I do feel a bit bad for Carla knowing she is going to eventually discover that Walky lied. Unless Walky was accidentally right, and she finds Charlie while waiting.
Yet. I read a lot from uh… religiously mixed couples that don’t stay “moderate” as they age. It tends not to go well. 😒 At least for those I read about. Don’t know about the stats on it though. I am admitedly reading about the end of relationship group, not the rainbows and sunshine team.
Of course not. The vast majority of sermons are deeply unchallenging, because most congregations will kick out the priest or pastor if they’re challenged too much.
I’ve always wondered how difficult it is for believers of a faith (at least, beyond lip service) to date/marry non-believers or different faiths. Assuming they’re not the ‘convert or I’ll kill you reeeee’ kind of course.
Technically, I think you’re not supposed to marry nonbelievers. At least, in my religious private school growing up and my religious university we were always told to associate with atheists as little as possible because they’d bring us down before we brought them up.
Given that I’m no longer a Christian and happily married to my atheist husband, they’d probably point to me as an example of this despite the fact that they pushed me away from the church all on their own.
Not all religions are Christianity. Many discourage or forbid interfaith marriages, but not all of them. It can vary from sect to sect too.
Anyways, that’s my parents (a pretty devout Christian and a non-spiritual deist) and I do not understand it.
To a lesser degree one of my siblings and their spouse, but Christianity is not involved there, and I do understand that one.
It can definitely vary from religion to religion, yes. The Abrahamic religions are big on “You MUST convert them or they’ll burn in Hell after they die!” The dharmic religions like Hinduism and Buddhism are more chill about it because they believe that if someone does not achieve enlightenment within their lifetime, they will be reincarnated their next life to try again. (Also of note, dharmic religions believe that EVERYONE will reach Nirvana eventually. It’s just a question of how long it takes them.) I don’t really know enough about other religions like Taoism, Jainism or Sikhism to say one way or another about them.
Of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and Rastafari do not have an eternal torment. Depending on the sect of Judaism, interfaith marriages are allowed. Bahai does not require conversion to Bahai for their good afterlife, and does not require conversion for marriage, just that the Bahai partner not be required to denounce Bahai. And in Bahai, Hell is not eternal.
Not even all Christian sects forbid intermarriage. And some forbid it even with other Christian sects.
A lot of it is more cultural and situational than anything, though religions are very good at locking down rules that make sense in one situation and preserving them long after things have changed.
To get married in the Episcopal church by an Episcopalian minister my husband just had to say he believed in a higher power of some kind which could be like nature. It was really vague. Most of my friends from So-Cal would have been able to agree to it with general ideas of “spirituality.”
My grandparents were only allowed to get married in the basement of my grandmother’s church because she was Catholic and grandpa wasn’t. (But we think that may have just been her pastor being petty.)
I’ve long been puzzled by the way some people will tell you that God is all-powerful, all-conquering, but that at the same time His enemies are somehow more powerful and will easily turn you to the Dark Side if you hang out with them.
That’s actually a question in epistemology, a branch of philosophy: the Problem of Evil. It runs into contradictions of “if God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why does evil still exist?” If they’re both, they should be able to destroy evil and evil beings, but evil still exist. Which would imply either: they’re omnibenevolent but not omnipotent and cannot destroy all evil; or, they’re omnipotent but not omnibenevolent and simply does not destroy all evil that exists because not everything they do may be benevolent.
I personally fall on the side of believing the omnipotent but not omnibenevolent, especially considering the whole “Flooding the entire world and wiping out nearly all life on Earth” thing they are said to have done according to Abrahamic religions.
Technically, Paul explicitly states in 1 Corinthians 7 that you really shouldn’t get married unless you have to. Marriage is, to quote, “a concession, not a commandment”.
Verse 39 says a widow can remarry another Christian, but verse 40 is like, “but if you don’t want to, don’t“.
i guess becky and lucy chose a more ‘accepting’ church considering religious are pretty notoriously anti gay, and i’m pretty sure there’s one passage where you’re only supposed to worship one gold/no ‘false prophets’ but i guess compartmentalizing with it can help you cope
Religions say a lot of things. Jesus said absolutely nothing about gay people but said a lot about treating others with dignity and giving what you have to those less fortunate than you, but you wouldn’t know that based on the preaching of certain megachurches.
For some hardcore believers, they justify it with “missionary dating” — I.e. the act of dating/marrying this person is part of their evangelical mission to convert that person. Usually the person in question is aware of this but doesn’t grasp the gravity of how seriously the “missionary” takes their role.
That’s for hardcore believers, though. Most Christians are culturally Christian and it’s enough if the nonbeliever spouse will join services for Christmas and Easter and mumble along at mealtime prayer.
Whenever I go back home its my Buddhist/Shinto wife that makes me go to church with her. It would be a problem if either of us thought the other’s beliefs were stupid or dangerous I guess
I’ve got a friend who wants to set me up with a girl she knows and has lamented the fact that she can’t because I’m a non-believer to me. Says we’d be great for each other if it wasn’t for the religious thing, but unfortunately I’m as anti-religion as she is pro, so… it can definitely be a problem.
I think generally, it really comes down to what your source of ultimate truth/meaning/sense of purpose/decision making is. Most religions recommend the religion or something about it be that ultimate world view sort of thing. Lots of sociology of religion sorts would say whatever that ultimate thing is IS your religion, whether it calls itself that or not (it’s really hard to come up with a definition of religion that includes everything that considers itself a religion but doesn’t include things like football). Anyway, for a relationship, things can be fine until you have to make the really hard decisions that force you to dive into your ultimate source of truth. If you both have the same ultimate source of truth, you can usually work things out based on that shared truth. If you have different ones, it can get tricky. You might have similar enough worldviews that you can get to an agreement by arguing from slightly different perspectives on pretty much everything. But if you’re coming from vastly different ways of choosing what’s right or wrong or worth risking your life or reputation for or which values to instill in your kids, you’re going to have issues. When you can’t get on the same page, some couples split. Others have one partner who cares more and steamrolls over the other. It can be the religious partner or the non-religious one. I’ve seen it both ways. But it’s not generally healthy for either one.
And it’s worth noting, you can be ostensibly part of the same religion and have totally different ultimate sources of truth and meaning. You can be from different religions and have the same ultimate truth. But that’s what people usually mean when they say it didn’t work out “because of religion”
Reminds me of an argument I had with someone over the definitions of honor, valor and other terms like that. I do sometimes think that until we get the ability to share our feelings and thoughts more directly to someone else’s mind without words, we will still have issues relating to people having different definitions or thoughts for a word. Language is so imprecise in that aspect. Even what one person thinks of a color, like say white for example, can vary depending on what they associate with it and how it relates to them.
I’m a Quaker/Christian/Agnostic.
My partner identifies as Taoist/Agnostic/Atheist.
In our case, it actually works better than when I was an Atheist.
I was so angry about religion my partner didn’t feel like they could tell me about their being Taoist.
Depends on your own interpretations I guess. I’m atheist and my boyfriend is Christian. But y’know, we’re both normal about it. He doesn’t care what anyone else believes, I complain about organized christianity sometimes because of where I live but that’s rare. His interpretation is that the Bibles metaphorical, most of the rules are advice to keep you healthy at the time, hell is fake bc why would a loving god condemn you to eternal torments for what you did over the course of under a century. He hates popular American Christianity because it’s counter to jesus’ actual teachings, he also hates the term “Jesus is king” bc he was a humble dude and would resent that title. his relationship with his religion is very personal and philosophical, no church going or anything. So if it comes up at all it just turns into interesting conversations of philosophy and world views.
Depends heavily on the faith in question. Broadly speaking, there’s a few different possibilities:
1: No dating outside the religion, let alone marriage; if they aren’t part of the community already, they are verbotten.
2: Dating is fine, but no marriage unless they fully convert.
3: They need to be of a compatible faith, at least–so a different sect of Christianity, for instance.
4: You can marry a non-believer, but any children are expected to be raised in the church.
5: If they make you happy, we’re happy for you, and so is God. Invite them over sometime, but if they don’t bite, don’t sweat it too much.
He’s finally communicating. Hopefully they’ll get to why he offered to go in the first place. I’m not thrilled about the passive aggressiveness in panel five, but an argument would be good for them.
I don’t think they are trying to be passive aggressive, but I know how it might come off even with the best of intentions.
On the bright side for Lucy she’s past her 3 dates, so unless Walky’s parents upset her, or Walky, then they should get the chance to do the horizontal tango.
Those two are just being cheeky… He’s the one being aggressive. I’m not religious, and I know religion is a sore spot for the readers and comic (an understatement), but I feel like if you offer to go somewhere to make someone happy, whining about it before and after you go feels like an uncomfortable bad move.
I think the fact that they may sincerely believe it sort of sharpens the cheekiness, though. I also would rather Walky be open about having had a bad time, though he *is* very blunt here.
He’s blunt *that* he had a bad time. He’s not being blunt about *why*. All he’s saying is that it felt like it lasted forever and he did not have a good time, which is certainly true, but not how the whole thing really creeped him out.
Also, come on, they’re pretty clearly just teasing to lighten the mood. There’s no way that the Becky that we’ve been seeing everywhere else as being as close to the incarnation of positive religious belief as possible would legitimately believe in Heavenly Bouncy Castle discrimination.
As someone who is in fact part of a “we don’t think non-believers will burn in hell” denomination, Lucy’s comment does make me feel a bit uncomfortable and (literally?) Holier-than-thou. Like, it’s great that it is the case, but when you say it like that…
Yeah, it just feels very. Like, it’s a problem of Christianity sometimes that it trends so evangelical, that it so prioritizes conversion and “heavenly rewards” for the in-group. Withholding of holy rewards for nonbelievers is still a punishment, too.
I’ve been pretty bullish for Walky/Lucy up until now, but this feels like fault lines developing. Walky doesn’t feel comfortable with Christianity and Lucy sees it as sort of a default.
It’s been established that Becky & Dina are comfortable being an interfaith couple who have strongly divergent beliefs. Becky is allowed to be firm in her belief that God is real. Why aren’t we extending that same courtesy to Lucy? Walky’s atheism comes mostly from a place of “can’t be assed” while Dina’s is very much from a scientific standpoint- if anything it’s weirder for Becky to be making jokes about her partner’s lack of belief- because that lack of belief is much more important to Dina than it is to Walky.
If I may: part of it is knowing Becky better and knowing that snarky comments are a typical thing she does. We’ve had a LOT of Becky explaining her feelings about her faith on-panel.
We haven’t gotten either of those things with Lucy. She’s not big on teasing people and we don’t know how she feels about her faith, except that she’s shied away and apologized I think on two separate occasions after assuming someone else was Christian. This statement from her about her and Becky’s brand of Christianity not condemning nonbelievers is the most concrete thing we’ve heard her say about it.
Also too, people are really harsh on Lucy in general. She gets less benefit of the doubt from the readers. Mumblemumblecharactersofcolorgettingmoreguffmumble.
(Not saying anyone who dislikes Lucy is being consciously racist about it, just that. There’s definitely a trend among all of us overall to be more tolerant of all kinds of things when they’re coming from straight white cis men, and the more a character deviates from those things, the more criticism magnifies.)
I didn’t want to say it outright (because I’m whiter than sour cream) but yeah, I hear that. I like Lucy and I really don’t get the people who think she’s in any way manipulative.
I reserve the right to think that Sarah’s whole schtick is tiresome even if fundamentally she’s a good person, though.
I think Lucy is a good person. If anything, I’d say, her flaw as a Willis character was being A Good Person And Not Much Else. But she’s a much much much newer character than the majority of the DoA cast; she was a late addition to Shortpacked, originally a one-off character making a point about Teen Titans and DC’s truly terrible marketing decisions in the 2000s. She’s been gaining depth and texture recently and I’m interested in it.
The folks claiming she’s manipulative are… reaching, imho. If they’re picking up on anything actually on the page, it’s that Lucy didn’t have a lot of friends before she got to college, and she seems a little bit anxious to change that. She thought she had friends in her Forest Hallmates, only for them to drop her when Jennifer showed up. And her first roommate immediately filed for a room change because they hated her so much. If she’s latched onto Jennifer and Walky’s respective friend circles, can we actually blame her?? (Well, apparently some people can.)
Like, I think Lucy hit a nerve when she brought up Raidah to Sarah, but I bet Sarah’s crack about Lucy not “really” belonging in their social group drew blood.
ANYWAY, Lucy’s a good egg, Walky’s a good egg, they’re both doing the best they can. If I’m not sure this relationship is gonna work out, it’s decidedly not because I think either of them is a villain.
And I keep being a lil bit excited for Lucy that she and Becky have so much in common. FRIENDS!!! Potential real friends!! Not just someone Lucy is friends with through Walky or Jennifer, neither of whom know Becky very well.
Weird that I can’t respond to yours or Li’s posts after this point- but I’m in general agreement as well. I dunno, I can’t dislike her. And I really doubt she’s any kind of manipulative. Considering what we know of her past, I really just think she’s not the best when talking to people, but is trying really hard to be generally outgoing and friendly. I do hope she finds a friend for herself.
Also most people don’t like being made fun of in general, so making fun of someone’s religion that they have grown up with and is basically their culture can be a little rough. Depends on the person, as some can just roll with it, but it can be a very touchy subject. I totally understand why it is a sore spot for people, though I also know people that have found a caring community for themselves with it. I tend to treat it like other consent questions, where you do you and you don’t force someone to drink tea if they don’t want it. But then I also really don’t care about sports (find how competitive and antagonistic different team fans get to be with each other stupid) and yet tend to get those topics thrust at me, so perhaps people in general aren’t very good at being respectful about talking about subjects other people don’t enjoy. I know I do it on topics too. I just know that I zone out when people start talking about the fantasy football leagues they are in and wonder about the money involved.
1: I fully agree that being made fun of varies heavily from person to person, but I would argue that Walky is, for the most part, fine with being the butt of a joke.
Especially if it is being the literal “butt” of a joke. 😀
He’s got super-suppression-of-emotions as his superpower, to be sure, but he’s also just really calm and chill most of the time. Maybe its a consequence of his self-deprecation/self-loathing, but he does tend to think the best of others when they make a joke at his expense.
Don’t ask me if this is remotely healthy, god no, but he’s not taking the joking too seriously, at least.
2: Oh, don’t worry about the money, see, I wrangled Brock Purdy as my QB and that’s really carrying me, even if the Jets running game has been a bit of a mess and the Steelers defense is about as good as cheesecloth, I’m going to win the league this year, I can feel it!
I mean Lucy, not Becky. And maybe passive aggressive isn’t the right term, or specific enough maybe. She’s responding to Walky, but addressing Becky. And there’s something about how she talks to people sometimes that rubs me the wrong way. https://www.dumbingofage.com/bullshit-3/https://www.dumbingofage.com/dated-2/ Feels somewhere in the constellation of smug or condescending or patronizing.
Not buying smug or condescending, but I’d be willing to give you patronizing. Smug/condescending imply some degree of ill intent to me, and I’d argue Lucy’s biggest character flaws are all things she’s not really aware she’s doing.
100% agree with that character analysis. Lucy always means well. She’s a very good person with blind spots, especially blind spots around her *way* of being a good person. You know, like “trying really really hard to be everyone’s friend when they just want to ignore you”.
I think Lucy is fundamentally a good person. I regret to say that I think the precise way she tends to try too hard would probably grate on me in real life. 😞
Thinking about it more overnight. Part of it is what she’s saying, it’s an effed up part of Christianity, coExISt Christianity. There’s always a threat of being tortured for eternity. Like if a human being says while talking to another human being, “I love you so much, I’m not going to rip out your fingernails,” that’s a threat. Not torturing someone isn’t a sign of love. There are billions of people I don’t want to torture, and I am largely indifferent about most of them. Some of them I despise even.
Saying that he’s not going to be punished for not believing, about him, while he’s standing right there, is saying he deserves to be punished and he should be showing gratitude.
I get all of that is probably not something she’s consciously thinking in any great depth. That doesn’t mean this isn’t a lighter version of when Christians say “God bless” or “I’m praying for you” as an insult.
you know what, it’s even before she says anything. Maybe my eyes aren’t following the right path in panel 4, but I read Walky’s speech bubble, follow down to his face, then down to Lucy’s face for the reaction.
Lucy, as someone who was once a Christian (albeit not terribly religious) with an atheist partner, that’s a gross thing to say and I disapprove. Husband would not have been chill if I was just like “WELL I SURE AM GLAD GOD LOVES YOU ANYWAYS” to him lol.
But I’m very glad that Walky was open about this and was received well-ish. I just disapprove of the punchline here because that would’ve made my husband so uncomfortable.
It reminds me of my grandma, when my parents didn’t get me baptized so she tried convincing me to tell them I wanted to be baptized by telling me about how if I didn’t, then if I died young I’d go to Hell and/or Purgatory. She’d always change up the age thing too like she eventually decided for herself that “Jesus wouldn’t like children below the age of 10 go to Hell”, she was SUPER wrapped up in the idea of me dying young for some reason…
The age my mother always said was 12, because “Jesus wasn’t perfect until he was 12, he was a normal kid.”
I have no clue where, who, when, or how she came to this conclusion and it’s in a theologically blank spot for me, so Idek if that’s a Southern Baptist thing or not, that’s just what she always said.
There’s some apocrypha where Jesus was kind of a rapscallion between 5 and 12, cursing people blind, turning neighborhood kids into animals, and cursing people dead. quite the prankster! he undoes them later.
I do not remember the denomination of the church I was in when I saw their Bible had extra books in it, but I definitely read about Jesus turning his playmates into goats during hide-and-seek, while sitting in a pew during service.
IIRC, and I may not be, it had both deuterocanon and apocrapha, clearly labeled. The story of the hide-and-seek game is in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and maybe other books that use it as a source (or vice versa).
wrong infancy gospel. hide and seek is in “1 Infancy of Jesus Christ”. That site says it’s also called Infancy Gospel of Thomas, but that’s a different text, of which there are 3 versions, none of them having the hide-and-seek game.
There’s one, supposedly about Jesus tricking his friends to jump off a house to their deaths. Once they are dead, Mary makes him resurrect them. Once resurrected, they’re all pissed at them and Jesus legitimately doesn’t understand why –after all he brought them.bac
Man you have no idea how surprised yet relieved I am that someone else has had the same sort of experience with that! Whenever I’d told people about my grandma trying to pinpoint an age that a kid may or may not go to hell if unbaptized, I’ve gotten weird looks! It must be a Southern Baptist thing, because that’s what my grandma was and what most of the churches I went to as a kid were. Though in my grandma’s case, she made it all about how Jesus loves kids so much and all that, as well as kids being innocent, which makes it sounds like once a kid is 13 they just suddenly become a sinner automatically.
Ah yes, puberty. A completely natural change in the body… OR THE DEVIL STARTING TO ENACT HIS-UH SINS UPON THE HUMAN SOOOOUL!!! The blood of Eve, and the lust, and yada yada yada…! Yeeeah you’re exactly right. I’ve been out of the religion game for so long I’d forgotten.
It’s a pretty big part of standard Christian doctrine that every one is a sinner automatically. Hence infant baptism to keep babies from going to hell in some denominations.
He’s said that going to church was “something his grandmother made him do when he was five“. And that his family went to church on Easter and Christmas, until his parents sent Sal away, then they didn’t go at all.
Roz might have said something about being raised Catholic, wrt to having so many siblings.
I used to actually listen and think about it. But then I went (and these days still go) to an Episcopal church (think Roman Catholicism but priests can marry, be women, be gay, or be/do all 3, and there’s no Pope) where if you can’t give an interesting sermon you’re not going to get hired by a parish.
Yeah, we hire our priests, they’re not imposed on us.
when I finally got kicked out of sunday school for being too old, I would slip out a few minutes into the talking to either use the washroom or sneak apple juice from the kitchen. I think it was only a year or so after that we stopped going to church, so I didn’t see it as a sign of adhd until I remembered it a few years ago.
This is not the first time that Walky has said something and Lucy has heard something different, but I wonder if this is the first time he hasn’t realized that.
Walky says: “That was basically a cult. It’s important to you so I’m not going to try to get you to give it up, but I will not pretend to approve and will not participate.”
Lucy hears: “I was bored and had to wake up early, please don’t make me do this again.”
I’m not getting where you’re reading that Lucy isn’t understanding what Walky’s saying. She’s accepting that he didn’t enjoy this and won’t be coming back, at least by my eyes.
That last panel has some people tensing up, and I understand why, but I’m still reading that as her just accepting his ultimatum with a cheeky exchange with Becky, indicating that she won’t be asking it of him and that its not a big deal for her.
I think it’s more “Walky thinks / Walky says” than “Walky says / Lucy hears” in this case.
He doesn’t want to hurt her feelings by saying what he’s actually thinking, and his flippantly childish façade gives him a palatable excuse to fall back on.
To be honest, if he wanted to seriously bring up his concerns, it would probably be best to wait and do it privately with her, rather than getting Becky involved as well. Not to mention any random strangers walking out of church near them who might feel they should intervene to defend their church.
Not that I really expect him to do that without more prompting.
To be clear on something: Walky hasn’t said anything to Lucy yet about his feelings on the religion itself. He certainly hasn’t said how cult-like it felt to him, the only things he’s said in this regard were an aside to Becky about the song feeling vaguely off.
We know he thinks that because we can see his thought bubbles, but when the only thing Walky’s brought up is how long the sermon felt and that he doodled in the margins to pass time. You can’t blame Lucy for not hearing things that he isn’t even alluding to.
I’m not reading Lucy’s comment in the final panel as aggressive or condescending or anything. Just more playfully cheeky, joking with her friend about it.
I certainly get where one can read that shit in there, don’t get me wrong, there’s a fuckload of douchebag christians out there that weaponize passive aggressiveness. But taking her at her words, she seems entirely fine that Walky isn’t religious and doesn’t think that will have any notable negative impact. Until she shows that is just a smokescreen, I’m inclined to take her at her word.
See, I think it IS a passive-aggressive thing to say, and I think Lucy’s smile in the panel right before it is too discomfited for what she’s saying not to be a liiiiiiittle bit pass-agg. But I also don’t think passive-aggressiveness is always a horrible thing to be, and I think Lucy does mean well by what she’s saying. I don’t think it’s a potshot at Walky, but I do think there’s some strain in her and I also think there’s a reason she turned to say this to Becky instead of saying it to Walky directly; a bit of an instinctive seeking-support-and-backup, a bit of changing the subject.
see, I don’t read that as a discomforted smile at all. It’s the kind of half smile you use when you say “it was sweet of you anyway, I appreciate it” with a kiss on the cheek. Or at worst an “aww, okay honey” when your boyfriend doesn’t like the new series you showed him but still put the effort in to try it. I also have the take that she and Becky are just being playful in the last panel. I think she’s fully aware of walks views on religion and is really just grateful he wanted to come to cheer her up after a really bad day.
I’d agree if she had started with that smile, but it was a shift after the first much less wry smile in the previous panel. THAT panel had Lucy thinking it was sweet of him to come even though he didn’t enjoy it, and I see her smile as crumpling a tiny bit as she listens to him.
But it’s still images, not animation 🙂 so who’s to say?
Aggressive is glaring and going ” Do not expect this of me again” Lucy made a cheeky little joke, why so much slack for Wally and only reading Lucy in the worst possible way??
Because that’s how this comment section works. There are even people saying “Lucy is being terrible, but Becky, in agreeing with her, isn’t, because I don’t already hate Becky.”
This joke really isn’t cheeky or funny though, like… I get that it might be meant to be, but it’s a very “yikes” type of joke imo. My husband probably would not have stayed with me if I made these sorts of jokes, they make people very uncomfortable with good reason.
Well I mean would you have stayed with your husband if he offered to do something important to you, with you and the proceeded to complain about it and then glare at you while stating ” Never expect this of me again”?
Because I think Walky is way more in the wrong than Becky and Lucy
He didn’t actually say that first part, but I agree that Lucy isn’t correctly reading his mood. Three really’s and “do NOT expect this of me in the future” with a scowl aren’t a substitute for being honest about how creepy he found the church-going experience, but I don’t think Lucy would have been able to hold onto even that awkward discomfited smile if he’d said what was really on his mind.
But that is what he said here? Also given Walkys personality (which we the reader suspect is partially related to undiagnosed adhd or similar) its not surprising he was bored and that that could be the main issue. If I was Lucy I’d also be hearing “that was super boring, I’m not interested in going again”. Like they’d gone to a genre of movie he wasn’t interested in.
I choose to believe Becky is being facetious here because I seriously doubt Becky is actually okay with not being able to share heaven’s bouncy castle with Dina. Bouncy castles just seem like they offer way too many opportunities.
Becky was along the lines of “Dina would be pissed to see heaven is real”. Maybe not quite as negative as Lucy is being with “not punishing unbelievers” but they both seem to come from the same wishy washy my religion isn’t absolutist place and it baffles me people are slamming Lucy while giving Becky a pass
What’s kind of weird about the reaction to me is that “wishy washy my religion isn’t absolutist place” is about the best you can get without giving up belief entirely.
Would we be happier if Lucy and Becky did believe their God would punish all nonbelievers with eternal torment?
There’s a fun line in atheism between those who are content to profess nonbelief and fight against harmful religious practices, but will gladly offer tolerance and respect to religious practitioners as long as it’s returned, and people who just want all religious people to fucking die, and this comments section likes to blur that line in the manner of preschoolers who have just discovered finger painting.
As Dina once said, Becky was “raised to think that pleasure is evil and violence is love”.
Becky is obviously not violent herself, but nonetheless has that ingrained sentiment towards “worldly” pleasures, the marginalization of nonbelievers, and their intersection.
As a fellow former christian, I always just settled for folding them and tying them into knots and crumpling them and just generally rendering them unreadable.
I only had to go to church a few time as a kid (and even then nobody forced my I went because not going might have disappointed someone I cared about) and in those cases the programs were used for all kinds of stuff. I played the prime number game with my brother and cousin, we wrote “sentence at the time stories”, we gave each other maths equations to solve and build paper planes (and on one occasion stopped our younger cousin to throw it from the triforium, just in time).
Anything that would not disturb the service and keep us engaged.
at least he’s upfront about it. rather than letting it sit and fester until it becomes unbearable and he starts resenting her.
it may seem rude, but it was 200X healthier than whatever ruth and billie had.
people can have disagreements, you are allowed to say “I really didn’t like that. that was about as comfy wearing wool socks in a puddle of cold water.”
“do not expect that of me in the future” is a boundry. you don’t have to 100% go along with everything your significant other likes. it’s a relationship, not lucy and her arm candy
im glad that lucy seems to be taking it well.
DOA always has a problem with giving us like 2-3 panels to figure out what’s going on but I’m reading some intense “Lucy’s unflappability can’t make Walky less Walky” out of that third panel. He’s handsome and fun to be around but he’s never going to match you where it counts.
1. Huh, Lucy sure did miss all of Walky’s running jokes at the expense of Joyce’s religious beliefs. He hasn’t been saying that stuff to her. Character growth?? Knowing that, while it made Joyce pout and fume, it would just hurt Lucy and she’d see him as a jerk rather than an annoying kid brother?
2. On the other hand, maybe Lucy would have been less hurt by the kind of teasing he did of Joyce (and mostly it was teasing, I think “she’s crazy brainwashed” was the most serious thing he ever said about her beliefs) than she would be if she could have heard his thoughts during the sermon.
Because prior to going to church as a young adult, I think Walky’s feelings re: Christianity were fuzzy and unfocused. A “believing in an invisible Sky Daddy is stupid but not harmful” kind of thing. Which is why he was willing to go with her: he expected to be bored (and I think Lucy expected boredom), not horrified. But, unlike when he last went to church as a kid, he was paying attention this time, and what he heard was viscerally upsetting.
3. Lots of folks giving Walky props for being honest with Lucy here. The trouble is? He’s really not.
He’s not pretending he liked the service, no, but nor is he actually being forthright about being horrified and creeped out. Lucy is okay with the first part; I don’t think she’d be okay with her boyfriend thinking she’s in a scary cult. And while it would be rude to be that honest with an acquaintance, I… think Lucy deserves to know something that might make her want to break up with him?
4.That said, it does kind of depend on how important Lucy’s faith is to her, and what exactly she wants out of this relationship in the long term. A lot of young Christian women who are okay with sex after three dates are more specifically okay with what they see as prematital sex with their future partner, and she sure was in a hurry to meet his parents.
For their sakes, I hope they have a serious conversation and get on the same page before sleeping together.
5.Torn on how I feel about the last panel. In the storyline about Becky’s mom’s birthday, IIRC, there was a beat where Becky addressed Heaven in future tense, saying hello to her mom and also to Dina “who’s probably pissed about all this being real”, or something very close to that, and it really rubbed me the wrong way at the time. So does this.
At the same time: I’m not Walky or Dina and I can’t speak for them. Dina, at least, I don’t think would have been hurt by being in the room to hear Becky either back then or right now.
Kind of a crucial difference? Again, assuming Lucy’s faith is important to her.
Point 4 is super important, aye. If she’s being genuine here, that its entirely fine with her if Walky remains far away from church stuff, then I think things are fine here. Maybe she’s putting on a smokescreen to try to seduce him to the churchy side of the Force, but relaxed christians do exist in the real world (they’re just hard to spot because they don’t get all preachy about it).
Obviously there’s a question about the long-term prospects of the relationship when there’s a hefty point of potential conflict in there, but there’s a LOT of ways that could go, and they’re college students dating, the world ain’t gonna end if they get a chance to figure it out for themselves.
……….but, uh, yeah, no, there’s like zero chance they’re going to have that kind of conversation with each other before banging.
See, I definitely don’t think she thinks she’s going to convert him. I think she thinks she’s genuinely fine with him not sharing her faith, but I also think she thinks “not sharing her faith” is still the place he’s at, and it’s not. There’s a difference between just not sharing your partner’s religion and thinking they’re in a creepy cult.
And like, it’s totally possible I’m judging this too fast, too. With time and reflection, Walky might come to feel that, while the words of that song were creepy, Lucy doesn’t subscribe to a literal interpretation of those songs any more than she subscribes to a literal inerrant interpretation of the Bible.
Still. It really is a meaty bit of conflict, a wrench to throw into Lucy and Walky’s relationship. So I can’t imagine it resolving without some fireworks first.
Aye, it is a super-fucking meaty bit of conflict, and I fully agree that Lucy may well be in a metric fuck-ton of self-denial about how much this means to her. I’m just not in the “SHE’S A MANIPULATIVE CHRISTIAN WHORE BENT ON TRICKING OUR AGNOSTIC PRINCE INTO HER CULT” camp either.
Things are… precarious. I’m not one that thinks that all religions are cults, I believe there are people that are firm christians that are totes fine with being around non-believers all the time, but there’s certainly some potential problems here that could arise…
Is that a camp??????? Also big yikes on anyone calling her the w word.
Yeah I keep typing up more GENERAL thoughts about religion and atheism as portrayed in this comic and how I think that’s reflective of Willis’s complicated shifting feelings about religiosity across they various series. Which is maybe weird speculation to do here where they can read it sjskjdk
While I think your analysis of the difference between Walky’s comments about Joyce’s religion and Lucy’s religion is probably accurate, I still think another significant point is that he knew Joyce was in a cult. She was a fundie weirdo from a church that supported gun-toting child-kidnappers. The idea that mainstream Christianity believes some of the same things Joyce’s old church did about “God acting through you” and stuff is new information.
Re the final panel: At my dad’s funeral, the minister, who’d known him well, and with whom he’d had long discussions about religion, said he was quite sure he was in heaven, and quite sure he was denying it. Mum and I both agreed that Dad would have found that funny. If someone believes in an immortal soul, they presumably believe I have one, and I’d rather they made jokes about how I’ll react to heaven than talk very seriously about how I’ll react to the alternative.
I once saw a comic that said heaven has everyone up there together, and that is what makes it hell for some people. I always liked that better than regulating some people to eternal punishment that never ends into eternity, which just seems extremely cruel to me as even death isn’t and escape. As someone with depression and some other issues sometimes, making yourself suffer due to your own personal problems that you have trouble letting go of makes sense to me. Your own mind can be a very cruel place.
I mean most religions don’t believe in anything like the Christian concept of hell. It’s one of the things that surprised me after I stopped being such a thoroughly Culturally Christian Agnostic.
If you’re right then I was misremembering. I was pretty sure his first “that’s stupid” reaction was to Joyce saying she was after her MRS Degree, and that he made fun of her faith before he knew she was a fungelical.
That’s fair. Maaaan Joyce and Lucy’s presentation of Christianity is super super different, heh. Some of it I think is Lucy’s different beliefs, but some are also probably Willis’s evolution as a writer.
Hard disagree on point 3.
He made his emotional state crystal clear.
Explaining the reasons why he feels that way is going to require an on length discussion, which Lucy and Becky just kicked off to the side.
It’s not fair to hold Wally to task for not being that clear when there’s interference.
On top of that, maybe he doesn’t want to have that discussion in public.
I’m not taking him to task, heh. Though I get why it might seem like I am, since my segue mentions that I noticed a lot of readers giving him props. But I swear that was just a segue and not me trying to say “actually, Walky should get NEGATIVE props!”
No. I just don’t think describing him as being honest about his feelings here is accurate.
In re: #3 as well, I’m not sure if Lucy (and, for that matter, Becky) are actually capable of understanding how goddamn weird and disempowering the “God provides everything good. No, EVERYTHING. You yourself contribute nothing but the sinner’s prayer and some biology.” sounds when you’re outside of it. I’m 90% sure Walky can’t articulate that feeling in a useful way.
Hell, I was a church-every-week Catholic and I STILL found the more out-there Baptists preaching that message (and their songs) to be buck wild.
I was caught off guard as a reader that Becky was so uncritical of the song, but I don’t think Joyce has actually talked about this with her, nor do I think it’s a conversation either of them want to have right now. It was such a huge part of their lives and their friendship… it’s kind of sad that they haven’t talked about it. But I think they’re still in the “agree to disagree and try not to think about the disagreement too hard” stage.
#2) Joyce was a lot more aggressive and up front about the weird Christian things she believed, so teasing her back about was as much response as anything. Lucy goes to church and has mentioned being Christian a few times, but we don’t even know if she believes in the rapture or young earth creationism or most of the weird things Walky teased Joyce about. She’s okay with sex before marriage (within a relationship and after the required 3 dates). She hasn’t gone off about premarital sex tarnishing the petals of your soul flower.
Joyce was in an entirely different category.
#4) She’s been eager to make the relationship more serious – meet the parents and all that, and she does think he said he loved her which is a problem. OTOH, she started talking about sex after 3 dates right at the start of the relationship, so it’s not clear how much that’s tied into it.
#5) What’s a better way to address this? Is it just an inherent conflict between someone who believes and someone who doesn’t (or believes in a different faith)?
For someone who does believe in heaven/an afterlife, should they pretend they don’t in order to not bother others? I’m sure it wouldn’t be better for Becky or Lucy to talk about how Dina and Walky would be burning in hell. What’s an approach to this that wouldn’t bother you, but doesn’t require them to deconvert?
Re #2: Oh, that’s all true, but I was just thinking it’s both fortunate and unfortunate that Lucy missed that phase of his and Joyce’s relationship — fortunate because she might have gotten her feelings hurt secondhand, unfortunate because… I think Walky’s problem TODAY is a deeper one than his problem with Joyce’s Young Earth Creationist beliefs.
Re #4: It was early in the Relationship, but not early in the relationship. Or, put less confusingly, Lucy had a crush on Walky for a whiiiile before they started dating. I don’t think she was quite at the point of writing “Mrs. Lucy Walkerton” inside hearts on notebooks, but I do think she was already imagining their relationship in her head and had already decided she was willing to sleep with him. Now, as you note, she thinks they’ve exchanged a mutual “I love you”, and that might also be an important part of why it’s okay to sleep with him…
We just don’t know. She MIGHT not think premarital sex is a sin at all. I don’t think it’s quite a Liz Situation where she’s just fully in denial about that. But I do think she’s very much A Romantic, and I’m… concerned she would have big regrets about sleeping with him if he’s not at least going to fall in love with her later???
Hard to say for sure. We’ll have to see how things develop. I just keep remembering that this is literally her first boyfriend, sob.
Re #5: I rewrote this point a bunch of times and I see that it lost some of the emphatic “but that’s me and that’s MY boundary, I don’t want to project that onto Walky or Lucy”.
With that acknowledged: for ME, there isn’t a better way. The underlying certainty that anyone can know what happens after we die (instead of leaving at least a tiny bit of room for the idea that they might be wrong) bothers me. The part where Becky was anticipating Dina being annoyed about it bothers me, even though it clearly doesn’t bother Dina and Dina gives back as good as she gets. (She’s equally certain in the opposite direction, and so far at least the banter and push-and-pull seems to work for them.)
This was just a thought. 🙂 Not a judgment.
And no, I don’t really have devoutly religious Christian friends. That’s okay tho. No one needs to be friends with everyone in the world, heh. If the Christian Right would stop trying to make their weird interpretation of the Bible into laws everyone has to follow, I would say I don’t have any issues with the faith in modern times.
i mean, yeah. of course they can. i just find it funny the way willis has written the characters acting, like it was something she’d been badgering him to do and he’d finally grudgingly conceded, even though we saw no evidence of that and instead what we saw was him simply bringing it up, basically unprompted. and then proceeding to complain about every aspect of it, before during and after.
and i do mean that i ACTUALLY find it funny, as in, humorous. not in a snarky way. it’s a comic. the characters act funny, i laugh.
She didn’t pressure him into going, but it was very clear that this was something she would appreciate. Which is likely why he came up with this particular idea after his mom was awful to Lucy. It wasn’t because he expected to enjoy it. It would be deceitful if he pretended that he liked it, or wanted to make it regular thing.
I also imagine there might have been a begrudging part of Walky that was like “well I haven’t done religion in a few years, maybe I’ll see what Lucy likes about it so much” and had the experience been different, he’d be like “wow I wanna keep doing that I have felt the holy spirit”. But instead, he gave it an honest shot, and was honestly creeped out.
Maybe so but my comment stands. If someone serves me a 5 course meal and I don’t like the first course I don’t stop eating. I don’t care if the hymn creeped him out, if he didn’t pay attention to the whole thing he didn’t give it a fair shot. if that’s because of ADHD that’s too bad but that doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t give it a fair shot.
The hymn seemed rather dull (it wouldn’t fly in the Episcopal Hymnal) but I didn’t see it as “horrifying”. It’s a pretty standard Christian doctrine that hope for salvation lies in the Lord and comes from God’s grace.
I don’t see it having a future even on the college freshman scale. I just don’t think Walky is into her the same way she is into him. Walky just wanted a pal to watch cartoons with.
I’m saying “church mouse” was the mean part. I guarantee you if Joyce ever wants to shut Walky up/get him out of a room all she has to do is say those two words. Preferably with Lucy also present so she asks.
I’d be far more insulted by someone comparing me to Walky’s father than by being called a church mouse. Not as insulted as if they compared me to my father but still pretty damn insulted.
Walky is such a mood in this strip. I haven’t been to church in a long time because it was such ADHD hell I would actually go volunteer to watch the children instead. Well, that, and it was more my Grandma’s thing and she’s been long passed. Sayonara, suckers.
I think Walky’s being kind of an a-hole here. It seems to me he could have at least listened to the sermon to see if the minister had anything interesting to say.
Unless what the minister had to say involved “condemning the hymns” (and I promise you it didn’t), he had nothing interesting to say and shouldn’t be listened to.
Technically he said he lost focus on the sermon after he ran out of doodle space. I think it’s been suggested before that Walky might be someone for whom concentration is helped by doodling.
you’re assuming he didn’t. I doubt Willis researched the United Methodist lectionary for this storyline, but these are the three topics for the third Sunday following Epiphany:
Year A: Glimpses of the Kin-dom (Have the Same Mind)
B: Becoming the People of God (A Second Time)
C: Love Never Ends: Being the Body of Christ (You are the Body)
Those, like I expect most sermon topics there, are for the congregants, not an outside observer who has no interest in religion.
I was raised (barely) Methodist. I’ve only ever encountered one minister who had anything interesting to say, and that was a young guy who was basically calling out members of our congregation for being MASSIVE hypocrites and bad Christians “Bad” here basically meaning following Republican Jesus instead of Biblical Jesus.
Naturally, he did not last long in our R+21 parish.
Honestly, this seems reasonably ideal on both sides?
Walky is being honest that church is very much Not For Him.
Lucy is appreciative that he tried something for her, but recognizes that it wasn’t his cup of tea.
*shrug* I fail to see why this should necessitate any sort of conflict. Erfworld was a webcomic whose fall was way more memorable than anything about it, but I still like its line of “We try things. Sometimes they even work.”
I remember that Parks and Rec episode where Chris invites Ron to Yoga.
His one reservation about him was that he was inflexible, but by agreeing to go to meditation, he showed he was willing to try new things or compromise.
This [panel 1-4] is perfectly fine as relationship accomodation goes.
Try out your partner’s favorite hobby once, with good grace. (If you can’t do it with good grace, don’t do it at all. If you already know (not just expect) you will have a shit time going to church or a crochet meetup or playing paintball or whatever, it’s fine to not try it at all. Just think about whether you *want* to give it a chance to see what your partner is up to!
If you tried and you don’t like it, don’t force yourself and don’t let your partner force you to go again.
I did this wrong in my first relationship and we ruined entire dates by coercing the other into things they did not enjoy, with no good grace and just contempt for the thing one of us didn’t actually want to do.
It is completely fine to have separate hobbies! Use them to spend time alone or with friends. Not everything has to be a couple thing. You don’t need to spoil your own hobby by allowing your partner to poop on it with their bad mood (a sort of valid mood when they don’t actually want to be there, but feel obliged…)
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what about nonbelieving partners who doom Carla to an entire day of giddily waiting for someone who won’t show up
we did draw in the programs tho
my friend’s dad actually would make really elaborate patterns
An entire day? Carla is clearly doomed to eternal waiting, just like Steve who still hasn’t finished that bowl of cereal yet.
DYW!!
deep cut
Oh dear god. I completely forgot that steve is still eating his cereal. and for that matter, what happened to Cosette and Emily? Or Brun?
If we’re going *that* deep, how ’bout Raven?
Welcome to the nightmare that is the Tethercat Principle.
I do feel a bit bad for Carla knowing she is going to eventually discover that Walky lied. Unless Walky was accidentally right, and she finds Charlie while waiting.
Waiting for
GodotCharlie.Walky dug his own grave with that one. The Sword of Damocles has nothing on the Pie of Carla.
Dina will teach a dinosaur to bounce on a ball!!! XD
Ah, I see you’re a person of culture as well.
Or virus of culture, as the case may be.
a parasite isn’t the same thing as a virus!
get your types of organisms sorted out! :p
Wait, I get banned from the bouncy castles, thus giving me an excuse to f off and do my own thing?
Bonus!
more time to attack and dethrone God.
That’s been tried.
It is not effective.
That’s what they want you to think. In fact, God is dead[1] and Lucifer’s just been Weekend at Bernie’sing Him since he seized the celestial throne.
1. Nietzsche, Friedrich (1882) The Gay Science
Glad he’s not pretending he liked it, not that I think Lucy is stupid and would buy that.
At least he was honest, that’s something I guess
And Lucy didn’t react negatively to Walky’s bluntness, so there’s that.
Yet. I read a lot from uh… religiously mixed couples that don’t stay “moderate” as they age. It tends not to go well. 😒 At least for those I read about. Don’t know about the stats on it though. I am admitedly reading about the end of relationship group, not the rainbows and sunshine team.
Oglaf gets it. (Uhh… pretty NSFW. Yeah.)
And pretty decidedly orthogonal as well.
Ooh. Thanks for reminding me that I’m several weeks behind on Oglaf.
If these two are getting married religion might not even be the first problem.
Assertive Walky! Gosh, he might eventually move up into the “i don’t mind seeing strips with this character” tier if he keeps this up!
It won’t be the first time she’ll be happy he came with her.
Don’t you mean “won’t be the last time…”?
Well that’s the problem. It just might be the last time.
Sermons are not conducive to boners.
Now that I think of it, I’ve never heard a sermon out of the Song of Solomon.
Of course not. The vast majority of sermons are deeply unchallenging, because most congregations will kick out the priest or pastor if they’re challenged too much.
I have and they were deeply anti-Semitic.
Walky: It’s just a normal castle (grabs Lucy’s hands) until we get into it.
And the image explaining those thousand words drops… when? Pretty please?
Yoto, doesn’t Billie qualify as bouncy castle? She’s vaguely Christian.
Sure, but won’t believers be punished anyway. Like, the Church may not like Dina
Careful, Walky, any more intricate drawings and you’ll end up as Michaelangelo
Dina doesn’t get to use the bouncy castle? That’s a shame.
🥺🦖
She’ll be hanging out with Kurt Vonnegut instead.
Can’t wait for the Bokononist!Dina arc
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=0MLAl6Og2vc
Song based on that book. If you’re of a certain age you might have heard it on the radio.
I’m OK without the bouncy castle … just so long as I can still get to use the ball pit with my good friend Katie Barefoot.
You linked to the picture, not to the xkcd page.
If you link to the disembodied picture, you don’t get the alt-text.
What is wrong with you!
Can’t use a bouncy castle with claws. Dina will be a dino in heaven, of course.
As a diabetic I only drink diet soda, guess I’m just getting the eternal torment early
You’ve my deepest sympathy. I can’t stand aspartame.
Think of it as a head start program.
I’m not diabetic but i legit prefer some sugar free sodas. Pepsi Max is way better than regular and is probably my favourite soda
Totally agree about Pepsi Max, it’s my go to soda.
Thankfully they’re getting better these days and the zero sugar Sunkist is pretty good as well.
I’ve always wondered how difficult it is for believers of a faith (at least, beyond lip service) to date/marry non-believers or different faiths. Assuming they’re not the ‘convert or I’ll kill you reeeee’ kind of course.
Technically, I think you’re not supposed to marry nonbelievers. At least, in my religious private school growing up and my religious university we were always told to associate with atheists as little as possible because they’d bring us down before we brought them up.
Given that I’m no longer a Christian and happily married to my atheist husband, they’d probably point to me as an example of this despite the fact that they pushed me away from the church all on their own.
Man, it’s almost like they low-key knew it was all bullshit. Cognitive dissonance is wild.
Not all religions are Christianity. Many discourage or forbid interfaith marriages, but not all of them. It can vary from sect to sect too.
Anyways, that’s my parents (a pretty devout Christian and a non-spiritual deist) and I do not understand it.
To a lesser degree one of my siblings and their spouse, but Christianity is not involved there, and I do understand that one.
It can definitely vary from religion to religion, yes. The Abrahamic religions are big on “You MUST convert them or they’ll burn in Hell after they die!” The dharmic religions like Hinduism and Buddhism are more chill about it because they believe that if someone does not achieve enlightenment within their lifetime, they will be reincarnated their next life to try again. (Also of note, dharmic religions believe that EVERYONE will reach Nirvana eventually. It’s just a question of how long it takes them.) I don’t really know enough about other religions like Taoism, Jainism or Sikhism to say one way or another about them.
Of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and Rastafari do not have an eternal torment. Depending on the sect of Judaism, interfaith marriages are allowed. Bahai does not require conversion to Bahai for their good afterlife, and does not require conversion for marriage, just that the Bahai partner not be required to denounce Bahai. And in Bahai, Hell is not eternal.
Not even all Christian sects forbid intermarriage. And some forbid it even with other Christian sects.
A lot of it is more cultural and situational than anything, though religions are very good at locking down rules that make sense in one situation and preserving them long after things have changed.
To get married in the Episcopal church by an Episcopalian minister my husband just had to say he believed in a higher power of some kind which could be like nature. It was really vague. Most of my friends from So-Cal would have been able to agree to it with general ideas of “spirituality.”
My grandparents were only allowed to get married in the basement of my grandmother’s church because she was Catholic and grandpa wasn’t. (But we think that may have just been her pastor being petty.)
I’ve long been puzzled by the way some people will tell you that God is all-powerful, all-conquering, but that at the same time His enemies are somehow more powerful and will easily turn you to the Dark Side if you hang out with them.
Many would frame it more as “people are weak and easily fall prey to temptation”, rather than His enemies are more powerful.
And I can see their point: I don’t think cookies are more powerful than I am, but I often fall to their temptation.
That’s actually a question in epistemology, a branch of philosophy: the Problem of Evil. It runs into contradictions of “if God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why does evil still exist?” If they’re both, they should be able to destroy evil and evil beings, but evil still exist. Which would imply either: they’re omnibenevolent but not omnipotent and cannot destroy all evil; or, they’re omnipotent but not omnibenevolent and simply does not destroy all evil that exists because not everything they do may be benevolent.
I personally fall on the side of believing the omnipotent but not omnibenevolent, especially considering the whole “Flooding the entire world and wiping out nearly all life on Earth” thing they are said to have done according to Abrahamic religions.
Technically, Paul explicitly states in 1 Corinthians 7 that you really shouldn’t get married unless you have to. Marriage is, to quote, “a concession, not a commandment”.
Verse 39 says a widow can remarry another Christian, but verse 40 is like, “but if you don’t want to, don’t“.
Weird how this never comes up in Sunday school.
Of course Paul at the time was still thinking of the Kingdom coming within a few years, which kind of changes the whole equation.
Definitely a source of tension but the actual level of stress would depend very heavily on the specific religious beliefs of the involved parties.
And how large religion looms in their lives.
i guess becky and lucy chose a more ‘accepting’ church considering religious are pretty notoriously anti gay, and i’m pretty sure there’s one passage where you’re only supposed to worship one gold/no ‘false prophets’ but i guess compartmentalizing with it can help you cope
Religions say a lot of things. Jesus said absolutely nothing about gay people but said a lot about treating others with dignity and giving what you have to those less fortunate than you, but you wouldn’t know that based on the preaching of certain megachurches.
I think you made an accidental truth “worship one gold”. The Republican religion.
For some hardcore believers, they justify it with “missionary dating” — I.e. the act of dating/marrying this person is part of their evangelical mission to convert that person. Usually the person in question is aware of this but doesn’t grasp the gravity of how seriously the “missionary” takes their role.
That’s for hardcore believers, though. Most Christians are culturally Christian and it’s enough if the nonbeliever spouse will join services for Christmas and Easter and mumble along at mealtime prayer.
“Missionary dating” feels like an unsustainable state of affairs.
Or just a really boring relationship in the bedroom.
Hey, as long as the affairs are great, the spouse may not mind the missionary so much.
Oh, hey, that describes my first girlfriend.
Whenever I go back home its my Buddhist/Shinto wife that makes me go to church with her. It would be a problem if either of us thought the other’s beliefs were stupid or dangerous I guess
I’ve got a friend who wants to set me up with a girl she knows and has lamented the fact that she can’t because I’m a non-believer to me. Says we’d be great for each other if it wasn’t for the religious thing, but unfortunately I’m as anti-religion as she is pro, so… it can definitely be a problem.
I think generally, it really comes down to what your source of ultimate truth/meaning/sense of purpose/decision making is. Most religions recommend the religion or something about it be that ultimate world view sort of thing. Lots of sociology of religion sorts would say whatever that ultimate thing is IS your religion, whether it calls itself that or not (it’s really hard to come up with a definition of religion that includes everything that considers itself a religion but doesn’t include things like football). Anyway, for a relationship, things can be fine until you have to make the really hard decisions that force you to dive into your ultimate source of truth. If you both have the same ultimate source of truth, you can usually work things out based on that shared truth. If you have different ones, it can get tricky. You might have similar enough worldviews that you can get to an agreement by arguing from slightly different perspectives on pretty much everything. But if you’re coming from vastly different ways of choosing what’s right or wrong or worth risking your life or reputation for or which values to instill in your kids, you’re going to have issues. When you can’t get on the same page, some couples split. Others have one partner who cares more and steamrolls over the other. It can be the religious partner or the non-religious one. I’ve seen it both ways. But it’s not generally healthy for either one.
And it’s worth noting, you can be ostensibly part of the same religion and have totally different ultimate sources of truth and meaning. You can be from different religions and have the same ultimate truth. But that’s what people usually mean when they say it didn’t work out “because of religion”
I think this captures the essence of it, and you explained it really well! Here, have my upvote +1
Reminds me of an argument I had with someone over the definitions of honor, valor and other terms like that. I do sometimes think that until we get the ability to share our feelings and thoughts more directly to someone else’s mind without words, we will still have issues relating to people having different definitions or thoughts for a word. Language is so imprecise in that aspect. Even what one person thinks of a color, like say white for example, can vary depending on what they associate with it and how it relates to them.
I’m a Quaker/Christian/Agnostic.
My partner identifies as Taoist/Agnostic/Atheist.
In our case, it actually works better than when I was an Atheist.
I was so angry about religion my partner didn’t feel like they could tell me about their being Taoist.
Depends on your own interpretations I guess. I’m atheist and my boyfriend is Christian. But y’know, we’re both normal about it. He doesn’t care what anyone else believes, I complain about organized christianity sometimes because of where I live but that’s rare. His interpretation is that the Bibles metaphorical, most of the rules are advice to keep you healthy at the time, hell is fake bc why would a loving god condemn you to eternal torments for what you did over the course of under a century. He hates popular American Christianity because it’s counter to jesus’ actual teachings, he also hates the term “Jesus is king” bc he was a humble dude and would resent that title. his relationship with his religion is very personal and philosophical, no church going or anything. So if it comes up at all it just turns into interesting conversations of philosophy and world views.
Depends heavily on the faith in question. Broadly speaking, there’s a few different possibilities:
1: No dating outside the religion, let alone marriage; if they aren’t part of the community already, they are verbotten.
2: Dating is fine, but no marriage unless they fully convert.
3: They need to be of a compatible faith, at least–so a different sect of Christianity, for instance.
4: You can marry a non-believer, but any children are expected to be raised in the church.
5: If they make you happy, we’re happy for you, and so is God. Invite them over sometime, but if they don’t bite, don’t sweat it too much.
He’s finally communicating. Hopefully they’ll get to why he offered to go in the first place. I’m not thrilled about the passive aggressiveness in panel five, but an argument would be good for them.
Something tells me that it is a kind of malice put into practice by these two previously
I don’t think they are trying to be passive aggressive, but I know how it might come off even with the best of intentions.
On the bright side for Lucy she’s past her 3 dates, so unless Walky’s parents upset her, or Walky, then they should get the chance to do the horizontal tango.
Those two are just being cheeky… He’s the one being aggressive. I’m not religious, and I know religion is a sore spot for the readers and comic (an understatement), but I feel like if you offer to go somewhere to make someone happy, whining about it before and after you go feels like an uncomfortable bad move.
I think the fact that they may sincerely believe it sort of sharpens the cheekiness, though. I also would rather Walky be open about having had a bad time, though he *is* very blunt here.
He’s blunt *that* he had a bad time. He’s not being blunt about *why*. All he’s saying is that it felt like it lasted forever and he did not have a good time, which is certainly true, but not how the whole thing really creeped him out.
Also, come on, they’re pretty clearly just teasing to lighten the mood. There’s no way that the Becky that we’ve been seeing everywhere else as being as close to the incarnation of positive religious belief as possible would legitimately believe in Heavenly Bouncy Castle discrimination.
Beckys comment reads like an obvious joke to me. Lucy… I’m not entirely sure.
As someone who is in fact part of a “we don’t think non-believers will burn in hell” denomination, Lucy’s comment does make me feel a bit uncomfortable and (literally?) Holier-than-thou. Like, it’s great that it is the case, but when you say it like that…
Ah perfect, I criticize Lucy, so Gravatar decries I must become Lucy.
Yeah, it just feels very. Like, it’s a problem of Christianity sometimes that it trends so evangelical, that it so prioritizes conversion and “heavenly rewards” for the in-group. Withholding of holy rewards for nonbelievers is still a punishment, too.
I’ve been pretty bullish for Walky/Lucy up until now, but this feels like fault lines developing. Walky doesn’t feel comfortable with Christianity and Lucy sees it as sort of a default.
I really don’t get this at all.
It’s been established that Becky & Dina are comfortable being an interfaith couple who have strongly divergent beliefs. Becky is allowed to be firm in her belief that God is real. Why aren’t we extending that same courtesy to Lucy? Walky’s atheism comes mostly from a place of “can’t be assed” while Dina’s is very much from a scientific standpoint- if anything it’s weirder for Becky to be making jokes about her partner’s lack of belief- because that lack of belief is much more important to Dina than it is to Walky.
If I may: part of it is knowing Becky better and knowing that snarky comments are a typical thing she does. We’ve had a LOT of Becky explaining her feelings about her faith on-panel.
We haven’t gotten either of those things with Lucy. She’s not big on teasing people and we don’t know how she feels about her faith, except that she’s shied away and apologized I think on two separate occasions after assuming someone else was Christian. This statement from her about her and Becky’s brand of Christianity not condemning nonbelievers is the most concrete thing we’ve heard her say about it.
Also too, people are really harsh on Lucy in general. She gets less benefit of the doubt from the readers. Mumblemumblecharactersofcolorgettingmoreguffmumble.
(Not saying anyone who dislikes Lucy is being consciously racist about it, just that. There’s definitely a trend among all of us overall to be more tolerant of all kinds of things when they’re coming from straight white cis men, and the more a character deviates from those things, the more criticism magnifies.)
I didn’t want to say it outright (because I’m whiter than sour cream) but yeah, I hear that. I like Lucy and I really don’t get the people who think she’s in any way manipulative.
I reserve the right to think that Sarah’s whole schtick is tiresome even if fundamentally she’s a good person, though.
I think Lucy is a good person. If anything, I’d say, her flaw as a Willis character was being A Good Person And Not Much Else. But she’s a much much much newer character than the majority of the DoA cast; she was a late addition to Shortpacked, originally a one-off character making a point about Teen Titans and DC’s truly terrible marketing decisions in the 2000s. She’s been gaining depth and texture recently and I’m interested in it.
The folks claiming she’s manipulative are… reaching, imho. If they’re picking up on anything actually on the page, it’s that Lucy didn’t have a lot of friends before she got to college, and she seems a little bit anxious to change that. She thought she had friends in her Forest Hallmates, only for them to drop her when Jennifer showed up. And her first roommate immediately filed for a room change because they hated her so much. If she’s latched onto Jennifer and Walky’s respective friend circles, can we actually blame her?? (Well, apparently some people can.)
Like, I think Lucy hit a nerve when she brought up Raidah to Sarah, but I bet Sarah’s crack about Lucy not “really” belonging in their social group drew blood.
ANYWAY, Lucy’s a good egg, Walky’s a good egg, they’re both doing the best they can. If I’m not sure this relationship is gonna work out, it’s decidedly not because I think either of them is a villain.
And I keep being a lil bit excited for Lucy that she and Becky have so much in common. FRIENDS!!! Potential real friends!! Not just someone Lucy is friends with through Walky or Jennifer, neither of whom know Becky very well.
Can’t respond to your last post, so I’m just gonna say “word”.
❤️ 🙂
Weird that I can’t respond to yours or Li’s posts after this point- but I’m in general agreement as well. I dunno, I can’t dislike her. And I really doubt she’s any kind of manipulative. Considering what we know of her past, I really just think she’s not the best when talking to people, but is trying really hard to be generally outgoing and friendly. I do hope she finds a friend for herself.
@Blume – there’s just a limit on nesting that’s all 🙂
Yeah I don’t dislike Lucy either. And I like that we are getting more development for her.
Becky is being cheeky.
Lucy is being an asshole.
Becky makes a joke to diffuse an awkward situation she’s been dragged into.
Also most people don’t like being made fun of in general, so making fun of someone’s religion that they have grown up with and is basically their culture can be a little rough. Depends on the person, as some can just roll with it, but it can be a very touchy subject. I totally understand why it is a sore spot for people, though I also know people that have found a caring community for themselves with it. I tend to treat it like other consent questions, where you do you and you don’t force someone to drink tea if they don’t want it. But then I also really don’t care about sports (find how competitive and antagonistic different team fans get to be with each other stupid) and yet tend to get those topics thrust at me, so perhaps people in general aren’t very good at being respectful about talking about subjects other people don’t enjoy. I know I do it on topics too. I just know that I zone out when people start talking about the fantasy football leagues they are in and wonder about the money involved.
1: I fully agree that being made fun of varies heavily from person to person, but I would argue that Walky is, for the most part, fine with being the butt of a joke.
Especially if it is being the literal “butt” of a joke. 😀
He’s got super-suppression-of-emotions as his superpower, to be sure, but he’s also just really calm and chill most of the time. Maybe its a consequence of his self-deprecation/self-loathing, but he does tend to think the best of others when they make a joke at his expense.
Don’t ask me if this is remotely healthy, god no, but he’s not taking the joking too seriously, at least.
2: Oh, don’t worry about the money, see, I wrangled Brock Purdy as my QB and that’s really carrying me, even if the Jets running game has been a bit of a mess and the Steelers defense is about as good as cheesecloth, I’m going to win the league this year, I can feel it!
To be fair to Walky, she did ask if he enjoyed it.
I mean Lucy, not Becky. And maybe passive aggressive isn’t the right term, or specific enough maybe. She’s responding to Walky, but addressing Becky. And there’s something about how she talks to people sometimes that rubs me the wrong way. https://www.dumbingofage.com/bullshit-3/ https://www.dumbingofage.com/dated-2/ Feels somewhere in the constellation of smug or condescending or patronizing.
Not buying smug or condescending, but I’d be willing to give you patronizing. Smug/condescending imply some degree of ill intent to me, and I’d argue Lucy’s biggest character flaws are all things she’s not really aware she’s doing.
100% agree with that character analysis. Lucy always means well. She’s a very good person with blind spots, especially blind spots around her *way* of being a good person. You know, like “trying really really hard to be everyone’s friend when they just want to ignore you”.
I can +1 this.
I think Lucy is fundamentally a good person. I regret to say that I think the precise way she tends to try too hard would probably grate on me in real life. 😞
I think Lucy’s being sincere in both of those examples, but I get why it could rub some readers the wrong way.
lack of sincerity isn’t the problem. If anything the sincerity is what makes those irritating.
Okay, then I mean I think she’s saying exactly what she really feels, and passive-aggression is by definition avoiding direct communication.
Thinking about it more overnight. Part of it is what she’s saying, it’s an effed up part of Christianity, coExISt Christianity. There’s always a threat of being tortured for eternity. Like if a human being says while talking to another human being, “I love you so much, I’m not going to rip out your fingernails,” that’s a threat. Not torturing someone isn’t a sign of love. There are billions of people I don’t want to torture, and I am largely indifferent about most of them. Some of them I despise even.
Saying that he’s not going to be punished for not believing, about him, while he’s standing right there, is saying he deserves to be punished and he should be showing gratitude.
I get all of that is probably not something she’s consciously thinking in any great depth. That doesn’t mean this isn’t a lighter version of when Christians say “God bless” or “I’m praying for you” as an insult.
you know what, it’s even before she says anything. Maybe my eyes aren’t following the right path in panel 4, but I read Walky’s speech bubble, follow down to his face, then down to Lucy’s face for the reaction.
Not being allowed in the bouncy castle sounds more like a perk than a punishment.
Lucy, as someone who was once a Christian (albeit not terribly religious) with an atheist partner, that’s a gross thing to say and I disapprove. Husband would not have been chill if I was just like “WELL I SURE AM GLAD GOD LOVES YOU ANYWAYS” to him lol.
But I’m very glad that Walky was open about this and was received well-ish. I just disapprove of the punchline here because that would’ve made my husband so uncomfortable.
wow Lucy’s lacy line was.. kinda cult like
I WAS JUST THINKING THAT…on several lines
It reminds me of my grandma, when my parents didn’t get me baptized so she tried convincing me to tell them I wanted to be baptized by telling me about how if I didn’t, then if I died young I’d go to Hell and/or Purgatory. She’d always change up the age thing too like she eventually decided for herself that “Jesus wouldn’t like children below the age of 10 go to Hell”, she was SUPER wrapped up in the idea of me dying young for some reason…
The age my mother always said was 12, because “Jesus wasn’t perfect until he was 12, he was a normal kid.”
I have no clue where, who, when, or how she came to this conclusion and it’s in a theologically blank spot for me, so Idek if that’s a Southern Baptist thing or not, that’s just what she always said.
There’s some apocrypha where Jesus was kind of a rapscallion between 5 and 12, cursing people blind, turning neighborhood kids into animals, and cursing people dead. quite the prankster! he undoes them later.
I do not remember the denomination of the church I was in when I saw their Bible had extra books in it, but I definitely read about Jesus turning his playmates into goats during hide-and-seek, while sitting in a pew during service.
Extra books about Jesus cursing people? Wtf?
IIRC, and I may not be, it had both deuterocanon and apocrapha, clearly labeled. The story of the hide-and-seek game is in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and maybe other books that use it as a source (or vice versa).
wrong infancy gospel. hide and seek is in “1 Infancy of Jesus Christ”. That site says it’s also called Infancy Gospel of Thomas, but that’s a different text, of which there are 3 versions, none of them having the hide-and-seek game.
See this is an example of why the Bible would be fun as hell if we were allowed to treat it like other mythologies
There’s one, supposedly about Jesus tricking his friends to jump off a house to their deaths. Once they are dead, Mary makes him resurrect them. Once resurrected, they’re all pissed at them and Jesus legitimately doesn’t understand why –after all he brought them.bac
I would watch this sitcom, I love that.
“It was just a prank bro”
“WE DIED”
“Yeah but you got better.”
Now that suddenly sounds like a fun story.
Man you have no idea how surprised yet relieved I am that someone else has had the same sort of experience with that! Whenever I’d told people about my grandma trying to pinpoint an age that a kid may or may not go to hell if unbaptized, I’ve gotten weird looks! It must be a Southern Baptist thing, because that’s what my grandma was and what most of the churches I went to as a kid were. Though in my grandma’s case, she made it all about how Jesus loves kids so much and all that, as well as kids being innocent, which makes it sounds like once a kid is 13 they just suddenly become a sinner automatically.
I mean, onset of puberty? With what Christians think is a common sin…?
It does track. 😓
Ah yes, puberty. A completely natural change in the body… OR THE DEVIL STARTING TO ENACT HIS-UH SINS UPON THE HUMAN SOOOOUL!!! The blood of Eve, and the lust, and yada yada yada…! Yeeeah you’re exactly right. I’ve been out of the religion game for so long I’d forgotten.
Unfortunately!
It’s a pretty big part of standard Christian doctrine that every one is a sinner automatically. Hence infant baptism to keep babies from going to hell in some denominations.
I mean, we do not know if Carol’s church was an outlier or not.
He might be a heretic but at least he isn’t an apostate?
That’s… certainly one way to put it.
likely never baptized, if they only went on holidays, or for his grandmother’s sake.
nvm, my brain inserted words in your comment.
I’m pretty sure he is an Apostate though? Like an atheist who was raised catholic.
Where did that idea come from? It’s never been mentioned by even one single character.
He’s said that going to church was “something his grandmother made him do when he was five“. And that his family went to church on Easter and Christmas, until his parents sent Sal away, then they didn’t go at all.
Roz might have said something about being raised Catholic, wrt to having so many siblings.
Raised nominally Christian but not devout? I’m not sure where that falls.
Trick statement: in heaven all castles are bouncy!
This is now canon
i’d picture the cluods themselves being pretty bouncy too
“I wouldn’t belong to any Heaven that would have me as a member.”
-Saint Groucho of Marximus
🤌
Is that the sound of one hand clapping?
it is the pinch half of a chef’s kiss, without the pair of lips right after it
–Dave, a shorthand, if you will
It may seem like he talked for five billion years, but it was actually only six thousand.
I nearly spat out my water.
Exceptional work, truly.
🤣 IM DEAD
OK, I got it on the second reading. 🙂
I was hoping for this kind of comment. Thank you. 😀
You’re not alone, Walky. When I was a kid, I would doodle on the bulletin during the sermon as well.
I recall braiding the ribbons for making the hymns too.
I used to actually listen and think about it. But then I went (and these days still go) to an Episcopal church (think Roman Catholicism but priests can marry, be women, be gay, or be/do all 3, and there’s no Pope) where if you can’t give an interesting sermon you’re not going to get hired by a parish.
Yeah, we hire our priests, they’re not imposed on us.
when I finally got kicked out of sunday school for being too old, I would slip out a few minutes into the talking to either use the washroom or sneak apple juice from the kitchen. I think it was only a year or so after that we stopped going to church, so I didn’t see it as a sign of adhd until I remembered it a few years ago.
You have to use the slightly less fun nonbeliever bouncy castle!
A separate but *equal* bouncy castle. 0_0
{sfx=voice type=creepy} Hell has bouncy castles tooooo {/sfx}
–Dave, best not described where humans can see it
This is not the first time that Walky has said something and Lucy has heard something different, but I wonder if this is the first time he hasn’t realized that.
Walky says: “That was basically a cult. It’s important to you so I’m not going to try to get you to give it up, but I will not pretend to approve and will not participate.”
Lucy hears: “I was bored and had to wake up early, please don’t make me do this again.”
Man your comment is very spot on.
I’m not getting where you’re reading that Lucy isn’t understanding what Walky’s saying. She’s accepting that he didn’t enjoy this and won’t be coming back, at least by my eyes.
That last panel has some people tensing up, and I understand why, but I’m still reading that as her just accepting his ultimatum with a cheeky exchange with Becky, indicating that she won’t be asking it of him and that its not a big deal for her.
I think it’s more “Walky thinks / Walky says” than “Walky says / Lucy hears” in this case.
He doesn’t want to hurt her feelings by saying what he’s actually thinking, and his flippantly childish façade gives him a palatable excuse to fall back on.
To be honest, if he wanted to seriously bring up his concerns, it would probably be best to wait and do it privately with her, rather than getting Becky involved as well. Not to mention any random strangers walking out of church near them who might feel they should intervene to defend their church.
Not that I really expect him to do that without more prompting.
To be clear on something: Walky hasn’t said anything to Lucy yet about his feelings on the religion itself. He certainly hasn’t said how cult-like it felt to him, the only things he’s said in this regard were an aside to Becky about the song feeling vaguely off.
We know he thinks that because we can see his thought bubbles, but when the only thing Walky’s brought up is how long the sermon felt and that he doodled in the margins to pass time. You can’t blame Lucy for not hearing things that he isn’t even alluding to.
He has not said anything directly, but the fact that she leapt to such an incredibly aggressive response is not great.
This just makes me think that it’s no coincidence we’re seeing Lucy and Becky together.
I’m not reading Lucy’s comment in the final panel as aggressive or condescending or anything. Just more playfully cheeky, joking with her friend about it.
I certainly get where one can read that shit in there, don’t get me wrong, there’s a fuckload of douchebag christians out there that weaponize passive aggressiveness. But taking her at her words, she seems entirely fine that Walky isn’t religious and doesn’t think that will have any notable negative impact. Until she shows that is just a smokescreen, I’m inclined to take her at her word.
See, I think it IS a passive-aggressive thing to say, and I think Lucy’s smile in the panel right before it is too discomfited for what she’s saying not to be a liiiiiiittle bit pass-agg. But I also don’t think passive-aggressiveness is always a horrible thing to be, and I think Lucy does mean well by what she’s saying. I don’t think it’s a potshot at Walky, but I do think there’s some strain in her and I also think there’s a reason she turned to say this to Becky instead of saying it to Walky directly; a bit of an instinctive seeking-support-and-backup, a bit of changing the subject.
Just my take tho.
see, I don’t read that as a discomforted smile at all. It’s the kind of half smile you use when you say “it was sweet of you anyway, I appreciate it” with a kiss on the cheek. Or at worst an “aww, okay honey” when your boyfriend doesn’t like the new series you showed him but still put the effort in to try it. I also have the take that she and Becky are just being playful in the last panel. I think she’s fully aware of walks views on religion and is really just grateful he wanted to come to cheer her up after a really bad day.
I’d agree if she had started with that smile, but it was a shift after the first much less wry smile in the previous panel. THAT panel had Lucy thinking it was sweet of him to come even though he didn’t enjoy it, and I see her smile as crumpling a tiny bit as she listens to him.
But it’s still images, not animation 🙂 so who’s to say?
Aggressive is glaring and going ” Do not expect this of me again” Lucy made a cheeky little joke, why so much slack for Wally and only reading Lucy in the worst possible way??
Because that’s how this comment section works. There are even people saying “Lucy is being terrible, but Becky, in agreeing with her, isn’t, because I don’t already hate Becky.”
Liar
This joke really isn’t cheeky or funny though, like… I get that it might be meant to be, but it’s a very “yikes” type of joke imo. My husband probably would not have stayed with me if I made these sorts of jokes, they make people very uncomfortable with good reason.
Well I mean would you have stayed with your husband if he offered to do something important to you, with you and the proceeded to complain about it and then glare at you while stating ” Never expect this of me again”?
Because I think Walky is way more in the wrong than Becky and Lucy
He didn’t actually say that first part, but I agree that Lucy isn’t correctly reading his mood. Three really’s and “do NOT expect this of me in the future” with a scowl aren’t a substitute for being honest about how creepy he found the church-going experience, but I don’t think Lucy would have been able to hold onto even that awkward discomfited smile if he’d said what was really on his mind.
Hm, I think Walky wouldn’t take much notice of “creepy”. It’s DULL that he objects to. The world is supposed to be entertaining!
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/02-its-the-love-i-havent-got/inyou/
Haha thank you for linking it for me 😉
He clearly got creeped out during the service and he’s covering it with complaining about dull.
Yep, this.
Yeah, he’s definitely trying to spare her feelings here.
+1
But that is what he said here? Also given Walkys personality (which we the reader suspect is partially related to undiagnosed adhd or similar) its not surprising he was bored and that that could be the main issue. If I was Lucy I’d also be hearing “that was super boring, I’m not interested in going again”. Like they’d gone to a genre of movie he wasn’t interested in.
I choose to believe Becky is being facetious here because I seriously doubt Becky is actually okay with not being able to share heaven’s bouncy castle with Dina. Bouncy castles just seem like they offer way too many opportunities.
100% facetious. She’s snarking for the fun of it.
Becky intends to get in a normal heaven castle with Dina and make that one bounce.
And the LORD said unto His favored child Rebecca: “NOICE.” And angels of the throne of God did high-five her.
She’s gonna sneak Dina in anyway.
doesn’t need to, really
–Dave, she’ll have been standing behind a Pearly Gate all along. “JESUS!!” “..what?”
Okay, this one is really good.
Becky was along the lines of “Dina would be pissed to see heaven is real”. Maybe not quite as negative as Lucy is being with “not punishing unbelievers” but they both seem to come from the same wishy washy my religion isn’t absolutist place and it baffles me people are slamming Lucy while giving Becky a pass
What’s kind of weird about the reaction to me is that “wishy washy my religion isn’t absolutist place” is about the best you can get without giving up belief entirely.
Would we be happier if Lucy and Becky did believe their God would punish all nonbelievers with eternal torment?
There’s a fun line in atheism between those who are content to profess nonbelief and fight against harmful religious practices, but will gladly offer tolerance and respect to religious practitioners as long as it’s returned, and people who just want all religious people to fucking die, and this comments section likes to blur that line in the manner of preschoolers who have just discovered finger painting.
As Dina once said, Becky was “raised to think that pleasure is evil and violence is love”.
Becky is obviously not violent herself, but nonetheless has that ingrained sentiment towards “worldly” pleasures, the marginalization of nonbelievers, and their intersection.
Oh my god just break up with her at this point. Ruth and Billie used to beat the hell out of each other and it still felt less awful.
that’s because it was less one sided, more or lessl ol
As a former Christian child, doodling in the programs was mandatory.
As a fellow former christian, I always just settled for folding them and tying them into knots and crumpling them and just generally rendering them unreadable.
I only had to go to church a few time as a kid (and even then nobody forced my I went because not going might have disappointed someone I cared about) and in those cases the programs were used for all kinds of stuff. I played the prime number game with my brother and cousin, we wrote “sentence at the time stories”, we gave each other maths equations to solve and build paper planes (and on one occasion stopped our younger cousin to throw it from the triforium, just in time).
Anything that would not disturb the service and keep us engaged.
at least he’s upfront about it. rather than letting it sit and fester until it becomes unbearable and he starts resenting her.
it may seem rude, but it was 200X healthier than whatever ruth and billie had.
people can have disagreements, you are allowed to say “I really didn’t like that. that was about as comfy wearing wool socks in a puddle of cold water.”
“do not expect that of me in the future” is a boundry. you don’t have to 100% go along with everything your significant other likes. it’s a relationship, not lucy and her arm candy
im glad that lucy seems to be taking it well.
I’m actually super interested to see a confrontation between Lucy and Becky over how they both are trying to guilt their friends into religion.
DOA always has a problem with giving us like 2-3 panels to figure out what’s going on but I’m reading some intense “Lucy’s unflappability can’t make Walky less Walky” out of that third panel. He’s handsome and fun to be around but he’s never going to match you where it counts.
Can we sacrifice Lucy to something? Satan, maybe?
Now just would a *sacrifice* entail here?
Lucy wouldn’t taste very good as a meal I don’t think.
I imagine she eats nothing but sugar, so she’d be fairly candied
What of that date with Walky at the Taco Bell, then?
Seasoned as well
The only sphere in which that would entail a sacrifice to Satan would be the Temperance Movement in late 19th century USA.
*the only sphere I can imagine.
Someday, they’ll get to the angry break up sex, and it will finally be worth all this.
Until then, I’m stuck agreeing with Walky and that feels odd.
Hooooooooooo boy.
Thoughts:
1. Huh, Lucy sure did miss all of Walky’s running jokes at the expense of Joyce’s religious beliefs. He hasn’t been saying that stuff to her. Character growth?? Knowing that, while it made Joyce pout and fume, it would just hurt Lucy and she’d see him as a jerk rather than an annoying kid brother?
2. On the other hand, maybe Lucy would have been less hurt by the kind of teasing he did of Joyce (and mostly it was teasing, I think “she’s crazy brainwashed” was the most serious thing he ever said about her beliefs) than she would be if she could have heard his thoughts during the sermon.
Because prior to going to church as a young adult, I think Walky’s feelings re: Christianity were fuzzy and unfocused. A “believing in an invisible Sky Daddy is stupid but not harmful” kind of thing. Which is why he was willing to go with her: he expected to be bored (and I think Lucy expected boredom), not horrified. But, unlike when he last went to church as a kid, he was paying attention this time, and what he heard was viscerally upsetting.
3. Lots of folks giving Walky props for being honest with Lucy here. The trouble is? He’s really not.
He’s not pretending he liked the service, no, but nor is he actually being forthright about being horrified and creeped out. Lucy is okay with the first part; I don’t think she’d be okay with her boyfriend thinking she’s in a scary cult. And while it would be rude to be that honest with an acquaintance, I… think Lucy deserves to know something that might make her want to break up with him?
4.That said, it does kind of depend on how important Lucy’s faith is to her, and what exactly she wants out of this relationship in the long term. A lot of young Christian women who are okay with sex after three dates are more specifically okay with what they see as prematital sex with their future partner, and she sure was in a hurry to meet his parents.
For their sakes, I hope they have a serious conversation and get on the same page before sleeping together.
5.Torn on how I feel about the last panel. In the storyline about Becky’s mom’s birthday, IIRC, there was a beat where Becky addressed Heaven in future tense, saying hello to her mom and also to Dina “who’s probably pissed about all this being real”, or something very close to that, and it really rubbed me the wrong way at the time. So does this.
At the same time: I’m not Walky or Dina and I can’t speak for them. Dina, at least, I don’t think would have been hurt by being in the room to hear Becky either back then or right now.
Kind of a crucial difference? Again, assuming Lucy’s faith is important to her.
Point 4 is super important, aye. If she’s being genuine here, that its entirely fine with her if Walky remains far away from church stuff, then I think things are fine here. Maybe she’s putting on a smokescreen to try to seduce him to the churchy side of the Force, but relaxed christians do exist in the real world (they’re just hard to spot because they don’t get all preachy about it).
Obviously there’s a question about the long-term prospects of the relationship when there’s a hefty point of potential conflict in there, but there’s a LOT of ways that could go, and they’re college students dating, the world ain’t gonna end if they get a chance to figure it out for themselves.
……….but, uh, yeah, no, there’s like zero chance they’re going to have that kind of conversation with each other before banging.
See, I definitely don’t think she thinks she’s going to convert him. I think she thinks she’s genuinely fine with him not sharing her faith, but I also think she thinks “not sharing her faith” is still the place he’s at, and it’s not. There’s a difference between just not sharing your partner’s religion and thinking they’re in a creepy cult.
And like, it’s totally possible I’m judging this too fast, too. With time and reflection, Walky might come to feel that, while the words of that song were creepy, Lucy doesn’t subscribe to a literal interpretation of those songs any more than she subscribes to a literal inerrant interpretation of the Bible.
Still. It really is a meaty bit of conflict, a wrench to throw into Lucy and Walky’s relationship. So I can’t imagine it resolving without some fireworks first.
Aye, it is a super-fucking meaty bit of conflict, and I fully agree that Lucy may well be in a metric fuck-ton of self-denial about how much this means to her. I’m just not in the “SHE’S A MANIPULATIVE CHRISTIAN WHORE BENT ON TRICKING OUR AGNOSTIC PRINCE INTO HER CULT” camp either.
Things are… precarious. I’m not one that thinks that all religions are cults, I believe there are people that are firm christians that are totes fine with being around non-believers all the time, but there’s certainly some potential problems here that could arise…
Is that a camp??????? Also big yikes on anyone calling her the w word.
Yeah I keep typing up more GENERAL thoughts about religion and atheism as portrayed in this comic and how I think that’s reflective of Willis’s complicated shifting feelings about religiosity across they various series. Which is maybe weird speculation to do here where they can read it sjskjdk
yes. Down with that strawman for calling Lucy a whore. They’re the worst. That “camp” is definitely something that exists.
Even if it’s not a camp in the comments it could still be something people are saying on Twitter, or something.
Yeah, but that’s Twitter, so who gives a hypothetical shit what they think?
There’s no Camp of the Whore. There just isn’t.
While I think your analysis of the difference between Walky’s comments about Joyce’s religion and Lucy’s religion is probably accurate, I still think another significant point is that he knew Joyce was in a cult. She was a fundie weirdo from a church that supported gun-toting child-kidnappers. The idea that mainstream Christianity believes some of the same things Joyce’s old church did about “God acting through you” and stuff is new information.
Re the final panel: At my dad’s funeral, the minister, who’d known him well, and with whom he’d had long discussions about religion, said he was quite sure he was in heaven, and quite sure he was denying it. Mum and I both agreed that Dad would have found that funny. If someone believes in an immortal soul, they presumably believe I have one, and I’d rather they made jokes about how I’ll react to heaven than talk very seriously about how I’ll react to the alternative.
I once saw a comic that said heaven has everyone up there together, and that is what makes it hell for some people. I always liked that better than regulating some people to eternal punishment that never ends into eternity, which just seems extremely cruel to me as even death isn’t and escape. As someone with depression and some other issues sometimes, making yourself suffer due to your own personal problems that you have trouble letting go of makes sense to me. Your own mind can be a very cruel place.
I mean most religions don’t believe in anything like the Christian concept of hell. It’s one of the things that surprised me after I stopped being such a thoroughly Culturally Christian Agnostic.
“Hell is Other People”. Which is both the Sartre quote, but also a Neil Gaiman short story.
If you’re right then I was misremembering. I was pretty sure his first “that’s stupid” reaction was to Joyce saying she was after her MRS Degree, and that he made fun of her faith before he knew she was a fungelical.
I mean I’m only here to the hunt down the wonderful godly man I’m supposed to marry pretty much says “I’m a fungelical” and earns the “that’s stupid.”
Their first bit of conversation also revealed she’d been retweeting bible verses at them, so that kind of set the stage.
That’s fair. Maaaan Joyce and Lucy’s presentation of Christianity is super super different, heh. Some of it I think is Lucy’s different beliefs, but some are also probably Willis’s evolution as a writer.
Mostly different beliefs, I suspect.
She seems much more mainstream Christian – no evidence of YEC beliefs or even of anti-gay prejudice.
Hard disagree on point 3.
He made his emotional state crystal clear.
Explaining the reasons why he feels that way is going to require an on length discussion, which Lucy and Becky just kicked off to the side.
It’s not fair to hold Wally to task for not being that clear when there’s interference.
On top of that, maybe he doesn’t want to have that discussion in public.
I’m not taking him to task, heh. Though I get why it might seem like I am, since my segue mentions that I noticed a lot of readers giving him props. But I swear that was just a segue and not me trying to say “actually, Walky should get NEGATIVE props!”
No. I just don’t think describing him as being honest about his feelings here is accurate.
In re: #3 as well, I’m not sure if Lucy (and, for that matter, Becky) are actually capable of understanding how goddamn weird and disempowering the “God provides everything good. No, EVERYTHING. You yourself contribute nothing but the sinner’s prayer and some biology.” sounds when you’re outside of it. I’m 90% sure Walky can’t articulate that feeling in a useful way.
Hell, I was a church-every-week Catholic and I STILL found the more out-there Baptists preaching that message (and their songs) to be buck wild.
That’s a possibility, too.
I was caught off guard as a reader that Becky was so uncritical of the song, but I don’t think Joyce has actually talked about this with her, nor do I think it’s a conversation either of them want to have right now. It was such a huge part of their lives and their friendship… it’s kind of sad that they haven’t talked about it. But I think they’re still in the “agree to disagree and try not to think about the disagreement too hard” stage.
#2) Joyce was a lot more aggressive and up front about the weird Christian things she believed, so teasing her back about was as much response as anything. Lucy goes to church and has mentioned being Christian a few times, but we don’t even know if she believes in the rapture or young earth creationism or most of the weird things Walky teased Joyce about. She’s okay with sex before marriage (within a relationship and after the required 3 dates). She hasn’t gone off about premarital sex tarnishing the petals of your soul flower.
Joyce was in an entirely different category.
#4) She’s been eager to make the relationship more serious – meet the parents and all that, and she does think he said he loved her which is a problem. OTOH, she started talking about sex after 3 dates right at the start of the relationship, so it’s not clear how much that’s tied into it.
#5) What’s a better way to address this? Is it just an inherent conflict between someone who believes and someone who doesn’t (or believes in a different faith)?
For someone who does believe in heaven/an afterlife, should they pretend they don’t in order to not bother others? I’m sure it wouldn’t be better for Becky or Lucy to talk about how Dina and Walky would be burning in hell. What’s an approach to this that wouldn’t bother you, but doesn’t require them to deconvert?
Re #2: Oh, that’s all true, but I was just thinking it’s both fortunate and unfortunate that Lucy missed that phase of his and Joyce’s relationship — fortunate because she might have gotten her feelings hurt secondhand, unfortunate because… I think Walky’s problem TODAY is a deeper one than his problem with Joyce’s Young Earth Creationist beliefs.
Re #4: It was early in the Relationship, but not early in the relationship. Or, put less confusingly, Lucy had a crush on Walky for a whiiiile before they started dating. I don’t think she was quite at the point of writing “Mrs. Lucy Walkerton” inside hearts on notebooks, but I do think she was already imagining their relationship in her head and had already decided she was willing to sleep with him. Now, as you note, she thinks they’ve exchanged a mutual “I love you”, and that might also be an important part of why it’s okay to sleep with him…
We just don’t know. She MIGHT not think premarital sex is a sin at all. I don’t think it’s quite a Liz Situation where she’s just fully in denial about that. But I do think she’s very much A Romantic, and I’m… concerned she would have big regrets about sleeping with him if he’s not at least going to fall in love with her later???
Hard to say for sure. We’ll have to see how things develop. I just keep remembering that this is literally her first boyfriend, sob.
Re #5: I rewrote this point a bunch of times and I see that it lost some of the emphatic “but that’s me and that’s MY boundary, I don’t want to project that onto Walky or Lucy”.
With that acknowledged: for ME, there isn’t a better way. The underlying certainty that anyone can know what happens after we die (instead of leaving at least a tiny bit of room for the idea that they might be wrong) bothers me. The part where Becky was anticipating Dina being annoyed about it bothers me, even though it clearly doesn’t bother Dina and Dina gives back as good as she gets. (She’s equally certain in the opposite direction, and so far at least the banter and push-and-pull seems to work for them.)
This was just a thought. 🙂 Not a judgment.
And no, I don’t really have devoutly religious Christian friends. That’s okay tho. No one needs to be friends with everyone in the world, heh. If the Christian Right would stop trying to make their weird interpretation of the Bible into laws everyone has to follow, I would say I don’t have any issues with the faith in modern times.
once again, walky, my dude, this was YOUR IDEA
Things can be your idea without you being obligated to enjoy them. It’s not a problem.
i mean, yeah. of course they can. i just find it funny the way willis has written the characters acting, like it was something she’d been badgering him to do and he’d finally grudgingly conceded, even though we saw no evidence of that and instead what we saw was him simply bringing it up, basically unprompted. and then proceeding to complain about every aspect of it, before during and after.
and i do mean that i ACTUALLY find it funny, as in, humorous. not in a snarky way. it’s a comic. the characters act funny, i laugh.
Laughing at funny things is ableist against online people
She didn’t pressure him into going, but it was very clear that this was something she would appreciate. Which is likely why he came up with this particular idea after his mom was awful to Lucy. It wasn’t because he expected to enjoy it. It would be deceitful if he pretended that he liked it, or wanted to make it regular thing.
It could indeed be a case of “I’ll give you this to make up for my Mom’s awful behavior.” A sacrifice for the relationship.
I also imagine there might have been a begrudging part of Walky that was like “well I haven’t done religion in a few years, maybe I’ll see what Lucy likes about it so much” and had the experience been different, he’d be like “wow I wanna keep doing that I have felt the holy spirit”. But instead, he gave it an honest shot, and was honestly creeped out.
If he just sat there doodling and completely tuned out the sermon I would say that he didn’t give it an honest shot.
The sermon came after the singing that creeped him out, I’m pretty sure.
Maybe so but my comment stands. If someone serves me a 5 course meal and I don’t like the first course I don’t stop eating. I don’t care if the hymn creeped him out, if he didn’t pay attention to the whole thing he didn’t give it a fair shot. if that’s because of ADHD that’s too bad but that doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t give it a fair shot.
Walky likely has ADHD. For a lot of people with that, it’s easier to focus if you have something like drawing to do with your hands.
Once you’ve heard that horrifying hymn what is listening to the sermon going to change?
The hymn seemed rather dull (it wouldn’t fly in the Episcopal Hymnal) but I didn’t see it as “horrifying”. It’s a pretty standard Christian doctrine that hope for salvation lies in the Lord and comes from God’s grace.
Damn this is some A+ “friendly” christian emotional manipulation from Lucy, very impressive.
“I really don’t care, in fact I wish him well
‘Cause I’ll be laughing my head off when he’s burning in Hell”
Does it have to be regular diet? What about that zero stuff?
Walky just go have sex with Amber already.
Some of the diet sodas are actually pretty good these days. Thanks, artificial sweeteners that aren’t aspartame!
I still don’t see this relationship having a future.
They are college freshman. Who cares about their “future”.
I don’t see it having a future even on the college freshman scale. I just don’t think Walky is into her the same way she is into him. Walky just wanted a pal to watch cartoons with.
And I still enjoy this more than whatever walky and amber had going on. Let that ship stay on the ocean floor
Walky is a baby Charles. He’ll do what his spouse /girlfriend wants and keep quiet about it. It’s what a church mouse does.
He is explicitly not keeping quiet about it and is currently specifically refusing to do what she wants.
That is the meanest choice of words I’ve ever seen someone in this comment section use about Walky, holy shit.
Though “church mouse” was a nice callback.
I’m saying “church mouse” was the mean part. I guarantee you if Joyce ever wants to shut Walky up/get him out of a room all she has to do is say those two words. Preferably with Lucy also present so she asks.
I’d be far more insulted by someone comparing me to Walky’s father than by being called a church mouse. Not as insulted as if they compared me to my father but still pretty damn insulted.
Sure, but you haven’t been a mouse boy in a creepy Christian video.
THE
BUUUUUUUUUUUURN
Walky is such a mood in this strip. I haven’t been to church in a long time because it was such ADHD hell I would actually go volunteer to watch the children instead. Well, that, and it was more my Grandma’s thing and she’s been long passed. Sayonara, suckers.
yeeeaaa. i dont see this relationship lasting. lmao
I think Walky’s being kind of an a-hole here. It seems to me he could have at least listened to the sermon to see if the minister had anything interesting to say.
Remember he also spent the first half of Calc 1 doodling instead of paying attention to the lectures.
I think he was thoroughly put off by the hymns and may have shut down taking anything else in at that point.
Unless what the minister had to say involved “condemning the hymns” (and I promise you it didn’t), he had nothing interesting to say and shouldn’t be listened to.
Technically he said he lost focus on the sermon after he ran out of doodle space. I think it’s been suggested before that Walky might be someone for whom concentration is helped by doodling.
you’re assuming he didn’t. I doubt Willis researched the United Methodist lectionary for this storyline, but these are the three topics for the third Sunday following Epiphany:
Year A: Glimpses of the Kin-dom (Have the Same Mind)
B: Becoming the People of God (A Second Time)
C: Love Never Ends: Being the Body of Christ (You are the Body)
Those, like I expect most sermon topics there, are for the congregants, not an outside observer who has no interest in religion.
I was raised (barely) Methodist. I’ve only ever encountered one minister who had anything interesting to say, and that was a young guy who was basically calling out members of our congregation for being MASSIVE hypocrites and bad Christians “Bad” here basically meaning following Republican Jesus instead of Biblical Jesus.
Naturally, he did not last long in our R+21 parish.
Lucy and Becky seem to be good friends. Or at least in friendly terms. Nice.
No soda in ☪☮⚥✡ı☯✝ afterlife, only pop.
Diet soda (from California here) for eternity! You monster!
Honestly, this seems reasonably ideal on both sides?
Walky is being honest that church is very much Not For Him.
Lucy is appreciative that he tried something for her, but recognizes that it wasn’t his cup of tea.
*shrug* I fail to see why this should necessitate any sort of conflict. Erfworld was a webcomic whose fall was way more memorable than anything about it, but I still like its line of “We try things. Sometimes they even work.”
How come no one has brought up how the shirt lick negates these bad feelings yet?
I remember that Parks and Rec episode where Chris invites Ron to Yoga.
His one reservation about him was that he was inflexible, but by agreeing to go to meditation, he showed he was willing to try new things or compromise.
This [panel 1-4] is perfectly fine as relationship accomodation goes.
Try out your partner’s favorite hobby once, with good grace. (If you can’t do it with good grace, don’t do it at all. If you already know (not just expect) you will have a shit time going to church or a crochet meetup or playing paintball or whatever, it’s fine to not try it at all. Just think about whether you *want* to give it a chance to see what your partner is up to!
If you tried and you don’t like it, don’t force yourself and don’t let your partner force you to go again.
I did this wrong in my first relationship and we ruined entire dates by coercing the other into things they did not enjoy, with no good grace and just contempt for the thing one of us didn’t actually want to do.
It is completely fine to have separate hobbies! Use them to spend time alone or with friends. Not everything has to be a couple thing. You don’t need to spoil your own hobby by allowing your partner to poop on it with their bad mood (a sort of valid mood when they don’t actually want to be there, but feel obliged…)