Those of you who’ve followed my earlier, pre-Dumbing of Age webcomics should know that Joyce and Walky! is now completed! Like, finally. If you’ve bought the subscription pages from my store, the power to read them is yours, with one hiccup: I can’t access the old joyceandwalky.com server anymore, so I’ve mirrored everything at itswalky.com. So if you just swap out “joyceandwalky.com” for “itswalky.com” in the URL for the last subscription strip page, you can read the final five strips.
*puts the final mound of dirt on the Walkyverse’s funeral plot, hopes it doesn’t spring forth like a zombie*
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“Look, Danno, I know you’re gay for me, but you need to work on your act if you’re gonna hide in the closet like that.”
“I’m not gay for YOU, Joe! …wait I mean”
ahhh the actual final end of J&W! *completionist’s sigh*
okay that’s done time to check Patreon
Shoot, I can’t find the email where Willis sent the link if you subscribed in my inbox.
Ha, nevermind, found the old inbox.
Stop Danning it up so much, Danny, or people will think you *are* gay…waitaminute… 😛
*Should be preparing for a job interview right now* xD
What are you talking about this is totally relevant to all job interviews
I HAVE LITERALLY BEEN WAITING YEARS FOR THIS MOMENT!
Damn, so its finally ended? Ugh… Guess now I need to get the subscription pages to finish them. I was just hoping it would kind of go on forever… Oh well, time to have all the feels!
Apparently you may also pledge to Patreon! =D
(also, Willis, I didn’t mean to sound like I was being dismissive or anything, just that “SQUEEEEEEE!!!x19846” seems a bit spoilery)
I’mnotgayYOU’REgaySHUTUP
Laugh at everything. Because life’s a joke. You’re the punchline and the apocalypse is nigh!
Something something nihilist arby’s
DOOM UPON THIS PLANET AND LET IT BE FILLED WITH THE BLOOD OF THE GUILTY AND THE BARBECUE SAUCE OF THE INNOCENT!
For life is quite absurd,
And Death’s the final word,
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin,
Give the audience a grin.
Enjoy it, it’s you’re last chance of the hour.
SO, always look on the bright side of Death.
Just before you draw your terminal breath…
Joe knows where it’s at here. Amber can deal again. #literallyfallinginlove
Joe’s gaydar is tingling…
No, tht’s early-stage syphilis.
If that’s the case, AG needs to get tested.
Do Amazi-condoms protect against STD’s?
Amazi-condoms protect against anything since they’re always prepared.
Since an intact condom that is worn properly prevents the naughtiest of the naughty bits from being in direct contact, it should reduce the chances of STD transmission.
They’re hardly amazing if they don’t.
I’d be amazed if they didn’t.
No, but they are immune to criticism.
Nope, amazi-condoms only protect from sexual based critisism unfortunately.
Amazi-condoms are immun to cliticism
Why would Joe having syphilis require Amber/Amazi-Girl to get tested? He may have her on his “to do” list, but I suspect any attempt to check her off would result in him getting a beating that would put Mike’s to shame.
FYI, you don’t generally see the kind of nerve damage that would cause that kind of shaking until the later stages of syphilis.
Joe contracting an STD would be an interesting development. He’s supposedly pretty conscientious about practicing safe sex, but nothing beyond total abstinence is 100% safe and if his stories are to be believed he’s had a LOT of partners since the series began.
Maybe there’ll be a plot twist in which we learn Joe is a virgin and he really just stayed up all night playing xbox and eating nachitos with all those girls.
Sadly, he has video evidence to the contrary courtesy of Roz. It would be immensely entertaining to discover that she was an anomalous success and that he’s actually been exaggerating his “score” though. Other than Roz and Penny, I don’t think he has any confirmed sex partners, so that’s vaguely plausible.
I was just hoping someone would draw a picture of Roz looking annoyed while Joe played video games honestly >.>
I’d love to see that.
Not even abstinence is 100% safe. STDs are commonly spread by intercourse, not only.
Truth. Which makes the terms STD/STI technically inaccurate, doesn’t it?
The Question here is why would he have one?
Maybe he got it cos it was a free ad-free app.
Strangely enough, when you download that app they recommend you download a free Bible app. Not sure how that’s related at all.
I typed in gaydar in Google Play and got a list of gay dating and hook up apps… kinda makes sense when you think of it.
Google Gaydar huh? Well its a better idea than that Angry AI New Zealands making.
A “gaydar” app which allows any gay/bi/lesbian who have joined Gaydar to identify any nearby LBGs for easier socialisation/dating.
Transdar is still in early pre-alpha.
But trans isn’t an orientation…
Well yeah but it’s still impossible to find each other.
You basically just described the principle behind apps like Grindr, but those are…
Let’s just say they are focused on a very particular subset of what could be referred to as dating.
For Joe, it would tell him which girls have zero interest in him.
It doesn’t seem to have worked with “the tasty redhead” Becky.
Joe’s Gaydar needs a tuneup I think. Or it doesn’t think Bisexuals exist.
Danny laughing… [shudder]
It’s occurred to me, I don’t know if we’ve ever seen anyone sincerely laughing in DoA. It’s basically always nervous laughter, and the few times it isn’t are usually instances of derisive laughter instead.
I think Sarah’s made a snrrk of amusement but I can’t think of when.
She laughed when Joyce got her flu shot despite not believing in evolution.
Oh yeah, and here’s Billie laughing at her. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/hadme/
–oh hey, while archive diving I found out that Billie was into some bisexual dudes. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/people/
So she does know what bisexuality is, and is positively disposed towards bi dudes, she just hasn’t embraced the identity herself. The More You Know
…Billie may not have used the word but it’s pretty clear she does identify as bisexual.
I think the instinct that there are alot more nervous chuckles and snarky snerks is correct though.
Billie must know she’s bi on some level, although I’m not sure she’d admit it in those words. I kind of wonder if she’s thought of herself as just experimenting so far, and that’s why she’s having trouble now that she’s in a real relationship and faced with the idea of giving up dudes. (Alternatively, she could be at ease with her self identity and still not want to give up dudes.)
Billie honestly seems more pansexual to me.
Pansexuality can superficially resemble bisexuality considering the two orientations are very similar in practical terms.
Just after they hooked up, Dorothy ran into Walky’s arms, he tried to spin her around, and they ended up on the floor.
They laughed then. Sorry I don’t have time to look it up. 🙂
He even dans up his laughter
Oh Joe, just embodying the casual homophobia of toxic masculinity.
Wait… which part of what Joe said is homophobic?
The part where the idea of Danny dating a guy to be inherently comedic and the chiding of Danny when Danny laughed nervously along to the needing protection joke.
No offense but I get the idea that you might be a bit too sensitive about this. Just because he makes a joke involving homosexuality doesn’t mean he’s being derisive about it.
Um, Joe was chiding Danny for laughing at the thing that was not a joke, after he didn’t laugh earlier at the thing that WAS a joke, I think.
When someone responds to ‘it’s not a date’ with ‘I know, if it was I’d be saying have fun and be safe dude’ I don’t think ‘casual homophobia’.
If Joe made that joke about Danny going out with a platonic female friend, sexist? Probably not, because Joe was only distinguishing between date and not a date, not gay and straight. His two options weren’t “be back early” and “ew,” they were “be back early” or “stay out late, get laid, and be safe” which doesn’t sound very homophobic to me.
His comment would have worked (and probably been the same) had it been a female. He probably made the not-a-gay-date comment partly because of their earlier conversation but I read this as the opposite of homophobic. He’s basically saying “dude, you need to get laid and I legit don’t care what set of genitals you do it with, just be safe and have fun. Lots of fun.”
It reads to me as Joe kind of quietly saying that if Danny is into the dudes he doesn’t care at all, which he kind of failed to do earlier.
Seriously. He’s teasing Danny about his not-a-date, and assuring him that if it were a date, he’d be hoping for Danny to get laid. I could easily see him saying exactly the same thing if it were Amber at the door and Danny were insisting he wasn’t going on a date with her.
Except he reacted negatively when Danny took that part positively. Hence the “knowing which statements to laugh at” comment.
He didn’t react negatively to Danny taking it positively. He reacted negatively to Danny thinking he was joking. Because he wasn’t. He genuinely wants Danny to get laid by whoever turns Danny’s crank.
I think he’d see it as an explanation for Danny’s reluctance for premarital hanky-panky more than anything. Probably be happy for the reason. Y’know, up until Danny still showed relcutance because he has self-control and Joe just has a “try again later” queue.
Eeh, that didn’t stop him with Dorothy.
Or with Amber.
Touche. I’d forgotten about Dorothy. Joe does know about that I must assume.
It seemed to me the “knowing which statement to laugh” at was recourse the second statement was actually serious.
I’m not really getting this. Indicating that Danny should not laugh at the second statement means that it’s not a joke. And if it’s not a joke, then Joe really would treat Danny having a date with a guy in exactly the same way as he would if he had a date with a girl. How is that toxic or homophobic?
The problem is he’s being so indirect it’s really not clear what he means. Which is why the comments are arguing about it.
So if what you’re saying is right he’s doing a poor job at showing it.
Yeah, I think the strip can be read as either casually supportive or casually homophobic. I have a hard time getting worked up about it either way, since Joe’s statements are so obviously without malice.
I think the bigger issue is that people kind of expect Joe to be a more supportive friend to Danny in these times of sexual confusedness, but Joe’s kind of focused on other things and is exasperated by the whole ordeal. Joe doesn’t seem like he’s in a great mood in the first panel, and kind of seems to be reacting to Danny with a not-this-shit-again kind of attitude that kind of obscures whether he has a problem with Danny liking dudes or just with Danny’s flailing about in general.
Joe being bad at showing something other than sexual interest?! What is this comic coming to?!
But seriously I cannot read this as homophobic. I thought it was a good sign of Joe not caring about Danny’s sexuality. Which isn’t great, because DANNY cares about Danny’s sexuality and one would hope his best friend would (but we’ve met Joe before). But Joe it 100% reads to me that Joe doesn’t care who he’s into. Not great friendship, but definitely not homophobic.
Yeah, as a guy this just sounds like the casual ribbing of a relationship between guys. My boyfriend and I say this kinda stuff to each other all the time.
How is that toxic? It sounds quite supportive
Eh, mostly apathetic and poking fun at the fact that he thinks Danny doesn’t get laid enough.
Yep. I honestly don’t think Joe gives a crap either way about Danny’s sexuality…I think he just wants his friend to have the same sort of college experience he sees as ideal.
Just because Joe expresses his sexuality as hyper-heterosexual doesn’t mean he is automatically homophobic.
Yeah, during an earlier argument he pretty much stated that if Danny was gay he should just say so so that they could have the supportive ‘it’s okay’ talk and get it over with and move on. He doesn’t want to have that talk, due to not wanting to talk about feelings, but he’s ready to if he has to.
Well his actual phrasing was “handholding you through some excruciating self-discovery” which isn’t exactly a “supportive” talk. And his immediate follow-up before Danny could answer was to derail into an aggressively heterosexual interaction (bros complimenting bros on the size of their conquest’s “knockers”).
Which I know from personal experience that getting a “look at how heterosexual we all are, right?!?” response to trying to discuss queer issues is hella alienating and at least discourages me from feeling fully comfortable broaching the subject again.
Tough love can still be love, and Joe is a pretty adept, adjusted adult, love him or hate him. He enjoys life and doesn’t hurt others. But he’s different from most of us readers, so we should probably judge him a bunch.
Idk man. Yeah, Joe is different from the typical reader of DoA, but I don’t think he deserves nearly the hate he gets. Dude just knows what he wants and how to get it. I’ve always hated his stereotype myself, but I’m alright with Joe. Strange, I know. He one of the few straight-shooters in a comic full of people with wide-eyed but sometimes puzzling ignorance and ulterior motives.
Tough love can still be love, but that doesn’t mean that it actually is. Basically every piece of advice Joe has ever given Danny is “stop doing what you’re doing and be more like me”, and that’s not actually supportive (or especially useful). And in fact, Danny clearly does not feel supported, helped, or even listened to. So if Joe means to be supportive–and he’s usually pretty up-front that he doesn’t, which is why I flat don’t believe him when he implies he’d help Danny through his identity crisis if Danny asked–he ought perhaps to re-examine his tactics.
In that strip Joe’s being angry at Danny, because he feels that Dan doesn’t respect his way of living (being often judgemental etc). And Joe’s pretty straightforward person, so he’s probably getting irritated because all that circling around the issue. These feelings result in Joe’s “Would be nice if you once said ‘oh neat, how big were her knockers'” Why should he be all understanding about Dan’s sexuality when Dan doesn’t really respect his? Still he seemed to imply that it’s okay if Dan’s gay. he just doesn’t have the patience for the discussion at the moment (no person’s perfect anyway). This day’s strip could be his roundabout way trying to fix the earlier (I really don’t see the homophobia you guys are talking about)
Damn my english writing skills are rusty. Honestly took me over an hour to finish this comment. It didn’t come out exactly the way I wanted, but hoping you people get the point.
Because it posits male gay desire as being so ludicrous to consider that of course it must be a joke.
I don’t think thats what Joe is saying at all, I think its more the ludicrousness of Danny being anyones object of desire gay or otherwise
Rereading the comic I got that really wrong, I think its more that Joe just wants Danny to get laid
Well considering that Danny has a girlfriend (he told him about Amazigirl right?), it’s pretty logical for Joe to assume that it’s ludicrous. He could say the same thing if it was Amber at the door
Has Joe ever seen Amazi-Girl with Danny? Because if he hasn’t, why would he believe such a ridiculous story? Sure Danny, you’re dating a superhero, you bet.
I honestly don’t think he ever registered that Danny even claimed to be dating Amazi-Girl:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/dryhumping/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/04-the-whiteboard-dong-bandit/skim-2/
I’m actually not sure what he thinks Danny’s romantic status is at the moment. He knows Danny was dating someone, but then Danny came in talking about how things were really complicated with her, and then that he was uninterested in dating for a while, but then he told Joe in a rather unconvincing fashion that he had a girlfriend who was not Amber. So who knows what Joe thinks is going on with him.
Without knowing or caring too much about the details he thinks that Danny is Dannying it up, whatever he is doing.
Or he just thinks it’s ludicrous for Danny in particular because, you know, he is 100% sure that Danny is straight because he asked him directly. (Well, except for the whole bi erasure thing). I mean, he would have said if he was gay, right?
Joe isn’t stupid, despite all appearances. He knows what Danny was getting at earlier. Seems to me this is his way of showing he’d be ok with it.
See, Dorothy says so, and she’d know better than anyone.
Except he short-circuited that conversation and routed it back to himself before Danny could give a straight (heh) answer back. And he’s staring right at Danny when he’s chiding him the second time, seeing his nervous laughter. I dunno, in my eyes, I’m not seeing this as an example of him showing bro love to a confused friend, I see him chiding him for not fitting in Joe’s preferred model of heterosexuality…
But as I said below, I seem to be quite alone in that perspective, so maybe this one’s on me.
Walky, with his shoe policy, has a greater conformance to gender stereotypes than Joe does. Don’t forget all the lesbian jokes Walky’s made about Joe.
At the same time, neither of them are as bad as they could be (neither of them have actually made any leering fantasies about Leslie and Becky, actually confirmed lesbians).
Joyce, not Joe.
I fully agree. I think Walky is just as mired in that particular incarnation of toxic masculinity as Joe (and possibly way worse given his weird rules of masculinity). In fact, it’s hard to be raised as a heterosexual male in our culture and not have to actively shake that stuff off.
I also agree that neither of them is as terrible as they could be, which is why I see it as a little bit of casual idiocy getting in the way of Joe being capable of supporting his friend instead of reinforcing bad habits.
But that’s the thing.
Danny is, whether purposely or not, attempting to change the terms of the (implied) relationship he has had with Joe up until they came to college. One in which they didn’t really engage emotionally. Danny previously got his emotional support from the emotionally stable and levelheaded Dorothy. That relationship is ended, and now Danny has to find that in someone else.
He turns to Joe for that support and is rebuffed, because that’s not part of what Joe considers to be their friendship. They’re coming from two entirely different perspectives on their expectations for their relationship and it’s only now becoming a problem.
To me, the Joe is a being homophobic argument falls apart when you consider that Joe is equally uninterested in talking to Danny about anything complicated. “Stuff” as he puts it. He’s very up front about what he wants in his friendship with Danny.
Joe wants to avoid any emotional entanglements whatsoever. “Yes, because it changes the parameters of the conversation! It means the difference between the answer being ‘No, of course not!’ and hand-holding you through some excruciating self-discovery. It’s the difference between ANSWERS and FEELINGS.” That smacks of a person who has decided that emotions in general(not just other people’s emotions, his too) are not worth the trouble they cause.
I’m not saying Joe is right, but the friendship Joe signed on for does not include him being emotionally supportive in pretty much any capacity beyond simple acceptance(and the occasional ‘High-five, bro!”). He wants Danny to figure his shit out(preferably someplace far away from him) and then let him know what’s up so he can go back to pretending that emotions do not exist.
I’m not sure which comment I was replying to when I posted what I wrote above, but it doesn’t entirely make sense right here.
So lets all just pretend I put it some place where it did make sense.
Interestingly enough Gordon, I think what you say is why I read his actions as having the casual dismissal of homosexuality of prototypical “bro” behavior. You’re right that he wants a friendship that is based on shallow celebratory interactions with bros instead of anything that could be regarded as feelings. And the way he wants that expressed is very prototypical to a particular subset of heterosexual male behavior, one where one’s value is gaged not only on one’s “success” with women, but a score-keeping aspect to acquiring them and an extreme casual relationship among men to keep the homosocial bonding from seeming “gay”.
Joe definitely expresses all of that, right down to the numbering of women and his deflection of conversations into “you are supposed to be all high five bro” not to mention his responses surrounding Danny and Dorothy’s breakup (for the next five minutes we don’t know each other over-exaggeration of potentially being in the same room as even male masturbation while expecting Danny to put up with not only Joe recounting all his “conquests” but supporting his “hunts” when its his immediately recent ex-girlfriend).
I think people are right that Joe is dismissive of a lot of Danny’s “stuff” including his relationship with Amber and his preferred relationship structure for instance, but I think it’s why I have a hard time reading his reaction to Danny’s bisexuality in an overly positive light when it comes off as the same “you failed the bro culture, dude” chiding as everything else.
So to tl;dr myself, it’s the fact that Joe is consistently broish about everything else that makes me more likely to see these moments as very casually dismissive about male attraction to men rather than less.
Joe isn’t being homophobic or bi-erase-ish here. His first joking statement about dating is still applicable word-for-word if Danny were being picked up by a girl. His second statement about “in that case Ethan should bring you back super late and use protection” is 100% sincere, since in the final panel Joe establishes that he is not joking about that.
Weird that this idea completely clashes with Joe trying to get Danny out of the closet earlier, if only to avoid the awkward hand-holding during a self-discovery.
They really need a better word than homophobic, a phobia is an uncontrollable fear often brought on by some kind of trauma, which suggests that homophobes are the real victims of homophobia.
Eh, except the word’s meaning is understood, even if it’s roots don’t match it’s usage.
Yeah, the word’s roots are pretty far removed from the word’s meaning. Since “homo-” really only means same. It would imply being afraid of things that were similar to you(?)
But people generally agree on the word’s meaning, and that being a homophobe isn’t being a victim, so I think it works.
I understand the etiology argument, but I’d be terrified of anyone that was too similar to me. Dopplegangers are creepy, and they’re even worse when they’re copying a moderately awful person like myself.
I’m there with you. Doppelgangers are creepy.
On that subject, having an identical twin must be pretty difficult. Everyone comparing you and mistaking you for one another. Figuring out personal identity is difficult enough without having your genetic clone around all the time.
Have you seen a show called Orphan Black?
It deals with this issue. It’s kind of amazing.
I have not, but I think I need to now *_*
Thankies.
You’re welcome.
Also goodbye cause it’ll probably be a few days before you get back from binge watching.
Heh, that reminds me of a webserial I read where they have the Doppelganger Paradox, which states that perfect duplicates of intelligent beings won’t rest until they’ve destroyed one another.
It will happen even if they aren’t initially aware of each other. They will be drawn to each other and attempt to destroy each other. Or go insane.
Why are they driven to destroy each other? Is there like a reason or is it just so they can fight?
It’s just a function of the universe, which is explicitly stated to be governed by magical forces(mostly divine action), rather than scientific principles. Science has roughly the cult-like status that magic has in our world.
It’s only briefly mentioned, but I think the understanding is that universe considers a duplicate to be an error that must be corrected. Two instances of the same person, when there should only be one. It also doesn’t recognize the difference between these two beings. So essentially causality is contrived for one or both of them to be eliminated.
Oh so it’s like highlander.
And with that horrid joke I shall retire from the internet forever.
Actually sounds to me like they lifted the concept from the original Dungeons & Dragons “Clone” spell, where you had to keep your duplicate in stasis or you’d try to murder each other.
I wouldn’t say Homophobic would be the wrong word choice, I’ve seen some people’s reactions to same-sex relations (especially guys to guy-guy stuff) that would rate pretty well as fear…
What was that quote? “Some guys are homophobic cause they’re afraid of some other guy doing to them what they do to women…”
I don’t think that’s what’s actually going on here though?
The mention of it being a joke is made after Danny seems bothered by the implication that Joe thought he and Ethan were going on a date. Joe’s second statement is pretty much indicative (to me at least) that he isn’t particularly bothered by the thought of his roommate going on a date with a guy. His only negative reaction is to Danny’s overly nervous laughter in response to that.
It’s pretty consistent with how he seemed to come off in their earlier conversation – he doesn’t have a particular issue with Danny’s sexuality but doesn’t really want to have to deal with Danny worrying about it at the present time.
As a disclaimer, my social literacy is probably not that much more than Dina’s and I have a tendency to assume best intentions in most situations.
I don’t know, to me, his earlier conversation did not come through as remotely supportive and showed deep discomfort with even broaching that topic with his “bro” or discussing it in anything other than dismissive tones. And to me, it’s hard to take his final statement as a supportive statement for sexual desire for men when he’s looking straight at Danny and seeing his incredibly telling nervous laughter when he’s chiding him.
Based on the comments though, I see I’m alone in this perception, so who knows. To me, however, Joe’s behavior has seemed consistent with a particular tope of male heterosexual behavior based on fetishization of lesbian sexual activity, over-exaggeration of heterosexual sexual prowess, and dismissal of gay male relationships as well as feelings in general (which are something that are considered in this particular trope to be girly and “gay”).
And I’ve not seen enough evidence that he in his current incarnation is separated enough from that toxic masculine trope to be a queer supportive individual, especially since all his previous interactions with Danny expressing same-gender attraction have either been dismissive or straight-up corrective (like oh, Danny, really? kind of stuff).
But again, as I stated, I seem to be alone in that perspective so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see until Joe and Danny’s next interaction (which will hopefully be tomorrow).
As far as their last interaction, I read it less as Joe dismissing Danny’s issues because of homophobia or anything like it, and more that he was angry that Danny wasn’t interacting with him in the way that he needed. He was trying to make jokes and pal around, and Danny is constantly coming to him to talk about relationship drama and stuff, but so he’s expecting all this support from Joe without giving anything back as far as what Joe wants out of the friendship. I think the conversation would have gone exactly the same way if he wanted to talk about having complicated feelings for another girl, or his relationship with Amber again.
Yes. This.
As far as most people can tell, Joe’s problem isn’t with Danny potentially being gay, it’s Danny’s roundabout way of getting to his point. He doesn’t want to dance around the issue and deal with all the fluff, he just wants to get right to the point. Look how he dealt with when Danny didn’t have sex with Billie. When Dan wanted to talk about feelings, Joe bailed. When Danny agreed he was kind of pent up after that, Joe just gave him tissue and lube, put on blinders and ‘for the next five minutes, we don’t know each other’.
Joe falls into the common male stereotype of ‘don’t want to talk about feelings, just point me to the problem so I can fix it’.
Realistically, Joe’s a 21st century teenager brought up on secular media and confident in his own sexuality; I think he’s comfortable enough with the idea of being liking whoever they want, even if he’s strictly into girls and is more than appreciateive of lesbians.
Oh I agree that he was very unsupportive in the previous conversation I just don’t think he’s doing badly in this particular conversation.
Nah, I got this reading too.
I don’t think Joe would ever actually give Danny shit for being bi, regardless of what his opinion on the subject is, but his actual opinion on the subject is kind of up in the air atm. I can see this as Joe being a little homophobic and ew-keep-that-gay-stuff-out-of-our-dorm. He has been dismissive of this from the get-go.
But, then again, Joe was dismissive of Danny’s wish for a committed relationship with Amber as well. He’s been pretty dismissive of anything Danny has to say (just like Danny has been of Joe, btw), so it’s easy to read this as Joe just being fed up with Danny’s feelings crap in general.
I feel like it’s less about Danny’s sexuality and more about the fact that Danny insists on making everything into A Thing in which Emotions must be Discussed.
I think it’s a change in their relationship, up to this point, because previously Danny had Dorothy, who is free of glaring psychological issues, to whom he could confide his emotions. Joe isn’t enjoying it.
I think you’re right that the removal of Dorothy (and, you know, everyone else in Danny’s life) has suddenly left Joe as the person that Danny talks to, and that he’s not happy about it. But I just want to point out that according to Danny, when they were kids they did have a relationship where they talked about stuff, emotions presumably included. Danny’s trying to get that relationship back, and I feel for him even as I think that the two of them should really just acknowledge that they’ve grown apart and aren’t friends anymore.
Yeah, but their relationship changed when Danny started dating Dorothy, and Joe was happy about that.
I agree, neither of them is getting what they want from the friendship they have. It’s time to acknowledge that fact and move on.
Joe was not supportive earlier, not because of the potential shattering of Danny’s heterosexual illusion, but because he doesn’t want to have to talk about their feelings. Joe is annoyed now because Danny freaked out at a harmless joke and then laughed when Joe stated he’d e accepting. This is offensive to Joe because it makes it seem like Danny thinks he’s homophobic when he’s never demonstrated anything resembling intolerance. remember, Joe is not us, he doesn’t know what Danny’s gone through because Danny refuses to just say things outright and dances around the subject until Joe gets too annoyed to keep going and shuts down the conversation.
Trust me, you aren’t. People act like just because Joe doesn’t directly mock Danny’s sexuality then he’s clearly a fully supportive friend and ally.
You’re on the ball about Joe. He’s clearly rooted in toxic masculine culture. I should think walking in late into his Gender Studies class asking about “Sweet Lesbian Facts” should be enough to understand that Joe others LGBT sexuality as something to either be ignored or fetishized.
Upon rereading it, I think you got this incorrect. He’s making a joke about it being a date because he set up the whole fatherly “be home by such and such time” thing in the first panel, which went over Danny’s head because Danny really is afraid of his attraction to Ethan.
Furthermore, his second statement about if it were a date was entirely genuine. He honestly doesn’t care whether or not Danny’s attracted to dudes, only that they use protection.
I honestly dislike Joe, but I won’t dislike him for the wrong reasons. This is him joking around and supporting Danny no matter what the case is.
So out of curiosity what are the right reasons to dislike him?
Well for me, I just dislike his overall snarky, sarcastic attitude and his constant sex drive butting in everywhere. It’s just a personal opinion.
Well, it’s not because we are censorious prudes who disapprove of his having casual sex even though all his trysts are fully consensual and as mutually satisfying as he can make the. That would be one of the wrong reasons.
I think it’s because his attitude, in particular his determination to have a great many trivial liaisons, rules out the possibility of forming a lasting and deeply-felt relationship with a woman. That seems to imply that he disregards the possibility of appreciating female companionship, that is, he considers it out of the question that he might value relating to any woman as a person. And that implies a disparagement of women.
If he were highly-libidinous and sexually forward but unconcerned with making lists and counting scores; if he seemed open to the possibility of liking someone he fucked and sticking with her for repeat engagements, companionship, other-than-sexual fun, and hanging out together; then we might consider him an ethical slut rather than a misogynist.
I think that’s it, anyway.
>we might consider him an ethical slut rather than a misogynist.
Wait what? Because he prioritizes sex he hates women? What the fuck?
No, not because he prioritises sex. If he just gave sex his number-one priority that would be ethical sluttishness, which I suggested we would be okay with. The problem seems to be that he makes no allowance for being friends with a woman, hanging out, playing games, being buddies. That seems to value women less than men as people.
But, in fairness, he doesn’t really do that with Danny, either, who is supposedly his friend. He avoids emotional entanglements of any kind, even friendships. Everyone else actually spends time with other people. Even Sarah voluntarily spends time with Joyce sometimes and expresses worry about her and other people. The only time we ever see Joe is in the morning when he is waking up, when he and Danny happen to be in their dorm room together, or when he happens to be at a place where people who know him are(the cafeteria or in class). Take a look at the pages tagged Joe and you’ll notice most of his pages are of him walking or sitting alone in the background by himself.
He doesn’t hang out with Danny and actively avoids or shuts down any conversation that isn’t about how much sex one of them is having.
It seems like the only human interaction Joe voluntarily participates in is whatever necessary steps he has to make to obtain consensual sex with a woman.
Then maybe it is because we are censorious prudes.
I think he doesn’t want emotional relationships with guys either. It’s more a “no feelings ever” thing than “no feelings with women” thing.
I don’t know, at least for me, what rubs me wrong about him isn’t even related to him being more poly-oriented or (mostly) his views on consensual sex. It’s all right for someone to have a high libido, seek out a large amount of sex, and to have a lot of sexual partners. In fact those can be downright positive qualities and should definitely not be seen as detracting from his moral character.
What rubs me the wrong way about him is that he carries a lot of toxic attitudes stemming from the overly “bro” way he goes about that. To whit:
Objectifying women and treating them like numbers.
Treating Women’s Studies classes like a cruising ground.
A familiarity and comfort with PUA terminology and behavior.
Chiding experiencing emotions as being “unmanly”.
Seeing sexually inexperienced people as people who need to be “fixed” (This especially rubs me wrong as an asexual as we’re often targeted for corrective rape for this exact reason)
Predatory and dishonest hunting style (This is one of the bigger ones for me. There’s a difference between being honestly very sexual and very poly and deliberately seeking to present a fictional version of oneself in order to push against boundaries and “defeat” a woman’s guard. And I think this is one of the bigger statements against his character and the morality of how he interacts with women. He values “consent” in that he won’t force himself against a loud no, but he definitely feels coercion and alcohol are fair tactics to “get what he wants” and that’s really toxic and creepy and sadly common).
Reduction of sexual conquests to numbers.
Did I mention the creepy view of alcohol as a means to arrive at “consent” cause that’s a really big red flag.
Overplaying the idea that male sexual activity is inherently “gross”.
Gender and Sexual Essentialism
Gee, I wonder why I find him casually homophobic.
Viewing his friend’s romantic partners as fair game for his “seduction styles”… which it’s also fair to note that of the people we’ve seen (on camera) him try his particular method of pick-up artistry on, over half have been thoroughly creeped out.
Intense discomfort over same-gendered attraction by men
I just want to put a giant bookmark on the sheer number of times that Joe has fetishized lesbians and seen them as wholly performative creatures that he can only relate to via porn and refuses to see as people, but this will suffice (but seriously, holy fuck on that one. One of Joe’s worst behaviors has been the way he’s viewed same-gendered sexual desire between women and how he’s taken every opportunity to fetishize and dehumanize them and how he’s done this to the face of his out lesbian teacher, even when she is trying to discuss the way lesbian women are treated out in the real world). (Heck his dismissal of the class as general also rubs me the wrong way because I’ve had enough bad experiences in women’s studies classes or feminist-identified classes in other majors with that one loud regressive asshole who insisted on derailing any discussion of any topic of sexism to play the douchebag who refuses to learn. I mean, if you’re going to be this antagonistic to any concept in the class and continue to harass your fellow students day in and day out, just bloody drop the class).
I think though, the part of it that is sad is that Joe’s behavior would probably be seen as “normal” for a large part of heterosexual male culture and in some ways better (he at least sees no as no and he at least recognizes that putting women on a pillar also dehumanizes them), but he’s still very mired in a very “bro” sensibility and all the toxicity that entails including his wavering morals on coercion, lack of respect for boundaries, and treatment of queer sexuality.
Which is also why I think I differ from a lot of people in the reading of this particular comic. I don’t see it as a departure from that bro archetype he has otherwise maintained throughout the comic.
Holy crap this is impressively thorough. Bravo.
Wow, this is really thorough, and I completely agree. His previous interaction when Danny was trying to confide in him most definitely didn’t make me see Joe through a light in which I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And all of the points you made in this comment are very valid. I do still like Joe, I feel like he’s a good character and hey there are a LOT of people like that in real life, but that doesn’t make this kind of behaviour anymore right, and all of the stuff mentioned is gross. I hope for some development, although honestly I doubt it’ll ever happen (and perhaps if it did, it’d be unrealistic anyway? Joe doesn’t strike me as the kinda guy who is going to make a change to stop being such a Bro-Bro)
Thaaaaat’s what I hate about him. Yep. That right there. Thank you for being thorough.
I have one question:
While the comic calls it (literally through Leslie) a “gender studies class”, you call it “Women’s Studies class”.
Twice!
For what reason?
Fair question.
If I made that mistake, it would be due to having taken Women’s Studies in school because Gender Studies was not a thing in those days, at least at the university I took it at. Hard mindworm to shake, and I still have to correct myself consciously sometimes.
Whether that’s true of Cerberus I don’t know.
Cause it was Women’s Studies during my college years and I’m a stuck-in-the-mud idiot?
Because he is, indeed, mired in a distinctly toxic form of masculinity. It’s just not one that’s been shown to manifest in the form of homophobia, any more than the ‘oh, no, shoes are girly’ insecurity that Walky displayed.
It’s one that manifests as a distaste for feelings beyond horny, hungry, happy and angry.
And the problem isn’t that he, himself, doesn’t want to acknowledge feelings beyond them, it’s that he gets angry when other dudes around him do.
I’m not sure what people dislike so much about Joe. He practices safe, consensual sex. He is friendly and one of the nicer people in the cast. He seems entirely unbothered by race, creed, gender, or sexuality. He is loyal and helpful. He is extremely honest and upfront.
His one “flaw” is that he has prioritized sex in his life. How is this such a horrendous thing that all his good qualities should be ignored?
I know he has good qualities; everyone and their mother constantly tells me about them whenever I get critical of Joe. I just don’t like him. I listed my reasons above. If they aren’t good enough for you then I’m sorry bud, what can I say? That’s just how I view it. Hopefully it doesn’t affect your enjoyment of the character.
I think it’s partly because we are projecting onto him the qualities of actual list-making score-counting horn-dogs we have known, who have been very much unlike Joe in the matter of being upfront and unbothered by race, gender, and orientation. That is an error, of course.
And I think it’s largely because many of us are guilty of black-and-white thinking, which we displayed in our unfounded idolisation of Becky and the exaggerated backlash when it turned out that she possesses some defects. Joe not only gives sex a high priority (fine in itself), but catalogues women he meets as “sevens” etc. and possible items on a “to do” list: which disparages women as possible friends and persons rather than sexual opportunities. Considering those things to be character defects, we sort Joe as “bad” and then, though black-and-white thinking, imagine him to be all bad. This is another error.
Finally, though we deny it strenuously, some of us are censorious prudes who don’t put the scare quotes around “flaw” when assessing a person who gives a high priority to sex and (especially) who does not invest it with the social and emotional importance that we feel it deserves.
Is it an error though? We really haven’t seen enough of Joe’s actual hook-ups and pick-up techniques to be sure. Penny and Roz are the only two we even know about and both of them seem ok, though we don’t really know the details of how either started.
Other than that, we only have Joe’s own descriptions of his behavior. Which are really not to be trusted. There are plenty of creepy horn-dogs who would describe their behavior in very different terms than the women they’ve slept with.
Well, according to Willis’ bios re: Joe, “thankfully he’s pretty big on consent”, so I think we’re meant to assume Joe is pretty nice. He also backed off quickly and gracefully when Sarah said she wasn’t interested: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/harness/
But I don’t really consider Word of God or authorial intent important compared to what the story shows so I get that might not be enough evidence for some people *shrugs*
I think there’s a HUUUUGE chasm between “not a rapist” and “pretty nice”.
Like, it takes way more than not being a rapist to be a good person, sorry. Not being a rapist just means Joe isn’t automatically human trash.
You’re right I phrased that badly. But from what we know of his date with Joyce and the way he approached Sarah, he was straightforward in his intentions, and backed off without anger or passive-agressive bs when they made it clear they weren’t interested.
Not-a-rapist isn’t much of a convincing argument for making him not human trash, but I don’t see a very good argument for him being human trash either. He made a couple degrading remarks to diffuse a tense situation, blew off Danny when he wanted to talk, and he cares more about sex with lots of girls than relationships. Big deal.
I may just be a lazy bongo though. ‘Bros’ like Joe are a dime a dozen, and I don’t have the energy to get pissed at shit like this. There are people in the world who are actually malicious in their attitudes towards women and lgbt people, and the last thing Joe is is malicious. He’s the type who may even grow out of the bro phase one day, when expands his horizons a bit, or when somebody he respects tries to explain things to him, (but probably not when people call him human trash, just sayin’).
But then again Joe is a fictional character, so I guess it’s kind of a moot point.
Taking the way he approached Sarah as the example, he backed off when she practically yelled at him. And Sarah is hugely self-assertive – at least in making other people go away.
How would he react with someone less apparently confident? Or someone interested, but not ready to put out? I’m not at all saying he would blatantly rape someone. Or drug them like Ryan. But how much pressure would he apply? Push some alcohol on them to lower inhibitions? That’s where the interesting test would come.
Given Word of God, I doubt he actually would. I also doubt it’s something Willis is interested in exploring. Joe’s a mostly comic foil. Which works in the story.
In the real world though, I’d be wary as hell of someone with his behavior pattern. He’s throwing all kinds of red flags.
I’m really curious as to where you’re getting this “censorious prudes” thing, Agemegos. I think the main complaint about Joe’s sexuality is that he clearly views women as conquests, which pretty firmly paints him as a misogynist in my book (regardless of his views on consent).
I don’t hate him, but honestly I find him pretty boring. His character revolves entirely around sex, and while there’s some hidden depth with his absolute refusal to engage in anything emotional, it’s not enough to keep my interest. He’s not even annoying comic relief at this point, he just exists to talk about having sex and scold Danny for wanting to do anything else.
Joe is a side filler character. He’s present enough in the comic that we don’t forget about him, but given that the storyline revolves mainly around girls, Danny and Ethan, we’re about as likely to get an in-depth storyline about Joe as we are about Jacob – at least, for the time being.
So Joe’s going to be Joe for quite a while, same as how Mary’s going to be Mary, whether one likes it or not.
Of course everyone is free to dislike certain aspects of the storyline – personally the Billie/Ruth storylines don’t interest me at all, but it just means I’ll gloss over most of the comics when they hit that part.
I would dispute the “loyal and helpful” thing, actually; Joe’s idea of being helpful seems to entirely center around either having sex with someone (female) or encouraging them to get laid (male). But if you want anything out of him that’s not sex-related, as far as I can tell you’re out of luck.
(I don’t view “not giving Danny shit about potentially being gay or bi” as being helpful. It’s being neutral. If he was being helpful there would be actual support involved.)
He interrupted gender studies class by coming in late, and then responded to Leslie talking about the prejudice that LGBT+ people experience by angrily complaining that they were talking about anything but how he could get off to lesbians.
He repeatedly mocks Danny for having emotional problems, such as talking about having sex with Dorothy literally seconds after they broke up. When Danny tried to open up about his sexuality crisis, Joe immediately shut him down with a disgusted expression. Joe wasn’t disgusted at the idea of Danny being gay, he was disgusted at the idea of having to be a supportive friend.
Then Joe has the gall to complain that Danny’s not bringing energy to their friendship. Look at how Danny was acting around Ethan, who is actually nice to him and listens to his problems – Danny initiates hanging out, he’s playful, he’s friendly.
Joe acted disgusted and angry with Danny for not having sex with Billy, even though Danny didn’t lead with the “what if she decides it was a mistake” comment, he led by saying that he, Danny, wasn’t sure.
Joe knew that Joyce was a conservative girl looking for a nice Christian boy and went out with her looking for casual sex anyway.
I hate Joe. I have many good reasons to hate Joe. There are also many reasons that people might like Joe, so whatever, they can do their own thing. I’ll just be over here, doing my thing. Which is hating Joe.
Preach it, brother. Outside of the villain characters (Blaine, Ryan, and arguably Mary) there’s no one I hate near as much as Joe.
You can add “and he’s slept with his TA” to the list as well. Despite my gravatar, that particular ethical violation is a major issue for me due to real-world experiences.
Yeah, my real-world experiences also drive my extreme dislike of Joe. I spent a couple years having a sexuality crisis off and on (I realize now that I’m asexual). So seeing Joe telling his so-called friend: “Here are two extremely narrow boxes: straight and gay. Your sexuality fits into one of them. I will not support you while you figure out which box. The fact that you even need to figure it out is obnoxious to me” makes me see red.
Ace high five!
Yeah, that’s pretty bothersome to me as is his idea that lack of experience or interest in sexual pursuits is a “problem” that needs to be “fixed”. As well as everything you said above.
He also pretty much rubs me wrong, because of his enforcement of bro tropes. I spent far too long having jerks like that assume I support their casual misogyny and homophobia because they assumed I was male like them.
Pretty much, yeah!
When boy says yes and girl says no, we agree that it’s a rape when boy continues sexual advances.
However when girl says yes and boy says no, Joe berates Danny for not jumping at the opportunity and Willis’ tumblr crowd applauds him for this!.
Consensual sex apparently is not a thing if it is the male who is not giving the consent! Let’s hate Danny for this!
It’s amazing how certain people are so bad at reading that strip. It’s not “the girl says yes and the boy says no.” If you actually read what Danny is saying in that first panel, he says he was saying yes. He is saying he wanted to, that he would have consented. He outright states that he wanted to, in plain language. Like, emphatically. But he then says he chose not to reciprocate because he claims he had decided the girl wasn’t competent to make her half of the decision.
Which is shitty.
And so Joe calls him out on his bullshit. And Danny explains in the next strip, which apparently nobody has ever read, that he was lying and that he wasn’t ready, because that first argument was merely a poor excuse. His real reason for saying no is fine, but he had to first couch it behind calling the other person unstable.
The “Tumblr crowd” in this instance is way better at actually reading the actual webcomic, rather than going full mode MRA hulk-out at misandry ghosts.
That strip did a really good job at showing that Joe isn’t just a cliche horndog and is instead devoted to being honest in his casual relationships and is pretty aware on when being an ethical human being comes before sex, and the page following it showed pretty clearly that Danny was just bullshitting an excuse to make up for his own perceived failures as a man (or at least, that’s how I saw it). I never got the sense from that little arc that Danny was somehow a bad person for not wanting to have casual sex.
I do like the idea of misandry ghosts, though. “Wooooh, we’ve placed a curse on George Miller so he’ll paaaaaanndddeeeerrrr toooo uuuuuusssss!”
Yay! More people irritated by Joe! There were more than I thought! And some really eloquent presentations on why Joe, who’s individual intents might be good, plays like a run of the mill bro-douchebag who calls out Danny on what he perceives as flaws while never really obviously reflecting on his own. (Although I’m sure Willis will throw something at him. That is one thing I love about the writing style is that everyone seems to get their chance for self-reflection. They may not grow from it but they get their shot.)
Ditto…though I’m wondering why it was a strip where Joe wasn’t actually being obnoxious to get the ball rolling.
Eh, everybody has certain things they’re sensitive about. I like Joe and find his dumbass comments about lesbians and his phobia of feelings more amusing than anything, but people have valid reasons for being bothered by that kind of thing.
And anyhow, people don’t chose to like or dislike voluntarily, so it’s not like people need to have logical reasons for liking or disliking. Especially when it’s a fictional character who has no actual feelings to hurt.
That’s the single nicest, whitewashing interpretation of Joe I’ve ever seen.
Even just his treatment of Danny, his best friend, shows how much of a prick Joe can be. He told him that he was planning on sleeping with Dorothy not a minute after they broke up. When Danny confessed that he wasn’t ready to move on to another woman after he didn’t casual bang Billie, Joe slipped out of the room. He distances himself from his relation to Danny with other friends and admonishes Danny for not seeking sex as much as he does. When Danny tried to figure out his sexuality with him, Joe repeatedly shut down any attempt to have a conversation because he couldn’t be assed to help his best friend.
That’s not even getting into how he tried having sex with Joyce despite anyone with eyes being able to figure out that that wasn’t what she wanted, how Sarah had to scream in his face after repeated attempts to get him to stop flirting with her, how he walked late into his Gender Studies class loudly espousing his fantasies towards lesbians and then double downed when Leslie made it clear how inappropriate he was being.
Yeah it’s great how sex positive he is but it’s becoming increasingly clear that “sex positive” is “sex positive purely in relation to heterosexual men and fantasy lesbians.”
A bit to far in the other direction Spencer. Yes, Joe’s being a prick with Danny (all good points there), but Joe figured out Joyce was not going to “put out” around the time he first got punched by Mike and gave up completely on Joyce by the time she joined in, and Joe only hit on Sarah once that we know of and respectfully retracted his requests when she made it clear she wasn’t interested. Heck, Sarah didn’t even know Joe was hitting on her until Joyce showed up.
Now, I’m not saying Joe is a good person, because he’s not, but I don’t hate him. I pity him. He’s emotionally broken and refuses to get fixed, and Danny’s Great Awakening has made that painfully clear.
I just find it ridiculous how much whitewashing Joe gets, or how he’s described as being a loyal and honest friend, while other characters like Amber, Becky and Danny have all their actions demonized when they at worst occasionally act inappropriately, compared to how Joe constantly acts like a jerk.
All I can say is that everyone has their supporters and detractors, and people tend to accentuate the negative.
Me, I try to stay neutral. Only Blaine and Ryan trigger blind hate in me, for obvious reasons. The other villains trigger either disgust (like Ross Babies McIntyre), pity (like Ruth (hey, just because she’s sympathetic doesn’t mean she’s not evil)), or fascination (like Mary, but that may change when Willis gets around to explaining those wristbands).
Becky and Danny aside, Amber spends her nights physically assaulting people that she’s decided are acceptable targets.
I hold Amber closer to my heart than Joe, but I have literally no idea how you can seriously argue that Amber acts the better person.
Early on none of her actions were so out of bounds with the law that I had to cry foul; she stopped a bunch of jocks from wailing on Danny, she told some guy to put away her alcohol, she’s stopped a mugger, a pair of vandals and a bike thief, and even the most illegal things she’s done, like attacking Sal and Blaine, have far more complex reasons than just “Amber is nutso.”
I mean, yes, she has serious mental issues that she shouldn’t be dealing with by playing superhero, but the whole concept of Amazi-Girl is so fantastical to the grounded setting of DoA that you kind of have to approach it differently, as opposed to Joe just being an ass.
Even before things went down with Blaine and Sal, Amber has been explicitly trying to provoke non-violent criminals into fist fights for the purpose of stress-relief (http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/shortstuff/).
But, yeah, I agree with you. The Amazi-girl situation is complex and fantastical, whereas Joe’s assholish behavior is the normal and sadly prolific kind, so I can see how that could hit a nerve that Amber’s doesn’t, even if Amber’s is worse technically speaking.
I always figured it was a little bit of acclimation. Joe can be so douche, but has ALWAYS been such, often seeming to try and be one note by choice and effort, that everyone’s just used to him being a jerk. Some of the others show more variety to their personalities and so people react to them more. I’m not saying that’s what it is, just that I’ve seen it happen in real life and its an interesting thing to witness.
The “sex positivity” angle especially annoys me because I don’t think Roz gets enough credit for her sex positivity. Which: yes, she does very much need to work on herself as an ally to LGBT+ people and to be more open-minded about people who don’t share her values, but Roz is actually aware that there are more than two sexual orientations, volunteers her free time to help people access birth control and STD prevention, and made at least a token effort to help Joyce with her trauma. Roz’s beliefs about sex need further development but she’s miles ahead of Joe. But like, I realize it’s probably mostly confirmation bias but I feel like I’m always seeing “Joe doesn’t care if Danny is gay! Joe is open-minded and always gets consent!” while with Roz it’s “Her yelling at Joyce that one time invalidates all the advocacy she’s ever done.”
“I’m not sure what people dislike so much about Joe.”
Well he can be a pretty callous jerk sometimes
“He practices safe, consensual sex.”
That’s a good thing. Generally on the bare minimum of human decency, but a good thing nonetheless.
He is friendly and one of the nicer people in the cast.
Except when someone tries to use him for emotional support. Or if someone hotter happens to walk by http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/billingsworth/
“He seems entirely unbothered by race, creed, gender, or sexuality.”
Well his attitude towards women is to objectify them. He has a point system and everything.
“He is loyal and helpful. He is extremely honest and upfront.”
He’s helpful? I mean he might help a friend get laid, but outside of that, he seems pretty intent on being pretty unhelpful to Danny. I’ll give you honest though.
“His one “flaw” is that he has prioritized sex in his life. How is this such a horrendous thing that all his good qualities should be ignored?”
I wouldn’t say his one flaw is prioritizing his sex life. Depending on his attitudes towards other things, that’s not a flaw in of itself. But it is kinda of whitewashing his character by saying he’s one of the nicest, caring characters when we frequently see him act callous towards Danny, and he’s also frequently rude to the entire gender studies class. I’d say one of his bigger flaws is an immaturity regarding anything to do with emotions. He’s about as mature as Walky in that regard. (Plus the whole objectifying women, especially viewing lesbians as mostly a porn thing).
Not saying that he can’t be entertaining sometimes. But to say he’s a great person with only one “flaw” is a really rosy view of his character.
Replace the name “Ethan” with, say, “Amber” or “Dorothy” and replace the words “him” with “her” in Joe’s speech bubbles and the joke would be exactly the same. Look, I hate homophobia just as much as the next person, but I really think you’re seeing something that isn’t actually there in this case.
Don’t be silly Joe, if it was a date, Danny wouldn’t be back at all that night.
He would show up at 2pm the next day, talking about all the sex that he didn’t have…because he’s Danny
Very heavy petting.
I thought there’s no use getting
Into heavy petting
It only leads to trouble
And seat wetting
I’m sorry…
Not sorry
“Wrong door Danny… That’s the closet!” *budum tsh* goodnite
“Ethan! What are you doing in there?”
Becky blew up the other closet I was staying in, so…
So you’re trying to get my closet detonated, too?
No closet is safe. Soon they will all be blown up.
Sounds like a plot that Amazi-Girl needs to put a stop to, before the whole building is brought down!
LOL Amazi-Girl has almost found a way to stop Becky orbital-bombarding closets from orbit, only to discover the closet in Ruth’s room has also been demolished by an unknown party…
…Multiple times…
joe has gone completely bonkers and is pretending to text on a blank index card
alternatively: reading his jokes off of card
His hand was really shaky when he wrote em so he figures if he shakes the card they’ll be easier to read.
You just reminded me of the cue card scene from the first WAYNE’S WORLD movie.
His nervousness is only betrayed by the shaking in his hands. Stand-up comedy is nerve-wracking.
Heh, I was thinking the same thing.
Joe would make a great dad…wait…
I’m sure Danny is laughing because both he and Joe know that the first date is only snuggles.
Joe is texting, right? Not just tapping on an index card?
We’ve all missed the secret plot point where Joe is nervous about a presentation he has coming up. Why? Because he doesn’t get enough screentime. No one cares about his problems. :[
Hopefully a Joecentric plot won’t revolve around an ex-girlfriend. Given his sex life an ex coming back to cause problems would be rather too predictable.
Nah, all of Joe’s girls leave as happy customers.
That implies Joe ever graduates from the hook-up portion to the dating portion.
Joe went on a date once that we know of, and actually got hurt pretty bad.
In the face.
Yeah, his date with Mike didn’t go well.
That’s just how Mike flirts.
It’s a white phone of some kind, but i’m not familiar with ones that put the virtual keyboard up in the landscape orientation.
My iPhone is white, and it does that.
Most any current smartphone will do that, as well as a lot of the old ones too.
Daniel the Human has a Blackberry which has a QWERTY keyboard when on it’s side, standard text keyboard when vertical & slide out keyboard with actual buttons built in too…
what have you done
Nervous laughter is difficult to hide behind. Exhibit A.
Dina recommends doors instead.
The important thing here is that Joe cares for his buddy and is promoting safe sex.
**rushes off to ItsWalky to get final downloads**
**gets teary eyed**
Welp…
Something seems off about Joe’s face.
The lack of female faces within 12 inches of it?
I think it’s the eyebrows – or, rather, the eyebrows being that high up makes it really odd and noticeable that he has no sclera.
At least they’re actually on his face.
FAAAAAACE!!!
No. Stop that.
I think we’re just used to seeing his eyes looking straight at whoever he’s talking to. since he has such small eyes (stranded for dudes in Willis’s art-style) and such a large face, it looks odd to us.
Actually, there looking straight at the phone in his hands. At least I think that’s a phone. It might be an index card and Joe’s going cuckoo.
I think it’s basically just that his eyebrows are too high – a “large face” isn’t hard to believe when it’s a large forehead above the eyebrows, but a large distance between the eyebrows and the bottom of the eye makes his face hard to believe.
Is that a Phone or is that a flat piece of paper he pretending to play Angry birds on ?
It’s the new smartphone from Apple, iPaper ~_~
It’s Joe. He’s probably playing “Leisure Suit Larry”.
More likely some terrible eroge.
And I thought Ethan was the resident comedian of this universe.
Joe thinking: Yup, this is shaping up to be a typical Danny relationship.
I’m probably the only guy who’s interested, but why can’t you access the old site anymore? Did you lose the password, did the server change owners, or what?
Hell, the old site’s been somewhat broken for a while for me. Just curious.
Joe is really tired of all your awkardness, Danny.
It’d build so much character for Joe right now if what he was looking up “how to help my closeted friend come to terms with his sexuality without it being really weird.”
But let’s be honest, he’s probably hitting up a booty call.
My advice for dates is usually “do lots of things I wouldn’t do or you won’t have any fun.”
I’m pretty boring.
I find the best way to do that is to say something funny, Joe.
Some years after graduation, a coffee shop meeting…
Danny: “So, why didn’t we ever just, like, you know, three-way?”
Danny, Amber, Ethan: “… … … DAMMIT!!!”
Cruel. I’m still holding out hope for things to develop into a nice poly relationship, although I doubt it’ll happen.
Perfect gravatar is perfect.
Because they wouldn’t enjoy it? Ethan wouldn’t be into Amber, Amber would want but couldn’t have Ethan, and it’d screw with Danny’s head since he’s super monogamous.
fucking danny.
Ethan: I’m interested in your proposal and wish to hear more.
Wow. Joyce and Walky is finally over. Thanks, Willis, for completing it! 🙂
So the Walkyverse finally comes to an end, 18 years after its inception.
I only got into It’s Walky! this January and loved it. It’s my favourite of Willis’ work, despite Dumbing of Age probably being a way better work in terms of art and character. Even today, over a decade after its conclusion, it still stands out as one of the best and most unique webcomics out there.
Yes Joe good job getting Danny primed, now he will be (much more) awkward all night.
Man, there’s a lot of vitriol in here today. Just gonna stay out of it.
A wise choice.
I hope one day to be as wise as you.
Or, you can just skip certain threads.
Personally I think the thing with Joe is that a while back we were offered Joe as a surprising alternative to Walky’s blatant gender stereotyping, and it stuck in a lot of people’s minds: Joe is less sexist than Walky! It was a delightful subversion of expectations and carries a lot of weight in the mind. People are also apparently giving him points for not being a rapist, as if that’s a noble achievement instead of the absolute bare minimum that should be expected of humans.
Confirmation bias has since made it easy to latch onto moments like this, where Joe isn’t being blatantly homophobic, at the expense of his other moments which have been so lovingly curated here in the comics.
Joe also suffers from his previous incarnation, where he was roughly the same. He did eventually get more grounded storylines, but his core personality (being very much into the wimmens) didn’t change much. So there is a slight bit of projection, similar to how people praise Mike as the greatest thing since Dexter and Monkey Master.
Yeah, that’s how it is for me, anyway. Sex happy dudes, while nowhere near as generally poorly written as other groups, do tend to get lumped into “wacky comic relief” roles, so seeing Joe often act as a voice of reason and his desires treated with maturity was nice.
I mean, Joe’s sex positivity is great. It’s everything else about him I don’t like.
Agreed. I mean I like Joe overall but wow the evidence compiled here was really compelling and somehow it had slipped my mind. So I tried to explain why I thought that might be 🙂
To be fair while Not Being a Rapist, is a basic decency kind of thing it IS a step up from original incarnation of Joe, an incarnation those of us following the Walkyverse reposting have been recently reminded of. (while Joe never raped anyone he certainly sexually harassed and assaulted them in the name of comic humor).
That’s so depressing that I can’t even think of a good response.
I just wanna say that I don’t think Joe is being a jerk here. This is my take on it: Right now he’s kinda absorbed in his phone, so maybe he’s not making the BEST facial expressions right now…but his first comment was a joke. He was teasing Danny, and hoping for a bit of banter. He made the mistake in assuming Danny was comfortable in his sexuality. I suppose one could say that this was a dick move considering their previous talk about sex with men. When Danny got all awkward about it, Joe did the whole “dude if you have to explain the joke it ain’t funny no more” thing. Then he added that if it was a date, he would want Danny and Ethan to fuck ’til the break of dawn. (baby got it going on! *ahem*) Danny got flustered and giggled, to which Joe was irritated that Danny thought his positive message was a joke.
I think people are jumping to the conclusion that he’s being a jerk. That’s understandable, Joe has been a jerk in the past, so I can see people assuming that his actions in the future will be similar. But guys–I think he’s okay in this one.
Think he might be hurt that Danny’s going to a party that he was specifically told to not attend?
Sure he doesn’t like Joyce but dude doesn’t look happy here.
No one likes being snubbed even to a party you wouldn’t want to attend in the first place
Yeah, I definitely did not get the impression of jerk from Joe at all. He was just joking around with his friend. It’s not his fault Danny is a Danny.
Yeah…I’m always down with criticizing Joe when he’s being an ass, but….this isn’t one of those moments.
(I have no real criticism for Danny, here, either. He’s ridiculously awkward, but that’s not a crime…)
Nachiiiitooooooooooos.
Is it too spoilerish to say I prefer Bobby&Dorothy to Walky&Dorothy?
Technically, given that much of the fun here is the interaction between Joyce and Dorothy, Bobby and Dorothy isn’t that big a stretch. 😛
Ethan always finishes inside… or he wouldn’t if he wasn’t a virgin.
Also E/D Slipshine please!
Whoa. So Joe is on to him. Danny, you´ve been danned… See, he´s so kind as to remind you to use protection (poppers?) in such case, without hesitation (or flinching). He´s got you covered. Do not fear, shrimp.
P.D. I didn´t think Joe would be so “direct”. Does he know about Ethan? or he´s just observant?
Joe has only met Ethan once where I think the latter was introduced as Joyce’s boyfriend. He has never seen Danny and Ethan interact.
I think Joe is just teasing him. He’d probably say the same thing no matter who was at the door.
Well, after Danny all-but-came-out to him, anyway [ http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/extracredit/ and far more importantly and why Joe is lovable, the next comic.]
He likely wouldn’t have thought to joke about guys before that 😛
Why does it look like joe is reading from a cue card.