while i agree with both you and ogre, i want to see these two happy, if only because i actually like ruth, and to make up for original ruth’s accident. that was sad
I never said I didn’t want them together. I said that she deserves the rejection. I want to see her get past whatever it was that made her act the way she did and earn Billie’s love. Same with Billie and her self-image. Though if they improve and they don’t wind up together I’d be just as happy.
Not for me, but maybe it just hits a little too close to home. (Ruth reminds me of an ex of mine :p) But seriously, childhood trauma is not an excuse to treat someone you like like crap.
Even if she had traumatic experiences in her youth she’s in college/university now and just one stepping stone jump to become “responsible adult.” But she still abuse her power as an RA like an elementary school bully and it will not help her when she jump into work environment.
It’s easy to say from the outside, but if you’re feeling depressed and alone, sometimes it’s not easy to admit you need help – and even harder to go through with getting help, even if you can admit you need it.
Heck, I’m 37 and I’m not old enough to seek help. I am old enough to recognize when I’m behaving terribly and irrationally and to stop and try to figure out what the heck I’m doing, and she is too, though.
(Not that I *do* stop and think. But I’m old enough to.)
I know that myself. I know I need help. It’s the going through with getting it that I have trouble with. That and I have no idea where to start, or how to get past that voice that tells me I’d be wasting my time and the time of anyone trying to help me.
Irrespective of the conversation, Sound Defense, but I didn’t quite pay attention to your Gravatar at first, thought it was a picture of Alan Rickman as Severus Snape and your post was… very much functionally different in my head as a result.
It helps that I’ve been quite the fan of Rickman since he was a fresh-faced Sheriff of Nottingham threatening to cut out hearts with spoons, and thus have quite a functional mental library of lines to patch thoughts together with.
Reconciliation requires that all parties feelings are respected. The “you shut up cause your in the wrong” attitude causes more anti-social behavior because the offender resents the system.
Conflict resolution is moving forward through greater understanding and sanctioning undesirable behavior. If I was any kind of authority at that university I would fire ruth as an RA, let her continue iliving in another residence building IF she was repentant, and assure Billie that ruth would not be allowed to have any power over her again. I would direct Ruth to student counseling and ask Billie if she would give Ruth the chance to explain/appologize.
Ruth being sad by herself, or sad and bitter by herself off campus, does not help correct her behavior in the future. All it does is piss her off and leave her with the choice of how to work that out. Furthermore, leaving ruth as a psycho weirdo threat in Billies mind makes the incident seem worse than it really is. Allowing her to see Ruth penitent and vulnerable counters the image of her as powerful and helps diffuse future confrontations.
Actually Malaya and Ruth have had some character defining good moments, which everyone forgets after a few weeks and focuses only on the bad.
They don’t mean to be dicks… they’re just very good at doing it accidentally.
I disagree. I think that both Malaya and Ruth spend a good part of their time actively trying to be dicks. You don’t denigrate geeks, threaten femurs, or bodily attack people by accident.
I do think that they are capable of some small modicum of goodness, though, and more than that in the future, but they both have a lot of growing up to do.
Malaya doesn’t do it to be a dick, she just can’t see anything from other people’s points of view. I mean when she ‘dated’ Leslie she genuinely thought she liked her, but when she realised she didn’t she couldn’t think of how she might seem from Leslie’s PoV.
As for Ruth… she just has a huge control complex (probably something to do with unknown phone person) and is determined to not let anyone be able to get any control over her.
I feel bad for her, but I am again relieved to see her experiencing remorse and understanding that she fucked things up. That she might take this as a wake-up call for dealing with her problems is, I think, the best we could hope for.
Actually, I’d say that Joe’s smarmy casual sex is the most mature thing in this comic relationship-wise. It’s pretty sad when the most mature relationship isn’t even a stable one, but one-night stands.
Clark Kenting aside, Danny has fallen for a girl largely because she saved him from getting his ass kicked once. Amber is pursuing a dude who has already rejected her once to her face. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
… Dorothy is trying to have an adult relationship with, for all intents and purposes, a child (who is clinging to childhood as hard as he can, despite these weird ‘hormones’ that make him feel funny around girls).
“Stupid. It was so stupid of me to beat up the object of my affections for two weeks. Mother always told me that four weeks was the MINIMUM, but did I listen?!”
we now need a photoshop of the last panel wordswitching ‘idiot’ for ‘baka’.
… in fact, let’s have this entire two-word strip translated into japanese. Also turned into yonkoma.
Oh who are the people in your neighborhood?
In your neighborhood? In your neighborhood?
Say, who are the people in your neighborhood?
The people that you meet each day
People won’t be people when they hear this sound
That’s been glowing in the dark at the edge of town
People won’t be people, no
The people won’t be people when they hear this sound
Won’t you show me what begins at the edge of town
He’s Shaun the sheep – (He’s Shaun the sheep) He’s Shaun the sheep – (He’s Shaun the sheep)
He even mucks about with those who cannot bleat – (Cannot bleat)
Keep it in mind
He’s one of a kind
Oh…..
Life’s a treat with Shaun the Sheep
I dunno about you people, but I feel like commenting on the comic. Ahem.
I wish that I could turn back time
’cause now the guilt is all mine
can’t live without the trust from those you love
I know we can’t forget the past
you can’t forget love and pride
because of that, it’s killin’ me inside
It all returns to nothing, it all comes
tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down
It all returns to nothing, I just keep
letting me down, letting me down, letting me down
Help me I broke apart my insides,
Help me I’ve got no soul to sell
Help me the only thing that works for me,
Help me get away from myself
I want to fuck you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I want to fuck you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to god
In response to Shaun the Sheep: Way down in the firey lake
Lucifer had a lot at stake
But he wanted some lamb chops instead
And Sherri Lewis wasn’t dead (which dates the song)
So he found some virgin wool
Grabbed its soul and begin to pull
But who would have thought
That the lamb that he caught
Would rebel and conquer and rule
zankoku na tenshi no you ni
Shounen yo shinwa ni nare
aoi kaze ga ima
mune no DOA wo tataite mo
watashi dake wo tada mitsumete
hohoen deru anata
sotto fureru mono
motomeru koto ni muchuu de
unmei sae mada shiranai
itaike na hitomi
dakedo itsu ka kizuku deshou
sono senka ni wa
haruka mirai mezasu tame no
hane ga aru koto
* zankoku na tenshi no TEEZE
mado hen kara yakate tobi tatsu
hoto bashiru atsui PATOSU de
omoide o uragiru nara
kono sora wo daite kagayaku
shounen yo shinwa ni nare
zutto nemutteru
watashi no ai no yurikago
anata dake ga yume no SHISHA ni
yobareru asa kakuru
hosoi kubisuji o
tsuki akari ga utsu shiteru
sekai CHUU no toki o tomete
tojiru kometai kedo
moshimo futari aeta koto ni
imi ga aru nara
watashi wa sou jiyuu o shiru
tame no BAIBURU
zankoku na tenshi no TEEZE
kanashimi ga soshite hajimaru
dakishimeta inochi no ka tachi
sono yume ni mazamameta toki
dare yori mo hikari o hanatsu
shounen yo shinwa ni nare
hito wa ai wo tsumugi nagara
rekishi o tsukuru
megami nante narenai mama
watashi wa ikiru
But then I saw her face!
Now I’m a believer!
Not a trace, of doubt in my mind!
I’m in love. Oooooh, I’m a believer, I couldn’t leave her, even if I tried.
With cat-like tread,
Upon our prey we steal;
In silence dread,
Our cautious way we feel.
No sound at all!
We never speak a word;
A fly’s foot-fall
Would be distinctly heard–
Since she’s been gone I want no one to talk to me.
It’s not the same, but I’m to blame, it’s plain to see.
So go away, leave me alone, don’t bother me.
I can’t believe that she would leave me on my own.
It’s just not right when every night I’m all alone.
I’ve got no time for you right now, don’t bother me.
I’ve lost my battle before it starts,
My first breath wasn’t done,
My spirit is sunken deep
Into the ground.
Why am I alone?
I can hear my heartbeat..
…silence is all around.
-To a heartbroken sinner like the rest of us
(Mordred’s Song by Blind Guardian)
Wrong. It needs to be Dina. And it needs to be without any warning. And when Ruth asks why, she’ll say ‘You looked like you needed it.’ 10 points to the person who gets it.
That said, 1. we might be giving DOA!Dina too much credit, and 2. we’ve seen WV!Ruth and WV!Dina interact, if only briefly. They’re…not overly fond of each other.
A possibility: several days from now, after zero communication between Billie and Ruth, Billie notices her Dragons uniform has once again gone missing. She causes a distraction to get Ruth out of her room and sneaks in, and finds the missing uniform. The “N” has been shoddily sewn back on, and the “S” is half-done. A nearby napkin is dotted with blood from pinpricks from a sewing needle.
Stupid for kissing her, or stupid for having been a bongo to her beforehand, that is the question, whether tis nobler… Um… I forget where I was going with that.
And by a screw to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural stupids
That Ruth is heir to. ‘Tis a rockin’ body,
Devoutly to be tapped. To bang, to screw;
To screw: perchance to strip. Ay, there’s the rub…
I wouldn’t say Billie has ever displayed low self respect. She may in fact have a bit too much of an ego with all her “I’m a cheerleader!” stuff.
The fact that she makes poor decisions isn’t evidence of low self respect. And by poor decisions I of course mean underage drinking – not, say, nearly sleeping with Danny or Joe – we have no evidence of poor decision making there, although if she is not on birth control and doesn’t use condoms, then that would be another risky behavior on her part and not at all unsurprising – If she was being reckless about the risks of sexual activity, that, too, would be perhaps poor decision making, but not because women who have casual sex necessarily have no self-respect.
Personally I think Billie needs more break the ego moments. Maybe Ruth, too.
I’m entirely in favor of women having casual sex, preferably with me, but…
In all seriousness, my take on it is that Billie is looking for someone to validate her. She’s gone from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in a very large pond, and she’s not coping well with it. She’s clinging to the cheerleader identity because her sense of self-worth is shattered, and “I’m a cheerleader, dammit!” is all she’s got to reassure herself that she’s worthwhile… and it doesn’t mean anything anymore. Maybe being a cheerleader is a status point at IU (I’m not familiar with the campus culture, so I can’t say), but having been a cheerleader back at some podunk high school sure isn’t.
And, seriously, I don’t have anything against casual sex. I’m not trying to slut-shame Billie. But she didn’t throw herself at Danny because she because she wanted some orgasms and thought he looked like just the dork to give them to her, she threw herself at Danny because he propped up her shaky sense of self-worth by telling her that she was hot enough to be a cheerleader.
Oh yeah and he rejected her. And Joe, who’ll sleep with anything with boobs, rejected her. And Walky, stupid obnoxious Walky, has a hot girlfriend somehow. And people, including but not limited to Ruth, keep calling her fat and nerdy and so on. And she’s been thrown across a room.
She’s been insulted, dismissed, disregarded, and/or physically and emotionally abused by… well, practically everyone. She desperately wants a friend, desperately enough that she’s willing to open herself up to Ruth on the shaky hope that some of Ruth’s inconsistent behaviour is an extended hand of friendship, and despite the abusive behaviour that it’s been mixed with – see her plea immediately before Ruth elbowed her in the chest, pinned her to a wall, and planted a kiss on her. I feel pretty safe in guessing that the reason that Billie wants a friend that badly is not because she feels confident and secure in herself.
And Ruth? Well, we haven’t seen nearly as much of what makes Ruth tick as we have Billie, but I’m thinking Ruth’s pretty broken already, too, and trying to pull herself up by pushing Billie down.
(Pardon if any of this seems incoherent… these comment boxes are not the best for essay-writing at the best of times, and they go wonky on this browser when the comments get nested, and there’s no preview or edit functions.)
I totally agreed with you untill that 2nd last paragraph, Ruth clearly isn’t trying to push Billie down… I mean look at the page you’re commenting on!
She’s clearly got problems and likes Billie, she’s just dealing with everything terribly.
Well, I don’t think that’s how Ruth thinks about it. And, like I said, we haven’t seen so much about what’s going on inside Ruth’s head. But if I had to wildly speculate based on flimsy evidence – and that’s what I’m paid to do, right? – I’d guess that Ruth’s experience has not taught her how to have a relationship between equals. She likes Billie, and she’s dealing with it terribly, because the only way she knows to run a relationship puts one of them in charge, and the other subordinate. And she doesn’t want to be the subordinate. (I’m not sure what her relationship with Mysterious Phone Person is, but… I don’t think she’s in charge of that one.) And so all of her interactions with Billie, from throwing her across the room to handling her little elevator problem to slamming her up against a wall and kissing her, have been oriented towards establishing that Ruth is the one in charge here.
Which doesn’t mean that she doesn’t care about Billie, or can’t be hurt by Billie’s rejection, just that she has an emotional need to firmly establish herself on the top of the hierarchy.
(Wait, what, I’m not getting paid by the word for this?
I definately agree with most of this. Ruth obviously has a pathological need for control, but I don’t think she’s a bad person. Actually, with just these 2 strips plus the one where they drink beer in Billie’s room, I have started to like Ruth much more as a character. She was a pretty flat character otherwise. Although I guess her fleshing-out started with the mystery phone call/ drunken aftermath.
More break the ego moments? Her College experience so far as being a conga-line of ego-breaking moments.
She also doesn’t deserve to be broken in anyway. She’s not a villain.
And underage drinking and sleeping around? What are you, a Victorian? Ain’t nothing wrong with that save for the negative effects it has, which is nothing so far.
To be fair, underage drinking can easily be a poor decision if, say, you’re doing it so publicly that the college has it noted in your file before you even arrive. I mean, it still is a crime, isn’t it?
Stupid for kissingbher, or stupid for having been a bongo to her beforehand, that is the question, whether tis nobler… Um… I forget where I was going with that.
Man, you guys are hard on Ruth. Her life is just continuously shit upon. I really like her as a character and I’m hoping everything works out for her in the end (or at least turns out better for her than in Roomies).
Yes, Ruth, stupid. Really, really goddamn stupid. At least you’re aware of it.
I’m trying not to stray into “hating fictional character for making mistakes” land, because that way lies madness. Clearly Ruth’s flaws here are intentional.
But I’ve got no sympathy here at all. What Ruth did went beyond playground bullying. Physical assault, theft and destruction of property, outright blackmailing…Billie’s not exactly a paragon of virtue, but the worst she’s done has been in retaliation.
Now, I’m sure at some point Willis will show us why, in Ruth’s fractured mind, following that up with sexual assault (mild and well-intentioned though it may’ve been) is okay, and perhaps then I’ll soften towards her, but at the moment, all I can really feel is happiness that this resolved the way it did.
Yeah, I have to agree. I like tsundere characters but there’s a clear line between acting all tsundere and acting all rude (with added physical violence and blackmail).
Ruth stepping out of the boundaries too many time and she realized that it doesn’t work a little bit too late.
I agree. Though I don’t get the appeal of the tsundere characters, they are too easy to read and most of the time, they come off as bongoes who likes to make life tough for their targets. I prefer characters who are honest about their feelings.
Tsundere’s has its own types. Some tsunderes are simply women in denial when she liking someone. Some will try to act high and mighty. Some will act condescending. But in the end they still show some affections and sometimes act normal with the guy/girl she like.
Ruth…. well, she’s ruder than most tsunderes on anime I saw. The exception is probably that girl from Zero no Tsukaima. But I have this feeling that the her love interest is pretty masochist too.
You don’t hate fictional characters? What are you doing in a comments thread? 😉
I like to think of us as all having some form of reverse schizophrenia. Instead of arguing with the voices in our heads, we argue with the various voices in Willis’s head. We literally side with some figments of his imagination against others.
Putting it that way, this whole process is a little disturbing. But I’m sure it’s somehow all Malaya’s fault. 😀
I read your comment (especially the first sentence) with the voice of Head Alien speaking directly at Ruth, and it’s perfect. Exactly the kind of psycholodgical torture that HA enjoys.
The worst/best part ? everything you said is true.
But, I love well written flawed characters! One of the reasons why fiction is so great is that you can relate to and sympathize with characters who commit acts that in real life should be condemned; in fiction there are no real people getting hurt.
I think it’s great to see this first from Ruth’s point of view.
I love well-written flawed characters too, but my like of how this storyline is written is divorced from my ability to really sympathize with Ruth here.
I also think it’s worth pointing out that Billie’s been pretty hostile to Ruth from the beginning. She picked the fight at the floor meeting, remember? Thing have just gone downhill from there. So far, Ruth’s been the only one to make any effort to patch things up.
Ruth was out of line with the bullying, but Billie is far from a helpless victim in this relationship.
Billie had one moment of bravado, and then she was so firmly in the ‘helpless victim’ category that one feels she’s lucky to have survived. At any point she was in a sort-of relationship (as opposed to just being in the same room), she has been the victim.
I agree that Billie has been antagonized by Ruth more than the reverse, but all I’m saying is that Billie picked a fight and started this whole thing in the first place. I think labeling her as a ‘helpless victim’ is exaggerating things at least a little.
Also, we shouldn’t forget that Billie broke into Ruth’s room and invaded her privacy during a very vulnerable moment. Honestly? I think that is just as serious an offense as this whole episode.
The sad part is, Billie pretty much ruined any chance of a relationship by running off. Ruth was already very cautious about showing affection to Billie, and when she did, it bit her in the ass and now she will probably go back to the way she was, or go even worse.
I may not agree with some of what Ruth has done, but this is pretty sad. Oh well, the ship has sank and I’m loosing interest. Toodles
You blame Billie for this? even after she’s being abused and bullied by Ruth over and over again? Billie is not the kind of woman who think that abuse = love. It’s just not right. Relationship need to be build with trust and tolerance for each other.
Not really. All it would take is just one of them to be an adult and tell the other how they feel about things, instead of playing middle school guessing games about each other’s level of interest. If Ruth approached Billie and explained to her: “i was in a bad place, really unsure, but i really like you, etc etc flattery, sorry for the way i acted” I think Billie would at least be receptive to hearing her out. Now, if Billie approaches Ruth and says: ” Sorry, I was really surprised, especially after how you treated me. I’m not some high school kid anymore who wants mixed signals, I want a real relationship based on respect” then maybe that would help Ruth to break through some previously established bad social habits. Losing out on something you want because of the way you treat people, or the threat of losing it, is really the only way anyone changes those patterns of behavior.
If this plays out like it usually has for me, she will at some point rouse herself enough to take off the shoes and put the glasses (hopefully still unbroken) away. This may come after she’s already drifted off once as she is, and then woken because that’s not a very comfortable way to sleep.
Ruth’s actions aren’t very surprising. She seems to be extremely lonely, yet the only way she’s familiar with people dealing with each other is through intimidation and abuse, so that’s what she does. When she does try to reach out to someone, she doesn’t know how other than huge gestures that are completely at odds with her public persona – and then she immediately goes back to being abusive in order to keep from being vulnerable. Billie did the right thing by rejecting advances from an inconsistent, hurtful person who undoubtedly would have caused her far more pain if they had gotten close. I hope that Ruth gets help, sees a therapist, and gradually learns to relate to others in a healthy manner.
Given Billie’s personality I honestly doubt it’s anything that deep. Probably just a kneejerk, ‘Oh crap I’m being kissed what do I do? Oh wait, I’m being kissed by a girl! I don’t think I’m into girls!’ Doubtless she will go analyze it now and we’ll figure out if she really is into girls at all. If she’s smart, which Billie isn’t, she’d come to the conclusion that it’s unhealthy like you said, regardless of if she’s into girls.
Even leaving aside alternate-universe inside knowledge (with Ruth, no less!), I’m pretty sure Billie is into girls. (See: trying to put the mack on Amazi-GirlSal. I think I’ve seen other indications, too.)
Whether she knows it when she’s sober, I’m not so sure yet. I’m honestly kind of hoping that it’s sort of a, “Yeah, I’m bi. So?” thing. There are plenty enough things wrong with this relationship that sexual identity confusion doesn’t need to enter into it.
It’s completely obvious in hindsight that Billie rejected her, given all the abuse she gave her since now. But I was still expecting Billie to reciprocate and jump into a super-lovey relationship that would ‘fix’ Ruth’s abusiveness etc. because that’s how you solve domestic violence, RIGHT? /sarcasm
And it’s probably because of my immediate “Yay, lesbians!” reaction.
Both of them need help, but Ruth needs it worse. Hitting people to get their attention is a trait people usually grow out of before starting school. Her backstory will likely have her growing up in an abusive household, or orphanage where she never learned affection.
Yup, for sure something wrong here, sitting around anylizing fictional characters…but damn its fun.
We’ve spent the last 5 days in the comments section explaining how and why “Hatefuck is not cool” and “Abusive relationships are definitely not cool” (this may even be why Willis’s plan when writing this storyline), yet you decide to ship the most unhealthy relationship Ever ?
… not that Mike*Ruth wouldn’t be insanely Hot but…
damnit, now I’m (almost) shipping it too !
Yes, Billie isn’t “butthurt” about how her interactions with Ruth have been going, which is why she just confronted Ruth about her scary-erratic behavior, demonstrates palpable fear of her on multiple occasions, and tried to expose her in an IDS article. Naturally.
Also, Billie initiated assault in response to verbal abuse–and in fact the first time she attacked Ruth it was because Ruth taunted her into doing so.
No, she threatened Ruth, Ruth said bring it, Billie brought it, she lost. When she hit Ruth in the face the second time she did so with good reason but she still initiated and Ruth didn’t strike back.
She confronted Ruth not because she was upset that Ruth was always mean to her but because she was inconsistently mean and nice. When Ruth came to her in her room they got along fine and Billie showed concern for her. You don’t show concern for people you have only negative feelings towards.
I totally agree. I feel like all the people shouting “ABUSE, ABUSE !!” really have no idea what they are talking about. They all sound like walking Public Service Announcements. I’ve seen worse teasing and antagonizing in any frat I’ve ever been to daily. Ruth and Billie’s physical altercations have all been mutual, not one-sided abuse. Has Ruth been emotionally manipulative? Sure. But there are plenty of assholes who abuse a position of power: bosses, professors, etc. That doesn’t make it okay, but some of the reader reactions are crazy over-the-top. I think a lot of people are viewing this through the lens of their alternate universe history.
Even tough I knew this was how it was going to out, I still feel really bad for Ruth. I know how it is to take a chance and get screwed over by it. I’ve learned since, but good job portraying that fearlessness that comes with infatuation.
I don’t feel sad for Rith, but not because she deserves something bad to happen to her or something. It’s because this is where she needs to be now, if she wants to ever have a chance with Billie. She has to stop attempting to dominate; a relationship between them can only work if they become equals.
Of course, Ruth could screw it up in an instant if she returns to her old habits. If she does that, then I’ll feel sad for her.
I’m kind of like “meh” on the whole “Ruth deserves it!” spree.
She has;
I mean the only reason Ruth was mean to Billy at the start seemed to be because Billy couldn’t obey simple rules and had to try to go all rebel without a cause. She seems like she genuinely looks out for the best interest of everyone on the floor as the RA (Albeit in a slightly verbally abusive / spunky manner).
I’d say she isn’t a bad girl, just misguided.
Not at all. If you don’t show up for a meeting when you’re supposed to at my office, you’ll be lucky if a crazy redhead physically drags you to the room.
Rules are rules, break them and you can’t complain about any consequences, or about the person who has to dish the consequences out. That’s just fair.
Ruth, upstanding moral guardian, enforcing the rules.
Well, except for that time that she robbed Billie. Or that time she gave Billie beer. Or all those times that she emotionally abused Billie. Or that one time, where she physically, then sexually assaulted Billie.
Yup, Ruth is one by-the-book RA and a perfect example of why one should always follow the rules, no matter how brutally and arbitrarily enforced they are.
buzzkill: so a girl leaves a club, heading for her car……………all of a sudden someone from around a corner GRABS HER FROM BEHIND!!! While being groped, our lady screams, kicks, and is able to escape from her attacker. Our attacker is left alone, his feelings crushed. He goes home…………..sad that he did not “get the girl”, and calling himself “STUPID” the whole time. He’s even got a sad face 🙁
I read some of these comments and I think about what that girl in Stuebensville (sp?) has gone thru and wonder how many girls keep their mouths shut about stuff like this just cause of the “culture”.
Yeah, it’s a comic – yeah, it’s not serious, yeah the characters have “alt. history” – but still…………..
in this scenarion, a freshman told her RA she was emotionally traumatized and asked for help, and as a result, the University of Indiana RA slammed the freshman against the wall and sexually assaulted her. The freshman then had to push the RA away from her and run away screaming “NO”?
now exactly what part of that paragraph the the word “Cool” fit in, ladies and gentlemen – cause that’s not just “misguided” or “needs a little help”, thats STRAIGHT FUCKING CRIMINAL, yo. Straight up.
Because it’s not. It’s a false analogy I’d expect a child to be able to see through. Random sexual assault buy a stranger is not comparable to the complex existing relationship Billie and Ruth actually have.
I disagree entirely that it’s “criminal”. It’s stupid, it’s an invasion of personal space, but it was also an impulse, and one that she did not force once Billie pushed her away.
First off, Ruth didn’t pounce anyone from behind. Billie got in Ruth’s face, and Ruth pushed back. It was the wrong move, but it was an emotionally tense moment. Once she calmed down, the FEELS hit Ruth in the gut, and she went for the kiss on impulse. Billie didn’t kick or scream. She mindblanked, -reciprocated-, then realized this was NOT OKAY with her and pushed away. When she -did- push away, Ruth let her (remember that Ruth is absolutely able to impose herself on Billie if she wants to) and realized what she did was stupid.
I have to say the comparison you’re drawing isn’t remotely fair.
To be properly fair, you’re both right. What Ruth did is, from two of the three available perspectives here (Ruth’s, Billie’s, and the outside observer’s) describable as you have and as Gordon Blvd has. What we see next of Billie’s reaction is going to be the real driver of where they go from here.
sorry Heavesnrun………..but you are neglecting to rememer that “SLAM” on Thursday. That’s simple assualt right there. As for Friday’s kiss, not EVERY victim of a crime reacts with “lightning speed” nor are they, nor SHOULD they expected to.
……………….and like with some victims, maybe she was afraid to react in a way that she felt would further antagonize her attacker.
Reason I’m putting all this out there is cause I want ppl to know if yr ever in this sorta situation to tell someone……………..cause it’s STRAIGHT WRONG there’s no “cutesie-wootsie” about it in real life, is all…………….
I didn’t say anything remotely like that. I said she didn’t kick or scream, as the girl in the analogy presented did. In the case Gordon described, a person was forcing himself and resisting the struggles of a person who was clearly and loudly expressing DO NOT WANT. In the comic, Ruth pushes somebody who had -grabbed- her, then calms down and kisses her on impulse. It doesn’t make it -okay-, but it does make it more ambiguous than Gordon’s analogy.
That slam was in response to Billie grabbing Ruth violently and shouting at her. -Billie- was the one that made it physical, Ruth responded, and then calmed down and changed tracks. I’m not saying this in the sense of “that makes everything okay”, But if you grab somebody by their shirt, and they push you against a wall, -you- would be the one that started it.
Others have already pointed out that Billie is the one who started the physical handling and invading the other’s personal space in this encounter, and Ruth just escalated it, but, beyond that, I think you’re forgetting Monday’s first panel. If we’d just transitioned from last panel Friday, where Billie is shocked and surprised by Ruth kissing her, to second panel Monday, where Billie is saying “NO” and pushing Ruth away, that’d be one thing. But there’s that first Monday panel in between there. The exact timing is indeterminate, because of the comic strip medium, but still, that’s not Billie “not reacting with lightning speed”… that’s Billie’s first reaction, after the initial shock and surprise, being to relax into the kiss. It’s only after that that she changes her mind and pushes Ruth away – and Ruth doesn’t seem to be resisting being pushed away – and stalks off, seemingly angry rather than frightened.
Now, I’m not saying that Ruth’s behaviour is okay, because it’s not, but it’s not so cut-and-dried as attacking an unwilling stranger from behind, by surprise, and forcing them to fight off an assault, kicking and screaming, either, and I think I want to see more of how Billie’s reacting to it before I decide how not-okay it is.
That’s not even close to the same thing. Comparing this to rape attempt (by a man no less) is just stupid and insulting. You could make case for harassment, but it still doesn’t mean she has to be treated like some kind of monster.
As much as I agree that it is not the same thing AT ALL, I really think that you completely ruined any chance of your comment being valid at all by adding the ‘by a man no less’ statement. Women can be rapist just as easily as men. Men can rape other men. Women can rape men. Women can rape women. Rape is not gender exclusive. Not even a little bit.
This. I personally think a person’s gender is irrelevant to this kind of qustion. That said, relative strength and body mass -is- relevant, and guys trend larger and stronger than girls, whether it’s genetic or societal.
Oh, without a doubt. In our health class in high school, they said the statistic was something like 95% of all sexual assaults are done by men to women. I’m too lazy to look up the actual current numbers but I imagine it’s still much the same. Reasons aside, a rapist is way more likely to be male. But, like you said, in the instance of Somebody’s comment, gender is not a factor. A rape attempt by a man would be no less or more awful then a rape attempt by a woman.
So let me get this straight. Slamming someone up against a wall and forcing a kiss is considered by some of you to be “making a pass”?!? So what Ruth did is considered okay and the fact Billie utilized the “run away” defense for self protection makes everybody sympathize with Ruth?
What if Ruth had been a guy named Richard? Would that have been okay? Because where I’m from, slamming anyone against a wall and forcing sexual attention on them without permission is a move a Dick would make.
I’ll admit, what Ruth did was not okay, and I’m totally with Billie for pushing her away.
The fact that Ruth apparently is actually interested in Billie and evidently has some serious trouble expressing it does make me feel sorry for her, still.
Huh. It gets all the more twisted when you think back to all the times Ruth has assulted Billie. Would Billie want to throw down with a guy who acting like Ruth? Would said guy get away with it as long as Ruth did?
False equivalency. Ruth being Richard WOULD change things.
Maybe if this strip had happened back when their only interaction had been the stolen cheerleader uniform and Ruth had any sort of power over Billie, but the fact is that the power is all in Billie’s corner right now: she could report Ruth for the alcohol, the theft and destruction of her property, and the unwanted sexual advance.
Make Ruth into Richard, and the dynamic changes: Richard is physically stronger, capable of forcing Billie to stay against the wall, and Billie being sexually assaulted by a man would — sadly — be most commonly interpreted, by authority figures — as Billie’s fault, or else something she was making up to get attention.
Because gay is seen by far too many people as deviant and women, unlike men, are expected to be able to control their sexual impulses, an accusation that would bounce off Richard but damage Billie would, instead, DESTROY Ruth.
1. I don’t understand why you are assuming Billie is stronger than Ruth. There doesn’t seem to be even a shred of evidence of that, in fact, I would have assumed the opposite.
2. “All the power is in Billie’s corner.” Well, every single one of these things would STILL be in favor of Billie if it was “Richard.”
3. So we’re just going to assume that there was nothing she could do about it if it was a man, because everyone would assume she is lying? That sounds like exactly what has already goddamn happened when she tried to write about her abusive RA in the paper. I would say it is WORSE because it is ruth and not richard, simply because people are less likely to believe that a woman victimized another woman.
4 A. You are assuming that no one knows she’s gay; as far as I am aware, it has not come up yet, and could be common knowledge among the upper classmen.
B. You are also assuming that it would somehow be easy to accuse another woman of being a lesbian who sexually assaults people, and that it was also somehow easier than accusing a man of being hetero and sexually assaulting people.
I have never written a comment on this, or any, of Willis’ comic sites. I usually just let people say what they want to say. They all seem way more into these than I am. But there was no way I could let a comment as overwhelmingly stupid as this get the last word.
You might as well have said, “Sexual assault and verbal abuse is okay, so long as it’s a woman and you can blackmail her with a chance of success even when she’s in a position of power over you.”
Oh, and btw, if you paid attention, Ruth did not try very hard to keep her down after she yelled no. Which would lead me to believe that, since richard and Ruth are the same, except for gender, he wouldn’t have either, regardless of physical strength.
Comparing the interactions between Billie and Ruth, and Billie and “Richard” is specious at best. It’s a complete false equivalence that utterly disregards both context and the history between Ruth and Billie — a history that could not even have existed if Ruth had been a Richard.
“What if” comparisons only work if you change a single choice, not if you completely re-weave the tapestry of the narrative.
It depends on the authority figure, and what evidence Billie has kept, and how much time has passed. I don’t think a lot of time has passed, so there should be little questioning on why Billie would bring such a matter up.
American culture & legal system are, on average, in favor of a woman’s charge against a man for allegations of sexual harassment, especially with evidence. The fear of lawsuits is a factor, but so in the growing knowledge that such things are not a woman’s fault for somehow instigating.
This influences even authority figures who are sexist (both men & women) against women, and would like to blame a woman for somehow instigating the assault, mainly because of the legality of it.
However, there is still anti-women sexism.
I know one woman who has been on the receiving end of it, when a male co-worker rubbed his crotch against her, in front of witnesses.
After claiming it was a religious act, he was only sent home without pay for a week.
He was fired a few weeks later for punching another co-worker out.
People (both men & women) who work there still snip at her for daring to accuse him of inappropriate behavior and for making things hard for him. (‘He was such a nice guy!’) It should be also noted they are union, which also adds to the difficulty in terminating fellow employees.
Ruth has proved capable of kicking the crap out of Billie once with little effort. She’s perfectly capable of pinning her to the wall if she wants to. To assert that being a man of comparable stature (otherwise you’re not JUST changing gender which was the ENTIRE POINT of the exercise) and you really expect people to buy a lesbian sexual assaulter more than a heterosexual male sexual assaulter? Really? I think GalinKinlin got most of it, but seriously. Bullshit.
The power isn’t all on Billie’s side, either. Although any one of Ruth’s transgressions could get her in trouble, reporting anything that has since been resolved looks suspicious; why report a theft weeks after your possessions are returned? Similarly, any attempt to report Ruth’s alcohol consumption would be foiled by the fact that Billie drank with her and any investigation would probably reveal Billie’s frequent imbibements. And again, it was weeks ago–why report it now?
People know that Ruth and Billie have a problematic relationship, but Billie has less status and most of what she’d be complaining about happened weeks ago. Sure, they’re true and any investigation would probably reveal that, but Billie would undergo a significant character assassination in the process, considering she’s a poor student, an alcoholic, and something of a social pariah.
Even if her abusers actions have given her power in the form of blackmail, she’s still a victim here and certainly doesn’t have “all the power”.
Best way I can think of to describe the situation is: Have you ever had emotions spill over each other? They are not hard and set lines, more blurry. So sometimes when I have extreme anger I float into a peaceful state where I love everyone, but in reality I am doing something slightly out of my concious control. The act of releasing an emotion can be so powerful that you can actually lose control. Trust me, it is one of the worst things in the world.
Alright stop substituting her for a guy. This never would have happened with a man, because he would have been in trouble the first time Billie was hurt. The author wouldn’t have made her a consistent character.
And, GalinKilin, I think you need to take back the part about readers not paying attention. I looked back and that isn’t the case. She wasn’t expecting it and was easily pushed away…she did NOT try to hold her down. Holding an arm out as another person leaves is just a thing people do in fiction–sometimes even in real life. It doesn’t make them come back, but it’s a reaction.
Yep, Ruth. …Yep.
I’ve been thinking about Ruth’s flashback in It’s Walky, and thinking that the Ruth that’s shown there is a bit similar to the Ruth that’s shown here. (Well. Not a lot, but closer than regular Ruth from IW.) With this, I wonder if she’s going to come closer to becoming like IW-Ruth. (If they ever manage to do something together without uncertainty or hostility being exchanged, I wonder if Billie, the party-keen alcoholic, will be the one to introduce her to the concept of “one weekend with no thinking about consequences”. It’d do a nice contrast to the original IW, where Ruth was the one to introduce her to that…)
My two cents on all the haps: Billie made the right decision, but Ruth’s initiation was more desperate than cruel, which took the form of undue aggression. And their relationship up until that point had been far from simple or one-sided. Basically: Can’t be really summed up easily. Overdose of feels on the sides of the characters and the reader.
I’ve read all of Shortpacked!, and I’ve been reading DoA since it began. I think this is the most emotionally powerful strip I’ve ever seen from you, David. Big kudos.
Ruth, maybe – and this is just conjecture – if you didn’t want to be rejected, being a domineering “I WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE FOR FUN AND PROFIT” type wasn’t the best of all possible first impressions.
Dumbing of Age has passed up my previous favorite webcomic, Questionable Content. I still like htem both, but I now look forward to reading DoA more than QC. DoA rules.
And for some reason I was reminded of that old Canadian webcomic (well, it was set in Canada at least) which had a crossover with It’s Walky! I cannot recall what that comic was called.
Looking at all these comments and the reactions… looking at how my own feelings towards Ruth have gone from “God, why is this bongo getting screen time?” to, “Oh, man. I can relate to her, and feel bad.”
I wish David Willis was my Gamemaster. I bet being in a game run by him would be truly epic.
“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward. And in the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It’s the life in your years.”
I feel for Ruth. I think her ‘bullying’ is a defense mechanism borne of past regular abuse or some single trauma. I remember an earlier strip when she was reading a letter and started to cry. She is carrying a lot of baggage and with Billie she decided to jump outside her defense mechanism and it seems to have backfired. I think those of you who are being all “who cares about the bongo” are being blind to her pain. She has exhibited a caring attitude at a few times in the past and I think that was a hint of the the person she really is.
Funny, while I’ve never really tried Ruth’s approach before, my romantic overtures still end the same way, though with about 10% less fetal position since I’m not that flexible.
This is the reason I like Willis. If this situation went any other way it would most likely not be a webcomic worthy of my interest.
That being said, I also think this earns a DAMN YOU, WILLIS?
So, all past history of Ruth and Billie aside, if a lovely red-head pushed me forcefully up against a wall and kissed me, I would’ve liked it. Even with the ‘slam’ factor. Maybe because of it? I am probably a bad person.
Wow Ruth, it sucks when you treat someone terribly who you’re attracted to because you’re unsure of how to show her how you feel and it blows up in your face when you make a move on her.
In Billy’s defense: Being an asshole to someone is not a good way to get them to like you.
In Ruth’s defense: Imma guess she has problems and in the style of most sassy webcomic girls she takes care of them with violence and she has no idea what to fucking do because srsly guys she’s young and we young people are so fucking clueless.
We are impossibly, completely, hopelessly clueless.
Not that we should all deal with our cluelessness by treat people we have crushes on like a punching bag. That’s just not the way to go.
Also? AMEN to the sassy webcomic girl = violence thing. Early Faye from Questionable Content makes Ruth look mild in comparison and everybody still loved her.
I am conflicted about this turn of events. On the one hand, Billie/Ruth is an enjoyable ship. On the other hand, forcing yourself on someone, Ruth? Bad idea, full stop. On the other other hand, I really hope the Billie/Ruth ship sails into happier ship-bearing waters.
*references to Roomies ahead*
*I know they don’t have an impact on the plot, but shoosh*
If we have to watch Ruth die again in a similar situation I’m not sure if I can handle that emotional punch to the gut. I will start sobbing loudly in public. It will not be good.
I really hope this ship doesn’t sail, Willis. At least without a ton of stuff getting cleared out. Otherwise you are excusing abusive behavior just because you have a crush on someone. Yes, Ruth has problems and baggage and some kindness in her. That in no way excuses her actions, and the attitudes from these comments make it pretty clear same-sex abusive relationships are not taken seriously.
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FEEEEELLSSS
I concur.
As in, Willis feels nothing when he draws. He laughs, LAUGHS I TELL YOU! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Why would he laugh if he felt nothing?
BECAUSE HE IS EVIL.
so all i gotta do is make a comment, have girls kiss…..and i can get 600 comments too…..
comic* ack
Well, first you have to make enjoyable comics for about fifteen years…
In middle school ESOL we were discussing emotions, and I suggested “evil hapiness”
Is that what you’re describing?
You could say that, yup.
The Germans call it schadenfreude.
Jeph Jacques knows that emotion well.
So Willis is a sociopath who simply laughs because he decides do..? err… ok…
No no, you guys are reading this all wrong. She’s not berating herself over kissing Billie; she’s berating herself over still supporting the Leafs 😀
Why not support the Leafs? Their zamboni driver was the King of Spain!
Moxy Fruvous? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Yes, but now he eats humble pie.
One! Two! Three! Four!
Canada has already apologized for Jian Gomeshi AND Leafs fans, it will not appologize for them again.
Gion Gomeshi is a national treasure, Dammit.
(Aside from the fact that he’s pretentious, and speaks more than his interviewees)
It’s extremely interesting to re-read two-year-old comments…
Perfect gravatar, of course.
Yeah, Flames forever, man.
… How am I going to say that when I move to Toronto? ;-P
Right. Because it’s so much better to be a Calgary fan right now.
…says the man whose team has never won the Cup.
Yea, as soon as I saw that Leafs poster, I knew that comment was coming.
Same here. ^^; I don’t think that was entirely a coincidence.
And I’m supposed to be a Leafs fan, heh.
we all know that feel…
I see your FEEL and raise you a DRAMA.
ARGH, RIGHT IN THE HEARTPLACES!
Ruth just can’t get a break… I mean, first she dies, and then this! Willis, you may be awesome, but you are horrible. I love/hate you.
Poor Ruth. :'(
I mean, you totally deserved this to happen after how you treated her and her friends, but it’s still so sad.
Yeah, that’s more or less how I feel. Kudos to Willis for making each character have something you can sympathize with about him/her.
while i agree with both you and ogre, i want to see these two happy, if only because i actually like ruth, and to make up for original ruth’s accident. that was sad
I never said I didn’t want them together. I said that she deserves the rejection. I want to see her get past whatever it was that made her act the way she did and earn Billie’s love. Same with Billie and her self-image. Though if they improve and they don’t wind up together I’d be just as happy.
Agreed. Billie and Ruth would make a cute couple… if they could both get over their issues.
Also, assuming they can resist the urge to be hit by a truck.
Happy=/=in a relationship together though…
I don’t feel sad for Ruth though. If she really want to create a bridge for a relationship she can do it with less bullying and physical violence.
Well, one could imagine that her behavior is a byproduct of traumatic experiences in her youth. That’d garner sympathy points from me.
Not for me, but maybe it just hits a little too close to home. (Ruth reminds me of an ex of mine :p) But seriously, childhood trauma is not an excuse to treat someone you like like crap.
What if Ruth herself is surprised by her own feelings?
Perhaps she tried to rid of them by treating Billie so bad and finally gave in?
Her problem was she didn’t try to entice Billie with a double length silicone toy!
Draw her dream sequence tomorrow and get 2000 comments!!
I thought I already saw that on tumblr.
Link! LINK!
Thank you Dash Jovis! There is no good reason for abusing someone you’re supposed to care about.
Even if she had traumatic experiences in her youth she’s in college/university now and just one stepping stone jump to become “responsible adult.” But she still abuse her power as an RA like an elementary school bully and it will not help her when she jump into work environment.
She’s old enough to seek help.
It’s easy to say from the outside, but if you’re feeling depressed and alone, sometimes it’s not easy to admit you need help – and even harder to go through with getting help, even if you can admit you need it.
Heck, I’m 37 and I’m not old enough to seek help. I am old enough to recognize when I’m behaving terribly and irrationally and to stop and try to figure out what the heck I’m doing, and she is too, though.
(Not that I *do* stop and think. But I’m old enough to.)
I know that myself. I know I need help. It’s the going through with getting it that I have trouble with. That and I have no idea where to start, or how to get past that voice that tells me I’d be wasting my time and the time of anyone trying to help me.
Irrespective of the conversation, Sound Defense, but I didn’t quite pay attention to your Gravatar at first, thought it was a picture of Alan Rickman as Severus Snape and your post was… very much functionally different in my head as a result.
It helps that I’ve been quite the fan of Rickman since he was a fresh-faced Sheriff of Nottingham threatening to cut out hearts with spoons, and thus have quite a functional mental library of lines to patch thoughts together with.
Given how she approached it Billie’s reaction was totally reasonable, but when I look at Ruth in that last panel I don’t think anyone deserves that.
I disagree. I think some people absolutely deserve that.
Reconciliation requires that all parties feelings are respected. The “you shut up cause your in the wrong” attitude causes more anti-social behavior because the offender resents the system.
Conflict resolution is moving forward through greater understanding and sanctioning undesirable behavior. If I was any kind of authority at that university I would fire ruth as an RA, let her continue iliving in another residence building IF she was repentant, and assure Billie that ruth would not be allowed to have any power over her again. I would direct Ruth to student counseling and ask Billie if she would give Ruth the chance to explain/appologize.
Ruth being sad by herself, or sad and bitter by herself off campus, does not help correct her behavior in the future. All it does is piss her off and leave her with the choice of how to work that out. Furthermore, leaving ruth as a psycho weirdo threat in Billies mind makes the incident seem worse than it really is. Allowing her to see Ruth penitent and vulnerable counters the image of her as powerful and helps diffuse future confrontations.
Yeah, I find myself with a surprising amount of sympathy for her. (Also, I have now left my bunk.)
Poor Ruth, life for a Leafs fan is hard.
Against my better judgement, I feel bad for Ruth.
Likewise.
Ditto. I know the feeling of people brushing you off when you try to help.
It’s like feeling bad for Malaya, but I feel less dirty.
Actually Malaya and Ruth have had some character defining good moments, which everyone forgets after a few weeks and focuses only on the bad.
They don’t mean to be dicks… they’re just very good at doing it accidentally.
I disagree. I think that both Malaya and Ruth spend a good part of their time actively trying to be dicks. You don’t denigrate geeks, threaten femurs, or bodily attack people by accident.
I do think that they are capable of some small modicum of goodness, though, and more than that in the future, but they both have a lot of growing up to do.
Malaya doesn’t do it to be a dick, she just can’t see anything from other people’s points of view. I mean when she ‘dated’ Leslie she genuinely thought she liked her, but when she realised she didn’t she couldn’t think of how she might seem from Leslie’s PoV.
As for Ruth… she just has a huge control complex (probably something to do with unknown phone person) and is determined to not let anyone be able to get any control over her.
Your judgement is not impaired.
Ditto. I thought she was just fucking with Billie to freak her out.
The latter part we got.
I feel bad for her, but I am again relieved to see her experiencing remorse and understanding that she fucked things up. That she might take this as a wake-up call for dealing with her problems is, I think, the best we could hope for.
I sympathize, Ruth, but…next time? Try it without the two weeks of bullying beforehand.
Maybe according to Ruth-logic, bullying = foreplay.
So she’s up the the “pulling pigtails = I like you” level of maturity? I’d mock, but I wasn’t much smoother in college.
Ruth went to the Helga Pataki school of romance.
I wanna see the Billie shrine made of gum she has in her closet.
I know a guy who dates a girl he used to terrorize. Not that kind of terrorize.
I hope there was a slightly longer period between “used to” and “dates” than there was in Ruth’s method.
So… she was a Predacon?
Well, she’s at least a step ahead of Walky was at the start of the year. I mean, he was still at the ‘Throw toys at her’ stage.
Pretty much everyone has a less than mature way of pairing up, hell the Danny/Amazi-Girl ship is the most mature one I seen in DoA.
You’re right. That’s kind of insane.
Actually, I’d say that Joe’s smarmy casual sex is the most mature thing in this comic relationship-wise. It’s pretty sad when the most mature relationship isn’t even a stable one, but one-night stands.
The idea that Joe/Roz was the most mature pair is kinda scary.
You have to be kidding me.
Clark Kenting aside, Danny has fallen for a girl largely because she saved him from getting his ass kicked once. Amber is pursuing a dude who has already rejected her once to her face. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
And then you look at everyone else and realize that what you just described is exactly the point Plasma was making 😐
Nah. Dorothy/Walky is actually pretty good on the fundamentals. They hit a rocky patch or two, but came through it anyway.
… Dorothy is trying to have an adult relationship with, for all intents and purposes, a child (who is clinging to childhood as hard as he can, despite these weird ‘hormones’ that make him feel funny around girls).
Yeah, when Billie grabbed her shirt, Ruth figured she was down with it.
“Stupid. It was so stupid of me to beat up the object of my affections for two weeks. Mother always told me that four weeks was the MINIMUM, but did I listen?!”
AKA Tsundere’s Remorse.
“Should have gone with twin tails…”
we now need a photoshop of the last panel wordswitching ‘idiot’ for ‘baka’.
… in fact, let’s have this entire two-word strip translated into japanese. Also turned into yonkoma.
(moonrunes optional)
… I’ll stop now.
Assuming I’ve done my translations right (I probably haven’t)…
http://www.snowboundmanga.com/fun/doa_baka.jpg
Now do it right-to-left!
Also, is that by any chance fanart of Hakamichi Shizune in your gravatar?
There is every chance that today’s grav is Shizune. 🙂
I just realized Shizune looks oddly similar to Ciel without her cat-ears.
I’m giving the screen a hug but she isn’t feeling better.
Please don’t cry ruth…
GAAAAAH STOP MAKING ME FEEL THINGS WILLIS!
Squeeze harder! When you hear a cracking sound, it’s working!
Why does everything got to be so complicated
I see the way you’re acting like you’re somebody else gets me frustrated
Tell me what you want, what you really really want
One of these [comments] is not like the others.
One of these [comments] doesn’t belong.
Oh who are the people in your neighborhood?
In your neighborhood? In your neighborhood?
Say, who are the people in your neighborhood?
The people that you meet each day
Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can.
Spins a web, any size, catches thieves just like flies
LOOK OUT! Here comes the Spider-Man.
Oh, Turpentine erase me whole
Cause I don’t want to live my life alone
Well I was waiting for you all my life
Let’s get down to business, to defeat the Hun
Spider-Pig, Spider-Pig, does whatever a Spider-Pig does.
Can he spin, spider web?
No he can’t, he’s a pig.
Here comes the Spider-Pig!
Charge it, point it, zoom it, press it, Snap it, work it, quick – erase it, Write it, cut it, paste it, save it, Load it, check it, quick – rewrite it
Cuz baby you’re a firework
. . . What in the actual fuck?
C-c-c-combo BREAKER!
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree,
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
Ticking away, the moments the make up a dull day,
fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way
My ding-a-ling-a-ling!
My ding-a-ling-a-ling!
I want to play with my ding-a-ling-a-ling!
Your body is a wonderland
scaramouche scaramouche will you do the fandango
Fa la la la la, la la la la
We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine, yellow submarine
WHO LET THE DOGS OUT, WHO WHO WHO WHO
Thunderbolt and lightning, really really frightening me.
Heeeeeeeeeyyyyy, sexy lady
Op, op op op, oppa Gangnam Style
Oh, you touch my tralala?
Mmh, my ding ding dong…
I wana be, the very best! Like no one ever was!!
People won’t be people when they hear this sound
That’s been glowing in the dark at the edge of town
People won’t be people, no
The people won’t be people when they hear this sound
Won’t you show me what begins at the edge of town
I see you driving ’round town with the girl I love
and I’m like,
“Fuck you!”
Ooo, ooo, oooo
Bang, bang! Maxwell’s silver hammer
Came down upon her head!
(du-doo de-ooh-ooh)
Bang, bang! Maxwell’s silver hammer
Made sure she was dead!”
all the lonely people
where do they all come from
all the lonely people
where do they all belong
He’s Shaun the sheep – (He’s Shaun the sheep)
He’s Shaun the sheep – (He’s Shaun the sheep)
He even mucks about with those who cannot bleat – (Cannot bleat)
Keep it in mind
He’s one of a kind
Oh…..
Life’s a treat with Shaun the Sheep
I dunno about you people, but I feel like commenting on the comic. Ahem.
I wish that I could turn back time
’cause now the guilt is all mine
can’t live without the trust from those you love
I know we can’t forget the past
you can’t forget love and pride
because of that, it’s killin’ me inside
It all returns to nothing, it all comes
tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down
It all returns to nothing, I just keep
letting me down, letting me down, letting me down
Well, if you want to comment on the comic…
Help me I broke apart my insides,
Help me I’ve got no soul to sell
Help me the only thing that works for me,
Help me get away from myself
I want to fuck you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I want to fuck you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to god
In response to Shaun the Sheep:
Way down in the firey lake
Lucifer had a lot at stake
But he wanted some lamb chops instead
And Sherri Lewis wasn’t dead (which dates the song)
So he found some virgin wool
Grabbed its soul and begin to pull
But who would have thought
That the lamb that he caught
Would rebel and conquer and rule
zankoku na tenshi no you ni
Shounen yo shinwa ni nare
aoi kaze ga ima
mune no DOA wo tataite mo
watashi dake wo tada mitsumete
hohoen deru anata
sotto fureru mono
motomeru koto ni muchuu de
unmei sae mada shiranai
itaike na hitomi
dakedo itsu ka kizuku deshou
sono senka ni wa
haruka mirai mezasu tame no
hane ga aru koto
* zankoku na tenshi no TEEZE
mado hen kara yakate tobi tatsu
hoto bashiru atsui PATOSU de
omoide o uragiru nara
kono sora wo daite kagayaku
shounen yo shinwa ni nare
zutto nemutteru
watashi no ai no yurikago
anata dake ga yume no SHISHA ni
yobareru asa kakuru
hosoi kubisuji o
tsuki akari ga utsu shiteru
sekai CHUU no toki o tomete
tojiru kometai kedo
moshimo futari aeta koto ni
imi ga aru nara
watashi wa sou jiyuu o shiru
tame no BAIBURU
zankoku na tenshi no TEEZE
kanashimi ga soshite hajimaru
dakishimeta inochi no ka tachi
sono yume ni mazamameta toki
dare yori mo hikari o hanatsu
shounen yo shinwa ni nare
hito wa ai wo tsumugi nagara
rekishi o tsukuru
megami nante narenai mama
watashi wa ikiru
Yay for Evangelion references!
(How do I top that one?)
I’ve heard there was a secret chord,
That David played and it pleased the Lord
But you don’t really care for music, do ya?
It goes like this, the Fourth, the Fifth,
The minor fall, the major lift,
The baffled king composing
Hallelujah
But then I saw her face!
Now I’m a believer!
Not a trace, of doubt in my mind!
I’m in love. Oooooh, I’m a believer, I couldn’t leave her, even if I tried.
With cat-like tread,
Upon our prey we steal;
In silence dread,
Our cautious way we feel.
No sound at all!
We never speak a word;
A fly’s foot-fall
Would be distinctly heard–
Yesterday
All my troubles seemed so far away
Now it looks as though they’re here to stay
Oh I believe in yesterday
Why she had to go
I don’t know, she wouldn’t say.
I said something wrong,
now I long for yesterday.
Yesterday
Love was such an easy game to play
Now I need a place to hide away
Oh, I believe in yesterday.
Since she’s been gone I want no one to talk to me.
It’s not the same, but I’m to blame, it’s plain to see.
So go away, leave me alone, don’t bother me.
I can’t believe that she would leave me on my own.
It’s just not right when every night I’m all alone.
I’ve got no time for you right now, don’t bother me.
I’ve lost my battle before it starts,
My first breath wasn’t done,
My spirit is sunken deep
Into the ground.
Why am I alone?
I can hear my heartbeat..
…silence is all around.
-To a heartbroken sinner like the rest of us
(Mordred’s Song by Blind Guardian)
Joyce needs to come in there and offer some hugs.
She wouldn’t do that, she needs her Femurs to live.
Wrong. It needs to be Dina. And it needs to be without any warning. And when Ruth asks why, she’ll say ‘You looked like you needed it.’ 10 points to the person who gets it.
…Man, right in the damn feels all over again.
That said, 1. we might be giving DOA!Dina too much credit, and 2. we’ve seen WV!Ruth and WV!Dina interact, if only briefly. They’re…not overly fond of each other.
Despite all this emotion all I can think about is that leaf’s poster in her room. CANUCKS ALL THE WAY.
WILD FOR…AS LONG AS PARISE’S THERE.
And then I’ll go back to not giving a crap about a particular hockey team.
Red Wings forever!
Oilers rule.
What? It’s not as bad as cheering for the Leafs, at least they have won a few cups sometime in living memory.
Eh, she kind of deserves to feel bad. Not for herself though
“Stupid” pretty much sums it up, unfortunately.
A possibility: several days from now, after zero communication between Billie and Ruth, Billie notices her Dragons uniform has once again gone missing. She causes a distraction to get Ruth out of her room and sneaks in, and finds the missing uniform. The “N” has been shoddily sewn back on, and the “S” is half-done. A nearby napkin is dotted with blood from pinpricks from a sewing needle.
After this, reconciliation begins (possibly).
I’m rooting for a straight-forward apology instead of further invasion of privacy.
I’m rooting for privacy invading hijinks
I suspect Billie will come to Ruth’s room fairly soon, either the same day or the next
Stupid for kissing her, or stupid for having been a bongo to her beforehand, that is the question, whether tis nobler… Um… I forget where I was going with that.
Whether ’tis nobler of the Ruth to launch the slings and arrows of outrageous tsundere
Or to take up arms against a sea of tubflesh, and by opposing, hit that.
To bang, perchance to screw – no more!
And by a screw to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural stupids
That Ruth is heir to. ‘Tis a rockin’ body,
Devoutly to be tapped. To bang, to screw;
To screw: perchance to strip. Ay, there’s the rub…
Well, yea, if it’s two girls, rubbing is pretty much a given.
zing!
Out of the two of them, Billie has more self-respect.
And that’s a distressingly low bar.
I wouldn’t say Billie has ever displayed low self respect. She may in fact have a bit too much of an ego with all her “I’m a cheerleader!” stuff.
The fact that she makes poor decisions isn’t evidence of low self respect. And by poor decisions I of course mean underage drinking – not, say, nearly sleeping with Danny or Joe – we have no evidence of poor decision making there, although if she is not on birth control and doesn’t use condoms, then that would be another risky behavior on her part and not at all unsurprising – If she was being reckless about the risks of sexual activity, that, too, would be perhaps poor decision making, but not because women who have casual sex necessarily have no self-respect.
Personally I think Billie needs more break the ego moments. Maybe Ruth, too.
I’m entirely in favor of women having casual sex, preferably with me, but…
In all seriousness, my take on it is that Billie is looking for someone to validate her. She’s gone from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in a very large pond, and she’s not coping well with it. She’s clinging to the cheerleader identity because her sense of self-worth is shattered, and “I’m a cheerleader, dammit!” is all she’s got to reassure herself that she’s worthwhile… and it doesn’t mean anything anymore. Maybe being a cheerleader is a status point at IU (I’m not familiar with the campus culture, so I can’t say), but having been a cheerleader back at some podunk high school sure isn’t.
And, seriously, I don’t have anything against casual sex. I’m not trying to slut-shame Billie. But she didn’t throw herself at Danny because she because she wanted some orgasms and thought he looked like just the dork to give them to her, she threw herself at Danny because he propped up her shaky sense of self-worth by telling her that she was hot enough to be a cheerleader.
Oh yeah and he rejected her. And Joe, who’ll sleep with anything with boobs, rejected her. And Walky, stupid obnoxious Walky, has a hot girlfriend somehow. And people, including but not limited to Ruth, keep calling her fat and nerdy and so on. And she’s been thrown across a room.
She’s been insulted, dismissed, disregarded, and/or physically and emotionally abused by… well, practically everyone. She desperately wants a friend, desperately enough that she’s willing to open herself up to Ruth on the shaky hope that some of Ruth’s inconsistent behaviour is an extended hand of friendship, and despite the abusive behaviour that it’s been mixed with – see her plea immediately before Ruth elbowed her in the chest, pinned her to a wall, and planted a kiss on her. I feel pretty safe in guessing that the reason that Billie wants a friend that badly is not because she feels confident and secure in herself.
And Ruth? Well, we haven’t seen nearly as much of what makes Ruth tick as we have Billie, but I’m thinking Ruth’s pretty broken already, too, and trying to pull herself up by pushing Billie down.
(Pardon if any of this seems incoherent… these comment boxes are not the best for essay-writing at the best of times, and they go wonky on this browser when the comments get nested, and there’s no preview or edit functions.)
I totally agreed with you untill that 2nd last paragraph, Ruth clearly isn’t trying to push Billie down… I mean look at the page you’re commenting on!
She’s clearly got problems and likes Billie, she’s just dealing with everything terribly.
Well, I don’t think that’s how Ruth thinks about it. And, like I said, we haven’t seen so much about what’s going on inside Ruth’s head. But if I had to wildly speculate based on flimsy evidence – and that’s what I’m paid to do, right? – I’d guess that Ruth’s experience has not taught her how to have a relationship between equals. She likes Billie, and she’s dealing with it terribly, because the only way she knows to run a relationship puts one of them in charge, and the other subordinate. And she doesn’t want to be the subordinate. (I’m not sure what her relationship with Mysterious Phone Person is, but… I don’t think she’s in charge of that one.) And so all of her interactions with Billie, from throwing her across the room to handling her little elevator problem to slamming her up against a wall and kissing her, have been oriented towards establishing that Ruth is the one in charge here.
Which doesn’t mean that she doesn’t care about Billie, or can’t be hurt by Billie’s rejection, just that she has an emotional need to firmly establish herself on the top of the hierarchy.
(Wait, what, I’m not getting paid by the word for this?
… I’m not getting paid at all?
Well, screw this, then.)
I definately agree with most of this. Ruth obviously has a pathological need for control, but I don’t think she’s a bad person. Actually, with just these 2 strips plus the one where they drink beer in Billie’s room, I have started to like Ruth much more as a character. She was a pretty flat character otherwise. Although I guess her fleshing-out started with the mystery phone call/ drunken aftermath.
Well put.
I totally agree, and it’s all very sad T___T
More break the ego moments? Her College experience so far as being a conga-line of ego-breaking moments.
She also doesn’t deserve to be broken in anyway. She’s not a villain.
And underage drinking and sleeping around? What are you, a Victorian? Ain’t nothing wrong with that save for the negative effects it has, which is nothing so far.
To be fair, underage drinking can easily be a poor decision if, say, you’re doing it so publicly that the college has it noted in your file before you even arrive. I mean, it still is a crime, isn’t it?
Stupid for kissingbher, or stupid for having been a bongo to her beforehand, that is the question, whether tis nobler… Um… I forget where I was going with that.
:'(
Q_Q
Your comment says sad, but your avatar says angry.
It’s my favourite comment.
And the worst part is, she’s most likely going to wake up and realize she broke her glasses.
Yup, pretty much guaranteed with them at her (still-in-boots!) feet.
[Even if she doesn’t fall asleep]
You just figured that out, Ruth?
Yeah Ruth, probably the stupidest thing you could have ever done to someone you’ve been abusing the last few days (er, comic and real time).
Looks like she got blue leafed.
It’s even visually oppressing over her.
Man, you guys are hard on Ruth. Her life is just continuously shit upon. I really like her as a character and I’m hoping everything works out for her in the end (or at least turns out better for her than in Roomies).
I hope things work out better too, but frankly she asked for this. Her courtship rituals are pretty far off the reservation.
Give this girl some femurs.
Femurs, femurs for sale.
Ruth, you are bad at social interaction.
Yes, Ruth, stupid. Really, really goddamn stupid. At least you’re aware of it.
I’m trying not to stray into “hating fictional character for making mistakes” land, because that way lies madness. Clearly Ruth’s flaws here are intentional.
But I’ve got no sympathy here at all. What Ruth did went beyond playground bullying. Physical assault, theft and destruction of property, outright blackmailing…Billie’s not exactly a paragon of virtue, but the worst she’s done has been in retaliation.
Now, I’m sure at some point Willis will show us why, in Ruth’s fractured mind, following that up with sexual assault (mild and well-intentioned though it may’ve been) is okay, and perhaps then I’ll soften towards her, but at the moment, all I can really feel is happiness that this resolved the way it did.
Yeah, I have to agree. I like tsundere characters but there’s a clear line between acting all tsundere and acting all rude (with added physical violence and blackmail).
Ruth stepping out of the boundaries too many time and she realized that it doesn’t work a little bit too late.
I agree. Though I don’t get the appeal of the tsundere characters, they are too easy to read and most of the time, they come off as bongoes who likes to make life tough for their targets. I prefer characters who are honest about their feelings.
Tsundere’s has its own types. Some tsunderes are simply women in denial when she liking someone. Some will try to act high and mighty. Some will act condescending. But in the end they still show some affections and sometimes act normal with the guy/girl she like.
Ruth…. well, she’s ruder than most tsunderes on anime I saw. The exception is probably that girl from Zero no Tsukaima. But I have this feeling that the her love interest is pretty masochist too.
You don’t hate fictional characters? What are you doing in a comments thread? 😉
I like to think of us as all having some form of reverse schizophrenia. Instead of arguing with the voices in our heads, we argue with the various voices in Willis’s head. We literally side with some figments of his imagination against others.
Putting it that way, this whole process is a little disturbing. But I’m sure it’s somehow all Malaya’s fault. 😀
That comment + that gravatar ? Made of Win !
I read your comment (especially the first sentence) with the voice of Head Alien speaking directly at Ruth, and it’s perfect. Exactly the kind of psycholodgical torture that HA enjoys.
The worst/best part ? everything you said is true.
But, I love well written flawed characters! One of the reasons why fiction is so great is that you can relate to and sympathize with characters who commit acts that in real life should be condemned; in fiction there are no real people getting hurt.
I think it’s great to see this first from Ruth’s point of view.
I love well-written flawed characters too, but my like of how this storyline is written is divorced from my ability to really sympathize with Ruth here.
One of these days we’re gonna need a Ruth back story. There’s gotta be something going on here.
The iron of Ruth’s mystery phone call (from when Billie snuck into her room and hid in the closet) is still decidedly in the fire.
Such a tangled web. This whole mess is far from over.
I also think it’s worth pointing out that Billie’s been pretty hostile to Ruth from the beginning. She picked the fight at the floor meeting, remember? Thing have just gone downhill from there. So far, Ruth’s been the only one to make any effort to patch things up.
Ruth was out of line with the bullying, but Billie is far from a helpless victim in this relationship.
Billie had one moment of bravado, and then she was so firmly in the ‘helpless victim’ category that one feels she’s lucky to have survived. At any point she was in a sort-of relationship (as opposed to just being in the same room), she has been the victim.
I agree that Billie has been antagonized by Ruth more than the reverse, but all I’m saying is that Billie picked a fight and started this whole thing in the first place. I think labeling her as a ‘helpless victim’ is exaggerating things at least a little.
Also, we shouldn’t forget that Billie broke into Ruth’s room and invaded her privacy during a very vulnerable moment. Honestly? I think that is just as serious an offense as this whole episode.
The sad part is, Billie pretty much ruined any chance of a relationship by running off. Ruth was already very cautious about showing affection to Billie, and when she did, it bit her in the ass and now she will probably go back to the way she was, or go even worse.
I may not agree with some of what Ruth has done, but this is pretty sad. Oh well, the ship has sank and I’m loosing interest. Toodles
You blame Billie for this? even after she’s being abused and bullied by Ruth over and over again? Billie is not the kind of woman who think that abuse = love. It’s just not right. Relationship need to be build with trust and tolerance for each other.
Not really. All it would take is just one of them to be an adult and tell the other how they feel about things, instead of playing middle school guessing games about each other’s level of interest. If Ruth approached Billie and explained to her: “i was in a bad place, really unsure, but i really like you, etc etc flattery, sorry for the way i acted” I think Billie would at least be receptive to hearing her out. Now, if Billie approaches Ruth and says: ” Sorry, I was really surprised, especially after how you treated me. I’m not some high school kid anymore who wants mixed signals, I want a real relationship based on respect” then maybe that would help Ruth to break through some previously established bad social habits. Losing out on something you want because of the way you treat people, or the threat of losing it, is really the only way anyone changes those patterns of behavior.
Cautious? What comic did you read?
the one with subtext
Who sleeps with shoes on?
The truly miserable and alone.
My guess? Walky, because he doesn’t want to risk losing another pair.
I’m not touching a straight line that easy.
how about touching an easy line that straight?
If this plays out like it usually has for me, she will at some point rouse herself enough to take off the shoes and put the glasses (hopefully still unbroken) away. This may come after she’s already drifted off once as she is, and then woken because that’s not a very comfortable way to sleep.
To think: the only reason this didn’t work out was because Ruth didn’t throw a monkey toy at Billies head…
Oh and the emotional and physical abuse, but mainly the lack of monkey toy
Gotta admit, monkeys are love.
Ahh, shit.
Awwww :'(
Ruth hurts, too.
Ah fetal position, we meet again
My old nemesis.
My nemesis are chili, dogs and clowns.
Mmmm…Chili dog clowns.
The creepiest food ever!
I think chili clown dogs would be creepier food. 😀
I’m going to go cry now.
Yes, Ruth, you are stupid. Glad you figured that out.
I’m withholding judgment until we see how Billie reacts to this, once she’s alone and has a minute to process it.
Even odds that the reaction will involve booze.
I’m bawwing.
Yes, it is stupid that you are leaving your glasses by your feet, Ruth.
Ruth’s actions aren’t very surprising. She seems to be extremely lonely, yet the only way she’s familiar with people dealing with each other is through intimidation and abuse, so that’s what she does. When she does try to reach out to someone, she doesn’t know how other than huge gestures that are completely at odds with her public persona – and then she immediately goes back to being abusive in order to keep from being vulnerable. Billie did the right thing by rejecting advances from an inconsistent, hurtful person who undoubtedly would have caused her far more pain if they had gotten close. I hope that Ruth gets help, sees a therapist, and gradually learns to relate to others in a healthy manner.
Given Billie’s personality I honestly doubt it’s anything that deep. Probably just a kneejerk, ‘Oh crap I’m being kissed what do I do? Oh wait, I’m being kissed by a girl! I don’t think I’m into girls!’ Doubtless she will go analyze it now and we’ll figure out if she really is into girls at all. If she’s smart, which Billie isn’t, she’d come to the conclusion that it’s unhealthy like you said, regardless of if she’s into girls.
Even leaving aside alternate-universe inside knowledge (with Ruth, no less!), I’m pretty sure Billie is into girls. (See: trying to put the mack on
Amazi-GirlSal. I think I’ve seen other indications, too.)Whether she knows it when she’s sober, I’m not so sure yet. I’m honestly kind of hoping that it’s sort of a, “Yeah, I’m bi. So?” thing. There are plenty enough things wrong with this relationship that sexual identity confusion doesn’t need to enter into it.
As someone who has spent time alone in dorm rooms and college apartments after doing stupid things, I have a lot of sympathy for Ruth.
Also I love freckles.
+1 to all of the above.
It’s completely obvious in hindsight that Billie rejected her, given all the abuse she gave her since now. But I was still expecting Billie to reciprocate and jump into a super-lovey relationship that would ‘fix’ Ruth’s abusiveness etc. because that’s how you solve domestic violence, RIGHT? /sarcasm
And it’s probably because of my immediate “Yay, lesbians!” reaction.
Act with integrity, Ruth . . . no regrets!
Stop that.
Once was enough.
Today’s comic gives no satisfaction.
Much like being a Leafs fan.
Both of them need help, but Ruth needs it worse. Hitting people to get their attention is a trait people usually grow out of before starting school. Her backstory will likely have her growing up in an abusive household, or orphanage where she never learned affection.
Yup, for sure something wrong here, sitting around anylizing fictional characters…but damn its fun.
There’s entire departments dedicated to that- I don’t think it’s that abnormal.
…
i’ve decided i’m shipping ruthxmike now. because i am.
Seriously ?
We’ve spent the last 5 days in the comments section explaining how and why “Hatefuck is not cool” and “Abusive relationships are definitely not cool” (this may even be why Willis’s plan when writing this storyline), yet you decide to ship the most unhealthy relationship Ever ?
… not that Mike*Ruth wouldn’t be insanely Hot but…
damnit, now I’m (almost) shipping it too !
Why not just ship her with a cardboard cutout of Mike laced with itching powder. Same thing.
This. This all the way. If we can’t have totally unhealthy and illogical RuthxBillie then we’re going to have even worse and hateful RuthxMike.
For a nickel.
Aargh! Don’t leave your glasses there! You’ll forget about them and crush them! (I speak from experience)
…frankly, Ruth…
No shit you are.
Maybe being a giant asshole was a bad tactic
T_____________T
I know that feeling.
And no you judgmental motherfuckers, no one whose offenses are as petty as Ruth’s deserves to feel like that.
Physical assault, theft, destruction of property and blackmail are “petty”?
She never initiated assault, Billie always did that. The rest followed on from that.
Also Billie seems less butthurt over it than you.
Yes, Billie isn’t “butthurt” about how her interactions with Ruth have been going, which is why she just confronted Ruth about her scary-erratic behavior, demonstrates palpable fear of her on multiple occasions, and tried to expose her in an IDS article. Naturally.
Also, Billie initiated assault in response to verbal abuse–and in fact the first time she attacked Ruth it was because Ruth taunted her into doing so.
No, she threatened Ruth, Ruth said bring it, Billie brought it, she lost. When she hit Ruth in the face the second time she did so with good reason but she still initiated and Ruth didn’t strike back.
She confronted Ruth not because she was upset that Ruth was always mean to her but because she was inconsistently mean and nice. When Ruth came to her in her room they got along fine and Billie showed concern for her. You don’t show concern for people you have only negative feelings towards.
Their relationship isn’t entirely antagonistic.
I totally agree. I feel like all the people shouting “ABUSE, ABUSE !!” really have no idea what they are talking about. They all sound like walking Public Service Announcements. I’ve seen worse teasing and antagonizing in any frat I’ve ever been to daily. Ruth and Billie’s physical altercations have all been mutual, not one-sided abuse. Has Ruth been emotionally manipulative? Sure. But there are plenty of assholes who abuse a position of power: bosses, professors, etc. That doesn’t make it okay, but some of the reader reactions are crazy over-the-top. I think a lot of people are viewing this through the lens of their alternate universe history.
This, a thousand times this. And at the very least, if there is abuse going on between them, it’s mutual and always has been.
Even tough I knew this was how it was going to out, I still feel really bad for Ruth. I know how it is to take a chance and get screwed over by it. I’ve learned since, but good job portraying that fearlessness that comes with infatuation.
Turn out*
Just like the Leafs, Ruth is always losing
As someone from Toronto who doesn’t give a crap about the Leafs, this made me smile.
So… Is Billie even into girls?
Yeah, she came on to Sal when she was drunk (and thought Sal was Amazi-Girl).
FUUUUUUUUCK……:(
I haz a sad.
I require the saddest of faces to react to this comic.
I don’t have a sad face!
(lionpout)
You mean the saddest FAAAAAAAAACCCEEE!
Sorry, somebody had to do it, and I drew the short straw.
The math was off.
I don’t feel sad for Rith, but not because she deserves something bad to happen to her or something. It’s because this is where she needs to be now, if she wants to ever have a chance with Billie. She has to stop attempting to dominate; a relationship between them can only work if they become equals.
Of course, Ruth could screw it up in an instant if she returns to her old habits. If she does that, then I’ll feel sad for her.
the bitter sting of rejection….there are no words.
MY FEELINGS
There’s a huge contrast between your comment and your avatar.
🙁
:__(
:_______(
I know that feel Ruth :c
Well done, mr Willis.
I’m kind of like “meh” on the whole “Ruth deserves it!” spree.
She has;
I mean the only reason Ruth was mean to Billy at the start seemed to be because Billy couldn’t obey simple rules and had to try to go all rebel without a cause. She seems like she genuinely looks out for the best interest of everyone on the floor as the RA (Albeit in a slightly verbally abusive / spunky manner).
I’d say she isn’t a bad girl, just misguided.
And you don’t think going as far as she did was a bit…disproportionate?
Let’s not forget that this started with Ruth literally dragging folks to the hall meeting. That strikes me as something worth getting upset about.
That was just being played for laughs though. It’s a comedy strip, you can’t take everything seriously.
It’s comedy for us, it’s tragedy for them.
Not at all. If you don’t show up for a meeting when you’re supposed to at my office, you’ll be lucky if a crazy redhead physically drags you to the room.
Rules are rules, break them and you can’t complain about any consequences, or about the person who has to dish the consequences out. That’s just fair.
That sounds rather authoritarian. You aren’t even allowed to touch people like that in reality, but this is a humor comic
Ruth, upstanding moral guardian, enforcing the rules.
Well, except for that time that she robbed Billie. Or that time she gave Billie beer. Or all those times that she emotionally abused Billie. Or that one time, where she physically, then sexually assaulted Billie.
Yup, Ruth is one by-the-book RA and a perfect example of why one should always follow the rules, no matter how brutally and arbitrarily enforced they are.
How is it.
That the thing I’m most annoyed about here.
Is that I suddenly empathise with Ruth.
Somewhat strongly.
I don’t want this.
Augh.
Suck it up hombres that’s the best attempt at a haiku you’re getting from me.
That’s kinda weak sir.
Haiku has a fixed structure.
You have made Ruth cry.
buzzkill: so a girl leaves a club, heading for her car……………all of a sudden someone from around a corner GRABS HER FROM BEHIND!!! While being groped, our lady screams, kicks, and is able to escape from her attacker. Our attacker is left alone, his feelings crushed. He goes home…………..sad that he did not “get the girl”, and calling himself “STUPID” the whole time. He’s even got a sad face 🙁
I read some of these comments and I think about what that girl in Stuebensville (sp?) has gone thru and wonder how many girls keep their mouths shut about stuff like this just cause of the “culture”.
Yeah, it’s a comic – yeah, it’s not serious, yeah the characters have “alt. history” – but still…………..
in this scenarion, a freshman told her RA she was emotionally traumatized and asked for help, and as a result, the University of Indiana RA slammed the freshman against the wall and sexually assaulted her. The freshman then had to push the RA away from her and run away screaming “NO”?
now exactly what part of that paragraph the the word “Cool” fit in, ladies and gentlemen – cause that’s not just “misguided” or “needs a little help”, thats STRAIGHT FUCKING CRIMINAL, yo. Straight up.
good morning 🙂
Word, man.
Poorly spelled, misplaced words.
You’re still right though.
it was 5:20 something in the morning when I started emotionally ranting on the internetz. in that scenario, I think typos are required lol
And it’d be even worse if that guy was a space alien!
Not the same
How is it not the same?
Because it’s not. It’s a false analogy I’d expect a child to be able to see through. Random sexual assault buy a stranger is not comparable to the complex existing relationship Billie and Ruth actually have.
I disagree entirely that it’s “criminal”. It’s stupid, it’s an invasion of personal space, but it was also an impulse, and one that she did not force once Billie pushed her away.
First off, Ruth didn’t pounce anyone from behind. Billie got in Ruth’s face, and Ruth pushed back. It was the wrong move, but it was an emotionally tense moment. Once she calmed down, the FEELS hit Ruth in the gut, and she went for the kiss on impulse. Billie didn’t kick or scream. She mindblanked, -reciprocated-, then realized this was NOT OKAY with her and pushed away. When she -did- push away, Ruth let her (remember that Ruth is absolutely able to impose herself on Billie if she wants to) and realized what she did was stupid.
I have to say the comparison you’re drawing isn’t remotely fair.
To be properly fair, you’re both right. What Ruth did is, from two of the three available perspectives here (Ruth’s, Billie’s, and the outside observer’s) describable as you have and as Gordon Blvd has. What we see next of Billie’s reaction is going to be the real driver of where they go from here.
sorry Heavesnrun………..but you are neglecting to rememer that “SLAM” on Thursday. That’s simple assualt right there. As for Friday’s kiss, not EVERY victim of a crime reacts with “lightning speed” nor are they, nor SHOULD they expected to.
……………….and like with some victims, maybe she was afraid to react in a way that she felt would further antagonize her attacker.
Reason I’m putting all this out there is cause I want ppl to know if yr ever in this sorta situation to tell someone……………..cause it’s STRAIGHT WRONG there’s no “cutesie-wootsie” about it in real life, is all…………….
I agree. To say that it was wanted because the victim didn’t fight back hard enough is…. kinda gross.
I didn’t say anything remotely like that. I said she didn’t kick or scream, as the girl in the analogy presented did. In the case Gordon described, a person was forcing himself and resisting the struggles of a person who was clearly and loudly expressing DO NOT WANT. In the comic, Ruth pushes somebody who had -grabbed- her, then calms down and kisses her on impulse. It doesn’t make it -okay-, but it does make it more ambiguous than Gordon’s analogy.
That slam was in response to Billie grabbing Ruth violently and shouting at her. -Billie- was the one that made it physical, Ruth responded, and then calmed down and changed tracks. I’m not saying this in the sense of “that makes everything okay”, But if you grab somebody by their shirt, and they push you against a wall, -you- would be the one that started it.
Others have already pointed out that Billie is the one who started the physical handling and invading the other’s personal space in this encounter, and Ruth just escalated it, but, beyond that, I think you’re forgetting Monday’s first panel. If we’d just transitioned from last panel Friday, where Billie is shocked and surprised by Ruth kissing her, to second panel Monday, where Billie is saying “NO” and pushing Ruth away, that’d be one thing. But there’s that first Monday panel in between there. The exact timing is indeterminate, because of the comic strip medium, but still, that’s not Billie “not reacting with lightning speed”… that’s Billie’s first reaction, after the initial shock and surprise, being to relax into the kiss. It’s only after that that she changes her mind and pushes Ruth away – and Ruth doesn’t seem to be resisting being pushed away – and stalks off, seemingly angry rather than frightened.
Now, I’m not saying that Ruth’s behaviour is okay, because it’s not, but it’s not so cut-and-dried as attacking an unwilling stranger from behind, by surprise, and forcing them to fight off an assault, kicking and screaming, either, and I think I want to see more of how Billie’s reacting to it before I decide how not-okay it is.
That warrants some serious brofistage.
That’s not even close to the same thing. Comparing this to rape attempt (by a man no less) is just stupid and insulting. You could make case for harassment, but it still doesn’t mean she has to be treated like some kind of monster.
As much as I agree that it is not the same thing AT ALL, I really think that you completely ruined any chance of your comment being valid at all by adding the ‘by a man no less’ statement. Women can be rapist just as easily as men. Men can rape other men. Women can rape men. Women can rape women. Rape is not gender exclusive. Not even a little bit.
This. I personally think a person’s gender is irrelevant to this kind of qustion. That said, relative strength and body mass -is- relevant, and guys trend larger and stronger than girls, whether it’s genetic or societal.
Oh, without a doubt. In our health class in high school, they said the statistic was something like 95% of all sexual assaults are done by men to women. I’m too lazy to look up the actual current numbers but I imagine it’s still much the same. Reasons aside, a rapist is way more likely to be male. But, like you said, in the instance of Somebody’s comment, gender is not a factor. A rape attempt by a man would be no less or more awful then a rape attempt by a woman.
So let me get this straight. Slamming someone up against a wall and forcing a kiss is considered by some of you to be “making a pass”?!? So what Ruth did is considered okay and the fact Billie utilized the “run away” defense for self protection makes everybody sympathize with Ruth?
What if Ruth had been a guy named Richard? Would that have been okay? Because where I’m from, slamming anyone against a wall and forcing sexual attention on them without permission is a move a Dick would make.
I’ll admit, what Ruth did was not okay, and I’m totally with Billie for pushing her away.
The fact that Ruth apparently is actually interested in Billie and evidently has some serious trouble expressing it does make me feel sorry for her, still.
That’s a really good point about gender.
Huh. It gets all the more twisted when you think back to all the times Ruth has assulted Billie. Would Billie want to throw down with a guy who acting like Ruth? Would said guy get away with it as long as Ruth did?
I feel sorry for Ruth but I don’t think Billie did anything wrong or unreasonable when rejecting her. That doesn’t stop me pitying Ruth though.
And maybe people would react different if Ruth was a guy but that’s a fault with them or the author, not the character : /
False equivalency. Ruth being Richard WOULD change things.
Maybe if this strip had happened back when their only interaction had been the stolen cheerleader uniform and Ruth had any sort of power over Billie, but the fact is that the power is all in Billie’s corner right now: she could report Ruth for the alcohol, the theft and destruction of her property, and the unwanted sexual advance.
Make Ruth into Richard, and the dynamic changes: Richard is physically stronger, capable of forcing Billie to stay against the wall, and Billie being sexually assaulted by a man would — sadly — be most commonly interpreted, by authority figures — as Billie’s fault, or else something she was making up to get attention.
Because gay is seen by far too many people as deviant and women, unlike men, are expected to be able to control their sexual impulses, an accusation that would bounce off Richard but damage Billie would, instead, DESTROY Ruth.
Double standards sometimes exist for a reason.
Bull. Absolute bull.
1. I don’t understand why you are assuming Billie is stronger than Ruth. There doesn’t seem to be even a shred of evidence of that, in fact, I would have assumed the opposite.
2. “All the power is in Billie’s corner.” Well, every single one of these things would STILL be in favor of Billie if it was “Richard.”
3. So we’re just going to assume that there was nothing she could do about it if it was a man, because everyone would assume she is lying? That sounds like exactly what has already goddamn happened when she tried to write about her abusive RA in the paper. I would say it is WORSE because it is ruth and not richard, simply because people are less likely to believe that a woman victimized another woman.
4 A. You are assuming that no one knows she’s gay; as far as I am aware, it has not come up yet, and could be common knowledge among the upper classmen.
B. You are also assuming that it would somehow be easy to accuse another woman of being a lesbian who sexually assaults people, and that it was also somehow easier than accusing a man of being hetero and sexually assaulting people.
I have never written a comment on this, or any, of Willis’ comic sites. I usually just let people say what they want to say. They all seem way more into these than I am. But there was no way I could let a comment as overwhelmingly stupid as this get the last word.
You might as well have said, “Sexual assault and verbal abuse is okay, so long as it’s a woman and you can blackmail her with a chance of success even when she’s in a position of power over you.”
Oh, and btw, if you paid attention, Ruth did not try very hard to keep her down after she yelled no. Which would lead me to believe that, since richard and Ruth are the same, except for gender, he wouldn’t have either, regardless of physical strength.
Comparing the interactions between Billie and Ruth, and Billie and “Richard” is specious at best. It’s a complete false equivalence that utterly disregards both context and the history between Ruth and Billie — a history that could not even have existed if Ruth had been a Richard.
“What if” comparisons only work if you change a single choice, not if you completely re-weave the tapestry of the narrative.
It depends on the authority figure, and what evidence Billie has kept, and how much time has passed. I don’t think a lot of time has passed, so there should be little questioning on why Billie would bring such a matter up.
American culture & legal system are, on average, in favor of a woman’s charge against a man for allegations of sexual harassment, especially with evidence. The fear of lawsuits is a factor, but so in the growing knowledge that such things are not a woman’s fault for somehow instigating.
This influences even authority figures who are sexist (both men & women) against women, and would like to blame a woman for somehow instigating the assault, mainly because of the legality of it.
However, there is still anti-women sexism.
I know one woman who has been on the receiving end of it, when a male co-worker rubbed his crotch against her, in front of witnesses.
After claiming it was a religious act, he was only sent home without pay for a week.
He was fired a few weeks later for punching another co-worker out.
People (both men & women) who work there still snip at her for daring to accuse him of inappropriate behavior and for making things hard for him. (‘He was such a nice guy!’) It should be also noted they are union, which also adds to the difficulty in terminating fellow employees.
Ruth has proved capable of kicking the crap out of Billie once with little effort. She’s perfectly capable of pinning her to the wall if she wants to. To assert that being a man of comparable stature (otherwise you’re not JUST changing gender which was the ENTIRE POINT of the exercise) and you really expect people to buy a lesbian sexual assaulter more than a heterosexual male sexual assaulter? Really? I think GalinKinlin got most of it, but seriously. Bullshit.
The power isn’t all on Billie’s side, either. Although any one of Ruth’s transgressions could get her in trouble, reporting anything that has since been resolved looks suspicious; why report a theft weeks after your possessions are returned? Similarly, any attempt to report Ruth’s alcohol consumption would be foiled by the fact that Billie drank with her and any investigation would probably reveal Billie’s frequent imbibements. And again, it was weeks ago–why report it now?
People know that Ruth and Billie have a problematic relationship, but Billie has less status and most of what she’d be complaining about happened weeks ago. Sure, they’re true and any investigation would probably reveal that, but Billie would undergo a significant character assassination in the process, considering she’s a poor student, an alcoholic, and something of a social pariah.
Even if her abusers actions have given her power in the form of blackmail, she’s still a victim here and certainly doesn’t have “all the power”.
Best way I can think of to describe the situation is: Have you ever had emotions spill over each other? They are not hard and set lines, more blurry. So sometimes when I have extreme anger I float into a peaceful state where I love everyone, but in reality I am doing something slightly out of my concious control. The act of releasing an emotion can be so powerful that you can actually lose control. Trust me, it is one of the worst things in the world.
Being able to understand the experience of losing control of ones’ self doesn’t change the fact that that’s *freaking* *assault*
You’re right. Billie absolutely assaulted Ruth when she grabbed her shirt.
Not that Ruth can play it like that, given her response.
Alright stop substituting her for a guy. This never would have happened with a man, because he would have been in trouble the first time Billie was hurt. The author wouldn’t have made her a consistent character.
And, GalinKilin, I think you need to take back the part about readers not paying attention. I looked back and that isn’t the case. She wasn’t expecting it and was easily pushed away…she did NOT try to hold her down. Holding an arm out as another person leaves is just a thing people do in fiction–sometimes even in real life. It doesn’t make them come back, but it’s a reaction.
Also, I don’t think anybody here has said that this was a “pass”, so where are those quotes coming from?
I has a sad. :<
Yep, Ruth. …Yep.
I’ve been thinking about Ruth’s flashback in It’s Walky, and thinking that the Ruth that’s shown there is a bit similar to the Ruth that’s shown here. (Well. Not a lot, but closer than regular Ruth from IW.) With this, I wonder if she’s going to come closer to becoming like IW-Ruth. (If they ever manage to do something together without uncertainty or hostility being exchanged, I wonder if Billie, the party-keen alcoholic, will be the one to introduce her to the concept of “one weekend with no thinking about consequences”. It’d do a nice contrast to the original IW, where Ruth was the one to introduce her to that…)
My two cents on all the haps: Billie made the right decision, but Ruth’s initiation was more desperate than cruel, which took the form of undue aggression. And their relationship up until that point had been far from simple or one-sided. Basically: Can’t be really summed up easily. Overdose of feels on the sides of the characters and the reader.
Ah, the sadness of a bullying, abusive asshole is like CANDY to me. Moooooore!
Seconded.
Two thoughts went through my head.
1. FEELS!
2. DAMN YOU WILLIS!
D: EVEN HER GLASSES LOOK SAD IN PANEL 4. SO MANY FEELS!
Sad glasses are the worst.
[Insert sad violin music here.]
I hate to say this, but…
no billie <3< Ruth? <:(
It wouldn’t work Ruth, Billie just isn’t the type who’d would be willing to tell her friends that she “fell down the stairs”.
And now Ruth is a sympathetic Character.
Welp, there goes my cheery mood.
I’ve read all of Shortpacked!, and I’ve been reading DoA since it began. I think this is the most emotionally powerful strip I’ve ever seen from you, David. Big kudos.
Ruth, maybe – and this is just conjecture – if you didn’t want to be rejected, being a domineering “I WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE FOR FUN AND PROFIT” type wasn’t the best of all possible first impressions.
Do you enjoy kicking puppies as well?
Only if they charge at me snarling and threatening to bite.
Which, y’know, isn’t far off from how Ruth dealt with Billie initially.
“You look so Ruthless! Time to make you toothless!”
Man, I never expected to feel bad for Ruth, of all people.
Curse you Willis, and your ability to make me feel things!
Leafs??? Ruth just became unrelatable and unlikeable….
Well I got my morning helping of schadenfreude. Thanks Willis!
My heart was just… Broken….
Dumbing of Age has passed up my previous favorite webcomic, Questionable Content. I still like htem both, but I now look forward to reading DoA more than QC. DoA rules.
And for some reason I was reminded of that old Canadian webcomic (well, it was set in Canada at least) which had a crossover with It’s Walky! I cannot recall what that comic was called.
“It’s Ceilidh!”
I see what you did there.
Avalon something or other. But I don’t think that was a full crossover so much as it was a Take That sort of thing?
Sounds like it.
Think it had a text summary ending where the female lead turned out to be lesbian? Felt a bit left field to me as I recall it.
Looking at all these comments and the reactions… looking at how my own feelings towards Ruth have gone from “God, why is this bongo getting screen time?” to, “Oh, man. I can relate to her, and feel bad.”
I wish David Willis was my Gamemaster. I bet being in a game run by him would be truly epic.
“You are attacked by five curvy nerd girls wearing glasses and wielding Transformers merch. What do?”
“I’d like to try to persuade them: ‘Don’t hit me with those! You’ll damage them!'”
“I attempt to save begbert from the peril!”
truly, Mr Willis is a master storyteller!
“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward. And in the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It’s the life in your years.”
Oh, you young people (real and imagined) and your horrible decisions! C’est la vie!
I was going to say, going with your heart is never stupid, then I saw the LEAFS NATION poster…nevermind.
signed, a Kings fan. 🙂
I feel for Ruth. I think her ‘bullying’ is a defense mechanism borne of past regular abuse or some single trauma. I remember an earlier strip when she was reading a letter and started to cry. She is carrying a lot of baggage and with Billie she decided to jump outside her defense mechanism and it seems to have backfired. I think those of you who are being all “who cares about the bongo” are being blind to her pain. She has exhibited a caring attitude at a few times in the past and I think that was a hint of the the person she really is.
Eh, she reaps what she sowed. I’m not surprised in the least nor am I getting any “feels” for her.
Now, back to Caramel Twins? :3
“Reap what you sow”
That you said that with a Joyce gravitar was slightly chilling.
Oh, dear.
This story is certainly going in an interesting new direction.
I have to wonder whether Ruth’s father hates her because she came out…
Her dad is dead
Sorry, typo:
Her dad is DEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAD
There was no typo that I can see.
Joebo, Pinja is missing an E.
*befuddled*
“But there ain’t no ‘E’ in ‘Pinja’…?”
Funny, while I’ve never really tried Ruth’s approach before, my romantic overtures still end the same way, though with about 10% less fetal position since I’m not that flexible.
You should try Yoga man. It helps you achieve the person “omg i’m a worthless person” fetal position.
Man, I’m really hoping that this isn’t the catalyst to start the parallels to Ruth’s story from Roomies. I don’t know if I could handle that.
Hey, it was worth a shot! 😀
This is the reason I like Willis. If this situation went any other way it would most likely not be a webcomic worthy of my interest.
That being said, I also think this earns a DAMN YOU, WILLIS?
Makes me wonder if Ruth has a Tie Domi Leaf’s Sweater in her closet.
Also, poor Ruth, she needs some huggles.
Now I feel even worse for Ruth. DAMN YOU WILLIS!
Ruth 🙁
It’s Ruth’s fault for being a Leafs fan
She needs to go talk to her.
So, all past history of Ruth and Billie aside, if a lovely red-head pushed me forcefully up against a wall and kissed me, I would’ve liked it. Even with the ‘slam’ factor. Maybe because of it? I am probably a bad person.
Nah. Nothing wrong with liking what you like as long as you aren’t hurting anyone … in ways they don’t approve of.
Why are they the Maple Leafs and not Maple Leaves?
They’re named after the symbol, not actual leaves themselves.
Wow Ruth, it sucks when you treat someone terribly who you’re attracted to because you’re unsure of how to show her how you feel and it blows up in your face when you make a move on her.
As someone who was at the Leafs game last night, I have to agree with you there, Ruth.
At least she knows what the stupid thing was. I sometimes get reactions like that without knowing what I did, so I’m left confused.
I repeat that all her problems are because she’s a Leafs fan. Cheering for them is like begging for the hurt.
In Billy’s defense: Being an asshole to someone is not a good way to get them to like you.
In Ruth’s defense: Imma guess she has problems and in the style of most sassy webcomic girls she takes care of them with violence and she has no idea what to fucking do because srsly guys she’s young and we young people are so fucking clueless.
We are impossibly, completely, hopelessly clueless.
Not that we should all deal with our cluelessness by treat people we have crushes on like a punching bag. That’s just not the way to go.
Also? AMEN to the sassy webcomic girl = violence thing. Early Faye from Questionable Content makes Ruth look mild in comparison and everybody still loved her.
Ag, them feels. Never thought I’d be feeling sorry for Ruth going into this comic.
Read that as “Silver, them feels.” .. Too much chem.
Alright, Billie, your attack was unconventional, but it’s hard I argue with the results. Your opponent is down, now deliver the finishing blow!
I am conflicted about this turn of events. On the one hand, Billie/Ruth is an enjoyable ship. On the other hand, forcing yourself on someone, Ruth? Bad idea, full stop. On the other other hand, I really hope the Billie/Ruth ship sails into happier ship-bearing waters.
I will agree with this. You sir, win a cookie.
I’m not trying to repeat what I posted in the last strip, so if you want to know, that’s where it is. The comment still stands.
You guys can feel sad about this, but I think it’s awesome.
Although the proud Keenspot tradition of heavyhanded lesbian relationships kind of took a kick in the gnads.
*references to Roomies ahead*
*I know they don’t have an impact on the plot, but shoosh*
If we have to watch Ruth die again in a similar situation I’m not sure if I can handle that emotional punch to the gut. I will start sobbing loudly in public. It will not be good.
And you call yourself an E-“man!” ::: emoticon for disgust goes here :::
I really hope this ship doesn’t sail, Willis. At least without a ton of stuff getting cleared out. Otherwise you are excusing abusive behavior just because you have a crush on someone. Yes, Ruth has problems and baggage and some kindness in her. That in no way excuses her actions, and the attitudes from these comments make it pretty clear same-sex abusive relationships are not taken seriously.
Ruth?! Showing EMOTIONS?! The last time this happened…
IF YOU KILL RUTH AGAIN, I WILL BURN YOUR HOT SHOT SHRINE.
D—-> A deep sadness settles over me
I don’t blame her, everyone secretly wants a piece of that ass
Aw Billie dodged the 69 and the 16.5 and broke Ruth