Amber, man. Amber, man.
Doing whatever Amber can.
Spins about the Pokéstop
Throws a ball to make Sal drop.
Look out!
Where is that Amber, man?
Is she strong? Listen, Sal,
She’s in League of Legends, pal.
Can she cling to the roof?
Take a look, see the truth.
Hey, there,
There is that Amber, man.
I’m really starting to hate Amazi-Girl. LISTEN TO AMBER FOR ONCE, YOU STUPID JERK. She’s not afraid of Sal hurting her or Ethan. She’s afraid she’ll be triggered, lash out, and hurt SAL. And telling her not to be scared of Sal is not helpful. Fear rarely works that way.
My issue is that AG is clearly ignoring what Amber is saying she’s scared OF. “Sal won’t hurt you or Ethan.” – Great, but that means nothing when Amber’s afraid SHE is going to hurt SAL.
She is scared she will hurt Sal because she identifies Sal as a threat. It’s not like Amber goes around wanting to hurt everyone. AG is trying to convince her that Sal is no more of a threat than anyone else.
Amber is afraid of Sal because she was traumatized by losing her temper and stabbing her 5 years ago. Again, Amber’s temper and capacity for violence is one of Amber’s greatest fears. She needs to be told that just seeing her is not a guarantee she’ll stab her, not that Sal’s not a threat. That’s not what Amber is disputing here.
Yeah, I think AG is making it more and more clear that she doesn’t actually listen to Amber and just follows whatever idea of the scared girl at the corner store she’s got of Amber.
Which, that might just be a “golden alter” trait. Like, the sheer level of fucked up shit my “golden alter” did to my poor “anger alter” was nightmare inducing. Torture, violence, abuse, locking her up in cages and boxes so she “wouldn’t get out” and be heard. Made all the worst by my “anger alter” carrying a bit of a torch for my “golden alter”.
Which I guess, it’s hard to build yourself up as the embodiment of everything good without also tearing down another alter as therefore being the embodiment of everything bad.
Mentally. Basically extreme suppression of ability to participate with intense feelings of confinement and pain for the alter making them even more likely to rage because she was being mistreated. The “golden alter” tended to describe it like caging a wild animal, so all too willing to cede lots of power to the “golden alter” “in order to protect others from harm”.
That sounds pretty similar to how I “handled” my anger issues growing up, though I mostly just bottled or caged my rage beast to try and keep it from breaking free. Didn’t work that well, and it led to a lot of self-loathing because I couldn’t excise it permanently.
Eventually, I decided that if I wanted to be able to love myself, I had to love all parts of myself – including the parts I hated. I uncaged and embraced my monster, loved and accepted it as part of myself, and now I have a much better handle on it because I work to understand my feelings instead of hide them away.
Why should improving as a person NOT require trimming out negative traits? If you don’t, you get a personality crisis about which way you act is really your hands on the wheel and which way is of you is the side that panics and crashes the car. I understand specifically for this circumstance, supposing she does truly have a multiple personality disorder or whatever (schizophrenia?). But in general, people improve by managing unnecessary baggage and becoming at peace with stepping away from it — which is usually immediate and natural because who doesn’t want to improve? The only people I see struggling with improvement are those with addictions holding them down.
Okay, I’ll give in that self-loathing/depression make people feel unworthy of improvement. But that usually doesn’t involve shoving the bad stuff into a back pocket, usually that just involves stagnating and being hesitant.
There’s so much wrong here? What makes you so convinced that “trimming negative personality traits” (what?) isn’t just shoving bad stuff into a back pocket? Who has so much control over their personality that they can just shed traits at will?
Someone with a bad temper can learn to manage it but I’ve never heard anyone seriously suggest that they just cease having a bad temper by “trimming” it.
“What makes you so convinced that “trimming negative personality traits” (what?) isn’t just shoving bad stuff into a back pocket? Who has so much control over their personality that they can just shed traits at will?”
Can’t reply on that one apparently. If you’re not actually shoving stuff into the back pocket then it’s not a quick process where you “just shed traits at will”, but it’s entirely possible. Some degree of doing so is a pretty normal part of growing up. Most people just don’t have some kind of PTSD-induced split-personality disorder, though.
*whacked with the DSM for being another person who can’t be arsed to at least Google the difference between schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder*
Seriously, I don’t even know how that became a thing. That’s like confusing the common cold with cancer. Or on a less medically-related note, like confusing a sports car with a cardboard box lying on the side of the road.
In 1908, Eugen Bleuler introduced the term schizophrenia to represent a revised disease concept for Emil Kraepelin’s dementia praecox.[82] Whereas Kraepelin’s natural disease entity was anchored in the metaphor of progressive deterioration and mental weakness and defect, Bleuler offered a reinterpretation based on dissociation or “splitting’ (Spaltung) and widely broadened the inclusion criteria for the diagnosis. A review of the Index medicus from 1903 through 1978 showed a dramatic decline in the number of reports of multiple personality after the diagnosis of schizophrenia became popular, especially in the United States.[83] The rise of the broad diagnostic category of dementia praecox has also been posited in the disappearance of “hysteria” (the usual diagnostic designation for cases of multiple personalities) by 1910.[84] A number of factors helped create a large climate of skepticism and disbelief; paralleling the increased suspicion of DID was the decline of interest in dissociation as a laboratory and clinical phenomenon.[79]
Starting in about 1927, there was a large increase in the number of reported cases of schizophrenia, which was matched by an equally large decrease in the number of multiple personality reports.[79] With the rise of a uniquely American reframing of dementia praecox/schizophrenia as a functional disorder or “reaction” to psychobiological stressors—a theory first put forth by Adolf Meyer in 1906—many trauma-induced conditions associated with dissociation, including “shell shock” or “war neuroses” during World War I, were subsumed under these diagnoses.[82] It was argued in the 1980s that DID patients were often misdiagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia.[79]
In short, Dragon, it’s a decades-long misdiagnosis problem that persisted well into the latter half of the last century, and the cultural impact of that misdiagnosis still haunts the public understanding of the two disorders.
It also doesn’t help that a lot of media during that time upheld the improper understanding.
Well, it might be important for folks to cut out “negative traits”, but that’s not what I had. I had an alter, so trying to cut her out meant that she fought back for her life and I made things mentally worse for myself and that nearly ended up killing me.
Recommended protocol with DID is to pursue integration, which means giving every alter no matter how “negative” a voice at the table and care and empathy even if they have no real control over your responses. Because an alter is like a person, thinks it is like a person, so has human needs like the need to be heard, the need for life, and so on.
And so when you pursue integration and a caring approach to alters it means overall better health.
And for me that was critical, because my “anger alter” wasn’t what my “golden alter” sold her as. My “golden alter” sold her as a monster, too dangerous to be allowed to speak, something needing to be caged and destroyed and hurt.
But what she actually is is someone who cares deeply about justice and equality. She’s the part of me that’ll put myself into contortions and knots to support others who are being mistreated. She’s the part of me that fights for friends and fights for myself.
A lot of those traits a lot of folks on here perceive as positive, what has most driven how hard I’ve fought for the student who was assaulted and for students who’ve been bullied and harassed?
She’s the one who drives those. Trying to kill her was a mistake. And it very nearly was a fatal one.
Wow. Um. Cerberus, that… sounds familiar. My anger is out of its box and becoming quite helpful, but perfectionism/anxiety/NVoice is really hating on ADHD, except what it blames adhd for is sometimes actually an anxiety thing (and there are at least *two* separate aspects of anxiety too)…
thanks for the integration comment, I think that just made something click. it’s scary to even consider the possibility of integration with a part of yourself that’s hurling emotional abuse at other parts of you 24/7. I’ve been focused on setting boundaries instead – and I’m now remembering that I’ve been down this path before. When compassion feels unsafe, it’s been because of a lack of boundaries. Once my boundaries are strong enough to protect me, anger isn’t needed, and compassion becomes an option. The two are complementary skills. 🙂 I was doing the right thing all along… and knowing me, I’ll probably start on the compassion naturally when it’s time. 🙂
also – any reading suggestions? all I know about DID is what’s on the wikipedia page. I’m just going off general cbt/mindfulness stuff (or the weird variants that I came up with to work around my mental blocks) and RBN stuff.
aha, found the reading list below. 🙂 (for anyone else looking, it’s currently match #42 for “Cerberus” – I guess that’ll make it 43 – somewhere under #comment-1215649 )
How is “Laundry Girl” demeaning? It’s literally the only thing that she knows about Amber — the girl who dropped her laundry in the hallway, then freaked out and ran away.
You think a stranger would want to be reminded of the time they freaked out and ran away?
Laundry girl is a demeaning nick name, much like wonderbread is, I don’t know why Sal has a habit of giving people demeaning nick names but, to me, its a form of bullying
Wonderbread started off demeaning (when Danny came out of nowhere annoying Sal) but by now it’s fairly clearly affectionate and Danny has voiced no objection to it when he’s had ample opportunity to. Same thing for calling Joyce ‘kid’.
It has to be very extenuating circumstances for Danny to say anything negative to a girl (he’ll make someone a fine doormat one day) and Joyce would pretty much accept anything Sal gives her
“Oh Sal you’ve given me a decapitated kitten how lovely, can I brush your hair”
Even when Danny was at his doormat-iest, he had no problem telling a girl ‘hey, screw you!’ when he thought she was insulting him. That was Billie, right before he met Sal. And Joyce has definitely been squicked or shocked by things Sal’s done and has never had a hard time voicing when people she’s admired are upsetting her – see her parents insulting Dorothy, Dorothy ‘trying to change her’ during their marital set up, Toedad in general, etc. If she were really upset by Sal calling her kid, I’m fairly sure she’d at least say ‘Hey, uhh can you call me something else, please? Maybe you can come up with something while I brush your hair?”
Please point out that specific strip, because the most Danny has told Sal is ‘go jump some stairs’. He’s never objected to being called Wonderbread, as far as I remember.
No, he has not. I just ran through the archives through Sal and Danny’s interactions. He’s never told her anything of the sort.
Times She’s Called Him Wonderbread (To His Face) And His Reactions:
– First time, she also supplies her name. He says nothing regarding wonder bread and says he likes her name.
– Second time she’s coming up to ask for his DS cord, Danny happily greets her.
– Third time she’s waking up and remembering their math lesson, Danny’s just creeped out Joyce is invading his personal space.
– Fourth, she’s saying hi at the party and asking if a seat is taken, Danny just tells her it’s free for the moment.
– Fifth, she’s asking him about whether he’s dating AG, he simply confirms he is.
– Sixth, when she tells him to stop enabling AG, he just looks sad hearing how close AG came to biting it.
– Seventh, she’s about to ask if he’s talked to AG, he just asks what she’s doing there.
– Eighth, after he told her to go away after AG dumped him, he’s glaring possibly because she brings up him talking to AG (not knowing he just did and got dumped over it).
If it really annoyed him, I’d think he’d have said so after Sal pointed out how dangerous being AG was and that he was enabling her, because that day he actually WAS mad at Sal, but he’s never objected to the nickname at all, at least not where Sal could hear him. What you’re asserting is not a thing that has ever happened.
She likes Danny, and it’s pretty clear she means it affectionately.
Besides, we have not once seen him object to being called that. If he had, but Sal kept calling him that, I would agree with you. But Danny has given her no reason to think he minds at all.
Because it’s not a thing that’s happened, as a quick run through the sal+danny strips will attest. You’ve been asked for a link every time this argument comes up. Either supply one or knock it off.
Well that makes it all right to refer to amber as laundry girl then because as everyone knows laundry is just the coolest thing ever.
If you don’t know her name don’t call her anything, is it unreasonable for Sal to say something along the lines of “excuse me I’d like to talk to you” but nope she jumps in with laundry girl
Derogatory nick names is something thats always bugged me. I had a work colleague do it and wouldn’t stop until I dropped him witha shoulder block.
Growing up my father had plenty of nick names for me, the least worst being pickaninny so yeah i might be a little sensitive to nick names but what Sal does, to me, is a form of bullying
I think Sal is intending for it to be a term of endearment, but “teasing nicknames” are always a bit of a gamble that can lead to some epically hurt feelings if you misjudge. And intentions don’t cure that.
And as you note, a lot of folks have bad experiences with “teasing” nicknames that are actually intended as put-downs or slurs.
I was about to say “I don’t see how Laundry Girl could be a slur” but I can totally see how Laundry Girl could be a slur and now I’m very glad Amber isn’t Latina. Or French.
Amber better hope no one on campus is a secret recruiter for some shadowy government agency, Sooner or later she’ll pull a stunt like this, they’ll see it, and they’ll be trying to recruit her as the next government super assassin.
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Nope, it’s…wait, where is she? Check again next week on “The Hunt For Laundry Girl (And Bigfoot, Because Hell, It’s Easier To Find).”
*cue end credits with blurry photos and the x-files theme*
(yay for amazi-girl being positive reinforcement, even if it’s not very effective?)
I’ve decided that until I’m told otherwise, Ethan IS in the cube but he hasn’t noticed anything because he’s too busy arguing with some internet troll about transformers on his phone.
I’m not sure she had that conversation out loud. For one thing, Sal could also have heard it. I think it might be a creative representation of internal dialogue.
I gotta agree with both of these statements.
Amber is showing an unbelievable amount of physicality here for the semi-shut-in girl with a rather sedentary lifestyle she comes across as. For us in the audience we know about her alter’s activities but for Sal, and anyone else near enough to witness some of this, this is probably going to be a dead giveaway.
As for the chair, yeah that shouldn’t be able to stand up to that kind of abuse and still be able to be lifted into that position by anyone not on the WSM circuit. Judging by what we can reasonably presume of Amber’s height and mass (based on various factors I’m guessing 167cm and around 72kg) she should be ripping that chair apart in order to exert enough force to hold herself up there like that unless it has a fairly substantial bolted together steel frame inside, which in turn suggests it should weigh upwards of 200lbs. That she was able to move two of them into the proper position for the cube would then suggest her to be substantially stronger than one would expect which would itself be a potential giveaway of her alter too.
If she’s holding herself up by friction against vertical cloth, yes. But if there’s internal structure in the chair arm that she’s pushing against through whatever padding there is, it could require a lot less sideways force to keep her from falling.
I think Word of Willis says that physics takes a bit of a walkabout with a lot of Amber/AG’s stunts. See the car chase and her leaping onto a truck to escape Dorothy and Walky.
i mean i kind of figure that amber does a lot of physical exercise to keep those muscles on the side. it doesn’t do wonders for keeping her cover as a semi-sedentary nerd girl, but that’s what you have to do to keep up your superhero identity.
idk with this one i go with “if they can do it in movies it’s semi-plausible here dude to visual language requirements”
That’s because of “Speez Marines”…and the universal hate Matt Ward gets for Mary Sueing the shit out of the Ultramarines, while simultaneously making everyone else worse in the expanded lore.
A bunch of sweaty gamers bellowing at the top of their lungs and brandishing the orkiest random junk they had lying around tends to be interesting.
Sometimes it attracts the wrong kind of interest, though.
Oh, oh dear. The alters have gotten to the “Gollum and Smeagol” stage without “the precious” (unless Sal counts as “the precious” in such an allegory). Now I know that sounds like a joke, but I am being dead serious. AG is acting towards Amber more and more like how Gollum acted towards Smeagol. Withholding information, putting the blame on Amber, trying to act like the only person who really cares about her…it is just way too similar. And I may just be using the Gollum/Smeagol split because it was the first time I was exposed to anything resembling DID and it fits in with what little I know about DID.
…
Also, I would like to deeply apologize if I have offended anyone with DID with this comment. I admit to knowing very little about DID and probably not understanding it too a proper degree as a result. I have no intention of offending anyone with this comment and if I have said anything ignorant or hurtful please, please tell me. For other commenters’ sakes as well as my own.
Not a doctor or anything, but Amber’s thing pretty clearly isn’t DID for a lot of reasons. As both Amazi-Girl and Amber, she has access to all of her memories, episodic and procedural. Since they can talk to each other, which almost by definition means they’re not, well, dissociative.
Plus, narratively speaking, there’s Amber’s “two boxes” speech (and the fact that she’s wearing yellow and blue in both personas in that scene), the point of which is to show that no matter how she acts, Amber and Amazi-Girl are one and the same.
Anyway, I wouldn’t even say it’s necessarily pathological, just a way to cope that isn’t always healthy.
oh no, there’s no edit button so I can’t fix that grammar error up there! let my tale be a warning to all who don’t triple-check their posts. it is too late for me, friends; go not where I have been. farewell!
Untrue. You’re referring to a full split. Partially integrated folks with DID, as Amber likely has, can and do talk to each other and share memories and getting alters to do so is an important part of treating DID. Folks with DID have been talking about this for months in the comments.
If you think Amber has DID, you’re right. And if you think Amber/AG is a superhero dichotomy persona thing played for drama, I think you’re right too. At the least I feel like posters with DID have contributed too much for it to be completely off the table.
Like it’s not like with Ruth, where depression is so obviously there that it has to be canon whereas some people also interpret her as bipolar or with anti-social disorder, or how it took a long time to get a confirmation on where Dina was neurodivergent. Interpreting Amber in either way just leads to slightly different characters.
I’m just glad no one’s tried to do the whole “yeah, I’m just going to discount your lived experiences in favor of some half-remembered ideas about the DSM” (the guide that still currently lists asexuality as a disorder (Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder), mind you) yet.
That’s the one that tends to bother me the most.
Like, I’m a person who’s lived the vast majority of my life with DID in a relationship with another person with DID and spent a considerable amount of time talking with other DID folks and researching what was available about the condition. I’m pretty sure I know what I’m talking about.
But Cerb, the DSM is a magic book that is perfect (despite needing an update every few years), not a collection made by flawed folks that can have mistakes in it! Didn’t you know that? I mean it’s not like it’s probably a good idea to corroborate with things like the ICD or something like the MCMI for personality disorders (because the DSM’s research on it is godawful) and checking out any community that exists for people who have these disorders to avoid making a complete ass of yourself, right?
As we all know, books spring out of thin air, perfect gifts from the ether. Things like icky flaws and bias don’t interfere in them, especially things like the DSM.
Yeah, that’s absolutely fair and I was hesitant because I was worried saying that would come off as trying take away from you. I just think it’s also worth acknowledging that some people without that lived experience might not see it in Amber’s character and that interpreting her otherwise is fin, and that if you hadn’t kindly shared your life experiences with us it might not have been accepted here either.
I very well might have not chosen to share this stuff. I’ve actually been making a more concerted effort to talk about this stuff after closeting it a bit for awhile in fear of it being used to invalidate my ace and trans identities.
So yeah, that definitely could have turned out to be the case here, which would have sucked, because that would have been super erasing and awful for DID readers of whom there have been a fair few who’ve popped up here and there.
I don’t know if you need to hear this from me, but nothing about you can ever be invalidated by choosing to talk about one particular aspect. Everything that makes up you is important.
Thanks. It’s still scary and hard to talk about this stuff as part of me is scared that any reveal will be what just gets me dismissed as “that crazy girl” about my life experiences.
And I hate that I feel that way, because when I was young and thought that this was the only thing that marked me as the other, I had so much pride in this aspect of myself and was much more open about it in my daily life.
Honestly, eventually I should probably write a book with a DID major character, but I’m definitely scared of the additional discrimination that would stem from writing an ownvoices DID book and outing myself in that way under my actual name.
In my opinion as a professional writer* you should ensure that this character is as unique and groundbreaking as possible by
– Have their mental condition be the result of magic/sinister government experimentation.
– Give them superpowers.
– Make sure they die at the end.
*Note: Not a professional writer.
Realtalk though, I’d encourage you to try. Doing so could only enrich people’s lives and fight back against misconceptions and stereotypes. Plus writers go under pen names all the time.
When you say “could have turned out to be the case” are you saying I’m invalidating you? Am I being erasing and awful to DID readers?
I don’t know I just thought I was saying that it’s fine to interpret Amber in either direction because we’re likely not to get a concrete answer for a long time, if ever, and that some folks just don’t see DID in Amber’s character and as long as they aren’t like “no shut up you’re wrong” about it then there’s nothing wrong with that.
My response was more about what you said could have happened if I hadn’t spoken up and someone else hadn’t spoken up in my stead. As you note, that would have been a really natural interpretation pathway for folks to go down, because cultural understanding of DID is pretty awful.
Building off of what you said, not tearing it down.
Well, I mean, I do think Amber is being written to favour both interpretations (and indeed I think it’s due to your efforts that “Amber has DID” has become written with that in mind) now. I think at first it was definitely “AG as a metaphor for superhero drama”, and now it’s both. It’s like what I mentioned about how some folks interpret Ruth as bipolar or with ASPD or how it took forever for Dina being on the spectrum to become canon.
IDK I’m just puking words at this point. I just wanted to say that people aren’t wrong to interpret her as non-DID, and that you’re not wrong to interpret her as DID (and indeed I’m super happy for you whenever you write your long posts about positive DID representation because it’s like me and how I feel about Danny and Sayid), and I don’t want to take that away from you.
Thanks. I was actually really worried about trying to be as respectful as possible because, well…this is kind of hard to say but…about a week ago I mentioned that I was starting to have memory issues and getting confused, BBCC might remember that comment, and accidentally said some bi-erasure type remarks. My family, at least on my mother’s side as a history of Alzheimer’s, and at least two members from that side had early onset Alzheimer’s that started affecting them in their early thirties and I’m twenty-eight, so I was worried I might be showing signs of that. So I went to a doctor and got good news and bad news. Good news was that it wasn’t early onset Alzheimer’s. But the bad news was that, after a few tests, the doctor discovered that I’ve developed a case of hyperthyroidism, which messes with your metabolism, makes you feel alternately fatigued or energetic, and can cause confusion and a lack of focus. Then the bad news got worse, after another set of tests they found out the cause of the hyperthyroidism; a small cancerous tumor in my thyroid gland on the left side of my neck, that I hadn’t noticed before. So…now I’m going to be going in for surgery in July. I guess…what I’m trying to say, is that if the worst happens, I’m probably only going to be in here for a couple more months. I mean treated thyroid has a 95% five year survival rate, and a 70% ten year survival rate for men, but if the slimmest odds happen and I end up dead…well, I want to be as nice as I can, just in case. I don’t want anyone’s last memories of me to be angry or hateful ones.
Sorry to hear that, Rukduk. But don’t be too worried. Those odds are pretty darn good. And meanwhile, you should see a lot of improvement in your symptoms. The hyperthyroidism part, at least, is easily treatable these days.
Best of luck with your surgery and recovery. I hope you have excellent care in the horse-pistol.
I’m so glad it got detected and you’re getting it treated (fellow sufferer of thyroid malfunctions here and have been since I was 18). I’ll look for you in the comments so please keep posting updates as you get them. Hugs.
Yikes. My mom had hyperthyroidism before I was born, and the doctor who treated her was either incompetent or didn’t care, so after some radiotherapy she ended up with HYPOthyroidism. Don’t worry, though, she’s got medication for that and she’s basically fine now, as long as she remembers to refill the prescription.
(And I don’t mention remembering to fill the prescription because of Alzheimer’s or anything, I mention it because my family on my mom’s side — and myself — are notoriously bad at keeping schedules)
I guess making Amazi-Girl’s speech bubbles dark blue would blend in too well with the pitch black background. The eyes sorta help tell apart her from Amber.
I am also confused by this. I initially thought AG was panels 2 and 4, but in 1 she says she doesn’t want to hurt Sal, but it’s AG that hurts people, not Amber.
AG hurts bad people. Still remembers stabbing Sal right after the gas station store hold up during a complete nervous and mental breakdown, and is afraid that if she (Amber) is in control when they encounter Sal, she’ll end up doing something similar again.
According to their mythology, Amber’s the bad one. The one that hurts people. AG controls that and uses it to stop bad guys, but Amber’s the dangerous out of control one. It was Amber who stomped Blaine into the ground, for example.
This is largely bullshit of course, but they both buy into it.
The first thing I thought of was how bad I want a friend of mine to catch up who didn’t see proof of DID. The second was a frantic search for a comment by Cerberus. She must not be on yet because I didn’t find one, but I’m sincerely looking forward to it. If anybody can frame this comic, it’s her. Also literally frame it after having Willis sign it “You were right all along and here’s proof! Willis”
Add to that what little I do know about DID is that the criteria can differ substantially, and some areas (like a large part of Europe) don’t recognize or diagnose it, and view it as an “American Disease”, which is the passive-aggressive way off saying that Americans are so stressed and repressed by their culture that they make up conditions in order to get drugs and attention which I say is a very condescending (and unprofessional) attitude.
Yeah, I’m unaware of a single drug on the market that would actually do anything for DID. At best, you might get put on an anti-depressant/anti-anxiety for the other symptoms that tend to go with it, but those are hardly “big ticket” drug scores and are necessary for the depression and anxiety that frequently come hand-in-hand with the DID (especially if the DID stems from a traumatic life event).
But beyond that, no drug is going to make you anymore integrated or more civilly in communication with your other alters or help you build a safe environment for alters to express themselves without fear of harm. The only thing for that is therapy, time, or being a complete idiot of a child and integrating yourself on your own because you were scared that you would get locked up forever if you told anyone what was going on in your head and thus do a lot of harmful things that could have made things a million times worse before addressing and fixing them and only seek therapy years afterwards when things were more or less integrated and settled.
… not that I know anyone who did that or anything.
Admittedly, my knowledge on DID comes from you and a bit of reading on psychiatric disorders and their treatment, but I’ve found little to nothing regarding DID medication.
No medicine actually helps, it’s just that the European psychiatric community is very unwilling to acknowledge DID and think it’s over-stressed Americans trying to get attention by making themselves special. Which is victim blaming or at least damn close to it. I would also like to admit that most of what I know about DID initially came from Cerberus as well, and then I watched the movie “Split” and wanted to see how much was accurate about DID and how much (aside from the Beast’s superstrength, super strong skin, pain tolerance, and wall climbing abilities) was bullshit. Gotta admit, I’m really disappointed in the European psychiatric and psychological community after that. I mean when you have that many cases, and with a decent amount of evidence a large portion of the time, how can you deny something exists simply because it appears unique to one country?
And I have a strong eye roll for the “making themselves special” BS that seems to hit so many marginalized identity. Especially after seeing non-binary folks and ace folks get hit so regularly by that accusation as if anyone would sign up for marginalization and atypicality if they didn’t have to.
Like, you’d think the people saying this would stop for a second and go, oh, wait, these folks we think are making it up are suffering real consequences for their identity and have life experiences that would not occur without that identity. Maybe we’re being absolute assholes to folks with little to no social power.
We refuse to acknowledge this thing as real. Oh, hey, it’s only showing up officially in the countries that acknowledge this thing as real. Guess, that confirms we made the right choice. What’s that, person claiming this identity? No, that doesn’t sound like something that would happen here. You must be mistaken about your life experiences.
Something something ‘because you have to cause real consequences to make them stop their ‘delusions’ even though they harm nobody and are not dangerous to themselves or others, yadda yadda’.
So what happens to people with DID who move to a county outside the US? It’s a scary thought.
Oh and Cerb? I put off getting treatment for years too for my depression and suicidal ideation for the same reason. I figured they would throw me in the nut house and never let me out. Then I went for treatment and the med they gave me calmed down my depression, but it made the suicidal ideation worse. I hid the suicidal thoughts from my doctor because I didn’t want to go in a nut house… until I tried to OD and then the cat was kinda out of the bag and I was put in the WORST psychiatric hospital due to me being broke with no insurance. That was 3 days of hell. When I got out, instead of being supportive my dad told me if I fucked up like that again I would be committed (and that he had talked to a lawyer and he could have me locked up for good) and my SO at the time said if I got so much as depressed again he would leave me. Fast forward several years, I get off meds because he wants kids, I’d been off them months (and having a hard time with my depression but lying to doc again) when SO admitted that he only agreed because he thought I was sterile and he wanted the bigger house (3 bedroom really nice trailer that was 3x the price of a small no frills one), I called for help because I was barely stopping myself and knew I wouldn’t last long, I got help (from a place that was better than the first but extremely heavy handed with religion), and he took my house because he said he warned me. I still wish I had gotten help sooner, but I think that’s what everybody says after the fact.
*hugs for you* and *angry deathglowers for your former partner*
And yeah, that fear of that cultural idea of “being locked up in the crazy house” is a really really poisonous part of our culture. And as you note, everyone who waits in fear of that, often ends up wishing they hadn’t.
I was able to more or less sort things out on my own, but it would have been so much easier with a trained and empathetic professional and might have helped me figure out my trans and ace stuff sooner as well.
I’ve been starting work on a tv show meant to be educational (and hopefully entertaining) regarding how psychiatric facilities actually work, and holy christ the tropes are awful. Put it this way – “Damn you, Kesey” is a running gag in the show for a reason.
Yup! One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest was single-handedly responsible for me dodging therapy for nearly a decade. Like I get what it was protesting and why it was written, but it really fucked me up for the worst.
That’s exactly why Kesey was chosen for the running gaga. It was an important story at the time it was written and it’s still well written (ish) but it also codified a lot of harmful tropes in fiction and it still gets taught without putting it in historical context so it seems like current fact (or it gets taught with examples from modern abusive facilities without going into the good ones). I feel like, while it was important at the time, in the long run it’s done far more harm than good and it’s outstayed its welcome in the ‘literary must reads’ division.
Pure speculation here – I wonder whether anyone has noticed any effects from antihistamines and/or Dramamine. If any, they’d be subtle, perhaps being a bit less likely to switch out of whatever alter was online.
I’m wondering because of a long flimsy chain of association, including a tenuous link between motion sickness and disorientation, and another tenuous link between disorientation and perceptual distortion, and a wild speculation about DID possibly involving some of the same mechanisms that sometimes cause perceptual distortion.
no (and never tried dramamine), but anxiety can certainly make me dizzy and nauseous whenever it doesn’t get its way, and make it really hard to process sensory input. :/ I suspect countering that might have something to do with my chronic pain issues…
I’m aware of that, but memory gaps also depends on the level of integration. The DSM is also flawed in many ways thus the reason a lot of therapists I know use it more as a guidebook than definitive ruling, with two I know using it just for insurance purposes. Mental illness is very nuanced which explains how 3 therapists can give the same pt 3 different dx. While I was in abnormal psychology in my 3rd year, I seen case studies given as many as 5 different dx, but never less than 2 with plenty of evidence to support your side and discredit the other and this was just words on paper! When I had to drop out (Hemiplegic Migraines) and later had to go to therapy myself, I got to experience the disagreement first hand. I went to several over the years. All said depression, but the first (doctorate) thought I has Asperger’s with OCD trait and PTSD, the second (masters) borderline personality disorder and panic attacks, the third (associate) that I seen for a month as I waited on a doctor to replace mine who had moved said bipolar (later I found it was just to put something on my record *eyeroll* ), and the fourth (doctorate) said OCD with panic attacks and anxiety issues. Out of all of them, the dx of MDD with OCD, PTSD (which is much milder than it use to be), and panic attacks feels the most correct, so I’m glad to finally get there, but it still was a convoluted mess to get to DSM wise.
Finally, we have someone who is a frequent commenter here who has openly admitted to having DID. Her diagnosis is also solid like my MDD diagnosis so there’s no chance of misdiagnosis. Since Cerberus has first hand experience with it, I think differing to her on the subject is best unless and until we have a doctor come in who has worked with multiple clients with DID.
And yeah, the field on DID is a bit of a mess. A lot of doctors who study it only want to study the “sexy” cases of full disassociation resulting from childhood trauma and so there’s a complete paucity of resources or information for folks like me who have spent most of their lives fairly well integrated.
And there’s a lot of cultural garbage, from Hollywood, but also from the Satanic Panic fucks who tried to use fake cases of “repressed memories” and child alters to fuel their various conspiracy theories.
But yeah, I’ve had DID since I was 5, and that’s been confirmed by at least 4 therapists, not that their say-so differently would have changed my life experiences. I’m pretty well acquainted with how it works at least for me and I’ve talked to a lot of other folks where I can about their DID experiences because that’s my general approach with all my minority experiences as many of them have a complete dearth of trustworthy academic research (like, the states of ace and trans research are an absolute disaster and most of the halfway decent ones just focus on bodies of research and bundling of life experiences already done by the communities themselves).
I found out about how my various therapists thought of trans and ace individuals. Trans is just starting to get some acceptance from even them although it’s not uniform yet. Ace is even worse as it’s an even split between not a thing and actual disorder that needs treatment (one said that it wasn’t normal and something had to be wrong for it to even happen).
That’s really fascinating. I’m always curious about stuff like that but afraid to ask. I don’t want to overstep or the like which odds are I would knowing my big mouth XD
Seriously though, my town is worse than a lot of them. Drive 45 min and you find a bigger town that’s more open with people shocked that I’m from here. In my town, everybody is nice and helpful. You can forget your purse on a table or in a buggy and 99% of the time it will still be there. Strangers will help you put your groceries in the car. That kind of stuff. But most local people aren’t okay with gay people and say so to their face or behind their backs. He sister use to cover her kids eyes if gay people were on tv. If you’re openly a liberal, you will catch a lot of crap from strangers with most of us being quiet to avoid it while they leave stuff at the grocery store checkout about how terrible Democrats are. Christian stuff and sayings decorate most businesses from my doctor to my bank to my oil chance place. Not going to church will get you lectured by strangers even if a normal person would know that the time was inappropriate (like when my dog was having surgery). Being an atheist will get you accused of being a satanist and one time I had a guy follow me to my car because he overheard I wasn’t a Christian (he was creepy mad and after yelling a bit just stood there and glared at me until I drove off). The majority of people are racist (blacks and whites are terrible against each other, but aren’t as hard on Hispanics in my personal experience). An unfortunate number of people are sexist ranging from mild to OH MY GOD! Too many people are the kind that would use a phrase like “extreme vetting” in a positive way although they seem to be against Muslims more than people coming from Mexico and the like. And I’m a polysexual liberal atheist. It’s no wonder people ask me where I’m from twice XD
I’ll wait until one day when I’m less sleepy and figure out a list of questions for you. 🙂
Whoops, I didn’t make it clear why I was posting that link — it was because somebody said fugue states and memory loss were required for the diagnosis. The poster could check the link to see that those aren’t required for the diagnosis; even if you just go by the current DSM, Amber/AG totally fits with DID (as Cerberus has been saying all along).
I meant to support Cerb’s argument, in a way that this poster would understand, not to negate or invalidate her lived experience. Sorry that I looked like I was doing the opposite!
Spencer- *shrugs* I’m not a trained psychologist nor am I nor do I know anyone with that condition, so I would not be qualified to say one way or another. But I’ll trust someone’s opinion on that who is more qualified to speak on it.
It took me a little while to figure out who was who, but I realized that it just alternates Amber/AG/Amber/AG/Amber… but I think part of what’s confusing is that AG is panel 4 looks up, and I previously thought it’d be like a Amber-looking-up-at-AG-for-help and AG-looking-down-to-Amber… Like even though they’re the same person they’d have different positions for clarity. Kinda like how Jekyll & Hyde are during the Confrontation?
Laundry Girl, she’s a Laundry Girl!
Laundry Girl, she’s a Laundry Girl!
Okay fine, fer sure fer sure
She’ll get your whites all white
And the colors pure.
(doo doo DOO doo
doo doo DOO doo)
Laundry Grrl
Yes! We finally get to see an alter conversation, which is really good, because I was genuinely worried that AG had stopped communicating with Amber or had started hiding memories from her and it looks like neither is the case.
And that means recovery is going to be a lot easier than if the alters weren’t in communication with each other. But it is going to mean the two alters talking a lot more to figure out how to cope with the reality of their condition and make things a bit more integrated.
Also, woo, incontrovertible proof that this is in fact DID! Which means Amber/AG might be the first canon DID character who is not presented toxically stereotypically in webcomics, which is all sorts of awesome.
Panel 1: Oh Amber… It’s clear the blow-up she had with Danny (the one that was the Amber alter, not the one that was the AG alter) has hit her hard. Well, that and Mike’s little mind-games bullshit.
And so now Amber in the midst of a PTSD-fueled panic attack where she would not at all be to blame if she flailed out, is scared half-to-death of potentially hurting Sal, because that’s how she currently sees herself.
And cultural messages don’t help. Especially when you have DID. All the media out there sells the same story. The “dark alter” that makes the DID person a dangerous potential killer and abuser.
And it leads to a lot of bad coping strategies. I still remember when I was young and much like Amber/AG turned to some really bad coping strategies for handling my DID, being scared to death that my “anger alter” would have an “outburst” and so let that alter get abused and mistreated like she was an animal. And I hurt myself a lot in fear that I was just one bad turn from being a monster. That I needed to punish myself to protect others.
And it was all bullshit. I’ve never hurt anyone in anger, my anger alter was a critical part of my social justice instincts, and by fearing that outcome, believing it was inevitable, I allowed myself to get bullied into some abusive situations and nearly killed myself several times.
And I really want Amber to eventually get to a place where she no longer lives in fear that she’s some danger to others. Cause that’ll be a key part of her healing process.
I mean, it feels pretty done and settled when we have a full blown argument between alters directly addressing each other and I’d struggle to think of alternate explanations, but YMMV.
“incontrovertible proof that this is in fact DID!”
…the medical condition with a diagnostic criteria of “recurring amnesia”?
Amber has only the symptoms of DID that are popular on TV, lacks half the diagnostic criteria, and is strongly atypical in the purported symptoms she does show, or fails to show.
“Symptoms of dissociative identity disorder (criteria for diagnosis) include:
[…] Ongoing gaps in memory about everyday events, personal information and/or past traumatic events.”
Memory trouble is a diagnostic criteria for DID, and Amber doesn’t appear to have that.
Cerberus is speaking from personal experience with DID, and even the DSM later mentions that those symptoms can be managed, though it goes into exactly zero details about how that is accomplished or what that even means.
I don’t think you understand how mental illnesses work. Not everyone experiences every symptom. I know this and I only took literally one class in high school and got a B.
Oh, not everyone experiences every symptom, but memory trouble isn’t one of those symptoms that don’t matter to the diagnosis – it’s one of the symptoms that are required for the diagnosis. Someone who doesn’t have memory trouble cannot be properly diagnosed with DID, because the definition of DID is “multiple personalities and memory trouble”, not just multiple personalities. If Amber has a dissociative disorder, it has to be DDNOS or something.
We’re not even talking about Amber at this point. Cerberus has just explained how she knows DID from living it. You keep completely brushing that off like your armchair psychology degree somehow gives you greater credibility on the matter (it does not).
First of all, no. In mental health, few disorders have ‘you must have this’ so much as there’s a list of symptoms and after a certain number of matches, it’s a safe call to make (at least with personality disorders). Secondly, memory loss is a symptom of a full split – as in, the alters are not speaking, working together, or sharing memories. Amber, if she has DID, does not have a full split, she’d be partially integrated – as in, sharing memories and the alters are speaking, but they’re not working together and have no arrangement to co-exist. DID is not just full splits.
It’s just the most focused on symptom, because non-integrated DID is the sexiest to study and so that’s where the majority of clinical attention gets paid. Because once we’re integrated we’re “normal” in the eyes of too much of the establishment.
What matters most is the alters for the diagnosis and for it to create issues that would not otherwise occur without the condition. Memory issues are a sign of poor or absent integration, often because the person with it is actively fighting one of their alters and is trying to cut it out.
It used to be a much more common part of DID, because old protocols were awful and about trying to “remove” the alters, which meant alters fought back and hid to avoid being attacked which means non-shared memories (memory gaps) and independent actions (what gets depicted in movies and TV, because it’s so visually striking).
I’ve been more or less integrated since I was 5. I’ve fucked with that and paid the price for it, but it’s meant lacking much in the way of gaps that I can discern, because everyone’s memory pools are more or less shared.
And the only times an alter demanded unilateral and independent action and did so, I was terrifyingly aware and present during it. Which was possibly the most terrifying life experience I’ve ever had and I’m counting being threatened by neo-nazis on that.
I have DID, that’s been confirmed by at least 4 different therapists and psychiatrists (current therapist, current psychiatrist, former temporary therapist, and previous long-term therapist). It’s an official part of my psychological diagnosis and my life experiences are such that quite a number of events that happened in my life would not have happened if I wasn’t DID.
Listen, I’ve spent over a quarter century living with this in me. It’s the vast majority of my life experiences. My fiancee also has DID. I’ve spent a long damn time talking with other DID folks about what they do and don’t experience. I’ve spent a long time researching the state of research on my condition, because I’m a nerd like that.
You may have been told in school that memory issues are “required”. But they’re not. The alters are required. Everything else is for determining severity and recommended treatment protocol.
I don’t mean to be brusque about this, but this is very much like someone coming up to me and going “all asexuals hate having sex, that’s required to be asexual” or “all trans people get surgery, if you don’t get surgery you’re not trans”. And it feels just as invalidating.
I’ve spent my whole life dealing with this shit. I know what I’m talking about. And I’m not overly enamored of being asked to beg for the right to be trusted on that, when it is a knowledge base built with time, effort, and a lot of pain.
Like, if you need me to bleed my life experiences more overtly, I can do that. But I feel that shouldn’t be necessary to be trusted as someone who knows what she is talking about.
Like, I’m a pretty analytical person (no, really, I’m sure it’s a shock to everyone), I’ve double-checked my transness, my aceness, my queerness. Do you really not think I haven’t double-checked this too?
This is actually pretty interesting. Do you know of any articles I could read that details all this stuff about memory loss only being present in non-integrated minds, the amnesia criterion being there only because it’s sexier to study that etc.?
Scholarly article about continuum of experiences and lack of clinical studies regarding integrated DID folks (though still comes with a lot of author baggage including noting that DID people don’t all or typicaly view integration as the erasure of their personalities into one, but presenting that in the Conclusion as the “sign” of integration): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880957/
Critique of older model based on viewing integration as killing off personalities and bringing them all into one whole and presentation of the more commonly held model of a group working together to define one’s “integrated personality” (that is how my integration has always worked. Disparate, distinct alters with their own worldviews, emotions, and baggage, working together or fighting based on the circumstances) (also worth noting that for some people, the alters disappearing into the whole model of integration works really well for them and is their preferred method of describing their experiences): https://www.discussingdissociation.com/2008/12/integration-a-requirement-for-did-therapy-or-not/
The first part of this interview has an after-interview note by DID subject noting that disassociative amnesia is not a universal DID experience (note she also talks about integration as the former alters coming into the whole model, which is what accurately describes her own recovery). She also notes two major clusters, but there are others beyond Possession and Amnesia: http://mentalpod.com/archives/4028
A critique of integration as disappearance of former alters into a whole and promotion of integration as teamwork (which the author does not view as integration, but rather just teamwork. Personally I consider this integration for me as most of the time, my general personality is formed by the gestalt of this cooperation between the disparate alters and they work fairly smoothly with each other these days, even helping me do things like using dissociative states to better cope with abusive or toxic situations, my “analytical alter” and my “creativity alter” are key for this). Minor/major grievance, I dislike how harsh the author is to people for whom the integration as a folding in of former alters model works for them: https://www.discussingdissociation.com/2012/05/integration-a-new-category-and-nine-quick-opinions/
And the sum total really paints a picture of how only the Dissociative Amnesiac patients get more clinical focus (and to be fair, that’s often because they need the most direct care) as well as the dueling models between the older and becoming less and less popular “integration as disappearing of alters into whole” model and the newer “integration as healthy cooperation by disparate alters” model, which has avoided one of the big hurdles that the first model hit of alters feeling attacked and hiding or fighting back.
Most of the integration by early model success cases I have spoken to have done so by retaining a lot of love and care for what they consider “former alters” and focus a lot of attention on recognizing their legacy as living inside their “whole” personality. Likely because that means the alter is less likely to rebel their “deaths”.
I currently have a post with a bunch of links stewing in moderation, but wanted to let you know of that so you didn’t think I’ve forgotten your request.
I wanna give a preemptive thanks for you amassing those. I’ve been interested in reading on DID but a lot of the research I’ve done has been vague and contradictory, so I’m excited to get my hands on these.
I do have a question – on the ‘former alters, new whole’ model, is that like the second model with the alters behind the scenes instead of consciously working together, are they functionally the same as someone without DID, or is it something else? Or is this something case by case?
In the “former alters, new whole” model, the idea is that the alters disappear into character aspects of one consistent permanent personality. So basically, you cease having the alters but their character quirks just become part of your consistent personality.
It’s tricky to make work, cause many alters see this as trying to kill them, especially if it’s set as “necessary” to be better. And as such has been becoming more and more unpopular in favor of the more committee model style.
But for some it works as a model and for the woman in that piece, she has a lot of love and respect for the former alters and what they bring to her personality and that’s a critical component of making that model work if it’s going to work for you.
But yeah, these days there is a growing more and more support for integration model that involves the more Inside Out style committee model (seriously, that movie was so critical for kids with various conditions, DID included) as it tends to have better and more lasting success more frequently and relies much less on retraumatization (yeah, that was a recommended thing not that long ago) and placing “being indistinguishable from a normative person” as the main end goal.
Which is why some of the articles were a bit… aggressive in their support for this newer model given some of the bad things that happened under the older model.
Fart Captor: …and then I click the X on the *second* popup (all this with adblock on, ugh). that’s fixed it (for now?), thanks! 🙂
Cerberus: omg, I was crying through all of Inside Out. I normally cry in disney movies, but that one, the whole thing from start to end. so many feels. And I learned things.
as for committee vs merging models (haven’t read the articles yet)… I like what I’ve seen of the Crystal Gems so far, where they can fuse and un-fuse again, so nothing is really destroyed. I’m wondering if it might be useful for me – my committee sorta lacks a good/continuous chair, and tends to devolve into bikeshedding or yelling.
ooh, I just remembered a story with a sorta-DID-ish character that gave me a quote that helps me stabilise my mind (but I’ve lost it, so I’ll post again when I find that bit because I want the exact words)
It’s a naruto looper fanfic with Sakura as the main character, and very NSFW in some (..ok most) chapters, so probably not for everyone. but I loved it. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5193644/1/Time-Braid
Ah, so the goal there is set as ‘be indistinguishable to someone without DID.’ While I am glad it works for some, I can see how it easily doesn’t. I imagine this would have to be a decision by the former alters to make this work otherwise they may disintegrate again?
Ooh, I like the fusion metaphor. Especially since I have moments where two or three work extremely closely together to complete a task that definitely feels very Crystal Gem temporary fusion like.
Also *DID fistbump*
BBCC-
Yup. If it’s externally forced it tends to fall apart and the system tends to be shitty to folks who “integrate” under that system but then refragment as they are often framed as failures rather than folks for whom that model of integration doesn’t work.
And apparently refragmentation of that model of integration tends to be fairly high. It’s definitely something that works for some, but there’s a reason general protocol has been drifting more and more away from that being the dominant model of integration.
“I’m just glad no one’s tried to do the whole “yeah, I’m just going to discount your lived experiences in favor of some half-remembered ideas about the DSM” (the guide that still currently lists asexuality as a disorder (Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder), mind you) yet.”
:c
Eukie, I’ve been living with this condition since at least when I was 5. Please trust me that I know what I’m talking about with regards to what and what is not required for DID.
Panel 2: It’s remarkable to realize just how bad AG is at comforting Amber and how scenes like this reveal the falsehood of AG’s central mythology that she is the benevolent protector of the Amber alter.
Like, Amber is in a full PTSD-fueled panic attack (though remarkably better than before given that she hasn’t completely become subverbal this time) and is scared to death that she’s going to hurt someone in her trauma response.
And AG’s response to that is to berate her and put even more focus on the things that would make Amber even more likely to panic.
Like, fuck, I can’t imagine saying to anyone freaking out, “yeah, you are cornered and trapped in a situation that is causing you great pain, well, whatever, the important thing is how this might impact me.”
And yet, when the chips are down, that’s what AG values. Not doing right by another, not being kind, but instead focusing on herself and doing a similar berating thing to what Blaine said to her before she stabbed Sal.
She’s not the golden alter she’s selling herself as. But maybe in dropping the voice for a moment, she’s starting to see the similarities between them instead of maintaining this artificial divide.
Panel 3: Yes, this moment is huge! Why? Because it’s Amber calling out AG on what she perceives to be a mistake.
Like, every scene we’ve seen before, the Amber alter has deferred to the mythology that AG has set. That AG is the golden alter, that she is the mass of pain and damage and potential darkness. And that it was never her place to critique or negatively judge AG’s actions.
But here, she calls out AG’s actions. And does so in a way that also notes AG’s hypocrisy in attacking her in Panel 2. Like, favoring her closet to Amber’s mental health when she did so much to already damage the closet and heavily hint things when hanging with Sal (like how her alter ego was a techie, letting Sal track her phone, which could have led her straight to Amber).
And it’s especially hypocritical when AG left Amber holding the bag on her handling of the Danny situation and yet isn’t willing to help bail her out of this situation.
Also… um… is Amber suggesting that AG has a crush on Sal here?
Cause that would be interesting if Amber/AG turned out to be bi, especially as it would be a slow burn from the Shortpacked! strip where AU-Amber proposed a foursome with Mike, Ethan, and Dina.
Also, um, Amber, it depends on the universe, but a bunch of Superman comics have Superman fully out to Lois about his dual identities.
So I’m just gonna point out that there was a time when Sal said something along the lines of “why do you hate me so much” and AG responded with something like “I don’t hate you, never you”
At the time the line seemed REALLY weird to me (I’ll go hunt it down after typing this). I eventually concluded that AG’s hatred and obsession with Sal was hatred of herself and whatnot. But this strip brings back one of the random thoughts that I had back then of there being a crush or a love/hate thing going on. I quickly discarded it as ridiculous then but now….. well it’s back on the table at least
Hate-crushes are a thing. When you’ve got so much repressed shit and self-hatred, it’s easy to focus an obsession on someone else instead of looking inward.
i mean like at least part of why amber stabbed sal in the first place was blaine goading her to do something about being so vulnerable
she has to know that sal didn’t deserve it, like she didn’t deserve any of blaine’s treatment of her
so the fact that sal’s grown up from that kid who held her up in a gas station to someone with a leather jacket, a motorcycle, and most of her shit together has to be…..
well i mean we all know it’s real attractive but now we know that amber knows
It’s interesting that Amber goes straight to Lois as metaphor Sal. Not Luthor, not Zod, not even someone less-villianous-but-still-influential like Perry White or Sam Lane. Nope, straight to the love interest. The love interest that Amber would know perfectly well knows Superman’s identity in probably about as many storylines as not.
Yeah, it’s a really interesting metaphor, because as you say, a villain or someone more antagonist would feel like the more natural metaphor, but she went with the love interest instead and I feel that’s likely intentional.
Can the various personae of a DID sufferer have different sexual orientations? For example, could Amazi-Girl be a lesbian/bi whilst Amber is straight? I’m just wondering if Willis is planning the romantic triangle from Hell.
I’ve known folks who’ve had that experience. My fiancee says that that makes it hard to have a clear idea of their orientation because different alters have different inputs on that so it creates a pretty fluid grey-ace mess.
Gender identity can also sometimes differ between alters as well. Like, I’m always a bit scared of talking about this, because I don’t want my gender identity erased by this (though I have been side-eyeing the demigirl label a bit more these days), but of my main four alters, two are women and two identify as non-binary/agender. And one of my alters is a little bit more aromantic than the others though not enough for me to consider myself arospec.
Romantic and sexual orientation is pretty well consistent at least for me, though. Asexual throughout and queer-romantic for the majority.
Cerberus, yeah we have a variety of gender identities too. I am a man and our host and our body is female, we have a trans woman, men, women, little girls, ana fair number of nonhumans.
BenRG, in my personal experience, yes, everyone can have different orientations. I am pansexual and the others are straight, bi, asexual, gay, and for some they aren’t sure.
*DID high-dive returned* You know, based on your posts I’ve seen, we have a lot in common, both trans (though for me it’s a medical label and not part of how I id), both have a partner who also has DID (in my case another man), have reached communication with others in our headspace, though I am poly fragmented so I still have a lot more people to get to know, and both come from crappy homes. It’s nice to know my situation and combination of experiences isn’t as odd as I had thought. It’s hard when you feel like the odd one out, so I’m glad to know I’m not alone.
Knowing others who have been through the same stuff has been critical for me as I have a lot of marginalized identities that made me beat myself up a lot growing up about being “wrong”.
It’s one of my favorite things about my dynamic with my fiancee. I don’t really have to do much 101 stuff about the trans, ace, or DID, because they’ve experienced it all first hand.
Yeah, it’s really nice. My husband understands a lot too because we’re both pansexual and both have DID. Also, because most of his head mates are female or gender fluid he could grasp my gender being different from my body. Interestingly, neither he nor I knew about having DID when we met, we both received diagnosis about a year apart, first me then him, when we’d been together 2 years. We both laugh about it now because many of our respective head mates met before either of us knew they were there or more accurately remembered they were there since we knew as kids and then barriers slammed down hard as we got older and we forgot.
The voice is a deliberate and conscious effort to hide her identity, rather than a signature manifestation of the separate identity the way her cheek color is.
…. at least it started out that way. I kinda wonder if it’s slowly getting incorporated.
It is a conscious effort to put the voice on rather than being a set indicator of who is in control. Due to Sal’s closeness to her location, she isn’t putting it on because it would give away rather than hide her identity.
Panel 4: AG is so bad at hearing what Amber is actually saying and that really gets hammered home here. Like, every Amber line is in response to things AG is saying and takes those into account, bringing up pieces of their shared memories. But AG just barrels ahead on her own path, not really responding to any of the actual concerns or fears that Amber has.
Like, Amber is not worried about whether or not Sal is a great person, fuck, she used a metaphor based on two people who are in love with each other to describe AG and Sal’s dynamic. She’s upset that AG is blaming her for potentially “outing” her when she nearly outed her to Sal. And she’s worried that she’ll hurt Sal in her panic state.
But for AG, she dumped all of her creepy behavior towards Sal onto Amber and so now gets to “heroically defend” Sal from Amber’s inability to see the good in Sal (a good that AG openly refused to see until she literally became the symbol of white nationalist anger to a crowd of racists).
And she says that Sal won’t hurt her or Ethan… which was a concern Amber had when she was at the corner store or maybe a few weeks ago when she was scared of bumping into her. But that’s not anywhere near the concerns Amber’s listed now.
And so her suggestion to take a deep breath just feels condescending because she’s just responding to her idea of what Amber is like rather than what Amber is actually saying. But who knows, maybe the eyes reveal that Amber speaking back in her defense is making the first mark in changing that dynamic. I dunno, I’m an optimist.
Panel 5: Yup, this is definitely feeling like Sal wants a few words about what went down with Danny, which just makes AG’s deference and prioritization of her superhero closet all the more upsetting. Like, this is one more fallout caused by AG, but once again, AG is expecting Amber to clean up her mess for her.
And poor Amber is being stretched to her limits given that conversation or no, she’s still in a PTSD panic attack.
Panel 6: Huh, apparently Amber/AG is Sam Fisher.
Though that’s only going to delay the meeting at best.
Amber/AG seem to me more like River Tam: traumatized, damaged, brilliant, inscrutable and unpredictable, with unexpected capabilities — but trying to do the right thing, deep down.
Cerberus, I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while, and now seems like a good time (well maybe I’m asking too late today and you won’t see this…) . Um, how would a person know that they have DID? Like, would it be very clear to themselves that they have alters? Ok, I’m asking cuz I think there’s a tiny chance I might have that…
(shit, I keep writing more stuff but I’m pretty confused about it, so I’ll just ask the above cuz at least that makes sense)
It depends on the person. For me, it was very clear and unmistakable, but other people have much subtler interactions with their alters (internal arguments, rapid shifts behind personas, etc…). Plus, we’re very good at a species at ignoring all the signs of something that is retroactively obvious (the self-denials I used by the end to avoid the truth of being trans were laughable in retrospect).
I think most of all, it is worth being kind to yourself. Whether you are DID or you are not, something is going on with you that is moving you to ask that question and that is ok.
And whatever it is, is a part of you and does not detract from how awesome and good you are. And it is also okay to be confused and searching for the right words to describe an experience or a condition. Bob knows I’ve spent my time doing that.
But if you’ve been thinking about it for awhile and it’s an idea that keeps coming up, that might be a sign in and of itself. Certainly it worked that way for me regarding my gender and sexuality. If stuff I’m talking about with regards to my life experiences on this are resonating, that might also be a sign. Note with all of this, that this is just might.
If you want a more private space to talk about some of this stuff, my safe email address is cerberussadlyno AT gmail DOT com.
It tells you something about how Amazi-Girl has started viewing Sal. Although, frankly, viewing her as the Black Canary to her Huntress would be a more precise comparison.
I would have liked this a lot better if there were some clear indication who was who without having to parse what they are saying and think who would be saying which one.
He could draw both eyes differently and keep that idea of having the bubbles come out of only the eye representing the personality.
Also, it would make a whole lot more sense if these were thought bubbles–unless the intent is that someone can actually hear her.
I think that you can generally tell from the eyes. If he gives the eyes a sclera, then it’s Amazi-Girl. If it’s just a dot in the centre of the lens of the glasses, then it’s Amber.
Huh, I completely misread the tone of that penultimate panel. Even with context, I automatically interpreted “WAAAAGH!” as aggression instead of panic like I would a “WAAAUGH!” Funny how habits form.
Now it will be interesting to see if Sal thinks to look up. In my experience, this is simply something that, instinctively, humans won’t do when looking for fellow members of their species.
It would probably be more comedic if Amber lost her grip and fell on Sal. Two untangled sets of limbs and embarrassed apologies later, Amber will be trying to remember why she was scared and Sal will be trying to remember why she’s angry.
Humans generally have had no good reason to evolve a “look up” instinct. We’ve evolved (mostly) in open spaces, and there’s nothing big enough in the sky to hunt us.
AG is abusive to Amber. She blames Amber for her blunders… You know, that’s like having an horrible roomate that just refuses to really cooperate in the house, and you’re just stuck with him/her. Amber will have to decide one day in the future : a heartfelt thank you alongside with a note of eviction would be best.
Yeah, that’s the thing about alters. They are you so there’s no getting rid of them. Even if they’ve done terrible things to the other alters, it’s on everyone to find a way to coexist and build a healthy cooperative dynamic.
Typically, chairs like that have relatively soft sides with a degree of cushioning, so clinging like Amber is doing is VERY difficult at best. But she seems to be pulling it off with little effort!
I want to spitball a hypothetical scenario with all of you. What if, (and I stress the word if IF) Amber never stabbed Sal? What if the schism between AG and Amber developed not because felt guilty for the way she acted after Ethan was held hostage in the convenience store by Sal, but because Amber neglected to react at all? What if AG’s personality manifested itself as an atonement for the fact that Amber not only witnessed this awful robbery attempt and failed to act, but all of this violence and anger and rage is all in Amber’s mind? Maybe the stabbing of Sal is an impulse that Amber wishes she could act on, and so AG was created out of the need to satisfy Amber’s more bestial–albeit repressed– instincts.
The problem lies therein the fact that Amber and AG can no longer tell the difference between fantasy and reality and the two universes that she dwells in are starting to bleed unto themselves. And thus everyone she comes into contact with at the University doesn’t actually know why amber acts the way she does and that is why everyone she knows has a different opinion of her. Danny sees Amber as a victim and AG as a Hero. Dina and Dorothy see Amber as misunderstood and AG as a hero. And Ethan sees Amber as someone who is tortured as has an selfish need to lash out at the world. Sal has no memory of Amber even though this robbery attempt only happened only 5 years ago but AG as a friend. Blake constantly berates Amber for never being strong enough and Joyce sees amber as a trouble woman who flipped over a table in the commesary and punched out her abusive father in the dormitory. Billie on the other hand just sees Amazi-girl as a local urban legend and she treats Amber as someone who is basically a nobody in the most literal sense. Amber isn’t even on Billies radar whatsoever.
So that is my theory. AG is basically Amber’s psychosomatic response to the fact that she was too afraid to lash out at her tormentor and so she found a way to cope with the guilt that manifested from that.
Any such theory would have to explain why Sal never removes her gloves and has on occasion (especially when under social stress) been seen rubbing at the point where Amber stabbed her.
That only works if Sal saw her face. Amber was hiding during the robbery, and came up from behind her to stab her and her eyes were clenched shut because fucking OW afterwards. Presumably she was busy screaming, possibly crying, and panicking because jesus christ, a knife just went through her hand (and word of the PDFs was through, not in, so it looks like she’d have a hole all the way through and probably heavy bleeding, if not broken bone, fucked up nerves, muscle, tendons, etc.). I think Sal was a bit busy to memorize her face. Also, Amber didn’t recognize Sal immediately the first time she was in a room with her. It was only when she saw Sal in a similar outfit that the pieces came together.
also like it was…ten or so years ago. they’ve all grown up a lot since then. it might have been more traumatic for amber than for sal, idk. sometimes being the victim vs. being the perpetrator works like that. and sal had a lot more shit happen after she got arrested to be traumatized by.
I don’t think he’s been confirmed as to exact sexuality yet other than at least liking guys and at least being interested in sex to some degree or another.
Eric is a sexbot. It is his prime directive to give people sexual pleasure in the most efficient manner possible. It does not matter to Eric who or what they are.
I’m half hoping Sal flips open the chair which Amber is perched in just to see if she holds that position the whole trip down. Granted, I know it would end in horror, but but it would still be interesting.
All I wanna do
is see you turn into
a giant woman (a giant woman)
(I watched the second fusion episode today, but it was the first that reminded me of my own internal conflict. … and now I know where Dance Dance Authentication comes from. 😉
(also, this DID discussion has made it easier to understand how I can be super-happy with my Becky avatar while also sad that it’s not the Dina avatar. someone needs to draw a Gem Fusion of those two 😉
So Becky’s height, hair, freckles, and plaid coupled with Dina’s skin tone, facial structure and hat? That’s…that’s what I’m picturing in my head at least and it’s um is it hot in here?
on this note this makes the danny thing a lot more interesting because like:
amber gets a crush, they go out, amazi-girl breaks them up because of the threat to her identity. meanwhile amazi-girl is growing a crush on sal. and it’s not like it’s something amazi-girl seems to be interested in in general but like i’m sure it’s hard for amazi-girl to find people who share her interests.
and i mean there was….a legit triangle going on with danny, where amber and amazi-girl made danny choose whether to go out with amber or amazi-girl. and he chose amber, which was great for amber, but had to have left amazi-girl with so many conflicted feelings. and it’s probably not like amazi-girl can just tune out while amber and danny were with each other? if they were roommates, that’d be tough; as headmates, that has got to be even tougher.
MEANWHILE, the laundry girl nickname is giving me all sorts of fun flashbacks to dr. horrible’s video blog and penny, who deserved absolutely none of her fate and stands out as, like. the actual person doing the most good in the world of the cast.
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Amber, man. Amber, man.
Doing whatever Amber can.
Spins about the Pokéstop
Throws a ball to make Sal drop.
Look out!
Where is that Amber, man?
Is she strong? Listen, Sal,
She’s in League of Legends, pal.
Can she cling to the roof?
Take a look, see the truth.
Hey, there,
There is that Amber, man.
She’s got a watch with a schizo hand,
a paranoid hand, and a PTSD hand.
When they meet, it’s complete bedlam.
Crazy-ass man, Amber man.
Shades of “The World’s Angriest Dog”!
Since people confusing schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder is a major pet peeve of mine *smacks you with the DSM*
I tried to order a copy of the DSM-V, but I had to stand in line for hours.
I think I can claim poetic license when “schizo” will fit the rhythm of the verse and “dissociative identity disorder” won’t. 😛
If you refer to a Puerto Rican as a Mexican because it rhymes better, claiming poetic license isn’t going to make them less offended.
In the neeeeest of chairs
Is where she spends her time
Between Pooooookestops,
She enjoys fighting crime!
It’s official. Amber’s new superhero name is Laundry Girl, just like Sal said. Look how she harnesses the power of static cling!
Can’t wait to see her crossover with Robo-Vac in the Household Chores Cinematic Universe.
I dunno. This seems more like the sort of experience to make her wet her sheets, than drier sheets.
whoa hey, she really is Spider-Car
Actually, I’m seeing James Bond in “Goldfinger.”
Also, since there’s only one exit from that box, great way to reveal that *Amber* has the surprising physical abilities to be Amazigirl
pweeeeeee
rrrrrrrr
[splinter cell]pweeeeeee[/splinter cell]
I’m really starting to hate Amazi-Girl. LISTEN TO AMBER FOR ONCE, YOU STUPID JERK. She’s not afraid of Sal hurting her or Ethan. She’s afraid she’ll be triggered, lash out, and hurt SAL. And telling her not to be scared of Sal is not helpful. Fear rarely works that way.
Amber is afraid. Amazi-Girl is actually the more stable and sensible one right now.
My issue is that AG is clearly ignoring what Amber is saying she’s scared OF. “Sal won’t hurt you or Ethan.” – Great, but that means nothing when Amber’s afraid SHE is going to hurt SAL.
She is scared she will hurt Sal because she identifies Sal as a threat. It’s not like Amber goes around wanting to hurt everyone. AG is trying to convince her that Sal is no more of a threat than anyone else.
Amber is afraid of Sal because she was traumatized by losing her temper and stabbing her 5 years ago. Again, Amber’s temper and capacity for violence is one of Amber’s greatest fears. She needs to be told that just seeing her is not a guarantee she’ll stab her, not that Sal’s not a threat. That’s not what Amber is disputing here.
Yeah, I think AG is making it more and more clear that she doesn’t actually listen to Amber and just follows whatever idea of the scared girl at the corner store she’s got of Amber.
Yeah, AG’s kinda a mega asshole to Amber.
She really is.
Which, that might just be a “golden alter” trait. Like, the sheer level of fucked up shit my “golden alter” did to my poor “anger alter” was nightmare inducing. Torture, violence, abuse, locking her up in cages and boxes so she “wouldn’t get out” and be heard. Made all the worst by my “anger alter” carrying a bit of a torch for my “golden alter”.
Which I guess, it’s hard to build yourself up as the embodiment of everything good without also tearing down another alter as therefore being the embodiment of everything bad.
EEK. Jesus, that sounds intense. *appropriate gesture of support*
If you don’t mind, do you mind answering what you mean by locked up? As in physically or mentally?
Mentally. Basically extreme suppression of ability to participate with intense feelings of confinement and pain for the alter making them even more likely to rage because she was being mistreated. The “golden alter” tended to describe it like caging a wild animal, so all too willing to cede lots of power to the “golden alter” “in order to protect others from harm”.
That sounds pretty similar to how I “handled” my anger issues growing up, though I mostly just bottled or caged my rage beast to try and keep it from breaking free. Didn’t work that well, and it led to a lot of self-loathing because I couldn’t excise it permanently.
Eventually, I decided that if I wanted to be able to love myself, I had to love all parts of myself – including the parts I hated. I uncaged and embraced my monster, loved and accepted it as part of myself, and now I have a much better handle on it because I work to understand my feelings instead of hide them away.
*supportive hug*
Aw, yikes, that sounds awful. I’m glad things have improved since. For both of you *hug*
Why should improving as a person NOT require trimming out negative traits? If you don’t, you get a personality crisis about which way you act is really your hands on the wheel and which way is of you is the side that panics and crashes the car. I understand specifically for this circumstance, supposing she does truly have a multiple personality disorder or whatever (schizophrenia?). But in general, people improve by managing unnecessary baggage and becoming at peace with stepping away from it — which is usually immediate and natural because who doesn’t want to improve? The only people I see struggling with improvement are those with addictions holding them down.
Okay, I’ll give in that self-loathing/depression make people feel unworthy of improvement. But that usually doesn’t involve shoving the bad stuff into a back pocket, usually that just involves stagnating and being hesitant.
There’s so much wrong here? What makes you so convinced that “trimming negative personality traits” (what?) isn’t just shoving bad stuff into a back pocket? Who has so much control over their personality that they can just shed traits at will?
Someone with a bad temper can learn to manage it but I’ve never heard anyone seriously suggest that they just cease having a bad temper by “trimming” it.
“What makes you so convinced that “trimming negative personality traits” (what?) isn’t just shoving bad stuff into a back pocket? Who has so much control over their personality that they can just shed traits at will?”
Can’t reply on that one apparently. If you’re not actually shoving stuff into the back pocket then it’s not a quick process where you “just shed traits at will”, but it’s entirely possible. Some degree of doing so is a pretty normal part of growing up. Most people just don’t have some kind of PTSD-induced split-personality disorder, though.
*whacked with the DSM for being another person who can’t be arsed to at least Google the difference between schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder*
Seriously, I don’t even know how that became a thing. That’s like confusing the common cold with cancer. Or on a less medically-related note, like confusing a sports car with a cardboard box lying on the side of the road.
In 1908, Eugen Bleuler introduced the term schizophrenia to represent a revised disease concept for Emil Kraepelin’s dementia praecox.[82] Whereas Kraepelin’s natural disease entity was anchored in the metaphor of progressive deterioration and mental weakness and defect, Bleuler offered a reinterpretation based on dissociation or “splitting’ (Spaltung) and widely broadened the inclusion criteria for the diagnosis. A review of the Index medicus from 1903 through 1978 showed a dramatic decline in the number of reports of multiple personality after the diagnosis of schizophrenia became popular, especially in the United States.[83] The rise of the broad diagnostic category of dementia praecox has also been posited in the disappearance of “hysteria” (the usual diagnostic designation for cases of multiple personalities) by 1910.[84] A number of factors helped create a large climate of skepticism and disbelief; paralleling the increased suspicion of DID was the decline of interest in dissociation as a laboratory and clinical phenomenon.[79]
Starting in about 1927, there was a large increase in the number of reported cases of schizophrenia, which was matched by an equally large decrease in the number of multiple personality reports.[79] With the rise of a uniquely American reframing of dementia praecox/schizophrenia as a functional disorder or “reaction” to psychobiological stressors—a theory first put forth by Adolf Meyer in 1906—many trauma-induced conditions associated with dissociation, including “shell shock” or “war neuroses” during World War I, were subsumed under these diagnoses.[82] It was argued in the 1980s that DID patients were often misdiagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia.[79]
In short, Dragon, it’s a decades-long misdiagnosis problem that persisted well into the latter half of the last century, and the cultural impact of that misdiagnosis still haunts the public understanding of the two disorders.
It also doesn’t help that a lot of media during that time upheld the improper understanding.
Well, it might be important for folks to cut out “negative traits”, but that’s not what I had. I had an alter, so trying to cut her out meant that she fought back for her life and I made things mentally worse for myself and that nearly ended up killing me.
Recommended protocol with DID is to pursue integration, which means giving every alter no matter how “negative” a voice at the table and care and empathy even if they have no real control over your responses. Because an alter is like a person, thinks it is like a person, so has human needs like the need to be heard, the need for life, and so on.
And so when you pursue integration and a caring approach to alters it means overall better health.
And for me that was critical, because my “anger alter” wasn’t what my “golden alter” sold her as. My “golden alter” sold her as a monster, too dangerous to be allowed to speak, something needing to be caged and destroyed and hurt.
But what she actually is is someone who cares deeply about justice and equality. She’s the part of me that’ll put myself into contortions and knots to support others who are being mistreated. She’s the part of me that fights for friends and fights for myself.
A lot of those traits a lot of folks on here perceive as positive, what has most driven how hard I’ve fought for the student who was assaulted and for students who’ve been bullied and harassed?
She’s the one who drives those. Trying to kill her was a mistake. And it very nearly was a fatal one.
@thecerpent Thanks for that, I really did always wonder how and why people mept thinking they were the same damn thing
Wow. Um. Cerberus, that… sounds familiar. My anger is out of its box and becoming quite helpful, but perfectionism/anxiety/NVoice is really hating on ADHD, except what it blames adhd for is sometimes actually an anxiety thing (and there are at least *two* separate aspects of anxiety too)…
thanks for the integration comment, I think that just made something click. it’s scary to even consider the possibility of integration with a part of yourself that’s hurling emotional abuse at other parts of you 24/7. I’ve been focused on setting boundaries instead – and I’m now remembering that I’ve been down this path before. When compassion feels unsafe, it’s been because of a lack of boundaries. Once my boundaries are strong enough to protect me, anger isn’t needed, and compassion becomes an option. The two are complementary skills. 🙂 I was doing the right thing all along… and knowing me, I’ll probably start on the compassion naturally when it’s time. 🙂
Thanks. 🙂 🙂 🙂
also – any reading suggestions? all I know about DID is what’s on the wikipedia page. I’m just going off general cbt/mindfulness stuff (or the weird variants that I came up with to work around my mental blocks) and RBN stuff.
aha, found the reading list below. 🙂 (for anyone else looking, it’s currently match #42 for “Cerberus” – I guess that’ll make it 43 – somewhere under #comment-1215649 )
My links are in one of the comments under this comment for those looking:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/cornered-2/#comment-1215840
She’s sprightly.
*plays “Gallant Char” from the MOBILE SUIT GUNDAM soundtrack on the hacked Muzak*
Amber’s a cartoon! I love it.
Still disliking Sal and her use of demeaning nick names however this and the previous strip is still making me smile so that’s good
“laundry girl” is literally the only place Sal thinks she recognizes Amber from
How is “Laundry Girl” demeaning? It’s literally the only thing that she knows about Amber — the girl who dropped her laundry in the hallway, then freaked out and ran away.
You think a stranger would want to be reminded of the time they freaked out and ran away?
Laundry girl is a demeaning nick name, much like wonderbread is, I don’t know why Sal has a habit of giving people demeaning nick names but, to me, its a form of bullying
Wonderbread started off demeaning (when Danny came out of nowhere annoying Sal) but by now it’s fairly clearly affectionate and Danny has voiced no objection to it when he’s had ample opportunity to. Same thing for calling Joyce ‘kid’.
It has to be very extenuating circumstances for Danny to say anything negative to a girl (he’ll make someone a fine doormat one day) and Joyce would pretty much accept anything Sal gives her
“Oh Sal you’ve given me a decapitated kitten how lovely, can I brush your hair”
Even when Danny was at his doormat-iest, he had no problem telling a girl ‘hey, screw you!’ when he thought she was insulting him. That was Billie, right before he met Sal. And Joyce has definitely been squicked or shocked by things Sal’s done and has never had a hard time voicing when people she’s admired are upsetting her – see her parents insulting Dorothy, Dorothy ‘trying to change her’ during their marital set up, Toedad in general, etc. If she were really upset by Sal calling her kid, I’m fairly sure she’d at least say ‘Hey, uhh can you call me something else, please? Maybe you can come up with something while I brush your hair?”
Uh, no, Danny FLAT OUT told Sal not to call him that anymore. That was a key point in everyone pointing out she was being a dick to him.
Please point out that specific strip, because the most Danny has told Sal is ‘go jump some stairs’. He’s never objected to being called Wonderbread, as far as I remember.
No, he has not. I just ran through the archives through Sal and Danny’s interactions. He’s never told her anything of the sort.
Times She’s Called Him Wonderbread (To His Face) And His Reactions:
– First time, she also supplies her name. He says nothing regarding wonder bread and says he likes her name.
– Second time she’s coming up to ask for his DS cord, Danny happily greets her.
– Third time she’s waking up and remembering their math lesson, Danny’s just creeped out Joyce is invading his personal space.
– Fourth, she’s saying hi at the party and asking if a seat is taken, Danny just tells her it’s free for the moment.
– Fifth, she’s asking him about whether he’s dating AG, he simply confirms he is.
– Sixth, when she tells him to stop enabling AG, he just looks sad hearing how close AG came to biting it.
– Seventh, she’s about to ask if he’s talked to AG, he just asks what she’s doing there.
– Eighth, after he told her to go away after AG dumped him, he’s glaring possibly because she brings up him talking to AG (not knowing he just did and got dumped over it).
If it really annoyed him, I’d think he’d have said so after Sal pointed out how dangerous being AG was and that he was enabling her, because that day he actually WAS mad at Sal, but he’s never objected to the nickname at all, at least not where Sal could hear him. What you’re asserting is not a thing that has ever happened.
* glaring PISSILY because she brings up him talking to AG. Damn you, autocorrect.
Also, glaring behind her back, so even if it were about the nickname, it’s not where she can see it.
She likes Danny, and it’s pretty clear she means it affectionately.
Besides, we have not once seen him object to being called that. If he had, but Sal kept calling him that, I would agree with you. But Danny has given her no reason to think he minds at all.
Again, yes we have. Why do you guys conveniently forget that?
Because we can’t find it? There aren’t that many Danny/Sal strips and a quick look didn’t see him objecting in any of them. Can you link?
Because it’s not a thing that’s happened, as a quick run through the sal+danny strips will attest. You’ve been asked for a link every time this argument comes up. Either supply one or knock it off.
Sal hasn’t given Malaya a demeaning nickname. If she was going to give anyone one, it would be her.
Or Jason.
Well Little cumstain might have been attempted but I think Malaya disagreed with it somewhat
Making up nicknames for people can, in some cases, be taken so far as to be bullying, but I don’t think this comes anywhere close to that level.
It’s not even as if Sal knows Amber’s actual name
Well that makes it all right to refer to amber as laundry girl then because as everyone knows laundry is just the coolest thing ever.
If you don’t know her name don’t call her anything, is it unreasonable for Sal to say something along the lines of “excuse me I’d like to talk to you” but nope she jumps in with laundry girl
You’re being ridiculous here. I can understand being irked by her doing this, but you’re acting like Sal kicked your dog.
Derogatory nick names is something thats always bugged me. I had a work colleague do it and wouldn’t stop until I dropped him witha shoulder block.
Growing up my father had plenty of nick names for me, the least worst being pickaninny so yeah i might be a little sensitive to nick names but what Sal does, to me, is a form of bullying
Have you ever heard of this little thing called projecting?
Don’t feel bad, loads of people in the comments section do it.
I have, I don’t and oh hell yes
Dude, c’mon, don’t be like that. It’s okay for mileage to vary on whether or not ‘laundry girl’ is derogatory. Chris doesn’t have to like it.
Its cool, this strip does bring out vigorous debate and thats a good thing
I don’t mind vigorous debate, but it seemed like Mr D was being a dick about this.
“…Mr D was being a dick…”
*muffled giggling*
I can see that.
I think Sal is intending for it to be a term of endearment, but “teasing nicknames” are always a bit of a gamble that can lead to some epically hurt feelings if you misjudge. And intentions don’t cure that.
And as you note, a lot of folks have bad experiences with “teasing” nicknames that are actually intended as put-downs or slurs.
If not a term of endearment, then a neutral nickname, yeah, is how I think Sal is considering it. She seems to do it with everyone.
Thats probably how I should have put it first
I was about to say “I don’t see how Laundry Girl could be a slur” but I can totally see how Laundry Girl could be a slur and now I’m very glad Amber isn’t Latina. Or French.
Then don’t say she’s “being ridiculous” if you think it’s okay for mileage to vary.
Sal does have a problem with using nicknames for people she doesn’t know and thinks poorly of.
That doesn’t mean she’s horrible. It’s just one of the things she does.
I definitely could have phrased that better. My point was merely that Chris’s reason seemed extreme compared to what Sal had actually done.
I can definitely understand how bad experiences with insulting nicknames would contribute to such a reaction, though.
isn’t ethan inside there, lmao?
He must’ve had class or something
Amber has devoured him.
he has gone on an expedition to traverse the depths of the safety cube
Soon he’ll pop up between Leslie’s couch cushions, wondering if he should have taken that left turn at Albacoikey.
This comment needs a like, or thumbs up, or some other way to express the awesome.
That works
yea amber that’s inconspicuous lmao
Sal heard you whispering to yourself and she thinks you’re weird.
Hey, Cerb, you know how you said that violence was a likely outcome?
Nah, everything’s great. Nothing to worry about…
Why must you and your Knights make everything worse?
Are they truly knights? Why was I not informed of this
Amber better hope no one on campus is a secret recruiter for some shadowy government agency, Sooner or later she’ll pull a stunt like this, they’ll see it, and they’ll be trying to recruit her as the next government super assassin.
OR they already have…
Coming soon, Dumbing O’Malley, when Dumbing of Age goes from Roomies! to It’s Walky!
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Nope, it’s…wait, where is she? Check again next week on “The Hunt For Laundry Girl (And Bigfoot, Because Hell, It’s Easier To Find).”
*cue end credits with blurry photos and the x-files theme*
(yay for amazi-girl being positive reinforcement, even if it’s not very effective?)
Is Ethan still in the privacy cube? Did she have that entire concersation in front of him?!
I’ve decided that until I’m told otherwise, Ethan IS in the cube but he hasn’t noticed anything because he’s too busy arguing with some internet troll about transformers on his phone.
I’m not sure she had that conversation out loud. For one thing, Sal could also have heard it. I think it might be a creative representation of internal dialogue.
Anyone else reading this like its a conversation between smeagal and golum?
That”s exactly the sort of vibe I got.
Her smartphone is (the precious).
So Sal is the Lois to Amber’s Clark, huh?
*WAGGLES EYEBROWS*
And every medium benefits from a good waaagh.
Maybe, but, where’s the red stripe?
Yeah all I took from this is that in AG’s metaphor Amber’s too scared to ask Sal out.
same honestly
I KNOW RIGHT
im screaming
sal’s not even joe chill, she’s friggin’ lois lane, badass reporter extraordinaire
Sorry, I can’t stop laughing at the last panel
Where is Dryer Lass when you need her?
At the cleaners, I guess.
^_^
Actually, I finally tumbled to the fact that Dryer Lass is usually too full of sheets to help …
You can see the lint in her eye.
This is reminding me of that scene in LOTR when Gollum’s arguing with himself.
That’s a hell of a chimney she’s pulling.
“Chimney” as a verb is a rock-climbing move that allows the ascent or descent of a wide crack or between two freestanding rocks.
Strong chair, too.
I gotta agree with both of these statements.
Amber is showing an unbelievable amount of physicality here for the semi-shut-in girl with a rather sedentary lifestyle she comes across as. For us in the audience we know about her alter’s activities but for Sal, and anyone else near enough to witness some of this, this is probably going to be a dead giveaway.
As for the chair, yeah that shouldn’t be able to stand up to that kind of abuse and still be able to be lifted into that position by anyone not on the WSM circuit. Judging by what we can reasonably presume of Amber’s height and mass (based on various factors I’m guessing 167cm and around 72kg) she should be ripping that chair apart in order to exert enough force to hold herself up there like that unless it has a fairly substantial bolted together steel frame inside, which in turn suggests it should weigh upwards of 200lbs. That she was able to move two of them into the proper position for the cube would then suggest her to be substantially stronger than one would expect which would itself be a potential giveaway of her alter too.
If she’s holding herself up by friction against vertical cloth, yes. But if there’s internal structure in the chair arm that she’s pushing against through whatever padding there is, it could require a lot less sideways force to keep her from falling.
I think Word of Willis says that physics takes a bit of a walkabout with a lot of Amber/AG’s stunts. See the car chase and her leaping onto a truck to escape Dorothy and Walky.
Cause she’s a superhero and gets to play by superhero tropes. 🙂
See also: Why does nobody recognize her?
i mean i kind of figure that amber does a lot of physical exercise to keep those muscles on the side. it doesn’t do wonders for keeping her cover as a semi-sedentary nerd girl, but that’s what you have to do to keep up your superhero identity.
idk with this one i go with “if they can do it in movies it’s semi-plausible here dude to visual language requirements”
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Waaagh!
LEZ GETEM LADZ
Warhammer Fantasy was better than 40k and End Times was stupid!! *runs from Age of Sigmar and 40k fans for dear life*
I’ve always prefered fantasy to 40k as well, but nearly everyone I know in person or online is more familiar with 40k.
That’s because of “Speez Marines”…and the universal hate Matt Ward gets for Mary Sueing the shit out of the Ultramarines, while simultaneously making everyone else worse in the expanded lore.
I’ll call your “Waaaaggghhh!” and raise you a “Ccccrrrrreeeeedddd!!”
‘Ere now, no nob gonna call a WAAAGH wit one boy. Need a proper 40 boyz a’ least.
That king of Waaagh! would be hella interesting in this setting.
*kind
A bunch of sweaty gamers bellowing at the top of their lungs and brandishing the orkiest random junk they had lying around tends to be interesting.
Sometimes it attracts the wrong kind of interest, though.
That’s a hell of a perspective on the last panel.
where did Amber learn these moves again? cause that’s a hell of a move
YouTube.
And comic books.
Oh, oh dear. The alters have gotten to the “Gollum and Smeagol” stage without “the precious” (unless Sal counts as “the precious” in such an allegory). Now I know that sounds like a joke, but I am being dead serious. AG is acting towards Amber more and more like how Gollum acted towards Smeagol. Withholding information, putting the blame on Amber, trying to act like the only person who really cares about her…it is just way too similar. And I may just be using the Gollum/Smeagol split because it was the first time I was exposed to anything resembling DID and it fits in with what little I know about DID.
…
Also, I would like to deeply apologize if I have offended anyone with DID with this comment. I admit to knowing very little about DID and probably not understanding it too a proper degree as a result. I have no intention of offending anyone with this comment and if I have said anything ignorant or hurtful please, please tell me. For other commenters’ sakes as well as my own.
Her eyes remind me of when Yzma and Kronk were locked in Pacha’s family’s closet.
Not a doctor or anything, but Amber’s thing pretty clearly isn’t DID for a lot of reasons. As both Amazi-Girl and Amber, she has access to all of her memories, episodic and procedural. Since they can talk to each other, which almost by definition means they’re not, well, dissociative.
Plus, narratively speaking, there’s Amber’s “two boxes” speech (and the fact that she’s wearing yellow and blue in both personas in that scene), the point of which is to show that no matter how she acts, Amber and Amazi-Girl are one and the same.
Anyway, I wouldn’t even say it’s necessarily pathological, just a way to cope that isn’t always healthy.
oh no, there’s no edit button so I can’t fix that grammar error up there! let my tale be a warning to all who don’t triple-check their posts. it is too late for me, friends; go not where I have been. farewell!
Untrue. You’re referring to a full split. Partially integrated folks with DID, as Amber likely has, can and do talk to each other and share memories and getting alters to do so is an important part of treating DID. Folks with DID have been talking about this for months in the comments.
I think both interpretations are valid.
If you think Amber has DID, you’re right. And if you think Amber/AG is a superhero dichotomy persona thing played for drama, I think you’re right too. At the least I feel like posters with DID have contributed too much for it to be completely off the table.
Like it’s not like with Ruth, where depression is so obviously there that it has to be canon whereas some people also interpret her as bipolar or with anti-social disorder, or how it took a long time to get a confirmation on where Dina was neurodivergent. Interpreting Amber in either way just leads to slightly different characters.
Being a superhero dichotomy played for drama doesn’t bother me, but it does bother me when people express misconceptions about DID.
I’m just glad no one’s tried to do the whole “yeah, I’m just going to discount your lived experiences in favor of some half-remembered ideas about the DSM” (the guide that still currently lists asexuality as a disorder (Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder), mind you) yet.
That’s the one that tends to bother me the most.
Like, I’m a person who’s lived the vast majority of my life with DID in a relationship with another person with DID and spent a considerable amount of time talking with other DID folks and researching what was available about the condition. I’m pretty sure I know what I’m talking about.
But Cerb, the DSM is a magic book that is perfect (despite needing an update every few years), not a collection made by flawed folks that can have mistakes in it! Didn’t you know that? I mean it’s not like it’s probably a good idea to corroborate with things like the ICD or something like the MCMI for personality disorders (because the DSM’s research on it is godawful) and checking out any community that exists for people who have these disorders to avoid making a complete ass of yourself, right?
Well duh, that’s just common sense!
As we all know, books spring out of thin air, perfect gifts from the ether. Things like icky flaws and bias don’t interfere in them, especially things like the DSM.
I would argue this feels pretty undeniable confirmation to me, but then I might have a bias on that one.
Yeah, that’s absolutely fair and I was hesitant because I was worried saying that would come off as trying take away from you. I just think it’s also worth acknowledging that some people without that lived experience might not see it in Amber’s character and that interpreting her otherwise is fin, and that if you hadn’t kindly shared your life experiences with us it might not have been accepted here either.
I very well might have not chosen to share this stuff. I’ve actually been making a more concerted effort to talk about this stuff after closeting it a bit for awhile in fear of it being used to invalidate my ace and trans identities.
So yeah, that definitely could have turned out to be the case here, which would have sucked, because that would have been super erasing and awful for DID readers of whom there have been a fair few who’ve popped up here and there.
I don’t know if you need to hear this from me, but nothing about you can ever be invalidated by choosing to talk about one particular aspect. Everything that makes up you is important.
Thanks. It’s still scary and hard to talk about this stuff as part of me is scared that any reveal will be what just gets me dismissed as “that crazy girl” about my life experiences.
And I hate that I feel that way, because when I was young and thought that this was the only thing that marked me as the other, I had so much pride in this aspect of myself and was much more open about it in my daily life.
Internalized ableism, right?
Honestly, eventually I should probably write a book with a DID major character, but I’m definitely scared of the additional discrimination that would stem from writing an ownvoices DID book and outing myself in that way under my actual name.
In my opinion as a professional writer* you should ensure that this character is as unique and groundbreaking as possible by
– Have their mental condition be the result of magic/sinister government experimentation.
– Give them superpowers.
– Make sure they die at the end.
*Note: Not a professional writer.
Realtalk though, I’d encourage you to try. Doing so could only enrich people’s lives and fight back against misconceptions and stereotypes. Plus writers go under pen names all the time.
Like Spencer says, pen names are a thing.
You could start your marketing campaign right here. I’d buy a copy. 🙂
When you say “could have turned out to be the case” are you saying I’m invalidating you? Am I being erasing and awful to DID readers?
I don’t know I just thought I was saying that it’s fine to interpret Amber in either direction because we’re likely not to get a concrete answer for a long time, if ever, and that some folks just don’t see DID in Amber’s character and as long as they aren’t like “no shut up you’re wrong” about it then there’s nothing wrong with that.
I’m so sorry
Oh no, you’re fine. Trust me.
My response was more about what you said could have happened if I hadn’t spoken up and someone else hadn’t spoken up in my stead. As you note, that would have been a really natural interpretation pathway for folks to go down, because cultural understanding of DID is pretty awful.
Building off of what you said, not tearing it down.
Well, I mean, I do think Amber is being written to favour both interpretations (and indeed I think it’s due to your efforts that “Amber has DID” has become written with that in mind) now. I think at first it was definitely “AG as a metaphor for superhero drama”, and now it’s both. It’s like what I mentioned about how some folks interpret Ruth as bipolar or with ASPD or how it took forever for Dina being on the spectrum to become canon.
IDK I’m just puking words at this point. I just wanted to say that people aren’t wrong to interpret her as non-DID, and that you’re not wrong to interpret her as DID (and indeed I’m super happy for you whenever you write your long posts about positive DID representation because it’s like me and how I feel about Danny and Sayid), and I don’t want to take that away from you.
I can see that.
And you’re good. What you said sounded respectful at least to me.
Thanks. I was actually really worried about trying to be as respectful as possible because, well…this is kind of hard to say but…about a week ago I mentioned that I was starting to have memory issues and getting confused, BBCC might remember that comment, and accidentally said some bi-erasure type remarks. My family, at least on my mother’s side as a history of Alzheimer’s, and at least two members from that side had early onset Alzheimer’s that started affecting them in their early thirties and I’m twenty-eight, so I was worried I might be showing signs of that. So I went to a doctor and got good news and bad news. Good news was that it wasn’t early onset Alzheimer’s. But the bad news was that, after a few tests, the doctor discovered that I’ve developed a case of hyperthyroidism, which messes with your metabolism, makes you feel alternately fatigued or energetic, and can cause confusion and a lack of focus. Then the bad news got worse, after another set of tests they found out the cause of the hyperthyroidism; a small cancerous tumor in my thyroid gland on the left side of my neck, that I hadn’t noticed before. So…now I’m going to be going in for surgery in July. I guess…what I’m trying to say, is that if the worst happens, I’m probably only going to be in here for a couple more months. I mean treated thyroid has a 95% five year survival rate, and a 70% ten year survival rate for men, but if the slimmest odds happen and I end up dead…well, I want to be as nice as I can, just in case. I don’t want anyone’s last memories of me to be angry or hateful ones.
Oh no! I hope everything goes well!
Oh my god! I’m so sorry to hear that and I hope all goes well.
Holy shit dude. That’s some enormous shit to deal with. You’re good, familia. You’re trying your best. You seem like a sweetheart.
Sorry to hear that, Rukduk. But don’t be too worried. Those odds are pretty darn good. And meanwhile, you should see a lot of improvement in your symptoms. The hyperthyroidism part, at least, is easily treatable these days.
Best of luck with your surgery and recovery. I hope you have excellent care in the horse-pistol.
I’m so glad it got detected and you’re getting it treated (fellow sufferer of thyroid malfunctions here and have been since I was 18). I’ll look for you in the comments so please keep posting updates as you get them. Hugs.
Oof, that’s not fun news at all. Good luck on your recovery
Remember that the people treating you are the most qualified people around.
Good luck. We’ll be seeing you soon.
Yikes. My mom had hyperthyroidism before I was born, and the doctor who treated her was either incompetent or didn’t care, so after some radiotherapy she ended up with HYPOthyroidism. Don’t worry, though, she’s got medication for that and she’s basically fine now, as long as she remembers to refill the prescription.
(And I don’t mention remembering to fill the prescription because of Alzheimer’s or anything, I mention it because my family on my mom’s side — and myself — are notoriously bad at keeping schedules)
A fun trick. What happens when Sal (probably quickly) figures out that a vanishing act from The Cube Of Solitude is impossible and she looks up?
From their relative positions and orientations, it looks like Amber is planning to release a fart on Sal.
Either that or a cloud of ink, thus enabling a clean getaway.
Fartothenorth is a different comic.
Aww. It’s “Far to the North”, not “Fart ‘o the North” :[
They never look up.
I guess making Amazi-Girl’s speech bubbles dark blue would blend in too well with the pitch black background. The eyes sorta help tell apart her from Amber.
AG’s distinctive feature is the lack of blush, which also doesn’t show up in this strip. Had to distinguish them somehow.
I also assume she only does the voice change when she’s trying to hide her identity. She didn’t do that when she broke up with Danny.
That’s true. Sal is familiar with AG enough that for Amber to use her voice would expose her immediately in such close and accessible quarters.
So which panels are supposed to be Amazi-Girl?
2 and 4 I believe
None of them. Amazi-girl’s voice is purple.
She’s gotta be some of them, since she’s tagged and Amber’s got the cheek circles in the last one.
There was a strip a little while ago where Amber was still Amber while talking in the blue bubbles, so it’s not always an indicator.
Also, Amazi-Girl’s first few appearances did not feature the blue bubbles at all. It only started once she began to see Danny on a regular basis.
I am also confused by this. I initially thought AG was panels 2 and 4, but in 1 she says she doesn’t want to hurt Sal, but it’s AG that hurts people, not Amber.
AG hurts bad people. Still remembers stabbing Sal right after the gas station store hold up during a complete nervous and mental breakdown, and is afraid that if she (Amber) is in control when they encounter Sal, she’ll end up doing something similar again.
Also AG is willing to stalk and harass people for petty shit, but that’s a thing AG’s blaming on Amber right now and not taking responsibility for.
I don’t like AG much right now.
“Golden alters”… they’re a trip.
According to their mythology, Amber’s the bad one. The one that hurts people. AG controls that and uses it to stop bad guys, but Amber’s the dangerous out of control one. It was Amber who stomped Blaine into the ground, for example.
This is largely bullshit of course, but they both buy into it.
I think it’s Panels 2 and 3 that are AmaziGirl.
The first thing I thought of was how bad I want a friend of mine to catch up who didn’t see proof of DID. The second was a frantic search for a comment by Cerberus. She must not be on yet because I didn’t find one, but I’m sincerely looking forward to it. If anybody can frame this comic, it’s her. Also literally frame it after having Willis sign it “You were right all along and here’s proof! Willis”
To my recollection Amber’s never had amnesia or fugue states, though, and that’s one of the criteria for DID.
That’s something can happen if the dissociation between alters gets really bad, but it’s not a criteria
Add to that what little I do know about DID is that the criteria can differ substantially, and some areas (like a large part of Europe) don’t recognize or diagnose it, and view it as an “American Disease”, which is the passive-aggressive way off saying that Americans are so stressed and repressed by their culture that they make up conditions in order to get drugs and attention which I say is a very condescending (and unprofessional) attitude.
Also silly because drugs aren’t a primary resource for treating DID if I understand correctly.
Yeah, I’m unaware of a single drug on the market that would actually do anything for DID. At best, you might get put on an anti-depressant/anti-anxiety for the other symptoms that tend to go with it, but those are hardly “big ticket” drug scores and are necessary for the depression and anxiety that frequently come hand-in-hand with the DID (especially if the DID stems from a traumatic life event).
But beyond that, no drug is going to make you anymore integrated or more civilly in communication with your other alters or help you build a safe environment for alters to express themselves without fear of harm. The only thing for that is therapy, time, or being a complete idiot of a child and integrating yourself on your own because you were scared that you would get locked up forever if you told anyone what was going on in your head and thus do a lot of harmful things that could have made things a million times worse before addressing and fixing them and only seek therapy years afterwards when things were more or less integrated and settled.
… not that I know anyone who did that or anything.
Admittedly, my knowledge on DID comes from you and a bit of reading on psychiatric disorders and their treatment, but I’ve found little to nothing regarding DID medication.
No medicine actually helps, it’s just that the European psychiatric community is very unwilling to acknowledge DID and think it’s over-stressed Americans trying to get attention by making themselves special. Which is victim blaming or at least damn close to it. I would also like to admit that most of what I know about DID initially came from Cerberus as well, and then I watched the movie “Split” and wanted to see how much was accurate about DID and how much (aside from the Beast’s superstrength, super strong skin, pain tolerance, and wall climbing abilities) was bullshit. Gotta admit, I’m really disappointed in the European psychiatric and psychological community after that. I mean when you have that many cases, and with a decent amount of evidence a large portion of the time, how can you deny something exists simply because it appears unique to one country?
Also – how can you say its unique to one country when you refuse to acknowledge it in any others?
That is disappointing. 🙁
And I have a strong eye roll for the “making themselves special” BS that seems to hit so many marginalized identity. Especially after seeing non-binary folks and ace folks get hit so regularly by that accusation as if anyone would sign up for marginalization and atypicality if they didn’t have to.
Like, you’d think the people saying this would stop for a second and go, oh, wait, these folks we think are making it up are suffering real consequences for their identity and have life experiences that would not occur without that identity. Maybe we’re being absolute assholes to folks with little to no social power.
BBCC- Yeah, seems pretty self-fulfilling.
We refuse to acknowledge this thing as real. Oh, hey, it’s only showing up officially in the countries that acknowledge this thing as real. Guess, that confirms we made the right choice. What’s that, person claiming this identity? No, that doesn’t sound like something that would happen here. You must be mistaken about your life experiences.
Something something ‘because you have to cause real consequences to make them stop their ‘delusions’ even though they harm nobody and are not dangerous to themselves or others, yadda yadda’.
So what happens to people with DID who move to a county outside the US? It’s a scary thought.
Oh and Cerb? I put off getting treatment for years too for my depression and suicidal ideation for the same reason. I figured they would throw me in the nut house and never let me out. Then I went for treatment and the med they gave me calmed down my depression, but it made the suicidal ideation worse. I hid the suicidal thoughts from my doctor because I didn’t want to go in a nut house… until I tried to OD and then the cat was kinda out of the bag and I was put in the WORST psychiatric hospital due to me being broke with no insurance. That was 3 days of hell. When I got out, instead of being supportive my dad told me if I fucked up like that again I would be committed (and that he had talked to a lawyer and he could have me locked up for good) and my SO at the time said if I got so much as depressed again he would leave me. Fast forward several years, I get off meds because he wants kids, I’d been off them months (and having a hard time with my depression but lying to doc again) when SO admitted that he only agreed because he thought I was sterile and he wanted the bigger house (3 bedroom really nice trailer that was 3x the price of a small no frills one), I called for help because I was barely stopping myself and knew I wouldn’t last long, I got help (from a place that was better than the first but extremely heavy handed with religion), and he took my house because he said he warned me. I still wish I had gotten help sooner, but I think that’s what everybody says after the fact.
Bluewind-
*hugs for you* and *angry deathglowers for your former partner*
And yeah, that fear of that cultural idea of “being locked up in the crazy house” is a really really poisonous part of our culture. And as you note, everyone who waits in fear of that, often ends up wishing they hadn’t.
I was able to more or less sort things out on my own, but it would have been so much easier with a trained and empathetic professional and might have helped me figure out my trans and ace stuff sooner as well.
Fucking tropes about psychiatric wards, man.
I’ve been starting work on a tv show meant to be educational (and hopefully entertaining) regarding how psychiatric facilities actually work, and holy christ the tropes are awful. Put it this way – “Damn you, Kesey” is a running gag in the show for a reason.
BBCC-
Yup! One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest was single-handedly responsible for me dodging therapy for nearly a decade. Like I get what it was protesting and why it was written, but it really fucked me up for the worst.
That’s exactly why Kesey was chosen for the running gaga. It was an important story at the time it was written and it’s still well written (ish) but it also codified a lot of harmful tropes in fiction and it still gets taught without putting it in historical context so it seems like current fact (or it gets taught with examples from modern abusive facilities without going into the good ones). I feel like, while it was important at the time, in the long run it’s done far more harm than good and it’s outstayed its welcome in the ‘literary must reads’ division.
Bluewind, I’m so sorry to hear what you had to go through! Hopefully, it will keep the record for the most difficult time of your life.
Pure speculation here – I wonder whether anyone has noticed any effects from antihistamines and/or Dramamine. If any, they’d be subtle, perhaps being a bit less likely to switch out of whatever alter was online.
I’m wondering because of a long flimsy chain of association, including a tenuous link between motion sickness and disorientation, and another tenuous link between disorientation and perceptual distortion, and a wild speculation about DID possibly involving some of the same mechanisms that sometimes cause perceptual distortion.
I have not noticed any effect when taking either.
no (and never tried dramamine), but anxiety can certainly make me dizzy and nauseous whenever it doesn’t get its way, and make it really hard to process sensory input. :/ I suspect countering that might have something to do with my chronic pain issues…
Hi Rukduk – where did you get this that DID is not recognized in Europe?
I just checked the German wikipedia, and it’s fully there:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissoziative_Identit%C3%A4tsst%C3%B6rung
Also, a friend’s mother is diagnosed with it (also in Germany).
Here’s the official criteria currently, from the DSM-5.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/dissociative-disorders/what-are-dissociative-disorders
I’m aware of that, but memory gaps also depends on the level of integration. The DSM is also flawed in many ways thus the reason a lot of therapists I know use it more as a guidebook than definitive ruling, with two I know using it just for insurance purposes. Mental illness is very nuanced which explains how 3 therapists can give the same pt 3 different dx. While I was in abnormal psychology in my 3rd year, I seen case studies given as many as 5 different dx, but never less than 2 with plenty of evidence to support your side and discredit the other and this was just words on paper! When I had to drop out (Hemiplegic Migraines) and later had to go to therapy myself, I got to experience the disagreement first hand. I went to several over the years. All said depression, but the first (doctorate) thought I has Asperger’s with OCD trait and PTSD, the second (masters) borderline personality disorder and panic attacks, the third (associate) that I seen for a month as I waited on a doctor to replace mine who had moved said bipolar (later I found it was just to put something on my record *eyeroll* ), and the fourth (doctorate) said OCD with panic attacks and anxiety issues. Out of all of them, the dx of MDD with OCD, PTSD (which is much milder than it use to be), and panic attacks feels the most correct, so I’m glad to finally get there, but it still was a convoluted mess to get to DSM wise.
Finally, we have someone who is a frequent commenter here who has openly admitted to having DID. Her diagnosis is also solid like my MDD diagnosis so there’s no chance of misdiagnosis. Since Cerberus has first hand experience with it, I think differing to her on the subject is best unless and until we have a doctor come in who has worked with multiple clients with DID.
Aw thanks.
And yeah, the field on DID is a bit of a mess. A lot of doctors who study it only want to study the “sexy” cases of full disassociation resulting from childhood trauma and so there’s a complete paucity of resources or information for folks like me who have spent most of their lives fairly well integrated.
And there’s a lot of cultural garbage, from Hollywood, but also from the Satanic Panic fucks who tried to use fake cases of “repressed memories” and child alters to fuel their various conspiracy theories.
But yeah, I’ve had DID since I was 5, and that’s been confirmed by at least 4 therapists, not that their say-so differently would have changed my life experiences. I’m pretty well acquainted with how it works at least for me and I’ve talked to a lot of other folks where I can about their DID experiences because that’s my general approach with all my minority experiences as many of them have a complete dearth of trustworthy academic research (like, the states of ace and trans research are an absolute disaster and most of the halfway decent ones just focus on bodies of research and bundling of life experiences already done by the communities themselves).
Welcome 🙂
I found out about how my various therapists thought of trans and ace individuals. Trans is just starting to get some acceptance from even them although it’s not uniform yet. Ace is even worse as it’s an even split between not a thing and actual disorder that needs treatment (one said that it wasn’t normal and something had to be wrong for it to even happen).
That’s really fascinating. I’m always curious about stuff like that but afraid to ask. I don’t want to overstep or the like which odds are I would knowing my big mouth XD
“one said that it wasn’t normal and something had to be wrong for it to even happen”
Wowww! I’m extremely grateful for the therapists I’ve seen where the worst I’ve gotten is “I don’t know too much about any of that”.
Definitely heard that from random assholes a bunch, but luckily never any therapists. Hopefully that one doesn’t end up having any ace clients.
And feel free to ask about stuff. I’m usually pretty open about talking about all my stuff and answering questions when folks have them.
Welcome to the south! 😉
Seriously though, my town is worse than a lot of them. Drive 45 min and you find a bigger town that’s more open with people shocked that I’m from here. In my town, everybody is nice and helpful. You can forget your purse on a table or in a buggy and 99% of the time it will still be there. Strangers will help you put your groceries in the car. That kind of stuff. But most local people aren’t okay with gay people and say so to their face or behind their backs. He sister use to cover her kids eyes if gay people were on tv. If you’re openly a liberal, you will catch a lot of crap from strangers with most of us being quiet to avoid it while they leave stuff at the grocery store checkout about how terrible Democrats are. Christian stuff and sayings decorate most businesses from my doctor to my bank to my oil chance place. Not going to church will get you lectured by strangers even if a normal person would know that the time was inappropriate (like when my dog was having surgery). Being an atheist will get you accused of being a satanist and one time I had a guy follow me to my car because he overheard I wasn’t a Christian (he was creepy mad and after yelling a bit just stood there and glared at me until I drove off). The majority of people are racist (blacks and whites are terrible against each other, but aren’t as hard on Hispanics in my personal experience). An unfortunate number of people are sexist ranging from mild to OH MY GOD! Too many people are the kind that would use a phrase like “extreme vetting” in a positive way although they seem to be against Muslims more than people coming from Mexico and the like. And I’m a polysexual liberal atheist. It’s no wonder people ask me where I’m from twice XD
I’ll wait until one day when I’m less sleepy and figure out a list of questions for you. 🙂
Whoops, I didn’t make it clear why I was posting that link — it was because somebody said fugue states and memory loss were required for the diagnosis. The poster could check the link to see that those aren’t required for the diagnosis; even if you just go by the current DSM, Amber/AG totally fits with DID (as Cerberus has been saying all along).
I meant to support Cerb’s argument, in a way that this poster would understand, not to negate or invalidate her lived experience. Sorry that I looked like I was doing the opposite!
Even aside from DID, doesn’t Amber seem to fit Derealization Disorder in some respects as well? Or am I misreading that?
Leorale- You’re good. 😀
Spencer- *shrugs* I’m not a trained psychologist nor am I nor do I know anyone with that condition, so I would not be qualified to say one way or another. But I’ll trust someone’s opinion on that who is more qualified to speak on it.
It took me a little while to figure out who was who, but I realized that it just alternates Amber/AG/Amber/AG/Amber… but I think part of what’s confusing is that AG is panel 4 looks up, and I previously thought it’d be like a Amber-looking-up-at-AG-for-help and AG-looking-down-to-Amber… Like even though they’re the same person they’d have different positions for clarity. Kinda like how Jekyll & Hyde are during the Confrontation?
Anyone else have thoughts?
The moral of the story is don’t claim four large pieces of library furniture for your personal exclusive use, jeeze.
False moral. They are not in the library.
I am really glad the worst I have ever experience was losing an argument with an imagined Joyce
They never look in the ceiling. Why don’t they ever look in the ceiling?
If 8 years of Team Fortress 2 has taught me anything, it’s that nobody ever looks up.
Not to mention Goldfinger and Serenity.
And Black Ops and Overwatch and Medal of Honor and Rust and
I’m sorta surprised the chair fort hasn’t come apart when Amber Spider-Man’d herself to the ceiling of the fort so quickly.
Laundry Girl, she’s a Laundry Girl!
Laundry Girl, she’s a Laundry Girl!
Okay fine, fer sure fer sure
She’ll get your whites all white
And the colors pure.
(doo doo DOO doo
doo doo DOO doo)
Laundry Grrl
That girl ain’t raht.
…Is there more of her than Amber and Amazi-girl? The conversation read like there’s another one at least.
Think someone way back in time said that Ambers rage mode was another alter.
Amber too OP please nerf.
I don’t even know what is going on with the chairs anymore.
As I understand, the chairfort isn’t actually a cube – it’s four chairs, two flipped over the other two.
Sal moving the chair like she’s doing makes me feel that Amber shouldn’t be able to be stuck up there though. Unless I’m seeing this the wrong way.
Comic Reactions:
Yes! We finally get to see an alter conversation, which is really good, because I was genuinely worried that AG had stopped communicating with Amber or had started hiding memories from her and it looks like neither is the case.
And that means recovery is going to be a lot easier than if the alters weren’t in communication with each other. But it is going to mean the two alters talking a lot more to figure out how to cope with the reality of their condition and make things a bit more integrated.
Also, woo, incontrovertible proof that this is in fact DID! Which means Amber/AG might be the first canon DID character who is not presented toxically stereotypically in webcomics, which is all sorts of awesome.
Panel 1: Oh Amber… It’s clear the blow-up she had with Danny (the one that was the Amber alter, not the one that was the AG alter) has hit her hard. Well, that and Mike’s little mind-games bullshit.
And so now Amber in the midst of a PTSD-fueled panic attack where she would not at all be to blame if she flailed out, is scared half-to-death of potentially hurting Sal, because that’s how she currently sees herself.
And cultural messages don’t help. Especially when you have DID. All the media out there sells the same story. The “dark alter” that makes the DID person a dangerous potential killer and abuser.
And it leads to a lot of bad coping strategies. I still remember when I was young and much like Amber/AG turned to some really bad coping strategies for handling my DID, being scared to death that my “anger alter” would have an “outburst” and so let that alter get abused and mistreated like she was an animal. And I hurt myself a lot in fear that I was just one bad turn from being a monster. That I needed to punish myself to protect others.
And it was all bullshit. I’ve never hurt anyone in anger, my anger alter was a critical part of my social justice instincts, and by fearing that outcome, believing it was inevitable, I allowed myself to get bullied into some abusive situations and nearly killed myself several times.
And I really want Amber to eventually get to a place where she no longer lives in fear that she’s some danger to others. Cause that’ll be a key part of her healing process.
Internet high fives! I KNEW you would love this strip! Anything to say to the people saying it’s still not DID because [reasons]?
I mean, it feels pretty done and settled when we have a full blown argument between alters directly addressing each other and I’d struggle to think of alternate explanations, but YMMV.
“incontrovertible proof that this is in fact DID!”
…the medical condition with a diagnostic criteria of “recurring amnesia”?
Amber has only the symptoms of DID that are popular on TV, lacks half the diagnostic criteria, and is strongly atypical in the purported symptoms she does show, or fails to show.
Cerberus, from what I’ve gathered from various other comments, is speaking from first-hand personal experience on the subject of DID.
Cerberus has experienced this.
In addition, Amber totes fits the current diagnostic criteria. Here’s the current DSM-5 in case you want to verify for yourself: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/dissociative-disorders/what-are-dissociative-disorders
“Symptoms of dissociative identity disorder (criteria for diagnosis) include:
[…] Ongoing gaps in memory about everyday events, personal information and/or past traumatic events.”
Memory trouble is a diagnostic criteria for DID, and Amber doesn’t appear to have that.
Cerberus is speaking from personal experience with DID, and even the DSM later mentions that those symptoms can be managed, though it goes into exactly zero details about how that is accomplished or what that even means.
I’m inclined to trust her over the DSM here.
I don’t think you understand how mental illnesses work. Not everyone experiences every symptom. I know this and I only took literally one class in high school and got a B.
(And also listened to Cerberus)
Oh, not everyone experiences every symptom, but memory trouble isn’t one of those symptoms that don’t matter to the diagnosis – it’s one of the symptoms that are required for the diagnosis. Someone who doesn’t have memory trouble cannot be properly diagnosed with DID, because the definition of DID is “multiple personalities and memory trouble”, not just multiple personalities. If Amber has a dissociative disorder, it has to be DDNOS or something.
We’re not even talking about Amber at this point. Cerberus has just explained how she knows DID from living it. You keep completely brushing that off like your armchair psychology degree somehow gives you greater credibility on the matter (it does not).
First of all, no. In mental health, few disorders have ‘you must have this’ so much as there’s a list of symptoms and after a certain number of matches, it’s a safe call to make (at least with personality disorders). Secondly, memory loss is a symptom of a full split – as in, the alters are not speaking, working together, or sharing memories. Amber, if she has DID, does not have a full split, she’d be partially integrated – as in, sharing memories and the alters are speaking, but they’re not working together and have no arrangement to co-exist. DID is not just full splits.
Not really.
It’s just the most focused on symptom, because non-integrated DID is the sexiest to study and so that’s where the majority of clinical attention gets paid. Because once we’re integrated we’re “normal” in the eyes of too much of the establishment.
What matters most is the alters for the diagnosis and for it to create issues that would not otherwise occur without the condition. Memory issues are a sign of poor or absent integration, often because the person with it is actively fighting one of their alters and is trying to cut it out.
It used to be a much more common part of DID, because old protocols were awful and about trying to “remove” the alters, which meant alters fought back and hid to avoid being attacked which means non-shared memories (memory gaps) and independent actions (what gets depicted in movies and TV, because it’s so visually striking).
I’ve been more or less integrated since I was 5. I’ve fucked with that and paid the price for it, but it’s meant lacking much in the way of gaps that I can discern, because everyone’s memory pools are more or less shared.
And the only times an alter demanded unilateral and independent action and did so, I was terrifyingly aware and present during it. Which was possibly the most terrifying life experience I’ve ever had and I’m counting being threatened by neo-nazis on that.
I have DID, that’s been confirmed by at least 4 different therapists and psychiatrists (current therapist, current psychiatrist, former temporary therapist, and previous long-term therapist). It’s an official part of my psychological diagnosis and my life experiences are such that quite a number of events that happened in my life would not have happened if I wasn’t DID.
Listen, I’ve spent over a quarter century living with this in me. It’s the vast majority of my life experiences. My fiancee also has DID. I’ve spent a long damn time talking with other DID folks about what they do and don’t experience. I’ve spent a long time researching the state of research on my condition, because I’m a nerd like that.
You may have been told in school that memory issues are “required”. But they’re not. The alters are required. Everything else is for determining severity and recommended treatment protocol.
I don’t mean to be brusque about this, but this is very much like someone coming up to me and going “all asexuals hate having sex, that’s required to be asexual” or “all trans people get surgery, if you don’t get surgery you’re not trans”. And it feels just as invalidating.
I’ve spent my whole life dealing with this shit. I know what I’m talking about. And I’m not overly enamored of being asked to beg for the right to be trusted on that, when it is a knowledge base built with time, effort, and a lot of pain.
Like, if you need me to bleed my life experiences more overtly, I can do that. But I feel that shouldn’t be necessary to be trusted as someone who knows what she is talking about.
Like, I’m a pretty analytical person (no, really, I’m sure it’s a shock to everyone), I’ve double-checked my transness, my aceness, my queerness. Do you really not think I haven’t double-checked this too?
This is actually pretty interesting. Do you know of any articles I could read that details all this stuff about memory loss only being present in non-integrated minds, the amnesia criterion being there only because it’s sexier to study that etc.?
DID sufferers finding a lack of resources about DID w/ integration:
https://faithallen.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/challenges-after-integration-from-dissociative-identity-disorder-did/
Scholarly article about continuum of experiences and lack of clinical studies regarding integrated DID folks (though still comes with a lot of author baggage including noting that DID people don’t all or typicaly view integration as the erasure of their personalities into one, but presenting that in the Conclusion as the “sign” of integration):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880957/
Critique of older model based on viewing integration as killing off personalities and bringing them all into one whole and presentation of the more commonly held model of a group working together to define one’s “integrated personality” (that is how my integration has always worked. Disparate, distinct alters with their own worldviews, emotions, and baggage, working together or fighting based on the circumstances) (also worth noting that for some people, the alters disappearing into the whole model of integration works really well for them and is their preferred method of describing their experiences):
https://www.discussingdissociation.com/2008/12/integration-a-requirement-for-did-therapy-or-not/
The first part of this interview has an after-interview note by DID subject noting that disassociative amnesia is not a universal DID experience (note she also talks about integration as the former alters coming into the whole model, which is what accurately describes her own recovery). She also notes two major clusters, but there are others beyond Possession and Amnesia:
http://mentalpod.com/archives/4028
A critique of integration as disappearance of former alters into a whole and promotion of integration as teamwork (which the author does not view as integration, but rather just teamwork. Personally I consider this integration for me as most of the time, my general personality is formed by the gestalt of this cooperation between the disparate alters and they work fairly smoothly with each other these days, even helping me do things like using dissociative states to better cope with abusive or toxic situations, my “analytical alter” and my “creativity alter” are key for this). Minor/major grievance, I dislike how harsh the author is to people for whom the integration as a folding in of former alters model works for them:
https://www.discussingdissociation.com/2012/05/integration-a-new-category-and-nine-quick-opinions/
And the sum total really paints a picture of how only the Dissociative Amnesiac patients get more clinical focus (and to be fair, that’s often because they need the most direct care) as well as the dueling models between the older and becoming less and less popular “integration as disappearing of alters into whole” model and the newer “integration as healthy cooperation by disparate alters” model, which has avoided one of the big hurdles that the first model hit of alters feeling attacked and hiding or fighting back.
Most of the integration by early model success cases I have spoken to have done so by retaining a lot of love and care for what they consider “former alters” and focus a lot of attention on recognizing their legacy as living inside their “whole” personality. Likely because that means the alter is less likely to rebel their “deaths”.
Eukie-
I currently have a post with a bunch of links stewing in moderation, but wanted to let you know of that so you didn’t think I’ve forgotten your request.
I wanna give a preemptive thanks for you amassing those. I’ve been interested in reading on DID but a lot of the research I’ve done has been vague and contradictory, so I’m excited to get my hands on these.
Oooh, links! Neat!
I do have a question – on the ‘former alters, new whole’ model, is that like the second model with the alters behind the scenes instead of consciously working together, are they functionally the same as someone without DID, or is it something else? Or is this something case by case?
Cerberus, discussingdissociation.com has turned into some sort of spam site 🙁 it wants me to give my email address for a “FREE Report”.
Halpful: that sounds like they’ve got an ad that’s hijacking the page. Try opening it again, or else turn on an ad blocker
Oh, nm, they’ve just got a in-page popup. Just hit the X at the top right of the thing and you’re good
thank you so much for all these articles!
In the “former alters, new whole” model, the idea is that the alters disappear into character aspects of one consistent permanent personality. So basically, you cease having the alters but their character quirks just become part of your consistent personality.
It’s tricky to make work, cause many alters see this as trying to kill them, especially if it’s set as “necessary” to be better. And as such has been becoming more and more unpopular in favor of the more committee model style.
But for some it works as a model and for the woman in that piece, she has a lot of love and respect for the former alters and what they bring to her personality and that’s a critical component of making that model work if it’s going to work for you.
But yeah, these days there is a growing more and more support for integration model that involves the more Inside Out style committee model (seriously, that movie was so critical for kids with various conditions, DID included) as it tends to have better and more lasting success more frequently and relies much less on retraumatization (yeah, that was a recommended thing not that long ago) and placing “being indistinguishable from a normative person” as the main end goal.
Which is why some of the articles were a bit… aggressive in their support for this newer model given some of the bad things that happened under the older model.
Fart Captor: …and then I click the X on the *second* popup (all this with adblock on, ugh). that’s fixed it (for now?), thanks! 🙂
Cerberus: omg, I was crying through all of Inside Out. I normally cry in disney movies, but that one, the whole thing from start to end. so many feels. And I learned things.
as for committee vs merging models (haven’t read the articles yet)… I like what I’ve seen of the Crystal Gems so far, where they can fuse and un-fuse again, so nothing is really destroyed. I’m wondering if it might be useful for me – my committee sorta lacks a good/continuous chair, and tends to devolve into bikeshedding or yelling.
Whee, new concepts to explore! 🙂
ooh, I just remembered a story with a sorta-DID-ish character that gave me a quote that helps me stabilise my mind (but I’ve lost it, so I’ll post again when I find that bit because I want the exact words)
It’s a naruto looper fanfic with Sakura as the main character, and very NSFW in some (..ok most) chapters, so probably not for everyone. but I loved it. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5193644/1/Time-Braid
Ah, so the goal there is set as ‘be indistinguishable to someone without DID.’ While I am glad it works for some, I can see how it easily doesn’t. I imagine this would have to be a decision by the former alters to make this work otherwise they may disintegrate again?
Ack, sorry, that time braid link, chapter 4 TW: torture. I’d forgotten about that.
Halpful-
Ooh, I like the fusion metaphor. Especially since I have moments where two or three work extremely closely together to complete a task that definitely feels very Crystal Gem temporary fusion like.
Also *DID fistbump*
BBCC-
Yup. If it’s externally forced it tends to fall apart and the system tends to be shitty to folks who “integrate” under that system but then refragment as they are often framed as failures rather than folks for whom that model of integration doesn’t work.
And apparently refragmentation of that model of integration tends to be fairly high. It’s definitely something that works for some, but there’s a reason general protocol has been drifting more and more away from that being the dominant model of integration.
“I’m just glad no one’s tried to do the whole “yeah, I’m just going to discount your lived experiences in favor of some half-remembered ideas about the DSM” (the guide that still currently lists asexuality as a disorder (Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder), mind you) yet.”
:c
Eukie, I’ve been living with this condition since at least when I was 5. Please trust me that I know what I’m talking about with regards to what and what is not required for DID.
Panel 2: It’s remarkable to realize just how bad AG is at comforting Amber and how scenes like this reveal the falsehood of AG’s central mythology that she is the benevolent protector of the Amber alter.
Like, Amber is in a full PTSD-fueled panic attack (though remarkably better than before given that she hasn’t completely become subverbal this time) and is scared to death that she’s going to hurt someone in her trauma response.
And AG’s response to that is to berate her and put even more focus on the things that would make Amber even more likely to panic.
Like, fuck, I can’t imagine saying to anyone freaking out, “yeah, you are cornered and trapped in a situation that is causing you great pain, well, whatever, the important thing is how this might impact me.”
And yet, when the chips are down, that’s what AG values. Not doing right by another, not being kind, but instead focusing on herself and doing a similar berating thing to what Blaine said to her before she stabbed Sal.
She’s not the golden alter she’s selling herself as. But maybe in dropping the voice for a moment, she’s starting to see the similarities between them instead of maintaining this artificial divide.
Panel 3: Yes, this moment is huge! Why? Because it’s Amber calling out AG on what she perceives to be a mistake.
Like, every scene we’ve seen before, the Amber alter has deferred to the mythology that AG has set. That AG is the golden alter, that she is the mass of pain and damage and potential darkness. And that it was never her place to critique or negatively judge AG’s actions.
But here, she calls out AG’s actions. And does so in a way that also notes AG’s hypocrisy in attacking her in Panel 2. Like, favoring her closet to Amber’s mental health when she did so much to already damage the closet and heavily hint things when hanging with Sal (like how her alter ego was a techie, letting Sal track her phone, which could have led her straight to Amber).
And it’s especially hypocritical when AG left Amber holding the bag on her handling of the Danny situation and yet isn’t willing to help bail her out of this situation.
Also… um… is Amber suggesting that AG has a crush on Sal here?
Cause that would be interesting if Amber/AG turned out to be bi, especially as it would be a slow burn from the Shortpacked! strip where AU-Amber proposed a foursome with Mike, Ethan, and Dina.
Also, um, Amber, it depends on the universe, but a bunch of Superman comics have Superman fully out to Lois about his dual identities.
So I’m just gonna point out that there was a time when Sal said something along the lines of “why do you hate me so much” and AG responded with something like “I don’t hate you, never you”
At the time the line seemed REALLY weird to me (I’ll go hunt it down after typing this). I eventually concluded that AG’s hatred and obsession with Sal was hatred of herself and whatnot. But this strip brings back one of the random thoughts that I had back then of there being a crush or a love/hate thing going on. I quickly discarded it as ridiculous then but now….. well it’s back on the table at least
Yeah, the metaphor seems conspicuously chosen. It might be a red herring, but Willis has been known to sprinkle hints about this stuff before.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/tuckandroll/
the strip in question
Hate-crushes are a thing. When you’ve got so much repressed shit and self-hatred, it’s easy to focus an obsession on someone else instead of looking inward.
i mean like at least part of why amber stabbed sal in the first place was blaine goading her to do something about being so vulnerable
she has to know that sal didn’t deserve it, like she didn’t deserve any of blaine’s treatment of her
so the fact that sal’s grown up from that kid who held her up in a gas station to someone with a leather jacket, a motorcycle, and most of her shit together has to be…..
well i mean we all know it’s real attractive but now we know that amber knows
It’s interesting that Amber goes straight to Lois as metaphor Sal. Not Luthor, not Zod, not even someone less-villianous-but-still-influential like Perry White or Sam Lane. Nope, straight to the love interest. The love interest that Amber would know perfectly well knows Superman’s identity in probably about as many storylines as not.
Yeah, it’s a really interesting metaphor, because as you say, a villain or someone more antagonist would feel like the more natural metaphor, but she went with the love interest instead and I feel that’s likely intentional.
Can the various personae of a DID sufferer have different sexual orientations? For example, could Amazi-Girl be a lesbian/bi whilst Amber is straight? I’m just wondering if Willis is planning the romantic triangle from Hell.
I’ve known folks who’ve had that experience. My fiancee says that that makes it hard to have a clear idea of their orientation because different alters have different inputs on that so it creates a pretty fluid grey-ace mess.
Gender identity can also sometimes differ between alters as well. Like, I’m always a bit scared of talking about this, because I don’t want my gender identity erased by this (though I have been side-eyeing the demigirl label a bit more these days), but of my main four alters, two are women and two identify as non-binary/agender. And one of my alters is a little bit more aromantic than the others though not enough for me to consider myself arospec.
Romantic and sexual orientation is pretty well consistent at least for me, though. Asexual throughout and queer-romantic for the majority.
Cerberus, yeah we have a variety of gender identities too. I am a man and our host and our body is female, we have a trans woman, men, women, little girls, ana fair number of nonhumans.
BenRG, in my personal experience, yes, everyone can have different orientations. I am pansexual and the others are straight, bi, asexual, gay, and for some they aren’t sure.
*DID high-five*
*DID high-dive returned* You know, based on your posts I’ve seen, we have a lot in common, both trans (though for me it’s a medical label and not part of how I id), both have a partner who also has DID (in my case another man), have reached communication with others in our headspace, though I am poly fragmented so I still have a lot more people to get to know, and both come from crappy homes. It’s nice to know my situation and combination of experiences isn’t as odd as I had thought. It’s hard when you feel like the odd one out, so I’m glad to know I’m not alone.
It really is. 😀
Knowing others who have been through the same stuff has been critical for me as I have a lot of marginalized identities that made me beat myself up a lot growing up about being “wrong”.
It’s one of my favorite things about my dynamic with my fiancee. I don’t really have to do much 101 stuff about the trans, ace, or DID, because they’ve experienced it all first hand.
Yeah, it’s really nice. My husband understands a lot too because we’re both pansexual and both have DID. Also, because most of his head mates are female or gender fluid he could grasp my gender being different from my body. Interestingly, neither he nor I knew about having DID when we met, we both received diagnosis about a year apart, first me then him, when we’d been together 2 years. We both laugh about it now because many of our respective head mates met before either of us knew they were there or more accurately remembered they were there since we knew as kids and then barriers slammed down hard as we got older and we forgot.
So why isn’t AG talking in her own voice? Was that faded out or something? I don’t remember.
AG doesn’t do that all the time. She only started it up when she started hanging out with Danny.
It’s a deliberate affectation that Amber puts on to mask her identity and she doesn’t do it when she doesn’t feel the need to.
The voice is a deliberate and conscious effort to hide her identity, rather than a signature manifestation of the separate identity the way her cheek color is.
…. at least it started out that way. I kinda wonder if it’s slowly getting incorporated.
It is a conscious effort to put the voice on rather than being a set indicator of who is in control. Due to Sal’s closeness to her location, she isn’t putting it on because it would give away rather than hide her identity.
Panel 4: AG is so bad at hearing what Amber is actually saying and that really gets hammered home here. Like, every Amber line is in response to things AG is saying and takes those into account, bringing up pieces of their shared memories. But AG just barrels ahead on her own path, not really responding to any of the actual concerns or fears that Amber has.
Like, Amber is not worried about whether or not Sal is a great person, fuck, she used a metaphor based on two people who are in love with each other to describe AG and Sal’s dynamic. She’s upset that AG is blaming her for potentially “outing” her when she nearly outed her to Sal. And she’s worried that she’ll hurt Sal in her panic state.
But for AG, she dumped all of her creepy behavior towards Sal onto Amber and so now gets to “heroically defend” Sal from Amber’s inability to see the good in Sal (a good that AG openly refused to see until she literally became the symbol of white nationalist anger to a crowd of racists).
And she says that Sal won’t hurt her or Ethan… which was a concern Amber had when she was at the corner store or maybe a few weeks ago when she was scared of bumping into her. But that’s not anywhere near the concerns Amber’s listed now.
And so her suggestion to take a deep breath just feels condescending because she’s just responding to her idea of what Amber is like rather than what Amber is actually saying. But who knows, maybe the eyes reveal that Amber speaking back in her defense is making the first mark in changing that dynamic. I dunno, I’m an optimist.
Panel 5: Yup, this is definitely feeling like Sal wants a few words about what went down with Danny, which just makes AG’s deference and prioritization of her superhero closet all the more upsetting. Like, this is one more fallout caused by AG, but once again, AG is expecting Amber to clean up her mess for her.
And poor Amber is being stretched to her limits given that conversation or no, she’s still in a PTSD panic attack.
Panel 6: Huh, apparently Amber/AG is Sam Fisher.
Though that’s only going to delay the meeting at best.
“AG acts like a responsibility dodging butthole to Amber Part 5000”.
No, that can’t be right. AG is the “golden alter”. She’d never do anything hurtful like that cause that’d be wrong.
Clearly she cares about *checks smudged writing on hand* Amster.
Well of COURSE she cares about Amster!
….Amster is Dina’s badly socialized pet hamster, right?
*stares for an uncomfortably long time at the smudge marks*
I’m going to go with… yes?
I mena Becky said ‘Ambster the Hamster’ one time, so that must be it.
Amber/AG seem to me more like River Tam: traumatized, damaged, brilliant, inscrutable and unpredictable, with unexpected capabilities — but trying to do the right thing, deep down.
Even if she can’t help pushing some people sometimes. “I could kill you with my brain.“
Cerberus, I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while, and now seems like a good time (well maybe I’m asking too late today and you won’t see this…) . Um, how would a person know that they have DID? Like, would it be very clear to themselves that they have alters? Ok, I’m asking cuz I think there’s a tiny chance I might have that…
(shit, I keep writing more stuff but I’m pretty confused about it, so I’ll just ask the above cuz at least that makes sense)
V-
*supportive hug*
It depends on the person. For me, it was very clear and unmistakable, but other people have much subtler interactions with their alters (internal arguments, rapid shifts behind personas, etc…). Plus, we’re very good at a species at ignoring all the signs of something that is retroactively obvious (the self-denials I used by the end to avoid the truth of being trans were laughable in retrospect).
I think most of all, it is worth being kind to yourself. Whether you are DID or you are not, something is going on with you that is moving you to ask that question and that is ok.
And whatever it is, is a part of you and does not detract from how awesome and good you are. And it is also okay to be confused and searching for the right words to describe an experience or a condition. Bob knows I’ve spent my time doing that.
But if you’ve been thinking about it for awhile and it’s an idea that keeps coming up, that might be a sign in and of itself. Certainly it worked that way for me regarding my gender and sexuality. If stuff I’m talking about with regards to my life experiences on this are resonating, that might also be a sign. Note with all of this, that this is just might.
If you want a more private space to talk about some of this stuff, my safe email address is cerberussadlyno AT gmail DOT com.
And *hugs* I support you no matter what!
Wow! This is turning into Gollum’s little internal debates!
*cranks up Mission Impossible theme*
Nah, brah. You keep pulling off those sick acrobatic moves. She’ll never figure it out.
“Ah wonder why these two short, brunette, acrobatic girls keep being weird around me. Must be something in the water.”
“Gonna hafta ask Marcie ’bout that if ah get a chance.”
“Marcie, am I hot to short, brunette athletic girls? What? No, ah’m not hitting on ya.”
You win. I laughed.
“S’just they keep weirdin’ out around me an’ ah dunno what else it could be. What? Ah am NOT tryin’ to replace you!”
Lois Lane? Not Lex Luther, but Lois Lane? Huh.
Eh. Sure, why not. Sal/Amber. Its not the most fucked up ship I’ve seen.
It tells you something about how Amazi-Girl has started viewing Sal. Although, frankly, viewing her as the Black Canary to her Huntress would be a more precise comparison.
Vivian.
I would have liked this a lot better if there were some clear indication who was who without having to parse what they are saying and think who would be saying which one.
He could draw both eyes differently and keep that idea of having the bubbles come out of only the eye representing the personality.
Also, it would make a whole lot more sense if these were thought bubbles–unless the intent is that someone can actually hear her.
I think that you can generally tell from the eyes. If he gives the eyes a sclera, then it’s Amazi-Girl. If it’s just a dot in the centre of the lens of the glasses, then it’s Amber.
What, you mean Willis actually made you have to think about what you were reading? Horrors!
Huh, I completely misread the tone of that penultimate panel. Even with context, I automatically interpreted “WAAAAGH!” as aggression instead of panic like I would a “WAAAUGH!” Funny how habits form.
Amber/AG are not orcs, and they would not move faster if their uniform were red.
But would they be invisible if they started wearing purple?
Now it will be interesting to see if Sal thinks to look up. In my experience, this is simply something that, instinctively, humans won’t do when looking for fellow members of their species.
I mean, to be fair, why WOULD WE? Most humans aren’t that acrobatic.
If Sal doesn’t look up she’s going to be very confused, since she’d have to conclude that Laundry Girl vanished into thin air.
It would probably be more comedic if Amber lost her grip and fell on Sal. Two untangled sets of limbs and embarrassed apologies later, Amber will be trying to remember why she was scared and Sal will be trying to remember why she’s angry.
Or she bulldozes the whole shebang!
Humans generally have had no good reason to evolve a “look up” instinct. We’ve evolved (mostly) in open spaces, and there’s nothing big enough in the sky to hunt us.
Taking away her privacy chair is worthy of death. I’m sorry, Sal, but anyone who tried to do that to me would be six feet under.
Privacy Chair 4 Life (in prison).
AG is abusive to Amber. She blames Amber for her blunders… You know, that’s like having an horrible roomate that just refuses to really cooperate in the house, and you’re just stuck with him/her. Amber will have to decide one day in the future : a heartfelt thank you alongside with a note of eviction would be best.
Except they are stuck. There’s no eviction. They have to figure out how to work together.
Yeah, that’s the thing about alters. They are you so there’s no getting rid of them. Even if they’ve done terrible things to the other alters, it’s on everyone to find a way to coexist and build a healthy cooperative dynamic.
Welp, this pretty much clinches it.
“They” are talking to each other and using plural pronouns…
Yup. Which means intentional canon DID representation.
Which is really really awesome.
dude… she really needs to sue her shrink…
I think that she never had a shrink. Her dad decided no therapy, fighting classes instead. Not sure if I’m remembering correctly.
This is correct.
Ok, I’m officially impressed!
Typically, chairs like that have relatively soft sides with a degree of cushioning, so clinging like Amber is doing is VERY difficult at best. But she seems to be pulling it off with little effort!
Again, impressive!
I want to spitball a hypothetical scenario with all of you. What if, (and I stress the word if IF) Amber never stabbed Sal? What if the schism between AG and Amber developed not because felt guilty for the way she acted after Ethan was held hostage in the convenience store by Sal, but because Amber neglected to react at all? What if AG’s personality manifested itself as an atonement for the fact that Amber not only witnessed this awful robbery attempt and failed to act, but all of this violence and anger and rage is all in Amber’s mind? Maybe the stabbing of Sal is an impulse that Amber wishes she could act on, and so AG was created out of the need to satisfy Amber’s more bestial–albeit repressed– instincts.
The problem lies therein the fact that Amber and AG can no longer tell the difference between fantasy and reality and the two universes that she dwells in are starting to bleed unto themselves. And thus everyone she comes into contact with at the University doesn’t actually know why amber acts the way she does and that is why everyone she knows has a different opinion of her. Danny sees Amber as a victim and AG as a Hero. Dina and Dorothy see Amber as misunderstood and AG as a hero. And Ethan sees Amber as someone who is tortured as has an selfish need to lash out at the world. Sal has no memory of Amber even though this robbery attempt only happened only 5 years ago but AG as a friend. Blake constantly berates Amber for never being strong enough and Joyce sees amber as a trouble woman who flipped over a table in the commesary and punched out her abusive father in the dormitory. Billie on the other hand just sees Amazi-girl as a local urban legend and she treats Amber as someone who is basically a nobody in the most literal sense. Amber isn’t even on Billies radar whatsoever.
So that is my theory. AG is basically Amber’s psychosomatic response to the fact that she was too afraid to lash out at her tormentor and so she found a way to cope with the guilt that manifested from that.
Any such theory would have to explain why Sal never removes her gloves and has on occasion (especially when under social stress) been seen rubbing at the point where Amber stabbed her.
But wouldn’t being stabbed by Amber be such a traumatic event that Sal would unlikely ever forget the face of the person who did that to her?
I’m not sure Sal ever clearly saw Amber’s face at the time. Amber was hiding for most of the incident, and the actual stabbing was by surprise from behind.
That only works if Sal saw her face. Amber was hiding during the robbery, and came up from behind her to stab her and her eyes were clenched shut because fucking OW afterwards. Presumably she was busy screaming, possibly crying, and panicking because jesus christ, a knife just went through her hand (and word of the PDFs was through, not in, so it looks like she’d have a hole all the way through and probably heavy bleeding, if not broken bone, fucked up nerves, muscle, tendons, etc.). I think Sal was a bit busy to memorize her face. Also, Amber didn’t recognize Sal immediately the first time she was in a room with her. It was only when she saw Sal in a similar outfit that the pieces came together.
also like it was…ten or so years ago. they’ve all grown up a lot since then. it might have been more traumatic for amber than for sal, idk. sometimes being the victim vs. being the perpetrator works like that. and sal had a lot more shit happen after she got arrested to be traumatized by.
Five years. Sal was 13, she’s 18 now.
my b, thanks, all i could remember was that they were short
And adorable! 😀
so um @ people who still insist that Amber is just roleplaying and doesn’t actually have DID
yeah
Given the emphasis Sal puts on Amber “getting out here and talk to me” I think Cerberus was right that Sal’s doing this for Danny.
Oh huh, I just remembered that Mike’s slipshine partner is the same guy who banged Mary back in Roomies!. We got another bi dude in the cast.
Actually, has Sayid been given a canon sexual identity yet? I don’t know if I missed out on that.
I don’t think he’s been confirmed as to exact sexuality yet other than at least liking guys and at least being interested in sex to some degree or another.
Eric is a sexbot. It is his prime directive to give people sexual pleasure in the most efficient manner possible. It does not matter to Eric who or what they are.
I’m half hoping Sal flips open the chair which Amber is perched in just to see if she holds that position the whole trip down. Granted, I know it would end in horror, but but it would still be interesting.
….Damn that reference. Now I ship it.
Oh amber…
All I wanna do
is see you turn into
a giant woman (a giant woman)
(I watched the second fusion episode today, but it was the first that reminded me of my own internal conflict. … and now I know where Dance Dance Authentication comes from. 😉
(also, this DID discussion has made it easier to understand how I can be super-happy with my Becky avatar while also sad that it’s not the Dina avatar. someone needs to draw a Gem Fusion of those two 😉
So Becky’s height, hair, freckles, and plaid coupled with Dina’s skin tone, facial structure and hat? That’s…that’s what I’m picturing in my head at least and it’s um is it hot in here?
“does superman tell lois lane” WHY is THAT the first comparison your brain makes, amber
-holds up a huge magnifying glass in order to expose The Gay-
on this note this makes the danny thing a lot more interesting because like:
amber gets a crush, they go out, amazi-girl breaks them up because of the threat to her identity. meanwhile amazi-girl is growing a crush on sal. and it’s not like it’s something amazi-girl seems to be interested in in general but like i’m sure it’s hard for amazi-girl to find people who share her interests.
and i mean there was….a legit triangle going on with danny, where amber and amazi-girl made danny choose whether to go out with amber or amazi-girl. and he chose amber, which was great for amber, but had to have left amazi-girl with so many conflicted feelings. and it’s probably not like amazi-girl can just tune out while amber and danny were with each other? if they were roommates, that’d be tough; as headmates, that has got to be even tougher.
MEANWHILE, the laundry girl nickname is giving me all sorts of fun flashbacks to dr. horrible’s video blog and penny, who deserved absolutely none of her fate and stands out as, like. the actual person doing the most good in the world of the cast.
Actually he chose Amazi-girl, so that was… fun.
frick i really need to reread this webcomic
but where is the TIME