At least she’s told her mother just what she thinks of the lunacy. She’ll always know she said her piece and her mother picked that church over her, over the family, over morality. Carol is siding with her terrorist cult in direct contradiction to everything she ever taught Joyce. Unfortunately a scene played out over and over again as white Americans chose Fox News and far-right extremism over their families and even their own lives.
Yeah at this point I’m starting to wonder just how autobiographical Joyce’s story is. How deep does this run in parallel with Mr. Willis’s parents story?
I’m new to the Walkyverse with DoA – mind if I ask, how do commentors here knowthings like this? That Willis’ mother sold their home to fund a failing church for example?
Also, YIKES, that’s really awful that the church would TAKE those funds. Even without the cut-and-dried murderer-bail-out it raises a whole host of ethical questions that most mainstream churches in the UK would gape at in horror.
Pat Robertson is dead, Robert Pattinson is very much alive (for the many people who apparently misread the headlines today), and I’m dancing happily, lol
Denying someones humanity is a hell of a lot shitier than celebrating the death of a man who indirectly killed thousands minimum probably much higher thanks to his influence on American politics and his homophobic bullshit.
Othering and dehumanizing people who do shit like he did also helps us turn a blind eye to those close to us doing them because well they aren’t inhuman monsters so they can’t be like that right?
So fuck that bullshit. Pat Robertson was human, he is dead, now lets get the party hats and celebrate the fact that he isn’t making peoples lives miserable anymore.
Yikes, he was that bad?! I thought he just another dime a dozen megachurch Ponzi pastor with an interest in politics and he just happened to be one of the first into the market. Still, my point stands.
He was seriously that bad. There are some pointed summaries of his effects on politics today. He is directly responsible for Republicans being such extreme right-wingers, a complete violation of the principle of separation of church and state that the United States was founded on.
I thought the same and looked through some of the reasons he’s so reviled. It’s all pretty tame individually (like, pretty horrible, but also pretty normal out of touch white trumpie fundie horrible, like Carol up here), but when you consider that he was the centerpoint for Broadcasting those views, and did so for 60 years, it makes a lot more sense that people hate him. Just like Rush was the voice of pointless hatebait, Pat was the voice of christian hatebait, and a successful televangelist grifter on top.
I understand this sentiment and I sympathize, but I’m frustrated by how many people tend to police people’s reactions this way.
Yes, he was human. I’m sure alongcameaspider knows that. That said, he was a shitty human and so if somebody wants to not-literally revoke his humanity card, I’m not going to object to that. Alongcameaspider hasn’t denied anyone doing something shitty here and so your hypothetical is not helpful here.
Alongcameaspider’s reply also started off by policing other’s reactions. It turns into a joke with the second part, but it’s still there. It’s true that Alongcameaspider didn’t personally do what can happen with these kinds of ideas; it’s also true that it happens and is built on sentiments like these.
Honestly, I think Alongcameaspider was just having a bit of fun, but I do deeply hate the No True Scotsman move of “doesn’t count as human,” which does come up often.
Alongcameaspider was agreeing with the person above them – I checked yesterday and that was the case there too. I think it’s being overly literal to read that as policing.
Like I said, I sympathize with disliking the “No true Scotsman” aspect of it and I’m not saying it’s never dangerous to do that, but I don’t think when people are upset or angry and venting over something horrible someone did to them or their community (or, in this case, are celebrating that they CAN’T do those things anymore) is a good time to nitpick and police that.
Personally I think in this case “doesn’t count” is more of a rejection of said person than a “humans would never do this” thing, but like I said, I get why that would bother people too.
Come on, from what little I know of him he peddled hate for money and did more damage than good to our political system, but he was still a living being with hopes and dreams and family who, probably loved him. Also, he was in his 90’s and probably out of the game at this point so its not like his death stops him hurting others – its just kind of sad.
After all I think a lot of bible stuff is pretty crazy and the hard core “only through me stuff” is at best a Darwinian survival relic of the war of religions for people’s devotion, power, and money, but I think the big concept that its never too late to try to make amends and start again is true. I am more sad, Robert Pattinson never tried to undo some of his damage than happy that he is dead. We all make mistakes and we all die eventually – best not to think or feel to much about that – how much we try to make up for the former is the choice – better to try to feel and think a lot about that one.
AIDS patients were also living beings with hopes and dreams and family who, sometimes, bothered to love them, and he encouraged them to die, helped fund and foster actions that directly resulted in more deaths, and was quite happy about it the whole time.
You feel free to mourn the bastard. I’ll be over here mourning elders in my community and direct family members who were hurt by him.
A great deal of the damage he did to the political system has directly led to an incredible amount of pain and suffering, and yes I’m prepared to say death as well. The fact that he was a human being with hopes and dreams does not mitigate that, in fact it should serve as a reminder that the greatest monsters of history have all been very human, and it’s all of our responsibilities to acknowledge our failings, from species to societal to personal, and to work to address them.
It also behooves us to understand that he achieved some of his hopes and dreams, and that led us to where we are today. He never wanted to atone for his actions, he believed he was right and also righteous. You do no good sanding down people’s feelings about him. He damaged countless lives and the structural damage he did in the USA will be felt for generations to come and has well earned the ire that’s directed at him. Let people feel how they feel about him. If your knowledge is limited of him, which it sounds like you feel it is, I think your time and energy would be better-spent learning and understanding why he is so reviled by so many rather than telling those who know more about him how they should be feeling about his death.
Also, Robert Pattinson is an actor and is very much alive. Pat Robertson is the one who died.
Nah, it’s not sad. Fuck his family and friends, too. His “hopes and dreams” involved multiple forms of genocide. The only problem I’ve got with his death is that it didn’t come sooner. Defending shit is a bad look.
Joining my voice to the chorus of “fuck that noise.” Pat Robertson (not Robert Pattinson) was a piece of shit and the only problem with his death is that it happened at 93 and not 39 or earlier. Also fuck the “never too late to make amends” bullshit: he did irreparable harm including (but far from limited to) getting countless innocents killed. Fuck him, fuck his friends, and fuck any of his family that cared about him. Piss on his grave.
What is your logic?
Whence the rule that we shouldn’t celebrate the death of a human being? Who said that? Why?
And how do you judge that Pat Robertson wasn’t human? Like, where do you draw the line? This comment is just deeply strange to me.
I don’t like dehumanizing even the worst people. Not for their sake, but because it makes it harder to recognize bad behavior in others, when you don’t already see them as monsters.
This kind of thing is very, very human. Ordinary people who otherwise seem nice can be evil.
When I saw the news, my first response was to sing “Ding Dong The D*ck Is Dead,” but as the day passed I started to feel deeply sad about this.
I keep thinking about a She-Ra quote:
“I’m not just crying for Hordak. I’m crying for the saddest thing I know: a wasted life. To be given that most precious gift – the gift of living – to do with as we choose… I’m crying because this man has chosen to throw it away. And when he’s gone, nobody will care. “
why are so many of you talking like that?? Do you feel that way about Hitler’s death too, or Bin Laden’s or whoever your monster of choice may be? If you don’t care to be a bit more discriminating with your empathy and grief, maybe refrain from expressing it in a thread dedicated to pissing on the bastard’s smoking corpse.
I don’t think talking like that is a reflection on Pat Robertson, who deserves exactly as much sympathy as he himself had for LGBTQ+ folks, but more along the lines of “I want to be a better person than he was, and that includes trying to feel pity instead of hate.”
Yeah well i’m seeing a lot of tearing up over the supposed “wasting” of a white cis straight male american life, and no words for the avoidable victims of the AIDS crisis, the Haitian earthquake or Charles Taylor’s regime of terror.
This is pride month, a raging racist and homophobe is dead, and affects and discourses surrounding that death are political. Being all boohoo what a sad waste is a bummer and suggests no course of action when we could be expressing energetic, collective sentiments like queer joy and anger.
Hatred of Robertson and glee at his demise have NOTHING in common with the cumstain’s own hatred of marginalized people. Affects are not values, they are not disembodied and contextless.
Also, they throw parties when one of us dies. They send death threats to the mourning families. They protest our right to even have a funeral, at the funeral. It’s nice to have empathy, but putting myself in their place makes me physically ill and I don’t see a benefit to it. Saying “hey be nice he had a family” devalues the families who have actually lost someone, especially the ones he directly affected with his own actions. When I die, my family won’t even be able to afford a headstone, but I’m supposed to be nice to the conman who had something like 100mil in assets? No.
yeah they can have all the empathy for pat they want it ain’t going to do jack shit. isn’t going to make them a better person for it, isn’t going to do anything material to make the world better. all it does is boost their ego for a minute.
I can’t choose to turn my empathy off and on. There’s a number of people I truly hope die, but that doesn’t make me feel any less gross for feeling that way.
“Jim (Baker) and Pat should take a pole, Right up each saintly Glory Hole, With tar and feathers, too; Just like they’d want to do to YOU!” Frank Zappa, ” “Jesus Thinks You’re A Jerk”, 1988.
Don’t hate the man, hate the message. The message/idea is still alive and well. The death of one man will have little to no impact on that at this point.
no it doesn’t, what are you talking about? no one is under the impression that robertson’s death has solved homophobia. why can we not all just hoot and high-five the reaper for finally pinching off this one bastard??? why do we have to debate this??? it’s like the nazi punching debate all over again. one egregious motherfucker dropping dead of old age doesn’t solve shit, but it makes me happy ok???
I’m down for hooting and high-fiving the reaper, just to put that on record. And I agree, it’s not up for debate that the guy’s death is objectively an improvement on the planet. Even if all his legacy (which, why the fuck does he get to have one) is still intact and the machine has already been set in motion decades ago, at least the guy who flipped the switch and pushed the machine out of the pothole is brown dust.
Or possibly drag queens. That seems to be the other current right wingnut obsession. Apparently nothing on earth terrifies them more than a man with a dress and a book.
She would have a Heart Attack as soon as she got there since most of those places tend to have more then one god, none of which are her god. Either that or she would be extremely rude to said gods and get herself smited.
Might make an interesting villain character. I don’t know if they would be able to convincingly write the person learning how to be a better person well enough.
Hear me out. We send her to Japan to get hit by a truck and make her Aqua’s problem. I mean we’d also have to convince Aqua that Carol is a teenager but it shouldn’t be that hard Aqua’s dumb enough that she’s forgotten she’s a goddess at least once.
Once Aqua sends her off to the new world she’ll encounter the Axis cult and start harassing them for their un(Carrol’s)godly ways. Axis cult vs. Carol fight, whoever loses the world wins.
I dunno if I’d go so far as to say “loved”. Like, I love pizza. But Mike being alive is more a take-it-or-leave-it thing. I mean sure, it’s fine. I like it more than Mike being dead. But love is overselling it a bit.
yeah i imagine joyce probably wouldnt’ have bothered talking to mike at all if he wasn’t walky’s roommate/somewhat in her class/group but i’m she wouldn’t repeat the “i mean, /some/ days he came close to deserving it” to her mom like she did with ehr dad
Loving someone alive us not the same as loving them. His being alive was a support system for Amber and Ethan, both she cares about deeply. Him being alive would have meant the church hadnt bailed out McIntyre and that he and OMalley weren’t trying to kidnap people…. yeah, Mike was the canary in the coal mine and if nothing else his being alive meant nothing else was being poisoned. That said people are allowed to have complex feelings… retroactively she probably thinks it’s hilarious Mike Hail Sataned/lied to her mom to protect Becky.
I’m going to be positive and think that maybe Hank got a good deal in the divorce settlement because Carol was in a rush to get clear title to the house so she could sell it.
Based on the conversation a few days ago I think it’s more likely that they did it for parity, since she didn’t have the earning potential of Hank.
I wonder what’s going to happen when John tries to guilt Joyce into taking her in once she’s burned through what was supposed to be her nestegg. Because traditionally it’s the daughter’s job to take care of parents and I imagine John doesn’t want Carol, Jordan is Jordan, and Jocylene wouldn’t be considered her daughter.
Now I am flashing back to “Like Water For Chocolate” where the youngest sister is not allowed to marry because she will have to take care of her mother. So her mother suggests that her beau marry an older sister instead. Which he agrees to like a dumbass instead of just asking her to elope or something.
🤨😧 OK, so she responds by running off, saving up and getting a scholarship to college and building herself an awesome, independent future away from all of those losers? Yes? 🥺
Coz you’re kinda better off without the sort of beau who’ll happily accept your sister as a substitute for you because your future has been preordained without reference to your wishes, or parents who’d suggest it, or try to do that to you… That’s just all HORRIBLE!! Children are not chattel, not even daughters 😡
I mean it’s autobiographical, so people who were familiar with Willis talking about didn’t really ‘call’ it so much as ‘oh no, this is that part isn’t it.’
So what did God tell everyone else involved to do to keep the church building from being lost?
And did God happen to tell Carol who she’ll be staying with now that she has no house?
Or does she have to figure that part out on her own?
Maybe she’s counting on the “honor thy mother and thy father” part to provide her a place on the couch of the asshole brother with the wife we haven’t met (and I’m sure is 100% real).
But as a good Christian girl, Joyce is supposed to get married, at which point she effectively becomes part of her husband’s family. I’m sure Linda will disown “Josh” the moment she finds out the truth about Jocelyn. Jordan seems to have vanished (Not that I blame him.), so John’s stuck with her. Since his beliefs seem to be pretty shallow and opportunistic, she’s SOL.
Can’t really foist her off on Joyce in the short term. Joyce doesn’t have a place to put her. That would be likely to happen, but not for a decade or two. When Carol’s getting too old to live on her own and Joyce is better established.
As someone with an overly religious parent, if “God” did not provide a direct answer to a question, as he is oft to do, it is “God will take care of me, as he works in mysterious ways.”
You know what she loves more than that church? Becky, Dorothy, Sarah, Joe, etc.
Having a home is more important than having a church building. I forget the exact words but, “Where two or more people are gathered in the name of God he shall be there.”
According to that, you don’t need a church building to have church, you don’t even need bibles; all you need is believers gathered together in their love of God.
I know a little about religion despite being an atheist; probably since I had no choice as a kid. Pretending you believe the same the same things as your family can be exhausting.
While I am Agnostic now, I feel the same way, I stopped believeing in god at a fairly young age, before I even hit the teens, so going to church was always a pain. I literally had to take sips of coffee that they had out for me to stay awake. Atleast the Jewish temple I got to go to when at my dad’s house had good food afterwords.
The only reason im not atheist is probably because I hope deep down that there is some really cool explanation, like the elder gods are real or something lol.
You can still be an atheist and agnostic, atheism means you don’t believe but being agnostic is simply about not being able to know if there is a god/are gods. So you can believe there is no god and still believe that there is no way to know for certain; so in that example you are both.
So you’re saying that you can believe there is no God, while simultaneously claiming that you don’t know if there is a God? How is that supposed to work?
“There is no God! …unless, of course, there is?”
Sounds like the kind of thing that ends with you in a laughing academy.
To me things only make sense if you either believe there is a God, you believe there isn’t a God, or you don’t know or haven’t found persuasive evidence for either the existence or non-existence of God: Theists, atheists, and agnostics.
I mean, to look at it super reductively: the beliefs of a stable person are usually not totally binary, they’re credences on some scale like 0-100%. At some threshold in either direction, we say we “believe” something rather than expressing uncertainty, but that threshold can vary wildly by person, context, and culture. The idea of an agnostic atheist would be someone who has like 20% credence – they don’t feel justified in totally rejecting the possibility, and they’re not certain all believers are wrong, but they’re also probably not going to live their life like there is a god in any way.
The context part matters a lot – I do suspect that a lot of people who described themselves generically as “agnostic” in the 2000s, when I cared about these debates, were effectively atheists but were turned off both by getting ambushed by Uncle Chris for a deep theological argument at Thanksgiving and by being associated with really combative atheists like Hitchens, so reached for a different word.
(I assume agnostic theists are underrepresented because they’re often neither particularly welcomed by their coreligionists *or* by skeptics – it seems like a thankless intellectual row to hoe.)
Fair enough. Though to me, it still seems odd to “believe in” (or not) something that you have serious doubts about.
Though I suppose in a way, it makes more sense to say “I don’t believe in XXX” when you have, say, an 80% certainty it doesn’t exist, but reserve 20% of doubt/openness to being wrong, than to say “I believe in XXX” while harboring 20% doubt about that belief.
And it makes kind of sense, seeing as how the existence of something can conclusively be determined, while proving non-existence is effectively impossible. Which if taken to the extremes would mean strict atheism is impossible, since you never can be 100% sure.
I totally feel you about what you say about really combative atheists. To my mind, for most practical purposes, they appeared to have made their supposed non religiousness into something very akin to a religion. An a fundamentalist religion, at that.
Definitely something you’d want to put some distance to if you don’t share their zealotry.
Like honestly after all the events that happened in past year alone it’s was best for Joyce and Becky to distance herself from them before they ended up killing them or anymore of their other friends.
The only thing 2 has on Sonic 3 is I think the sprites look better in 2/CD than 3’s psuedo 3D look.
3K has the better levels, Better music, A good story, The better bonus stages (I have never gotten all the emeralds in 2), Elemental Sheilds and abilities, and the best finale. Just a masterpiece of a game.
I suggested 2 because it’s the last sonic game I played where I wanted to beat the game (I’m not big into platformers because I suck at jumping).
Other than racing each other, I didn’t care about 3 and never really played any game after that.
It was never about the sex (If I recall Mike was into dudes) – it was about the anguish the knowledge of his carnal conquest would causes those he cared about….. Are we 100% sure Mike didn’t deserve to die?
He’s married to Amber in shortpacked, and was dating Dina.
When he lost control and punched Dina, it was seen as her victory over him in their game of control when she was all but making him date her.
They may have been the most unhealthy couple in any universe.
He’s fucked his wife in at least one slipshine.
Mike is bi/pan so he did the ladies, too. Just not “on-screen”, as it were, in the DoA universe. In the Its Walky! universe he and Amber are married with a kid, after all.
That was an Ahh of sudden and welcome elucidation not annoyance. In case, that was unclear. I realized in retrospect that might have been confusing or hurtful. Thanks again for the info.
Yeah, Mike can be an asshole who wasn’t terribly fun to be around a lot of the time but that doesn’t mean people didn’t want him alive! ESPECIALLY when the reason he died is because you assholes bailed out another asshole with the help of asshole supreme!
I’m curious where Carol will live after the divorce is finalized. I also wonder how much, if any, Hank has to pay Carol the conga each month for her to continue being an oxygen thief.
It’s intimated that he was the way he was at least in part because he discovered Blaine’s stuff years before and was trying to force Amber to deal with it. He just got kind of lost in the role to the point that the role became his personality.
I’m not sure the point is that he got points back… his being alive was an indicator life was better. Him being alive meant her best friends psycho dad didn’t participate in killing him/kidnapped them all… And if anything gave him points at this point in her journey it’s probably lying to her mom on the phone to save Becky and then Hail Sataning… probably finds that funny now.
Selling the house for the church to have a building is crazy because
1) A church is the people not the place
2) If a lack of building is a problem for the church you know what might solve that? A house that can fit a family of 9 plus a dog – it might not be a church but it sounds pretty big for a single weekly meeting.
I mean come on the early cults where just meeting in people’s houses and crypts, for Christ’s sake.
i mean would’ve just cut out the middle man and have the house be the church but i imagine the money is more important to the pastors than the property itself
It’s a sense of luxury or lifestyle they don’t want to relinquish as a consequence for poor decision making. A church building holds more people, is a symbol of status, is likely required to qualify for certain tax exemptions, and functions held there very likely enrich the congregation. After all if you don’t have a church building you don’t need to collect donations you can skim off of to by your deacons fancy cars.
And you can’t expect their priest to sell off his own worldly possessions to fund his status symbol, how can he be a true religious leader if he’s facing consequences for his groups actions and not banking off of his followers?!
I got the strong impression that their church is more populated than would fit in a house. They’ve got a whole big congregation. Their Sunday school could well have a hundred students. It would be very hard to teach a full-sized Sunday school class in a room that’s the size of a child’s bedroom.
This church bought John a mustang skimming off tithes. It’s doing well and if it’s anywhere near the size where a huge building is needed I feel like fund raising should be a viable option. I don’t know how deep they dug for Ross’ bail but I feel like that was some time ago now and the community has had opportunity to refill some of their funds. I don’t know the details but I can’t imagine the property fees being more than a few thousand possible 10’s of thousands. That’s not impossible. Even if they have some significant debt from Ross’ bail or legal fees, it shouldn’t take Carol selling her house to keep the building a float. She’s potentially cashing out a half million if not more just briefly looking at the house they have (Based on California’s insane real estate prices, Indiana is likely much cheaper but still). Where is the money going?
I’m kind of curious how many members left the church over Ross’ bail. It was a big, touchy subject, and it must’ve caused some strife and rifts with more families than just Hank and Carol, right? Churches face major drama over much smaller conflicts. If a lot of families left over the bail decision they really might be having financial stress that church leadership wasn’t fully prepared for.
WOW, You think you’re numb to Carol’s audacity and then she goes ahead and explicitly confirms that not only has she done no self-reflection vis a vie her actions leading to a mass kidnapping and multiple preventable deaths, she’s actively down to repeat those same actions all over again !!!
the head of the church would probably be targeted first with every other member maybe having a civil lawsuit against them or so but becky’s dad might be considered the most responsible for his actions otherwise no one would ever risk paying anyone else’s bail ever
She’s not. Paying someone’s bail doesn’t make you an accessory.
Consider how badly that would play out in more normal bail cases. You lose the money anyway, but getting charged if you bail your kid out and he reoffends?
The thing I really dont get is if she sells the house and just gives the money away, and she’s divorced from her husband, where is she going to….live??? Does she have a job? Probably not! What is her plan here exactly?
If she does try to guilt Joyce into staying that would put her comment about the dorm looking smaller then she remembers in a different light. And here I thought she was actually admitting to Joyce that she had a point about having nowhere to put the boxes.
Joyce loved that church before they were bigots to Becky. Then they enabled that traumatic armed kidnapping, and got Becky’s dad / their congregant murdered right in front of Joyce & pals, making Becky a homeless orphan, also Mike got killed, which spoiled a Halloween party. Priorities.
Yeah, “got our friend killed” is the least-complicated thing in the Reasons to Resent the Church there. Still not uncomplicated, but easiest thing to point to that no one can argue against being bad.
The sad part is that for Becky, “Homeless orphan” was a step up from “homeless because her dad tried to kidnap her and went to prison and the mortgage still needs paying” in a purely financial sense. (Emotionally… well.)
I wonder if Carol understand that, even if she goes through with this, it’s probably *just* going to be her putting herself anywhere near that out there.
I also wonder if this is because of people like Linda Walkerton seeking damages (rare Linda W, to be sure), or if Blaine’s “miracle” donation came back to bite them if he didn’t have the kind of pull to be giving that kind of money away for his petty bullshit, and the Korean mob want it back.
I doubt it’s any of that. They posted bail likely convinced Ross was innocent and thinking they’d get the money back. Dude immediately teamed up with an insane mob stooge to kidnap minors. He likely missed his court date. No returned bail means church can’t pay whatever property fees they have and are thus screwed. No suing or mob extortion needed.
He did miss his court date coz he was dead. That’s a pretty compelling reason… And given that his primary co-conspirator “shot himself” and also was not tried in a court of law, and presumably the dudebros wouldn’t have necessarily known which of the evil dads was primarily behind the plan, he hasn’t been found guilty for ANY of his actions by a court of law. So presumably the money is going towards Linda’s lawsuit (think for civil matters the burden of proof is slightly lower than for criminal? So the fact that they gave the money to Blaine to bail out Toedad, and the paper trail, Dudebros and victims have consistently testified that the evil dads rented the house, recruited the Dudebros, kidnapped the kids, etc, and their plan was to lure both Becky and Amazigirl there, and that definitely violated bail conditions (as well as being criminal activity while on bail) and the fight with Amazigirl led to Mike’s death, means that they have a civil culpability for Toedad’s actions and an argument can be made that they helped fund Blaine’s part in them too?
But not sure if they’d get the bail itself back or not? 🤷🏻♀️
Pretty sure that’s all enough to keep the bail from being returned.
I’d be kind of surprised if the church itself put money into the bail rather than just informally organizing a campaign to raise money for that purpose..
Hmmm… what DOES happen to bail money in the case of someone who is killed while committing a crime when out on bail?
You’re right that they still haven’t been found “guilty” in a court of law, and if a suspect dies of natural causes the bail money would be returned. But toedad was most definitely violating the terms of his bail at the time, so if he was caught just a few hours earlier the bail money would be gone.
unfortunately that doesn’t stop some ppl but maybe sarah can use her law school studies or even ask carla to help out set up a formal restraining order
The terms are at least somewhat interchangeable. Neither is inherently violent. They simply lack empathy and remorse, and often suffer from poor impulse control.
I kind of feel like Carol’s being used here. Like this sounds insane to me. I don’t care how much you love the church selling your home feels really irrational. Is the church gonna keep Carol off the street? I don’t understand her reasoning. If the church actually cares about it’s community they could operate inside Carol’s house or anywhere honestly. It’s the people that matter, not the property.
If Carol does indeed intend to stay in Joyce’s dorm as theorized I want both Joyce and Joe to tell her to go back to the congregation, if the church really loves its community so much then let the community take you in.
Staying in Joyce’s dorm is just not an option. I’d find it odd if she even suggests it. Joyce wouldn’t even have to confront her over it, just drop a word to Ruth and she’d either be removed physically or the higher ups on the campus would step in.
And it can’t really be hidden like Becky was. Another college age kid hanging around isn’t remarkable. A parent sticks out like a sore thumb.
It would definatly be an unreasonable an unattainable expectation but Carol isn’t exactly the reasonable type and I could 100% see her saying something along the lines of ” if you found room for Becky then you can find room for your own mother!”
I wonder if she’s actually told anyone at the church yet. It could be a surprise yet to come. Standing up during the offering with the check in hand, declaring that she’s here today to Save the Church and spilling her story, somehow sounds like her style.
Like she’s preparing a suprise testmonial in some sunday service, right?
I believe it’s totally the opposite, the church is pressing Carol, because the Ross thing were tots her idea.
But your theory is very plausible. Can’t wait until the end of storyline.
I’d say that if she wasn’t one of the ringleaders in getting Toedad bailed out with church funds.
Honestly, I wonder if that’s what’s motivating this, guilt over at least some of what’s happened as a result, and she’s going for big gestures to try to absolve herself.
maybe it’s ‘updated’ since then but i remember joyce getting defense at one point liek “my church is a /real/ church, it was just um, also an auditorium” so it could just be the pastor asking for more than they need to make up for the fees and such
It’s entirely possible they use the building for more than just prayer and worship. They might host AA meetings, or run a soup kitchen or food pantry, or a clothing bank. As little as I agree with their beliefs, they do sometimes provide some legit services for the community. Based on the description we’ve heard, the pastor and the congregants are probably sincere in their beliefs, however nutty. Scammers tend to go for something fancier.
I don’t think that’s implied at all – at least nothing about Blaine’s plan.
Ross going to get his daughter possibly.
Beyond that though, neither of those things means they don’t do traditional church service activities – like soup kitchens or clothing banks or whatever. People are complicated and can do acts of charity on one hand and gross discrimination with the other.
Carol’s lines of “I didn’t think he’d actually do it” and “no matter what happens, I love you” (the last ones paraphrased, of course) to both instances of violence imply otherwise.
Maybe it isn’t only because of building, but mainly because of christians losing field against who ever are taking their children, their faith from them.
What are they going to pay rent with, for a new location?
And when they change locations, they’ll lose some congregants. If they have a sound system installed, does that come with them?
Even though I know it would probably be piling too many elements into the scene I kinda hope Amber is passing by in the hall just in time to hear this getting shouted, her reaction to Joyce even needing to argue that with someone would be an interesting oil to toss on this fire. (And she’d be more likely than Joyce or Joe to snap and punch Carol square in the kisser over any BS about his death being part of god’s plan to give her a chance to save their church.)
I can’t find her saying that. I do recall her saying that people who were against Ross’s “mission” “won.” but as far as I know, Walky’s family, the ones who were doing the callout and provoked that response from her, aren’t atheists, nor did she accuse them of being such.
She literally said “it’s the transgenders that did this to you”, complained about being persecuted for wanting to “raise our kids right”, as well as compared atheists to Nazis. I think that it’s safe to assume to Carol has a boner for everyone being evil. In the event in question, she said “you people”.
And the ads just keep getting weirder. Today I’m seeing ads for Narcan and carwashes, instead of the usual nutritional supplements and women’s underwear.
“Here’s something you definitely don’t need more of right now, so all we’re actually doing is giving you a reason to avoid our creepy-ass company that you were already buying from!”
And I get how there are spots where she seems so nice in between the craziness and blatant disregard for her children. That’s incredibly realistic with a lot of these fundamentalists. She’s tragic on top of being awful. I don’t know how I would unpack it all.
Okay I’ve actually done some research on this now cause it was bothering me. First things first. They actually got Ross out on bond. Bond money does not get returned because you’re essentially paying another entity to post bail by paying a percentage of that bail to the bondsmen plus interest. It’s how they make money.
Second. Ross’ bail was set at some “ridiculously high price” for a guy whose only crime was terrorizing a college campus with a loaded gun, firing that gun multiple times at people with intent to kill, and participating in a high speed escape attempt. I mean isn’t this America?
To me “ridiculously high” means enough where even bond was probably in the tens if not hundreds of thousands. Enough where the church was definitely putting themselves out there and they seemed very desperate.
Thirdly the Brown home looks like a decently sized 1 story house.
Just googling it rates range between around 300 thousand to over half a million. We’ll say maybe Carol would get 250k if she likely accepts any reasonable offer just for the payout.
Still think Carol’s getting scammed though. Something fishy is up with that church if one divorced old lady feels she needs to sell her house to save the building.
Linda is also probably suing the church and presumably the church thus has legal costs.
I’m sure someone’s going to tell me the church wasn’t doing anything illegal by paying someone’s bond but it’s not like that means Linda’s case doesn’t have some other basis that wouldn’t be thrown out prima facie.
That said, they could totally be scamming Carol. It wouldn’t exactly be an unknown case for someone to get scammed by their church.
Bond is a percentage of bail. For even the bond to be a million bucks Ross’ bail would have to be multiple millions of dollars. Any judge deciding to set bail that high is better off denying it. Carol selling her house wouldn’t even begin to cover that.
I have to wonder if the bondsman has any claim against the church, since they may have misrepresented Ross’s intentions when they covered the bond. If so, it could be the bondsman suing the church for the balance of the bail.
I’m not a lawyer, but I think it’s actually worse than you know. Let’s say bail was set at $100k, so the church paid a bondsman $10k, who then paid the bail to get Toedad out. He makes his court dates, is convicted, and the bondsman get the $100k back, keeping $10k as profits.
Only Toedad didn’t make his court appearance. Which means by my understanding that the church, as co-signer on the bond, now owes the bondsman the full $90k balance.
The church shouldn’t have had some weirdo out of nowhere pick him up from the jail.
But he didn’t make the appearance coz he was dead. Dead coz he died during the course of committing more crimes while on bail, yes, but he was not arrested, tried and convicted for those so that may be a technicality?
Church should never have allowed itself to be the legal entity contracting with the bondsman.
How does that work normally? Do you need to get a 3rd party to contract with the bondsman? Or can you pay him yourself? Even if you borrow from friends to get the money to do so?
We need more details, cause depending on the kind of bond they got they’re responsible for the percentage, the full bail, or even forfeiture of the church property as collateral. Although honestly instead of Carol selling her house they need to hire a lawyer. Situations like this happen all the time.
Do take into account the mentality of the old lady. Carol deciding she needs to her sell her house does not mean it’s an actual justifiable ‘old lady needs to sell her house’ situation.
Joyce mentioned “our friend” being dead. I forgot that Mike had died, and thought Joyce was referring to Toedad as the “dead friend” (which would have been a weird day to refer to him given the circumstances.)
like fr I feel like the dorm/students have a right to kick her ass out because of her direct association with the death of another student there. then again my own alma mater wasn’t exactly fair with who they decided to trespass so maybe I’m just being idealistic.
Well, at least she pretty much admitted God didn’t tell her anything in a dream, but she decided to do it because she wants to ruin herself (and incidentally Joyce too) to save her church. Which is still madness, but at least without weird visions. Is sad to see a person like this. Desperate and determined to do a very stupid thing.
I don’t think she wants to “ruin” herself or Joyce. The church is in financial trouble, so of course she had a dream where God tells her to sell her house. But, being the fundie she is, she decides it’s a “vision” and that she needs to do it. How it would affect Joyce or anyone else was never something she considered.
Jesus, he knows me and he knows I’m right
I’ve been talking to Jesus all my life
Oh yes, he knows me and he knows I’m right
Well, he’s been telling me everything’s gonna be alright
Weird conundrum. If we put aside that this is a church of crimes, but imagine it’s the community’s sole form of school, government and communal meeting place; the last light of justice and reason in a dark age. How can it be possible you need to sell your home to give them money? Did they spend the “entire treasury” on getting this one guy out of jail as a token gesture of support, or maybe hoping he’d just run away to escape trial? For such a supposed vital institution, that’s such shockingly bad finance. Unless they’re maybe just really corrupt and uses all the money the community throws at them to buy themselves luxuries or something, but I mean, something doesn’t add up and that’s the kind of thing you should probably be suspicious about before you bet the farm on them.
Well, keep in mind that Joyce’s brother (John) drives a sports car given to him by the church and is currently doing “missionary work” in India (probably also funded by the church). I can’t remember if the church in question is Joyce’s or if he goes to another, but it might be a sign that Joyce’s church is wasteful with their money.
The church probably doesn’t have a deep savings account. They probably spend almost as much as they get in. If they get a little more money, well, the roof does need some work. Leaving the mop bucket in the middle of one of the Sunday school rooms on rainy days is inconvenient. Never mind the damage that can’t be seen. Or, maybe it’s time to replace that old air-conditioner. It’s only barely able to get the temperature down to the mid-80’s on a hot day, and the electric bills are starting to show just how inefficient it is. Or even, hey, we have enough to sponsor a youth group trip, and cover half the expenses for everyone who wants to go this year. There’s always something breaking, and always something that needs money. Sometimes, these expenses can be deferred, for a time. Often at the cost of a bigger payment later, such as having to fix the roof, repair/replace the ceiling, AND deal with the mold and rot in the roof from letting the roof leak for so long.
I find it very credible that the church was operating at the limits of its means. A big stress, such as being forced to pay back a bondsman, or defend themselves from a lawsuit, or possibly a sustained lawfare assault by the Walkertons, or even cover for lost tithes, as some of their parishioners got fed up with the rest, and the direction the church as going, and fled to other churches, could easily threaten to force it under.
The church gave John a free Mustang. If it WAS operating at the limits of its means, it was only because it kept having its agents living very large. It’s a scaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmm.
I didn’t get that John was a missionary from THEIR congregation, and the comics that have him linked don’t lead me to that conclusion, either.
Quite the opposite. His wife couldn’t make the “day trip”. That implies that, even when he’s in the states, he’s far enough away that dropping by his parent’s house takes enough time to be inconvenient. Probably an hour or so distant, would be my guess.|
Not that you’re wrong. A church that doesn’t have the oversight to prevent its clergy from voting itself all the pay raises is in a bad place. But that’s not necessarily Joyce’s old church.
This. I am having a really hard time believing that the elders would sign off on such an irregular expenditure. Churches just do not have tens of thousands of dollars lying around unused; it’s all committed. When an unexpected expense comes along, it’s time to pass the plate for a special offering, ‘cos there’s no money to cover it.
Being in jail or being out on bail effects a person’s life, a lot. Like they can work if they’re out on bail, and meet with a lawyer freely. It’s not just a token gesture of support. It’s actual support. Just in this case really poor judgement.
Being bad at finance is pretty plausible for a church.
I’m sure it’s been discussed already but I’ve only just now realized the Chapter Title is a reference to Cheap Trick’s Surrender:
“Your mommy’s alright,
Your Daddy’s alright,
They just seem a little weeiiiird.
Surrender,
Surrender,
But don’t give yourself awaaaaay”
A lot of comments assuming that 100% of the sale of the house is going to the church, but it seems far more likely that she’s selling it to buy a cheaper house and donating the difference.
Then again, it’s been made clear that she’s lost the plot more than a little, so who knows…
They didn’t spend anything on Blaine, he died before he even went to jail, Blaine contributed to Toedad’s bail even.
But because they posted Toedad’s bail, the Church was likely sued and held liable, and the money they put up for bail was likely forfeit as a result of him committing a second crime too. These two things likely drained any money the church did have.
It’s frankly bizarre if they are liable for his crimes just because they posted bail. It would be frankly saner to have the judge be liable for allowing him to go out on bail – but once the judge decides that they can be release if he pays bail, how the fuck does paying that bail make someone guiltt of anything? It’s the judges that decided that’s how bail works.
For a bail bond, the bondsman gets paid a fee like 10-15%, that they keep, and also hold something as collateral (jewelry, lien, etc), that they return the collateral. If the defendant violates the conditions of their bail, they do not get the collateral back from the bondsman.
If a third party decides to pay someone’s bail, they say they’re confident the defendant won’t violate the conditions of their pre-trial release, and will forfeit the money/property if they do.
Putting someone on remand is intended to make sure of two things: they will not flee and they will not commit further crimes.
Posting bail for someone is basically a promise that you will ensure they do not miss their court dates, commit further crimes or break any additional conditions of the bail. If they commit further crimes, they will usually be put on remand and your bail money will be forfeit.
That’s why you shouldn’t go around posting bail for people you do not trust extremely well, especially if it is a high amount you can’t really afford to spend, it’s not just a monetary inconvenience, it is taking on the duty of the jail/prison. And money you have used, will be forfeit if this person decides to flee or commit more crimes.
In this case as well, the church knew Ross was violent, knew he would likely commit further violence, and did nothing to stop him. So they would be liable in civil court most likely for negligence as they created the risk by posting his bail and doing nothing to stop him, knowing he would likely try to kidnap his daughter again.
The judge only decides on how much bail costs and if there are additional conditions, but this is built on past precedent, it doesn’t mean ‘this person is perfectly safe’. It means they will only be trusted with some degree of freedom, if someone will vouch for them with money as collateral. Because people care a lot about their money, and will do a lot to prevent losing it, therefore it should keep most people in check or make their loved ones keep a close eye on them.
If you had no way of reasonably knowing, you wouldn’t be held liable. But Joyce’s church not only KNEW what kind of actions Ross would likely take, they agreed with them, and gave him the freedom to act on them on purpose.
wow, not only did she sell her house, but she sold it for the worst, most asinine reason possible, I hope the bongo ends up on the streets, and her precious church won’t help her.
Taking time to consider all of this, it still seems like a shitty thing to do to your family. If you can’t be talked out of it then you should at least let them go through the house one more time, preferably before taking everything out and leaving.
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God did love death tho, if the Bible has anything to say
Wow! That one’s getting bookmarked!
(It neglects to mention the massacre of the Benjamites, though. Missed one!)
And I’m the Torah during Exodus God hardens the Pharaoh’s heart, so anyone that the guy killed from then on is God’s fault.
Not to mention, disproves completely that God refuses to interfere with “Free Will”.
I think #59 “The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins” covers that one
I clicked the link and malwarebytes blocked the site due to trojan. I suggest people be careful with that link.
I do love the “mostly”.
Can’t say she’s not being honest!
And Mike would have “loved” Carol for a nickle.
I think even Mike would’ve raised his rates before he’d been willing to consider that.
Two nickles?
Inflation.
Mike actually paid Carol a nickel for sweet lovin’.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/plan/
…why WAS mike even there? keeping an eye on ethan dating someone he shouldn’t be dating perhaps??
oh I clicked a few more comics forward, yeah it’s reasonably clear he Does Not Approve of ethan/joyce (unsurprisingly)
If the strip linked below is anything to go by Mike didn’t charge nickles, he paid them.
Book title.
Mike would heartily approve Joyce’s line. But would he like to be referred to as a friend?
I think in the end, the answer would have been yes. Though like Sarah, he’d have been loathe to admit it.
It’s gonna get worse, til it’s gonna get better.
Eh, I highly doubt there’s a “get better” happening in Carol’s future.
No, but there will be in Joyce’s. It’s just probably going to require cutting her mother out of her life completely.
At least she’s told her mother just what she thinks of the lunacy. She’ll always know she said her piece and her mother picked that church over her, over the family, over morality. Carol is siding with her terrorist cult in direct contradiction to everything she ever taught Joyce. Unfortunately a scene played out over and over again as white Americans chose Fox News and far-right extremism over their families and even their own lives.
Is it in direct contradiction, though?
Joyce was *super fucked up* at the start of the strip.
I hate Carol more and more with every day, which sounds like what Joyce is realizing too.
Yeah at this point I’m starting to wonder just how autobiographical Joyce’s story is. How deep does this run in parallel with Mr. Willis’s parents story?
This is awful.
Willis’s mother did EXACTLY this (minus, I think, the whole “bailing out a kidnapper/attempted murderer” factor).
With the added wrinkle that the church folded in a few years anyway.
I’m new to the Walkyverse with DoA – mind if I ask, how do commentors here knowthings like this? That Willis’ mother sold their home to fund a failing church for example?
Also, YIKES, that’s really awful that the church would TAKE those funds. Even without the cut-and-dried murderer-bail-out it raises a whole host of ethical questions that most mainstream churches in the UK would gape at in horror.
Willis has said so.
I suppose that’s what I was asking?
Where does he say these things? Can I follow it?
Look on the bright side — Patt Robertson, bloated bigoted founder of the CBN and prime peddler of this drivel, is now dead!!!!
Let’s celebrate with a dance!!! 🔥✌️😈🔥
*plays “Lucifer’s Dance” from Bleach: Hell Verse OST on hacked muzak*
Pat Robertson is dead, Robert Pattinson is very much alive (for the many people who apparently misread the headlines today), and I’m dancing happily, lol
Lol good
I said yesterday that you shouldn’t celebrate the death of any human being
Fortunately he wasn’t a human being so celebrate away
Denying someones humanity is a hell of a lot shitier than celebrating the death of a man who indirectly killed thousands minimum probably much higher thanks to his influence on American politics and his homophobic bullshit.
Othering and dehumanizing people who do shit like he did also helps us turn a blind eye to those close to us doing them because well they aren’t inhuman monsters so they can’t be like that right?
So fuck that bullshit. Pat Robertson was human, he is dead, now lets get the party hats and celebrate the fact that he isn’t making peoples lives miserable anymore.
Yikes, he was that bad?! I thought he just another dime a dozen megachurch Ponzi pastor with an interest in politics and he just happened to be one of the first into the market. Still, my point stands.
I was going to say something about Nixon but I realized I’m mixing up Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan. Again. Same shit different lens, I guess.
He was seriously that bad. There are some pointed summaries of his effects on politics today. He is directly responsible for Republicans being such extreme right-wingers, a complete violation of the principle of separation of church and state that the United States was founded on.
I thought the same and looked through some of the reasons he’s so reviled. It’s all pretty tame individually (like, pretty horrible, but also pretty normal out of touch white trumpie fundie horrible, like Carol up here), but when you consider that he was the centerpoint for Broadcasting those views, and did so for 60 years, it makes a lot more sense that people hate him. Just like Rush was the voice of pointless hatebait, Pat was the voice of christian hatebait, and a successful televangelist grifter on top.
All of this. Take my imaginary upvote.
Yay! ^.^
I understand this sentiment and I sympathize, but I’m frustrated by how many people tend to police people’s reactions this way.
Yes, he was human. I’m sure alongcameaspider knows that. That said, he was a shitty human and so if somebody wants to not-literally revoke his humanity card, I’m not going to object to that. Alongcameaspider hasn’t denied anyone doing something shitty here and so your hypothetical is not helpful here.
Alongcameaspider’s reply also started off by policing other’s reactions. It turns into a joke with the second part, but it’s still there. It’s true that Alongcameaspider didn’t personally do what can happen with these kinds of ideas; it’s also true that it happens and is built on sentiments like these.
Honestly, I think Alongcameaspider was just having a bit of fun, but I do deeply hate the No True Scotsman move of “doesn’t count as human,” which does come up often.
I concur.
Alongcameaspider was agreeing with the person above them – I checked yesterday and that was the case there too. I think it’s being overly literal to read that as policing.
Like I said, I sympathize with disliking the “No true Scotsman” aspect of it and I’m not saying it’s never dangerous to do that, but I don’t think when people are upset or angry and venting over something horrible someone did to them or their community (or, in this case, are celebrating that they CAN’T do those things anymore) is a good time to nitpick and police that.
Personally I think in this case “doesn’t count” is more of a rejection of said person than a “humans would never do this” thing, but like I said, I get why that would bother people too.
I don’t thinking it’s super policing, really, but it’s about as policing as anything Proxiehunter said.
Come on, from what little I know of him he peddled hate for money and did more damage than good to our political system, but he was still a living being with hopes and dreams and family who, probably loved him. Also, he was in his 90’s and probably out of the game at this point so its not like his death stops him hurting others – its just kind of sad.
After all I think a lot of bible stuff is pretty crazy and the hard core “only through me stuff” is at best a Darwinian survival relic of the war of religions for people’s devotion, power, and money, but I think the big concept that its never too late to try to make amends and start again is true. I am more sad, Robert Pattinson never tried to undo some of his damage than happy that he is dead. We all make mistakes and we all die eventually – best not to think or feel to much about that – how much we try to make up for the former is the choice – better to try to feel and think a lot about that one.
It’s a good thing he’s dead, he hurt millions and cheered on the deaths of just as many. Do not try to deny us our celebrations.
AIDS patients were also living beings with hopes and dreams and family who, sometimes, bothered to love them, and he encouraged them to die, helped fund and foster actions that directly resulted in more deaths, and was quite happy about it the whole time.
You feel free to mourn the bastard. I’ll be over here mourning elders in my community and direct family members who were hurt by him.
A great deal of the damage he did to the political system has directly led to an incredible amount of pain and suffering, and yes I’m prepared to say death as well. The fact that he was a human being with hopes and dreams does not mitigate that, in fact it should serve as a reminder that the greatest monsters of history have all been very human, and it’s all of our responsibilities to acknowledge our failings, from species to societal to personal, and to work to address them.
It also behooves us to understand that he achieved some of his hopes and dreams, and that led us to where we are today. He never wanted to atone for his actions, he believed he was right and also righteous. You do no good sanding down people’s feelings about him. He damaged countless lives and the structural damage he did in the USA will be felt for generations to come and has well earned the ire that’s directed at him. Let people feel how they feel about him. If your knowledge is limited of him, which it sounds like you feel it is, I think your time and energy would be better-spent learning and understanding why he is so reviled by so many rather than telling those who know more about him how they should be feeling about his death.
Also, Robert Pattinson is an actor and is very much alive. Pat Robertson is the one who died.
Amen.
Nah, it’s not sad. Fuck his family and friends, too. His “hopes and dreams” involved multiple forms of genocide. The only problem I’ve got with his death is that it didn’t come sooner. Defending shit is a bad look.
In fairness his family can’t help being related to him. They don’t necessarily share his politics or worldview.
They can’t help being related, but his son can sure help being the president of his cultist broadcasting network.
Joining my voice to the chorus of “fuck that noise.” Pat Robertson (not Robert Pattinson) was a piece of shit and the only problem with his death is that it happened at 93 and not 39 or earlier. Also fuck the “never too late to make amends” bullshit: he did irreparable harm including (but far from limited to) getting countless innocents killed. Fuck him, fuck his friends, and fuck any of his family that cared about him. Piss on his grave.
To borrow a line often attributed to Bette Davis:
“No one should say anything bad about the dead, you should only say good. Pat Robertson is dead. Good.”
What is your logic?
Whence the rule that we shouldn’t celebrate the death of a human being? Who said that? Why?
And how do you judge that Pat Robertson wasn’t human? Like, where do you draw the line? This comment is just deeply strange to me.
My logic is people like him should be treated the way they treated others
He made his living dehumanizing others so I dont feel bad dehumanizing him
I don’t like dehumanizing even the worst people. Not for their sake, but because it makes it harder to recognize bad behavior in others, when you don’t already see them as monsters.
This kind of thing is very, very human. Ordinary people who otherwise seem nice can be evil.
oh ok! that does make a kind of sense.
i still don’t agree with you for a bunch of reasons, but meh!
I don’t celebrate death.
I mourn that he never became a human.
Pat Robinson Is Dead Everybody!
Robertson. (Curse the lack of a delete button)
Though to paraphrase another (who’s name I can’t recall ATM):
May Robertson’s family receive all the love and support Robertson himself worked to deny others.
When I saw the news, my first response was to sing “Ding Dong The D*ck Is Dead,” but as the day passed I started to feel deeply sad about this.
I keep thinking about a She-Ra quote:
“I’m not just crying for Hordak. I’m crying for the saddest thing I know: a wasted life. To be given that most precious gift – the gift of living – to do with as we choose… I’m crying because this man has chosen to throw it away. And when he’s gone, nobody will care. “
why are so many of you talking like that?? Do you feel that way about Hitler’s death too, or Bin Laden’s or whoever your monster of choice may be? If you don’t care to be a bit more discriminating with your empathy and grief, maybe refrain from expressing it in a thread dedicated to pissing on the bastard’s smoking corpse.
I don’t think talking like that is a reflection on Pat Robertson, who deserves exactly as much sympathy as he himself had for LGBTQ+ folks, but more along the lines of “I want to be a better person than he was, and that includes trying to feel pity instead of hate.”
Yeah well i’m seeing a lot of tearing up over the supposed “wasting” of a white cis straight male american life, and no words for the avoidable victims of the AIDS crisis, the Haitian earthquake or Charles Taylor’s regime of terror.
This is pride month, a raging racist and homophobe is dead, and affects and discourses surrounding that death are political. Being all boohoo what a sad waste is a bummer and suggests no course of action when we could be expressing energetic, collective sentiments like queer joy and anger.
Hatred of Robertson and glee at his demise have NOTHING in common with the cumstain’s own hatred of marginalized people. Affects are not values, they are not disembodied and contextless.
Also, they throw parties when one of us dies. They send death threats to the mourning families. They protest our right to even have a funeral, at the funeral. It’s nice to have empathy, but putting myself in their place makes me physically ill and I don’t see a benefit to it. Saying “hey be nice he had a family” devalues the families who have actually lost someone, especially the ones he directly affected with his own actions. When I die, my family won’t even be able to afford a headstone, but I’m supposed to be nice to the conman who had something like 100mil in assets? No.
yeah they can have all the empathy for pat they want it ain’t going to do jack shit. isn’t going to make them a better person for it, isn’t going to do anything material to make the world better. all it does is boost their ego for a minute.
*desperately pokes screen, trying to find an upvote button*
I can’t choose to turn my empathy off and on. There’s a number of people I truly hope die, but that doesn’t make me feel any less gross for feeling that way.
He was worse than you know. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson_controversies
“Jim (Baker) and Pat should take a pole, Right up each saintly Glory Hole, With tar and feathers, too; Just like they’d want to do to YOU!” Frank Zappa, ” “Jesus Thinks You’re A Jerk”, 1988.
And James Gaius Watt from Reagan’s cabinet. (Not the already-passed Scottish engineer.)
JGW was known as the anti-environmentalist. Some kind of Gaia envy that Gaius had, hmm?
Don’t hate the man, hate the message. The message/idea is still alive and well. The death of one man will have little to no impact on that at this point.
i think i can manage to hate both the man and the message, tyvm
Point taken, but the emphasis around here seemed to be on the man and I feel that the man distracts from the more important problem.
no it doesn’t, what are you talking about? no one is under the impression that robertson’s death has solved homophobia. why can we not all just hoot and high-five the reaper for finally pinching off this one bastard??? why do we have to debate this??? it’s like the nazi punching debate all over again. one egregious motherfucker dropping dead of old age doesn’t solve shit, but it makes me happy ok???
I’m down for hooting and high-fiving the reaper, just to put that on record. And I agree, it’s not up for debate that the guy’s death is objectively an improvement on the planet. Even if all his legacy (which, why the fuck does he get to have one) is still intact and the machine has already been set in motion decades ago, at least the guy who flipped the switch and pushed the machine out of the pothole is brown dust.
No, definitely hate the man.
And also the message, ofc.
Indeed, better to weaken or destroy that message.
So is this when mom finds out her daughter is an Atheist?
Also, will she blame Dorothy, the entire friend group, or the college?
Immigrants. Somehow, hell if I know how these peoples’ brains work.
No, no, she’s already blamed the target du anneé. “The transgenders.”
Yeah, but now she can’t blame them for something else for a couple hours. It’s on cooldown. You know, like an MMORPG.
Massively Moronic Overly Rightwing Political Gibberish.
Let’s be real – transphobes don’t have cooldowns on being transphobic, they have daily quotas.
That made me smile. Did you mind if I steal that MMORPG joke for use with my friends? Its gold.
Or possibly drag queens. That seems to be the other current right wingnut obsession. Apparently nothing on earth terrifies them more than a man with a dress and a book.
Do they understand the difference between a drag queen and a trans woman?
Given they want both groups to go pretend to be cis and gender-conforming, their rhetoric requires them to *not* know the difference.
Pretty sure they understand the difference subconsciously, though – just to know which groups they can pick on when.
No more than they understand the difference between a progressive, a socialist, and a communist.
They don’t understand the difference between hot and cold. They just know that sometimes water comes out of their skin and sometimes they shake a lot.
It’s a mix of they don’t, and they intentionally conflate the two for political/hate reasons.
Which means she’ll blame Dina?
All of the abovd and probably also blame anime transgender folk and hip hop and rock and roll.
Why not throw video games (or any type of game) in there too?
As long as she doesn’t blame herself I mean she can’t possibly responsible.
I’m sure she’ll spread the blame around. The autism diagnosis will get blamed too if that somehow comes up.
Taking bets on whether Carol will deny Joyce’s autism or claim that someone or something “turned her autistic.”
Either way, the meltdown is gonna be goddamn glorious to behold.
Dumbing of Age Book 13: I Loved Mike Being Alive! Mostly!
Yep, Isaac, Jesus, the Pharoe’s first born…[$DEITY] loves them some death.
You and me both, panel 4 Joe.
I’m still on panel 3, personally.
I imagine if Imagonary Mike was there he’d just nod and go “Fair.”
*Imaginary, dangit.
“Imagonary” sounds like the title of a middle book in a sword-and-sorcery series.
And now I wish Amber was checking up on Joe.
God I hate this woman cannot wait for a truck or something to run her over
Oh no no no no I don’t want her to get isekai’d somewhere and ruin THAT place too.
But if she gains a system, the system might require her to be a decent person (while also gaining awesome powers).
She would have a Heart Attack as soon as she got there since most of those places tend to have more then one god, none of which are her god. Either that or she would be extremely rude to said gods and get herself smited.
Someone has written a xian missionary isekai, I guarantee it.
Might make an interesting villain character. I don’t know if they would be able to convincingly write the person learning how to be a better person well enough.
Hear me out. We send her to Japan to get hit by a truck and make her Aqua’s problem. I mean we’d also have to convince Aqua that Carol is a teenager but it shouldn’t be that hard Aqua’s dumb enough that she’s forgotten she’s a goddess at least once.
Once Aqua sends her off to the new world she’ll encounter the Axis cult and start harassing them for their un(Carrol’s)godly ways. Axis cult vs. Carol fight, whoever loses the world wins.
Who?
It’s a reference to an anime called Konosuba.
Can’t we just introduce her to Light Yagami and let events unfold naturally?
This would require her to first act with integrity which won’t happen, to my regret
what you did there, i see it
Why waste money replacing whatever part of the truck she has the audacity to dent?
Mostly
I dunno if I’d go so far as to say “loved”. Like, I love pizza. But Mike being alive is more a take-it-or-leave-it thing. I mean sure, it’s fine. I like it more than Mike being dead. But love is overselling it a bit.
yeah i imagine joyce probably wouldnt’ have bothered talking to mike at all if he wasn’t walky’s roommate/somewhat in her class/group but i’m she wouldn’t repeat the “i mean, /some/ days he came close to deserving it” to her mom like she did with ehr dad
Loving someone alive us not the same as loving them. His being alive was a support system for Amber and Ethan, both she cares about deeply. Him being alive would have meant the church hadnt bailed out McIntyre and that he and OMalley weren’t trying to kidnap people…. yeah, Mike was the canary in the coal mine and if nothing else his being alive meant nothing else was being poisoned. That said people are allowed to have complex feelings… retroactively she probably thinks it’s hilarious Mike Hail Sataned/lied to her mom to protect Becky.
I’m going to be positive and think that maybe Hank got a good deal in the divorce settlement because Carol was in a rush to get clear title to the house so she could sell it.
So he got to keep his practice, IRA, etc.
Based on the conversation a few days ago I think it’s more likely that they did it for parity, since she didn’t have the earning potential of Hank.
I wonder what’s going to happen when John tries to guilt Joyce into taking her in once she’s burned through what was supposed to be her nestegg. Because traditionally it’s the daughter’s job to take care of parents and I imagine John doesn’t want Carol, Jordan is Jordan, and Jocylene wouldn’t be considered her daughter.
Great excuse to never talk to him again either, yikes, take Carol in like a stray kitten!
> traditionally it’s the daughter’s job to take care of parents
wait what?
Now I am flashing back to “Like Water For Chocolate” where the youngest sister is not allowed to marry because she will have to take care of her mother. So her mother suggests that her beau marry an older sister instead. Which he agrees to like a dumbass instead of just asking her to elope or something.
🤨😧 OK, so she responds by running off, saving up and getting a scholarship to college and building herself an awesome, independent future away from all of those losers? Yes? 🥺
Coz you’re kinda better off without the sort of beau who’ll happily accept your sister as a substitute for you because your future has been preordained without reference to your wishes, or parents who’d suggest it, or try to do that to you… That’s just all HORRIBLE!! Children are not chattel, not even daughters 😡
Sadly, no. 8~~~-({
Based on what little we have seen of John, he’s your traditional religious sexist.
I’f we’re gonna talk tradition, shouldn’t it be the eldest son’s job? John? Got a Scripture reference for that?
And there it is.
Well called, everyone who called it.
I mean it’s autobiographical, so people who were familiar with Willis talking about didn’t really ‘call’ it so much as ‘oh no, this is that part isn’t it.’
Pretty much. :\
Ah, gotcha. I know it’s autobiographical in broad outlines but I didn’t know the house-selling-to-give-to-the-church part was specifically real.
I mean, it’s unsurprising, they do this. But.
At least the real church racked up debt on something besides paying bond for a kidnapper? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So what did God tell everyone else involved to do to keep the church building from being lost?
And did God happen to tell Carol who she’ll be staying with now that she has no house?
Or does she have to figure that part out on her own?
Maybe she’s counting on the “honor thy mother and thy father” part to provide her a place on the couch of the asshole brother with the wife we haven’t met (and I’m sure is 100% real).
As I said above I’m betting on her going to John, and John trying to foist her off as Joyce’s responsibility.
But as a good Christian girl, Joyce is supposed to get married, at which point she effectively becomes part of her husband’s family. I’m sure Linda will disown “Josh” the moment she finds out the truth about Jocelyn. Jordan seems to have vanished (Not that I blame him.), so John’s stuck with her. Since his beliefs seem to be pretty shallow and opportunistic, she’s SOL.
Can’t really foist her off on Joyce in the short term. Joyce doesn’t have a place to put her. That would be likely to happen, but not for a decade or two. When Carol’s getting too old to live on her own and Joyce is better established.
lol would be interesting if there was just a one on one of “god told me to X” and do opposing views but i guess it’d probably be at a standstill
i imagine if she’s not the only one who sold their home , maybe the church would have ‘spare’ rooms to stay in
As someone with an overly religious parent, if “God” did not provide a direct answer to a question, as he is oft to do, it is “God will take care of me, as he works in mysterious ways.”
You know what she loves more than that church? Becky, Dorothy, Sarah, Joe, etc.
Having a home is more important than having a church building. I forget the exact words but, “Where two or more people are gathered in the name of God he shall be there.”
According to that, you don’t need a church building to have church, you don’t even need bibles; all you need is believers gathered together in their love of God.
I know a little about religion despite being an atheist; probably since I had no choice as a kid. Pretending you believe the same the same things as your family can be exhausting.
While I am Agnostic now, I feel the same way, I stopped believeing in god at a fairly young age, before I even hit the teens, so going to church was always a pain. I literally had to take sips of coffee that they had out for me to stay awake. Atleast the Jewish temple I got to go to when at my dad’s house had good food afterwords.
The only reason im not atheist is probably because I hope deep down that there is some really cool explanation, like the elder gods are real or something lol.
You can still be an atheist and agnostic, atheism means you don’t believe but being agnostic is simply about not being able to know if there is a god/are gods. So you can believe there is no god and still believe that there is no way to know for certain; so in that example you are both.
I’d argue that the vast majority of atheists are also agnostic, and vice versa.
“There’s nothing an agnostic can’t do as long as he isn’t sure whether he believes in anything or not.” – MPFC
So you’re saying that you can believe there is no God, while simultaneously claiming that you don’t know if there is a God? How is that supposed to work?
“There is no God! …unless, of course, there is?”
Sounds like the kind of thing that ends with you in a laughing academy.
To me things only make sense if you either believe there is a God, you believe there isn’t a God, or you don’t know or haven’t found persuasive evidence for either the existence or non-existence of God: Theists, atheists, and agnostics.
I mean, to look at it super reductively: the beliefs of a stable person are usually not totally binary, they’re credences on some scale like 0-100%. At some threshold in either direction, we say we “believe” something rather than expressing uncertainty, but that threshold can vary wildly by person, context, and culture. The idea of an agnostic atheist would be someone who has like 20% credence – they don’t feel justified in totally rejecting the possibility, and they’re not certain all believers are wrong, but they’re also probably not going to live their life like there is a god in any way.
The context part matters a lot – I do suspect that a lot of people who described themselves generically as “agnostic” in the 2000s, when I cared about these debates, were effectively atheists but were turned off both by getting ambushed by Uncle Chris for a deep theological argument at Thanksgiving and by being associated with really combative atheists like Hitchens, so reached for a different word.
(I assume agnostic theists are underrepresented because they’re often neither particularly welcomed by their coreligionists *or* by skeptics – it seems like a thankless intellectual row to hoe.)
Fair enough. Though to me, it still seems odd to “believe in” (or not) something that you have serious doubts about.
Though I suppose in a way, it makes more sense to say “I don’t believe in XXX” when you have, say, an 80% certainty it doesn’t exist, but reserve 20% of doubt/openness to being wrong, than to say “I believe in XXX” while harboring 20% doubt about that belief.
And it makes kind of sense, seeing as how the existence of something can conclusively be determined, while proving non-existence is effectively impossible. Which if taken to the extremes would mean strict atheism is impossible, since you never can be 100% sure.
I totally feel you about what you say about really combative atheists. To my mind, for most practical purposes, they appeared to have made their supposed non religiousness into something very akin to a religion. An a fundamentalist religion, at that.
Definitely something you’d want to put some distance to if you don’t share their zealotry.
I do not believe there is a God.
I do not know that there is no God.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Ah, but if they don’t have the building, they might not be eligible for tax exemptions.
That’s stupid Carol you’re being stupid stop being stupid!
Like honestly after all the events that happened in past year alone it’s was best for Joyce and Becky to distance herself from them before they ended up killing them or anymore of their other friends.
A couple straps ago she suggested she wasn’t ready to burn bridges with her mother yet
I think she’s just about there now
When I read, “straps,” I immediately was confused and wondered what straps she had since I didn’t see them.
Took me an extra minute to figure it out.
No, she wasn’t ready to burn bridges then. Had to wait for more gasoline to arrive first.
Well of course she didn’t want to do it, but sometimes people just force your hand.
Panel 3 is just…How many of us have had that reaction in the face of someone we know saying something so out of pocket for their faith?
More and more with each passing year that I’m away from my parents’ church, lol
I also do enjoy my friends being alive, mostly.
Joe’s stubble is so glad they went back inside now, lol.
“Not dealing with any of that, no sir.”
I love sonic the hedgehog but if he killed one of my friends I’d probably stop playing his games.
Unless it was like…a REALLY good game.
So Sonic 2, then.
More of a Sonic 3 & Knuckles guy myself.
THANK you!
I keep thinking I’m taking crazy pills when people say Sonic 2 is the best 2D Sonic. I always preferred S3&K, but that seems to be a minority opinion.
The only thing 2 has on Sonic 3 is I think the sprites look better in 2/CD than 3’s psuedo 3D look.
3K has the better levels, Better music, A good story, The better bonus stages (I have never gotten all the emeralds in 2), Elemental Sheilds and abilities, and the best finale. Just a masterpiece of a game.
I suggested 2 because it’s the last sonic game I played where I wanted to beat the game (I’m not big into platformers because I suck at jumping).
Other than racing each other, I didn’t care about 3 and never really played any game after that.
When’s the last time Sonic had a good game?
Sonic Mania which is almost six years old.
They’re all good, wym?
I see you never played Sonic ’06.
I’ve beaten it multiple times.
If our standards are just “good” then I’ll say Frontiers is “good.”
It ain’t “Great”.
Sonic Heroes type greatness…or my one of my closes friends….damn.
I feel like Carol might be gone of the few moms Mike, were he alive, would not have sex with.
Not for all the nickels in the world.
It was never about the sex (If I recall Mike was into dudes) – it was about the anguish the knowledge of his carnal conquest would causes those he cared about….. Are we 100% sure Mike didn’t deserve to die?
He’s married to Amber in shortpacked, and was dating Dina.
When he lost control and punched Dina, it was seen as her victory over him in their game of control when she was all but making him date her.
They may have been the most unhealthy couple in any universe.
He’s fucked his wife in at least one slipshine.
Mike is bi/pan so he did the ladies, too. Just not “on-screen”, as it were, in the DoA universe. In the Its Walky! universe he and Amber are married with a kid, after all.
Ahhh… Thanks.
That was an Ahh of sudden and welcome elucidation not annoyance. In case, that was unclear. I realized in retrospect that might have been confusing or hurtful. Thanks again for the info.
He’d do it, but he’d charge her. And it’d be a quarter.
Payment in advance.
And then he’d walk away, because “to fuck” has several different interpretations.
nah he would’ve seduced the youth pastor or so and reveal the hypocrisy on their homophobia or so
He’d do it purely for spite. But he’d be so embarrassed, he’d put a bag over his head.
Yeah, Mike can be an asshole who wasn’t terribly fun to be around a lot of the time but that doesn’t mean people didn’t want him alive! ESPECIALLY when the reason he died is because you assholes bailed out another asshole with the help of asshole supreme!
And yup, there it is about the house.
I’m curious where Carol will live after the divorce is finalized. I also wonder how much, if any, Hank has to pay Carol the conga each month for her to continue being an oxygen thief.
He won some points by Dying attempting to stop Said Asshole Supreme. That DOES count for something.
It’s intimated that he was the way he was at least in part because he discovered Blaine’s stuff years before and was trying to force Amber to deal with it. He just got kind of lost in the role to the point that the role became his personality.
I still am not completely “cool” with that. Death = Redemption is not my most favored trope ever.
I think he was kinda hoping he wouldn’t die but was willing to die to save his friends coz he realised how badly he’d messed up helping Amber…
I’m not sure the point is that he got points back… his being alive was an indicator life was better. Him being alive meant her best friends psycho dad didn’t participate in killing him/kidnapped them all… And if anything gave him points at this point in her journey it’s probably lying to her mom on the phone to save Becky and then Hail Sataning… probably finds that funny now.
Selling the house for the church to have a building is crazy because
1) A church is the people not the place
2) If a lack of building is a problem for the church you know what might solve that? A house that can fit a family of 9 plus a dog – it might not be a church but it sounds pretty big for a single weekly meeting.
I mean come on the early cults where just meeting in people’s houses and crypts, for Christ’s sake.
Family of 6 but your point stands.
i mean would’ve just cut out the middle man and have the house be the church but i imagine the money is more important to the pastors than the property itself
It’s a sense of luxury or lifestyle they don’t want to relinquish as a consequence for poor decision making. A church building holds more people, is a symbol of status, is likely required to qualify for certain tax exemptions, and functions held there very likely enrich the congregation. After all if you don’t have a church building you don’t need to collect donations you can skim off of to by your deacons fancy cars.
And you can’t expect their priest to sell off his own worldly possessions to fund his status symbol, how can he be a true religious leader if he’s facing consequences for his groups actions and not banking off of his followers?!
I got the strong impression that their church is more populated than would fit in a house. They’ve got a whole big congregation. Their Sunday school could well have a hundred students. It would be very hard to teach a full-sized Sunday school class in a room that’s the size of a child’s bedroom.
This church bought John a mustang skimming off tithes. It’s doing well and if it’s anywhere near the size where a huge building is needed I feel like fund raising should be a viable option. I don’t know how deep they dug for Ross’ bail but I feel like that was some time ago now and the community has had opportunity to refill some of their funds. I don’t know the details but I can’t imagine the property fees being more than a few thousand possible 10’s of thousands. That’s not impossible. Even if they have some significant debt from Ross’ bail or legal fees, it shouldn’t take Carol selling her house to keep the building a float. She’s potentially cashing out a half million if not more just briefly looking at the house they have (Based on California’s insane real estate prices, Indiana is likely much cheaper but still). Where is the money going?
Oh, the church is 1000% fucking Carol over.
From what we’ve seen and everything we’ve heard, Carol’s church wasn’t exactly a megachurch but also was not small.
I’m kind of curious how many members left the church over Ross’ bail. It was a big, touchy subject, and it must’ve caused some strife and rifts with more families than just Hank and Carol, right? Churches face major drama over much smaller conflicts. If a lot of families left over the bail decision they really might be having financial stress that church leadership wasn’t fully prepared for.
Now that is an interesting question.
I don’t know if John goes to the same church as Joyce anymore. He is in his 30s, possibly early 40s, so he might not be living there.
In some places, churches are considered businesses, not residential for property reasons.
So you can’t use a home for a church nor visa versa.
Not justifying this FTR.
WOW, You think you’re numb to Carol’s audacity and then she goes ahead and explicitly confirms that not only has she done no self-reflection vis a vie her actions leading to a mass kidnapping and multiple preventable deaths, she’s actively down to repeat those same actions all over again !!!
Ya know what they say about the definition of insanity…
How is she not in jail? Isn’t she an accessory before and after the fact? What about paying her legal fees?
the head of the church would probably be targeted first with every other member maybe having a civil lawsuit against them or so but becky’s dad might be considered the most responsible for his actions otherwise no one would ever risk paying anyone else’s bail ever
She’s not. Paying someone’s bail doesn’t make you an accessory.
Consider how badly that would play out in more normal bail cases. You lose the money anyway, but getting charged if you bail your kid out and he reoffends?
No, but they’re trying to make it so in Georgia WRT the protest about Cop City.
Never forget that, the night of the rescue, Carol’s reaction was to:
1. Imply all of atheism was out to murder Good Christians
2. Try to re-kidnap Joyce.
And that the last thing she said to Joyce before the kidnapping was essentially “this is for your own good”.
When did she do that?
The thing I really dont get is if she sells the house and just gives the money away, and she’s divorced from her husband, where is she going to….live??? Does she have a job? Probably not! What is her plan here exactly?
God will provide.
I’ve said it elsewhere above, but I’m calling it again: she’s going to try to move in with Joyce.
Into the dorm room like that pedophile who made the girls turn tricks for him.
… well, she _is_ a fundie. Not particularly out of character there.
If she does try to guilt Joyce into staying that would put her comment about the dorm looking smaller then she remembers in a different light. And here I thought she was actually admitting to Joyce that she had a point about having nowhere to put the boxes.
….. this shit keeps adding on.
Possible she’s just downsizing and giving the church the difference rather than donating the entire price.
He also threatened her with a gun, and abducted her with a homicidal maniac.
Anyways, door’s open, and there’s shouting. Chances of Carol being asked to leave by Joyce or Ruth or anyone are going up pretty quick I bet.
oh wow she wants to give her money to the church, I’ve never been less surprised in my life
Wait, Mike was only *mostly* alive? He was a revenant or something, like in “The Crow”?
Mike existed in a space between Stasis and Anti-stasis. He was, wasn’t and Never was all at once.
The Multiple Universe interpretation applies.
She mostly loved him being alive.
Joe’s really going on a face journey today, huh.
Not the face journey he expected.
Joyce loved that church before they were bigots to Becky. Then they enabled that traumatic armed kidnapping, and got Becky’s dad / their congregant murdered right in front of Joyce & pals, making Becky a homeless orphan, also Mike got killed, which spoiled a Halloween party. Priorities.
Yeah, “got our friend killed” is the least-complicated thing in the Reasons to Resent the Church there. Still not uncomplicated, but easiest thing to point to that no one can argue against being bad.
The sad part is that for Becky, “Homeless orphan” was a step up from “homeless because her dad tried to kidnap her and went to prison and the mortgage still needs paying” in a purely financial sense. (Emotionally… well.)
Well, before she realized they were bigots to Becky. They’d been bigots all along.
Good point.
The true bigotry was the bigots who bigotted along the way!
and here. we. go.
I wonder if Carol understand that, even if she goes through with this, it’s probably *just* going to be her putting herself anywhere near that out there.
I also wonder if this is because of people like Linda Walkerton seeking damages (rare Linda W, to be sure), or if Blaine’s “miracle” donation came back to bite them if he didn’t have the kind of pull to be giving that kind of money away for his petty bullshit, and the Korean mob want it back.
I sincerely hope it’s both.
IDK John might side with her, he also sucks.
I doubt it’s any of that. They posted bail likely convinced Ross was innocent and thinking they’d get the money back. Dude immediately teamed up with an insane mob stooge to kidnap minors. He likely missed his court date. No returned bail means church can’t pay whatever property fees they have and are thus screwed. No suing or mob extortion needed.
He did miss his court date coz he was dead. That’s a pretty compelling reason… And given that his primary co-conspirator “shot himself” and also was not tried in a court of law, and presumably the dudebros wouldn’t have necessarily known which of the evil dads was primarily behind the plan, he hasn’t been found guilty for ANY of his actions by a court of law. So presumably the money is going towards Linda’s lawsuit (think for civil matters the burden of proof is slightly lower than for criminal? So the fact that they gave the money to Blaine to bail out Toedad, and the paper trail, Dudebros and victims have consistently testified that the evil dads rented the house, recruited the Dudebros, kidnapped the kids, etc, and their plan was to lure both Becky and Amazigirl there, and that definitely violated bail conditions (as well as being criminal activity while on bail) and the fight with Amazigirl led to Mike’s death, means that they have a civil culpability for Toedad’s actions and an argument can be made that they helped fund Blaine’s part in them too?
But not sure if they’d get the bail itself back or not? 🤷🏻♀️
I have missed some closing brackets 🤦🏻♀️
Pretty sure that’s all enough to keep the bail from being returned.
I’d be kind of surprised if the church itself put money into the bail rather than just informally organizing a campaign to raise money for that purpose..
Pretty sure “bailee was murdered before his court date” would be considered an “act of God” and not a violation of the terms of the surety bond.
Murdered during the commission of a felony may change matters though.
Hmmm… what DOES happen to bail money in the case of someone who is killed while committing a crime when out on bail?
You’re right that they still haven’t been found “guilty” in a court of law, and if a suspect dies of natural causes the bail money would be returned. But toedad was most definitely violating the terms of his bail at the time, so if he was caught just a few hours earlier the bail money would be gone.
Do the terms of the bond typically include subsequent offenses not involved in the pending hearing? Sounds weird.
I suspect any release on bond includes a demand from the judge not to do anything illegal as a matter of course.
Not that it makes anything he did better but none of the characters kidnapped were minors.
They were all under 21 or is 18 the cutoff? I get those confused sometimes for legal drinking age. Under 21 is a minor to me.
You’re legally an adult when you hit 18, you just can’t drink, smoke, or use marijuana even in a legal state unless you have a medical card.
Well, I called that one. On the other hand, a blind man in a dark cellar at midnight during a power failure could’ve seen that one coming.
How about you just use a damn tent.
a tent in the middle of some forested area would make an interesting epic cult horror story/game lol
It’s a rough row to hoe, but Project Zomboid allowes you to do just that in the middle of a Zombie apocalypse.
Joe needs to start preparing his best and warmest hugs.
well, he was more amber and ethan’s friend but i guess being downgraded to ‘classmate’ would kinda lessen teh impact
also didn’t they run out of some kinda auditorium? wouldn’t think they’d need a ‘nice building’ to hold sermons other than just wanting the money
I seemed to remember the auditorium was something the church rented for home schooled kids to do some type of gym class.
Fingers crossed this ends with Joyce Cutting contact with her Mother.
That’ll probably be for the best at this point, but that doesn’t mean that doing so won’t cause Joyce a lot of pain.
Sometimes, every option kinda sucks.
unfortunately that doesn’t stop some ppl but maybe sarah can use her law school studies or even ask carla to help out set up a formal restraining order
I think I speak for everyone when I say:
“um, excuse me, THE FUCK??!!”
well, god has asked ppl to murder their own children apparently
that said, makes me wonder if the church would’ve asked for a huge donation at some point after a while since htey cna’t be taxed for it
I’ve got 99 questions and they’re all variations on “what the fuck?”.
Joe just making faces in the background, awk
What a psychopath
isn’t psychopath more violent than sociopath? tho there’s def something wrong with her logic but more so from brainwashing
The terms are at least somewhat interchangeable. Neither is inherently violent. They simply lack empathy and remorse, and often suffer from poor impulse control.
Can we leave the mentally ill out of this pls thanx
Me when I’m a politician writing healthcare legislature
I kind of feel like Carol’s being used here. Like this sounds insane to me. I don’t care how much you love the church selling your home feels really irrational. Is the church gonna keep Carol off the street? I don’t understand her reasoning. If the church actually cares about it’s community they could operate inside Carol’s house or anywhere honestly. It’s the people that matter, not the property.
yep it’d def raise alarm bells. religion blinds ppl. and sometimes love, i’ve heard of some fiancees getting into debt on their lovers behalf and all
To be fair, everyone in the church is being used. I don’t really think Carol’s in any position for sympathy.
If Carol does indeed intend to stay in Joyce’s dorm as theorized I want both Joyce and Joe to tell her to go back to the congregation, if the church really loves its community so much then let the community take you in.
Staying in Joyce’s dorm is just not an option. I’d find it odd if she even suggests it. Joyce wouldn’t even have to confront her over it, just drop a word to Ruth and she’d either be removed physically or the higher ups on the campus would step in.
And it can’t really be hidden like Becky was. Another college age kid hanging around isn’t remarkable. A parent sticks out like a sore thumb.
It would definatly be an unreasonable an unattainable expectation but Carol isn’t exactly the reasonable type and I could 100% see her saying something along the lines of ” if you found room for Becky then you can find room for your own mother!”
I think it’s more likely she’s already moving in with another congregant, and is just here for mind games.
I wonder if she’s actually told anyone at the church yet. It could be a surprise yet to come. Standing up during the offering with the check in hand, declaring that she’s here today to Save the Church and spilling her story, somehow sounds like her style.
Like she’s preparing a suprise testmonial in some sunday service, right?
I believe it’s totally the opposite, the church is pressing Carol, because the Ross thing were tots her idea.
But your theory is very plausible. Can’t wait until the end of storyline.
I’d say that if she wasn’t one of the ringleaders in getting Toedad bailed out with church funds.
Honestly, I wonder if that’s what’s motivating this, guilt over at least some of what’s happened as a result, and she’s going for big gestures to try to absolve herself.
Guilt and seeking absolution, but no concern whatsoever for any of the actual victims, including her daughter?
Yup.
Never said Carol wasn’t a fucked up asshole. Fucked up assholes tend to have reasons for their actions beyond “I’m a fucked up asshole”, though.
Why is the building so important? You can have churches in strip malls these days.
There’s a church in my town that moved into a former Buffalo Wild Wings, and another that used to be a Hy-Vee.
maybe it’s ‘updated’ since then but i remember joyce getting defense at one point liek “my church is a /real/ church, it was just um, also an auditorium” so it could just be the pastor asking for more than they need to make up for the fees and such
The actual reason doesn’t matter. God told Carol to do it.
I think “and such” is doing the heavy lifting in that sentence.
It’s entirely possible they use the building for more than just prayer and worship. They might host AA meetings, or run a soup kitchen or food pantry, or a clothing bank. As little as I agree with their beliefs, they do sometimes provide some legit services for the community. Based on the description we’ve heard, the pastor and the congregants are probably sincere in their beliefs, however nutty. Scammers tend to go for something fancier.
They were okay with shooting up a school, and it’s heavily implied they knew full well of the kidnapping plan.
These are not good people.
I don’t think that’s implied at all – at least nothing about Blaine’s plan.
Ross going to get his daughter possibly.
Beyond that though, neither of those things means they don’t do traditional church service activities – like soup kitchens or clothing banks or whatever. People are complicated and can do acts of charity on one hand and gross discrimination with the other.
Carol’s lines of “I didn’t think he’d actually do it” and “no matter what happens, I love you” (the last ones paraphrased, of course) to both instances of violence imply otherwise.
They don’t strike me as the kind of people that care about the poor.
How was John able to buy that new car of his?
Maybe it isn’t only because of building, but mainly because of christians losing field against who ever are taking their children, their faith from them.
What are they going to pay rent with, for a new location?
And when they change locations, they’ll lose some congregants. If they have a sound system installed, does that come with them?
They could move into one of the other 40 churches that are gonna be visible from the front door. It’s not like they have a shortage of options, here.
Even though I know it would probably be piling too many elements into the scene I kinda hope Amber is passing by in the hall just in time to hear this getting shouted, her reaction to Joyce even needing to argue that with someone would be an interesting oil to toss on this fire. (And she’d be more likely than Joyce or Joe to snap and punch Carol square in the kisser over any BS about his death being part of god’s plan to give her a chance to save their church.)
Church wouldn’t have needed saving if they didn’t hire the assassin who killed him.
Carol not even fucking blinking at the mention of Mike dying.
Next strip is gonna be FUN.
Whoops
Oh no
Where’d my generational wealth go?
Hank’s got it. Assuming he kept the dentist practice.
But without the house… where will she go, what will she do?
Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.
I need Carla to bring a contraption to ban Carol into the shadow realm before she gets to do more harm
Yes Carol, keep digging that hole, you are very close to your destination….hell!
I know these things happens a lot in rl,
I only hope that she actually can’t legally sell the house and she is on a idiot trip.
Oh this this this
Considering Pat Robinson’s death, this is nearly the perfect comic.
Also, Joe, be good. Be good, Joe!
Carol is sort of cringe.
I’ve been reading the older strips that I’ve never read before, and it’s fucking unbelievable just how far Joyce has come.
That’s like saying the Ocean is a bit damp.
You’re really just gonna shrug over her friend’s death, huh?
I can see why Joyce needed Joe
It’s a stark contrast to her going “the atheists WANTED Ross dead!”, isn’t it?
I can’t find her saying that. I do recall her saying that people who were against Ross’s “mission” “won.” but as far as I know, Walky’s family, the ones who were doing the callout and provoked that response from her, aren’t atheists, nor did she accuse them of being such.
She literally said “it’s the transgenders that did this to you”, complained about being persecuted for wanting to “raise our kids right”, as well as compared atheists to Nazis. I think that it’s safe to assume to Carol has a boner for everyone being evil. In the event in question, she said “you people”.
And she didn’t even know Mike.
Yeah, beast wars, but the title of this strip should have been “Mostly”. Unless it’s reserved for DoA Book 13: Mostly!
Ahhh, so now the truth behind the action comes out.
And the ads just keep getting weirder. Today I’m seeing ads for Narcan and carwashes, instead of the usual nutritional supplements and women’s underwear.
I think it’s you– I’m getting Infiniti and Pantene. (I’m guessing because I bought some Ann Taylor clothing recently…)
Haha, at work it’s adobe acrobat pro and they think I should get a master of legal studies.
Those ads are so weird.
“Here’s something you definitely don’t need more of right now, so all we’re actually doing is giving you a reason to avoid our creepy-ass company that you were already buying from!”
How are marketing people so bad at their jobs?
I turned off Google adsense and it is indeed a wild world.
Carol doesn’t look angry or even righteous here she seems kind of… desperate. She’s fully lost in the sauce and really does believe god spoke to her.
She is Abraham and Joyce is Issac I guess. It’s kind of terrifying.
If this strip truly is autobiographical, I’m not only horrified but feel truly sorry for DW.
I can only imagine how hard it must have been to draw this.
Agreed. I feel queasy just reading it. So awful.
And I get how there are spots where she seems so nice in between the craziness and blatant disregard for her children. That’s incredibly realistic with a lot of these fundamentalists. She’s tragic on top of being awful. I don’t know how I would unpack it all.
Minus the kidnapping, yep, this part is.
that woman needs to be confronted by the consequences of her actions.
How long until Ethan gets a chance to suplex her? For Mike?
imagine owning a house in 2023 and selling it for a church whose building is just a fuckin old ass school
Joyce is two or three strips away from the moment when she tells her mother to get out of her life, and stay out.
Okay I’ve actually done some research on this now cause it was bothering me. First things first. They actually got Ross out on bond. Bond money does not get returned because you’re essentially paying another entity to post bail by paying a percentage of that bail to the bondsmen plus interest. It’s how they make money.
Second. Ross’ bail was set at some “ridiculously high price” for a guy whose only crime was terrorizing a college campus with a loaded gun, firing that gun multiple times at people with intent to kill, and participating in a high speed escape attempt. I mean isn’t this America?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/03-sometimes-the-sky-was-so-far-away/bond/
To me “ridiculously high” means enough where even bond was probably in the tens if not hundreds of thousands. Enough where the church was definitely putting themselves out there and they seemed very desperate.
Thirdly the Brown home looks like a decently sized 1 story house.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/squeezing-2/
Just googling it rates range between around 300 thousand to over half a million. We’ll say maybe Carol would get 250k if she likely accepts any reasonable offer just for the payout.
Still think Carol’s getting scammed though. Something fishy is up with that church if one divorced old lady feels she needs to sell her house to save the building.
Linda is also probably suing the church and presumably the church thus has legal costs.
I’m sure someone’s going to tell me the church wasn’t doing anything illegal by paying someone’s bond but it’s not like that means Linda’s case doesn’t have some other basis that wouldn’t be thrown out prima facie.
That said, they could totally be scamming Carol. It wouldn’t exactly be an unknown case for someone to get scammed by their church.
No, we’re talking $1M+ for that kind of thing. Flight risk, highly dangerous.
Bond is a percentage of bail. For even the bond to be a million bucks Ross’ bail would have to be multiple millions of dollars. Any judge deciding to set bail that high is better off denying it. Carol selling her house wouldn’t even begin to cover that.
Yeah, but he fucked off and missed his court date, so they’re on the hook for the full bail.
I have to wonder if the bondsman has any claim against the church, since they may have misrepresented Ross’s intentions when they covered the bond. If so, it could be the bondsman suing the church for the balance of the bail.
I’m not a lawyer, but I think it’s actually worse than you know. Let’s say bail was set at $100k, so the church paid a bondsman $10k, who then paid the bail to get Toedad out. He makes his court dates, is convicted, and the bondsman get the $100k back, keeping $10k as profits.
Only Toedad didn’t make his court appearance. Which means by my understanding that the church, as co-signer on the bond, now owes the bondsman the full $90k balance.
The church shouldn’t have had some weirdo out of nowhere pick him up from the jail.
But he didn’t make the appearance coz he was dead. Dead coz he died during the course of committing more crimes while on bail, yes, but he was not arrested, tried and convicted for those so that may be a technicality?
Church should never have allowed itself to be the legal entity contracting with the bondsman.
How does that work normally? Do you need to get a 3rd party to contract with the bondsman? Or can you pay him yourself? Even if you borrow from friends to get the money to do so?
We need more details, cause depending on the kind of bond they got they’re responsible for the percentage, the full bail, or even forfeiture of the church property as collateral. Although honestly instead of Carol selling her house they need to hire a lawyer. Situations like this happen all the time.
we know it’s enough to cause them problems, which is really the point
Aaand, I should have kept on reading.
This.
Do take into account the mentality of the old lady. Carol deciding she needs to her sell her house does not mean it’s an actual justifiable ‘old lady needs to sell her house’ situation.
I have to admit, I was initially confused…
Joyce mentioned “our friend” being dead. I forgot that Mike had died, and thought Joyce was referring to Toedad as the “dead friend” (which would have been a weird day to refer to him given the circumstances.)
it was a loooong time ago.
Ruth please suplex Carol again please please please please please please please please
like fr I feel like the dorm/students have a right to kick her ass out because of her direct association with the death of another student there. then again my own alma mater wasn’t exactly fair with who they decided to trespass so maybe I’m just being idealistic.
Well, at least she pretty much admitted God didn’t tell her anything in a dream, but she decided to do it because she wants to ruin herself (and incidentally Joyce too) to save her church. Which is still madness, but at least without weird visions. Is sad to see a person like this. Desperate and determined to do a very stupid thing.
I don’t think she wants to “ruin” herself or Joyce. The church is in financial trouble, so of course she had a dream where God tells her to sell her house. But, being the fundie she is, she decides it’s a “vision” and that she needs to do it. How it would affect Joyce or anyone else was never something she considered.
Jesus, he knows me and he knows I’m right
I’ve been talking to Jesus all my life
Oh yes, he knows me and he knows I’m right
Well, he’s been telling me everything’s gonna be alright
Weird conundrum. If we put aside that this is a church of crimes, but imagine it’s the community’s sole form of school, government and communal meeting place; the last light of justice and reason in a dark age. How can it be possible you need to sell your home to give them money? Did they spend the “entire treasury” on getting this one guy out of jail as a token gesture of support, or maybe hoping he’d just run away to escape trial? For such a supposed vital institution, that’s such shockingly bad finance. Unless they’re maybe just really corrupt and uses all the money the community throws at them to buy themselves luxuries or something, but I mean, something doesn’t add up and that’s the kind of thing you should probably be suspicious about before you bet the farm on them.
Well, keep in mind that Joyce’s brother (John) drives a sports car given to him by the church and is currently doing “missionary work” in India (probably also funded by the church). I can’t remember if the church in question is Joyce’s or if he goes to another, but it might be a sign that Joyce’s church is wasteful with their money.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/trendy/
The church probably doesn’t have a deep savings account. They probably spend almost as much as they get in. If they get a little more money, well, the roof does need some work. Leaving the mop bucket in the middle of one of the Sunday school rooms on rainy days is inconvenient. Never mind the damage that can’t be seen. Or, maybe it’s time to replace that old air-conditioner. It’s only barely able to get the temperature down to the mid-80’s on a hot day, and the electric bills are starting to show just how inefficient it is. Or even, hey, we have enough to sponsor a youth group trip, and cover half the expenses for everyone who wants to go this year. There’s always something breaking, and always something that needs money. Sometimes, these expenses can be deferred, for a time. Often at the cost of a bigger payment later, such as having to fix the roof, repair/replace the ceiling, AND deal with the mold and rot in the roof from letting the roof leak for so long.
I find it very credible that the church was operating at the limits of its means. A big stress, such as being forced to pay back a bondsman, or defend themselves from a lawsuit, or possibly a sustained lawfare assault by the Walkertons, or even cover for lost tithes, as some of their parishioners got fed up with the rest, and the direction the church as going, and fled to other churches, could easily threaten to force it under.
The church gave John a free Mustang. If it WAS operating at the limits of its means, it was only because it kept having its agents living very large. It’s a scaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmm.
I didn’t get that John was a missionary from THEIR congregation, and the comics that have him linked don’t lead me to that conclusion, either.
Quite the opposite. His wife couldn’t make the “day trip”. That implies that, even when he’s in the states, he’s far enough away that dropping by his parent’s house takes enough time to be inconvenient. Probably an hour or so distant, would be my guess.|
Not that you’re wrong. A church that doesn’t have the oversight to prevent its clergy from voting itself all the pay raises is in a bad place. But that’s not necessarily Joyce’s old church.
This. I am having a really hard time believing that the elders would sign off on such an irregular expenditure. Churches just do not have tens of thousands of dollars lying around unused; it’s all committed. When an unexpected expense comes along, it’s time to pass the plate for a special offering, ‘cos there’s no money to cover it.
Being in jail or being out on bail effects a person’s life, a lot. Like they can work if they’re out on bail, and meet with a lawyer freely. It’s not just a token gesture of support. It’s actual support. Just in this case really poor judgement.
Being bad at finance is pretty plausible for a church.
I’m sure it’s been discussed already but I’ve only just now realized the Chapter Title is a reference to Cheap Trick’s Surrender:
“Your mommy’s alright,
Your Daddy’s alright,
They just seem a little weeiiiird.
Surrender,
Surrender,
But don’t give yourself awaaaaay”
A lot of comments assuming that 100% of the sale of the house is going to the church, but it seems far more likely that she’s selling it to buy a cheaper house and donating the difference.
Then again, it’s been made clear that she’s lost the plot more than a little, so who knows…
Don’t forget the tax on the appreciation in value.
Get her ass, Joyce.
…. and then i sold the house, gave the money to church, and left my children to face the housing crisis all alone.
Great.
Wow wow wait. The church spent that much on Blaine and Toedad? That’s. Wow. I don’t even know how to respond to that.
Linda likely sued the church as well for their involvement in the kidnapping and murder. She literally said she was gonna “sue them off the map”.
They didn’t spend anything on Blaine, he died before he even went to jail, Blaine contributed to Toedad’s bail even.
But because they posted Toedad’s bail, the Church was likely sued and held liable, and the money they put up for bail was likely forfeit as a result of him committing a second crime too. These two things likely drained any money the church did have.
It’s frankly bizarre if they are liable for his crimes just because they posted bail. It would be frankly saner to have the judge be liable for allowing him to go out on bail – but once the judge decides that they can be release if he pays bail, how the fuck does paying that bail make someone guiltt of anything? It’s the judges that decided that’s how bail works.
For a bail bond, the bondsman gets paid a fee like 10-15%, that they keep, and also hold something as collateral (jewelry, lien, etc), that they return the collateral. If the defendant violates the conditions of their bail, they do not get the collateral back from the bondsman.
If a third party decides to pay someone’s bail, they say they’re confident the defendant won’t violate the conditions of their pre-trial release, and will forfeit the money/property if they do.
Putting someone on remand is intended to make sure of two things: they will not flee and they will not commit further crimes.
Posting bail for someone is basically a promise that you will ensure they do not miss their court dates, commit further crimes or break any additional conditions of the bail. If they commit further crimes, they will usually be put on remand and your bail money will be forfeit.
That’s why you shouldn’t go around posting bail for people you do not trust extremely well, especially if it is a high amount you can’t really afford to spend, it’s not just a monetary inconvenience, it is taking on the duty of the jail/prison. And money you have used, will be forfeit if this person decides to flee or commit more crimes.
In this case as well, the church knew Ross was violent, knew he would likely commit further violence, and did nothing to stop him. So they would be liable in civil court most likely for negligence as they created the risk by posting his bail and doing nothing to stop him, knowing he would likely try to kidnap his daughter again.
The judge only decides on how much bail costs and if there are additional conditions, but this is built on past precedent, it doesn’t mean ‘this person is perfectly safe’. It means they will only be trusted with some degree of freedom, if someone will vouch for them with money as collateral. Because people care a lot about their money, and will do a lot to prevent losing it, therefore it should keep most people in check or make their loved ones keep a close eye on them.
If you had no way of reasonably knowing, you wouldn’t be held liable. But Joyce’s church not only KNEW what kind of actions Ross would likely take, they agreed with them, and gave him the freedom to act on them on purpose.
wow, not only did she sell her house, but she sold it for the worst, most asinine reason possible, I hope the bongo ends up on the streets, and her precious church won’t help her.
To get her friend, her friend’s dad, and her friend’s dad (who was kinda your friend too) killed.
All in all, money well spent. Like the US defence budget.
. . .
(oh god, it *is* like the US defence budget!)
Taking time to consider all of this, it still seems like a shitty thing to do to your family. If you can’t be talked out of it then you should at least let them go through the house one more time, preferably before taking everything out and leaving.
Joe is definitely being a good boyfriend there with the added facial expression commentary
Yesterdy, I commented that “Joyce is two or three strips away from the moment when she tells her mother to get out of her life, and stay out.”
Tomorrow’s strip, or the day after.
Arrgh, this was supposed to have been on tomorrow’s strip. Went back to copy-paste my comment, and forgot to go back to the latest strip.
Me am dumb today.
Why was your church failing when your mother sold your family home Mr. Willis?
I’d be interested to hear this as well
Get a court to declare her non compos mentis, get a power of attorney over the estate
Well this is actually worse… but better for Joyce to know early even if Carol still goes through this :S