…. again, Willis, allow me to express my admiration for the way that your manic, two-thumbs-up avatar accentuates any comment you make, NO MATTER WHAT THAT COMMENT MIGHT BE.
No, seriously, there’s not a single comment you could make that your avatar’s expression would not go well with.
“I’m quitting making comic strips and it’s your fault, Reltzik.”
OK, that will still look somewhat fitting. Not sure you’ll be as happy once the rest of us find out where you live and send you glitter bombs for the rest of your life, though.
I might not be happy, but the manic face and two-thumbs-up will help a lot of people think he’s being facetious about it being all my fault, which would take some of the heat off. IT STILL WORKS.
I have a suggestion for a mental exercise to deal with your point 2:
1. Take ground beef and whatever seasonings you want, and make taco meat in a pan according to whatever recipe you prefer to follow.
2. Ensure it is at a temperature that will not melt plastic.
3. Pour it into a bag.
You can still have strange love for Taco Bell. Like, if you dream about nuclear war annihilating everything except for you and a bunker full of Taco Bell outlets.
Idk, maybe my friend groups just have much lower levels of TMI than most, but I wouldn’t classify this as “not okay”. I mean, Joe is still Joe and he does plenty of things that gross me out (the most obvious and consistent of which is the whole attractiveness rating thing he does, totally not okay) but generally being open about his sexualized isn’t something that bothers me. Here he’s very clearly respecting Sarah’s boundaries, and is mostly just teasing Joyce–after she essentially demanded he say what was on his mind.
The difference is that’s your friend group, the members of which presumably like each other and are familiar with each others’ boundaries. Sarah and Joe are not friends, and in fact, she’s told him to fuck right off in no uncertain terms. Continuing to aim innuendo at her, even by way of Joyce, screams disrespect of boundaries. Doesn’t matter if he prefaces it with “I won’t even mention” bullshit.
And it’s a good point because it’s an ignoring of boundaries he’s done a lot. Like, he’s ignored boundaries and continued to press with innuendo after a turn-down in this kind of “I’m joking, but I’m actually a little miffed I didn’t get in there, so seriously, do I have a chance, naw, I’m kidding, I respect your boundaries, tell the woman on the phone I respect your boundaries” shtick with Joyce a bunch of times and with Sarah right after she had to scream in his face to get him to leave her the fuck alone.
Like, right now, Joe’s understanding of consent is almost at “no means no” level, which… sadly, for a teenage boy might seem high to him, but in reality, is actually a pretty low bar he’s not even successfully clearing and nowhere near an actual good policy on consent.
Yuuuuuup. “Haha I’m joking…unless you’re into it” is not the step up we were seeking here. Unfortunately in keeping with my memories of 18 year old boys though.
“I don’t date or play with men.”
“Ha ha, well, I wasn’t hitting on you anyways, but seriously if you wanted to, I know X, Y, and Z and…”
“I don’t date or play with men.”
“Come off it (slur), I wasn’t saying anything like that, just that (goes on for another half hour).”
Like, if he’d stopped with the first speech bubble in that panel, that’d be fine. I’d be thrilled. “Sarah’s already rebuffed my advances, so I won’t mention what’s on my mind.”
Granted, it’d still be low-key eyerolly, but it would show definite character growth.
Oh yeah, Joyce is being a major jerk here. And in my opinion is managing to be worse than Joe on consent at least in this instance, but Joe is a human with free will and there’s a lot of ways to avoid being a gross creeper even when needled.
Even with the first speech bubble, he’s doing the same thing – emphasizing he’s still interested and then how emphasizing how good he is at taking rebuffs.
I think youre being a little sensitive and projecting a bit. No one at the table is exactly hidden with their sexuality (heck even joyce makes her feelings known about it, though her opinion differs from everyone elses) and joe’s comment will probably be taken with a “ew dude” from everyone else. Even Joyce is just telling him to shut up
Sarah tries to beg Joe not to break her for his machismo pride, Joe gets heavily defensive, makes one of the most terrifying acephobic statements in the comic to date, casually promotes a form of corrective sexual… (and the dot dot dot has a lot of menace at least for me being ace and being on the receiving end of folks who think I need a “dot dot dot” to be “fixed”), and then interprets Sarah’s disdain for him as an invitation to hit on her later, ignoring everything she’s said:
Joe watches Sarah threaten bodily harm on his creeper father and saw her actively negative body language to creeper shit, decides to still try later to do the same damn thing:
Joe ignores clear negative body language (soft noes), creeps in an intrusive obvious way, ignores Sarah actively warning her friends not to get near him, and having to literally scream at him to get him to back off and even then, he still tries one last time to hit on her and blame her for overreacting at him even though he ignored all attempts to politely rebuff him without screaming in his face:
The person you are thinking of who bonds with Sarah over stories about Joyce’s oddness is Jacob, not Joe. Joe and Sarah have had next to no positive interactions.
The context of this discussion, for those that haven’t being keeping up.
Point one: Joe and Sarah are not friends. Not true, they have established common ground, enjoyed each other’s company and share time together.
Point two: Joe is harassing Sarah in this strip. Also not true. Joe actively objects to Sarah and Joyce coming to the table to do exactly what they complained about him doing in those strips you keep referencing. Not only are they coming on to someone who has clearly stated his intentions lie elsewhere, they are actively expecting Joe to play wingman. Joe says “no” emphatically both via text and by his demeanour.
Jacob is being polite. But, if he allowed to know what was going on, he would probably be a lot more blunt.
Sarah now has four choices.
1. Acknowledge Jacob’s lack of interest and move on.
2. Become embarrassed by Joe’s statement and leave the place she invited herself to. Not likely, shutting Joyce up using inappropriate language is too much fun.
3. Become angry and storm off. Possible, it is a tried and true way to exit an awkward situation.
4. Laugh at Joe teasing Joyce, because that is exactly what is happening. And relax enough to make her latest attempt at breaking up Jacob and his girlfriend in her favour somewhat less awkward.
Whichever way it goes, no one is going to be getting what they want here.
A) They’ve enjoyed each other’s company occasionally, true, but most of their interactions have Sarah being seriously annoyed by him, she’s said she hated him at least once, and she warned people away from sitting with him.
B) Sarah explicitly told Joyce she DIDN’T want to come up here and sit with Jacob to try to get him to break up with Raidah. She hasn’t bothered with that since she dressed up cute and then quit that after about five seconds.
C) There’s a difference between refusing to be someone’s wingman and making comments about how someone being awkward and uncomfortable is ‘doing all kinds of things for him’ and bringing up sex swings. One is a firm ‘No, I’m not playing this game, leave us alone.’ The other is gross and creepy, especially when Sarah literally screamed at him that she was not on his menu. As Cerb noted downwards, there’s a difference between ‘Hey, you mentioned you’re into swings, I have access to one, care to partake?’ and ‘I know you said you’re never going to be on my menu, so I won’t hit on you even though you’re totally turning me on and I’m just gonna casually bring up my sex swing again’. One is fair game, the other is gross ‘I won’t mention X because you don’t like X, also here are details related to X’ behaviour, where people talk about how they WON’T talk about something to get around someone asking them to stop.
The entire timeline of their interactions was Joe trying to double hook himself up to Joyce and Danny to Sarah, Sarah trying to call him out on his creeper shit and not break her roommate, to which he didn’t listen to a single word and interpreted her frustration with him as an invitation to romantically pursue her, be cornered by his dad, threaten his dad with bodily harm if he didn’t stop hitting on her, be creepily hit on by Joe in the same way, he ignored clear body language, Sarah had to scream at him to stop, Joe continued to hit on her even after that no doing so in a “nuh uh, I’m so good at consent” sort of bullshit style that blamed her for his lack of reading of body language and verbal warnings to friends that he was dangerous to be near.
Joyce then did her lack of swearing thing and Sarah enjoyed ribbing Joyce about it at the same time as Joe was and Sarah didn’t remove his limbs for it.
Like, that’s not a sign of friendship or established repartee and certainly does not undo the toxicity of all the previous interactions. And then their next interaction after that is this here.
That’s not “enjoying each other’s company”. That’s not “sharing time together”. That’s certainly not friends. Fuck, I’ve backed off on guys I’ve had to tell off and been civil to them after reading them the riot act because women are under social pressure to “play nice” especially after they’ve just had to be a (slur for assertive woman), doesn’t mean we’ve now got an established history of friendship and really doesn’t mean I enjoyed their shitty harassing company.
Like you’re free to think positively of Joe, even to ship Joe and Sarah together and ignore the evidence of the text, headcanons are great, but this sort of idea that one single second of vague civility cancels out that much toxicity and badness is a toxic one that I’ve had a lot of men use on me and friends of mine to justify continuing to stalk or harass them because they “dared put them in the friendzone” or “sent mixed signals”.
Point 2: Joyce is in the wrong here. More so than Joe, yes. She’s interrupting someone else’s time, taking advantage of social customs, pushing Jacob and Sarah to fulfill a ship neither is interested in actually pursuing at the moment, and doing so in a way that is disrespectful to both Sarah’s stated desire to not be here and Jacob’s established relationship and his desires as to a friendship with Sarah.
Joyce is fucking up big time.
And Joe has some solid positives. Trying to stay quiet initially was a good instinct and a really good positive moment for him. But his follow-up was a lot of the same ol’ crap. Was he pushed into it by a Joyce who refused to take a polite refusal? Hell yeah.
But he’s also an adult with free will and there’s ways to answer “I want to make a crass joke, but she’s already told me off, so I’m not interested” that aren’t “she told me off, also her vulnerability and fear is turning me on, oh yeah, and I have a sex swing if she happens to be interested in that, let me propose that really quick to her and see if she takes me up on that”.
And yes, Jacob is being hella polite. He’s a really good egg and shouldn’t be having his kindness taken advantage of like this by Joyce.
Sarah’s choices. Yeah, she can leave, she can stay. What is most likely because social customs have a rhythm and they’ve already ordered is likely that she’ll continue to try and ignore both Joe and Joyce’s shit and try and ride this out as best she can and interact as little as humanly possible.
And it’s a really insidious type of statement, because it makes objections seem out of proportion. Like, what?!? He said he was respecting your consent and wasn’t going to do the thing you complained about, and yet you still yelled at him. What a humorless feminist, always getting upset about everything.
Hell, it’s very related to his little game when someone finally screams their no at him of play-acting like it’s out of proportion and he would have totally taken the hints that he spent the last few minutes ignoring.
It plays on social niceties and pressures in a bad way and makes it more costly to object to objectionable behavior.
Joyce, honestly, is playing the same type of scummy game, framing her own selfish desire to fulfill her ship as some sort of kindness she’s doing to Sarah so Sarah doesn’t feel she has a reasonable claim to object, because Joyce is trying to be so “nice” to her here.
And both are doing so because of toxic messages and cultures they’ve drowned themselves in that normalize this type of behavior.
There is a lot being ignored here.
Sarah was not just civil to Joe.
Sarah does not hate Joe.
Joe is not the one being the aggressor here.
Sarah and Joyce are working together, in exactly the way Joe described.
This is not being done over Sarah’s objections.
Sarah is not a passive participant.
A) Sarah has said she hates him already. The fact she’s willing to be friendly towards him sometimes does not make them friends.
B) Sarah told Joyce she did not want to come over here and has not said anything to or about Jacob, and she’s flat out contradicted Joyce trying to sell her as a ‘kind and thoughtful person’. That this farce is continuing is all on Joyce. There is no ‘working together’ in Joyce trying to foist Sarah on Jacob.
C) Even if Sarah WERE working with Joyce on this and she and Joe WERE friends, it would not give Joe the right to talk about how hot she makes him and how he has a sex swing if she were interested as though she wasn’t there after she’s told him she’s not on his menu and to stop doing that.
A list of things Sarah has said since they got here
– That she didn’t want to sit with Jacob and Joe.
– That it was not her idea to do so.
– That she is not a kind and thoughtful person, in direct response to Joyce trying to sell Jacob on her.
– Placed her pizza order
– And today, where she said she doesn’t want to talk to other people and that she wanted the presence of others to distract from her. In response to Jacob engaging with her.
Sarah’s being an antisocial asshole again, but she was not involved in busting in on their guy time, and she is not trying to set herself up with Jacob. Actually, she seems to be doing her best to harpoon that by contradicting Joyce and saying he shouldn’t talk to her and to talk to the others. And, y’know, not even looking at him, so you can’t even argue she’s ogling.
@ Skizz and Podia – Sarah is expressing that she does not like Joe in that strip, though and she told him to fuck off, which should have been his point to not approach her again for sex, which he did later. Even if the reason she doesn’t like him has nothing to do with him hitting on her, that should equal a ‘back off’. And, again, bad consent practices – he sees Sarah’s anger and just goes ‘eh, she’d be good in bed’, not listening to a word she said.
There is some character growth here. It shows that Joe commits to some level of restraint when the other party rebuffs his advances. That’s streets ahead of your typical in-it-for-the-sex type character.
I don’t see Joe as actually still hitting on Sarah with the mention of the sex swing, except as an accidental microaggression sort of thing. He’s only continuing to annoy Joyce.
Joe is teasing _Joyce_ with that last speech bubble: it’s got nothing to do with Sarah.
He is and he isn’t. I don’t think he’s seriously expecting to get anywhere, but he doesn’t really have another mode for public conversations with girls. (Or really with boys either – there he talks about the girls.)
And seriously “Sarah’s behavior is doing all sorts of things for me”? I don’t know if it’s hitting on her, but if it’s not aimed at her, she’s certainly taking collateral damage.
Where do you find multi-track recordings like this? (Besides the obvious shady sources.) Rock Band and Guitar Hero, maybe? This is a wet track, but it’s still much too clean to have been processed from the final mix.
I misread it at first and thought Joyce said “shove it right back into the Sun”, which kind of makes sense but at the same time doesn’t?
Horribly impractical, though. Have you seen the delta-v map of the Solar System? There’s a reason we haven’t ACTUALLY launched anything into the Sun, after all.
It’s as though people don’t get that you can’t just point a rocket at the sun and send it on its way. Anything launched directly at the sun is going to miss. You have to go REALLY fast to hit the sun. Or is it more correct to say you are already going really fast have to slow down a lot?
Who knows what kind of wacky astronomy she got taught by her parents.
And it’s not so hard to launch something into the sun, so long as you’re willing to pay the cost of getting it out of Earth’s gravity well and don’t mind it crashing into the sun or disintegrating so fast that you can’t get useful data back. This has the added benefit of not having to construct a receiver that can pick out a probe’s transmission signal from the single largest source of EM noise for light years in any direction.
“I’ve… seen things you people wouldn’t believe… crazy sex at the end of a grapple line… Joe’s dad grinning in the dark, and lesbian elbows… all these moments will be lost in the Fuck Zone, behind a paywall… time to Slipshine.”
What’s depressing about this is I think I know who owns the sex swing and that makes this really sad. Cause I’m 90% sure it’s Penny and that relationship is one that is super toxic for Joe and he doesn’t even recognize how bad it is for him because he’s enamored of the fantasy Penny represents of the “hot teacher”.
I’m sure Joe could find a cheap one on Amazon that can attach to his door.
Also Penny and Joe aren’t necessarily toxic, any more than other casual sex relationships with an age difference (aside from one of them being Joe). We haven’t seen them.
I think the main reason it is toxic is because Penny seems likely to be Joe’s teacher in one subject or another.
Now it’s true that I do not know this, I only suspect it. But Penny is happily admitting that she doesn’t give a single fuck about the “don’t fraternize with students” rule. So we know at least that she will gladly have sex with students in her class.
And while there are other ways for her to have found out about Joe (such as him being featured in the student paper over the video scandal), him being in her classroom would be the most probable cause for them to meet.
I’d say the biggest reason I think he’s her student without it being explicitly stated is because he shows up to have sex with her right after she’s told Jason it’s perfectly fine to have sex with your students as long as you can get away with it. I’d be -really- surprised if that was not a big case of narrative imperative.
Oh, yeah, that would make sense; I stand corrected.
I still don’t think this necessarily harms Joe directly, but that’s outweighed by the huge creepiness factor of sleeping with your students. Even though Joe is particularly fine with it, sexing up one’s students is bad news, don’t do that pls.
Student-teacher relationships are flat across the board vile in my eyes. No matter the excuses. You don’t date a student. Period. Because you should never be in a position where you see your student body as a dating pool, because no. Just no. Not even if it’s “a different classroom technically”. Not even if “they’re mature for their age”. Not even if “they’re practically my age anyways”.
You don’t date your students. And honestly the very thought of it makes me want to vomit.
Trying to find the wiggle-room in consent practices is loathsome to me, but I’ll make it specific to Penny. If they are in the same institution, hell no. If they are on the same level of what you’re teaching, hell no.
You don’t date students and acting like what Penny is doing is like some weird edge case like “oh, you were dating already and you’re the same age, but your partner went back to school after you were dating” instead of her predatorily looking for a fresh face 18-year-old in the same institution and probably same class she teaches is not really something that sits right with me.
“acting like what Penny is doing is like some weird edge case ” – It’s not fair to accuse someone of that for replying to what you said. You are responsible for your words. (And “same institution” is a bit much, and maybe it’s people having an attitude that inevitably implies all the local bars are closed to her that have left her frustrated enough to not care at all.)
In general, there’s a concern that, in a situation where one person has power over another, that power can be used to coerce behavior. Coercing sexual behavior is particularly frowned upon. In specific, just about every relationship has a power imbalance in it, but the combination of a teacher’s age, official position, experience, plus grade power, balanced against the student’s youth, inexperience, and sexual insecurities is considered way too unbalanced to be safe.
That’s the big reason why, yeah, when there’s a power dynamic, consent ends up being compromised a lot, because now there are other factors that can heavily influence a no about an activity or continuing the sex or relationship.
The other reason is preying where you have power is creepily predatory and is like 90,000 red flags on its own. Like, even if you dot all your i’s and cross all your t’s, the fact that you’re dancing that close to a line is suspicious. It’s similar to when someone just “happens” to date people who just turned 18 and is very careful not to sleep with them until their 18th birthday. It’s legal, but it’s a type of practice that gets real suspicious real fast and a sign of some nasty red flags.
Huh… I was about to admit, Joe’s actually being slightly tactful for a moment.
Or perhaps it’s more accurate to say that he is less untactful compared to Joe’s usual low standards, for a moment.
But only for a moment.
See, if he had only done the “Sarah’s behaviour does things for me but she’s already rebuffed my advances” and -stopped right there-, then it would have been a small step forward in being… Well, being less of a Joe. It’s certainly not a big step, what with describing his interest in Sarah in that manner; but at least he’d be acknowledging her disinterest in him.
That, and also that he was not mentioning it at all until he got prodded by Joyce. I’ll give him that much.
And then he takes it all away by -not- stopping there but going into creep mode again and basically try to hit on Sarah by not hitting on her. “Oh, I’m not going to hit on you again. Incidentally, I have access to a sex swing. Nudge nudge, wink wink.” Suuure, we -totally- believe that you’re not trying to convince anyone to join in on that…
Tsk tsk tsk.
Actually, now that I come to think about it, he might actually be sincerely not hitting on Sarah here. Might. It could possibly, just possibly, be his way of trying to get back at Joyce for trying to play matchmaker.
I’d say that this strip has absolutely none of the breakthroughs. NONE! Joe’s lack of breakthrough was the first to really jump out at me, but both Sarah and Joyce are sliding back into their respective bad habits here.
Though I’ll say that at least Sarah’s behaviour is probably the most understandable of the three. She was pressured into this situation and is severely uncomfortable with it. Even people who normally don’t hate people can end up saying things in frustration at that point.
And poor Jacob must be thinking “Man, these three people are all weirdos.”
Yeah, true. :/ I can understand where Sarah’s coming from, and have probably blurted out something similar on the occasion where all my socializing spoons are long since used up and someone insists on pestering me, but Joyce backslid a bit too. I guess with all the growing she’s been doing lately, a regression had to happen soon. Development is all two steps forward, half a step back and whatnot.
Well, gotta keep in mind that it’s only been a couple months since we met them (comic time). You really aren’t going to get a whole lot of cognitive changes in that time. Old habits die hard. And I don’t really feel the hate for Joe. I think he’s often inappropriate, but not in a malicious sense. In my mind, his thought process was: “Sarah said something that makes me want to make a sexual joke. From experience, Sarah doesn’t respond well to those. Joyce told me to speak up, but Joyce doesn’t like that kind of joke. Ok, Joyce is pushing me, time to mess with Joyce a little.” Yes, he talks about sex more than is appropriate, but it seems like he does not more as a norm of interactions that worked with his friends in the past.
I think the things that Joe says would be worse if I thought he said them seriously, but I don’t. I think they are jokes and flirts and messing with people, which takes it from being super creepy and makes it “roll your eyes and throw a pillow at him”
It’s “roll your eyes and throw a pillow at him” if you’re actually friends with him. Flirting, even in a joking manner, with someone who’s told you to back off is creepy. Telling them that them being angry with you over it or uncomfortable in the social setting turns you on is creepy as hell. Way over the boundary line.
Joe’s in an awkward place here, because Joyce is being even more out of line, but he handles it really badly. Badly in a way that reinforces all his other problematic behavior.
It’d be something if he was actually trying to drive Sarah (and Joyce) off now that he knows what Joyce is trying to do. Like, if he just continued to make comments about that and others about his sex life.
Regardless, it’s still incredibly creepy and inappropriate.
They’re already doing the couple dynamic. She knows he’s thinking something, and knows she will regret it, and still makes him say it. And, she regretted it, and knew it was her own fault, so she couldn’t really blame him.
For some reason I’m rather skeeved out at Joyce’s (unsubtle) “this behaviour is no way to attract a boyfriend”
I’m getting a 19th century lady’s etiquette vibe from it.
“that is no way for a young lady in search of a gentleman caller to behave”
Yeah, the purity norms of that culture and the way that relationships… or rather heterosexual relationships are made the primary goal of every woman are kinda super toxic and archaic.
Both Joyce and Becky have commented on it and Dorothy and Joyce had a big conversation during the mock marriage thing about it as well.
Her repeated insistence that Joe has something to say (hint hint, back me up on this) rings that bell for me–can’t really place why, but something about the phrasing is doing it.
I went to a fundie college. Some of the cuter popular girls did a spoof on the whole culture where they sang “Going to and I’m trying to get married.” instead of “Going to the chapel and I’m gonna get married.”
Seriously, they call it an MRS degree. A girl goes to college just to snag a smart boy with good morals and maybe get a nice teaching degree so she can help support him while he preaches. But only as a substitute, that way she can dedicate herself to the household as she ought. Yeeeeaaahhh… It was a thing.
It’s not just fundie culture. Pretty much every major religion — granted, some more so than others — preached modesty, morality, and chastity among the females.
I guess I’m a bit “meh” on Joe’s…detox? Whatever the hell you wanna call it.
This is normal for him (not right, but normal) so to have him be his normal self around a group of people who have zero interest in him says something.
Joe’s smart enough now to know that nobody at the table wants to play on his swing.
I don’t know, guess it didn’t bother me as much. Don’t get me wrong, Joe’s still Joe, this page just proved that, but in terms of development? It’s still there for sure.
Am I the only person who finds Joe funny? He may be a bit of a horny toad but he has never forced himself upon the unwilling, and i dont see mentioning the sex swing as even an advancement. Hell i even took it as Joe making a joke to tease Joyce. Maybe my friends and i are all pervs but we talk about this kinda stuff all the time.
Exactly. Joe’s a joke. Nobody on campus honestly believes Joe’s got a chance with any girl, especially considering how actively negative he makes himself look.
Sure, it doesn’t justify his ignorance, but it certainly doesn’t prove it harmful. He’s seemingly reached a point of meta with it considering how much he’s been texting Joyce.
Canonically, two. Though it’s interesting that in both cases (Roz & Penny) they were as likely to be the active party in setting it up as he was.
According to Joe’s statements, there have been many more, including at least one threesome. It’s possible he’s lying and projecting a studly image while actually failing horribly with women and has been doing so successfully even to his “best friend” since high school. I don’t think there’s any real support for that theory.
It may be that he’s just physically hot enough and tries often enough that he gets laid regularly, despite having a low success ratio.
As I’ve said before, I’d really like to see Joe in action at some point. See him at a party, see how his game works, especially when he gets soft nos and how of if he tries to push past them.
I’m just gonna paste my response from above at you, and probably everyone else who comes in with the “but my friends talk like this all the time” line.
The difference is that’s your friend group, the members of which presumably like each other and are familiar with each others’ boundaries. Sarah and Joe are not friends, and in fact, she’s told him to fuck right off in no uncertain terms. Continuing to aim innuendo at her, even by way of Joyce, screams disrespect of boundaries. Doesn’t matter if he prefaces it with “I won’t even mention” bullshit.
A very good point. Some of the stuff my friends and I say to each other is pretty horrific, but we know we don’t mean it seriously. We don’t talk like that to strangers or casual acquaintances.
(I do wonder about people overhearing us in restaurants sometimes. We may be “those people”.)
“Maybe my friends and i are all pervs but we talk about this kinda stuff all the time.”
What you and your friends do together is, I suspect strongly, an entirely different thing than what Joe is doing. What friends say to each other as a joke that everybody is in on and comfortable with is one thing.
Joe, on the other hand, is the sort of person who enters a classroom to talk about scissoring, even when the entire room is crying from hearing about the awful treatment of LBGQT people.
That’s genuinely being a self-absorbed asshole to the 13th degree. I hope that at least you and your friends aren’t doing that kind of thing.
Actually, we haven’t seen much from Joe barring him texting Joyce, so it’s possible he cooled it on a lot of his personality.
Not likely because it’s Joe, but still. If he’s learned anything from Joyce it’s that there’s certainly areas even he doesn’t want to cross. Perhaps he’s toned back for the sake of not crossing it.
* Does not care a single bit for “feelings”: Check
* Only thinks of Danny (supposedly best friend since kindergarten) in terms of how Danny can help him meet chicks: Check
* Thinks of chicks mainly as something to have sex with: Check
And as I mentioned in my own comment above… He’s not really toned down much.
I find him funny but more in the sense that I find a lot of the characters who aren’t outright ‘villains’ like say, Mary or the Toe, but who have behavior that would be seriously harmful irl as more part of the comedic structure. While DoA isn’t a ‘joke a day’ strip, a large number of strips end on a humourous note, so I think I just react to them as more filling a narrative role – ‘here’s the outrageous/over the top humour to wrap up the strip’ – and don’t fully integrate the magnitude of whatever it was with the story.
I find him funny, despite recognizing that that last thought should have been kept to himself.
Then again, I’ve never had to put up with the kind of stuff Joe pulls all the time being directed at me. I can definitely see how dealing with real-life Joes (and worse) would drain the humor out of it.
Yeah, I suspect that’s a major divergence between me and a lot of folks. I’m queer and ace and hang in very “sexually liberal” communities. I get a lot of Joes who like to view me as a “challenge” and get all their egos and senses of self wrapped up in “converting me” or “fixing me” or just trying to be a dick to me because I have no interest in sleeping with them or putting up with their casually sexist bullshit and bad consent practices.
I’m glad you didn’t put up with it, but sorry you have to deal with it at all. I hang out with sexually liberal people who anxiously respect the hell out of my soft Nos — people disrespecting you should not be considered normal/okay.
As someone who’s the only straight person in my clique, I concur. It’s why I work at one. That, plus it’s where all my (still living) friends hang out.
For kink spaces, Fetlife is your friend, but be careful, look for queer-specific groups and scout out the community before playing with folks.
Some larger cities might also have queer bookstores/coffee shops/community centers that also tend to have a lot of fliers for groups and local events where you can meet folks.
Groups can also be a great way to meet some early friends who share similar traits.
More importantly, local centers are often full of fliers for various events, including ones where you’ll already have one thing you’ll likely have in common.
For nerdy type folks, Renn Faires are good for meeting other geeks who like to dress up and there are guilds in them that are more social and involve more direct hanging out. Similarly, many game stores will have nights where gaming groups meet so you can meet folks that share hobbies and can even join someone’s D&D or other tabletop group which is good for chilled nerdy hangout spaces.
Similarly, don’t discount internet spaces. I’ve had some of my strongest friendships and the ones that most helped me in critical times form online in forums or blogs or comics I’ve read and social media apps like tumblr, twitter, and facebook tend to have great mini-communities focused on all sorts of specific interests and can even have spaces for organizing things more locally with folks that share interests and not all of them are toxic. It’s not meatspace, but it’s definitely not nothing.
And finally there’s things like cons if you can afford them. Great for meeting other folks who are comic, furry, anime, etc… nerds in a local hangout space.
Overall, for those with social anxiety, the trick is not to overthink things. Be yourself, but be aware of other people’s boundaries and consent and don’t take things personally if things don’t quite hit off with a person.
Additionally, there’s also clubs, writing groups, art collectives, etc… in most cities that make it easy to get connected and the organization and structured meeting times can help if you have social anxiety and find it easy for your brain to make excuses not to hang with folks or suck about making plans with folks.
Initial introduction Joe being only interested in who he can have sex with bothered me, however the more he and Joyce interact the more I like him as a character.
Which is…basically what happend with It’s Walky! as well.
Yeah, I just hope that here he winds up having to confront his toxic behavior rather than just (mostly) developing out of it without ever having to admit how problematic it was, like the IW! version did.
There’s a part of me that really dislikes how pushy Joyce is being about trying to hook Sarah up with Jacob when Sarah clearly seems to be uncomfortable with it. I know Joyce is trying to help her friend, but I really wish she’d notice this is not working and take a step back.
Joyce’s actions are hella creepy. I mean, yeah, Joe is being creepy too. But Joyce is hitting a level of creepy where even Joe recognizes it as off-color and bad.
Joe should definitely quit before he digs himself into too big of a hole, but Joyce’s actions rub me in all the wrong ways. Not only is she being really pushy with her friend who is very clearly not comfortable with this situation, but is trying to push her into a relationship with someone who is already in one and by all means seems to be happy in said relationship. That’s just awful.
Not to mention Sarah obviously has issues socializing with others, which I suspect might be due to some level of anxiety. However, I fully admit that might be me reading too much into a situation due to me suffering from a similar issue and knowing how it feels to have friends doing similar things that Joyce is attempting to do here.
The thing is that Joe’s acknowledging a rejection and accepting it. He might be too upfront with the exact nature, but “rejection noted” and no longer pressing.
Joyce… isn’t. And, sure it comes from a well-intended place, but that almost makes it worse, because you have all the more effort to make to tell her “no”.
Exactly, Joe heard the no and he’s taking as a no, sure he’s very (too very) open about the fact that he’s attracted to, but it’s a statement not a request and there’s no expectation behind it.
Joyce on the other hand (thinks she) knows better then you what what you want, and she’s going to make sure she gives it to you, no-matter how many times you say no or ask her to stop.
Joe is much better at consent then Joyce, he’s just more openly sexual and so the fact that he’s not super great at consent is more obvious.
No longer pressing, but mentioned again, even before the sex swing bit. And that’s in the face of an angry, near threatening rejection. Would it be the same with a more softly, tentatively expressed “no”?
Joe’s only real excuse here is that Joyce is being even worse with her matchmaking and she pushes him to say it. Of course, he still didn’t have to actually go there.
You know what though? Joyce is the one who came to him for this. This is what he’s got. Is Joe doing a horrible job of hitting on Sarah so more, or a great job of getting Joyce to stop asking him to play matchmaker when he clearly doesn’t want to do so?
As I said, Joyce is being even worse. I don’t think he’s doing any clever ploy or anything. If he really wanted to distract from Sarah’s uncomfortableness and drive them away, he could have gone back to hitting on Joyce – obviously that’s why she came over to sit next to him, because she wants him.
I’ll give him credit that he initially tried to stay quiet, but he didn’t try really hard. Partly I think it’s just his default – women and how hot they are and sex are what he talks about. He doesn’t have anything else.
You know I kinda find Joe a lot like Jonny Bravo, if anyone here watched that show.
He’s a character and I take half the shit from his mouth as a joke anyway.
Also, I do totally ship Joyce and Joe together… They’d be kinda good for each other. To calm down Joe and de-fundie-ize Joyce.
Assuming the relationship worked, yes. They would provide new and world-view-expanding perspectives to one another, complimenting each others’ shortcomings.
Nah, Joe’s a lot better at backing off. Also it took Johnny to a movie finale special (which nobody saw) where he literally became famous to start getting any on the regular.
I actually like joe and see him as rather funny abd likeable hes just a horndog. Hes not foreceful he backs off when told. And doesnt judge others in who and how many people they have sex with acceot danny who admittedly did xeserve to be somewhat judged for some of his stupid behavior. But i see it more of him trying to make joyce uncomfortable and making aj ass of himself because je knows this is awkward for Sarah and Jacob and trying to .ake a good excuse for either of them to leave. Either sarah gets to huff off and be secretly grateful or he can say hey jacob lets go
Yeah, this is going to be another episode of Cerberus gets on her hobby horse about consent, but seriously, it’s an issue that’s important to me. Not just because of my own negative experiences with sexual assault, but because it’s such a crucial part of so many human dynamics and the absence of really good practices surrounding it leads to a lot of major social problems and the normalization of absolute horrific monsters like Donald Trump where he was inappropriately touching little girls on stage and admitted to sexual assault and tried to do a full kiss embrace of his daughter and half the country voted for him anyways.
Are any of the consent fuckups as bad as all that? No. But it shouldn’t just be the worst of it, because there’s a whole system of common bad practices that allows the big wrongs to go unchecked.
So yeah, hobby horse time.
Panels 1 and 2: And the first one I’m gonna rail against is Joyce. This situation is not something Sarah wants to do and by trying to force her through it for her own ships, she’s actively putting Sarah into a miserable position.
Like, fuck, her body language screams vulnerability and discomfort. And it makes sense. Jacob is a recent crush dating someone who harassed her for a year who was a former friend. And someone she has only just started rebuilding normal communication with when they are alone.
Which is a fair sight different than in front of a person whose interactions have mostly been negative for her and the person she first bonded with Jacob by telling embarrassing stories about. And being in a very public place where she’s more likely to feel observed, which is really hard for a closed-in person like Sarah.
And Joyce has opened by putting her in a really crappy position, acting like a matchmaker selling Sarah off to Jacob, setting her right next to him and hinting at her to flirt in public in front of the man’s friend.
And that statement ends up sounding desperate even as it attempts to play off as guarded and indifferent. Like, please god Joyce and Jacob, no, don’t put me on the spot. I can’t, not right now.
And that’s played up a lot more by her body language which is heavily distressed (arms crossed, eyebrows furrowed, eyes glancing away from everyone, grabbing shoulders roughly). Hell, it’s damn close to the body language I get when I’m having a full blown panic attack.
Panel 3: And Joyce, I love you girl, but what you are doing here is actively wrong and harmful to your friend. You are pressing against stated discomforts and noes all to serve a selfish desire you’ve convinced yourself is a selfless one. Forcing these two together will not make either happy and you need to let it go.
And frankly, the idea that Sarah should be in boyfriend-hunting mode simply because she has a crush is hella toxic to begin with.
Plus, for fucks sake Joyce, she’s drowning out there in the ocean you just threw her into. Instead of making it text that you’re trying to set her up with the person you already know is in a committed relationship, fucking throw her a life raft and start up some light conversation. Even if Sarah and Jacob were all on-board SS Sarob, putting them on the spot in public is not going to be conducive to romantic feelings.
And that is a problem that Joyce needs to deal with at some point, that her desires as to the lives of others don’t and shouldn’t matter more than a hill of beans and there’s some things she’s better off staying out of and trying not to force. Especially when they are causing a person this much active distress.
Like, fuck, at that level of distress, Joyce would be well served by trying to set up excuses and move tables so Sarah can recalibrate in peace rather than trying to double down on a Titanic.
I’d just like to say that I’ve been following your commentary for a looong time (long before I ever signed up to join in on the comments section myself, which was only very recently), and with each strip I vastly look forward to reading your Comic Reactions. They’ve helped me with a few things.
To me it feels like she’s not used to needing to dealing with other people’s boundaries being significantly different than her own, so signs that other people are getting uncomfortable aren’t even registering with her. Like with the way she would loom over people when they woke up, she didn’t even realize there was a problem until it was explicitly pointed out to her.
I can’t tell how much is her being too focused on pairing the two of them up to think about what Sarah actually wants and how much is just really bad social skills. Because it’s like there’s caution tape and traffic cones all over, and she’s walking right through them as if she can’t see them.
I think there’s parallels to be made between her and Joe. Both have been pumped full of toxic messaging and wrapped in toxic worldviews and both have a lot of work to do to get to a good level of actual meaningful consent practices.
Except it’s not JOYCE’S desires for Sarah and Jacob, it’s GOD’S desires. It’s not something you’re supposed to question. Joyce is assuming boyfriend-hunting-mode because she isn’t even aware there are alternatives. Oh, sure, if pressed she’ll acknowledge they’re there, but the awareness isn’t strong enough to impact her decisions.
And something tells me that the busybody pry-into-other-peoples’-romantic-relationships thing is a part of her upbringing. Like, all the role models in her life, from pastor to mom to other church ladies, either did this or gave it tacit approval. This isn’t just bad decision-making on her part, it’s so deeply rooted in her notion of rightness that she isn’t even deciding.
You’re right, of course, the entire scene is completely fucked up*. Just felt like pointing out one more way in which it’s fucked up.
*Except for what Sarah ordered to eat, that part’s okay.
No, I’m going to say it’s Joyce’s. She is aware that Jacob has a girlfriend. Therefore, Boyfriend/Girlfriend is established. Considering she has no actual reason to believe Radiah is a bad girlfriend (other then not liking her, WE don’t have any actual reason to believe Radiah is a bad girlfriend), Joyce is wanting to break up a couple solely as a result of her desire to see Sarah with somebody. That diverges a bit from the Christian narrative.
Except breaking up an “ungodly” couple that isn’t “destined” is also a good tradition in that culture. After all, what is “how it should end up” should matter much more than paltry concerns of what the people in the relationship want (see the creepy way the For Better or Worse author tried to force Anthony/Elizabeth to work despite the person Elizabeth was based on having no interest in her mom’s weird ships and the characters she had created’s previous arcs).
And that worldview gets even more toxic with regards to things like mixed religion relationships, queer relationships, interracial relationships, etc… because “by being ungodly”, those around the relationship are now under moral obligation to try to do anything and everything possible to break up the couple and get the individuals with “proper” partners.
Joyce is an excellent fucking case study of what purity culture does to consent and boundaries.
By which I mean: I grew up in that shit. Joyce doesn’t recognize her friends’ boundaries because she doesn’t recognize personal boundaries are a thing that can exist at all. Because she wasn’t allowed them growing up.
Growing up in that culture, you get no privacy, even in your own thoughts (in more secular households like mine, because your parents could and would demand you divulge whatever you were thinking about in great and gory detail at any moment and if it wasn’t considered “appropriate” than you’re in hot water but if it’s not suitably juicy that they could use it as fodder for whatever object lesson they wanted to turn you into at the moment they would just call you a liar and berate you until you give them something they can use. In Joyce’s situation (with her mother at least), she probably had that, plus the eavesdropping pervert omnipotent and omnipresent stalker/abusive spouse figure that is the Christian purity culture God.
Your parents’ personal boundaries are presented as institutional boundaries, on par with wearing a dress to Church if you’re a woman or girl (my mother is old-fashioned and fundie) or not talking in class at school. But you, personally? You get no privacy or down time. Ever.
If your folks see you relaxing, it’s “Well, if you’re not doing anything, why don’t you do [this make-work]?”
And you can never make plans without running them by your folks first and even then your plans can be ruined at a moment’s notice. “I know you wanted to go work on that project thingie sweetie but I’ve just remembered I have an errand to run in town. You can look after the kids and make sure they do their homework and make dinner for them, right? Oh, and there’s two loads of laundry that need to be done and the lawn needs mowing, you can do that too, right?”
(which once in a while, ok. More often than not when you have a group project, to the point that it’s easier to lie and say you’re going to the library “to study” after school because studying is Approved Of but the possibility of unsupervised socialization is not and your classmate’s parents both work so two 17YOs might wind up without direct supervision and without one in charge for all of an hour or so, which is the REAL reason for your mother’s endless stream of “emergencies” that throw a road block in your plans for the day)
And it would certainly only be worse if you’re brought up in a home-schooling family.
And if any time you’ve ever tried to erect a boundary in your life, it was bulldozed over and you were guilted until you aceded always under the guise that if you “really wanted” the boundary to stay, you could “just say no”? You learn not to have boundaries. And you learn that the socially acceptable response to someone else’s boundaries is to wheedle and cajole and sometimes just outright ignore them until they do what you want.
And that’s what we see Joyce doing.
It’s going to blow up at her sooner or later… I’m hoping sooner rather than later. Cuz that shit is really not ok.
… how I wound up learning about boundaries is I let a friend cajole me into going to an activity that I knew for damn sure was going to be sensory hell for me. I wound up having a meltdown there because sensory hell, and her response surprised the shit out of me because she 1, apologized for asking me to go after I’d already expressed reluctance, and then asked me to let her know if stuff she was inviting me to would affect me like that, because if it would she’d suggest another thing, and then 2, followed through on it.
It was just… what? Saying no, and having it respected, is an option? What?
(there’s a reason I spent most of my first year of uni thanking my friends for being “so nice” to me and having really weirded out friends who didn’t understand why being actual friends and respecting boundaries was apparently worthy of effusive praise and gratitude)
Oh, and note that every time Joyce has expressed a firm boundary, she’s expressed a boundary she was raised to believe is institutional. Here: Don’t be lustful. When she was screaming at him not to touch her, she’s expressing the purity culture boundary of women don’t let men touch them, and so on.
Joyce very rarely expresses a personal boundary because it’s how she feels. She expresses boundaries she feels are supported by the institutions she was raised in – but if Sarah wanted to drag Joyce off to some activity Joyce hated, she’d go along because she feels she should, and she’d probably be unable to give a hard “No, I’m not comfortable with this,” to it if it’s not a thing she can back up with her social institutions’ rules.
All of what you said and yeah, learning that she and others have personal boundaries is likely to be one of the next big growth arcs for her, I think.
We’ve been seeing examples of her starting to recognize things about it with the conversation with Dorothy during the mock marriage and in her weekend with the family and we’re seeing her screw stuff up because of those lack of boundaries with Sarah here.
I just hope she learns more about boundaries before she doesn’t just get choked or pushed off a bed, she gets actively knocked on her ass.
I do not like people other than family, the boyfriend, and sometimes friends in my bubble – I also don’t like being touched while I’m sleeping. Doing both the way Joyce is? I think that my ‘scared awake’ reaction would have been to slap her and that would not have gone well.
Youngest of four – John, Jordan, Jocelyne, and her. In Walkyverse she had two more brothers, Jared and Justin.
It’s an interesting question though – she told Billie it was her job to wake her brothers at home. This might be part of it (at least the ‘climbing up onto people’s beds’ part).
I’m the eldest of two or a bunch or a metric fuckload depending on how you count (it’s complicated).
Youngest kids in big families tend to be allowed to get away with bloody murder relative to what would be expected of the eldest at a similar age. The eldest (you see this with John) is expected to be secondary parent, and winds up having more of a parental/caretaker role to the younger sibs than a traditional sibling role – complicated by the fact that the younger sibs don’t see them as a parent but as a sib. The youngest, on the other hand, is the baby and gets away with everything largely because they’re cute(r) than the older siblings. Youngest kids tend to have looser standards on politeness and behavior than older kids had at the same age (partly because parents have figured out what’s actually age-appropriate to expect, partly because parents need to pick their battles in big families, but mainly because there’s just too many kids to pay attention to so you can’t pick apart one in particular as much as you could when there was only one or two of them).
An example from my household: when I was 17, as the eldest, if I had a friend over while the parents weren’t home, I’d be grounded for a month, no excuses. One of my sibs, as one of the youngest at 17, had a house party with 30 kids and underage drinking and all that while my folks were away… My folks thanked her for cleaning up and praised her responsibility for making sure nobody drove drunk.
Then there’s the fact that youngest sibs get to act immature because they make the parents go “Aw, that’s cute” and “Remember when [eldest sib] did that?” They make the parents feel nostalgic about the past and also there’s the fact that the youngest is, well, the youngest – there won’t be another kid coming along to take over tackle-hug-first-thing-in-the-morning duties. When that kid grows out of it, that’s it. So parents (or, my parents, at least) don’t push youngest kids to grow up as quick because they want to treasure the childishness while they can get it.
My point is that: You’re probably not wrong – in that Joyce was allowed to get away with stuff her sibs wouldn’t have been.
(Cue youngest kids piling on about how the eldest always got to do cool shit and got new stuff instead of hand-me-downs and thought they were so much better and smarter and in some cases used the power that came with being eldest to push around their sibs… all of which is a fair criticism of eldest kids, I admit)
OTOH, Joyce was a girl in a fundamentalist Christian family. As youngest and a girl, she probably did get doted on and indulged more than the others, but she also certainly faced boundaries and limitations they didn’t
Oldest of three here, and yes, that shit drove me crazy. Example: I would have to beg just to borrow the car to drive to the library, or a friends house, somewhere I didn’t really want to ride a bike too. However, I was expected to drive the two younger ones wherever they needed to go. Fast forward to me going off to university, only to discover when I come home for a weekend visit that Dad had bought youngest sister a car because I wasn’t around anymore and they didn’t want to drive her around.
Goddamn it’s 8 AM and I’m eating pancakes and I don’t believe in God but just gave thanks to all those non-existent deities that I wasn’t born in such an awful environment.
Panel 6: Okay, let me start out by praising the good of Joe. He’s shown some actual good consent awareness. At least at the obvious sides of “no means no”. Like, his earlier commentary to Joyce over text pointing out how toxic her actions were being and that neither Jacob nor Sarah seem to want what she’s pushing for. That was good.
Similarly, holding his damn tongue on Sarah and remembering and recognizing that Sarah screamed in his face her noes and not pushing his usual shit on her because of that.
Hell, a lot of his interactions with Joyce are a lot better. At least in text he’s massively turned down the innuendo and who knows, he might be finally processing through some of his toxic baggage and growing into the sort of guy that it might not be actively dangerous to date.
So yeah, I’m gonna praise him for that, cause I gotta still shred him for the rest of it.
I say he almost understands “no means no”, because as Shiro pointed out above, he’s still doing this shitty fucking “oh you said no, but hey, I’m still gonna throw out a few lines and see if I catch a retraction”. His respect for noes is not final and respectful and a part of him still views things as a challenge and that leads to bullshit like “oh, I won’t mention I have access to a sex swing, but I totally have access to a sex swing and besides her “behavior” is “doing it for me”.
It’s… okay, like, imagine there’s a guy who’s stated he likes you, but then says it’s cool, he knows you’re not interested, but then keeps on making comments about how hot you are and little invitations for sex while stressing how important it is to him that you’re friends and he’s aware you’re not interested and he respects that.
Would you trust him to mean that or would you suspect that this guy is going to be whining about friendzones within the month?
It’s the same sort of thing here.
So, he “almost” understands no means no.
And the sad truth is that no means no is a real fucking low bar and it is a travesty that so often so many, especially so many who are young men fail even that low bar.
And well, I grew up as someone who believed at the time that I was a straight male and I was given that low bar and I despised it, because I recognized it then as I do now as a joke of a bar compared to what consent in its fullest form should actually be.
And that’s where Joe fails. He consistently fucks up “yes means yes”. That pushing through soft and hard noes is not okay. That someone must physically rebuff advances to even get the weird retaliatory creeper jokes he makes afterwards.
And well, the creeper shit he admits here. Like let’s unpack one half of a line:
“Sarah’s behavior is doing all sorts of things for me”.
Sarah’s “behavior” right now is vulnerable and scared. She’s looking away, her eyes are furrowed, her arms are crossed. That… that isn’t a sexy look. Hell, that’s not even a sexy submissive look for dominant types. And that Joe interprets signals that are signs of fear and discomfort as “hella hot, should pursue” is a giant ass red flag for me.
And it’s a common problem for Joe, especially so, because he’s wrapped up in a toxic culture that makes “pick-up” a game, so the more disinterested and miserable looking the woman, the more “points” in pressing through and “winning” an encounter by any means necessary.
And it’s terrifying because… well, my trauma response is freezing. I’ve learned that the hard way. And so yeah, I worry a lot about someone without the confidence of Joyce or Sarah targeted by him interpreting someone’s vulnerability and discomfort as a signal for “come at me big boy”. Cause a lot of women are going to go for a soft no over a hard no because they’ve been socially trained to never deliver a hard no, especially in public, and because a lot of women know men can get violent and vengeful over a no they decide feels “too (slur for assertive woman)y.”
And well, Joe’s whole style is forcing women to have to scream at him to get him to stop and even then it makes you the direct focus of crass sexual harassment. Like, fuck, we don’t see him making constant crude jokes at Roz in the same way he does with Joyce and Sarah, the two women who we’ve seen have rejected him.
There’s a cost to saying no to him and part of it is you become part of a public performance of Joe the good at consent man, respecting your boundaries and demanding you recognize it ever after.
Does this mean that Joe is unsalvageable? Hell no. Lots of men escape the toxic messages of those sorts of cultures and we’ve seen some growth with Joyce and in his initial silence here. These are positive signs and there’s hope that he can continue to grow and improve.
But I’m going to continue to be offput by these sorts of red flags, especially coming from a unique background of being a queerromantic asexual who is involved in BDSM and thus prime fodder for creepers like Joe who see folks like me as a “challenge” and like interpreting my negative body signals as signals to try and push against my boundaries without consent.
Cause right now, he’s just reminding me of the missing stairs that folks try and warn the newbies about because they are too well-connected to cannon-toss entirely.
Ohhhh shit, I had completely missed the part about exactly what behavior was doing it for Joe. That’s…really fucking horrific, augh. I was approaching it from the angle of “ugh irritating creeper who won’t respect anyone’s boundaries,” but that specific detail just takes it to predator level.
I will be very, very glad when this stage of his development is over.
Thankfully, my group has managed to toss out (as far as I know; I haven’t been active for about a year now) all our missing stairs–we’re a smaller bunch of mostly neuroatypical queer people of various stripes, so it’s a bit like family. The last one got tossed after another girl and I expressed how fucking creepy he was, thankfully. But don’t get me started on him, I’ll TMI all over the place.
It’s occurred to me that Joe is so personally objectionable to me in part because we’re of a similar cut, sexually free in both word and deed. The difference is I try to make sure my audience is cool with it before I start discussing my sex swing, and if I cross that line with someone who doesn’t want to hear about it, I immediately back off and apologize. Which he should too! And it frustrates me that he doesn’t! And that, in fact, he uses such a thing as a tool to turn a hard no into a yes! What the actual fuck, Joe!
Thank you ♥ Definitely glad to be past that dude, and I’m kind of glad he went for me instead of some other girl who was less equipped to deal with him.
Nah, I feel largely the same. Like, there’s a difference between “oh, you have a fantasy about a sex swing, well I happen to have one, if you happen to be interested” and “I know you said no, but what if I said I had X sexual toy, does that change your mind, ya know, your negative body language trying to squirm away from me is really doing it for me. Super hot.”
And the fact that I’ve met people in real life who didn’t understand that difference makes me less likely to tolerate it from Joe the cartoon character.
Exactly! Auuugh, ick. And it bothers me how that uncomfortable reaction is even fetishized in the mainstream to a degree–especially in things like anime.
Aieee, I thought Joe meant that he was attracted to Sarah’s bluntness or something.
But nope, he meant that he likes ’em creeped out and uncomfortable. Nope nope nope, that’s not something you tell people who are creeped out and uncomfortable right now.
That’s normal for me. I don’t really do eye contact and I usually don’t look at people I’m talking to. I can pay attention to words or I can watch faces and body language, but I can’t process both all that at the same time, so I tend to focus on words. That carries over to how I read comics, apparently. So I was reading Sarah as being… not exactly misanthropic, but asocial and hermitish and curmudgeony and snarky about it.
I thought those personality quirks were what was turning Joe on.
…. definitely, definitely not.
I was halfway thinking, maybe Sarah was liking that Joe was saying what he was saying, not because she wants or appreciates or even tolerates the sexual commentary, but because it’s someone contradicting Joyce’s view of how Sarah should behave. It wouldn’t be defensible, but I thought maybe it might be in “no harm this time” territory.
But you’re right. Body language, moments of hesitation, eye direction, self-minimizing. Sarah’s taking a road trip through Awkwardsas, and this is NOT THE TIME JOE. Not that it ever is the time after she’s said no, but this is DOUBLE TRIPLE QUADRUPLE NOT THE TIME JOE. Damn, I suck at reading social cues.
And to those who are like, well, what has Joe done that’s really that off. Me and my mates do that shit all the time, I’d like to just submit this as my go-to response to all that as me and Emperor talked for an hour on the podcast on this subject and it ended with us both feeling like we needed a shower:
And if I may be so bold, my personal favourite part from that podcast is when I talk about how Joe’s view of consent and sexuality (especially male sexuality) is so skewed, he even harms his own right to informed consent with it.
I’m pretty much on the same page as Cerberus. I was all for Joyce helping Sarah out and making her feel comfortable but…obviously we’re getting away from that. It’s like these people have never met an introvert. It’s why I’ve been uncomfortable when people get annoyed with Sarah before like, you can be annoyed with how she treats Jacob and how she sees him, that’s valid. But not liking how she’s antisocial makes me uncomfortable. Sarah is a cynical person, yes. But she’s a PERSON and you don’t force someone to interact like that. What she said in panel two is rude, as is the way of Sarah, but Joyce’s response is also rude. And likely to make Jacob awkward. Like instead of communicating as friends these two have taken a seat at Joe and Jacob’s table and Joyce sort of made it all about man-catching. As a taken man who wants to save sex for a special occasion, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Jacob excuses himself.
And what’s more… Joyce is basically forcing Sarah to get worse again. Sarah was making progress with Jacob in her own way just yesterday (comic time)! Now Joyce put her in a situation she wasn’t prepared for and cannot get out of, and -of course- Old Sarah will come back out again in such a situation. Nobody (at least that I know of) gets magically better with just one big epiphany, it requires patience and time and continuously working at it to make a lasting change.
And perhaps more importantly, Joyce right now isn’t really caring about Sarah, she’s caring about her own idealised notion of “two people just meant to be together!” She may live in the real world, but her head is still inside a Disney movie (assuming there were any Disney movies on the “approved” list when she grew up).
So yeah, I’d be pretty pissed off if that happened to me. And I’d be rude about too. Ruder than Sarah, who’s actually showing some remarkable restraint here.
To everyone who opined that Joyce would make an excellent RA… I submit the opinion that this storyline shows that she would not.
Exactly! Sarah’s been making good strides on her own, sitting at the front of the classroom and talking with Jacob. Joyce helps in smaller doses, such as meeting to have lunch with Sarah. That was thoughtful for her and definitely communicated to Jacob that as standoffish as Sarah is, she does have people who care enough about her to want to eat with her. This sort of reminds me of how things were with Raidah and friends before Dana went home. Compared to Joyce right here, their efforts to include Sarah by extending an invitation and showing her a good time was very sweet. They didn’t corner her into interactions or joining in a conversation (from what we see at least) and that’s why after that shitstorm happened for Sarah, with the group of people she was getting comfortable with turning into a pariah, she IS so standoffish. If that shit happened to me because I was trying to help my roommate, I’d hate people do! I mean I sorta do now but that’s a different story altogether.
Joyce started this with good intentions, but she needs to take it down a few notches. She shouldn’t see this as matchmaking or putting them together to get married. The goal should be at least helping them be friends, because honestly Jacob could be a nice friend for Sarah so long as Raidah doesn’t give him anymore one-sided stories about her. IF, and this is a big if but IF anything more develops between Sarah and Jacob, that’s between them.
Roman Jones has an excellent comic on how to socially support an introverted person and why actions like Joyce’s towards Sarah can feel actively threatening and awful for an introvert like Sarah:
And another good comic, this one by Robot Hugs on how to support an introvert that is withdrawing in a non-pushing manner: http://www.robot-hugs.com/under-2/
Dammit!
Now I have another web-comic to link into!
(And one with no calendar that I can easily find, so I’ll have to find a day and binge… it’s a hard life…)
Sarah reminds me a lot of me. I was like an unholy marriage of Sarah, Joyce and Dina as a kid, with a bit of Danny thrown in. Studious and introverted, sheltered as fuck, socially awkward and autistic as all hell, and prone to a bit of a martyr complex.
I social one on one, mostly. Occasionally in small groups. But small group socialization does not occur in public. It instead occurs at home in a place I’m comfortable with.
Social in a public space, with a person I have a (probably unrequited) attraction for, with someone I actively dislike and surrounded by a bunch of strangers? Nope. Not on for me.
(leaving aside the sensory challenges with crowded casual restaurants like college pizza bars. Those places are LOUD and often chaotic – odds are pretty good I’d be in full sensory overload shutdown* in 30 minutes or less. 10 minutes if I’m having a bad sensory day to begin with).
* I am autistic. A shutdown is a meltdown’s quieter cousin, marked by spacing out, exhaustion, worse-than-usual difficulty with communication, and an inability to keep attention. My experience with meltdowns is that they’re like being so exhausted you forget how to make words happen and everything is very slow like I’m wading through moleasses to get my brain to do anything. Shutdowns themselves are annoying enough – especially if they happen at some sort of important social thing – but the really big problem for me is the post-shutdown “hangover” where I’m tired and cranky and irritable and more likely to meltdown or shutdown for the next week or so afterwards. I can really easily wind up in a feedback loop where shutting down leaves me more vulnerable to more shutdowns/meltdowns which causes more of those to happen and snowballs from there until I need to take a few sick days or use up some vacation time just to get my head balanced again.
Goddamnit Joe. You were doing ok until you got to the “so I won’t”. Unless that was some sort of hamfisted attempt at a self depreciating joke to lighten the mood, in which case you completely failed and made things even worse.
I actually think Joe might be trying to do Sarah a favour here by making things awkward for everyone at the table as opposed to just awkward for her.
He’s completely derailed the topic of “attracting a boyfriend”. He’s drawing the attention away from Sarah and to himself, essentially giving her time to adjust to the situation. Hell, he’s giving Sarah a perfectly understandable and indebatably valid reason for leaving the table if she wants that would not make Jacob wonder what that all was about.
As an introvert, in Sarah’s situation my reaction to Joe would be far closer to “Thank you for opening your mouth” than it would be to “Oh shit what are you saying”. Though there would be a bit of the latter, too.
I also saw it as this. Hes making ab ass of himself to give Sarah a reason to leave without lookibg bad abd also pissing of joyce for being rude and a busybody. Because he knows talkibg about sex toys will uoset her and give sarah ab excuse to yell at him and make everyone feel awkward not just sarah
*reads alt-text* This is probably the first argument that makes me seriously consider looking for someone to have a relationship with. Then again, I would probably have to talk to that person before getting to that point, so… pass.
Maybe all the very introverted people could date each other, they could read books sorta nearby, while giving each other lots of space and not talking much… I guess that’s basically going to a library, though.
This may just be me but I don’t think that this is what Joe was really thinking about. I think that he was using his infamous personal stereotype as an attempt to deflect, distract and, dare I say it punish Joyce. He certainly did the first two but I’m not sure that Joyce has the right mindset that the third is possible using sarcasm or parody.
In Sarah’s defense Jacob is asking her a very invasive question here. Who just casually asks a person what she’s thinking? Fuck off, Jacob mcNoseyPerson
In my experience everyone, but they don’t really expect a proper answer. Once I realised “Nothing, much” was perfectly acceptable, it got a lot easier to deal with.
(It took me longer to realise that than it did with “How are you feeling?” which is even more intrusive if you think you’re expected to actually answer it, and not just say “fine”.)
I think the idea is that people can be intimidated to say what’s on their mind without a prompt.
“What’ve you been thinking about?”
“Oh, you’re interested! I was thinking about abiogenesis mechanisms. Do you suppose a TCA-type cycle might be stable prior to gene-coded enzymes, or…or…um. I mean, nothing, much.”
I had no idea how horrible this would be until it happened. I expected a little awkward around the edges with Joe there, sure, I always do. But this is soooo many clashing viewpoints and personalities in one tiny cubicle like space.
Joe has access to a sex swing, in that there is a swing, and he likes to have sex on it. The location and circumstances of the swing are left as an exercise for the reader.
The whole ‘I won’t do X, but I’m still going to make a remark about Y’ is something I’m far too familiar with. With tourettes and OCD, I’ve inadvertently weirded out a lot of people in my teenage years. The more inappropriate a sentence is in any situation, the more difficult it becomes to shut the hell up about it. That’s not to say that Joe has OCD or that it’d excuse his behaviour in general if he did. But for this particular page, I can’t roll my eyes at him without feeling like a hypocrite.
I can sort of relate to this, except for me it was a thing of genuinely not understanding what’s inappropriate to talk about.
I was the sort of person who’d have a long and in-depth monolog about all the horrible horrible ways in which dioxygen difluoride can fuck your body up over lunch, completely oblivious to the fact that everyone is staring uncomfortably at me and nobody has had appetite for about ten minutes now.
And I wouldn’t do it on purpose… but rather I was like Dina, only with a less-dinnertime-appropriate obsession than dinosaurs.
(dioxygen difluoride is pretty fucking amazing tho – it reacts explosively with glass. Glass is pretty damn close to the most chemically inert substance out there, and F2O2 reacts explosively with it. Just, uh… don’t inhale it. Or get it on you. Or otherwise get exposed to it. It will kill you very very dead. Very dead. And not in a nice way, either.)
Is the chemical structure along the lines of F-O-O-F? Because I can see how that could be super reactive.
(Not actually linear of course, and I didn’t show all the outer shell electrons, but it was the best I could do quickly on a computer without an actual program or anything)
I think everyone who is even remotely interested in this kind of stuff (things that will kill you very very dead through chemistry) should buy Randall Munroe’s “What If…” book. In this book, he answers the question “What if I put up a periodic table of elements with the actual elements in it?”
The answer is… interesting, to say the least. Now find that book!
It started as a regular column on his xkcd website – my favorite was andremains relativistic baseball. Because it’s exactly the kind of thing that chemists find hilarious.
(yes, I was giggling until I cried when I read that one. Chemist and physicist and engineer humor tends to the morbid. I think it’s a side-effect of working with stuff that could kill or horribly maim you every day)
By which I mean: Joe’s still a creepy asshole. At least this time he made something that looked like a ghost of a hint of an effort not to be a creepy asshole. That is a lot more than he would’ve done before.
Doesn’t mean he’s not an asshole.
Also: Joyce needs to learn a hard lesson about boundaries real soon.
I dunno. I mean, this is better than some of his earlier behavior, yes. But I’m wondering how much of that is just that this is a relatively good day, and how much of it is genuine reform.
If getting choked, yelled at, and pushed off a bed hasn’t helped her, I’m not sure what will.
I’m starting to suspect she’s going to overstep something important and get thoroughly, thoroughly chewed up and spat out, a la “Roz yelling at her in Gender Studies class”. Probably not Roz this time. This one has to be from someone she likes – like Becky, Billie, Dorothy, Sarah, Sal, someone like that. Someone she’d be hurt about disappointing.
As soon as she was asking for Joe’s opinion, she should’ve know what might come out there!
But seriously, all those awkward silences – what happened to the basic small talk? Couldn’t you just ask “Well, how was your day? Did classes today bore you too?” (oh all the possibilities….)
Okay, between classes and I have food in me, let’s do this!
Panel One: Aw, geez, look at Sarah here. She looks MISERABLE. She’s got her arms crossed in a way that covers herself up, her eyes are all scrunched up, and she looks intensely awkward and uncomfortable here. I notice she’s looking away from everyone else too. She asked not to come over here, but Joyce did not listen. Even if a boundary isn’t immediately obvious to you, when people tell you ‘No, I don’t want to do this thing’, you stop trying to make them do that thing (barring the usual ‘death or serious harm/illness to self or others’ pause there).
It’s disappointing because Jacob is trying to be nice to her. He’s reaching out and asking what she’s thinking about, trying to involve her in conversation. Considering he knows she’s reclusive, that’s nice of him to try to help her out. Shame the issue is she does not want to be here, but Joyce dragged her over. So, yeah, Sarah’s just like ‘nope, don’t want it, don’t pay attention to me, go bother Joyce or Joe, they like people’. The thing about socializing people who don’t like socializing is it that much like, say, exposure therapy, it has to be on that person’s terms. You can’t just throw them out to people and say ‘figure it out’.
Panel Two: Yeah, that’s cranky, but that’s what happens when you bring people out to socialize against their wills. For god’s sake, Joyce, no means no. So yeah, Sarah’s grumpy. I can’t blame her. I’m grumpy with Joyce now on her behalf.
And yeah, when Sarah doesn’t have any interest in conversing, she’s happy to let the extroverts hog the conversation so she doesn’t have to get involved. It’s a strategy that often works – don’t draw attention to yourself and let other people hog the time until you can make a suitable escape. It’s not a good thing, but you know what, neither is dragging someone into an encounter they didn’t want, so I’m less inclined to be hard on Sarah for it.
Panel Three: Joyce, you’re not Susan Patton. It’s not your job to push MRS degrees on everyone else. Knock it off.
That said, this doesn’t shock me. Considering the culture she was raised in, this was probably a very viable tool to get girls ‘behaving’. I can see Carol or Powers or Lundgren or John or Toedad or early Hank using that to get Joyce or Becky back in line. It probably worked too, since they weren’t allowed other ambitions. Womens are for marrying men and having and homeschooling lots and lots of babies because Jesus.
Panel Four: Yeah, I can see Joyce expecting Joe to chime in with some crack about Sarah’s ‘crankiness’. I thought he would too. Or this could be expecting him to be gross or wanting him to back her up. If it’s the last one…..no, Joyce. No.
Panel Five: Joyce, stop. When people say ‘no, I’m good’ that’s your queue to back off. Also, do you really want to hear it? It’s Joe. The over under on it being gross is pretty good.
Panel Six: GODDAMMIT JOE. I admit, I laughed at first and then I thought about it and EW. NO. STOP. Sarah’s told you before she hates you, to fuck off, and she’s not on your menu. Don’t talk about how she’s ‘doing things for you’ when she’s awkward and uncomfortable when she is RIGHT FUCKING THERE. Doubly don’t bring up what specific toys you think she’d want access to. GROSS. This is not the same as a joke with your buds – Sarah and Joe can be friendly, but they’re not friends (and definitely not close friends). It is also not the same as trying your luck with someone politely. This is some passive ‘Oh, you asked me not to talk about X, here I am not talking about X, but here are some details related to X – hey, why’re you upset? I just said I wouldn’t talk about X!” bullshit that people use to disrespect boundaries in ways they hope won’t get them rightfully told off. It’s obnoxious. And thank you Joyce for telling him to shut up, though it’d be nice if you didn’t push him to talking. And I don’t think this is just him teasing Joyce. That doesn’t look like his usual teasing face.
Now that that’s all done, I have to wonder – I know some religious and cultural communities still practice matchmaking (usually in the form of ‘oh, you’re looking? I know someone who’s looking! Can I set you up and see if you like each other?’, but sometimes in the form of more traditional matches). Is that a thing for evangelicals or nah? Think it’s something Joyce’s community could be into? Or is this just a pastime for the busy body church ladies Joyce would’ve looked up to growing up?
Panel 1: And this is one of the big reasons I like looking at consent models that go beyond the sexual. Cause even non-sexual stuff like socialization can have negative effects if it is forced over one’s desires and wants. And for Sarah, she’s asocial to antisocial. She has very limited brackets in which she can do social activity and this is as you note, immersion therapy without the consent, which is just traumatizing someone in the name of doing them a good turn.
Panel 3: Ooh, I want to imagine now that the reason Becky got a reputation for being “worse socialized” than Joyce is that Becky kept feeling drawn to the behaviors that made one “less husband worthy” because of how traumatic that thought was.
Panel 5: Yup, Joyce’s consent practices today have been frickin’ awful.
Panel 6: Yeah, it’s just… yeah, I’ve ranted about this. But it’s also frustrating, because there’s always that guy in any “sex-positive” space who is just… this. Just constantly turning the conversation to his boner feels and his own fetishes and low-key pressuring regardless of whether it is appropriate, wanted, or been told off by people around them.
And frequently they’re also frequently the ones I hear about being banned several months later from a space for assaulting or harassing the other people in really not okay ways. Or the ones who make creepy jokes about “recruiting” gay and ace identified women into “liking dick again”.
Final thought response: Yes, there is a matchmaking culture, though not as formalized as it is in other cultures. But yeah, the older church ladies will “encourage” certain couples and discourage others and there’s a general pressure to date inside youth groups to “a good Christian man” and in some sects, the man is actually chosen by the parents and presented to the woman when she’s a younger girl.
Overall though, the rules in the communities I was adjacent to was that you were encouraged to “same youth group”, required to “same sect”, required to “same race”, and heartily encouraged to pursue whichever kids who did the best job of seeming obedient and pious during Sunday School, and outright banned to whoever had earned the full displeasure of the Church by say leaving or becoming atheist or having gotten pregnant or otherwise revealed to be an “irredeemable sinner”. Things like drug addictions, histories of abuse, assault allegations, and so on were of course immediately discounted as “the Lord forgives all us sinners”, though may get you bumped to second-string, mostly if the drugs abused were ones that are seen as “non-white person drugs”.
Yeah, I’ve been the Sarah there where I regretted getting talked into social interactions and then hung out in my room to hide forever and recharge. Bleh. Nothing gets the ‘ew people’ instincts going than being forced to talk to them against my will.
My head canon is the adults were regularly shaking their heads at Becky for climbing trees or something because that’s not what good girls who get husbands do. They watch (parent approved!) tv or read good, parent approved books, or like to cook or help around the house and why can’t she be more like Joyce, playing homeschool teacher or house, isn’t that sweet?
They really are. I’m sensing a storm coming over her abysmal sense of boundaries.
Ah yes, and when you tell them to stop you’re ‘sex shaming’ or ‘kink shaming’. As though real life is an internet forum where you can avoid the threads talking about squicky stuff. No, you stop advancing on people who’ve told you to fuck off.
Ahh, I see! I’ve read testimonials from girls who were in South Asian, Jewish, or Romani communities before – most of the time it sounded more like organized blind dating than any actual pressure to find and marry them right now with no say in the matter, though I have heard one or two more like that Evangelical situation you described. And I’m guessing men actually means grown ass men getting set up with pubescent (or god forbid, pre-pubescent) children? UGH.
Yeah, worst instance I saw was with a freshman girl when I was in HS who had to stop dating, because she was now “of age” to “meet her future husband”. So, this little 14 year old was being shopped around to grown-ass men in their 20s and 30s who would be her “future groom” after she reached 18 (she belonged to one of the more… yeah, mormon sects).
It was creepy as fuck. Worst part was her explaining it all as if this was just a normal part of growing up.
Yikes! That is disgusting. I hope she ended up okay. That is incredibly creepy and sounds like child grooming. You’d think the school would have had something to – never mind. Fundieville. Right.
The communities I’d read testimonials from that were….less creepy generally, from what I understood, operated under ‘You can’t drag someone to a matchmaker to be married against their will, they come because they want to start dating seriously for marriage reasons, the matchmaker keeps track of who’s come to them and sets them up. Ideally, they like each other and take it from there. If not, they can find someone else or ask the matchmaker to try someone else.”
Once I let slip I was atheist in my HS, there were kids who were legit not allowed to talk to me. At all.
There were other kids who’d follow me around telling me I’d go to hell and would burn forever with the other sinners. Some left notes in my locker. Some would jump me at my locker.
It wasn’t just cuz I was atheist (I was also, rightly, read as queer and yeah the autism tendency to monolog and not eye contact and difficulty with social stuff in general certainly helped to paint the proverbial target on my back too), but once the atheism cat slipped the bag, there was a huge uptick in bullying and a huge downtick in teacher interest in making even a token effort to discourage it.
One day a girl followed me around all fucking day screaming abuse at me (for Jeebus, of course), and teachers were all like, “*shrug* Religious freedom, what canya do?”
Which is not as bad as what happened to the only kid to come out as gay in the school – the day after, he was hospitalized for three months because of a beating. Two days after he returned, he was beaten badly enough to land in ICU, and then he switched schools. Couple years later, there was a girl who let slip she was questioning to a friend, and within the week she’d been threatened with corrective rape by a good half-dozen of the boys. There was also at least one girl I know of who came out as lesbian to her folks and they sent her to one of those brainwash camps where a corrective rape happened. Another woman in the area has a trans daughter and is supportive of it, and she lost literally all of her friends as a result – she is totally isolated there, because everyone thinks it would’ve been better for her to have a dead son than a live trans daughter (I know this because I’ve been told as much by them in so many words).
There’s a reason I reflexively default to “stay in closet” in meatspace until I know I can trust someone and the fact that I survived 10 years there entirely by keeping my head down and never letting anyone confirm their suspicions is it. Old habits die hard, and old survival mechanisms die harder.
FUCK, just realized how a sentence will be read and it’s my biggest pronoun fuckup in a long time.
By “supportive of it” in that other sentence, I was not referring to the trans daughter, but rather to trans issues in general. My bad. Very, very sorry. 🙁
Not an excuse but: The above is a good example of autistic difficulty with language and pronouns – I have a hard time keeping track of what pronoun will be read as referring to what, and to keep track of implications as a result of sentence & language structure. Still, I should’ve re-read again more carefully, and I’m sorry.
NOW THAT I HAVE SEEN THE JOE/SARAH OTP IN MY HEAD, I CANNOT UNSEE IT!!
They’re a perfect match! Sarah is depressed and craving the nookie. Joe provides nookie, and prides himself on nookie skills. Nookie provides endorphins. Even Joe can match Sarah’s ridiculously low expectations for her live. I can see this going well.
Joyce, you remember that super-uncomfortable moment in class when you had an epiphany about the church and GLBT people? You’re careening toward another one of those on a related topic.
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Joe, are you a swinger
wait what am I saying of course you are
…Joyce, don’t tell Joe to shove it in
Yeah, Joyce– Joe doesn’t exactly need your encouragement on such matters
Joe should know better than that.
He should, but that doesn’t mean that he does
Out with it, Joe! In with it, Joe! Out with it! In with it!
#outwithitinwithitharder
“A little of the old in-out, in-out”
Now I’m imagining Joe/Joyce on the swing having a ball.
joe’s a real SWINGER
eh
eg
Fucking hell, beaten to the punch AND a typo.
You have brought shame and dishonor to posteriorkind.
you must commit honorable sudoku
Are you perhaps referring to Sue Aside?*
*more like sue ASSide amirite**
**no i am not
your shame rears
I think Sue Asside would be a more succinct summary, if you’re trying to coin a phrase for posteriority.
What would that entail for a butt…? A sword in the..? Or you know… a sword, if you know what I mean?
A mere sword? Nay, something much mightier! Though if they’re doing it without an eraser, that’s pretty impressive.
I bet they feel like butts now, eh.
boooooo
A new plateau in adulthood for Joyce: telling someone to shove it.
She will advance to telling them to fold it first at some later date?
Joyce (raising finger): Swivel on it.
Joe: Wrong finger.
Joyce: I’m working up to that.
Maybe she’ll work up to “sit on it” someday.
Joyce! Phrasing! 😉
I’m sure Maggie’s thrilled to hear that.
the other half was boobies
…aww.
You romantic, you.
One part good listener and wishing for the partner to express themselves. Other part invested in her feminine charm and qualities.
These are virtues!
Qualities, or assets. There’s nothing virtuous about them…
doesn’t cootch count for anything =<
…. again, Willis, allow me to express my admiration for the way that your manic, two-thumbs-up avatar accentuates any comment you make, NO MATTER WHAT THAT COMMENT MIGHT BE.
No, seriously, there’s not a single comment you could make that your avatar’s expression would not go well with.
“[Someone I care deeply about] died last night, Reltzik.”
Coupled with the manic face and two thumbs up? Turns it from a painfully awkward post to a painfully ironic post, which isn’t AS awful.
“I’m quitting making comic strips and it’s your fault, Reltzik.”
OK, that will still look somewhat fitting. Not sure you’ll be as happy once the rest of us find out where you live and send you glitter bombs for the rest of your life, though.
Two phrases you do not want together.
“Glitter Bomb” and “Orbital Insertion”
Joe comment: 100 mile high club? That beats the swing.
I might not be happy, but the manic face and two-thumbs-up will help a lot of people think he’s being facetious about it being all my fault, which would take some of the heat off. IT STILL WORKS.
Also, I’m pretty sure mailing me glitter bombs is a felony.
Shiney.
Is the other half because she has your same strange love for taco bell?
what do people have against taco bell? taco bell has the grilled stuft burrito!
1) I like tacos, which makes me suspicious of those things at Taco Bell
2) I haven’t been back since I saw them pour the meat out of a bag
3) Taco Bell was the only survivor of the Franchise Wars.
I have a suggestion for a mental exercise to deal with your point 2:
1. Take ground beef and whatever seasonings you want, and make taco meat in a pan according to whatever recipe you prefer to follow.
2. Ensure it is at a temperature that will not melt plastic.
3. Pour it into a bag.
For a good taco, the consistency is wrong.
I didn’t say that what Taco Bell has is good taco meat, but I wouldn’t blame the packaging. And it had the same consistency before you saw the bag.
Loving Taco Bell isn’t strange, it’s just common sense.
You can still have strange love for Taco Bell. Like, if you dream about nuclear war annihilating everything except for you and a bunker full of Taco Bell outlets.
I dream of the day when all restaurants are Taco Bell, and bathrooms have 3 shells instead of toilet paper!
I don’t. We lose hamburgers and junk food. On the other hand, we get VR cybersex. Then again we live in a benign but corrupt semi-police state.
won’t be benign (or semi-) pretty soon
We already have VR cybersex.
It’s going to be a very long time before something beats out “teledildonics” as my favorite word
“shove it right back in”
Mixed signals, Joyce.
shove it in so hard
~+~phrasing~+~
She’s shoving it right into the danger zone!
phrasers on stun!
……………
*DEEP sigh*
We were so close. SO close. We almost had some character growth there. And then that last speech bubble. What the actual fuck, dude. Not fucking okay.
Idk, maybe my friend groups just have much lower levels of TMI than most, but I wouldn’t classify this as “not okay”. I mean, Joe is still Joe and he does plenty of things that gross me out (the most obvious and consistent of which is the whole attractiveness rating thing he does, totally not okay) but generally being open about his sexualized isn’t something that bothers me. Here he’s very clearly respecting Sarah’s boundaries, and is mostly just teasing Joyce–after she essentially demanded he say what was on his mind.
The difference is that’s your friend group, the members of which presumably like each other and are familiar with each others’ boundaries. Sarah and Joe are not friends, and in fact, she’s told him to fuck right off in no uncertain terms. Continuing to aim innuendo at her, even by way of Joyce, screams disrespect of boundaries. Doesn’t matter if he prefaces it with “I won’t even mention” bullshit.
And it’s a good point because it’s an ignoring of boundaries he’s done a lot. Like, he’s ignored boundaries and continued to press with innuendo after a turn-down in this kind of “I’m joking, but I’m actually a little miffed I didn’t get in there, so seriously, do I have a chance, naw, I’m kidding, I respect your boundaries, tell the woman on the phone I respect your boundaries” shtick with Joyce a bunch of times and with Sarah right after she had to scream in his face to get him to leave her the fuck alone.
Like, right now, Joe’s understanding of consent is almost at “no means no” level, which… sadly, for a teenage boy might seem high to him, but in reality, is actually a pretty low bar he’s not even successfully clearing and nowhere near an actual good policy on consent.
Yuuuuuup. “Haha I’m joking…unless you’re into it” is not the step up we were seeking here. Unfortunately in keeping with my memories of 18 year old boys though.
It’s really annoying.
“I don’t date or play with men.”
“Ha ha, well, I wasn’t hitting on you anyways, but seriously if you wanted to, I know X, Y, and Z and…”
“I don’t date or play with men.”
“Come off it (slur), I wasn’t saying anything like that, just that (goes on for another half hour).”
Like, if he’d stopped with the first speech bubble in that panel, that’d be fine. I’d be thrilled. “Sarah’s already rebuffed my advances, so I won’t mention what’s on my mind.”
Granted, it’d still be low-key eyerolly, but it would show definite character growth.
He tried to stay respectful. Joyce TOLD him to talk and then TOLD him to shut up. Clearly the one lacking character growth her is Joyce.
Yeah, Joyce is being a jerk too. I’m not going to disagree with that.
But Joyce being a jerk does NOT mean he gets to sexually harass either Joyce, or Sarah by talking at Joyce about her.
Oh yeah, Joyce is being a major jerk here. And in my opinion is managing to be worse than Joe on consent at least in this instance, but Joe is a human with free will and there’s a lot of ways to avoid being a gross creeper even when needled.
Even with the first speech bubble, he’s doing the same thing – emphasizing he’s still interested and then how emphasizing how good he is at taking rebuffs.
Joyce is the one who wouldn’t leave it well enough alone.
That doesn’t fucking justify sexual harassment.
I think youre being a little sensitive and projecting a bit. No one at the table is exactly hidden with their sexuality (heck even joyce makes her feelings known about it, though her opinion differs from everyone elses) and joe’s comment will probably be taken with a “ew dude” from everyone else. Even Joyce is just telling him to shut up
Go back and reference Sarah and Joe’s past interactions.
No.
As you wish, but context would help quite a bit with this one.
The ones where they bond over their shared anjoyment of making Joyce uncomfortable you mean?
Sarah and Joe context:
Sarah tries to beg Joe not to break her for his machismo pride, Joe gets heavily defensive, makes one of the most terrifying acephobic statements in the comic to date, casually promotes a form of corrective sexual… (and the dot dot dot has a lot of menace at least for me being ace and being on the receiving end of folks who think I need a “dot dot dot” to be “fixed”), and then interprets Sarah’s disdain for him as an invitation to hit on her later, ignoring everything she’s said:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/penis/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/children/
Joe watches Sarah threaten bodily harm on his creeper father and saw her actively negative body language to creeper shit, decides to still try later to do the same damn thing:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/persistent/
Joe ignores clear negative body language (soft noes), creeps in an intrusive obvious way, ignores Sarah actively warning her friends not to get near him, and having to literally scream at him to get him to back off and even then, he still tries one last time to hit on her and blame her for overreacting at him even though he ignored all attempts to politely rebuff him without screaming in his face:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/sitnext/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/chaps/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/harness/
The person you are thinking of who bonds with Sarah over stories about Joyce’s oddness is Jacob, not Joe. Joe and Sarah have had next to no positive interactions.
This:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/children/
Oooooh, my bad. I thought we were talking about applying context, not ignoring it. Sarah isn’t even talking about Joe there.
Slightly later: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/cussed/
And
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/damnation/
But… that has nothing to do with the context of this discussion. That wasn’t about Sarah and Joe, they were talking about Joe’s date with Joyce.
The context of this discussion, for those that haven’t being keeping up.
Point one: Joe and Sarah are not friends. Not true, they have established common ground, enjoyed each other’s company and share time together.
Point two: Joe is harassing Sarah in this strip. Also not true. Joe actively objects to Sarah and Joyce coming to the table to do exactly what they complained about him doing in those strips you keep referencing. Not only are they coming on to someone who has clearly stated his intentions lie elsewhere, they are actively expecting Joe to play wingman. Joe says “no” emphatically both via text and by his demeanour.
Jacob is being polite. But, if he allowed to know what was going on, he would probably be a lot more blunt.
Sarah now has four choices.
1. Acknowledge Jacob’s lack of interest and move on.
2. Become embarrassed by Joe’s statement and leave the place she invited herself to. Not likely, shutting Joyce up using inappropriate language is too much fun.
3. Become angry and storm off. Possible, it is a tried and true way to exit an awkward situation.
4. Laugh at Joe teasing Joyce, because that is exactly what is happening. And relax enough to make her latest attempt at breaking up Jacob and his girlfriend in her favour somewhat less awkward.
Whichever way it goes, no one is going to be getting what they want here.
Your point is derailed by a few things:
A) They’ve enjoyed each other’s company occasionally, true, but most of their interactions have Sarah being seriously annoyed by him, she’s said she hated him at least once, and she warned people away from sitting with him.
B) Sarah explicitly told Joyce she DIDN’T want to come up here and sit with Jacob to try to get him to break up with Raidah. She hasn’t bothered with that since she dressed up cute and then quit that after about five seconds.
C) There’s a difference between refusing to be someone’s wingman and making comments about how someone being awkward and uncomfortable is ‘doing all kinds of things for him’ and bringing up sex swings. One is a firm ‘No, I’m not playing this game, leave us alone.’ The other is gross and creepy, especially when Sarah literally screamed at him that she was not on his menu. As Cerb noted downwards, there’s a difference between ‘Hey, you mentioned you’re into swings, I have access to one, care to partake?’ and ‘I know you said you’re never going to be on my menu, so I won’t hit on you even though you’re totally turning me on and I’m just gonna casually bring up my sex swing again’. One is fair game, the other is gross ‘I won’t mention X because you don’t like X, also here are details related to X’ behaviour, where people talk about how they WON’T talk about something to get around someone asking them to stop.
Point One is false.
The entire timeline of their interactions was Joe trying to double hook himself up to Joyce and Danny to Sarah, Sarah trying to call him out on his creeper shit and not break her roommate, to which he didn’t listen to a single word and interpreted her frustration with him as an invitation to romantically pursue her, be cornered by his dad, threaten his dad with bodily harm if he didn’t stop hitting on her, be creepily hit on by Joe in the same way, he ignored clear body language, Sarah had to scream at him to stop, Joe continued to hit on her even after that no doing so in a “nuh uh, I’m so good at consent” sort of bullshit style that blamed her for his lack of reading of body language and verbal warnings to friends that he was dangerous to be near.
Joyce then did her lack of swearing thing and Sarah enjoyed ribbing Joyce about it at the same time as Joe was and Sarah didn’t remove his limbs for it.
Like, that’s not a sign of friendship or established repartee and certainly does not undo the toxicity of all the previous interactions. And then their next interaction after that is this here.
That’s not “enjoying each other’s company”. That’s not “sharing time together”. That’s certainly not friends. Fuck, I’ve backed off on guys I’ve had to tell off and been civil to them after reading them the riot act because women are under social pressure to “play nice” especially after they’ve just had to be a (slur for assertive woman), doesn’t mean we’ve now got an established history of friendship and really doesn’t mean I enjoyed their shitty harassing company.
Like you’re free to think positively of Joe, even to ship Joe and Sarah together and ignore the evidence of the text, headcanons are great, but this sort of idea that one single second of vague civility cancels out that much toxicity and badness is a toxic one that I’ve had a lot of men use on me and friends of mine to justify continuing to stalk or harass them because they “dared put them in the friendzone” or “sent mixed signals”.
Point 2: Joyce is in the wrong here. More so than Joe, yes. She’s interrupting someone else’s time, taking advantage of social customs, pushing Jacob and Sarah to fulfill a ship neither is interested in actually pursuing at the moment, and doing so in a way that is disrespectful to both Sarah’s stated desire to not be here and Jacob’s established relationship and his desires as to a friendship with Sarah.
Joyce is fucking up big time.
And Joe has some solid positives. Trying to stay quiet initially was a good instinct and a really good positive moment for him. But his follow-up was a lot of the same ol’ crap. Was he pushed into it by a Joyce who refused to take a polite refusal? Hell yeah.
But he’s also an adult with free will and there’s ways to answer “I want to make a crass joke, but she’s already told me off, so I’m not interested” that aren’t “she told me off, also her vulnerability and fear is turning me on, oh yeah, and I have a sex swing if she happens to be interested in that, let me propose that really quick to her and see if she takes me up on that”.
And yes, Jacob is being hella polite. He’s a really good egg and shouldn’t be having his kindness taken advantage of like this by Joyce.
Sarah’s choices. Yeah, she can leave, she can stay. What is most likely because social customs have a rhythm and they’ve already ordered is likely that she’ll continue to try and ignore both Joe and Joyce’s shit and try and ride this out as best she can and interact as little as humanly possible.
BBCC-
And it’s a really insidious type of statement, because it makes objections seem out of proportion. Like, what?!? He said he was respecting your consent and wasn’t going to do the thing you complained about, and yet you still yelled at him. What a humorless feminist, always getting upset about everything.
Hell, it’s very related to his little game when someone finally screams their no at him of play-acting like it’s out of proportion and he would have totally taken the hints that he spent the last few minutes ignoring.
It plays on social niceties and pressures in a bad way and makes it more costly to object to objectionable behavior.
Joyce, honestly, is playing the same type of scummy game, framing her own selfish desire to fulfill her ship as some sort of kindness she’s doing to Sarah so Sarah doesn’t feel she has a reasonable claim to object, because Joyce is trying to be so “nice” to her here.
And both are doing so because of toxic messages and cultures they’ve drowned themselves in that normalize this type of behavior.
There is a lot being ignored here.
Sarah was not just civil to Joe.
Sarah does not hate Joe.
Joe is not the one being the aggressor here.
Sarah and Joyce are working together, in exactly the way Joe described.
This is not being done over Sarah’s objections.
Sarah is not a passive participant.
A) Sarah has said she hates him already. The fact she’s willing to be friendly towards him sometimes does not make them friends.
B) Sarah told Joyce she did not want to come over here and has not said anything to or about Jacob, and she’s flat out contradicted Joyce trying to sell her as a ‘kind and thoughtful person’. That this farce is continuing is all on Joyce. There is no ‘working together’ in Joyce trying to foist Sarah on Jacob.
C) Even if Sarah WERE working with Joyce on this and she and Joe WERE friends, it would not give Joe the right to talk about how hot she makes him and how he has a sex swing if she were interested as though she wasn’t there after she’s told him she’s not on his menu and to stop doing that.
Sarah has said a lot of things, yet, there she is being all inappropriate.
A list of things Sarah has said since they got here
– That she didn’t want to sit with Jacob and Joe.
– That it was not her idea to do so.
– That she is not a kind and thoughtful person, in direct response to Joyce trying to sell Jacob on her.
– Placed her pizza order
– And today, where she said she doesn’t want to talk to other people and that she wanted the presence of others to distract from her. In response to Jacob engaging with her.
Sarah’s being an antisocial asshole again, but she was not involved in busting in on their guy time, and she is not trying to set herself up with Jacob. Actually, she seems to be doing her best to harpoon that by contradicting Joyce and saying he shouldn’t talk to her and to talk to the others. And, y’know, not even looking at him, so you can’t even argue she’s ogling.
@ Skizz and Podia – Sarah is expressing that she does not like Joe in that strip, though and she told him to fuck off, which should have been his point to not approach her again for sex, which he did later. Even if the reason she doesn’t like him has nothing to do with him hitting on her, that should equal a ‘back off’. And, again, bad consent practices – he sees Sarah’s anger and just goes ‘eh, she’d be good in bed’, not listening to a word she said.
There is some character growth here. It shows that Joe commits to some level of restraint when the other party rebuffs his advances. That’s streets ahead of your typical in-it-for-the-sex type character.
I don’t see Joe as actually still hitting on Sarah with the mention of the sex swing, except as an accidental microaggression sort of thing. He’s only continuing to annoy Joyce.
Joe is teasing _Joyce_ with that last speech bubble: it’s got nothing to do with Sarah.
He is and he isn’t. I don’t think he’s seriously expecting to get anywhere, but he doesn’t really have another mode for public conversations with girls. (Or really with boys either – there he talks about the girls.)
And seriously “Sarah’s behavior is doing all sorts of things for me”? I don’t know if it’s hitting on her, but if it’s not aimed at her, she’s certainly taking collateral damage.
Is there this kind of reaction when Mike tricks her into looking shit up on the internet?
“Shov(ing) it right back in” sounds exactly like something Joe would like to do…
Wow. It’s like Willis could predict there’d be DAYS AND DAYS of peple fucking arguing about Joe.
I wonder how Joe would respond to people arguing about him.
He’d rate us on a gross scale, and assume we each want him to sex us up.
Kinda like how he responds to people who aren’t arguing about him.
*plays Dire Straits’ “Sultans of Swing” on the hacked Muzak* (Look for the version with the lead guitar track isolated–if you dare!)
Or I’ll Just Find It For YOU.
*Attempts to play, fails, does a Pete Townshend impression instead*
Where do you find multi-track recordings like this? (Besides the obvious shady sources.) Rock Band and Guitar Hero, maybe? This is a wet track, but it’s still much too clean to have been processed from the final mix.
I misread it at first and thought Joyce said “shove it right back into the Sun”, which kind of makes sense but at the same time doesn’t?
Horribly impractical, though. Have you seen the delta-v map of the Solar System? There’s a reason we haven’t ACTUALLY launched anything into the Sun, after all.
It’s as though people don’t get that you can’t just point a rocket at the sun and send it on its way. Anything launched directly at the sun is going to miss. You have to go REALLY fast to hit the sun. Or is it more correct to say you are already going really fast have to slow down a lot?
Since motion is relative you get to CHOOSE! Yes, it is your lucky day.
I like how “back in the sun” implies that it CAME FROM the sun.
With various forms of harmful radiation, there’re plenty of toxic stuff that comes from the sun we’d like to be able to shove back into it.
Who knows what kind of wacky astronomy she got taught by her parents.
And it’s not so hard to launch something into the sun, so long as you’re willing to pay the cost of getting it out of Earth’s gravity well and don’t mind it crashing into the sun or disintegrating so fast that you can’t get useful data back. This has the added benefit of not having to construct a receiver that can pick out a probe’s transmission signal from the single largest source of EM noise for light years in any direction.
But what if you send it at night?
[rim_shot]
…. actually, now that I think about it, all of those problems could be fixed with solar sails and good radiation shielding.
I’m sure Joe would like to shove it in, if the lady’s willing.
Your Joyce avatar makes this comment . . . something.
Where is Joe even keeping the sex swing?
Is that why Danny’s been so quiet lately? He’s seen things nobody should see?
Is their room now a pit of depravity?
They sell ones that are easily taken down and shoved into a closet until they’re needed next.
I know this because of reasons.
Nonsense.
It’s now a cragged shame pit of the lustwolves.
“I’ve… seen things you people wouldn’t believe… crazy sex at the end of a grapple line… Joe’s dad grinning in the dark, and lesbian elbows… all these moments will be lost in the Fuck Zone, behind a paywall… time to Slipshine.”
What’s depressing about this is I think I know who owns the sex swing and that makes this really sad. Cause I’m 90% sure it’s Penny and that relationship is one that is super toxic for Joe and he doesn’t even recognize how bad it is for him because he’s enamored of the fantasy Penny represents of the “hot teacher”.
I’m sure Joe could find a cheap one on Amazon that can attach to his door.
Also Penny and Joe aren’t necessarily toxic, any more than other casual sex relationships with an age difference (aside from one of them being Joe). We haven’t seen them.
Ehhh…any relationship where one party has power over the other, especially with an age difference like that, is Not Good.
I think the main reason it is toxic is because Penny seems likely to be Joe’s teacher in one subject or another.
Now it’s true that I do not know this, I only suspect it. But Penny is happily admitting that she doesn’t give a single fuck about the “don’t fraternize with students” rule. So we know at least that she will gladly have sex with students in her class.
And while there are other ways for her to have found out about Joe (such as him being featured in the student paper over the video scandal), him being in her classroom would be the most probable cause for them to meet.
Hmm, yeah, advocating (and possibly engaging in!) sex with your actual students, that’s not okay.
My impression of the strip(s) in question was that he was almost certainly her student.
I’d say the biggest reason I think he’s her student without it being explicitly stated is because he shows up to have sex with her right after she’s told Jason it’s perfectly fine to have sex with your students as long as you can get away with it. I’d be -really- surprised if that was not a big case of narrative imperative.
Yeah, it seems to be heavily implied.
Oh, yeah, that would make sense; I stand corrected.
I still don’t think this necessarily harms Joe directly, but that’s outweighed by the huge creepiness factor of sleeping with your students. Even though Joe is particularly fine with it, sexing up one’s students is bad news, don’t do that pls.
I’m pretty sure she’s just a TA. Still pretty bad though.
Penny is a teacher. Joe is a student. It’s toxic at best simply because of that fact.
That’s a pretty wide blanket statement taking into account the possibility of mature students, the individuals not going to the same school, etc.
Being a little pedantic, but people can be defined by more than their professions.
I’m a teacher.
Student-teacher relationships are flat across the board vile in my eyes. No matter the excuses. You don’t date a student. Period. Because you should never be in a position where you see your student body as a dating pool, because no. Just no. Not even if it’s “a different classroom technically”. Not even if “they’re mature for their age”. Not even if “they’re practically my age anyways”.
You don’t date your students. And honestly the very thought of it makes me want to vomit.
“You don’t date your students”
But before you said “a”. She’s responsible for not dating her students, sure, but that’s not what you said and not what Nono replied to.
Trying to find the wiggle-room in consent practices is loathsome to me, but I’ll make it specific to Penny. If they are in the same institution, hell no. If they are on the same level of what you’re teaching, hell no.
You don’t date students and acting like what Penny is doing is like some weird edge case like “oh, you were dating already and you’re the same age, but your partner went back to school after you were dating” instead of her predatorily looking for a fresh face 18-year-old in the same institution and probably same class she teaches is not really something that sits right with me.
Respectfully.
Exactly, there are edge cases and you can argue some of them are fine, but Penny’s not anywhere near the line.
“acting like what Penny is doing is like some weird edge case ” – It’s not fair to accuse someone of that for replying to what you said. You are responsible for your words. (And “same institution” is a bit much, and maybe it’s people having an attitude that inevitably implies all the local bars are closed to her that have left her frustrated enough to not care at all.)
In general, there’s a concern that, in a situation where one person has power over another, that power can be used to coerce behavior. Coercing sexual behavior is particularly frowned upon. In specific, just about every relationship has a power imbalance in it, but the combination of a teacher’s age, official position, experience, plus grade power, balanced against the student’s youth, inexperience, and sexual insecurities is considered way too unbalanced to be safe.
That’s the big reason why, yeah, when there’s a power dynamic, consent ends up being compromised a lot, because now there are other factors that can heavily influence a no about an activity or continuing the sex or relationship.
The other reason is preying where you have power is creepily predatory and is like 90,000 red flags on its own. Like, even if you dot all your i’s and cross all your t’s, the fact that you’re dancing that close to a line is suspicious. It’s similar to when someone just “happens” to date people who just turned 18 and is very careful not to sleep with them until their 18th birthday. It’s legal, but it’s a type of practice that gets real suspicious real fast and a sign of some nasty red flags.
Joyce’s ‘done face’ is a gift to the world.
That’s going to be someone’s new avatar, mark my words.
Interesting that 75% of the people at the table have names that begin with j.
Depends how you categorise them, by body mass it is probably closer to 90%
oh he’s gonna, just give him consent and a second to find the condom
Joe: the oversharing years
I’m not sure what you were expecting Joyce.
So…is Joyce now going to have another shock moment from looking something up on Google like when Sarah mentioned a strap-on to her?
It’s got ‘sex’ right there in the name!
However I assume Joyce would imagine like a porch swing, but with thingies.
And if it didn’t exist before, it does now.
Huh… I was about to admit, Joe’s actually being slightly tactful for a moment.
Or perhaps it’s more accurate to say that he is less untactful compared to Joe’s usual low standards, for a moment.
But only for a moment.
See, if he had only done the “Sarah’s behaviour does things for me but she’s already rebuffed my advances” and -stopped right there-, then it would have been a small step forward in being… Well, being less of a Joe. It’s certainly not a big step, what with describing his interest in Sarah in that manner; but at least he’d be acknowledging her disinterest in him.
That, and also that he was not mentioning it at all until he got prodded by Joyce. I’ll give him that much.
And then he takes it all away by -not- stopping there but going into creep mode again and basically try to hit on Sarah by not hitting on her. “Oh, I’m not going to hit on you again. Incidentally, I have access to a sex swing. Nudge nudge, wink wink.” Suuure, we -totally- believe that you’re not trying to convince anyone to join in on that…
Tsk tsk tsk.
Actually, now that I come to think about it, he might actually be sincerely not hitting on Sarah here. Might. It could possibly, just possibly, be his way of trying to get back at Joyce for trying to play matchmaker.
Ehh, still makes him sound rather creepy, though.
My thoughts EXACTLY arrrrrrrrgh
We were SO CLOSE to a breakthrough. It’s so frustrating.
I’d say that this strip has absolutely none of the breakthroughs. NONE! Joe’s lack of breakthrough was the first to really jump out at me, but both Sarah and Joyce are sliding back into their respective bad habits here.
Though I’ll say that at least Sarah’s behaviour is probably the most understandable of the three. She was pressured into this situation and is severely uncomfortable with it. Even people who normally don’t hate people can end up saying things in frustration at that point.
And poor Jacob must be thinking “Man, these three people are all weirdos.”
Yeah, true. :/ I can understand where Sarah’s coming from, and have probably blurted out something similar on the occasion where all my socializing spoons are long since used up and someone insists on pestering me, but Joyce backslid a bit too. I guess with all the growing she’s been doing lately, a regression had to happen soon. Development is all two steps forward, half a step back and whatnot.
Well, gotta keep in mind that it’s only been a couple months since we met them (comic time). You really aren’t going to get a whole lot of cognitive changes in that time. Old habits die hard. And I don’t really feel the hate for Joe. I think he’s often inappropriate, but not in a malicious sense. In my mind, his thought process was: “Sarah said something that makes me want to make a sexual joke. From experience, Sarah doesn’t respond well to those. Joyce told me to speak up, but Joyce doesn’t like that kind of joke. Ok, Joyce is pushing me, time to mess with Joyce a little.” Yes, he talks about sex more than is appropriate, but it seems like he does not more as a norm of interactions that worked with his friends in the past.
I think the things that Joe says would be worse if I thought he said them seriously, but I don’t. I think they are jokes and flirts and messing with people, which takes it from being super creepy and makes it “roll your eyes and throw a pillow at him”
It’s “roll your eyes and throw a pillow at him” if you’re actually friends with him. Flirting, even in a joking manner, with someone who’s told you to back off is creepy. Telling them that them being angry with you over it or uncomfortable in the social setting turns you on is creepy as hell. Way over the boundary line.
Joe’s in an awkward place here, because Joyce is being even more out of line, but he handles it really badly. Badly in a way that reinforces all his other problematic behavior.
Yeah, it’s one small step forward but it’s a lot of leaps at the continued baseline of uber creeper.
It’d be something if he was actually trying to drive Sarah (and Joyce) off now that he knows what Joyce is trying to do. Like, if he just continued to make comments about that and others about his sex life.
Regardless, it’s still incredibly creepy and inappropriate.
It says quite a lot about Joe that him talking about his sexual prowess specifically to drive off Joyce* is the -less- creepy option.
*I personally think that if he’s trying to drive anyone off, it’s Joyce off first rather than Sarah.
Does that make Joyce an enabler, or does that go against the current narrative?
See, because Joyce is telling Joe to shove it back inside himself and there’s sexual context, my mind went to pegging.
I’m still amused by the Joe and Joyce dynamic.
They’re already doing the couple dynamic. She knows he’s thinking something, and knows she will regret it, and still makes him say it. And, she regretted it, and knew it was her own fault, so she couldn’t really blame him.
For some reason I’m rather skeeved out at Joyce’s (unsubtle) “this behaviour is no way to attract a boyfriend”
I’m getting a 19th century lady’s etiquette vibe from it.
“that is no way for a young lady in search of a gentleman caller to behave”
Yep, that’s fundie damage for you. It’s gonna take more than Becky screaming about how she’s a lesbian to undo 18 years of conditioning.
Yeah, the purity norms of that culture and the way that relationships… or rather heterosexual relationships are made the primary goal of every woman are kinda super toxic and archaic.
Both Joyce and Becky have commented on it and Dorothy and Joyce had a big conversation during the mock marriage thing about it as well.
Her repeated insistence that Joe has something to say (hint hint, back me up on this) rings that bell for me–can’t really place why, but something about the phrasing is doing it.
*rings that bell for me too, I should say
Small but important phrasing difference, haha.
It’s very heteronormative and a big cliche about how married couples work. The stuff you see in sitcoms more than real life*.
*Or at least my real life, but then I’m very queer.
Personally I translate this prying as a distraction – to get someone else talking so that Joyce and Sarah aren’t the only ones speaking at the moment.
I went to a fundie college. Some of the cuter popular girls did a spoof on the whole culture where they sang “Going to and I’m trying to get married.” instead of “Going to the chapel and I’m gonna get married.”
Seriously, they call it an MRS degree. A girl goes to college just to snag a smart boy with good morals and maybe get a nice teaching degree so she can help support him while he preaches. But only as a substitute, that way she can dedicate herself to the household as she ought. Yeeeeaaahhh… It was a thing.
* “Going to (our college)”
Forgot HTML works here
I remember in high school they showed us a video where the girls had a song with the actual lyrics ‘You can’t get a man with your brain’.
It was the 50s-60s.
It’s not just fundie culture. Pretty much every major religion — granted, some more so than others — preached modesty, morality, and chastity among the females.
Dammit, that should have been “among the faithful”.
No, I think it’s better the way you said it first.
Accurate. Joyce’s upbringing was very conservative.
TOO LATE, JOYCE, YOU ASKED FOR THIS TRAINWRECK
I guess I’m a bit “meh” on Joe’s…detox? Whatever the hell you wanna call it.
This is normal for him (not right, but normal) so to have him be his normal self around a group of people who have zero interest in him says something.
Joe’s smart enough now to know that nobody at the table wants to play on his swing.
I don’t know, guess it didn’t bother me as much. Don’t get me wrong, Joe’s still Joe, this page just proved that, but in terms of development? It’s still there for sure.
Am I the only person who finds Joe funny? He may be a bit of a horny toad but he has never forced himself upon the unwilling, and i dont see mentioning the sex swing as even an advancement. Hell i even took it as Joe making a joke to tease Joyce. Maybe my friends and i are all pervs but we talk about this kinda stuff all the time.
Exactly. Joe’s a joke. Nobody on campus honestly believes Joe’s got a chance with any girl, especially considering how actively negative he makes himself look.
Sure, it doesn’t justify his ignorance, but it certainly doesn’t prove it harmful. He’s seemingly reached a point of meta with it considering how much he’s been texting Joyce.
Except it’s canon that Joe can and does get at least one woman. Probably more. This has been consistent across two universes.
Joe’s a joke, then he’s an oft repeated sexy one.
Canonically, two. Though it’s interesting that in both cases (Roz & Penny) they were as likely to be the active party in setting it up as he was.
According to Joe’s statements, there have been many more, including at least one threesome. It’s possible he’s lying and projecting a studly image while actually failing horribly with women and has been doing so successfully even to his “best friend” since high school. I don’t think there’s any real support for that theory.
It may be that he’s just physically hot enough and tries often enough that he gets laid regularly, despite having a low success ratio.
As I’ve said before, I’d really like to see Joe in action at some point. See him at a party, see how his game works, especially when he gets soft nos and how of if he tries to push past them.
I’m just gonna paste my response from above at you, and probably everyone else who comes in with the “but my friends talk like this all the time” line.
The difference is that’s your friend group, the members of which presumably like each other and are familiar with each others’ boundaries. Sarah and Joe are not friends, and in fact, she’s told him to fuck right off in no uncertain terms. Continuing to aim innuendo at her, even by way of Joyce, screams disrespect of boundaries. Doesn’t matter if he prefaces it with “I won’t even mention” bullshit.
A very good point. Some of the stuff my friends and I say to each other is pretty horrific, but we know we don’t mean it seriously. We don’t talk like that to strangers or casual acquaintances.
(I do wonder about people overhearing us in restaurants sometimes. We may be “those people”.)
“Maybe my friends and i are all pervs but we talk about this kinda stuff all the time.”
What you and your friends do together is, I suspect strongly, an entirely different thing than what Joe is doing. What friends say to each other as a joke that everybody is in on and comfortable with is one thing.
Joe, on the other hand, is the sort of person who enters a classroom to talk about scissoring, even when the entire room is crying from hearing about the awful treatment of LBGQT people.
That’s genuinely being a self-absorbed asshole to the 13th degree. I hope that at least you and your friends aren’t doing that kind of thing.
Actually, we haven’t seen much from Joe barring him texting Joyce, so it’s possible he cooled it on a lot of his personality.
Not likely because it’s Joe, but still. If he’s learned anything from Joyce it’s that there’s certainly areas even he doesn’t want to cross. Perhaps he’s toned back for the sake of not crossing it.
Let’s have a look at this strip: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/approachable/
* Does not care a single bit for “feelings”: Check
* Only thinks of Danny (supposedly best friend since kindergarten) in terms of how Danny can help him meet chicks: Check
* Thinks of chicks mainly as something to have sex with: Check
And as I mentioned in my own comment above… He’s not really toned down much.
I find him funny but more in the sense that I find a lot of the characters who aren’t outright ‘villains’ like say, Mary or the Toe, but who have behavior that would be seriously harmful irl as more part of the comedic structure. While DoA isn’t a ‘joke a day’ strip, a large number of strips end on a humourous note, so I think I just react to them as more filling a narrative role – ‘here’s the outrageous/over the top humour to wrap up the strip’ – and don’t fully integrate the magnitude of whatever it was with the story.
…well, that was a ramble.
I find him funny, despite recognizing that that last thought should have been kept to himself.
Then again, I’ve never had to put up with the kind of stuff Joe pulls all the time being directed at me. I can definitely see how dealing with real-life Joes (and worse) would drain the humor out of it.
I feel the same way as Fart Captor. He’s amusing if he’s a novelty, but painful if you’ve been surrounded by Joes aiming their behaviours at you.
Yeah, I suspect that’s a major divergence between me and a lot of folks. I’m queer and ace and hang in very “sexually liberal” communities. I get a lot of Joes who like to view me as a “challenge” and get all their egos and senses of self wrapped up in “converting me” or “fixing me” or just trying to be a dick to me because I have no interest in sleeping with them or putting up with their casually sexist bullshit and bad consent practices.
I’m glad you didn’t put up with it, but sorry you have to deal with it at all. I hang out with sexually liberal people who anxiously respect the hell out of my soft Nos — people disrespecting you should not be considered normal/okay.
Most people are cool, but there’s a reason I stopped hanging out anywhere near the straight-dominated spaces.
That makes sense, and sucks.
Non-straight spaces are the best!
As someone who’s the only straight person in my clique, I concur. It’s why I work at one. That, plus it’s where all my (still living) friends hang out.
Sorry if this is weird or too off-topic, but, how does a new person learn the strategies for finding these awesome spaces?
Not unrelated: how do grown-ups make friends?
In my experience:
For kink spaces, Fetlife is your friend, but be careful, look for queer-specific groups and scout out the community before playing with folks.
Some larger cities might also have queer bookstores/coffee shops/community centers that also tend to have a lot of fliers for groups and local events where you can meet folks.
Groups can also be a great way to meet some early friends who share similar traits.
More importantly, local centers are often full of fliers for various events, including ones where you’ll already have one thing you’ll likely have in common.
For nerdy type folks, Renn Faires are good for meeting other geeks who like to dress up and there are guilds in them that are more social and involve more direct hanging out. Similarly, many game stores will have nights where gaming groups meet so you can meet folks that share hobbies and can even join someone’s D&D or other tabletop group which is good for chilled nerdy hangout spaces.
Similarly, don’t discount internet spaces. I’ve had some of my strongest friendships and the ones that most helped me in critical times form online in forums or blogs or comics I’ve read and social media apps like tumblr, twitter, and facebook tend to have great mini-communities focused on all sorts of specific interests and can even have spaces for organizing things more locally with folks that share interests and not all of them are toxic. It’s not meatspace, but it’s definitely not nothing.
And finally there’s things like cons if you can afford them. Great for meeting other folks who are comic, furry, anime, etc… nerds in a local hangout space.
Overall, for those with social anxiety, the trick is not to overthink things. Be yourself, but be aware of other people’s boundaries and consent and don’t take things personally if things don’t quite hit off with a person.
Additionally, there’s also clubs, writing groups, art collectives, etc… in most cities that make it easy to get connected and the organization and structured meeting times can help if you have social anxiety and find it easy for your brain to make excuses not to hang with folks or suck about making plans with folks.
Good luck. You will find your people.
If I can find movies with rampant lethal sociopathic violence played for comedy funny, then I can find this funny in the same way.
Initial introduction Joe being only interested in who he can have sex with bothered me, however the more he and Joyce interact the more I like him as a character.
Which is…basically what happend with It’s Walky! as well.
Yeah, I just hope that here he winds up having to confront his toxic behavior rather than just (mostly) developing out of it without ever having to admit how problematic it was, like the IW! version did.
Oh goddammit Joe. I have class in the morning, but I’ll have words for you later.
There’s a part of me that really dislikes how pushy Joyce is being about trying to hook Sarah up with Jacob when Sarah clearly seems to be uncomfortable with it. I know Joyce is trying to help her friend, but I really wish she’d notice this is not working and take a step back.
Yeah, Joyce is actually creeping me out more than Joe. Unexpected, but there you go.
Joyce’s actions are hella creepy. I mean, yeah, Joe is being creepy too. But Joyce is hitting a level of creepy where even Joe recognizes it as off-color and bad.
Joe should definitely quit before he digs himself into too big of a hole, but Joyce’s actions rub me in all the wrong ways. Not only is she being really pushy with her friend who is very clearly not comfortable with this situation, but is trying to push her into a relationship with someone who is already in one and by all means seems to be happy in said relationship. That’s just awful.
Not to mention Sarah obviously has issues socializing with others, which I suspect might be due to some level of anxiety. However, I fully admit that might be me reading too much into a situation due to me suffering from a similar issue and knowing how it feels to have friends doing similar things that Joyce is attempting to do here.
The thing is that Joe’s acknowledging a rejection and accepting it. He might be too upfront with the exact nature, but “rejection noted” and no longer pressing.
Joyce… isn’t. And, sure it comes from a well-intended place, but that almost makes it worse, because you have all the more effort to make to tell her “no”.
Exactly, Joe heard the no and he’s taking as a no, sure he’s very (too very) open about the fact that he’s attracted to, but it’s a statement not a request and there’s no expectation behind it.
Joyce on the other hand (thinks she) knows better then you what what you want, and she’s going to make sure she gives it to you, no-matter how many times you say no or ask her to stop.
Joe is much better at consent then Joyce, he’s just more openly sexual and so the fact that he’s not super great at consent is more obvious.
Sorry, meant to put ‘he’s attracted to Sarah‘
No longer pressing, but mentioned again, even before the sex swing bit. And that’s in the face of an angry, near threatening rejection. Would it be the same with a more softly, tentatively expressed “no”?
Joe’s only real excuse here is that Joyce is being even worse with her matchmaking and she pushes him to say it. Of course, he still didn’t have to actually go there.
You know what though? Joyce is the one who came to him for this. This is what he’s got. Is Joe doing a horrible job of hitting on Sarah so more, or a great job of getting Joyce to stop asking him to play matchmaker when he clearly doesn’t want to do so?
As I said, Joyce is being even worse. I don’t think he’s doing any clever ploy or anything. If he really wanted to distract from Sarah’s uncomfortableness and drive them away, he could have gone back to hitting on Joyce – obviously that’s why she came over to sit next to him, because she wants him.
I’ll give him credit that he initially tried to stay quiet, but he didn’t try really hard. Partly I think it’s just his default – women and how hot they are and sex are what he talks about. He doesn’t have anything else.
Joyce is a dense person. Sarah really needs to rip into her for her to stop being so pushy.
At the same time, Sarah wants Joyce to be more pushy in general I think, since it helps Sarah to get out of her more selfish loner ways.
And she’s still very interested in Jacob, even if she’s officially decided not to pursue him, so she’s likely torn on this.
She’d probably like it if it worked.
In real life, at least (and so far the trend here) this doesn’t work but instead is just painfully awkward for everybody.
She didn’t come here to attract a boyfriend, Joyce. Bejesus.
Conservative, non-feminist upbringing says Sarah pretty much exists to attract a boyfriend.
The lesser known 11th commandment: “a woman in possession of fingers must be desirous of a ring upon one.”
Verily, verily, I say unto thee: if thou likest it, thou shouldst surely place a ring upon it.
Joe would very much like to shove it in.
You know I kinda find Joe a lot like Jonny Bravo, if anyone here watched that show.
He’s a character and I take half the shit from his mouth as a joke anyway.
Also, I do totally ship Joyce and Joe together… They’d be kinda good for each other. To calm down Joe and de-fundie-ize Joyce.
I could also ship this actually
Ick.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
Assuming the relationship worked, yes. They would provide new and world-view-expanding perspectives to one another, complimenting each others’ shortcomings.
The relationship would not work.
Nah, Joe’s a lot better at backing off. Also it took Johnny to a movie finale special (which nobody saw) where he literally became famous to start getting any on the regular.
I love this comic, and I love (almost) all of the characters to death, and I hope they all find a good place by the time the story stops.
I actually like joe and see him as rather funny abd likeable hes just a horndog. Hes not foreceful he backs off when told. And doesnt judge others in who and how many people they have sex with acceot danny who admittedly did xeserve to be somewhat judged for some of his stupid behavior. But i see it more of him trying to make joyce uncomfortable and making aj ass of himself because je knows this is awkward for Sarah and Jacob and trying to .ake a good excuse for either of them to leave. Either sarah gets to huff off and be secretly grateful or he can say hey jacob lets go
Pfft! Who even speaks with people?
Also as everyone has already said: phrasing, Joyce.
Comic Reactions:
Yeah, this is going to be another episode of Cerberus gets on her hobby horse about consent, but seriously, it’s an issue that’s important to me. Not just because of my own negative experiences with sexual assault, but because it’s such a crucial part of so many human dynamics and the absence of really good practices surrounding it leads to a lot of major social problems and the normalization of absolute horrific monsters like Donald Trump where he was inappropriately touching little girls on stage and admitted to sexual assault and tried to do a full kiss embrace of his daughter and half the country voted for him anyways.
Are any of the consent fuckups as bad as all that? No. But it shouldn’t just be the worst of it, because there’s a whole system of common bad practices that allows the big wrongs to go unchecked.
So yeah, hobby horse time.
Panels 1 and 2: And the first one I’m gonna rail against is Joyce. This situation is not something Sarah wants to do and by trying to force her through it for her own ships, she’s actively putting Sarah into a miserable position.
Like, fuck, her body language screams vulnerability and discomfort. And it makes sense. Jacob is a recent crush dating someone who harassed her for a year who was a former friend. And someone she has only just started rebuilding normal communication with when they are alone.
Which is a fair sight different than in front of a person whose interactions have mostly been negative for her and the person she first bonded with Jacob by telling embarrassing stories about. And being in a very public place where she’s more likely to feel observed, which is really hard for a closed-in person like Sarah.
And Joyce has opened by putting her in a really crappy position, acting like a matchmaker selling Sarah off to Jacob, setting her right next to him and hinting at her to flirt in public in front of the man’s friend.
And that statement ends up sounding desperate even as it attempts to play off as guarded and indifferent. Like, please god Joyce and Jacob, no, don’t put me on the spot. I can’t, not right now.
And that’s played up a lot more by her body language which is heavily distressed (arms crossed, eyebrows furrowed, eyes glancing away from everyone, grabbing shoulders roughly). Hell, it’s damn close to the body language I get when I’m having a full blown panic attack.
Panel 3: And Joyce, I love you girl, but what you are doing here is actively wrong and harmful to your friend. You are pressing against stated discomforts and noes all to serve a selfish desire you’ve convinced yourself is a selfless one. Forcing these two together will not make either happy and you need to let it go.
And frankly, the idea that Sarah should be in boyfriend-hunting mode simply because she has a crush is hella toxic to begin with.
Plus, for fucks sake Joyce, she’s drowning out there in the ocean you just threw her into. Instead of making it text that you’re trying to set her up with the person you already know is in a committed relationship, fucking throw her a life raft and start up some light conversation. Even if Sarah and Jacob were all on-board SS Sarob, putting them on the spot in public is not going to be conducive to romantic feelings.
And that is a problem that Joyce needs to deal with at some point, that her desires as to the lives of others don’t and shouldn’t matter more than a hill of beans and there’s some things she’s better off staying out of and trying not to force. Especially when they are causing a person this much active distress.
Like, fuck, at that level of distress, Joyce would be well served by trying to set up excuses and move tables so Sarah can recalibrate in peace rather than trying to double down on a Titanic.
Strongly Agree. Somebody please teach Joyce to respect her friends’ boundaries.
Agreed. While the Joe thing hits me in bad places for more personal reasons, Joyce is still being massively Not Okay and a bad friend here.
I’d just like to say that I’ve been following your commentary for a looong time (long before I ever signed up to join in on the comments section myself, which was only very recently), and with each strip I vastly look forward to reading your Comic Reactions. They’ve helped me with a few things.
Keep up the awesome work.
To me it feels like she’s not used to needing to dealing with other people’s boundaries being significantly different than her own, so signs that other people are getting uncomfortable aren’t even registering with her. Like with the way she would loom over people when they woke up, she didn’t even realize there was a problem until it was explicitly pointed out to her.
I can’t tell how much is her being too focused on pairing the two of them up to think about what Sarah actually wants and how much is just really bad social skills. Because it’s like there’s caution tape and traffic cones all over, and she’s walking right through them as if she can’t see them.
I think there’s parallels to be made between her and Joe. Both have been pumped full of toxic messaging and wrapped in toxic worldviews and both have a lot of work to do to get to a good level of actual meaningful consent practices.
Except it’s not JOYCE’S desires for Sarah and Jacob, it’s GOD’S desires. It’s not something you’re supposed to question. Joyce is assuming boyfriend-hunting-mode because she isn’t even aware there are alternatives. Oh, sure, if pressed she’ll acknowledge they’re there, but the awareness isn’t strong enough to impact her decisions.
And something tells me that the busybody pry-into-other-peoples’-romantic-relationships thing is a part of her upbringing. Like, all the role models in her life, from pastor to mom to other church ladies, either did this or gave it tacit approval. This isn’t just bad decision-making on her part, it’s so deeply rooted in her notion of rightness that she isn’t even deciding.
You’re right, of course, the entire scene is completely fucked up*. Just felt like pointing out one more way in which it’s fucked up.
*Except for what Sarah ordered to eat, that part’s okay.
No, I’m going to say it’s Joyce’s. She is aware that Jacob has a girlfriend. Therefore, Boyfriend/Girlfriend is established. Considering she has no actual reason to believe Radiah is a bad girlfriend (other then not liking her, WE don’t have any actual reason to believe Radiah is a bad girlfriend), Joyce is wanting to break up a couple solely as a result of her desire to see Sarah with somebody. That diverges a bit from the Christian narrative.
Except breaking up an “ungodly” couple that isn’t “destined” is also a good tradition in that culture. After all, what is “how it should end up” should matter much more than paltry concerns of what the people in the relationship want (see the creepy way the For Better or Worse author tried to force Anthony/Elizabeth to work despite the person Elizabeth was based on having no interest in her mom’s weird ships and the characters she had created’s previous arcs).
And that worldview gets even more toxic with regards to things like mixed religion relationships, queer relationships, interracial relationships, etc… because “by being ungodly”, those around the relationship are now under moral obligation to try to do anything and everything possible to break up the couple and get the individuals with “proper” partners.
Joyce is an excellent fucking case study of what purity culture does to consent and boundaries.
By which I mean: I grew up in that shit. Joyce doesn’t recognize her friends’ boundaries because she doesn’t recognize personal boundaries are a thing that can exist at all. Because she wasn’t allowed them growing up.
Growing up in that culture, you get no privacy, even in your own thoughts (in more secular households like mine, because your parents could and would demand you divulge whatever you were thinking about in great and gory detail at any moment and if it wasn’t considered “appropriate” than you’re in hot water but if it’s not suitably juicy that they could use it as fodder for whatever object lesson they wanted to turn you into at the moment they would just call you a liar and berate you until you give them something they can use. In Joyce’s situation (with her mother at least), she probably had that, plus the eavesdropping pervert omnipotent and omnipresent stalker/abusive spouse figure that is the Christian purity culture God.
Your parents’ personal boundaries are presented as institutional boundaries, on par with wearing a dress to Church if you’re a woman or girl (my mother is old-fashioned and fundie) or not talking in class at school. But you, personally? You get no privacy or down time. Ever.
If your folks see you relaxing, it’s “Well, if you’re not doing anything, why don’t you do [this make-work]?”
And you can never make plans without running them by your folks first and even then your plans can be ruined at a moment’s notice. “I know you wanted to go work on that project thingie sweetie but I’ve just remembered I have an errand to run in town. You can look after the kids and make sure they do their homework and make dinner for them, right? Oh, and there’s two loads of laundry that need to be done and the lawn needs mowing, you can do that too, right?”
(which once in a while, ok. More often than not when you have a group project, to the point that it’s easier to lie and say you’re going to the library “to study” after school because studying is Approved Of but the possibility of unsupervised socialization is not and your classmate’s parents both work so two 17YOs might wind up without direct supervision and without one in charge for all of an hour or so, which is the REAL reason for your mother’s endless stream of “emergencies” that throw a road block in your plans for the day)
And it would certainly only be worse if you’re brought up in a home-schooling family.
And if any time you’ve ever tried to erect a boundary in your life, it was bulldozed over and you were guilted until you aceded always under the guise that if you “really wanted” the boundary to stay, you could “just say no”? You learn not to have boundaries. And you learn that the socially acceptable response to someone else’s boundaries is to wheedle and cajole and sometimes just outright ignore them until they do what you want.
And that’s what we see Joyce doing.
It’s going to blow up at her sooner or later… I’m hoping sooner rather than later. Cuz that shit is really not ok.
… how I wound up learning about boundaries is I let a friend cajole me into going to an activity that I knew for damn sure was going to be sensory hell for me. I wound up having a meltdown there because sensory hell, and her response surprised the shit out of me because she 1, apologized for asking me to go after I’d already expressed reluctance, and then asked me to let her know if stuff she was inviting me to would affect me like that, because if it would she’d suggest another thing, and then 2, followed through on it.
It was just… what? Saying no, and having it respected, is an option? What?
(there’s a reason I spent most of my first year of uni thanking my friends for being “so nice” to me and having really weirded out friends who didn’t understand why being actual friends and respecting boundaries was apparently worthy of effusive praise and gratitude)
Which, to be perfectly clear, does not excuse Joyce’s behavior in the least – but does explain it to some degree.
Oh, and note that every time Joyce has expressed a firm boundary, she’s expressed a boundary she was raised to believe is institutional. Here: Don’t be lustful. When she was screaming at him not to touch her, she’s expressing the purity culture boundary of women don’t let men touch them, and so on.
Joyce very rarely expresses a personal boundary because it’s how she feels. She expresses boundaries she feels are supported by the institutions she was raised in – but if Sarah wanted to drag Joyce off to some activity Joyce hated, she’d go along because she feels she should, and she’d probably be unable to give a hard “No, I’m not comfortable with this,” to it if it’s not a thing she can back up with her social institutions’ rules.
All of what you said and yeah, learning that she and others have personal boundaries is likely to be one of the next big growth arcs for her, I think.
We’ve been seeing examples of her starting to recognize things about it with the conversation with Dorothy during the mock marriage and in her weekend with the family and we’re seeing her screw stuff up because of those lack of boundaries with Sarah here.
I just hope she learns more about boundaries before she doesn’t just get choked or pushed off a bed, she gets actively knocked on her ass.
I do not like people other than family, the boyfriend, and sometimes friends in my bubble – I also don’t like being touched while I’m sleeping. Doing both the way Joyce is? I think that my ‘scared awake’ reaction would have been to slap her and that would not have gone well.
I wonder if part of Joyce’s problem with boundaries comes from being the youngest of five children?
(Only child here)
Youngest of four – John, Jordan, Jocelyne, and her. In Walkyverse she had two more brothers, Jared and Justin.
It’s an interesting question though – she told Billie it was her job to wake her brothers at home. This might be part of it (at least the ‘climbing up onto people’s beds’ part).
I’m the eldest of two or a bunch or a metric fuckload depending on how you count (it’s complicated).
Youngest kids in big families tend to be allowed to get away with bloody murder relative to what would be expected of the eldest at a similar age. The eldest (you see this with John) is expected to be secondary parent, and winds up having more of a parental/caretaker role to the younger sibs than a traditional sibling role – complicated by the fact that the younger sibs don’t see them as a parent but as a sib. The youngest, on the other hand, is the baby and gets away with everything largely because they’re cute(r) than the older siblings. Youngest kids tend to have looser standards on politeness and behavior than older kids had at the same age (partly because parents have figured out what’s actually age-appropriate to expect, partly because parents need to pick their battles in big families, but mainly because there’s just too many kids to pay attention to so you can’t pick apart one in particular as much as you could when there was only one or two of them).
An example from my household: when I was 17, as the eldest, if I had a friend over while the parents weren’t home, I’d be grounded for a month, no excuses. One of my sibs, as one of the youngest at 17, had a house party with 30 kids and underage drinking and all that while my folks were away… My folks thanked her for cleaning up and praised her responsibility for making sure nobody drove drunk.
Then there’s the fact that youngest sibs get to act immature because they make the parents go “Aw, that’s cute” and “Remember when [eldest sib] did that?” They make the parents feel nostalgic about the past and also there’s the fact that the youngest is, well, the youngest – there won’t be another kid coming along to take over tackle-hug-first-thing-in-the-morning duties. When that kid grows out of it, that’s it. So parents (or, my parents, at least) don’t push youngest kids to grow up as quick because they want to treasure the childishness while they can get it.
My point is that: You’re probably not wrong – in that Joyce was allowed to get away with stuff her sibs wouldn’t have been.
(Cue youngest kids piling on about how the eldest always got to do cool shit and got new stuff instead of hand-me-downs and thought they were so much better and smarter and in some cases used the power that came with being eldest to push around their sibs… all of which is a fair criticism of eldest kids, I admit)
OTOH, Joyce was a girl in a fundamentalist Christian family. As youngest and a girl, she probably did get doted on and indulged more than the others, but she also certainly faced boundaries and limitations they didn’t
Oldest of three here, and yes, that shit drove me crazy. Example: I would have to beg just to borrow the car to drive to the library, or a friends house, somewhere I didn’t really want to ride a bike too. However, I was expected to drive the two younger ones wherever they needed to go. Fast forward to me going off to university, only to discover when I come home for a weekend visit that Dad had bought youngest sister a car because I wasn’t around anymore and they didn’t want to drive her around.
Goddamn it’s 8 AM and I’m eating pancakes and I don’t believe in God but just gave thanks to all those non-existent deities that I wasn’t born in such an awful environment.
“Shove it right back in” is probably not the phrasing Joyce should be using with Joe.
JOYCE: Shove it right back in.
JOE: That’s what *she* said!
JOYCE: They *know* that’s what I said. They’re right here listening to me say it! Why is everybody giggling?
Panel 6: Okay, let me start out by praising the good of Joe. He’s shown some actual good consent awareness. At least at the obvious sides of “no means no”. Like, his earlier commentary to Joyce over text pointing out how toxic her actions were being and that neither Jacob nor Sarah seem to want what she’s pushing for. That was good.
Similarly, holding his damn tongue on Sarah and remembering and recognizing that Sarah screamed in his face her noes and not pushing his usual shit on her because of that.
Hell, a lot of his interactions with Joyce are a lot better. At least in text he’s massively turned down the innuendo and who knows, he might be finally processing through some of his toxic baggage and growing into the sort of guy that it might not be actively dangerous to date.
So yeah, I’m gonna praise him for that, cause I gotta still shred him for the rest of it.
I say he almost understands “no means no”, because as Shiro pointed out above, he’s still doing this shitty fucking “oh you said no, but hey, I’m still gonna throw out a few lines and see if I catch a retraction”. His respect for noes is not final and respectful and a part of him still views things as a challenge and that leads to bullshit like “oh, I won’t mention I have access to a sex swing, but I totally have access to a sex swing and besides her “behavior” is “doing it for me”.
It’s… okay, like, imagine there’s a guy who’s stated he likes you, but then says it’s cool, he knows you’re not interested, but then keeps on making comments about how hot you are and little invitations for sex while stressing how important it is to him that you’re friends and he’s aware you’re not interested and he respects that.
Would you trust him to mean that or would you suspect that this guy is going to be whining about friendzones within the month?
It’s the same sort of thing here.
So, he “almost” understands no means no.
And the sad truth is that no means no is a real fucking low bar and it is a travesty that so often so many, especially so many who are young men fail even that low bar.
And well, I grew up as someone who believed at the time that I was a straight male and I was given that low bar and I despised it, because I recognized it then as I do now as a joke of a bar compared to what consent in its fullest form should actually be.
And that’s where Joe fails. He consistently fucks up “yes means yes”. That pushing through soft and hard noes is not okay. That someone must physically rebuff advances to even get the weird retaliatory creeper jokes he makes afterwards.
And well, the creeper shit he admits here. Like let’s unpack one half of a line:
“Sarah’s behavior is doing all sorts of things for me”.
Sarah’s “behavior” right now is vulnerable and scared. She’s looking away, her eyes are furrowed, her arms are crossed. That… that isn’t a sexy look. Hell, that’s not even a sexy submissive look for dominant types. And that Joe interprets signals that are signs of fear and discomfort as “hella hot, should pursue” is a giant ass red flag for me.
And it’s a common problem for Joe, especially so, because he’s wrapped up in a toxic culture that makes “pick-up” a game, so the more disinterested and miserable looking the woman, the more “points” in pressing through and “winning” an encounter by any means necessary.
And it’s terrifying because… well, my trauma response is freezing. I’ve learned that the hard way. And so yeah, I worry a lot about someone without the confidence of Joyce or Sarah targeted by him interpreting someone’s vulnerability and discomfort as a signal for “come at me big boy”. Cause a lot of women are going to go for a soft no over a hard no because they’ve been socially trained to never deliver a hard no, especially in public, and because a lot of women know men can get violent and vengeful over a no they decide feels “too (slur for assertive woman)y.”
And well, Joe’s whole style is forcing women to have to scream at him to get him to stop and even then it makes you the direct focus of crass sexual harassment. Like, fuck, we don’t see him making constant crude jokes at Roz in the same way he does with Joyce and Sarah, the two women who we’ve seen have rejected him.
There’s a cost to saying no to him and part of it is you become part of a public performance of Joe the good at consent man, respecting your boundaries and demanding you recognize it ever after.
Does this mean that Joe is unsalvageable? Hell no. Lots of men escape the toxic messages of those sorts of cultures and we’ve seen some growth with Joyce and in his initial silence here. These are positive signs and there’s hope that he can continue to grow and improve.
But I’m going to continue to be offput by these sorts of red flags, especially coming from a unique background of being a queerromantic asexual who is involved in BDSM and thus prime fodder for creepers like Joe who see folks like me as a “challenge” and like interpreting my negative body signals as signals to try and push against my boundaries without consent.
Cause right now, he’s just reminding me of the missing stairs that folks try and warn the newbies about because they are too well-connected to cannon-toss entirely.
Ohhhh shit, I had completely missed the part about exactly what behavior was doing it for Joe. That’s…really fucking horrific, augh. I was approaching it from the angle of “ugh irritating creeper who won’t respect anyone’s boundaries,” but that specific detail just takes it to predator level.
I will be very, very glad when this stage of his development is over.
Thankfully, my group has managed to toss out (as far as I know; I haven’t been active for about a year now) all our missing stairs–we’re a smaller bunch of mostly neuroatypical queer people of various stripes, so it’s a bit like family. The last one got tossed after another girl and I expressed how fucking creepy he was, thankfully. But don’t get me started on him, I’ll TMI all over the place.
It’s occurred to me that Joe is so personally objectionable to me in part because we’re of a similar cut, sexually free in both word and deed. The difference is I try to make sure my audience is cool with it before I start discussing my sex swing, and if I cross that line with someone who doesn’t want to hear about it, I immediately back off and apologize. Which he should too! And it frustrates me that he doesn’t! And that, in fact, he uses such a thing as a tool to turn a hard no into a yes! What the actual fuck, Joe!
Apologies for rambling.
*appropriate gestures of both sympathy for all the shit, and happiness for solving at least some of the shit*
Thank you ♥ Definitely glad to be past that dude, and I’m kind of glad he went for me instead of some other girl who was less equipped to deal with him.
Nah, I feel largely the same. Like, there’s a difference between “oh, you have a fantasy about a sex swing, well I happen to have one, if you happen to be interested” and “I know you said no, but what if I said I had X sexual toy, does that change your mind, ya know, your negative body language trying to squirm away from me is really doing it for me. Super hot.”
And the fact that I’ve met people in real life who didn’t understand that difference makes me less likely to tolerate it from Joe the cartoon character.
Exactly! Auuugh, ick. And it bothers me how that uncomfortable reaction is even fetishized in the mainstream to a degree–especially in things like anime.
Aieee, I thought Joe meant that he was attracted to Sarah’s bluntness or something.
But nope, he meant that he likes ’em creeped out and uncomfortable. Nope nope nope, that’s not something you tell people who are creeped out and uncomfortable right now.
Oh, wow, I hadn’t even noticed her body language.
That’s normal for me. I don’t really do eye contact and I usually don’t look at people I’m talking to. I can pay attention to words or I can watch faces and body language, but I can’t process both all that at the same time, so I tend to focus on words. That carries over to how I read comics, apparently. So I was reading Sarah as being… not exactly misanthropic, but asocial and hermitish and curmudgeony and snarky about it.
I thought those personality quirks were what was turning Joe on.
…. definitely, definitely not.
I was halfway thinking, maybe Sarah was liking that Joe was saying what he was saying, not because she wants or appreciates or even tolerates the sexual commentary, but because it’s someone contradicting Joyce’s view of how Sarah should behave. It wouldn’t be defensible, but I thought maybe it might be in “no harm this time” territory.
But you’re right. Body language, moments of hesitation, eye direction, self-minimizing. Sarah’s taking a road trip through Awkwardsas, and this is NOT THE TIME JOE. Not that it ever is the time after she’s said no, but this is DOUBLE TRIPLE QUADRUPLE NOT THE TIME JOE. Damn, I suck at reading social cues.
It’s horrifying to see it spelled out like that. I didn’t fully appreciate how terrible Joe is being.
And to those who are like, well, what has Joe done that’s really that off. Me and my mates do that shit all the time, I’d like to just submit this as my go-to response to all that as me and Emperor talked for an hour on the podcast on this subject and it ended with us both feeling like we needed a shower:
https://skepticalclown.wordpress.com/2016/11/08/podcasting-of-age-episode-1/#more-422
And if I may be so bold, my personal favourite part from that podcast is when I talk about how Joe’s view of consent and sexuality (especially male sexuality) is so skewed, he even harms his own right to informed consent with it.
It was a really good point, honest, for those that are interested in it.
That is probably one of the best parts. Such a good podcast!
I’m pretty much on the same page as Cerberus. I was all for Joyce helping Sarah out and making her feel comfortable but…obviously we’re getting away from that. It’s like these people have never met an introvert. It’s why I’ve been uncomfortable when people get annoyed with Sarah before like, you can be annoyed with how she treats Jacob and how she sees him, that’s valid. But not liking how she’s antisocial makes me uncomfortable. Sarah is a cynical person, yes. But she’s a PERSON and you don’t force someone to interact like that. What she said in panel two is rude, as is the way of Sarah, but Joyce’s response is also rude. And likely to make Jacob awkward. Like instead of communicating as friends these two have taken a seat at Joe and Jacob’s table and Joyce sort of made it all about man-catching. As a taken man who wants to save sex for a special occasion, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Jacob excuses himself.
And what’s more… Joyce is basically forcing Sarah to get worse again. Sarah was making progress with Jacob in her own way just yesterday (comic time)! Now Joyce put her in a situation she wasn’t prepared for and cannot get out of, and -of course- Old Sarah will come back out again in such a situation. Nobody (at least that I know of) gets magically better with just one big epiphany, it requires patience and time and continuously working at it to make a lasting change.
And perhaps more importantly, Joyce right now isn’t really caring about Sarah, she’s caring about her own idealised notion of “two people just meant to be together!” She may live in the real world, but her head is still inside a Disney movie (assuming there were any Disney movies on the “approved” list when she grew up).
So yeah, I’d be pretty pissed off if that happened to me. And I’d be rude about too. Ruder than Sarah, who’s actually showing some remarkable restraint here.
To everyone who opined that Joyce would make an excellent RA… I submit the opinion that this storyline shows that she would not.
Exactly! Sarah’s been making good strides on her own, sitting at the front of the classroom and talking with Jacob. Joyce helps in smaller doses, such as meeting to have lunch with Sarah. That was thoughtful for her and definitely communicated to Jacob that as standoffish as Sarah is, she does have people who care enough about her to want to eat with her. This sort of reminds me of how things were with Raidah and friends before Dana went home. Compared to Joyce right here, their efforts to include Sarah by extending an invitation and showing her a good time was very sweet. They didn’t corner her into interactions or joining in a conversation (from what we see at least) and that’s why after that shitstorm happened for Sarah, with the group of people she was getting comfortable with turning into a pariah, she IS so standoffish. If that shit happened to me because I was trying to help my roommate, I’d hate people do! I mean I sorta do now but that’s a different story altogether.
Joyce started this with good intentions, but she needs to take it down a few notches. She shouldn’t see this as matchmaking or putting them together to get married. The goal should be at least helping them be friends, because honestly Jacob could be a nice friend for Sarah so long as Raidah doesn’t give him anymore one-sided stories about her. IF, and this is a big if but IF anything more develops between Sarah and Jacob, that’s between them.
*turning her into a pariah
As a proud member of the “Joyce for RA fanclub”… yeah, you got a point. She would be a intolerable busy-body, and not always in a hilarious way.
Who’d snap and kill ‘busybody!RA!Joyce” first, Sal, Carla, Billie, or Sarah?
Now I want to see the trailer for a horror movie set on third floor Clark.
The cursed RA position – everyone who takes it ends off badly.
Roman Jones has an excellent comic on how to socially support an introverted person and why actions like Joyce’s towards Sarah can feel actively threatening and awful for an introvert like Sarah:
http://romanjones.deviantart.com/art/How-to-Live-with-Introverts-PDF-available-291305760
And another good comic, this one by Robot Hugs on how to support an introvert that is withdrawing in a non-pushing manner:
http://www.robot-hugs.com/under-2/
Robot-hugs is the best. I like how they understand things about introverts like me.
And cats. That’s an easy “in” for so many of my friends. Then some of em most a8round the archives and get a bit hooked.
Dammit!
Now I have another web-comic to link into!
(And one with no calendar that I can easily find, so I’ll have to find a day and binge… it’s a hard life…)
thankyou
Sarah reminds me a lot of me. I was like an unholy marriage of Sarah, Joyce and Dina as a kid, with a bit of Danny thrown in. Studious and introverted, sheltered as fuck, socially awkward and autistic as all hell, and prone to a bit of a martyr complex.
I social one on one, mostly. Occasionally in small groups. But small group socialization does not occur in public. It instead occurs at home in a place I’m comfortable with.
Social in a public space, with a person I have a (probably unrequited) attraction for, with someone I actively dislike and surrounded by a bunch of strangers? Nope. Not on for me.
(leaving aside the sensory challenges with crowded casual restaurants like college pizza bars. Those places are LOUD and often chaotic – odds are pretty good I’d be in full sensory overload shutdown* in 30 minutes or less. 10 minutes if I’m having a bad sensory day to begin with).
* I am autistic. A shutdown is a meltdown’s quieter cousin, marked by spacing out, exhaustion, worse-than-usual difficulty with communication, and an inability to keep attention. My experience with meltdowns is that they’re like being so exhausted you forget how to make words happen and everything is very slow like I’m wading through moleasses to get my brain to do anything. Shutdowns themselves are annoying enough – especially if they happen at some sort of important social thing – but the really big problem for me is the post-shutdown “hangover” where I’m tired and cranky and irritable and more likely to meltdown or shutdown for the next week or so afterwards. I can really easily wind up in a feedback loop where shutting down leaves me more vulnerable to more shutdowns/meltdowns which causes more of those to happen and snowballs from there until I need to take a few sick days or use up some vacation time just to get my head balanced again.
Bad move, Joyce. You are the silly, safe one everyone waits for to keep talking to not make things awkward. Tell them about your food preferences!
http://imgur.com/a/dhFrM
That sounds dangerous, Joe.
MAN-DANGLE!!!
Goddamnit Joe. You were doing ok until you got to the “so I won’t”. Unless that was some sort of hamfisted attempt at a self depreciating joke to lighten the mood, in which case you completely failed and made things even worse.
I actually think Joe might be trying to do Sarah a favour here by making things awkward for everyone at the table as opposed to just awkward for her.
He’s completely derailed the topic of “attracting a boyfriend”. He’s drawing the attention away from Sarah and to himself, essentially giving her time to adjust to the situation. Hell, he’s giving Sarah a perfectly understandable and indebatably valid reason for leaving the table if she wants that would not make Jacob wonder what that all was about.
As an introvert, in Sarah’s situation my reaction to Joe would be far closer to “Thank you for opening your mouth” than it would be to “Oh shit what are you saying”. Though there would be a bit of the latter, too.
Throwing himself on a conversational grenade for the greater good?
I also saw it as this. Hes making ab ass of himself to give Sarah a reason to leave without lookibg bad abd also pissing of joyce for being rude and a busybody. Because he knows talkibg about sex toys will uoset her and give sarah ab excuse to yell at him and make everyone feel awkward not just sarah
*reads alt-text* This is probably the first argument that makes me seriously consider looking for someone to have a relationship with. Then again, I would probably have to talk to that person before getting to that point, so… pass.
Maybe all the very introverted people could date each other, they could read books sorta nearby, while giving each other lots of space and not talking much… I guess that’s basically going to a library, though.
I’ve already grown to accept the very real possibility that no one would ever marry me.
This may just be me but I don’t think that this is what Joe was really thinking about. I think that he was using his infamous personal stereotype as an attempt to deflect, distract and, dare I say it punish Joyce. He certainly did the first two but I’m not sure that Joyce has the right mindset that the third is possible using sarcasm or parody.
Nah, that last word balloon (coupled with Joe’s expression) feels like he’s blurting that out that was the bit he’d been holding in
Yeah, Joe, shove it right back in.
You Were asking for it Joyce and you must have known perfectly well what will come out of Joe’s mouth.
Joyce, I hope you know that your words could SO be taken out of context in a hilarious way. 😀
In Sarah’s defense Jacob is asking her a very invasive question here. Who just casually asks a person what she’s thinking? Fuck off, Jacob mcNoseyPerson
In my experience everyone, but they don’t really expect a proper answer. Once I realised “Nothing, much” was perfectly acceptable, it got a lot easier to deal with.
(It took me longer to realise that than it did with “How are you feeling?” which is even more intrusive if you think you’re expected to actually answer it, and not just say “fine”.)
I think the idea is that people can be intimidated to say what’s on their mind without a prompt.
“What’ve you been thinking about?”
“Oh, you’re interested! I was thinking about abiogenesis mechanisms. Do you suppose a TCA-type cycle might be stable prior to gene-coded enzymes, or…or…um. I mean, nothing, much.”
As a storytelling device, doesn’t Willis use overlapping speech balloons pretty sparingly?
It’s very effective here.
I feel so bad for Sarah. It’s impressive she tolerates Joyce at all without this kind of shit mixed in.
Joyce! Phrasing!
I had no idea how horrible this would be until it happened. I expected a little awkward around the edges with Joe there, sure, I always do. But this is soooo many clashing viewpoints and personalities in one tiny cubicle like space.
Speak louder third-panel Joyce. I’m sure Jacob didn’t hear it immediately from the other side of the table.
That’s why she didn’t say “attract Jacob”. She is the mistress of subtlety.
I thought Sarah was really after Ken. Or was it Galasso?
Joe has access to a sex swing, in that there is a swing, and he likes to have sex on it. The location and circumstances of the swing are left as an exercise for the reader.
Cue wheelchair-using character who enjoys a casual relationship with Joe.
The whole ‘I won’t do X, but I’m still going to make a remark about Y’ is something I’m far too familiar with. With tourettes and OCD, I’ve inadvertently weirded out a lot of people in my teenage years. The more inappropriate a sentence is in any situation, the more difficult it becomes to shut the hell up about it. That’s not to say that Joe has OCD or that it’d excuse his behaviour in general if he did. But for this particular page, I can’t roll my eyes at him without feeling like a hypocrite.
I can sort of relate to this, except for me it was a thing of genuinely not understanding what’s inappropriate to talk about.
I was the sort of person who’d have a long and in-depth monolog about all the horrible horrible ways in which dioxygen difluoride can fuck your body up over lunch, completely oblivious to the fact that everyone is staring uncomfortably at me and nobody has had appetite for about ten minutes now.
And I wouldn’t do it on purpose… but rather I was like Dina, only with a less-dinnertime-appropriate obsession than dinosaurs.
(dioxygen difluoride is pretty fucking amazing tho – it reacts explosively with glass. Glass is pretty damn close to the most chemically inert substance out there, and F2O2 reacts explosively with it. Just, uh… don’t inhale it. Or get it on you. Or otherwise get exposed to it. It will kill you very very dead. Very dead. And not in a nice way, either.)
Now I want to learn more about dioxygen difluoride
(To clarify, this is not sarcasm. That sounds fascinating, and I never learnt about it in my chem classes!)
Is the chemical structure along the lines of F-O-O-F? Because I can see how that could be super reactive.
(Not actually linear of course, and I didn’t show all the outer shell electrons, but it was the best I could do quickly on a computer without an actual program or anything)
Yes! Chemists because we are snide at heart call it FOOF because of the structure and that it makes everything go “Foof!”
No really. That’s why.
That is amazing!
I’ve tried to post a link twice without success. If you google:
foof stuff I won’t work with
The top link should be a chemist talking about, well, how he won’t work it it and why.
Look, just keep it in a refrigerator chilled to a few degrees above absolute zero and you’ll be FIIIIINE. What’s the worst that could happen?
I think everyone who is even remotely interested in this kind of stuff (things that will kill you very very dead through chemistry) should buy Randall Munroe’s “What If…” book. In this book, he answers the question “What if I put up a periodic table of elements with the actual elements in it?”
The answer is… interesting, to say the least. Now find that book!
I love What If?
It started as a regular column on his xkcd website – my favorite was andremains relativistic baseball. Because it’s exactly the kind of thing that chemists find hilarious.
(yes, I was giggling until I cried when I read that one. Chemist and physicist and engineer humor tends to the morbid. I think it’s a side-effect of working with stuff that could kill or horribly maim you every day)
My thoughts: Joe is… making progress.
By which I mean: Joe’s still a creepy asshole. At least this time he made something that looked like a ghost of a hint of an effort not to be a creepy asshole. That is a lot more than he would’ve done before.
Doesn’t mean he’s not an asshole.
Also: Joyce needs to learn a hard lesson about boundaries real soon.
Fully agree. He’s still a creeper, but he’s showing signs of slowly moving away from creeperdom and that’s worth celebrating.
I dunno. I mean, this is better than some of his earlier behavior, yes. But I’m wondering how much of that is just that this is a relatively good day, and how much of it is genuine reform.
If getting choked, yelled at, and pushed off a bed hasn’t helped her, I’m not sure what will.
I’m starting to suspect she’s going to overstep something important and get thoroughly, thoroughly chewed up and spat out, a la “Roz yelling at her in Gender Studies class”. Probably not Roz this time. This one has to be from someone she likes – like Becky, Billie, Dorothy, Sarah, Sal, someone like that. Someone she’d be hurt about disappointing.
As soon as she was asking for Joe’s opinion, she should’ve know what might come out there!
But seriously, all those awkward silences – what happened to the basic small talk? Couldn’t you just ask “Well, how was your day? Did classes today bore you too?” (oh all the possibilities….)
well, I realised they’re more of “awkward faces” and not “silences”
Okay, between classes and I have food in me, let’s do this!
Panel One: Aw, geez, look at Sarah here. She looks MISERABLE. She’s got her arms crossed in a way that covers herself up, her eyes are all scrunched up, and she looks intensely awkward and uncomfortable here. I notice she’s looking away from everyone else too. She asked not to come over here, but Joyce did not listen. Even if a boundary isn’t immediately obvious to you, when people tell you ‘No, I don’t want to do this thing’, you stop trying to make them do that thing (barring the usual ‘death or serious harm/illness to self or others’ pause there).
It’s disappointing because Jacob is trying to be nice to her. He’s reaching out and asking what she’s thinking about, trying to involve her in conversation. Considering he knows she’s reclusive, that’s nice of him to try to help her out. Shame the issue is she does not want to be here, but Joyce dragged her over. So, yeah, Sarah’s just like ‘nope, don’t want it, don’t pay attention to me, go bother Joyce or Joe, they like people’. The thing about socializing people who don’t like socializing is it that much like, say, exposure therapy, it has to be on that person’s terms. You can’t just throw them out to people and say ‘figure it out’.
Panel Two: Yeah, that’s cranky, but that’s what happens when you bring people out to socialize against their wills. For god’s sake, Joyce, no means no. So yeah, Sarah’s grumpy. I can’t blame her. I’m grumpy with Joyce now on her behalf.
And yeah, when Sarah doesn’t have any interest in conversing, she’s happy to let the extroverts hog the conversation so she doesn’t have to get involved. It’s a strategy that often works – don’t draw attention to yourself and let other people hog the time until you can make a suitable escape. It’s not a good thing, but you know what, neither is dragging someone into an encounter they didn’t want, so I’m less inclined to be hard on Sarah for it.
Panel Three: Joyce, you’re not Susan Patton. It’s not your job to push MRS degrees on everyone else. Knock it off.
That said, this doesn’t shock me. Considering the culture she was raised in, this was probably a very viable tool to get girls ‘behaving’. I can see Carol or Powers or Lundgren or John or Toedad or early Hank using that to get Joyce or Becky back in line. It probably worked too, since they weren’t allowed other ambitions. Womens are for marrying men and having and homeschooling lots and lots of babies because Jesus.
Panel Four: Yeah, I can see Joyce expecting Joe to chime in with some crack about Sarah’s ‘crankiness’. I thought he would too. Or this could be expecting him to be gross or wanting him to back her up. If it’s the last one…..no, Joyce. No.
Panel Five: Joyce, stop. When people say ‘no, I’m good’ that’s your queue to back off. Also, do you really want to hear it? It’s Joe. The over under on it being gross is pretty good.
Panel Six: GODDAMMIT JOE. I admit, I laughed at first and then I thought about it and EW. NO. STOP. Sarah’s told you before she hates you, to fuck off, and she’s not on your menu. Don’t talk about how she’s ‘doing things for you’ when she’s awkward and uncomfortable when she is RIGHT FUCKING THERE. Doubly don’t bring up what specific toys you think she’d want access to. GROSS. This is not the same as a joke with your buds – Sarah and Joe can be friendly, but they’re not friends (and definitely not close friends). It is also not the same as trying your luck with someone politely. This is some passive ‘Oh, you asked me not to talk about X, here I am not talking about X, but here are some details related to X – hey, why’re you upset? I just said I wouldn’t talk about X!” bullshit that people use to disrespect boundaries in ways they hope won’t get them rightfully told off. It’s obnoxious. And thank you Joyce for telling him to shut up, though it’d be nice if you didn’t push him to talking. And I don’t think this is just him teasing Joyce. That doesn’t look like his usual teasing face.
Now that that’s all done, I have to wonder – I know some religious and cultural communities still practice matchmaking (usually in the form of ‘oh, you’re looking? I know someone who’s looking! Can I set you up and see if you like each other?’, but sometimes in the form of more traditional matches). Is that a thing for evangelicals or nah? Think it’s something Joyce’s community could be into? Or is this just a pastime for the busy body church ladies Joyce would’ve looked up to growing up?
BBCC-
Panel 1: And this is one of the big reasons I like looking at consent models that go beyond the sexual. Cause even non-sexual stuff like socialization can have negative effects if it is forced over one’s desires and wants. And for Sarah, she’s asocial to antisocial. She has very limited brackets in which she can do social activity and this is as you note, immersion therapy without the consent, which is just traumatizing someone in the name of doing them a good turn.
Panel 3: Ooh, I want to imagine now that the reason Becky got a reputation for being “worse socialized” than Joyce is that Becky kept feeling drawn to the behaviors that made one “less husband worthy” because of how traumatic that thought was.
Panel 5: Yup, Joyce’s consent practices today have been frickin’ awful.
Panel 6: Yeah, it’s just… yeah, I’ve ranted about this. But it’s also frustrating, because there’s always that guy in any “sex-positive” space who is just… this. Just constantly turning the conversation to his boner feels and his own fetishes and low-key pressuring regardless of whether it is appropriate, wanted, or been told off by people around them.
And frequently they’re also frequently the ones I hear about being banned several months later from a space for assaulting or harassing the other people in really not okay ways. Or the ones who make creepy jokes about “recruiting” gay and ace identified women into “liking dick again”.
Final thought response: Yes, there is a matchmaking culture, though not as formalized as it is in other cultures. But yeah, the older church ladies will “encourage” certain couples and discourage others and there’s a general pressure to date inside youth groups to “a good Christian man” and in some sects, the man is actually chosen by the parents and presented to the woman when she’s a younger girl.
Overall though, the rules in the communities I was adjacent to was that you were encouraged to “same youth group”, required to “same sect”, required to “same race”, and heartily encouraged to pursue whichever kids who did the best job of seeming obedient and pious during Sunday School, and outright banned to whoever had earned the full displeasure of the Church by say leaving or becoming atheist or having gotten pregnant or otherwise revealed to be an “irredeemable sinner”. Things like drug addictions, histories of abuse, assault allegations, and so on were of course immediately discounted as “the Lord forgives all us sinners”, though may get you bumped to second-string, mostly if the drugs abused were ones that are seen as “non-white person drugs”.
Yeah, I’ve been the Sarah there where I regretted getting talked into social interactions and then hung out in my room to hide forever and recharge. Bleh. Nothing gets the ‘ew people’ instincts going than being forced to talk to them against my will.
My head canon is the adults were regularly shaking their heads at Becky for climbing trees or something because that’s not what good girls who get husbands do. They watch (parent approved!) tv or read good, parent approved books, or like to cook or help around the house and why can’t she be more like Joyce, playing homeschool teacher or house, isn’t that sweet?
They really are. I’m sensing a storm coming over her abysmal sense of boundaries.
Ah yes, and when you tell them to stop you’re ‘sex shaming’ or ‘kink shaming’. As though real life is an internet forum where you can avoid the threads talking about squicky stuff. No, you stop advancing on people who’ve told you to fuck off.
Ahh, I see! I’ve read testimonials from girls who were in South Asian, Jewish, or Romani communities before – most of the time it sounded more like organized blind dating than any actual pressure to find and marry them right now with no say in the matter, though I have heard one or two more like that Evangelical situation you described. And I’m guessing men actually means grown ass men getting set up with pubescent (or god forbid, pre-pubescent) children? UGH.
Yeah, worst instance I saw was with a freshman girl when I was in HS who had to stop dating, because she was now “of age” to “meet her future husband”. So, this little 14 year old was being shopped around to grown-ass men in their 20s and 30s who would be her “future groom” after she reached 18 (she belonged to one of the more… yeah, mormon sects).
It was creepy as fuck. Worst part was her explaining it all as if this was just a normal part of growing up.
Yikes! That is disgusting. I hope she ended up okay. That is incredibly creepy and sounds like child grooming. You’d think the school would have had something to – never mind. Fundieville. Right.
The communities I’d read testimonials from that were….less creepy generally, from what I understood, operated under ‘You can’t drag someone to a matchmaker to be married against their will, they come because they want to start dating seriously for marriage reasons, the matchmaker keeps track of who’s come to them and sets them up. Ideally, they like each other and take it from there. If not, they can find someone else or ask the matchmaker to try someone else.”
Once I let slip I was atheist in my HS, there were kids who were legit not allowed to talk to me. At all.
There were other kids who’d follow me around telling me I’d go to hell and would burn forever with the other sinners. Some left notes in my locker. Some would jump me at my locker.
It wasn’t just cuz I was atheist (I was also, rightly, read as queer and yeah the autism tendency to monolog and not eye contact and difficulty with social stuff in general certainly helped to paint the proverbial target on my back too), but once the atheism cat slipped the bag, there was a huge uptick in bullying and a huge downtick in teacher interest in making even a token effort to discourage it.
One day a girl followed me around all fucking day screaming abuse at me (for Jeebus, of course), and teachers were all like, “*shrug* Religious freedom, what canya do?”
Which is not as bad as what happened to the only kid to come out as gay in the school – the day after, he was hospitalized for three months because of a beating. Two days after he returned, he was beaten badly enough to land in ICU, and then he switched schools. Couple years later, there was a girl who let slip she was questioning to a friend, and within the week she’d been threatened with corrective rape by a good half-dozen of the boys. There was also at least one girl I know of who came out as lesbian to her folks and they sent her to one of those brainwash camps where a corrective rape happened. Another woman in the area has a trans daughter and is supportive of it, and she lost literally all of her friends as a result – she is totally isolated there, because everyone thinks it would’ve been better for her to have a dead son than a live trans daughter (I know this because I’ve been told as much by them in so many words).
There’s a reason I reflexively default to “stay in closet” in meatspace until I know I can trust someone and the fact that I survived 10 years there entirely by keeping my head down and never letting anyone confirm their suspicions is it. Old habits die hard, and old survival mechanisms die harder.
FUCK, just realized how a sentence will be read and it’s my biggest pronoun fuckup in a long time.
By “supportive of it” in that other sentence, I was not referring to the trans daughter, but rather to trans issues in general. My bad. Very, very sorry. 🙁
Not an excuse but: The above is a good example of autistic difficulty with language and pronouns – I have a hard time keeping track of what pronoun will be read as referring to what, and to keep track of implications as a result of sentence & language structure. Still, I should’ve re-read again more carefully, and I’m sorry.
I read “it” as the situation, not as the gender of the trans daughter. The sentence still works!
NOW THAT I HAVE SEEN THE JOE/SARAH OTP IN MY HEAD, I CANNOT UNSEE IT!!
They’re a perfect match! Sarah is depressed and craving the nookie. Joe provides nookie, and prides himself on nookie skills. Nookie provides endorphins. Even Joe can match Sarah’s ridiculously low expectations for her live. I can see this going well.
JJ is just too cute for words.
Joyce, you remember that super-uncomfortable moment in class when you had an epiphany about the church and GLBT people? You’re careening toward another one of those on a related topic.