“Well, obviously, she’s feeling very sad, because of Cedric dying. Then I expect she’s feeling confused because she liked Cedric and now she likes Harry, and she can’t work out who she likes best. Then she’ll be feeling guilty, thinking it’s an insult to Cedric’s memory to be kissing Harry at all, and she’ll be worrying about what everyone else might say about her if she starts going out with Harry. And she probably can’t work out what her feelings toward Harry are anyway, because he was the one who was with Cedric when Cedric died, so that’s all very mixed up and painful. Oh, and she’s afraid she’s going to be thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she’s been flying so badly.”
Come on. We know that the problem is that there’s only one elliptical. It’s not that Kathy is one of those people that puts it on low intensity and then goes waaaaaaay too fast like she’s training for Olympic power-walking while she chuffs and huffs herself to a size 00.
Hard to say, technically possible I guess, but there’s also her own relationship frustrations, and her general over protection of Joyce and dislike of that relationship.
Don’t forget, Dot was watching from pretty close up when Becky showed up and Joyce figured out she was not gay even a little bit. I think maybe she’s thinking “there’s no point falling in love.”
In the context of a gym setting, probably not a bad clarification, though many of us would be aware that she does plenty of running, so it was unlikely that you were shaming her for being out-of-shape with “JELLY BELLY.”
imagine if it being sarah and dorothy gettnig together or at least bonding more over their shared jealousy of joyce in a successful relationship (hell, joyce even kissed jacob successfully too even if it wasn’t under the best terms)
Dorothy’s workout gear has always veered much more towards practical than cute. This is actually a step up from what we’ve seen her go running in, though. No sweatband to keep her hair off her face in this scene.
I think both, but saying that she loves Joyce… I feel like we shouldn’t rush, the problem here is that Dorothy thinks that if she doesn’t help Joyce, she won’t be able to help others and it’s also the second option, just think about it, She’s been through a rough patch recently and is probably frustrated that you can’t help her like before.
IMHO, Dorothy and Sarah ultimately have the same basic problem–neither of them are at a point where they’ve done the necessary self-reflection to figure out why they’re not actually happy with their (mostly in badly-planned self-defense) choices, and it’s causing them both some issues.
I don’t think it’s a disastrous choice. But I do think Joyce saying “A giant handsome man thinks I’m pretty!” probably feels really regressive to Dorothy and makes her feel like Joyce is thinking of Joyce as just a piece of meat, and that’s probably frustrating af to Dorothy. That, and Dorothy’s just feeling unhappily single these days.
She could be jealous, but I think it comes down to her not going to yale to stay with joyce, and that unravelling the entire future she had set for herself, and joyce not really needing her right now.
I don’t think figuring it out is going to make her feel better, at least not right away. But at least she’ll be able to feel bad in a way she understands.
Right? How are the only people with their shit seemingly together here, are the (admittedly, recovering) Jesuszombie and the (admittedly, recovering) worst thing to hit womanhood since Phyllis Schlafly?
Dorothy, you have to speak up for what you want, even if you know you won’t get it. Just to get it out in the open so that it stops burying you, so that everybody knows where you stand and so that if it comes to light later, there won’t be any hurt feelings or accusations of you trying to manipulate people’s emotions and the situation. It’s scary, I’ve been there, but it’s better than trying to bury it and make yourself bitter.
You’re gonna have to ask for a turn on the treadmill, Dorothy. You can’t live like this any longer.
I mean, it is also possible, even without saying it to the person in question, to let it go and move on, as well. You just have to resolve to move forward.
She *could* just leave Joyce there and go for a jog.
does she even know what she wants, given how easily shaken she was about raidah calling out “president doing war crimes isn’t my way of helping hte world”?
(surely someone must’ve pointed it out before that politicians, let alone the president usually does ‘terrible things for the greater good’
I don’t think it’s envy, but seeing that Joyce looks good makes him very angry, because he has this idea that if he doesn’t help Joyce, he won’t be able to help others, keep in mind the nightmare he had and the conversation they had recently.
Dorothée is epicene, and so is Théodore (note diacritics).
Anyway, it’s up to what society decides anyway, Ann and Philippe are/were epicene too. I don’t why you wouldn’t be able to argue Dorothy the like of Timothy and get people agree.
Well, she looks at Joyce staring affectionately at Joe with muscles, then looks at her less jacked arms, then looks at Joyce again, then looks upset and somewhat determined…
I certainly am leaning towards one particular direction when it comes to what I think Dorothy’s issue is.
Joyce is the last truly good and fun part of Dorothy’s daily life; Dorothy has excised all other distractions to achieve a goal that doesn’t bring her any joy or satisfaction anymore. All she’s kept hold of is her friendship with Joyce. But now that Joyce is dating Dorothy feels like a third wheel, and it probably feels like her last genuine friendship might fade away. Also, add in that helping and spending time with Joyce was probably a big distraction/consolation for not going to Yale. Remember what dream-Dorothy said to dream-Joyce, “I’m never leaving you!” Well, I imagine Dorothy now feels like Joyce is going to leave her behind. Which Dorothy probably also realizes is unfair, but one can’t help but feel feelings.
I think it’s a combination of things. 1.) She’s seeing Joyce in a relationship when she was recently outright rejected by Walky. 2.) She’s protective of Joyce and sees her dating Joe as doomed to end badly. 3.) She has been coping with her trauma by focusing all her nervous energy on “taking care of” Joyce, and Joyce is becoming less dependent on her. 3a.) Dorothy declined her dream of transferring to Yale to take care of Joyce, which Joyce doesn’t know about but Dorothy still resents Joyce not “needing” her as much because it makes her sacrifice unnecessary.
On the Patreon comments for this strip someone proposed that this is how Dorothy becomes a femcel, and starts a podcast, and I cannot overstate how fucking funny the idea of Dorothy in Oakleys, screaming into her phone in a car, is to me
(OR good ol’ Dexter/the Head Alien/some sort of eldritch equivalent could show up with perfect dramatic timing, obviously. There’s a deep poetry to the idea that Dorothy always breaks bad for the one she loves.)
I guess I just don’t… trust it? A lot of Dorothy’s behavior this arc has been potentially jealous (her confrontation with Jennifer springs to mind), but Willis has also lampshaded it at least twice now with a comparison to Ann and Leslie from Parks and Recreation, who were “tragically both heterosexual”, despite Leslie’s tendency to say real gay things about Ann all the time.
Then too, it mostly feels like Joyce has been drifting away from Dorothy and becoming more into Joe, something Leslie didn’t really do with Ben (the show joked repeatedly that she loved Ben but she REALLY loved Ann), and it feels like if anything we are setting up another scene where a cherished lady friend of Joyce confesses feelings to her only to be heartbroken by Joyce not reciprocating.
I dunno. Becky’s jealousy aside, I never really got the sense that Joyce was attracted to Dorothy.
I’d kind of like them to get together, if only because I’d love to see this particular pattern of lampshading subvert my expectations for once by actually going somewhere. But I have no idea what the resulting relationship would actually look like, when it’s no longer stuff like “haha Dorothy and Joyce roleplayed being married in our gender class, Becky, try not to explode!”
If that makes sense.
(Also I am Not looking forward to more people yelling about how abusive Dorothy obviously is and how Joyce could never be an equal while dating her. The very idea makes me tired.)
like. I think Joyce is attracted to Sal. I think you could say that fairly. I dunno if she’s ever said Dorothy was hot, instead of just “wonderful amazing way too good for Walky” (which, don’t get me wrong, was easy to apply a queer jealous reading to — but we haven’t had that kind of moment from Joyce in a whiiiile).
Man I might just. Skip commentaries entirely on strips that are at all potentially Joyce/Dorothy, and maybe strips that feature Dorothy period. It is just not fun to read most of the comic reactions to her right now. Alternate Universe Dorothy who just hates her friend’s happiness and deserves to die bitter and alone really sucks.
Working out sure sucks, huh, Dotty? You need something that’ll let you solve this Joe problem TODAY, not years from now when the beautiful Joyce has already been violated by his foul touch in every way possible and you receive a GAME OVER screen for your failure to Save her!
Well have I got a deal for YOU. Here at DEXX-GEN INDUSTRIES (parent company of the hit cartoon Dexter and Monkey Master), we’ve been working to build a military of tomorrow! A military of ALL tomorrows, actually…
I’m also pretty sure that was the point in the process that really broke Dorothy about it–“Wait, he’s NOT just a vapid goofy eye candy, he actually makes good choices when the chips are down? Shit.”
In the last panel Dorothy looks like the yellow watchman goby I had as a kid. He/she/they? (I can’t recall if this a hermaphrodic species) always looked very grumpy – but that was just how its mouth was. It built a cool lair down in the sand and would just wait down there for food and then man would it eat.
Look I don’t know if it’s intended to be read this way, or if I’m just seeing it through the lens of my own personal experiences, but this is the gayest comic strip I’ve ever seen.
Source: as a young lesbian I definitely made that face while watching a girl I wanted to be friends with smile at her boyfriend.
As someone who doesn’t ship Joyce/Dorothy at all outside of friendship…. it *feels* like she is envious of her here. She gets a paused shot of her happy looking cute, but then looks mad.
I really hope its not ‘jealous of joe’ and more general ‘joyce is happy, in a relationship and looks put together and none of those things are things I DID, and a little missing walky?
You know, even though I’m still angry at Walky for the rejection, that little whim of seeing them together again hasn’t happened, but it would be good for Dorothy to first heal all this torment she has and meet more people to the point of causing envy. to Joyce, and why not, that even Walky himself feels jealous of Dorothy’s new relationship, I know that the latter sounds unlikely, but to say that Walkerton completely forgot about the blonde…I don’t think so.
Joyce doesn’t strike me as the type to become jealous of dorothy having friends, and she’s been trying to be a bit more independent of dorothy for a while so jealousy seems unlikely.
Honestly any time something crops up and people go omg dorothy/joyce I die a little inside. Like I love them seperately, I’d love joyce to be bi, but I’ve been waiting for Joe/Joyce since roomies and I desperately want it to be endgame.
Well, they say there
“Be careful what you wish for, because it may come true”
And while Joyce may not be that jealous type, that doesn’t mean that being more independent from Dorothy can take its toll on her, the poor blonde is in trouble and if Joyce dares to say something stupid (which she would), she will you will regret
Well… good luck! (I don’t know that I think this strip is anywhere near endgame, so it’s hard to predict where it’ll end when it gets there.)
But in the meantime I would try not to let people shipping other things get you down. Easier said than done, I know, especially if you otherwise enjoy reading the comments, but lots of people multi-ship (I know folks have said they like both Joe/Joyce and Joyce/Dorothy), and no one’s hopeful squees have the power to change where the comic is going.
And right now, you’re getting loads of your ship being cute. Enjoy that! Don’t let anyone else’s wants taint it for you.
Maybe Joyce isn’t quite the type to be jealous of Dorothy having friends, but she was very possessive of Dorothy’s friendship. Demanding to “reclaim her time” when Dorothy and Walky broke up, for example
Also we honestly wouldn’t know. Joyce had some very jealous/possessive moments specifically wrt Walky, but Dorothy didn’t (and still doesn’t) really have any friends of her own?
She’s on like. Cordial terms with a lot of people. But her social circle is primarily folks who are better friends with Joyce, so. There’s nothing for Joyce to be jealous of except Dorothy’s relationship with Walky.
Hence why Dorothy at her lowest wound up going to Ruth, someone she only barely knows.
As someone who also doesn’t ship Joyce x Dorothy, let me offer this perspective:
Is there something there? Yes. Empirically, yes. To deny the possibility is simply to live in ignorance. There is a lot of evidence, it keeps piling up, and while it may be circumstantial it is very real. We must acknowledge that probably Dotty wants Joyce.
Is it a good idea? No. God no. FUCK no. It isn’t cute, and the reason it bothers you is because it’s a problem waiting to happen. It is straight up Chernobyl. When Ian Malcolm said “the worst idea in a long, sad history of bad ideas” he was talking about Dorothy and Joyce boning down. It’d make Ruth and Billie look like a strong, stable couple.
It doesn’t help that while joyce reads in a neon sign over her head **BI**
I just haven’t seen any chemistry between them romantically, nor does Dotty give me the vibe of anything other than a straight girl. Like I ship a lot of weirder stuff- they just don’t really come across to me as anything other than friends. The one instance of any kind of implication (dryers) felt really really awkward and forced, not like there was any chemistry.
Compare to Dina and Becky, who immediately struck me as having a fun chemistry to them, same with Carla and their crushes on Malaya and now Charlie- or at least the energy of wanting to see the plot follow through.
Dotty has chemistry with Jacob, had it with Walky, and we never really saw it with Danny since that lasted all of 5 minutes in-comic.
Every other character ship I’ve clocked due to the chemistry, including Liz/Joe pairing up even though it didn’t last long, and I’m capable of being *wrong* but I don’t think I am here.
I think this is very subjective. Dorothy and Joyce have *massive* chemistry as far as I’ve seen. The problem has historically been that Dorothy kind of took Joyce for granted/treated her like a project. The most recent arc has been deconstructing that and showing how needy she gets when Joyce isn’t around.
Totally respect your viewpoint, “chemistry” is a subjective thing. But gosh do I feel these two clicking lately.
Oh yeah. “Chemistry” isn’t just about romantic or sexual chemistry- it’s about what’s between two characters (or people) (or more than two). Friends need to have good chemistry too! So do compelling rivalries, mentor/protégé relationships, etc. Chemistry is what’s happening between them, the reactions, the pushes and pulls, gives and takes, the unspoken fizzing or outright explosions. Without ANY chemistry, you have a relationship based on convenience rather than anything active between the parties.
Anyway. Joyce and Dorothy have great chemistry, but personally (admittedly as an asexual person) I’ve read it as predominantly platonic. I could, however, see it as Dorothy being forced to question things about herself- including potentially wanting a queerplatonic committed relationship with Joyce (I don’t think that’s where this is going but I won’t be shocked if it does). It could also be that she’s forced to question her sexuality, or her romantic preference, or find the two don’t align as cleanly as she thought. I could certainly see this as a moment of jealousy over Joyce, which would match other things we’ve seen.
However, like those other moments we’ve seen there’s another explanation which is certainly present for her. And this time it’s jealousy of what Joyce has. Dorothy has cut off as many ties as possible and kept most relationships as a checklist… only to give up on the reason she was doing it, and do something she really regrets in approaching Walky again while he was with Lucy. (Which, ironically, probably ruined chances she might well have otherwise had- I do NOT see Lucy and Walky lasting and asking him out once it ended may have worked!)
Anyway. I’m rambling. Point being- chemistry is more than sex and romance and I definitely agree that Joyce and Dorothy have strong chemistry.
Sure, but like, Imogen definitely meant romantic chemistry specifically, and this whole aside about how Joyce and Dorothy do have chemistry as long as you don’t mean romantic chemistry seems… a wee bit misplaced?
Like it’s written as though you thought you were agreeing with or backing Imogen up, but. The only response a shipper can give to this wall of text is “okay, you don’t actually agree with me tho”. Maybe “thanks anyway”?
I mean. Heh. Expecting shippers of a ship to agree with you that it’s a terrible idea that will only end in disaster is a pretty tall order, tbqh, and that part of this perspective is nothing that hasn’t been presented before, as nauseum.
(The “there’s definitely something there” part is new, don’t usually get that from this angle, but “terrible bad idea, they should not date, it would be awful” — yeah. We’ve heard that bunches.)
Oh, I didn’t notice this was a direct response to someone. I’ve honestly been trying to mostly leave folks alone to have anti-shipper conversations amongst themselves and would not have said even this (which was still trying to be polite and neutral-ish, don’t get me wrong) if I’d noticed you were responding to Rabbit’s TL.
The main point I wanted to make is still valid I hope? Like I have been there, reading commentary that kept talking about a non-canon ship I deeply didn’t want to hear about, bc I enjoyed the rest of said commentary (Jenny Trout’s Buffy rewatch, which was full of Giles/Buffy speculation), and… ultimately I don’t think the good parts made up for how my brain kept flinching.
Maybe skipping the comment sections just on strips like this would be a happier experience for you?
Honestly you’re probably right. It stinks but I really like seeing them be cute but it feels more often than not the comments tend to go to diff ships speculating quite often in their strips (a good amount of daws ofc) so I’ll probably steer clear of comments for a while.
If it makes you feel any better, the comment sections on strips like this aren’t any fun to read either. It’s about 30% people being hopeful or in any way positive, 30% people saying those people are imagining stuff and that Dorothy and Joyce are Just Good Friends, 30% people talking about how horrible it would be if the first group were right and what an awful disgusting toxic person Dorothy is and how much Joyce should hate her.
And I know Lucy/Walky fans can’t be having fun with the comments on their strips either. I’d like to hope my own concerned speculation was at least kinder than calling the ship abusive, but I still saw other folks being really mean to Lucy, and the overall effect can’t be fun.
Hahahaha, uh, shit. You have a valid point about not reading stuff that makes you mad, I probably didn’t need to actually offer that perspective but I thought for some reason Rabbit and others in this thread might benefit from it?
Also it’s 99% hyperbole and jokes. I don’t really want to go around scolding on ships, I’m much more comfortable snarking about Dotty running into the Head Alien and becoming the villain again. Silly shit like that. I probably read as more serious cause of that dumb nuclear reactor thing I posted fuuuurther down but that was honestly just me being too into my own bit, I’d delete it if I could but eh.
If it makes you feel any better, the comment sections on strips like this aren’t any fun to read either. It’s about 30% people being hopeful or in any way positive, 30% people saying those people are imagining stuff and that Dorothy and Joyce are Just Good Friends, 30% people talking about how horrible it would be if the first group were right and what an awful disgusting toxic person Dorothy is and how much Joyce should hate her.
And I know Lucy/Walky fans can’t be having fun with the comments on their strips either. I’d like to hope my own concerned speculation was at least kinder than calling the ship abusive, but I still saw other folks being really mean to Lucy, and the overall effect can’t be fun.
Let’s try again with a reply ACTUALLY meant for you instead of Rabbit!
I probably didn’t need to actually offer that perspective but I thought for some reason Rabbit and others in this thread might benefit from it?
Yeah and THAT part is what was meant for you: the part where I would’ve left your comment alone if I’d noticed it was a reply to someone else. Because yeah, in that context, you were offering an alternate perspective to someone who I think it’s fair to assume wanted to hear it.
Like, we’re all stuck sharing one comment section, hah. People who aren’t enjoying a ship or storyline have just as much right to space here as people who are. 🙂 Like I said I’m trying more to stick to threads that I feel like are “for me”, if that makes sense.
Top level comments addressing the comic in a generalized way? Free game. Comments anywhere on the page that I agree with or would like to build off of in a positive way? Totally gonna reply. Comments asking or prompting a question that I think I have a useful answer to? Gonna reply to those too.
Threads where folks are celebrating a ship I don’t enjoy? Pass. Comment threads where they’re complaining together about something that I like? Also pass, 90% of the time. (Ideally it would be 100% of the time, even if the phrasing seems needlessly rude or hurtful. Like I would just be happier as a reader if I kept scrolling instead of engaging with those comments!)
But it’s not like this comment section has rules about this stuff. My inconsistently enforced personal rules of engagement are not universal, lol.
But yeah I misread the context of your comment and thought it was @ the whole readership rather than at Rabbit. 🙂 By all means, haha.
Idk what to tell you, but the concept of a more toxic lesbian ship than Billie/Ruth does not reduce my desire to see it happen lol. I love how toxic and messy Billie and Ruth were, I think this comic is worse for not having a relationship like that in it lol
no, you’re taking it wrong, Dorothy is just irritated that Joyce, instead of concentrating on doing the exercise correctly, is talking to Joe instead of practicing in silence, alone, as she does
yeah, especially because I’m pretty sure Becky would absolutely agree that Dotty COULD be with Joyce if she just . . . actually did anything about her feelings well . . . other than stew in them or avoid them
well, even a small start is good, i don’t think starting off with 20s when you usually jog would be that good but it’s nice that she’s trying (not that she’s necessarily as anti-putting in effort into things like walky, but it can be hard for anyone trying to make themselves healthier)
well i don’t think willis is wrapping up the story anytime soon so who knows, i don’t think there’s been any huge flash forwards other than winter break
I have been waiting for this to click–for Dorothy to realize WHY she craves Joyce needing her, WHY she starts desperately missing Joyce when Joyce actually starts giving her space, WHY she tries to mommy her in so many different ways–for months. Years. I always figured we would need it to be Dotty who realized it first–not Dorothy. I’m loving this arc where Dorothy realizes she needs Joyce.
also I respect everyone who sees no chemistry but I also think some people have clung to that “I’m pretty sure I’m a 1 on the Kinsey Scale” line (or however it goes) *very* hard, and maybe some people let a college freshman’s self-assessment of her sexuality get kind of ingrained a little too firmly into their read of her? Like, I know Dorothy seems smart, but I did, too, and I thought I was a boy for my first three years of college!
I do also kind of worry that people are going to be anti-this-ship purely because they’ve been arguing it for so long in the comments sections. No one likes being told by the narrative, “your points are valid, but we’re going in the other direction”. I’d get that.
Good points all around. Moments like these I gotta reply to the narrative with “I guess you’re right, it’s not called smarting of age after all”
If we’re gonna get a messy bisexual emergence arc I’m glad this is it. For me, my entire bi life has been complicated cocktail of feelings like this one. All in four panels. Man!
I kinda feel like parts of the commentariat crossed over the “haha I don’t like Joyce/Dorothy but it’s a silly ship that will never happen” event horizon back when Dorothy announced she was going to teach Joyce how to masturbate, and careened directly into “it shouldn’t happen because it’s bad and toxic”.
That was a base-breaking sequence and a lot of folks are never going to forgive Dorothy for it. If she and Joyce get together, most of them will probably quit the comment. (But probably not all, because hate-reading is a time-honored pastime.)
Like, not saying they’re right or wrong to feel that way; they read the sequence in a completely different way than I did, but if I read it the same way I’d probably feel similarly.
Idk, I like to think everyone’s doing their best. We all care about these characters.
Weirdly, the masturbation-teaching was odd to me but i don’t hate it or Dorothy for it. (Though I do think people mistake sexual activity for sexual attraction.) My trouble is that Dorothy does not see or treat Joyce as an equal and never has.
Even if either of them actually was bi – and despite the seeming general opinion of the commentariat that is not a given – it would be an uncomfortable ship to me with how often Dorothy seems to try to play parent-slash-boss of Joyce.
You’re welcome to that opinion but of course I don’t agree at all. I see Joyce as having no trouble standing up to Dorothy or saying no to her, and I see Dorothy as having no trouble listening to Joyce and respecting her when she says no, and I see no power imbalance whatsoever.
Or as Joyce herself put it: “Dorothy’s not the boss of whether she’s the boss of me!” when using Dorothy as an excuse to do something with Joe that she wanted to do anyway.
Tbqh I think it’s a little infantilizing of Joyce to say she’s just like. Unaware of how much power Dorothy has over her.
But if I agreed with your reading I would probably feel similarly. Spiritual incest creeps me out, spiritual parent-child incest especially, so if I felt like Dorothy was even remotely Joyce’s spiritual mom, I would not want them to ever kiss.
There are also people who have never been (romantically or sexually)interested in people of the gender x except for that one person they are interested in.
But I personally can not read romantic chemistry for shit. I do not understand what people mean when they say “they have chemistry”, so I just go by “these people seem to get along and make each other happy”
Chemistry is not only inherently subjective, it’s one of the things that motivates shipping in the first place; either because you think the characters have chemistry or because you think they would have chemistry if they ever interacted.
Like, it’s intangible. It’s part of what attracts people to one another in real life, but with fictional characters there is no objective arbiter; not even the creator.
(I’ve disagreed with plenty of creators over whether or not their canon ships have chemistry, haha.)
She literally said “I dunno probably a 1, best I can tell? I guess that could change” with her mouth and people still try to argue she’d obviously really meditated on her sexuality and knew for sure fff
Or maybe she is actually heterosexual, but biromantic. She doesn’t want to bang Joyce; she just wants to be her girlfriend and hug her and cuddle her and teach her to masturbate… okay, she totally wants to bang Joyce.
To be fair though, I’d take someone who phrased it like that a lot more seriously than someone who was more emphatic about definitely only being straight.
At least they’ve put some thought into it and aren’t just rejecting the possibility out of hand. Like, if they had noticed something, they’d be open about that.
I mean she put VERY little thought into it. She only picked a number at all because Danny asked her where she would fall on the scale, and she said, “…I dunno” before picking one.
I read that as something she’d considered before and didn’t need to think deeply about again. Saying what she’d concluded without ruling out the possibility that she could be mistaken.
Like Danny had been.
This is gonna be an agree to disagree thing. I really read her as just picking a number in that moment, rather than having thought about it before, but my main gripe is with folks who keep plucking the zero out of the surrounding sentence (“I dunno” and “I guess that estimate could change”), making it more definite than I think you could possibly argue it was.
Yeah I forgot where the scale starts. Also X was “no romantic/sexual experiences at all”, and the whole thing was behavior rather than feelings based and flawed, etc.
I wasn’t on the bandwagon, but today I suddenly start getting on it and thinking that ‘maybe…yes’,
maybe Dorothy is actually jealous, because she is romantically feeling feelings for Joyce.
Mayyyyybe?
Or maybe, she just has friendship feelings and is jealous/worried of Joyce having fun with a guy she clearly thinks is not good.
(Althought we the readers had some time with him to see that he is truly changing).
Dorothy had her own moment of realisation about Joe, when he and Joyce didn’t know she was overhearing their conversation. I think she’s less actively bothered by it being Joe specifically than she was.
There’s a lot she could be feeling here. Romantic or sexual feelings may be one of them! So might jealousy over Joyce establishing a romantic relationship after how badly Dorothy’s attempt to reconnect with Walky went. So might realising she has feelings towards Joyce that aren’t inherently sexual or romantic but where she DOES wish for a commitment between them. Or she might not want a formal commitment but is afraid of losing one of her very few relationships.
Possibly a combination. That’s where I’d put my money.
I think Dorothy was micromanaging Joyce’s life because she has no control over her own. I think Dorothy needed to ignore her own problems and decided she instead wanted to “fix” Joyce’s life, when it is not in fact broken. I think Dorothy is now feeling anger and resentment that Joyce doesn’t want the changes Dorothy is trying to force, and that Dorothy is realizing she has no control over this situation, either.
I’m still not seeing the ship (Dotty/Joyce). Like I see what others are interpreting it from, but it reads in all the ways except romance to me. Maybe I’m just too man gay though.
I don’t read romance or sexual attraction either, mostly because we’ve seen sexual/romantic attraction from both of them and it doesn’t look like this. If one or both characters actually change their minds re: their straightness or act attracted rather than just affectionate/loving I will change my position, of course. (And I may be too aroace as you may be too man gay, also.)
There’s no dialogue in this one, so I’m left trying to interpret motionless body language.
From what I can gather, it seems like Dorothy is angry at her weights for some reason. Maybe she resents the color, like she’d prefer something yellow or even beige and these are the only ones around. Maybe she’s actually angry because Joyce is wearing her pink tank top and Dorothy wishes she’d brought her pink T-shirt so they’d match, and now it’s ruined, ruined, completely ruined and it’s too awkward for her to leave for several minutes and come back in a different shirt. Maybe she’s thinking about how Joyce and Joe might potentially have sex at some point and probably won’t ask her to film it.
Joyce seems to be mocking Dorothy here. She can see her friend getting frustrated, but she can only laugh because Dorothy missed an opportunity to wear her pink shirt so they’d match, the stupid fool, and it’s all ruined now. The irony is too rich. Joyce laughs because she knows she’s bested her fallen ally, glad to be alive for this, the end of all things.
Joe’s workin’ out with his hot girlfriend, he’s fine and dandy. Oblivious to the silent war raging in this very room, he runs on his endless pathway of rubber and plastic and metal, going nowhere and content to go there with his charming company.
If this isn’t a case of jealousy at seeing the person you love with someone else I don’t know what it is. Let’s hope Dorothy don’t start avoiding Joyce so to not feel that pain.
Sometimes, when it’s overcast, you notice that it’s still also kind of sunny. You look around, it was supposed to rain, but you yourself are getting plenty of sunshine. The sun is bright in the sky, and because of the front it’s lighting up things on the ground that are surrounded by the gloom of the stormclouds. The clouds that are over you. A little ways away people are having a pleasant day, and if they’d look, they’d see you reflecting the sunlight more starkly than they can, a golden glow in front of a sea of slate. And the storm starts, a curtain of rain obscuring the sun from you and from illuminating you.
I would buy the idea that Dorothy is simply feeling bitter about how she’s handled her past relationships if panel 5 didn’t just go and zoom in on Joyce like that.
she’s mad that Joyce didn’t listen to her about “anyone” finding Joyce attractive, because she’s trying to set up Joyce and Meredith and Meredith is the “anyone”.
It might also be envy that Dorothy is feeling quite a bit (a lot?) of stress worrying about and looking out for Joyce, and she can see that Joyce is now in quite a good spot in life. (She probably still has misgivings about Joe, but he seems to be behaving, and Joyce seems happy.)
Meanwhile, Dorothy’s own life seems to be falling apart. Her grades are slipping, she gave up on Yale (and possibly her bigger dream of being Prez), she realized she misses Walky BAD, but he turned her down on getting back together, and she’s awfully close to a nervous breakdown.
So, it might simply be a “I sacrificed so much to protect you, you could at least show some more gratitude!” situation, even though Joyce has no way of knowing all of this. Dorothy probably knows that too, but emotionally it can still be very hard to reconcile that knowledge with how you’re feeling.
Yeah I’m not… I’m not calling it yet, but I am curious as to what other thing even could be going on with the framing here. What is the purpose of the misdirect?
I know we like to joke about Willis playing with our hearts, but if what some commentators have suggested is true and this is deliberate ship bait to trick us, that… would genuinely hurt kind of a lot.
At the same time I can’t imagine they put as much work into setting up Joe and Joyce as they did only to suddenly have Joyce realize she’s actually into Dorothy and dump him??? That doesn’t make sense to me either. Nor do I understand what the appeal would be of having a second cherished surprise!sapphic friend confess to Joyce only to get her heart broken.
…dare I hope for an OT3? Joyce did recently ask how Sierra’s poly relationship works???
I dunno. I kind of took the bonus strip with the pharmacist and her wife to be Willis tossing us a nod, like, “hey if you wanna interpret it that way, you’re free to imagine that someday in the far far future Dorothy and Joyce might end up together like this”. (People had already observed that the pharmacist looked like an older Joyce and her wife looks like an older Dorothy.)
But I also thought I was being told, basically, “Don’t hold your breath. If it happens it won’t be for a million years, maybe in an epilogue.” So I was not expecting Dorothy’s outburst at Jennifer about Joyce not “belonging” to her. I wasn’t expecting her to have that dream, or Joyce to think she was having recurring “definitely straight” dreams about Dorothy sneaking into her bed. I wasn’t expecting Sarah to go knocking on her door to say out loud in-universe that “we both know she’d go for it if she thought you were interested”.
(That meant a little more coming from Sarah than it has coming from Walky. Sarah didn’t decide Joyce was Gay For Dorothy unprompted or because she just thinks it’s hilarious. It’s definitely a more recent thing, brought on by Joyce telling her about the washing machine incident (“it’s wasn’t as gay as it sounds” “it honestly couldn’t be”) and her dreams.)
And I didn’t expect any of this. Dorothy’s behavior has been kinda weird ever since this scene began. For the first time in the history of the comic she called Joyce hot.
I would sooner believe we were all reading too much into things if Dorothy looked sad here, because… well… she came to spend time with Joyce and now not only is she a self-described fifth wheel, she can’t even do the one type of exercise we know is comfortable and familiar to her (either because there are only two treadmills or because she doesn’t want to further intrude by following Joyce and Joe to run on a third one). So I’d buy simple loneliness! This is an awkward situation, especially if Jacob leaves or otherwise goes off to work out by himself in a way that doesn’t advertise an interest in talking to her.
But “thinking angry thoughts”? The focus first on Joe and Joyce together, then just on Joyce? In combination I’m not sure what else she’s feeling, but I don’t buy she’s just lonely.
(Angry at herself for not going to Yale, you say? Yes, that’s a possibility. It would be more of one if she’d just decided not to go, instead of deciding not to go and also second-guessing her original career path. Like, I don’t think Dorothy currently regrets not going to Yale, except inasmuch as it would have meant saying goodbye to Joyce before Joyce could… reject her???? If that’s what she feels is happening here.)
(And we know it’s not what’s happening here; Joyce still loves and cares about her. The “I’m still here” comic was very recent. But it’s also something Joyce said to Dorothy while Dorothy was asleep, so. Can’t blame Dorothy for not hearing it.)
TL;DR: I don’t think this is yet definitively objectively undeniably romantic jealousy, but none of the other possibilities make sense to me personally, so I am in a holding pattern until tomorrow, when the blurry Patreon preview says we are swapping to Carla lol
Honestly, I QPR-ship Joyce/Dorothy, and even *I* had some serious trouble with that fifth panel. Like, if that’s shipper-bait for the romantics, it’s REALLY GOOD BAIT. Holy hell, Willis.
“Stupid Joe, listening to Joyce and taking her interests/ability/confidence/experience/fitness level into account, making her feel attractive, and making this a really fun experience for her! How is she supposed to realise that I’m right and he’s bad for her when he’s treating her with respect and kindness, and they’re having a lovely time?!
“Also, here I am making time for her, and what’s she doing?! NOT dropping everyone else to spend time with me!! Well, OK, maybe I don’t mind her not dropping everyone else – I appreciate that many people play positive roles in Joyce’s life and it’s good she has them around her – but why does HE warrant this attention? Sure, he’s pretty and has a buff body, and he’s climbable and Joyce is apparently into that, but he’s JOE. URGH.
“How is it a loser like JOE gets to be with a sweet, gorgeous, smart, funny, kind, generous, amazing person like Joyce, and I’m single? And OK, she’s also a bundle of neuroses and painfully ignorant at times, and she can be A LOT [possibly internally expressed in more ableist/judgemental terms, but I’d rather not, thank you]… How come JOYCE gets to be with somebody who sees how totally worth it she is, when I got put on a pedestal, told I couldn’t actually be struggling when THINGS ARE OVERWHELMINGLY HARD AND I’M LONELY AND COMING ADRIFT and rejected..?
“My life is falling apart at the seams and it’s ALL JOE’S FAULT!!!
“She broke up with Dryer for THIS?! After all that work I did to set them up?! Joe is going to make it weird when I stand outside the door and *platonically* listen to Joyce have an orgasm… I just know it!”
This sums up my interpretation of it pretty well, although I suspect Dorothy is also holding onto a side of “why did I both decide to dump Walky and decide to stay here instead of going to Yale, I could be coming at this from a place of post-orgasm clarity”.
I think that’s a lot more of it than the implied crush on Joyce.
She threw Walky away for nothing, since she gave up on Yale.
And her decision to stay here was tied to her thinking she had to take care of Joyce (especially after last semester’s catastrophes) and now Joyce doesn’t need her, so she threw Yale away for nothing too.
I really strongly disagree with this connection, and I sure as heck hope Willis isn’t trying to tell us Dorothy made a mistake by ending things with Danny in the exact way she did it. As she herself said, she should have done it months ago, and as she didn’t directly say but, I think, would agree, it was cowardly not to. She didn’t want to hurt him, but she also took the path of least resistance by continuing to date him when she wasn’t feeling it anymore.
Big, BIG difference between that and Walky, especially wrt the amount of genuine respect the two boys showed her.
I don’t mind that Dorothy is reconsidering her goal, but I really don’t like the idea of people crowing about it because it was “always” stupid of her to want to be president, and it was stupider to “throw away” Danny.
Danny is a great boyfriend to Sal. He was… well, I don’t think he did anything wrong with Amber, but I think they were a bad match and that Amber was a really sharp difficulty spike from his previous (and only) relationship with Dorothy. But what we saw of him with Dorothy? Not so much.
I think it’s more about Dorothy’s relationship decisions being a “path of least resistance” in BOTH ways–she stuck with Danny too long because it was the path of least resistance, and she broke up with Walky because it was also the path of least resistance (when she thought she was destined for Yale, anyway).
I’m hoping at some point here she realizes that she’s got to reconsider ALL of her goals, not just the one that’s ALSO the path of least resistance to abandon.
It’d be pretty on point for an ambitious gifted kid with big dreams to stick with that path of least resistance to her own detriment as she’s working through the transition from high school into the first year of college and growing into that larger world, after all.
I don’t really agree that breaking up with Walky was a path of least resistance thing. Neither of them wanted to break up, and they were both struggling with the fact that their “for fun, temporary” relationship couldn’t just stay that way. They were at a crossroads where they could have either taken the next step, opening up to each other and the possibility of something more real and long-term, or stopped seeing each other… and they both opted for the latter.
Walky as much as told us and her that he regretted that after the kidnapping, and I think Dorothy felt the same way — but instead she told him that he deserved to be with someone who could give him their whole heart. That’s not least resistance. That’s trying to be a good friend to someone you care about.
What’s happened SINCE has been a mess on Dorothy’s end, but I think that, while Walky’s reasoning was flawed (and for once, he wasn’t really listening to her imho), but even if he hadn’t been dating Lucy, I think telling her no would still have been the right thing to do.
Because — and now I’m going way out on a limb here, and Willis could prove me wrong in just a few strips — I don’t think she was missing Walky as much as missing herself from a few months ago, pre-trauma, when her biggest problem was slipping grades. And getting back together with an ex doesn’t transport us back in time, no matter how much we might want it to.
I’d like to say for the record that I read the part of your post in [] brackets as also part of Dorothy’s internal monologue, word-for-word. She seems like precisely the type of person who’d police even the inside of her own head for ableist terminology.
Gay recognizes gay and this is gay as shit, this is straight up how I looked at my ex when I hung out with her and her bf before I finally accepted and became ok with it some time later.
It’s somehow simultaneously very clear what’s going on with Dorothy and completely ambiguous to the point of other people thinking it’s very clear that something else is going on with Dorothy instead. Even if it’s unintentional, if I were Willis, I’d be cackling like a maniac.
Just the other day Joyce was saying she’ll still make time for Dorothy, and Dorothy wasn’t that interested. They had mac and cheese just last night. Now Dorothy is here “because Joyce said she would be here”. Maybe she genuinely did not realize Joe would also be here, but Joyce doesn’t exercise much on her own.
Like. You don’t have to agree this is shippy, but it is kind of rude to suggest the only reason anyone thinks otherwise is because they don’t know what friendship is or looks like.
Don’t have time to read through everyone’s thoughts either Dotty: Jelous of what Joyce and Joe have,Jelous that Joyce is spending time with Joe and not her, Jelous of Joe being with Joyce or all of the above.
I don’t know if the jealousy suggestions are the reason or if she’s concerned that Joyce is happy without her (I hope not! She should be happy her friend is happy) or if she’s regretting Yale.
But I do hope she goes over to Jacob and talks more about classes and internships and careers. There’s a lot to life and there’s a lot of potential friends in college, even if one of them has a boyfriend who doesn’t want you around.
Yeah, Dorothy’s just having an existential crisis.
She realized that her lifelong dream led down a dark path, because the President always has to make hard decisions and people get hurt.
She didn’t go to Yale, because she’d gone through so much with her friends, and felt a kinship with them. So she stayed, for them. But now most of her friends are finding their own ways and doing their own things.
And that includes Joyce, one of the few people that she’d thought she could count on being around because she’s always been so sheltered and naive. And who Dorothy thought she could protect and teach, so Joyce wouldn’t make bad decisions, like dating a notorious Lothario. And just last night, they’d been snuggled up together, binge-watching a series. Intimate even though not romantic.
And on that topic, it also includes her previous romantic relationships: Danny, whom she broke up with because she didn’t want to be dating her high school sweetheart because she thought she needed to grow and try out new experiences. And Walky, who broke up with *her* because he felt he was dragging her down and keeping her from reaching her true potential.
I might not be remembering those breakup details correctly, but regardless of those details, the point is that every last bit of everything I just listed is making her feel lost and alone. And frustrated, because Joyce is doing just what Dorothy was trying to show her how to avoid. And there’s probably some elements of being jealous in two different ways: of Joyce being in that heady happy early relationship state of mind (something she doesn’t have), and that this has happened so soon after she and Joyce had shared a close moment together.
No, and neither do you tbh. She was only ever a lonely girl that Head Alien lied to and manipulated and then straight-up possessed when she wasn’t actually willing to hurt Joyce irrevocably even though she believed Joyce was a monster.
Still a villain. Doing it for the wrong reasons, yes. Sympathetic, sure. Redeemed, arguably. Largely ineffectual given the scenario, certainly. But you don’t have to be pure, irredeemable evil for the sake of evil to be a villain.
mean, I just double checked and one of the three definitions each dictionary offers is just interchangeable with antagonist, i.e. the character pitted against the hero in a story, so yeah, by that definition.
But it doesn’t even sound like you’re using that definition, it just sounds like you think I think villains can’t be complex or nuanced or capable of redemption, which. Okay??
But it also sounds like you think this page (and the one that follows it) feature not only a villain but an “arguably” unredeemed villain, so like, we obviously just read completely different comics, my friend.
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I’m speechless.
So is dorothy it seems lol
Tho i wonder if she’s angry outta ‘jealousy’ or like “man, joyce doesn’t need me anymore/depending on someone else”
People are missing that it’s angry thoughtS, not just one
It could be many things at once, contradictory and otherwise
Oh, I guess “thingS”
Sorry, I’m ruined on antihistamines rn
Things like:
If she turned down Yale because Joyce needs her, and Joyce doesn’t need her, why did she turn down Yale?
Why isn’t Joyce listening to her when she says Joe’s no good for her? All she has to do is just listen and there wouldn’t be any issues?
All these thoughts and more are available in the Time-Life Anthology of Self-Doubt, now playing 24/7 in Dorothy’s head.
She told the two of them that they’re fine together when she last saw them.
She said those words, but this isn’t the look of someone who’s actually completely fine with a relationship.
Because she’s not completely fine with it, but not because they aren’t fine together, because Dorothy has *other feelings* that she hasn’t processed.
Maybe it’s the look of someone thinking, “how many things have I been wrong about?”
Plus she threw away both Danny and Walky. Now she has to watch Joyce in a pleasant relationship.
Man, people just going way out of their way to interpret Dotty’s behavior in the worst possible way, huh?
Is there a GOOD possible way to interpret it?
They definitely do. Lots and lots of “Dorothy just HATES JOY, there can be no other explanation” around these parts.
“Well, obviously, she’s feeling very sad, because of Cedric dying. Then I expect she’s feeling confused because she liked Cedric and now she likes Harry, and she can’t work out who she likes best. Then she’ll be feeling guilty, thinking it’s an insult to Cedric’s memory to be kissing Harry at all, and she’ll be worrying about what everyone else might say about her if she starts going out with Harry. And she probably can’t work out what her feelings toward Harry are anyway, because he was the one who was with Cedric when Cedric died, so that’s all very mixed up and painful. Oh, and she’s afraid she’s going to be thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she’s been flying so badly.”
One person can’t feel all that at once, they’d explode.
Leave it to Willis to create a strip with no words and still get 300 comments wow
What do they say again? A picture’s worth how many words? This has 6 whole panels of pictures!
me when that one woman takes the ONLY elliptical
Come on. We know that the problem is that there’s only one elliptical. It’s not that Kathy is one of those people that puts it on low intensity and then goes waaaaaaay too fast like she’s training for Olympic power-walking while she chuffs and huffs herself to a size 00.
Soon.
(I won’t say this is the worst thing I’ve ever done, but it’s certainly one I wouldn’t want to explain to a passerby.)
Thanks a lot Doctor, now I need to go find a washing machine aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
Snusnoon
I don’t know what I was expecting.
Oh my.
Passbyer?
I understood both references and I still want an explanation.
Passer-by. It’s already a noun.
Also the correct plural is passers-by! Just a fun bit of “oh English why” for you.
Dammit, Doctor, I choked on my tea laughing
DEATH BY SNU-SNU.
… but will it be snusnoon enufnough?
Swole-rothy
You mean theres worse? Dear Lord.
Hotter than actual
Gay awakening?
Nah, ‘reckon she’s jealous of what they have.
Reckon you’re right. Losin’ Walky hurt more in hindsight than she thought it would.
Pushing Walky away, not losing Walky. She did that all to herself.
Hard to say, technically possible I guess, but there’s also her own relationship frustrations, and her general over protection of Joyce and dislike of that relationship.
I have been trying not to jump to that conclusion.
Yeah but takes effort, doesn’t it?
Follow the data. We haven’t arrived yet.
I think if she or Joyce were gonna have one, it would’ve been when they masturbated side by side holding hands
Looks to me like it could be, she’s looking at happy and sweaty Joyce, not just looking at the large hairy man.
sorry, can’t hear you, still looking at large hairy man
–Dave, will get to rest of strip – there is a rest of strip, right? – later
Gay enjealousing
The biggest plot twist
Don’t forget, Dot was watching from pretty close up when Becky showed up and Joyce figured out she was not gay even a little bit. I think maybe she’s thinking “there’s no point falling in love.”
Your avatar is soo good for this comic.
THE SOONER YOU ADMIT YOU’RE A JELLY BELLY, THE BETTER OFF YOU’LL BE DOROTHY
Also replying to myself cause I quickly found out there are other definitions for jelly belly, in this case I’m saying jealous. She jealous.
In the context of a gym setting, probably not a bad clarification, though many of us would be aware that she does plenty of running, so it was unlikely that you were shaming her for being out-of-shape with “JELLY BELLY.”
“Ugh, Dorothy! Look at you, you’re really letting yourself go!!!”
imagine if it being sarah and dorothy gettnig together or at least bonding more over their shared jealousy of joyce in a successful relationship (hell, joyce even kissed jacob successfully too even if it wasn’t under the best terms)
The question is… are you jealous bc you want Joyce, or bc she’s happy and you aren’t.
or because she’s happy and it’s not because of something you did “for” her.
Or because its Joe making her happy…
….. yup. That’s a strong contender.
I was it to be HAPPENING BUNKER TIME…. but this is Dorothy.
That is a good question. I still haven’t figured exactly what Dorothy’s deal here is.
It’s just that Joyce’s outfit is cuter than hers, that’s all.
This is extremely true and it should be said. Dorothy is DRIPLESS this arc.
Dorothy’s workout gear has always veered much more towards practical than cute. This is actually a step up from what we’ve seen her go running in, though. No sweatband to keep her hair off her face in this scene.
I think both, but saying that she loves Joyce… I feel like we shouldn’t rush, the problem here is that Dorothy thinks that if she doesn’t help Joyce, she won’t be able to help others and it’s also the second option, just think about it, She’s been through a rough patch recently and is probably frustrated that you can’t help her like before.
Or is she certain that Joyce is making a disastrous choice but isn’t sure how/whether to stop her?
She’s sure it’s a disastrous choice, but is it really?
I’m a bit puzzled. Dorothy must be curious: does Joyce know something that I don’t? But she won’t ask.
Hmmm. Parallel with yesterday. Hmmm.
IMHO, Dorothy and Sarah ultimately have the same basic problem–neither of them are at a point where they’ve done the necessary self-reflection to figure out why they’re not actually happy with their (mostly in badly-planned self-defense) choices, and it’s causing them both some issues.
I don’t think it’s a disastrous choice. But I do think Joyce saying “A giant handsome man thinks I’m pretty!” probably feels really regressive to Dorothy and makes her feel like Joyce is thinking of Joyce as just a piece of meat, and that’s probably frustrating af to Dorothy. That, and Dorothy’s just feeling unhappily single these days.
She could be jealous, but I think it comes down to her not going to yale to stay with joyce, and that unravelling the entire future she had set for herself, and joyce not really needing her right now.
*looks at chapter title*
*looks at Dorothy*
*looks at chapter title*
I don’t think figuring it out is going to make her feel better, at least not right away. But at least she’ll be able to feel bad in a way she understands.
Dotty’s gonna be so jacked by the end of this storyline.
physically AND emotionally
–Dave, just look at those mental reps go
oh. huh
Right? How are the only people with their shit seemingly together here, are the (admittedly, recovering) Jesuszombie and the (admittedly, recovering) worst thing to hit womanhood since Phyllis Schlafly?
Dorothy, you have to speak up for what you want, even if you know you won’t get it. Just to get it out in the open so that it stops burying you, so that everybody knows where you stand and so that if it comes to light later, there won’t be any hurt feelings or accusations of you trying to manipulate people’s emotions and the situation. It’s scary, I’ve been there, but it’s better than trying to bury it and make yourself bitter.
You’re gonna have to ask for a turn on the treadmill, Dorothy. You can’t live like this any longer.
Seeing more stormy moments for Dorohty is something I don’t want to see, but with what you say, it is necessary for a solution to finally be found.
Very nicely done 😀
I mean, it is also possible, even without saying it to the person in question, to let it go and move on, as well. You just have to resolve to move forward.
She *could* just leave Joyce there and go for a jog.
does she even know what she wants, given how easily shaken she was about raidah calling out “president doing war crimes isn’t my way of helping hte world”?
(surely someone must’ve pointed it out before that politicians, let alone the president usually does ‘terrible things for the greater good’
Can someone explain what Dorothy’s problem is, I mean in this specific situation
Envy. Now, the question is whether it’s envy of Joyce or envy of Joe.
I don’t think it’s envy, but seeing that Joyce looks good makes him very angry, because he has this idea that if he doesn’t help Joyce, he won’t be able to help others, keep in mind the nightmare he had and the conversation they had recently.
He?
Did I miss something?
Dorothy is now a man. Holy shit there’s no male name matching Dorothy.
I’m gonna have to work hard on this… Theodore?
Dorotheus but that isn’t used much any more.
Dorothée is epicene, and so is Théodore (note diacritics).
Anyway, it’s up to what society decides anyway, Ann and Philippe are/were epicene too. I don’t why you wouldn’t be able to argue Dorothy the like of Timothy and get people agree.
Butler used ‘Doro’, rather successfully
–Dave, obligatory 1/0 reference: “…THEODORE!!”
Manothy
Well, she looks at Joyce staring affectionately at Joe with muscles, then looks at her less jacked arms, then looks at Joyce again, then looks upset and somewhat determined…
I certainly am leaning towards one particular direction when it comes to what I think Dorothy’s issue is.
“My arms are too long.”
Too soon
“My arms are too soon.”
I understood that reference.
Nice.
User deals 10 psychic damage.
She’s juggling dumbbells.
It does explain why she’s so upset.
+ 1
A MASTERPIECE.
The way I see it, there could be several reasons.
Jealousy of their relationship. (Dorothy was very recently rejected by Walky and she is horny)
Jealousy Joyce no longer needs her since Joe has monopolized a lot of her time as Joyce’s new BF.
Possibly jealous of Joe since she did have a somewhat gay dream involving Joyce.
Maybe she is jealous of Joe’s muscles too. Who wouldn’t be?
I feel like it’s all of these things combined.
Me. I want to, like, fit through doors…
Agree with all of those and also want to toss in:
Perhaps angry with herself for not leaving for Yale.
Joyce is the last truly good and fun part of Dorothy’s daily life; Dorothy has excised all other distractions to achieve a goal that doesn’t bring her any joy or satisfaction anymore. All she’s kept hold of is her friendship with Joyce. But now that Joyce is dating Dorothy feels like a third wheel, and it probably feels like her last genuine friendship might fade away. Also, add in that helping and spending time with Joyce was probably a big distraction/consolation for not going to Yale. Remember what dream-Dorothy said to dream-Joyce, “I’m never leaving you!” Well, I imagine Dorothy now feels like Joyce is going to leave her behind. Which Dorothy probably also realizes is unfair, but one can’t help but feel feelings.
This feels the truest to me out of anything that I’ve read here so far. Dorothy needs more than just the one pillar.
Mr. Willis can explain. At this point the rest of us can only speculate.
I think it’s a combination of things. 1.) She’s seeing Joyce in a relationship when she was recently outright rejected by Walky. 2.) She’s protective of Joyce and sees her dating Joe as doomed to end badly. 3.) She has been coping with her trauma by focusing all her nervous energy on “taking care of” Joyce, and Joyce is becoming less dependent on her. 3a.) Dorothy declined her dream of transferring to Yale to take care of Joyce, which Joyce doesn’t know about but Dorothy still resents Joyce not “needing” her as much because it makes her sacrifice unnecessary.
And now we know Dorothy’s Villain Origin story.
in this universe.
On the Patreon comments for this strip someone proposed that this is how Dorothy becomes a femcel, and starts a podcast, and I cannot overstate how fucking funny the idea of Dorothy in Oakleys, screaming into her phone in a car, is to me
(OR good ol’ Dexter/the Head Alien/some sort of eldritch equivalent could show up with perfect dramatic timing, obviously. There’s a deep poetry to the idea that Dorothy always breaks bad for the one she loves.)
Ooh, that’s good. “Breaking Bad Across The Walkyverse” starring Dorothy Keener.
Joe has some nice arms.
I think she’s envious that Joe and Joyce are a happy couple and she doesn’t have that.
Joyce is a “her”, not a “that”.
she’s all that
and then some.
…hm.
Well. Whatever the other shoe is here, maybe it’ll drop soon? 🤔
The other shoe already dropped, we just don’t have a clue what kind of shoe or what size it is.
Heh.
I guess I just don’t… trust it? A lot of Dorothy’s behavior this arc has been potentially jealous (her confrontation with Jennifer springs to mind), but Willis has also lampshaded it at least twice now with a comparison to Ann and Leslie from Parks and Recreation, who were “tragically both heterosexual”, despite Leslie’s tendency to say real gay things about Ann all the time.
Then too, it mostly feels like Joyce has been drifting away from Dorothy and becoming more into Joe, something Leslie didn’t really do with Ben (the show joked repeatedly that she loved Ben but she REALLY loved Ann), and it feels like if anything we are setting up another scene where a cherished lady friend of Joyce confesses feelings to her only to be heartbroken by Joyce not reciprocating.
I dunno. Becky’s jealousy aside, I never really got the sense that Joyce was attracted to Dorothy.
I’d kind of like them to get together, if only because I’d love to see this particular pattern of lampshading subvert my expectations for once by actually going somewhere. But I have no idea what the resulting relationship would actually look like, when it’s no longer stuff like “haha Dorothy and Joyce roleplayed being married in our gender class, Becky, try not to explode!”
If that makes sense.
(Also I am Not looking forward to more people yelling about how abusive Dorothy obviously is and how Joyce could never be an equal while dating her. The very idea makes me tired.)
like. I think Joyce is attracted to Sal. I think you could say that fairly. I dunno if she’s ever said Dorothy was hot, instead of just “wonderful amazing way too good for Walky” (which, don’t get me wrong, was easy to apply a queer jealous reading to — but we haven’t had that kind of moment from Joyce in a whiiiile).
Man I might just. Skip commentaries entirely on strips that are at all potentially Joyce/Dorothy, and maybe strips that feature Dorothy period. It is just not fun to read most of the comic reactions to her right now. Alternate Universe Dorothy who just hates her friend’s happiness and deserves to die bitter and alone really sucks.
Working out sure sucks, huh, Dotty? You need something that’ll let you solve this Joe problem TODAY, not years from now when the beautiful Joyce has already been violated by his foul touch in every way possible and you receive a GAME OVER screen for your failure to Save her!
Well have I got a deal for YOU. Here at DEXX-GEN INDUSTRIES (parent company of the hit cartoon Dexter and Monkey Master), we’ve been working to build a military of tomorrow! A military of ALL tomorrows, actually…
Daisy is a good gravatar for this
(I originally wasn’t too hot on this particular gravatar pull but she’s grown on me.
…hahaha even that sounds vaguely Head Alien oh no)
she regrets leaving walky
Oh yeah, that definity could be it. Great insight. Thank you.
well she did attempt? to make a pass at walky but walky turned him down b/c he’s not willing to cheat on his current gf
I’m also pretty sure that was the point in the process that really broke Dorothy about it–“Wait, he’s NOT just a vapid goofy eye candy, he actually makes good choices when the chips are down? Shit.”
Nah, she knew that a long time ago. That’s why she actually fell in love with him.
I imagine she knew, but that moment made it an unavoidable truth instead of something she could pretend was just relationship-feels.
This — though she’s not consciously thinking it (‘cause her head would explode).
That’s an interesting interpretation of a character who has said out loud with her mouth that she regrets leaving Walky.
One angry montage with determination music later and Dotty is FUKKN RIPPED
I think someone called her “Swollothy” the other day?
That’s pretty good but it also kinda sounds like somethin else…
Dorothy does canonically swallow, so
plays “Strong in the Real Way” on the Hacked Muzak
I’ve always actually imagined Deedee Magno Hall as Dorothy’s voice, so this tracks.
Kat Micucci for me! Wait that’s Sadie
sneakily changes it to Ballad of a Thin Man
or Mr. Brightside, I guess, to be less mean and also call back to several arcs ago
Gotdang i love that song, was super into Dylan back in highschool
Yes!
In the last panel Dorothy looks like the yellow watchman goby I had as a kid. He/she/they? (I can’t recall if this a hermaphrodic species) always looked very grumpy – but that was just how its mouth was. It built a cool lair down in the sand and would just wait down there for food and then man would it eat.
Dorothy’s about to become the first US président bodybuilder
Only because Arnold can’t run.
She could go to him for tips tho
Oh hey she’s actually lifting weights–– SHE’S ACTUALLY LIFTING WEIGHTS?!
I know time travel isn’t possible, but I neeeeeeeeeeeeeed it!!
She will need lot of protein. Like 2lb meat per day…
For the past 2+ weeks, I’ve been imagining a 6th person in the exercise room, and they’re you and you’re thinking this the whole time.
How much can Joe or Jacob provide?
Look I don’t know if it’s intended to be read this way, or if I’m just seeing it through the lens of my own personal experiences, but this is the gayest comic strip I’ve ever seen.
Source: as a young lesbian I definitely made that face while watching a girl I wanted to be friends with smile at her boyfriend.
As someone who doesn’t ship Joyce/Dorothy at all outside of friendship…. it *feels* like she is envious of her here. She gets a paused shot of her happy looking cute, but then looks mad.
I really hope its not ‘jealous of joe’ and more general ‘joyce is happy, in a relationship and looks put together and none of those things are things I DID, and a little missing walky?
You know, even though I’m still angry at Walky for the rejection, that little whim of seeing them together again hasn’t happened, but it would be good for Dorothy to first heal all this torment she has and meet more people to the point of causing envy. to Joyce, and why not, that even Walky himself feels jealous of Dorothy’s new relationship, I know that the latter sounds unlikely, but to say that Walkerton completely forgot about the blonde…I don’t think so.
Joyce doesn’t strike me as the type to become jealous of dorothy having friends, and she’s been trying to be a bit more independent of dorothy for a while so jealousy seems unlikely.
Honestly any time something crops up and people go omg dorothy/joyce I die a little inside. Like I love them seperately, I’d love joyce to be bi, but I’ve been waiting for Joe/Joyce since roomies and I desperately want it to be endgame.
I think I brainfarted on the actual name of the comic, I started reading them all at once ages ago, not quite when they originally came out
Well, they say there
“Be careful what you wish for, because it may come true”
And while Joyce may not be that jealous type, that doesn’t mean that being more independent from Dorothy can take its toll on her, the poor blonde is in trouble and if Joyce dares to say something stupid (which she would), she will you will regret
Well… good luck! (I don’t know that I think this strip is anywhere near endgame, so it’s hard to predict where it’ll end when it gets there.)
But in the meantime I would try not to let people shipping other things get you down. Easier said than done, I know, especially if you otherwise enjoy reading the comments, but lots of people multi-ship (I know folks have said they like both Joe/Joyce and Joyce/Dorothy), and no one’s hopeful squees have the power to change where the comic is going.
And right now, you’re getting loads of your ship being cute. Enjoy that! Don’t let anyone else’s wants taint it for you.
Maybe Joyce isn’t quite the type to be jealous of Dorothy having friends, but she was very possessive of Dorothy’s friendship. Demanding to “reclaim her time” when Dorothy and Walky broke up, for example
Also we honestly wouldn’t know. Joyce had some very jealous/possessive moments specifically wrt Walky, but Dorothy didn’t (and still doesn’t) really have any friends of her own?
She’s on like. Cordial terms with a lot of people. But her social circle is primarily folks who are better friends with Joyce, so. There’s nothing for Joyce to be jealous of except Dorothy’s relationship with Walky.
Hence why Dorothy at her lowest wound up going to Ruth, someone she only barely knows.
Honestly, her response to Joyce fawning over Joe’s muscles…is to start working out harder. Like she wants Joyce to be looking her muscles.
I feel like Willis is holding a cartoonishly large “Dorothy has a crush on Joyce” sign over her head at this point, lol.
That’s the whole comic
I mean, you’re not wrong…
As someone who also doesn’t ship Joyce x Dorothy, let me offer this perspective:
Is there something there? Yes. Empirically, yes. To deny the possibility is simply to live in ignorance. There is a lot of evidence, it keeps piling up, and while it may be circumstantial it is very real. We must acknowledge that probably Dotty wants Joyce.
Is it a good idea? No. God no. FUCK no. It isn’t cute, and the reason it bothers you is because it’s a problem waiting to happen. It is straight up Chernobyl. When Ian Malcolm said “the worst idea in a long, sad history of bad ideas” he was talking about Dorothy and Joyce boning down. It’d make Ruth and Billie look like a strong, stable couple.
It doesn’t help that while joyce reads in a neon sign over her head **BI**
I just haven’t seen any chemistry between them romantically, nor does Dotty give me the vibe of anything other than a straight girl. Like I ship a lot of weirder stuff- they just don’t really come across to me as anything other than friends. The one instance of any kind of implication (dryers) felt really really awkward and forced, not like there was any chemistry.
Compare to Dina and Becky, who immediately struck me as having a fun chemistry to them, same with Carla and their crushes on Malaya and now Charlie- or at least the energy of wanting to see the plot follow through.
Dotty has chemistry with Jacob, had it with Walky, and we never really saw it with Danny since that lasted all of 5 minutes in-comic.
Every other character ship I’ve clocked due to the chemistry, including Liz/Joe pairing up even though it didn’t last long, and I’m capable of being *wrong* but I don’t think I am here.
I think this is very subjective. Dorothy and Joyce have *massive* chemistry as far as I’ve seen. The problem has historically been that Dorothy kind of took Joyce for granted/treated her like a project. The most recent arc has been deconstructing that and showing how needy she gets when Joyce isn’t around.
Totally respect your viewpoint, “chemistry” is a subjective thing. But gosh do I feel these two clicking lately.
Oh yeah. “Chemistry” isn’t just about romantic or sexual chemistry- it’s about what’s between two characters (or people) (or more than two). Friends need to have good chemistry too! So do compelling rivalries, mentor/protégé relationships, etc. Chemistry is what’s happening between them, the reactions, the pushes and pulls, gives and takes, the unspoken fizzing or outright explosions. Without ANY chemistry, you have a relationship based on convenience rather than anything active between the parties.
Anyway. Joyce and Dorothy have great chemistry, but personally (admittedly as an asexual person) I’ve read it as predominantly platonic. I could, however, see it as Dorothy being forced to question things about herself- including potentially wanting a queerplatonic committed relationship with Joyce (I don’t think that’s where this is going but I won’t be shocked if it does). It could also be that she’s forced to question her sexuality, or her romantic preference, or find the two don’t align as cleanly as she thought. I could certainly see this as a moment of jealousy over Joyce, which would match other things we’ve seen.
However, like those other moments we’ve seen there’s another explanation which is certainly present for her. And this time it’s jealousy of what Joyce has. Dorothy has cut off as many ties as possible and kept most relationships as a checklist… only to give up on the reason she was doing it, and do something she really regrets in approaching Walky again while he was with Lucy. (Which, ironically, probably ruined chances she might well have otherwise had- I do NOT see Lucy and Walky lasting and asking him out once it ended may have worked!)
Anyway. I’m rambling. Point being- chemistry is more than sex and romance and I definitely agree that Joyce and Dorothy have strong chemistry.
eros vs agape
–Dave, as long as the strip’s bein’ very Greek
Sure, but like, Imogen definitely meant romantic chemistry specifically, and this whole aside about how Joyce and Dorothy do have chemistry as long as you don’t mean romantic chemistry seems… a wee bit misplaced?
Like it’s written as though you thought you were agreeing with or backing Imogen up, but. The only response a shipper can give to this wall of text is “okay, you don’t actually agree with me tho”. Maybe “thanks anyway”?
The thing with the long sad history of bad ideas is that there is always further down to go.
I mean. Heh. Expecting shippers of a ship to agree with you that it’s a terrible idea that will only end in disaster is a pretty tall order, tbqh, and that part of this perspective is nothing that hasn’t been presented before, as nauseum.
(The “there’s definitely something there” part is new, don’t usually get that from this angle, but “terrible bad idea, they should not date, it would be awful” — yeah. We’ve heard that bunches.)
*ad nauseum thanks autocorrect you’re a pal
Ad nauseam. Nausea, nauseae, nauseae, nauseam, nausea…
Oh, I didn’t notice this was a direct response to someone. I’ve honestly been trying to mostly leave folks alone to have anti-shipper conversations amongst themselves and would not have said even this (which was still trying to be polite and neutral-ish, don’t get me wrong) if I’d noticed you were responding to Rabbit’s TL.
The main point I wanted to make is still valid I hope? Like I have been there, reading commentary that kept talking about a non-canon ship I deeply didn’t want to hear about, bc I enjoyed the rest of said commentary (Jenny Trout’s Buffy rewatch, which was full of Giles/Buffy speculation), and… ultimately I don’t think the good parts made up for how my brain kept flinching.
Maybe skipping the comment sections just on strips like this would be a happier experience for you?
Honestly you’re probably right. It stinks but I really like seeing them be cute but it feels more often than not the comments tend to go to diff ships speculating quite often in their strips (a good amount of daws ofc) so I’ll probably steer clear of comments for a while.
If it makes you feel any better, the comment sections on strips like this aren’t any fun to read either. It’s about 30% people being hopeful or in any way positive, 30% people saying those people are imagining stuff and that Dorothy and Joyce are Just Good Friends, 30% people talking about how horrible it would be if the first group were right and what an awful disgusting toxic person Dorothy is and how much Joyce should hate her.
And I know Lucy/Walky fans can’t be having fun with the comments on their strips either. I’d like to hope my own concerned speculation was at least kinder than calling the ship abusive, but I still saw other folks being really mean to Lucy, and the overall effect can’t be fun.
Like. Sadly none of us are winning here.
I don’t even really ship any of these people and I still the hatred aimed at these characters over relatively minor flaws really frustrating.
Yeah it’s just exhausting and not nice to read.
Annnnd misremembered the actual content of the comment, confusing it with the one I made at Rabbit, orz
Okay too late for DoA comments, time to go to bed
Hahahaha, uh, shit. You have a valid point about not reading stuff that makes you mad, I probably didn’t need to actually offer that perspective but I thought for some reason Rabbit and others in this thread might benefit from it?
Also it’s 99% hyperbole and jokes. I don’t really want to go around scolding on ships, I’m much more comfortable snarking about Dotty running into the Head Alien and becoming the villain again. Silly shit like that. I probably read as more serious cause of that dumb nuclear reactor thing I posted fuuuurther down but that was honestly just me being too into my own bit, I’d delete it if I could but eh.
If it makes you feel any better, the comment sections on strips like this aren’t any fun to read either. It’s about 30% people being hopeful or in any way positive, 30% people saying those people are imagining stuff and that Dorothy and Joyce are Just Good Friends, 30% people talking about how horrible it would be if the first group were right and what an awful disgusting toxic person Dorothy is and how much Joyce should hate her.
And I know Lucy/Walky fans can’t be having fun with the comments on their strips either. I’d like to hope my own concerned speculation was at least kinder than calling the ship abusive, but I still saw other folks being really mean to Lucy, and the overall effect can’t be fun.
Like. Sadly none of us are winning here.
Let’s try again with a reply ACTUALLY meant for you instead of Rabbit!
I probably didn’t need to actually offer that perspective but I thought for some reason Rabbit and others in this thread might benefit from it?
Yeah and THAT part is what was meant for you: the part where I would’ve left your comment alone if I’d noticed it was a reply to someone else. Because yeah, in that context, you were offering an alternate perspective to someone who I think it’s fair to assume wanted to hear it.
Like, we’re all stuck sharing one comment section, hah. People who aren’t enjoying a ship or storyline have just as much right to space here as people who are. 🙂 Like I said I’m trying more to stick to threads that I feel like are “for me”, if that makes sense.
Top level comments addressing the comic in a generalized way? Free game. Comments anywhere on the page that I agree with or would like to build off of in a positive way? Totally gonna reply. Comments asking or prompting a question that I think I have a useful answer to? Gonna reply to those too.
Threads where folks are celebrating a ship I don’t enjoy? Pass. Comment threads where they’re complaining together about something that I like? Also pass, 90% of the time. (Ideally it would be 100% of the time, even if the phrasing seems needlessly rude or hurtful. Like I would just be happier as a reader if I kept scrolling instead of engaging with those comments!)
But it’s not like this comment section has rules about this stuff. My inconsistently enforced personal rules of engagement are not universal, lol.
But yeah I misread the context of your comment and thought it was @ the whole readership rather than at Rabbit. 🙂 By all means, haha.
Idk what to tell you, but the concept of a more toxic lesbian ship than Billie/Ruth does not reduce my desire to see it happen lol. I love how toxic and messy Billie and Ruth were, I think this comic is worse for not having a relationship like that in it lol
no, you’re taking it wrong, Dorothy is just irritated that Joyce, instead of concentrating on doing the exercise correctly, is talking to Joe instead of practicing in silence, alone, as she does
This is a good take.
oh no the jealousies
Man I just do not give a damn about Dorothy’s lil jealous crush with how rude and mommying she is to Joyce.
Awww Sad
Seems pretty gay
maybe she and becky can bond over not being able to be with joyce XD
Funny as that would be, I think it would just make Becky angies
something something the audacity of this bony poindexter binch
yeah, especially because I’m pretty sure Becky would absolutely agree that Dotty COULD be with Joyce if she just . . . actually did anything about her feelings well . . . other than stew in them or avoid them
Hum… Good
Those look like, what, 5’s? At most? Channel your anger into putting up a less sad amount of weight, Dorothy.
Repetition is important to warm up
well, even a small start is good, i don’t think starting off with 20s when you usually jog would be that good but it’s nice that she’s trying (not that she’s necessarily as anti-putting in effort into things like walky, but it can be hard for anyone trying to make themselves healthier)
[chanting] pining pining pining pining
pining pining pining pining!!!
for her FJORDS
–Dave, singing in the choir invisible
Oh I am so excited for the chaos that will ensue when Joyce and Dorothy learn their feelings for each other
Also the pining is cute
For all we know Dorothy may fall for Jacob first, whatever comes of this is anyone’s guess. But hopefully, a ship be sailin’ <3
Also yee, very cute ^^
Joyce x Dorothy isn’t a ship, it’s just a nuclear reactor going into prompt criticality
at the very least they’d prolly benefit from becoming friends with each other lol
Dorothy might have rebalanced her mental status, but she’s still lonely and unsatisfied with her life!
Is this comic going to be around long enough to work out the ten different issues that Dorothy is working through here?
well i don’t think willis is wrapping up the story anytime soon so who knows, i don’t think there’s been any huge flash forwards other than winter break
YESSSS
I have been waiting for this to click–for Dorothy to realize WHY she craves Joyce needing her, WHY she starts desperately missing Joyce when Joyce actually starts giving her space, WHY she tries to mommy her in so many different ways–for months. Years. I always figured we would need it to be Dotty who realized it first–not Dorothy. I’m loving this arc where Dorothy realizes she needs Joyce.
*Not Joyce.
also I respect everyone who sees no chemistry but I also think some people have clung to that “I’m pretty sure I’m a 1 on the Kinsey Scale” line (or however it goes) *very* hard, and maybe some people let a college freshman’s self-assessment of her sexuality get kind of ingrained a little too firmly into their read of her? Like, I know Dorothy seems smart, but I did, too, and I thought I was a boy for my first three years of college!
the girl is LITERALLY subconsciously trying to get buff to impress Joyce i cannot even handle this amount of pining
I do also kind of worry that people are going to be anti-this-ship purely because they’ve been arguing it for so long in the comments sections. No one likes being told by the narrative, “your points are valid, but we’re going in the other direction”. I’d get that.
Good points all around. Moments like these I gotta reply to the narrative with “I guess you’re right, it’s not called smarting of age after all”
If we’re gonna get a messy bisexual emergence arc I’m glad this is it. For me, my entire bi life has been complicated cocktail of feelings like this one. All in four panels. Man!
Dorothy: I have feelings for you Joyce
Joyce: I have feelings for you dorothy
Comments: what could this mean?
but there are just so many different feelings it could be! :0 /j
I kinda feel like parts of the commentariat crossed over the “haha I don’t like Joyce/Dorothy but it’s a silly ship that will never happen” event horizon back when Dorothy announced she was going to teach Joyce how to masturbate, and careened directly into “it shouldn’t happen because it’s bad and toxic”.
That was a base-breaking sequence and a lot of folks are never going to forgive Dorothy for it. If she and Joyce get together, most of them will probably quit the comment. (But probably not all, because hate-reading is a time-honored pastime.)
Like, not saying they’re right or wrong to feel that way; they read the sequence in a completely different way than I did, but if I read it the same way I’d probably feel similarly.
Idk, I like to think everyone’s doing their best. We all care about these characters.
Dead ass if dotty/joyce is endgame, Dryer needs to be the flower girl at the wedding.
Snorfle. I laughed!
Weirdly, the masturbation-teaching was odd to me but i don’t hate it or Dorothy for it. (Though I do think people mistake sexual activity for sexual attraction.) My trouble is that Dorothy does not see or treat Joyce as an equal and never has.
Even if either of them actually was bi – and despite the seeming general opinion of the commentariat that is not a given – it would be an uncomfortable ship to me with how often Dorothy seems to try to play parent-slash-boss of Joyce.
You’re welcome to that opinion but of course I don’t agree at all. I see Joyce as having no trouble standing up to Dorothy or saying no to her, and I see Dorothy as having no trouble listening to Joyce and respecting her when she says no, and I see no power imbalance whatsoever.
Or as Joyce herself put it: “Dorothy’s not the boss of whether she’s the boss of me!” when using Dorothy as an excuse to do something with Joe that she wanted to do anyway.
Tbqh I think it’s a little infantilizing of Joyce to say she’s just like. Unaware of how much power Dorothy has over her.
But if I agreed with your reading I would probably feel similarly. Spiritual incest creeps me out, spiritual parent-child incest especially, so if I felt like Dorothy was even remotely Joyce’s spiritual mom, I would not want them to ever kiss.
So, sympathy?? If this goes in that direction.
There are also people who have never been (romantically or sexually)interested in people of the gender x except for that one person they are interested in.
But I personally can not read romantic chemistry for shit. I do not understand what people mean when they say “they have chemistry”, so I just go by “these people seem to get along and make each other happy”
Isn’t that all “chemistry” is? Nobody ever explained it to me either, but it seems accurate?
I’m not good at reading it either, but if that was all it was, there would be no difference between friends and romantic partners.
Chemistry is not only inherently subjective, it’s one of the things that motivates shipping in the first place; either because you think the characters have chemistry or because you think they would have chemistry if they ever interacted.
Like, it’s intangible. It’s part of what attracts people to one another in real life, but with fictional characters there is no objective arbiter; not even the creator.
(I’ve disagreed with plenty of creators over whether or not their canon ships have chemistry, haha.)
She literally said “I dunno probably a 1, best I can tell? I guess that could change” with her mouth and people still try to argue she’d obviously really meditated on her sexuality and knew for sure fff
“… I dunno. Probably a zero, best I can tell? I guess that estimate could change.”
I think she’s rounded up to 1 now.
Or maybe she is actually heterosexual, but biromantic. She doesn’t want to bang Joyce; she just wants to be her girlfriend and hug her and cuddle her and teach her to masturbate… okay, she totally wants to bang Joyce.
She always uses that dryer now.. for some reason.
Pff fair enough. I’m not big on Kinsey so I forgot it started at 0 instead of 1.
To be fair though, I’d take someone who phrased it like that a lot more seriously than someone who was more emphatic about definitely only being straight.
At least they’ve put some thought into it and aren’t just rejecting the possibility out of hand. Like, if they had noticed something, they’d be open about that.
I mean she put VERY little thought into it. She only picked a number at all because Danny asked her where she would fall on the scale, and she said, “…I dunno” before picking one.
I read that as something she’d considered before and didn’t need to think deeply about again. Saying what she’d concluded without ruling out the possibility that she could be mistaken.
Like Danny had been.
This is gonna be an agree to disagree thing. I really read her as just picking a number in that moment, rather than having thought about it before, but my main gripe is with folks who keep plucking the zero out of the surrounding sentence (“I dunno” and “I guess that estimate could change”), making it more definite than I think you could possibly argue it was.
1, you say? No homo is 0, not 1. (Teh ghey is 6; “I don’t see gender” is 3.)
Yeah I forgot where the scale starts. Also X was “no romantic/sexual experiences at all”, and the whole thing was behavior rather than feelings based and flawed, etc.
And then some people have no place on that scale at all! Because, you know, ace.
That is actually what the X is for, Ftr.
oh?
Mommy’s angry. Empty nest syndrome?
So sad how nobody’s content to let Joyce live her life. Like, oh wow, she’s making her own decisions and putting herself first? NOT ON MY WATCH!
(Also looking directly back at you, Sarah)
*claps* This is OFTEN how I feel.
Joyce isn’t just falling for Joe because his arms are almost the size of her torso, Dorothy.
Probably doesn’t hurt, tho 💅
I wasn’t on the bandwagon, but today I suddenly start getting on it and thinking that ‘maybe…yes’,
maybe Dorothy is actually jealous, because she is romantically feeling feelings for Joyce.
Mayyyyybe?
Or maybe, she just has friendship feelings and is jealous/worried of Joyce having fun with a guy she clearly thinks is not good.
(Althought we the readers had some time with him to see that he is truly changing).
Dorothy had her own moment of realisation about Joe, when he and Joyce didn’t know she was overhearing their conversation. I think she’s less actively bothered by it being Joe specifically than she was.
There’s a lot she could be feeling here. Romantic or sexual feelings may be one of them! So might jealousy over Joyce establishing a romantic relationship after how badly Dorothy’s attempt to reconnect with Walky went. So might realising she has feelings towards Joyce that aren’t inherently sexual or romantic but where she DOES wish for a commitment between them. Or she might not want a formal commitment but is afraid of losing one of her very few relationships.
Possibly a combination. That’s where I’d put my money.
There are only two treadmills and she wanted to do cardio today.
I think Dorothy was micromanaging Joyce’s life because she has no control over her own. I think Dorothy needed to ignore her own problems and decided she instead wanted to “fix” Joyce’s life, when it is not in fact broken. I think Dorothy is now feeling anger and resentment that Joyce doesn’t want the changes Dorothy is trying to force, and that Dorothy is realizing she has no control over this situation, either.
This for me! If Joyce doesn’t need fixing, and she doesn’t, Dorothy is left with only her own problems, which currently feel insoluble to her.
I’m still not seeing the ship (Dotty/Joyce). Like I see what others are interpreting it from, but it reads in all the ways except romance to me. Maybe I’m just too man gay though.
I don’t read romance or sexual attraction either, mostly because we’ve seen sexual/romantic attraction from both of them and it doesn’t look like this. If one or both characters actually change their minds re: their straightness or act attracted rather than just affectionate/loving I will change my position, of course. (And I may be too aroace as you may be too man gay, also.)
I mean, I will argue that Dorothy dreamed she and Joyce were riding a horse together.
Horse riding. Truly the peak of gayness.
Wait, is Dorothy mad that Joyce is doing fine without her input or is she actually jealous of Joe?
I’d say both and more
Dotty is starting to realize maybe she wants to be the step-sister friend instead of the mom friend.
*Hoots and runs before being tarred and feathered*
Instead of sitting on dryers pantsless she’s climbing into them now
There’s no dialogue in this one, so I’m left trying to interpret motionless body language.
From what I can gather, it seems like Dorothy is angry at her weights for some reason. Maybe she resents the color, like she’d prefer something yellow or even beige and these are the only ones around. Maybe she’s actually angry because Joyce is wearing her pink tank top and Dorothy wishes she’d brought her pink T-shirt so they’d match, and now it’s ruined, ruined, completely ruined and it’s too awkward for her to leave for several minutes and come back in a different shirt. Maybe she’s thinking about how Joyce and Joe might potentially have sex at some point and probably won’t ask her to film it.
Joyce seems to be mocking Dorothy here. She can see her friend getting frustrated, but she can only laugh because Dorothy missed an opportunity to wear her pink shirt so they’d match, the stupid fool, and it’s all ruined now. The irony is too rich. Joyce laughs because she knows she’s bested her fallen ally, glad to be alive for this, the end of all things.
Joe’s workin’ out with his hot girlfriend, he’s fine and dandy. Oblivious to the silent war raging in this very room, he runs on his endless pathway of rubber and plastic and metal, going nowhere and content to go there with his charming company.
Idk, I can’t read this fuckin’ mine show.
I laughed, and you deserve to know that. 😆
If this isn’t a case of jealousy at seeing the person you love with someone else I don’t know what it is. Let’s hope Dorothy don’t start avoiding Joyce so to not feel that pain.
Hey speaking of Dorothy, what’s literally anyone else up to right now?
Not to break the sacred Patreon covenant but you’re gonna love tomorrow’s strip. I mean this sincerely.
I hope it’s Leslie
Over in QC, Steve is eating cereal.
Sometimes, when it’s overcast, you notice that it’s still also kind of sunny. You look around, it was supposed to rain, but you yourself are getting plenty of sunshine. The sun is bright in the sky, and because of the front it’s lighting up things on the ground that are surrounded by the gloom of the stormclouds. The clouds that are over you. A little ways away people are having a pleasant day, and if they’d look, they’d see you reflecting the sunlight more starkly than they can, a golden glow in front of a sea of slate. And the storm starts, a curtain of rain obscuring the sun from you and from illuminating you.
misplaced, sorry. didn’t [cancel reply] hard enough i guess
I would buy the idea that Dorothy is simply feeling bitter about how she’s handled her past relationships if panel 5 didn’t just go and zoom in on Joyce like that.
She’s mad at Joyce for being happy and is gonna bean her in the skull with that weight. Confirmed.
*Cornfield.
–Dave, this comment is not about unexpressed wishing
Expressing love by throwing toys at her head – tolerable.
Expressing love by throwing barbells at her head – intolerable.
she’s mad that Joyce didn’t listen to her about “anyone” finding Joyce attractive, because she’s trying to set up Joyce and Meredith and Meredith is the “anyone”.
It might also be envy that Dorothy is feeling quite a bit (a lot?) of stress worrying about and looking out for Joyce, and she can see that Joyce is now in quite a good spot in life. (She probably still has misgivings about Joe, but he seems to be behaving, and Joyce seems happy.)
Meanwhile, Dorothy’s own life seems to be falling apart. Her grades are slipping, she gave up on Yale (and possibly her bigger dream of being Prez), she realized she misses Walky BAD, but he turned her down on getting back together, and she’s awfully close to a nervous breakdown.
So, it might simply be a “I sacrificed so much to protect you, you could at least show some more gratitude!” situation, even though Joyce has no way of knowing all of this. Dorothy probably knows that too, but emotionally it can still be very hard to reconcile that knowledge with how you’re feeling.
And the way Joe’s bicep is centered and then Dorothy angrily goes back to lifting her mini-weights.
It’s so obvious, we can’t even call it a mistake.
Yeah I’m not… I’m not calling it yet, but I am curious as to what other thing even could be going on with the framing here. What is the purpose of the misdirect?
I know we like to joke about Willis playing with our hearts, but if what some commentators have suggested is true and this is deliberate ship bait to trick us, that… would genuinely hurt kind of a lot.
At the same time I can’t imagine they put as much work into setting up Joe and Joyce as they did only to suddenly have Joyce realize she’s actually into Dorothy and dump him??? That doesn’t make sense to me either. Nor do I understand what the appeal would be of having a second cherished surprise!sapphic friend confess to Joyce only to get her heart broken.
…dare I hope for an OT3? Joyce did recently ask how Sierra’s poly relationship works???
I dunno. I kind of took the bonus strip with the pharmacist and her wife to be Willis tossing us a nod, like, “hey if you wanna interpret it that way, you’re free to imagine that someday in the far far future Dorothy and Joyce might end up together like this”. (People had already observed that the pharmacist looked like an older Joyce and her wife looks like an older Dorothy.)
But I also thought I was being told, basically, “Don’t hold your breath. If it happens it won’t be for a million years, maybe in an epilogue.” So I was not expecting Dorothy’s outburst at Jennifer about Joyce not “belonging” to her. I wasn’t expecting her to have that dream, or Joyce to think she was having recurring “definitely straight” dreams about Dorothy sneaking into her bed. I wasn’t expecting Sarah to go knocking on her door to say out loud in-universe that “we both know she’d go for it if she thought you were interested”.
(That meant a little more coming from Sarah than it has coming from Walky. Sarah didn’t decide Joyce was Gay For Dorothy unprompted or because she just thinks it’s hilarious. It’s definitely a more recent thing, brought on by Joyce telling her about the washing machine incident (“it’s wasn’t as gay as it sounds” “it honestly couldn’t be”) and her dreams.)
And I didn’t expect any of this. Dorothy’s behavior has been kinda weird ever since this scene began. For the first time in the history of the comic she called Joyce hot.
I would sooner believe we were all reading too much into things if Dorothy looked sad here, because… well… she came to spend time with Joyce and now not only is she a self-described fifth wheel, she can’t even do the one type of exercise we know is comfortable and familiar to her (either because there are only two treadmills or because she doesn’t want to further intrude by following Joyce and Joe to run on a third one). So I’d buy simple loneliness! This is an awkward situation, especially if Jacob leaves or otherwise goes off to work out by himself in a way that doesn’t advertise an interest in talking to her.
But “thinking angry thoughts”? The focus first on Joe and Joyce together, then just on Joyce? In combination I’m not sure what else she’s feeling, but I don’t buy she’s just lonely.
(Angry at herself for not going to Yale, you say? Yes, that’s a possibility. It would be more of one if she’d just decided not to go, instead of deciding not to go and also second-guessing her original career path. Like, I don’t think Dorothy currently regrets not going to Yale, except inasmuch as it would have meant saying goodbye to Joyce before Joyce could… reject her???? If that’s what she feels is happening here.)
(And we know it’s not what’s happening here; Joyce still loves and cares about her. The “I’m still here” comic was very recent. But it’s also something Joyce said to Dorothy while Dorothy was asleep, so. Can’t blame Dorothy for not hearing it.)
“I’m done reading the comments today,” said Li, thinking they meant it sincerely
guess I had a lot of thoughts and feelings still to express lol
TL;DR: I don’t think this is yet definitively objectively undeniably romantic jealousy, but none of the other possibilities make sense to me personally, so I am in a holding pattern until tomorrow, when the blurry Patreon preview says we are swapping to Carla lol
Honestly, I QPR-ship Joyce/Dorothy, and even *I* had some serious trouble with that fifth panel. Like, if that’s shipper-bait for the romantics, it’s REALLY GOOD BAIT. Holy hell, Willis.
“Stupid Joe, listening to Joyce and taking her interests/ability/confidence/experience/fitness level into account, making her feel attractive, and making this a really fun experience for her! How is she supposed to realise that I’m right and he’s bad for her when he’s treating her with respect and kindness, and they’re having a lovely time?!
“Also, here I am making time for her, and what’s she doing?! NOT dropping everyone else to spend time with me!! Well, OK, maybe I don’t mind her not dropping everyone else – I appreciate that many people play positive roles in Joyce’s life and it’s good she has them around her – but why does HE warrant this attention? Sure, he’s pretty and has a buff body, and he’s climbable and Joyce is apparently into that, but he’s JOE. URGH.
“How is it a loser like JOE gets to be with a sweet, gorgeous, smart, funny, kind, generous, amazing person like Joyce, and I’m single? And OK, she’s also a bundle of neuroses and painfully ignorant at times, and she can be A LOT [possibly internally expressed in more ableist/judgemental terms, but I’d rather not, thank you]… How come JOYCE gets to be with somebody who sees how totally worth it she is, when I got put on a pedestal, told I couldn’t actually be struggling when THINGS ARE OVERWHELMINGLY HARD AND I’M LONELY AND COMING ADRIFT and rejected..?
“My life is falling apart at the seams and it’s ALL JOE’S FAULT!!!
Possible internal Dotty dialogue?
Nah she’s holding in a fart and it’s getting really difficult
The exercise room should be an embarrassment-free fart zone.
“She broke up with Dryer for THIS?! After all that work I did to set them up?! Joe is going to make it weird when I stand outside the door and *platonically* listen to Joyce have an orgasm… I just know it!”
This sums up my interpretation of it pretty well, although I suspect Dorothy is also holding onto a side of “why did I both decide to dump Walky and decide to stay here instead of going to Yale, I could be coming at this from a place of post-orgasm clarity”.
I think that’s a lot more of it than the implied crush on Joyce.
She threw Walky away for nothing, since she gave up on Yale.
And her decision to stay here was tied to her thinking she had to take care of Joyce (especially after last semester’s catastrophes) and now Joyce doesn’t need her, so she threw Yale away for nothing too.
I want to disagree that she “threw Walky away”.
I want to.
I don’t actually think she did, but I suspect that’s how she’s now thinking about it.
As much as we like to give Danny shit, she threw him away too.
one point is a point, two points make a line. and a line points a direction.
I really strongly disagree with this connection, and I sure as heck hope Willis isn’t trying to tell us Dorothy made a mistake by ending things with Danny in the exact way she did it. As she herself said, she should have done it months ago, and as she didn’t directly say but, I think, would agree, it was cowardly not to. She didn’t want to hurt him, but she also took the path of least resistance by continuing to date him when she wasn’t feeling it anymore.
Big, BIG difference between that and Walky, especially wrt the amount of genuine respect the two boys showed her.
I don’t mind that Dorothy is reconsidering her goal, but I really don’t like the idea of people crowing about it because it was “always” stupid of her to want to be president, and it was stupider to “throw away” Danny.
Danny is a great boyfriend to Sal. He was… well, I don’t think he did anything wrong with Amber, but I think they were a bad match and that Amber was a really sharp difficulty spike from his previous (and only) relationship with Dorothy. But what we saw of him with Dorothy? Not so much.
I think it’s more about Dorothy’s relationship decisions being a “path of least resistance” in BOTH ways–she stuck with Danny too long because it was the path of least resistance, and she broke up with Walky because it was also the path of least resistance (when she thought she was destined for Yale, anyway).
I’m hoping at some point here she realizes that she’s got to reconsider ALL of her goals, not just the one that’s ALSO the path of least resistance to abandon.
It’d be pretty on point for an ambitious gifted kid with big dreams to stick with that path of least resistance to her own detriment as she’s working through the transition from high school into the first year of college and growing into that larger world, after all.
I don’t really agree that breaking up with Walky was a path of least resistance thing. Neither of them wanted to break up, and they were both struggling with the fact that their “for fun, temporary” relationship couldn’t just stay that way. They were at a crossroads where they could have either taken the next step, opening up to each other and the possibility of something more real and long-term, or stopped seeing each other… and they both opted for the latter.
Walky as much as told us and her that he regretted that after the kidnapping, and I think Dorothy felt the same way — but instead she told him that he deserved to be with someone who could give him their whole heart. That’s not least resistance. That’s trying to be a good friend to someone you care about.
What’s happened SINCE has been a mess on Dorothy’s end, but I think that, while Walky’s reasoning was flawed (and for once, he wasn’t really listening to her imho), but even if he hadn’t been dating Lucy, I think telling her no would still have been the right thing to do.
Because — and now I’m going way out on a limb here, and Willis could prove me wrong in just a few strips — I don’t think she was missing Walky as much as missing herself from a few months ago, pre-trauma, when her biggest problem was slipping grades. And getting back together with an ex doesn’t transport us back in time, no matter how much we might want it to.
I’d like to say for the record that I read the part of your post in [] brackets as also part of Dorothy’s internal monologue, word-for-word. She seems like precisely the type of person who’d police even the inside of her own head for ableist terminology.
I hope the end result of this is Dorothy gets absolutely JACKED.
Dorothy really wants to be lifting JOYCE, not these 5-pounds
–Dave, but there’s only one in the weight room and it’s already in USE aaaargggh
Dorothy gonna be the first female president who can bench press her vice president.
Gay recognizes gay and this is gay as shit, this is straight up how I looked at my ex when I hung out with her and her bf before I finally accepted and became ok with it some time later.
Haha “straight up”
LOT of people setting themselves up for the biggest “god DAMMIT willis” ever, I fear
+1
I mean that’s certainly one possibility.
Nice of you to fear for it? I think lots of other people are more like. Wringing their hands in anticipatory glee.
It’s somehow simultaneously very clear what’s going on with Dorothy and completely ambiguous to the point of other people thinking it’s very clear that something else is going on with Dorothy instead. Even if it’s unintentional, if I were Willis, I’d be cackling like a maniac.
gay
The Dumbing of Age’s reason to exist.
“I dont like girls” I huff, punching a wall so so hard, because of a girl
I walk by 5 seconds later and you’re making out with the wall. Licky style. I keep on walking
Joe isn’t built for running. Dorothy… is conflicted and angry.
Dorothy literally had a dream where she was struggling to hold onto Joyce while pursuing her goals.
comment thread full of people who’ve never had their close friendship set entirely aside for a romantic entanglement lol
I’ve been left behind because some friend wanted to stay with a partner. More than 3 times.
Just the other day Joyce was saying she’ll still make time for Dorothy, and Dorothy wasn’t that interested. They had mac and cheese just last night. Now Dorothy is here “because Joyce said she would be here”. Maybe she genuinely did not realize Joe would also be here, but Joyce doesn’t exercise much on her own.
I don’t think Dorothy has either.
you’re not wrong
they still kinda gay though
That is one heck of an assumption to be making. Genuinely curious, do you think gay people have just never experienced platonic friendship…
Like. You don’t have to agree this is shippy, but it is kind of rude to suggest the only reason anyone thinks otherwise is because they don’t know what friendship is or looks like.
Shouldn’t panel 5 be the back of Joyce’s head? If it’s Dorothy looking at her, she is very behind her
A comment thread without a book title suggestion?
Inconceivable!
Book title: 😠
All her freckles just become frowny angies face
Don’t have time to read through everyone’s thoughts either Dotty: Jelous of what Joyce and Joe have,Jelous that Joyce is spending time with Joe and not her, Jelous of Joe being with Joyce or all of the above.
Oh Dorothy.
I don’t know if the jealousy suggestions are the reason or if she’s concerned that Joyce is happy without her (I hope not! She should be happy her friend is happy) or if she’s regretting Yale.
But I do hope she goes over to Jacob and talks more about classes and internships and careers. There’s a lot to life and there’s a lot of potential friends in college, even if one of them has a boyfriend who doesn’t want you around.
pigeon.meme
is this bi panic?
Yeah this is peak “seeing your crush romantically involved with someone else” anger right here.
Yeah, Dorothy’s just having an existential crisis.
She realized that her lifelong dream led down a dark path, because the President always has to make hard decisions and people get hurt.
She didn’t go to Yale, because she’d gone through so much with her friends, and felt a kinship with them. So she stayed, for them. But now most of her friends are finding their own ways and doing their own things.
And that includes Joyce, one of the few people that she’d thought she could count on being around because she’s always been so sheltered and naive. And who Dorothy thought she could protect and teach, so Joyce wouldn’t make bad decisions, like dating a notorious Lothario. And just last night, they’d been snuggled up together, binge-watching a series. Intimate even though not romantic.
And on that topic, it also includes her previous romantic relationships: Danny, whom she broke up with because she didn’t want to be dating her high school sweetheart because she thought she needed to grow and try out new experiences. And Walky, who broke up with *her* because he felt he was dragging her down and keeping her from reaching her true potential.
I might not be remembering those breakup details correctly, but regardless of those details, the point is that every last bit of everything I just listed is making her feel lost and alone. And frustrated, because Joyce is doing just what Dorothy was trying to show her how to avoid. And there’s probably some elements of being jealous in two different ways: of Joyce being in that heady happy early relationship state of mind (something she doesn’t have), and that this has happened so soon after she and Joyce had shared a close moment together.
“Stupid Sexy Joyce”
Remember in a previous universe where Dorothy was a villain?
No, and neither do you tbh. She was only ever a lonely girl that Head Alien lied to and manipulated and then straight-up possessed when she wasn’t actually willing to hurt Joyce irrevocably even though she believed Joyce was a monster.
Still a villain. Doing it for the wrong reasons, yes. Sympathetic, sure. Redeemed, arguably. Largely ineffectual given the scenario, certainly. But you don’t have to be pure, irredeemable evil for the sake of evil to be a villain.
mean, I just double checked and one of the three definitions each dictionary offers is just interchangeable with antagonist, i.e. the character pitted against the hero in a story, so yeah, by that definition.
But it doesn’t even sound like you’re using that definition, it just sounds like you think I think villains can’t be complex or nuanced or capable of redemption, which. Okay??
But it also sounds like you think this page (and the one that follows it) feature not only a villain but an “arguably” unredeemed villain, so like, we obviously just read completely different comics, my friend.
Get buff, Dorothy!