becky is me when my mama makes me dress up for something minus the resentment for my choose in a being braless and wearing a loose topped maxi dress that has a deep v neck.
Might’ve been something of Joyce’s; a dress she didn’t care for enough to bring to university. Carol seems to be a size or two off from Becky, but the dress fits well enough.
I have a bad feeling it’s gonna be worse when they get to the church. Anyone wanna put odds on Mom having set up a prayer vigil to ‘cure’ Becky, or something equally rage-inducing? Maybe just a public prayer for her to be forgiven for violating the Fifth Commandment (Honoring thy mother and thy giant toe)…?
This is not specific to every guy of course but…if you want help from a guy then be direct, say what sort of help you want and the guy will then give the best advice he can
This is what men do (again not being specific) we want to be problem solvers, heroes even
We solve a problem we feel good, the hearts a good way to mans stomach but the egos even better
Now that they’ve gotten to know each other (and had that terrible date), I actually don’t see Joe going back to creepily harassing her. She’s not just some nameless girl he’s trying to sleep with anymore, she’s a friend of his, or at least appears to be.
That said, if he end up getting a crush on her, he may temporarily revert back to that from the sheer panic of realizing that his dick caught feelings
Right, but I mean girls other than Joyce too. It doesn’t count if he’s only not creeping on her because now they’re friends, he has to actually develop a respect for women.
Honestly, I hope he does revert. I’d much rather see that dealt with and addressed as a problem than just switch over to supportive friend (or even relationship) without getting to see some conflict over the change. Growth is great. But it doesn’t come without facing the problems.
This really isn’t that out of there. We aren’t skipping a crucial beat in his character arc, we’re seeing him put in a new situation that fits with how he’s acted previously, and he probably won’t stop being Joe with everyone else.
Joyce is someone he’s uninterested in for sex, and she’s directly asking him for solutions for his problems. That’s a situation we haven’t seen Joe in yet, so he’s acting differently than usual. He’s approaching Joyce as an actual human being instead of just treating her like a potential notch on his bedpost like he did Dorothy and Sarah, and Joyce herself previously, and because she’s looking for solutions to her problems instead of coming to him with the Dreaded Feelings, Joe feels that he can help her rather than listen to Danny vent about his girlfriend’s mental health and his sexuality.
Chances are that he’s still going to be the same when he’s dealing with someone who isn’t Joyce, because Joyce is fitting into an extremely narrow area where Joe can actually provide support.
The other key thing is that this is them texting, not interacting in person (and definitely not where someone else can see them interacting.) Lots of people have different behaviour/communication in different environments.
I agree. To a point. This is, at the very least, the revelation of a new facet to his character.
My only point was that at some point in his character development, I really want his problems addressed. At least if he’s going to get character development and not remain the one-note he’s been until recently.
Especially if there is to be an actual relationship with Joyce.
I agree. It would be super weird for there to be a personality change sans explanation. Particularly in this comic where the writing has always been better than that.
It would surprise me more if there was no corporal punishment in that house. “Spare the rod” and all that. She probably thinks her children are to old for that but not believing in it? Eh.
Needfudoer: “No. More. Wire. Hangers.” is a reference to Mommy Dearest, the tell-all book/movie by the daughter of Joan Crawford detailing her abusive approach to child-raising. It’s major scene in the movie, where she attacks the kid for using wire hangers (because they cause the clothing to stretch out and deform more).
Rectilinearpropogation: Needfuldoer, on the other hand, was making an abortion joke/reference–wire hangers are classically associated with the rather grisly practice of self-abortion from the pre-Roe era. She’s saying that Carol is ‘too late’ to abort Joyce, and ‘probably doesn’t believe in’ abortion, anyway.
Also, you both have ‘nyms that are annoying as hell to type out. That is all.
“Wh-what’s that? That p-pole, with straw piled around the bottom? What’s g-going on?”
“Well, it *was* going to be for Rebecca, darling, but after that word you said this morning, I’m afraid you’ll have to share.”
I think that Joe really doesn’t understand that this is a cultural problem that Joyce is facing, rather than precisely a family one. In his experience, having other people around = safe. I wonder how much of this is he’s forgetting that “trust your gut” is less applicable here than it normally would be, and how much is that he’s just going based on what worked for him, and doesn’t have a lot of ‘theory’ in dealing with people who have boundary issues.
the way that it’s safe is that the Browns need to present a front of being a good Christian family or face the potential scandal of not being a good Christian family, i’d guess. so like even though Carol is on high defcon mode, she is probably going to go for one of two things: malicious comments that only make sense as malicious comments to Joyce and Becky, or straightout pretending that everything is the way she wants it to be and enforcing those expectations of their behavior via social pressure. if Becky was her daughter, she’d be pushing her at boys.
I am…honestly not sure what the church’s stance on this is going to be. Maybe they’re just gonna pray a lot for the people involved and ignore, like, the deeper stuff going on behind-scenes that made the situation what it was, as well as their own participation in the events that led up to it. that feels most likely to me? but then i am kind of hoping that this is not quite as much of a disaster as is being foreboded.
like i guess: my own experience is that stuff like this happens to you, and the rest of the world goes on as if it hadn’t because they just can’t process it. it doesn’t fit into their schema of the way the world works, and because it doesn’t fit into the schema as soon as possible they pretend it didn’t exist. that their actions had no cause to play. that there were warning signs. because rethinking your life and the unconscious assumptions of it is harder than a lot of people care to tackle.
At this rate I’m pretty sure of two things. 1) Joyce will despise her church by the end of this weekend, and 2) the Browns’ marriage won’t survive this weekend either.
First off, Joyce and Joe bonding over parental troubles is something I never realized I always wanted.
Secondly, I think this might be the first time we’ve seen Joyce drop an S-bomb. It’s certainly the first time her mother has heard her swear, which is going to make for a very uncomfortable couple of strips down the line.
Third, poor Becky. She is clearly not comfortable in that dress. I don’t blame her; I wouldn’t be comfortable in it either (though that might just be my averaion to ankle-length skirts).
Joe: “What? I missed you saying ‘shit’ for the first time? That must have been hilarious.”
Joyce: “Said it in front of my overzealous mother who thought college was a bad influence.”
Joe: “I retract my previous statement.”
Joe actually gives good advice, I’ve noticed. I like that Joyce brings some of his more well-rounding qualities to the fore.
Also, I crack up whenever Joyce curses. Who else here remembers being that hyper-goody-goody Christian kid who never cursed, who suddenly, for whatever reason, suddenly decided to start using profanity? Or had a friend like that? Remember how awkward it sounded at first? Brings back memories…
Yup. Freshman year of college. One of my friends said to me, “Say fuck.”
I thought hard and fast – it’s just a word, I can quote a word… “Fuck.”
“Say fudge.”
“Fudge.”
“Now don’t say it anymore.”
…And I didn’t!
Used to be the other way ’round, of course: pink was masculine and blue was feminine. It’s why so many Disney girls wear blue.
Getting back to modern day, I suspect Carol deliberately picked out a pink dress to try enforcing the feminine gender role onto Becky. It… It looks kinda wrong on her, with her hair in that undercut.
What DO gentiles do in church? Popular media tells me that the priest gives a lecture, and sometimes there’s a collection bowl, but that can’t be ALL there is, can it?
A morning service on our Shabbat in the conservative (not the political meaning) synagogue I grew up with lasted somewhere between three to four hours, assuming you showed up for the very beginning (which most people didn’t to my knowledge, unless they were attending a bar/bat mitzvah); do Christian services on their Sabbath go that long? What do they fill all that time with?
Singing, mostly. Services at my dad’s church last between an hour and two hours: about 20-30 minutes of that is sermon (longer with the old pastor, the new one is much less wordy), there are two or three Bible readings, Communion every other week, and a fuckton of singing.
I don’t know about other churches, but Catholic mass for me growing up lasted an hour. You got your hymns, your apostles creed, your hail mary, reading of the scripture, the priest has his say about whatever we’re talking about that day, we shake everyone’s hands and say ‘peace be with you’ to everyone around us, we take communion, and that’s about what I remember. (Not in this order necessarily.)
Depends on the denomination, congregation, and individual pastor/priest/whatever.
All I remember from Catholic mass was droning boredom, myself. Priests seem super disengaged, in my experience. Except the Irish fella who gave my cousin’s funeral service. He seemed engaging.
It does honestly depend on the priest. My parish has had pretty good luck getting engaging priests, but they keep getting changed every three to five years. Best two were one from the Philipines and one from Mexico.
*looks up the ol’ Episcopal Book of common prayer*
– Opening Hymn and Processional
– Greeting
– Reading of the Collect
(May or may not be a hymn here)
– Reading of the Old Testament lesson
(May or may not be a hymn here)
– Reading of the Gospel lesson
(May or may not be a hymn here)
– Sermon
– Nicene Creed
– Prayers of the People and group Confessional
– The Peace (which may or may not involve hugging, dependent on the congregation)
– Hymns and Communion
– Recessional
S’what I was used to for the different churches I went to when younger. Though I do recall a one-off I went to when the communion was earlier, like around the 15 minute mark instead of 45 minute. That was a long service.
It varies from church to church. In the Catholic Church we generally have two readings from the old and or New Testament, with some hymns interspersed between them. After this the priest gives a sermon about said readings and about how they can be interpreted (allegorically, not literally) and applied to our everyday lives in order to be better people. Then we say the Our Father (rather formulaic prayer given by Jesus in the gospels for praying directly to God) and shake each other’s while saying “peace be with you”, often with a polite smile. Then we go up and receive communion, which is a waiver of bread and some watered down wine that we (Catholics) believe to in that moment be the flesh and blood of Jesus. After a few formulaic back and forths between the priest and congregation, the priest gives everyone a final blessing and we leave. This entire process lasts between 50 to 80 minutes depending on how fast or slow the priest speaks and how much he has to say. Then there is the option to go to Latin mass, which takes two hours minimum because everything takes forever in Latin. For the Orthodox Church (the eastern half of the 1054 ad split) it can take three hours as the service will be in either Greek or Church Slavonic. Most Protestant churches have some variation of this formula.
I’m not entirely sure. My family goes to church once a year on Christmas eve for our Grandmother, and it completely bores me to tears. I’ve basically learned how to sleep with my eyes open. I do remember there being a lot of hymns and a collection plate getting passed.
(it’s been like 2 decades since I attended church (besides funerals), and I was raised Catholic so not precisely the same as Joyce, BUT)
First things first, you dip your hand in a bowl of holy water at the entrance to prove that you are not in fact a vampire, and you use that hand (which has to be the right hand, unless your right hand is inoperable) to make the sign of the cross on yourself (tap your forehead, then your bellybutton, then your left nipple, then your right nipple), and find a seat. When you get to the pew (really long bench) you want, you genuflect (go down on one knee like you’re about to propose to someone, but with your head bowed a bit) and sign of the cross yourself again before you get up and slide in.
Depending on how fancy of a mass it is (read as: how much of the pews are filled), there may be a procession to start things off, where the priest, deacon, and any altar boys walk down the center aisle carrying a cross and some candles while the people sing a song. There are small books in each of the pews with scripts to the talk-and-response parts of the mass and the lyrics to songs that might be used, and there’s a little board up front with what pages to find the songs that are gonna be used at that mass, so if you don’t know the words by heart, you can refer to the book. For smaller masses, the priest might just start up at the altar, there probably aren’t altar boys scheduled, and there may or may not be a deacon. The singing generally happens anyway.
After the procession (if there is one), the priest leads everyone in sign-of-the-cross’ing again, then there’s some talk-and-response bits that involve blessings and the like, and then it’s back to singing. Then there’s a reading from the Bible, then there’s a talk/sing-and-respond bit, then another reading from the Bible, then a tiny singing bit, then a Gospel reading (that’s the first 4 books of the New Testament, which is the bit with Jesus). After that is the homily, which is the lecture thing you mentioned, though it isn’t always a lecture; sometimes it’s more like ‘a funny thing happened to me this week, so hey, God’s mysterious am I right?’, though it’s generally supposed to be tied into the Gospel reading, even if just loosely.
After the homily, everyone recites a prayer together, and then there’s some more talk-and-response bits, during which the priest turns the bread and wine into the body and blood (respectively, of course) of Christ. Then everyone says the Our Father, then there’s the sign of peace, where you shake hands with everyone around you (left, right, front, back, and diagonals (not necessarily in that order)) saying “Peace be with you” to each of them. If they’re family or a friend you can do a hug instead, maybe a brief smooch between a married couple, but generally stick to handshakes. There’s some singing here again.
So then everyone lines up to receive communion from the priest (that’s the former-bread-that’s-now-Christ’s-body. Can also be a sip of the former-wine-that’s-now-Christ’s-blood, though that’s rare unless it’s a really small mass; usually the priest and deacon have a sip each in representation of the congregation), then you sign of the cross yourself and head back to your seat, and there’s some silent prayer time. You just ate a piece of your Lord and Savior, so it’s good 1-on-1 time. Well, presumably not you-you. Generally speaking, it’s frowned on for someone not of the religion to partake in communion (though honestly, unless you’re making it incredibly obvious, no one’s gonna call you out on it with a pop quiz or anything), just make way for the people going up to communion and have your own silent prayer time of whatever sort you like.
Things start wrapping up after that, a bit more talk-and-response with imparting blessings and whatnot, and there’s a closing song, and that pretty much covers it. On a sidenote, different bits require that the congregation be sitting, standing, or kneeling (each pew has little kneeling pads that extend from the back of the row in front), unless you have physical limitations from doing so, and frankly these positions are random. I’m sure there’s some rationale somewhere why this is a standing part, this is a kneeling part, etc, but good luck figuring it out without memorization. Just watch the people who do have it memorized and follow along.
Depends on the denomination and specific church. Now I’ve not gone to Catholic mass in a long while but it usually lasts about an hour to an hour and a half. Maybe two hours, depending on the priest. The priest will usually read some hymns or stories from either the New or Old Testament that he’ll pick usually based on what he thinks is appropriate for the day and how they can apply to today. Then there’s a collection midway through to gather tithes and near the end, people who want to can go up for Communion where they receive a small unleavened wafer and some wine that’s supposed to represent Jesus’ flesh and blood. Then people shake hands with those around them and say “Peace be with you.” Followed by a second collection (at least in the churches I’ve gone to) and a final blessing before everybody can leave.
The Holy Rollers have speaking in tongues. I don’t THINK the Browns are into this, but it can get… bizarre.
More critical is that some places have open prayer calls. Time for the audience to just shout out whatever prayer they want to say for all and sundry to hear. This is primo opportunity for passive-aggressiveness.
“Dear Lord, I pray that Becky realizes the harm that her sinful ways have caused to her family and her father, and puts aside her sin and returns to Your righteousness.”
The type of church Joyce probably goes to has the typical singing to worship God, then prayer requests (announcing problems you want people to pray for, then having a group prayer) then the offering (money collection) maybe communion, if it’s that time of the month, (wine/grape juice and bread) followed the sermon or “lecture” then an altar call, where you go up front to pray if you want to.
We’ve seen her go to church once before, and the song they did was right out of the old contemporary “handbook.” And Joyce seemed quite comfortable.
And that’s also the norm for the sort of “non-denominational” church she mentioned.
At a typical Conservative service, it starts with verses from Psalms, then the daily morning prayers (blessings on the morning, some biblical passages, etc), then the Torah service (reading from the Torah, reading from the Prophets, Dvar/sermon, a few additional verses/prayers), Musaf(a repetition of part of the morning service, based on the custom of an “additional” service for Shabbat), then some concluding prayers. Note that how long this takes can vary pretty widely; 3-4 hours strikes me as long.
Depends on the church. At my church we sing, do announcements for church events, sing some more, do offering, listen to a sermon for 20-40 minutes-ish, sing some more and then hang out with each other for coffee and sometimes other treats in the foyer. Typically about an hour and a half long, sometimes more if is communion Sunday or there’s a baptism or dedication or something.
The Catholic and Episcopal and even Lutheran church experiences don’t apply here. Those are liturgical churches, they have a set pattern, a rite that they follow. They will all be using the same basic readings this Sunday and every Sunday for a three year cycle. Songs, especially the psalm for the day, should be related to the readings. This is like the readings in a Jewish service, which follow a set pattern throughout the year. No too surprising, since Christian worship grew out of Jewish liturgy.
Joyce’s church is more free form / non liturgical. Much more of whatever strikes the pastor. Sometimes just one short text (as opposed to the three at liturgical churches). No set readings for the day, so the readings can be topical or part of some multi-week lesson. Longer sermons based on whatever the pastor is into that day. Love songs to Jesus. Since it is so pastor-based, people church shop to find a pastor that they like.
In a liturgical church, the sermon would be unlikely to focus on Becky’s family situation, since it should be based on the days’ readings. Joyce’s church is more likely to focus on a matter of local import, like a member headed to jail, as a main topic.
Non-liturgical services can have somewhat more structure than that too though. (It partly depends on how much the pastor likes predictable structure, of course.) Most of the time at my husband’s church there’s a fairly predictable pattern (which, as far as I can tell, serves to give certain worship leaders something to disrupt.)
There’s a “call to worship” (normally some sort of spoken interactive prayer between the worship leader and congregation); a couple of hymns; children’s story (the kids get called up to the front & get a story/concept at their level, often somewhat related to that Sunday’s theme); another hymn; scripture reading or scripture storytelling or some sort of combination; sermon; hymn; collection; congregational prayer (a mic gets passed around and people can say what they want prayed for); and a closing.
My typical Sunday experience is: Singing, then announcements, more announcements, why are there so many announcements, then more singing. Then the sermon starts and typically ends when Pastor realizes how close to noon it is.
I can appreciated a pastor who both has so much to say and yet also a realization that people like lunch.
I have this nagging feeling that Carol has an intervention or some such thing planned for her daughter, who must be saved from evils of college and atheist friends, and God forbid: Lesbians.
It may be a good thing that Joe knows where she is going to be, in case she never comes back….or something.
I like Joe as a go to person for Joyce, as unlikely as they seem to be together.
Honestly, what Joyce really has to worry about is whether or not she’ll be allowed to return to IU. Her mother is all too ready to blame “bad influences”.
Having co-signed paperwork or not isn’t the issue… even if it was cash up front, Joyce isn’t going to be able to come up with cash up front for next semester without parental support.
Why do people think redheads look bad in pink? I think they look great in pink. I’ve seen a significant number of redhaired girls and women in pink clothes, including a gorgeous and natural redhead cosplaying Ariel in her pink dress.
So what would be the joke here, if anything? Not carpet. Paint would probably be skin/tattoos. Wall hangings, or would that be piercings/body modifications? Perhaps wallpaper?
I don’t think it’s so much the pink as it is the fact that the dress combines very short sleeves with an ankle length skirt and looks like a summer dress from two centuries ago as a result. But in general pink and red are such closely related colors, and natural redhair tends to be quite bright like pink, that it nixez any chance of a nice contrast and instead creates a weird blending effect as result of having to limited a color spectrum to human eyes. In addition, having pink and red together is too much “hot” color and not enough “cool” color.
…
Dear God I just realized how much thought I have put into color here.
Honestly, the amount of thought you’ve put into this is actually really enjoyable from my perspective (i.e., for someone NOT into fashion so I know what’s going on). But your Gravatar’s really causing a mental hiccup, because seriously, can anyone else imagine Walky being capable of this level of analysis?
Funny thing is, I generally don’t care about fashion, but when someone is wearing something that doesn’t work for them, I do tend to come up with critiques that I try to put gently. For fictional characters dressing other fictional characters, I drop my politeness filter.
I really, really want to see Joyce and Joe chatting away together in person with their new equilibrium, once Joyce is back at school. Poking fun at each other and giving good advice, Joyce smiling and Joe not being a creeper. They are decidedly good for each other.
Danny: See here the innocent blood you have spilt on the steps of Indiana.
Carol: I am guiltless, she ran I pursued.
Danny: now you would add Dina’s blood to your guilt on the steps on Indiana.
Carol: My, conscience is clear!
Danny: you can lie to your self and your congregation, you can claim that you haven’t a qualm, but you never can run from, nor hide what you’ve done from the eyes, the very eyes of Indiana!
I’m just going to watch a music video for “Hellfire” on YouTube. Creepy as it is, that’s probably my favorite Disney villain song. It’s just so good despite being so evil.
The evilness is part of what makes it a great villian song. A lot of bad guy songs make the bad guy look cool (which I don’t necessarily have a problem with) but that wouldn’t have worked with him. You can’t have a catchy “beat the good guys” song when the bad guy is reading racist.
A song showing just how effed up and evil he is just makes more sense.
With most Disney Villains, they tend to either be really cool and fun like Scar or Ursula. Or just kinda boring, like with Ratcliffe. Every time Frollo talks I want to punch him in the face.
Especially because if you look closely some Disney villains have some valid complaints or goals. Scar actually does treat the hyenas pretty well, letting them leave their ghetto and actually be treated as the lions’ equals. Gaston would be the good guy in any other Disney movie. Etc. etc. Frollo? He’s just a self-righteous bigot…kinda like Carol.
I was about seven when that movie came out, so of course I had no idea what ‘Hellfire’ was really about. I have a distinct memory of sitting confused in the theater after that song finished, looking up at my dad, and seeing him staring bug-eyed at the scene and hearing him whisper ‘Holy shit.’
Woah, did Joyce just casually swear in front of her Mom? Is that a first? Cause if it is, then that’s probably gonna fly about as well as the Hindenburg did
Five grand? No problem, we’ll have it for you in the morning. Let’s go, Elwood.
No, no! I will not take your filthy stolen money!
Well then… I guess you’re really up Shit Creek.
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues with a ruler for using that kind of language]
I beg your pardon, what did you say?
I offered to help you… You refused to take our money. Then I said: I guess you’re really up Shit Creek!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues with the ruler again]
Christ, Jake. Take it easy man.
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Elwood Blues]
Oh shit!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues]
Jesus Christ!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Elwood Blues]
Shit!
Poor Becky. She clearly isn’t comfortable in the dress. She looks so uncomfortable and constricted. Also, Joe gives good advice, but I don’t think Church will be a safe place for Joyce or Becky this Sunday.
Awwww, Carol is trying to help Becky pick up girls, but because she is a parent her sense of fashion is hideously outdated. Also, she can’t accept that Becky is already seeing someone because Dina is from outside the community….
…that’s what going on, right?
…No? …OK, sure, let’s bully the homeless, parentless girl. Way to go, Carol.
I’m pretty sure she just try to make Becky uncomfortable and send her and Joyce the message that Becky is neither welcome nor safe.
But her excuse (which is not much better) is to help Becky “restore her proper womanhood” by dressing her as “a woman should”, and of course overcompensating because of gay.
The MOST sympathetic motive I can read into it is to show the neighbours that she is taking care of the poor, parentless girl by showing her the proper way to behave.
Having a mother who was along the lines of Carol, I can’t feel much sympathy for her.
Come to think of it,maybe Carol is prepping Becky for the “conversion therapy” in the service later … It does to me have the feel of the Handmaid’s tale about it.
Well, at least Joyce didn’t say “God damn it” or something. That would’ve been a lot worse, right? So maybe Carol won’t be *super* mad…? Hey, I can hope.
Can I just say that the fact that she was texting Joe has been the best reveal in the series so far. It’s so good and is great character interaction. 🙂
Agreed. It’s the only reveal so far that I can honestly say I 100% did NOT see coming even the slightest bit but I am absolutely in love with it and so so happy it is happening.
Y’know, Joyce, cussing in front of your mother probably isn’t helpful. Of course, after yesterday’s various fiascos, I can’t see how things could get worse!
Meanwhile, we learn that Carol’s definition of ‘Sunday Best’ is fixed firmly in the 1950s!
Like others, I’m concerned that Joyce’s hope that her childhood church would automatically be a place of sanctuary will be dashed. I hope not but this is Willis and I know where his thoughts tend to go on these matters.
not as an insult to becky, just an insult to the dress. I’m sure Carol picked it out because its ‘feminine’ and as some sort of passive aggressive ‘you should act like a *real girl* who wear pink dresses and date boys’
Yup, and I’m sure she picked it BECAUSE it’s awful. I’m sure there are several just as feminine dresses that would suit her better that Carol discarded just to punish Becky.
They’re just lacy ‘feminine’ touches (at least by the orthodoxy of gender identity that Carol subscribes to). I wonder if they’re a hand-me-down that was originally intended for Joyce?
Oh my, I hope that doesn’t come back to haunt Joyce if Mama Joyce starts making some little passive-aggressive rumblings at church… She could try to stir up the congregation against Becky 🙁
I really, really want Joe to take Joyce to the local synagogue at some point (the first time that he’s been since Bar Mitzvah, in all probability) just so she can take a selfie and send it to her mother to make her head explode!
Even better would be someone taking her to the local gurdwara or masjid. A synagogue wouldn’t be shocking enough (there’s a reasonable chance that Joyce’s parents acknowledge that Jesus was Jewish.)
Joe might think of services as a safe place too. They might have been for him. Parents on best behavior. An understanding rabbi. Friends who share his troubles. No yelling. A safe, comforting ritual with familiar stories read yearly (or every third year). I don’t think this is going to be Joyce’s experience today.
I see Becky bolting from the service to avoid the pain. Joyce going with her. Carol feeling justified by that. Hank being worried about Becky. And the argument about Joyce going back to IU being resolved in about August or September.
This definitely. Churches in my experience are more of a safe place UNTIL you do something “non-christian” and then everybody and their mother look down on you, pray for you, and try to convert you. They’ll pull you up to the front to pray and you can hear their whispered prayers full of slurs and asking for you to return to the fold. I’ve heard many a tailored sermon.
And in a fundie church I imagine my experience amplified. Especially since her parents will be there, as my parents never were.
Joe talking here breaks my heart, because it means he’s gone through some terrible stuff more than just parents “yelling a lot”.
Yup, but now she’s on the other side and seeing the dark side of the faith that has given her strength up to now. And it’s already been pretty brutal (Toedad, Carol, John) and it’s only going to get worse from here on out because now she’s been labeled a “troubled girl” so the passive-aggression is about to be cranked up to 11.
I think Joyce honestly hasn’t taken into account the “until you do something” bit, because she’s never experienced it before. It’s always been a safe place, up until now, because up until now she’s never had experience with a “problem”.
Yeah I think she’s going to get quite the rude awakening…one of the main reasons I read this comic is because of the drama so I want to see whats going to happen in church, I want to see how bad it’ll get (I have no experience of this so its all new to me) but there’s a part in brain going “noooooooo’
I think its fair to say this is not going to end well
I actually like Becky in this outfit (though clearly she doesn’t). The long pink is a nice contrast to her more punk hair. It does need accessories though. My first instinct is a nice pattern sash for a belt, and some Mad Max shoulder armor for a touch more punk. However, my first instinct is rarely right. How would you guys improve Becky’s outfit?
I mean as someone who grew up in an Orthodox church called the Church of St. Peter, I did spend a lot of my time on Sunday looking at him up on the alter.
Church has been a huge part of her life, of her growing up. Everybody she knew, her parents, her friends, had a shared belief in the specialness of that building. It’s what pulls them together.
If that’s taken from her… she’ll have so little left. She’ll be in so much pain. I know a lot of people who’ve never recovered from this. They never build up a new worldview after their childhood beliefs are shattered, and end up very bitter, lost, and lonely.
They were never given the mental toolset you need in order to think for yourself, to find morality within yourself. They literally don’t know how to operate once their safe place is taken away.
I hope this isn’t where this arc is going… but I’m afraid it is. Which means Joyce will only have her college friends to help her through it.
And that’s the thing that is intentional about how she and those raised like her are raised. To be in a place where “leaving the church” or being removed from family or the church basically means starting over with nothing. You are trained to let the church be your community, your support network, your guiding philosophy, the guardians of your records, the way you’re supposed to interact with the world, and so on…
It’s the reason why Becky has been scrambling like crazy of late to build something that is new and won’t collapse like a house made of wet paper. It’s why Jocelyne is being so careful and making sure she is fully capable of independently surviving before she pulls the plug on coming out. It’s why Joyce is reeling now.
Because that all-encompassing support and safety is used as a leash to angrily yank on people who dare stray out of the sold morality or dare to be something not approved by the church leaders.
Oh, don’t agree with us anymore, think we’ve done wrong? Cool, hope you enjoy having all your former friends shun you and doing without even the most rudimentary support network and when you’re weak, we’ll send around a “worried message” willing to “welcome you back with open arms” anytime you stop that silly nonsense.
It’s a brutal system and Joyce has obviously not made the connection that her breaks with the church’s dogma on certain issues will necessitate eventually giving up this “safest space” and means that today’s sermon is going to be the direct opposite of “safest space”.
Why is Becky staring at the hanger with a look of abject terror on her face? Were threats being made before Joyce interrupted, or is this a PTSD flashback to childhood memories?
Panel 1: “If you don’t trust your parents, try to limit your interactions with them to places where there’s other people”. Oh Joe… 🙁
There’s no way that advice isn’t hard learned by painful personal experience and I have to think both about the way that Joe’s mom didn’t seem to even make an appearance for Parent’s Night and how he seemed to keep his dad in the common areas (where he proceeded to harass everyone around until slipping off to sleep with Amber’s mom) rather than going somewhere with him for a quiet dinner together.
And that’s a rough place to be. Not being able to trust your parents not to rip into you or be awful if there’s not a witness to blunt the attacks. It shouldn’t be a lesson anyone should have to learn, but I suppose that’s the cruelty of life right there.
Panel 2: “The safest place I can imagine” Oh, Joyce… 🙁 She still views church as the enriching spiritually fulfilling place it has always been for her and that view is going to be betrayed so brutally, painfully hard.
Maybe the pastor is going to go in on a rant about how hell-bound gay people and those who support them are. Maybe the pastor will openly support Toedad and try and call him a hero or blame Becky for “driving” him to it through her “sin”. Maybe it’s just going to go hard on the “duties” a “good daughter” has to her family. Maybe it’ll be the same old sermons about queers and atheists and sex, but now it just won’t have the same feeling, won’t bring the same relief. Will just feel hollow and wrong and she’ll have to think about her friends and how it hurts her to imagine them “suffering for all eternity”.
Something won’t sit right. Something won’t be safe. And she’ll lose one more tendril trying to cling to something from her past that isn’t corroded and rotted and made foul. And she’s not even going to be emotionally prepared for it when it happens.
Panel 3: And back to the empathy sad-face for Joe. Again, there’s no way this isn’t very related to personal experiences. Grandstanding and passive-aggression were probably his parents main dynamics in and around the arguing and he probably had to find his own methods for getting around that and learning to cope.
No wonder he’s shut up his emotions deep deep inside himself and convinced himself that processing them or letting him feel things is dumb and gross and bad. No wonder he tries to avoid any critical thought about interactions between genders and tries to keep everything as superficial as possible.
But hopefully this new connection will help him see that he rode it out and now he’s free and he doesn’t have to be bound by their bad mistakes anymore.
Panel 4: Aw, I love the little euphemism that Joyce uses here. Which is good because…
Panel 5: Wow, there’s so much here. Carol slamming into Becky’s room early in the morning to make sure she’s “proper”, Joyce letting slip her cursing in front of her mom who is sure to take this as more evidence that her daughter is slipping into “ungodly deviations” from her school, that dress…
I mean, there’s no way that every ounce of this ties in with the weird fundie belief that gayness is just caused by excessive confusion about “proper” gender roles and allowing one’s femininity or masculinity be derailed by Satan. It’s what caused Toedad to rant about Dina taking Becky’s womanhood. It’s what caused him to call her hair a betrayal of his family. It’s what Joyce was referring to here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/03-up-all-night-to-get-vengeance/genderidentity/
And there’s no doubt this is about forcing Becky into an extreme femininity to try and counteract the demonic spirits inhabiting her body and whatnot. I have no doubts that if Joyce did not knock right now, Carol would be forcing lipstick and makeup on her face as well.
And that Becky face… 🙁 She’s in such distress about it. There’s equally no doubt that Carol has not been ripping into her as much as she did the night before last, taking this opportunity of seclusion to bring out the knives and truly rant at her for “destroying one family and now seeking to destroy another” and so on… And after all she’s been through yesterday having to stare down the demons of her past and walk through a home that was never allowed to be truly hers at any point? It’s just heartbreaking to the extreme.
And the worst part is we know Becky, we’ve seen how she handles this. When that door opens it’ll be smiley happy Becky, wacky and full of fun and not at all betraying how much things are ripping her apart or how much awful Carol just dumped on her head.
And that last angry stare from Carol, just communicating her raw hate… even worse now because of the circumstances of the moving timeline. At least for today, this is coming off of the very recent shootings in Orlando by accident. Which means that Carol’s homophobic awfulness, while usually terrible is coming after the recent slaughter of queer folk in addition to the near murder of her daughter and her daughter’s friend.
To this, it is still more important to condemn and angrily hate. To this, it is still more important to angrily try and force Becky back into a half-sort of closet, desperate and impossible. And it makes her actions even the more monstrous than they were in the original intention.
Ok so luckily we know how Joyce turns out but even if we didn’t we can make some reasonable assumptions
Joyce has moving beyond the precepts of her upbringing by being friends with Dorothy, Ethan and Billie, people who her church and her upbringing would dictate that she shun yet would welcome Mary with open arms
We see her communicating with Joe when before she wanted to hit him (making amends perhaps?), we see her growth, we see her circle of support increasing
We know shes going to be all right and, through Joyce, Becky will be ok as well
Of course that’s the long term view, the short term view shes going to be sucking on a shit sandwich
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PISSING-OFF-MOM TWO-FER
Sarah’s gonna be breaking the big bucks outta the “please swear” jar
Becky is me when it comes to “Sunday best” =p
“SHIT ASS FUCK COCK BALLS”
“Watch your language!”
“oh sorry… stuff butt cuddle crotch nuts”
Somehow the “clean version” sounds that much dirtier~
Stuffing butts is totally filthy.
Fecal matter, rectum, copulate, penis, scrotum.
Sounds… Well… Different, at the very least.
“Motherfucking Bastard-er I mean father, illegitimate child?”
Nah, that’s wrong. It’s “illegitimate child engaging in intercourse with his mother.
OEDIPUS!
Oedipus was legitimate, though.
Outsmarted the Sphinx, killed the king in a duel despite growing up with the persistent injury from being hobbled as an infant…
Yep. That checks out. Totes legit BAMF.
Okey, I get the ‘MF’ in “BAMF”, but do we know his A was bad? Blaming Oedipus’ donkey without really knowing much about it seems kinda cheap.
das-g: Well, if the injury that hobbled him was in one of the gluteous maximus muscle…
…. wait, what? It was his ankles?
…. damn you Greeks for ruining a perfectly good literalism in a slang and language that wouldn’t exist for another couple thousand years!
yeah
“shit” “OH DAMN I SAID SHIT” “OH FUCK I SAID DAMN” AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA feedback loop
everyone explodes starting with mom
This is what happens when someone makes the no cursing rule in ring of fire.
Don’t know what shocks me most, Joyce dropping an s-bomb or the dress that Becky’s wearing
becky is me when my mama makes me dress up for something minus the resentment for my choose in a being braless and wearing a loose topped maxi dress that has a deep v neck.
now I have this image of Galasso’s mama putting him in a low-cut pink frilly dress
Awkaaaaaaaard
I predict Joe and Joyce sleeping drunk togheter soon.
Please no. That would be disastrous.
Shock twist — they just sleep.
Of course, what else.
Oooooh… so close
Guessing from Becky’s reaction that her lack of churchin’ clothes means she had to borrow something from Carol.
I would’ve originally said Princess Peach
Might’ve been something of Joyce’s; a dress she didn’t care for enough to bring to university. Carol seems to be a size or two off from Becky, but the dress fits well enough.
So very much not Becky’s color, though. She needs something a hue or shade that’s a bit off from her hair. Blue or green, maybe.
I like it. Candy corn suits her.
Er… candy corn?
It’s probably Joyce’s. They’re pretty much the same size, maybe Becky’s a little taller.
I think the suggestion would have come from Carol.
Then again, I don’t like Carol.
watch her put becky in pink bc redheads + pink traditionally dont go together
somehow
(idk it’s weird to see a redhead not carla in pink now)
Weird. It’s what’s for breakfast.
Pass the Awkward please. And can I have seconds of the Uncomfortable Silence?
exuse me doctor, could you pass the stress, I don’t have enough and it goes great with the silence as a side dish. I got the anxiety, pulp or no pulp?
I prefer pulpy anxiety, thanks much. Is anyone going to want extra Jitteriness, or the last Hateful Glare? Because, if not, I intend to finish them.
Does anyone want some of this brittle laughter? Or the last pointed glare?
I’d like to drink the last of that Pissy Attitude if no one else does.
By the way, save some room, I brought some Eye Rolls as an early dessert.
Quick, get to church! Cut the awkwardness with other people!
I have a bad feeling it’s gonna be worse when they get to the church. Anyone wanna put odds on Mom having set up a prayer vigil to ‘cure’ Becky, or something equally rage-inducing? Maybe just a public prayer for her to be forgiven for violating the Fifth Commandment (Honoring thy mother and thy giant toe)…?
Amazing.
Becky is too cute in that dress, but it does look kinda like a “mom” dress
Bonworth. Where they haven’t changed their styles in forty years.
Shit
Now Joyce has to come out of the closet in front of her mom.
What a delightful pun. Oh, that was great.
Oooh, nice one
I had a similar thought at first, but I’m pretty sure that Joyce is in the hallway, not the closet.
They’re doomed
They are indeed.
EXPERT OPINION!
Next strip, Carol drops dead from the shock of Joyce swearing.
And everybody is very sad, until they all start trying to talk about what they miss about her, and suddenly aren’t all that sad anymore.
How bad will “shit” as a swear be to Carol? I mean, at least it’s not directly related to sex.
We don’t know that for sure!
True – at least she didn’t say “Goddammit”
“Young lady! When on Earth did you begin using that language?!”
“Umm…a bit after Mr. MacIntyre pointed the rifle at us?”
*facepalm*
Joyce.
I have a spot on the scoreboard ready for you, Joyce.
Scorecard or bingo card?
( Or bongo card… )
If it were cussword bingo, I think Sarah already won.
…hits the fan.
This is not specific to every guy of course but…if you want help from a guy then be direct, say what sort of help you want and the guy will then give the best advice he can
This is what men do (again not being specific) we want to be problem solvers, heroes even
We solve a problem we feel good, the hearts a good way to mans stomach but the egos even better
Joe especially seems to respond well to directness.
It’s also a subject he knows a thing to two about, unfortunately for him.
Yup. His backstory just got more sad. “they yell a lot” seem to contain some nuances.
Oh Joe and Joyce you have know idea how wrong you are about church. Also, that’s another two things for her mom to be pissed about. Shit it right.
Yeah, that’s what I’m anticipating too. ADVENTURES
That “it” is supposed to be an “is”. Stupid mobile device auto filling words!!!!
Although “shit it right” somehow seems it funnier.
I have faith in the alternate universe version of someone we never actually met but heard was a pretty nice guy.
This is…a genuinely heartwarming interaction. Joe, you BETTER not immediately revert to creepy harassy-y horndog.
Joyce, oh sweet baby, your certainty that church is the safest place in the world is so sweet and so naive. Brace yourself.
The fuck is Becky wearing?
Oh god…I hope Momma Brown didn’t hear what her baby girl just let slip…
This is the first time Joyce has accidentally let a swear slip in front of her mom isn’t it?
The old alt text was right!
Old?
Now that they’ve gotten to know each other (and had that terrible date), I actually don’t see Joe going back to creepily harassing her. She’s not just some nameless girl he’s trying to sleep with anymore, she’s a friend of his, or at least appears to be.
That said, if he end up getting a crush on her, he may temporarily revert back to that from the sheer panic of realizing that his dick caught feelings
Right, but I mean girls other than Joyce too. It doesn’t count if he’s only not creeping on her because now they’re friends, he has to actually develop a respect for women.
Honestly, I hope he does revert. I’d much rather see that dealt with and addressed as a problem than just switch over to supportive friend (or even relationship) without getting to see some conflict over the change. Growth is great. But it doesn’t come without facing the problems.
This really isn’t that out of there. We aren’t skipping a crucial beat in his character arc, we’re seeing him put in a new situation that fits with how he’s acted previously, and he probably won’t stop being Joe with everyone else.
Joyce is someone he’s uninterested in for sex, and she’s directly asking him for solutions for his problems. That’s a situation we haven’t seen Joe in yet, so he’s acting differently than usual. He’s approaching Joyce as an actual human being instead of just treating her like a potential notch on his bedpost like he did Dorothy and Sarah, and Joyce herself previously, and because she’s looking for solutions to her problems instead of coming to him with the Dreaded Feelings, Joe feels that he can help her rather than listen to Danny vent about his girlfriend’s mental health and his sexuality.
Chances are that he’s still going to be the same when he’s dealing with someone who isn’t Joyce, because Joyce is fitting into an extremely narrow area where Joe can actually provide support.
The other key thing is that this is them texting, not interacting in person (and definitely not where someone else can see them interacting.) Lots of people have different behaviour/communication in different environments.
I agree. To a point. This is, at the very least, the revelation of a new facet to his character.
My only point was that at some point in his character development, I really want his problems addressed. At least if he’s going to get character development and not remain the one-note he’s been until recently.
Especially if there is to be an actual relationship with Joyce.
I agree. It would be super weird for there to be a personality change sans explanation. Particularly in this comic where the writing has always been better than that.
For clarity, like Shiro I am also talking about other ladies. I don’t find his behavior with Joyce jarring.
I like that wording at the end. “His dick caught feelings”. lol. Can I use that?
Joyce said “shit” in front of her mother!
Joyce’s mom has already had enough of this, and now she hears her daughter saying “SHIT”?
If Joyce and Becky have seen “Mommy Dearest”, then they know that coat hanger is sign to get the fuck out of there.
Carol’s way too late (early?) with the hanger, and she probably doesn’t believe in that anyway.
It would surprise me more if there was no corporal punishment in that house. “Spare the rod” and all that. She probably thinks her children are to old for that but not believing in it? Eh.
We have a generational confusion going on here.
Needfudoer: “No. More. Wire. Hangers.” is a reference to Mommy Dearest, the tell-all book/movie by the daughter of Joan Crawford detailing her abusive approach to child-raising. It’s major scene in the movie, where she attacks the kid for using wire hangers (because they cause the clothing to stretch out and deform more).
Rectilinearpropogation: Needfuldoer, on the other hand, was making an abortion joke/reference–wire hangers are classically associated with the rather grisly practice of self-abortion from the pre-Roe era. She’s saying that Carol is ‘too late’ to abort Joyce, and ‘probably doesn’t believe in’ abortion, anyway.
Also, you both have ‘nyms that are annoying as hell to type out. That is all.
Something tells me Joyce’s text describing church as “the safest place I can imagine” is a giant whoopass piece of foreshadowing of how wrong she is.
I think you may be very right.
“Wh-what’s that? That p-pole, with straw piled around the bottom? What’s g-going on?”
“Well, it *was* going to be for Rebecca, darling, but after that word you said this morning, I’m afraid you’ll have to share.”
I can just see her imagination making things in the church feel much worse, Disney style.
Problem: Church’s are public in some ways, but not in others. Like, I’m not convinced this isn’t going to be an echo chamber instead of a safe space.
I think that Joe really doesn’t understand that this is a cultural problem that Joyce is facing, rather than precisely a family one. In his experience, having other people around = safe. I wonder how much of this is he’s forgetting that “trust your gut” is less applicable here than it normally would be, and how much is that he’s just going based on what worked for him, and doesn’t have a lot of ‘theory’ in dealing with people who have boundary issues.
the way that it’s safe is that the Browns need to present a front of being a good Christian family or face the potential scandal of not being a good Christian family, i’d guess. so like even though Carol is on high defcon mode, she is probably going to go for one of two things: malicious comments that only make sense as malicious comments to Joyce and Becky, or straightout pretending that everything is the way she wants it to be and enforcing those expectations of their behavior via social pressure. if Becky was her daughter, she’d be pushing her at boys.
I am…honestly not sure what the church’s stance on this is going to be. Maybe they’re just gonna pray a lot for the people involved and ignore, like, the deeper stuff going on behind-scenes that made the situation what it was, as well as their own participation in the events that led up to it. that feels most likely to me? but then i am kind of hoping that this is not quite as much of a disaster as is being foreboded.
like i guess: my own experience is that stuff like this happens to you, and the rest of the world goes on as if it hadn’t because they just can’t process it. it doesn’t fit into their schema of the way the world works, and because it doesn’t fit into the schema as soon as possible they pretend it didn’t exist. that their actions had no cause to play. that there were warning signs. because rethinking your life and the unconscious assumptions of it is harder than a lot of people care to tackle.
welp she’s gonna be in huuuuuge trouble now
Time to get out the soap. 😛
At this rate I’m pretty sure of two things. 1) Joyce will despise her church by the end of this weekend, and 2) the Browns’ marriage won’t survive this weekend either.
let’s hope you are right, don’t think i can stand seeing more carol stressing her own daughter out
wait, is it just me or did carol’s hair suddenly get short? did she cut her hair the day before?
First off, Joyce and Joe bonding over parental troubles is something I never realized I always wanted.
Secondly, I think this might be the first time we’ve seen Joyce drop an S-bomb. It’s certainly the first time her mother has heard her swear, which is going to make for a very uncomfortable couple of strips down the line.
Third, poor Becky. She is clearly not comfortable in that dress. I don’t blame her; I wouldn’t be comfortable in it either (though that might just be my averaion to ankle-length skirts).
I feel so horrible for Becky right now. FUCK
I do believe this is Joyce’s first “shit” is it not?
Yes.
*wipes away tear* Our baby’s growing up!
Too bad all Mike now has is a nickel.
SHE’S BEEN HOLDING IT IN FOR HOW MANY YEARS?!?
Only a few weeks
That’s not healthy. Get her a laxative.
Carol lend her one of the colors that tend to clash with readheads… damn…
At this point, I wouldn’t put it past her to specifically pick out that dress for Becky just to be a passive-aggressive asshat.
Carol’s probably going to burn it at the end of the day anyway.
Are “readhats” the students of Indiana University which have classes in Read Hall?
Oops.
Joyce said the s-word. Is Joe still on the line to hear this?
They’re texting, not talking.
Oops right. 😶
Joe: “What? I missed you saying ‘shit’ for the first time? That must have been hilarious.”
Joyce: “Said it in front of my overzealous mother who thought college was a bad influence.”
Joe: “I retract my previous statement.”
I am SO looking forward to seeing Joyce and Becky be around their church members.
Will they REALLY have a few hours free from passive agression and grandstanding? time will tell!
I think Joyce is gonna be rethinking the whole “church is a safe place” thing soon.
Becky does not exactly look comfortable in that dress does she?
Also I wonder if Carol just heard Joyce swear. Cuz if so, well… shit indeed.
dammit
i love them
It took me a bit to realize that Carol probably heard Joyce’s reaction at the end.
…I think Joyce’s reaction says it all there.
Joe actually gives good advice, I’ve noticed. I like that Joyce brings some of his more well-rounding qualities to the fore.
Also, I crack up whenever Joyce curses. Who else here remembers being that hyper-goody-goody Christian kid who never cursed, who suddenly, for whatever reason, suddenly decided to start using profanity? Or had a friend like that? Remember how awkward it sounded at first? Brings back memories…
Yup. Freshman year of college. One of my friends said to me, “Say fuck.”
I thought hard and fast – it’s just a word, I can quote a word… “Fuck.”
“Say fudge.”
“Fudge.”
“Now don’t say it anymore.”
…And I didn’t!
I thought “shut up” was the s-word for an embarrassingly long time.
I thought is was one word.
Joyce is just speaking in tongues, gettin’ ready for church.
“Shit! Fistfuck! Peckersnot!”, yells Joyce at the top of her lungs.
“Hallelujah! I think it’s Aramaic”, says the Pastor
Huh, I forgot Joe was Jewish. I’m not really sure how to feel about him actually being a supportive friend, so we’ll see where this goes.
Joe IS a supportive friend. He’s just got a bit of a one-track mind and avoids certain topics. You can’t talk to everyone about everything.
I’ve only ever seen him talk to Danny and not take him very seriously, so I don’t know anything else about him.
Why does everyone else get to wear normal-looking clothes? Why is it so PINK?
Because Carol sort of knows how well redheads wear pink?
Pink is “traditionally” (from the late 1890s) a feminine colour. Blue is for boys.
Maybe Carol’s theory is that if Becky wears girly clothes, it will change her.
Used to be the other way ’round, of course: pink was masculine and blue was feminine. It’s why so many Disney girls wear blue.
Getting back to modern day, I suspect Carol deliberately picked out a pink dress to try enforcing the feminine gender role onto Becky. It… It looks kinda wrong on her, with her hair in that undercut.
Now that you mention it, it’s a wonder she isn’t also having Becky cover up that haircut as well.
What DO gentiles do in church? Popular media tells me that the priest gives a lecture, and sometimes there’s a collection bowl, but that can’t be ALL there is, can it?
A morning service on our Shabbat in the conservative (not the political meaning) synagogue I grew up with lasted somewhere between three to four hours, assuming you showed up for the very beginning (which most people didn’t to my knowledge, unless they were attending a bar/bat mitzvah); do Christian services on their Sabbath go that long? What do they fill all that time with?
Singing, mostly. Services at my dad’s church last between an hour and two hours: about 20-30 minutes of that is sermon (longer with the old pastor, the new one is much less wordy), there are two or three Bible readings, Communion every other week, and a fuckton of singing.
I don’t know about other churches, but Catholic mass for me growing up lasted an hour. You got your hymns, your apostles creed, your hail mary, reading of the scripture, the priest has his say about whatever we’re talking about that day, we shake everyone’s hands and say ‘peace be with you’ to everyone around us, we take communion, and that’s about what I remember. (Not in this order necessarily.)
Depends on the denomination, congregation, and individual pastor/priest/whatever.
All I remember from Catholic mass was droning boredom, myself. Priests seem super disengaged, in my experience. Except the Irish fella who gave my cousin’s funeral service. He seemed engaging.
It does honestly depend on the priest. My parish has had pretty good luck getting engaging priests, but they keep getting changed every three to five years. Best two were one from the Philipines and one from Mexico.
*looks up the ol’ Episcopal Book of common prayer*
– Opening Hymn and Processional
– Greeting
– Reading of the Collect
(May or may not be a hymn here)
– Reading of the Old Testament lesson
(May or may not be a hymn here)
– Reading of the Gospel lesson
(May or may not be a hymn here)
– Sermon
– Nicene Creed
– Prayers of the People and group Confessional
– The Peace (which may or may not involve hugging, dependent on the congregation)
– Hymns and Communion
– Recessional
S’what I was used to for the different churches I went to when younger. Though I do recall a one-off I went to when the communion was earlier, like around the 15 minute mark instead of 45 minute. That was a long service.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206224444554901&set=a.1061824910709.2010762.1378543083&type=3 <- Whereas if you visit a temple in Japan, this is all that the divine expects you to do.
Ah yes Episcopalian ism, I went to an Episcopal church for a decade or so. I cannot stand how scripted it all is.
It varies from church to church. In the Catholic Church we generally have two readings from the old and or New Testament, with some hymns interspersed between them. After this the priest gives a sermon about said readings and about how they can be interpreted (allegorically, not literally) and applied to our everyday lives in order to be better people. Then we say the Our Father (rather formulaic prayer given by Jesus in the gospels for praying directly to God) and shake each other’s while saying “peace be with you”, often with a polite smile. Then we go up and receive communion, which is a waiver of bread and some watered down wine that we (Catholics) believe to in that moment be the flesh and blood of Jesus. After a few formulaic back and forths between the priest and congregation, the priest gives everyone a final blessing and we leave. This entire process lasts between 50 to 80 minutes depending on how fast or slow the priest speaks and how much he has to say. Then there is the option to go to Latin mass, which takes two hours minimum because everything takes forever in Latin. For the Orthodox Church (the eastern half of the 1054 ad split) it can take three hours as the service will be in either Greek or Church Slavonic. Most Protestant churches have some variation of this formula.
I’m not entirely sure. My family goes to church once a year on Christmas eve for our Grandmother, and it completely bores me to tears. I’ve basically learned how to sleep with my eyes open. I do remember there being a lot of hymns and a collection plate getting passed.
(it’s been like 2 decades since I attended church (besides funerals), and I was raised Catholic so not precisely the same as Joyce, BUT)
First things first, you dip your hand in a bowl of holy water at the entrance to prove that you are not in fact a vampire, and you use that hand (which has to be the right hand, unless your right hand is inoperable) to make the sign of the cross on yourself (tap your forehead, then your bellybutton, then your left nipple, then your right nipple), and find a seat. When you get to the pew (really long bench) you want, you genuflect (go down on one knee like you’re about to propose to someone, but with your head bowed a bit) and sign of the cross yourself again before you get up and slide in.
Depending on how fancy of a mass it is (read as: how much of the pews are filled), there may be a procession to start things off, where the priest, deacon, and any altar boys walk down the center aisle carrying a cross and some candles while the people sing a song. There are small books in each of the pews with scripts to the talk-and-response parts of the mass and the lyrics to songs that might be used, and there’s a little board up front with what pages to find the songs that are gonna be used at that mass, so if you don’t know the words by heart, you can refer to the book. For smaller masses, the priest might just start up at the altar, there probably aren’t altar boys scheduled, and there may or may not be a deacon. The singing generally happens anyway.
After the procession (if there is one), the priest leads everyone in sign-of-the-cross’ing again, then there’s some talk-and-response bits that involve blessings and the like, and then it’s back to singing. Then there’s a reading from the Bible, then there’s a talk/sing-and-respond bit, then another reading from the Bible, then a tiny singing bit, then a Gospel reading (that’s the first 4 books of the New Testament, which is the bit with Jesus). After that is the homily, which is the lecture thing you mentioned, though it isn’t always a lecture; sometimes it’s more like ‘a funny thing happened to me this week, so hey, God’s mysterious am I right?’, though it’s generally supposed to be tied into the Gospel reading, even if just loosely.
After the homily, everyone recites a prayer together, and then there’s some more talk-and-response bits, during which the priest turns the bread and wine into the body and blood (respectively, of course) of Christ. Then everyone says the Our Father, then there’s the sign of peace, where you shake hands with everyone around you (left, right, front, back, and diagonals (not necessarily in that order)) saying “Peace be with you” to each of them. If they’re family or a friend you can do a hug instead, maybe a brief smooch between a married couple, but generally stick to handshakes. There’s some singing here again.
So then everyone lines up to receive communion from the priest (that’s the former-bread-that’s-now-Christ’s-body. Can also be a sip of the former-wine-that’s-now-Christ’s-blood, though that’s rare unless it’s a really small mass; usually the priest and deacon have a sip each in representation of the congregation), then you sign of the cross yourself and head back to your seat, and there’s some silent prayer time. You just ate a piece of your Lord and Savior, so it’s good 1-on-1 time. Well, presumably not you-you. Generally speaking, it’s frowned on for someone not of the religion to partake in communion (though honestly, unless you’re making it incredibly obvious, no one’s gonna call you out on it with a pop quiz or anything), just make way for the people going up to communion and have your own silent prayer time of whatever sort you like.
Things start wrapping up after that, a bit more talk-and-response with imparting blessings and whatnot, and there’s a closing song, and that pretty much covers it. On a sidenote, different bits require that the congregation be sitting, standing, or kneeling (each pew has little kneeling pads that extend from the back of the row in front), unless you have physical limitations from doing so, and frankly these positions are random. I’m sure there’s some rationale somewhere why this is a standing part, this is a kneeling part, etc, but good luck figuring it out without memorization. Just watch the people who do have it memorized and follow along.
Depends on the denomination and specific church. Now I’ve not gone to Catholic mass in a long while but it usually lasts about an hour to an hour and a half. Maybe two hours, depending on the priest. The priest will usually read some hymns or stories from either the New or Old Testament that he’ll pick usually based on what he thinks is appropriate for the day and how they can apply to today. Then there’s a collection midway through to gather tithes and near the end, people who want to can go up for Communion where they receive a small unleavened wafer and some wine that’s supposed to represent Jesus’ flesh and blood. Then people shake hands with those around them and say “Peace be with you.” Followed by a second collection (at least in the churches I’ve gone to) and a final blessing before everybody can leave.
The Holy Rollers have speaking in tongues. I don’t THINK the Browns are into this, but it can get… bizarre.
More critical is that some places have open prayer calls. Time for the audience to just shout out whatever prayer they want to say for all and sundry to hear. This is primo opportunity for passive-aggressiveness.
“Dear Lord, I pray that Becky realizes the harm that her sinful ways have caused to her family and her father, and puts aside her sin and returns to Your righteousness.”
No hand raising in her previous church thing, so probably not. Well, unless she wasn’t doing it because no one else was–it wasn’t her church.
The type of church Joyce probably goes to has the typical singing to worship God, then prayer requests (announcing problems you want people to pray for, then having a group prayer) then the offering (money collection) maybe communion, if it’s that time of the month, (wine/grape juice and bread) followed the sermon or “lecture” then an altar call, where you go up front to pray if you want to.
We’ve seen her go to church once before, and the song they did was right out of the old contemporary “handbook.” And Joyce seemed quite comfortable.
And that’s also the norm for the sort of “non-denominational” church she mentioned.
What goes on in that 3-4 hours?
IIRC there were 3 services on the Sunday – communion at 9am, morning service at 11am and the 6pm service. About a hour’s length.
I was a choir-boy in the Church of England, and this is bring back a lot of memories. Mostly of music. Can’t remember a single prayer or sermon.
Damn you Willis, I’ve now got Hills of the North running through my head.
At a typical Conservative service, it starts with verses from Psalms, then the daily morning prayers (blessings on the morning, some biblical passages, etc), then the Torah service (reading from the Torah, reading from the Prophets, Dvar/sermon, a few additional verses/prayers), Musaf(a repetition of part of the morning service, based on the custom of an “additional” service for Shabbat), then some concluding prayers. Note that how long this takes can vary pretty widely; 3-4 hours strikes me as long.
Depends on the church. At my church we sing, do announcements for church events, sing some more, do offering, listen to a sermon for 20-40 minutes-ish, sing some more and then hang out with each other for coffee and sometimes other treats in the foyer. Typically about an hour and a half long, sometimes more if is communion Sunday or there’s a baptism or dedication or something.
The Catholic and Episcopal and even Lutheran church experiences don’t apply here. Those are liturgical churches, they have a set pattern, a rite that they follow. They will all be using the same basic readings this Sunday and every Sunday for a three year cycle. Songs, especially the psalm for the day, should be related to the readings. This is like the readings in a Jewish service, which follow a set pattern throughout the year. No too surprising, since Christian worship grew out of Jewish liturgy.
Joyce’s church is more free form / non liturgical. Much more of whatever strikes the pastor. Sometimes just one short text (as opposed to the three at liturgical churches). No set readings for the day, so the readings can be topical or part of some multi-week lesson. Longer sermons based on whatever the pastor is into that day. Love songs to Jesus. Since it is so pastor-based, people church shop to find a pastor that they like.
In a liturgical church, the sermon would be unlikely to focus on Becky’s family situation, since it should be based on the days’ readings. Joyce’s church is more likely to focus on a matter of local import, like a member headed to jail, as a main topic.
Non-liturgical services can have somewhat more structure than that too though. (It partly depends on how much the pastor likes predictable structure, of course.) Most of the time at my husband’s church there’s a fairly predictable pattern (which, as far as I can tell, serves to give certain worship leaders something to disrupt.)
There’s a “call to worship” (normally some sort of spoken interactive prayer between the worship leader and congregation); a couple of hymns; children’s story (the kids get called up to the front & get a story/concept at their level, often somewhat related to that Sunday’s theme); another hymn; scripture reading or scripture storytelling or some sort of combination; sermon; hymn; collection; congregational prayer (a mic gets passed around and people can say what they want prayed for); and a closing.
My typical Sunday experience is: Singing, then announcements, more announcements, why are there so many announcements, then more singing. Then the sermon starts and typically ends when Pastor realizes how close to noon it is.
I can appreciated a pastor who both has so much to say and yet also a realization that people like lunch.
That seems long, even for a Conservative service. Do they just take a while to do things or?
(Adding in the fact that there’s not exactly a lot of room for say, a programmed sermon, since it’s just sequential).
… I have to assume that dress is Carol’s combination of punishment/feminize her back to hetero ville plan for Becky.
Good goddamn
Purple would look so much better on her. And that’s a “feminine” color, right?
I have this nagging feeling that Carol has an intervention or some such thing planned for her daughter, who must be saved from evils of college and atheist friends, and God forbid: Lesbians.
It may be a good thing that Joe knows where she is going to be, in case she never comes back….or something.
I like Joe as a go to person for Joyce, as unlikely as they seem to be together.
Honestly, what Joyce really has to worry about is whether or not she’ll be allowed to return to IU. Her mother is all too ready to blame “bad influences”.
Carol is one of three adults who possibly have any say in that decision. (Assuming she co-signed any financial paperwork.)
We already know where Joyce stands, she wanted to go back Saturday afternoon. The question is whether she’d stand up to her own mother.
Hank would give either side 2/3 majority.
Having co-signed paperwork or not isn’t the issue… even if it was cash up front, Joyce isn’t going to be able to come up with cash up front for next semester without parental support.
Why do people think redheads look bad in pink? I think they look great in pink. I’ve seen a significant number of redhaired girls and women in pink clothes, including a gorgeous and natural redhead cosplaying Ariel in her pink dress.
So what would be the joke here, if anything? Not carpet. Paint would probably be skin/tattoos. Wall hangings, or would that be piercings/body modifications? Perhaps wallpaper?
I don’t think it’s so much the pink as it is the fact that the dress combines very short sleeves with an ankle length skirt and looks like a summer dress from two centuries ago as a result. But in general pink and red are such closely related colors, and natural redhair tends to be quite bright like pink, that it nixez any chance of a nice contrast and instead creates a weird blending effect as result of having to limited a color spectrum to human eyes. In addition, having pink and red together is too much “hot” color and not enough “cool” color.
…
Dear God I just realized how much thought I have put into color here.
Honestly at first I thought that was what she slept in.
It really does look like a nightgown.
There are warm and cool pinks and reds, though. It’s really a matter of choosing the right pink.
And yeah, this dress is awful on her, but this old myth of ‘redheads shouldn’t wear pink’ is annoying.
Honestly, the amount of thought you’ve put into this is actually really enjoyable from my perspective (i.e., for someone NOT into fashion so I know what’s going on). But your Gravatar’s really causing a mental hiccup, because seriously, can anyone else imagine Walky being capable of this level of analysis?
Funny thing is, I generally don’t care about fashion, but when someone is wearing something that doesn’t work for them, I do tend to come up with critiques that I try to put gently. For fictional characters dressing other fictional characters, I drop my politeness filter.
It could be worse – at least her hair is orangey-red rather than Ruth-red, to provide at least a little bit of contrast.
For me, it’s less that they look bad in pink, but that colors like blue and green look so good
Just run with it, Joyce. Just friggin’ run with it.
Just run would be my advice.
Hell with that.
…gentiles?
He is Jewish.
“People who are not Jews.”
Although you haven’t lived until you’ve had someone misread “Gentiles” as “genitals” in a church.
That would be a great day.
“Congratulations, you’ve bought yourself several hours free of grandstanding and most forms of passive-agression”
Uhm they’re going to a fundie church, so, Nope, the opposite actually XD / DX
Oh Joe, you are so out of your depth here.
But he is still trying, bless his heart.
I really, really want to see Joyce and Joe chatting away together in person with their new equilibrium, once Joyce is back at school. Poking fun at each other and giving good advice, Joyce smiling and Joe not being a creeper. They are decidedly good for each other.
This. I also want to see the reactions from everyone else when they see this new dynamic for the first time.
Sarah is going to be very, very suspicious of such a thing.
Im just waiting for Carol to kill Becky at I.U
Danny: See here the innocent blood you have spilt on the steps of Indiana.
Carol: I am guiltless, she ran I pursued.
Danny: now you would add Dina’s blood to your guilt on the steps on Indiana.
Carol: My, conscience is clear!
Danny: you can lie to your self and your congregation, you can claim that you haven’t a qualm, but you never can run from, nor hide what you’ve done from the eyes, the very eyes of Indiana!
The Disney version of the Hunchback of Notre Dame? And Danny as the archdeacon?
Carol: I should have known you’d risk your life to save that Lesbian witch, just as your own mother died trying to save you.
Joyce: what?
Carla: Now I’m going to do what I should have done, 17 years ago!
They both fall of I.U roof
Becky: Hang on
Carla: and he shall smite the wicked and plunge them into the fiery pit!
Roof collapse under Carol, you know the drill, Joyce falls…caught by Dina.
Yes I realize I switched up the identities a bit.
Well, now I have to watch Hunchback of Notre Dame. Thankfully it’s on Netflix.
I’m just going to watch a music video for “Hellfire” on YouTube. Creepy as it is, that’s probably my favorite Disney villain song. It’s just so good despite being so evil.
The evilness is part of what makes it a great villian song. A lot of bad guy songs make the bad guy look cool (which I don’t necessarily have a problem with) but that wouldn’t have worked with him. You can’t have a catchy “beat the good guys” song when the bad guy is reading racist.
A song showing just how effed up and evil he is just makes more sense.
Reading should be “raging”.
Reading racist sounds like the worst Reading Rainbow parody ever.
With most Disney Villains, they tend to either be really cool and fun like Scar or Ursula. Or just kinda boring, like with Ratcliffe. Every time Frollo talks I want to punch him in the face.
Especially because if you look closely some Disney villains have some valid complaints or goals. Scar actually does treat the hyenas pretty well, letting them leave their ghetto and actually be treated as the lions’ equals. Gaston would be the good guy in any other Disney movie. Etc. etc. Frollo? He’s just a self-righteous bigot…kinda like Carol.
I was about seven when that movie came out, so of course I had no idea what ‘Hellfire’ was really about. I have a distinct memory of sitting confused in the theater after that song finished, looking up at my dad, and seeing him staring bug-eyed at the scene and hearing him whisper ‘Holy shit.’
Ah, Disney.
Sadly the terrible terrible sequal is also on Netflix
Doesn’t mean Shiro has to watch it.
Or Mulan II, for that matter.
It’s really underrated. I honestly think it’s one of the best of the Disney Renaissance.
Woah, did Joyce just casually swear in front of her Mom? Is that a first? Cause if it is, then that’s probably gonna fly about as well as the Hindenburg did
Well, she was behaving nd a door, so technically…
…yeah, she swore in front of her Mum
Typos have gotten weird in the swipe era.
I think it’s her first s-bomb too.
I imagine she still struggles with an f-bomb though.
Did Ms Brown just supervise Becky getting dressed? Was she watching the entire time? Or is the uncomfortable Becky face a reaction to something else?
Could be a reaction to the awkward resulting from Joyce’s comment.
More likely to seeing herself in a dress again. Not her attire of choice.
And you just know there were some snipes about her hair. “This dress will look lovely on you, it would have been even better with long hair.”
“You know, that’s almost exactly what my dad said when he kidnapp…”
“There, there dear. I’m sure this will help you catch the eye of a nice young man in church.”
“I’m a lesbi…”
“We will pray for you”
“I don’t think God would let me cheat on my atheist girlfriend studying the evolution of birds from dinosaurs.”
I can see her saying it, too… And in that moment, we found out exactly where Joyce got her ‘rebooting’ face.
Religion and swearing, always funny
Five grand? No problem, we’ll have it for you in the morning. Let’s go, Elwood.
No, no! I will not take your filthy stolen money!
Well then… I guess you’re really up Shit Creek.
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues with a ruler for using that kind of language]
I beg your pardon, what did you say?
I offered to help you… You refused to take our money. Then I said: I guess you’re really up Shit Creek!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues with the ruler again]
Christ, Jake. Take it easy man.
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Elwood Blues]
Oh shit!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues]
Jesus Christ!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Elwood Blues]
Shit!
Oh man it’s been too long since I’ve seen Blues Brothers.
And it hasn’t been long enough since I’ve seen Blues Brothers 2000.
Poor Becky. She clearly isn’t comfortable in the dress. She looks so uncomfortable and constricted. Also, Joe gives good advice, but I don’t think Church will be a safe place for Joyce or Becky this Sunday.
Awwww, Carol is trying to help Becky pick up girls, but because she is a parent her sense of fashion is hideously outdated. Also, she can’t accept that Becky is already seeing someone because Dina is from outside the community….
…that’s what going on, right?
…No? …OK, sure, let’s bully the homeless, parentless girl. Way to go, Carol.
Not sure if Carol – who’s fairly well deluded at this point – is trying to hide Becky’s gayness or convert her.
In any case, as you say, Carol is bullying Becky.
I’m pretty sure she just try to make Becky uncomfortable and send her and Joyce the message that Becky is neither welcome nor safe.
But her excuse (which is not much better) is to help Becky “restore her proper womanhood” by dressing her as “a woman should”, and of course overcompensating because of gay.
The MOST sympathetic motive I can read into it is to show the neighbours that she is taking care of the poor, parentless girl by showing her the proper way to behave.
Having a mother who was along the lines of Carol, I can’t feel much sympathy for her.
Come to think of it,maybe Carol is prepping Becky for the “conversion therapy” in the service later … It does to me have the feel of the Handmaid’s tale about it.
Joyce has really got the hang of cursing.
Well, at least Joyce didn’t say “God damn it” or something. That would’ve been a lot worse, right? So maybe Carol won’t be *super* mad…? Hey, I can hope.
My thoughts exactly. She’d probably get in more trouble for saying that.
Can I just say that the fact that she was texting Joe has been the best reveal in the series so far. It’s so good and is great character interaction. 🙂
Agreed. It’s the only reveal so far that I can honestly say I 100% did NOT see coming even the slightest bit but I am absolutely in love with it and so so happy it is happening.
Props to Willis for foreshadowing it basically only once – when Joyce texts Joe right after their class together.
It’s certainly good to see more Joe when he isn’t on the prowl for more tail. I think it’s been awesome in general.
Take not Becky, another data point for Dina.
*note
Y’know, Joyce, cussing in front of your mother probably isn’t helpful. Of course, after yesterday’s various fiascos, I can’t see how things could get worse!
Meanwhile, we learn that Carol’s definition of ‘Sunday Best’ is fixed firmly in the 1950s!
Like others, I’m concerned that Joyce’s hope that her childhood church would automatically be a place of sanctuary will be dashed. I hope not but this is Willis and I know where his thoughts tend to go on these matters.
1950’s, try 1850’s, just throw a bonnet on her.
Okay, that “Shit” at the end there made me laugh out loud. Well done, Willis.
Quick Joyce, pretend you said ‘Shoot’! Or… what words sound like ‘shit’?
that dress looks so awful on becky
not as an insult to becky, just an insult to the dress. I’m sure Carol picked it out because its ‘feminine’ and as some sort of passive aggressive ‘you should act like a *real girl* who wear pink dresses and date boys’
ugh
Yup, and I’m sure she picked it BECAUSE it’s awful. I’m sure there are several just as feminine dresses that would suit her better that Carol discarded just to punish Becky.
ugh indeed
Is Joe Jewish? Is that why he called her a Gentile?
Also that St Peter joke is actually pretty funny
Yes! Rosenthal is a p common Jewish name, as I understand it.
Best. Hovertext. EVER.
GASP she said a swear!
Poor, deluded Carol. Putting Becky in a pink, demure, chaste dress won’t change her.
Way not being weird, Carol
i personally type on phone with my thumbs
Fission Mailed!
Do the triangles at the bottom of the dress represent the fire that awaits her, snowy mountains, or what?
They’re just lacy ‘feminine’ touches (at least by the orthodoxy of gender identity that Carol subscribes to). I wonder if they’re a hand-me-down that was originally intended for Joyce?
Oh my, I hope that doesn’t come back to haunt Joyce if Mama Joyce starts making some little passive-aggressive rumblings at church… She could try to stir up the congregation against Becky 🙁
I really, really want Joe to take Joyce to the local synagogue at some point (the first time that he’s been since Bar Mitzvah, in all probability) just so she can take a selfie and send it to her mother to make her head explode!
Even better would be someone taking her to the local gurdwara or masjid. A synagogue wouldn’t be shocking enough (there’s a reasonable chance that Joyce’s parents acknowledge that Jesus was Jewish.)
JOYCE SAYS SHIT CONFIRMED
Mrs Brown just heard her daughter cuss- I wonder how well that will play out.
“My God,Joyce, did you swear?!”
“Of course not! I said Shih..Tzu…”
“Dogs, Mom. Dogs are cute.”
I love love LOVE this interaction with Joe and Joye.
Joe might think of services as a safe place too. They might have been for him. Parents on best behavior. An understanding rabbi. Friends who share his troubles. No yelling. A safe, comforting ritual with familiar stories read yearly (or every third year). I don’t think this is going to be Joyce’s experience today.
I see Becky bolting from the service to avoid the pain. Joyce going with her. Carol feeling justified by that. Hank being worried about Becky. And the argument about Joyce going back to IU being resolved in about August or September.
This definitely. Churches in my experience are more of a safe place UNTIL you do something “non-christian” and then everybody and their mother look down on you, pray for you, and try to convert you. They’ll pull you up to the front to pray and you can hear their whispered prayers full of slurs and asking for you to return to the fold. I’ve heard many a tailored sermon.
And in a fundie church I imagine my experience amplified. Especially since her parents will be there, as my parents never were.
Joe talking here breaks my heart, because it means he’s gone through some terrible stuff more than just parents “yelling a lot”.
Yup, but now she’s on the other side and seeing the dark side of the faith that has given her strength up to now. And it’s already been pretty brutal (Toedad, Carol, John) and it’s only going to get worse from here on out because now she’s been labeled a “troubled girl” so the passive-aggression is about to be cranked up to 11.
But has she seen it done to someone else in the past and will she remember it and see the parallels?
I’m not sure Joe or Joyce were really thinking Becky would be going.
To be fair to Joe he did ask Joyce if Church would be safe, Joyce confirmed its the safest she could imagine so Joe was working off Joyces information
I think Joyce honestly hasn’t taken into account the “until you do something” bit, because she’s never experienced it before. It’s always been a safe place, up until now, because up until now she’s never had experience with a “problem”.
Yeah I think she’s going to get quite the rude awakening…one of the main reasons I read this comic is because of the drama so I want to see whats going to happen in church, I want to see how bad it’ll get (I have no experience of this so its all new to me) but there’s a part in brain going “noooooooo’
I think its fair to say this is not going to end well
Why is the idea of Joyce cursing come across as so freaking adorable?
‘Cause it’s like a 5 year old giving the finger. You just cannot help but laugh.
I actually like Becky in this outfit (though clearly she doesn’t). The long pink is a nice contrast to her more punk hair. It does need accessories though. My first instinct is a nice pattern sash for a belt, and some Mad Max shoulder armor for a touch more punk. However, my first instinct is rarely right. How would you guys improve Becky’s outfit?
OH
STARING AT ST PETER
I GET IT, IT’S A DICK JOKE 😀
or at least it is now, to me.
Huh. I forgot Joe is Jewish.
I mean as someone who grew up in an Orthodox church called the Church of St. Peter, I did spend a lot of my time on Sunday looking at him up on the alter.
“It’s the safest place I can imagine.”
Oh dear. Oh poor Joyce…
Church has been a huge part of her life, of her growing up. Everybody she knew, her parents, her friends, had a shared belief in the specialness of that building. It’s what pulls them together.
If that’s taken from her… she’ll have so little left. She’ll be in so much pain. I know a lot of people who’ve never recovered from this. They never build up a new worldview after their childhood beliefs are shattered, and end up very bitter, lost, and lonely.
They were never given the mental toolset you need in order to think for yourself, to find morality within yourself. They literally don’t know how to operate once their safe place is taken away.
I hope this isn’t where this arc is going… but I’m afraid it is. Which means Joyce will only have her college friends to help her through it.
And that’s the thing that is intentional about how she and those raised like her are raised. To be in a place where “leaving the church” or being removed from family or the church basically means starting over with nothing. You are trained to let the church be your community, your support network, your guiding philosophy, the guardians of your records, the way you’re supposed to interact with the world, and so on…
It’s the reason why Becky has been scrambling like crazy of late to build something that is new and won’t collapse like a house made of wet paper. It’s why Jocelyne is being so careful and making sure she is fully capable of independently surviving before she pulls the plug on coming out. It’s why Joyce is reeling now.
Because that all-encompassing support and safety is used as a leash to angrily yank on people who dare stray out of the sold morality or dare to be something not approved by the church leaders.
Oh, don’t agree with us anymore, think we’ve done wrong? Cool, hope you enjoy having all your former friends shun you and doing without even the most rudimentary support network and when you’re weak, we’ll send around a “worried message” willing to “welcome you back with open arms” anytime you stop that silly nonsense.
It’s a brutal system and Joyce has obviously not made the connection that her breaks with the church’s dogma on certain issues will necessitate eventually giving up this “safest space” and means that today’s sermon is going to be the direct opposite of “safest space”.
Why is Becky staring at the hanger with a look of abject terror on her face? Were threats being made before Joyce interrupted, or is this a PTSD flashback to childhood memories?
I think she’s looking in shock at her dress. Which, tbf, is a shocking display of … something … ugliness and conformity, perhaps.
Comic Reactions:
Panel 1: “If you don’t trust your parents, try to limit your interactions with them to places where there’s other people”. Oh Joe… 🙁
There’s no way that advice isn’t hard learned by painful personal experience and I have to think both about the way that Joe’s mom didn’t seem to even make an appearance for Parent’s Night and how he seemed to keep his dad in the common areas (where he proceeded to harass everyone around until slipping off to sleep with Amber’s mom) rather than going somewhere with him for a quiet dinner together.
And that’s a rough place to be. Not being able to trust your parents not to rip into you or be awful if there’s not a witness to blunt the attacks. It shouldn’t be a lesson anyone should have to learn, but I suppose that’s the cruelty of life right there.
Panel 2: “The safest place I can imagine” Oh, Joyce… 🙁 She still views church as the enriching spiritually fulfilling place it has always been for her and that view is going to be betrayed so brutally, painfully hard.
Maybe the pastor is going to go in on a rant about how hell-bound gay people and those who support them are. Maybe the pastor will openly support Toedad and try and call him a hero or blame Becky for “driving” him to it through her “sin”. Maybe it’s just going to go hard on the “duties” a “good daughter” has to her family. Maybe it’ll be the same old sermons about queers and atheists and sex, but now it just won’t have the same feeling, won’t bring the same relief. Will just feel hollow and wrong and she’ll have to think about her friends and how it hurts her to imagine them “suffering for all eternity”.
Something won’t sit right. Something won’t be safe. And she’ll lose one more tendril trying to cling to something from her past that isn’t corroded and rotted and made foul. And she’s not even going to be emotionally prepared for it when it happens.
Panel 3: And back to the empathy sad-face for Joe. Again, there’s no way this isn’t very related to personal experiences. Grandstanding and passive-aggression were probably his parents main dynamics in and around the arguing and he probably had to find his own methods for getting around that and learning to cope.
No wonder he’s shut up his emotions deep deep inside himself and convinced himself that processing them or letting him feel things is dumb and gross and bad. No wonder he tries to avoid any critical thought about interactions between genders and tries to keep everything as superficial as possible.
But hopefully this new connection will help him see that he rode it out and now he’s free and he doesn’t have to be bound by their bad mistakes anymore.
Panel 4: Aw, I love the little euphemism that Joyce uses here. Which is good because…
Panel 5: Wow, there’s so much here. Carol slamming into Becky’s room early in the morning to make sure she’s “proper”, Joyce letting slip her cursing in front of her mom who is sure to take this as more evidence that her daughter is slipping into “ungodly deviations” from her school, that dress…
I mean, there’s no way that every ounce of this ties in with the weird fundie belief that gayness is just caused by excessive confusion about “proper” gender roles and allowing one’s femininity or masculinity be derailed by Satan. It’s what caused Toedad to rant about Dina taking Becky’s womanhood. It’s what caused him to call her hair a betrayal of his family. It’s what Joyce was referring to here:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/03-up-all-night-to-get-vengeance/genderidentity/
And there’s no doubt this is about forcing Becky into an extreme femininity to try and counteract the demonic spirits inhabiting her body and whatnot. I have no doubts that if Joyce did not knock right now, Carol would be forcing lipstick and makeup on her face as well.
And that Becky face… 🙁 She’s in such distress about it. There’s equally no doubt that Carol has not been ripping into her as much as she did the night before last, taking this opportunity of seclusion to bring out the knives and truly rant at her for “destroying one family and now seeking to destroy another” and so on… And after all she’s been through yesterday having to stare down the demons of her past and walk through a home that was never allowed to be truly hers at any point? It’s just heartbreaking to the extreme.
And the worst part is we know Becky, we’ve seen how she handles this. When that door opens it’ll be smiley happy Becky, wacky and full of fun and not at all betraying how much things are ripping her apart or how much awful Carol just dumped on her head.
And that last angry stare from Carol, just communicating her raw hate… even worse now because of the circumstances of the moving timeline. At least for today, this is coming off of the very recent shootings in Orlando by accident. Which means that Carol’s homophobic awfulness, while usually terrible is coming after the recent slaughter of queer folk in addition to the near murder of her daughter and her daughter’s friend.
To this, it is still more important to condemn and angrily hate. To this, it is still more important to angrily try and force Becky back into a half-sort of closet, desperate and impossible. And it makes her actions even the more monstrous than they were in the original intention.
I just want you to know that I actively seek out your comic reactions. I love them. Thank you for taking the time to write them. <3
Thanks
Um, isn’t Joyce’s mom gonna be pissed that Joyce cursed?
Ok so luckily we know how Joyce turns out but even if we didn’t we can make some reasonable assumptions
Joyce has moving beyond the precepts of her upbringing by being friends with Dorothy, Ethan and Billie, people who her church and her upbringing would dictate that she shun yet would welcome Mary with open arms
We see her communicating with Joe when before she wanted to hit him (making amends perhaps?), we see her growth, we see her circle of support increasing
We know shes going to be all right and, through Joyce, Becky will be ok as well
Of course that’s the long term view, the short term view shes going to be sucking on a shit sandwich
Why is Joyce’s mum in the room with Becky when she’s getting dressed?