It’s just sad she has to self analyze after sleeping in a bed with another man platonically fully clothed. That’s such a terrible sin. She’s burning in hell for that one. I hope she can stop feeling this guilt or fear or whatever someday.
Sugar is poison. A chronic poison, not an acute poison. It very very slowly destroys your liver, but only in sufficiently high doses.
And computers are magic. Cast cryptic incantations into the command line to summon daemons. Watch how filling pages upon pages with runes transforms the physical world.
It’s the processed sugar – when the sugar becomes unbound from cellular structure – that is harmful. The sugars in smoothies are more harmful than, say, eating an apple, orange or banana.
Processed sugar is in nearly every factory-processed food-stuff we buy. In the UK, it’s even in most commercial mouth rinses. Which is mad. IMO, it’s one of the main cause of the obesity problems the UK is suffering. Having commercial manufacturing setting the healthy eating guidelines doesn’t help.
I seem to recall the issue isn’t ‘processed’ sugar or not. Get just as much ‘real’ sugar and you’ll suffer the same problems. There’s just more processed sugar for some reason (Hint corn surplus in the USA, at least for folks int he USA itself).
All organic matter is based on the sugar molecule. Fruits and vegetables are straight sugar for fast energy, add another atom and you get protein for long term energy, another atom to that and you get the fats for energy storage.
I remember a theory that we like sugar so that we will eat fruit. (And then we went and invented something even MORE sweet than fruit, and our tastebuds are like woah.) Science??
And the game that forces kids to save the world by facing their most horrible secrets that would otherwise kill them and leave their bodies plastered on telephone poles for all of their classmates and parents to see.
But Splenda is Super-Processed Sugar and bound with Chlorine.
I am convinced its poisonous, since the whole class of organochlorines ( think DDT ) is dangerous.
I dont want my body trying to incorporate a sugar molecule, into its structure and getting chlorine burns.
I dont want my mitochondria tryng to bun that splenda as sugar ,and getting free-radical damage and early aging.
They keep sticking Splenda into more foods secretly without even a “diet” labeling. ( this is because its more stable, than nutrasweet and can remain sweet with cooking )
“Sucralose is a synthetic organochlorine sweetener (OC) that is a common ingredient in the world’s food supply. ….Sucralose and one of its hydrolysis products were found to be mutagenic ( that means CANCER ) at elevated concentrations in several testing methods. Cooking with sucralose at high temperatures was reported to generate chloropropanols, a potentially toxic class of compounds. …. Taken together, these findings indicate that sucralose is not a biologically inert compound.”
For Ethan maybe — that self-loathing and self-rejection are just painful to watch. What are the chances that he applies that lesson to himself? (I give it some pretty bad odds, but I’m kinda cynical that way.)
sigh. These two poor kids — brainwashed and beaten down and trying to find a way. For as much as they both drive me nuts, I want to just give them a big hug and tell them that they’re okay… better than OK.
This is why I like the relationship between these two – not in a ‘shippy’ way (this is no ‘Joythan’), but in a therapeutic way. This is the relationship they both need right now – they’re learning about themselves, and healing, in a safe environment. Eventually, this relationship will come apart, and they’ll move on to better ones. And they’ll be better people for having had it.
THE EXPERIMENT HAS BECOME SELF-AWARE. ABORT ABORT!!!
DAMNIT, CAROL. I TOLD YOU THE J-5 WASN’T READY OUT ON IT’S OWN. WE’VE ALREADY LOST J-3 AND I KNEW WE WERE FLYING TOO CLOSE TO THE SUN!!!! OUR HUBRIS WAS OUR UNDOING, CAROL!!!
That reminds me of a conversation long ago with a very religious coworker. I’m not gonna bore you all with the lead-up but it ended up that, when he would, say, cut his finger, he never had (or would, he said) put his finger into his mouth. “Why not?” we asked him, since it seemed a pretty natural reaction.
“Well, because you can’t be too careful these days.”
“What do you mean?”
“Well, like with AIDS and stuff.”
Dude had internalized that whole thing about passing AIDS on from body fluids (it was the mid-Nineties) but had never actually thought critically about it until we stared at him in disbelief and told him there was no way for just his finger to have AIDS.
That’s the problem with religions – to many of them make simplifications, but believe that those simplification are truth itself.
Science also makes simplifications, but it realizes that they are simplifications, and tries to ensure that the simplifications become closer and closer to actual reality. That is essentially what the scientific method does – if finds better and better explanations for how reality works, and even if those explanations are simplifications, new explanations explain things better than the old ones. It’s also why newer theories are more complex than old ones.
I can see where you are coming from but I disagree on a few essential points. Specifically, I’d say the view of simplification, both in regards to Science and Religion. Religionwise, I’d say that with it you’re actually generally ascribing to a few key points about what the world is and how it works. A Christian must hold a major role for Jesus, as a Buddhist should have some sense of the 8 fold path. Beyond that however, there is a great deal of person liberty as to how we should go about expanding on that; Christians have pretty widely varying views on birthcontrol, politics and even what God is and how he operates in the universe but they are all commited to a handful of points that they share together. Theologists are willing to get very detailed about how those points should be interpreted however.
Science on the otherhand is theories. If you’re going by a serious scientific meta-theory, you likely hold that we can’t “know” much but (to quote a famous old Greek fellow) we can eliminate certain ideas that don’t work. Usually this means taking most of the elements that seemed to work and changing just the minimum but you can get pretty radical changes to thought and understanding that will invalidate a great deal of thought.
So, by contrast, I’d say the difference between Religion and Science is that Religion is a series of specific commitments we have in our worldview while Science is a means of testing theories and worldviews.
The problem then for Joyce is not that religion over simplified things but rather that her specific branch demanded several, very specific commitments both metaphysical and ethical that have put a lot of strain on her. Further, now that she is out in a new and radically different culture, some of these beliefs seem like they do not hold for most and aren’t the best for one’s mental well being.
*I deleted the quote by that old famous Greek fellow. It was Xenophanes; “Gods of course did not reveal everything to mortals from the beginning, but in time by searching they improve their discoveries”.
Removed since while cool and slightly relevant, it was a bit rudimentary for an explaination of scientific theory and because the line on divine knowledge might have been taken as a comment as religion as a whole (which it shouldn’t be: he was just rejecting the specific Greek tradition of divine inspiration but he had probably the closest you’ll see to a Judeo-Christian God in Ancient Greek Philosophy as a conclusion, further proving my point that it’s not necessarily simplification but rather Religion is a commitment as to how things operate).
This is probably the best explanation of science and religion I’ve ever seen. Copying this for later use. Do you have a source, or did you make these observations yourself?
That’s not a problem with religon, it’s a problem with JOYCE’s religion. Joyce’s religion is a religion based on not doing things. The most extreme form of this phenomena can be found in the rapture churches. The sum total of that religion is to abstain from a long list of things while waiting to be raptured. Actually living life leads to the possibility of temptation which leads to the possibility of not being raptured. So the religion is to quite literally sit around and do nothing until the world ends.
Joyce clearly subscribes to some form of this, because her entire spiritual focus is upon not doing things, and then feeling horrible for having the urge to do things. It’s not merely a terrible way to live, but a terrible religion. It gives her no hope or strength, just constant free floating anxiety.
You realize that the ‘not-doing-anything’ churches are just a spin on the old Gnostic beliefs–that everything in the world is debased and evil and so on, right? All of this has been done before.
I wonder if her parents thought they were raising a good little culture warrior. Basically parents raise their children with the expectation that they will come of age, go out into the world, and (metaphorically) slay the heathens. They learn all the apologetics, learn all the correct bible verses, get all beefed up and prepared for spiritual warfare. Of course they fail miserably, because they are taught a specific script and real life does not follow a script. When you are being raised that way everything is simple with a clear answer. When someone says, “I don’t believe in Jesus” you have a rehearsed answer (probably C.S. Lewis’s trilemma) and at the end of it you expect to be able to say “BOOYA! IN YO’ FACE ATHEIST!”to their stunned silence. But, of course, that’s not how people (or reality for that matter) actually works.
So when life starts going off script… well a lot of people wind up having breakdowns. There’s nothing more overwhelming than (for example) going to an art museum and seeing Egyptian pottery that’s older than what you’ve been taught the world is. When the training wheels of life come off there’s just a constant barrage of big and small things that erode away at the scripts a person raised like this has internalized. And since their entire world view is built on those scripts, a massive identity crisis will happen (and generally gets resolved by pushing the cognitive-dissonance as far back in the depths of the mind as possible and soldiering on, or by rejecting everything and becoming one of those evil liberal secular humanist atheists).
Of course the fact that this is pretty demonstrably a failure is (in my opinion) why movements like Quiverfull emerged. Now, instead of sending kids out into the world, they’re keeping them at home (and thus protected from contradictory information) and attempting to simply outbreed.
But Optimus can CTRL + C his brai- wait, couldn’t Jesus do that too?
Doesn’t that make both of their sacrifices kind of worthless?
Waiiiit, if Jesus is GOD, and knows there’s an afterlife AND can just come back to life, how is it even a sacrifice?
Brb guise, waxing all the hair off my body, for the sins of humanity and whatnot.
Or for charity.
Whatever.
I doubt she’ll do anything that actually carries severe negative consequences, but she may regret even the most minor transgression in the emotional state she’s in.
The path to damnation is wide and comfortable and well-trodden.
What Joyce is feeling here is perfectly consistent with her upbringing. Nobody claimed that it was easy following the path of righteousness. Or whatever this is supposed to be.
Feeling guilty about hugging Ethan is like a bulimic stuffing herself with raw cabbage and then putting her finger in her throat. This was not going to make you fat anyway, dearie.
Ehn. The real world is lacking in examples of people who were raised with Christian values in regards to Chastity and as a result have certain elements of awkwardness and fear that people who were not raised with the same strick boundries don’t have: Joyce has been homeschooled, I suspect her parents frowned on courtship at all and that doesn’t give her a lot of experience with what is harmless and what is foreplay to a swandive into a firey lake. Hence her reaction and perhaps some discomfort with the views that she has adopted (though not necessarily been taught).
The thing I love about Chastity? It’s a temporary virtue. When are you supposed to be Honest? Always. When are you supposed to be Loyal? Always. When are you supposed to be Kind? Always. When are you supposed to be Chaste? Up to a certain point, where you’ve found the right mate and received God’s blessing. Then, you’re expected to put aside Chastity and FUCK LIKE BUN – sorry, “Be Fruitful And Multiply”. It’s pointless to agonize over Chastity because, at some point, it goes away. You always have that to look forward to.
Chaste is not the same as celibate. A monogamous relationship is chaste, though some would say it is so only when procreative. So one doesn’t give up chastity when entering into a lifelong monogamous relationship. So chastity is a lifelong endeavor, not a prelude.
Many religions/cultures call upon people to be celibate until marriage, though mileage varies, mainly in that it applies to women and not men.
I’m looking at this with cautious optimism that maybe this is her realizing certain things that might move her towards a more moderate view that might allow for her to live better. So less pathos and more “Good, that seems to be a decent first step.”
I agree with you . This can be very healthy, help joyce break through conditioning and be comfortable in her own skin with a boy. I think this can be mutual and therapeutic all around . Ethan helping her will in turn help him to accept himself.
I can even see Joyce eventually being able to help Ethan accept himself and and meet men — in a way that Amber could not.
That would be adorable.
But I am also afraid in this panel , she might short-circuit this and dump him.
Dump him, because she thinks being with Ethan, even innocently with huggings , is a dead end for her.
And not a dead-end because hes gay. A dead-end because She hates herself for allowing herself to feel simple pleasures.
At least Ethan is providing some form of help. Not much, mind you. What Joyce needs cannot be handled by one person, and definately not by anyone under the age of 24.
I ain’t afraid of you…..Wait a damn minute. I ain’t afraid of nobody. I’m gonna say it, and if you don’t like it then kiss my ass. Joyce I hope this helps you feel better. I love you just the way you are.
Poor Joyce. those Fundie parents of hers have really messed with her head. They’re not protective, they’re controlling and using their religion as an excuse. There is no such thing as being pure and free of sin and those who aspire to or claim that they are are either fools or liars.
Jesus was quoted as saying: “Damnit, mom, I’m trying to make a point here!”
Just kidding. The point was how adultery requires two adulterers, and why should only one of them be culpable? Covet thou not thy neighour’s wife; love thy neighbour!
In certain Pentacostal circles there is a teaching that sinless perfection is an achievable goal. It must be a terrible burden. My belief in my Christian days was more mainstream evangelical: that we are all sinners, just that some of us are forgiven. Life was filled with constant repentance and pleas for forgiveness after each “sin”. The moral standards were such that pretty much everything that comes natural to a human being was sin; we called it the “sin nature”. Still I think that’s less horrible than believing that you actually *can* be perfect, and always feeling guilty, and fearing Hell, when you come short of it.
I’m thinking that the “friends who do this stuff, AND WORSE, all the time..” comment, doesn’t really seem to me to be a very good omen of awakening here.
Joyce has so far to go.
And until Ethan comes out, so does he.
Talk about enablers.
Especially, with the self hatred line thrown in at the end.
But Joyce was raised with “sex should only be for procreation” attitude. So was my grandmother, which was why my grandfather took a mistress after my grandmother’s hysterectomy.
I was taught by the church that sex was supposed to be wonderfully pleasurable, and in fact sacred, within the bonds of matrimony. Procreation was one purpose, but not the only one. Birth control was fine for married couples. “Meant for Pleasure” was the name of a book that made the rounds of couples retreats and the like; I was not to read it because I wasn’t married. This was in the early ’80’s; it seems like fundamentalism is more sex-negative now. There were no side hugs!
I wonder how many such cases involve a woman who was asexual, only did it because she considered it her marital duty, and was glad for the excuse to stop? Sad all around.
History is full of people who had to lie back and think of . As far as asexual or non-straight people, it did not help matters much if they were men, actually.
As someone who has physically recognizable reactions to dealing with stress, I appreciate the detail put in to establish Joyce’s. Impressive storytelling, Willis.
Commenter’s note: My tone of voice is not meant to be snappy or angry.
Tapping my fingers together to remind myself that a past injury should not still hurt or burden me, and that phantom pain is only in my head isn’t cute. I was referring to Joyce holding the hand she injured at the party way back when as a way of physically, and perhaps subconsciously, managing her stress. She has done this before when clearly stressed.
Poor Joyce. I know those “I’ve been brianwashed, and I’m not letting myself realize it yet, but I’m having internal conflict about my brainwashed beliefs, so I must be a terrible person who deserves to die” feels.
My faith didn’t survive it’s experience with the greater world. I’ll be interested to see what happens with Joyce, whether she chooses another religion, abandons them altogether, or chooses a less, what’s the word? INSANE version of Christianity to follow.
Or indirectly makes it better (by establishing herself as an example of how judgemental zealotry can turn someone into a horrible person, thereby causing Joyce to deliberately choose to not be like her).
Sometimes a clearly-defined Nemesis can be helpful.
Panel 3 Ethan; so sweet and compassionate. He cares for her, enjoys the cuddling as well. Maybe they are each what the other needs right now; someone to be intimate with non-sexually, while they each grapple with their own sexuality. It is an odd relationship, but maybe not so unhealthy as the commentariat seems to think.
If Joyce were a trans, the resulting head explosions would cause a nuclear holocaust all across the world where Willis fans could be found the moment the comic revealing it went up.
I think that Mary will pull some nasty $#!t, and somewhere in it will be an expectation that Joyce, as a fellow emphatically religious person, will back her play. And Joyce will make a different choice, backing her friends despite the evidence of premarital (or same-gender) hanky panky, because of the realization that sometimes…just having someone to hold is important enough.
How’s that for the long game? 😉
For the strip itself, she’s deeply conflicted, but it’s still a growth moment, so Yay!
I don’t know if Joyce’s endgame is to disbelieve in religion or to become more lenient with it and enjoy life
Or the Sarah Method- Snap and suck a billion dicks
I’m banking on #2 or the Sarah Method
As heart-rending as all this is, does Joyce’s brand of Christianity not allow opposite sex cuddles? Because that is as sad as it is confusing to me. Cuddles are the best thing. Sometimes you just need human contact, be it lover or friend.
Yeah, that what religions and totalitarian ideologies do. They make you feel guilty about something thats so integral to you (in this case lust), that you might as well feel guilty about being alive. Then they offer you cure for this imaginary disease you supposedly have, in Joyce’s case it Jesus forgiveness. But since you stave away guilt only for a little while, and they have only cure, they’ve got you tighter that drug dealer got an addict.
And that’s the big problem I have with Christianity in general, and the reason I’m more on the wiccan/pagan part of the religious spectrum. “An ye harm none, do as thou will.”
I think it’s less that it is Sinful and more that Joyce was homeschooled and sheltered with her parents frowning on dating (because of what it might lead to). So, as a result, Joyce sees it as kind of a slippery slope to “premarital-hanky panky” since she never dated or had to set the boundries herself.
Now, her parents would probably encourage her to go out and date and get married soon but Joyce has to get used to that sort of whip-lash and figure out where her boundries are (and learn that she does have the strength to set them somewhere comfortable for her).
that might be true for some people.
as someone who has been raised in a rather extreme christian environment, I have to say: it is just as likely that those are the ones having problems with expressing their sexuality for years and years no matter how openminded one tries to be (and I am not only speaking for myself but also for a bunch of childhood friends…)
In panel #1, Joyce is shown with her arms around Ethan, and in panel #2, Joyce remarks that she is “sinful and weak”… and then there is the way she is holding her right wrist in panels #4 and 5. Did Joyce get a little bold, and slide one hand under his shirt (or lower)? And is she now remembering the passage about how “If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” Matthew 5:30 (KJV)
Let’s not do anything rash, Joyce. Remember that the Son of Man, the God of the New Testament, is a loving, forgiving God.
EVERYBODY is forgetting the one quote by Sarah.
“I swear, one day that girl is gonna snap and suck like, a billion dicks”
THE DICKVENT HORIZON HAS COME
THERE IS NO STOPPING THE COCKSUCK CATASTROPHE
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Poor Joyce. You shouldn’t hate youself for wanting to have sex.
Or hugs. Hugs are the best!
Aw, shoot, where’d my Ethan avvy go?
Still there. Somehow I have Sarah.
I have a better Ethan avatar. Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
and all the gigidies went in to it
Indeed. I covet your Ethan/Danny grav.
Maybe a HUGS BOSON?
… You have made me weep tears of joy. Or else going to Ikea left me a bit worn out and stressed. Still a good pun though.
She may be fearful that she will fall into temptation. I see fear in her face, not hate.
It’s just sad she has to self analyze after sleeping in a bed with another man platonically fully clothed. That’s such a terrible sin. She’s burning in hell for that one. I hope she can stop feeling this guilt or fear or whatever someday.
Your avatar and comment choice seem incongruous
Damn, beat me to it.
Although wanting sex with Ethan should cause some negative emotion.
You are reading my mind.
Hook me up with him
I prefer my sweetness to be all natural.
What do you mean by that?
I’m not a big fan of saccharine relationships.
New studies show that artificial sweetness can lead to relationship diabetes.
Joyce should try some all natural cane sweetness…. That, could read way worse than intended, but I’ma post it anyways.
di-beetus
Joyce wants Ethan to give her some cane sugar…
I prefer splenda.
yuck! Tastes like chlorine!
Just add sodium and you get salty instead. 😛
Because it is chlorine.
Its an organochlorine, but Im sure its not a pesticide like the rest of them
Uh-huh. I’m sure the megacorps aren’t poisoning the food supply with pesticides dressed up as sugar.
(Why yes, I do believe that the world today is essentially Shadowrun without magic or techno-magic, why do you ask?)
Sugar is poison. A chronic poison, not an acute poison. It very very slowly destroys your liver, but only in sufficiently high doses.
And computers are magic. Cast cryptic incantations into the command line to summon daemons. Watch how filling pages upon pages with runes transforms the physical world.
I feel like that second paragraph is a reference to Shin Megami Tensei.
Also, don’t we need sugar for, like, energy and stuff? I mean, we are hardwired to like it, so there must be some advantage to it.
Sugar is bound naturally to food-stuffs.
It’s the processed sugar – when the sugar becomes unbound from cellular structure – that is harmful. The sugars in smoothies are more harmful than, say, eating an apple, orange or banana.
Processed sugar is in nearly every factory-processed food-stuff we buy. In the UK, it’s even in most commercial mouth rinses. Which is mad. IMO, it’s one of the main cause of the obesity problems the UK is suffering. Having commercial manufacturing setting the healthy eating guidelines doesn’t help.
I know nothing about Shin Megami Tensei.
Not really, in Unix and its derivatives like Linux. background processes are called daemons.
I seem to recall the issue isn’t ‘processed’ sugar or not. Get just as much ‘real’ sugar and you’ll suffer the same problems. There’s just more processed sugar for some reason (Hint corn surplus in the USA, at least for folks int he USA itself).
All organic matter is based on the sugar molecule. Fruits and vegetables are straight sugar for fast energy, add another atom and you get protein for long term energy, another atom to that and you get the fats for energy storage.
I remember a theory that we like sugar so that we will eat fruit. (And then we went and invented something even MORE sweet than fruit, and our tastebuds are like woah.) Science??
Shin Megami Tensei. The series that teaches kids that they can cast magical spells by putting a gun up to their heads and pulling the trigger! 😀
(For the record, I love that series, least ways the Persona portion. But damned if it isn’t easy to make fun of for its quirky/symbolic bits)
And the game that forces kids to save the world by facing their most horrible secrets that would otherwise kill them and leave their bodies plastered on telephone poles for all of their classmates and parents to see.
But Splenda is Super-Processed Sugar and bound with Chlorine.
I am convinced its poisonous, since the whole class of organochlorines ( think DDT ) is dangerous.
I dont want my body trying to incorporate a sugar molecule, into its structure and getting chlorine burns.
I dont want my mitochondria tryng to bun that splenda as sugar ,and getting free-radical damage and early aging.
They keep sticking Splenda into more foods secretly without even a “diet” labeling. ( this is because its more stable, than nutrasweet and can remain sweet with cooking )
We should not consume the stuff! I am not just paranoid, here is the science
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24219506
“Sucralose is a synthetic organochlorine sweetener (OC) that is a common ingredient in the world’s food supply. ….Sucralose and one of its hydrolysis products were found to be mutagenic ( that means CANCER ) at elevated concentrations in several testing methods. Cooking with sucralose at high temperatures was reported to generate chloropropanols, a potentially toxic class of compounds. …. Taken together, these findings indicate that sucralose is not a biologically inert compound.”
Nope nope nope nope.
Poor girl
*hugs Joyce*
🙁
stupid auto emoticons, get out of here, no one loves you
:c…
Everything changes. Nothing ever stays the same. The real question is what tomorrow brings.
Sudden self-revelation, go!
I’m not sure it’s a revelation. I think that she is growing in maturity, but that growth comes slowly.
And painfully.
doesn’t seem like a sudden revelation, more like acceptance vs denial.
She has been thinking about this for a while.
An epiphany?
For Ethan maybe — that self-loathing and self-rejection are just painful to watch. What are the chances that he applies that lesson to himself? (I give it some pretty bad odds, but I’m kinda cynical that way.)
No, not an epiphany. Just a crack in her foundation.
oh, joyce, here we go
i think this will turn out well.
but at what cost
Good question
the cost of her harsh upbringing. it shall be sacrificed. there will be a cleansing through fire. and she will be free of hr religious shackles.
either that, or fibbage.
What the hell?
At the cost of a thousand “Damn you Willis!”s
“Damn you Willie?”
sigh. These two poor kids — brainwashed and beaten down and trying to find a way. For as much as they both drive me nuts, I want to just give them a big hug and tell them that they’re okay… better than OK.
Yeah, pretty much that. Though there are many times I want to hug Joyce.
There are also many times I wanna put her in a german suplex.
That’s sweet!
This is why I like the relationship between these two – not in a ‘shippy’ way (this is no ‘Joythan’), but in a therapeutic way. This is the relationship they both need right now – they’re learning about themselves, and healing, in a safe environment. Eventually, this relationship will come apart, and they’ll move on to better ones. And they’ll be better people for having had it.
meanwhile her parents are just sitting behind a monitor at their house watching a live video feed just freaking out.
“Oh no, SHE’S THINKING FOR HERSELF! SEND IN THE DRONES!!!”
No, they’re not… They’re evil. Just protective.
Sufficiently advanced idiocy is indistinguishable from malice.
THE EXPERIMENT HAS BECOME SELF-AWARE. ABORT ABORT!!!
DAMNIT, CAROL. I TOLD YOU THE J-5 WASN’T READY OUT ON IT’S OWN. WE’VE ALREADY LOST J-3 AND I KNEW WE WERE FLYING TOO CLOSE TO THE SUN!!!! OUR HUBRIS WAS OUR UNDOING, CAROL!!!
But wait… If her parents are also experiments, who is the experimenter?
Her parents are the experimenters. How’d you get the impression they were experiments.
But they were experiments. Their parents were their experimenters.
The mighty Faz!
Wait, if Joyce is one of four siblings, how is she J-5?
you don’t wanna know what happened to J-4
You mean this one?
better yet what if at some point they create model XJ- 9… k that was a bit of stretch, yet I regret nothing.
She used to be one of six, but then through some inexplicable twist in the fabric of reality, two of her siblings ceased to have ever existed.
I can’t determine if she’s feeling herself up in panels 4 & 5 or holding her wrist or something else.
Naturally, I prefer possibility #1.
“I have such an amazing rack, and I’ve yet to have it fondled. I didn’t even know it felt good until 2 weeks ago!”
Putting your hand on your own breast isn’t “feeling yourself up.”
unless you’re joyce
That reminds me of a conversation long ago with a very religious coworker. I’m not gonna bore you all with the lead-up but it ended up that, when he would, say, cut his finger, he never had (or would, he said) put his finger into his mouth. “Why not?” we asked him, since it seemed a pretty natural reaction.
“Well, because you can’t be too careful these days.”
“What do you mean?”
“Well, like with AIDS and stuff.”
Dude had internalized that whole thing about passing AIDS on from body fluids (it was the mid-Nineties) but had never actually thought critically about it until we stared at him in disbelief and told him there was no way for just his finger to have AIDS.
It was one of the weirder conversations I’ve had.
“Settling for what you can get” perhaps?
Wow, super ironic, or worryingly accurate avatar?
Either way, fear your avatar selection process Willis, it has achieved sentience AND a sense of humor.
I feel like we discovered this years ago.
But then, I’m just sitting over here…
perpetually smithing a piece of metal…
While I stare at you all waiting for the protected sex we are bound to have.
She is holding the sinful hand that is still molded in the shape of her vice grip on Ethan’s pec. :p
Also, the hand that got cut-up when she smashed the glass into her attacker’s face.
Guhhhh, I feel for Joyce. Her parents and religion did not prepare her for reality.
That’s the problem with religions – to many of them make simplifications, but believe that those simplification are truth itself.
Science also makes simplifications, but it realizes that they are simplifications, and tries to ensure that the simplifications become closer and closer to actual reality. That is essentially what the scientific method does – if finds better and better explanations for how reality works, and even if those explanations are simplifications, new explanations explain things better than the old ones. It’s also why newer theories are more complex than old ones.
I can see where you are coming from but I disagree on a few essential points. Specifically, I’d say the view of simplification, both in regards to Science and Religion. Religionwise, I’d say that with it you’re actually generally ascribing to a few key points about what the world is and how it works. A Christian must hold a major role for Jesus, as a Buddhist should have some sense of the 8 fold path. Beyond that however, there is a great deal of person liberty as to how we should go about expanding on that; Christians have pretty widely varying views on birthcontrol, politics and even what God is and how he operates in the universe but they are all commited to a handful of points that they share together. Theologists are willing to get very detailed about how those points should be interpreted however.
Science on the otherhand is theories. If you’re going by a serious scientific meta-theory, you likely hold that we can’t “know” much but (to quote a famous old Greek fellow) we can eliminate certain ideas that don’t work. Usually this means taking most of the elements that seemed to work and changing just the minimum but you can get pretty radical changes to thought and understanding that will invalidate a great deal of thought.
So, by contrast, I’d say the difference between Religion and Science is that Religion is a series of specific commitments we have in our worldview while Science is a means of testing theories and worldviews.
The problem then for Joyce is not that religion over simplified things but rather that her specific branch demanded several, very specific commitments both metaphysical and ethical that have put a lot of strain on her. Further, now that she is out in a new and radically different culture, some of these beliefs seem like they do not hold for most and aren’t the best for one’s mental well being.
*I deleted the quote by that old famous Greek fellow. It was Xenophanes; “Gods of course did not reveal everything to mortals from the beginning, but in time by searching they improve their discoveries”.
Removed since while cool and slightly relevant, it was a bit rudimentary for an explaination of scientific theory and because the line on divine knowledge might have been taken as a comment as religion as a whole (which it shouldn’t be: he was just rejecting the specific Greek tradition of divine inspiration but he had probably the closest you’ll see to a Judeo-Christian God in Ancient Greek Philosophy as a conclusion, further proving my point that it’s not necessarily simplification but rather Religion is a commitment as to how things operate).
This is probably the best explanation of science and religion I’ve ever seen. Copying this for later use. Do you have a source, or did you make these observations yourself?
It does put the difference well.
I wrote it on the spot, but William James and Karl Popper are influences.
That’s not a problem with religon, it’s a problem with JOYCE’s religion. Joyce’s religion is a religion based on not doing things. The most extreme form of this phenomena can be found in the rapture churches. The sum total of that religion is to abstain from a long list of things while waiting to be raptured. Actually living life leads to the possibility of temptation which leads to the possibility of not being raptured. So the religion is to quite literally sit around and do nothing until the world ends.
Joyce clearly subscribes to some form of this, because her entire spiritual focus is upon not doing things, and then feeling horrible for having the urge to do things. It’s not merely a terrible way to live, but a terrible religion. It gives her no hope or strength, just constant free floating anxiety.
You realize that the ‘not-doing-anything’ churches are just a spin on the old Gnostic beliefs–that everything in the world is debased and evil and so on, right? All of this has been done before.
I wonder if her parents thought they were raising a good little culture warrior. Basically parents raise their children with the expectation that they will come of age, go out into the world, and (metaphorically) slay the heathens. They learn all the apologetics, learn all the correct bible verses, get all beefed up and prepared for spiritual warfare. Of course they fail miserably, because they are taught a specific script and real life does not follow a script. When you are being raised that way everything is simple with a clear answer. When someone says, “I don’t believe in Jesus” you have a rehearsed answer (probably C.S. Lewis’s trilemma) and at the end of it you expect to be able to say “BOOYA! IN YO’ FACE ATHEIST!”to their stunned silence. But, of course, that’s not how people (or reality for that matter) actually works.
So when life starts going off script… well a lot of people wind up having breakdowns. There’s nothing more overwhelming than (for example) going to an art museum and seeing Egyptian pottery that’s older than what you’ve been taught the world is. When the training wheels of life come off there’s just a constant barrage of big and small things that erode away at the scripts a person raised like this has internalized. And since their entire world view is built on those scripts, a massive identity crisis will happen (and generally gets resolved by pushing the cognitive-dissonance as far back in the depths of the mind as possible and soldiering on, or by rejecting everything and becoming one of those evil liberal secular humanist atheists).
Of course the fact that this is pretty demonstrably a failure is (in my opinion) why movements like Quiverfull emerged. Now, instead of sending kids out into the world, they’re keeping them at home (and thus protected from contradictory information) and attempting to simply outbreed.
Ah, now we’re getting back to the Willis we know and curse.
Phew.
We shall see… We shall see. I, for one, hopes that this turns out well.
I think you meant the Willis we know and worship.
But is Jeezy happy? Probably doesn’t care.
He’s always happy. Or He’s always mad. I’m not sure.
It depends on whether you’re entering or exiting the church.
Depends on if you are buying SP! customer protection rackets or not
In that case, all that matters is that Mike’s happy.
Er…or as close to happy as he gets. This IS Mike we’re talking about.
I think the closest to happy mike gets is erect.
If you ask me he’s been playing that whole “I died for your sins” card a little too long. I mean he came back.
Yeah; Optimus did it for a lot longer. Plus more times.
But Optimus can CTRL + C his brai- wait, couldn’t Jesus do that too?
Doesn’t that make both of their sacrifices kind of worthless?
Waiiiit, if Jesus is GOD, and knows there’s an afterlife AND can just come back to life, how is it even a sacrifice?
Brb guise, waxing all the hair off my body, for the sins of humanity and whatnot.
Or for charity.
Whatever.
King Kong died for your sins.
Goku died for our sins too and when HE came back he was a Super Saiyan 3. Step your game up, Jesus.
Jeezy, Joyce’s main squeeze(y).
Joyce…..Please cheer up and don’t do anything you’ll regret.
I doubt she’ll do anything that actually carries severe negative consequences, but she may regret even the most minor transgression in the emotional state she’s in.
I mean mostly like sex
What if she regrets not having sex?
Why the hell would she do that
I certainly do.
I don’t not even a little
You don’t not? So you do as well then.
Punctuation improves understanding.
Last panel Joyce has despair hair.
I wish I had hair that could fan out in streams of sadness.
Desphair.
Your internet awaits you…
Maybe she’s born with it…
Maybe it’s Maybelline
I had to look up saccharine. Look at you, Willis. Teaching me things.
The path to damnation is wide and comfortable and well-trodden.
What Joyce is feeling here is perfectly consistent with her upbringing. Nobody claimed that it was easy following the path of righteousness. Or whatever this is supposed to be.
Feeling guilty about hugging Ethan is like a bulimic stuffing herself with raw cabbage and then putting her finger in her throat. This was not going to make you fat anyway, dearie.
Ehn. The real world is lacking in examples of people who were raised with Christian values in regards to Chastity and as a result have certain elements of awkwardness and fear that people who were not raised with the same strick boundries don’t have: Joyce has been homeschooled, I suspect her parents frowned on courtship at all and that doesn’t give her a lot of experience with what is harmless and what is foreplay to a swandive into a firey lake. Hence her reaction and perhaps some discomfort with the views that she has adopted (though not necessarily been taught).
The thing I love about Chastity? It’s a temporary virtue. When are you supposed to be Honest? Always. When are you supposed to be Loyal? Always. When are you supposed to be Kind? Always. When are you supposed to be Chaste? Up to a certain point, where you’ve found the right mate and received God’s blessing. Then, you’re expected to put aside Chastity and FUCK LIKE BUN – sorry, “Be Fruitful And Multiply”. It’s pointless to agonize over Chastity because, at some point, it goes away. You always have that to look forward to.
Well. . .chastity does not go away for certain members of the church. . .depending on your religion.
Chaste is not the same as celibate. A monogamous relationship is chaste, though some would say it is so only when procreative. So one doesn’t give up chastity when entering into a lifelong monogamous relationship. So chastity is a lifelong endeavor, not a prelude.
Many religions/cultures call upon people to be celibate until marriage, though mileage varies, mainly in that it applies to women and not men.
I like Robertson Davies’ definition of chastity. Something like “Having the body in the soul’s keeping”.
I’m afraid you missed out on Pope John Paul II (I think). You are not supposed to lust after even your own spouse.
Excuse me while I sob over the unhappiness of a fictional character…
I’m on the verge of doing so
Who isn’t?
I’m looking at this with cautious optimism that maybe this is her realizing certain things that might move her towards a more moderate view that might allow for her to live better. So less pathos and more “Good, that seems to be a decent first step.”
I agree with you . This can be very healthy, help joyce break through conditioning and be comfortable in her own skin with a boy. I think this can be mutual and therapeutic all around . Ethan helping her will in turn help him to accept himself.
I can even see Joyce eventually being able to help Ethan accept himself and and meet men — in a way that Amber could not.
That would be adorable.
But I am also afraid in this panel , she might short-circuit this and dump him.
Dump him, because she thinks being with Ethan, even innocently with huggings , is a dead end for her.
And not a dead-end because hes gay. A dead-end because She hates herself for allowing herself to feel simple pleasures.
Me. Because I join Willis with his laughter at the torment of both his readers and Joyce.
And because I really really hope that Anti-Joyce finds a way to generally screw things up
I hope that bongo never shows up
Wait?
Is anti-Joyce a potential character?
I’m just annoyed that she doesn’t even know enough about her own religion to know that snuggling is acceptable. No sadness here.
I mean, unless she thinks that hugging her mom is lesbian incest….
ditto.
… Oh, Joyce. You need so much help and this is not the kind you need. *Gives hug*
At least Ethan is providing some form of help. Not much, mind you. What Joyce needs cannot be handled by one person, and definately not by anyone under the age of 24.
Age-ist.
It takes a village.
I wanna say something but I’m afraid some random asshat will use it against me in some way.
You’re right to fear my power.
I ain’t afraid of you…..Wait a damn minute. I ain’t afraid of nobody. I’m gonna say it, and if you don’t like it then kiss my ass. Joyce I hope this helps you feel better. I love you just the way you are.
And with that, I am no longer needed.
*fades away*
Your hat betrays you.
Poor Joyce. those Fundie parents of hers have really messed with her head. They’re not protective, they’re controlling and using their religion as an excuse. There is no such thing as being pure and free of sin and those who aspire to or claim that they are are either fools or liars.
You speak the truth, amigo or amiga.
If they are so controlling, why did they allow Joyce to go away to college?
1) education
2) alma mater
3)Would you want your kid living in your attic for the rest of your life?
You forgot:
0) Find a nice, well-educated husband.
Otherwise known as “getting her MRS. degree”.
> 3)Would you want your kid living in your attic for the rest of your life?
Sure, to keep her safe and sound.
My impression was that they both went to the same college when they were her age, so they figure it can’t do too much harm.
College is where you find husbands, silly!
Ugh, typing that turned my stomach.
and reading it turned my eyes.
What was that line again..? Oh yeah, “Let those without sin cast the first stone.” And MM survived because there were no non-sinners.
Jesus was quoted as saying: “Damnit, mom, I’m trying to make a point here!”
Just kidding. The point was how adultery requires two adulterers, and why should only one of them be culpable? Covet thou not thy neighour’s wife; love thy neighbour!
Isn’t your neighbor’s wife your neighbor too?
Geometry is hard!
Yes, that is the point.
I momentarily interpreted MM as Monkey Master.
That puts an entirely different spin on that story.
In certain Pentacostal circles there is a teaching that sinless perfection is an achievable goal. It must be a terrible burden. My belief in my Christian days was more mainstream evangelical: that we are all sinners, just that some of us are forgiven. Life was filled with constant repentance and pleas for forgiveness after each “sin”. The moral standards were such that pretty much everything that comes natural to a human being was sin; we called it the “sin nature”. Still I think that’s less horrible than believing that you actually *can* be perfect, and always feeling guilty, and fearing Hell, when you come short of it.
Augustinus wrote in his memoir that nobody ever is deserving of forgiveness. Everyone’s a sinner, baby, that’s the truth!
But God, in his infinite mercy, allows some sinners to enter his kingdom anyway. No prize for guessing who that someone is, according to Augustinus.
There was a year or so that I believed sinless perfection was an achievable goal. That year was awful.
First panel Joyce is so beautiful. And last panel Joyce’s hair looks so nice.
>you will never have your own Joyce
Why live?
Because I’m Kiva, bongo
Well, being the MC of a Kamen Rider series is a pretty good reason.
I’m thinking that the “friends who do this stuff, AND WORSE, all the time..” comment, doesn’t really seem to me to be a very good omen of awakening here.
Joyce has so far to go.
And until Ethan comes out, so does he.
Talk about enablers.
Especially, with the self hatred line thrown in at the end.
But Joyce was raised with “sex should only be for procreation” attitude. So was my grandmother, which was why my grandfather took a mistress after my grandmother’s hysterectomy.
I was taught by the church that sex was supposed to be wonderfully pleasurable, and in fact sacred, within the bonds of matrimony. Procreation was one purpose, but not the only one. Birth control was fine for married couples. “Meant for Pleasure” was the name of a book that made the rounds of couples retreats and the like; I was not to read it because I wasn’t married. This was in the early ’80’s; it seems like fundamentalism is more sex-negative now. There were no side hugs!
I wonder how many such cases involve a woman who was asexual, only did it because she considered it her marital duty, and was glad for the excuse to stop? Sad all around.
History is full of people who had to lie back and think of . As far as asexual or non-straight people, it did not help matters much if they were men, actually.
That’s “Lie back and think of ‘insert your country here’.
As someone who has physically recognizable reactions to dealing with stress, I appreciate the detail put in to establish Joyce’s. Impressive storytelling, Willis.
Are your physical reactions as cute as Joyce’s?
Commenter’s note: My tone of voice is not meant to be snappy or angry.
Tapping my fingers together to remind myself that a past injury should not still hurt or burden me, and that phantom pain is only in my head isn’t cute. I was referring to Joyce holding the hand she injured at the party way back when as a way of physically, and perhaps subconsciously, managing her stress. She has done this before when clearly stressed.
See: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/andalso/
Your version of god is a lie. Let it die with your virginity.
Ah, good old fashioned Religious guilt.
I’ll see your emotionally comforting relationships, and raise you one struggling stress-laden character development.
Poor Joyce. I know those “I’ve been brianwashed, and I’m not letting myself realize it yet, but I’m having internal conflict about my brainwashed beliefs, so I must be a terrible person who deserves to die” feels.
My faith didn’t survive it’s experience with the greater world. I’ll be interested to see what happens with Joyce, whether she chooses another religion, abandons them altogether, or chooses a less, what’s the word? INSANE version of Christianity to follow.
So this is where Mary steps into the picture and makes everything worse, right?
Or indirectly makes it better (by establishing herself as an example of how judgemental zealotry can turn someone into a horrible person, thereby causing Joyce to deliberately choose to not be like her).
Sometimes a clearly-defined Nemesis can be helpful.
Panel 3 Ethan; so sweet and compassionate. He cares for her, enjoys the cuddling as well. Maybe they are each what the other needs right now; someone to be intimate with non-sexually, while they each grapple with their own sexuality. It is an odd relationship, but maybe not so unhealthy as the commentariat seems to think.
I’m not sure if it’s ever been touched on.
But Joyce has some serious issues.
True, but you can trace it with a dry erase marker.
Snrrk. + 1/4 internet.
Ethan, if it weren’t for the whole gay thing you would be a wonderfull boyfriend.
I mean he could still be, but not to Joyce.
Unless Joyce turns out to be trans, too. No hint of that, though.
If Joyce were a trans, the resulting head explosions would cause a nuclear holocaust all across the world where Willis fans could be found the moment the comic revealing it went up.
Snort 🙂
However: http://community.feministing.com/2010/05/24/transgender-is-an-adjective-not-a-noun-or-a-verb/
English can verb or noun anything.
Oh, even gay, he’d be a wonderful boyfriend.
Just ask future Danny.
I think that Mary will pull some nasty $#!t, and somewhere in it will be an expectation that Joyce, as a fellow emphatically religious person, will back her play. And Joyce will make a different choice, backing her friends despite the evidence of premarital (or same-gender) hanky panky, because of the realization that sometimes…just having someone to hold is important enough.
How’s that for the long game? 😉
For the strip itself, she’s deeply conflicted, but it’s still a growth moment, so Yay!
I agree with you. She has already done that once, and against her own parents even.
I don’t know if Joyce’s endgame is to disbelieve in religion or to become more lenient with it and enjoy life
Or the Sarah Method- Snap and suck a billion dicks
I’m banking on #2 or the Sarah Method
DAMN YOU WILLIS!
And with that, Joyce take her first step down the slippery slope.
I think the first step came at least as early as drawin’ a dong on a whiteboard. If not earlier.
As heart-rending as all this is, does Joyce’s brand of Christianity not allow opposite sex cuddles? Because that is as sad as it is confusing to me. Cuddles are the best thing. Sometimes you just need human contact, be it lover or friend.
If it feels good, it must be a temptation by the devil to sin.
After all: If you got all the love you need from your friends, what would you need religion for?
why making jokes at other people’s expense of course
Devil!
It may allow opposite sex cuddles, just not in bed while spending the night with each other.
Seriously, I think Joice will be just fine. She just has to find her own balance and that isn’t necessarily a fast process.
Yes, Joyce. You are a dirty, sinful girl and you need to be punished. See me in my office in 10 minutes. *porn music plays*
I’ve never understood that.
If you had no choice, if you were forced into it, then you are not responsible, it is not your sin.
(Don’t try this at home.)
Yeah, that what religions and totalitarian ideologies do. They make you feel guilty about something thats so integral to you (in this case lust), that you might as well feel guilty about being alive. Then they offer you cure for this imaginary disease you supposedly have, in Joyce’s case it Jesus forgiveness. But since you stave away guilt only for a little while, and they have only cure, they’ve got you tighter that drug dealer got an addict.
Now that’s what I call a Sunday strip!
wait, when did hugging innocently fully dressed become sinful? :I
It’s not the act, it’s the thoughts and feelings that accompanied it.
if God punished thoughts and feelings anybody would go to Hell.
That is correct.
It is also what a lot of churches teach. Thinking lustful thoughts is supposedly equal to actual adultery.
The way out is to ask for forgiveness from god and hope he gives it in his capacious mercy.
I find this state of affairs unhealthy.
And that’s the big problem I have with Christianity in general, and the reason I’m more on the wiccan/pagan part of the religious spectrum. “An ye harm none, do as thou will.”
mine is closer to “Should ye kick ass, prepare for thyne ass be kick by one bigger than ye.”
Your brainwashing was inadequate. We’ll have to do better next time.
“Babies are awesome! Sex is evil!”
“But sex MAKES babies…”
“SO WHAT SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE”
Sex with babies doesn’t make babies…
(Is that an AC/DC song I hear playing?)
You typed “capacious”, but at first I saw “capricious”.
Either works in context, IMO.
I mean it’s been a long time since I’ve heard any of that but even in Catholicism the strength is in having these thoughts and resisting them.
I think it’s less that it is Sinful and more that Joyce was homeschooled and sheltered with her parents frowning on dating (because of what it might lead to). So, as a result, Joyce sees it as kind of a slippery slope to “premarital-hanky panky” since she never dated or had to set the boundries herself.
Now, her parents would probably encourage her to go out and date and get married soon but Joyce has to get used to that sort of whip-lash and figure out where her boundries are (and learn that she does have the strength to set them somewhere comfortable for her).
My feels are fighting each other, particularly the ones that want to make jokes about Joyce right now. . .but then again, I am also quite hungry.
Give into your hunger. Embrace the chocolate side of the force.
Especially the dark chocolate side.
I had a girlfriend that was similar to Joyce in college. She got over that thinking pretty quick. Sort of surprising how quickly, actually.
Sounds normal, those are the ones who usually end up going crazy once they are given a bit of freedom
that might be true for some people.
as someone who has been raised in a rather extreme christian environment, I have to say: it is just as likely that those are the ones having problems with expressing their sexuality for years and years no matter how openminded one tries to be (and I am not only speaking for myself but also for a bunch of childhood friends…)
Not always, but it happens
…Maybe Ethan really IS perfect for Joyce. He’s so sweet.
no ethan is perfect for danny
In panel #1, Joyce is shown with her arms around Ethan, and in panel #2, Joyce remarks that she is “sinful and weak”… and then there is the way she is holding her right wrist in panels #4 and 5. Did Joyce get a little bold, and slide one hand under his shirt (or lower)? And is she now remembering the passage about how “If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” Matthew 5:30 (KJV)
Let’s not do anything rash, Joyce. Remember that the Son of Man, the God of the New Testament, is a loving, forgiving God.
Bill, looks like you beat me to it by about an hour 🙂
I never liked that passage. It seems to miss the entire point of agency and making decisions.
It also kinda cuts off a rather important body part to spite the sin.
which reminds me (not sure if serious)
It’s been pointed out further up, but that’s the hand she cut when she smashed the glass in Ryan’s face. This is not the first time she’s displayed that mannerism since then.
As I look at panels 4&5 all I can hear is the quotation from the Bible, “If thy hand offends thee, cut it off”
Good for Ethan for talking to her about it, though. Trying to make sure she’s okay.
🙁
EVERYBODY is forgetting the one quote by Sarah.
“I swear, one day that girl is gonna snap and suck like, a billion dicks”
THE DICKVENT HORIZON HAS COME
THERE IS NO STOPPING THE COCKSUCK CATASTROPHE
I hope when it does, we get a slipshine out of it
I think I would pay money to see that.
I hope it never happens
I’d pay to see Sarah slip on ice
Poor Joyce. 🙁
Is she hot?… She is hot right?
Oh, Joyce, honey. I need to hug you and take you out for coffee and talk for a long, long time.
Would you mind if I sat with her?
Her holding her wrist…is that like a slight reference to the earlier attack of the year?
I interpreted that as her right hand is trying to feel herself up, but her left hand is stopping it.
I didn’t “d’aww”, but I did “‘ohh”. Poor Joyce.
Going through an archive binge and saw her holding her wrist like that.
Joyce you poor baby.
She’s holding her hurt hand, hm. But.. hm. Not the usual part. Unrelated to trauma ?
Epiphany? Yes? No..??
Eh, it’s Joyce. I wouldn’t put that much… faith… in such an outcome.