I don’t think she ever would (openness and honesty about sex are sorta her whole thing), but Roz has the opportunity here to fill Joyce’s head with a bunch of hilarious misconceptions about what Joe’s into in bed.
“Oh yeah, he loves being spanked with a My Little Pony, preferably Fluttershy, though Rarity will do in a pinch. And don’t forget to fill your socks with banana pudding, he’ll want a snack break halfway through.”
Agreed, it would be against her nature, plus judging by her last interaction with Joe, she seems to actually be pretty encouraging to Joe and wanting this to work out for him. All things considered, she seems genuinely fairly fond of Joe.
I’m halfway expecting Joyce to ask Roz to attend Joe-yce’s first sex session to provide guidance. After all, Dorothy provided how-to-do-masturbation guidance for Joyce’s first time. Why shouldn’t Joyce think of asking Roz for how-to-bang-Joe guidance for her first time? 😀
Lev is a Hebrew name meaning “heart”. Because of course Joe is secretly full of heart. I’m sure he rarely gives people his middle name, but has given it to Joyce.
Is Carnal Congress like regular Congress but they have sex? like, in Congress? like all the time?? Or are they like regular Congress, but they only regulate sex?
If only it could have been there with Becky! That would have been poggers.
I’m pretty sure no one else uses that slang, which means that it’s all mine now!!
“Being embarrassed at having seen someone you’re currently talking to naked” isn’t reliant on sexual attraction, especially for someone raised as Joyce was.
I am kind of warming to her a bit more. I have never hated her like many do, but she’s a lot more likable when she’s staying in her lane, and I am kind of getting that vibe from panel 2.
I’m not sure it’s so much staying in her lane so much as she’s had the previous conversation with Joe and knows full well what lane Joyce is aiming for and will accept no detours.
I’m thinking Panel 2 is more along the lines of “I know this conversation with Joyce will be five different kinds of unintended awful coming out of her mouth simultaneously, so I’m vetoing that.”
Exactly. “I’m neither motivated nor qualified to guide her through that minefield. But in sexuality, I am definitely both. I’m gonna wingmate for this wingnut.”
Honestly I love Joyce completely disregarding felling jealous of Roz and go ask her for tips instead. Roz is basically this couple sex guru at this point.
I feel– okay, I know I’m not normal about this shit, but like– I feel like if you had someone like this who you thought would actually answer you and it wouldn’t suck for them and your partner, this seems like such a natural thing to do. I mean Joyce is doing it super awkwardly, but like. Yeah! That shit seems interesting! Your partner has a history, that history seems interesting! I want to know the versions of my partner I didn’t get to see!
That said it’s a funny mirror to Becky a second ago where Becky is jealous over like nothing and Joyce is not jealous over stuff base monogamous culture seems to freak out about a lot. More variations on a theme is kind of cool, and continues to be stuff that Willis is good at and I enjoy watching him do.
Also I cannot possibly be the only person who upon deciding I was interested in trying out sex at some point extensively googled detailed descriptions of what sex felt like for other women. (And also men but for some reason men on the internet are allergic to describing it in extensive detail except for like that one guy on Reddit. Shout out to that one guy on Reddit who also described what having a dick is like in normal life. You’re a real one.)
I don’t know why the comments section is so fucking determined to make it weird that Joyce is investigating her own sexuality and giving clear signals to Joe that she’s interested. Joe is a grown man who can bring it up if it’s bugging him.
I just assume it’s because 3/4 of the comments section has worked themselves into a froth over the JoycexDorothy ship and are looking for any reason at all to hope that JoycexJoe crashes and burns in the near term. (see also the “Joyce obviously being embarrassed at admitting she watched a sex tape of someone” turning into “barely-repressed bisexuality” in the thread above)
But also it’s a dramatic comic strip. When a conflict is obviously being set up, you don’t need ulterior motives to expect it to turn into an actual conflict.
Expecting drama/conflict isn’t what I’m talking about though. I’m talking about people pretending there’s anything even a little bit verging on consent issues whenever characters in a relationship flirt or talk a little smutty with each other.
Becky was treated like a rapist for trying to get Dina horny (because she’s braindifferent), and then Dina was immediately treated the same for getting horny and letting her girlfriend know it. It’s definitely a recurring problem in this comments section, and it would be nice if people would knock it the fuck off.
Okay, but that’s entirely different than how I read Nono’s post and I didn’t even get the change in subject from yours.
They’re heading into a conflict over Joyce’s assumptions about Joe’s eagerness to have sex and talking about that would be good. That’s how I read the suggestion, not “Roz needs to tell Joyce not to rape Joe” or something.
Even with the help of the latest image-to-video AIs, it would take a while for Willis to create this video. Plus there’s that whole developing ethical swampland, regarding such usage.
Question: is Joyce the sort of person who would ask Roz to “referee” the sexual congress between her (Joyce) and Joseph Lev Rosenthal, so as to ensure that she (Joyce) is doing it “correctly”?
further question: would Joyce want to get a good grade at sex, something that is normal to want and possible to achieve?
Or like one of those affirming pun stickers like you get at the dentists? (But obviously appropriately themed instead of like ‘seal of approval’ or whatever.)
She was probably noticing many things.
Besides the queerness, I also think Joyce noticing Roz’s reactions is meaningful in that she’s seeing a woman enjoy pleasure from sex, and that’s not something that has been emphasized to her.
Eh, I’m hit-or-miss with liking what Roz is doing here-much depends on what she says, or doesn’t say, about Joe and sex-with-Joe.
But her answer on trans folks stuff, I’m not too fond of. People have said ‘she’s staying in her lane, and that’s good’, and I don’t disagree, *but* what she could also have said was, “Nope…I’m not the person you should be talking to about this, but have you considered looking at or speaking to…” rather than just a flat shut-down.
I can’t *blame* Roz for getting some enjoyment out of Joyce’s embarrassment, considering their history…but she’s not quite measuring up to her own talk on Joyce’s questions about trans folks. Though having said that, it’s been awhile since I read those strips, so I could be misremembering and she was always up-front with her priority being fucking with fundies (and recovering-fundies).
Considering Joyce only ever talks to Roz when she has a question that she needs answered I feel like Roz has the right to just shut her down when she doesn’t want to answer a Joyce Question.
I think it is mostly left unsaid, that Roz is tacitly saying she’s not the one to go to for that question. Like even if she’s going to ask a cis person, it’d make way more sense to go to Leslie.
I’m confused. Is Joyce supposed to go pester a trans person with these questions? I’ve always heard that that’s even worse.
Roz has set herself up as a resource for sexuality and gender. I honestly don’t understand why Roz DOESN’T at least want to hear Joyce’s questions. At worst, she would get to educate Joyce and dunk on her with her own (sometimes performative, sometimes not) allyship. At best, she purely gets to educate Joyce. I’m honestly struggling to grasp why Roz said “No.” it almost feels out of character for her.
I agree. I wouldn’t blame anyone for not wanting to engage that conversation if they aren’t equipped for it, but having that conversation (even if it’s awkward or just involves sending some links for blogs or videos to watch) can be significant.
I’m trans now, but when I was 18 I was reading Germaine Greer and had some ill-informed opinions, and it was only that a (cis) friend was open to talking to me about it which led to making other friends who were better informed and being given more to read.
To be clear, that didn’t make me trans. It was transphobes who assumed I was “male” and yelling at me for using the women’s toilet that gave me gender euphoria that made me realise I’m not a woman.
I only ‘blame’ Roz for not wanting to engage to the extent of what she says and thinks about herself, and I cop up front that that’s an ambiguous thing and my memory could be off about it.
Roz has plenty of reasons not to want such a conversation with Joyce. For starters, I think the main reason Joyce is approaching her at all (aside from repressest interest in/fascination with Roz sexually) is because she, Joyce, associates trans with an explicitly sexual matter. It’s about fucking, and Roz is the Expert on Fucking in her cohort. Which indicates some significant bad ideas about transgender folks, if it means their identity is some sort of smutty kink thing to her…but goodness knows I could be wrong about all of that too.
I suppose, when it comes down to it? Roz is clearly willing to talk to Joyce and fuck with her a bit-as evidenced by, y’know, most of the panels in the strip. But a serious, important, *useful* question that doesn’t actually require Roz to go outside her lane? (‘I’m not the person to ask about this, but have you considered…’) She’s apparently not willing to do that.
I don’t think it’s about staying in her lane. I think she (correctly) understood that Joyce was going to be cringe, and she didn’t want to deal with it. And she’s not obligated to do so. Presumably if she says “no,” Joyce will ask someone else.
Again, I think this makes the third or fourth time?, it’s not about obligation. Roz isn’t obliged to help Joyce or to answer her questions, even if they were fully between the yellow lines of her particular lane. I think you may be on to something on the ‘didn’t want to deal with it’ angle, though.
Which is fine in and of itself, but if you’re going to lament the cringe of fundies and recovering fundies, is it really the thing to *also*, when they ask a self-improving question, to say, “Nope.”?
Joyce’s heart is in the right place. She genuinely does want to improve and treat the people in her life well. However, the improvement process involves a lot of growing pains and requires patience and empathy for those helping her. Roz doesn’t want to be that person for this particular issue.
It’s actually normal and fine if Roz doesn’t answer Joyce’s Gender Questions™, and equally fine for her not to point Joyce to someone who will. There’s not even a little bit of a problem with any of it
Oh PLEASE Willis, you’ve GOTTA make the next thing you draw on your NSFW Patreon Joyce watching that video of Joe and Roz – you’re killing us over here!
I’m not. Roz isn’t Joyce’s friend, or really friends with any of the main cast. Narratively speaking, Willis uses her as a foil to the main cast. She’s there to demonstrate Robin’s hypocrisy, or Mary’s vileness, or Joyce’s naivete, or Dorothy’s overbearing control. So she’s always at odds with them, but never a villain.
And Joyce and Roz’s relationship is pretty full of Roz having disgust for Joyce for parroting “fundie shit.” The last time Joyce asked Roz questions like this, she ended up accidently being offensive by asking how she became so shameless. 100%, Roz is shutting down any questions about trans folk because she gets enough transphobic BS from Mary and doesn’t want to deal with wading through Joyce’s unintentionally offensive questions.
And, I mean, you know they’d be offensive questions, because “The exact same way you treat cis people” hasn’t jumped out to her as answer #1.
I mean yeah, but Roz also offered advice to Joyce after the latter’s near-rape and Roz wasn’t even privy to what happened, she simply correctly inferred based very little information. And this was right after Joyce called her a slut.
“Roz offers Joyce correct sex education despite their animosity, because Roz believes in education more than she believes in being petty” was her established norm.
I wouldn’t consider the basic topic of transgender people to be “sex education.” Like, if you’re saying you’d expect Roz to feel up to teaching Joyce about transgender people because she offers people sex education… no?
Obviously Roz doesn’t have to if Roz doesn’t want to, but she did claim to be ready to teach the gender studies class, despite that not being “sex education”, so she’s a reasonable person to go to.
And advice after a near-rape isn’t really what we’d normally consider sex education either.
Hm, advice around sexual assault has been part of sex ed that I’ve had or been around as an adult. My issue my comment was addressing was with Derek’s words more than Roz either way. I’m not sure how much transgender people were part of the imagined gender study syllabus at the time Roz was making claims, and if she had taught it to the extent Leslie did, apparently this is where Joyce’s knowledge levels would have ended up.
In addition to any feelings about Joyce and her potential questions, Roz also probably (correctly) feels that she isn’t qualified to give any answers on that front and doesn’t want to speak for transgender people. Much the same as Ethan tried to do, but much more decisively. Educating is one thing when you’re the (s)expert, but quite different when it’s outside your field.
“Roz also probably (correctly) feels that she isn’t qualified to give any answers on that front and doesn’t want to speak for transgender people.”
HA!
I am highly doubting this.
Roz feeling she’s unqualified on a subject, especially when compared to Joyce? Doubt.
Remember this is the same person who once said she’s qualified to TEACH a gender studies class, moreso than their lesbian teacher.
Roz’s #1 trait is that she’s confident she knows all there is to know about sex and sexuality, but this is amplified by a thousand when she compares herself to Joyce.
If you want to be less charitable to Roz, you could even say that it’s a topic she can’t speak with as much authority on, and she wants to be seen as an authority or expert, so she doesn’t dive into things she feels might threaten that.
Also, just, might not have the tolerance for the kind of questions she’d expect from Joyce when she was just walking down the hall and ran into her.
Roz knows (or acts like she knows) a lot about sex and ethical fuckism. I don’t think we have any evidence she’s equally informed about Gender Stuff™, so her flat refusal to engage that topic seems very fair.
Of course, but that’s at least a claim that she thinks she’s informed enough about Gender Stuff™ to teach others.
To be fair, she probably gained a bit of humility from that class.
Oh, no, Woof McGee. The Ship ™ is not over, not by any stretch of the imagination. (and how well can we stretch our imaginations? olympically, thankyouverymuch). In the Multiverse, there is a world in which Joyce requires Dorothy to guide Joyce and Joe through first time sex. In this world, perhaps, Roz recommends her sex tape or perhaps another as such a guide.
That’s a nice pat answer, but it doesn’t really cover everything. Especially in a situation like she is (or really was) in with Carla.
She’d been treating Carla normal, because she didn’t know and Carla was wary of her because she’d had a fundie upbringing. Would there be a reasonable way to convey “I know now and I’m fine with it.”?
And of course differently with Jocelyn when she learns about that, since there she’ll need to actively support her, but also change how she treats her.
“I don’t know anything about your sexual congress with him. Now, I have an itemized list of questions. First is, at 00:01:17 in the video, what were you doing with your left hand? It was off-camera and clearly having an effect.”
Roz. Roz. why “nope”? Is it so hard to say “treat them as you would treat any other person. Just go with any requests regarding pronouns and such.” Would that be so bad? We aren’t fucking fragile, we just don’t want to be treated like shit.
This is no sort of rebuttal, I’m gonna say that up front.
Your comment makes me think, if we’re meant to be cool and treat trans people like cis people (and we are, natch), is there a generally agreed-on level of enthusiasm we should have if our trans friend comes out to us? Like, is “Oh, really? Neat.” too neutral? Cuz that’s how I’d react to a friend revealing they were really good at the guitar, or they voiced a character in a video game I was playing.
I go with a casual sounding response but where I am pretty obviously trying to hold back my enthusiasm.
Varies on the person and all that, but I think something along the lines of “That’s awesome” or “I’m so happy for you” and “Thanks for telling me” (if relevant) would generally be acceptable.
I think that works to an extent but obviously there are simply some ways in which you do have to approach things differently. While you do respect trans people like any other person you also kind of have to change your diction and mindfullness. It’s helpful if you’re the kinda person who does that already tho.
If we’re being honest here, actively trying to NOT think about it is paradoxical?
If I tell someone not to think of a Pink Elephant, what’s the first thing they automatically think of?
How is it really any different to be asked not to think of someone’s gender, race, sexual orientation, disability etc?
There’s this common mistake that JUST being conscious of these things at all period automatically constitutes racism, queerphobia, impoliteness etc.
They may not define us, but they still affect us in important ways that can’t be ignored, for instance IRL I have severe vocal difficulties that make me practically mute, obviously I want my friends to be conscious of that during voice calls so that they can look at my typed messages and I can still be part of the conversation ^^
Trans people do more than just exist, being aware of how this often affects the way we have to live and do things both personally and in society at large is necessary for us to really be welcome and more included in a society largely build for the cis straight white Christian Everyman.
If Joyce is compelled to simply revolve her routine around just avoiding any and all encounters with Carla or any trans folk period, out of fear of offense, this pattern that unfortunately manifests itself as groups of people and systems at large in our society, in the end that’s still being part of the problem.
If Joyce is compelled out of fear of offense to avoid Carla or any other trans person, when cis white straight people at large wind up revolving their lives around minimizing interaction with us and reminders of human differences because of fear and ignorance, that literally means we’re marginalized.
“This is what the Sunken Place means. No matter how hard we scream, The System silences us.”
It just occurred to me.
Joyce asked a few people on how to approach this, but literally everyone is saying not to address it or that they don’t have the right information.
She asked Ethan. He said he wasn’t an expert (then gave her advice thinking she meant Jocelyne.)
She asked Sarah. Who said she just keeps her head down.
She’s asking Roz here, who just straight up denies addressing the issue.
I wonder if this is going to become a trend where people don’t educate themselves for fear of looking like assholes, but it just sorta pervades this air of other-ness that doesn’t help anyone who identifies as trans.
That was somewhat my experience. At a certain point of having bad faith arguments I think most people just get exasperated.and exhausted so they don’t wanna humor every single person who doesn’t understand how to act. Tbf the kinds of questions I was asking were probably not very sensitive in retrospect. I was often told to read up on it but I’ll be honest I just don’t like reading books.
I take Roz here less not wanted to educate herself and more that she doesn’t wanna have this very complicated topic of conversation with Joyce right at this very moment out of nowhere.
(Scrolls past comment section transly) I aint give a damn bout all that I’m here to applaud joyce for, in my opinion, being A Very Brave Young Lady. She had to say the word sex!!! LOUD!! With her own desires attached to them!!!! She’s doing a great job. She’ll get that slipshine yet.
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mutual carnal congress sounds like something Roz would be a shoo-in for in Robin’s place
I endorse Joyce for mutual carnal congress! Get out the vote!
P.S. pardon my chonky fingers’ accidental report,
I don’t think she ever would (openness and honesty about sex are sorta her whole thing), but Roz has the opportunity here to fill Joyce’s head with a bunch of hilarious misconceptions about what Joe’s into in bed.
“Oh yeah, he loves being spanked with a My Little Pony, preferably Fluttershy, though Rarity will do in a pinch. And don’t forget to fill your socks with banana pudding, he’ll want a snack break halfway through.”
“He’s also really into being called ‘Dorothy’ during sex.”
winner winner chicken…
uh
chicken… choker?
I admit it, Yumi. I laughed.
Heath Ledger Joker clapping.gif
Be even funnier if it’s the truth but Joyce assumes Roz is messing with her.
“He’s into pegging, find a strap-on.”
“Oh, right! I think I’m like a size six.”
“Hah?!”
Agreed, it would be against her nature, plus judging by her last interaction with Joe, she seems to actually be pretty encouraging to Joe and wanting this to work out for him. All things considered, she seems genuinely fairly fond of Joe.
So now I think Roz like, immediately clocked Joe defensive ‘sex monster’ obfuscation for what it was
Damn rarity? That sounds more like pegging
Its like watching a deer walk into a lions mouth
The deer is Joe?
The deer is Joyce, and the lion’s mouth is “talking about sex with Roz”.
ain’t nothin wrong with sex with Roz
This will go horribly right or horribly wrong.
In both cases it will be horrible.
Which is horribly great!
I’m halfway expecting Joyce to ask Roz to attend Joe-yce’s first sex session to provide guidance. After all, Dorothy provided how-to-do-masturbation guidance for Joyce’s first time. Why shouldn’t Joyce think of asking Roz for how-to-bang-Joe guidance for her first time? 😀
His middle name is Lev?
It’s a Hebrew name, meaning “heart” or “emotional” ^^
Joseph “Feelings” Rosenthal
It’s a Russian cognate of Leo. Probably via Yiddish. Might be a grandfather’s name or something.
Lev is a Hebrew name meaning “heart”. Because of course Joe is secretly full of heart. I’m sure he rarely gives people his middle name, but has given it to Joyce.
So a bit of synchronicity with Rabbi Loew of Prague, whose name did mean lion.
Along with his heart.
I wonder if Roz knew that. It is in some cases a certain intimacy, and that is a Joyce goal.
It’s sick as fuck honestly
Carnal Congress — cuz they be moving north south east and west all over each other XD
That would be a carnal compass. Which they shouldn’t need; Joe points north at all times. xD
Is Carnal Congress like regular Congress but they have sex? like, in Congress? like all the time?? Or are they like regular Congress, but they only regulate sex?
Whichever way you define it, it’s got to be an improvement over regular Congress.
It has to be, figuring that in carnal congress all parties involved want to be there and accomplish something.
No, carnal here means meat. It’s a Congress that specializes in pork barrels.
So, yes, like regular Congress.
And the filibuster is bad here too
“First you should start with the Representatives position. After a minute or two, then switch to the Senators position.”
Carnal cardinals?
Your bi is showing again, Joyce
If only it could have been there with Becky! That would have been poggers.
I’m pretty sure no one else uses that slang, which means that it’s all mine now!!
Becky doesn’t wear glasses.
but imagine if Dorothy was into the idea of sharing Joyce and Joe… ~<3
The problem with Becky is that Joyce saw her as family, and you don’t (literally) eff with family.
Those are practically lesbian flag colors on her puffy vest there
In what reality is Joyce a lesbian though? Not this one, with her exclusively male attraction-blushies.
Becky once pointed out that Joyce’s wardrobe gives a lot of false positives.
That’s why it’s funny. 🙂
Her denial sure does seem to be centered on the female party, doesn’t it.
I mean, that *is* the awkward part in this situation.
Awkward for whom?
“Being embarrassed at having seen someone you’re currently talking to naked” isn’t reliant on sexual attraction, especially for someone raised as Joyce was.
This, this right here.
Especially when that naked was in a sexual context, but Joyce would be embarrassed to even walk in on someone changing.
Came here to say this. She’s on the verge of exploding with barely-repressed bisexuality.
What in this scene makes you think that? I really don’t see it.
Shippers don’t take things like “context” or “facts” into account, you know that.
“Context”? “Facts”? What are these words?
Most people would not be focused on the appearance of and noises made by the participant that they *aren’t* attracted to.
She is peculiarly conscious of the noises *Roz* made.
Where was Roz when I needed her
With the floating timeline, the answer keeps changing.
Where was Roz when the Westfold fell? Where was Roz when Joyce’s enemies closed in around her?
I am kind of warming to her a bit more. I have never hated her like many do, but she’s a lot more likable when she’s staying in her lane, and I am kind of getting that vibe from panel 2.
I’m not sure it’s so much staying in her lane so much as she’s had the previous conversation with Joe and knows full well what lane Joyce is aiming for and will accept no detours.
I’m thinking Panel 2 is more along the lines of “I know this conversation with Joyce will be five different kinds of unintended awful coming out of her mouth simultaneously, so I’m vetoing that.”
Exactly. “I’m neither motivated nor qualified to guide her through that minefield. But in sexuality, I am definitely both. I’m gonna wingmate for this wingnut.”
Honestly I love Joyce completely disregarding felling jealous of Roz and go ask her for tips instead. Roz is basically this couple sex guru at this point.
I mean her only other option was what, Malaya?
Well, a lot of people would just not ask people their partner has previously had sex with about it.
Joe has banged plenty more than those two, but yeah, she wouldn’t really know anyone else that added to his tally list, I guess.
Of those two, Roz is certainly the better option.
She’s still an option for that first question tho
I’m hoping Joyce thinks of asking Leslie.
She could ask Jennifer for advice! That couldn’t possibly go wrong!
The idea that Joyce would be jealous of Roz about this is so weird to me.
Yeah that’s why I love it, I can think of many other writers that would jumped on that for cheap drama.
I feel– okay, I know I’m not normal about this shit, but like– I feel like if you had someone like this who you thought would actually answer you and it wouldn’t suck for them and your partner, this seems like such a natural thing to do. I mean Joyce is doing it super awkwardly, but like. Yeah! That shit seems interesting! Your partner has a history, that history seems interesting! I want to know the versions of my partner I didn’t get to see!
That said it’s a funny mirror to Becky a second ago where Becky is jealous over like nothing and Joyce is not jealous over stuff base monogamous culture seems to freak out about a lot. More variations on a theme is kind of cool, and continues to be stuff that Willis is good at and I enjoy watching him do.
Also I cannot possibly be the only person who upon deciding I was interested in trying out sex at some point extensively googled detailed descriptions of what sex felt like for other women. (And also men but for some reason men on the internet are allergic to describing it in extensive detail except for like that one guy on Reddit. Shout out to that one guy on Reddit who also described what having a dick is like in normal life. You’re a real one.)
That blush at the final panel, from Joyce. 😳😳
That hand placement in the first panel, from Joyce.
I didn’t notice the subconscious boob-grab at first! Thanks for pointing it out!
Honestly I hope one of the lessons Roz drills into Joyce is ‘have you considered asking if Joe wants to have sex yet’?
Unlikely, but hey.
Very likely. Roz knows how consent works and knows that Joe is far from enthusiastic on the subject.
I don’t know why the comments section is so fucking determined to make it weird that Joyce is investigating her own sexuality and giving clear signals to Joe that she’s interested. Joe is a grown man who can bring it up if it’s bugging him.
Probably because that signalling is not eliciting an answer.
I just assume it’s because 3/4 of the comments section has worked themselves into a froth over the JoycexDorothy ship and are looking for any reason at all to hope that JoycexJoe crashes and burns in the near term. (see also the “Joyce obviously being embarrassed at admitting she watched a sex tape of someone” turning into “barely-repressed bisexuality” in the thread above)
But also it’s a dramatic comic strip. When a conflict is obviously being set up, you don’t need ulterior motives to expect it to turn into an actual conflict.
Expecting drama/conflict isn’t what I’m talking about though. I’m talking about people pretending there’s anything even a little bit verging on consent issues whenever characters in a relationship flirt or talk a little smutty with each other.
Becky was treated like a rapist for trying to get Dina horny (because she’s braindifferent), and then Dina was immediately treated the same for getting horny and letting her girlfriend know it. It’s definitely a recurring problem in this comments section, and it would be nice if people would knock it the fuck off.
Yeah absolutely that kind of thing is what I was talking about.
Okay, but that’s entirely different than how I read Nono’s post and I didn’t even get the change in subject from yours.
They’re heading into a conflict over Joyce’s assumptions about Joe’s eagerness to have sex and talking about that would be good. That’s how I read the suggestion, not “Roz needs to tell Joyce not to rape Joe” or something.
Okie doke!
happy birthday to Dina and Sarah!!! ^^
also 7th anniversary of when I started reading Dumbing of Age
really i wish i could at least give Dina something but Dinosaur Cousin Squad isn’t even ready for beta yet ;-;
Oh sure, Willis says that there is ample footage but we can see it.
Use your imagination’s eye
Of course we can. It’s here – https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/scrootoob/
Even with the help of the latest image-to-video AIs, it would take a while for Willis to create this video. Plus there’s that whole developing ethical swampland, regarding such usage.
I bet she makes guinea pig noises.
WEEEEP weep weep weepweepweep weeeeep…
dammit now i wish i could see it for reals LOL
Roz has a specific domain of knowledge and she’s sticking to it I see.
Roz is just about the only living person in the strip who’s direct about things, and I feel like she doesn’t get enough credit for that.
And Joyce has definitely watched it.
We have seen her watching it even.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/scrootoob/
Carnal CONGRESS? No thanks, that gets SUPER weird about drawing boundaries!
My favorite vid is titled “Crossing the Aisle.”
(i saw it on SinNN)
Question: is Joyce the sort of person who would ask Roz to “referee” the sexual congress between her (Joyce) and Joseph Lev Rosenthal, so as to ensure that she (Joyce) is doing it “correctly”?
further question: would Joyce want to get a good grade at sex, something that is normal to want and possible to achieve?
Imagining aftercare in the form of a sticker that says “Good job!” (because a gold star feels kind of weird in this case).
I don’t know, she seems quite slim.
Or like one of those affirming pun stickers like you get at the dentists? (But obviously appropriately themed instead of like ‘seal of approval’ or whatever.)
Looking forward to Joyce asking Leslie – in class – about class extra credit for new sexual experiences.
So, what IS the question
making notice of her noises? and not of Joseph Levitation Rosenthal?
She was probably noticing many things.
Besides the queerness, I also think Joyce noticing Roz’s reactions is meaningful in that she’s seeing a woman enjoy pleasure from sex, and that’s not something that has been emphasized to her.
Oh she does like the noises…
Women usually make more and better noises during sex. I thought that was universally acknowledged.
Suuuuure, Joyce. We believe you.
Roz is definitely having some fun here after all the grief Joyce gave her last semester but I think she’ll be helpful.
So Joyce was paying attention to Roz in that video, then lol
Roz just comfortably and smoothly staying in her lane in panel 2.
More people should be able to deftly navigate when someone wants them to be their personal google and just saying “Nope” and leaving it at that.
“I’m neither an expert on that topic nor inclined to guide you through that minefield, given your propensity to wander off in random directions.”
Eh, I’m hit-or-miss with liking what Roz is doing here-much depends on what she says, or doesn’t say, about Joe and sex-with-Joe.
But her answer on trans folks stuff, I’m not too fond of. People have said ‘she’s staying in her lane, and that’s good’, and I don’t disagree, *but* what she could also have said was, “Nope…I’m not the person you should be talking to about this, but have you considered looking at or speaking to…” rather than just a flat shut-down.
I can’t *blame* Roz for getting some enjoyment out of Joyce’s embarrassment, considering their history…but she’s not quite measuring up to her own talk on Joyce’s questions about trans folks. Though having said that, it’s been awhile since I read those strips, so I could be misremembering and she was always up-front with her priority being fucking with fundies (and recovering-fundies).
Considering Joyce only ever talks to Roz when she has a question that she needs answered I feel like Roz has the right to just shut her down when she doesn’t want to answer a Joyce Question.
Roz always has that right. It’s not about whether or not she has the right, that’s immutable.
I think it is mostly left unsaid, that Roz is tacitly saying she’s not the one to go to for that question. Like even if she’s going to ask a cis person, it’d make way more sense to go to Leslie.
Roz is one for leaving things unsaid?
I’m confused. Is Joyce supposed to go pester a trans person with these questions? I’ve always heard that that’s even worse.
Roz has set herself up as a resource for sexuality and gender. I honestly don’t understand why Roz DOESN’T at least want to hear Joyce’s questions. At worst, she would get to educate Joyce and dunk on her with her own (sometimes performative, sometimes not) allyship. At best, she purely gets to educate Joyce. I’m honestly struggling to grasp why Roz said “No.” it almost feels out of character for her.
I agree. I wouldn’t blame anyone for not wanting to engage that conversation if they aren’t equipped for it, but having that conversation (even if it’s awkward or just involves sending some links for blogs or videos to watch) can be significant.
I’m trans now, but when I was 18 I was reading Germaine Greer and had some ill-informed opinions, and it was only that a (cis) friend was open to talking to me about it which led to making other friends who were better informed and being given more to read.
To be clear, that didn’t make me trans. It was transphobes who assumed I was “male” and yelling at me for using the women’s toilet that gave me gender euphoria that made me realise I’m not a woman.
I only ‘blame’ Roz for not wanting to engage to the extent of what she says and thinks about herself, and I cop up front that that’s an ambiguous thing and my memory could be off about it.
Roz has plenty of reasons not to want such a conversation with Joyce. For starters, I think the main reason Joyce is approaching her at all (aside from repressest interest in/fascination with Roz sexually) is because she, Joyce, associates trans with an explicitly sexual matter. It’s about fucking, and Roz is the Expert on Fucking in her cohort. Which indicates some significant bad ideas about transgender folks, if it means their identity is some sort of smutty kink thing to her…but goodness knows I could be wrong about all of that too.
I suppose, when it comes down to it? Roz is clearly willing to talk to Joyce and fuck with her a bit-as evidenced by, y’know, most of the panels in the strip. But a serious, important, *useful* question that doesn’t actually require Roz to go outside her lane? (‘I’m not the person to ask about this, but have you considered…’) She’s apparently not willing to do that.
I don’t think it’s about staying in her lane. I think she (correctly) understood that Joyce was going to be cringe, and she didn’t want to deal with it. And she’s not obligated to do so. Presumably if she says “no,” Joyce will ask someone else.
Again, I think this makes the third or fourth time?, it’s not about obligation. Roz isn’t obliged to help Joyce or to answer her questions, even if they were fully between the yellow lines of her particular lane. I think you may be on to something on the ‘didn’t want to deal with it’ angle, though.
Which is fine in and of itself, but if you’re going to lament the cringe of fundies and recovering fundies, is it really the thing to *also*, when they ask a self-improving question, to say, “Nope.”?
Joyce’s heart is in the right place. She genuinely does want to improve and treat the people in her life well. However, the improvement process involves a lot of growing pains and requires patience and empathy for those helping her. Roz doesn’t want to be that person for this particular issue.
It’s actually normal and fine if Roz doesn’t answer Joyce’s Gender Questions™, and equally fine for her not to point Joyce to someone who will. There’s not even a little bit of a problem with any of it
I said; Sex with Zap!
wait a minute
“Mutual carnal congress with some douchebag” would also have been valid.
Oh PLEASE Willis, you’ve GOTTA make the next thing you draw on your NSFW Patreon Joyce watching that video of Joe and Roz – you’re killing us over here!
Well, we got one strip showing it. Back in the day, pre-Joe, Joyce at night, in the dark, watching the video, overreacting and closing the laptop.
Or do you mean Joyce nowadays, watching it, with us seeing some more frames, and it’s “Joyce Does A Masturbation” or something like that?
The latter – exactly that
Roz is really likable today.
I hate Roz. I’m #1 Roz hater. I comment under every strip she’s in to call her slurs.
I just think she’s acting cute and likable today. That’s all.
You could had just leave it at first part. That would had been fine.
I want her to behave around me.
Well-behaved women rarely make history.
(as the saying goes)
Roz aims to make history.
I want that.
That middle panel face is great!
Given how many times Joyce has told lies like this, it’s astonishing that she hasn’t gotten any more skilled at it.
The true autistic struggle
She heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another they’d been messin’ around.
I’m surprised Miss Sex Education Roz is passing up the opportunity to teach Joyce about transgender people
There’s a limit to how much cringe Roz wants to witness in a day.
I’m not. Roz isn’t Joyce’s friend, or really friends with any of the main cast. Narratively speaking, Willis uses her as a foil to the main cast. She’s there to demonstrate Robin’s hypocrisy, or Mary’s vileness, or Joyce’s naivete, or Dorothy’s overbearing control. So she’s always at odds with them, but never a villain.
And Joyce and Roz’s relationship is pretty full of Roz having disgust for Joyce for parroting “fundie shit.” The last time Joyce asked Roz questions like this, she ended up accidently being offensive by asking how she became so shameless. 100%, Roz is shutting down any questions about trans folk because she gets enough transphobic BS from Mary and doesn’t want to deal with wading through Joyce’s unintentionally offensive questions.
And, I mean, you know they’d be offensive questions, because “The exact same way you treat cis people” hasn’t jumped out to her as answer #1.
I mean yeah, but Roz also offered advice to Joyce after the latter’s near-rape and Roz wasn’t even privy to what happened, she simply correctly inferred based very little information. And this was right after Joyce called her a slut.
“Roz offers Joyce correct sex education despite their animosity, because Roz believes in education more than she believes in being petty” was her established norm.
I wouldn’t consider the basic topic of transgender people to be “sex education.” Like, if you’re saying you’d expect Roz to feel up to teaching Joyce about transgender people because she offers people sex education… no?
Obviously Roz doesn’t have to if Roz doesn’t want to, but she did claim to be ready to teach the gender studies class, despite that not being “sex education”, so she’s a reasonable person to go to.
And advice after a near-rape isn’t really what we’d normally consider sex education either.
Hm, advice around sexual assault has been part of sex ed that I’ve had or been around as an adult. My issue my comment was addressing was with Derek’s words more than Roz either way. I’m not sure how much transgender people were part of the imagined gender study syllabus at the time Roz was making claims, and if she had taught it to the extent Leslie did, apparently this is where Joyce’s knowledge levels would have ended up.
In addition to any feelings about Joyce and her potential questions, Roz also probably (correctly) feels that she isn’t qualified to give any answers on that front and doesn’t want to speak for transgender people. Much the same as Ethan tried to do, but much more decisively. Educating is one thing when you’re the (s)expert, but quite different when it’s outside your field.
“Roz also probably (correctly) feels that she isn’t qualified to give any answers on that front and doesn’t want to speak for transgender people.”
HA!
I am highly doubting this.
Roz feeling she’s unqualified on a subject, especially when compared to Joyce? Doubt.
Remember this is the same person who once said she’s qualified to TEACH a gender studies class, moreso than their lesbian teacher.
Roz’s #1 trait is that she’s confident she knows all there is to know about sex and sexuality, but this is amplified by a thousand when she compares herself to Joyce.
If you want to be less charitable to Roz, you could even say that it’s a topic she can’t speak with as much authority on, and she wants to be seen as an authority or expert, so she doesn’t dive into things she feels might threaten that.
Also, just, might not have the tolerance for the kind of questions she’d expect from Joyce when she was just walking down the hall and ran into her.
Roz knows (or acts like she knows) a lot about sex and ethical fuckism. I don’t think we have any evidence she’s equally informed about Gender Stuff™, so her flat refusal to engage that topic seems very fair.
Probably not as informed as she thinks, but she did claim she could probably teach the Gender Studies class early on.
Never have I ever seen an 18-year-old claim expertise beyond their actual ability.
Of course, but that’s at least a claim that she thinks she’s informed enough about Gender Stuff™ to teach others.
To be fair, she probably gained a bit of humility from that class.
Thoughts and prayers for Dorothy/Joyce shippers.
Oh, no, Woof McGee. The Ship ™ is not over, not by any stretch of the imagination. (and how well can we stretch our imaginations? olympically, thankyouverymuch). In the Multiverse, there is a world in which Joyce requires Dorothy to guide Joyce and Joe through first time sex. In this world, perhaps, Roz recommends her sex tape or perhaps another as such a guide.
It’s ok, I’ll ship Joyce with Roz
WE COULD HAVE BUTCH JOYCE
Pixie cut, mullet, Mohawk, mullethawk, or Leon Kennedy?
Leon Kennedy Boyce has me howlinggg I hope someone draws this
C’mon Roz, just tell her to act normal around trans people. Be an ally.
She’s off the clock right now. Her office hours are between 11:30am and 4:00pm, Monday through Thursday.
That’s a nice pat answer, but it doesn’t really cover everything. Especially in a situation like she is (or really was) in with Carla.
She’d been treating Carla normal, because she didn’t know and Carla was wary of her because she’d had a fundie upbringing. Would there be a reasonable way to convey “I know now and I’m fine with it.”?
And of course differently with Jocelyn when she learns about that, since there she’ll need to actively support her, but also change how she treats her.
“Nice pat answer” comes across as more dismissive than I’d intended. It really is most of what’s needed.
Ya, just quickly explain to Joyce how not to be weird in social situations.
So she can say “sex with Joe” just fine when it’s not reffering to her, okay!
“I don’t know anything about your sexual congress with him. Now, I have an itemized list of questions. First is, at 00:01:17 in the video, what were you doing with your left hand? It was off-camera and clearly having an effect.”
She starts doing a three stooges imitation.
Roz. Roz. why “nope”? Is it so hard to say “treat them as you would treat any other person. Just go with any requests regarding pronouns and such.” Would that be so bad? We aren’t fucking fragile, we just don’t want to be treated like shit.
Exactly trans people are just people. Treat them like you would anyone else of their preferred gender.
She says “Nope” because she, understandably, doesn’t wanna have this complicated conversation right now with Joyce.
This is no sort of rebuttal, I’m gonna say that up front.
Your comment makes me think, if we’re meant to be cool and treat trans people like cis people (and we are, natch), is there a generally agreed-on level of enthusiasm we should have if our trans friend comes out to us? Like, is “Oh, really? Neat.” too neutral? Cuz that’s how I’d react to a friend revealing they were really good at the guitar, or they voiced a character in a video game I was playing.
I go with a casual sounding response but where I am pretty obviously trying to hold back my enthusiasm.
Varies on the person and all that, but I think something along the lines of “That’s awesome” or “I’m so happy for you” and “Thanks for telling me” (if relevant) would generally be acceptable.
I think that works to an extent but obviously there are simply some ways in which you do have to approach things differently. While you do respect trans people like any other person you also kind of have to change your diction and mindfullness. It’s helpful if you’re the kinda person who does that already tho.
I mean of course!
If we’re being honest here, actively trying to NOT think about it is paradoxical?
If I tell someone not to think of a Pink Elephant, what’s the first thing they automatically think of?
How is it really any different to be asked not to think of someone’s gender, race, sexual orientation, disability etc?
There’s this common mistake that JUST being conscious of these things at all period automatically constitutes racism, queerphobia, impoliteness etc.
They may not define us, but they still affect us in important ways that can’t be ignored, for instance IRL I have severe vocal difficulties that make me practically mute, obviously I want my friends to be conscious of that during voice calls so that they can look at my typed messages and I can still be part of the conversation ^^
Trans people do more than just exist, being aware of how this often affects the way we have to live and do things both personally and in society at large is necessary for us to really be welcome and more included in a society largely build for the cis straight white Christian Everyman.
If Joyce is compelled to simply revolve her routine around just avoiding any and all encounters with Carla or any trans folk period, out of fear of offense, this pattern that unfortunately manifests itself as groups of people and systems at large in our society, in the end that’s still being part of the problem.
TL; DR
If Joyce is compelled out of fear of offense to avoid Carla or any other trans person, when cis white straight people at large wind up revolving their lives around minimizing interaction with us and reminders of human differences because of fear and ignorance, that literally means we’re marginalized.
“This is what the Sunken Place means. No matter how hard we scream, The System silences us.”
— Jordan Peele
I’m impressed that Joyce didn’t run away. “Nope, too awkward! I was never here!”
She has embarrassed herself so often she is building immunity.
It just occurred to me.
Joyce asked a few people on how to approach this, but literally everyone is saying not to address it or that they don’t have the right information.
She asked Ethan. He said he wasn’t an expert (then gave her advice thinking she meant Jocelyne.)
She asked Sarah. Who said she just keeps her head down.
She’s asking Roz here, who just straight up denies addressing the issue.
I wonder if this is going to become a trend where people don’t educate themselves for fear of looking like assholes, but it just sorta pervades this air of other-ness that doesn’t help anyone who identifies as trans.
That was somewhat my experience. At a certain point of having bad faith arguments I think most people just get exasperated.and exhausted so they don’t wanna humor every single person who doesn’t understand how to act. Tbf the kinds of questions I was asking were probably not very sensitive in retrospect. I was often told to read up on it but I’ll be honest I just don’t like reading books.
i mean not gonna lie that’s a big reason why us trans and queer folk are pouring ourselves into things like making comics and video games and stuff ^^
I take Roz here less not wanted to educate herself and more that she doesn’t wanna have this very complicated topic of conversation with Joyce right at this very moment out of nowhere.
That’s clearly unreasonable.
(Scrolls past comment section transly) I aint give a damn bout all that I’m here to applaud joyce for, in my opinion, being A Very Brave Young Lady. She had to say the word sex!!! LOUD!! With her own desires attached to them!!!! She’s doing a great job. She’ll get that slipshine yet.
Joyce is braver that any US marine.
okay I didn’t have much doubts that Joyce was bi before, but this certainly cleared up the remainder of them