party who isn’t present. Throwing it right back at them (either talking about them like they’re not there or rebutting questions with “maybe we should ask him”) usually shuts that down and puts them on the back foot though.
Empathy. I have had to do this a lot with my parents, who have had a bad habit of asking questions they want me to answer, but talking about me in third person and speaking towards someone else.
Ugh, yeah. The most disarming tactic I’ve used is by simply replying “maybe [mom’s first name] should ask him.” That usually puts a stop to it for a while.
I’ve been listening to a lot of Gayest Episode Ever, a podcast where queer people talk about episodes of non-queer sitcoms that have queer one-off characters, and so Booster clocking that they’re about to become a Very Special Episode delights me to no end.
Ooh! Weird slang synonyms that rhyme: “Grok” (from the Martian… er, Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land), meaning to fully understand and accept. “Clock” (from an unknown etymology, possibly slang related to either ‘clockwatching, recognizing a ‘face’, or military clock positioning ) meaning “to notice.”
I like Joyce but it’s always nice to see an acknowledgment that, if you’re not a member of the kyriarchy, she’d be extremely frustrating to know in real life, for reasons beyond her actual personality.
Okay so you know how “patriarchy” is what we call the fact that the world’s run by men (and that’s bad)? The kyriarchy is, like, all of it–folks who’re male, white, Christian, straight, cis, perisex, allosexual, able-bodied, non-neurodivergant, the works.
…But Joyce is female, no longer Christian, and pretty much in denial about not being bi by this point. Does she really count or do you just have to have a few of those traits to count?
Joyce reenforces kyriarchal ideals in a lot of the stuff she’s said and believed over the past decade, is what I’m trying to say. Like, women can enforce patriarchy without being men–by promoting subservience, fighting reproductive rights, etc. It’s more describing a set of beliefs that keep the underclasses down, not necessarily the strict set of folks at the top.
……except she’s already had her religion more or less broken at this point, every authority figure she had has been torn down in her eyes, and you don’t deprogram someone over night.
That doesn’t make her not frustrating! People are entitled to feel some kind of way when even a well-meaning person bigots at them! Even if it’s by accident!
I’m with Wack’d. I am glad whenever I calmly, kindly explain why, say, the concept of ‘curing’ autism is repugnant to me and why I consider Autism Speaks a hate group and the person I’m explaining it to genuinely listens and learns.
I’m still damn tired of having to do so, because it’s about ten minutes of my life at best I could have spent doing other things if society weren’t so damn ableist to begin with, and I don’t know until after if I actually had any effect on them or if I should’ve just walked away. Even when it’s not done with malice, it’s an exhausting experience. And you have to be nice and polite, because if not there’s even odds at best the person you’re talking to gets defensive, and you’re SO TIRED of having this discussion and it’s genuinely hard to continue assuming ignorance when they express sympathy for the latest Caregiver Murdering Disabled Family Member, or ask why you can’t just use a reusable straw, or whatever the issue that prompted this is. And sometimes you feel like you’re being used as Great-Uncle Steve’s personal Google on the subject. And that’s just the comments you choose to step in on, because you will almost certainly experience enough on a regular basis you have to choose to ignore the ‘oh, but you don’t look X!’ or smile and shake your head at the cashier asking you to donate to the hate group because it’s ‘awareness month.’ (Almost inevitably, they did not choose this, they have no say in this, they do not deserve the rant you lock away in your heart.) It wears you down, it puts you in a bad mood (especially if they AREN’T getting it, but even if they do it’s another reminder that society as a whole makes no real effort to understand you that will probably linger,) and it’s an unspoken cost to being part of any kind of underrepresented population that we will have to do this over and over and over again. The statistics about sexual assault rates among my specific demographic live in my head in a way they never will for anyone I explain this to. (Or unemployment, or how it’s a little punch in the chest every time someone talks about virgins living in their parents’ house, or the knowledge of just how many celebrities have ‘questions’ about vaccines, or…)
The thing about microaggressions is that they accumulate in the person experiencing them, because it’s never just the one person making the most recent comment. Sure, after running into a hundred Joyces I’d be happy they all expressed willingness to learn, but I still spent a collective 16 hours and change having this same conversation a hundred times, and repeating these same points, and even after they walked away I was still exhausted and probably had whatever unpleasant topic I just had to bring up stuck in my head now.
Being a learning experience is terrible, and while I’m glad that it tends to be ignorance more often than malice, I damn well wish I didn’t need to plead my case for my ability to exist in society in the first place.
And I think that’s where you loose her as a potential ally, because she still needs time to learn things she never encountered before. Her lack of filter is actually one of the thing allowing her to learn.
Though I agree, it’s totally not fun to be part of her learning experience in moments like these, but, you know, I still think it makes her act like less of an asshole than Walky is right now.
Joyce was definitely indoctrinated into that, but the whole comic is basically about her breaking out of it, so while initial contact is likely to be frustrating, the payoff is likely to be worth it.
The most unrealistic thing about Joyce is how quickly she’s been able to drop so many toxic beliefs. At least in comic time.
I was going to say it was her chaos status… the sheer amount of drama that happened in 1 term… how does she not have a shrink yet? Is that one of the silhouettes? Does Dorothy, Amber, Ruth, Billie, and all these kiddos finally getting help earn us an intro to their therapist? They need one. And hugs.
That stuff may as well be Krylon 2x this past week. Maintaining a “healthy” orange glow will definitely distract from his gasping like a fish after climbing the same set of stairs multiple times on a battery of feel-good drugs for a photo op.
Look out, Booster, you’re about to be caught in the Joyce Brown social positivity hurricane!
Seriously, I would have liked Booster to ask: “Do you expect any answers to those questions or are you just blurting out your entire free-associating chain of thought as soon as it passes through your brain?” Because I seriously think that is what Joyce does!
That would be in-character from what we’ve seen so far – when Walky was “I’m getting a new roommate cause mine fell off a building” Booster replied exactly with this kind of “I’m reacting not so much to the words but to the underlying assumptions and mechanisms”-attitude.
So yeah, they might say something along these lines, which would be good for Joyce but, alas, once more means that Booster has to do all the work.
when i was 5 i was watching marilyn manson being interviewed on tv or something like that but the idea of man with make up was so inconceivable to me i thought his face just looked like that. so fair enough i guess
Not sure Joyce is oblivious in this case… Disrespectful, yes (though not on purpose, this is Joyce…), but being oblivious implies you know the situation and forgot about it…
One can argue she should have known, but in this case knowing requires having been educated on what neutral pronouns and trans people are, which I don’t think she was. Society is to blame here, not Joyce as an individual.
If I am wrong and her gender studies did cover these matters, then yes, you have all rights to blame her (and still blame society for not making this clear enough).
Look I’m with sinkhole here – Walky, what the hell is wrong with you? You’ve antagonisticly introduced everyone Booster has met so far. Mary is Mary so fine she brings it on herself, but everyone one else? What’s wrong with you?
What, Mike died and now you’re going to fill the position of “misanthropic asshole”?
Yeah, it’s neat. There’s a doubt in my head that goes something like “well, guessing that people are going to be unpleasant about someone not confirming to the idea of binary gender expression isn’t an outlandish bet”, but in all honesty having an accurate mental model of at least a portion of your audience is a skill worth praising.
They? *squeels* I was so hoping they were nonbinary when they appeared, and then I read that the person they were based on was trans female, and I thought that’s where this was going. So happy to see representation! I’m agenderflux myself, and just started using they them about a month ago.
I kind of see Joyce as someone in recovery and genuinely trying to get better. Yeah she is going to screw up…. A LOT, but she is trying, which is probably why most people in their group of friends have been trying to have patience with her.
Booster on the other hand didn’t sign up for this, so I won’t be surprised if Walky suddenly needs a new roommate.
Nah, Booster’s main cast now. They’re not going away. Besides, a couple people on the adjoining girl’s floor being a problem is about the best you can hope for.
Panel 4 suggests we may be seeing more of Booster’s negative sides. It’s easy to like a character (so far, I do like Booster) when you’ve only seen their positive behaviors.
Joyce misgendering Booster is completely forgivable. Even ignoring her probable ignorance on the subject, there’s also just the matter of statistics.
Joyce asking Walky to introduce Booster is …weird but an understandable cultural quirk. Walky is introducing people to Booster and Joyce is expecting him to return the favor.
Joyce pre-emptively asking for details from Walky while Booster is standing right there is totally rude.
As for Walky, yeah his introductions have been sort of rudely dismisive across the board, but I honestly expected nothing different. And they have been accurately informative.
There’s really no reason not to assume that happens between panels. It would be interminable if we had to watch Walky introduce them fifty thousand times.
I usually reserve judgment on a new character until I see that they’ve stuck around, or shown to be a new major character. But I now have an opinion on Booster.
I like him. That look of frustration, and pegging Joyce on sight is strangely endearing to me.
I’m actually not surprised. Walky is a perfect example of apathy/inattentiveness leading to perceived progressiveness. Either he hasn’t noticed or genuinely doesn’t care. I could see it coming up at some point and he just says, “Oh, yeah, I guess. But you said you’re Booster. So you’re Booster. That’s all.”
Walky only just recently discovered colorism, he may genuinely not realize that someone could be trans or that others might not be ok with trans people.
I’d assume Walky’s long been aware of colorism, just not how it applied to him and his family. Which isn’t really surprising – it’s a less obvious example than some and since he grew up with it, it’s just seems normal.
Question, do we know what Booster’s preferred pronouns are? Because my initial interpretation was that Booster is a trans man that left their previous dorm because their former roommate kept misgendering them as female. Just judging from the somewhat feminine facial features, but more androgynous/masculine haircut and clothes. Possibly also nonbinary.
I’m also wondering whether Booster is upset that Joyce is A: not actually addressing THEM with such an invasive question, B: upset that Joyce assumed they were male instead of possibly NB, or C: that Joyce assumed that they were wearing makeup/possibly not “passing” as male/NB after all? Or some combo of it all?
Holy Toledo, didn’t realize they had a cast page up already. That helps out immensely. I had actually assumed the opposite, that we’d see them come out as a trans woman and switch wings, leaving Walky again roommate-less and vulnerable to a stalking Lucy.
My question is whether any of the cast know what Booster’s preferred pronouns are.
As far as I can tell only Walky and Lucy know Booster’s name. Walky has been giving Booster a guided tour of the floor snarking about the residents as though they weren’t there, but he hasn’t introduced Booster to anyone.
As for pronouns, the characters don’t read the cast page, the Patreon feed, or the comment section. Booster told Walky about their resentment of their former roomies refusing to use their preferred name, but if they also mentioned being misgendered that was off page. As far as we can tell anyone including Walky who gets Booster’s pronouns right is reading a lot into a pink shirt and luscious lips.
By passing rudeness of the comment, “lady make up” is such an odd phrase, even if you have assumptions about who should and should not wear it. Particularly then, because your assumption would be wrapped up in the default that make up is for ladies and not need to clarify your position. It just feels awkward…like maybe she knows enough from her gender class she’s using it as a stumble to seek clarification that something IS different than what her defaults are? I dunno. My brain does not like it for more than the obvious.
No, she wasn’t. She believed that people like Dorothy, Sarah, and Roz (and me) deserved perpetual torture in the afterlife and are going to get it at the hands of a just God. And she was very forward in telling us about it. But she wanted to judge and correct our beliefs and morals, not exalt in schadenfreud. She considered that “good news” in quite a different way from Mary.
Wellp..this being University in the 20–‘s I’m sure Booster is going to remain dignified and calmly explain their circumstances in a reasonable way that is clear and not at all confrontational…
nah. Joyce will be in front of whichever Dean happens to handle disciplinary measures with a suspension for hate-speech by the end of the afternoon.
…. without unpacking all there is to unpack here, lemme just point out that Booster switched dorm rooms because of an unaccommodating roommate. In your interpretation of the universe, Booster wouldn’t have had to have done that, because the unaccommodating roommate would have been expelled and Booster would have had the dorm room all to themself.
Which is probably going to be what Booster’s thing here is going to be: Say they’re non-binary, they’re tired of dealing with ignorant crap, please look it up on your own time and don’t expect me to hold your hand through your Journey Of Personal Discovery because that shit got old eight round trips ago.
(If Disney weren’t actually paying attention to the series again, and therefore also trademark laws, I’d expect to see Venmo in Kingdom Hearts 3/4: New Page Cover.)
(… I love Kingdom Hearts but someone needs to take titling privileges away from Nomura and they needed to do so back when he proposed the mobile game.)
I mean, most folks are gonna be moving back into the same dorms they moved out of–they’re probably like me and left all their shit over winter break, and don’t have a pressing need to hang around the dorms before classes start.
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Wow, please introduce yourself and at least ask questions DIRECTLY to the subject of your inquiry
Even Becky knew to introduce herself (at high volume) as a lesbian
I wonder if the “what kind of name is THAT” question is next
(does Booster have a ko-fi? I’ll gladly chip in a ko-fi or thirty)
To be fair, Booster is a rejected Burger King kids club character name, so…
I bet Joyce would have been into the Burger King Kids club characters if she had been around then… She’d probaly be into the lore of it or somethin’
Burger King was too secular. She had to be into Chik-Fil-A Kids Club.
I’m sorry it doesn’t meet the vaulted highs of “plasticwrap”
Now there’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time. (Burger King Kid’s Club alum represent)
Booster’s name should just follow them around everywhere, hovering over a shoulder like some kind of familiar.
With an idiosyncratic font that expresses a basic impression of their personality!
Wheels, Lingo, Snaps; who am I forgetting?
Well, there’s Boomer, I.Q., and
CyclopsKid Vid.You rang?
Booster noping out of this situation in three… two… one…
Problem is, being offended about the wrong usage of your pronounc only works if any are used.
I generally try to avoid any myself
Often repeating a person’s name several times in a sentence on conversation, but I don’t use the wrong ones!
Well you could not use pronouns. Especially if the person doesn’t look cis. But probably the thing everyone’s objecting to so much is her being like “oh hey does your roommate who’s a guy know he’s wearing makeup that is only for women?” which is pretty obviously rude. Of course they realize what makeup they’re wearing. And at least some people would put two and two together and realize either Booster’s not a guy, or his makeup is not for women.
Sometimes protocol is that you shouldn’t address somebody directly until you’ve been introduced. Maybe that’s how Joyce was raised.
You mean like Walky and Booster haven’t been doing to everyone else?
Wally and Booster have been passing by
Joyce is indirectly confronting Booster
ouch that hurt
Booster hears: Hey Walky, who’s your friend? Is (ow) your new roommate? Does (ow) know that (Ow) looks like (OW)’s wearing lady makeup?
Yeah, this is like watching someone say “hi” by stepping on the other person’s foot a bunch of times.
hee hee hee hee hee
this is awkward laughter this situation is extremely uncomfortable
Sums it up.
….Wow. I don’t know how much more of Walky I can take right now. I applaud Sarah for cutting him off on her intro.
I mean, he’s not wrong!
But… he’s not done anything wrong here? He’s giving Booster (and new readers) an introduction to all the characters. And doing a fine job of it.
He’s also walking around and insulting people he sees.
I don’t get it. So someone please enlighten me cause I obviously have a bias.
Like to me he’s been introducing Booster to the characters in probably the shittiest way possible.
For instance Joyce here. Over the last ten years or three months the first semester of college she’s been through some shit. (A lot of which he was partially there for!) So much that it’s actually broken her faith. Calling that a “course correction” seems pretty shitty to me.
Who knows what he would’ve said about Sarah because she’s antisocial? Ugh! It’s kind of grating.
Walky doesn’t know (although he might guess) that she’s irreligious now. He’s describing her political shift. But for the record, when it comes to my deconversion, “course correction” wouldn’t bother me. “Broken my faith” does.
First: Sorry if I insulted your about with the “Broken faith” comment. I just couldn’t think of a better fitting term.
Second: How is Walky’s comment on Joyce’s political alignment anything more than an assumption based on what he thinks he knows about her? Have they ever talked politics. Has that ever even been brought up outside of Robin’s involvement in the story? This is what’s frustrating to me.
But again sorry. I’m not trying to rant here, but I am trying to apologize. If I insulted you or anyone. Sorry.
I mean, three months ago, she was hard conservative, to the point of dating a gay man in the hopes of turning him straight. Yes, these “horrible cliffnotes” versions of everyone are slightly insulting, but then hey, thaaaat’s Walky.
Also, Joyce proving his point within seconds kind of makes it hard to disagree with.
Not only that, but Walky’s quick, abrupt info gives context to the sudden horrible onslaught, so that hopefully Booster recognizes it as ignorance rather than prejudice.
She loudly and decisively made it clear in class she no longer stood by the right-wing, and her church’s, position on gay rights and treatment of gays in general. Walky was there for that. Walky and Joyce have spent a lot of time near each other, he is definitely in a good position to see how much she has changed.
But still likely doesn’t know she’s no longer religious herself. Or whatever we’re calling it, since she won’t use the atheist word.
If we’re gonna cut Joyce some slack for everything she’s gone through maybe we should cut Walky some slack for the fact that he’s clearly trying to distract himself from fixating on his dead roommate.
I don’t really get faulting Walky specifically for this. Pretty much every character in the comic is guilty of delivering lines with the sort of knowing, fourth-wall-bending snark employed in Walky’s here. It’s kind of built into the overall tone of the comic, at least when it’s not going out of its way to be as serious about something as it can.
^ This.
Also just to get the rest of this rant out. Saying Joyce was “practically another Mary” IS an insult. Maybe I’m wrong cause we’ll never truly know but I can’t imagine even a day one Joyce doing something so blatantly transphobic as escorting Carla to the boys dorm.
You can say Walky’s correct here, just being honest. But that’s often used as an excuse for being a dick. How would he feel if the first things someone told a new person meeting him was that he was a lazy bum, who would rather eat his tests than apply himself, and was a complete douche to his sister for most of their lives.
Joyce, Sal, and Billie have told him things like that! On numerous occasions! Hell, Joyce even described him like that to Lucy when she was clearly interested in him! I’ll grant for most of the hall it might’ve been a bit much, but I think with Joyce specifically you gotta remember this is just how that relationship is.
What’s his excuse for everyone else? Being antagonistic with Joyce doesn’t really justi-…… uh I’m just gonna stop actually. People don’t seem to mind it and I don’t enjoy potentially ruining the experience by being overly negative in the comments.
Such a joyless bunch in this and every other comment section.
Mike died and the comment section went downhill.
Coincidence? You decide.
I say this as a leftist, but taking things too seriously all the time has become a thing on the left. A lot of that is trauma from rightist trolling “its a joke” nonsense, but there are definitely a lot of people who regularly forget how to separate actual humor/audience-directed commentary/irony/sarcasm/deadpan/all of the above from real issues. I get some of it – lots of folks are depressed, and/or young, but humor is an important coping skill.
/soapbox
@Delavan, yup. On one hand, you can hardly blame them. May I present to you, exhibit A: the dumpster fire of events contained within the year 2020 (yes, I know it’s an easy, overused euphemism that doesn’t truly address the problem, but I’m not ready to go into detail), and the numerous events that lead up to them. It’s hard to lighten up, but on the other hand, well, what you said; coping mechanisms are a necessity.
I can’t upvote here, but this is something, I suppose.
Thats fair joyce even at her worst tired to be kind and understanding to others while mary was always mean and judgmental. To say she was a mary in any capacity was insulting
Ignorance looks like willful bigotry from the other side a lot of the time and often has the same results. I kinda get it, even if it’s harsh.
Joyce was Mary with a smile when she started. She didn’t mean to be awful but she said and believed some very awful things about people.
She may not have escorted Carla to the boys wing, but she happily tried to de-gay Ethan.
Hey you right! Joyce did participate in that and should be called out on it! I mean it’s not like Ethan initiated that relationship under false pretenses, taking advantage of her obvious naivety the day after she was nearly date raped *which he didn’t know about* But hey when she found out he was gay she didn’t break off the relationship with him!
That’s totally in the same league as being blatantly and unapologetically transphobic to Carla, blackmailing your clinically depressed R.A. and trying to deny said R.A. the help she needs just to cover your own ass which very much could have lead to that R.A. dying in near catatonic depression.
Joyce and Mary. Basically the same person six months ago. But I guess all of it’s open to interpretation. Everyone has their own metric on how they judge things. I can’t fault anyone for it. Joyce did do something objectively wrong. Fair enough.
Mary is condemning and vengeful.
Joyce was condemning and forgiving, and open to learning.
(Inserts failed Chess analogy; here).
No, not quite. Because when it all comes down to it, Joyce still was not only willing, but happy, and thrilled, to become best friends with Dorothy. Because even though she was the #1 thing her faith said was evil – essentially, denying the existence of God – she could see past those things and instead see the person behind it and love them for who they were.
There’s a difference between having the underlying worldview, and how it leads you to treat another person. Joyce regurgitated rhetoric given to her, but when she actually encountered people who represented these things, she always looked beyond the rhetoric and towards the person.
Therefore, she DIDN’T go try to convert Dorothy, or Agatha, or Walky, or anyone else. She defended her friendships to those who would attack them. When she found out Ethan’s orientation, he ALSO told her that’s what he wanted, and because she liked HIM as a person and didn’t yet have something to bash down the rhetoric, she went along with it.
At this point, and also earlier. If she found out about Carla, or Jocelyne? She’d see the person. She doesn’t have much of a relationship with Carla, but I see her responding in a similar way to Jocelyne as when Becky came out to her. Even Carla – back at Joyce’s worst, she’d NEVER go escort her to a boy’s dorm. Probably, she’d just smile, treat her like how she’d like to be treated, and at worst, just avoid pronoun usage.
And yes, there’s a huge difference between that and telling someone to go back to where they belong.
It took her some time and she had a few bad moments. Her initial reaction to finding out Dorothy was atheist was a complete system crash. She had that awful soul/flower petal rant after the sex tape incident. Probably some other things I’m forgetting.
Her initial reaction to Carla or Jocelyne is likely to be bad. She’s not going to just smile and accept. She’s going to freak out and say and do some painful things. Then she’ll learn and get better, because she fundamentally cares more about people than about her rules. But there’s still struggle.
Which we’re going to see a bit of here.
With Carla, she might even blurt out something like “why aren’t you in the boy’s wing?” What she won’t do is what Mary did – save it up and deliberately use it to hurt. Doesn’t mean it won’t hurt, of course.
She was, she LITERALLY DATED A GAY GUY ON PURPOSE KNOWINGLY. To make him seem straight.
No, she wasn’t like Mary, even at her worst, but she was pretty gross at the start.
We’ve never seen her react transphobicly, since she doesn’t know Carla’s trans – but we’ve seen initial reactions to other queer people, to atheists and to sex in general. She absolutely would have been blatantly transphobic if she’d learned about Carla early on. Even now it’s likely to be ugly.
The difference from Mary is that she’d just react (and then learn and grow) rather than saving it up and weaponizing it like Mary does.
This has derailed from what I’m even really pissed about. I’m not trying to defend Joyce. I’m just upset Walky would compare her to Mary. It’s a very mean spirited comparison to make ignoring any and all context or nuance to her as an individual. He’s kind of being a jerk. Joyce’s actions should be scrutinized, that’s not my problem at all here. Maybe it’s my fault for even bringing it up in the first place. I just don’t know why it’s okay for Walky or anyone to say stuff like this about people? But I guess it’s funny.
To be fair, I doubt Walky knows quite how awful Mary is. Most of her worst behavior is done in “private”, directly to the people she’s bullying. It’s unlikely Carla told anyone about the incident with Mary leading her to the boys’ dorms and knowledge of her blackmail of Ruth and Billy probably didn’t make it out of their floor. From his perspective she’s just a bitter, judgmental Jesus freak who happily tells people they’re condemned to hell. Her and proto-Joyce did, honestly, have a lot of the same core beliefs instilled in them by the church.
This.
He knows a bit more than that, since he saw Mary trying damage control cover up when it was revealed. Blackmail was brought up at the time.
I think in context, he’s comparing her beliefs, as he described Mary’s in the last strip, not her entire personality.
And for that, he’s not wrong.
Derailing is what the comments section is all about!
thejeff:: thank you for stating that. For me, that’s the difference.
At her core, I see Joyce as a good person who’s had bad training and toxic influences, but is still basically a good person who has the ability and willingness to change for the better.
Mary is someone who enjoys being “better” than everyone around her and uses her beliefs to bludgeon people over the head with her supposed moral superiority. She has no interest in learning or changing and doesn’t see herself as seeing any improvement because she’s already “purer” than everyone else.
It’s possible that she is capable of changing, but I haven’t seen it yet. I’ve just seen false piety, annoying holier-than-thouness, and maliciousness.
I agree with you about the Mary comment, that’s way out of line. Beyond that … you’re not wrong. Walky’s description of everyone else on the floor is a riduculously superficial bullet-point, possibly because that really is all he knows about them, on account of being a lazy bum, including in social situations. Booster themself seems to have picked this up very quickly and not taken Walky’s descriptions seriously, and few people seem to have actually been offended, either because they know Walky and know that’s what he’s like, or because his superficial grasp of them is exactly how they want people to see them (thinking specifically of Ruthless and Carla here). And apart from the Mary thing, his description of Joyce in particular reads as a coded (and recieved) warning to Booster about the impending panel 4.
That’s actually an interesting bit I didn’t pick up, if true.
For all the ire at the comparison to Mary, if Walky was deliberately intending to both warn Booster how Joyce was likely to react and tell them she could learn, it was very neatly done.
Joyce first responded to Becky coming out and getting kicked out of school by saying she was a good person who made a mistake, like Billie’s alcoholism.
Walky was also one of the kidnapped students.
He isn’t telling anybody Booster’s name.
He isn’t exampling the use of Booster’s preferred pronouns (though to be fair, it isn’t clear in strip that Booster has mentioned that yet).
And he is describing people in unflattering ways by addressing Booster as though they (them , not Booster) were not right there.
I now ship Booster and Joyce’s sister.
Also, I choose to believe Booster is Bishi Batman from Amber’s fantasies.
That makes as much sense as shipping Sarah and Walky
Jocelyn would learn a lot from Booster’s confidence.
So, as much sense as ships normally make.
I’m just remembering that one joke about Joyce seeing Jacob and immediately shipping him with Sarah.
Would that be nonbindromantic?
I understand the impulse to ship two of the only three (maybe four) canon trans characters in the strip, but maybe consider: trans people don’t have to only date other trans people
shoot, this should be “four (maybe five)”. I forgot about Zaph – I’m counting Carla, Jocelyne, Booster, and Zaph now, and Malaya as a maybe. We don’t quite know where she stands yet.
Yeah, maybe don’t ship them instantly. But I’m all in favor of their making friends. Yay for friendship and support systems!
Incidentally we don’t know that Booster’s trans, though.
They’re a they on the character page, but haven’t stated anything about their gender identity. Admittedly there’s an implied “ex-roomate didn’t respect it so it’s probably not cis”.
But Booster’s also allowed to wear ‘lady make-up’ and not be a lady!
I may be wrong but I believe being non-binary means that you are trans because your gender identity doesn’t align with your assigned gender at birth. That’s what my non-binary friends told me, anyway. So Booster, as someone whose pronouns are they/them, would be trans
Yes, I learned in a comment above that you are indeed right! My bad, I had introduced a distinction which apparently only existed in my head.
I thought non-binary also applies to a-gendered or multi gendered while trandgendered most often applies to those who identify with a gender that is opposite from the sexual organs they were born with? So… overlap exists via multi, fluid, other, opposite… but is a gendered considered trans if they dont identify with gender at all? are they synonyms? truely want to know as ive heard differences on that on my end.
What Seregiel says is very on point. There’s a lot of nonbinary people who feel that they are trans, and a lot of nonbinary people who think of nonbinary as being a subset of trans because it is revealing your identity as not being what you were assigned. I as a nonbinary person do not take this position.
My journey from my assigned gender to identifying as nonbinary was a mess, and one that I tried my best to understand in an organized way. But I have come to see gender AS nonbinary, not just for myself. Even if someone wants to identify as male or female, that does not have to mean the same thing for them as it does for everyone else. A male person does not have to wear certain clothes, do certain activities, like certain things, or be heterosexual. The same goes for female people. So even if you don’t identify as “nonbinary,” in my eyes, your gender identity fits into a non-binaric framework (one that has more than two and/or opposing options).
As for myself, I don’t see myself as having “transformed” or “transitioned” from my dead identity to my current one. I see the past as a formative part of what I am today. Having been raised in that assigned gender gave me perspective on how people are treated, how they are expected to behave. It helped me be a better non-binary person in the end.
Yeah, added complexity when you also have to sort through disagreement of culturally defined gender roles. Ive dont fit very well in a female gender role if looking at what is considered feminine or masculine to enjoy, but I don’t think those traits are what make anyone male or female. I don’t think I’ve ever felt “female” and have had Malaya type “I look down” moments, but I am also comfortable in my presentation, so I go with cis female. Im not sure gender is something I feel strongly as being comfortable in. Rather, I exist and how people interact with me is not disagreeable, therefore I haven’t felt the need to examine further (which is totally a priviledge). As Carla says, gender is totally made up but also real. It seems to be a feeling of your identity rather than an acceptance of a certain set of expectations should be applied to you. (beyond human decency… because…why do we do this to eachother again?.)
Don’t forget Alex!
(We know hardly anything about Zaph, either.)
Alex is trans: https://dumbingofage.tumblr.com/post/155637225372/im-just-going-to-go-ahead-and-assume-that-the-new
I ship Booster and Bishi Batman.
And Joyce’s sister and whoever the heck she wants to hook up with.
Psst! It’s Julian Bashir.
I guess this means Booster’s preferred pronouns are about to go from character page to in-comic canon.
I didn’t even *think* to check the character page for information about Booster.
I am too used to early-2000s webcomics where every character page is at least 4 years out of date.
Or always ‘coming soon’ :p
“When I feel like it.”
Author: “I’ll fill out the cast page when I have a solid grasp on all of the characters.”
Ha. When I do my web comic, on the character pages there will be a large number of unrelated inconsistent backstories which will change at random each day.
You know, right after I learn to draw.
You learn to draw *by* drawing a comic, not *before* drawing a comic. Xkcd is stick figures. You’re good enough. Go for it!
I didn’t either, until some other people made comments about it on a few recent strips.
It’d a part of the charm of every comic having it’s own site that was lost by Webtoons.
For the webcomics that’s lasted that long, yeah. Or having four characters out of the 12 that have been introduced.
i mean i would imagine it has to be addressed at some point
Pretty sure that point is right now, elsewise Joyce wouldn’t’ve said ‘he’ four times in a row.
there are character pages???? but the tags don’t go there.
Does the alt-text count as in-comic canon?
Didn’t they give them to Walky when introducing themselves?
Nope. “I just go by Booster. My previous roommate’s inability to adhere to that is why I have a new roommate.”
Joyce is the first person to use a pronoun for Booster on-panel.
I wonder how Joyce will respond to learning Booster is a they and not a he. She’s still adjusting to these foreign concepts but I wonder if this one will confuse her.
Ngl it confused me when I first learned about it, so I can’t say much there.
With how much these kids are on Twitter it would require some suspension of disbelief to say Joyce hasn’t been exposed to these concepts
I dunno, it’s interesting to note how Joyce would have been realistically exposed at the start of the comic to now.
Exposure to they/them pronouns on Twitter is one thing, and meeting a nonbinary person who asks you to use their pronouns face to face is another. I’m hoping she has at least some grasp of the concept, but it’s going to be an adjustment for Joyce either way.
My daughter’s spouse is a They. They are transitioning at this time. It does get a BIT hard to remember consistently.
Intellectually she should be there. She did take gender studies and pass it, so I’d guess that means she at least read and was tested about nonbinary people, and given her recent history I’m sure she’ll be accepting rather than judgemental.
So assuming she can reprogram the pronoun lobe of her brain, and doesn’t make any false assumptions or faux pas once being told Booster’s preferred pronouns, and doesn’t make things awkward, this should be fine.
…. crap.
TV just started acknowledging we exist, like, this year, I dunno if we’re in textbooks yet. I was plenty online as a kid and still had to find out about gay, bi, and trans folks on the street, and by “on the street” I mean “by literally meeting people who were those things, sometimes on streets but usually in classrooms.”
Textbooks, specially university textbooks, used to addapt faster the pop culture. Not sure if that still holds true, but you’d probably see non-binary talk in a textbook before you saw it on TV.
Their teacher was a lesbian. Im sure (very hopeful?) Leslie would add that discourse to the class whether it was in the books or not considering her own upbringing.
Reprogramming the pronoun lobe is hard. In adult second-language acquisition, pronouns and gendered words are very hard to get right if the new language doesn’t work the same as your first language.
(Source: My ex-wife got her PhD in second language small-word usage while we were together. Also, personal experience learning Spanish.)
One of my sisters-in-law has Balinese and Bahasa Indonesian as her first two languages, which have neither number nor gender (and much simpler tenses and moods than English). She has been living in Australia and speaking English for forty years, but she still gets pronoun genders and agreement of number between subject and verb wrong more often than not. It’s very hard to turn these things into habits.
Hell, I’m in my thirties and I only understand English, and using “they” as a singular pronoun still doesn’t sound grammatically correct to me. (Not that using it that way is wrong, because it’s not, it’s just my brain puts the “grammatical error” green squiggly line under it and I have to ‘right-click – ignore’ every time.)
I love that metaphor!
Ditto.
I’m stealing it.
Very true.
I have several trans friends. Most of them I met after they came out and thus have their pronouns organised correctly. However, one of them I met when they were still in the closet, and I knew them first as a Cis woman. Only recently did he come out as a trans man. As such, while I know that he should have male pronouns, I still sometimes slip up because I’m used to thinking of that person as a cis female and haven’t yet retrained my brain on that point.
Something similar happened with another cis female friend of mine who changed her name. It took a couple of years before my brain stopped using her old name even when I remembered to use her new one. For a long time, I had to remember that “A = B” until I finally started thinking “B”. Now, several more years later, thinking of her as “A” seems strange. It happens – it just takes a while to rewrite those neural pathways.
One friend came out over ten years ago, and while at the time it was strange thinking of “him” as a her, now it’s strange remembering the “him” version (although she speaks about it a lot at events as a trans author).
Another recently came out, and it’s only been a year to go from “ok, no longer ‘her'” to “oh yeah, I can’t believe he used to be she!”
So it gets easier!
(he was not actually a she, I’m just badly shortening the thought process here)
I’m putting all my money on *gets super embarrassed and makes things awkward by overcorrecting and trying too hard to apologize*
Just to be contrary, my bet is on Joyce, once being informed, trying VERY hard in a “When Speaking About Booster, a gendered pronoun comes out, but it’s 50/50 WHICH gendered pronoun comes out, and she corrects herself near-instantly.”
I once told my aunt that my partner used they pronouns, but I phrased it as “X goes by they instead of he or she,” which led to the sentence “Does They miss her parents? He’s moved very far away.”
(To clarify- this was in a conversation where we hadn’t been talking about my partner previously. She thought They was my partner’s name.)
I know it’s not LIKELY, and it wouldn’t be a good thing, but I wanna see another Joyce freakout face.
OOF.
Yeah, you might wanna open a ko-fi or something, kid, you’re gonna need it.
What is a ko-fi and who needs it/why do they need it?
A thing for sending people small amounts of money (or large amounts I assume, but the idea was that people could buy you a coffee if they like your post, that sort of thing)
And the implication as I see it is that Booster and other people directly affected by Joyce’s ignorance are not the ones who should be doing it as unpaid labour.
Yeah, pretty much.
*doing it = educating joyce
Cause of course, this is how children learn and grow, by being kept from this sort of information.
Ahhh, no, that was bitterness showing at how ungenerous we have become as college students. Professors should stop doing the group projects. Because students shouldn’t be helping each other learn. That’s the Prof’s job, they’re Paid to do it. We’re not paid.
We are not the 1st year class or 2020, we are each an island, entire unto itself.
Ko-fi, says Google, is a site where you can set up a contribution page to support you art. “Buy me a coffee” kind of thing. Why Booster needs it I don’t know.
As compensation for the Aggravation they’re about to endure.
Walky is offering to pay for Joyces education, apparently for the amusement value.
I dunno, his expression reads more apologetic than amused. Like, yeah, Booster just got misgendered mere seconds after complaining this person was likely to transphobe at them, they deserve some cash.
I think there’s a difference between ignorance and transphobia – but Joyce talking about somebody the way she did right in front of them was rather rude! (everything after “who’s your friend? Is he your new roommate?” – I’m giving her a pass on assuming his gender because the majority of people still expect people to fit a binary there, although obviously it’s not great)
Transphobia can be born of ignorance or thoughtlessness rather than malice, but it is still transphobia. That said, I don’t think Joyce is acting out of malice.
Her habit of talking about people in the third person while they’re right next to her is grating.I can’t remember specific instances, but I’ve got a feeling we’ve seen her do that a lot when meeting new faces.
“NO, I shall NOT talk to ANYONE until after we’ve been properly introduced, because that is what Jezebels do”.
Right now, this annoys me more that her assumption of a pronoun for Walky’s roommate who after all lives in the boy’s wing. Don’t just ignore someone who’s standing there.
And that make-up comment! For love’s sake I so want to slap her gently but firmly right now.
I think Becky has rubbed off on her, and she’s ignoring the barb of Walky’s introduction by type casting herself into it. She already wanted to know about Booster, and now she doesn’t have to be careful with how she goes about it because these people showed up to her door and were rude to her. Booster is unfortunate collateral, but I’d not feel the need to organize a respectful inquiry after any of that vomit in my literal doorway. I’d not make the makeup comment because I don’t view make up as gendered, but people assume genders all the time and that one is an understandable error. Particularly since Joyce thinks Walky should be female repellent. Rude? Yes. Still way more friendly in response than she would need to be in this situation? Also, yes.
The pronouns by themselves are an understandable mistake. Combined with the “lady make-up”, it’s a bit ugly.
Agreed. I’d even say “a bit” is very generous.
I hear a faint ticking…
Also, what is a venmo?
A way to send money to other people using your phone. Really easy way for college students to split food costs
Ah, I see.
It’s a digital wallet. It’s used for transferring money between bank accounts and such.
There’s also Zelle, which is basically the same thing.
And I got to find out about its existence when my BIL decided to send us money with it without checking to see if we had it first.
I’m honestly a little baffled by why Paypal isn’t good enough anymore.
my social group uses Cashapp because it gives you the option of having a Debit Card tied to your account issued. This is useful for, just as an example, basically firewalling your actual bank account because unlike my bank’s debit card or Paypal, attempts to withdraw more than is in the account are refused, rather than overdrafting.
PayPal isn’t social enough for some people. It doesn’t share how you spend your money with your friends. You can’t like someone’s panhandling attempts. etc. etc.
“PayPal isn’t excruciating enough” is a hell of a sales pitch.
for the BDSM crowd, they got PainPal
And why should my spending habits be anybody else’s business? Why should I care if So-and-So likes that Cheerleader tipped What’s-Her-Face $3.50?
I don’t know if social media is turning the world vapid and narcissistic, or if it’s just amplifying the vapid narcissists we already have by turning them into “influencers”.
That reminds me. I really need to finish the last third of Conspicuous Consumption by Thorstein Veblen.
More practically, if you link it to debit cards rather than credit you use it non-commercially without transaction fees.
Venmo is paypal (PayPal purchased them in 2013), but with more social media integration.
my bank has a Zelle button built into the app.
it’s pronoun time!!!
C’mon grab your friends
We’ll go to very distant thems
this made me laugh, thank you
+1
With Joyce the She/Her
And Booster the They/Them
Yes, all the characters we don’t care about are conveniently gone
Gone. Yes, they are gone. And their connecting rooms have nothing to do with this.
They’re definitely not fucking or watching a movie.
So does thinking of PayPal first make me old now?
I had no idea what Venmo was until AntJ explained it above.
And I use paypal all the time.
Nah, lots of people use PayPal.
Paypal owns Venmo, so not really.
Last panel hitting extremely close to home. Like laser targeted directly at my home.
On one hand I kind of want Walky to be like “This is my roommate, THEIR name is Booster” but a) Joyce should learn this directly (not necessarily from Booster, but I mean, not just by being corrected without explanation, or it won’t stick and b) Joyce might be like “you have other roommates?” or “why are you calling him ‘they?'” or something
I doubt Walky knows Booster is non-binary, he’s never been exactly quick on the uptake about this sort of subject in the past, and is kinda in a “minimal care zone” place right now.
Would work better, maybe, Walky innocently assuming that, getting corrected by Booster and treating it with a shrug, while Joyce gets all curious and inquisitive about it.
Presumably that was part of the intro that was off-screen. First off, because I do think the college would have/should have checked that Walky was okay with a NB roommate before swapping rooms, but also because Walky clearly recognizes the Joyce issue right away.
You have a much higher opinion of the administration of this university than I have.
When I started college in 2014, I had to go through many, many hoops to have my preferred name displayed *anywhere* in school software. Gender was binary on all school documentation and I couldn’t change it without legal documents. They absolutely would not have known to ask if my roommates were okay with my nonbinary-ness. I didn’t go to Indiana, but I imagine it’s not much better even now.
Wally has completed a semester of gender studies. Just saying.
counterpoint: so has joyce
… wait, shit. That means that Joyce and Walky will no longer be in Leslie’s class, having passed and moved on.
That kinda sucks.
Yeah, I somehow hadn’t even considered new classes as part of the new semester. Wonder what we’ll see?
I’ll definitely miss gender studies. Hope we still see Leslie fairly often.
As a becky mom, we better.
Going by Walky’s reaction in the last panel, I think Walky’s been informed, or at least knows enough to know this is going to be an awkward conversation.
Walky probably guessed from context clues.
Walky says things like “center left” and “socialist brown immigrants” now. Clearly something shifted during the timeskip that upgraded his mindfulness.
I’m sure spending more time with Sal had something to do with it.
I really dislike that your quoting of “Socialist brown immigrants” stuck out in my head as a crayon colour. Now I’m going to have to be careful not to repeat that out loud, out of context.
Walky knows, and Booster knows that Walky knows. Otherwise, what Booster said to Walky wouldn’t make much sense without that context.
this yes
I think it makes sense just because of Walky’s current “fucks no longer given” mood, and that he’s snarking about everyone being half-forced to contributed to Joyce’s growth.
Just figure that Willis would want to more explicitly establish the character as being non-binary in the text of the comic, and Walky making an innocent mistake is a good on-ramp for that sorta thing.
“Maybe you would like to meet my brother. He is a boy too!”
I mean she has multiple siblings, most of which are actually guys, so that isn’t technically incorrect.
I don’t think Joyce is really in the mood to introduce anyone to John, though, and it’s not clear anyone’s in contact with Jordan, so…
The dog does not count as a brother.
It’s her favorite brother.
As much as I understand their anger/annoyance at having to explain it again, I really hope they explain it to her gently. I dont want to see Joyce upset that she upset somebody.
Joyce doesn’t know what nonbinary means so it’s still her upbringing at fault. Though, she isn’t aware of Carla being trans and we don’t know what are Joyce’s ideas about trans people.
To be fair I know a lot of not far right people who dont know what nonbinary I’d my father’s pretty left wing but cant rap his head around nonbinary people getting him to accept trans people was hard enough.
I don’t think Joyce’s feelings are what’s most important here.
How dare a reader feel empathy for a main character, indeed! How dare a reader have their own feelings at all!
That’s reading a lot of accusation into what I said!
Oof, you’ve captured the Trans ExperienceTM quite well.
I’m kinda disappointed we don’t get to see Walky’s introduction for Sarah.
“That’s Sarah. She’s a tsundre future attorney.”
I read that as “a tsundere attorney from the future”.
An attorney from the tsundre future.
“I-It’s not like I’m a time-traveler or anything!”
I still use PayPal, don’t see how Venmo is any different
Venmo has this benefit over all the other services I’ve tried: it’s the only one that doesn’t use my deadname. That’s enough to make it my favorite.
Ooooh, that’s a real good benefit though. I wasn’t too keen on its interface when last I tried it to split pizza costs, but maybe I’ll put it back on my phone and give it another shot.
Another layer of “convenience” to add another layer of service charges.
It’s the “cloud service” tech bro way!
(Well, sometimes it’s data mining instead of service charges. Remember: if you’re not paying for a service, you’re the product. Not the customer.)
I think with Venmo it’s more the data mining – at least for noncommercial use.
Is that Joyce or a machine gun?
Oh, Joyce. I’d say never change, but I do want to see her grow as a person.
I think Joyce isn’t aware what nonbinary people means.
Having a learning experience is a great thing.
BEING a learning experience sucks.
I have a feeling that Agatha, Sierra, Mandy and Grace are all “in”, given how Walky phrased it.
But… would rather not be disturbed at the moment.
I would be pleasantly surprised to find out Agatha is a polyamorous lesbian, but as is I’m pretty sure Mandy, Grace, and Sierra are the only ones in that polycule atm.
…polyamorous wlw. Way to bi-erase, me, a bi person
Hey, it’s been a couple months, who knows?
Yyyup, Booster has got it figured out. Time for Joyce to have a “learning experience” to begin to understand trans and nonbinary people. Don’t worry Booster: you get to share this teaching job with Carla, Jocelyn, Malaya, and maybe Zaph.
Out of all of those, Carla’s got to be the only one who’s even remotely interested in teaching Joyce, and that’s mostly because she gets to talk about herself.
I wouldn’t be so sure–the one time we’ve seen her discussing trans stuff in-depth, when Malaya approached her about it, she seemed kinda put off until she clocked Malaya was also trans. She’s also avoided roller derby because she doesn’t want to deal with that sort of thing. Explaining her gender to a cis person seems fairly low on her list of priorities.
Are we sure that Malaya is actually trans? I read her “Sometimes I’m not even sure myself if I’m a woman” as possibly non-binary, possibly trans, and I was like “Interesting, see where Willis goes with this”.
But since you seem to be pretty sure, now I’m wondering if I missed a strip or a comment from Willis somewhere?
Being nonbinary is being trans. Any deviation from the gender you’re “supposed” to be based on what some doctor said when you were an infant makes you trans.
Like with any queer issue, you’ll see some deviation of opinion, but this is the position I (they/them) have marked out and I feel confident in saying I’m not alone on that.
(In any case, until Malaya figures out what her deal is, it felt like the safest, broadest label.)
Thank you for the vocab teaching!
I was until now under the impression that trans was, so to speak, extremely binary – as in “I’m not this gender I was assigned, so I’m that one”, which implies there’s only two options. The word is misleading then.
I hope this doesn’t come across as rude, I am very pleased that you have let yourself understand the word differently. However, I… don’t feel that the word is misleading? The moment I read the first line on the wikipedia page on transgender, I understood that it inlcuded nonbinary identities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
Oh, I see that it has since been rewritten to be even clearer on this subject. neat. The line I was reffering to is this: “Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their sex assigned at birth.” A good summation.
You’re certainly not coming across as rude! I’m sorry that I’m coming across as stupid 😉
I think my understanding of it came for one thing from my parsing of the etymology of the word. Trans- = through and out the other side, to my analytical brain at least, at first contact with the word. But that’s way back, and in the meantime I don’t think I’ve read recent definitions. I should have and that’s on me. My understanding of how the terms are used now come from real-life experiences.
For example I’ve met a few people who describe themselves as non-binary but don’t like to be called trans, I think that cemented the idea taht there was a difference for me.
Also during a volleyball competition there were those two trans ladies who were being dismissed as “not belonging in the women’s league, cause their unusual size and muscle strength gives them an unfair advantage”.
Which obviously is a very fraught issue, but in the subsequent discussion, these two players were very clear on the fact that they were women, and not just “not-men”. If that makes sense.
Then again those are all discussion that people were having in French (and in France), so there might be some discrepancies between the way the words are used here and in the States.
In short, I’m willing to take whatever definition trans people are giving and I’m sorry if my comment was insulting.
‘Beyond’ is actually a better glossing of trans- than ‘opposite’, since it does include the ‘opposite’ uses where it would be ‘beyond the midline between opposites’ (as in chemistry), or ‘beyond the divider also named in this word’ (most geographical uses); or merely ‘away from’, as it is in transgender (or transhuman, transform, transmit, and transport).
Thank you for the explenation. Your milage may wary, obviously, but I don’t personally think you were being insulting. Trying to self-improve is a *big* sign of a lack of malice.
I was replying mostly out of curiosity, and partially to remind people that wikipedia is a very useful resource.
I try to use it whenever I realize that I’m not one hundred percent certain what a word or concept means.
Oof, sports and who is and isn’t allowed to participate. God, what a well of bigotry. One I feel like I should talk about, but I don’t have the energy for that right now.
Have a good day!
I thought non binary also included a gendered, which isn’t necessarily trans as it is absence rather than other??? are these 100% synonyms? I asked that up top too but just going to go into the def train until I find a solid confirmation. ive read these entries too, but they seem to shift. and they’ve also shifted based on people I’ve talked too… which makes sense as label owning goes, but not for organizing my brain.
Labels are complicated ^^
Willis said on patreon that Booster is not our only non binary person in the main cast. I would assume Malaya is the other unless the other silhouette is not, in fact, Billie with a haircut, but a heretofore unknown person.
There’s also Sydney, who used they/them when talking in the third person, but I don’t they’d qualify as “main cast.”
They’re hardly a supporting character. They’ve appeared in, what, 3, 4 strips? Primarily being a pain in Galasso’s butt, rather than the core cast’s?
That should probably say ‘hardly even’…’hardly’ on its lonesome could mean that, or ‘they’re not that minor’… Stupid English and its weird ironic uses screwing up connotations.
It could be that having her intimate experiences discussed and letting down some of her barriers for somebody’s idle curiosity didn’t appeal, but that she was very willing to do so in a safe space to help somebody else with their own journey
Absolutely–I just also think that for Carla, Joyce would be very much in the “idle curiosity” category, unless there’s a huge plot twist coming.
I’m having a hard time imagining Jocelyn as “not even remotely interested in teaching Joyce” about their gender identity.
Though certainly “terrified that Joyce won’t want to learn.”
Yeah…once she’s convinced it’s safe to tell Joyce, she’ll certainly be overjoyed to be able to share with family…and properly braced for the incoming storm of questions, since she knows her little sister.
And ‘safe to tell Joyce’ likely also means ‘safe to tell Hank,’ because certain as I am Joyce would be supportive as soon as she understands, I’m not sure how long she’d be able to pull off knowingly using the wrong pronouns for Jocelyne until she’s ready to come out. She seems fine with lying by omission, certainly, but her poker face is not great and I think consistently trying to use ‘he’ pronouns around Hank while adjusting her paradigm would be… ripe for trouble. Though to me that’s just an argument for ‘Jocelyne doesn’t come out to Joyce before Hank any period where they’re going to be around either of their parents consistently.’
Well I’m still expecting Jocelyne comes out to the family in the midst of a heated argument, which will be awful, but also possibly good.
One word from Carol and Joyce will go from painful confusion to “I will fight for her!” and never look back.
And it was going so well…..
Booster’s face: “I do not want to deal with this now. Or ever.”
“I thought I left this shit back at the old dorm.”
First instance of Booster scowl face.
(Takes careful notes.)
As a nonbinary person, I empathize deeply with Booster’s expression in the last panel. Also, I’m stealing it as a reaction image.
“Does he hear what I’m saying about him right in front of his face?”
Uuuuugh. I hate it when people talk about me like I’m not right there in front of them. It’s even worse when they talk to me directly that way, like we’re talking about a third party who isn’t present. Throwing it right back at them (either talking about them like they’re not there or rebutting questions with “maybe we should ask him”) usually shuts that down and puts them on the back foot though.
Empathy. I have had to do this a lot with my parents, who have had a bad habit of asking questions they want me to answer, but talking about me in third person and speaking towards someone else.
Ugh, yeah. The most disarming tactic I’ve used is by simply replying “maybe [mom’s first name] should ask him.” That usually puts a stop to it for a while.
Wow, Booster became aware that they are in a story about Joyce being Willis’ autobiographical expy.
Booster: “Nope.”
I’ve been listening to a lot of Gayest Episode Ever, a podcast where queer people talk about episodes of non-queer sitcoms that have queer one-off characters, and so Booster clocking that they’re about to become a Very Special Episode delights me to no end.
‘clock’? Did you mean ‘grok’ perhaps?
Ooh! Weird slang synonyms that rhyme: “Grok” (from the Martian… er, Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land), meaning to fully understand and accept. “Clock” (from an unknown etymology, possibly slang related to either ‘clockwatching, recognizing a ‘face’, or military clock positioning ) meaning “to notice.”
I’m lowkey not a huge Joyce fan and panel is very validating for me. 🙂
I like Joyce but it’s always nice to see an acknowledgment that, if you’re not a member of the kyriarchy, she’d be extremely frustrating to know in real life, for reasons beyond her actual personality.
What’s “kyriarchy”? It looks like it’s derived from a Greek word for rule by lords.
Okay so you know how “patriarchy” is what we call the fact that the world’s run by men (and that’s bad)? The kyriarchy is, like, all of it–folks who’re male, white, Christian, straight, cis, perisex, allosexual, able-bodied, non-neurodivergant, the works.
…But Joyce is female, no longer Christian, and pretty much in denial about not being bi by this point. Does she really count or do you just have to have a few of those traits to count?
Joyce reenforces kyriarchal ideals in a lot of the stuff she’s said and believed over the past decade, is what I’m trying to say. Like, women can enforce patriarchy without being men–by promoting subservience, fighting reproductive rights, etc. It’s more describing a set of beliefs that keep the underclasses down, not necessarily the strict set of folks at the top.
……except she’s already had her religion more or less broken at this point, every authority figure she had has been torn down in her eyes, and you don’t deprogram someone over night.
That doesn’t make her not frustrating! People are entitled to feel some kind of way when even a well-meaning person bigots at them! Even if it’s by accident!
I’m with Wack’d. I am glad whenever I calmly, kindly explain why, say, the concept of ‘curing’ autism is repugnant to me and why I consider Autism Speaks a hate group and the person I’m explaining it to genuinely listens and learns.
I’m still damn tired of having to do so, because it’s about ten minutes of my life at best I could have spent doing other things if society weren’t so damn ableist to begin with, and I don’t know until after if I actually had any effect on them or if I should’ve just walked away. Even when it’s not done with malice, it’s an exhausting experience. And you have to be nice and polite, because if not there’s even odds at best the person you’re talking to gets defensive, and you’re SO TIRED of having this discussion and it’s genuinely hard to continue assuming ignorance when they express sympathy for the latest Caregiver Murdering Disabled Family Member, or ask why you can’t just use a reusable straw, or whatever the issue that prompted this is. And sometimes you feel like you’re being used as Great-Uncle Steve’s personal Google on the subject. And that’s just the comments you choose to step in on, because you will almost certainly experience enough on a regular basis you have to choose to ignore the ‘oh, but you don’t look X!’ or smile and shake your head at the cashier asking you to donate to the hate group because it’s ‘awareness month.’ (Almost inevitably, they did not choose this, they have no say in this, they do not deserve the rant you lock away in your heart.) It wears you down, it puts you in a bad mood (especially if they AREN’T getting it, but even if they do it’s another reminder that society as a whole makes no real effort to understand you that will probably linger,) and it’s an unspoken cost to being part of any kind of underrepresented population that we will have to do this over and over and over again. The statistics about sexual assault rates among my specific demographic live in my head in a way they never will for anyone I explain this to. (Or unemployment, or how it’s a little punch in the chest every time someone talks about virgins living in their parents’ house, or the knowledge of just how many celebrities have ‘questions’ about vaccines, or…)
The thing about microaggressions is that they accumulate in the person experiencing them, because it’s never just the one person making the most recent comment. Sure, after running into a hundred Joyces I’d be happy they all expressed willingness to learn, but I still spent a collective 16 hours and change having this same conversation a hundred times, and repeating these same points, and even after they walked away I was still exhausted and probably had whatever unpleasant topic I just had to bring up stuck in my head now.
Being a learning experience is terrible, and while I’m glad that it tends to be ignorance more often than malice, I damn well wish I didn’t need to plead my case for my ability to exist in society in the first place.
Thanks.
And I think that’s where you loose her as a potential ally, because she still needs time to learn things she never encountered before. Her lack of filter is actually one of the thing allowing her to learn.
Though I agree, it’s totally not fun to be part of her learning experience in moments like these, but, you know, I still think it makes her act like less of an asshole than Walky is right now.
Joyce was definitely indoctrinated into that, but the whole comic is basically about her breaking out of it, so while initial contact is likely to be frustrating, the payoff is likely to be worth it.
The most unrealistic thing about Joyce is how quickly she’s been able to drop so many toxic beliefs. At least in comic time.
I was going to say it was her chaos status… the sheer amount of drama that happened in 1 term… how does she not have a shrink yet? Is that one of the silhouettes? Does Dorothy, Amber, Ruth, Billie, and all these kiddos finally getting help earn us an intro to their therapist? They need one. And hugs.
Same. Being unwilfully ignorant doesn’t mean you have to be oblivious and disrespectful, which is something that always bothered me about Joyce.
Sombrero’s Law: Any sufficiently deep ignorance is indistinguishable from disrespect.
Good thing she’s back at school because it’s Learnin’ Time again!
I feel like I shouldn’t be laughing at how funny this is but also I’m nonbinary so I’m allowed lmao
oh jesus christ joyce no NO NO… I’m feeling Booster’s pain so hard right now. Is this…. enbpathy?
pffft
This is excellent, thanks for the laugh.
That last panel feels… Weird.
Shouldn’t ALL makeup be considered “Lady Makeup” as far as Joyce is concerned?
I don’t think she’s drawing a contrast between different kinds of makeup, I think she’s just emphasizing that makeup is for ladies.
Should it? I consider presidential fake tan to count as makeup.
Ah but that’s different, he’s wearing lady makeup alright, but since he’s a space lizard that doesn’t count.
That stuff may as well be Krylon 2x this past week. Maintaining a “healthy” orange glow will definitely distract from his gasping like a fish after climbing the same set of stairs multiple times on a battery of feel-good drugs for a photo op.
Are you Joyce?
What gave it away?
Maybe she means as opposed to stage makeup?
And clown makeup. (It may perhaps be debateable whether that counts as a subset of stage makeup, but in my opinion it doesn’t.)
I have been both Booster and Joyce, and I am feeling two types of cringe at once right now.
Now I feel for Booster.
Christ, Joyce. Just… christ.
Exactly.
Way to make it to someone’s shitlist fast, Joyce.
Speaking of the updated cast page… Mike’s not there anymore, and if you manually type in his page, you get this;
https://www.dumbingofage.com/cast/attachment/2014castmike/
Mike may have fallen, but he’ll live on in our hearts and moms forever.
(I bet we’ll still see Brain!Mike from time to time.)
Look out, Booster, you’re about to be caught in the Joyce Brown social positivity hurricane!
Seriously, I would have liked Booster to ask: “Do you expect any answers to those questions or are you just blurting out your entire free-associating chain of thought as soon as it passes through your brain?” Because I seriously think that is what Joyce does!
That would be in-character from what we’ve seen so far – when Walky was “I’m getting a new roommate cause mine fell off a building” Booster replied exactly with this kind of “I’m reacting not so much to the words but to the underlying assumptions and mechanisms”-attitude.
So yeah, they might say something along these lines, which would be good for Joyce but, alas, once more means that Booster has to do all the work.
aand Booster called it lol
when i was 5 i was watching marilyn manson being interviewed on tv or something like that but the idea of man with make up was so inconceivable to me i thought his face just looked like that. so fair enough i guess
*not implying booster is a man or that what joyce is saying is ok its pretty clear thats not the case
Aah, I thought you were saying “Joyce has the sort of interpersonal awareness one might expect from a 5 year old” and that worked…
that is what I was saying, i just wanted to clarify lol
As a nonbinary all the ‘he’s at the end which it seems Booster feels were unwelcome physically hurt
Christ on a Cross, Joyce. Not even open mouth insert foot, that’s the WHOLE LEG.
She’ll be an ouroboros of shame.
Not sure Joyce is oblivious in this case… Disrespectful, yes (though not on purpose, this is Joyce…), but being oblivious implies you know the situation and forgot about it…
One can argue she should have known, but in this case knowing requires having been educated on what neutral pronouns and trans people are, which I don’t think she was. Society is to blame here, not Joyce as an individual.
If I am wrong and her gender studies did cover these matters, then yes, you have all rights to blame her (and still blame society for not making this clear enough).
Look I’m with sinkhole here – Walky, what the hell is wrong with you? You’ve antagonisticly introduced everyone Booster has met so far. Mary is Mary so fine she brings it on herself, but everyone one else? What’s wrong with you?
What, Mike died and now you’re going to fill the position of “misanthropic asshole”?
Also, Walky, when you introduce Booster (or anyone) to other people tell them what their name is.
Joyce channeling a lot of commenters MONTHS before they wrote their comments is truly mind-bending stuff. Meet David M. Willis: Timelord.
Yeah, it’s neat. There’s a doubt in my head that goes something like “well, guessing that people are going to be unpleasant about someone not confirming to the idea of binary gender expression isn’t an outlandish bet”, but in all honesty having an accurate mental model of at least a portion of your audience is a skill worth praising.
They? *squeels* I was so hoping they were nonbinary when they appeared, and then I read that the person they were based on was trans female, and I thought that’s where this was going. So happy to see representation! I’m agenderflux myself, and just started using they them about a month ago.
Heeey, congrats! Always nice to see people find pronouns that fit them better.
“DON’T introduce me” is really all of the introduction to Sarah one needs, really.
JOYCE NO
I want this to lead to Joyce talking to her sister about Booster.
Hopefully Booster gathers from Walky’s introduction to Joyce that she isn’t educated on pronouns and genders (or lack-there-of).
Hopefully they don’t hold it against her too much.
I kind of see Joyce as someone in recovery and genuinely trying to get better. Yeah she is going to screw up…. A LOT, but she is trying, which is probably why most people in their group of friends have been trying to have patience with her.
Booster on the other hand didn’t sign up for this, so I won’t be surprised if Walky suddenly needs a new roommate.
Nah, Booster’s main cast now. They’re not going away. Besides, a couple people on the adjoining girl’s floor being a problem is about the best you can hope for.
Boosters face in the last panel. Priceless!
Oh yes, a learning experience indeed!
Oh Booster. As a nonbinary person I’ve felt the exact gross feeling they’ve got on their face here.
“Oh great. Gonna have to turn into a human Wikipedia article for this person.”
Joyce. No. NO. NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Panel 4 suggests we may be seeing more of Booster’s negative sides. It’s easy to like a character (so far, I do like Booster) when you’ve only seen their positive behaviors.
So, I’m sort of split here.
Joyce misgendering Booster is completely forgivable. Even ignoring her probable ignorance on the subject, there’s also just the matter of statistics.
Joyce asking Walky to introduce Booster is …weird but an understandable cultural quirk. Walky is introducing people to Booster and Joyce is expecting him to return the favor.
Joyce pre-emptively asking for details from Walky while Booster is standing right there is totally rude.
As for Walky, yeah his introductions have been sort of rudely dismisive across the board, but I honestly expected nothing different. And they have been accurately informative.
To be fair to Joyce, everyone in today’s strip is leaning on the fourth wall real hard; I don’t see why she should act any differently.
The problem with Walky’s “introductions” is that he hasn’t told anybody Booster’s name.
Walky’s not really introducing anybody, he’s giving Booster the nickel tour.
Sorry kid, the ink on your contract’s dry. Too late to back out now, you’re main cast this season so you’ve got to deal with the main protagonist.
There’s really no reason not to assume that happens between panels. It would be interminable if we had to watch Walky introduce them fifty thousand times.
I usually reserve judgment on a new character until I see that they’ve stuck around, or shown to be a new major character. But I now have an opinion on Booster.
I like him. That look of frustration, and pegging Joyce on sight is strangely endearing to me.
*Them
…And Joyce solves the mystery of why Booster’s lips are so luscious.
I just thought they were naturally that way! And that’s from experience!
They totally gave enby vibes from the word go though.
Me too, but I thought “Hey, why does Booster have super-awesome lips?” Even the women in this comic don’t have lips this wonderful.
The real swerve here would be if in tomorrow’s strip Joyce just takes the whole thing in stride, and doesn’t even go into panic-apology mode.
I’m kinda surprised that this wasn’t a “learning experience” for Walky, lol
I’m actually not surprised. Walky is a perfect example of apathy/inattentiveness leading to perceived progressiveness. Either he hasn’t noticed or genuinely doesn’t care. I could see it coming up at some point and he just says, “Oh, yeah, I guess. But you said you’re Booster. So you’re Booster. That’s all.”
Walky only just recently discovered colorism, he may genuinely not realize that someone could be trans or that others might not be ok with trans people.
I’d assume Walky’s long been aware of colorism, just not how it applied to him and his family. Which isn’t really surprising – it’s a less obvious example than some and since he grew up with it, it’s just seems normal.
Question, do we know what Booster’s preferred pronouns are? Because my initial interpretation was that Booster is a trans man that left their previous dorm because their former roommate kept misgendering them as female. Just judging from the somewhat feminine facial features, but more androgynous/masculine haircut and clothes. Possibly also nonbinary.
I’m also wondering whether Booster is upset that Joyce is A: not actually addressing THEM with such an invasive question, B: upset that Joyce assumed they were male instead of possibly NB, or C: that Joyce assumed that they were wearing makeup/possibly not “passing” as male/NB after all? Or some combo of it all?
The Cast Page says they/them.
I’d also assume that if they were trying to pass as a man, they wouldn’t be wearing the lipstick.
Holy Toledo, didn’t realize they had a cast page up already. That helps out immensely. I had actually assumed the opposite, that we’d see them come out as a trans woman and switch wings, leaving Walky again roommate-less and vulnerable to a stalking Lucy.
I think I read in the comments that word of willia is they are NB. Hopefully someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
My question is whether any of the cast know what Booster’s preferred pronouns are.
As far as I can tell only Walky and Lucy know Booster’s name. Walky has been giving Booster a guided tour of the floor snarking about the residents as though they weren’t there, but he hasn’t introduced Booster to anyone.
As for pronouns, the characters don’t read the cast page, the Patreon feed, or the comment section. Booster told Walky about their resentment of their former roomies refusing to use their preferred name, but if they also mentioned being misgendered that was off page. As far as we can tell anyone including Walky who gets Booster’s pronouns right is reading a lot into a pink shirt and luscious lips.
By passing rudeness of the comment, “lady make up” is such an odd phrase, even if you have assumptions about who should and should not wear it. Particularly then, because your assumption would be wrapped up in the default that make up is for ladies and not need to clarify your position. It just feels awkward…like maybe she knows enough from her gender class she’s using it as a stumble to seek clarification that something IS different than what her defaults are? I dunno. My brain does not like it for more than the obvious.
oops. sorry. didn’t mean to reply here. weird.
Perhaps they caught up offscreen?
I like how Sara is quick enough to catch on and cut Walky off before he mentions her.
Joyce was never, on her worst day, as mean-spirited as Mary.
No, she wasn’t. She believed that people like Dorothy, Sarah, and Roz (and me) deserved perpetual torture in the afterlife and are going to get it at the hands of a just God. And she was very forward in telling us about it. But she wanted to judge and correct our beliefs and morals, not exalt in schadenfreud. She considered that “good news” in quite a different way from Mary.
And – when confronted with the import of beliefs she had never examined, she changed her beliefs which Mary would never do.
Wellp..this being University in the 20–‘s I’m sure Booster is going to remain dignified and calmly explain their circumstances in a reasonable way that is clear and not at all confrontational…
nah. Joyce will be in front of whichever Dean happens to handle disciplinary measures with a suspension for hate-speech by the end of the afternoon.
Interesting world you live in.
Ignoring social commentary… A school administration with same day service!?! After what we’ve seen with RA management!?! *mind blown*
…. without unpacking all there is to unpack here, lemme just point out that Booster switched dorm rooms because of an unaccommodating roommate. In your interpretation of the universe, Booster wouldn’t have had to have done that, because the unaccommodating roommate would have been expelled and Booster would have had the dorm room all to themself.
God forbid institutions treat queer kids with dignity.
Their lives aren’t an after school special for straight people.
Which is probably going to be what Booster’s thing here is going to be: Say they’re non-binary, they’re tired of dealing with ignorant crap, please look it up on your own time and don’t expect me to hold your hand through your Journey Of Personal Discovery because that shit got old eight round trips ago.
I thought Venmo was a Kingdom Hearts character
Nah, Venmo’s a Pokemon.
(If Disney weren’t actually paying attention to the series again, and therefore also trademark laws, I’d expect to see Venmo in Kingdom Hearts 3/4: New Page Cover.)
(… I love Kingdom Hearts but someone needs to take titling privileges away from Nomura and they needed to do so back when he proposed the mobile game.)
Weird question, but should I be getting an Ominous Forshadowing feeling that so many people are out?
I mean, most folks are gonna be moving back into the same dorms they moved out of–they’re probably like me and left all their shit over winter break, and don’t have a pressing need to hang around the dorms before classes start.
Hahaha oh no