great qualifier, also, since two of the worst people are currently dead (although the worst person alive is currently Carol, and THAT isn’t happening… so help me I hope not)
But yeah, even Joe has better standards than that. Especially since he’s currently sorting through the third box out out eighteen full of trauma that woman inflicted.
imagine if becky overhears lol, she’s probably happy with dina of course but i can imagine it’d still be kinda rough if joyce acknowledged a subconscious crush on dorothy lol
Yeah she did say something like “man if you were al esbian i’d question your taste in bony poindexters” (i guess that implies that dorothy is a bit skinnier from her workouts and occasional meal skippings but i woudln’t think becky was particularly ‘thicker’ but that’s kinda a tangent)
Sarah insisting’you two are gay! Do gay stuff!’ Is in no way Joyce or Dorothy ‘acknowledging’ anything. It’s just Sarah continuing to be a massive jerk., albeit in a different flavor.
lol i’d think sarah would consider the worst person alive (other htan asher but i don’t think she rly knows about his criminal past) would be raidah herself but at that point she’d prolly eject herself hard out of joyces social circle
but i’d at least hope sarah wouldn’t get joyce’s mom involved
I was gonna say “It’s Amber doing her famous impression of every commenter for every DoA strip”.
But actually it’s from that period in Shortpacked where Robin and Leslie were sorta almost in a relationship but Robin hadn’t accepted her not-straightness yet, and also most of the cast lived in a house Robin bought Leslie with her congress money.
Leslie had decided she had finally had enough of being strung along and was on the verge of kicking everyone out. Amber didn’t want to be homeless on account of Robin’s coming out story entering its 35th season, so this was her advice.
I always felt bad for Squidward. I never really liked the episodes such as the “magic conch” which were kind of just Squidward being relentlessly tormented for being a rational buzz kill.
I was about to say, we haven’t seen her and Dorothy’s door yet have we? the double lesbian flags is absolutely something she’d do. If anything I’m surprised she didn’t slap like 4 on there.
Only reason I dint want Ryan to be dead is because Amber (and her mother) are already facing a lawsuit over the whole stabby-wabby in self defence thing and I don’t want to add manslaughter to those charges.
I mean, this checks out. Sarah’s sense of self-importance is so off the charts that she probably just considers everyone else an NPC ripe for her to torment.
well for us it’s been about a week but for sarah i’m assuming this is all happening within the span of 15-20 mins depending on how long the last convo was going
Sierra Online was a 90s game company infamous for point and click adventure games with puzzles that could only be solved with the most craptastic circuitous moon logic -_-
has dorothy shown bi/lesbian tendencies towards anyone else? other than the laundromat scene i assume dorothy would consider herself to be like an older sister or motherly kinda role to joyce and not a romatic option
No, and she’s barely shown anything like that toward Joyce. At most, some recent strips suggesting she’d reached “I’m lonely and and practically Joyce’s wife anyway, maybe I should lean into it”.
She’s never shown any at all. Even the washing machine scene had zero sexual attraction. Dorothy is on record as saying that as far as she can tell she’s completely straight.
Joyce is on record likewise, not that anyone in-comic or out seems content to let her word stand.
(But then my lonely position is that I will stop believing Joyce and Dorothy’s assertions of straightness when they change them, not when Sarah is doing a mean-spirited scheme by attempting to out someone at top volume in a public hallway.)
I’m not sold on the Joyce is bi idea, but I definitely put a lot more trust in Dorothy’s self-assessment than Joyce’s. Dorothy is the type to have seriously considered it and to honestly accept whatever conclusions she came to. Joyce is far more repressed and it would still be a huge struggle to admit that to herself.
I mean, she claimed at one point to be asexual and no one is going to believe that.
I mean, I’ve been shit talking Sarah pretty hard the last few strips, but she’s not actually wrong here. If Joyce has any gay in her and if Dorothy was available and amenable they’d get together pretty fast. Of course that all rides on those “if’s.
Joyce is from a high-denial background, and while not gay for Becky, has shown various kinds of intense and sometimes physical interest in Dorothy, Sal, and Billie. So Joyce being closeted bi would not be surprising.
Dorothy doesn’t have a homophobic background, and seems better at honest introspection (not perfect!), so it seems more likely that she has never had attraction-to-females before, whether or not she becomes demi-bisexual for Joyce.
That’s why I like Sarah’s character. She is abrasive, rude and terrible at working out a situation with tact even if it would be in her best interest. She’s pragmatic, pessimistic, often antisocial, and has gone out of her comfort zone numerous times to help people. She’s the friend with the (sometimes good, sometimes bad) advice and the baseball bat.
But that’s not WHY she hates her.
She hates her for the Dana situation (the punch to the face didn’t help).
And if Raidah hadn’t treated Sarah like she does, maybe Sarah wouldn’t hate her and might not have wanted to hook Joyce up with Jacob.
Neither side is innocent in their current dynamic.
You know, it could very well be that part of the reason why Sarah hates her is because she didn’t just lose Dana, but lost her entire friend group when Raidah considered her persona non grata, since Raidah basically ran things.
Just because she doesn’t like people doesn’t mean she wasn’t enjoying her time with them, or at least that she was being included.
When neither side is innocent, that doesn’t make what the do to each other less wrong. It just means there is more wrong in the world. Raidah is now RIGHT to hate her. Sarah keeps making Raidah right about a lot of things lately. It’s really a bad trend.
But it’s not about whether or not Raidah is right to hate Sarah.
It’s about whether or not Raidah is right ABOUT Sarah.
And unless/until Sarah is shown to be an unreliable narrator in regards to the Dana situation, Raidah is wrong about her in that regard.
Reeses pieces, regular mms snow caps work to milk duds do have a tendency to melt so make sure your popcorn is not to hot. I suppose you could quiet skittles or Starburst but I think they may be fo tangy basically anything with chocolate and or peanut as the core taste will get the salty sweet combo.
Stupider and stupider. Sillier and sillier. Dumber and dumber. One might say that it’s DUMBness is increasing with AGE, making this a…well, you know what!
Sarah, please don’t demand that apparently straight people change their sexual orientation to suit your whims.
Also, just in general, don’t assume that you know another person’s sexual orientation better than they do. Especially when they’re totally chill with people being not-straight, they’re just straight themselves, I’m not saying repression can’t happen there, but odds are much, much higher you’re just being an asshole.
I’ve had a problem with the commentariat about that. They’d pitch a fit over a queer character being forced to be straight, but have zero problem trying to force straight characters to be queer.
I may be missing something but these are nor equivalent situations? Do you see? There’s no such thing as structural heterophobia or straight-erasure.
In fact recoding canonically straight characters as queer is a counter-cultural practice with a long history. (Obviously it’s not as subversive as it once was). The other thing (“forcing queer people to be straight”) that has a very different history. And present-day reality in many places, many countries, many families. so like. Idk, i’m uncomfortable with the parallel you’re making
Okay, I ordinarily don’t like talking about this, especially with strangers, but unfortunately you’ve unknowingly pushed a particular button of mine that requires me to bring it up to make a point.
I’m someone who, for the most part, considers himself straight. When I was in college, I have heard more than one gay person talk about trying to “turn” a straight person gay (as if that was a thing one could do), because the subject of that person was attractive to them. Even if they were joking, it’s still disrespectful to the orientations and desires of the people they’re talking about, which is insanely hypocritical when it comes to asking that one’s own sexual autonomy and identity is respected.
Just a few years ago, I personally was sexually assaulted by a gay man in public who knew I was straight and didn’t care. Hell, he even did this in front of his then-partner (for context, he was drunk).
Does this change my view of LGBT+ people in any way? No, obviously not–I still have many friends who are a part of that community and I love them to death. Do I think that my experience is common or the norm? No, I don’t personally believe so. But I also don’t think I’m the only person in existence this happened to, and to make the claim that this sort of thing “just doesn’t happen” is something that comes across as personally insulting, insensitive, and disrespectful, and I would make the small suggestion that perhaps it would be better to at least consider the possibility that the reason some people are uncomfortable with, as you put it “recoding straight characters as queer” rather than simply making new queer characters in fiction might be related to the personal feeling one has of having their sexual orientation disrespected.
As someone who is part of the LGBT+ community (I’m assuming, based on other comments of yours I’ve seen), I KNOW you know how that feels, and I would think you would want to avoid doing it to other people, regardless of whether they are straight (yes, I’m including straight people in this estimation), gay, bi, pan, ace, or something in between.
It’s just a thought. Of course, you can comment whatever you want. I just wanted to introduce some context as someone who had this happen to them who happened to see what you said and explain how it made me feel. Whether or not that’s something you think actually matters is up to you.
i’m sorry to hear about the assault you were a victim of, sexual assault is unacceptable no matter who does it to whom. i’m not sure how your sexual orientation relates to the experience you’re describing though? except to the extent that, perhaps your stated orientation made your lack of consent (even more) obvious. but like… gay men sexually assault other gay men. straight men sexually assault gay men. it seems to me like you’re conflating things here a bit?
also, i feel like i should state this even more explicitly, i *am* talking about fiction here, as i believe OP was too (they talk of “commenters” and “characters”). about ways we relate to fictional characters, not real people. i did bring in “reality” into it as a referent that makes fan practices more or less unsavoury, and my point is that discussing canonically queer characters’ potential straightness _is_ cringe and smacks of queerphobia and i completely support “pitching a fit” over that sort of discourse. OTOH the claiming of canonically straight characters by queer communities is not at all the same thing, because queerness and straightness are NOT in comparable historical, social, cultural legal positions in the real world. hope that helps? do let me know what you think, if you’re ok having this discussion
That clarification does in fact help, thank you. The issue I took with your original comment was that your statement “there’s no such thing as heterophobia and straight-erasure,” was interpreted to be taken more generally, and it can easily be interpreted as “disrespect given to straight people on the basis of their sexual orientation just doesn’t happen,” which of course can be extrapolated to the logical conclusion that such things do not matter if it happens to a straight person, because things which do not happen cannot matter.
To answer your other question, the reason why my sexual orientation was relevant to the experience I was describing is because of the reason you stated, that it made my lack of consent obvious and demonstrated a lack of respect for my own identity and orientation, and I was using that fact to make a larger point about how such disrespect of sexual identity isn’t a thing exclusive to LGBT+ people. I was also tying it to my far less extreme example of how people spoke around me in college to demonstrate that I wasn’t just speaking in terms of SA, but generally speaking as well, that this disrespect can come across as just general thoughtlessness, which was how I initially interpreted your comment.
Basically, I was pointing out how what you said (vs. what you meant, which you thankfully clarified) could be interpreted from the point of view of someone who is straight who may or may not have similar experiences, and I was attempting (and possibly failing) to politely ask that the same care be given with how you word such things as you would ask in return. That’s all.
As for discussing canonically queer characters’ potential straightness or queerness, I would agree with you that they’re not the same thing and that discussing canonically queer characters’ potential straightness would indeed be cringe, but I’m not sure I’m convinced that people taking canonically queer characters and interpreting them as straight is actually a thing, or at least, it’s not something I’ve personally observed (you’re welcome to share examples, of course–it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been wrong about something), so I’m not really sure where that claim comes from?
I interpreted OP’s comment more to be a complaint of people (commenters, in this case) treating their personal headcanons as equivalent to actual canon, and that the characters in the story (or in this case, their sexualities) are only valid if they match their personal whims even though they are the reader and not the author, which is something I do understand. I don’t think they were attempting to draw some kind of equivalence as what you described, moreso that some people try to artificially lay claim to something which isn’t theirs to decide.
As an aside, how do you feel with regard to speculation of sexuality for characters whose sexuality has yet to be determined canonically (on account of the fact that it hasn’t been revealed yet)? I personally don’t care to speculate on such things because to me personally, sexuality is one of the least interesting aspects of character writing (one of the protagonists of my stories is gay for example, but it only comes up when it has direct relevance to his story–I don’t really write a whole lot of romance either, gay or straight; frankly I’m just not that good at it–I prefer to write pulpy adventure stories as that’s more my wheelhouse), but I understand that other people enjoy doing it, and from the sound of how you outline the discourse, it would appear that a canonically unclear character (for lack of a better term) would be fair game either way.
Thanks for your reply!
Haha so i think i need to clarify my clarification now. I *was* only discussing attitudes towards fiction but i didn’t mean that my statements were limited to that context.
The issue I took with your original comment was that your statement “there’s no such thing as heterophobia and straight-erasure,” was interpreted to be taken more generally,
So, time to complexify a bit. I did actually mean that statement to apply to the real world, because OP and you are drawing a parallel between queerphobia and something which i jokingly referred to as heterophobia. I do think your experiences matter but saying “if you’ve experiences queerphobia you know how unpleasant it mustve been for me when my sexuality was questioned”, listen. That’s insensitive. You’re right I’m some flavour of queer but i sometimes pass in straight society, and i know the difference. Queer people can absolutely be jerks and aggressors, that’s never been in question. But like. You know how i said “*systemic* heterophobia” is not a thing? That may sound trite but it means sth specific: it means there’s a community that is defined into existence by shared oppression, that they (we) have to find strategies to survive, cope, heal and flourish in the face of oppression. Being straight is the unmarked majority. If gay people have been uncool about your orientation, i dont know, that sucks for sure but like, take a deep breath and don’t get your issues mixed up. You might have a complicated personal story with some of these people, im not saying its an easy situation necessarily but do you feel that was one more symptom of the entire world trying to crush you bc your sexual/gendered identity is not “normal”? Do you feel like you or your fellow straights might be in danger because of their sexual orientation? Do you feel like you need to reclaim your straightness as a label of pride, to form safe(r) spaces without queer people where you can finally breathe freely and be yourself? If you answer yes to any of these questions you better believe we’re no longer talking.
I hope this makes sense. I swear i don’t have anything but empathy for people treating you badly, and its not somehow less bad because you’re straight and they’re not. At least thats my default assumption not knowing their side. But the way these attitudes involve your sexual identity matters, and if i may say so you sound confused about this. Which, if you do have lgbtq-identifying loved ones as you say, i think you really need to think hard about this stuff. It matters. Most if not all queer people have been hurt. They need you to actually be on their side if you’re going to call yourself a friend.
Now, you ask about queer characters reclaimed as straight: oh of course this happens. but lets put things in context: most mainstream media still privileges a cishet consumer. So most people dont really have to confront that problem. But because “straight” is the unmarked category, in mainstream discourse every character is considered cishet (and white, able-bodied etc) until proven otherwise. Couple years ago there was some kerfuffle over Ammonite by Francis Lee, a biopic about a female scientist whose sexual life has not been recorded in history. He decided she would have a female lover. Of course some distant descendant had to pipe up about how that was a shameful appropriation of her ambassador for political points or some shit. Because again: everyone is assumed straight until proven otherwise. Being queer is always already political and believe me, it’s exhausting
Okay. I had to take a breath and step back, and read your comment multiple times because there was something you did in those paragraphs that set me off as I do not take it well when I perceive that I’m being talked down or condescended to, which after taking a moment, I realize was not your intention nor what you were trying to do.
I want to give an actual response that isn’t steeped in anger or a knee-jerk reaction, because you have been otherwise pleasant, and I want to continue showing you the courtesy. I acknowledge that I might fail in that respect though, because I am still somewhat emotionally compromised, but I will give it a try. I will address your reply point by point.
I appreciate that you went out of your way to state that you were speaking from the context of systemic, rather than personal, but to be somewhat blunt, I kind of figured that that was your original intention based on your clarification. It wasn’t the content of what you were saying, but how you worded it that bothered me, and my original reply was simply meant to offer a point of view as to why that is. The focus of my objection was on the personal, not the systemic/political, because this comment section isn’t a march or protest ground, it’s individual people talking to each other. Trying to establish a baseline level of courtesy by saying, “hey, I don’t think you meant to, but this can sound kind of cruel if said to the wrong person, it might be worth re-wording,” is not out of line. “Treat others as one wishes to be treated,” and all that.
As for your questions with regard to whether I believe some kind of systemic discrimination of straight people, I will start by giving my answer, which is obviously, “none of the above.” I have personally witnessed gay friends lose career opportunities due to their sexuality. I have heard virulent tirades from elders growing up spewing the most hate-filled vitriol towards gay and transgender people that one can imagine. If have forced myself to watch hours and hours of footage of hate crimes because I knew I had to see it for myself. I am *well aware* of what my friends go through. You do not need to inform me.
“if you do have lgbtq-identifying loved ones as you say,” (nice implication that I could be lying btw, thanks for that) “i think you really need to think hard about this stuff…They need you to actually be on their side if you’re going to call yourself a friend.”
I have personally donated my time and money to attending marches and to various charitable causes that match with my beliefs. I have spent sleepless nights in my youth texting and talking with people in times of emotional crisis so that they would feel less alone. The friends I obliquely made reference to still count me among their friends. I do not feel that I should have to justify myself to you, but since you chose to make it a point of contention, I might as well, right? To be even more blunt: you don’t get to tell me who I am or what I believe, or even what the nature of my relationships are or should be. “If I may say so you sound confused about this.” No. You may not say so.
“I swear I don’t have anything but empathy for people treating you badly…”
Really? Because it sounded to me a lot like you were still minimizing it and telling me that in the grand scheme of things it does not matter. “That sucks for sure, but take a deep breath.” “I have nothing but empathy *but*…”
There shouldn’t be a “but” when responding to someone discussing their trauma. That article does a lot of heavy lifting, you know. Like, “Yeah, sucks that happened to you, *but* it doesn’t matter as much as other stuff in the world, so I’m just going to ignore how what I say makes you feel.” Especially when you pair it with “At least that’s my default assumption not knowing their side,” because it implies that I could be lying about that or that my own mistreatment was justified.
I think the thing that grates me most are those questions you asked, not only because it carries the implication that I’m some kind of simpleton or morally bankrupt as to deny or be blind to the fact that systemic issues exist, but because it feels like it carries the implicit idea that people’s trauma on an individual level is something that can even be compared in the first place, which to me comes across as incredibly disrespectful not just to me personally, but to literally everyone….like, pain isn’t a contest, you know?
To reiterate: I do not believe that what you stated in your original comment was intending what my initial reaction saw (the idea of “your experiences do not matter” bit), and I agree with you that systemic problems exist that need to be addressed and corrected. Nor do I believe that you are speaking or acting in bad faith (I want to be really clear about this, because again, you’ve taken the time to speak to me and were, for the most part, courteous when doing so).
All I was saying in my original comment was that with the way you worded it, it could be taken the wrong way, and I suggested that if your intention is *not* to hurt people, then maybe wording it differently would be a good idea in the future. It was literally just trying to establish a boundary of courtesy so that civil discussion could continue without the risk of people being unintentionally cruel or disrespectful to each other. That’s it.
One final point, since you mentioned I was being insensitive, and I wanted to clarify. You said “if you’ve experiences queerphobia you know how unpleasant it mustve been for me when my sexuality was questioned.” You misquoted me here. I didn’t say my sexuality was “questioned.” I said it was disrespected. As in, it was known, and then ignored, as were my preferences and bodily autonomy. The reason why I phrased it like I did is because if there’s anyone in the world who knows what it’s like to be disregarded and abused with no regard for what you want, it would be a queer person, precisely because I know and, in some cases, have seen what my friends have gone through. But you’re right. I shouldn’t make that assumption about you, nor should I have attempted to put that on you. For that, I apologize.
*minor correction, as I said “that article does a lot of heavy lifting” should be “that conjunction does a lot of heavy lifting,” on account of “but” being a conjunction, not an article.
hey, OK, you’re right, i made a lot of easy and unfounded assumptions towards a stranger in the context of a hefty and potentially retraumatising discussion, and that’s not ok, i apologize sincerely.
i appreciate your own courtesy and frankness both. i’ll work on my promptness to get argumentative, and lose sight of the human being across the screen. i hope you’re ok. again, apologies for, ironically, my lack of sensitivity and kindness.
I accept your apology. Genuinely, thank you for that. I know that’s not exactly an easy thing to do in the moment, especially when someone’s jumping down your throat and putting you on the defensive. I apologize for getting combative with you and letting my anger get the better of me there.
Understanding from the long conversations you’ve had below that you mean this strictly in the fictional sense, I think Wraithy2773’s intitial statement applies. We are considering the fictional characters and their own behavior. A lot of people here can agree that Dorothy and Joyce got some kinda tension going on. But outside of Meta context, looking at it from in-world perspective Sarah’s being really shit about that. “I’ve got a boyfriend now”, “No go fuck this girl.” That’s pretty crappy on multiple levels including the whole “sexual orientation to suit your whims” one.
That’s fanfiction. I don’t think that’s quite the same thing as what they were talking about (at least I don’t think–Otl1973, please feel free to correct me). I took it more as people treating their personal fanfics or headcanons as equivalent to actual canon and making demands that the story change to suit their whims.
Coming back to this very late, so I doubt this will be seen. However –
I was taking the view that while everyone in the comments knows this is fiction and the characters all do exactly what Willis decides (at least I hope everyone understands this), the commenters in their comments on the action in the comic generally treat the characters as if they have agency. As I believe anyone with agency should be granted the dignity to express that agency and its attributes (be those queerness, straightness, a certain religion, choice of careers, hobbies – whatever) without others deciding these are “wrong”, if others do decide that an attribute is “wrong” or should be changed against the individual’s (or in this case character’s) expressed desire, I find the behavior of those others unacceptable. It doesn’t matter what attribute these others want to change. (Actually, I’m not quite that doctrinaire. I’m perfectly happy to attack bigots, nazis, political loonies, etc., whether real or fictional. But that’s not what we’re talking about here.)
Obviously this comic really is fiction, so the characters don’t have agency, but Willis exercises agency for them. So as their author, he can make choices for them. But I am not really comfortable with others trying to remove their (fictional) agency.
Fanfic, while not my personal cup of tea, is (in my opinion) different, because it it someone else creating a new universe (fictional reality) for the characters, so taking authorship and therefor agency for the character, but only in that new reality.
[A shorter take on this, limited to fiction]
Even though these are fictional characters, they aren’t your fictional characters. You can speculate, you can create whatever fantasies you want in your own mind (or your own fanfic about the same characters), etc. But when you express the desire to impose those fantasies/changes onto those characters in someone else’s creation, which is effectively taking the character’s agency (and by extension, the author’s agency) away, I think you cross a line.
That’s essentially what I thought you were going for, more or less. Even if no one comes back to see this discussion, I’m glad that you clarified what you were saying though, so I wanted to comment to let you know that at least one person appreciated the attempt!
I’ve never heard of a queer conversion camp, I’ll say that much. Nobody’s shipping their straight son off to be electrocuted into loving dick. Nobody’s daughter is being Clockwork Oranged with lesbian porn until she starts lusting for Karen Gillan every time she smells citrus. There’s people saying two girl-shaped cartoons should make out, and there’s a lot of that on a regular basis, but it has absolutely no bearing on the real world.
For the record, I’m pretty ambivalent on shipping fictional characters. Its a fun thing to do, just don’t demand that canon adheres to what goes on in your head and I’m cool with it.
But that’s the point, fictional characters. To Sarah, Dorothy is a real-ass person, and thus her sexuality shouldn’t be pushed on like this.
This is why I like fanfiction. Characters and situations can be pretty much whatever you want. Like you said, as long as people don’t demand that canon adheres to the desires of fanfic, then all is good. And like you said, shipping is fun.
I’ve seen some questionable personalities on twitter and tumblr before it though that would act with less maturity and try to personally demand that authors and artists change their work to suit their own whims, which as an amateur writer myself, kind of rubs me the wrong way, if I’m being honest (for much the same reason I hate Death of the Author, to tell the truth).
It also gets weirder and very much not cool when folks try to ship real people though, which is why Sarah comes across as kind of gross here to me. I’ve spent some time as a lurker in the Vtuber space, and the way some fans treat their idols as fictional characters or toys to pair up with each other because they forget there’s a real person behind the anime avatar is astounding. I’ve even seen it happen with regular Youtuber personalites, shit’s wild. That stuff never fails to weird me out.
there’s a very thoughtful recent Sarah Z video where they discuss how the “queerbaiting” category has (maybe) outlived its use, and they discuss similar sort of parasocial territory where fans treat creators and celebrities in kind of the same way they do fictional characters, i think they make great points as always.
One point being that some celebrities’ public personas *are* very much intentionally crafted as one would a fictional character. ofc that doesn’t make it ok to behave towards them like they actually ARE fictional. they can and do get hurt. it’s complicated!
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll have to check that video out when I have time. I’m not super familiar with Sarah Z, but I really liked her video covering Homestuck, and the followup video, though I was disappointed to hear about how WhatPumpkin reacted to it.
*their video, just realized you used a they pronoun for Sarah Z, so in case I got it wrong, I want to correct it. Really wishing comments had an edit button.
joyce prolly has some repressed sexuality other than being straight but i imagine she’d def be fine with joe first before considering another girl (or just actively avoiding any potential non hetereo options out of respect for becky unless she’s willing to a 3some with her and dina but i imagine she pictures them to be like sisters/platonic soulmates rather than a spark of chemistry)
Dorothy please wake up and tell Sarah you have already voiced your concerned, taught Joyce how to masturbate to try and prevent them getting with each other, but saw that Joe actually does care for Joyce and have already provided them your blessing. Maybe saying she taught Joyce how to masturbate will short circuit Sarah and force a restart.
depends on how heavy of a sleeper she is, she did delete like 20 alarms.
i think she already knows? or at least she vaguely knows that joyce at least masturbated b/c she said so in front of walky and some others and joyce froze in place
Did Dorothy see that, or did she just decide that “I’m not going to win this one, and I’m too tired to be worried anymore, and I’ve got a lot of my own stuff to deal with….”
it would be ironic/messed up if this situation did push her into getting high like “Fuck it i’m done i’m gonna do weed in the parking lot with the other stoners” or so
Because the moment Sarah tried to destroy Raidah’s long term healthy relationship with her boyfriend out of spite, I realized that, “Sarah actually has a serious problem.”
That relationship was healthier than a lot of the relationships we root for. Lets not sugarcoat it and try to make it worse than it was, they were both into the same things, kept each other motivated, had very open communications with each other and seemed to genuinely enjoy each other’s company. Raidah might have gotten with him because he was a future lawyer and she was hedging her bets on him being a big deal, but that didn’t translate to her ever treating him poorly.
Jacob only broke up with her to do right by Raidah for being unfaithful and because he realized he wanted something different.
Well we didn’t really see that much of the relationship to know if they “genuinely enjoyed each other’s company” or not.
We know Raidah is a manipulator, so might have been “adjusting ” her personality or hiding certain things to appeal to Jacob. (Do you really think Jacob would have been cool with how Raidah treats Dina? Or do you think he would have been cool with Sarah being stuck with a roommate in a drug-fueled death spiral?) And Jacob may have liked who Raidah pretended to be rather than who she was. That… doesn’t sound very healthy.
And the fact that his limited experiences with Joyce made him realize Raidah wasn’t providing what he really wanted suggests they couldn’t have been THAT happy together.
Then the solution to that isn’t wacky hijinks, it’s either trust that Jacob’s smart enough to figure it out on his own, or point it out to him and let him decide what to do with that information.
If he wanted to stay with Raidah, it’s his decision.
Sure, but given that Raidah bullied and harassed Sarah, apparently for months, and given that Sarah backed off on the plan and asked Joyce to stop, I think we can write it off as character growth. A bad thing definitely and narratively portrayed as one, but part of her arc rather than a sign that she’s an irredeemable monster.
This is likely to be the same. Probably going to follow basically the same path as Dorothy did with Joyce & Joe. Opposed, trying some wacky ideas to stop it and eventually realizing they’ll be all right.
But the issue in the previous post was not “should Sarah have interfered in their relationship”, the question was “did Raidah and Jacob have a healthy relationship”.
I think long term Radiah and Jacob wouldn’t have worked out. I also think Sarah was still doing something shitty breaking them up. It’s the same bad behavior she’s doing now. Trying to ruin a relationship because she doesn’t like somebody in it.
I think her motivation here is entirely different. There yes it was all about “I’ll die a billion deaths before I let Raidah have him”. Here it’s about protecting Joyce from what she sees as a threat. She’s wrong about that and you can certainly argue she shouldn’t be doing it anyway, but the motivations aren’t the same.
I don’t see anything that could really be called Joyce rejecting Dorothy. Joyce rejected D’s advice to not date Joe. Dorothy otherwise hasn’t done anything rejectable.
She had plenty of times to tell Joyce she had a problem with her dating Joe. If one of those problems was “Cause I want to to dating you.” it might have come up when she decided to go tell somebody “I want to be dating you instead of you dating that other person.” Cause she literally went and did that right after giving Joyce and Joe her blessing, we know she was up for that kind of behavior that day.
That’s how I’ve approached like half the comic and it’s done me well. I was surprised when I found out people were taking the robin arc seriously and not just as silly hijinks
I’m not worried that Sarah’s insane. I’m worried that the trauma of multiple kidnappings and ptsd has put her on edge such that she’s over-reacting to minor threats. I feel like old Sarah would have been more grumbly/whatever. Now, I worry for her. I wonder what her nightmares are like.
All narrators telling their own story are unreliable. For the Dana/Sarah/Raidah story, there are three or four viewpoints to consider of which we have partial bits of two.
In my opinion we have seen enough of how Raidah operates to get a general idea that Sarah is probably relatively accurate in her description of events.
We have seen Raidah belittle both Dina (at the mall) and Joyce (when someone suggested she might be after Jacob), attack Dorothy (when she commented on how presidents are bad people when Dorothy expressed an interest in politics), and hang around with some questionable people (her friends at the mall). Raidah having a lack of empathy for both her friend and Sarah, and going out to harm Sarah seems pretty much in character.
Right? It’s weird this is still in doubt. Raidah has repeatedly shown she is only Nice for Optics and career advancement. She may sound smart sometimes or morally sound while doing it, but people getting upset over how it went down with her and Jacob seem to wildly misinterpret how cruddy she was in that relationship, and also how relationships work in general.
If someone wants to break two other people up, that’s sad and sucks but genuinely in real life only the two participants in a relationship can decide that and are responsible for that, apart from parental figures exerting will on minors. (We have whole.plays about how effective that is, too)
Basically every involved in the end agreed that Joyce was in the wrong there (and thus by implication Sarah for starting her down that path.) Even Joyce afterwards talked about how she was doing it because she thought atheists could just do anything without worrying about morals.
The whole reason I liked that story arc was because the point was that it subverted the romcom tropes. That Joyce was in the wrong, even though Jacob and Raidah weren’t the perfect match.
I missed the part where Joyce talked about how she was trying to break up Raidah and Jacob because she thought atheists could just do anything without worrying about morals. I might even need to be reminded where Joyce agreed she was in the wrong.
We also saw, way back at the very beginning Raidah doing just walk-by harassment of Sarah in the cafeteria, I think. Which implied to me she was picking up where they’d left off the end of the year before.
Beyond that, we’ve seen enough to know that when Sarah’s an unreliable narrator, it’s usually in favor of painting herself as more misanthropic and less concerned about other people than she genuinely is. When she downplays her concern for Dana and talks about how it was affecting her scholarship, I think that’s the unreliable narrator bit.
The funny thing about that is, if Raidah actually said that and Sarah did commit do it, Raidah might be able to be charged with causing suicide through duress. Apparently it’s 5-6 years in prison and a $10,000 fine or something close to that, based on one cursory Google search. Nobody decent’s gonna want to hire a lawyer who bullied someone to death, so she could probably kiss that career goodbye and say hello to Mr. Broom at the nearest department store.
My take is that Radiah has a lot of shitty tendencies. Sarah also has a lot of shitty tendencies though hers tend to be more sympathetic in that she’s making her choices based less on what others around her can do for her and more for what she wants for herself and others. That said, she’s been leaning into her own shitty tendencies lately. I’d put Radiah in a category several different tiers worse than Sarah, but Sarah’s been closing the gap lately and one hopes she’ll stop doing that.
I think she’s going about this the wrong way (i had hope, but lol no) but it feels like Sarah is… Honestly concerned? So maybe that means she’ll be able to listen to somebody else who’s also concerned?? I hope?
Her ‘caring’ is manifesting in a not so good way, since stopping joyce/convincing her isn’t working, so i guess she feels desperate versus just letting things play out (because maybe on a subconscious level she knows it’s going to work out versus “Meh joe will screw up on his own without help eventually”)
I think the concern is more that Joe will actually seduce her and then dump her and that will be far worse for Joyce than if he gets revealed for what she thinks he is now.
Yup. The approach here is bad, but the concern is real and not unfounded. Very similar to Dorothy’s concerns about Joe and to her poor handling of them.
If the two of them do talk, now that Dorothy’s more okay with it, she might be able to convince Sarah that it’ll be okay.
She’s getting out of her comfort zone, knocking on doors, trying to do some real problem solving, trying to get help. Changing her tactics when her original plan isn’t working. Showing determination when she used to define herself by her apathy. Gotta respect that personal growth.
Yoto, have you considered Google Drive, or a non-subscription Patreon?
So, with Google Drive, you get a ton of space for free, and can set permissions on your folders. I generally find the app fairly easy to use even as a person with ADHD – though once people start sharing things with you, I end up starring everything that I want to find again. (I’d probably have a much easier time if I took the time to actually organize my Google Drive. It’s like a rat’s nest in there, and I’m 90% certain I’m not backing up any rats on there.) But it uses a folder structure, you can color-code your folders, and you can create shortcuts (shift+z) to have one file appear in multiple locations. (Which is not quite as good as tagging, but it works. I feel like there’s probably a way to add real tagging via an extension, but I haven’t looked into that yet.)
Unless of course you want to eventually start building a Patreon or something, in which case you could just have all of those as public posts, and if you wanted to start doing . I thought Patreon had a way to categorize / tag different kinds of posts, so it wouldn’t be totally undifferentiated.
…Can you tell that I’m invested in being able to see your artwork all in one place?
(And, so long as you’ve got a relatively recent OS, you can also use the Drive client to sync files and folders from your local computer, too. Although, full disclosure, I know one person who has had issues with the automatic syncing, but it was specifically in the context of another piece of software with autobackups, and using multiple Drive accounts, so I don’t think that would be an issue for art or regular Google Docs, Sheets, etc. files. And that was specifically using the local Google Drive client, not the web interface.)
(And Google at least claims it’s not training AI on free or enterprise Workspace apps, as per Vox.)
No pressure, obvs. Just in case any of that is helpful. I tend to get stuck in the analysis stage (analysis paralysis 4 LYYYYYFE, wait no that’s bad), and I know for me it can sometimes be helpful to just pick something that works very well and run with it, rather than trying to find the absolute most ideal solution.
Anyway, hope that helps or at least isn’t the *annoying* kind of unsolicited advice. Always a pleasure seeing your work!
I feel like this reality ends in a threesome. Sarah, exausted but satisfied in ways that aren’t just smugness goes “See, I was right!” and Joyce agress but then asks “about what exactly?” and Sarah’s not entirely sure anymore. But she has technically succeeded in preventing a Joyce-Joe relationship so she takes the W.
The L is that she can always feel Mandy’s eyes, whenever she goes by her door. Watching this walking, talking preconceived notion about polyamory. Judging.
Ohhhhh crap now we have to remember how much more we need to worry about Dorothy potentially going down a horrible spiral instead of Sarah’s comical busybodying that will almost certainly end in her attempting to seduce Joe
We don’t know! And knowing the way Luann is written, we may never be shown! We’re just expected to assume and fill in the blanks ourselves, or read their newsletter for more context.
Now that you mention it, it occurs to me that Sarah being a horrible busybody while Dorothy angrily mopes in her room antisocially is quite a neat role reversal!
While Dorothy hasn’t given her blessing, per Se, she has made it know to Joyce she’ll let this play out (before trying to get back with Walky) so I would love to see Dorothy open the door and tell Sarah “I know about Joyce and Joe. S’cool. Or at least on a list of drama Joyce has been through in the last 5 months, dating Joe is nothing”
I feel like Sarah, even in her increasing desperation, knows that “Hey Becky’s girlfriend why don’t you sleep with her best friend” and “Hey so your brother’s trying to fuck somebody why don’t you fuck them instead, or maybe fuck your brother?” are pretty touch sells for somebody who’s actually good at this.
This right here. “Objectifying a lot of women” and “having a lot of meaningless consensual sex” is not nearly as bad as Sarah is making it out to be, even if the first bit does make one kinda shitty until you stop doing that. Which Joe mostly seems to have done.
Objectifying all the women you interact with is actually pretty damn bad, as Joyce explained to him. As is planning to “fix Joyce with his penis”, as he told Sarah way back when. Or being willing to cheat on her at the drop of a hat, even now.
Joe’s come a long way, but let’s not diminish what a creep he was at the start and also how he tried to portray himself as even worse than he actually was, since we’re talking here about Sarah’s perception of him.
Mostly because he’d “date” her for at most a time or two before he either got her into bed or gave up. Either way he’d move on to others soon enough. Quite possibly even while he was dating her, whether she knew that was happening or not.
If he was open about that and she was okay with it, wouldn’t be that bad. If “dating” was involved, that probably means he wasn’t being open about it.
Nah, that second thing he wouldn’t do. For all that the other stuff was bad, he is determined not to be like his father. I firmly believe book one Joe wouldn’t tell Joyce they were dating exclusively and then cheat on her.
More likely would be she assumed they were like that, and then her heart is broken when she finds him clearly doing something with somebody else. Probably the sex tape.
Yeah he probably wouldn’t tell her that explicitly. Even early 1st semester Joe. But she might well assume.
And early Joe wouldn’t have actually been dating anyone, so it would have to be something else.
Sarah. If there WERE a ‘weird little gay thing’ which given that you’re talking about two self-avowed straight girls (one of whom has also self-admittedly had her calibration of lady-friendships knocked off kilter by her longtime best friend’s massive crush) perhaps you should consider that yelling about it in a public hallway is tantamount to outing them?
You’ve upgraded your already-impressive level of jerk, Sarah. Just because your roommate has made a decision for herself without your input.
Honestly, I get the impression that by now the gossip mill has managed to spread the idea throughout the dorm that Joyce and Dorothy have Some Kind of Thing Going On Or Whatever. Like, I seem to recall Walky making plenty of semi-serious gay jokes about them even before the time skip, and that kind of salacious half-truth/assumption is exactly the sort of thing an extremely-queer tight-knit community like this dorm would turn into universally-understood-gossip very, very, quickly. I imagine that anyone who heard Sarah just now probably thought to themselves, “haha, see, even her roommate thinks so” and moved on.
…I’m not saying that’s GOOD, of course, or that Sarah isn’t being a total bongo right now, but I’m saying she may at least have the internal rationale of “it’s not outing if I’m just voicing the same suspicions as everyone else.”
…Man I’m just making Sarah sound worse and worse right now, aren’t I. Oh well, it’s a fair cop.
Oh yeah, and one more thing: Anyone who could hear Sarah yelling about Joyce and Dorothy having a “weird little gay thing” also probably heard her yelling about a Joe/Gramandierra foursome a few minutes earlier, which would significantly reduce any inclination they might have to take her seriously.
I’m beginning to worry Sarah has ptsd, such that she’s over-reacting to minor threats. She’s been bullied, kidnapped, witnessed a murder, and support/batgirl for Joyce. Before, Sarah was mostly a harmless crank. Now, she’s going way outside her comfort zone by asking other people for help, and hasn’t mentioned her grades in a while…
While Joe is starting to grow on me for being a guy who wants to be better than how he’s made people expect him to be, I’m still holding onto hope that Joyce and Dorothy will eventually become a thing.
Becky throwing an arm around Sarah’s shoulders, pulling her down a bit and with a sly smile and wagging her finger at Sarah goes “I like the way you think, girl.”
Not really. Becky may have found happiness with her own relationship but something tells me she wouldn’t particularly like “oh Joyce had gay tendencies all along but it wasn’t for YOU.” line of thought Sarah’s got here. There’s pretty much no way you couldn’t call this an ultimate L for the rivalry either. This just isn’t the right kind of zany antic.
DOROTHY VS SARAH
Sarah: has a bat, reasonably violent when the situation calls for it
Dorothy: athletic but nerdy, unclear ability in regards to violence
PLACE YOUR BETS PEOPLE
Unresolved. Lucy comes in with the folding chair before a clear victor can be established. She’s victorious but before she can claim the belt it’s revealed that the “Masked Mongoliensis” has stolen it and will only relinquish it if she’ll face her in a no-rules flaming cage match!
Unresolved. Lucy comes in with the folding chair before a clear victor can be established. She’s victorious but before she can claim the belt it’s revealed that the “Masked Mongoliensis” has stolen it and will only relinquish it if she’ll face her in a no-rules flaming cage match!
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SIKE
Dotty is doing laundry or something rn
great qualifier, also, since two of the worst people are currently dead (although the worst person alive is currently Carol, and THAT isn’t happening… so help me I hope not)
“Currently” dead.
By the 2040’s, Willis will have definitely added in zombies. It is inevitable.
But only because they’ve become pervasive in the real world.
In 2025
Hey, she’s newly single.
But yeah, even Joe has better standards than that. Especially since he’s currently sorting through the third box out out eighteen full of trauma that woman inflicted.
Joyce has a lot to unpack. Good thing she has someone there to help her!
The winner of the subtle pun award of the day.
imagine if becky overhears lol, she’s probably happy with dina of course but i can imagine it’d still be kinda rough if joyce acknowledged a subconscious crush on dorothy lol
Becky has given us a few indications that she’s aware Joyce’s attraction to Dorothy is at least possibly not 100% platonic.
Yeah she did say something like “man if you were al esbian i’d question your taste in bony poindexters” (i guess that implies that dorothy is a bit skinnier from her workouts and occasional meal skippings but i woudln’t think becky was particularly ‘thicker’ but that’s kinda a tangent)
Sarah insisting’you two are gay! Do gay stuff!’ Is in no way Joyce or Dorothy ‘acknowledging’ anything. It’s just Sarah continuing to be a massive jerk., albeit in a different flavor.
Was thinking that Dorothy being out, but Becky being there might be the most amusing way for this to play out.
Dotty’s favorite washing machine isn’t available though
lol i’d think sarah would consider the worst person alive (other htan asher but i don’t think she rly knows about his criminal past) would be raidah herself but at that point she’d prolly eject herself hard out of joyces social circle
but i’d at least hope sarah wouldn’t get joyce’s mom involved
Silly Sarah, you need Amber to provide suitable motivation for this.
I don’t remember the context for this panel and it scares me.
I was gonna say “It’s Amber doing her famous impression of every commenter for every DoA strip”.
But actually it’s from that period in Shortpacked where Robin and Leslie were sorta almost in a relationship but Robin hadn’t accepted her not-straightness yet, and also most of the cast lived in a house Robin bought Leslie with her congress money.
Leslie had decided she had finally had enough of being strung along and was on the verge of kicking everyone out. Amber didn’t want to be homeless on account of Robin’s coming out story entering its 35th season, so this was her advice.
Remember, nobody wants to be a
SquidwardSarah.I always felt bad for Squidward. I never really liked the episodes such as the “magic conch” which were kind of just Squidward being relentlessly tormented for being a rational buzz kill.
Hey, Squiward is my spirit animal.
this is wildly spiraling out of control lol
I think it started out of control. This ain’t really an escalation.
Yeah if anything i feel like this particular idea is slightly less batfuck than the last one
This idea is definitely less batfuck than the last one.
At least Dorothy might be kind of interested in Joyce, as opposed to Gramandierra who seem to regard Joe with disgust and contempt.
Nice wording; if it can’t be solved with a bat, Sarah is out of her depth.
Can’t everything be solved with a bat?
Only if it’s a large enough bat, given a place to stand.
Archimedes said something to this effect, but he was misquoted.
like breathing in space?
Dumbing of Age Book 14: Dumbing of Age Has a Weird Little Gay Thing Going On!
Title speaks the truth.
Except about it being little.
And weird. It’s a normal, normal size gay thing going on.
Can we get confirmed honk shoo vs honk mee mee mee for all the characters?
Dina is “Hompke-rawr!”. It’s adorable.
YES! I dig it. 🥰
Becky is definitely someone who’d have double lesbian flags.
given her one sided/perceived rivalry with dorothy i’m surprised she hasn’t obnoxiously/amusingly taken over more than half the door space
surprised the entire door isn’t painted in the orange and pink,
I was about to say, we haven’t seen her and Dorothy’s door yet have we? the double lesbian flags is absolutely something she’d do. If anything I’m surprised she didn’t slap like 4 on there.
For fuck’s sake, Sarah….
well, yes, exactly
Re: alt-text, what is a honk shoo? Pika pika? 😮
cartoon snoring sound
Dorothy is in dream land.
Honk shoo, honk shoo, snoring noises, etc.
-Gulliver #ACNH
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/honk-shoo-honk-mimimi snork mimimi….
Notice that Sarah clarifies ‘alive’. Sorry, all negative thirty of you Joyce/Ross fans.
I mean there is Mary.
Also you know Ryan.
I’d like to think Ryan is dead, he isn’t but I’d like to think he is.
Only reason I dint want Ryan to be dead is because Amber (and her mother) are already facing a lawsuit over the whole stabby-wabby in self defence thing and I don’t want to add manslaughter to those charges.
It’s awful of me, but I like to think Ryan is lying somewhere under a mat of tubes and wires, still alive, and wishing he wasn’t.
They’re still trying to put his face back together after he went for Amber and she took his knife away.
I can’t believe this is still going on.
Also she’s probably not home. Not every room contains the person who lives in that room.
Don’t be silly, NPCs aren’t supposed to move from their designated spot! What, you think they have agency?
I mean, this checks out. Sarah’s sense of self-importance is so off the charts that she probably just considers everyone else an NPC ripe for her to torment.
Sarah is really stepping up on this situation 👍
The last we saw of her, though, Dorothy was shutting off all her alarms and planning to sleep in. I’d say there’s a fair chance she’s still in there.
dorothy would’ve def poked her head out if she heard sarah ranting about joyce in the hallway
well for us it’s been about a week but for sarah i’m assuming this is all happening within the span of 15-20 mins depending on how long the last convo was going
If it took them that long to exchange a couple of sentences, I’ve got questions.
i mean, if you actively disliked sarah a 2 min conversation could prolly certain feel like 10 mins…
Quick sarah move Becky’s flag over above Dorothy’s name
This will achieve something perhaps?
What do you think this is, an adventure game from Sierra Online? 😂
I don’t know what you’re talking about!
… But literally
Sierra Online was a 90s game company infamous for point and click adventure games with puzzles that could only be solved with the most craptastic circuitous moon logic -_-
For further research:
“Did Moon Logic Kill Adventure Games” feat. PushingUpRoses
I get the reference!
woudl be mildly amusing if that’s how it works like with the one braincell meme “i got a date tonight, it’s my turn to use the sexuality” XD
That would be pretty funny
I’m glad I’m not the only one who immediately saw the adventure game solution to this problem
I feel a great disturbance in the force… as if millions of comments are about to suddenly cry out “no, not like that!”
And I wouldn’t have it any other way.
What if they
declared a warpublished a DOA strip and no oneshowed upyelled at the screenWhat if they published a DOA strip and no one rolled their eyes at the comments?
Fixed that for you.
That’s more than fair XD
has dorothy shown bi/lesbian tendencies towards anyone else? other than the laundromat scene i assume dorothy would consider herself to be like an older sister or motherly kinda role to joyce and not a romatic option
I think she still was. Like Sarah, she was also trying to “save” Joyce from Joe, but in a way that was destined to fail.
I think her dream self is aware, whether she’s shown anything consciously or not. That was a lovely unicorn.
No, and she’s barely shown anything like that toward Joyce. At most, some recent strips suggesting she’d reached “I’m lonely and and practically Joyce’s wife anyway, maybe I should lean into it”.
She’s never shown any at all. Even the washing machine scene had zero sexual attraction. Dorothy is on record as saying that as far as she can tell she’s completely straight.
Joyce is on record likewise, not that anyone in-comic or out seems content to let her word stand.
(But then my lonely position is that I will stop believing Joyce and Dorothy’s assertions of straightness when they change them, not when Sarah is doing a mean-spirited scheme by attempting to out someone at top volume in a public hallway.)
I’m not sold on the Joyce is bi idea, but I definitely put a lot more trust in Dorothy’s self-assessment than Joyce’s. Dorothy is the type to have seriously considered it and to honestly accept whatever conclusions she came to. Joyce is far more repressed and it would still be a huge struggle to admit that to herself.
I mean, she claimed at one point to be asexual and no one is going to believe that.
I mean, I’ve been shit talking Sarah pretty hard the last few strips, but she’s not actually wrong here. If Joyce has any gay in her and if Dorothy was available and amenable they’d get together pretty fast. Of course that all rides on those “if’s.
Joyce is from a high-denial background, and while not gay for Becky, has shown various kinds of intense and sometimes physical interest in Dorothy, Sal, and Billie. So Joyce being closeted bi would not be surprising.
Dorothy doesn’t have a homophobic background, and seems better at honest introspection (not perfect!), so it seems more likely that she has never had attraction-to-females before, whether or not she becomes demi-bisexual for Joyce.
Sarah is really letting her worser self out in these recent strips.
I actually like the ambiguity.
Maybe Lucy and Radiah are right.
That’s why I like Sarah’s character. She is abrasive, rude and terrible at working out a situation with tact even if it would be in her best interest. She’s pragmatic, pessimistic, often antisocial, and has gone out of her comfort zone numerous times to help people. She’s the friend with the (sometimes good, sometimes bad) advice and the baseball bat.
We’ve been objectively shown why exactly Raidah and Lucy think the things they do, though.
Raidah is trying to show people – especially Jacob – that Joyce objectively “doesn’t matter”.
Lucy has no original thoughts in her head.
Raidah is not acting in good faith, and Lucy does not know any better.
I mean, Sarah flat out sent someone to seduce Jacob to destroy Radiah’s relationship.
Radiah is RIGHT to hate her.
But that’s not WHY she hates her.
She hates her for the Dana situation (the punch to the face didn’t help).
And if Raidah hadn’t treated Sarah like she does, maybe Sarah wouldn’t hate her and might not have wanted to hook Joyce up with Jacob.
Neither side is innocent in their current dynamic.
You know, it could very well be that part of the reason why Sarah hates her is because she didn’t just lose Dana, but lost her entire friend group when Raidah considered her persona non grata, since Raidah basically ran things.
Just because she doesn’t like people doesn’t mean she wasn’t enjoying her time with them, or at least that she was being included.
When neither side is innocent, that doesn’t make what the do to each other less wrong. It just means there is more wrong in the world. Raidah is now RIGHT to hate her. Sarah keeps making Raidah right about a lot of things lately. It’s really a bad trend.
But it’s not about whether or not Raidah is right to hate Sarah.
It’s about whether or not Raidah is right ABOUT Sarah.
And unless/until Sarah is shown to be an unreliable narrator in regards to the Dana situation, Raidah is wrong about her in that regard.
Nope, sorry.
Someone does not get retroactively “right” if their motivations and intent are entirely different.
This is still stupid and getting stupider, I’ve run out of popcorn and peanut mms which I put in said popcorn.
Don’t they melt though?
Thin candy shell melts in your mouth not in your hand also you have to let the popcorn cool down.
Oh i see. It’s a recipe
Reeses pieces, regular mms snow caps work to milk duds do have a tendency to melt so make sure your popcorn is not to hot. I suppose you could quiet skittles or Starburst but I think they may be fo tangy basically anything with chocolate and or peanut as the core taste will get the salty sweet combo.
Have you ever had M&Ms that have been warmed up so the chocolate has melted? Heaven. (I use the microwave on very low setting for a very short time.)
Stupider and stupider. Sillier and sillier. Dumber and dumber. One might say that it’s DUMBness is increasing with AGE, making this a…well, you know what!
*Sigh* we know, Sarah. We know.
Sarah, just write down what you just said on the whiteboard!
“Dorothy, pls fuck Joyce? It’s urgent. xoxo Sarah”
Sarah, please don’t demand that apparently straight people change their sexual orientation to suit your whims.
Also, just in general, don’t assume that you know another person’s sexual orientation better than they do. Especially when they’re totally chill with people being not-straight, they’re just straight themselves, I’m not saying repression can’t happen there, but odds are much, much higher you’re just being an asshole.
A lesson a great many of the readers should probably try learning as well…
I’ve had a problem with the commentariat about that. They’d pitch a fit over a queer character being forced to be straight, but have zero problem trying to force straight characters to be queer.
I may be missing something but these are nor equivalent situations? Do you see? There’s no such thing as structural heterophobia or straight-erasure.
In fact recoding canonically straight characters as queer is a counter-cultural practice with a long history. (Obviously it’s not as subversive as it once was). The other thing (“forcing queer people to be straight”) that has a very different history. And present-day reality in many places, many countries, many families. so like. Idk, i’m uncomfortable with the parallel you’re making
Okay, I ordinarily don’t like talking about this, especially with strangers, but unfortunately you’ve unknowingly pushed a particular button of mine that requires me to bring it up to make a point.
I’m someone who, for the most part, considers himself straight. When I was in college, I have heard more than one gay person talk about trying to “turn” a straight person gay (as if that was a thing one could do), because the subject of that person was attractive to them. Even if they were joking, it’s still disrespectful to the orientations and desires of the people they’re talking about, which is insanely hypocritical when it comes to asking that one’s own sexual autonomy and identity is respected.
Just a few years ago, I personally was sexually assaulted by a gay man in public who knew I was straight and didn’t care. Hell, he even did this in front of his then-partner (for context, he was drunk).
Does this change my view of LGBT+ people in any way? No, obviously not–I still have many friends who are a part of that community and I love them to death. Do I think that my experience is common or the norm? No, I don’t personally believe so. But I also don’t think I’m the only person in existence this happened to, and to make the claim that this sort of thing “just doesn’t happen” is something that comes across as personally insulting, insensitive, and disrespectful, and I would make the small suggestion that perhaps it would be better to at least consider the possibility that the reason some people are uncomfortable with, as you put it “recoding straight characters as queer” rather than simply making new queer characters in fiction might be related to the personal feeling one has of having their sexual orientation disrespected.
As someone who is part of the LGBT+ community (I’m assuming, based on other comments of yours I’ve seen), I KNOW you know how that feels, and I would think you would want to avoid doing it to other people, regardless of whether they are straight (yes, I’m including straight people in this estimation), gay, bi, pan, ace, or something in between.
It’s just a thought. Of course, you can comment whatever you want. I just wanted to introduce some context as someone who had this happen to them who happened to see what you said and explain how it made me feel. Whether or not that’s something you think actually matters is up to you.
i’m sorry to hear about the assault you were a victim of, sexual assault is unacceptable no matter who does it to whom. i’m not sure how your sexual orientation relates to the experience you’re describing though? except to the extent that, perhaps your stated orientation made your lack of consent (even more) obvious. but like… gay men sexually assault other gay men. straight men sexually assault gay men. it seems to me like you’re conflating things here a bit?
also, i feel like i should state this even more explicitly, i *am* talking about fiction here, as i believe OP was too (they talk of “commenters” and “characters”). about ways we relate to fictional characters, not real people. i did bring in “reality” into it as a referent that makes fan practices more or less unsavoury, and my point is that discussing canonically queer characters’ potential straightness _is_ cringe and smacks of queerphobia and i completely support “pitching a fit” over that sort of discourse. OTOH the claiming of canonically straight characters by queer communities is not at all the same thing, because queerness and straightness are NOT in comparable historical, social, cultural legal positions in the real world. hope that helps? do let me know what you think, if you’re ok having this discussion
That clarification does in fact help, thank you. The issue I took with your original comment was that your statement “there’s no such thing as heterophobia and straight-erasure,” was interpreted to be taken more generally, and it can easily be interpreted as “disrespect given to straight people on the basis of their sexual orientation just doesn’t happen,” which of course can be extrapolated to the logical conclusion that such things do not matter if it happens to a straight person, because things which do not happen cannot matter.
To answer your other question, the reason why my sexual orientation was relevant to the experience I was describing is because of the reason you stated, that it made my lack of consent obvious and demonstrated a lack of respect for my own identity and orientation, and I was using that fact to make a larger point about how such disrespect of sexual identity isn’t a thing exclusive to LGBT+ people. I was also tying it to my far less extreme example of how people spoke around me in college to demonstrate that I wasn’t just speaking in terms of SA, but generally speaking as well, that this disrespect can come across as just general thoughtlessness, which was how I initially interpreted your comment.
Basically, I was pointing out how what you said (vs. what you meant, which you thankfully clarified) could be interpreted from the point of view of someone who is straight who may or may not have similar experiences, and I was attempting (and possibly failing) to politely ask that the same care be given with how you word such things as you would ask in return. That’s all.
As for discussing canonically queer characters’ potential straightness or queerness, I would agree with you that they’re not the same thing and that discussing canonically queer characters’ potential straightness would indeed be cringe, but I’m not sure I’m convinced that people taking canonically queer characters and interpreting them as straight is actually a thing, or at least, it’s not something I’ve personally observed (you’re welcome to share examples, of course–it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been wrong about something), so I’m not really sure where that claim comes from?
I interpreted OP’s comment more to be a complaint of people (commenters, in this case) treating their personal headcanons as equivalent to actual canon, and that the characters in the story (or in this case, their sexualities) are only valid if they match their personal whims even though they are the reader and not the author, which is something I do understand. I don’t think they were attempting to draw some kind of equivalence as what you described, moreso that some people try to artificially lay claim to something which isn’t theirs to decide.
As an aside, how do you feel with regard to speculation of sexuality for characters whose sexuality has yet to be determined canonically (on account of the fact that it hasn’t been revealed yet)? I personally don’t care to speculate on such things because to me personally, sexuality is one of the least interesting aspects of character writing (one of the protagonists of my stories is gay for example, but it only comes up when it has direct relevance to his story–I don’t really write a whole lot of romance either, gay or straight; frankly I’m just not that good at it–I prefer to write pulpy adventure stories as that’s more my wheelhouse), but I understand that other people enjoy doing it, and from the sound of how you outline the discourse, it would appear that a canonically unclear character (for lack of a better term) would be fair game either way.
Thanks for your reply!
Haha so i think i need to clarify my clarification now. I *was* only discussing attitudes towards fiction but i didn’t mean that my statements were limited to that context.
The issue I took with your original comment was that your statement “there’s no such thing as heterophobia and straight-erasure,” was interpreted to be taken more generally,
So, time to complexify a bit. I did actually mean that statement to apply to the real world, because OP and you are drawing a parallel between queerphobia and something which i jokingly referred to as heterophobia. I do think your experiences matter but saying “if you’ve experiences queerphobia you know how unpleasant it mustve been for me when my sexuality was questioned”, listen. That’s insensitive. You’re right I’m some flavour of queer but i sometimes pass in straight society, and i know the difference. Queer people can absolutely be jerks and aggressors, that’s never been in question. But like. You know how i said “*systemic* heterophobia” is not a thing? That may sound trite but it means sth specific: it means there’s a community that is defined into existence by shared oppression, that they (we) have to find strategies to survive, cope, heal and flourish in the face of oppression. Being straight is the unmarked majority. If gay people have been uncool about your orientation, i dont know, that sucks for sure but like, take a deep breath and don’t get your issues mixed up. You might have a complicated personal story with some of these people, im not saying its an easy situation necessarily but do you feel that was one more symptom of the entire world trying to crush you bc your sexual/gendered identity is not “normal”? Do you feel like you or your fellow straights might be in danger because of their sexual orientation? Do you feel like you need to reclaim your straightness as a label of pride, to form safe(r) spaces without queer people where you can finally breathe freely and be yourself? If you answer yes to any of these questions you better believe we’re no longer talking.
I hope this makes sense. I swear i don’t have anything but empathy for people treating you badly, and its not somehow less bad because you’re straight and they’re not. At least thats my default assumption not knowing their side. But the way these attitudes involve your sexual identity matters, and if i may say so you sound confused about this. Which, if you do have lgbtq-identifying loved ones as you say, i think you really need to think hard about this stuff. It matters. Most if not all queer people have been hurt. They need you to actually be on their side if you’re going to call yourself a friend.
Now, you ask about queer characters reclaimed as straight: oh of course this happens. but lets put things in context: most mainstream media still privileges a cishet consumer. So most people dont really have to confront that problem. But because “straight” is the unmarked category, in mainstream discourse every character is considered cishet (and white, able-bodied etc) until proven otherwise. Couple years ago there was some kerfuffle over Ammonite by Francis Lee, a biopic about a female scientist whose sexual life has not been recorded in history. He decided she would have a female lover. Of course some distant descendant had to pipe up about how that was a shameful appropriation of her ambassador for political points or some shit. Because again: everyone is assumed straight until proven otherwise. Being queer is always already political and believe me, it’s exhausting
Last paragraph:
* ancestor not ambassador
*Deep breath*
Okay. I had to take a breath and step back, and read your comment multiple times because there was something you did in those paragraphs that set me off as I do not take it well when I perceive that I’m being talked down or condescended to, which after taking a moment, I realize was not your intention nor what you were trying to do.
I want to give an actual response that isn’t steeped in anger or a knee-jerk reaction, because you have been otherwise pleasant, and I want to continue showing you the courtesy. I acknowledge that I might fail in that respect though, because I am still somewhat emotionally compromised, but I will give it a try. I will address your reply point by point.
I appreciate that you went out of your way to state that you were speaking from the context of systemic, rather than personal, but to be somewhat blunt, I kind of figured that that was your original intention based on your clarification. It wasn’t the content of what you were saying, but how you worded it that bothered me, and my original reply was simply meant to offer a point of view as to why that is. The focus of my objection was on the personal, not the systemic/political, because this comment section isn’t a march or protest ground, it’s individual people talking to each other. Trying to establish a baseline level of courtesy by saying, “hey, I don’t think you meant to, but this can sound kind of cruel if said to the wrong person, it might be worth re-wording,” is not out of line. “Treat others as one wishes to be treated,” and all that.
As for your questions with regard to whether I believe some kind of systemic discrimination of straight people, I will start by giving my answer, which is obviously, “none of the above.” I have personally witnessed gay friends lose career opportunities due to their sexuality. I have heard virulent tirades from elders growing up spewing the most hate-filled vitriol towards gay and transgender people that one can imagine. If have forced myself to watch hours and hours of footage of hate crimes because I knew I had to see it for myself. I am *well aware* of what my friends go through. You do not need to inform me.
“if you do have lgbtq-identifying loved ones as you say,” (nice implication that I could be lying btw, thanks for that) “i think you really need to think hard about this stuff…They need you to actually be on their side if you’re going to call yourself a friend.”
I have personally donated my time and money to attending marches and to various charitable causes that match with my beliefs. I have spent sleepless nights in my youth texting and talking with people in times of emotional crisis so that they would feel less alone. The friends I obliquely made reference to still count me among their friends. I do not feel that I should have to justify myself to you, but since you chose to make it a point of contention, I might as well, right? To be even more blunt: you don’t get to tell me who I am or what I believe, or even what the nature of my relationships are or should be. “If I may say so you sound confused about this.” No. You may not say so.
“I swear I don’t have anything but empathy for people treating you badly…”
Really? Because it sounded to me a lot like you were still minimizing it and telling me that in the grand scheme of things it does not matter. “That sucks for sure, but take a deep breath.” “I have nothing but empathy *but*…”
There shouldn’t be a “but” when responding to someone discussing their trauma. That article does a lot of heavy lifting, you know. Like, “Yeah, sucks that happened to you, *but* it doesn’t matter as much as other stuff in the world, so I’m just going to ignore how what I say makes you feel.” Especially when you pair it with “At least that’s my default assumption not knowing their side,” because it implies that I could be lying about that or that my own mistreatment was justified.
I think the thing that grates me most are those questions you asked, not only because it carries the implication that I’m some kind of simpleton or morally bankrupt as to deny or be blind to the fact that systemic issues exist, but because it feels like it carries the implicit idea that people’s trauma on an individual level is something that can even be compared in the first place, which to me comes across as incredibly disrespectful not just to me personally, but to literally everyone….like, pain isn’t a contest, you know?
To reiterate: I do not believe that what you stated in your original comment was intending what my initial reaction saw (the idea of “your experiences do not matter” bit), and I agree with you that systemic problems exist that need to be addressed and corrected. Nor do I believe that you are speaking or acting in bad faith (I want to be really clear about this, because again, you’ve taken the time to speak to me and were, for the most part, courteous when doing so).
All I was saying in my original comment was that with the way you worded it, it could be taken the wrong way, and I suggested that if your intention is *not* to hurt people, then maybe wording it differently would be a good idea in the future. It was literally just trying to establish a boundary of courtesy so that civil discussion could continue without the risk of people being unintentionally cruel or disrespectful to each other. That’s it.
One final point, since you mentioned I was being insensitive, and I wanted to clarify. You said “if you’ve experiences queerphobia you know how unpleasant it mustve been for me when my sexuality was questioned.” You misquoted me here. I didn’t say my sexuality was “questioned.” I said it was disrespected. As in, it was known, and then ignored, as were my preferences and bodily autonomy. The reason why I phrased it like I did is because if there’s anyone in the world who knows what it’s like to be disregarded and abused with no regard for what you want, it would be a queer person, precisely because I know and, in some cases, have seen what my friends have gone through. But you’re right. I shouldn’t make that assumption about you, nor should I have attempted to put that on you. For that, I apologize.
*minor correction, as I said “that article does a lot of heavy lifting” should be “that conjunction does a lot of heavy lifting,” on account of “but” being a conjunction, not an article.
hey, OK, you’re right, i made a lot of easy and unfounded assumptions towards a stranger in the context of a hefty and potentially retraumatising discussion, and that’s not ok, i apologize sincerely.
i appreciate your own courtesy and frankness both. i’ll work on my promptness to get argumentative, and lose sight of the human being across the screen. i hope you’re ok. again, apologies for, ironically, my lack of sensitivity and kindness.
I accept your apology. Genuinely, thank you for that. I know that’s not exactly an easy thing to do in the moment, especially when someone’s jumping down your throat and putting you on the defensive. I apologize for getting combative with you and letting my anger get the better of me there.
oh i get it. it was warranted. thank you. take care
Understanding from the long conversations you’ve had below that you mean this strictly in the fictional sense, I think Wraithy2773’s intitial statement applies. We are considering the fictional characters and their own behavior. A lot of people here can agree that Dorothy and Joyce got some kinda tension going on. But outside of Meta context, looking at it from in-world perspective Sarah’s being really shit about that. “I’ve got a boyfriend now”, “No go fuck this girl.” That’s pretty crappy on multiple levels including the whole “sexual orientation to suit your whims” one.
Have you ever heard of this thing called slash?
That’s fanfiction. I don’t think that’s quite the same thing as what they were talking about (at least I don’t think–Otl1973, please feel free to correct me). I took it more as people treating their personal fanfics or headcanons as equivalent to actual canon and making demands that the story change to suit their whims.
Coming back to this very late, so I doubt this will be seen. However –
I was taking the view that while everyone in the comments knows this is fiction and the characters all do exactly what Willis decides (at least I hope everyone understands this), the commenters in their comments on the action in the comic generally treat the characters as if they have agency. As I believe anyone with agency should be granted the dignity to express that agency and its attributes (be those queerness, straightness, a certain religion, choice of careers, hobbies – whatever) without others deciding these are “wrong”, if others do decide that an attribute is “wrong” or should be changed against the individual’s (or in this case character’s) expressed desire, I find the behavior of those others unacceptable. It doesn’t matter what attribute these others want to change. (Actually, I’m not quite that doctrinaire. I’m perfectly happy to attack bigots, nazis, political loonies, etc., whether real or fictional. But that’s not what we’re talking about here.)
Obviously this comic really is fiction, so the characters don’t have agency, but Willis exercises agency for them. So as their author, he can make choices for them. But I am not really comfortable with others trying to remove their (fictional) agency.
Fanfic, while not my personal cup of tea, is (in my opinion) different, because it it someone else creating a new universe (fictional reality) for the characters, so taking authorship and therefor agency for the character, but only in that new reality.
[A shorter take on this, limited to fiction]
Even though these are fictional characters, they aren’t your fictional characters. You can speculate, you can create whatever fantasies you want in your own mind (or your own fanfic about the same characters), etc. But when you express the desire to impose those fantasies/changes onto those characters in someone else’s creation, which is effectively taking the character’s agency (and by extension, the author’s agency) away, I think you cross a line.
That’s essentially what I thought you were going for, more or less. Even if no one comes back to see this discussion, I’m glad that you clarified what you were saying though, so I wanted to comment to let you know that at least one person appreciated the attempt!
I’ve never heard of a queer conversion camp, I’ll say that much. Nobody’s shipping their straight son off to be electrocuted into loving dick. Nobody’s daughter is being Clockwork Oranged with lesbian porn until she starts lusting for Karen Gillan every time she smells citrus. There’s people saying two girl-shaped cartoons should make out, and there’s a lot of that on a regular basis, but it has absolutely no bearing on the real world.
For the record, I’m pretty ambivalent on shipping fictional characters. Its a fun thing to do, just don’t demand that canon adheres to what goes on in your head and I’m cool with it.
But that’s the point, fictional characters. To Sarah, Dorothy is a real-ass person, and thus her sexuality shouldn’t be pushed on like this.
This is why I like fanfiction. Characters and situations can be pretty much whatever you want. Like you said, as long as people don’t demand that canon adheres to the desires of fanfic, then all is good. And like you said, shipping is fun.
I’ve seen some questionable personalities on twitter and tumblr before it though that would act with less maturity and try to personally demand that authors and artists change their work to suit their own whims, which as an amateur writer myself, kind of rubs me the wrong way, if I’m being honest (for much the same reason I hate Death of the Author, to tell the truth).
It also gets weirder and very much not cool when folks try to ship real people though, which is why Sarah comes across as kind of gross here to me. I’ve spent some time as a lurker in the Vtuber space, and the way some fans treat their idols as fictional characters or toys to pair up with each other because they forget there’s a real person behind the anime avatar is astounding. I’ve even seen it happen with regular Youtuber personalites, shit’s wild. That stuff never fails to weird me out.
there’s a very thoughtful recent Sarah Z video where they discuss how the “queerbaiting” category has (maybe) outlived its use, and they discuss similar sort of parasocial territory where fans treat creators and celebrities in kind of the same way they do fictional characters, i think they make great points as always.
One point being that some celebrities’ public personas *are* very much intentionally crafted as one would a fictional character. ofc that doesn’t make it ok to behave towards them like they actually ARE fictional. they can and do get hurt. it’s complicated!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7djba98-YkQ
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll have to check that video out when I have time. I’m not super familiar with Sarah Z, but I really liked her video covering Homestuck, and the followup video, though I was disappointed to hear about how WhatPumpkin reacted to it.
*their video, just realized you used a they pronoun for Sarah Z, so in case I got it wrong, I want to correct it. Really wishing comments had an edit button.
Oh i don’t know actually SZ’s pronouns i just tend to reflexively “they/them” everyone
joyce prolly has some repressed sexuality other than being straight but i imagine she’d def be fine with joe first before considering another girl (or just actively avoiding any potential non hetereo options out of respect for becky unless she’s willing to a 3some with her and dina but i imagine she pictures them to be like sisters/platonic soulmates rather than a spark of chemistry)
Oh, I can buy Joyce being repressed on that level.
Dorothy, though, I just struggle to see her being attracted to other women and repressing it.
like ruth said “you’re going to accidentally pratfall yourself into your first orgasm and bang half the town” lol
And even if she was, as she said, right now she’s a Kinsey zero. If she wants to change her mind on that, it should be on her own time and dime.
Dorothy please wake up and tell Sarah you have already voiced your concerned, taught Joyce how to masturbate to try and prevent them getting with each other, but saw that Joe actually does care for Joyce and have already provided them your blessing. Maybe saying she taught Joyce how to masturbate will short circuit Sarah and force a restart.
depends on how heavy of a sleeper she is, she did delete like 20 alarms.
i think she already knows? or at least she vaguely knows that joyce at least masturbated b/c she said so in front of walky and some others and joyce froze in place
Did Dorothy see that, or did she just decide that “I’m not going to win this one, and I’m too tired to be worried anymore, and I’ve got a lot of my own stuff to deal with….”
I would say her admitting she was wrong is giving her blessing.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/03-joementum/standing-2/
Okay, she tried two doors. Three if you count her own. That’s enough doors.
Time to start randomly stopping people in the lobby
Maybe put up some signs?
Post on social media?
After Door Number Three, it’s time to go for the box that Jay is holding in the aisle
…Sarah. No.
Are we sure it was Sarah’s ROOMMATE who was on drugs?
it would be ironic/messed up if this situation did push her into getting high like “Fuck it i’m done i’m gonna do weed in the parking lot with the other stoners” or so
I’m not sure what the narrative goal here is.
Are we supposed to laugh at the sitcom antics?
Worry that Sarah is going insane?
Conclude that maybe Raidah has a point about Sarah?
Yes.
Because the moment Sarah tried to destroy Raidah’s long term healthy relationship with her boyfriend out of spite, I realized that, “Sarah actually has a serious problem.”
That was nowhere near healthy.
Raidah was only with Jacob because she felt that was the natural order of the universe.
That relationship was healthier than a lot of the relationships we root for. Lets not sugarcoat it and try to make it worse than it was, they were both into the same things, kept each other motivated, had very open communications with each other and seemed to genuinely enjoy each other’s company. Raidah might have gotten with him because he was a future lawyer and she was hedging her bets on him being a big deal, but that didn’t translate to her ever treating him poorly.
Jacob only broke up with her to do right by Raidah for being unfaithful and because he realized he wanted something different.
Well we didn’t really see that much of the relationship to know if they “genuinely enjoyed each other’s company” or not.
We know Raidah is a manipulator, so might have been “adjusting ” her personality or hiding certain things to appeal to Jacob. (Do you really think Jacob would have been cool with how Raidah treats Dina? Or do you think he would have been cool with Sarah being stuck with a roommate in a drug-fueled death spiral?) And Jacob may have liked who Raidah pretended to be rather than who she was. That… doesn’t sound very healthy.
And the fact that his limited experiences with Joyce made him realize Raidah wasn’t providing what he really wanted suggests they couldn’t have been THAT happy together.
Then the solution to that isn’t wacky hijinks, it’s either trust that Jacob’s smart enough to figure it out on his own, or point it out to him and let him decide what to do with that information.
If he wanted to stay with Raidah, it’s his decision.
Sure, but given that Raidah bullied and harassed Sarah, apparently for months, and given that Sarah backed off on the plan and asked Joyce to stop, I think we can write it off as character growth. A bad thing definitely and narratively portrayed as one, but part of her arc rather than a sign that she’s an irredeemable monster.
This is likely to be the same. Probably going to follow basically the same path as Dorothy did with Joyce & Joe. Opposed, trying some wacky ideas to stop it and eventually realizing they’ll be all right.
But the issue in the previous post was not “should Sarah have interfered in their relationship”, the question was “did Raidah and Jacob have a healthy relationship”.
I think long term Radiah and Jacob wouldn’t have worked out. I also think Sarah was still doing something shitty breaking them up. It’s the same bad behavior she’s doing now. Trying to ruin a relationship because she doesn’t like somebody in it.
I think her motivation here is entirely different. There yes it was all about “I’ll die a billion deaths before I let Raidah have him”. Here it’s about protecting Joyce from what she sees as a threat. She’s wrong about that and you can certainly argue she shouldn’t be doing it anyway, but the motivations aren’t the same.
This is like an episode of SpongeBob, and Sarah is Squidward.
I dig. XD
note the irony that Sarah is two days late and Dorothy got rejected.
Dorothy got rejected by Walky. I think she got pre-empted by Joe rather than rejected by Joyce.
She was rejected by them both, in different ways. She missed her chance with Joyce before Joe.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/joyce+dorothy/
I don’t see anything that could really be called Joyce rejecting Dorothy. Joyce rejected D’s advice to not date Joe. Dorothy otherwise hasn’t done anything rejectable.
She had plenty of times to tell Joyce she had a problem with her dating Joe. If one of those problems was “Cause I want to to dating you.” it might have come up when she decided to go tell somebody “I want to be dating you instead of you dating that other person.” Cause she literally went and did that right after giving Joyce and Joe her blessing, we know she was up for that kind of behavior that day.
I guess that explains the confusion over the narrative.
It’s like a Rohrschach test. There’s a normal answer and there’s a concerning one. I’m not telling you which is which but, well. I think you know
I know this one! Two bears high fiving!
it’s another picture of my parents getting divorced isn’t it
Where did you get a picture of my island fortress?!?!?!
don’t think about it too hard and enjoy the ride for now lol
That’s how I’ve approached like half the comic and it’s done me well. I was surprised when I found out people were taking the robin arc seriously and not just as silly hijinks
I’m not worried that Sarah’s insane. I’m worried that the trauma of multiple kidnappings and ptsd has put her on edge such that she’s over-reacting to minor threats. I feel like old Sarah would have been more grumbly/whatever. Now, I worry for her. I wonder what her nightmares are like.
drs, we can do more than one thing at the same time.
We saw how the Raidah situation went down according to Sarah but what if she’s an unreliable narrator and this is how Sarah really was with Raidah
I mean, I told my roommate’s father but I may have left out he was a serial killer.
I mean, I may have left out that I’m a serial killer and Dana’s father actually saved her… from me.
All narrators telling their own story are unreliable. For the Dana/Sarah/Raidah story, there are three or four viewpoints to consider of which we have partial bits of two.
In my opinion we have seen enough of how Raidah operates to get a general idea that Sarah is probably relatively accurate in her description of events.
We have seen Raidah belittle both Dina (at the mall) and Joyce (when someone suggested she might be after Jacob), attack Dorothy (when she commented on how presidents are bad people when Dorothy expressed an interest in politics), and hang around with some questionable people (her friends at the mall). Raidah having a lack of empathy for both her friend and Sarah, and going out to harm Sarah seems pretty much in character.
Right? It’s weird this is still in doubt. Raidah has repeatedly shown she is only Nice for Optics and career advancement. She may sound smart sometimes or morally sound while doing it, but people getting upset over how it went down with her and Jacob seem to wildly misinterpret how cruddy she was in that relationship, and also how relationships work in general.
If someone wants to break two other people up, that’s sad and sucks but genuinely in real life only the two participants in a relationship can decide that and are responsible for that, apart from parental figures exerting will on minors. (We have whole.plays about how effective that is, too)
Basically every involved in the end agreed that Joyce was in the wrong there (and thus by implication Sarah for starting her down that path.) Even Joyce afterwards talked about how she was doing it because she thought atheists could just do anything without worrying about morals.
The whole reason I liked that story arc was because the point was that it subverted the romcom tropes. That Joyce was in the wrong, even though Jacob and Raidah weren’t the perfect match.
I missed the part where Joyce talked about how she was trying to break up Raidah and Jacob because she thought atheists could just do anything without worrying about morals. I might even need to be reminded where Joyce agreed she was in the wrong.
the conversation starts here and goes for four strips: https://www.dumbingofage.com/challenges/
We also saw, way back at the very beginning Raidah doing just walk-by harassment of Sarah in the cafeteria, I think. Which implied to me she was picking up where they’d left off the end of the year before.
Beyond that, we’ve seen enough to know that when Sarah’s an unreliable narrator, it’s usually in favor of painting herself as more misanthropic and less concerned about other people than she genuinely is. When she downplays her concern for Dana and talks about how it was affecting her scholarship, I think that’s the unreliable narrator bit.
Yeah like her introduction was basically telling Sarah “kys loser lmao” I feel like she’s pretty well established as a shit person
The funny thing about that is, if Raidah actually said that and Sarah did commit do it, Raidah might be able to be charged with causing suicide through duress. Apparently it’s 5-6 years in prison and a $10,000 fine or something close to that, based on one cursory Google search. Nobody decent’s gonna want to hire a lawyer who bullied someone to death, so she could probably kiss that career goodbye and say hello to Mr. Broom at the nearest department store.
My take is that Radiah has a lot of shitty tendencies. Sarah also has a lot of shitty tendencies though hers tend to be more sympathetic in that she’s making her choices based less on what others around her can do for her and more for what she wants for herself and others. That said, she’s been leaning into her own shitty tendencies lately. I’d put Radiah in a category several different tiers worse than Sarah, but Sarah’s been closing the gap lately and one hopes she’ll stop doing that.
Sarah, queen of reading the subtext out loud
I think she’s going about this the wrong way (i had hope, but lol no) but it feels like Sarah is… Honestly concerned? So maybe that means she’ll be able to listen to somebody else who’s also concerned?? I hope?
Her ‘caring’ is manifesting in a not so good way, since stopping joyce/convincing her isn’t working, so i guess she feels desperate versus just letting things play out (because maybe on a subconscious level she knows it’s going to work out versus “Meh joe will screw up on his own without help eventually”)
I think the concern is more that Joe will actually seduce her and then dump her and that will be far worse for Joyce than if he gets revealed for what she thinks he is now.
Yup. The approach here is bad, but the concern is real and not unfounded. Very similar to Dorothy’s concerns about Joe and to her poor handling of them.
If the two of them do talk, now that Dorothy’s more okay with it, she might be able to convince Sarah that it’ll be okay.
Sarah is going to end up pushing away every person who even slightly tolerates her over this isnt she?
Yup. Gonna be a hard few years where Raidah is on top.
Wait, what weird little gay thing? Isn’t teaching your best friend to masturbate totally platonic?
Just some Gals being Pals!
History will say Dorothy and Joyce were best friends.
Dorothy didn’t say “no homo tho” after that, so Sarah could have made a mistake
This is awesome. Sarah continues to have my whole-hearted endorsement and respect
She’s getting out of her comfort zone, knocking on doors, trying to do some real problem solving, trying to get help. Changing her tactics when her original plan isn’t working. Showing determination when she used to define herself by her apathy. Gotta respect that personal growth.
Personally, I’ve always had a healthy respect for train wrecks.
You’re in good Victorian company 👍
She’s Moisturized. Happy. In Her Lane. Focused.
Dorothy’s having some sweet dreams right now.
Some of them want to use her
Some of them want to get used by her
Who am I to disagree?
nobody in here but us chickens
I should say I don’t approve of Sarah’s methods at all but Joyce bi realization is a wish of mine so I don’t know how to feel.
https://imgur.com/a/b2ce2HF (suggestive)
I still love this gimmick so I may keep doodling it here and there.
Sarah: see? See???
Joyce: yyyyup
Sarah: what…? No, i mean him!!
Joyce: oh yeah, he’s seeing too. don’t worry
Joyce: You don’t know what you’re missin’!
Thank you Yoto, I think I’ll see myself to the nearest washing machine once more. XD :3
Your doing god’s work yoto
obrigado
…br?
?
@Amos guess that answers your question 😄
@Onyx they’re asking if you’re from Brazil fam
– Joyce, it’s for him, not you!
Is your DoA stuff archived anywhere? The imgur links you posted a while back seem to be dead.
Not yet. Still trying to figure out where I’ll put it.
Yoto, have you considered Google Drive, or a non-subscription Patreon?
So, with Google Drive, you get a ton of space for free, and can set permissions on your folders. I generally find the app fairly easy to use even as a person with ADHD – though once people start sharing things with you, I end up starring everything that I want to find again. (I’d probably have a much easier time if I took the time to actually organize my Google Drive. It’s like a rat’s nest in there, and I’m 90% certain I’m not backing up any rats on there.) But it uses a folder structure, you can color-code your folders, and you can create shortcuts (shift+z) to have one file appear in multiple locations. (Which is not quite as good as tagging, but it works. I feel like there’s probably a way to add real tagging via an extension, but I haven’t looked into that yet.)
Unless of course you want to eventually start building a Patreon or something, in which case you could just have all of those as public posts, and if you wanted to start doing . I thought Patreon had a way to categorize / tag different kinds of posts, so it wouldn’t be totally undifferentiated.
…Can you tell that I’m invested in being able to see your artwork all in one place?
(And, so long as you’ve got a relatively recent OS, you can also use the Drive client to sync files and folders from your local computer, too. Although, full disclosure, I know one person who has had issues with the automatic syncing, but it was specifically in the context of another piece of software with autobackups, and using multiple Drive accounts, so I don’t think that would be an issue for art or regular Google Docs, Sheets, etc. files. And that was specifically using the local Google Drive client, not the web interface.)
(And Google at least claims it’s not training AI on free or enterprise Workspace apps, as per Vox.)
No pressure, obvs. Just in case any of that is helpful. I tend to get stuck in the analysis stage (analysis paralysis 4 LYYYYYFE, wait no that’s bad), and I know for me it can sometimes be helpful to just pick something that works very well and run with it, rather than trying to find the absolute most ideal solution.
Anyway, hope that helps or at least isn’t the *annoying* kind of unsolicited advice. Always a pleasure seeing your work!
I might do that.
…Well this is MOST excellent.
I feel like this reality ends in a threesome. Sarah, exausted but satisfied in ways that aren’t just smugness goes “See, I was right!” and Joyce agress but then asks “about what exactly?” and Sarah’s not entirely sure anymore. But she has technically succeeded in preventing a Joyce-Joe relationship so she takes the W.
The L is that she can always feel Mandy’s eyes, whenever she goes by her door. Watching this walking, talking preconceived notion about polyamory. Judging.
Foreboding Becky name is foreboding.
Sarah’s flop era is so so so fun. She’s struggling godbless <.3
Can’t wait to see Beckys reaction to Dorothy teaching Joyce to masturbate
Ohhhhh crap now we have to remember how much more we need to worry about Dorothy potentially going down a horrible spiral instead of Sarah’s comical busybodying that will almost certainly end in her attempting to seduce Joe
Bets on who Joyce’s new roommate will be?
Booster, but they’ll still be Walky’s roommate as well.
Probably not Bets, she’s con-hopping in an old camper van without Gunter right now.
Probably always in a bad mood while she’s traveling from one Con to another. I can’t believe she doesn’t miss Gunther.
We don’t know! And knowing the way Luann is written, we may never be shown! We’re just expected to assume and fill in the blanks ourselves, or read their newsletter for more context.
Now that you mention it, it occurs to me that Sarah being a horrible busybody while Dorothy angrily mopes in her room antisocially is quite a neat role reversal!
While Dorothy hasn’t given her blessing, per Se, she has made it know to Joyce she’ll let this play out (before trying to get back with Walky) so I would love to see Dorothy open the door and tell Sarah “I know about Joyce and Joe. S’cool. Or at least on a list of drama Joyce has been through in the last 5 months, dating Joe is nothing”
Oh that Sarah *laugh track*
Just draw a dick on their white board. It did ?something? before
Uh-oh, is Walky going to overhear something he shouldn’t when Sarah knocks on Amber and Dina’s door?
She probably doesn’t need to knock. Sarah IS just standing in the hallway yelling.
I feel like Sarah, even in her increasing desperation, knows that “Hey Becky’s girlfriend why don’t you sleep with her best friend” and “Hey so your brother’s trying to fuck somebody why don’t you fuck them instead, or maybe fuck your brother?” are pretty touch sells for somebody who’s actually good at this.
I was briefly distracted by the lesbian pride flag, but that’s definitely Becky’s.
I applaud Sarah’s use of troubleshooting skills.
Sorry about this, but Sarah is even more beautiful on first panel.
Willis know how to make cute villains.
Wort person alive? LOL. Not even the worst person in the Willisverse, by a long shot.
Muffled from behind door: “Sarah, you’re thinking of Doris, a completely unrelated character not based on any real person.”
Made me smile.
I’m frankly a bit surprised that it took the assembled ensemble of commenters almost six hours to bring it up.
You’re barking up the wrong tree, Sarah (Dorothy has already tried)
Sarah: Dammit, why do hijinks and shenanigans work for everybody but me?!
Cause you’re the straight man Sarah. Squidward can get swept up in the crazy but what happens every time he tries to start one himself?
Which flag is that ?
“This is an emergency! Do gay stuff!”
Maybe Dorothy’s roommate will answer the door.
When your self-loathing is so great that you can’t even accept for a second that things *might* be working out for others.
And even if not, heartbreak is a part of growing up. I thought that was something someone like Sarah would know.
It is an incredibly entertaining trainwreck in slow-motion though.
Joe is the worst person ever because he confessed some women are more attractive than others. Jesus H Christ
This right here. “Objectifying a lot of women” and “having a lot of meaningless consensual sex” is not nearly as bad as Sarah is making it out to be, even if the first bit does make one kinda shitty until you stop doing that. Which Joe mostly seems to have done.
Objectifying all the women you interact with is actually pretty damn bad, as Joyce explained to him. As is planning to “fix Joyce with his penis”, as he told Sarah way back when. Or being willing to cheat on her at the drop of a hat, even now.
Joe’s come a long way, but let’s not diminish what a creep he was at the start and also how he tried to portray himself as even worse than he actually was, since we’re talking here about Sarah’s perception of him.
Joe as he was at the start of the comic would be the most annoying person that your roommate could choose to date.
Mostly because he’d “date” her for at most a time or two before he either got her into bed or gave up. Either way he’d move on to others soon enough. Quite possibly even while he was dating her, whether she knew that was happening or not.
If he was open about that and she was okay with it, wouldn’t be that bad. If “dating” was involved, that probably means he wasn’t being open about it.
Nah, that second thing he wouldn’t do. For all that the other stuff was bad, he is determined not to be like his father. I firmly believe book one Joe wouldn’t tell Joyce they were dating exclusively and then cheat on her.
More likely would be she assumed they were like that, and then her heart is broken when she finds him clearly doing something with somebody else. Probably the sex tape.
Yeah he probably wouldn’t tell her that explicitly. Even early 1st semester Joe. But she might well assume.
And early Joe wouldn’t have actually been dating anyone, so it would have to be something else.
Sarah. If there WERE a ‘weird little gay thing’ which given that you’re talking about two self-avowed straight girls (one of whom has also self-admittedly had her calibration of lady-friendships knocked off kilter by her longtime best friend’s massive crush) perhaps you should consider that yelling about it in a public hallway is tantamount to outing them?
You’ve upgraded your already-impressive level of jerk, Sarah. Just because your roommate has made a decision for herself without your input.
Wait until Becky opens the door.
Honestly, I get the impression that by now the gossip mill has managed to spread the idea throughout the dorm that Joyce and Dorothy have Some Kind of Thing Going On Or Whatever. Like, I seem to recall Walky making plenty of semi-serious gay jokes about them even before the time skip, and that kind of salacious half-truth/assumption is exactly the sort of thing an extremely-queer tight-knit community like this dorm would turn into universally-understood-gossip very, very, quickly. I imagine that anyone who heard Sarah just now probably thought to themselves, “haha, see, even her roommate thinks so” and moved on.
…I’m not saying that’s GOOD, of course, or that Sarah isn’t being a total bongo right now, but I’m saying she may at least have the internal rationale of “it’s not outing if I’m just voicing the same suspicions as everyone else.”
…Man I’m just making Sarah sound worse and worse right now, aren’t I. Oh well, it’s a fair cop.
Oh yeah, and one more thing: Anyone who could hear Sarah yelling about Joyce and Dorothy having a “weird little gay thing” also probably heard her yelling about a Joe/Gramandierra foursome a few minutes earlier, which would significantly reduce any inclination they might have to take her seriously.
I’m beginning to worry Sarah has ptsd, such that she’s over-reacting to minor threats. She’s been bullied, kidnapped, witnessed a murder, and support/batgirl for Joyce. Before, Sarah was mostly a harmless crank. Now, she’s going way outside her comfort zone by asking other people for help, and hasn’t mentioned her grades in a while…
I just wonder if she has nightmares too.
Becky is in there and is contemplating murdering Dorothy for her betrayal at this very moment.
While Joe is starting to grow on me for being a guy who wants to be better than how he’s made people expect him to be, I’m still holding onto hope that Joyce and Dorothy will eventually become a thing.
I feel like all of Sarah’s intrusive thoughts are winning right now
I REALLY want to see Becky’s reaction to Sarah’s idea. Plus Dorothy running away screaming totally in denial.
Becky throwing an arm around Sarah’s shoulders, pulling her down a bit and with a sly smile and wagging her finger at Sarah goes “I like the way you think, girl.”
Not really. Becky may have found happiness with her own relationship but something tells me she wouldn’t particularly like “oh Joyce had gay tendencies all along but it wasn’t for YOU.” line of thought Sarah’s got here. There’s pretty much no way you couldn’t call this an ultimate L for the rivalry either. This just isn’t the right kind of zany antic.
I’m afraid you’re right.
Sarah is the new Joe.
Oh look, the three members of the “Joyce needs you all to settle the fuck down” club, even if Becky is rapidly becoming an emeritus member.
Becky’s membership is waning, so Billie’s recently been gunning for her spot!
Sarah: “Made we need a more subtle, psychological angle…” *moves the lesbian flag from Becky’s side of the door to Dorothy’s*
Also dang it, Sarah, I’d hate you for this but it’s just so g’damn earnest and desperate (and literally every comment has been saying this anyways)
No, it’s stupid and intrusive. She made her case. Joyce heard her case. Now it’s time to mind her own business.
DOROTHY VS SARAH
Sarah: has a bat, reasonably violent when the situation calls for it
Dorothy: athletic but nerdy, unclear ability in regards to violence
PLACE YOUR BETS PEOPLE
I’m counting both as having lots of pent up rage
Unresolved. Lucy comes in with the folding chair before a clear victor can be established. She’s victorious but before she can claim the belt it’s revealed that the “Masked Mongoliensis” has stolen it and will only relinquish it if she’ll face her in a no-rules flaming cage match!
I learned some new dinosaur-related vocabulary today! Neat!
Unresolved. Lucy comes in with the folding chair before a clear victor can be established. She’s victorious but before she can claim the belt it’s revealed that the “Masked Mongoliensis” has stolen it and will only relinquish it if she’ll face her in a no-rules flaming cage match!
wth double post dammit.
…Becky is going to hear this and it’s going to cause SO MANY PROBLEMS.
I keep forgetting that Joe is known on campus as both “sex tape guy” and “bang list guy”
Yeah, he kinda ruined any chance of ever being known for anything else for the rest of his life.
Dorothy is a honk shoo kind of a person and Becky is more of a mimimimimimimi kind of gal
Okay, he’s not /that/ bad. He’s not Druggo McStabbed. He’s just a jerk who does seem to be trying to be less of a jerk.
♪ (Reach out) Reach out for her ♪
♪ Ha, she’s not there ♪
♪ To vulture love for you ♫
Trying another angle should never mean circling back to an existing tri-angle. DoA is not a romcom exclusively.