Hey, guys, I’m gonna have an artist alley table at BotCon 2013 this weekend in San Diego! Since the comic runs seven days a week I can’t really shove the usual “HEY GUYS” comic-replacing image in your face, so hopefully somebody reads this down here. (Though it’s BotCon, which is really more of a Shortpacked! audience, so well, y’know. I’ll have Dumbing of Age books and some posters, regardless.) Here’s my tentative at-table schedule, so I’ll have time to do Transformery things myself:
Friday
3 to 5pm (Friday is not open to general admission)
Saturday
9 to 10am
Noon to 1pm
2 to 5pm
Sunday
11am to 3:30pm
If you have like Transformers phobia or something, don’t worry, I’ll also be at San Diego Comic-Con a few weeks later.
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“WHY DO I HAVE TO EVER BE WRONG”
Becuase human beings are not omniscience.
Why do you keep abusing the English language so badly? Its taking refuge from you in a shelter for abused grammar!
I’m dysgraphic, what’s your excuse.
I thought that was just a handwriting thing. You live and learn, I guess…
I presume you mean dyslexic, other wise I’ve just learned of a new thing… …scary! 😀
You forgot the apostrophe in “it’s,” which is a conjunction of “it is.”
If you’re (that’s “you are”) going to complain about somebody’s (that’s the possessive apostrophe, meaning “belonging to somebody”) use of the English language, especially if it’s (“it is” again, there) not hard to understand what they were trying to say, you’d (“you had”) better make sure that your own grammar is absolutely perfect.
I was referring to the English language as an individual for metaphorical purposes, hence it was absolutely correct to leave out the apostrophe. (You people do know what metaphors are, right?)
Nope, it still makes the “it” possessive. That, followed by “taking refuge in a shelter”, means that the apostrophe is still necessary.
So stop being a nazi about it when others get it wrong, because you’re just as guilty as the rest of them.
While I’m not a native speaker of English, I don’t think that’s how it works. As far as I know, “its” (without the apostrophe) is the possessive to “it” (as in: “The English language is buying its head in the sand, out of fear for its grammar.”) and can’t be used in place of “it’s” (contraction of “it is“), even if the “it” is a personification in a metaphor.
The generally accepted rules of English grammar dictate that an apostrophe may only be used for the contraction “it is” not for the possessive word “Its”. In the sentence above I was indicating that the English language was seeking shelter at a clinic for abused spouses; therefore the word in question should be “Its”, which is a possessive, indicating that the English language is taking itself to a place of shelter.
I’m not an expert in grammar by anyone’s definition, but for you to have intentionally used the possessive in your sentence would make absolutely no sense. The equivalent would be saying “Megan’s taking refuge.” Which doesn’t make grammatical sense either, or “Taking refuge belongs to the English language,” which still does not make sense. You meant “It is taking refuge,” which means your original sentence should have an apostrophe.
Leor, settle the hell down or you’re getting a serious time out.
(also you are not great at wallpapering over your own mistakes)
That would imply that it owns a “taking refuge”, which makes no sense. It’s like typing the wrong form of correct.
Your name reminds me of Warhammer 40k.
I don’t see it.
Mkvenner is one of the Gaunt’s Ghosts. Rather than give space-Scotsmen Mc or Mac names with capitals afterwards, they have Mk names with no second capital. They still apparently wear tartan though.
Ah, okay I get it. Is that the name of a Marines Chapter or a Regiment of the Imperial Guard?
Gaunt’s Ghosts are an Imperial Guard regiment AKA the Tanith First-and-Only
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/GauntsGhosts?from=Main.GauntsGhosts
Welcome to reality, remember to tip your cabbie.
But I don’t believe in tipping cabbies!
This is Indiana. We don’t tip cabbies. We tip cows.
In Illinois you tip corn. To make it more fun you should make some pretty designs.
In Iowa CORN TIP YOU!
Wait, did Iowa get taken over by the russians?
Red Dawn was true!
O MY GOD that avatar is perfect.
Iowans are the American Russians! Hmm…Is there an international equivalent for Texans? “Texans are the American ______s!”
They’re just Texan’s, that’s all that needs saying.
“Some people believe that if we ever found out the meaning of life, the universe would cease to exist and be replaced by something even stranger.
Others believe this has already happened.”
That’s right Joyce. People spent 18 years teaching you to fear nothing. NOTHIIIIIINNNNGGG!
The point I’m making is, someone needs to clean up the poo by the stairs.
But nothing is scarier then nothing!
“The only thing there is to fear is fear itself… and me! The ghost of Franklin Delano Roosevelt!”
That’s how they get you.
Don’t worry, Billie and Ruth Stuff should be in the future, oh wait, that’s also depressing >_> I guess there is also Ethan and Amber, but that’s sad too. I guess you’re out of luck Willis.
This is why we need more Marcie and Sierra.
I’m going to start drawing these two together if Willis doesn’t.
And that would stop you otherwise?
Necessity is the mother of fan-art.
Erotica, it’s father.
Pants-Shitting Insanity, it’s paternal grandmother.
Horrible grammar and brain destroying raping of the english language it’s inbred second cousin trice removed.
Marsierra! SUPER ADVENTURES!
Christianity is really good at making different and “evil” seem very similar.
Every raligion does that or has sects that do that.
Most orginized anythings do. That’s why I believe in ANARCHY! Drives a car through a mall.*
Baby clothes…This place has got everything.
I see the new Buicks are in.
Punches Kryptonians through a gas station. Wait, wrong comic.
@Mkvenner: No, not all religions do that. (Also some of the ones that do teach their children that those who don’t belong to their sect are dangerous have legitimate fears of persecution. Try going through twenty centuries of mass expulsions, forced conversions, pogroms, death camps and suicide bombers and not having a chip on your shoulder.)
*Pats on back*
You are treading on dangerous waters here. I hope you are careful.
Hey, I’m not the one making broad generalizations with a poor command of English here. I’m merely pointing out that there are plenty of religious minorities who have a good reason to educate their children in a separate environment from the rest of the world, especially when parts of that world fears and hates them. Joyce merely happens not to belong to such a group and has no good excuse for having been raised in an epistemological bubble.
Speaking as a member of such a minority, I would say that
LOTS of people around the world live in such bubbles, epistemological
or otherwise. That’s usually where the pogroms and suicide
bombings come from. And there’s no shortage of people who go off to
college and find shiny new bubbles to protect themselves from new or
complicated ideas.
The trouble with bubbles is that they only provide the illusion of safety,
informational isolation doesn’t make you smarter or stronger, and history makes it clear that it’s never made anyone any safer. Prudence is wise, but willful ignorance is dangerous for everyone. And if I put a chip on my
shoulder, it’s not going to protect my shoulder.
1: sumolegend… You might want to change your gravatar… It undermines your arguements by existing. 2: chips based on religion do not grow there naturally. They are placed there due to experience or, more likely, upbringing. 3: separating people from others only reinforces people to ostracize others that don’t fit their group. Even from the group that’s being persecuted.
1. Too bad, I love this ridiculous grav, captures my personality.
2. The chip leor was referring to had more to do with history
than religion per se. The point I was trying to make is
that I think open-eyed vigilance
is more useful (and healthy) that bleary eyed grudges.
3. I’m having a little trouble with your grammar, but
I guess your making, like, a more platitudinal version of
the point I was making? I’m not going to condemn
everyone that ever formed a separate group, that’s a pretty
darn hardline stance. I’m just wary of people embattling
themselves against large amounts of basic information,
whether they are in the minority or not.
I was having a hard time phrasing the third, but yeah, essentially.
sumolegend is correct: I’m referring to historical events not religious doctrine. Learning hard truths from history about how to behave when you are a persecuted ethno-religious minority. (Note my use of the prefix ethno- .)
I don’t believe that people should wall themselves off from learning basic facts. And I have no desire to segregate myself from other groups. But just because I went to college, work alongside and play D&D with people from other ethnicities and religions, doesn’t mean I don’t still have to deal with people who, for example, insult me to my face.
Around six years ago I was running a D&D game at a FLGS as part of a series of weekly tournament events. During this particular game, one of the players got frustrated with his poor d20 rolls, keeping his PC from hitting a monster. After missing three times and getting hit twice, he said “That [the monster] is such a Jew!” The game ground to a halt, as one of the other players called the offending player out on his boorishness, pointing out that the DM (yours truly), plus herself and another player were all Jewish. One of the other (non-Jewish) players said “Not cool dude,” and the player who made the comment sheepishly apologized. I accepted his apology, and the game resumed, with the player’s dice giving better results and the monsters quickly died.
tl;dr My point is that there is a wide gulf between deliberately shunning the rest of the world and immersing oneself in society in order to get the best that society has to offer. But even those who might want to do the latter end up needing to build “shields” due to blatant bigotry, let alone values they do not agree with.
It’s mostly other religious who antagonize them. Atheists tend to get persecuted…not the other way around. Getting made fun on Youtube doesn’t count either.
But there are always going to be a few Arse holes who have to ruin it for everyone else.
Could you please clarify what you mean by “a few” and “ruin it for everyone else”?
Oh, i can give you an example! Neturei Karta:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta#Moshe_Hirsch_faction
These guys are so seclusive that they view other Jews who don’t belong to their sect as worse than “goim”. Actually There are more than few Haredim courts that are as seclusive as evangelical Christians, and view other Jewish traditions, and even other interpretations of orthodox Judaism as heresy.
First of all, all Orthodox Jews, including Modern Orthodox Jews, view other Jewish “movements” (Reform, Conservative, Roconstructionist) as heresy, not just the Haredi and Yeshivish “velt“. But that doesn’t mean that Reform Jews stop being Jews. (Their children is sometimes another story…)
Secondly, Haredim don’t organize themselves into “courts”; you’re thinking of Hasidim. There is a large overlap between Hasidim and Haredim, but they are not identical. Not all Haredim subscribe to Hasidic beliefs, and not all Hasidim follow a Haredi lifestyle.
Hasidim belong to a Hasidic court (Ger, Breslov, Lubavitch, Satmar, Toldos Avraham Yitzchak, Boston), follow a rebbe and engage in a form of ecstatic worship, singing, dancing, telling stories.
Haredim follow a specific lifestyle, segregating themselves from outside influences to as large a degree as possible. They eschew certain parts of the modern world and seek to live a lifestyle dedicated to piety and devotion.
There are Hasidim who do not live a Haredi lifestyle; they may dress in different clothing, listen to secular music or go to movies, or send their children to college. But they still go to their rebbe’s tisch Friday nights, travel to Uman for Rosh HaShana if they are Breslovers, and hang a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe in their homes.
There are a large number of Haredim who are not Hasidim. Some are from the anti-Hasidic Lithuianian tradition (“Mitnagdim”), others are Sepharadi/Mizrachi Jews who follow a “Chacham” like Rabbi Ovadiya Yosef. Either way they have different, non-Hasidic traditions.
tl;dr Read it anyway. What do you people have the attention spans of fruit flies?
Leor613, you’re not serving as a very good representative of our people and our religion, with your arrogant, confrontational language and in particular your singling out of Mkvenner for mockery. I suggest you reread the passages in halakhic texts dealing with hillul ha-Shem vs. kiddush ha-Shem (profanation vs. sanctification of the divine Name) in terms of how Jews should present themselves to the world. Be a mensch, leor613, and be well. Peace.
O.K fine courts is not the word i looked for, i guess communities was the right one. Or maybe is should have focus on certin yeshivot or the words of certin Rabbies.
The people i was talking about showcase the same presicution complex east european jews have developed in the middle ages (sadly for a good reson) torwords secular (tradithion holding or not) Jews.
Also i don’t know how do prthodox, conservative and reform jews are interacting abroad but here in israel, shas and yahadut hatora are doing their best to prevent the state from passing any law that recognise any form of jewdaism tha isn’t their own.
This may surprise you, ender1200, but I don’t object to hilonim (or their secular American counterparts). I don’t even have that much of a problem with the more right-wing branch of Conservative Judaism. (JTS used to produce great scholars, though the quality has declined over the past twenty five years.) I object to the American Reform movement (and its bastion of “scholarship, Hebrew Union College) and the damage they inflicted to Judaism and to Jewish lives.
At a time when Jewish immigrants were debating whether to keep Shabbos or go hungry because employers would fire anyone who didn’t show up Saturday (or left before 7:00 PM Fridays), rich Reform Jews were installing organs in their Temples, taking a scalpel to the siddur and distancing themselves from their “degenerate” cousins from the Russian Empire. At a time when Baron Rothschild was funding new settlements in Palestine, like Rishon L’Tzion and Zichron Ya’akov, the Reform movement was removing any reference to Ereretz Yisrael, the Beis HaMikdash or Jerusalem from their prayers. When Hillel Kook (aka Peter Bergson) was trying to raise money to save Jews from the Nazis and lobby FDR to act like he gave a damn about saving Jews, Reform Rabbi Steven Wise was villifying Kook.
The results of Reform Judaism in America is a 70% intermarriage rate among American Jews. Even in the Soviet Union the intermarriage rate wasn’t that high. Israel is better off ignoring the Reform and Conservative movements. Unless two million Reform Jews make Aliya from America, they are basically complaining about a country they have severed their ties to.
Also, I am aware of the tense relations between Haredim and the rest of Israeli society at the moment. I think that both sides need to tone down the hyperbole. The Haredi newspapers need to stop declaring Yair Lapid the next incarnation of Czar Nicholas I. And the Hilonim need to stop comparing Haredim to vermin and parasites.
The fact is that the Haredim need to teach their children math, science, English (and in some cases conversational Hebrew), but they won’t do so if they feel threatened. And the Hilonim could frankly benefit from interacting on a regular basis with frum Jews (Haredi or Dati Leumi), but I know that you won’t if the Haredim continue to isolate themselves and make themselves out to be victims. The problems in Israel are not beyond solving, it just requires both sides to want it. How did Herzl put, “If you will it, it is no dream,”?
You should probably notice there’s an ‘or’ there.
It is still an over generalization.
Is this the “no true Scotsman” thing or….
No, “No True Scotsman” would be if someone had said “Every religion does this.” Then, when someone points out a religion that doesn’t, they reply “Then it’s not a real religion, is it?”
But he said they just haven’t really read the book…that isn’t always the case.
Every grouping that assigns differing values to its own members and those who aren’t does. Just look how worked up people get about stupid stuff like chose of smartphone or sports team. Humans are wired by evolution to fear and disdain members of the out-group. Its only by training and socialization that we overcome it.
Every railgun?
In general, we see ourselves and people close to us as individuals while we tend to view outsiders as homogeneous, it’s all to do with the ‘monkeysphere theory‘
Only the really stupid branches, believe me. To be fair though, almost every time Willis has taken any part on it’s been a gross oversimplification of their gross oversimplifications, so.
I suppose- though as I understand it he tends two write from his own experiences from being raised fundamentalist.
to*
One person’s hyperbole is another person’s reality.
“Your life experience differs from my own therefore you’re a liar!”
I’m really amazed you don’t include ‘Joyce is autobiographical’ in big blinking text on every single strip, even if Joyce doesn’t appear.
Why can’t reality ever match up with my preconceived notions!
Like a world where dragons exist.
Or unicorns…or dragicorns.
No more Spike X Rarity fanfic for you…
I know nothing of your ponies.
But if you know nothing of ponies, how do you know the two characters I named are ponies?
I though one was a dragon? Uh, I mean, who are this Spike and Rarity you speak of?
Personally, I prefer Derpy/Goku. The two beings in all of fiction that fully appreciate a good Muffin Button.
I dunno about this “Rarity” person, but Spike’s a cockney Vampire…
…Wait, did I wander into the wrong slashfic?
Wait, then why do people talk about Spike and Twilight all the time? I mean, Spike was definitely not a sparkly vampire.
I thought Rarity was a friend of Cordelia’s. It’d certainly be fitting.
What vampire ponies?
Ponies! Crap, I thought you were talking about vampires.
We have drag-queens and corn, isn’t that close enough? 😀
Thanks. Now all I can picture is a drag queen with a corn cob glued to his/her forehead. Someone draw this please?
If the horn is made of corn, wouldn’t that make it a cornicorn?
Needs moar butter.
No, because there’s only one which makes it a Unocorn.
You could never get that guy on his last card.
If he’s fathered children, then he’s a popcorn.
No, no… you didn’t listen to Grunkle Stan at all, did you? A cornicorn is a unicorn 100% MADE of corn!
ONE FREE INTERNET TO THIS PERSON!
Or where we have flying cars, self lacing shoes and time machines?
I’m going to make my own world, with blackjack and hookers!
In fact, forget the world!
And screw blackjack. I count and still lose all the time.
I misread that as “horkers”. Maybe I’ve been playing Skyrim a little too much.
I just want a world where I have a work ethic. And, you know, without the massive suffering that’s in the world now and stuff.
Being able to fly would be cool, too.
I don’t recommend a work ethic. Its only effect is to make you feel guilty about not doing getting anything done.
…Pondering whether to make the pun I came up with.
Deciding against it.
Do it.
Many companies these days don’t have work ethics. That’s why they get work ethnics.
I’m so sorry.
Going to a christian college would just delay the inevitable.
And Joe is objectionable to everyone…ish.
Roz certainly didn’t object.
They probably have a lot of objection sex.
…now I’m imagining Phoenix Wright in bed…
Roz would be dressed as Phoenix and Joe would be… Gumshoe?
Edgeworth, obviously.
I once made a girl scream with the use of my mouth and fingers.
This was the first time I met her. I pointed at her and Shouted OBJECTION, and she gave a startled shriek.
This was a few years ago. We are now friends.
Well there are people still teaching their kids like this which means they have spent this long without a bursted bubble unfortunately.
I hate to perpetuate a stereotype, but I went to a public high school right down the street from a christian high school, and let me just say that from my experience it could turn Joyces into Billies with remarkable speed.
Not necessarily. College is where you network, decide on a career, decide where to live after graduation, etc… it’s entirely possible to get tied into a christian community which is large and pervasive enough that you won’t have to look outside it for the rest of you life.
Reality is a bongo and too bad we couldn’t fuck it.
But it fucks us.
And there’s nothing we can do about but to man up and just take it.
Unless you wear a chasity belt.
If life sucks ask her for a blowjob.
Stolen from the sig of a mod of a forum I frequent.
“Life is a bongo with razor sharp teeth… on both ends”.
And thats when you go anal and hope things don’t get crappy!
Life’s a bongo. Make it your bongo.
Fear and Leviticus in Indiana
We can’t stop here. This is atheist country.
I thought this was Don’t F****** Care As Long As You Don’t Cuase Sh** For Everyone Else country?
I was right in the middle of a fucking ark, and somebody was giving booze to these goddamn things. Won’t be long now before they tear us to shreds.
You people voted for Hubert Humphrey! And you killed Jesus!
wow didn’t even have to modify that one
And that kids is what we call character progression
Soooo much faster than for the Walkyverse Joyce, too. Though I guess not getting mindwiped sort of accelerates character progression.
Actually, in my memories it is the MindWipe that started Joyce’s Character Developement in the Walkyverse.
I mean, yes the mindwipe was supposed to prevent character development but it was so effective that it drastically changed her … which still counts as Character Development ! And it paved the road for future personal growths (that all followed traumatic events). …
Seriously, DoA Joyce has it easy. I wouldn’t wish what Walkyverse Joyce had to go throught on my worst ennemy ! (ditto for Sal)
It started it, yes, but it took much longer after that for things to happen. She was unconscious for a very long time, then childlike for a very long time, then etc…
If it makes you feel any better, Joyce. You can still fear Ruth.
Noone’d blame ya.
Pushing through this is hard and takes years to do. Personal experience with lots of nights terrified that I’m going to hell for all eternity to suffer like I’ve never suffered before.
Heh…pushing, hard.
Man I gotta say, I’m glad I wasn’t raised super religiously. I don’t know if I’d be able to handle this sort of paradoxical thought thing. I mean, it’s like a vicious cycle, how do you escape that?
Let me just say in my own experience here in Indianapolis most Christians AREN’T this hardcore or hard headed in their beliefs. I am a Christian and I hate Bible thumpers too.
I know most aren’t hardcore. I misphrased. It wasn’t the religion that worried me, but the philosophy. If I was in that situation specifically, I mean.
You did say ‘SUPER religiously’. You never said that most Christians were like that…
Methinks Doctor Lantern needs to learn to read what people say, and not find personal insults that aren’t there.
I wasn’t personally insulted and I apologize that it seemed that way. I was agreeing with AHR actually in the having an issue with the philosophy. My emphasis on “aren’t” was not to point out a flaw AHR’s argument, but to emphasize my point in my own. I can read just find, thanks. Though I am sorry that what I wrote wasn’t clear enough to avoid consternation.
fine* not find. It does seem my typing and proofreading skills could use some polishing.
I wonder how often a simple comment derails a conversation by simply being only moderately confusing at first glance.
This is the internet. It would be easier to count the times it hasn’t happened.
I wonder how often someone looking for an issue in places that there weren’t any derails a conversation by simply being rude… (This being aimed at Totz of course)
Well hey now, I rephrased and re-explained. No harm done here at all. Misreading is easy to happen with different mindsets.
And that, in a nutshell, is why I’m not a fan of organized religion. And it’s why I’m glad my parents, though religious themselves, let me explore and make my own choices.
But what makes you think that only children raised by devoutly religious parents experience this kind of conflict with their core beliefs? What about “red-diaper” babies who learned about Stalin’s atrocities, despite their parents’ best efforts? Many of them eventually formed the nucleus of the “neo-conservative” movement because they couldn’t square their parents’ utopian Communism with the real-life horrors Uncle Joe perpetrated.
I never really said that? To be honest, as someone above pointed out, the ‘different is evil’ concept is often expressed in pretty much any organized group, to varying degrees.
That said, I specifically mentioned religion because it’s what’s mentioned in this comic and the major internal conflict for Joyce.
Because its the same thing. Evangelicals and Utopian Communists view themselves as ushering a better, more perfect world, and they view anyone who doesn’t live up to their standard as Evil. But there are other religions and ideologies that are neither Utopian or concerned solely with eschatology. Joyce’s reaction comes from being indoctrinated by family, in a loving nurturing environment. But the ideology she was indoctrinated with can’t stand up to any form of questioning or scrutiny (which makes it worthless, IMO) because her parents didn’t teach her anything. They only indoctrinated her. I’d bet good money that Evangelicals raised the way she was never once cracked open an actual Bible, except maybe to select passages from Christian scripture.
By the same token, a “red-diaper baby” is so indoctrinated by his parents’ Utopian worldview he can’t face the fact that Communism is a discredited ideology (and a genocidal one to boot). But that shouldn’t invalidate all forms of ideology; so why should the obvious flaws in Evangelical Christianity somehow invalidate non-Evangelical non-Christianity?
I’m not sure where you got “utopian” stuff from.
leor613:
Troll or crazy conspiracy theorist? Both?
Either way, just ignore them.
Tune in next week for another all new episode of You Just Got Poe’d!
@Somebody: Evangelical Christianity and Communism are both eschatological ideologies (that means they are concerned with the end of the world, by the way). They are also encourage a “with us or against us” mentality. Neither of these comparisons are that far fetched.
Maybe if you understood what Joyce actually believes (and what Willis used to believe) you can understand why the children of both hard-core Evangelicals and dyed-in-the-wool Communists often undergo cognitive dissonance and either walk away from the core beliefs their parents instilled in them or become die hard true believers who ignore all contradictory evidence.
Why throw in a red herring? No one but you mentioned Communism, and it isn’t even a relevant topic; if you wanted it to be relevant, then you should pose it as a separate thought, not as a refutation of a post that was clearly a personal opinion.
While we’re on that subject, there was no mention by AgentKeen of any specific religion that she was against; he or she could have been talking about Islam or Buddhism parents. It was a general statement of dislike for ANY kind of organized religion, which is a sentiment many people share. You attacked her based on an assumption and a position which she did not assert herself.
However, I have an idea for why you brought up communism, particularly Stalinist communism; correct me if I’m wrong, but is it because you think of it as a kind of “atheistic fascism”? I’ve known a few people, Christians particularly, who have attempted to argue this point, but the fact is that Atheism was not the driving force of Communism, nor has it ever been the driving force of anything, because it is not a belief system. It is a statement of disbelief, a negative claim made to counter the positive claim of a deity’s existence; there are no core tenets or dogmas that need be followed, and no threat of divine punishment of any kind. How can one pin accountability to a position which neither denies or purports any?
Moreover, Stalin was raised Catholic, received support from the Russian Orthodox Church, and was worshiped by the Russian masses as a god, so while he may have been secular-minded, he was clearly no atheist.
Bonus: Communism, where religion is concerned at all, wais about not having a state religion, not about enforcing atheism.
Also worth noting that Stalin never got as far as actual Communism, nor have any other countries I’m aware of. Communism PRECLUDES the existence of a dictator, or any form of “representative” government at all: it is a true democracy, run completely by the people. There would be no elections, just as there would be no factory owner; instead the workers own the factory together, make its decisions together, etc.
Throughout recent histor we’ve had a lot of pretenders, but no actual Communist countries. They’d be very hard to set up, and might also take a long time to make decisions since you’d be having mass votes every time a bill came up, etc.
Li you are guilty of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. Lenin and his cohorts set up a system to bring about a Communist system. So did Mao, Kim Il Sung, Tito, Castro and Hoxha. Those systems failed to produce Communist utopias, instead producing brutal regimes that practiced genocide on a scale that almost rivalled Hitler’s. (Hitler gets more points because he killed more people, more efficiently in a shorter period of time.)
The reason I used Communism (or more specifically the Western supporters of Communism) as a counter example, is that their also refuse to acknowledge that reality does not comport with their ideology, leading to a similar form of cognitive dissonance.
ok, I hate to be “that guy” but Hitler killed around 13 million. now, Stalin (whom you forgot to add to your communist list) killed around 20 million, and some say that’s far too low. I know that the Hitler part is sore (seeing as it relates to you) but facts are facts. Hitler is known more because of his industrialization of the killing plus the fact he was the opponent while Russia was an ally so that would have helped to hush it up.
@GPG: I’m aware that by raw numbers, Stalin has the highest body count of the 20th century’s dictators. However he reached that figure slowly, over three decades. Hitler acheived his numbers in a span of twelve years, and most of the killing took place over the last four. Stalin wasn’t an efficient murderer, just a persistent one. Stalin’s murders began while Lenin was technically the leader of the Soviet Union, and persisted up until his death.
That isn’t the Scotsman fallacy and there’s no such thing as “state atheism” either. Hitler was also a Christian (Catholic is still Christian) creationist, and many Nazi officers had a phrase meaning “in God we trust” on their belts.
Either way, nobody murders “in the name of atheism”; that’s just silly.
Uh, yeah, no. What Somebody said.
I’ll add that I never said Communism is awesome, or pretended it was perfect system of government. Just that by the most basic definition of Communism, no country has ever actually enacted it.
From Wikipedia:
“Marxist theory contends that socialism is a transitional stage on the road to communism. Leninism adds to Marxism the notion of a vanguard party to lead the proletarian revolution and to secure all political power after the revolution for the working class, for the development of universal class consciousness and worker participation, in a transitional stage between capitalism and communism.”
Marx, Lenin, and Stalin all envisioned Socialism — here defined as being more or less Communism, but with rulers to enforce it! — as an intervening stage between Communism and Capitalism. Then, shockingly, corruption happens, and those in power fail to ever relinquish it. Animal Farm broke down that process as it happened in the real world pretty well.
(Read the book, though, if you wanna check it out; IIRC, all the American-produced film versions have twisted Orson’s intentions so as to remove his equally anti-Capitalist bent from the text.)
If you want to interpret these failings as proof that Communism is forever fundamentally flawed and will never do anything but bring evil into the world when people try to enact it — go ahead. But don’t accuse me of cognitive dissonance just because I think that a system of government can’t truly be called Communist when it is devoid of one of the system’s chief defining features.
This is, again, NOT the Scotsman fallacy. I’m not saying the Soviet Union wasn’t a Communist nation because it sucked there. It could very easily have been a Communist nation while sucking. It’s just that, in this case, it sucked and was not a Communist nation.
I feel like I’m talking in circles already, before you’ve even responded, so let me try to use an analogy.
Suppose that there was a cake sitting on the table between us. We were told that the cake was chocolate. You prefer vanilla cake, and I prefer chocolate cake. We each had a slice, and the cake was disgusting.
At this point, I say, “This isn’t chocolate cake at all, it’s obviously made of mud,” and you say, “But they told us it was chocolate! You just think it’s not chocolate because it tastes gross!”, possibly because you’ve never had chocolate cake before.
Now I say, “No, it’s not chocolate cake because it wasn’t made with cocoa.”
The lack of cocoa in the cake makes it not chocolate, just as the presence of a dictatorship in Soviet Russia and other countries makes it not a Communist country. (And, to expand on that point, actually the existence of any form of representative government at all. Soviet Russia could have had a duly-elected president, who only ever did awesome things, and it would still NOT have been a Communist country.)
Hopefully my point has now been made.
Bad time to typo a name; obviously I meant OrWELL, not OrSON.
So what you’re saying is that Communism was a red herring?
You ninja boy, have you taken your Ritalin yet? All calmed down? Good.
I hate Communism. I despise it. Because the Communists targeted my people for destruction, just as much as the Nazis did.
Both you and Li are guilty of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. The Soviet Union, People’s Republic of China, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and other eastern bloc countries practiced State Atheism. (North Korea still does.)
As for hoping that the North Koreans will someday perfect the dictatorship of the proletariat and bring forth true democracy, for the sake of the people who live in North Korea I hope Kim Jong Un and his cronies don’t get the chance to keep experimenting.
This is like the McCarthy era paranoia over communism…
Damn you, Willis. This is not the normal screaming outrage I usually feel when I read one of your sadder strips. This is subtly, quietly, and perfectly painful. Really beautiful stuff.
I’m going to laugh my ass off when Joyce finds out how much screwin’ and drugs and shit go on in Christian schools. The stories my mother told from Ursuline Academy (high school, but the point stands)…
My aunt elected to go to a Christan college in the ’60’s to avoid all the screwin’, drinkin’, etc., etc., only to learn many of not most of the students there had been forced to attend that institution because they loved screwin’, drinkin’, etc., etc., much more than Jeeessuuusss. Except to co-opt the name when cussin’, of course.
So, naturally, as soon as they were out from under the parental eye, they proceeded to make the place a sort of New Gomorrah (I have no idea if the Sodom part was one of the etceteras, even if I have Assumptions. I got the tale from my grandmother, and she wasn’t privy to specifics).
I miss Gomorrah.
I’m still trying to figure out what gomorrahy is.
Isn’t that the spreading of STDs?
Nah. I think it’s a big-ass flying turtle. That loves to party.
And now I wish DoA was set in one of those schools
Mythbusters: I reject your reality and substitute my own.
I wish I could do that. Heck, when asked what super powers that I would like to have, I asked for reality warping. I got plans for the new reality and everything.
This particular comic affects me. I was raised much as Joyce was – maybe worse – and I had the same kind of culture shock in college. It’s really painful when everything you were ever taught turns out to be a lie.
Wish I could be at Botcon and / or Comic-con. Living in Tennessee sucks for reasons such as these.
Try living in Malaysia.
Try being Malaya. Everything sucks!
Poor Joyce.
Luckily for me I got this out of the way during High School, moving from a Catholic elementary in another state, but the fact that it’s been framed as a corruption to Joyce just makes the whole process of her breaking out of that indoctrination a bit disturbing to watch, as healthy as it is in reality.
I know Joyce represents the fundamental Christian Right Wing Conservative offspring of America. But I do want to say that most Christian teens are more like Billie: They grew up being told certain things were bad and instead of following what they’re told they are experimenting and finding it out for themselves via experience and will come to their own conclusions. Though I will say there is probably less alcohol abuse and for some less sexual promiscuity than with Billie. That being said Billie is one of my favorites.
Joyce is representing more-or-less who Willis was at that point in his life.
This is tough to read but hey, in fifteen years Joyce will be a well-adjusted person, who has a non-zero chance of drawing cartoons about transformers on the internet. Probably not transformers, though.
Skylanders.
Everyone is using Billie as an example and forgets about Mary.
Well, in this continuity Mary hasn’t done anything (yet) but be a sanctimonious bongo. Billie, on the other hand – what *hasn’t* she done?
Ruth?
Well, since it’s been repeatedly demonstrated that Willis will always cut away the moment explicit sex starts up, it seems reasonable to assume that it works the other way around as well: every time Willis cuts away from a scene, the characters therein promptly start banging each other like there’s no tomorrow. And there’s been a couple of times when those two were left alone…
Everyone is using Billie as an example and forgetting about Sal. She went to a Catholic school, if memory serves, and now she drives a motorcycle and gets ‘tutored’ (or, well, really it seems like she’s the one doing the ‘tutoring’).
I was about to say that I never really witnessed this stuff in christian school when i grew up, but then i remembered that the whole things works differently with Catholic schools where I live, really just public school with a religion class and Uniforms.
Just to preface this, he means in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. It’s been a while since I’v e discussed it, at length so details are probably wrong but catholic school is free here, I think, so it is somewhat the norm. I really don’t know how regular public schools work here.
They’re free in the same sense non-denominational schools are. You decide which school board your taxes support, and send your kids to…well, whichever one you/they want (I went to Catholic school in HS, my brother to public – we both went to Catholic elementary schools). The only difference between Catholic schools and public schools at the elementary level is they’re named for Saints and priests and have religion classes, and at the Secondary level, uniforms are added.
That varies GREATLY by region.
Historical Note: Many people don’t understand why Catholic Schools are publicly funded in much of Canada. It all goes back to the large French-speaking Catholic population of pre-confederation Canada, and how they were guaranteed the right to have their children educated in their own language and religion. A “separate” school system was set up alongside the non-denominational “public” system and people can elect which board to send their taxes to. Interesting point, where I live a great number of the people going to Catholic schools aren’t Catholic, but Muslim. My understanding is that they like the uniforms.
I know this probably isn’t the right response, but that’s kind of adorable.
Thats exactly the same response that I had…
I can feel a recoil coming on. It would be nice if Joyce’s sensibilities and beliefs just exploded under the pressure of the world. I support a Pagan Joyce! Having said that, a lot of Pagans end up as Pagans because of this kind of situation. “Recovering Catholics” is one name for them. I know that Joyce isn’t catholic, but you get my point. I also like that sarah warned her that this was going to happen, that’s she’s a nice kid and she’ll be sad when the world crushes her. Blessed Be, Joyce. Come into the circle!
Isn’t Catholicism just “pagan Christianity”? So many Saints to pray to, each with their own specialization, hehe. I can easily see a transition from one to the other. 😀
Nah, it’s more like “bureaucratic Christianity”. You don’t have a direct line to the CEO, so you have to deal with a bunch of middle managers, and your communication on particular topics have to go through specific departments.
But all of those managers are in the home office, and they don’t respond directly to you; there’s a second, parallel bureaucracy in your local branch office, and the local VP, Mr. Pope, disseminates the communiques from the home office through HIS managerial staff.
Oof. This was me in college.
The first year of college can be difficult for anyone. This is especially true for those who were sheltered from the world and fed fear mongering propaganda. I know people like Joyce. They grew up in a world like hers and once they were away from that, they really had a hard time reckoning so many things. Most of them grew from it and realized that there isn’t just one way. Some really became quite disturbed by it and it really fucked them in the head by going the complete opposite of what they were taught only to feel deep shame by it and become broken. We really do kids a disservice when we brow beat them with dogma!
I hope David treats this sensitively.
Well, what Nena described there is what Willis lived through.
Really? Wow, I never knew that. Where’d you hear it?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/about/
Wow, right in front of my face and I never knew it was there. Thanks for the heads-up!
I really dislike dogma… well… except the Kevin Smith movie… I think it is hilarious.
Also, I love that “Doctor” is part of my name and my avatar, Jason, is wearing a bow-tie. I find this awesome and humorous.
Jason is also British.
And Matt Smith now has Jason’s hairdo.
These coincidences are uncanny!
Starting off the week right.
With a topic guaranteed to attract a fuckton of angry people disagreeing over religion?
Yeah, let’s have a religious pissing contest!
The first one to turn urine into lemonade wins.
Volunteers for taste-testing, please form a line to the right.
Right over there, don’t be shy. There’s more than enough pissaide to go around.
I can turn it into gunpowder, does that count?
Reverse the process? That would take an invasive device.
Unless you are into extreme tentacle hentai, that would be a bad idea.
I am inexplicably intrigued.
You are now unsure whether my gravatar had that expression before this comment.
Science gets a head start!
The best part of waking up is religious furor in your cup!
Yep, got to watch out for them Secular Humanists, or at least that’s what we were warned about in the Southern Baptist Sunday School back in the time when Dinosaur Ruled (You know, Zeppelin, Sabbath, that sort guitar playing. Not that I was allowed to listen to any of it.) Because if you don’t, they’ll make you One of Them before you know it.
Funny thing is, this turned out to be true.
This would be a cool story if it weren’t true both ways.
I asked our minister when I was 13, how God sent Cain into the land of Nod to find a wife when Adam and Eve and Cain and Able the only people in the world?
He told me to have faith and not to worry as these were religious questions for scholars. I would understand in time.
I went home and read the Bible cover to cover. Then I decided that A minister that can’t answer questions simply is not a good representative. Jesus said religion of his Father for everyone, not just scholars. Then I decided the Bible was a great book of rules and myths.
I have not believed since. Organized religion is a waste in my opinion but each person has the right to believe as they wish. I will not naysay anyone.
Meanwhile, I’m a fairly satisfied Wiccan. (and yes it is a recognized religion as of 1957 in the US. Isn’t that nice, we are the original Old Religion.) But hey, better late than never. Our warriors can even now come home from war and be buried under the pagan sigal in the military cemetaries. Progress of sorts. Big world people, there is room for us all.
Goddess Bless
“Isn’t that nice, we are the original Old Religion.”
…er… no.
Pagan beliefs did exist before Christianity. However, the Greek pantheon likely predates any other belief that we know about. Wicca is based on many older beliefs, so it still counts as older.
Being “based on” older beliefs, in the pieced-together, modernizing way Wicca is, does not make it count as older, any more than the primordial themes of death, resurrection, and redemption central to Christianity makes it so ancient. There are people who follow those older traditions by better avenues.
“Please, internet. Give me validation.”
A “great” book. Heh. Good joke. So many plot holes and nonsensical passages, 4 different continuities for Jesus; I enjoyed Revelation but the rest was just unbearably boring.
I believe “great”, in this sense, means large, or lengthy.
I’m glad I’m a muslim, not as many plot-holes.
I have always preferred preachers who are also teachers. If they can get me to understand a principle or teaching than it will mean more to my life and won’t be easily blown away when someone else asks questions I’ve never gotten answers to!
My 90 year old mother tried to reconcile this. Her idea was the the evolutionists might be right in as far as there were evolved apes that were biologically compatible with humans that came from Adam. She still didn’t like the idea of being related to an ape though, so she went on to asume that all Noah’s family happened to have all of their ancestry trace back to Adam. So many holes, but at least she was trying instead of just ignoring the science.
I’ve always wondered, why is the inside of Joyce’s mouth always white? Is she filled with the divine holy spirit?
I believe it’s what’s known as a “toothy mouth”, like she shows a lot of teeth when her mouth moves.
“Mr. Willis, Mr. Willis! Why is the inside of Joyce’s mouth always white?”
“Why, that’s because Joyce, like any good Christian girl, uses Brilliantine! The blessed toothpaste that takes a little bit of the lord’s own light and uses it to bleach your teeth to the point of glowing radiance. Try some today!”
(Dorothy also has an always-white mouth, actually. Must be using Ateethist.)
You just lost your pun-making license.
C’mon. Hand it over. You’ll get it back in a year with good behavior.
But–but officer, my record is clean! [holds up Mister Pop]
Two answers for why there’s always something white inside Joyce’s mouth, and none of them mentioning sailors? In honor of this moment, I shall refrain from faceplanting the gutter. *saintly*
It’s not. She had teeth just yesterday.
I know it’s not related to today’s strip but the haze in my country isthick enough that I’m half expecting to fight monsters based on my psyche.
Regarding the ALT text: I can understand writing Ruth to be depressing, but Joyce? It’s sad where she is coming from, but it’s not like she is staying there. She could close her eyes and lock down anytime. But she is struggling to build a coherent picture integrating new information, starting from a basis of persuasions she adjusts according to incoming information.
That’s the actual process of science. Others have been giving a basis of persuasions much more consistent with modern world views and take that as gospel. That’s modern, but not enlightened.
“I’ve been able to look far because I’ve grown” is more precious than “I’ve been able to look far because I’ve been dumped on the shoulders of giants and have not slipped off completely yet”.
The problem is that her first instinct is to run away from truths rather than to face them. She wanted to drop the entire Ryan incident, is trying desperately to ignore Ethan’s sexuality issues because she thinks he’s perfect for her, and now this. And in time she’ll realize she can’t go back to the way things were, knowing what she knows now about the world.
It’s possibly a little depressing writing someone who’s so paradoxically stuck between moving on and clinging onto the safe past, and Willis has said Joyce is autobiographical.
Willis tried to date a dude, then was surpised when he turned out to be gay? 😉
No, but I have dated a lesbian.
Does this mean Joyce will date Robin or Leslie?
I quite often find Joyce depressing because… all this painful growth she’s going through? I’ve seen her go through it before. I’ve seen the woman she has the potential to grow up into, who is good and wise and strong. And, having seen that, seeing her reset back to where she started is really sad, and knowing that she’s going to have to go through those growing pains again makes me feel for her.
Though to be fair, this Joyce isn’t nearly as stunted and broken as Roomies! Joyce was, and I’m guessing that her growing process in this universe is not going to involve watching her friends and loved ones be brutally killed while she fails to protect them.
And I’m only sympathizing with Joyce from an objective outsider’s point of view. Willis has been where she is himself.
Poor Mr. Willis. Maybe you oughta write some Dina comics for a while or something. Do a story about amazi-girl finding a kitten and taking care of it or something. Just to get back on your feet.
David drew this strip a month or two ago.
I think it’s good advice regardless.
Drawing Dina is always good advice.
I really appreciate how you are writing Joyce. I have been amazed how closely her life mirrored my own life about 10 years ago. Keep going! This has been useful in helping my deeply religious family actually understand where I have come from, where I am going, and how I got there.
Now you know, Joyce ^^
And knowing is half the battle.
and the rest is firepower and lots of explosions.
Information is ammunition …… Now I’m picturing roadblock firing 5 1/4 floppies at cobra commandos. >_<
It would be wonderful if real life worked like this–if you could just subject fundies to a dose of reality and have them realize that their indoctrination has all been bullshit. Sadly, that’s not how it usually goes. The fundies group together and deny the reality bombarding them. Still, it’s a lovely dream.
I really hope that’s all it’s going to take with Joyce to truly expand her worldview, but she’s still in a bit of a freak-out mode, which could go either way still.
Wow. Been there and done that, Joyce. So have some of my family and some of my friends. It could even lead to a greater faith in God now that she’s learning how His world really works…
I hate to tell you Joyce, but Christan Colleges can be far worse then public schools. A bunch of pent up, confused, suddenly independent kids. It’s a rather explosive combination.
Today’s strip *so* captures my experience of having been an evangelical. I appreciate that Willis has that background in his past so he can accurately capture the mindset and voice.
I like to think that Walky saw the dramas coming and just ran off.
Oh no wait, there’s his sleeve.
Run Walky! You’re not good at emotional support.
Oh man, I almost teared up at this. Your writing (and art) is AMAZING.
That last panel is much better if you move Dotty about 25px to the right.
Hello, I’m the main character, and I know exactly how I feel.
I’ve always wondered why she didn’t go to a Christian college, her parents obviously have the money and she seems completely miserable here. That has bugged me since roomies, glad to see you addressing it
Both her parents went to IU: 9/22/10 Dumbing of Age. And while her parents help her move in, they’re both wearing IU shirts. That strip also has a nice bit with Joyce’s mom saying “Don’t let anyone change you, okay?”
I’m 99% sure Becky says that, not Carol.
Make that 100%.
How dare you question Megatron’s datatracks?! You’ll be lucky if he just blasts you to atoms, rather than sending you to the Smelting Pit!
Not that’s ever know that since I failed to put anything in that second “a” tag.
Now I know why Elvis shot his computer.
Joyce just seems one of those sweat girls who shouldn’t feel the harshness of the real world
Sweat girls? I didn’t know she worked out.
Just look at those abs.
Ummm, hate to break it to you, but those are her breasts.
As someone who went from a fundie to nonreligious, I’m kind of surprised that this experience is what everyone is identifying with. Mine was nothing like that and I still have a great respect for people with faith.
There’s a nice point here that I don’t think that anyone’s commented on yet: a lot of these belief systems have, as one of their tenets, that anyone who isn’t a believer yet [i]seems[/i] like a reasonable, decent person is, in fact, trying to weaken your faith and tempt you to _____lessness. (It’s all a lie, of course, like the vampire trying to trick you into inviting them in so they can devour and/or turn you.)
It’s such a neat and effective bit of inoculating people from even listening to or entertaining points of view that might “infect” them that I sometimes wonder how much is due to deliberate, intelligent design (by people actively setting out, with varying degrees of awareness and/or cynicism, to create such) and how much is simply due to the natural process of memetic evolution, whose pressures and adaptions are often very similar to the biological kind.
Okay, have to comment on this one. Great sentiment. While I wasn’t exactly Homophobic in high school, going to a small liberal arts college and meeting really cool people who just happened to be attracted to the same gender really opened my eyes. Earlham was a good place to learn that.
This sort of reaction is why I’m personally against homeschooling. Though I can (in an academic sense since I’m not a parent yet) understand the reasoning behind wanting to homeschool, it seems to me that it would be better in the long run for children to interact with a variety of people who behave in a variety of ways while they’re still at home and more inclined to seek guidance from their parents if they have questions, doubts, fears, etc. This way they avoid having such a huge system shock when they’re suddenly interacting with people who may feel, think, and behave very differently from what they’re used to and what they were taught.
Also, speaking for myself and my own understanding of my particular denomination of Christianity (Southern Baptist), closing ranks and only hanging out with other Christians is a bad idea on the basis that you’ll never reach others and spread your message if you never go out into the larger world. However, being out in the world with all of its difficulties and temptations is a draining experience – which is why we attend church and worship and have fellowship with our fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Think of it as a booster, or a pick-me-up, before you start a new week on Monday morning.
And finally, it’s not a bad thing to have questions as a Christian. Questioning and delving further into study of one’s faith is one of the ways in which people may grow stronger and more mature in their faith.
There are a few problems with homeschooling. Aside from the lack of interaction with the wider world (seriously, it’s like living in a void. No one should have to experience that as a child), there’s also the problem of a lack of deadline. Maybe it’s different with other homeschooling programs, but mine lacked any deadline except all work due before the start of the next year. As a result, I unintentionally spaced my work such that I had no school breaks.
My objection to homeschooling is that you are taking the educating out of the hands of trained professionals and leaving it to the parents. Now I know there are terrible teachers, but there are also great ones, and all have at least been trained in how to be teachers.
“Finding allegedly objectionable people to be perfectly unobjectionable is what everyone spent eighteen years teaching me to fear.”
Best line of the strip to date.
“Where awful people are a distant, ignorable concern”.
I write this from the future… but hoo, boy, is she going to hate being wrong about that.
(I know this is years after everyone else stopped commenting, but whatever, I’m reading this comic for the first time and I just need to get this off my chest.)
I staunchly disagree with Joyce’s notion of going to a Christian college to avoid problems. I’m a Christian who attends a secular college, and I must say that going to it has only strengthened my faith in God. It’s precisely because I’ve come across adversity and people with viewpoints wholly different from my own that I have become a better Christian. It forced me to critically analyze my beliefs. Some of what I believed I discarded, and some others were strengthened.
“Oh no! Everything was so easy when everybody else agreed with my beliefs!”