Cuz’ I’m not the biggest Joyce fan, but that sounds like a pleasant stroll through the park compared to… well, about half the dreams I wouldn’t call nightmares.
Premise: Dina and Becky on the kiss cam, but everybody just thinks some crazy girl kissed the air. Adorably confounded headline over image that obviously also includes Dina, but less than half the cast actually notices Dina is there.
Plot Twist: Dina isn’t actually being overlooked. She is actually part-invisible. Her and Dina go on a journey through time to save the dinosaurs and discover that her father is really…. JOHN CENA.
In the entirety of this comic very few people have acted sensible, and even then it’s pretty short lived until the plot takes them. It wouldn’t be very fun if nobody made mistakes, and everyone was nice to each other.
I’m pretty sure this is called the foot-in-the-door technique, right? Been a while since I covered it in Psych, but I dig it.
Joyce and Sarah are best sisters <3
It’s not an uncommon tactic in dealing with censors. If you start with something rather profane or obscene, you can whittle it down to appease them and get more than if you had just asked for that to begin with.
Similarly, “The Shape of Water” was pitched to be black and white, not because Del Toro actually wanted that, but so he could “compromise” on that detail while getting other demands met.
I remember my first time learning about this, with discussion of “The Beach” episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender. I can’t find an image of the “original” swimsuit outfits designed for the episode now, but they were pretty…damn. Pretty much no reason for them to be that sexy unless they were expecting to whittle it down.
I actually backfired on Stone/Parker once. When they were making the south park movie, they thought they’d run into problems with censorship at the MPAA. So, they deliberately added some rather crass humor/dialog that they thought would be objected to, that they could later cut out to make the movie they wanted.
But, the MPAA surprised them and accepted the scenes as-is. The result is that they made the movie dirtier than they actually wanted.
Nah, those shitehawks just do whatever they want, right out of the gate. They only backpedal and “compromise” after they’ve already done their damage. Even then, though, their backpedaling is done with the attitude of a petulant child, indignant that he can’t have six more cookies after he already ate fourteen of them. And then his “compromise” is to split those remaining six among himself and five of his friends, making sure to act as though he’s being extremely generous.
Sorry, I think I accidentally channelled Jim Sterling, for a moment.
Most of the time, when people say, “there ought to be a word for that,” usually the example provided is something that is clever but not particularly necessary.
This is a word that English speakers like myself have needed, but we never knew we needed it. Until now.
Incidentally, it would be more grammatically correct to say ‘I am in kalsarikänni’ or ‘I am kalsarikännissä’.
Or maybe not, since Finnish and English grammar don’t mesh well.
Then again, we did get you to refer to sauna by our word for it without it sounding that painful, so what do I know.
I don’t.
Mostly because it’s winter right now and it’s COLD. There has to be a word for that in Finnish too, right? Like “drinking alone in a multitude of clothing”?
The group walked out of the map store as Danny recounted his tale of the mysterious girl and his newfound abilities.
Walky: So, you can summon someone to fight for you?
Danny: I guess so
Walky: Doesn’t that essentially make you a stand user?
Danny thinks about this for a moment
Danny: I don’t know…
Dorothy: Wait does this mean that you can’t use the uke without summoning her anymore?
Danny: Aw crap.
Billie: Woo!
Danny: Anyway, where are we supposed to go.
Joyce: Through those woods over there apparently.
Joyce points to a dark wood right outside the village.
Walky: eugh
Billie: You said it Walky.
And so, our heroes step into the wood and continue their quest.
Walky: Hey I was just thinking.
Dorothy: About what?
Walky: Aren’t you and Danny way more powerful than anyone else here.
Dorothy: Nah!
Walky: Well I have a sword I don’t know how to use, Billie has a hammer, and Joyce has a larger sword she doesn’t know how to use. Meanwhile you have a book that can allow, you to summon fireballs and who knows what else, and Danny can summon fucking gods!
Danny: Avatars of one god.
Walky: Whatever.
Dorothy: Don’t worry, besides I have four spells. The Books is mostly blank.
Walky: Really?
Joyce: What are they?
Dorothy: Let’s see here…Ignitus Fireballus, Electra Nimbus, Tempus Medicus, and Aurum Clipium. (note: a prize for anyone who can guess what they all do)
Joyce: Wait I hear something.
Billie: Probably giant spiders…
Dorothy: yeah
Walky: yep
Danny: Hope not, but probably.
Joyce: Please anything else, please be anything else.
Suddenly a majestic centaur appears before them. With dark black fur and a womanly face on a masculine torso.
Joyce: Woo, not spiders!
Centaur: What brings you here strange ones?
Joyce: Who are you?
Centaur: I am the one who feeds on misery. Fire is my blood and tears are my drink.
Suddenly the centaur starts to sprout hairy legs out of its sides and grows fangs out of its mouth.
Creepy Ass Centaur: I am the agent of Solis. Formed from the mating of a spider and horse. I am Equus Aranea!
It is when there’s consent granted she pestered her to give it. But getting on the topic of who’s using and/or manipulating who can Sarah really complain?
Touche, Even so it’s not that much to get bent out of shape about, it’s not like she’s extorting someone for money or using someone’s self insecurities and resentment to mind mold them into being her boyfriend again.
So she played a small little trick, not like you, me, or anyone else hasn’t ever used deception before. No just goes to show there are no perfect saints amount us not even from the most sweetest child like Christian girl there is.
Something about this comment really bothers me :/ it’s like you’re trying to make bbcc look unreasonable for having feelings, or for pointing out a problem that’s not The Most Important Problem In The Universe.
It’s like… “There’s not *much* spam in it!”
Consent is important. Being less bad at it than a rapist doesn’t mean there’s no need to ever improve.
Sarah is a grown woman and can say no. Saying Joyce is somehow violating Sarah’s boundaries without consent here makes about as much sense as a salesman violating your boundaries by selling you on a product when you haven’t told him to go away. We’re free to like or dislike whatever suits us without justification. But to compare Joyce’s behavior here to boundary stomping seems senseless to me.
No, she *is* ignoring boundaries here. It’s subtle and it doesn’t have much of an effect here besides annoying Sarah a little, but it’s part of a pattern of behaviour that Joyce is eventually going to become aware of, and then cringe at how often she’s done things like this.
Joyce straight up admits in the last panel she was manipulating Sarah. That is not okay. She’s had a bad habit of ignoring boundaries, and her adding manipulative bullshit does not sit right with me.
I think it’s somewhat mitigated since she immediately fesses up to the manipulation, though. Were Sarah really being pushed out far of her comfort zone she could look coldly at her in response and chuck her out of the chair.
I’m less forgiving of manipulation when it’s done entirely covertly with the real intent to deceive. (Looks sideways at Mike’s plan to insert himself and wreck Ethan and Danny’s relationship.)
I agree it’s less awful, but it’s still annoying to me. It’s like an itch I can’t scratch – it’s frustrating and irritating and I want it to go away.
Yes, I know, character development. I’m sure it’ll happen. But until then, this is a thing that will annoy me and I will comment on it when a given strip includes it.
Humans are intrinsically manipulative. Manipulation is not coercion. Bargaining is not evil. College and life have continually crossed Joyce’s boundaries and pushed her far out of her comfort zone. This is a good thing.
Bargaining and persuading can be done honestly, by being upfront with your intentions. It is not the same thing as manipulating someone. And happenstance pushing you out of your comfort zone by chance is not equivalent to a human intentionally trying to worm around someone else’s boundaries because you won’t get the answer you want otherwise.
We “manipulate” people all the time. When we say please. When we intimidate them with a glare. When we mislead them for a joke or a surprise party. What we think of as manipulative is bad because it harms people, not because it gets the user what they want. Sarah is not suffering any harm from this and is fully capable of giving Joyce a straight statement if she really wants to be left alone. Being persistent might make a person annoying, but that is a subjective preference and has nothing to do with ignoring boundaries.
Things like saying please and glaring can technically be considered “manipulation”, but that’s not the sort of thing people mean when they complain about someone being “manipulative”, because those are overt forms of manipulation. People know you’re doing it to get them to do something.
It’s when there’s some level of deception involved that people consider manipulation less acceptable, if not upsetting / harmful, in many cases regardless of the person’s intent or the actual outcome, depending on the context.
Many people (including Sarah) would give Joyce a pass here, or do little more than roll their eyes in irritation, but that’s mostly because (1) she explained that she had done it, and (2) her goal was fairly innocuous.
But the tactic in question is dickish, especially between friends. Most people would prefer a direct question without any deceptive negotiation tricks, because that shit is exhausting when you know it’s happening and leads to a lopsided relationship when you don’t.
People don’t like being lied to, or to be forced to make decisions when relevant information has been withheld, or when someone is being deliberately misleading about what they want or how they feel. They don’t like people trying to use trickery to get the upper hand, especially not in their social lives.
And Joyce is fully capable of coming up to Sarah and saying ‘Hey, can I sit next to you?’ If Sarah says no, then tough shit. Go sit somewhere else and hang out with Sarah later. Do not try to trick your way around what Sarah wants. I don’t really care that her goal was innocent because the way she went about it was shitty.
And honestly? I don’t consider any of your examples manipulative. Manipulation involves deceit, mental or emotional games, or trickery to get your way, usually to get around someone not doing what you want. If you’re asking politely or intimidating them into doing something, generally the other person knows what you want. Also – intimidating someone usually crosses from manipulation into coercion, so that’s really not better.
As for surprises and/or jokes, you can usually be pretty sure your friend will be pleased by the outcome. If you’re playing a joke that they won’t find funny on them, then yes, you’re being an asshole.
Honestly, I wouldn’t be as annoyed with Joyce if she didn’t flat out state she was doing this to get around what Sarah wanted – privacy. Joyce asking for something weird first and moving on to more reasonable requests just because? Fine. Her being manipulative without knowing about it? Also fine. Her straight up saying, essentially, “I wanted to sit with you. I knew you’d say no. So I opened with something out there and moved down so that my real goal seems more reasonable”. How is that different from some creep doing something like this to get a date?
I agree that deception is exhausting, damaging to relationships and harmful. However, Joyce at no point lies to or otherwise deceives Sarah. All the things she asked of Sarah are things she wants, even if she doesn’t expect to get most of them. All I see is presentation and persuasion, i.e. getting people to agree to what they otherwise wouldn’t. Joyce was even kind enough to let Sarah understand the persuasion technique.
…What you said exactly but without being sarcastic?
Tricking people into agreeing things they otherwise wouldn’t is what I am annoyed by here.
This isn’t persuasion. Persuasion involves telling people what you want, honestly, and trying to convince them if they are unsure. Joyce straight up says she was using deception – she knew Sarah would say no if she asked to sit down straight away, so she asked more objectionable questions first to make it seem that something Sarah to do something she would not want to do. That’s not honesty, that is deception. Her telling Sarah exactly how she manipulated her is not a kindness. She even says she wasn’t really after the other two, she just wanted her goal to seem less objectionable. It’s another way to wear people down.
Again, how is this different from some creep using this to get a date, which most of us agree would be unethical?
Unreasonable? Oh no no not at all especially since I still agree with the point she’s making. All I’m doing is making a counter argument.
I know I was the one who brought up consent so I opened myself up for the rape comparison and I’m not trying to deny what either of you are saying. I’m just saying to me it felt like a small time offense was being treated like she committed one of worse crimes against humanity ever seen. Joyce is human she allowed to be at least a little devious and have one or two flaws, though I guess you can argue if those flaws go unchecked they can become to big a problem like someone shouldn’t get used to being deceptive or finding that lying to get your way is ok and we should call those things out when it seems it could do actual harm to others. But you can’t ever expect someone to not have any flaws in the first place can you ?
No one is perfect and we all know that very well but how well has that sunken in for us though ? We can’t expect each other to never get angry, lie, think violently or act for ourselves at least once in our entire time of living because assumingly we all have. Like can you actaully say you haven’t pulled a trick like Joyce had once or never will ? Because I can’t and neither will you. All we can do is try not to do it so often.
I think I understand your reaction to some extent though… Hate is a strong word, and you probably don’t like the thought of anything non-evil being hated, right?
I’m not entirely comfortable with it either, but today I had the capacity to sit with it and understand why bbcc feels that way. Unfortunately I don’t seem to have the capacity to explain it. 😛
This is not a first time thing for Joyce. She regularly ignores people’s boundaries and she really needs to knock it off. Especially if she’s going to start pulling manipulative crap.
It annoys the hell out of me when she does stuff like this, whether it’s small time or not.
If Joyce was some perfect princess she couldn’t grow into a better person. Character development is a thing, and this is a work of fiction. Sorry to say, but you’re probably gonna have to deal for like a year or two until she goes through that arc. Wanting someone to change doesn’t make it happen. Unless you’re Willis in disguise or something
I don’t think you point makes a lot of sense. Joyce is a shitty teenager just like everyone was/is a shitty teenager. People have flaws. I get it makes you upset, but you’re taking it a bit far.
My point is ‘ignoring people’s boundaries and manipulating people is bad’. Yes, Joyce is going to grow from it. That doesn’t make it not shitty NOW. And yes, until said character development happens I am going to comment on how it’s shitty she acts this way.
It’d be really great if every time I commented on Joyce doing shitty manipulative things, I didn’t get people going ‘but CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT’ or ‘why do you want Joyce to be perfect’ or ‘but she’s SO CUTE’ or ‘but she doesn’t MEAN harm’ – I know all that. I don’t care. This is a thing that is irritating me now and, yeah, it probably will until she develops.
Okay, that came out harsh, and for that I apologize. Allow me to clarify:
– I do not hate Joyce.
– I definitely don’t begrudge Willis writing this. This is not a complaint about writing quality. Like you said, flaws are a good thing. However, different people’s flaws get on different people’s nerves. Joyce’s boundary issues irritate me more every time they show up.
– I don’t think Joyce is some super skeev out to stamp on boundaries for fun. That said, none of this is okay and when she does get that arc where she learns to stop doing it, I’m going to be very very happy.
– I’m well aware it’s not just Joyce – Sarah’s plan with Jacob annoys me too. But that’s not what this strip involves so it’s not what I commented on.
– Yes, everybody can be an asshole. That doesn’t mean I have to like it when characters are being assholes. 😛 There can be reasonable explanations or excuses for some things, but in this scenario there is neither an excuse nor an explanation that garners enough sympathy from me that I’m not annoyed by it. Joyce just came up to Sarah and, rather than just ASK if she could sit down, she chose to start with something else because she knew Sarah would say no unless she bartered it down. Rather than respect that Sarah probably wouldn’t want to hang out or take the chance and ask, she took the manipulative route and I do not like that.
– Yes, I’m sure this’ll be addressed eventually. But it still annoys me right now while it happens.
Ignoring people’s boundaries is bad. Manipulating people is not necessarily bad. If it leads to treating people as objects, then it’s bad. But successful manipulation on more than a one-shot basis actually requires understanding them as people. There are only two ways to get people to act cooperatively, persuasion, which is to say manipulation, and force. I prefer manipulation from either direction.
I don’t agree that persuasion is the same thing as manipulation. You can persuade someone while honestly stating what you want from them. You can persuade people honestly. And regardless, Joyce manipulated Sarah to work around her boundaries, which is emphatically Not Okay with me without a very good reason. ‘I want to hang out with her and she’ll say no if I ask’ is not a good reason in my book.
Do people actually still use textbooks? When I was there it had gotten to the point that they were giving out lecture notes or you took down your own notes, and it was frowned upon to reference books rather than papers, so…
Of course, Sarah’s pre-law, so that might be different.
If a textbook costs $80 and contains about 500 sheets (1 ream) of paper, apparently you’ll only get ten calories from it. (We’re going to ignore the glue and ink in this thought experiment.) That might not even make up for the energy spent eating and digesting it.
Filet mignon is a better value than textbooks, nutrition-wise.
Universities still expect students to pay for textbooks. Evil teachers will give assignments from them. *Really* evil teachers choose textbooks that change those assignments every year so it’s harder to buy/sell used textbooks.
I did a lot of downloading in my last few semesters :p I dunno who scans and uploads entire textbooks but quite a few existed. 🙂 (I think one actually had a legal digital version but it cost the same as the paper one)
I remember last year one of my professors didn’t know people used textbooks they wrote until we told her. She said professors who do that should be drawn and quartered. She was so mad.
I had one history professor who sort of reluctantly assigned us to read a paper he’d written once. You could tell he was embarrassed about it, but he really was the expert on the VERY specific topic we were studying that week. He never assigned any other papers he’d written, and he made that paper available to us on the student portal website.
I can see using your own textbook in a class – If you don’t believe in your own textbook as an educational tool, then why should anyone else. – But in this day and age there’s no excuse for not making it electronically available. If anyone has the right to make fair educational use of the material, the teacher that wrote it certainly does. Profiteering off your students is a clear ethical violation of professional conduct and should be recognized as such.
In Ukraine we use textbooks our teachers have written and it makes perfect sense and isn’t evil…. because we have a LIBRARY where we can BORROW them for FREE, and if they run out of copies the teacher gives a free digital download. Which they have, because it’s their book. Which they want the students to use. Which makes sense.
Now, that one time, a teacher HADN’T written a textbook. What she had instead was lecture notes. Handwritten. FIFTY PAGES. And we were expected to COPY them, like, at a copy machine. Fifty pages. Each.
I had a professor who’d written updated chapters for a textbook that he used. He gave us ‘coupons’ to have those chapters printed for free from the nearby print shop. Another class, I thought I didn’t need to bother getting the textbook, but comprehension of the subject and grades both suffered.
And as someone who has graded, changing assignments isn’t about making it harder to buy/sell textbooks. It’s that some students cheat.
Our assignments typically added up to 10% of the grade, so cheating wasn’t an issue there. Cheating on assignments would just make you even less prepared for exams.
I suppose since they were worth so little I could have just skipped them… Heck, I probably did in some classes… But when I started, I had rather perfectionistic standards 🙂
I took part in a seminar once, with a bunch of assignments adding up to around 50% of your total grade, the other 50% being your end of term seminar paper. It was one of those lectures I participated enthusiastically in the course of the term, but because of the accumulation of exams towards the end of the semester, I ended up writing the paper in a rush, scoring a C (one of my worst papers, I usually worked best in a rush), but because of my class participation (which demanded constant work put into during the semester), I scored a B in the overall seminar, because, as the professor put it, my work throughout the semester had been excellent. I found that a rather nice way of grading (of course, if the paper had been a fail, the course would’ve been a fail too, as you needed a passing score with your paper). Still, much better grading system than it just relying on the score of your paper.
Depends on the course. My uni had 1-3 copies of most textbooks at the library, but if other students had already checked them all out you’d be SOL. I can’t remember it they were the correct version of the textbook either…
In our library, professors could accumulate books for their seminars or lectures specifically and one was only allowed to check them out over the weekend or use them in the library, which was nice. Also, you were allowed to copy the needed chapters, if necessary, which was still much cheaper than buying the book.
And some teachers provided scripts with the required reading material to buy (at an affordable price) or to print out from our lecture online platform.
My college had textbook rental. It was like a $20 fee added onto your semester tuition and you got all the books you needed, with the option of buying them at the end of the semester if you wanted to keep any.
Still, not that long ago Sarah was sitting forlorn in that very same chair, missing her Joyce, wondering if she would ever come back… wish granted, Sarah. Aren’t you happy?
It’s an abstract philosophical concept being used in a concrete immediate way which is a humorous juxtaposition. Dina could have said, ‘Even if you can’t see me, I’ll still be here,” but it wouldn’t have been funny and it wouldn’t have been Dina.
I’m assuming that little sisters find ways of annoying their older sisters in a manner not unlike little brothers find ways of annoying their older brothers?
Whenever I’m facing a hardship in life, I will remind myself that I am not in Joyce’s current situation, and everything will seem manageable by comparison.
January 15th this year, Joyce visited Perth, West Australia, dumped 140mm or 5.5 inches in us. Sure, THAT Joyce was an ex-tropical cyclone, but that’s beside the point…
True, but Sarah doesn’t have “boundaries”, she has a dark castle covered in poisonous spikes, surrounded with a crocodile moat and there is probably a baseball bat shaped dragon roaming the place somewhere.
My point is, Sarah is a vicious tsundere who Might want to hang out with people but is just too rough and annoyed to give it a chance. And in comes Joyce who is just too stubborn to take a tsun No for an answer.
If Sarah Really didn’t want Joyce around she’d pick her up and put her in a trash bin or something.
Joyce admits straight up in the last one she was trying to circumvent Sarah’s boundaries. And no, the fact Sarah has very strong ones is not a good reason to try to do that.
True, though like I said Sarah was not against Joyce sitting next to her. She was just grossed out by the requests. It’s more friends messing around than something serious to worry about.
Again though, Joyce admits she went for something bigger first because she figured Sarah wouldn’t say yes to that unless she bartered it down from something worse.
And you assume she was not just… say, joking? Or just messing with her? Friends Do tend to do that. You are making it out to be some kind of abuse instead of playful messing around it is.
Nowhere did I say it was abuse. I said manipulating people to get around their boundaries is bad. And yeah, I tend to take characters seriously when they outline exactly what they did. I don’t think Joyce has any bad intentions but what she did did annoy me.
I can respect that. To be fair though we might see it as a sign of progress. She actually Became Aware of people having boundaries instead of just bulldozing through them with her single-minded… Joyceness.
I think I liked it better when she didn’t seem to understand boundaries. It was still frustrating, but at least she didn’t know the other person might not want to do whatever. Now she sees boundaries and is trying to circumvent them. I don’t think she’s malicious and I’m sure she’ll develop out of it, but in the meantime, this is not a behaviour that I like seeing her exhibit.
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psst good magicians don’t reveal their tricks
So… Joyce is an evil magician?
Depends on what moral spectrum you’re judging from. =3 Attempted adultery fits.
Is she the Dark Magician Girl?
Well great, now I need somebody to draw that nightmare fuel.
How would one go about getting your nightmares?
Cuz’ I’m not the biggest Joyce fan, but that sounds like a pleasant stroll through the park compared to… well, about half the dreams I wouldn’t call nightmares.
Check out Apricot Cookies.
mmm those are almost as too sweet as my date cookies.
Or a bad one.
Chaotic neutral, more likely
The issue is not whether Joyce is good or bad. From a moralistic standpoint she is Good. The remaining question, then, is – is Joyce a magician?
I believe Joyce is a Good Non-magician.
No. An EVIL magician doesn’t leave anyone around to know that a trick was done;
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070115#.Wma8H0xFzmI
I’d say chaotic neutral. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/01-face-the-strange/helping/
Ah used the wrong danged email.
Cough cough cough Penn and teller
“ILLUSIONS”, Ana.
Psst, Sarah, there have been like zero successful instances in this comic of someone successfully sealing themselves off in those chairs
I’m sure it happens, we just don’t see it because ‘someone sits quietly and is never interrupted’ doesn’t sound that interesting.
Yeah those privacy chairs are not living up to their name very well so far.
Dina can probably make them work. Maybe Marcie as well.
Dina could be on the Jumbotron and no one would notice.
Premise: Dina and Becky on the kiss cam, but everybody just thinks some crazy girl kissed the air. Adorably confounded headline over image that obviously also includes Dina, but less than half the cast actually notices Dina is there.
Dina and Marcie on the kiss cam. The couple behind them also kiss.
Plot Twist: Dina isn’t actually being overlooked. She is actually part-invisible. Her and Dina go on a journey through time to save the dinosaurs and discover that her father is really…. JOHN CENA.
It explains everything.
In half a semester they’ve only failed twice.
Hey, if anyone’s gonna try regardless it’d be her.
If they’re supposed to be privacy chairs, then why are they in the LOBBY, Sarah
Well, obviously we haven’t seen the people who successfully hid in the chairs.
Aw 🙂
Seriously though, can Joyce go to the nurse already?
Just as soon as the comic changes its name to “Being Sensible of Age”.
ha!
In the entirety of this comic very few people have acted sensible, and even then it’s pretty short lived until the plot takes them. It wouldn’t be very fun if nobody made mistakes, and everyone was nice to each other.
I mean, I’m sure someone could write a good comic under those restrictions. But the resulting comic wouldn’t be Dumbing of Age.
Everyone could be as sensible as the heroes of a Hardy Boys style of juvenile fiction, and the title would become The Smarting of Youth.
That sounds painful…
There would be zero character development. Hell that’s basically a Chick Tract without the shitty morals
Letting her read over your shoulder isn’t helping.
I’m pretty sure this is called the foot-in-the-door technique, right? Been a while since I covered it in Psych, but I dig it.
Joyce and Sarah are best sisters <3
This is actually the door-in-the-face technique; foot-in-the-door is the opposite.
I’ve heard it both ways.
Not to be confused with the foot-in-the-face technique, which I think Amazi-Girl has used from time to time.
It can be surprisingly effective.
Foot-in-the-door is not going to be good for her toenail.
It’s not an uncommon tactic in dealing with censors. If you start with something rather profane or obscene, you can whittle it down to appease them and get more than if you had just asked for that to begin with.
Similarly, “The Shape of Water” was pitched to be black and white, not because Del Toro actually wanted that, but so he could “compromise” on that detail while getting other demands met.
I remember my first time learning about this, with discussion of “The Beach” episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender. I can’t find an image of the “original” swimsuit outfits designed for the episode now, but they were pretty…damn. Pretty much no reason for them to be that sexy unless they were expecting to whittle it down.
Google the Lake Titikaka song from Animaniacs. Even the WRITERS had no idea how that passed
Goodnight everybody.
I think Matt Stone and Trey Parker did that a lot with south park. Also a common tactic in negotiating your starting wage when looking for a job
I actually backfired on Stone/Parker once. When they were making the south park movie, they thought they’d run into problems with censorship at the MPAA. So, they deliberately added some rather crass humor/dialog that they thought would be objected to, that they could later cut out to make the movie they wanted.
But, the MPAA surprised them and accepted the scenes as-is. The result is that they made the movie dirtier than they actually wanted.
And there’s me, the gamer, who knows this technique as “EA bullshit”.
Nah, those shitehawks just do whatever they want, right out of the gate. They only backpedal and “compromise” after they’ve already done their damage. Even then, though, their backpedaling is done with the attitude of a petulant child, indignant that he can’t have six more cookies after he already ate fourteen of them. And then his “compromise” is to split those remaining six among himself and five of his friends, making sure to act as though he’s being extremely generous.
Sorry, I think I accidentally channelled Jim Sterling, for a moment.
Jim Sterling is an excellent person to channel on occasion. <3
…given the topic matter that was a little more innuendo-y than intended.
Chances are Joyce already read the books. More than once. 😛
Now will they also make a privacy cube?
Damn that was more manipulative than I expected from Joyce. Fortunately she’s using it for good for now.
“So now we are sitting next to each other, oh no my shoe is falling off.”
here is kitty’s finnish word of the day!
kalsarikännit (drinking alone in underwear)
you know, that thing everyone does
have a nice day!
Most of the time, when people say, “there ought to be a word for that,” usually the example provided is something that is clever but not particularly necessary.
This is a word that English speakers like myself have needed, but we never knew we needed it. Until now.
If water counts, then I am kalsarikännit right now.
Incidentally, it would be more grammatically correct to say ‘I am in kalsarikänni’ or ‘I am kalsarikännissä’.
Or maybe not, since Finnish and English grammar don’t mesh well.
Then again, we did get you to refer to sauna by our word for it without it sounding that painful, so what do I know.
I don’t.
Mostly because it’s winter right now and it’s COLD. There has to be a word for that in Finnish too, right? Like “drinking alone in a multitude of clothing”?
Meanwhile, in Finland …
Too cute. Gonna die.
Also apperantly i’m blowjob cat now. Neat.
Con…grats?
More like Con….cats! Who offer blowjobs. Get it? Cause he is one?
Where’d the B in your name go?
Obviously in nicknames of this sort it goes ‘designation’ ‘last initial.’ One can assume, with this knowledge, that the ‘B’ remains in his first name.
(The Cat part is like the Racoon part in Rocket Racoon. It merely means that he is a Racoon named Rocket, not that his last name is Racoon.)
Dungeons and Dumbing Part 4
The group walked out of the map store as Danny recounted his tale of the mysterious girl and his newfound abilities.
Walky: So, you can summon someone to fight for you?
Danny: I guess so
Walky: Doesn’t that essentially make you a stand user?
Danny thinks about this for a moment
Danny: I don’t know…
Dorothy: Wait does this mean that you can’t use the uke without summoning her anymore?
Danny: Aw crap.
Billie: Woo!
Danny: Anyway, where are we supposed to go.
Joyce: Through those woods over there apparently.
Joyce points to a dark wood right outside the village.
Walky: eugh
Billie: You said it Walky.
And so, our heroes step into the wood and continue their quest.
Walky: Hey I was just thinking.
Dorothy: About what?
Walky: Aren’t you and Danny way more powerful than anyone else here.
Dorothy: Nah!
Walky: Well I have a sword I don’t know how to use, Billie has a hammer, and Joyce has a larger sword she doesn’t know how to use. Meanwhile you have a book that can allow, you to summon fireballs and who knows what else, and Danny can summon fucking gods!
Danny: Avatars of one god.
Walky: Whatever.
Dorothy: Don’t worry, besides I have four spells. The Books is mostly blank.
Walky: Really?
Joyce: What are they?
Dorothy: Let’s see here…Ignitus Fireballus, Electra Nimbus, Tempus Medicus, and Aurum Clipium. (note: a prize for anyone who can guess what they all do)
Joyce: Wait I hear something.
Billie: Probably giant spiders…
Dorothy: yeah
Walky: yep
Danny: Hope not, but probably.
Joyce: Please anything else, please be anything else.
Suddenly a majestic centaur appears before them. With dark black fur and a womanly face on a masculine torso.
Joyce: Woo, not spiders!
Centaur: What brings you here strange ones?
Joyce: Who are you?
Centaur: I am the one who feeds on misery. Fire is my blood and tears are my drink.
Suddenly the centaur starts to sprout hairy legs out of its sides and grows fangs out of its mouth.
Creepy Ass Centaur: I am the agent of Solis. Formed from the mating of a spider and horse. I am Equus Aranea!
Joyce: Fudge me!
That was fun to read. Don’t suppose someone has link to parts 1-3?
Just got back a few pages, there has been one episode a day.
They’re on the previous few days’ strips (part 3 on yesterday’s, part two the day before, etc.)
*because of the Government shutdown, the Muzak is only playing actual elevator music till further notice*
Genuine Muzak, or generic stuff like the Disembodied Ethereal Chorus?
. . . Is that the Mii Maker theme? On endless loop?
How long is this elevator again?
About four to six feet, usually.
…or did you mean the height? Over six feet, but likely less than nine.
…of course you may have been inquiring about the shaft, but that seems rude to do in public.
*chanting* show the toe! show the toe!
I really hate this part of Joyce. Manipulation and boundary stomping isn’t okay.
It is when there’s consent granted she pestered her to give it. But getting on the topic of who’s using and/or manipulating who can Sarah really complain?
I can hate it when Sarah does it and hate it when Joyce does it.
And if you have to pester for it, it is not consensual.
Touche, Even so it’s not that much to get bent out of shape about, it’s not like she’s extorting someone for money or using someone’s self insecurities and resentment to mind mold them into being her boyfriend again.
So she played a small little trick, not like you, me, or anyone else hasn’t ever used deception before. No just goes to show there are no perfect saints amount us not even from the most sweetest child like Christian girl there is.
Something about this comment really bothers me :/ it’s like you’re trying to make bbcc look unreasonable for having feelings, or for pointing out a problem that’s not The Most Important Problem In The Universe.
It’s like… “There’s not *much* spam in it!”
Consent is important. Being less bad at it than a rapist doesn’t mean there’s no need to ever improve.
Sarah is a grown woman and can say no. Saying Joyce is somehow violating Sarah’s boundaries without consent here makes about as much sense as a salesman violating your boundaries by selling you on a product when you haven’t told him to go away. We’re free to like or dislike whatever suits us without justification. But to compare Joyce’s behavior here to boundary stomping seems senseless to me.
No, she *is* ignoring boundaries here. It’s subtle and it doesn’t have much of an effect here besides annoying Sarah a little, but it’s part of a pattern of behaviour that Joyce is eventually going to become aware of, and then cringe at how often she’s done things like this.
Joyce straight up admits in the last panel she was manipulating Sarah. That is not okay. She’s had a bad habit of ignoring boundaries, and her adding manipulative bullshit does not sit right with me.
I think it’s somewhat mitigated since she immediately fesses up to the manipulation, though. Were Sarah really being pushed out far of her comfort zone she could look coldly at her in response and chuck her out of the chair.
I’m less forgiving of manipulation when it’s done entirely covertly with the real intent to deceive. (Looks sideways at Mike’s plan to insert himself and wreck Ethan and Danny’s relationship.)
I agree it’s less awful, but it’s still annoying to me. It’s like an itch I can’t scratch – it’s frustrating and irritating and I want it to go away.
Yes, I know, character development. I’m sure it’ll happen. But until then, this is a thing that will annoy me and I will comment on it when a given strip includes it.
Humans are intrinsically manipulative. Manipulation is not coercion. Bargaining is not evil. College and life have continually crossed Joyce’s boundaries and pushed her far out of her comfort zone. This is a good thing.
Bargaining and persuading can be done honestly, by being upfront with your intentions. It is not the same thing as manipulating someone. And happenstance pushing you out of your comfort zone by chance is not equivalent to a human intentionally trying to worm around someone else’s boundaries because you won’t get the answer you want otherwise.
We “manipulate” people all the time. When we say please. When we intimidate them with a glare. When we mislead them for a joke or a surprise party. What we think of as manipulative is bad because it harms people, not because it gets the user what they want. Sarah is not suffering any harm from this and is fully capable of giving Joyce a straight statement if she really wants to be left alone. Being persistent might make a person annoying, but that is a subjective preference and has nothing to do with ignoring boundaries.
@Falcon:
Things like saying please and glaring can technically be considered “manipulation”, but that’s not the sort of thing people mean when they complain about someone being “manipulative”, because those are overt forms of manipulation. People know you’re doing it to get them to do something.
It’s when there’s some level of deception involved that people consider manipulation less acceptable, if not upsetting / harmful, in many cases regardless of the person’s intent or the actual outcome, depending on the context.
Many people (including Sarah) would give Joyce a pass here, or do little more than roll their eyes in irritation, but that’s mostly because (1) she explained that she had done it, and (2) her goal was fairly innocuous.
But the tactic in question is dickish, especially between friends. Most people would prefer a direct question without any deceptive negotiation tricks, because that shit is exhausting when you know it’s happening and leads to a lopsided relationship when you don’t.
People don’t like being lied to, or to be forced to make decisions when relevant information has been withheld, or when someone is being deliberately misleading about what they want or how they feel. They don’t like people trying to use trickery to get the upper hand, especially not in their social lives.
And Joyce is fully capable of coming up to Sarah and saying ‘Hey, can I sit next to you?’ If Sarah says no, then tough shit. Go sit somewhere else and hang out with Sarah later. Do not try to trick your way around what Sarah wants. I don’t really care that her goal was innocent because the way she went about it was shitty.
And honestly? I don’t consider any of your examples manipulative. Manipulation involves deceit, mental or emotional games, or trickery to get your way, usually to get around someone not doing what you want. If you’re asking politely or intimidating them into doing something, generally the other person knows what you want. Also – intimidating someone usually crosses from manipulation into coercion, so that’s really not better.
As for surprises and/or jokes, you can usually be pretty sure your friend will be pleased by the outcome. If you’re playing a joke that they won’t find funny on them, then yes, you’re being an asshole.
Honestly, I wouldn’t be as annoyed with Joyce if she didn’t flat out state she was doing this to get around what Sarah wanted – privacy. Joyce asking for something weird first and moving on to more reasonable requests just because? Fine. Her being manipulative without knowing about it? Also fine. Her straight up saying, essentially, “I wanted to sit with you. I knew you’d say no. So I opened with something out there and moved down so that my real goal seems more reasonable”. How is that different from some creep doing something like this to get a date?
I agree that deception is exhausting, damaging to relationships and harmful. However, Joyce at no point lies to or otherwise deceives Sarah. All the things she asked of Sarah are things she wants, even if she doesn’t expect to get most of them. All I see is presentation and persuasion, i.e. getting people to agree to what they otherwise wouldn’t. Joyce was even kind enough to let Sarah understand the persuasion technique.
…What you said exactly but without being sarcastic?
Tricking people into agreeing things they otherwise wouldn’t is what I am annoyed by here.
This isn’t persuasion. Persuasion involves telling people what you want, honestly, and trying to convince them if they are unsure. Joyce straight up says she was using deception – she knew Sarah would say no if she asked to sit down straight away, so she asked more objectionable questions first to make it seem that something Sarah to do something she would not want to do. That’s not honesty, that is deception. Her telling Sarah exactly how she manipulated her is not a kindness. She even says she wasn’t really after the other two, she just wanted her goal to seem less objectionable. It’s another way to wear people down.
Again, how is this different from some creep using this to get a date, which most of us agree would be unethical?
Youre really dedicated to only seeing what you want to see here :p
Well. So much for keeping my temper. Sorry.
Unreasonable? Oh no no not at all especially since I still agree with the point she’s making. All I’m doing is making a counter argument.
I know I was the one who brought up consent so I opened myself up for the rape comparison and I’m not trying to deny what either of you are saying. I’m just saying to me it felt like a small time offense was being treated like she committed one of worse crimes against humanity ever seen. Joyce is human she allowed to be at least a little devious and have one or two flaws, though I guess you can argue if those flaws go unchecked they can become to big a problem like someone shouldn’t get used to being deceptive or finding that lying to get your way is ok and we should call those things out when it seems it could do actual harm to others. But you can’t ever expect someone to not have any flaws in the first place can you ?
No one is perfect and we all know that very well but how well has that sunken in for us though ? We can’t expect each other to never get angry, lie, think violently or act for ourselves at least once in our entire time of living because assumingly we all have. Like can you actaully say you haven’t pulled a trick like Joyce had once or never will ? Because I can’t and neither will you. All we can do is try not to do it so often.
That’s all I’m saying. 😏
You’re saying it in a way that makes me feel icky.
I think I understand your reaction to some extent though… Hate is a strong word, and you probably don’t like the thought of anything non-evil being hated, right?
I’m not entirely comfortable with it either, but today I had the capacity to sit with it and understand why bbcc feels that way. Unfortunately I don’t seem to have the capacity to explain it. 😛
This is not a first time thing for Joyce. She regularly ignores people’s boundaries and she really needs to knock it off. Especially if she’s going to start pulling manipulative crap.
It annoys the hell out of me when she does stuff like this, whether it’s small time or not.
If Joyce was some perfect princess she couldn’t grow into a better person. Character development is a thing, and this is a work of fiction. Sorry to say, but you’re probably gonna have to deal for like a year or two until she goes through that arc. Wanting someone to change doesn’t make it happen. Unless you’re Willis in disguise or something
And the point goes ‘wheeeeeeee’ over your head.
I don’t think you point makes a lot of sense. Joyce is a shitty teenager just like everyone was/is a shitty teenager. People have flaws. I get it makes you upset, but you’re taking it a bit far.
My point is ‘ignoring people’s boundaries and manipulating people is bad’. Yes, Joyce is going to grow from it. That doesn’t make it not shitty NOW. And yes, until said character development happens I am going to comment on how it’s shitty she acts this way.
It’d be really great if every time I commented on Joyce doing shitty manipulative things, I didn’t get people going ‘but CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT’ or ‘why do you want Joyce to be perfect’ or ‘but she’s SO CUTE’ or ‘but she doesn’t MEAN harm’ – I know all that. I don’t care. This is a thing that is irritating me now and, yeah, it probably will until she develops.
Okay, that came out harsh, and for that I apologize. Allow me to clarify:
– I do not hate Joyce.
– I definitely don’t begrudge Willis writing this. This is not a complaint about writing quality. Like you said, flaws are a good thing. However, different people’s flaws get on different people’s nerves. Joyce’s boundary issues irritate me more every time they show up.
– I don’t think Joyce is some super skeev out to stamp on boundaries for fun. That said, none of this is okay and when she does get that arc where she learns to stop doing it, I’m going to be very very happy.
– I’m well aware it’s not just Joyce – Sarah’s plan with Jacob annoys me too. But that’s not what this strip involves so it’s not what I commented on.
– Yes, everybody can be an asshole. That doesn’t mean I have to like it when characters are being assholes. 😛 There can be reasonable explanations or excuses for some things, but in this scenario there is neither an excuse nor an explanation that garners enough sympathy from me that I’m not annoyed by it. Joyce just came up to Sarah and, rather than just ASK if she could sit down, she chose to start with something else because she knew Sarah would say no unless she bartered it down. Rather than respect that Sarah probably wouldn’t want to hang out or take the chance and ask, she took the manipulative route and I do not like that.
– Yes, I’m sure this’ll be addressed eventually. But it still annoys me right now while it happens.
Ignoring people’s boundaries is bad. Manipulating people is not necessarily bad. If it leads to treating people as objects, then it’s bad. But successful manipulation on more than a one-shot basis actually requires understanding them as people. There are only two ways to get people to act cooperatively, persuasion, which is to say manipulation, and force. I prefer manipulation from either direction.
I don’t agree that persuasion is the same thing as manipulation. You can persuade someone while honestly stating what you want from them. You can persuade people honestly. And regardless, Joyce manipulated Sarah to work around her boundaries, which is emphatically Not Okay with me without a very good reason. ‘I want to hang out with her and she’ll say no if I ask’ is not a good reason in my book.
Only two ways? You forgot the third option: not getting what you want.
I dont hate it, but I certainly cringe at it a lot. :/
The chair’s failure to do its job will one day come back to haunt it.
Adorbs reaching totes levels!
Joyce in the last panel has reached maximum adorableness.
True.. she looks like a child
Now, let’s not be hasty
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/makeover/
I mean, she’s adorable, sure, but is she more adorable than THIS adorable?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/gah/
Do people actually still use textbooks? When I was there it had gotten to the point that they were giving out lecture notes or you took down your own notes, and it was frowned upon to reference books rather than papers, so…
Of course, Sarah’s pre-law, so that might be different.
Oh yes. My students are assigned enough textbooks to eat them if need be. Depends on the level of the course, of course.
And having to live on a students budget they just might have to. Bound to be lower sodium than ramen at least.
If a textbook costs $80 and contains about 500 sheets (1 ream) of paper, apparently you’ll only get ten calories from it. (We’re going to ignore the glue and ink in this thought experiment.) That might not even make up for the energy spent eating and digesting it.
Filet mignon is a better value than textbooks, nutrition-wise.
Yup, people still use textbooks. Digital forms of the books are more common, but they’re not always available/not always the cheapest option.
Universities still expect students to pay for textbooks. Evil teachers will give assignments from them. *Really* evil teachers choose textbooks that change those assignments every year so it’s harder to buy/sell used textbooks.
I did a lot of downloading in my last few semesters :p I dunno who scans and uploads entire textbooks but quite a few existed. 🙂 (I think one actually had a legal digital version but it cost the same as the paper one)
Pure Satan teachers use textbooks they’ve written.
Yeah. And they don’t write well.
I remember last year one of my professors didn’t know people used textbooks they wrote until we told her. She said professors who do that should be drawn and quartered. She was so mad.
🙂
I had one history professor who sort of reluctantly assigned us to read a paper he’d written once. You could tell he was embarrassed about it, but he really was the expert on the VERY specific topic we were studying that week. He never assigned any other papers he’d written, and he made that paper available to us on the student portal website.
I can understand doing that, but my school does have a problem with the number of teachers who sell us books they wrote for class.
I can see using your own textbook in a class – If you don’t believe in your own textbook as an educational tool, then why should anyone else. – But in this day and age there’s no excuse for not making it electronically available. If anyone has the right to make fair educational use of the material, the teacher that wrote it certainly does. Profiteering off your students is a clear ethical violation of professional conduct and should be recognized as such.
That was what upset my professor – that people made their textbooks to us at a profit.
In Ukraine we use textbooks our teachers have written and it makes perfect sense and isn’t evil…. because we have a LIBRARY where we can BORROW them for FREE, and if they run out of copies the teacher gives a free digital download. Which they have, because it’s their book. Which they want the students to use. Which makes sense.
Now, that one time, a teacher HADN’T written a textbook. What she had instead was lecture notes. Handwritten. FIFTY PAGES. And we were expected to COPY them, like, at a copy machine. Fifty pages. Each.
Now THAT was pure evil.
I had a professor who’d written updated chapters for a textbook that he used. He gave us ‘coupons’ to have those chapters printed for free from the nearby print shop. Another class, I thought I didn’t need to bother getting the textbook, but comprehension of the subject and grades both suffered.
And as someone who has graded, changing assignments isn’t about making it harder to buy/sell textbooks. It’s that some students cheat.
Our assignments typically added up to 10% of the grade, so cheating wasn’t an issue there. Cheating on assignments would just make you even less prepared for exams.
I suppose since they were worth so little I could have just skipped them… Heck, I probably did in some classes… But when I started, I had rather perfectionistic standards 🙂
I took part in a seminar once, with a bunch of assignments adding up to around 50% of your total grade, the other 50% being your end of term seminar paper. It was one of those lectures I participated enthusiastically in the course of the term, but because of the accumulation of exams towards the end of the semester, I ended up writing the paper in a rush, scoring a C (one of my worst papers, I usually worked best in a rush), but because of my class participation (which demanded constant work put into during the semester), I scored a B in the overall seminar, because, as the professor put it, my work throughout the semester had been excellent. I found that a rather nice way of grading (of course, if the paper had been a fail, the course would’ve been a fail too, as you needed a passing score with your paper). Still, much better grading system than it just relying on the score of your paper.
I’ll do you one better. Teacher wrote the textbook. 20$ each. Pretty reasonable, right?
the workbook you have to turn in at the end of the semester, on the other hand…
Are there no libraries providing standard textbooks for the whole course?
Depends on the course. My uni had 1-3 copies of most textbooks at the library, but if other students had already checked them all out you’d be SOL. I can’t remember it they were the correct version of the textbook either…
1-3 omfg. I’m so proud of Ukraine right now (where there’s generally enough for the whole year they’re for)
In our library, professors could accumulate books for their seminars or lectures specifically and one was only allowed to check them out over the weekend or use them in the library, which was nice. Also, you were allowed to copy the needed chapters, if necessary, which was still much cheaper than buying the book.
And some teachers provided scripts with the required reading material to buy (at an affordable price) or to print out from our lecture online platform.
My college had textbook rental. It was like a $20 fee added onto your semester tuition and you got all the books you needed, with the option of buying them at the end of the semester if you wanted to keep any.
It was a pretty sweet set up.
Those chairs must be defect somehow
Still, not that long ago Sarah was sitting forlorn in that very same chair, missing her Joyce, wondering if she would ever come back… wish granted, Sarah. Aren’t you happy?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/suni/
I’ve been binge-reading the books, and just caught back up to that point. Today’s strip got a double-take.
Yes, and two strips after that, Dina gets one of the best lines ever in any comic anywhere: “Sarah, I have object permanence.”
I don’t even know why it’s such an awesome line – it just is.
It’s an abstract philosophical concept being used in a concrete immediate way which is a humorous juxtaposition. Dina could have said, ‘Even if you can’t see me, I’ll still be here,” but it wouldn’t have been funny and it wouldn’t have been Dina.
Re-establishing the big sister little sister dynamic.
I’m the youngest of three boys, but…
I’m assuming that little sisters find ways of annoying their older sisters in a manner not unlike little brothers find ways of annoying their older brothers?
Yes, except even more insidious.
Joyce learned a new move!
SNEAKY SNEK
Whenever I’m facing a hardship in life, I will remind myself that I am not in Joyce’s current situation, and everything will seem manageable by comparison.
Are Joyce’s toes ever touching ground whioe she’s leaning over the chair? The lengths she goes to to read from the book are pretty cute.
I AM NOW CAUGHT UP, I JUST SPENT THE LAST 3 DAYS READING THIS… I NEED MOARRRRRRRRRRR
At some point, Sarah needs to realise just how sweet it is that Joyce just wants to sit with her for a while.
Awwww, Joyce is learning.
That’s right, Sarah. Blame the textbooks rather than your own big-sisterly feelings towards Joyce. (Stay out of my stuff, brat!)
Oh no! She is Learning!
LOL scram Joyce…
January 15th this year, Joyce visited Perth, West Australia, dumped 140mm or 5.5 inches in us. Sure, THAT Joyce was an ex-tropical cyclone, but that’s beside the point…
That is the cutest ever. BroTP!
Funny how so many people are going “aaaw” at this, while I’m going “eeeew”.
Wearing down people’s boundaries is not ok. Go away, Joyce.
True, but Sarah doesn’t have “boundaries”, she has a dark castle covered in poisonous spikes, surrounded with a crocodile moat and there is probably a baseball bat shaped dragon roaming the place somewhere.
My point is, Sarah is a vicious tsundere who Might want to hang out with people but is just too rough and annoyed to give it a chance. And in comes Joyce who is just too stubborn to take a tsun No for an answer.
If Sarah Really didn’t want Joyce around she’d pick her up and put her in a trash bin or something.
Joyce admits straight up in the last one she was trying to circumvent Sarah’s boundaries. And no, the fact Sarah has very strong ones is not a good reason to try to do that.
True, though like I said Sarah was not against Joyce sitting next to her. She was just grossed out by the requests. It’s more friends messing around than something serious to worry about.
Again though, Joyce admits she went for something bigger first because she figured Sarah wouldn’t say yes to that unless she bartered it down from something worse.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
It is a bad thing! Manipulating people so you can circumvent their boundaries is a bad thing!
And you assume she was not just… say, joking? Or just messing with her? Friends Do tend to do that. You are making it out to be some kind of abuse instead of playful messing around it is.
Nowhere did I say it was abuse. I said manipulating people to get around their boundaries is bad. And yeah, I tend to take characters seriously when they outline exactly what they did. I don’t think Joyce has any bad intentions but what she did did annoy me.
I can respect that. To be fair though we might see it as a sign of progress. She actually Became Aware of people having boundaries instead of just bulldozing through them with her single-minded… Joyceness.
I think I liked it better when she didn’t seem to understand boundaries. It was still frustrating, but at least she didn’t know the other person might not want to do whatever. Now she sees boundaries and is trying to circumvent them. I don’t think she’s malicious and I’m sure she’ll develop out of it, but in the meantime, this is not a behaviour that I like seeing her exhibit.
True enough but like I said I see this more as messing around than something actively manipulative.
I think she didn’t mean any harm, but she definitely was being manipulative.
Also, let’s be Fair, Sarah did not say no to being sat next to.
I think it depends on the relationship between the two people. Joyce knows what Sarah is like.
“Oh yeah, I gotcha. Its like how I threaten to strangle you in the morning in order to be left alone.”
c-cute!!!
ABC, Joyce. ABC.
And this set of steak knives could be yours.
The last panel suggests “steak knives” is underasking.
And ABC = Always Be Chilling with your big sister.