Dammit, people, my comment was meant to continue the (perhaps inadvertent?) rhym Yotomoe started with “willy nilly” and “Billie”. What was SUPPOSED to happen was a series of silly poetry continuing the theme of using “illy”!
Never mind. The moment has passed. I just…I’m a little disappointed, is all. I’d come to expect better from all of you.
Say, how did Blaine know what room was Amber’s anyway? She hadn’t seen/talked to him in 3 years. How’d he find out what building/floor/room she was in? That’s not something listed in a college mailing address, is it?
“It is time we moved beyond these artificial distinctions, and looked at these people not as men in white suits, or men in black suit, but as creepy-ass government agents. Because in the end, isn’t that what we all want? Especially Joe. Joe. Stop it. The government can see you, and they really don’t want to.”
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous creatures and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.
She’s intensely driven and motivated; anything below her dreams will be a complete failure. She may very well not have noticed that her comment was somewhat offensive.
Speaking of which, I have to wonder if anything bad will come of Dorothy viewing her experience at Indiana as being a purely transient stepping stone to Yale. It’s always good to have your sights set high, but what will happen years down the road if she gets rejected and has to finish her studies here?
Yeah, I agree with Plas. Dotty knows what she wants, and has been open and honest with Walky about it. She plans to transfer to another school and when she went, that would probably be the end of the relationship, because that’s how things tend to go.
I’m not really referring to her relationship with Walky. What I mean is her reasoning in wanting to be president really boil down to “Hey, wouldn’t that be great for me?”. Maybe Willis just hasn’t revealed enough about her motivations for us to come to a solid conclusion, but she seems a lot more interested in what she would get out of being President than what she could do to make things better.
Moreover, her comment in panel 3 really irks me. She sets *her* goal as being the bar of success, and she seems to look down (at least subconsciously) on anyone that settles for less. It’s kind of shitty to underhandedly imply that her parents, who have devoted their whole lives to raising her and making sure she’s supported and provided for, have accomplished nothing.
Maybe I’m coming off as being harsh. I don’t hate her, I just think she’s let her ambition make her at least a little self-centered.
I’d like to clarify and say that it’s not a bad thing that Dotty has ambition. Hell yeah, a female president would be awesome (Well, could potentially be awesome. Just as awesome as any male president. The office has a spotty track record.)! I’m mainly miffed at the way her personal goals have distorted her perception of others’ achievements and aspirations.
I’m pretty sure that becoming president of the united states is an objectively high goal, and that saying that that goal is way beyond whatever her parents have accomplished isn’t really all that offensive. Particularly when one recognizes the slight possibility that somebody might be offended by the idea of presidential superiority and thus prefaces their comment with “no offense” and a non-haughty expression.
I don’t agree. There are plenty of ordinary folks who have done way more to make the world better than any power-hungry president. Being an authority figure does not make you “higher” than a garbage guy who loves his family and makes their souls happy and comfortable. Many presidents have shitty family lives and spend their terms wrecking others’. It’s elitist to imply that politics is “more noble” than mothering or doctoring or working at Wendy’s with a smile and a day-brightener. Maybe Dorothy doesn’t know that, but her high-class power means nothing in the long run of simple human kindness.
She said in the very comic you’re commenting on about wanting to reduce economic disparity. I think her desire to become a politician expand more than just it being a success for her.
That’s what everyone says. Cynical, yes, but just look at the Mexican Revolution and the various populist uprisings of the 20th century if you disagree.
It’s possible Dorothy is unaware of the realities of politics, and her ideals and drives are going to get a hard kick to the balls if she ever makes it that far.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I really don’t think Dorothy is just saying that. I really don’t understand how someone could get the idea she wants to become president because of what it could do for her. Yes, she’s a little idealistic of what she wants to accomplish, it isn’t that easy, but Dorothy has always been fairly honest and straightforward. I think if she wanted to be president because of what she could get out of it, we’d have seen some sign that her motivation was such a thing.
That still doesn’t mean that she’s doing it simply because she wants to get ahead in life. It just means that she isn’t cynical, and is what others deem “naive”, which wasn’t the point being made.
I wouldn’t say that. She came pretty clear about the terms of the relationship early on so she’s not misleading anyone, and there isn’t anything inherently wrong with having ambitions. She come across as a bit braggy, sure, but it would be a really stretch to call her selfish.
Well, she’s 18. (Almost) Everyone is at least a bit selfish at 18, and at least it’s “I want to be successful so I can help make the world a better place” selfish and not “Buy me everything while I do nothing because I deserve it for existing” selfish. And, if you notice, her mom doesn’t really correct her. As I’ve said before, my parents are a lot like Dorothy’s; they’re supportive and they honestly want her to do better than they have, and fully believe that she can. I mean, my parents started a joke (and I use it every once in awhile) that I have to do well because I’m their retirement.
She seems properly selfish. This time of her life, and where she is all about finding, developing, and honing one’s self. She’s pretty honest about what she’s committed to and what she isn’t, at least intellectually. Of course she underestimates the effect of sleeping cuddled up with caramel.
This is… no… this has got to be a lie. Something horrible is going to happen! I know it! Oh god! Stop forming emotional attachments to them! It’s a trap!
Yeah, the Penis-in-Vagina super combo didn’t make her, but they’re her parents and they made her who she is. And while I’m sure people think it’s interesting to walk around without shoes it’s not something a responsible parent lets their kid do.
Why not? There are health benefits to walking around barefoot (back and posture benefits).
Your feet build up a layer of calluses that pretty much protect them from everything except glass and nails, but really, how often do you accidentally find yourself walking on dangerous stuff? Don’t assume that all of our western customs are “the only responsible way”.
Seconded – I have some cousins who are essentially mountain goats. They can climb up anything and they almost never wear shoes unless it’s required for entry somewhere. Their feet are callused as heck and impervious to most potential damage. It works pretty well for them, I’d say.
Maybe that’s why they’re roommates. “Rate your family’s level of crazy 1-10” “Oh we only have two girls who have families with a crazy level of 1? Ok, they are now roommates.”
We met Dotty’s parents before Sierra’s, though, so hers would be the second.
Also, Mike may be a dick, but his family seemed pretty healthy anyway, so Dotty’s are still first, Mike’s is potentially the second, and Sierra’s folks are the third in that case.
Well, they’re still present, they’re just not exhibited. You get a gene from your mom and a gene from your dad, but you don’t necessarily get the dominant gene that exhibited its trait in them. So your parents could both be brunettes, but if, say, your paternal grandmother and your maternal grandfather were both blonde, and your parents both carry the recessive blonde gene, you can end up being blonde!
It’s like magic! If magic were an easily testable and reproducible process of experimentation and assessment.
It’s actually much more complicated than this, because there are multiple gene pairs involved. But even if it wasn’t, her mom could have a recessive blonde gene that she passed to Dorothy.
As brown hair is dominant, Dorothy’s mother must possess either Brown/Blonde or Brown/Red Allelles, which in her case, the red or Blonde is not expressed. In her fathers case, he must possess Blonde/Blonde or Blonde/Red. Either Dorothy’s mum possesses Brown/Blonde and passed on the blonde allele rather than the Brown allele, in which case no matter which allele her father passed on, Dorothy would be blonde (Blonde is dominant over red) or Dorothy’s mother possesses a Red allele and passed it on, but her husband passed on a blonde allele, again resulting in Dorothy’s blonde hair.
It’s the second. It’s more of a spectrum, and also, if I remember correctly, lightness vs. darkness is also a separate trait compared to red vs. not red.
So while it’s less likely, two parents with dark hair can easily have lighter haired children. My uncle’s auburn, his wife brunette, and they have one blonde child and two with super dark almost black hair. Then my aunt and her husband both with brown hair have several brunette kids, but three of the eight are gingers.
Hair color is not as simple as rolling your tongue!
Dorothy being blonde would work even if neither her parents were blonde. Recessive genes can work that way. It’d be a problem if she were brunette and her parents blonde.
Then the wikipedia article would probably read: “The Simpsons was an American animated sitcom created by Matt Groening for the Fox Broadcasting Company. The show lasted four episodes before Fox executives cancelled it, citing audience’s disapproval of the family’s ‘unrealistic perfection’.”
Man Willis, you don’t know how much I needed this page. It’s relaxing to finally take a breath and not want to complain or feud or bongo about a parent or tension or action. This breaks up the action and gives breathing room, which I am more than welcoming of.
She said “no offense,” but it really is a kind of offensive thing to say. Still her mom and dad probably took it the same way I did: she’s sooooooo young. In about 10 years, she’ll cringe when she remembers this conversation!
I actually suspect that Dorothy was raised to think that way. My parents were more then fine with instilling in me a work ethic to surpass the things they’d accomplished. She could have phrased it a little better, mind.
Realistically, if you feel the need to preface or follow up your comment with “no offense”, then you can guarantee that your comment will be at some level and to some degree offensive.
They are pinback badges, if it’s hard to tell. I make them all the time. Got a jacket with like a hundred on them that I wear to cons, all different characters I like.
And i am sure that quote will continue to encourage you as rip your hair out because the opposition party has decided to filibuster the procedural vote to begin discussion on the proposed senate version of your bill, after its been marked up with pork. this of course if your party has somehow managed to secure majority in the senate.
Yeah. She’s got an issue about not being taken as seriously as she takes herself. Heck, she get’s irritated when SHE doesn’t take herself as seriously as she thinks she should.
So, We still need to see Amber talk with her mom, Ethan with his parents and Billie with Walky’s (which makes the Sal situation even worse if they pay Billie more attention than Sal).
I think they are incredibly well meaning, but at the same time the: You can do it because you can make it possible stuff can be pretty painful pressure.
It creates a situation that if you fail, its because you didn’t want it enough, you didn’t work hard enough.
I was very gifted mentally in school. Always the top of my class. My mom always had the attitude of “you can do anything you set your mind to” so every time I failed at something (which I’ll admit wasn’t often), I saw it as a failure not of it being a difficult situation that most people couldn’t of overcome, but of me not trying hard enough, or that I wasn’t as smart as I thought I was.
I eventually burned out. I stopped caring about school because I was so afraid of failure that it was easier just to not try. Then I knew exactly why I failed, but I could keep the illusion in my head that “If I had tried, I could have done it.”
I ended up dropping out at 17, even though I was still, not trying, on track to be Star Student (at our school it was the student with the highest SAT scores that was in the top 10% of the class academically). Now me dropping out was unrelated to school, it was other reasons, but I didn’t go back to school for another decade, because I didn’t want to fail.
I wasted 10 years of my life doing menial labor despite my intelligence, because I was always told I could do anything, and I was afraid that if I tried and failed, it was because I was fundamentally flawed in some way.
+1 to all this – only I got through two years of college before giving up completely, and I’ve yet to end up in a position where I can go back.
(Also, it didn’t help that I had a teacher in elementary school who basically punished me for finding most schoolwork effortless, which encouraged skiving off.)
+2 to this, except I kept going through school and college and grad school through sheer stubbornness and a desperate need to find something, ANYTHING, that I could care enough about to actually DO. (When every person and test tells you you can do anything, it really can leave you rudderless in a f’ed up way). I eventually found contentedness as a librarian in a university setting… Just before the branch campus I worked at was shuttered.
The first two paragraphs of this. I’m (‘still’?) at a stage of bullheaded stubbornness no matter what, and also of being irritated at such sentiments rather than let them affect me deeply, but it is in any case quite a hurtful thing to be told. “I believe you’ll succeed! No matter what results you produce, they’re either a given or a letdown. Oh, and by treating your success as a given I’m also downplaying all work, all struggle, all stress that you may face in trying to turn your results from a default failure to a just-grasped success. What, why are you upset? I was being /supportive!/”
It’s a very irresponsible thing to say to someone, and deserves to be called out.
—
Stepping back and looking at the strip’s situation again, Dorothy’s mother is effectively lying through her teeth. What she /should/ be saying is what Danny said, that ‘Well, it’s true that your future could go that way, but just in case it goes that other way instead we don’t loss anything by covering all corners.’ –Which is what causes Dorothy to blow up at the mere idea, which is why she dumped her boyfriend and immediately got another (which is who she’ll be with if she ends up not transferring) instead of staying with her boyfriend (and being with him if she ends up not transferring). She’s not doing something of the same level to her parents, though.
Back to the ‘lying through her teeth’ part. This is, to put it in paternity test terms, the difference between ‘This paternity test is so there will be no doubt that this child is ours, for the strongest possible bonds between us.’ and ‘Of course this paternity test won’t make me any more certain that this child is ours! There’s absolutely no reason to spend all this money on it! I’m spending all this money on it anyway.’
‘I’m meeting your boyfriend, just in case things go differently from how you expect them to.’
‘Things going differently from how I expect them to is IMPOSSIBLE!’
‘Oh, I know it’s impossible. Pretend my last sentence never happened. Now let’s go meet your boyfriend even though there’s absolutely no reason to.’
I’m of the mind that Dorothy hears constantly from everyone that she can’t or won’t achieve what she wants to do, or will inevitably give up on it — even (and especially) from her ex-boyfriend — and her parents are the only supportive oasis in a storm of folks telling her she’s too female and too atheist to ever achieve what she wants, who roll their eyes when they hear what her goal is.
Dorothy is not conflicted over what she wants to do, nor is she rudderless. Constantly reminding her of her ability to fail is not adding anything beneficial when that is what the world is already always whispering in her ear.
People are different and need to be told different things, knowingly relative to their situations. What’s destructive for one is not always destructive for another.
But that’s not the only consequence. As was stated before, the “you can do anything you set your mind to” mentality can be twisted into “all those things you failed at? You could do them if only you tried a little harder.”
That’s most likely not whats going to happen, of course, but everything has consequences, no matter how well intentioned the original action was. Just look at Mr. Walkerton’s comment on Sal’s hair.
EVERYTHING you say can be twisted. There is no single thing to say to everyone that will work with 100% of people 100% of the time. Again, people are different. So the lesson I’m taking away from all you folks is that there is NOTHING positive you can say to your child, ever.
That’s one way of putting it, yeah. Or at least be prepared for anything that comes up.
But you’re extremely right in that it depends on who you’re talking to. Telling Anakin to suppress his emotions didn’t really work out the way the Jedi hoped, for instance.
Not if you consider that they’re meant for people who can literally kill people with a stray thought, and that the psychological needs of thousands of alien species have to be accounted for.
Well they really have a bad track record on that end. The Council not wanting to fight the Mandalorians ended up resurrecting the Sith Empire and nearly wiping out the Jedi Order.
You’d think they’d learn to deal with these kinds of things by now. Especially since they usually end in genocide.
If you try to frame someone as having perfect parents, to the point that all of us are apparently supposed to aspire to be like them, don’t be surprised if someone who had similar parents isn’t all rainbows and pots of gold.
Actually, this pisses me off more than Blaine, or Joyce’s parents honestly. Not their actions. The way people REACT to it. Blaine is a shitty parent. Everyone knows it. Straight up. Everyone just sees Dorothy’s parents and go “wow, look how perfect they are, just like out of a storybook.” And let me tell you that line in the final panel just feels so ridiculously rehearsed and… unreal. Its like it was taken directly from a selfhelp parenting book.
Are the Keeners bad parents? Hell no. They seem like really well meaning people who are approaching things the best way they know how. But they sure as hell aren’t perfect.
My mother was this. I do my best NOT to be this to my children, because I am hyper aware of the possible consequences because I lived through it.
My mother was also this. She told me I could do anything I wanted and that I’d be great at it. (Except go to art school because they’re all gay communist liberals there.) Just because she told me, I believed that if I got a job at McDonald’s I’d be running the place in a week. Which is hilarious, because she never let me out of the house or do anything or listen to music or watch television or talk to most people and so my people skills were roughly that of a five-year-old’s until the day I got into college… and basically flunked out.
So, yes, nothing but constant praise. I was always better than everyone else, allegedly, a genius savant who was always moments away from being World Leader Of All You Stupid Yahoos. I was given an amazingly inflated sense of what I could do that was in no way crafted in proportion to my actual abilities, setting me up for in inevitable fall.
But Dorothy is not me. And I don’t have ill will towards Dorothy’s parents for choosing what they say according to Dorothy’s needs, even if those were the words that caused me such stress. To Dorothy, they are a reassurance, because her conflict and her fears and her personality are incredibly different from mine.
Oh screw this. If me commenting on your feed just results in you mocking my life experience on your twitter feed because I criticized your idealized parents, then I’m out.
The first post I made on this comic was 18 minutes after it went up, and I think I was I believe (I can’t find any earlier ones) first person to not think they are perfect parents.
I’m pretty sure you were responding to me and or the people who agreed with me.
I like your comic, but you oftentimes react to anyone who disagrees with you with blatant mocking. Which is fine when someone is being racist, or sexist, or any number of other actual HARMFUL things, but its kind of shitty when its a difference of opinion on the effects of a well meaning but possibly pressure inducing statement.
There is very little chance anyone is going to see this, but Imma post here anyway.
SO my two cents are this.
No matter how you raise a child, they will have faults.
No matter how you parent, you will screw up.
It’s normal and natural.
Yes, I do believe that the Keeners are putting the daughter under stress to succeed. But it also gives her the confidence to try.
Every lesson has an opposite that goes with it. Every lesson.
Confidence can breed pride.
Moderation can breed hesitation.
Selflessness can breed recklessness.
Each lesson breeds a fault the child will have to solve. The Keeners aren’t perfect. But they are trying to shape Dorothy into a confident and self-reliant woman. They want her to be who she wants and they’re trying to give her the tools she’ll need. She has good parents, open and accepting.
And they try.
More importantly, Dorothy can see they try.
And that can make all the difference in the world, because it means she can learn the negatives of the lessons she’s been taught are less than the positives.
That working is good, but overworking is bad.
That interest in something doesn’t have to be overbearing.
She has good parents. Good, but not perfect.
But they are good.
That’s a bit harsh. I think Mrs K is being gently sarcastic, as a response to her daughter’s ‘inoffensive’ dig about their achievements. And Dorothy knows it, hence the quip about congress.
Also, that was difficult to write without a huge alliteration dump. Just sayin’.
Quote: “‘I’m meeting your boyfriend, just in case things go differently from how you expect them to.’
‘Things going differently from how I expect them to is IMPOSSIBLE!’
‘Oh, I know it’s impossible. Pretend my last sentence never happened. Now let’s go meet your boyfriend even though there’s absolutely no reason to.’”
I read it more like this:
‘I’m meeting your boyfriend. You never know, things might go differently from how you expect them to.’
‘Things going differently from how I expect them to is IMPOSSIBLE!’
‘I still want to meet him.’ Because my 18 year old daughter has a new boyfriend (not just a fling), and I’d want to meet anyone she was involved with.
Also on the flip side of this: I find her comments in the second panel a really good example of the appropriate way to remind Dorothy that not every part of your life has to be planned to the T, and sometimes you will find things that make you happy in life when you aren’t even looking and it won’t be what you expect.
Well, Dorothy. We made you. So technically everything you accomplished is our accomplishment cuz we raised you so technically we’ve accomplished DOUBLE.
Dorothy, we know you want to protect the world from devastation, and unite all people within your nation, but can we meet your not super serious boyfriend now?
“Dorothy Keener says that her bill will help ‘aid economic disparity’. Well, Dorothy Keener said a lot of things. Dorothy Keener said that we should trust Harvey Dent. And what did we get from that? No, I say we keep Keener’s bill out of Congress, and keep hard-working businessmen like Tobias Whale and Carmine Falcone and Warren White from being persecuted in this so-called socialist utopia!”
I have a tendency to unreasonably assume that any real pathos I experience is an author’s attempt to manipulate my emotions, and so I discard the sensation instantly. It’s a totally unfair impulse because I rarely distinguish between well-written pathos and a hamfisted attempt to make me feel something.
Which is probably why, although I don’t think Dotty’s parents are the worst, or even remotely bad, I’m more galled at this embarrassing enthusiasm from the parents Keener than the Brown’s emotional blackmail or Blaine’s fucking shitty shitfuckery.
To clarify, because I have a solipsistic belief that all of David’s tweets are directed at me personally: I don’t think the Keeners are bad parents. They’re clearly excellent parents.
They just remind me of my parents, where the pressure of their enthusiasm and expectations drove me to make bad decisions because I wanted to please them, even though they totally didn’t want that for me.
FYI, since my comments sometimes get misconstrued, I’d never trade my parents or how they raised me. They can be embarrassing, but I can genuinely say I wouldn’t be where I am without their support. I am very, very lucky.
That said, Mrs. Keener, dude, relax. It’s the first month of freshman year. I don’t know how it is for normal people, but six years later I keep in contact with less than 1% of the people I made friends with that year, much less the people I thought were my friends during the first month. Heck, looking at the people most important to me in October 2006, several of them didn’t even make it to winter break.
If this weren’t a comic strip, there’d be a nontrivial chance that Dorothy and Walky will break up in the next couple weeks and then never speak to each other ever again. It’s way too early to have designs on the rest of your daughter’s life.
Yes, Dorothy was rude and arrogant to her parents. Being rude and arrogant is in the teenagers’ job description. I like how her parents have obviously decided to blow it off. I think the Keeners choose their battles wisely.
I don’t know, being so practical about some things (breaking up with Danny, closely “regulating” her relationships like that, etc) in order to achieve her ambitions does make personally make me a bit uncomfortable.
Plenty of people in positions of power are pretty much sociopaths.
I think there was more to her breakup than that, which has been argued repeatedly in the comics relating to their relationship.
Namely, that she was worried that Danny was revolving his entire life around Dorothy, which isn’t particularly healthy. Relationship or no, you need your own friends, goals, dreams, etc. Danny really didn’t have -any- of those things’, except Joe as a friend. His entire goal in life was to be with Dorothy forever no matter what she did, which likely wouldn’t end spectacularly.
Dorothy, ambitious as she is, might not ultimately be happiest as President of the United States. There are many qualities that a serious contender for the top political job (or the top of almost any career) has to have that Dorothy does not seem to have developed yet.
Chief among these missing qualities is the ability to eagerly receive a turd sandwich from someone you hate, take a big bite without hesitation, chew, swallow, keep smiling, and then compliment the person you hate’s culinary skills in front of a big crowd of people.
Dorothy obviously has the drive to learn the academic skills, but she has not shown any aptitude for the people skills. She may be much happier angling for the much more influential position of Chief Justice of the Supreme Court than the transient impact of the Presidency.
Nah, that wouldn’t matter, given the cheek-shadings of the panels before and after. Now that it has been drawn to my attention, it’s playing havok with my perception of depth. It makes it seem like Dorothy’s left lens is floating about four inches in front of where it should be.
There’s definitely not. It’s just the wording of “what I want is *way beyond* what you’ve accomplished” that can come across as belittling towards your parents. You can express lofty goals without looking down on other people, especially the people who put you in the position to aspire to those goals.
I love how the comment section has turned into “judge the parents”. I’m guessing most of us aren’t parents yet (at least not with 18 year olds) which makes it a bit silly to be making so many absolute sounding judgements.
I have two children, one in middle school, and one in elementary school.
I criticized them because “you can do it if you put your mind to it” is a terrible concept when its put to something that only 0.0000015% of the current US population has ever accomplished might not be the best course of action.
Encouragement is good, telling her that she can unequivocally do it if its what she wants is just unrealistic bullshit. You can be encouraging without that.
My daughter told me she wanted to be a fiction writer when she grew up. I told her that was awesome, and a great goal, and if that’s what she really wants, she should work towards it and work to be better at it, and that I would support her all the way. But its not an easy field to support yourself in, and you are going to face a lot of adversity to get there, and you may not succeed. But trying is better than giving up before you start.
No where in there did I tell her if she tried hard enough she would get it. Because that is what my parents did to me. And everything I didn’t get made me feel like a failure.
I’m of the opinion (the rational but zero experience opinion) that there are a million acceptable ways to raise kids. Obviously abuse and whatnot create permanent problems but outside of those extremes, I really don’t think there is a specific set of rules that are “best”.
As far as I can tell every generation revises the way they were raised and confidently makes changes so that their kids won’t go through whatever it is that they went through. And then their kids do the same.
Add in advice from friends and self-help material and everyone is an expert and their nurture plan is the best and everyone else is abusing their children or raising them to be [insert negative personality trait].
That said, a parent who’s confident with their nurture plan is probably better than one who isn’t, so all of the above isn’t really a bad thing.
I’m not saying they are bad parents. I’m saying that the perfect idyllic way they are being portrayed isn’t without possible consequences.
Yes, they are a billion times better parents than some of the others we’ve seen in the story (then again, with Blaine and Joyce’s parents that doesn’t really take a lot), but I hate the idyllic “this is the parents you should be” that we are being pushed.
I don’t think they are doing the best thing, and they are being framed as perfect, so much so that the mouseover text makes it sound like this is what we all aspire to be as parents.
This is the childhood I grew up with, and it wasn’t perfect.
I’m reading this on a tablet (because they are way cool, despite webcomic writers attempting to convince me otherwise) as of now. What exactly does the hover text say?
Dorothy’s also 18 and probably knows that, so there’s no need to tell her, so being encouraging and saying that you believe she can do it seems perfectly reasonable, especially if she does genuinely believe that Dorothy can do it. If Dorothy were 4, I’d probably agree with you.
It’s the smart ones who have the hardest time seeing the own limits of their cleverness. If you’ve consistently tested in the top 1% ever since you were a wee bairn, you’ve been given some pretty well-documented proof that you are something special, and therefore are destined to achieve the greatest things. The reality that the highest achievement needs more than pure book-learning, and that you are waaaay behind the curve on those crucial social skills is a very rude slap in the face when it finally gets past the certainty that you, unlike all the other know-it-all college students, actually do know everything worth knowing.
(Personal experience and an extra quarter-century of perspective here. And hindsight is a real kick in the gonads, let me tell you.)
But Dorothy’s parents, being the age they are, have probably learned one of the great secrets, which is: 99 times out of 100, you can tell someone 18-25 what their problem is and exactly how to solve it, but it will not take root and they will have to learn the lesson themselves, the hard way.
Yeah I was thinking along those lines too.
That and here at Indianna she is the top %. To get into Yale, she’s going to be competing against everyone else who is the top %. I suspect that she is unwittingly assuming that because she’s put in the work and deserves a place at Yale, that she is automatically going to get it. My sister passed an exam to get into a prestigious school, along with 700 other people for 200 available places. She had the brains, but wasn’t offered a place.
I love all this “dude, she insulted her mom” nonsense. She said she wanted to do more than her mom had done. So? She didn’t disparage her mom’s life choices, she didn’t call her a failure, she didn’t actually insult her, just say “I want to do more with my life than you did”. That bongo?
The funny thing is that Dorothy really has no idea what her parents have accomplished. Her parents have gone out into the world, achieved a happy middle-class experience, and raised a bright and self-assured child who has never had to even think about how privileged she actually is. The fact that Dorothy’s biggest concern in life is that she might be slightly sidetracked on the road to the very top of the world means that her parents were amazingly successful at all the things that are important in life.
Dorothy needs to watch out or she’ll grow up to become Linda, high expectations that aren’t met have a way of curdling and being pushed onto the next generation.
I actually sort of love that those two are interacting. Faz is so vile that he’s actually provoking emotional reactions from Dina, and that’s somehow nice to see.
Mostly because it means that she could get rid of him with a scolding similar to the one given to Joyce.
Look Dotty. Having big, huge, astronomical hopes and dreams and plans is great. Really. Just please try to remember that 1.) Your hopes and dreams are not inherently better than anyone else’s just cause yours are less likely to come true. 2.) You aren’t the president yet. 3.) Life is full of setbacks, compromises and delays. Do not judge your worth or the worth on others based on how far you get on your own fantasy timetable, cause failing to meet that timetable (and you will, cause life is never as quick or perfect as your fantasy version of it) will crush your self-image years before you even have a chance to make it all the way.
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A regulated amount of fun, no less.
You can’t just have fun willie nillie…Then you become Billie.
(and the problem is…?)
Withdrawal symptoms.
And then won’t you feel silly.
Billy means serious business.
Serious Billie means business.
Silliest beer means business.
Beerious silly is Beer.
The silly thing to beer is beer itself.
Beer with me while I act silly
Hey you, beer me. Beer me forever.
Dammit, people, my comment was meant to continue the (perhaps inadvertent?) rhym Yotomoe started with “willy nilly” and “Billie”. What was SUPPOSED to happen was a series of silly poetry continuing the theme of using “illy”!
Never mind. The moment has passed. I just…I’m a little disappointed, is all. I’d come to expect better from all of you.
Lower back pain.
At least some of the parents are good.
Hey, an actually functioning family!
It’s like an endangered species in this comic.
Godammit, Mike’s gonna try to shoot one, isn’t he.
Without a hunting license, even.
It’s Canvashat season.
Mike Season!
With pepper, paprika, or whatever you like.
You forgot the nickel.
http://squallloir.tumblr.com/post/59372154607/its-canvashat-season-paid-for-by-supporters-of
And without a gun.
(Other than the gun he was born with.)
Mike is gonna shoot all the moms.
I’m still waiting for the punchline on that, I don’t trust that Willis kid…
Well, nobody writes stories about happy families, because they’re all happy the same way. Adversity builds characters.
I know right? After like 3 dysfunctional ones we get one that everyone can love and not blast 900 messages of hate at.
I just want to be the odd man out in this thread and say I can’t stand these two.
Then again, my family is screwed up, so ‘normal’ people are alien to me.
Mine are a few steps beyond “screwed up” and it just serves to make me happy for and about supportive, functional families.
And then they turn out to be the most evil ones of all!
Dina’s family is pretty functioning, just not to society’s standards.
Sierra’s are pretty neat.
How do we know that? It’s not like they’ve said anything to indicate that.
They didn’t start ruining her life the second they appeared, that makes them pretty good by the standards of this comic.
Plus Dina’s Mom apologized for letting Blaine in
Say, how did Blaine know what room was Amber’s anyway? She hadn’t seen/talked to him in 3 years. How’d he find out what building/floor/room she was in? That’s not something listed in a college mailing address, is it?
My room was in my mailing address when I lived there.
Yeah, this seems pretty common. Which is weird, because our mail was delivered to a central area that wasn’t even in the same building.
When I was an undergrad my college printed a campus directory that listed all our dorm assignments and phone numbers.
How would Blaine know the room number? She hadn’t seen/talked to him in 3 years – which can be taken as no letter writing either.
It kind of makes sense for the least screwed-up character to have the best parents.
I’m sure she will too. 🙂
Why can’t “for fun” and “for serious” be the same thing? I’m married and we have fun.
You’re only allowed a certain amount of fun per day. If you go over your quota, the men in black suits come to take you away.
And if you have TOO too much fun, Men in WHITE suits come to take you away.
“It is time we moved beyond these artificial distinctions, and looked at these people not as men in white suits, or men in black suit, but as creepy-ass government agents. Because in the end, isn’t that what we all want? Especially Joe. Joe. Stop it. The government can see you, and they really don’t want to.”
http://votecanvashat.tumblr.com/post/59372700795/it-is-time-we-moved-beyond-these-artificial
Those people are a very clean and reliable energy source.
And if you have WAY too much fun, a man in a batsuit comes to take you away.
Ho ho, ha ha, hee hee, to the funny farm.
No matter what they say I’ve done. I ain’t never had too much fun.
“For serious fun” 😀
I’m pretty sure that’s what her parents meant.
And then the murders happen, Oh god all the blood!
And the award for most appropriate gravatar goes to…
Dorothy’s pretty selfish. Discuss.
In what way exactly?
She’s telling her parents how much more she knows and how much bigger her plans are. There’s just a little dash of hubris, in my opinion.
Cuz I’m 18 and I know everything.
^That.
Everyone knows everything when they are 18. 18 year old me could solve all the world’s problems, if people had just asked.
And he totally had great taste in clothes and music, and wasn’t at all into stuff that would be embarrassing years later. No sir.
http://squallloir.tumblr.com/post/59374274900/future
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous creatures and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.
Mobs may be dumb, but combined knowledge of crowds is way smarter than any one human, hence the existance of crowd-saucing.
Crowd-saucing is my favorite activity! Especially with a nice chipotle mayo!
It’s a Cookbook!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI
Well, Walky is one big caramel flavoured hubris breaker.
Well if he’s a hubris breaker, would that make him the iceberg to Dorothy’s Titanic? 😀
If Dorothy’s titanic, she may not feel Walky’s iceberg… ;x
Had to think about that one for a minute or two.
That’s only the tip …
She’s intensely driven and motivated; anything below her dreams will be a complete failure. She may very well not have noticed that her comment was somewhat offensive.
Speaking of which, I have to wonder if anything bad will come of Dorothy viewing her experience at Indiana as being a purely transient stepping stone to Yale. It’s always good to have your sights set high, but what will happen years down the road if she gets rejected and has to finish her studies here?
We will never know because the comic won’t get that far.
There’s a difference between being selfish and having hubris, though.
Yeah, I agree with Plas. Dotty knows what she wants, and has been open and honest with Walky about it. She plans to transfer to another school and when she went, that would probably be the end of the relationship, because that’s how things tend to go.
I don’t see anything selfish in any of that.
I’m not really referring to her relationship with Walky. What I mean is her reasoning in wanting to be president really boil down to “Hey, wouldn’t that be great for me?”. Maybe Willis just hasn’t revealed enough about her motivations for us to come to a solid conclusion, but she seems a lot more interested in what she would get out of being President than what she could do to make things better.
Moreover, her comment in panel 3 really irks me. She sets *her* goal as being the bar of success, and she seems to look down (at least subconsciously) on anyone that settles for less. It’s kind of shitty to underhandedly imply that her parents, who have devoted their whole lives to raising her and making sure she’s supported and provided for, have accomplished nothing.
Maybe I’m coming off as being harsh. I don’t hate her, I just think she’s let her ambition make her at least a little self-centered.
I’d like to clarify and say that it’s not a bad thing that Dotty has ambition. Hell yeah, a female president would be awesome (Well, could potentially be awesome. Just as awesome as any male president. The office has a spotty track record.)! I’m mainly miffed at the way her personal goals have distorted her perception of others’ achievements and aspirations.
I’m pretty sure that becoming president of the united states is an objectively high goal, and that saying that that goal is way beyond whatever her parents have accomplished isn’t really all that offensive. Particularly when one recognizes the slight possibility that somebody might be offended by the idea of presidential superiority and thus prefaces their comment with “no offense” and a non-haughty expression.
It’s an objectively difficult goal. I can’t say it’s necessarily better than anything else.
I know I wouldn’t want it.
I don’t agree. There are plenty of ordinary folks who have done way more to make the world better than any power-hungry president. Being an authority figure does not make you “higher” than a garbage guy who loves his family and makes their souls happy and comfortable. Many presidents have shitty family lives and spend their terms wrecking others’. It’s elitist to imply that politics is “more noble” than mothering or doctoring or working at Wendy’s with a smile and a day-brightener. Maybe Dorothy doesn’t know that, but her high-class power means nothing in the long run of simple human kindness.
She said in the very comic you’re commenting on about wanting to reduce economic disparity. I think her desire to become a politician expand more than just it being a success for her.
That’s what everyone says. Cynical, yes, but just look at the Mexican Revolution and the various populist uprisings of the 20th century if you disagree.
It’s possible Dorothy is unaware of the realities of politics, and her ideals and drives are going to get a hard kick to the balls if she ever makes it that far.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I really don’t think Dorothy is just saying that. I really don’t understand how someone could get the idea she wants to become president because of what it could do for her. Yes, she’s a little idealistic of what she wants to accomplish, it isn’t that easy, but Dorothy has always been fairly honest and straightforward. I think if she wanted to be president because of what she could get out of it, we’d have seen some sign that her motivation was such a thing.
That still doesn’t mean that she’s doing it simply because she wants to get ahead in life. It just means that she isn’t cynical, and is what others deem “naive”, which wasn’t the point being made.
I can’t disagree, but she’s also 18, and starting in college. At that age, at that point, “selfish” and “driven” can look very similar.
I wouldn’t say that. She came pretty clear about the terms of the relationship early on so she’s not misleading anyone, and there isn’t anything inherently wrong with having ambitions. She come across as a bit braggy, sure, but it would be a really stretch to call her selfish.
Well, she’s 18. (Almost) Everyone is at least a bit selfish at 18, and at least it’s “I want to be successful so I can help make the world a better place” selfish and not “Buy me everything while I do nothing because I deserve it for existing” selfish. And, if you notice, her mom doesn’t really correct her. As I’ve said before, my parents are a lot like Dorothy’s; they’re supportive and they honestly want her to do better than they have, and fully believe that she can. I mean, my parents started a joke (and I use it every once in awhile) that I have to do well because I’m their retirement.
Selfish, no; a little rude to her parents, yes.
I think the word everyone is looking for here is “arrogant”.
She seems properly selfish. This time of her life, and where she is all about finding, developing, and honing one’s self. She’s pretty honest about what she’s committed to and what she isn’t, at least intellectually. Of course she underestimates the effect of sleeping cuddled up with caramel.
This is… no… this has got to be a lie. Something horrible is going to happen! I know it! Oh god! Stop forming emotional attachments to them! It’s a trap!
They’re going to get shot in an alley by a random mugger. Dorothy swears to end Crime.
Joyce is her sidekick.
And Jason gets sprayed by acid. So does Blaine, but that’s just for gratification.
Meanwhile, Ruth starts experimenting with super steroids, Billie gains an obsession with plants, and Mike learns to laugh.
And Danny starts asking questions.
For Journalism. Yeah.
I am Dorothy. I mean, I am Batman.
Amazigirl: This is my perch overlooking the city. Get your own!!!
And then they fight. That is how superheroes work now.
Remember when ladydevimon and angewomon got into a catfight?
So, Amazigirl is a time traveling Dorothy going back in time to prevent their murders?
No, silly goose. Amizigirl is obviously Mike.
Ladies and gentlemen, here we have the one healthy family on campus. Well maybe the second. Sierra’s looked fairly sane too.
They produced Sierra.
Nope, they adopted her.
Yeah, the Penis-in-Vagina super combo didn’t make her, but they’re her parents and they made her who she is. And while I’m sure people think it’s interesting to walk around without shoes it’s not something a responsible parent lets their kid do.
Maybe Sierra has a mutant superpower we don’t know about, and that’s why she goes barefoot?
She’s a particularly tall hobbit.
She’s Toph.
Why not? There are health benefits to walking around barefoot (back and posture benefits).
Your feet build up a layer of calluses that pretty much protect them from everything except glass and nails, but really, how often do you accidentally find yourself walking on dangerous stuff? Don’t assume that all of our western customs are “the only responsible way”.
Seconded – I have some cousins who are essentially mountain goats. They can climb up anything and they almost never wear shoes unless it’s required for entry somewhere. Their feet are callused as heck and impervious to most potential damage. It works pretty well for them, I’d say.
Hell yeah. The sherpas that porter the climbers through the himalayan foothills do it barefoot most of the time. Those feet evolved for walking.
Suddenly, hookworms.
If you stay on the sidewalk, maybe. For those of us who walk through alleys and even parks, shoes are a must.
Hell, I wear steel-toed boots to work. In a library. People laugh, but they have saved my toes more than once, and not from what you would expect.
Which is three points on the coolness scale.
They plan on starting mass production this November.
They adopted Sierra.
Not only did they produce her, but they manage her, Wrote her and liscensed her.
> and liscensed her.
That sounds seriously messed up.
Yeah, like maybe she’s available for franchising.
“Yes, I’d like to manage my own Sierra in this small town.”
Sounds like a steakhouse to me. I checked, there’s no such thing, you could totally start a Sierra Steakhouse.
Trying to decide if this a thing I should do.
but who did the casting
The ghost of M. Night Shyamalan yet to come.
So Uwe Boll then.
With a beard, but yeah.
Oh, right, spoilers.
Maybe that’s why they’re roommates. “Rate your family’s level of crazy 1-10” “Oh we only have two girls who have families with a crazy level of 1? Ok, they are now roommates.”
Wouldn’t you want the kids with sane parents around the crazy parents to help balance them out?
No, because they wouldn’t have anything to talk about
Amber, don’t do this. You’ll offset the curve too much.
Mike’s and Dina’s seem pretty healthy, Mike notwithstanding.
We met Dotty’s parents before Sierra’s, though, so hers would be the second.
Also, Mike may be a dick, but his family seemed pretty healthy anyway, so Dotty’s are still first, Mike’s is potentially the second, and Sierra’s folks are the third in that case.
Sierra’s dad insulted her natural hair.
I think you’re thinking of Sal’s dad. All Sierra’s dad has done in-comic hold back an abusive dad while trying to get him to talk it out like a total bad-ass.
Given that he’s doing it by complimenting the hairstyle that Sal herself prefers, I’ve seen meaner insults.
In that case, you really missed out on the context of that panel and his comment. It goes a lot deeper than a hairstyle preference.
I’m waiting for more sexy times… we can go through family day, but sexy times will have to happen…soon…
Well If you give me a crack ship, maybe I can try something.
Dina’s hat and Joyce’s hat?
not enough boobs. D:
Dorothy and Mike.
It just popped into my head.
Billie and leslie!
….
maybe…
but not tonight.
Roz and Joyce?
Faz and Roz
Faz and Roz would actually be interesting. As in, how would Roz react to Faz putting the moves on her?
Pepper spray, most likely.
Mike and Faz!
Watch the next comic be Amber’s mom and Joe’s dad. Just WATCH.
Or Mike, with a bag full of nickels.
…guy’s in his element.
Man, Dorothy is a little… frank with her parents.
Wait, how is Dorothy blonde if her mother is a brunette? Or maybe hair genetics is more complicated than I’ve thought.
Her dad is blond?
Yes, but blond/e hair is recessive, or so I’ve been told.
Then the mother is a carrier.
Yeah, genetics are weird. There are small chances you’ll still get recessive genes even if they’re not exactly present.
Well, they’re still present, they’re just not exhibited. You get a gene from your mom and a gene from your dad, but you don’t necessarily get the dominant gene that exhibited its trait in them. So your parents could both be brunettes, but if, say, your paternal grandmother and your maternal grandfather were both blonde, and your parents both carry the recessive blonde gene, you can end up being blonde!
It’s like magic! If magic were an easily testable and reproducible process of experimentation and assessment.
Heavensrun has the Science.
My husband has brown hair, I have brown hair, one of our kids has brown hair, the other one is a complete redhead.
You make it sound like a disease
That’s what it’s called, though. If she doesn’t show the gene but she has it, she’s a carrier for it.
Oh my god! I might be a carrier of THE BLONDE!
Turn yourself in, Squall. No one wants to catch your blondeness.
The mega-mall I am in is now in quarantine…
It’s actually much more complicated than this, because there are multiple gene pairs involved. But even if it wasn’t, her mom could have a recessive blonde gene that she passed to Dorothy.
Or Dorothy colours her hair?
Recessive genes are the ones that can pop up even if neither parent has the trait.
If I recall correctly, blonde hair is a recessive gene.
Yeah but if mom has one gene each for blonde and brown, then 50/50 on Dorothy being blonde.
Also there is this witchery called “dye.”
If it wasn’t evil, they wouldn’t have called it “die”, now would they?
It was a custom so foul, they had to change the “i” to a “y” as a form of censorship.
It’s possible. If one of her maternal grandparents was blonde, and her mom has the gene, then there’d be a 50/50 chance of Dorothy being blonde.
As brown hair is dominant, Dorothy’s mother must possess either Brown/Blonde or Brown/Red Allelles, which in her case, the red or Blonde is not expressed. In her fathers case, he must possess Blonde/Blonde or Blonde/Red. Either Dorothy’s mum possesses Brown/Blonde and passed on the blonde allele rather than the Brown allele, in which case no matter which allele her father passed on, Dorothy would be blonde (Blonde is dominant over red) or Dorothy’s mother possesses a Red allele and passed it on, but her husband passed on a blonde allele, again resulting in Dorothy’s blonde hair.
TLDR version, google Punnet Square
Because if she wasn’t blonde, we would have two Ambers?
It’s the second. It’s more of a spectrum, and also, if I remember correctly, lightness vs. darkness is also a separate trait compared to red vs. not red.
So while it’s less likely, two parents with dark hair can easily have lighter haired children. My uncle’s auburn, his wife brunette, and they have one blonde child and two with super dark almost black hair. Then my aunt and her husband both with brown hair have several brunette kids, but three of the eight are gingers.
Hair color is not as simple as rolling your tongue!
Dorothy being blonde would work even if neither her parents were blonde. Recessive genes can work that way. It’d be a problem if she were brunette and her parents blonde.
By which he means Mrs. Keener would have some explaining to do.
Little known fact- Mamoru/Darien’s mother had pink hair.
If only Lisa Simpson had parents like Dorothy’s.
Then the wikipedia article would probably read: “The Simpsons was an American animated sitcom created by Matt Groening for the Fox Broadcasting Company. The show lasted four episodes before Fox executives cancelled it, citing audience’s disapproval of the family’s ‘unrealistic perfection’.”
She wouldn’t be making that show more boring.
Man Willis, you don’t know how much I needed this page. It’s relaxing to finally take a breath and not want to complain or feud or bongo about a parent or tension or action. This breaks up the action and gives breathing room, which I am more than welcoming of.
Anyone think Dotty is just a little snotty here?
Just a tad…
As a used hanky.
She said “no offense,” but it really is a kind of offensive thing to say. Still her mom and dad probably took it the same way I did: she’s sooooooo young. In about 10 years, she’ll cringe when she remembers this conversation!
I actually suspect that Dorothy was raised to think that way. My parents were more then fine with instilling in me a work ethic to surpass the things they’d accomplished. She could have phrased it a little better, mind.
Anything you have to preface with “no offense” is an inherently offensive statement.
Nothing prefaced by ‘no offense’ is ever not offensive.
No offense, but I think you’re a really cool person.
No offense, but +1
No offense, but you’re really attractive.
Are you suggesting there’s something wrong with my personality?
No offense, but you’re perfection
No offense, but I’m glad I’m not the only guy who thought of this particular line of snark.
No offense, but nothing is ever not offensive?
Realistically, if you feel the need to preface or follow up your comment with “no offense”, then you can guarantee that your comment will be at some level and to some degree offensive.
Snotty Dotty’s actin’ Haughty.
She said a very asshatty thing. But many college students go through an asshat phase.
I’m the same way with my girlfriend. Only she’s the serious one and I’m in it
for fun. God help me 🙁
You have to follow my plans! My parents said I can do anything I put my mind to, and I’m putting my mind to this!
If you have to put a “No offense, but…” before a statement, don’t say whatever you will say. Really, just don’t.
+1
real talk
saying “No Offense” is like saying “Not to sound racist but” or “I’m not trying to spit on your beliefs, but”
It’s the “with all due respect” of casual conversation.
“With all due respect” is sneaky.
If you have to use it, the target is probably not due much respect.
Not to sound racist, but are all black people black?
Yes, they aren’t.
“No offence, but with all due respect, and not to sound racist and and spit on your beliefs, but”. There, the douche quadfecta.
It’s the polite version of blunt rudeness.
Although… this is Dorothy. It might just be her matter-of-fact tone.
Random aside: lookit what I made!
They are pinback badges, if it’s hard to tell. I make them all the time. Got a jacket with like a hundred on them that I wear to cons, all different characters I like.
Figured it was high time I made some DoA ones.
Nice!
sweeeeet
I want that Dina one! Eee. You will look super nifty sporting these!
So amazing!!!
I am throwing money at the screeen, but its not working!
Nah, man, you have to use credit cards. Computers from the 90s should have coin slots, though.
These are awesome. 😀
I want the Ruth one.
And i am sure that quote will continue to encourage you as rip your hair out because the opposition party has decided to filibuster the procedural vote to begin discussion on the proposed senate version of your bill, after its been marked up with pork. this of course if your party has somehow managed to secure majority in the senate.
Dorothy’s political tactics are hard reason and rationality, and her bill is overturned by someone whose political tactic is “Kumbaya”.
Sierra’s going to run for president? Fascinating.
http://squallloir.tumblr.com/post/59391683695/paid-for-by-supporters-of-canvashat
Heh. Take that progress!
Jesus christ. Lighten up, Francis.
Did Dorothy just insult her kind, reasonable parents?
Kids will always bongo to their parents cuz we gotta rebel. Even if they’re the nicest parents.
Just look at Mike, if you want to see what could have happened to Dotty if her parents were any nicer.
Yeah. She’s got an issue about not being taken as seriously as she takes herself. Heck, she get’s irritated when SHE doesn’t take herself as seriously as she thinks she should.
No Willis, I want to grow up to have kids with Dorothy.
I don’t know. Such a high achiever would make me feel ashamed about my own accomplishments. But then again, I’d like the money.
I am also a high achiever so it wouldn’t bother me so much.
Higher that Dorothy? HIGHER THAN DANA?
Not as high as Dorothy, but…
Why are we talking about me again?
I saw the chance for a pun, and I made it.
Dotty is so high right now
Dorothy I know you’re smart and stuff but saying “No offense” doesn’t make it unoffensive, especially when you’re kinda badgering your parents.
Shut up Dany, just cause she dumped you that’s no reason to complain about her.
“I’m not racist, but…”
“…I bought Pokemon White because I really wanted Quagsire.”
You mean Pokemon Gold right? You know since Quagsire is a Gen 2 Pokemon.
Son, first rule of comedy, never let facts get in the way of a good joke.
Quagsire can be caught in Pokemon White, but not in Pokemon Black.
🙁
Everyone’s a little bit racist!
You’re a little bit too!
Oh Dorothy, you hopelessly ambitious idealist. I hope you get to accomplish at least a couple of the dreams you have in mind right now.
Namely becoming an addition to that Caramel Statue.
So, We still need to see Amber talk with her mom, Ethan with his parents and Billie with Walky’s (which makes the Sal situation even worse if they pay Billie more attention than Sal).
And we need Joyce’s parents to remove their hands from Joyce’s head.
And we need to see Dina’s parents in a staring contest.
With Mike.
And Roadblock.
And Historical Jesus.
And B:ATS and BATB Batman.
And “Beware the Batman” Batman for good measure.
And some goldfish.
Considering how Billie talked about them like they were the people who were actually parental to her (rather than her own)? I think that’s the case. 🙁
I think they are incredibly well meaning, but at the same time the: You can do it because you can make it possible stuff can be pretty painful pressure.
It creates a situation that if you fail, its because you didn’t want it enough, you didn’t work hard enough.
I was very gifted mentally in school. Always the top of my class. My mom always had the attitude of “you can do anything you set your mind to” so every time I failed at something (which I’ll admit wasn’t often), I saw it as a failure not of it being a difficult situation that most people couldn’t of overcome, but of me not trying hard enough, or that I wasn’t as smart as I thought I was.
I eventually burned out. I stopped caring about school because I was so afraid of failure that it was easier just to not try. Then I knew exactly why I failed, but I could keep the illusion in my head that “If I had tried, I could have done it.”
I ended up dropping out at 17, even though I was still, not trying, on track to be Star Student (at our school it was the student with the highest SAT scores that was in the top 10% of the class academically). Now me dropping out was unrelated to school, it was other reasons, but I didn’t go back to school for another decade, because I didn’t want to fail.
I wasted 10 years of my life doing menial labor despite my intelligence, because I was always told I could do anything, and I was afraid that if I tried and failed, it was because I was fundamentally flawed in some way.
+1 to all this – only I got through two years of college before giving up completely, and I’ve yet to end up in a position where I can go back.
(Also, it didn’t help that I had a teacher in elementary school who basically punished me for finding most schoolwork effortless, which encouraged skiving off.)
+2 to this, except I kept going through school and college and grad school through sheer stubbornness and a desperate need to find something, ANYTHING, that I could care enough about to actually DO. (When every person and test tells you you can do anything, it really can leave you rudderless in a f’ed up way). I eventually found contentedness as a librarian in a university setting… Just before the branch campus I worked at was shuttered.
The first two paragraphs of this. I’m (‘still’?) at a stage of bullheaded stubbornness no matter what, and also of being irritated at such sentiments rather than let them affect me deeply, but it is in any case quite a hurtful thing to be told. “I believe you’ll succeed! No matter what results you produce, they’re either a given or a letdown. Oh, and by treating your success as a given I’m also downplaying all work, all struggle, all stress that you may face in trying to turn your results from a default failure to a just-grasped success. What, why are you upset? I was being /supportive!/”
It’s a very irresponsible thing to say to someone, and deserves to be called out.
—
Stepping back and looking at the strip’s situation again, Dorothy’s mother is effectively lying through her teeth. What she /should/ be saying is what Danny said, that ‘Well, it’s true that your future could go that way, but just in case it goes that other way instead we don’t loss anything by covering all corners.’ –Which is what causes Dorothy to blow up at the mere idea, which is why she dumped her boyfriend and immediately got another (which is who she’ll be with if she ends up not transferring) instead of staying with her boyfriend (and being with him if she ends up not transferring). She’s not doing something of the same level to her parents, though.
Back to the ‘lying through her teeth’ part. This is, to put it in paternity test terms, the difference between ‘This paternity test is so there will be no doubt that this child is ours, for the strongest possible bonds between us.’ and ‘Of course this paternity test won’t make me any more certain that this child is ours! There’s absolutely no reason to spend all this money on it! I’m spending all this money on it anyway.’
‘I’m meeting your boyfriend, just in case things go differently from how you expect them to.’
‘Things going differently from how I expect them to is IMPOSSIBLE!’
‘Oh, I know it’s impossible. Pretend my last sentence never happened. Now let’s go meet your boyfriend even though there’s absolutely no reason to.’
we don’t loss anything -> we don’t lose anything
Augh.
I’m of the mind that Dorothy hears constantly from everyone that she can’t or won’t achieve what she wants to do, or will inevitably give up on it — even (and especially) from her ex-boyfriend — and her parents are the only supportive oasis in a storm of folks telling her she’s too female and too atheist to ever achieve what she wants, who roll their eyes when they hear what her goal is.
Dorothy is not conflicted over what she wants to do, nor is she rudderless. Constantly reminding her of her ability to fail is not adding anything beneficial when that is what the world is already always whispering in her ear.
People are different and need to be told different things, knowingly relative to their situations. What’s destructive for one is not always destructive for another.
But that’s not the only consequence. As was stated before, the “you can do anything you set your mind to” mentality can be twisted into “all those things you failed at? You could do them if only you tried a little harder.”
That’s most likely not whats going to happen, of course, but everything has consequences, no matter how well intentioned the original action was. Just look at Mr. Walkerton’s comment on Sal’s hair.
EVERYTHING you say can be twisted. There is no single thing to say to everyone that will work with 100% of people 100% of the time. Again, people are different. So the lesson I’m taking away from all you folks is that there is NOTHING positive you can say to your child, ever.
That’s one way of putting it, yeah. Or at least be prepared for anything that comes up.
But you’re extremely right in that it depends on who you’re talking to. Telling Anakin to suppress his emotions didn’t really work out the way the Jedi hoped, for instance.
All of the Jedi’s lessons are pretty terrible anyway.
Not if you consider that they’re meant for people who can literally kill people with a stray thought, and that the psychological needs of thousands of alien species have to be accounted for.
Well they really have a bad track record on that end. The Council not wanting to fight the Mandalorians ended up resurrecting the Sith Empire and nearly wiping out the Jedi Order.
You’d think they’d learn to deal with these kinds of things by now. Especially since they usually end in genocide.
If you try to frame someone as having perfect parents, to the point that all of us are apparently supposed to aspire to be like them, don’t be surprised if someone who had similar parents isn’t all rainbows and pots of gold.
Actually, this pisses me off more than Blaine, or Joyce’s parents honestly. Not their actions. The way people REACT to it. Blaine is a shitty parent. Everyone knows it. Straight up. Everyone just sees Dorothy’s parents and go “wow, look how perfect they are, just like out of a storybook.” And let me tell you that line in the final panel just feels so ridiculously rehearsed and… unreal. Its like it was taken directly from a selfhelp parenting book.
Are the Keeners bad parents? Hell no. They seem like really well meaning people who are approaching things the best way they know how. But they sure as hell aren’t perfect.
My mother was this. I do my best NOT to be this to my children, because I am hyper aware of the possible consequences because I lived through it.
My mother was also this. She told me I could do anything I wanted and that I’d be great at it. (Except go to art school because they’re all gay communist liberals there.) Just because she told me, I believed that if I got a job at McDonald’s I’d be running the place in a week. Which is hilarious, because she never let me out of the house or do anything or listen to music or watch television or talk to most people and so my people skills were roughly that of a five-year-old’s until the day I got into college… and basically flunked out.
So, yes, nothing but constant praise. I was always better than everyone else, allegedly, a genius savant who was always moments away from being World Leader Of All You Stupid Yahoos. I was given an amazingly inflated sense of what I could do that was in no way crafted in proportion to my actual abilities, setting me up for in inevitable fall.
But Dorothy is not me. And I don’t have ill will towards Dorothy’s parents for choosing what they say according to Dorothy’s needs, even if those were the words that caused me such stress. To Dorothy, they are a reassurance, because her conflict and her fears and her personality are incredibly different from mine.
Oh screw this. If me commenting on your feed just results in you mocking my life experience on your twitter feed because I criticized your idealized parents, then I’m out.
idealized concept of parenthood*
I’m pretty sure I wrote that before you wrote anything here, but, um, okay?
The first post I made on this comic was 18 minutes after it went up, and I think I was I believe (I can’t find any earlier ones) first person to not think they are perfect parents.
I’m pretty sure you were responding to me and or the people who agreed with me.
I like your comic, but you oftentimes react to anyone who disagrees with you with blatant mocking. Which is fine when someone is being racist, or sexist, or any number of other actual HARMFUL things, but its kind of shitty when its a difference of opinion on the effects of a well meaning but possibly pressure inducing statement.
If I was mocking your posts from 16 hours ago, my tweet would have been from 16 hours ago instead of four.
And it’s distinctly possible I was mocking posts which are now exiled to the spam folder, and not something anyone but myself has read.
If that is the case, I apologize.
… Your unapproved comments must be absolutely batshit.
They really are. He lets plenty of bullshit comments in, so you can imagine where he draws the line.
There is very little chance anyone is going to see this, but Imma post here anyway.
SO my two cents are this.
No matter how you raise a child, they will have faults.
No matter how you parent, you will screw up.
It’s normal and natural.
Yes, I do believe that the Keeners are putting the daughter under stress to succeed. But it also gives her the confidence to try.
Every lesson has an opposite that goes with it. Every lesson.
Confidence can breed pride.
Moderation can breed hesitation.
Selflessness can breed recklessness.
Each lesson breeds a fault the child will have to solve. The Keeners aren’t perfect. But they are trying to shape Dorothy into a confident and self-reliant woman. They want her to be who she wants and they’re trying to give her the tools she’ll need. She has good parents, open and accepting.
And they try.
More importantly, Dorothy can see they try.
And that can make all the difference in the world, because it means she can learn the negatives of the lessons she’s been taught are less than the positives.
That working is good, but overworking is bad.
That interest in something doesn’t have to be overbearing.
She has good parents. Good, but not perfect.
But they are good.
That’s a bit harsh. I think Mrs K is being gently sarcastic, as a response to her daughter’s ‘inoffensive’ dig about their achievements. And Dorothy knows it, hence the quip about congress.
Also, that was difficult to write without a huge alliteration dump. Just sayin’.
Quote: “‘I’m meeting your boyfriend, just in case things go differently from how you expect them to.’
‘Things going differently from how I expect them to is IMPOSSIBLE!’
‘Oh, I know it’s impossible. Pretend my last sentence never happened. Now let’s go meet your boyfriend even though there’s absolutely no reason to.’”
I read it more like this:
‘I’m meeting your boyfriend. You never know, things might go differently from how you expect them to.’
‘Things going differently from how I expect them to is IMPOSSIBLE!’
‘I still want to meet him.’ Because my 18 year old daughter has a new boyfriend (not just a fling), and I’d want to meet anyone she was involved with.
Also on the flip side of this: I find her comments in the second panel a really good example of the appropriate way to remind Dorothy that not every part of your life has to be planned to the T, and sometimes you will find things that make you happy in life when you aren’t even looking and it won’t be what you expect.
Well, Dorothy. We made you. So technically everything you accomplished is our accomplishment cuz we raised you so technically we’ve accomplished DOUBLE.
Dorothy, we know you want to protect the world from devastation, and unite all people within your nation, but can we meet your not super serious boyfriend now?
The concept of “rich” is based on economic disparity. An’ someday I wanna be rich. Dorothy, from now on, you may consider yourself … MY ENEMY.
you’ve been warned.
A vote for Dorothy is a vote against Batman?
When you ride with Dorothy, you ride with the penguin.
“Dorothy says she wants to help the poor, but she associates with Wall Street fatcats!”
Cut to image of the Penguin and Catman, confused.
“Dorothy says she advocates gun control, but she still associates with people who frequently use umbrella guns.”
“Dorothy Keener says that her bill will help ‘aid economic disparity’. Well, Dorothy Keener said a lot of things. Dorothy Keener said that we should trust Harvey Dent. And what did we get from that? No, I say we keep Keener’s bill out of Congress, and keep hard-working businessmen like Tobias Whale and Carmine Falcone and Warren White from being persecuted in this so-called socialist utopia!”
–Glorious Godfrey.
So I have to chose between my webcomic crush and the best super hero of all times? NO FAIR!
I don’t like Dorothy much today.
You gotta hate at least one character per comic.
That’s why we have Blaine.
And Walky’s parents.
And Joyce’s parents.
And Ryan.
And Faz.
And Naomi Siegal. Hard to hate Saul Siegal though. Partly because his name makes him sound like a Spiderman villain.
And Mike, when he’s feeling particularly assholeish.
I have a tendency to unreasonably assume that any real pathos I experience is an author’s attempt to manipulate my emotions, and so I discard the sensation instantly. It’s a totally unfair impulse because I rarely distinguish between well-written pathos and a hamfisted attempt to make me feel something.
Which is probably why, although I don’t think Dotty’s parents are the worst, or even remotely bad, I’m more galled at this embarrassing enthusiasm from the parents Keener than the Brown’s emotional blackmail or Blaine’s fucking shitty shitfuckery.
To clarify, because I have a solipsistic belief that all of David’s tweets are directed at me personally: I don’t think the Keeners are bad parents. They’re clearly excellent parents.
They just remind me of my parents, where the pressure of their enthusiasm and expectations drove me to make bad decisions because I wanted to please them, even though they totally didn’t want that for me.
Seriously, Willis, do you know my parents? I mean, I’m pretty sure I’ve heard my mom say everything Deborah says here, almost word for word.
Yes, even the “Your dad was my fling” part. -shivers-
FYI, since my comments sometimes get misconstrued, I’d never trade my parents or how they raised me. They can be embarrassing, but I can genuinely say I wouldn’t be where I am without their support. I am very, very lucky.
That said, Mrs. Keener, dude, relax. It’s the first month of freshman year. I don’t know how it is for normal people, but six years later I keep in contact with less than 1% of the people I made friends with that year, much less the people I thought were my friends during the first month. Heck, looking at the people most important to me in October 2006, several of them didn’t even make it to winter break.
If this weren’t a comic strip, there’d be a nontrivial chance that Dorothy and Walky will break up in the next couple weeks and then never speak to each other ever again. It’s way too early to have designs on the rest of your daughter’s life.
This comic’s hovertext provoked a response:
“Hey, that’s me!”
Just gotta fine myself a real-world equivalent to Dorothy’s mom and convince her we should make baby. Or babies.
Yes, Dorothy was rude and arrogant to her parents. Being rude and arrogant is in the teenagers’ job description. I like how her parents have obviously decided to blow it off. I think the Keeners choose their battles wisely.
I don’t know, being so practical about some things (breaking up with Danny, closely “regulating” her relationships like that, etc) in order to achieve her ambitions does make personally make me a bit uncomfortable.
Plenty of people in positions of power are pretty much sociopaths.
I think there was more to her breakup than that, which has been argued repeatedly in the comics relating to their relationship.
Namely, that she was worried that Danny was revolving his entire life around Dorothy, which isn’t particularly healthy. Relationship or no, you need your own friends, goals, dreams, etc. Danny really didn’t have -any- of those things’, except Joe as a friend. His entire goal in life was to be with Dorothy forever no matter what she did, which likely wouldn’t end spectacularly.
I have been Joe’d.
And it was beautiful.
Dorothy, ambitious as she is, might not ultimately be happiest as President of the United States. There are many qualities that a serious contender for the top political job (or the top of almost any career) has to have that Dorothy does not seem to have developed yet.
Chief among these missing qualities is the ability to eagerly receive a turd sandwich from someone you hate, take a big bite without hesitation, chew, swallow, keep smiling, and then compliment the person you hate’s culinary skills in front of a big crowd of people.
Dorothy obviously has the drive to learn the academic skills, but she has not shown any aptitude for the people skills. She may be much happier angling for the much more influential position of Chief Justice of the Supreme Court than the transient impact of the Presidency.
Oh, that’s what internships are for.
I know that this is nit-picky, but for some reason, it’s really bothering me that Dorothy is missing a cheek-shading in panel 3.
Is there an obvious reason there I’m missing?
The sunlight is coming from the direction of the upper-right section of the panel.
Nah, that wouldn’t matter, given the cheek-shadings of the panels before and after. Now that it has been drawn to my attention, it’s playing havok with my perception of depth. It makes it seem like Dorothy’s left lens is floating about four inches in front of where it should be.
I don’t even want to be parents and I want to be like Dorothy’s parents
There’s nothing wrong or rude in wanting more than your parents. Most parents want you to want that.
There’s definitely not. It’s just the wording of “what I want is *way beyond* what you’ve accomplished” that can come across as belittling towards your parents. You can express lofty goals without looking down on other people, especially the people who put you in the position to aspire to those goals.
She’s not looking down on them though. She doesn’t insult what they’ve accomplished, only says she wants way more than that.
I love how the comment section has turned into “judge the parents”. I’m guessing most of us aren’t parents yet (at least not with 18 year olds) which makes it a bit silly to be making so many absolute sounding judgements.
I have two children, one in middle school, and one in elementary school.
I criticized them because “you can do it if you put your mind to it” is a terrible concept when its put to something that only 0.0000015% of the current US population has ever accomplished might not be the best course of action.
Encouragement is good, telling her that she can unequivocally do it if its what she wants is just unrealistic bullshit. You can be encouraging without that.
My daughter told me she wanted to be a fiction writer when she grew up. I told her that was awesome, and a great goal, and if that’s what she really wants, she should work towards it and work to be better at it, and that I would support her all the way. But its not an easy field to support yourself in, and you are going to face a lot of adversity to get there, and you may not succeed. But trying is better than giving up before you start.
No where in there did I tell her if she tried hard enough she would get it. Because that is what my parents did to me. And everything I didn’t get made me feel like a failure.
and it might not be the best course of action* Damn you grammar.
I’m of the opinion (the rational but zero experience opinion) that there are a million acceptable ways to raise kids. Obviously abuse and whatnot create permanent problems but outside of those extremes, I really don’t think there is a specific set of rules that are “best”.
As far as I can tell every generation revises the way they were raised and confidently makes changes so that their kids won’t go through whatever it is that they went through. And then their kids do the same.
Add in advice from friends and self-help material and everyone is an expert and their nurture plan is the best and everyone else is abusing their children or raising them to be [insert negative personality trait].
That said, a parent who’s confident with their nurture plan is probably better than one who isn’t, so all of the above isn’t really a bad thing.
tl;dr
Humans are insane.
I’m not saying they are bad parents. I’m saying that the perfect idyllic way they are being portrayed isn’t without possible consequences.
Yes, they are a billion times better parents than some of the others we’ve seen in the story (then again, with Blaine and Joyce’s parents that doesn’t really take a lot), but I hate the idyllic “this is the parents you should be” that we are being pushed.
I don’t think they are doing the best thing, and they are being framed as perfect, so much so that the mouseover text makes it sound like this is what we all aspire to be as parents.
This is the childhood I grew up with, and it wasn’t perfect.
I honestly thought the alt-text meant that out of all the parents we’ve seen so far.’
I’m reading this on a tablet (because they are way cool, despite webcomic writers attempting to convince me otherwise) as of now. What exactly does the hover text say?
“We all want to grow up to be Dorothy’s parents (if we want to grow up to be parents.)”
I can actually see how that could annoy people (I want to grow up to be Mike’s parents, for instance). They’re certainly not bad people, but still.
Dorothy’s also 18 and probably knows that, so there’s no need to tell her, so being encouraging and saying that you believe she can do it seems perfectly reasonable, especially if she does genuinely believe that Dorothy can do it. If Dorothy were 4, I’d probably agree with you.
18 through 22 year olds can still be remarkably naive and unworldly. Even the ones who appear smart like Dorothy.
It’s the smart ones who have the hardest time seeing the own limits of their cleverness. If you’ve consistently tested in the top 1% ever since you were a wee bairn, you’ve been given some pretty well-documented proof that you are something special, and therefore are destined to achieve the greatest things. The reality that the highest achievement needs more than pure book-learning, and that you are waaaay behind the curve on those crucial social skills is a very rude slap in the face when it finally gets past the certainty that you, unlike all the other know-it-all college students, actually do know everything worth knowing.
(Personal experience and an extra quarter-century of perspective here. And hindsight is a real kick in the gonads, let me tell you.)
But Dorothy’s parents, being the age they are, have probably learned one of the great secrets, which is: 99 times out of 100, you can tell someone 18-25 what their problem is and exactly how to solve it, but it will not take root and they will have to learn the lesson themselves, the hard way.
Yeah I was thinking along those lines too.
That and here at Indianna she is the top %. To get into Yale, she’s going to be competing against everyone else who is the top %. I suspect that she is unwittingly assuming that because she’s put in the work and deserves a place at Yale, that she is automatically going to get it. My sister passed an exam to get into a prestigious school, along with 700 other people for 200 available places. She had the brains, but wasn’t offered a place.
Once again, you’re assuming that she doesn’t actually believe what she’s saying.
I love all this “dude, she insulted her mom” nonsense. She said she wanted to do more than her mom had done. So? She didn’t disparage her mom’s life choices, she didn’t call her a failure, she didn’t actually insult her, just say “I want to do more with my life than you did”. That bongo?
The funny thing is that Dorothy really has no idea what her parents have accomplished. Her parents have gone out into the world, achieved a happy middle-class experience, and raised a bright and self-assured child who has never had to even think about how privileged she actually is. The fact that Dorothy’s biggest concern in life is that she might be slightly sidetracked on the road to the very top of the world means that her parents were amazingly successful at all the things that are important in life.
That doesn’t mean that becoming President isn’t objectively more than that.
Dorothy needs to watch out or she’ll grow up to become Linda, high expectations that aren’t met have a way of curdling and being pushed onto the next generation.
Wow, Dorothy actually has good parents. I get the horrible feeling that they are going to die.
Obviously Blaine is going to find the time to hit them with a truck.
I’m not sure why, but Dorothy’s dad looks adorable. Maybe it is because he looks like an older, male version of Dorothy?
I don’t think I fully understand what Dorothy said. Did she mean accomplishments in a relationship or in life in general?
Life in general. Remember, this is the girl who’s aiming for presidency.
How…predictable. Dotty has the best parents and appreciates them the least.
We’re all forgetting one very important thing. While all this is happening, Dina is still trapped in a room with Faz.
And vice versa…
You mess with the Raptor, you get the claws
I actually sort of love that those two are interacting. Faz is so vile that he’s actually provoking emotional reactions from Dina, and that’s somehow nice to see.
Mostly because it means that she could get rid of him with a scolding similar to the one given to Joyce.
Wait, didn’t the Keeners also set up a meeting with the Wilcoxes?
They only said they “might have lunch”. I’d bet everyone assumes that is out the window since Danny’s parents found out about the break-up.
I believe you mean “Wilcoxen.”
*reads whole comic*
*gets to this page*
*tries to go forward*
*realizes i’ve been reading too much*
:c
Look Dotty. Having big, huge, astronomical hopes and dreams and plans is great. Really. Just please try to remember that 1.) Your hopes and dreams are not inherently better than anyone else’s just cause yours are less likely to come true. 2.) You aren’t the president yet. 3.) Life is full of setbacks, compromises and delays. Do not judge your worth or the worth on others based on how far you get on your own fantasy timetable, cause failing to meet that timetable (and you will, cause life is never as quick or perfect as your fantasy version of it) will crush your self-image years before you even have a chance to make it all the way.
I just realized that, to the best of my knowledge, Walky has yet to shout “wiigii”
And you should thank whatever cosmic power you subscribe to for that.
You know the rollover text makes me curious. Are there plans for a little Willis?