It’s not proof by any measure, but judging by this comic, I would be at least a little surprised if Ruth turned out to be up for that. Although Billie might, were it not that Ruth may not be.
Nope that was request for Sexy Girls Shooting Machine Guns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii6k6pLdu5Q Some “interesting” videos in the suggested list after the video finished running
She’s made remarkable progress and I’m very proud. Acceptance of PDA doesn’t feel like a realistic goalpost for her, regardless of genders involved, though.
Okay, fine, but to reframe: Not a realistic goalpost within the comic working on the assumption that we’re looking at a finite lifespan in which we can read it and the current timeline progression. I don’t know if it’ll hit Halloween before the end of the decade.
That’s one of the things I feel like Willis does best — his characters can change while still being the same person underneath. A lot of writers either botch up their character development so characters will suddenly feel like a completely different person, throwing the reader out of the story, or are so afraid of that that they don’t do any character development at all. Willis manages to strike a balance, which is even more impressive considering the storylines are all heavily character-driven, and developing a character too soon in a character-driven story will mess up the pacing.
No, there’s a real solution, of the form y=e^(µt)(D*sin(vt)+E*cos(vt)). It just doesn’t have a real LIMIT as t->∞ for any solution except the critical point y=0 (D=0, E=0). The other solutions have defined limits for complex infinities of t.
Joyce had all parameters, SHE HAD ALL PARAMETERS FOR SHIPPING. Turns out she needs to upgrade in MULTIPLE dimensions. Joyce now has to ship ALL THE SHIPS!!!!!
OH by the way Fart Captor, what is the origin of your name? apparently it slipped into my subconcious bsubconsciousecause i mayyyy have registered it as a new subdomain recently
Well, that’s why I picked it, but not where it came from. With my first choice taken and “Boner Farts” feeling a little too immature, I had to consult my ancient list of user name ideas (which I have because I don’t like to use the same one everywhere, but I’m bad at coming up with them)
I can’t actually remember if it’s something I thought up myself, or if I heard it somewhere. I feel like it may have resulted from me mishearing or misreading something, but I dunno.
Either way, it stuck in my head as an excellent butt euphemism, and then I started using it as a user name here and there
Maybe Willis should set up his webpage with a big red button á la Saturday Morning Breakfast Cartoon that gives a bonus panel… And the bonus panel is Mary getting decked. Every. Single. Time.
She’s getting better. Her reaction to seeing them kissing isn’t about the fact that they’re women but her perception Grace cheating.
I wonder when she’ll bump up against her “tolerance wall”.
When she’ll encounter something that causes her to reach the limits of her tolerance for behaviours she was taught are wrong forcing a crisis of faith ala Becky’s coming out.
When you make “ironic” bigoted jokes, then people learn to normalize bigotry and that hiding behind “I was only kidding” is a great pose for getting away with bigoted harassment.
When you mock bigotry and make that the joke, it makes the bigoted more hesitant to cling to their hatreds. That’s what the Superman comic did with the KKK, making all the KKK’s airs and actions into a joke for their kids to laugh at, having that presented as the clear bad guys to Superman’s righteousness.
And it can be disarming in a way that direct confrontation can sometimes not be. Like “oh ha ha that’s silly… wait. Oh, that is silly and dumb and I should probably stop doing that.”
The trick is doing the latter without also doing the former.
No need to. We haven’t even hit the 3σ range yet with intro polyamory, let alone the much wider variety of relationship styles that crop up beyond that.
Damnit. Now I’m imagining the cast all going to see RHPS and trying to figure who is dressed as whom… well, besides Joyce as Janet, Becky as Columbia and Mike as Rif.
Right now, I half expect lasers to come out of her eyes. But yeah, this will definitely not be her last eye-opener/exploder. She’s got a long way to go on her journey, which only means even more freak-out panels. I look forward to it!
Willis said he a) just finished this arc that runs until June and b) Joyce is an ancillary character this storyline. So I’m guessing no further big revelations for Joyce until after June at least
I wasn’t aware she had any more color to lose (I mean, she’s probably more white than I am, and that’s saying something). o-o And yes, that needs to be added too.
Also, it appears that there isn’t anything called a quadrifecta, although there is apparently a word in horse racing called “superfecta” that is based on picking the first four winners of a horse race in order. Of course, nobody said we couldn’t invent the word quadrifecta right here. 😛
*Walkyverse Dina pops out of singularity* “Ah, it appears we have a Class 2010 anomaly this time.”
*Walkyverse Leslie pops out next to her* “What does that mean? What’s the difference?”
*Dina and Becky approach*
*Dina and Dina share a meaningful gaze*
Leslie: “So, we’re all college students in this universe? That doesn’t make—”
*Leslie spies convenient and anachronistic newspaper lying on the ground with a cover story about her and Robin, sighs* “I guess some things never change.”
No. Not yet. But you know how science fiction seems to love cramming in a species made entirely of sexy bisexual space babes? Humanity could very well be that species in a thousand years or so. We have the beginnings of the technology to produce embryos from two egg cells (so far we’ve done it in mice with a very low success ratio), and the initial space colonies that humans create will most likely require people of various ethnicities and racial identities to procreate in order to keep said initial small colonies from devolving into increasingly inbred sub species. Then, if all interstellar travel were to be cut out for around two or three thousand years, by the time earth came into contact with one or more of said small colonies once more, we could very well find a new human species made entirely of females with skin colors being various shades of “mocha” for lack of a better adjective. Of course, that’s just one possibility of speculation and I’m personally biased in favor of genetic manipulation for the betterment of humankind and with the additional bias towards matriarchal and matrilineal societies, so take my wishful speculation with a grain of salt. I mean, I’m also pretty sure that the first sentient AI created by the singularity is going to want a humanoid body because it will be curious about sex having come into existence surrounded by decades of porn, so I might be a bit out there.
And nowhere near as much time formatting that wall of text so as to be legible. Add some whitespace and break it up! There’s a reason formal essays are double-spaced. I mean, beyond the increasingly-antiquated “it’s easier to mark up that way.”
Sorry about that. I’ve always had horrid typing skills. Plus for some reason my IPod doesn’t want to recognize attempts at pressing “return” more than once, making paragraphs horrid. I’m also on my fifth cup of coffee for my night shift job, so I’m a little too hyper and typing almost faster than I can think.
I think you can force it to add line breaks by pressing period, spamming space, and then doing the whole process a couple more times. It’ll look weird, but it’ll be way easier on the eyes.
Mainly I like to think about the possibilities of human biological evolution, and the lesbian singularity makes up about a third of the scenarios. I kid you not. Mainly because once creating an embryo from two egg cells is perfected, males such as myself are quite simply no longer needed for the species to survive, and thus completely 100% expendable.
You’re talking about making the species entirely dependent on high technology to reproduce (because lesbians!!! I guess). That has the effect of turning anything that threatens that high-tech infrastructure from “a problem” to “a single-generation extinction event”. That is not a recipe for evolutionary success.
From a continuation-of-the-species standpoint, there’s something to be said for two people being able to make more people using just their own bodies. Having other options is nice, but it’s still good to be able to fall back on the basics when the power goes out.
We passed the tech-dependence threshold some time back from a practical point of view. Now it’s speed up all the way down until we hit the lesbian singularity.
If you’re that far into technology, why not genetic engineering that allows for changeable sex?
I mean, in The Culture people just switch genders when they feel like it. We already have the tech for individual gene editing, we just need to know more about what we’re editing and how to have that change reproduced across the entire body.
The propogation of genotype changes into phenotypic expression across an entire organism is debatably implausible after a certain point. I’d suggest maybe you have 7 to 10 days after fertilization before it becomes impossible due to the wide spread differentiation of cells and absolutely by weeks 9 to 12 when the embryo passes the developmental boundary to be called a fetus at which point all the parts are there, though not in their final places nor fully developed.
Actually, its worth noting that we already can make certain genetic modifications in adults to treat cancer. Using modified AIDS viruses to reprogram T cells to recognize cancer cells that it previously couldn’t detect is a real treatment that has successfully cured- 100% cured- a handful of leukemia cases.
Not every bodily system is as easily targeted (immune system is simple because blood delivers the virus wherever it needs to go), but its certainly an existing model for adult genetic modification.
Of course, there’s also the minor detail that just because you come up with some high-tech solution to female only reproduction, producing an entirely XX population, that doesn’t make them all lesbians. From what we know of how sexual orientation works, you’ll still have a large percentage who aren’t sexually or romantically interested in other women.
Of course, I guess that’s why they’re always “sexy bisexual space babes” falling all over the first manly Earth hero who shows up.
You will also have a small population of transmen to deal with.
Well it is two words now, but English as she is spoke, she marches invariantly onward, assimilating and laying waste to vast grammars in her wake, invariably approaching the lesbian singularity beyond which no man can see.
No, as a single word it’s actually a slur, since it would be used as an alternative to “men”, disqualifying the notion that trans men are men. When trans is a separate adjective, that idea is intrinsically reinforced; when the two words form a single, separate noun, it’s divorced from a naïve interpretation of the sentence. And we all know that there is no shortage of naïve people.
Hmm. Good point. My number of charted scenarios for human evolution just increased. Quick! To the speculation on how advanced gene-therapy and chromosome manipulation can become!!
And if this seems like a lot to her, well, so far it’s ALL been sexuality-related. She hasn’t had mind-blowing revelations about gender OR disparities between sexual and romantic attractions. By 2024, scientists predict that the remaining stimuli capable of producing blasphemous shock in Joyce Brown will by necessity produce black holes with enough intrinsic negative energy to sustain warp fields sufficient for faster-than-light interstellar travel for a moderate crew capable of short-term survivability.
I get the feeling romantic attractions won’t phase her much. She seems like she’s already got a dichotomy between ‘love’, which is good and pure and brings her closer to the lord, and ‘attraction’, which can only lead to a cragged pit of lustwolves and anarchy.
Except she thinks the love is tied to the attraction, it’s just that the attraction should only be expressed (physically) within marriage. Love without the sexual attraction wouldn’t work for her in the long run, however much she might think it would make it easier now.
…what about causing people to freak out in alarm over the most common, insignificant things (“aaah, I’m surrounded by a gaseous mixture primarily consisting of nitrogen and oxygen!” “aaah, it’s raining outside!”) and making them so alarmed by those things that they don’t notice her actual evil plan to [insert evil plan here]?
If it’s a villain that Randall Munroe would come up with, then it’s completely silly. And “aaah, I’m surrounded by a gaseous mixture primarily consisting of nitrogen and oxygen!” is a villain that Randall Munroe would come up with.
Hmmmmm. Maybe “alarmist” should refer less to superpower and more to M.O. Cause chaos and anarchy by spreading fear over small things, like lead in drinking water rising to one thousandth of toxic levels. Mmmm… oh, and she could draw emotional-based energy from people, like a sort of psychic anxiety-vampire who could get a free meal just by saying “psychic anxiety-vampire” to a large room of people.
Made a character like that once. His whole thing was that he could “feed” on emotions of those around him. Any emotion really, so he could feed on happiness and stuff, but he discovered that fear, pain, and despair were more tasty so he decided to be glutton and destroy the world, then use the power he gains from all the negative emotion in order to try to become god and make a new world where every living creature was always in agony and whatnot.
I’ll happily give Joyce credit for being concerned, since she’s treating Mandy and Grace’s relationship as important and legitimate, even if she doesn’t understand the parameters. It shows how far she’s come from the start of the comic.
Carla’s comment in panel 1 is kind of over the line from “lovable jerk” to “actually kinda shitty” but I guess that’s subjective and she’s trying to push Joyce away.
Considering what people of faith have put Carla through, I’d say it’s at worst “jerkish but understandable”, and based on Joyce’s reaction it’s also “on point”.
Emily is talking about the actual tentative of sexual abuse on Joyce at the party.
Of course Carla didn’t think about that, but I can guarantee that joking about any kind of abuse to someone who’s been through it might be quite triggering, even if it’s something totally unrelated.
Like when a friend makes a really bad joke and you give him the usual “please go hang yourself” for it, then remembers that one of his parents committed suicide two months ago.
Oh very much. It’s a cruel thing to say, especially to someone’s face.
Like I get why she did it. And what background this is coming from (I mean, I had my douchey atheist phase where I likely said similar before i mellowed out to my current live and let live atheism).
As someone who makes this kind of sarcasm often and gets a lot of shit for it, I’m actually surprised that the comment section is so blissfully unaware that Carla’s line in the first panel may be a bit rude to someone who is still recovering from a tentative of actual abuse.
Metaphorical bricks have been thrown at me for less than that :p
I can’t wait to see someone try to explain polyamory to Joyce! This shall be fun. Although I do worry if she will be able to wrap her head around it or if she will dive headfirst back into the nearest Bible and have to be pried out.
Joyce: “Doooooooorothy. Grace and Sierra say there can be THREE-girl hankypanky. Can it?”
Dorothy: “Huh? Yes, polyamory is not that uncommon and there are many different ways it can be organized. It is not restricted to same-gender relationships of course.”
Walky: “So you can totally bang Dorothy. I’m cool with it.”
*scandalized Joyce-face*
Walky: “But… wait, how do you show up with a U-Haul to two different houses at the same time?”
Dorothy: “THAT’S NOT HOW IT WORKS!”
Walky: “How do YOU know?”
Dorothy: “RESEARCH!”
Walky: “And WHY were you researching this?”
Dorothy: “Because a president should know how large swathes of citizens live their lives and… wait, what are you implying?”
That’s it! This whole comic is just a ploy for Willis to take our money and *scandalized gasp* earn a living wage! How un-American! He should stop performing tasks with pecuniary motivation and get a job!
(Clarification: This snark is not directed at you, MM. Your comment just started this chain of thought in my head, because I’m like that sometimes.)
Random question to readers because I’m curious. Does anybody remember how they found out about polyamory (not to be confused with Mormon polygamy) or were polyamorus?
Yeah. I think comic do a great job introducing people to a lot of information in a positive way that would normally be shown negatively or with some type of stereotype.
Honestly? I don’t remember if I found out externally. I knew about the Mormons, and also about some “one man, several viwes” cultures, but these things never seemed right to me as such…
…But if several people based on full and mutual respect and love for one another would want to try it, then sure, no worries, right?
But that may be me casting myself in the best possible light. Can’t really say for sure that’s how it happened.
There is a long history of emperors casting themselves in the best possible light 😉
Seriously though. Not everybody remembers when they found out something, especially if it’s something they found out young or that wasn’t a big deal for them. 🙂
I’d wager that most American’s initial learning about polyamory is heavily tied to both Mormon Polygamy and Crazy-Ass-Cult Polygamy
You hear about CAC Polygamy because… it’s major news stuff at times, and it’s one of those “Evil religious cults heavily tied to sex” things that media just can’t get over.
Then you learn about Mormon Polygamy which (at least as intended and is likely how it’s practiced by many I don’t want to talk long about something that I don’t know enough about) is like CACP but without the evil and abuse and rape and shit.
And then you learn about Polyamory, which is like MP, but less rigid, less gender-specific and a whole lot more attractive to certain fanfic communities.
It’s a major aspect of context to learning about those subjects, and probably why so many struggle with it: They’re still not used to thinking flexibly about sexuality.
Very true. That’s why I asked for when people found out about the more positive inclusive respectful modern polyamory. A lot of people hear about the cult polygamy and Mormon polygamy and the negative connotations that come with them. Finding out that it can be respectful and equal instead of objectifying women and/or heavily religious can really turn a lot of preconceived notions on their heads.
I found out as a teen when there was some kind of short documentary (like 20 or 30 minutes) style thing on tv and that week they followed a married couple. The woman had a serious relationship and a boyfriend and I think the man had 2 girlfriends and was about to go out on a date. The closest thing I ever heard of before to it was Mormon polygamy, swinging, and cheating and this was not that. They were even all friends! My poor indoctrinated closed off mind just couldn’t make it make sense and I didn’t have Internet to research it. I was so nieve back then XD
I had a friend in school who had two boyfriends, who both knew about each other. That was the first time I heard of it. I remember asking her ‘and they’re not jealous?’ She said ‘not of each other’, which is an answer I still super love, almost twenty years later 😀
I don’t recall. I think I remember hearing about gods having multiple wives in mythology of some sort? Or a cartoon? Anime? Some sort of creature with two wives?
Heinlein. Then Lackey. Also how I found out that hetero was not the only option. Was eleven or twelve. Am currently queer and poly, bet my poor conservative parents wish they’d monitored my reading more carefully, but one was a ‘grandmaster of scifi’ so dad approved and the other was about magic horses so totally innocent. 🙂
When did Lackey mention poly? …
Hm, I never applied poly to the hawkbrothers, but well, yeah…
Must be because she became so inexplicably explicit about describing hawkbrothers marriages in later books (when did she turn conservative anyway?)
Her urban fantasy novel KNIGHT OF GHOSTS AND SHADOWS ends with the three protagonists getting together, and they’re a functional trio in the sequel. …then she got a different cowriter and they broke up, but I pretend those books didn’t happen.
I don’t know if that was my introduction to the concept of non-patriarchal polyamory or not, but I’m pretty sure it was the first time I saw it in fiction. Though it could have been Heinlein; I read FRIDAY pretty early.
There was also the potential of a triad in the first of the Arrows of the Queen books. THere was a lesbian couple, and one of them died during a mission, leaving the other lost in despair since she’d been in mental contact with her partner as she was dying. So Talia, the queen’s herald (and main char of the triology) went and found another girl who’d been in love with both of them for a while, to help anchor her. And the first girl made it clear that she felt it a pity the girl never said anything before, since they would have both welcomed her in their relationship.
Yup, reading Heinlein was my first exposure to it as well, was a teenager at the time. Also have found some webcomics where the central characters are poly.
When I was in elementary school, Tamora Pierce taught me all the things my parents missed. By middle school, Mercedes Lackey taught me the rest. Smuggled in in the guise of magic horses, of course.
doesn’t Heinlein also have characters who time travel and get together with their own moms? I’m all for “it’s cool so long as no one gets hurt”, but incest is a bit far
same here. Go Get a Roomie had the first one, though I didn’t understand the term or really get how it could work until I found out about Polygems and realized how well that could work. It was my favorite ship ever for a long time and is still up there.
Although honestly, all the stuff i didn’t get beforehand was explained to me by Changeling: Malibu Dream House, which is a forum thread containing a variety of in-character journals from an ongoing Changeling: the Lost (a tabletop game) Chronicle. There are only two or so major characters I can think of that aren’t polyamorous in that game, and two PCs and two major NPCs have an all-girl romantic quartet that is also an open relationship with with 3 out of 4 of them also involved in one or more loving relationships of various levels of seriousness outside of the quartet. It does a good job of showing the downsides of juggling that many relationships too without in any way condemning the concept in general and i am still following the story closely.
actually, come to think of it, the first time i saw a relationship like that portrayed positively was the ending of Rick Riordian’s Kane Chronicles series. I didn’t realize it until later, it’s a strange magical example and I’m pretty sure that Rick didn’t mean for it to be taken that way, but it was still cool. Great series all around though
I think I, like many others, initially learned about it from the Mormons/Salomon. But back then, it was a “thing that other people did that had to do with religion somehow”.
Pretty sure my first contact with a real polyamorous couple[1][2] was on the Questionable Content fora. Sadly, they are long gone from there. (PS and a12, if you happen to read this, hi!) It turned from a “thing weird people did” to a “thing that other people did and certainly not me, haha”.
Then eventually my ex-turned-fuckbuddy fell for a crush of mine…
[1] I am aware that the term “polyamorous couple” is somewhat of an oxymoron, but they were, at least in my memory, really the only two of their polycule who attended those fora.
[2] Polyamorous in the sense that they embrace a philosophy shaped by more recent poly theory, by things like “More Than Two” etc.
It’s amazing how close we can get to people who have a shared interest but not a shared zip code. I hope you buy into them somehow one day online. 🙂
Also, gotta love QC. It was amazing even back when the art was simple. Sometimes I wonder if he will ever introduce a character who was intersex at birth, but had their bits changed to resemble male or female before they could consent. It’s random to say, but that’s how I’ve thought of Penelope for a long time because of the religious parents and her feelings toward them.
I learned about it at a Human Awareness Institute workshop (one of many reasons HAI is pretty awesome). As I learned about it, it made a lot of sense, and I quickly realized that I was poly. I’ve been fortunate in not experiencing jealousy (yes, really, never) and in finding partners who weren’t jealous.
BTW, I was raised believing in Gays Go To Hell and No Sex Before Marriage. Learning that my best friend was gay evaporated the first belief. The second took a few more years – I had to actually become atheist first. By the time I encountered poly, my attitude was “If everyone’s enjoying it (and it’s basically healthy), go for it!” And I did.
I’d never heard of HAI. I’m glad they helped you. And I’m glad you got away from all that hateful thinking as well. I’m still scared of people finding out I’m an atheist in my town, while I tend not to hide being polysexual (not to be confused with polyamorus 😉 ) save filtering depending on the situation. How do you feel about it?
either reading wikipedia or reading this web serial about a high fantasy world in a modern day setting featuring a repressed bisexual half-demon who ends up with multiple lovers in her first year at college.
I was like ten when I learned about it. very precocious.
It’s hard to know when and how I first became acquainted with polyamory in concept. I was certainly aware of swinging and open relationships in concept before starting high school but multi-party mutual love based relationships (ie polyamory proper) wasn’t on my radar until some time later and I certainly couldn’t tell you now how I learned of any of those (we’re talking about a period over two decades ago). That said I can tell you about my first in situ experience with polyamory (vaguely, mind, due to not being comfortable sharing too much detail about my meatspace life online)….
So in ’99 I was a freshman in college about to be wrapping that year up (it was March or April) when I met a nice bi couple at a local BDSM event (I was rather new to BDSM at that point and still finding myself in most ways) who were looking for a Dom to fill out their poly family.
A was 25 or 26, had just started her professional career, and was a switch. Her girlfriend S was a 20 or 21 year old sub and effectively the homemaker in their relationship (she had no interest in further schooling nor a career). We dated for a while (around six months) and I was invited to join their household full time (I wasn’t in school anymore by that point) but I had other life issues that got in the way and had grown to realize that the poly dynamic didn’t work for me emotionally and we ended up parting on amiable terms. Last I heard they had found a guy (a freshly minted lawyer IIRC) who fit their relationship well and they were all planning their handfasting (that was around a decade ago).
*wipes brow*
That was a lots of reply but a promise is a promise. I wonder if anyone will notice?
The long gap between my first few replies is because my dad’s dog had a seizure. Three in total back to back. The vet put him on meds but it will take time for them to get in his system. So Jake got to scare the hell out of us for over an hour, recover after another 30 minutes, and then bound off to drop a ball in my lap wanting to play fetch! Gotta love that kind of attitude. He only has 2 to 4 episodes a month, but clustered together like that they can be dangerous. Thus the med.
Happy to know everything is now fine !
I came back to see if you answered my commentary, and I’m now looking at all the other ones.
Human experiences are fun !
A woman friend of mine told me she was poly. I was surprised, and asked questions. That was the easy part.
I realized that I considered, soon after that poly-talk, “opening” my relationship with the man I was dating at the time, for we lived in two different cities and I feared our relationship wasn’t satisfying to him. (Yep, weirdly I was OK with the thought of him having “another girl” but didn’t consider the same for myself). Looks like I was right about the insatisfaction thing because he dumped me soon.
After that, I hooked again with a sexfriend I had some months before. Then, the polyamourous friend from the beginning told me my sexfriend and she were going back together, and that she was cool with me still having sex with him if I was cool with them being in a relationship.
A month after that, I got my girlfriend. I told my sexfriend that, being in a relationship, I wanted to “pause” again our activities.
Then I discovered that my girlfriend had some flavor of sex aversion whereas I have some flavor of sex appreciation, and I worried it would break the relationship. I asked my girlfriend for authorization to hook up with my sexfriend, she said yes. (I still wasn’t considering that arrangement polyamory, because one of the relationship wasn’t “amourous”).
Then my sexfriend realized that he felt dirty having two sex partners at the same time because he had learnt that only terrible men do that.
My girlfriend came over to cheer me up because my sexfriend had just dumped me. That was weird.
For some reason, a lot of the human beings I know are perfectly okay with casual touching. Loads of hugs, massages and all the like. A man friend, at the time, asked me to do these kinds of touching just as friends. (We were both in long-distance relationships at the time). I accepted and discovered that I have some flavor of casual-touching inability and that my mind and my body read everything he did as flirt. And I “flirted” back – cuddling with him, massaging him. I felt like I cheated on my girlfriend so I called her after he left and told her everything. She answered that it was casual touching and that it didn’t count, but she was happy to learn that all the casual touching we did together satisfied me sexually speaking because it was still a sore point in our relationship.
I felt like I owed the guy the truth about me liking what we did a bit too much, so I told him some months later that I took advantage of him, that I felt bad and that I wouldn’t do these casual touching with him anymore because I knew he wasn’t interested in being romantic or sexual with me.
He stopped me and said he had a huge crush on me since some weeks after that day we casually cuddled, and that he had asked my girlfriend the authorization to flirt with me sooner in that week. (She answered “uh, I’m not her owner, ask HER if she wants to date you, weirdo”. Because she was perfect like that.)
And that is how I ended up being in two relationships with two wonderful people, and also a terrible advocate against the part of biphobia that says that all bisexual people want a man and a woman at once.
(My girlfriend is now my ex-girlfriend, but I lived with my boyfriend.)
I love this so much. It shows so many different situations. And your ex girlfriend does sound pretty amazing. A lot of people I know of any gender are the jealous type (at least around here) as well as possessive.
I also loved how you mentioned biphobia and the stereotype we get assigned. I think that’s why a lot of bisexuals/polysexuals/pansexuals won’t even consider polyamory; people saying we are sluts, require both a male and a female partner, and/or only have threesomes tends to get old pretty fast. I wish everyone who caught that crap got to talk to you and see that being in a relationship with people of different genders isn’t a bad thing and doesn’t prove anyone right in their assumptions.
I think I just kind of intuited it as a concept as a result of ever mounting bafflement and disgust with fictional love polygons and my overly empathetic brain’s efforts to resolve them without someone having their heart broken. Like the hard limitation of a relationship to two people just never really made sense to me as far back as I can remember.
That’s so sweet. You know I have never heard of someone reading about a love [shape] and think they should all just get together? Heck, this is the first time I thought of it! It would also make some of the more crazy relationships make more sense than what the author ended up doing.
Biased sample, of course, but also webcomics. Blue Crash Kit, as I recall, which is no longer even hosted online, nor has been for some years. Ah, nostalgia. I was almost certainly “too young” to be reading it at the time, but I think it has probably had a positive impact on my outlook on life.
I’m now saddened that a comic that had a positive impact is no longer hosted online. Perhaps one day they will again. Random question, but did it have an ending or just stop in an odd place?
For me it was in watching Avenida Brasil, a very successful soap opera here in Brazil, had the formation of 2 poly relationships along it’s course, in the end it had one of a man and 3 women (but the women were only in relationships with the man and only friends with each other) and one with a woman and two men (these ones are all in a relationship with each other). The quad had grown up kids already and by the last episode the woman in the triad was shown to be pregnant.
It was a very famous soap opera só it was on the brazilian mainstream media a lot.
I don’t remember ever finding out about it, rather than simply figuring it as ‘something that would happen in the rather huge world of relationships’.
As to being…I had a girlfriend who wanted it. I didn’t, so that didn’t work out so well – not so much the ‘she has other partners’ thing, as the ‘she was pushing me to’ part.
I’ve never understood that. If a partner has something that they are or that they love, they shouldn’t try to force you to be the same! You should be cool with it and if they want to tell you about it or offer it to you once, that’s fine, but don’t try to force somebody you are supposed to be a partner with. I don’t care if it’s religion or sports or favorite hobby, it can ruin a relationship.
My best friend is a wiccan and her husband is agnostic. They are happy, he supports her, and he went with her one year to Samhain with her coven, but he’s still agnostic. They’ve never tried to change each other’s minds and are respectful which is how it should be.
I attended Oberlin College. I was terrified of sex and not ready for it, but/so I read literally all of Dan Savage’s columns, and listened to his podcasts, probably during freshman and sophomore year.
From there I heard mention of ‘The Ethical Slut’ (which is a foundational book on the matter) and read it, too. Hooray for book learning.
By senior year I’d managed to open my primary relationship, which was neato because I got to kiss and snuggle ladies.
By the time my older brother and his wife came out about their open marriage, I was able to run interference for the rest of my family, hah. My parents still wish they didn’t know.
All I remember is learning about it in the Bible, and realizing that, if David could be after the Lord’s own heart and have multiple wives, then it clearly was not forbidden.
That may have been my awakening to the fact that people interpreted the Bible, seeing as their ideas were clearly different from that of others. David sure didn’t think that Genesis forbade him to have multiple wives.
Anyways, from there I assumed that there must be a woman with multiple husbands, and then from there any combination. I don’t know when I learned it was something practiced today, through. I’m sure I saw it in porn, but I didn’t know if that was real. (I do know I thought the trans women in the magazine were fake. I didn’t even connect them with the “transsexuals” I’d heard about.)
You just blew my mind. Finding someone out of the closet in my town is rare because of how it is here. To think of a place where people could be that open… that sounds as good as hot coco in the winter.
Huh. It’s hard to remember bc it seems so natural to me now? I think… hm. There was this book with a bisexual guy who claimed he was not cheating on anyone bc he only had one girlfriend at a time. “What, are you broken up with Rael already?” “Does Rael look like a girl to you?”
Either that, or that book where the protag was so fucking done with being in a love triangle with two guys and all DRAMA between them about who she’d stay with (while otherwise they got along and had their own thing going on) and just put her foot down and said “I am fucking keeping you both” and they were like “…ok, that works”
Whichever was first.
Or maybe even before that, the concept of free love and ppl just not giving a fuck about who sleeps with whom we’re all friends anyway.
Or the idea of having multiple wives who are happy with each other.
Huh. It feels like it was never something that felt wrong to me, even if at some point I didn’t know the word for it? I can’t remember learning the word at all, it just wasn’t an emotional moment. Probably on TVTropes as 90% of my non-basic English vocabulary comes from there?
Well if you know Russian… it was called… uh okay let me google bc i dont actually remember the name. It kind of changed multiple times?
aha there it is
“Ар-Нейт”, the first book is called “Белая тетрадь”, the author is Софья Ролдугина
I’m sorry to everyone who doesn’t know Russian )= you are missing out on a lot of our glorious quality fantasy
(warning: this is not Pure. this is very Problematic. like abusive shit? its in there? its still great but its the trashy kind of great)
I was on an academic-ish listserv where one of the subscribers was Janet Hardy, who would later go on to literally co-write the book on polyamory, “The Ethical Slut.”
(Someone asked her about the Unethical Virgin; her response was, “Somebody already wrote that book, and it’s called ‘The Rules.'”)
I don’t remember the exact origin of when I found out about the existence of poly, but I’m 99% sure it was through the AVEN forums with other asexuals saying it was a structure that worked well for them and sharing their experiences. Though I might have seen it (badly) covered in Dan Savage’s column before that. But the AVEN one is what stuck.
As for as figuring out I was poly. That was about 6 months into my relationship with my ex which was my first relationship ever. We were still trying to figure out mono frame and asexuality and I was moving really slowly on sex stuff because the internal pressure whenever we tried something felt brutal and distracting (she was great about this, it was mostly my own brain freaking out before trying every new thing that it wouldn’t work or it wouldn’t be the same as with a sexual partner or that I’d be shit at it and then she’d never experience that again as long as she was with me).
So, during that time, she also had a very… close friendship with another girl that was clearly developing into a relationship and she was freaking out about that and the mutual attractions and loyalty and all that stuff while not being able to deny the attraction. And I found them really cute together and at the time I thought I was a guy, so I thought that I was “cutting her off” from experience with women (which was biphobic of me, I know).
So we ended up making a decision to go on break while she pursued that relationship, but the girl went screaming back into the closet after my ex asked her out and so that was a whole mess and she came back to me and we just sort of picked up where we left off.
And I remember feeling that was dumb and that I knew about this poly thing from AVEN and so said, “hey why don’t we do this thing” so that you don’t have to stress if this sort of thing pops up again. And that was sort of that. I really liked helping her get ready for dates and decompressing after them and feeling all the compersion and the lack of stress made performing sexual stuff a lot less scary and a lot more enjoyable from an intellectual and emotional stand point (like yeah, I made someone feel that good, that’s so awesome, bodies are fascinating) and that reduced a lot of stress on that angle.
That’s such a sweet story hun. And I can see how being poly would feel so natural for so many asexuals seeing how it took the stress and pressure off you.
Also, it’s so weird hearing you talk about when you were a guy! Sometimes I forget all the years you lived as male. Is it ever strange to think back to before you figured it out?
Dated a girl in highschool who, nine years later, is still one of my best friends. We only see each other every couple of years, around Christmas. One of these times, she told me about the time she’d tried a polyamorous relationship, but it wasn’t her thing. It wasn’t necessarily a negative experience, but it just didn’t work for her. (Incidentally, it’s her birthday today.)
The first unambiguously positive example I heard about was in these comment threads, shipping Ethan/Danny/Amber. And I still ship this, they just need to work on some issues.
I love that yall are still friends even with the distance. And I love that the comments here gave you a positive example.
Also, how did I miss that example!?! I guess I was coming off a binge read of DoA after reading Shortpacked! when I commented the first time, so I had no idea that how Amber was acting was DID or that openly hoping she got with Mike again like in the other comic would get so much… negative feedback, so odds are I missed more (before catching up I only actively searched for any comment by Willis).
No, the perfect DoA strip is the one where Mike and Robin get their comeuppances simultaneously due to Carla’s latest scheme, which somehow involves Sayid and Alex the Teacher, and also Marcie and Malaya finally hooking up for real. And also Jocelyne comes out to an accepting Joyce in the same strip, and Ruth is genuinely happy, and Amber sees a therapist, who is actually Sal wearing the gag glasses from Persona 4.
You know, I’ve always felt bad about shipping because I feel like I’m disregarding the characters in doing so, but does anyone else now kinda ship Joyce, Carla, and Sal in a polyamorous relationship? I mean, both Joyce and Carla seem to have (in Carla’s case purely romantic) a small crush on Sal and Joyce and Carla’s interactions so far, few though they have been, really have a sort of Tsundere feel to them on Carla’s part. But then I get to thinking “But Sal has so far identified pretty clearly as straight” and “Oh, would that negatively affect Becky and by extension her relationship with Dina? Because they’re so sweet…” and the next thing I know I’m knocking my head softly against a wall in indecision before eventually stress eating a pizza.
It’s not wrong for you to ship it, though I personally can’t see Joyce/Sal in any form ending well. She and Jason are the only two people I can’t really get behind shipping with Sal (outside mega asshole villain folks obviously and, because this is the internet and I feel I must specify, her family, who I also automatically consider a no-no).
I find the growing details of the lives of these side characters more compellingly interesting than perhaps half the primary cast at this point.
Also maybe Joyce does have a point. Grace and Mandy’s polyamory with Sierra may not be inherently scandalous by their account, but I mean they’re still making out in the hallway in their underwear in broad…is this at night? During lights on hours at the very least, which would probably be at least frowned upon if an RA were there.
This is a fine example of what would be both Joyce’s best and worst traits as an RA.
She is caring, understanding, emphatic and wishes everyone the best.
She is also a nosy, moralizing busybody!
I love how neither Grace or Sierra are the least offended. They just pat the little scandalized clueless busybody on her and give her the latest update.
They’ve probably all gotten used to Joyce at this point. Especially Sierra, who I assume has been still been walking to church with Joyce for the past couple months.
Also, I’m fairly certain Sierra added that last bit specifically to get a reaction out of Joyce, and I am in no way judging her for it.
Becky: I don’t know. I just feel as if someone is carrying on my legacy.
Dina: What does that mean?
Becky: Joyce’s making one of her faces again.
Dina: Ah, yes. I am quite familiar with that face. I believe I have induced it on occasion, such as the time I explained to her that her annual vaccinations were only necessary because of evolution.
Joyce, barging in: “Here, Dina, take a look at this picture of Jesus cuddling a baby raptor with no feathers!”
Dina: *brainmelts into stammering*
Joyce: YES! REVENGE!
Like, my impression was that there’s a lot of speculation and not a lot of hard evidence on things like soft tissue structure, what color their feathers were, etc. There’s only so much you can get from fossils.
I don’t know what’s considered “settled” and what’s still in question, but there have been a lot of new finds and new analyses in the last few years. I’m pretty sure we have hard evidence for feather colors in at least one species.
We actually have fairly good soft tissue impressions for a number of species, enough that we can usually use a close relative of a given species to fill in the gaps. And their modern relatives work pretty well as an indicator the rest of the time. And that’s not even getting into the fact that musculature and fat distribution leaves indications on bones, even if the actual soft tissue isn’t fossilized.
Maybe someone should remind Joyce that the tea party movement is an anarchist movement, I mean, they chant “Death to America, Tea Party Victory” at their rallies.
Though there do exist “ancaps” (anarchist capitalists), who basically favor a completely unregulated form of capitalism where businesses define the overall structure and government doesn’t exist so the free market can work its voodoo magic. (I don’t particularly have much respect for this ideology).
And I know of at least one ancap person who has also been heavily involved in Tea Party stuff, though I would be hesitant to say that is the majority or even a major plurality of the group.
Doesn’t sound like they’ve thought it through to the point of “how do you have a market when me and my mates can just beat you up and take your stuff”.
Typical.
Or they have and just assume they’ll be the “me and my mates”.
The various leftist variations on anarchism or libertarianism have always at least seemed to have more coherent ideas about how their societies would actually work.
As I understand it there would be free-market cops you could hire to prevent people from beating you up and taking your stuff. What would keep the free-market cops from taking your stuff wasn’t clear.
We normally call those private security forces. Which, in the absence of any actual government control, devolves in about 15 minutes into gangs and in a generation or two into feudalism.
Say whatever you will about the Tea Baggers (I kid you not, that’s what they originally called themselves)… but “Death to America” sounds so antithetical to the ideology of the movement that it strikes me as something that would have come from the leftist equivalent of Breitbart or Infowars.
It’s straight out of ISIS propaganda. But that one little phrase is basically the only difference between ISIS’ platform and the Republican establishment’s; for one, both of them focus on a fictitious war between “Islam” and “the West”.
Which still doesn’t have anything to do with “Death to America” being chanted at a Tea Party Rally sounding like something entirely made-up by the sorts of “sources” that wouldn’t know a fact if it bit them on the ass.
Or provide any sort of outside verifiable source for the claim.
Hey DOA fam, what are some of your coping strategies? I just found out that a wonderful, kind friend of mine is dying from inoperable cancer. I last saw her a week ago and now she’s already back in her home country which is very far away from mine. Crying my eyes out in my room isn’t helping; even this comic, which would have normally elicited a chuckle, didn’t do a thing.
As for coping mechanisms… I often do anger, spite, and writing a lot of words. But that’s just me. Not sure it’ll work for you.
And no matter what sort of coping you do, I really hope that you can share the grief with someone close to you that you trust. It’s when the chips are down that we really need help from one another. And yes, surely you’ll also have times where you need to be alone… But just being able to tell someone that you need to be alone, and having them immediately understand why… It’s one of those things that seems insignificantly small until it suddenly isn’t.
I try to sleep a lot. Of course I have a chronic disease that makes me tired all the time, so that’s easier for me than for some. But just about everything seems more bearable if you have a good sleep, it creates some distance between you and the initial hit.
Also I use a sort of mental white-noise distraction technique to just plain stop thinking about it for a while.
And doing work is good, grinding work that helps distract or something that seems helpful – when my sister had a heart attack and was on the brink of death I grabbed my felting needles and made her a felted heart to have in hospital – stabbing things lots of times was therapeutic.
And if you have to cry, well, remind yourself it’s an important task. I had to put my cat to sleep today. I’m going to be crying a lot for a while, and that’s part of the grieving and it needs to get done.
My preferred anger/frustration outlet tends to be firing up an ARPG on the laptop (currently, Grim Dawn) and going to town on everything that moves and/or is breakable.
I’m sorry to hear that. My two cents: distractions (art, exercise, movies, something you usually enjoy, therapy (short-term therapy exists for situations like this), and Skype/text/calling your friend when she has the energy to do so. Do your best to not let your melancholy show when interacting with her; she should not be put in a position where she might feel like she should be comforting you
Oh no, I’m sorry to hear that! *giant hugs if wanted*
Well, in general, I think one of the important things is to forgive yourself and give yourself the right to feel awful for a bit. Sometimes emotions are really strong and letting yourself feel really sad or angry for a little bit can help it seem less intense and allow you more space to return to emotions like happiness.
Therapy can also be a useful thing and there are therapists who do work specifically for a short number of weeks to work on a specific thing (like coping with a friend’s cancer diagnosis) and that can help it feel less overwhelming. Long-distance communication with the friend as Antigone notes is also good.
Distractions can also help. I’ll often do like three things at once when I’m in a terrible head space so that my mind can sort of melt away into that and not get stuck on a particular topic that is upsetting me.
This isn’t so much a coping mechanism as general advice, but I think it’s important that you allow yourself to take breaks from your grief. It’s likely to be a long process before you reach a new normal.
That doesn’t mean you can’t have moments or even lengthy periods where you aren’t miserable or are even happy. Resist the urge to feel guilty about smiling or having fun. It’s okay. You NEED those moments of respite. It isn’t a betrayal (though it IS normal if you feel like it is), it’s only a break.
Taking breaks grief is probably as important as allowing yourself to feel it. Don’t bottle your grief for the sake of putting on a brave face, but distract yourself from it as needed.
I find exercise is a good activity to help turn your thoughts off for a while, particularly if you listen to music. It has the added benefit of helping you fall asleep faster, so you spend less time lying awake in bed.
Joyce, first panel: “I mean, it’s not as if I’ve recently realized that a lot of the love my church has practiced for years is actually hate in disguise, and I certainly never had any kind of existential crisis over that or anything. Baka.”
Thanks. Also, I love how that reply seems to come out of nowhere to someone who didn’t see the title text for the link I piped into the middle of a paragraph of text.
OK, OK, focusing only on the first panels a little while I love Joyce’s sentiment here. The RA is gone, anarchy threatens but we keep it at bay, one nice act of reaching out to thy neighbor at the time.
And I totally see Carla’s point as well. “Yeah, NOW when we don’t have an RA everything unravels. Who knows, I might even be harassed or discriminated against or something like that. Geeeeez, that’s totally new.”
Honestly, I’m kind of wondering how Becky will react to this, if/when she finds out about it. After all, we know she responded to Billie’s bisexuality about as well as Danny responded to, well, Danny’s bisexuality.
Speaking seriously, I’m kind of nervous for when Joyce starts to figure out trans people. Not because I don’t trust Willis to handle it–I think he’s earned some trust, however often we get burned–but walking Joyce stumble through figuring all of that in her good-natured but unknowingly hurtful way may be a little painful.
It took me a little while for me to realize why this scene made me happier, not just because of ‘Joyce funny face’ but because of its general content. Because, the heart of it is, Joyce sees a poly couple and she freaks out in a loud and dramatic way, and that’s, like. Well that’s bad, ye?
But, Sierra and Grace are just, so chill with it. And when Joyce sees them, they’re incredibly relaxed about it. Their posture remains relaxed and affectionate, they’re TOTALLY unguarded. And in the last panel they casually tell Joyce that Mandy is also part of the triad(?) too.
And part of it is, Joyce sees same-sex couple kissing and that doesn’t even phase her. We already knew that her idea of what good romantic couples could be expanded to include gals and gals, but its heartening to see that presented again in this context.
And there’s also how comfortable Grace and Sierra are with being seen? Grace has that little grin in the last panel showing how she’s enjoying Joyce’s freakout, and Sierra’s expression is constantly cheerful. Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but the impression I’m getting is that they feel comfortable around Joyce, even as they delve into typically marginalized relationships. And I think that says a lot about how the queer girls on the floor have come to trust Joyce after what happened with Becky.
I agree with all of this. Joyce has grown a lot now that she sees same-gender smooching and is going “wait, but fidelity” rather than “wait, but you’re both girls” and yeah Grace and Sierra’s casualness and trust of Joyce are well seen. They know that Joyce will freak out for a bit, but they know that she’s not going to go all holy roller and try and hurt them with this knowledge in the way a Mary would.
And it’s great to see Joyce developing that relationship among folks as someone who will ultimately end up on the right side even if there will be freakouts along the way.
I know! And not in the weird creepy way it was during It’s Walky and Joe’s squad where it was more about fulfilling harem tropes than depicting polyamorous relationships. I’m really happy about this.
That said, I feel like we all should have seen this coming given the fact that half the floor started as Squad 48. Obviously healthier in this universe, but same idea.
Vaguely, but I think it serves a coherent narrative purpose? This strip starts with Carla calling Joyce ‘one of those God girls’ and of course she’s thinking of Mary, when she says it. It seems that Carla still doesn’t QUITE trust Joyce, because of that association, I think. Which is fair enough.
Of course, Joyce doesn’t understand why Carla would be suspicious of her motives, so she can’t answer them, and even if she attempted to defend herself it would ring hollow. Instead, it immediately pans to her seeing Grace and Sierra kissing and they have their little back-and-forth.
Which I think serves two purposes. Firstly, it highlights how far she’s come, in that she sees two girls kissing and is immediately scandalized not by the fact that it’s two girls, but that she thinks she’s seeing someone cheating. This establishes her as someone who might be worthy of trust in this.
Secondly, we see her reaction to a happy poly couple, and even though it’s played off as a joke the fact that she’s freaking out illustrates that, while she’s come a long way, she still has some harmful hangups to get over. This both separates Joyce from Mary, but also establishes that even if her heart is in the right place, she isn’t quite ‘safe’ in the way that an informed ally would be. . . Yet.
As for Grace, Mandy and Sierra, I kinda like how abrupt the reveal of their poly-relationship is. Just click their tags. All three of them obviously have all sort of cool things going on that we don’t really know about because our focus is elsewhere. But it’s not like the main cast have any monopoly of college drama around here.
The exception is of course Agatha who live a normal, slightly boring life and never have any drama going on. That’s my headcanon and I’m sticking to it for the sake of a lame joke despite all obvious signs of the contrary.
Honestly, I didn’t even consider that weird? Because like, they’re great, but they’re minor characters. We aren’t going to get a dramatic poly reveal for these guys.
There is basically only two things everyone needs to know about polyamory
– Some people make it work
– Society is structured in a way that often discriminates it, so we have to update society to avoid pointless tragedy (compare and contrast same gender marriage).
If one is involved or want to be involved in a polyamorous relationship there are a few more things to learn, of course, the first of which is:
– COMMUNICATION IS VERY IMPORTANT.
(a few bullet points down comes: Good scheduling can help a lot.)
(As said by someone who is actually not in a polyamorous relationship. There are plenty of people with first-hand knowledge who might want to change that list)
As a very poly person, I’d say it’s not for everyone! I personally enjoy it because it involves a huge amount of open communication and honesty, which I really need in any type of relationship. It’s not as if someone starts trying it and then loses all ability for jealousy, it’s more that you talk those feelings out right when they come up and deal with them. (For me, it also helps when I become close with my partner’s other partners. It’s not about the one person not being “enough” for you, or anything like that; it’s about acknowledging that you can love people the same amount but for different reasons and in different ways, and that sometimes you can get different things from different people and it all adds up into getting everything you need. Consent, communication, and extreme honesty are the most important factors.
I don’t think it’s just society, any more than it’s only society that keeps people straight. Polyamory is just not something everyone wants or can actually handle. The default state for humanity seems to be serial monogamy, devoting all your love primarily to a single person at a time.
I find it unlikely that the jealousy issue is just societal. It seems inherent in us. Our morality values fairness, while our instincts want to focus on one romantic partner at a time.
Hence why it’s something you work on, and not something you override. It’s why poly relationships are so hard. I know so few people who have maintained them throughout their lives.
Polygamy only seems to work because it has a single head who authoritatively shuts down any complaints, and forbids divorce.
I don’t have any basic problem with polyamory and am probably mildly inclined that way.
OTOH, single relationships are hard enough to manage. Poly ones add a whole nother level.
. . . It may be hard, dude, but let’s avoid calling the social default in many cultures (not all, just many) ‘the normal way we were programmed to operate.’ It may seem normal to you, but my partner cannot function that way. When you say its natural for someone to want to devote all their love to one person, what you’re saying–and I understand you mean no harm, but it doesn’t change what you’re saying–that she feels is unnatural and that’s not a good message to send.
But, yeah, going into more depth, it definitely is a relationship structure that doesn’t work for everyone in the same way that a monogamous relationship structure doesn’t work for everyone. And it requires, much like monogamous relationships good consistent communication to succeed, because all relationships need that to work and when you multiply the relationships, that just multiplies in importance.
The basic structure is in the name, many loves, with the idea of there being multiple romantic relationships going on at the same time and with each party having the freedom to find the number of partners that works for them personally. It’s not to be confused with polygamy which is a sexist and often abusive religious system based on multiple women being subservient to a man and not allowed to date multiple people themselves.
And that can take multiple forms. One is “primary/secondary”, where you have one relationship that is more interconnected (with cohabitation or marriage or raising kids together) and then side relationships that more closely resemble casual dating. One is a couple dating a third as a couple (though this can run into the problem of unicorn hunting, which is when a man-woman pair seek out a bisexual woman to basically serve as an ancillary toy for the relationship which is usually cruel to the bisexual woman).
One is “relationship anarchy” where there are no set rules and you just let love and people’s preferred relationship structures dictate where each relationship is at (I’m a big fan of this one, but it requires a lot of communication
(even above normal polyamory) to make sure someone isn’t being left in the cold or that they actually want the relationship structure they are settling in.
And then there’s “triads”, which is what Grace/Mandy/Sierra look to be in. Where each of the three (and there are quads for four, pentads for five and so on…) are dating each other and trying to make a relationship structure work between them and none are really as seen as “more of a partner” than the others. There are also Vs where two people are dating one person, though that’s usually a single point on a massive web, because again, multiple people dating multiple people is the norm in this structure.
With regards to social discrimination. Yeah… there is. A lot. Honestly, I’d say it’s in a similar place as asexuality, where it’s flitting on people’s radars it’s a thing, but the bigots haven’t been actively organized around trying to destroy it yet. Which isn’t to say that bad things can’t happen. People can be thrown out of their homes for having a triad structure and people can be legally fired from a job if an employer finds out they’re poly.
And it’s very hard to find legal structures (especially for older poly folks) that protect multiple partners with regards to things like marriage benefits, after-death inheritance, being able to be present in a hospital during medical crisis (only one partner counts as legal “family” after all), and so on.
As for jealousy. Yeah, it’s a thing for people. Many poly people get jealous at times and things need to be talked out and possibly adjusted based on the responses. Metamours (the term for two people’s relationship to each other if they are both dating the same person) also need to have some working dynamic in some ways as issues can arise along that axis and it’s usually a lot better for jealousy if you know and like the partner your partner is with.
There is also “compersion”, which is a happy feeling resulting from a partner being happy from another relationship, which is super nice. Because it feels all warm to know your partner is happy and had fun even if you weren’t the source of that fun (and that can exist in mono relationships as well. Like for those in mono relationships, think of times you were happy because your partner went on a great outing with their friends and had tons of fun, that’s still compersion).
And people have different reasons for why poly works for them. For me, I don’t get jealous and I like love having the freedom to find it’s own space (which is very much me being a weirdo thing as most people experience jealousy) and I get really scared and anxious in monogamous relationships, because I feel like my asexuality is under a lot of pressure to perform lest I feel like I’m “robbing” someone of something (which isn’t true, but brains, yanno?). As such poly reduces a ton of the pressure to perform and so I feel more comfortable having sex when I do, because I know when something isn’t clicking or I’m not feeling up to giving that, they can go off and get those needs met somewhere else.
For my girlfriend, it’s being uncomfortable being someone’s “one and only” and liking instead to be a casual secondary on a more stable relationship where she’s friends with her metamour. For my fiancee and ex, it’s that they tend to fall in love with multiple people at the same time, and poly gives them the freedom to explore that.
But yeah, I believe that covers most of the things.
I actually get the impression from the wording in this strip that it’s more that Grace and Mandy have a secondary relationship with Sierra than that she’s part of a triad with them, but it’s totally open to interpretation. 🙂
@Cerberus
Thank you so much for your explanation of polyamory! It really validated my feelings and experiences; not experiencing jealousy, compersion, and feeling pressured as an ace person. It’s so wonderful to know that I’m not alone.
You’re very welcome. 🙂 And yeah, it’s why I really wouldn’t ever be able to go back to being mono (not that I was mono for very long).
And the pressure is insidious, because even if your partner is being totally awesome and non-pressuring, the structure of the relationship, at least for me, made me feel pressured in that I wanted to be a good girlfriend and that was a “crucial part of being a good girlfriend”, which was a lie I internalized thanks to assholes like Dan Savage.
The poly structure really removed the pressure and gave me more freedom to try things knowing that if it didn’t work out that was okay and I wasn’t barring something off forever in a partner’s experiences.
Thanks a lot for this detailed and complex (and very well explained) information about polyamory (and also for a lot of other comments, btw) – I’m learning a lot about life from reading the comments section for a long time now!
If you want an easy approach, poly relationships (actually, relationships in general) are a recurring theme in another webcomic I can recommend. http://gogetaroomie.com/
Decent drawings even in the first strip… heh, that’s funny…. A0www, that’s cute… Ooooh, I’m getting some girls with slingshots vibes from this. Best I bookmark it so I don’t…
…I have picked up yet another webcomic, haven’t I?
Joyce, here’s a bit of advice: Something about Sierra tells me that she and ‘serious’ don’t normally fit together. My advice is for you not to try to do so. The three of them are doing what they do and, if it breaks your brain, don’t think about it.
“Will you be our RA if you get to wear a crown?
Will you be it if we sing you praises,
If we spend time telling you how great you are,
If you get to wear a crown?
No, I’ll not be your RA, Joyce Brown,
Because you’re all a bunch of crazies,
Go away with that idea, go away far,
I’ll not be RA, Joyce Brown.”
I must say I didn’t expect Sierra and Grace to be kissing…or the fact that Sierra and Mandy do as well. But that’s cool. Even cooler that Joyce is more worried about the perceived cheating than the fact that two girls are kissing.
Could we not descend into the maddening depths of cannibalism? A Grace & Sierra sandwich already implies a horrible fate for both of those characters, but to willingly add yourself to such a twisted lunch?
Panel 1: Oof, oh man is this a genuinely nasty moment from Carla here.
I mean, I know what she’s referencing and it’s definitely a thing among some parts of the atheist community and it’s based on a real criticism of the Bible. Which is that God in the Bible is described, if you follow it literally and unchanging as every abusive father or partner you ever had, constantly hurting or harming to “teach a lesson” and then “accepting your apology” for his actions. And for “literalists” who believe that all relationships should mirror the perfection of the relationship between man and God, this often breeds a normalization of abusive relationships and frequently places religious barriers for folks trying to escape them (especially women) with that even extending at times to pastors saying it’s their wifely duty to suffer rape and abuse at the hands of their husbands, because that’s “godly”.
And it’s also based on the way Christian Dominionists believe their religion should be the law of the land and enforce that brutally on any group that is different or seen as unholy. Which would be an especially sore point for Carla based on what just happened to Trans kids like her based on that worldview.
And it would also be based on… well, her being abused by “Godly” youth and parents. Like, abusive Christians love stating that their hateful policies towards the other are acts of “love” and that they are just loving the sinner and hating the sin or are just trying to show “God’s love” by forcing a person into reparative therapy or otherwise abusing them (think Toedad’s entire arc). And in transphobic bullying, a lot of parents justify their discriminatory actions, banning kids from the rights to pee on these lofty ideas of “love” and “sympathy” for the trans kid’s “delusions”.
Not to mention she’s also just been abused by Mary, which isn’t likely the first Mary she’s encountered. But it was definitely a person who makes a lot of noise about how filled with Christ’s love she is while actively seeking to hurt or kill marginalized queer folks.
And that last part is interesting to me, because it draws a direct comparison between Carla and Roz. Both had terrible experiences with a “God chick” (Mary) that made them even more hostile to that worldview than they otherwise would be, and both have made nasty comments to Joyce based on that and based on seeing her as in alliance with folks like Mary.
And the thing is… yes, that’s what she was raised to be. But she’s in the process of escaping that and definitely does not hold the same hostility and resistance to growth as Mary and so these statements come across as unduly cruel (Roz reading Joyce the riot act on shared responsibility and Carla making a rather nasty comment about fundies and their ability to know the difference between love and abuse).
Both times it’s Joyce getting a nasty moment because Mary is such a douchebag. And I hope/think we’ll get more Joyce/Carla interactions going forward and Carla will be able to see that not every holy roller is irredeemable and going to turn on them the second she turns her back.
And it’s a perfectly nice and positive representation too, as opposed to the usual negative type. I mean, could you ask for a better representative for poly than Sierra? I think not.
I could be wrong, but I usually don’t see poly relationships depicted that way. Those kinds of relationships are far more common in media, but there’s rarely anything that specifically marks them as poly.
The genius David M Willis sure is great at poly representation in his webcomic Dumbing of Age, as opposed to the poor poly representation in the webcomic It’s Walky! by that asshole David M Willis.
I love how much Willis has grown on this and so many issues. And seeing that change in his comics in real-time.
Especially since I came from a bigoted area, so it’s nice to know that doesn’t stick to you forever and that some of my friends from that time have likely become Willis’s in their own communities.
Redemption and growth and learning are good.
… though all that said I’ll still critique the hell out of the poly representation in It’s Walky because holy fuck was it straight white man fantasy cranked up to 11. Especially with all the poly girls all so eager to jump Joe’s bones and him always being centered as a critical part of their dynamic. And *rants for ninety more minutes*
I’m noting Joyce’s small font and expression in Panel 1, and remembering from her revelation in church about Toedad that she understands (or at least had a moment of understanding within the past few days) the criticism of not knowing the difference between love and abuse. In terms of impact on Joyce, I think this is one more stone added to the pile.
Of course it’s nasty and based on assumptions about Joyce’s variant on Christianity. It’s unfair of Carla to do so.
She’s also right. Joyce was raised in that kind of church with that kind of blurring of love and abuse. It just didn’t really take on Joyce and she’s breaking out of it, though she’s likely to have scars from it for a long time.
Panel 2: And I love Joyce here. She’s just so sweet and earnest. And I think much like with Sarah, that’s going to be the undoing of a lot of Carla’s intentional mask of jerk. Cause Joyce sees right through that shit and talks directly to the core self. Also it’s just such a sweet sentiment when she’d be fully in her rights to say “fuck you”.
Panel 3: And that clearly penetrates with Carla based on the strength and lack of believability of her immediate response. It’s clear she carries a little bit of guilt about why there is currently no RA (based largely on what Billie said and not on feeling like it wasn’t the right call to make to save someone’s life) and it’s clear that Joyce’s sunny earnestness is the ultimate foe for Carla’s mask.
And I don’t think Carla has ever come across someone like her who genuinely has tried to reach out and connect and earnestly see her good actions over her front like this. And having that person be a Christian you are terrified will abuse you if they find out what you are likely just ups the stress of it.
But there’s also the obvious as well. Carla likes anarchy. She’s had terrible experience with authority figures and so lacking one in her mind tends to be a good thing. Whereas Joyce likes structures and rules or at least is very used to them so this state of affairs feels delicate and threatened by a collapse into something really bad for her and so she feels that shining, making the hall a better place is her way of fighting that and keeping everyone together*.
*Which might mean, we’ll see Joyce trying to “keep the peace” between a say Carla and Mary argument or a Mary and Billie argument and then learn from that that sometimes one side really is doing major wrong to the other, which would reinforce a lesson she learned dealing with her mom and with Toedad.
“Which might mean, we’ll see Joyce trying to “keep the peace” between a say Carla and Mary argument or a Mary and Billie argument and then learn from that that sometimes one side really is doing major wrong to the other, which would reinforce a lesson she learned dealing with her mom and with Toedad.”
Billie told everyone, which presumably includes Joyce, that Mary blackmailed Ruth and Billie and it led to Ruth’s hospitalization. Granted, we haven’t seen her reaction to that onscreen, but it feels like it would be a step back in her development to assume good faith on Mary’s part–certainly if she was having an argument with Billie.
I having the feeling that if Joyce catches Mary getting out of line, or even if Joyce just spends a little more time with Carla, then Mary might be the second character to receive a Joyce Punch!*
Panels 4-6: Canon! Poly! Which, I am so happy about. Especially because past depictions of “poly” were… ehhhh to say the least. With Squad 48 often serving as a fantasy idea of a harem orgy and a straight guy’s dream than actual polyamorous relationships (though there were some bright spots like Grace and Mandy’s love being shown brightly and the women of Squad 48’s strong beliefs in healthy communication).
And I love the statements of consent all around and that this does seem to be a happy stable casual triad. And that Grace and Sierra feel fully comfortable with Joyce about this and know that even if she’s freaking out, it’s coming from a place of being sheltered rather than a place of likely using this information to harass or harm them.
I also love that Joyce is freaking out about the “infidelity” rather than the same gender smooching. She’s really come a long way very quickly on her comfort level with queer relationships.
But most of all, I love the body language. Sierra and Grace fully absorbed in their kiss in Panel 4, Sierra’s happy smile and side hug of Grace while Grace answers Joyce’s accusation. And those held hands clasped together in Panel 6. There’s so much tenderness here shown in Grace and Sierra’s dynamic as well as implied tenderness between Sierra and Mandy as well. You can see the love or at least tender sexual connection between them and just how happy they are making each other and how comfortable they are being seen as they are.
And I wonder if part of that comfort is Mary getting shut down hard and knowing that Billie is ready to slap down Mary if she starts shit (after all, Billie talked to everyone on the floor about it), so they can be more open about their romantic relationships (it’s worth noting that we know implicitly that Grace and Mandy are intimate and in love, but we’ve never seen them showing public affection for each other or openly confirming the relationship like this in comic).
With the bigot gone, they can be out and free and themselves. And can show and speak that love in public. And that’s the beauty of a good society. Where people can be themselves and exist as themselves and if it harm none, do as they will and not have to fear backlash or violence.
And that terrifies bigots, because that works directly counter to the deliberate ignorance they try and instill people with. People coming out, being present, feels like an invasion, something to be stopped with violence so that all of “those types of people” disappear from public space and the angry bigot can believe they’ll go back to a casual ignorance where they forget people like that even exist*.
*This is also why bigots tend to swarm around popular works with marginalized representation in them and try and destroy them and their creators or try to make it harder for marginalized groups to form community to protect each other. Because the existence of these works or groups belies that ignorance and so must be destroyed. And it becomes brutal to any person who wants to exist and be seen as themselves rather than a normative mask to try and avoid getting beaten to death.
Could you please fill me in on a bit more detail on that? I’ve apparently been operating on the assumption that the only ‘protection’ (for lack of a better word) on comment sections were admins blocking and banning flamers and trolls after they made hateful comments. Is that what he”s been doing from the start, but he was able to erase their filth BEFORE we saw it?
Also, remember that the first time someone posts from a new IP, they don’t automatically get approved in this field. Most haters can’t disguise their stupid hatred, and thus tend to get weeded out right away. So yeah, he catches a fair few before we ever see it.
Sometimes he posts a screenshot on Tumblr before sending it to the trash.
I’m not poly myself, but one of my closest friends is, and they have a very healthy dynamic. And I love relationships that make people happy. Which is why I critique the hell out romantic comedies when brought to one (it’s time with friends that I rarely get nowadays) because a lot of the tropes involved are kinda unhealthy relationship wise. It’s also why I cry from joy a little whenever I see a really good romantic story where all parties involved work to make each other happy. As I once explained to someone who wondered why the 5’11” 250 lbs. guy was getting all teared up in a movie theater, “I love the practice of love.” Followed by a snarky “You got a problem with that?” It’s just…so nice to see multiple people happy because of each other.
So I bet Joyce is not really into open poly relationships?
I’m waiting for a comic strip where Joyce will try to imagine herself having a threesome and it would be readers vote in side poll who would be 2 lucky people she would be doing it with 😉
By the time she learns about that she will be so used to being scandalized so her reaction will be a completely anticlimactic
“Huh, OK, I didn’t know that was a thing but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing. Anyway, I wonder if it would be possible to add additional gravity connectors to the shoes. You great, I’m bug, etc, etc.”
Joyce is adjusting nicely. Previously, she would have been freaking out because two girls were kissing. Now she’s freaking out because the wrong two girls are kissing.
I don’t even know what I love more: Joyce’s Very Believable “I don’t know what you’re talking about” in the first panel, or the joyful and secure experience Sierra and Grace are having coming out. There is 0 wariness there, 0 holding back. They are scandalizing Joyce on purpose, and they are confident that no harm will come out of it, and the only consequence will be 1) Joyce being hilarious in the moment and 2) Joyce being securely on their side afterwards.
To be fair (wait, who is Toby Faire, anyway?), a really clever narcissist *ahem*myfather*ahem* can make abuse seem like love, and then make you seem like the abusive one.
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Nicely done, oh car of cars.
ANARCHY
Joyce seems to be under the impression that it’s the lack of an RA that’s causing this.
I’d love to see her expression if Ruth showed up and then just shrugged and joined in.
Who is this Ann Archy, and why is Joyce so obsessed with her?!
Is she related to Ana Chronistic, perhaps?
“Enquiring minds want to know!”
I think she’s Mal Arkey’s daughty
Mal Arkey married Mon Astic (nee Mon Arkey) and had four kids: Ann, Hier, Patri, and Matri.
Wait…Mal Arkey married another member of the Arkey family?
I think that was a typo – should have been ” Mon Arkey (nee Mon Astic)”
Not so much ‘typo’ as ‘confusing the use of ‘nee”, but, yeah.
Nee, I’m a horse
I think she is the cousin, or is that niece, to that one who gave their brain to science, Abby Normal.
It’s not proof by any measure, but judging by this comic, I would be at least a little surprised if Ruth turned out to be up for that. Although Billie might, were it not that Ruth may not be.
Or maybe I’m just making an ass of myself.
UNRAVELING!
FEMURS!
FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
HANNIBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!
FOOOOOOOOOOOLS!
BUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTSSSSSS!
ROBOT HOOOOOUUUUUSSSSSEEEEE!!!!
TETSUOOOOO!
KHAAAAAAAAAN!
WIIIIIILLMAAAAAAA!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!
(Happily surprised no one beat me to this)
SHAUUUUUUUN!
KAGOOOOOMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
ADRIAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN
Chief?
Gary?
C-C-C-COMBOBREAKERRRRRRR!
… Wait…
No, that’s pretty accurate.
EEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLL!
RIP Ernest Borgnine.
start9
Anarchy or riot! Riot or riot!
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SERVE DOME! REMEMBER THIS!
PRAISE HELIX!
OLDEN D=
There, I was beaten to the TPP joke, but I still have the most obscure one.
ANARCHYYYYYY!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjqkzDKESsY
Did somebody phone in a request for Sex Pistols?
Nah. I listen to ’em enough. I was the request for D City Rock :p
Nope that was request for Sexy Girls Shooting Machine Guns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii6k6pLdu5Q Some “interesting” videos in the suggested list after the video finished running
No, but I think Squirrel Nut Zippers’ Hell might be apropos.
I called in for Nirvana.
in my day, we called that swapping spit
If your tongue was free to call it anything, you weren’t doing it right.
I am delighted that Joyce’s first complaint here is infidelity.
She’s made remarkable progress and I’m very proud. Acceptance of PDA doesn’t feel like a realistic goalpost for her, regardless of genders involved, though.
She’s been stated to be autobiographical. I feel like she’ll learn. Just a feeling though.
Okay, fine, but to reframe: Not a realistic goalpost within the comic working on the assumption that we’re looking at a finite lifespan in which we can read it and the current timeline progression. I don’t know if it’ll hit Halloween before the end of the decade.
Same here!
This! She’s like: You Can’t Cheat on Your Girlfriend!
I love character development.
That’s one of the things I feel like Willis does best — his characters can change while still being the same person underneath. A lot of writers either botch up their character development so characters will suddenly feel like a completely different person, throwing the reader out of the story, or are so afraid of that that they don’t do any character development at all. Willis manages to strike a balance, which is even more impressive considering the storylines are all heavily character-driven, and developing a character too soon in a character-driven story will mess up the pacing.
So that’s what Walky bug eyes look like on Joyce.
The real question here is whether there’s an upper limit on how far Joyce’s freak-out faces can go.
…the limit does not exist!
how many react faces does joyce have? ALL
No, the limit exists, it’s just infinite. (DNE is something else entirely.)
This ends the Pedantic Calculus Announcement.
Actually, the limit doesn’t exist, because the function is a solution to the equation Ay”+By’+Cy=0, where B^2<4AC.
The solution still exists! It’s just not a REAL solution…
No, there’s a real solution, of the form y=e^(µt)(D*sin(vt)+E*cos(vt)). It just doesn’t have a real LIMIT as t->∞ for any solution except the critical point y=0 (D=0, E=0). The other solutions have defined limits for complex infinities of t.
I sincerely would not mind the PCA becoming a thing.
Hmmm, none of the convergence definitions I can currently recall allow for the limit to be infinite.
http://m.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=lim+x+as+x-%3Einfinity&x=0&y=0
The simplest example.
That’s because if it goes to infinity it’s not converging on anything.
Mean Girls quotes are always relevant
This has been a good week for Joyce faces.
Becky is going to be pissed that she missed this one, though.
See my comment further down. Or, since I made a lot of comments, search the page for the phrase “ironic, if true.”
Poster idea: 8×10 grid of one-panel Joyceisms.
I have to admit, this was not the earth-shattering revelation I was expecting Joyce to have today, but I guess it was just as inevitable.
I think Sierra is the person I aspire to be.
Joyce had all parameters, SHE HAD ALL PARAMETERS FOR SHIPPING. Turns out she needs to upgrade in MULTIPLE dimensions. Joyce now has to ship ALL THE SHIPS!!!!!
“What? You can ship more than two people??? This changes EVERYTHING!!”
“TO THE DRAWING BOARD…. Becky, apropos nothing, do you like pancakes AND waffles?”
“…I’m gonna go with a yes.”
Becky: “Oh, I like crepes, too!”
Joyce: “I do not know what to do with that information.”
Joyce: [explodes]
Just wait until she learns about the difference between sexual and romantic attraction.
“THAT’S IT, I’M SWITCHING TO COMPUTING. I WILL BE ABLE TO ACCOUNT FOR ALL PARAMETERS IF IT IS THE LAST THING I DO!!!!!”
5 minutes later: “You have GOT to be kidding me.”
https://xkcd.com/592/
Honestly I should have thought of that sooner.
You are awesome and I am a bug.
A software bug?
Presumably.
There’s also sexual attraction to inanimate objects.
IF you ascend higher you can SHIP THE SHIPS THEMSELVES!
No!
That’s like multiple layers of inception! If you go down that far you fall off into limbo!
The only way to recover from that is to wake up!
WAKE UP SHIPLE!
Oh man, she’s gonna find out about OT3s and OT4/5/6/infinite numbers and the fanfiction world is not going to be ready^^
OT7billion
That is not a good idea.
I saw that one. The End of Evangelion.
(Can’t find a good clip of that part, sorry.)
Wait till she realizes that this means that WalkyxDorothy does not inherently derail WalkyxBillie.
So… Best DoA strip ever, or Even Better Than Best DoA Strip Ever?
It’s really good, but lacks Becky, so I give it 3 out of a possible 4 perfect cinnamon rolls
i am ranking it quite high myself, but i might be colored since it is amazingly topical to things happening in my real life right now. UNRAVELLING
OH by the way Fart Captor, what is the origin of your name? apparently it slipped into my subconcious bsubconsciousecause i mayyyy have registered it as a new subdomain recently
If I recall correctly, it was because mine was taken.
Well, that’s why I picked it, but not where it came from. With my first choice taken and “Boner Farts” feeling a little too immature, I had to consult my ancient list of user name ideas (which I have because I don’t like to use the same one everywhere, but I’m bad at coming up with them)
…boner farts is a pretty good’un
I can’t actually remember if it’s something I thought up myself, or if I heard it somewhere. I feel like it may have resulted from me mishearing or misreading something, but I dunno.
Either way, it stuck in my head as an excellent butt euphemism, and then I started using it as a user name here and there
You could have misheard Card Captor Sakura, the name of an anime series.
I asked about that earlier, and put a picture of Becky dressed as Sakura on DeviantArt.
Those were dark times.
Speaking of mishearing or misreading:
I keep reading it as “Fart Copter”.
I have one of those, but I never use it. By the time you reach your destination, you are incredibly unwelcome for some reason
Nah, Mary didn’t get decked in it. But it’s damn close otherwise.
Maybe Willis should set up his webpage with a big red button á la Saturday Morning Breakfast Cartoon that gives a bonus panel… And the bonus panel is Mary getting decked. Every. Single. Time.
It alternates between Mary and Ryan.
Toedad and Blaine show up once a month for their beatings, too.
The beatings will continue as long as morale improves.
Logic error, like with “Bill Gates is richer than any man alive.”
Awwwww, but Grace and Sierra are so cute, Joyce! And Mandy said it was okay!
Those eyes in the last panel…. They scare me.
The darkness is coming.
There’s a superluous ‘the’ in Joyce’s bubble in panel 3, right?
Indeed there is.
At least until DYW sees this comment and then fixes it, so that your comment will then look weird.
Already fixed! That was quick, Mr Willis 😉
I still see it.
You can’t unsee it!
Quick, save the image for posterity!
yep. “fight the back the tide”
Wow, he’s fast. I wish I had been able to see that in time, but my Internet failed me the first few minures, and then it was too late. o-o
For the record, the speech bubble declared, “fight the back the tide of anar-“
This time, let’s keep Joe out of the equation.
She’s getting better. Her reaction to seeing them kissing isn’t about the fact that they’re women but her perception Grace cheating.
I wonder when she’ll bump up against her “tolerance wall”.
Her what?
When she’ll encounter something that causes her to reach the limits of her tolerance for behaviours she was taught are wrong forcing a crisis of faith ala Becky’s coming out.
More than that, where her preconcieved notions win out.
I think we’ve seen ample evidence in the comic that that simply is not going to happen, in the end.
She bumped up against her tolerance wall when she met Toedad and John, respectively.
Turns out she’s got no tolerance for horrible people.
TBF, that’s a reasonable reaction. She assumed a closed relationship. It’s not guaranteed, but it’s kinda the default.
Her reaction after hearing that this ISN’T cheating is what’s hilariously intolerantly ignorant.
(Yes, I’m putting a stake in the ground on this. Intolerance CAN be funny, even if it usually isn’t.)
Intolerance can be funny when nothing is being harmed but the intolerant person’s delicate sensibilities about other people’s sex lives.
Yup, that’s what makes it punching up instead of punching down.
That’s the difference between making bigoted jokes and making the bigoted into jokes. It’s what PewDiePie didn’t understand.
This. 100%!
When you make “ironic” bigoted jokes, then people learn to normalize bigotry and that hiding behind “I was only kidding” is a great pose for getting away with bigoted harassment.
When you mock bigotry and make that the joke, it makes the bigoted more hesitant to cling to their hatreds. That’s what the Superman comic did with the KKK, making all the KKK’s airs and actions into a joke for their kids to laugh at, having that presented as the clear bad guys to Superman’s righteousness.
And it can be disarming in a way that direct confrontation can sometimes not be. Like “oh ha ha that’s silly… wait. Oh, that is silly and dumb and I should probably stop doing that.”
The trick is doing the latter without also doing the former.
“The affirmative reply from Cerberus…
“…it fills you with VALIDATION.”
THAT’S the phrasing I was struggling to find to express the difference.
Honestly Joyce looks less “shocked” here and more “robot with disintegrating faux flesh covering.” Also, good things happen to Sierra! I like Sierra.
Five Nights at Galasso’s
OMG XD
It could work. Heck, maybe we could get the Living Tombstone to write a song about it.
“I can inflate balloons. I can make ice-cream.”
Yeah, Sierra is always nice and kind and understanding in her depictions so far so it’s nice seeing her finding things that feel nice to her.
Apparently so do both Mandy and Grace.
I hope Joyce never stops finding new things to freak out about ^_^
If we all put our minds to it, we can keep inventing more forever!
No need to. We haven’t even hit the 3σ range yet with intro polyamory, let alone the much wider variety of relationship styles that crop up beyond that.
I’m sure the people on her floor has it covered.
I mean, if Cerberus is right about Roz being somehow nonbinary, then you’re not wrong as far as QUILTBAG-related freakouts are concerned.
After that, we’ll need to think of new ways to get her to freak out. Maybe she finds postmodern literary theory jarring?
Enbys in DoA, 2017.
Annnnnd that’s my new campaign slogan!
Cerberus For RA
We have a winner!
“Stop, evildoer. I will now give you a detailed socionormative analysis of the ramifications of your behavior.”
That is distressingly close to my discipling style with the students.
Can’t say I’m surprised you have disciples, tbh
:V
Hmmmm. I wonder if I can get away with calling my students “evildoers”
The DoA should make a poll about this:
What will be the next thing that makes Joyce freak out in an adorkable manner?
I think her freakage-bar is going to keep getting raised in a Cerebus-effect sort of way.
Like, by 2030 (meaning Christmas Break), she’ll be freaking out over being a Rocky Horror Virgin Sacrifice.
Damnit. Now I’m imagining the cast all going to see RHPS and trying to figure who is dressed as whom… well, besides Joyce as Janet, Becky as Columbia and Mike as Rif.
ethan as rocky and either amber or danny as frankenfurter?
Now we just need Marcie and Guns.
NO GUNS EVER
PETTY REFUSAL AT EVERY TURN.
This wouldn’t be a bad alternative for Marcie if things went bad with Malaya, though, I’ll grant you that.
Grace’s face in panel six just screams ‘I did not set this up, but I am enjoying the reaction’.
Also, Joyce is cool with Grace and Mandy off the bat enough to care about potential cheatings? Oooh~
Heh, yup. More people than Becky and Walky have discovered the joys of Joyce’s freakout face.
Oh FUCK YEAH
Gasp – POLYNESS.
Poly Ness? So you read my fanfic?
Oh Mother!
Another reason to keep Joe as far away from this wing as possible.
Oh my god, Joyce’s panic face is even crazier than before. I love it. XD
The poor girl is gonna explode or something, I swear.
Right now, I half expect lasers to come out of her eyes. But yeah, this will definitely not be her last eye-opener/exploder. She’s got a long way to go on her journey, which only means even more freak-out panels. I look forward to it!
I’m still crossing my fingers that she gets the Jocelyne revelation soon, maybe next weekend (in comic).
Also, that’s a nice Other Rachel sequence you’ve got there, it’d be a shame if something were to happen to it.
Willis said he a) just finished this arc that runs until June and b) Joyce is an ancillary character this storyline. So I’m guessing no further big revelations for Joyce until after June at least
IRL June, not IC June, right?
Is this the first Joyceface where the blue iris is shown, and she also goes “big panic eyesocket”?
For example, contrast this:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/femurs/
Appears so. All we need is a red background and the trifecta of shock will be complete. 😛
Is “quadrifecta” a word? Because when the color.drains from Joyce’s face…
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/personal/
I wasn’t aware she had any more color to lose (I mean, she’s probably more white than I am, and that’s saying something). o-o And yes, that needs to be added too.
Also, it appears that there isn’t anything called a quadrifecta, although there is apparently a word in horse racing called “superfecta” that is based on picking the first four winners of a horse race in order. Of course, nobody said we couldn’t invent the word quadrifecta right here. 😛
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/criminal/ No, no blue but worth it anyway.
Is this the beginning of the Lesbian Singularity?
*Walkyverse Dina pops out of singularity* “Ah, it appears we have a Class 2010 anomaly this time.”
*Walkyverse Leslie pops out next to her* “What does that mean? What’s the difference?”
*Dina and Becky approach*
*Dina and Dina share a meaningful gaze*
Leslie: “So, we’re all college students in this universe? That doesn’t make—”
*Leslie spies convenient and anachronistic newspaper lying on the ground with a cover story about her and Robin, sighs* “I guess some things never change.”
Hey, the IDS made an appearance a few in-universe weeks ago, so obviously newspapers aren’t anachronistic here. Yet. 😛
But a few weeks ago was YEARS ago.
But years ago was a few weeks ago, due to wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey…stuff.
That sentence got away from you there, didn’t it?
No. Not yet. But you know how science fiction seems to love cramming in a species made entirely of sexy bisexual space babes? Humanity could very well be that species in a thousand years or so. We have the beginnings of the technology to produce embryos from two egg cells (so far we’ve done it in mice with a very low success ratio), and the initial space colonies that humans create will most likely require people of various ethnicities and racial identities to procreate in order to keep said initial small colonies from devolving into increasingly inbred sub species. Then, if all interstellar travel were to be cut out for around two or three thousand years, by the time earth came into contact with one or more of said small colonies once more, we could very well find a new human species made entirely of females with skin colors being various shades of “mocha” for lack of a better adjective. Of course, that’s just one possibility of speculation and I’m personally biased in favor of genetic manipulation for the betterment of humankind and with the additional bias towards matriarchal and matrilineal societies, so take my wishful speculation with a grain of salt. I mean, I’m also pretty sure that the first sentient AI created by the singularity is going to want a humanoid body because it will be curious about sex having come into existence surrounded by decades of porn, so I might be a bit out there.
You… seem to spend a fair amount of time thinking about the possibility of a lesbian singularity.
And nowhere near as much time formatting that wall of text so as to be legible. Add some whitespace and break it up! There’s a reason formal essays are double-spaced. I mean, beyond the increasingly-antiquated “it’s easier to mark up that way.”
Sorry about that. I’ve always had horrid typing skills. Plus for some reason my IPod doesn’t want to recognize attempts at pressing “return” more than once, making paragraphs horrid. I’m also on my fifth cup of coffee for my night shift job, so I’m a little too hyper and typing almost faster than I can think.
I think you can force it to add line breaks by pressing period, spamming space, and then doing the whole process a couple more times. It’ll look weird, but it’ll be way easier on the eyes.
Nothing wrong with that.
Mainly I like to think about the possibilities of human biological evolution, and the lesbian singularity makes up about a third of the scenarios. I kid you not. Mainly because once creating an embryo from two egg cells is perfected, males such as myself are quite simply no longer needed for the species to survive, and thus completely 100% expendable.
I’ve dated girls who felt that.
Hell, I married two of them! It…was not a pleasant decade of my life wasted.
That’s a little biologically reductive but from an evolutionary standpoint not entirely inaccurate.
In case it needs to be said, your value as an individual is far more than simply producing zygotes.
You’re talking about making the species entirely dependent on high technology to reproduce (because lesbians!!! I guess). That has the effect of turning anything that threatens that high-tech infrastructure from “a problem” to “a single-generation extinction event”. That is not a recipe for evolutionary success.
From a continuation-of-the-species standpoint, there’s something to be said for two people being able to make more people using just their own bodies. Having other options is nice, but it’s still good to be able to fall back on the basics when the power goes out.
We passed the tech-dependence threshold some time back from a practical point of view. Now it’s speed up all the way down until we hit the lesbian singularity.
If you’re that far into technology, why not genetic engineering that allows for changeable sex?
I mean, in The Culture people just switch genders when they feel like it. We already have the tech for individual gene editing, we just need to know more about what we’re editing and how to have that change reproduced across the entire body.
The propogation of genotype changes into phenotypic expression across an entire organism is debatably implausible after a certain point. I’d suggest maybe you have 7 to 10 days after fertilization before it becomes impossible due to the wide spread differentiation of cells and absolutely by weeks 9 to 12 when the embryo passes the developmental boundary to be called a fetus at which point all the parts are there, though not in their final places nor fully developed.
Viral vectors and/or pre modification for later changeability. Hell, you could build in the switch mechanism entirely.
Of course, The Culture is post scarcity, so you can have entire planets if you want. The Culture does frown on such wasteful energy usage though.
Actually, its worth noting that we already can make certain genetic modifications in adults to treat cancer. Using modified AIDS viruses to reprogram T cells to recognize cancer cells that it previously couldn’t detect is a real treatment that has successfully cured- 100% cured- a handful of leukemia cases.
Not every bodily system is as easily targeted (immune system is simple because blood delivers the virus wherever it needs to go), but its certainly an existing model for adult genetic modification.
Love the Culture series (Iain Banks), which is like Star Trek with real AIs, who end up running most things.
Of course, there’s also the minor detail that just because you come up with some high-tech solution to female only reproduction, producing an entirely XX population, that doesn’t make them all lesbians. From what we know of how sexual orientation works, you’ll still have a large percentage who aren’t sexually or romantically interested in other women.
Of course, I guess that’s why they’re always “sexy bisexual space babes” falling all over the first manly Earth hero who shows up.
You will also have a small population of transmen to deal with.
*siren blares*
TRANS MEN IS TWO WORDS
*seralb neris*
Well it is two words now, but English as she is spoke, she marches invariantly onward, assimilating and laying waste to vast grammars in her wake, invariably approaching the lesbian singularity beyond which no man can see.
No, as a single word it’s actually a slur, since it would be used as an alternative to “men”, disqualifying the notion that trans men are men. When trans is a separate adjective, that idea is intrinsically reinforced; when the two words form a single, separate noun, it’s divorced from a naïve interpretation of the sentence. And we all know that there is no shortage of naïve people.
Hmm. Good point. My number of charted scenarios for human evolution just increased. Quick! To the speculation on how advanced gene-therapy and chromosome manipulation can become!!
“You will also have a small population of transmen to deal with.”
Dang. None of the SF I’ve read goes anywhere near this.
“lesbian singularity” a phrase I never expected to hear but and happy I have
*am
Why in blazes would you not bring some sperm? Retaining low tech reproductive options is a common sense choice for any society.
They’ll keep it frozen in various labs, much as we do the smallpox virus.
I love Joyce’s freak out faces, they’re the best.
they really are lol
Is there an extra ‘the’ in the third panel text, it didn’t read right to me?
I see I was correct and it has been fixed. Text patrol to the rescue!
This is everything I’ve been needing.
Oh man, time for Poly 101
I’ll get my slides!
I’m not sure if I’m for or against this brand of anarchy.
Please provide more examples – LOTS of them – so I can be sure.
Man, I love everything about this one. Everything. Joyce’s sheltered mind getting blown, one queer thing at at time 😀
And if this seems like a lot to her, well, so far it’s ALL been sexuality-related. She hasn’t had mind-blowing revelations about gender OR disparities between sexual and romantic attractions. By 2024, scientists predict that the remaining stimuli capable of producing blasphemous shock in Joyce Brown will by necessity produce black holes with enough intrinsic negative energy to sustain warp fields sufficient for faster-than-light interstellar travel for a moderate crew capable of short-term survivability.
I get the feeling romantic attractions won’t phase her much. She seems like she’s already got a dichotomy between ‘love’, which is good and pure and brings her closer to the lord, and ‘attraction’, which can only lead to a cragged pit of lustwolves and anarchy.
Except she thinks the love is tied to the attraction, it’s just that the attraction should only be expressed (physically) within marriage. Love without the sexual attraction wouldn’t work for her in the long run, however much she might think it would make it easier now.
Wait til she actually learns that all the science she’s been denying is really true…
The only anarchy here is your eyes Joyce. They look demonic.
Those eyes don’t so much as say ‘I’m alarmed’ than ‘I’m mutating into an extremely powerful & unstable supervillain.’
Well, we all know that is Joyce’s eventual fate.
The DOA anti-Joyce bringing about the lesbian singularity
“The Alarmist” sounds like a good supervillain name.
…. until you try to figure out what powers to give her that don’t make her just completely silly.
…what about causing people to freak out in alarm over the most common, insignificant things (“aaah, I’m surrounded by a gaseous mixture primarily consisting of nitrogen and oxygen!” “aaah, it’s raining outside!”) and making them so alarmed by those things that they don’t notice her actual evil plan to [insert evil plan here]?
If it’s a villain that Randall Munroe would come up with, then it’s completely silly. And “aaah, I’m surrounded by a gaseous mixture primarily consisting of nitrogen and oxygen!” is a villain that Randall Munroe would come up with.
Hmmmmm. Maybe “alarmist” should refer less to superpower and more to M.O. Cause chaos and anarchy by spreading fear over small things, like lead in drinking water rising to one thousandth of toxic levels. Mmmm… oh, and she could draw emotional-based energy from people, like a sort of psychic anxiety-vampire who could get a free meal just by saying “psychic anxiety-vampire” to a large room of people.
Made a character like that once. His whole thing was that he could “feed” on emotions of those around him. Any emotion really, so he could feed on happiness and stuff, but he discovered that fear, pain, and despair were more tasty so he decided to be glutton and destroy the world, then use the power he gains from all the negative emotion in order to try to become god and make a new world where every living creature was always in agony and whatnot.
…my characters are a bit messed up
But if he’s truly eating, ie, consuming it, wouldn’t he create a zone of happiness around him wherever he goes?
I’m calling it…she’s gonna become a Decepticon one of these days.
I’ll happily give Joyce credit for being concerned, since she’s treating Mandy and Grace’s relationship as important and legitimate, even if she doesn’t understand the parameters. It shows how far she’s come from the start of the comic.
Carla’s comment in panel 1 is kind of over the line from “lovable jerk” to “actually kinda shitty” but I guess that’s subjective and she’s trying to push Joyce away.
Considering what people of faith have put Carla through, I’d say it’s at worst “jerkish but understandable”, and based on Joyce’s reaction it’s also “on point”.
Well, “understandable for this person given the circumstances” doesn’t mean it’s a good/not shitty thing to say.
It’s a pretty shit thing to say to an abuse victim though.
Carla doesn’t see fundies as abuse victims. She sees them as abusers. Because they have been her abusers.
Emily is talking about the actual tentative of sexual abuse on Joyce at the party.
Of course Carla didn’t think about that, but I can guarantee that joking about any kind of abuse to someone who’s been through it might be quite triggering, even if it’s something totally unrelated.
Like when a friend makes a really bad joke and you give him the usual “please go hang yourself” for it, then remembers that one of his parents committed suicide two months ago.
As adorable as Joyce is, Carla just dropping her jerk shield entirely so quickly would be kinda surprising.
It’s only a matter of time though. Nobody can withstand that smile for long
1. Yes – thank you for giving me this thought.
2. Ehhh, Carla might be being a little rude about it, but she’s really not even close to wrong.
Oh very much. It’s a cruel thing to say, especially to someone’s face.
Like I get why she did it. And what background this is coming from (I mean, I had my douchey atheist phase where I likely said similar before i mellowed out to my current live and let live atheism).
Doesn’t make it nice or right. But I get it.
As someone who makes this kind of sarcasm often and gets a lot of shit for it, I’m actually surprised that the comment section is so blissfully unaware that Carla’s line in the first panel may be a bit rude to someone who is still recovering from a tentative of actual abuse.
Metaphorical bricks have been thrown at me for less than that :p
this storyline just got ten times better
Woo! Polyamory! Time for Joyce to learn more!
Joyce’s eyes remind me of Sans. She indeed is having a bad time.
Well, Sans DOES coin *spoilers*, which lines up with Carla’s comment in panel 1…
I can’t wait to see someone try to explain polyamory to Joyce! This shall be fun. Although I do worry if she will be able to wrap her head around it or if she will dive headfirst back into the nearest Bible and have to be pried out.
Headfirst into the Bible: “Wait, so, which one of you is the concubine?”
Lmao! Oh yeah. That sounds how she would come out of it.
Joyce: “But this is against God’s will! Let me find a verse—”
Joyce, five minutes later: “Wait, Solomon had HOW many wives!?”
“And HOW MANY CONCUBINES?!?!?!
ANARCHY IN THE BIBLE!”
ERROR! ERROR! PARADOX DETECTED! SYSTEM WILL SHUT DOWN IN 3… 2… 1…
Wait a minute… Why are we spending time thinking about this when we could just be delighted about Sierra smooching Mandy -and- Grace?
I can do both, thank you very much.
Although right now I should probably be thinking of my Spanish homework that’s due *checks watch* today.
I have two overdue essays, a late project, and a PSA that was due yesterday.
I don’t really care.
Because some of us are jealous of and for fictional characters.
But they all had only one Solomon. Big difference for Joyce.
“No, Sierra, Grace is supposed to work for Mandy’s dad for seven years until you two are allowed to smooch.”
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.
The merefalcon cannot hear the falconer.
The merefalcon cannot hear the merefalconer, damnit.
Joyce! Your FAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!
Joyce: “Doooooooorothy. Grace and Sierra say there can be THREE-girl hankypanky. Can it?”
Dorothy: “Huh? Yes, polyamory is not that uncommon and there are many different ways it can be organized. It is not restricted to same-gender relationships of course.”
Walky: “So you can totally bang Dorothy. I’m cool with it.”
*scandalized Joyce-face*
For how many months have you been waiting to use that comment, Bagge?
WAITING, since yesterday.
HOPING… for about as long as Walky has teased them about it.
Soo… Since this strip, then, best I can tell.
Which incidentally happened less than a week after I arrived in the states to move in with my absolutely wonderful wife!
I’m quite fond of their first date as well
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/boo/
Yup. The longer this comic goes on the more big life events can be connected to it.
Once again: We need a thumbs up option for comments!!!
You writing it is much more satisfying. 🙂
Walky: “But… wait, how do you show up with a U-Haul to two different houses at the same time?”
Dorothy: “THAT’S NOT HOW IT WORKS!”
Walky: “How do YOU know?”
Dorothy: “RESEARCH!”
Walky: “And WHY were you researching this?”
Dorothy: “Because a president should know how large swathes of citizens live their lives and… wait, what are you implying?”
Meanwhile, Joyce’s hiccups have returned writ large.
Soooo… Who wants Sierra in a Slipshine now?
…and Grace, and Mandy.
Without shoes, of course.
Becky: “AND WITHOUT HATS!”
Maybe Sierra likes to wear shoes during intimate moments as a kink…
So, she’s less into tops and more into uppers?
Sierra is always my vote
Willis, you devious marketing genius, you.
That’s it! This whole comic is just a ploy for Willis to take our money and *scandalized gasp* earn a living wage! How un-American! He should stop performing tasks with pecuniary motivation and get a job!
(Clarification: This snark is not directed at you, MM. Your comment just started this chain of thought in my head, because I’m like that sometimes.)
I never didn’t before.
AN-AR-CHY!! AN-AR-CHY!!
Random question to readers because I’m curious. Does anybody remember how they found out about polyamory (not to be confused with Mormon polygamy) or were polyamorus?
Webcomics, I reckon. At some point in learning about it I got into Kimichi Kuddles anyway.
I had to Google what Kimichi Kuddles was XD
Yeah. I think comic do a great job introducing people to a lot of information in a positive way that would normally be shown negatively or with some type of stereotype.
Robert Heinlein I think.
In a way not completely unlike Sierra.
You made out with Grace and Mandy?!?!
Someone asked me to make out with both of them.
I made a Joyce-face and took them up on the offer!
Lol! Ah the Joyce face. But gotta love that you recovered so quickly from horror to a shrug.
I’m still trying to figure out who asked Bagge to make out with both Grace and Mandy.
Honestly? I don’t remember if I found out externally. I knew about the Mormons, and also about some “one man, several viwes” cultures, but these things never seemed right to me as such…
…But if several people based on full and mutual respect and love for one another would want to try it, then sure, no worries, right?
But that may be me casting myself in the best possible light. Can’t really say for sure that’s how it happened.
There is a long history of emperors casting themselves in the best possible light 😉
Seriously though. Not everybody remembers when they found out something, especially if it’s something they found out young or that wasn’t a big deal for them. 🙂
I’d wager that most American’s initial learning about polyamory is heavily tied to both Mormon Polygamy and Crazy-Ass-Cult Polygamy
You hear about CAC Polygamy because… it’s major news stuff at times, and it’s one of those “Evil religious cults heavily tied to sex” things that media just can’t get over.
Then you learn about Mormon Polygamy which (at least as intended and is likely how it’s practiced by many I don’t want to talk long about something that I don’t know enough about) is like CACP but without the evil and abuse and rape and shit.
And then you learn about Polyamory, which is like MP, but less rigid, less gender-specific and a whole lot more attractive to certain fanfic communities.
It’s a major aspect of context to learning about those subjects, and probably why so many struggle with it: They’re still not used to thinking flexibly about sexuality.
Very true. That’s why I asked for when people found out about the more positive inclusive respectful modern polyamory. A lot of people hear about the cult polygamy and Mormon polygamy and the negative connotations that come with them. Finding out that it can be respectful and equal instead of objectifying women and/or heavily religious can really turn a lot of preconceived notions on their heads.
I found out as a teen when there was some kind of short documentary (like 20 or 30 minutes) style thing on tv and that week they followed a married couple. The woman had a serious relationship and a boyfriend and I think the man had 2 girlfriends and was about to go out on a date. The closest thing I ever heard of before to it was Mormon polygamy, swinging, and cheating and this was not that. They were even all friends! My poor indoctrinated closed off mind just couldn’t make it make sense and I didn’t have Internet to research it. I was so nieve back then XD
I had a friend in school who had two boyfriends, who both knew about each other. That was the first time I heard of it. I remember asking her ‘and they’re not jealous?’ She said ‘not of each other’, which is an answer I still super love, almost twenty years later 😀
Oh my god! I do to. So perfect. ^_^
I don’t recall. I think I remember hearing about gods having multiple wives in mythology of some sort? Or a cartoon? Anime? Some sort of creature with two wives?
I don’t remember.
I adore mythology myself. It’s all so fascinating.
i saw that too, but i didn’t connect it to Polygamy cause it sounded like more “the gods are assholes” type antics than anything
An MTV special, many years ago.
That’s certainly an interesting place. When it was about music, when it was sorta about music, or after becoming mostly reality tv?
Heinlein. Then Lackey. Also how I found out that hetero was not the only option. Was eleven or twelve. Am currently queer and poly, bet my poor conservative parents wish they’d monitored my reading more carefully, but one was a ‘grandmaster of scifi’ so dad approved and the other was about magic horses so totally innocent. 🙂
When did Lackey mention poly? …
Hm, I never applied poly to the hawkbrothers, but well, yeah…
Must be because she became so inexplicably explicit about describing hawkbrothers marriages in later books (when did she turn conservative anyway?)
Her urban fantasy novel KNIGHT OF GHOSTS AND SHADOWS ends with the three protagonists getting together, and they’re a functional trio in the sequel. …then she got a different cowriter and they broke up, but I pretend those books didn’t happen.
I don’t know if that was my introduction to the concept of non-patriarchal polyamory or not, but I’m pretty sure it was the first time I saw it in fiction. Though it could have been Heinlein; I read FRIDAY pretty early.
Pretty sure i hated her co-writer. if this is the guy she wrote that Owl series with,
There was a lifebonded poly triad of heralds, side characters in I forget which of the valdemar books.
There was also the potential of a triad in the first of the Arrows of the Queen books. THere was a lesbian couple, and one of them died during a mission, leaving the other lost in despair since she’d been in mental contact with her partner as she was dying. So Talia, the queen’s herald (and main char of the triology) went and found another girl who’d been in love with both of them for a while, to help anchor her. And the first girl made it clear that she felt it a pity the girl never said anything before, since they would have both welcomed her in their relationship.
Heinlein may have been my first exposure as well.
Then college.
Yup, reading Heinlein was my first exposure to it as well, was a teenager at the time. Also have found some webcomics where the central characters are poly.
I certainly have too, but I read Heinlein long before webcomics.
Before “web”, in fact.
His chain marriages had a certain amount of plausability.
When I was in elementary school, Tamora Pierce taught me all the things my parents missed. By middle school, Mercedes Lackey taught me the rest. Smuggled in in the guise of magic horses, of course.
I love your story! And even if you came away knowing you were cis het, at least you would have known something 🙂
Also, my goodness so much love from so many readers for a book I’ve never heard of! That’s certainly uncommon for me.
doesn’t Heinlein also have characters who time travel and get together with their own moms? I’m all for “it’s cool so long as no one gets hurt”, but incest is a bit far
It was webcomics. They did it.
Naughty webcomics! Always filling our heads with information and cultures our parents and schools tried so hard to shelter us from!
same here. Go Get a Roomie had the first one, though I didn’t understand the term or really get how it could work until I found out about Polygems and realized how well that could work. It was my favorite ship ever for a long time and is still up there.
Although honestly, all the stuff i didn’t get beforehand was explained to me by Changeling: Malibu Dream House, which is a forum thread containing a variety of in-character journals from an ongoing Changeling: the Lost (a tabletop game) Chronicle. There are only two or so major characters I can think of that aren’t polyamorous in that game, and two PCs and two major NPCs have an all-girl romantic quartet that is also an open relationship with with 3 out of 4 of them also involved in one or more loving relationships of various levels of seriousness outside of the quartet. It does a good job of showing the downsides of juggling that many relationships too without in any way condemning the concept in general and i am still following the story closely.
actually, come to think of it, the first time i saw a relationship like that portrayed positively was the ending of Rick Riordian’s Kane Chronicles series. I didn’t realize it until later, it’s a strange magical example and I’m pretty sure that Rick didn’t mean for it to be taken that way, but it was still cool. Great series all around though
Let’s see…
Polygamy, Mormons
Polyamory, It’s Walky
Yeah, that’s about right.
I hope Willis feels honored by it.
Speaking of which, anybody know how he found out? And was his reaction as hilarious as Joyce’s?
The TvTropes article for Menage a Trois. And then a certain Elementary episode.
Is it sad that I immediately thought of this comic ;P
http://www.ma3comic.com/
I think I, like many others, initially learned about it from the Mormons/Salomon. But back then, it was a “thing that other people did that had to do with religion somehow”.
Pretty sure my first contact with a real polyamorous couple[1][2] was on the Questionable Content fora. Sadly, they are long gone from there. (PS and a12, if you happen to read this, hi!) It turned from a “thing weird people did” to a “thing that other people did and certainly not me, haha”.
Then eventually my ex-turned-fuckbuddy fell for a crush of mine…
[1] I am aware that the term “polyamorous couple” is somewhat of an oxymoron, but they were, at least in my memory, really the only two of their polycule who attended those fora.
[2] Polyamorous in the sense that they embrace a philosophy shaped by more recent poly theory, by things like “More Than Two” etc.
It’s amazing how close we can get to people who have a shared interest but not a shared zip code. I hope you buy into them somehow one day online. 🙂
Also, gotta love QC. It was amazing even back when the art was simple. Sometimes I wonder if he will ever introduce a character who was intersex at birth, but had their bits changed to resemble male or female before they could consent. It’s random to say, but that’s how I’ve thought of Penelope for a long time because of the religious parents and her feelings toward them.
I learned about it at a Human Awareness Institute workshop (one of many reasons HAI is pretty awesome). As I learned about it, it made a lot of sense, and I quickly realized that I was poly. I’ve been fortunate in not experiencing jealousy (yes, really, never) and in finding partners who weren’t jealous.
BTW, I was raised believing in Gays Go To Hell and No Sex Before Marriage. Learning that my best friend was gay evaporated the first belief. The second took a few more years – I had to actually become atheist first. By the time I encountered poly, my attitude was “If everyone’s enjoying it (and it’s basically healthy), go for it!” And I did.
I’d never heard of HAI. I’m glad they helped you. And I’m glad you got away from all that hateful thinking as well. I’m still scared of people finding out I’m an atheist in my town, while I tend not to hide being polysexual (not to be confused with polyamorus 😉 ) save filtering depending on the situation. How do you feel about it?
From Unitarian-Universalists.
Me: “So… that’s different from an open relationship?”
Them: “Yes.”
Lol! That should make cards to hand out with the definition and what it isn’t to save time 😉
either reading wikipedia or reading this web serial about a high fantasy world in a modern day setting featuring a repressed bisexual half-demon who ends up with multiple lovers in her first year at college.
I was like ten when I learned about it. very precocious.
That sounds like a kickass serial. And you sound like you were quite clever and curious at 10. Then again the Internet helped 😉
It’s hard to know when and how I first became acquainted with polyamory in concept. I was certainly aware of swinging and open relationships in concept before starting high school but multi-party mutual love based relationships (ie polyamory proper) wasn’t on my radar until some time later and I certainly couldn’t tell you now how I learned of any of those (we’re talking about a period over two decades ago). That said I can tell you about my first in situ experience with polyamory (vaguely, mind, due to not being comfortable sharing too much detail about my meatspace life online)….
So in ’99 I was a freshman in college about to be wrapping that year up (it was March or April) when I met a nice bi couple at a local BDSM event (I was rather new to BDSM at that point and still finding myself in most ways) who were looking for a Dom to fill out their poly family.
A was 25 or 26, had just started her professional career, and was a switch. Her girlfriend S was a 20 or 21 year old sub and effectively the homemaker in their relationship (she had no interest in further schooling nor a career). We dated for a while (around six months) and I was invited to join their household full time (I wasn’t in school anymore by that point) but I had other life issues that got in the way and had grown to realize that the poly dynamic didn’t work for me emotionally and we ended up parting on amiable terms. Last I heard they had found a guy (a freshly minted lawyer IIRC) who fit their relationship well and they were all planning their handfasting (that was around a decade ago).
Awww, that is such a sweet story! I’m glad that they found a good person that they wanted to spend their lives with. ^_^
Oh my god all these stories are amazing! I must go back to sleep so that I can find time to reply to them all later on today! ^_^
*wipes brow*
That was a lots of reply but a promise is a promise. I wonder if anyone will notice?
The long gap between my first few replies is because my dad’s dog had a seizure. Three in total back to back. The vet put him on meds but it will take time for them to get in his system. So Jake got to scare the hell out of us for over an hour, recover after another 30 minutes, and then bound off to drop a ball in my lap wanting to play fetch! Gotta love that kind of attitude. He only has 2 to 4 episodes a month, but clustered together like that they can be dangerous. Thus the med.
Happy to know everything is now fine !
I came back to see if you answered my commentary, and I’m now looking at all the other ones.
Human experiences are fun !
A woman friend of mine told me she was poly. I was surprised, and asked questions. That was the easy part.
I realized that I considered, soon after that poly-talk, “opening” my relationship with the man I was dating at the time, for we lived in two different cities and I feared our relationship wasn’t satisfying to him. (Yep, weirdly I was OK with the thought of him having “another girl” but didn’t consider the same for myself). Looks like I was right about the insatisfaction thing because he dumped me soon.
After that, I hooked again with a sexfriend I had some months before. Then, the polyamourous friend from the beginning told me my sexfriend and she were going back together, and that she was cool with me still having sex with him if I was cool with them being in a relationship.
A month after that, I got my girlfriend. I told my sexfriend that, being in a relationship, I wanted to “pause” again our activities.
Then I discovered that my girlfriend had some flavor of sex aversion whereas I have some flavor of sex appreciation, and I worried it would break the relationship. I asked my girlfriend for authorization to hook up with my sexfriend, she said yes. (I still wasn’t considering that arrangement polyamory, because one of the relationship wasn’t “amourous”).
Then my sexfriend realized that he felt dirty having two sex partners at the same time because he had learnt that only terrible men do that.
My girlfriend came over to cheer me up because my sexfriend had just dumped me. That was weird.
For some reason, a lot of the human beings I know are perfectly okay with casual touching. Loads of hugs, massages and all the like. A man friend, at the time, asked me to do these kinds of touching just as friends. (We were both in long-distance relationships at the time). I accepted and discovered that I have some flavor of casual-touching inability and that my mind and my body read everything he did as flirt. And I “flirted” back – cuddling with him, massaging him. I felt like I cheated on my girlfriend so I called her after he left and told her everything. She answered that it was casual touching and that it didn’t count, but she was happy to learn that all the casual touching we did together satisfied me sexually speaking because it was still a sore point in our relationship.
I felt like I owed the guy the truth about me liking what we did a bit too much, so I told him some months later that I took advantage of him, that I felt bad and that I wouldn’t do these casual touching with him anymore because I knew he wasn’t interested in being romantic or sexual with me.
He stopped me and said he had a huge crush on me since some weeks after that day we casually cuddled, and that he had asked my girlfriend the authorization to flirt with me sooner in that week. (She answered “uh, I’m not her owner, ask HER if she wants to date you, weirdo”. Because she was perfect like that.)
And that is how I ended up being in two relationships with two wonderful people, and also a terrible advocate against the part of biphobia that says that all bisexual people want a man and a woman at once.
(My girlfriend is now my ex-girlfriend, but I lived with my boyfriend.)
I love this so much. It shows so many different situations. And your ex girlfriend does sound pretty amazing. A lot of people I know of any gender are the jealous type (at least around here) as well as possessive.
I also loved how you mentioned biphobia and the stereotype we get assigned. I think that’s why a lot of bisexuals/polysexuals/pansexuals won’t even consider polyamory; people saying we are sluts, require both a male and a female partner, and/or only have threesomes tends to get old pretty fast. I wish everyone who caught that crap got to talk to you and see that being in a relationship with people of different genders isn’t a bad thing and doesn’t prove anyone right in their assumptions.
ex-Buzzfeed’s Gaby Dunn is polyamorous and she made a little video about it.
I loved her! She’s still making videos you know? I still miss her on Buzzfeed.
I think I just kind of intuited it as a concept as a result of ever mounting bafflement and disgust with fictional love polygons and my overly empathetic brain’s efforts to resolve them without someone having their heart broken. Like the hard limitation of a relationship to two people just never really made sense to me as far back as I can remember.
That’s so sweet. You know I have never heard of someone reading about a love [shape] and think they should all just get together? Heck, this is the first time I thought of it! It would also make some of the more crazy relationships make more sense than what the author ended up doing.
Biased sample, of course, but also webcomics. Blue Crash Kit, as I recall, which is no longer even hosted online, nor has been for some years. Ah, nostalgia. I was almost certainly “too young” to be reading it at the time, but I think it has probably had a positive impact on my outlook on life.
I’m now saddened that a comic that had a positive impact is no longer hosted online. Perhaps one day they will again. Random question, but did it have an ending or just stop in an odd place?
For me it was in watching Avenida Brasil, a very successful soap opera here in Brazil, had the formation of 2 poly relationships along it’s course, in the end it had one of a man and 3 women (but the women were only in relationships with the man and only friends with each other) and one with a woman and two men (these ones are all in a relationship with each other). The quad had grown up kids already and by the last episode the woman in the triad was shown to be pregnant.
It was a very famous soap opera só it was on the brazilian mainstream media a lot.
That’s one hell of a soap opera! I can only imagine the reaction to it here. It’s pretty cool yall had it available 🙂
PS: I’m sorry Lochte
I don’t remember ever finding out about it, rather than simply figuring it as ‘something that would happen in the rather huge world of relationships’.
As to being…I had a girlfriend who wanted it. I didn’t, so that didn’t work out so well – not so much the ‘she has other partners’ thing, as the ‘she was pushing me to’ part.
I’ve never understood that. If a partner has something that they are or that they love, they shouldn’t try to force you to be the same! You should be cool with it and if they want to tell you about it or offer it to you once, that’s fine, but don’t try to force somebody you are supposed to be a partner with. I don’t care if it’s religion or sports or favorite hobby, it can ruin a relationship.
My best friend is a wiccan and her husband is agnostic. They are happy, he supports her, and he went with her one year to Samhain with her coven, but he’s still agnostic. They’ve never tried to change each other’s minds and are respectful which is how it should be.
We were young…her more so than I… Young people make silly decisions.
I attended Oberlin College. I was terrified of sex and not ready for it, but/so I read literally all of Dan Savage’s columns, and listened to his podcasts, probably during freshman and sophomore year.
From there I heard mention of ‘The Ethical Slut’ (which is a foundational book on the matter) and read it, too. Hooray for book learning.
By senior year I’d managed to open my primary relationship, which was neato because I got to kiss and snuggle ladies.
By the time my older brother and his wife came out about their open marriage, I was able to run interference for the rest of my family, hah. My parents still wish they didn’t know.
So, yeah, Oberlin.
Yea books! Also yea awesome sis!
All I remember is learning about it in the Bible, and realizing that, if David could be after the Lord’s own heart and have multiple wives, then it clearly was not forbidden.
That may have been my awakening to the fact that people interpreted the Bible, seeing as their ideas were clearly different from that of others. David sure didn’t think that Genesis forbade him to have multiple wives.
Anyways, from there I assumed that there must be a woman with multiple husbands, and then from there any combination. I don’t know when I learned it was something practiced today, through. I’m sure I saw it in porn, but I didn’t know if that was real. (I do know I thought the trans women in the magazine were fake. I didn’t even connect them with the “transsexuals” I’d heard about.)
Yeah. The Bible is a trip especially when compared to what it says to how it’s interpreted.
Knowing that there were kids in my school with three parents who lived together: around 9ish.
Knowing that there was a name for it: 15ish. Had two poly teachers (including the woman leading the sex-ed class)
You just blew my mind. Finding someone out of the closet in my town is rare because of how it is here. To think of a place where people could be that open… that sounds as good as hot coco in the winter.
Huh. It’s hard to remember bc it seems so natural to me now? I think… hm. There was this book with a bisexual guy who claimed he was not cheating on anyone bc he only had one girlfriend at a time. “What, are you broken up with Rael already?” “Does Rael look like a girl to you?”
Either that, or that book where the protag was so fucking done with being in a love triangle with two guys and all DRAMA between them about who she’d stay with (while otherwise they got along and had their own thing going on) and just put her foot down and said “I am fucking keeping you both” and they were like “…ok, that works”
Whichever was first.
Or maybe even before that, the concept of free love and ppl just not giving a fuck about who sleeps with whom we’re all friends anyway.
Or the idea of having multiple wives who are happy with each other.
Huh. It feels like it was never something that felt wrong to me, even if at some point I didn’t know the word for it? I can’t remember learning the word at all, it just wasn’t an emotional moment. Probably on TVTropes as 90% of my non-basic English vocabulary comes from there?
…do you know what the title of that second book was? Asking for a friend.
Well if you know Russian… it was called… uh okay let me google bc i dont actually remember the name. It kind of changed multiple times?
aha there it is
“Ар-Нейт”, the first book is called “Белая тетрадь”, the author is Софья Ролдугина
I’m sorry to everyone who doesn’t know Russian )= you are missing out on a lot of our glorious quality fantasy
(warning: this is not Pure. this is very Problematic. like abusive shit? its in there? its still great but its the trashy kind of great)
I love the sound of that second book! Prefect end to a love triangle XD
… now that I think about it, I wonder if that’s how the comic Girl Genius will wind up?
That’s my prediction!
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned “Triad”, the song by Crosby Stills and Nash.
“Why don’t we go on as three?”
I’ve never heard it personally. My tastes are eclectic (just about everything but classic country), so I’ll try and listen to it sometime.
I was on an academic-ish listserv where one of the subscribers was Janet Hardy, who would later go on to literally co-write the book on polyamory, “The Ethical Slut.”
(Someone asked her about the Unethical Virgin; her response was, “Somebody already wrote that book, and it’s called ‘The Rules.'”)
She sounds awesome!
I don’t remember the exact origin of when I found out about the existence of poly, but I’m 99% sure it was through the AVEN forums with other asexuals saying it was a structure that worked well for them and sharing their experiences. Though I might have seen it (badly) covered in Dan Savage’s column before that. But the AVEN one is what stuck.
As for as figuring out I was poly. That was about 6 months into my relationship with my ex which was my first relationship ever. We were still trying to figure out mono frame and asexuality and I was moving really slowly on sex stuff because the internal pressure whenever we tried something felt brutal and distracting (she was great about this, it was mostly my own brain freaking out before trying every new thing that it wouldn’t work or it wouldn’t be the same as with a sexual partner or that I’d be shit at it and then she’d never experience that again as long as she was with me).
So, during that time, she also had a very… close friendship with another girl that was clearly developing into a relationship and she was freaking out about that and the mutual attractions and loyalty and all that stuff while not being able to deny the attraction. And I found them really cute together and at the time I thought I was a guy, so I thought that I was “cutting her off” from experience with women (which was biphobic of me, I know).
So we ended up making a decision to go on break while she pursued that relationship, but the girl went screaming back into the closet after my ex asked her out and so that was a whole mess and she came back to me and we just sort of picked up where we left off.
And I remember feeling that was dumb and that I knew about this poly thing from AVEN and so said, “hey why don’t we do this thing” so that you don’t have to stress if this sort of thing pops up again. And that was sort of that. I really liked helping her get ready for dates and decompressing after them and feeling all the compersion and the lack of stress made performing sexual stuff a lot less scary and a lot more enjoyable from an intellectual and emotional stand point (like yeah, I made someone feel that good, that’s so awesome, bodies are fascinating) and that reduced a lot of stress on that angle.
And so I’ve never looked back since.
That’s such a sweet story hun. And I can see how being poly would feel so natural for so many asexuals seeing how it took the stress and pressure off you.
Also, it’s so weird hearing you talk about when you were a guy! Sometimes I forget all the years you lived as male. Is it ever strange to think back to before you figured it out?
Dated a girl in highschool who, nine years later, is still one of my best friends. We only see each other every couple of years, around Christmas. One of these times, she told me about the time she’d tried a polyamorous relationship, but it wasn’t her thing. It wasn’t necessarily a negative experience, but it just didn’t work for her. (Incidentally, it’s her birthday today.)
The first unambiguously positive example I heard about was in these comment threads, shipping Ethan/Danny/Amber. And I still ship this, they just need to work on some issues.
I love that yall are still friends even with the distance. And I love that the comments here gave you a positive example.
Also, how did I miss that example!?! I guess I was coming off a binge read of DoA after reading Shortpacked! when I commented the first time, so I had no idea that how Amber was acting was DID or that openly hoping she got with Mike again like in the other comic would get so much… negative feedback, so odds are I missed more (before catching up I only actively searched for any comment by Willis).
Polyamourous lesbian makeouts and hilarious Joyce-freakout faces.
All this is missing is Mary being punched again and it’d be the PERFECT DOA strip.
No, the perfect DoA strip is the one where Mike and Robin get their comeuppances simultaneously due to Carla’s latest scheme, which somehow involves Sayid and Alex the Teacher, and also Marcie and Malaya finally hooking up for real. And also Jocelyne comes out to an accepting Joyce in the same strip, and Ruth is genuinely happy, and Amber sees a therapist, who is actually Sal wearing the gag glasses from Persona 4.
Look, it’s kind of a cluttered strip, okay?
Well, if it’s cluttered, it isn’t perfect, is it? 😛
Also Danny, Ethan, and Amber work something out between the three of them.
aren’t those gag glasses the one your avatar is wearing?
Yep.
Holy crap I just realized your gravatar is Kanji from Persona 4! He was my favorite character from that game!
You forgot the part where Carla casts Mary into the cragged shame pit of the lust-wolves.
polyanarchy
ANARCHY IN THE UK
Baby steps, Grace, baby steps.
I think a little floating green alien that only Joyce can sre should teach her about the fine and noble history of anarchosyndicalism
A little alien in a gnome cap.
STRAIGHT PEOPLE ARE A MYTH!
You know, I’ve always felt bad about shipping because I feel like I’m disregarding the characters in doing so, but does anyone else now kinda ship Joyce, Carla, and Sal in a polyamorous relationship? I mean, both Joyce and Carla seem to have (in Carla’s case purely romantic) a small crush on Sal and Joyce and Carla’s interactions so far, few though they have been, really have a sort of Tsundere feel to them on Carla’s part. But then I get to thinking “But Sal has so far identified pretty clearly as straight” and “Oh, would that negatively affect Becky and by extension her relationship with Dina? Because they’re so sweet…” and the next thing I know I’m knocking my head softly against a wall in indecision before eventually stress eating a pizza.
It would strain Becky and Dina’s relationship because it might put Becky in the hospital from shock and awe.
It’s not wrong for you to ship it, though I personally can’t see Joyce/Sal in any form ending well. She and Jason are the only two people I can’t really get behind shipping with Sal (outside mega asshole villain folks obviously and, because this is the internet and I feel I must specify, her family, who I also automatically consider a no-no).
I can get behind Sal/Carla though.
…I think I like anarchy.
I think I like Sierra.
Why not both?
Sierranarchy
NEW SHIP: SIERRA X THE POLITICAL IDEOLOGY OF ANARCHY
I find the growing details of the lives of these side characters more compellingly interesting than perhaps half the primary cast at this point.
Also maybe Joyce does have a point. Grace and Mandy’s polyamory with Sierra may not be inherently scandalous by their account, but I mean they’re still making out in the hallway in their underwear in broad…is this at night? During lights on hours at the very least, which would probably be at least frowned upon if an RA were there.
This is a fine example of what would be both Joyce’s best and worst traits as an RA.
She is caring, understanding, emphatic and wishes everyone the best.
She is also a nosy, moralizing busybody!
I love how neither Grace or Sierra are the least offended. They just pat the little scandalized clueless busybody on her and give her the latest update.
They’ve probably all gotten used to Joyce at this point. Especially Sierra, who I assume has been still been walking to church with Joyce for the past couple months.
Also, I’m fairly certain Sierra added that last bit specifically to get a reaction out of Joyce, and I am in no way judging her for it.
I am judging her for it.
I am ruling her awesome.
After further review, the ruling on the field is confirmed: Sierra is awesome.
I think Sierra’s parting comment may have been explicitly motivated by her finding Joyce’s reactions adorable.
*Becky perks up*
Dina: What is it?
Becky: I don’t know. I just feel as if someone is carrying on my legacy.
Dina: What does that mean?
Becky: Joyce’s making one of her faces again.
Dina: Ah, yes. I am quite familiar with that face. I believe I have induced it on occasion, such as the time I explained to her that her annual vaccinations were only necessary because of evolution.
Becky: You did the Lord’s work.
Dina: That is ironic, if true.
Joyce, barging in: “Here, Dina, take a look at this picture of Jesus cuddling a baby raptor with no feathers!”
Dina: *brainmelts into stammering*
Joyce: YES! REVENGE!
I think we’d get a repeat of the face Dina made when Joyce told her that “we can’t really know what dinosaurs looked like”, only ANGRIER.
Is there some context to this?
Like, my impression was that there’s a lot of speculation and not a lot of hard evidence on things like soft tissue structure, what color their feathers were, etc. There’s only so much you can get from fossils.
Basic attack on biology and evolution.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/feathers/
And we do have at least some hard evidence for feather color – pigments found in fossilized feathers.
I don’t know what’s considered “settled” and what’s still in question, but there have been a lot of new finds and new analyses in the last few years. I’m pretty sure we have hard evidence for feather colors in at least one species.
We have them for a few, actually. Sinosauropteryx, for example, was orange with white bands on its tail.
Didn’t they also find a freaking feathered dinosaur tail preserved in amber a few months back? That’s pretty conclusive evidence as well.
Oh heck!!! Are they trying to get a genetic sequence???
We actually have fairly good soft tissue impressions for a number of species, enough that we can usually use a close relative of a given species to fill in the gaps. And their modern relatives work pretty well as an indicator the rest of the time. And that’s not even getting into the fact that musculature and fat distribution leaves indications on bones, even if the actual soft tissue isn’t fossilized.
I GOOGLED THAT
WHY DID I GOOGLE THAT????
Because it sounds like something funny to see.
….. wait, so if I say random and innocuous things in the comment section Bagge will google them?
……
… this is power I should not have.
…this is going to end up with a sparkly man-dangle on a belt in my search history, isn’t it?
There isn’t one already?
Actually, google’s blocked that specific phrase. You can’t search for it.
What are you talking about? It works perfectly fi… DANG IT!!!!
OK. Now that was brilliant trolling.
*bows*
Thank you, thank you. I’ll be here all week.
I am extremely pleased with all of the directions this sub-thread has gone.
All of you dorks are awesome
Get it, Sierra!
No, it’s “Polyamory”, not “Anarchy”.
“You got polyamory in my anarchy!”
“You got anarchy in my polyamory!”
Two great tastes that go great together!
And that my friends is the origin of “relationship anarchy”.
Wait…. that means we have to find a way for the lines in this comic’s relationship-pentagram to have more than two points on them.
…..
*brushes off his old textbooks on non-Euclidean geometry*
Polyamarchy. Clearly.
Where was all this happening when I was in college???
Oh, right. I’m a guy. And I was studying.
sigh…
Maybe someone should remind Joyce that the tea party movement is an anarchist movement, I mean, they chant “Death to America, Tea Party Victory” at their rallies.
and christian conservatives are cool with that.
The Tea Party movement is most definitely NOT an anarchist movement; they don’t want no government, they want to BE the government.
Not being an anarchist movement is quite possibly the only good thing you can say about them.
I know anarchists, and I don’t necessarily like them all that much. I will not, however, stand for them being insulted with that comparison.
Though there do exist “ancaps” (anarchist capitalists), who basically favor a completely unregulated form of capitalism where businesses define the overall structure and government doesn’t exist so the free market can work its voodoo magic. (I don’t particularly have much respect for this ideology).
And I know of at least one ancap person who has also been heavily involved in Tea Party stuff, though I would be hesitant to say that is the majority or even a major plurality of the group.
Ancaps ain’t anarchists by any meaningful use of the word.
Doesn’t sound like they’ve thought it through to the point of “how do you have a market when me and my mates can just beat you up and take your stuff”.
Typical.
Or they have and just assume they’ll be the “me and my mates”.
The various leftist variations on anarchism or libertarianism have always at least seemed to have more coherent ideas about how their societies would actually work.
As I understand it there would be free-market cops you could hire to prevent people from beating you up and taking your stuff. What would keep the free-market cops from taking your stuff wasn’t clear.
We normally call those private security forces. Which, in the absence of any actual government control, devolves in about 15 minutes into gangs and in a generation or two into feudalism.
I particularly like the free market judges. 🙂
Linkage?
Say whatever you will about the Tea Baggers (I kid you not, that’s what they originally called themselves)… but “Death to America” sounds so antithetical to the ideology of the movement that it strikes me as something that would have come from the leftist equivalent of Breitbart or Infowars.
It’s straight out of ISIS propaganda. But that one little phrase is basically the only difference between ISIS’ platform and the Republican establishment’s; for one, both of them focus on a fictitious war between “Islam” and “the West”.
That really has nothing to do with the question, or the topic.
I was countering your hypothetical comparison to the left by making an actual comparison to the right.
Which still doesn’t have anything to do with “Death to America” being chanted at a Tea Party Rally sounding like something entirely made-up by the sorts of “sources” that wouldn’t know a fact if it bit them on the ass.
Or provide any sort of outside verifiable source for the claim.
Girls kissing girls.
not kissing…the first girls they were kissing!
Don’t die on me, Yotomoe! Breathe!
Eeeeeeeh! Polyamory! *screeches in adoration*
Hey DOA fam, what are some of your coping strategies? I just found out that a wonderful, kind friend of mine is dying from inoperable cancer. I last saw her a week ago and now she’s already back in her home country which is very far away from mine. Crying my eyes out in my room isn’t helping; even this comic, which would have normally elicited a chuckle, didn’t do a thing.
My condolences and strength to you 🙁
First of all: Fuck cancer!
As for coping mechanisms… I often do anger, spite, and writing a lot of words. But that’s just me. Not sure it’ll work for you.
And no matter what sort of coping you do, I really hope that you can share the grief with someone close to you that you trust. It’s when the chips are down that we really need help from one another. And yes, surely you’ll also have times where you need to be alone… But just being able to tell someone that you need to be alone, and having them immediately understand why… It’s one of those things that seems insignificantly small until it suddenly isn’t.
I’m so sorry, honey. I hope she has as good a time as she can for however long she has, and that she and her loved ones, including you, cope well.
Do you have someone you can talk to?
I try to sleep a lot. Of course I have a chronic disease that makes me tired all the time, so that’s easier for me than for some. But just about everything seems more bearable if you have a good sleep, it creates some distance between you and the initial hit.
Also I use a sort of mental white-noise distraction technique to just plain stop thinking about it for a while.
And doing work is good, grinding work that helps distract or something that seems helpful – when my sister had a heart attack and was on the brink of death I grabbed my felting needles and made her a felted heart to have in hospital – stabbing things lots of times was therapeutic.
And if you have to cry, well, remind yourself it’s an important task. I had to put my cat to sleep today. I’m going to be crying a lot for a while, and that’s part of the grieving and it needs to get done.
And I’m really sorry about your friend.
I also use
*internet hugs*
*hugs*
My preferred anger/frustration outlet tends to be firing up an ARPG on the laptop (currently, Grim Dawn) and going to town on everything that moves and/or is breakable.
I draw a lot. It helps me make colorful metaphors that no one but me will understand.
I’m sorry to hear that. My two cents: distractions (art, exercise, movies, something you usually enjoy, therapy (short-term therapy exists for situations like this), and Skype/text/calling your friend when she has the energy to do so. Do your best to not let your melancholy show when interacting with her; she should not be put in a position where she might feel like she should be comforting you
*enjoy)
Oh no, I’m sorry to hear that! *giant hugs if wanted*
Well, in general, I think one of the important things is to forgive yourself and give yourself the right to feel awful for a bit. Sometimes emotions are really strong and letting yourself feel really sad or angry for a little bit can help it seem less intense and allow you more space to return to emotions like happiness.
Therapy can also be a useful thing and there are therapists who do work specifically for a short number of weeks to work on a specific thing (like coping with a friend’s cancer diagnosis) and that can help it feel less overwhelming. Long-distance communication with the friend as Antigone notes is also good.
Distractions can also help. I’ll often do like three things at once when I’m in a terrible head space so that my mind can sort of melt away into that and not get stuck on a particular topic that is upsetting me.
I’m so sorry to hear that. It really sucks.
This isn’t so much a coping mechanism as general advice, but I think it’s important that you allow yourself to take breaks from your grief. It’s likely to be a long process before you reach a new normal.
That doesn’t mean you can’t have moments or even lengthy periods where you aren’t miserable or are even happy. Resist the urge to feel guilty about smiling or having fun. It’s okay. You NEED those moments of respite. It isn’t a betrayal (though it IS normal if you feel like it is), it’s only a break.
Taking breaks grief is probably as important as allowing yourself to feel it. Don’t bottle your grief for the sake of putting on a brave face, but distract yourself from it as needed.
I find exercise is a good activity to help turn your thoughts off for a while, particularly if you listen to music. It has the added benefit of helping you fall asleep faster, so you spend less time lying awake in bed.
Petition to change the comic’s name to ‘Joyce Can’t Catch a Fucking Break’ (JCCFB) XD
I also want to make out with Mandy at times.
This is basically the floor I was an RA on.
Sounds like a not-boring job!
Joyce, first panel: “I mean, it’s not as if I’ve recently realized that a lot of the love my church has practiced for years is actually hate in disguise, and I certainly never had any kind of existential crisis over that or anything. Baka.”
Anarchy?
But seriously, it means anchor, I guess it because it anchors its buddy to the text.
Anchor? What?
(Not to be confused with Angkor Wat.)
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=anarchy
SDKATT
Maybe something’s broken, but neither the post I was replying to or the post it was replying to had any title text of the sort you just demonstrated.
Not of that type, but if you hover over my link I ask about the <a&rt; tag in HTML that’s used to create hyperlinks.
*looks at resulting comment* Eh, 50% is basically a C-, right?
Thanks. Also, I love how that reply seems to come out of nowhere to someone who didn’t see the title text for the link I piped into the middle of a paragraph of text.
Ah jeez, I didn’t even consider that!
Oh, well…
Anarchy in the U.K.!!!!!
Alt-text.
Oh dear god that is just so adorable!!!!
This is the google image search that I browsed through to find one that looked even remotely like polyamory.
….. though now that I think about it, those kittens look disturbingly underage.
Oh my god there’s a puppy and a tiger cub touching noses!!! Squeeee!!!
Those eyes will haunt me in my sleep tonight.
Quick! Joyce Make out with Carla! It’s your only hope!
Carla: “Ew! Get your filthy human mouth away from me!”
Joyce: “Aren’t you human?”
Carla: “I find keeping a healthy mental distance from my own species helps prevent murderous rampages.”
You have got to be fucking kidding me.
OK, OK, focusing only on the first panels a little while I love Joyce’s sentiment here. The RA is gone, anarchy threatens but we keep it at bay, one nice act of reaching out to thy neighbor at the time.
And I totally see Carla’s point as well. “Yeah, NOW when we don’t have an RA everything unravels. Who knows, I might even be harassed or discriminated against or something like that. Geeeeez, that’s totally new.”
I couldn’t have that sort of relationship…… of course I can’t seem to have any romantic one right now so yeah….
JoyceOS has encountered a critical system error and has been restarted to prevent data loss. Underlying assumption about human relationships violated.
Cranial BSOD 0x00000WTF in howubang.sys
This should be addressed by the next hotfix.
Honestly, I’m kind of wondering how Becky will react to this, if/when she finds out about it. After all, we know she responded to Billie’s bisexuality about as well as Danny responded to, well, Danny’s bisexuality.
Now that she, like Danny, is aware of the concept, I think she’d handle it fine. Or at least no worse than Joyce. 🙂
“You can do that?”
“Well, okay then. Cool.”
Speaking seriously, I’m kind of nervous for when Joyce starts to figure out trans people. Not because I don’t trust Willis to handle it–I think he’s earned some trust, however often we get burned–but walking Joyce stumble through figuring all of that in her good-natured but unknowingly hurtful way may be a little painful.
It might make it easier, though, considering Joyce has Jocelyn to help her understand all of that.
It took me a little while for me to realize why this scene made me happier, not just because of ‘Joyce funny face’ but because of its general content. Because, the heart of it is, Joyce sees a poly couple and she freaks out in a loud and dramatic way, and that’s, like. Well that’s bad, ye?
But, Sierra and Grace are just, so chill with it. And when Joyce sees them, they’re incredibly relaxed about it. Their posture remains relaxed and affectionate, they’re TOTALLY unguarded. And in the last panel they casually tell Joyce that Mandy is also part of the triad(?) too.
And part of it is, Joyce sees same-sex couple kissing and that doesn’t even phase her. We already knew that her idea of what good romantic couples could be expanded to include gals and gals, but its heartening to see that presented again in this context.
And there’s also how comfortable Grace and Sierra are with being seen? Grace has that little grin in the last panel showing how she’s enjoying Joyce’s freakout, and Sierra’s expression is constantly cheerful. Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but the impression I’m getting is that they feel comfortable around Joyce, even as they delve into typically marginalized relationships. And I think that says a lot about how the queer girls on the floor have come to trust Joyce after what happened with Becky.
I agree with all of this. Joyce has grown a lot now that she sees same-gender smooching and is going “wait, but fidelity” rather than “wait, but you’re both girls” and yeah Grace and Sierra’s casualness and trust of Joyce are well seen. They know that Joyce will freak out for a bit, but they know that she’s not going to go all holy roller and try and hurt them with this knowledge in the way a Mary would.
And it’s great to see Joyce developing that relationship among folks as someone who will ultimately end up on the right side even if there will be freakouts along the way.
All of what you just said.
Yay, polyamory! Glad to see it represented by Willis.
I know! And not in the weird creepy way it was during It’s Walky and Joe’s squad where it was more about fulfilling harem tropes than depicting polyamorous relationships. I’m really happy about this.
That said, I feel like we all should have seen this coming given the fact that half the floor started as Squad 48. Obviously healthier in this universe, but same idea.
Well that kinda came out of nowhere.
Vaguely, but I think it serves a coherent narrative purpose? This strip starts with Carla calling Joyce ‘one of those God girls’ and of course she’s thinking of Mary, when she says it. It seems that Carla still doesn’t QUITE trust Joyce, because of that association, I think. Which is fair enough.
Of course, Joyce doesn’t understand why Carla would be suspicious of her motives, so she can’t answer them, and even if she attempted to defend herself it would ring hollow. Instead, it immediately pans to her seeing Grace and Sierra kissing and they have their little back-and-forth.
Which I think serves two purposes. Firstly, it highlights how far she’s come, in that she sees two girls kissing and is immediately scandalized not by the fact that it’s two girls, but that she thinks she’s seeing someone cheating. This establishes her as someone who might be worthy of trust in this.
Secondly, we see her reaction to a happy poly couple, and even though it’s played off as a joke the fact that she’s freaking out illustrates that, while she’s come a long way, she still has some harmful hangups to get over. This both separates Joyce from Mary, but also establishes that even if her heart is in the right place, she isn’t quite ‘safe’ in the way that an informed ally would be. . . Yet.
As for Grace, Mandy and Sierra, I kinda like how abrupt the reveal of their poly-relationship is. Just click their tags. All three of them obviously have all sort of cool things going on that we don’t really know about because our focus is elsewhere. But it’s not like the main cast have any monopoly of college drama around here.
The exception is of course Agatha who live a normal, slightly boring life and never have any drama going on. That’s my headcanon and I’m sticking to it for the sake of a lame joke despite all obvious signs of the contrary.
Honestly, I didn’t even consider that weird? Because like, they’re great, but they’re minor characters. We aren’t going to get a dramatic poly reveal for these guys.
you’re right…. but a slipshine would be nice.
Didn’t we already have a Grace/Mandy one? I don’t get the slipshines, so I’m not sure.
Ýes, but now when we have updated the list of available variables we want more!!!
Well, Agatha does have a terrible roommate we have yet to see…
It’s Guns, isn’t it?
That’s the suspicion, yeah.
Or Meredith!
I will die on this hill.
It would be interesting to have a weekly side-strip about something going on with the “secondary” cast.
And here Joyce thought she was prepared for anything the world can throw at her…
Anarchy in the hallway!
Yeah, Joyce, stop running!
I really have a difficult time wrapping my head around polyamory. But then again, I’ve never been in a relationship and am plenty insecure to boot.
There is basically only two things everyone needs to know about polyamory
– Some people make it work
– Society is structured in a way that often discriminates it, so we have to update society to avoid pointless tragedy (compare and contrast same gender marriage).
If one is involved or want to be involved in a polyamorous relationship there are a few more things to learn, of course, the first of which is:
– COMMUNICATION IS VERY IMPORTANT.
(a few bullet points down comes: Good scheduling can help a lot.)
(As said by someone who is actually not in a polyamorous relationship. There are plenty of people with first-hand knowledge who might want to change that list)
As a very poly person, I’d say it’s not for everyone! I personally enjoy it because it involves a huge amount of open communication and honesty, which I really need in any type of relationship. It’s not as if someone starts trying it and then loses all ability for jealousy, it’s more that you talk those feelings out right when they come up and deal with them. (For me, it also helps when I become close with my partner’s other partners. It’s not about the one person not being “enough” for you, or anything like that; it’s about acknowledging that you can love people the same amount but for different reasons and in different ways, and that sometimes you can get different things from different people and it all adds up into getting everything you need. Consent, communication, and extreme honesty are the most important factors.
I don’t think it’s just society, any more than it’s only society that keeps people straight. Polyamory is just not something everyone wants or can actually handle. The default state for humanity seems to be serial monogamy, devoting all your love primarily to a single person at a time.
I find it unlikely that the jealousy issue is just societal. It seems inherent in us. Our morality values fairness, while our instincts want to focus on one romantic partner at a time.
Hence why it’s something you work on, and not something you override. It’s why poly relationships are so hard. I know so few people who have maintained them throughout their lives.
Polygamy only seems to work because it has a single head who authoritatively shuts down any complaints, and forbids divorce.
I don’t have any basic problem with polyamory and am probably mildly inclined that way.
OTOH, single relationships are hard enough to manage. Poly ones add a whole nother level.
. . . It may be hard, dude, but let’s avoid calling the social default in many cultures (not all, just many) ‘the normal way we were programmed to operate.’ It may seem normal to you, but my partner cannot function that way. When you say its natural for someone to want to devote all their love to one person, what you’re saying–and I understand you mean no harm, but it doesn’t change what you’re saying–that she feels is unnatural and that’s not a good message to send.
Nah, that’s a pretty decent list. 🙂
But, yeah, going into more depth, it definitely is a relationship structure that doesn’t work for everyone in the same way that a monogamous relationship structure doesn’t work for everyone. And it requires, much like monogamous relationships good consistent communication to succeed, because all relationships need that to work and when you multiply the relationships, that just multiplies in importance.
The basic structure is in the name, many loves, with the idea of there being multiple romantic relationships going on at the same time and with each party having the freedom to find the number of partners that works for them personally. It’s not to be confused with polygamy which is a sexist and often abusive religious system based on multiple women being subservient to a man and not allowed to date multiple people themselves.
And that can take multiple forms. One is “primary/secondary”, where you have one relationship that is more interconnected (with cohabitation or marriage or raising kids together) and then side relationships that more closely resemble casual dating. One is a couple dating a third as a couple (though this can run into the problem of unicorn hunting, which is when a man-woman pair seek out a bisexual woman to basically serve as an ancillary toy for the relationship which is usually cruel to the bisexual woman).
One is “relationship anarchy” where there are no set rules and you just let love and people’s preferred relationship structures dictate where each relationship is at (I’m a big fan of this one, but it requires a lot of communication
(even above normal polyamory) to make sure someone isn’t being left in the cold or that they actually want the relationship structure they are settling in.
And then there’s “triads”, which is what Grace/Mandy/Sierra look to be in. Where each of the three (and there are quads for four, pentads for five and so on…) are dating each other and trying to make a relationship structure work between them and none are really as seen as “more of a partner” than the others. There are also Vs where two people are dating one person, though that’s usually a single point on a massive web, because again, multiple people dating multiple people is the norm in this structure.
With regards to social discrimination. Yeah… there is. A lot. Honestly, I’d say it’s in a similar place as asexuality, where it’s flitting on people’s radars it’s a thing, but the bigots haven’t been actively organized around trying to destroy it yet. Which isn’t to say that bad things can’t happen. People can be thrown out of their homes for having a triad structure and people can be legally fired from a job if an employer finds out they’re poly.
And it’s very hard to find legal structures (especially for older poly folks) that protect multiple partners with regards to things like marriage benefits, after-death inheritance, being able to be present in a hospital during medical crisis (only one partner counts as legal “family” after all), and so on.
As for jealousy. Yeah, it’s a thing for people. Many poly people get jealous at times and things need to be talked out and possibly adjusted based on the responses. Metamours (the term for two people’s relationship to each other if they are both dating the same person) also need to have some working dynamic in some ways as issues can arise along that axis and it’s usually a lot better for jealousy if you know and like the partner your partner is with.
There is also “compersion”, which is a happy feeling resulting from a partner being happy from another relationship, which is super nice. Because it feels all warm to know your partner is happy and had fun even if you weren’t the source of that fun (and that can exist in mono relationships as well. Like for those in mono relationships, think of times you were happy because your partner went on a great outing with their friends and had tons of fun, that’s still compersion).
And people have different reasons for why poly works for them. For me, I don’t get jealous and I like love having the freedom to find it’s own space (which is very much me being a weirdo thing as most people experience jealousy) and I get really scared and anxious in monogamous relationships, because I feel like my asexuality is under a lot of pressure to perform lest I feel like I’m “robbing” someone of something (which isn’t true, but brains, yanno?). As such poly reduces a ton of the pressure to perform and so I feel more comfortable having sex when I do, because I know when something isn’t clicking or I’m not feeling up to giving that, they can go off and get those needs met somewhere else.
For my girlfriend, it’s being uncomfortable being someone’s “one and only” and liking instead to be a casual secondary on a more stable relationship where she’s friends with her metamour. For my fiancee and ex, it’s that they tend to fall in love with multiple people at the same time, and poly gives them the freedom to explore that.
But yeah, I believe that covers most of the things.
I actually get the impression from the wording in this strip that it’s more that Grace and Mandy have a secondary relationship with Sierra than that she’s part of a triad with them, but it’s totally open to interpretation. 🙂
@Cerberus
Thank you so much for your explanation of polyamory! It really validated my feelings and experiences; not experiencing jealousy, compersion, and feeling pressured as an ace person. It’s so wonderful to know that I’m not alone.
You’re very welcome. 🙂 And yeah, it’s why I really wouldn’t ever be able to go back to being mono (not that I was mono for very long).
And the pressure is insidious, because even if your partner is being totally awesome and non-pressuring, the structure of the relationship, at least for me, made me feel pressured in that I wanted to be a good girlfriend and that was a “crucial part of being a good girlfriend”, which was a lie I internalized thanks to assholes like Dan Savage.
The poly structure really removed the pressure and gave me more freedom to try things knowing that if it didn’t work out that was okay and I wasn’t barring something off forever in a partner’s experiences.
Once again, thank you for the very detailed and informative post. “Compersion”, I’ll have to remember that word.
Thanks a lot for this detailed and complex (and very well explained) information about polyamory (and also for a lot of other comments, btw) – I’m learning a lot about life from reading the comments section for a long time now!
If you want an easy approach, poly relationships (actually, relationships in general) are a recurring theme in another webcomic I can recommend. http://gogetaroomie.com/
Huh, a link? I suppose I better click it.
Decent drawings even in the first strip… heh, that’s funny…. A0www, that’s cute… Ooooh, I’m getting some girls with slingshots vibes from this. Best I bookmark it so I don’t…
…I have picked up yet another webcomic, haven’t I?
THANKS, Sunny.
Joyce, here’s a bit of advice: Something about Sierra tells me that she and ‘serious’ don’t normally fit together. My advice is for you not to try to do so. The three of them are doing what they do and, if it breaks your brain, don’t think about it.
Carla for R.A.!
“Carla noped to her room and she noped on her skates;
She noped down the stairs, all the way through the gates”
“Will you be our RA if you get to wear a crown?
Will you be it if we sing you praises,
If we spend time telling you how great you are,
If you get to wear a crown?
No, I’ll not be your RA, Joyce Brown,
Because you’re all a bunch of crazies,
Go away with that idea, go away far,
I’ll not be RA, Joyce Brown.”
*Applauds*
*throws confetti*
That last face is the stuff of creepypastas, I swear…
Yay, polyamory!
MASS POLYAMORY. ETHICAL, CONSENSUAL POLYAMORY SPREADING THROUGHOUT THE HALL! I am so glad.
Yesssss, poly representation!
If that’s what anarchy looked like, I’d have to rethink my position on the whole concept. Fortunately it isn’t, so I won’t.
Fuck anarchy.
“I was a teenage anarchist, but then the scene got to rigid. It was a mob mentality, they set their rifle sights on me…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7RUeMCZL3Q
Yessssssssssssssss
I’m pretty sure that Grace and Sierra are thinking: “How sweet that Joyce is looking out for Mandy like that!”
I must say I didn’t expect Sierra and Grace to be kissing…or the fact that Sierra and Mandy do as well. But that’s cool. Even cooler that Joyce is more worried about the perceived cheating than the fact that two girls are kissing.
Who else wants to be in the middle of a Grace & Sierra sandwich?
Could we not descend into the maddening depths of cannibalism? A Grace & Sierra sandwich already implies a horrible fate for both of those characters, but to willingly add yourself to such a twisted lunch?
Comic Reactions:
Canon! Poly! Eeeeeeeeeeeee!
Panel 1: Oof, oh man is this a genuinely nasty moment from Carla here.
I mean, I know what she’s referencing and it’s definitely a thing among some parts of the atheist community and it’s based on a real criticism of the Bible. Which is that God in the Bible is described, if you follow it literally and unchanging as every abusive father or partner you ever had, constantly hurting or harming to “teach a lesson” and then “accepting your apology” for his actions. And for “literalists” who believe that all relationships should mirror the perfection of the relationship between man and God, this often breeds a normalization of abusive relationships and frequently places religious barriers for folks trying to escape them (especially women) with that even extending at times to pastors saying it’s their wifely duty to suffer rape and abuse at the hands of their husbands, because that’s “godly”.
And it’s also based on the way Christian Dominionists believe their religion should be the law of the land and enforce that brutally on any group that is different or seen as unholy. Which would be an especially sore point for Carla based on what just happened to Trans kids like her based on that worldview.
And it would also be based on… well, her being abused by “Godly” youth and parents. Like, abusive Christians love stating that their hateful policies towards the other are acts of “love” and that they are just loving the sinner and hating the sin or are just trying to show “God’s love” by forcing a person into reparative therapy or otherwise abusing them (think Toedad’s entire arc). And in transphobic bullying, a lot of parents justify their discriminatory actions, banning kids from the rights to pee on these lofty ideas of “love” and “sympathy” for the trans kid’s “delusions”.
Not to mention she’s also just been abused by Mary, which isn’t likely the first Mary she’s encountered. But it was definitely a person who makes a lot of noise about how filled with Christ’s love she is while actively seeking to hurt or kill marginalized queer folks.
And that last part is interesting to me, because it draws a direct comparison between Carla and Roz. Both had terrible experiences with a “God chick” (Mary) that made them even more hostile to that worldview than they otherwise would be, and both have made nasty comments to Joyce based on that and based on seeing her as in alliance with folks like Mary.
And the thing is… yes, that’s what she was raised to be. But she’s in the process of escaping that and definitely does not hold the same hostility and resistance to growth as Mary and so these statements come across as unduly cruel (Roz reading Joyce the riot act on shared responsibility and Carla making a rather nasty comment about fundies and their ability to know the difference between love and abuse).
Both times it’s Joyce getting a nasty moment because Mary is such a douchebag. And I hope/think we’ll get more Joyce/Carla interactions going forward and Carla will be able to see that not every holy roller is irredeemable and going to turn on them the second she turns her back.
Poly representation!! We hardly ever get any mention.
And it’s a perfectly nice and positive representation too, as opposed to the usual negative type. I mean, could you ask for a better representative for poly than Sierra? I think not.
Good point! Bonus points for this strip. Poly relationships ae mostly depicted as cheating/hedonistic/irresponsible.
I could be wrong, but I usually don’t see poly relationships depicted that way. Those kinds of relationships are far more common in media, but there’s rarely anything that specifically marks them as poly.
The genius David M Willis sure is great at poly representation in his webcomic Dumbing of Age, as opposed to the poor poly representation in the webcomic It’s Walky! by that asshole David M Willis.
I love how much Willis has grown on this and so many issues. And seeing that change in his comics in real-time.
Especially since I came from a bigoted area, so it’s nice to know that doesn’t stick to you forever and that some of my friends from that time have likely become Willis’s in their own communities.
Redemption and growth and learning are good.
… though all that said I’ll still critique the hell out of the poly representation in It’s Walky because holy fuck was it straight white man fantasy cranked up to 11. Especially with all the poly girls all so eager to jump Joe’s bones and him always being centered as a critical part of their dynamic. And *rants for ninety more minutes*
Have we gotten to that part of the reposting of IW! yet? Because I’m really interested in seeing how much Willis cringes at that nowadays.
We have.
http://www.itswalky.com/comic/ill-see-you-off/
The next strips have more of Willis cringing, but that’s the intro.
Ninety more minutes? I thought it’s been firmly established that we only rant for 75 minutes at a time.
[/inside joke]
*slow clap* (The reference is that no matter the topic, our podcast episodes usually run about 75 minutes long)
To be fair watching Joe (or any guy) get it on with a group of girls is not one of my fantasies
Grace and Sierra together (and Mandy) however…
I’m noting Joyce’s small font and expression in Panel 1, and remembering from her revelation in church about Toedad that she understands (or at least had a moment of understanding within the past few days) the criticism of not knowing the difference between love and abuse. In terms of impact on Joyce, I think this is one more stone added to the pile.
Of course it’s nasty and based on assumptions about Joyce’s variant on Christianity. It’s unfair of Carla to do so.
She’s also right. Joyce was raised in that kind of church with that kind of blurring of love and abuse. It just didn’t really take on Joyce and she’s breaking out of it, though she’s likely to have scars from it for a long time.
Panel 2: And I love Joyce here. She’s just so sweet and earnest. And I think much like with Sarah, that’s going to be the undoing of a lot of Carla’s intentional mask of jerk. Cause Joyce sees right through that shit and talks directly to the core self. Also it’s just such a sweet sentiment when she’d be fully in her rights to say “fuck you”.
Panel 3: And that clearly penetrates with Carla based on the strength and lack of believability of her immediate response. It’s clear she carries a little bit of guilt about why there is currently no RA (based largely on what Billie said and not on feeling like it wasn’t the right call to make to save someone’s life) and it’s clear that Joyce’s sunny earnestness is the ultimate foe for Carla’s mask.
And I don’t think Carla has ever come across someone like her who genuinely has tried to reach out and connect and earnestly see her good actions over her front like this. And having that person be a Christian you are terrified will abuse you if they find out what you are likely just ups the stress of it.
But there’s also the obvious as well. Carla likes anarchy. She’s had terrible experience with authority figures and so lacking one in her mind tends to be a good thing. Whereas Joyce likes structures and rules or at least is very used to them so this state of affairs feels delicate and threatened by a collapse into something really bad for her and so she feels that shining, making the hall a better place is her way of fighting that and keeping everyone together*.
*Which might mean, we’ll see Joyce trying to “keep the peace” between a say Carla and Mary argument or a Mary and Billie argument and then learn from that that sometimes one side really is doing major wrong to the other, which would reinforce a lesson she learned dealing with her mom and with Toedad.
“Which might mean, we’ll see Joyce trying to “keep the peace” between a say Carla and Mary argument or a Mary and Billie argument and then learn from that that sometimes one side really is doing major wrong to the other, which would reinforce a lesson she learned dealing with her mom and with Toedad.”
Billie told everyone, which presumably includes Joyce, that Mary blackmailed Ruth and Billie and it led to Ruth’s hospitalization. Granted, we haven’t seen her reaction to that onscreen, but it feels like it would be a step back in her development to assume good faith on Mary’s part–certainly if she was having an argument with Billie.
Very true.
I having the feeling that if Joyce catches Mary getting out of line, or even if Joyce just spends a little more time with Carla, then Mary might be the second character to receive a Joyce Punch!*
*TradeMark of David M. Willis
Panels 4-6: Canon! Poly! Which, I am so happy about. Especially because past depictions of “poly” were… ehhhh to say the least. With Squad 48 often serving as a fantasy idea of a harem orgy and a straight guy’s dream than actual polyamorous relationships (though there were some bright spots like Grace and Mandy’s love being shown brightly and the women of Squad 48’s strong beliefs in healthy communication).
And I love the statements of consent all around and that this does seem to be a happy stable casual triad. And that Grace and Sierra feel fully comfortable with Joyce about this and know that even if she’s freaking out, it’s coming from a place of being sheltered rather than a place of likely using this information to harass or harm them.
I also love that Joyce is freaking out about the “infidelity” rather than the same gender smooching. She’s really come a long way very quickly on her comfort level with queer relationships.
But most of all, I love the body language. Sierra and Grace fully absorbed in their kiss in Panel 4, Sierra’s happy smile and side hug of Grace while Grace answers Joyce’s accusation. And those held hands clasped together in Panel 6. There’s so much tenderness here shown in Grace and Sierra’s dynamic as well as implied tenderness between Sierra and Mandy as well. You can see the love or at least tender sexual connection between them and just how happy they are making each other and how comfortable they are being seen as they are.
And I wonder if part of that comfort is Mary getting shut down hard and knowing that Billie is ready to slap down Mary if she starts shit (after all, Billie talked to everyone on the floor about it), so they can be more open about their romantic relationships (it’s worth noting that we know implicitly that Grace and Mandy are intimate and in love, but we’ve never seen them showing public affection for each other or openly confirming the relationship like this in comic).
With the bigot gone, they can be out and free and themselves. And can show and speak that love in public. And that’s the beauty of a good society. Where people can be themselves and exist as themselves and if it harm none, do as they will and not have to fear backlash or violence.
And that terrifies bigots, because that works directly counter to the deliberate ignorance they try and instill people with. People coming out, being present, feels like an invasion, something to be stopped with violence so that all of “those types of people” disappear from public space and the angry bigot can believe they’ll go back to a casual ignorance where they forget people like that even exist*.
*This is also why bigots tend to swarm around popular works with marginalized representation in them and try and destroy them and their creators or try to make it harder for marginalized groups to form community to protect each other. Because the existence of these works or groups belies that ignorance and so must be destroyed. And it becomes brutal to any person who wants to exist and be seen as themselves rather than a normative mask to try and avoid getting beaten to death.
I would like to take this moment to thank Willis for his diligence in keeping this forum a safe place.
Honest to God I don’t know how the man does it but he does. And I’m thankful as well, makes us feel like a community that can rely on each other.
Could you please fill me in on a bit more detail on that? I’ve apparently been operating on the assumption that the only ‘protection’ (for lack of a better word) on comment sections were admins blocking and banning flamers and trolls after they made hateful comments. Is that what he”s been doing from the start, but he was able to erase their filth BEFORE we saw it?
There are no other admins, only Willis.
Also, remember that the first time someone posts from a new IP, they don’t automatically get approved in this field. Most haters can’t disguise their stupid hatred, and thus tend to get weeded out right away. So yeah, he catches a fair few before we ever see it.
Sometimes he posts a screenshot on Tumblr before sending it to the trash.
Oops, misread you a bit there. Ignore my first sentence.
Thank you, Your Excellency. :3
I’m not poly myself, but one of my closest friends is, and they have a very healthy dynamic. And I love relationships that make people happy. Which is why I critique the hell out romantic comedies when brought to one (it’s time with friends that I rarely get nowadays) because a lot of the tropes involved are kinda unhealthy relationship wise. It’s also why I cry from joy a little whenever I see a really good romantic story where all parties involved work to make each other happy. As I once explained to someone who wondered why the 5’11” 250 lbs. guy was getting all teared up in a movie theater, “I love the practice of love.” Followed by a snarky “You got a problem with that?” It’s just…so nice to see multiple people happy because of each other.
amazing
Carla doesn’t know anything. Joyce is very good at telling love from abuse, she punches abusers!
Even when they claim they were doing their abuse for love!
I share your bafflement about polyamory Grace. Maybe not for the same reasons but definitely the concept is alien.
I don’t think Grace is very baffled about polyamory.
So I bet Joyce is not really into open poly relationships?
I’m waiting for a comic strip where Joyce will try to imagine herself having a threesome and it would be readers vote in side poll who would be 2 lucky people she would be doing it with 😉
Spoilers – one is Sal.
She only recently wrapped her head around homosexual relationships. Let the poor girl catch a breath XD
i only just now realized that marcie is the only member of squad 48 that has gone solo. we wish her all the best
woops! forgot about guns. does she have a counterpart here?
Per this post, she will not be in DofA.
http://itswalky.tumblr.com/post/81364409883/are-there-any-walkyverse-characters-you
I guess that depends on Indiana’s open carry laws.
You’re allowed to openly carry biceps as long as it is not overcast, otherwise known as the “sun’s out, guns out” law.
No idea on firearms.
The evolution of Joyce’s morals is adorable XD
We thought this was going to be “Joyce &! Transgenderism!’ but instead it turned into “Joyce &! Polyamory!”
THE END IS NIGH!
…
I’ll be in my bunk.
What a coincidence, Mandy has spent this entire strip in her bunk.
Just when you thought the Joyce Panic Face had reached its limit…
Yesterday, I thought “I can’t WAIT to see the face she’ll make when she finds out that Carla is transgender!”
Now? I’m not so sure. This is already getting close to nightmare fuel.
By the time she learns about that she will be so used to being scandalized so her reaction will be a completely anticlimactic
“Huh, OK, I didn’t know that was a thing but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing. Anyway, I wonder if it would be possible to add additional gravity connectors to the shoes. You great, I’m bug, etc, etc.”
I met Murder on the way –
He had a mask like Castlereagh –
Very smooth he looked, yet grim;
Seven blood-hounds followed him:
Percy Bysshe Shelley – The Mask of Anarchy
And Sierra’s bisexuality shows itself! If a poly relationship won’t come between Amber, Ethan, and Danny, we’ll have Grandyerra.
My first exposure to polyamory was Archie/Betty/Veronica.
Joyce is adjusting nicely. Previously, she would have been freaking out because two girls were kissing. Now she’s freaking out because the wrong two girls are kissing.
You don’t mess with her ships, after all.
Now she has to upgrade again, poor girl.
I don’t even know what I love more: Joyce’s Very Believable “I don’t know what you’re talking about” in the first panel, or the joyful and secure experience Sierra and Grace are having coming out. There is 0 wariness there, 0 holding back. They are scandalizing Joyce on purpose, and they are confident that no harm will come out of it, and the only consequence will be 1) Joyce being hilarious in the moment and 2) Joyce being securely on their side afterwards.
Bc like… yeah. She will.
As an anarchist, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY approve of this polyamorous message.
To be fair (wait, who is Toby Faire, anyway?), a really clever narcissist *ahem*myfather*ahem* can make abuse seem like love, and then make you seem like the abusive one.