If you think not having the objectively best answer to literally every conceivable question, can ever be something that is okay, you’ve never been sick in quite the way Dorothy is.
Yeah. I mean it is her choice, but its seems to me like she is trying to convince herself she takes certain actions out of pure altruism rather than fear of what could happen if she is a less than perfect friend (read: servant).
…OK, upon a quick search I see I’ve been misled as to the meaning of “cherchez la femme”. I always thought it meant, “When you see a successful person, ‘look for the woman’ behind them — look for the support person or people in that person’s life, who made that person’s success possible.”
Yeah, it means “chase the women” as in “womanizer”.
I learned that as a kid from reading the introduction to a Pogo collection. (Pogo Possum’s turtle friend is named Churchy Lafemme.)
The original use of the saying is in a Dumas book where it’s in the context of finding the motive for the actions of a man. The sentence is uttered by someone who is convinced said actions are part of a scheme to impress a woman, so finding her would allow to unravel the whole plot. “Seek the woman!”
It’s not about chasing. This would be courez la femme instead, cf. “coureur de jupon” (skirt chaser).
The “seek the supportive person who made this man’s success possible” sounds like a feminist reclaiming of the expression, and I think I like this re-interpretation. It’s clever and very often accurate.
Yeah, i associate that with 50’s noir private eye types, being all like “sex is the ultimate motive to every crime”.
I’d say that’s a saying that’s ripe for reclaiming. @Laura Your interpretation is a lot better and I support it =)
Also, here’s a thought. I see and appreciate the effort you make towards gender-neutral language, like “support person”.. But isn’t this one of those situations where it *is* still overwhelmingly women who support successful men, without being credited for their critical role in that success? I feel like this may be one of those cases where gender-neutral language just… kind of misses the point?? I mean, it was your point to make but hm. Yeah. It’s just a thought, i’m not especially confident about my opinion on this
Yes, that’s what I meant — behind successful men are supportive women. “Cherchez la femme”. Look for the women waiting in the wings, the backstage crew. Look for the ones who area actually getting s*** done, not just taking the credit.
But that IS changing, bit by bit. There are supportive folks of all genders, and “successful” (public-facing) folks of all genders. So I figured I’d make a step toward the future and broaden the idiom.
Strangely, I also learned the phrase from reading “Pogo” as a child. (“The Kluck Klams” still brings me to tears. I’ve performed it a couple of times as a storyteller, but I don’t know how to do it respectfully enough when the subject matter is so sensitive and fraught with opportunities to cause inadvertent offense.)
It was my Dad who said that, “cherchez la femme”, meant, “Behind every successful man is a strong woman. Look for the women behind the scenes.”
Perhaps he just wanted to give me hope, when I was a child. That phrase (what I thought it meant) has been one of the guiding principles of my life. I’ve always thought my greatest achievement in life was supporting other people to achieve their own goals.
Supporting people to achieve their own goals is indeed a great accomplishment. Just, there are a ton of highly supportive women who realize (usually around menopause) that they’ve supported others like bosses, but have never identified or chased their own goals, and it makes them feel really sad and angry.
I want to check in and remind you to identify your goals, too.
Your own desires are also completely worthy of attention, support, and getting achieved. <3
(And ofc that also goes for any gender of person, that your goals are worthy. I made it gendered because this pattern has been observed very frequently in women, historically, so that it’s a Thing, where people raised as women should be especially cognizant of a cultural designation as Support Person. There! Gender has been solved.)
phew thanks Leorale, that was an annoying problem =D
yeah, it’s very much a Thing. so i guess my point was, isn’t it… a bit soon?? to be including all genders when talking about the invisible burden still mostly shouldered by women, mostly for the benefit of men, mostly with very little recognition, unlike the rare stay-at-home dad?
Lately i’ve been noticing a trend, and i have zero data or independent confirmation so far other than my own hunch, being that single dads seem super common in fiction? i feel like they are overrepresented on screen compared to the numbers in society, where obviously stay-at-home/single moms are way more common.
and many of these depictions are sympathetic; they tend to be devoted, though somewhat exhausted and clueless at times. (and yet the dad is so often the one to deliver the wise monologue of reconciliation with their kid at the end of coming-of-age stories.) A man changing nappies or playing with kids seems to attract a surplus of sympathy, and will often be portrayed as an unsung hero in other characters’ lives; whereas a woman being there for her kids and/or partner is more often framed as just doing unremarkable routine stuff, and her domestic work is rarely emphasized as praiseworthy.
To put it succinctly it feels like a stay-at-home dad is comedy, a stay-at-home mom social drama. you know?
i’m still very much unsure of what i’m trying to get at here, and also i’m a cis-ish straight-ish guy, so… grain of salt.
also, this may be a very white perspective, i feel like hip hop at least tends to acknowledge and praise the labour of motherhood. there may be other issues there to discuss, but i’m not equipped for that.
Thank you, Leorale. That means a lot to me, and I appreciate it very much. I really do.
I appreciate YOU.
…Having now reached the end of my childbearing years, you captured exactly how I feel.
And yet I’m still proud of the people I’ve managed to help, and still haunted by the ones I haven’t. :~)
Regardless of Gender, there needs to be a Frontline Pointperson and a Rear Guard Support Person. This makes me remember the dynamic from the Outlaw Star Anime. Jean Starwind was the Pointman, and Jim Hawking was the Backup.
One could also see the Outlaw Star Crew as a Raid Party. Melfina is the Healer. Jean Starwind is the Tank. Jim Hawking is the Operator. Twilight Suzuka and Aisha Clan-Clan are the DPS.
She’s SO gay, but she doesn’t want to face a part of herself that isn’t “presidential”, so she shuffled words around to make this look like grist for her mill. 😑
I’m not sure if its the greatest episode of all time but is defiantly one of, if not, the best episodes of ds9 (which in my opinion is the best Trek Series).
Also, do you know why it is called “In the Pale Moonlight?” I assume its a reference to another work, for I don’t recall a single moon appearing in the episode.
It’s a reference to, of all things, a line from Jack Nicholson portraying the Joker in the 1989 Batman movie, where he’d ask his victims “Hey, you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?”
“And all it cost was the life of one criminal…the life of one Romulan senator…and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. Now I don’t know about YOU…but I’d call that a bargain.”
That is such a beautiful song. Joan Baez is a national treasure.
And yes, the lyrics fit that episode perfectly.
Make your choices: choose sin. Choose lawlessness. Roll the dice. Pay your money, take your choice. Accept your actions.
Yes. That sums it up perfectly. Though, ironically what I kind of liked about ds9 was that it took characters from the very white hat Federation and forced them into a region of space were events and issues were often very grey and what was right and what was perhaps necessary did not always align and could not always be made to – and yet the crew never stops trying to do the right thing. I think some of the best episodes of Star Trek are those that explore complex moral issues and don’t always come away with a clear answer.
Deep Space Nine is applying pressure to the utopian conceit of the Federation and asking what breaks, and that makes for a pretty compelling show but it does undercut a lot of the hopeful optimism.
I think that’s why they wrote Voyager, to carry on the “stop at a planet and have an adventure” formula. Equinox shows what could have happened to the crew if they abandoned the Federation’s principles with the singular goal of getting home ASAP.
This is actually really key to the magic of DS9, I think: the Federation is still good, it’s very white-hat, as you said, but things don’t always work out for the best, even with everyone trying their best. Yet they don’t *stop* trying.
This is also what I’ve ended up feeling is missing from some newer outings, and why I get irritated at what I feel are repeated stabs at “what if the Federation was BAD ACTUALLY?”
DS9 reminds us that the utopia created in Trek is not a “one-and-done” system, that it needs to be maintained, and it’s still incredibly easy for humans to go back into dark places if they don’t hold themselves accountable.
*Googles “but it’s just the price I pag destiny is calling me” alt-text*
*Googles “Turning Saints into the sea” chapter title*
*Discovers both are from Mr Brightside by The Killers*
Is…. this where it comes together? I’, not sure I get it, and Daniel the Human is too tired to help out…
Mr. Brightside is a song about a man who believes he is being cheated on by his lover. It’s a song about jealousy of a perceived intruder on your relationship.
I guess Dorothy is Mr. Brightside in this story, which is an interesting parallel to draw.
The woman is not his lover, she’s a sexworker iirc? (it’s subtle but thats always how I saw the music video) So in reality he’s getting jealous over a projected/assumed relationship.
Don’t think that’s the angle Willis was aiming for here though.
I definitely think they’re meant to be a couple in the video, she’s a burlesque performer and he’s in the band, and he’s paranoid about his girlfriend working in a business where she has to perform sexuality with other men, and it ultimately destroys the relationship.
I’ll admit my understanding of Mr. Brightside is heavily influenced by it’s follow up / companion piece Miss Atomic Bomb which was them revisiting the same story and characters, and at least in that video, it really is all in his head.
It feels a little different to me. Dorothy kind of invented the problem that she solved. Joyce’s sexual development isn’t really Dotty’s business, as well meaning as this whole thing was.
Dorothy’s going to need to come to terms with the fact that even if she wants to she can’t be Joyce’s life manager. it’s setting herself up for stress and underlining resentment when her efforts don’t get thanked and setting Joyce up for learned helplessness because she’s continuing to let somebody else make the hard decisions for her.
She’s certainly adding to the issue by unilaterally deciding to replace the authority figure Joyce just kicked out of her life, without apparently seeing that Joyce is still NOT fixed of her “Lead me leader” programming.
Joyce’s upbringing is definitely a factor. But Dorothy is “trying to help” because she doesn’t trust Joyce to be an adult and make good relationship choices on her own, specifically about Joe, which we have seen ourselves that she is perfectly capable of making.
Fair, but Joyce is *allowed* to make mistakes. Its a part of how we learn and grow. And anyway, Dorothy clearly can’t stop her from making these sorts of choices by teaching her to JO—All she’s done here is draw a line that Joyce will inevitably cross and piss her off.
When I talk about power structure and unhealthy dynamic, this is what I’m trying to describe: “I’ve taught you to JO, so you won’t make any mistakes.” What she really means is “what *I* perceive to be mistakes.”
Power structures can be erected in many ways: experience, trust, culture to name a few. As soon as someone holds those things over your head, it becomes an unhealthy dynamic. Joyce implicitly trusts Dorothy, her sexually experienced atheist friend. And here Dorothy is drawing a line in the sand: don’t fuck Joe, I showed you how to deal with those feelings so do it my way instead.
Yeah I get you think that, but I just fundamentally disagree on almost all of it.
Yes, Dorothy is screwing up here. Partly due to her own stresses, which I suspect we’re going to dig deeper into eventually. Maybe mostly because of her misreading of Joe or not being aware of his changes.
I don’t read her as drawing lines in the sand or at least that not being the point of the JO lesson. She’s hoping Joyce will have clarity and realize she’s making a bad decision, but that’s not the same. She’d be upset if she continued, but that would have been true before this as well.
I just can’t read this as her holding anything over Joyce’s head. Or being able to, given how ready Joyce has been to push back in the past.
I don’t buy the power dynamic here being the problem. If it’s a problem at this scale, it’s always a problem between any two people who aren’t perfectly balanced.
Let me just say this before signing off though: the last thing you just said is actually very true and causes a lot of problems between friends, family members, coworkers etc.
It’s a Becky quote (as noted below), but you do bring up a good point…
**one Amazon search later**
Ah. The new Empowered book will finally be released this August. Only four years after the previous one.
“squirting” aside, other than needing to lie down and rest a few mins i feel like having to pee is a sensation you’d get pretty soon afterwads as well anyways lol
In spite of everything, I do still (generally) like Dorothy and wish her well, but yeah, I’d say she had a breakdown coming if it didn’t feel like she was already in the midst of one.
I’m mostly joking, QC isn’t actually writing out the old cast or location, but two major characters did just move to a new location in a way which would usually mean writing them out but instead the story has shifted focus a bit
seems like that would be a spinoff, but i wonder how many sitcoms/stories have taken place within an ‘ivy league’ school, since the charas that are like “oh i went to yale/harvard/etc” even as comedy relief can be annoying at times
Clif
Won’t everyone be surprised when Dorothy finds out that Joyce was also accepted at Yale.
Needfuldoer
DoA season 3 sees the whole cast relocate to Yale, for increasingly outlandish and reach-y reasons.
Khyrin
• Dorothy: Duh.
• Joyce: Applied for funsies. Qualifies for an obscure grant that gives her a full ride.
• Becksters: Largesse from a Liberal Senator.
• Dina: recommended for a fellowship with an archeolgy/paleontology dig in Connecticut.
• Walky and Sal: Cut the cord with momsie and popsicle; Sal is following Marcy, Walky is following Sal. Walky has a minor freakout when he realizes he’s the one maintaining the house while Sal keeps food on the table.
• Marcy: Moves to Connecticut to get out of the Midwest; gets job at a Private Security Firm alongside Sal.
• Malaya: Moves to be near Marcy; parents secretly own the Private Security Firm that hires Marcy and Sal.
• Lucy: accidentally smuggled in Dina’s luggage.
• Joe and Amber: Attend Southern Connecticut State University. Relocation at Richard’s insistence to keep them safe from Yuri’s revenge plot.
• Stacy and Richard: Relocate to Mechanicsville, Iowa.
• Faz: Sues for emancipation; shows up on Joyce’s front step.
milu
Season 4:
• Leslie is hired at Yale after writing a massively successful book on queer readings of pop culture classics.
• Robin, who loves a running gag, pulls all the strings she’s got and gets transferred to Yale just to surprise Leslie in the (considerably more wood-panelled) teacher’s lounge there. (she really did it just for the lulz, fo’shizzle!!)
• Carla has finally joined the roller derby team, and swiftly become something of a sensation and Yale has a really good roller derby team maybe?? and they scout her?! and she’s like “sure why not”.
• Ruth has dropped out of IU, she got into equine-assisted therapy as part of a rehab programme and decided to pursue that as a career and by pure sheer nonsense coincidence she finds an apprenticeship in New Haven, CT. She and Daisy are basically engaged by now so they move together.
• BillieJenniferJennyJay Xworth takes a backpacking sabbatical and becomes increasingly politically radical and winds up in Yale as a cleaners’ strike breaks out and decides to stick around and help out.
• Booster just respawns as a Yale student. No one seems surprised and no explanation is ever given.
Octo
• Sarah: Begrudgingly talked into transferring by Joyce. Joyce actually made some good points about how it would benefit Sarah, who now claims those are the ONLY reasons, nothing to do with other people
• Galasso: Opens a second location in New Haven, goes to oversee the start of the new business.
• Jason: Goes with Galasso to bartend at the new location. He had no say in this decision.
• Danny: Gets left behind. He’ll figure it out eventually.
(source: may 13, 2021) (edited and bullet-pointed for clarity) (some of the situations are now outdated, but surprisingly few of them) (crossing fingers i didn‘t mess up any of the HTML) (yeah i bookmark my favourite comments, what)
Basically. She’s certainly not leaving in the middle of the semester. And we’ve got years to go. Decades unless Willis decides to do another big time-skip.
It is possible that she’s already rejected an offer and that’s messing her up big time. I don’t like that idea, but I’m kind of leaning towards it these days.
idk I’m pretty sure disagreeing with anything Dorothy did this arc means you hate her and consider her a predator, and also maybe think she’s a real person. at least that’s what I’ve been told
[deletes snarky response]
There have been easily as bad takes from the other side of the argument. Maybe we could tone down the rhetoric, rather than throw gas on it.
It wasn’t anything particularly clever, just trying to throw the same kind of thing back in the other direction.
I’m sick of this fight and don’t want to make it worse.
You’re probably right (re rhetoric). I don’t remember if I agree with you re the arc but that’s a good thing (would rather not remember everyone’s opinions in any direction)
wonder who’s the youngest person who aspired to be president and taken concrete steps forward, because other than a little kid saying it in a ‘future jobs’ presentation, i imagine someone who’s not even 21 yet wanting to be president and basically type A(?) personality like dorothy would burn out in their 30s if they don’t already have ‘gifted kid burnout’
Or even, maybe all the older ppl who have ran are like “eh fuck it, might as well do this one crazy thing before i go out” because other than being bored or nothing else to do after retirement, it feels like any kinda politics that’s not like a local mayor/smaller scale would be exhausting if you’re not at the ‘peak’ of your youth
It’s always had a weird feel to me – kind of like the little kid thing.
I’m sure there are people her age with Presidential ambitions and even actively working on them, but by that time I’d expect them to be framed more as more general political ambitions. Lots of politicians are always looking forward to the next higher office, with President as an end goal, even if they never get to position where they can make a run for it.
it’s especially odd because I haven’t really seen her talk about a fallback (or, even if she doesn’t want a fallback because she wants to be confident, or something, a job for before she is elected for anything).
Maybe the thing is that Dorothy, amongst all the people who proudly decide to defy norms, STILL thinks she’s normal? And therefore i think Yoto’s comment might benefit her XD
Don’t think so, but also singular they feels fine here? Maybe slightly awkwadd if i squint, but i feel like it’s commonly used for people who normally go by one of the binary options.
I would rifle through Language Log, i feel like they’ve commented on this a few times, but i’m already procrastinating. Gotta have some limits.
If it’s common for binary people, I haven’t noticed. I was also partly riffing on the recurring phenomenon of people misgendering Booster and the first response simply being a pronoun correction.
I think it’s more common in referring to binary folks in some communities than in others. The people I hang out with are pretty queer, but the singular they at me still feels weird to me as a binary person because it is so specifically something I encounter in places where people are referring to non-binary folks. It’ll feel less weird if it’s dropped arbitrarily in conversation (especially when it’s used interchangeably with she), but the more intentional it feels the more it feels like I’m possibly being misgendered? I would prefer not to have that reaction to it, because I think we’d live in a better society if there were only gender-neutral pronouns. But it definitely carries a “I’ve clocked you as potentially non-binary” meaning in the spaces that I’m used to.
lol carla being any form of ‘weirdo’ would be even more endearing. (i mean looks wise i can see the attraction to malaya but not personality wise, esp considering she wants everyone to worship her, unless she likes her because malaya ‘doesn’t care’ lol)
Can’t help but notice that last panel Dorothy has no blush marks and seems pale compared to the other panels. Anyone here think there’s significance to this?
Willis wouldn’t do it accidentally. Dorothy is not in a good place. I don’t grok the details, but she’s clearly having trouble telling herself she’s in control, and being in control is like 700% of her self image.
well, she short does right under her eyes if you lookc losely/zoom in but that might be just to highlight/underline like a glasses shadow? hard to tell when she’s already pale tho
Okay if I open up the site on a private browser the blush marks are there, but on my main browser they’re still missing, no matter how many times I refresh or close out. Weird! But sorry for the false alarm everyone.
Dorothy, if you don’t want to be counted as just another run of the mill politician then you can’t get just put a simple band-aid solutions on top of a on going predicament and just call it fixed.
In some placed the ability to even execute a band aid solution is considered a great success and the markings of a good politican beqcuse you actually got something done.
For someone who glared over Joyce not lying well to Carla she’s oddly comfortable shouting about uti care in public, even if it doesn’t look like there’s anyone there.
In theory that’s the point of going to a prestigious university but the question remains if she has the social skills to make it happen once there. So far she has a tight knit friend group and is on a casual aquintance status with most people outside it.
“I have plenty of charisma, you just don’t see it!” Though i’m not sure how many yale students would necessarily reach out/associate with her if she got in through a scholarship versus a ‘trust fund kid’ or so, but i wouldn’t bother with upper class education like that ,i ‘m sure they’re not all terrible but some are too privillged to realize it
(Wonder if there’s stories of a fairly ‘rich’ kid going to a ‘normal’ college and still doing well, or starting their own business/finding a job/hobby they’re passionate about that’s not funded by generations of wealth lol)
Dorothy, in the wise words of Walter White, what the fuck are you talking about
No, like, really, I don’t know
You are the central cipher of this storyline, I swear to God, and no one has cracked you, I know I goddamn haven’t and I strongly suspect anyone who claims they have is either A.) lying or B.) lives in a world where Willis wrote you marrying Hank and breaking plates on his head while Joyce weep, bound to a chair with chains you forged from her autism.
And we finally get a moment alone with you, and your motivations are…just…as opaque…?!
Look at this! This line of reasoning could mean anything! It could mean “I’ve decided about Yale”, it could mean “I’m going to clean up after Joyce every time she cums”, it could mean “I realize I have perverse sexual lust for Joyce”, it could be “I’m going to become the Joker”. Any of these are applicable!!! And if you claim to know what she’s thinking, no you don’t!!
Sincerely, I bet on this. Dorothy is clearly stealing glances at Joyce’s butt (by the head angle), and the fact she does not have a blush and is trying to convince herself of her motives sounds a lot about fearing about she just did discover about herself.
Of course, I am a great enthusiast of lesbian ships and may be blind, but it really appears to be a unwanted discovery about herself that Dorothy is going through.
I don’t get it really either. I think it could be all of the above. Whatever her realization at least she’s trying to accept it. For my money she probably is at least a little attracted to Joyce even if it’s mostly obscured by their platonic quasi-parent/child dynamic. Maybe I don’t understand women. I hope any ladies can chime in on how platonic and normal it is to hold hands with your gal pal as she heats up her oven.
I also think she’s accepting the responsibility she elects to have in fixing problems. Even if no one cares, even if no one knows they’re problems. Jennifer really got to her somehow with that, Roz too apparently.
And maybe she is turning into the Joker. Fuck it, why not. This plan was pretty nuts.
I agree with you on everything except that they have any parent/child anything going on, there’s some mentor/mentee energy going on there but not more than that.
I mean Jennifer flat out called Dorothy Joyce’s biggest mom friend and Dorothy doesnt deny this. I feel Willis has intentionally set up something of a parent child dynamic for the two in their interactions especially recently dorothys mindset is less supportive friend more mother knows best.
I think it does. Like it’s a joke in the comments, but I think it does dip slightly into that relationship, which is fine cause relationship s are complex and can change from moment to moment. These two recent strips in particular tell me that they might even be aware of it. I think Joyce even takes advantage of it.
…Fuck. On the one hand, those strips are very good evidence that at least the mentor/mentee relationship is of a certain flavor, and the flavor is maternal, yes. Those are really good strips as evidence.
On the other hand, I do not and cannot subscribe to the idea that Dorothy is consciously exercising some kind of parental control over Joyce. That is not a healthy read of their dynamic and I won’t respond to it.
That’s just a word game and I’m genuinely irritated with you, StClair. No. Dorothy does not, full emphasis, does not exercise knowing parental control over Joyce. If I admit to there being a maternal quality to their interactions, that does not magically make Dorothy into Joyce’s wicked stepmother and I will not pretend it does.
Like. That’s just infantilization of Joyce with extra steps, and the extra steps are “I want Dorothy to be the villain of this storyline where there isn’t a villain.” No. I am done talking about this or considering it.
Ugh, never mind, I think I jumped down your throat personally when you’re not, a, a proponent of the idea, and that’s bullshit. Fuck. I’m sorry, StClair. I’m just… so tired of a certain kind of this discourse.
I feel like you’re reading something into the description of their relationship as “parental”/”maternal” that a lot of folks just don’t seem to be intending here.
Certainly *I* have been using it in a sense that’s essentially interchangeable with “mentor/mentee with a maternal flavor”.
I don’t know about you, but a lot of people have been using it to argue that it puts them in a power dynamic relationship that at least messes with Joyce’s ability to consent if it doesn’t take it away completely.
I said it above already but I’ll say it again here since it’s being specifically addressed: power structures can be created in many ways. Trust and experience are very commonly a part of unhealthy power dynamics, which is exactly what’s going on with Joyce and Dorothy.
When you’re saying things like trust and experience or looking up to friends create power differentials and that affects the ability to consent, it sounds to me like you’re saying that’s inherently bad in a relationship? Which I have trouble believing is what you mean.
Trust can be exploited, but you do want it anyways, right?
Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Trust is of course good. The imbalance here is that Joyce trusts Dorothy—Dorothy does not trust Joyce. Joyce is inexperienced—Dorothy is experienced. This is the power imbalance which has created a pattern of unhealthy behavior between them. The power structure.
Dorothy believes she can “help” Joyce avoid what Dorothy believes to be bad decisions, because she does not trust Joyce to do so on her own. Joyce listens, because she trusts Dorothy’s experience. That’s the exploitation.
Dorothy does this because she believes it is her natural position to do so, as seen in todays strip. It’s control for the sake of being in control. In my opinion.
Although I should ALSO add I don’t think you, Sirksome, are subscribing to that theory and I don’t wish you to feel like I am. It’s just why I’m being stubborn about the whole Dorothy = maternal thing, y’know??
I don’t think it’s a conscious thing on Dorothy’s part either. But I still think its *there* and I think she definitely has control issues generally, needing to be in control of herself and situations. And I think that unfortunately, as much as she tries to go about it gently, is not good in combination with that dynamic.
I think this is fair, sure, and I subscribe to the idea that what’s going on is not cool or healthy or good. Dorothy is masking a giant well of trauma. She watched her best friend and mentee being literally taken away to be killed, and she knew in the moment that it was “her fault” (it wasn’t but lol trauma brain don’t care), and I’m sure that’s helping sweet fuck-all about this situation.
Where I run into problems is the idea that Dorothy is a villain or an abuser or a sex criminal.
Dorothy doesn’t have to be “a villain or an abuser or a sex criminal” to be doing consent really really badly or being excessively pushy, though.
Being the “villain” requires ill intent, and Dorothy clearly doesn’t have that. What she DOES seem to have, especially after today’s strip, is a need to be correct and in control, and that seems to CURRENTLY be manifesting as “I’m going to manage my friend’s life for her until it’s running to my specifications”.
Good intentions (sort of, since her ACTUAL intentions here are “prove Roz wrong” and “cockblock Joe” as much as “help Joyce for the sake of helping Joyce”), but wrong actions.
Rabbit said it better then I tried to say it through this entire debacle.
Dotty has major control issues that started before the comic even began, and an unhealthy mentor relationship with Joyce, and *that* made everything that happened in the laundry super creepy crawly.
That’s where my “consent” issue sprang up, because I dead-ass believe Dotty has that handle on Joyce, *but is unaware she has it,* so she thinks just asking “Hey we good?” is good enough.
Because I think Dotty is incredibly sheltered when it comes to the kind of mental abuse Joyce has had to deal with from her mom and her community.
Monkey brain just doesn’t break out of the programming of “There is one leader, just follow and everything will be cool even if it feels wrong in the moment”just because you’ve had the epiphany the leader you were given was terrible/nonexistent.
I’ll tack on here as an autistic afab who heavily relates to Joyce’s experience:
Saying she has a lot of conditioning that may lead her not to explicitly question Dorothy, who has shown herself time and time again to be considerate, even if she takes it too far/in ways people don’t really… need? A lot of the time.
On top of this, her being autistic does leave her more vulnerable to being taking advantage of – *EVEN ACCIDENTALLY.* I’m not babyfying or infantilizing her by saying this. I got so burnt out seeing people claiming that Joyce potentially feeling pressured as ‘completely taking away her agency’ and ‘infantilizing the autistic girl’
Because Joyce was a trusting and naiive girl BEFORE we got the information she is autistic. Just because she’s had some personal epiphanies doesn’t mean she’s now able to immediately break years of brainwashing and trauma from a literal cult. Dorothy is a perceived safe, somewhat authority figure in her friend group. And for the most part she is! She is just woefully unaware of her effect on Joyce.
I’m saying this as an autistic afab who very often looks to my perceived more ‘together’ and intelligent friends for advice and suggestion, and I can recount multiple times I implicitly trusted someone despite being deeply uncomfortable because I truly believe they were acting altruistically/doing what was best for me. And I behaved very similarly to Joyce in this last arc.
Dotty *is* incredibly sheltered. All of her seeming experiences are mostly informed and book-based. Hence why she faced difficulty against Roz, who was supposedly good with people. She relies on her reasoning and logic too much. Billie vouching for her came with her earnestness. (which she seems to suppress in favor of rational thinking.)
Where Roz tries to seem superior and ‘worldlier’ than everyone, Dotty wants to express her value via her intelligence, but it only goes so far when you’re soley going off book smarts.
And I know in the past she’s been kind of a shitty friend to Joyce at times, explicitly steamrolling her desires in favor of things she think Joyce needs to ‘fix’ in various ways. I don’t think she’s a bad person.
I do think she’s in way over her head, and doesn’t tend to think deeper than the surface level. She doesn’t really delve into the emotional aspects of behavior, either. And as a result doesn’t tend to reflect on her OWN feelings much beyond how they initially present themselves. Which I think is why she feels so opaque to a lot of us vis a vis internal thoughts.
This is a good point. Their relationship has an aspect of codependency. As much as Joyce is learning and growing, she was raised in a cult and brainwashed to obey authority figures her whole life. Dorothy is clearly someone she trusts and views as an authority figure.
I’ll take a stab ^^ Long comment incoming, this is something I’ve been thinking about all through the Joeyce stuff lately and especially this mini-arc. Hopefully it’s coherent, I probably should have typed it in Word or notepad or somewhere easier to read than the comment box and pasted it in, but oh well!
tl;dr is I think Dorothy is feeling jealous of her relationship with Joyce, which seems to be under threat, and is cracking under the weight of the pressure she puts herself under and looking for something she can fix.
I think Dorothy is spiralling hard right now. We’ve seen cracks in the facade of her control prior to these events, especially since the kidnapping but they were present before as well. Dropping grades, uncertainty and regret around her relationship with Walky, feeling conflicted about Yale, etc. She’s caught between her own demands for her perfection and just, the things she actually wants in the present moment.
Following on from that interaction with Walky, I think she’s feeling sexually frustrated, as well as more generally frustrated at her always helpful, always perfect persona and always putting others first, and like by finding that hard to maintain she’s failing her own standards.
Then you add in the arcs with Joyce’s glasses and meds and the subsequent conflicts with Billie and Roz that just reinforced for her that she has to fix all of Joyce’s problems for her and be the perfect friend, and prove to herself and everyone else that she can take care of everything.
And of course, we can’t ignore the ongoing drama of the SS Joeyce. I think there’s a really strong dose of unconscious jealousy in her feelings there. Sure, she rationalises it as Joe not being good enough for Joyce (a not-unreasonable belief given what she knows of him), and her just wanting to protect her friend from a shameless user, but I’d say there’s been plenty in her behaviour to suggest that she sees him as a threat to her relationship with Joyce. I’m not saying she has an unrequited crush on Joyce or anything (although I’m also not not saying that), I think Dorothy is currently on high alert for threats to their friendship, threats to Joyce, and things that could cause her to lose control. In contrast to Becky’s whole shtick earlier about not letting anyone get closer to Joyce than her and Dorothy brushing it off, I think Dorothy is starting to get competitive about being the best friend to Joyce, even if she doesn’t really realise that.
Basically, what all this adds up to, is Dorothy feeling this threatening loss of control, and looking for it where she can find it. That’s expressing itself as a need to solve all of Joyce’s problems for her, because her own feel too big. Then, you also have the jealousy leading to a need for closer bonding to Joyce and laying her claim to her. She’s not aware of any of this, and rationalises it to herself as trying to be a good friend and a problem-solver, because that’s just what she does, but it’s clear none of this was through-through at all. She wanted to show Roz she wasn’t a prude. She wanted to protect Joyce from Joe (and maybe to prove that she was the closest to Joyce?). She wanted a problem she felt like she could fix, and we know this is something she’s thought about before. She wanted to feel like she was in control and she could still solve all the problems. Hence all this mess.
And now, in the aftermath, she sees that her helpful impulses have just left her with another (more literal) mess to clean up for someone, and a recognition that she chose this. What I’m not really clear on is, is this a reaffirmation on her commitment to that role, or a realisation that she doesn’t have to be the perfect, has it all in control, cleans up your mess for you friend?
I agree with what you say and I’d like to add something as well.
I’m guessing that in High School Dorothy was a high achiever, probably because she is intelligent but also because she has a goal and is striving towards that goal.
In high school theres a whole mix of people, the strivers and the slackers, the middle of the road and all the rest but its easier to get to the top of a high school because you have a lot less people wanting to be at the top
Fast forward to college and now Dorothy has to deal with people just as intelligent, just as driven etc etc and shes now discovering that being top in high school doesn’t count for as much now that shes in college and in her first head to head election (so to speak) with Roz she got wrecked.
Dorothy has had to go from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in a big pond and shes been smacked in the face with the reality that she can have as good a grades as she can and go to the right colleges (which is in her control) but she might not have the required personal charisma (likeability) to succeed in politics.
So the personal enmity with Roz might run just that little bit deeper
Oh, that’s a great point about the election with Roz, I’d totally forgotten about that! Yes, that definitely stung and would be good extra motivation to try to get a ‘win’ here.
I agree with all of this. And I especially like the point about Dorothy solving other people’s problems because she can’t figure out how to solve her own.
I think we’re supposed to see that Dorothy doesn’t understand what’s going on with her either.
She’s clearly unsatisfied with the role she’s created for herself. But she doesn’t appear to have any idea what to do about that, probably because she’s identified with that role for so long.
I think it will take a great deal more discomfort before she finally decides to change something. And there’s no telling what that change will be, or if it will help with her issues.
Y’all really thought *Dorothy* didn’t have a plan for disinfecting, huh? Plans are her entire thing, she’s like a slightly less problematic Elizabeth Warren
given the chapter name/current title i would’ve thought the killers song would’ve been on ppl’s mind in the forefront tho iwill admit outside of that one song i never rly sought out their otehrs backi n theday
My prediction is that this is going to backfire. I’m guessing… Joyce will throw herself at Joe who rejects her because she doesn’t love him, and he tells her that her first time should be with somebody she loves. So, who does Joyce love? Hmmmm…. (looking at Dorothy)
Huh, the thanks comment and the weird attitude is starting to make sense. Dorothy thinks of it as her responsibility to “help” her friends with their “issues.” And from that place, she’s only seeing Joyce’s recent pushback as Joyce rejecting her help, not a sign of Joyce actually growing. She feels resentful that people aren’t happy with how she’s trying to take care of them, so she’s acting from that resentment, not realizing that she’s the one who appointed herself that job and help nobody asked for often isn’t the right kind of help.
Feels like a familiar relationship dynamic tbh, one that hurts a lot and helps no one (personal experience, y’know) and I hope she can pull her head out of her ass and get some help herself.
Ugh this dynamic is painfully familiar to me, too. No, (ex-?) friend, it’s not reasonable to resent me for not taking your help I never asked for. Why is it so hard to accept that I don’t need you to fix anything for me, I just want to exist together and mutually enjoy one another’s company. It’s also not reasonable to resent me for moving in directions in my life that were not personally orchestrated/facilitated/approved of in advance by you.
You know Dorothy, you could try letting other people solve their own issues. Just a thought, maybe let them have that choice instead of assuming you need to solve their problems for them.
She’s trying to fix other people because she doesn’t know how to fix her own issues and burying herself in other people’s emotional labor makes her feel a.) useful and b.) not broken in some way she can’t fully diagnose let alone address.
Or at least that’s my read. Feels familiar. But also maybe she’s just horny for Joyce. Could be both!
feels like that’s something she should talk to her therapist with, assuming she gets better advice than that one time ppl were saying was terrible, but at this point she does act more like a ‘personal assistant’ than future president. (tho every president should prolly have a life coach/personal therapist on hand lol)
welp. it’s only a matter of time now before dorothy inevitably erupts and unleashes her crazy ex-girlfriend “after everything i’ve done for you” moment on joyce.
Are y’all sure she didn’t reject her prestigious university?
If she reminds herself of something being her choice, it’s starting to feel like a bad choice.
I’m thinking it came during the emotional aftermath of Toedad, and she couldn’t bring herself to go then, because “Everyone needs her here” but is kicking herself for not going in the present, because everyone she thought “needed” her, are changing their relationships with her.
Walky’s moved on, Joyce is quickly learning to move past her many, many traumas, Billie and Roz have evolved past her as a “foe.”
That’s the implication I’ve been worried about since the bit where she was like “you have no idea how much I–” in response to Joyce saying something about how Dorothy didn’t care a little while ago. Reeeeally hoping that doesn’t turn into a well of resentment.
She’s obviously not going to Yale *this* semester, and iirc Willis doesn’t have plans to continue the comic into their next year. They’re only barely starting second semester now, so Dorothy still has years of comic time left even if she goes to Yale at the earliest possible opportunity.
I still don’t understand the meaning of the phrase “Turning saints into the sea”. And I already searched Google and made the exhausting job of listening to this song.
Gonna guess it’s about how saints are supposed to be these bright, shining beacons of pureness, and the sea is a fathomless void of darkness.
So he’s turned this image of a woman he’s held as a Saint, and because she’s “Wronged him” she’s not really a saint at all, but a cold, opaque, void that sucked him in.
Kind of spitballing it entirely but I think it holds up.
That or there’s something historical about people throwing saint statues into the sea for whatever reason? hell if I know.
I don’t know if this costume existed, but it make me remember a tradition in some old nations in Africa, like Mane people, that they lash their idols if they lose a battle, because they are warriors.
These people may have gave origin to Omoloko, an african religion, pretty similar to brazilian Candomble, or Umbanda.
Good question! I haven’t heard the song but yeah, i just vaguely assumed something biblical.
Interesting tidbit about the Omoloko religion, i know so little about brazil but the transmutations and creolization of african traditions, together with the indigenous and colonizing influences in your country must be fascinating to study??
Dorothy offered to leave the room and guard the door so Joyce could use her fingers. I wouldn’t blame someone for assuming that Joyce did use her fingers, since she eventually took Dorothy up on the request.
Hm, that’s somehow both terrifying and wildly optimistic.
My money’s on a United States of the Eastern Seaboard Metropolitan Area, stuck in an endless war with the rest of the continent while red state after red state declares independence.
Simplicity is necessary for building a habit. If a habit is broad enough to protect you, that it occasionally means doing something cheap that wasn’t strictly necessary but is not harmful, is okay. The point is learning to associate the two actions so you don’t think about it (and thus don’t sometimes think yourself out of doing something you should have done).
OH NO IT’S THIIIIS.
I TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOMETHING NO ONE ASKED ME TO AND NOBODY NEEDED ME TO AND HONESTLY NO ONE WANTED ME TO AND WHEN I’M NOT APPRECIATED FOR THE WORK I DID EXPLICITLY TO BE APPRECIATED I WILL BECOME RESENTFUL AND SHITTY.
HARHARHAR.
DONT DECIDE TO DO SOMETHING ON YOUR OWN AND THEN THINK YOU’RE OWED FOR THE THING YOU DECIDED TO DO YOUR OWN DAMN SELF.
I appreciate this in this particular case, but I do think there are cases where it’s not unreasonable to ask people to be grateful for doing things without being asked like if one person is doing a disproportionate amount of whatever responsibility (or a big responsibility that’s a ton of work) or if one person takes on the stuff they know other people don’t want to do but needs to be done. Wanting recognition and/or appreciation for work you do, whether it’s asked for or not, is normal. The problem is Dorothy has a habit of taking over people’s problems to avoid her own and her solutions are….questionable in their helpfulness sometimes.
Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life… I think Dorothy should go with Joyce, it’s clear she wants to follow her (no idea why, but she wants) but she remains at the laundry because of her sense of responsibility.
Ok, guys guys guys. Remember that episode of Farscape where Chiana’s brother dies, and she kind of loses it and joins a death cult and wants to jump into a magic well that sometimes kills people and sometimes doesn’t? And Chrichton thinks he has to save her and comes up with increasingly drastic measures to try and stop her, but eventually he realizes he can’t stop her and she jumps in the well and everything turns out ok?
Genuinely waiting for the episode during Sophomore year where Dotty becomes an angry hermit for all of 3-5 weeks then gives up and rejoins the cast. It should only take 2 years in comics to sort it out.
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so was that YOUR laundry in that dryer, Dotty?
pretty sure they both had baskets
Is this some sort of plan-ahead thing? Does drying something “lopsideable” like sneakers yield a better experience?
Asking for a friend.
Even if entirely empty, clothes dryers still tend to produce a steady, consistent vibration (from the drum motor) that some might find pleasurable.
Some modern machines will refuse to let you spin an unbalanced load. I have looked for this trope. TvTropes has failed me.
And any large imbalance would not be as satisfying as the gentle vibrations of the system functioning nominally.
Yeah, I think most people prefer their sex toys to not be actively attempting to dislodge them.
With some notable exceptions, naturally.
Maybe it should be the relevant other people’s choice’s too.
But that would require Dorothy not thinking she knows what’s best for everyone all the time
Someone really has to have a sit down with Dororhy and remind her that she doesn’t in fact have all the answers and that’s okey.
Yea I feel like that’s kinda the heart of it
If you think not having the objectively best answer to literally every conceivable question, can ever be something that is okay, you’ve never been sick in quite the way Dorothy is.
Yeah. As much as I think this is Dotty having an epiphany, I know it’s her doubling down.
They’re all 20 year olds. Their natural response to every epiphany they have, is immediately doubling down.
They’re ~18-19, except Sarah, who is 20. (And of course Ruth and Jason are grad students, so ~23ish?)
Ruth is 20 and not a grad student
21 I believe as Daisy was her Birthday date and Jason was able to legally server her.
you certainly did make some choices today dorothy
It’s not very convincing if you have to repeat it.
Yeah. I mean it is her choice, but its seems to me like she is trying to convince herself she takes certain actions out of pure altruism rather than fear of what could happen if she is a less than perfect friend (read: servant).
Yeah. I know that feeling.
The behind-the-scenes caretaker. “Cherchez la femme” — behind every successful person is a supportive person, or a supportive crew.
…OK, upon a quick search I see I’ve been misled as to the meaning of “cherchez la femme”. I always thought it meant, “When you see a successful person, ‘look for the woman’ behind them — look for the support person or people in that person’s life, who made that person’s success possible.”
Yeah, it means “chase the women” as in “womanizer”.
I learned that as a kid from reading the introduction to a Pogo collection. (Pogo Possum’s turtle friend is named Churchy Lafemme.)
Wikipedia says it’s about femme fatales in pulp fiction. Like it’s from an Alexandre Dumas book
The original use of the saying is in a Dumas book where it’s in the context of finding the motive for the actions of a man. The sentence is uttered by someone who is convinced said actions are part of a scheme to impress a woman, so finding her would allow to unravel the whole plot. “Seek the woman!”
It’s not about chasing. This would be courez la femme instead, cf. “coureur de jupon” (skirt chaser).
The “seek the supportive person who made this man’s success possible” sounds like a feminist reclaiming of the expression, and I think I like this re-interpretation. It’s clever and very often accurate.
Yeah there’s a reason New Vegas used it as an alternative to “Black Widow”
I found another meaning: if there’s a problem, the cause of it must be a woman. How rude
Yeah, i associate that with 50’s noir private eye types, being all like “sex is the ultimate motive to every crime”.
I’d say that’s a saying that’s ripe for reclaiming. @Laura Your interpretation is a lot better and I support it =)
Also, here’s a thought. I see and appreciate the effort you make towards gender-neutral language, like “support person”.. But isn’t this one of those situations where it *is* still overwhelmingly women who support successful men, without being credited for their critical role in that success? I feel like this may be one of those cases where gender-neutral language just… kind of misses the point?? I mean, it was your point to make but hm. Yeah. It’s just a thought, i’m not especially confident about my opinion on this
Thanks, milu.
Yes, that’s what I meant — behind successful men are supportive women. “Cherchez la femme”. Look for the women waiting in the wings, the backstage crew. Look for the ones who area actually getting s*** done, not just taking the credit.
But that IS changing, bit by bit. There are supportive folks of all genders, and “successful” (public-facing) folks of all genders. So I figured I’d make a step toward the future and broaden the idiom.
Strangely, I also learned the phrase from reading “Pogo” as a child. (“The Kluck Klams” still brings me to tears. I’ve performed it a couple of times as a storyteller, but I don’t know how to do it respectfully enough when the subject matter is so sensitive and fraught with opportunities to cause inadvertent offense.)
It was my Dad who said that, “cherchez la femme”, meant, “Behind every successful man is a strong woman. Look for the women behind the scenes.”
Perhaps he just wanted to give me hope, when I was a child. That phrase (what I thought it meant) has been one of the guiding principles of my life. I’ve always thought my greatest achievement in life was supporting other people to achieve their own goals.
Supporting people to achieve their own goals is indeed a great accomplishment. Just, there are a ton of highly supportive women who realize (usually around menopause) that they’ve supported others like bosses, but have never identified or chased their own goals, and it makes them feel really sad and angry.
I want to check in and remind you to identify your goals, too.
Your own desires are also completely worthy of attention, support, and getting achieved. <3
(And ofc that also goes for any gender of person, that your goals are worthy. I made it gendered because this pattern has been observed very frequently in women, historically, so that it’s a Thing, where people raised as women should be especially cognizant of a cultural designation as Support Person. There! Gender has been solved.)
phew thanks Leorale, that was an annoying problem =D
yeah, it’s very much a Thing. so i guess my point was, isn’t it… a bit soon?? to be including all genders when talking about the invisible burden still mostly shouldered by women, mostly for the benefit of men, mostly with very little recognition, unlike the rare stay-at-home dad?
Lately i’ve been noticing a trend, and i have zero data or independent confirmation so far other than my own hunch, being that single dads seem super common in fiction? i feel like they are overrepresented on screen compared to the numbers in society, where obviously stay-at-home/single moms are way more common.
and many of these depictions are sympathetic; they tend to be devoted, though somewhat exhausted and clueless at times. (and yet the dad is so often the one to deliver the wise monologue of reconciliation with their kid at the end of coming-of-age stories.) A man changing nappies or playing with kids seems to attract a surplus of sympathy, and will often be portrayed as an unsung hero in other characters’ lives; whereas a woman being there for her kids and/or partner is more often framed as just doing unremarkable routine stuff, and her domestic work is rarely emphasized as praiseworthy.
To put it succinctly it feels like a stay-at-home dad is comedy, a stay-at-home mom social drama. you know?
i’m still very much unsure of what i’m trying to get at here, and also i’m a cis-ish straight-ish guy, so… grain of salt.
also, this may be a very white perspective, i feel like hip hop at least tends to acknowledge and praise the labour of motherhood. there may be other issues there to discuss, but i’m not equipped for that.
Thank you, Leorale. That means a lot to me, and I appreciate it very much. I really do.
I appreciate YOU.
…Having now reached the end of my childbearing years, you captured exactly how I feel.
And yet I’m still proud of the people I’ve managed to help, and still haunted by the ones I haven’t. :~)
Thanks, too, milu. That makes a LOT of sense.
Right now I’m watching “Attorney Woo,” and the single dad there definitely fulfills that trope!
Regardless of Gender, there needs to be a Frontline Pointperson and a Rear Guard Support Person. This makes me remember the dynamic from the Outlaw Star Anime. Jean Starwind was the Pointman, and Jim Hawking was the Backup.
One could also see the Outlaw Star Crew as a Raid Party. Melfina is the Healer. Jean Starwind is the Tank. Jim Hawking is the Operator. Twilight Suzuka and Aisha Clan-Clan are the DPS.
True that!
She’s SO gay, but she doesn’t want to face a part of herself that isn’t “presidential”, so she shuffled words around to make this look like grist for her mill. 😑
“So I will learn to live with it… because I can live with it. I can live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log.”
“In The Pale Moonlight” was the best Star Trek episode.
Objectively correct Star Trek opinions today, I see. <3
Yes… Ha ha ha… YES!
I’m not sure if its the greatest episode of all time but is defiantly one of, if not, the best episodes of ds9 (which in my opinion is the best Trek Series).
Also, do you know why it is called “In the Pale Moonlight?” I assume its a reference to another work, for I don’t recall a single moon appearing in the episode.
It’s a reference to, of all things, a line from Jack Nicholson portraying the Joker in the 1989 Batman movie, where he’d ask his victims “Hey, you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?”
It’s cause Sisko chose to dance with the devil. That devil being Garak.
“And all it cost was the life of one criminal…the life of one Romulan senator…and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. Now I don’t know about YOU…but I’d call that a bargain.”
It only just sunk in, how deliberately they must have chosen the job of “tailor” for him. He sells people whatever it is that they want to see.
Garak is easily in the top 5 best characters list.
Figuring out Garak eventually became the only reason I kept watching.
It’s a line in the song “Copper Kettle.” I’m not familiar with the Star Trek episode, so I can’t say if it’s apropos.
https://youtu.be/CUpm0Bw9xWQ
That is such a beautiful song. Joan Baez is a national treasure.
And yes, the lyrics fit that episode perfectly.
Make your choices: choose sin. Choose lawlessness. Roll the dice. Pay your money, take your choice. Accept your actions.
Love it.
I think you could argue that while it’s one of the best episodes Star Trek ever made, it’s not one of the best Star Trek episodes.
It’s not really an episode that fits the spirit or tone of Trek, but it’s still an extremely good episode.
Yes. That sums it up perfectly. Though, ironically what I kind of liked about ds9 was that it took characters from the very white hat Federation and forced them into a region of space were events and issues were often very grey and what was right and what was perhaps necessary did not always align and could not always be made to – and yet the crew never stops trying to do the right thing. I think some of the best episodes of Star Trek are those that explore complex moral issues and don’t always come away with a clear answer.
Deep Space Nine is applying pressure to the utopian conceit of the Federation and asking what breaks, and that makes for a pretty compelling show but it does undercut a lot of the hopeful optimism.
I think that’s why they wrote Voyager, to carry on the “stop at a planet and have an adventure” formula. Equinox shows what could have happened to the crew if they abandoned the Federation’s principles with the singular goal of getting home ASAP.
This is actually really key to the magic of DS9, I think: the Federation is still good, it’s very white-hat, as you said, but things don’t always work out for the best, even with everyone trying their best. Yet they don’t *stop* trying.
This is also what I’ve ended up feeling is missing from some newer outings, and why I get irritated at what I feel are repeated stabs at “what if the Federation was BAD ACTUALLY?”
DS9 reminds us that the utopia created in Trek is not a “one-and-done” system, that it needs to be maintained, and it’s still incredibly easy for humans to go back into dark places if they don’t hold themselves accountable.
Meanwhile, on Picard…
That’s the very annoying mirror universe.
IT’S A FAAAAAKE!
Saying things more than once CAN make them more convincing . . . but yeah, doing so to yourself likely means you’re not already convinced.
Cause she’s Ms. Brightside?
I keep saying this but I am beginning to think I was, like a Lovecraft or Chambers protagonist, mad from the very start
*Googles “but it’s just the price I pag destiny is calling me” alt-text*
*Googles “Turning Saints into the sea” chapter title*
*Discovers both are from Mr Brightside by The Killers*
Is…. this where it comes together? I’, not sure I get it, and Daniel the Human is too tired to help out…
Mr. Brightside is a song about a man who believes he is being cheated on by his lover. It’s a song about jealousy of a perceived intruder on your relationship.
I guess Dorothy is Mr. Brightside in this story, which is an interesting parallel to draw.
Though interestingly from the music video:
The woman is not his lover, she’s a sexworker iirc? (it’s subtle but thats always how I saw the music video) So in reality he’s getting jealous over a projected/assumed relationship.
Don’t think that’s the angle Willis was aiming for here though.
I definitely think they’re meant to be a couple in the video, she’s a burlesque performer and he’s in the band, and he’s paranoid about his girlfriend working in a business where she has to perform sexuality with other men, and it ultimately destroys the relationship.
I’ll admit my understanding of Mr. Brightside is heavily influenced by it’s follow up / companion piece Miss Atomic Bomb which was them revisiting the same story and characters, and at least in that video, it really is all in his head.
Are we human, or are we dancer?
Choose somethin else why doncha
I think Phil just saw his shadow. Six more weeks of Winter.
Also, this is quite the big “head cheerleader, problem solver” mindset similarity right there, somehow
It feels a little different to me. Dorothy kind of invented the problem that she solved. Joyce’s sexual development isn’t really Dotty’s business, as well meaning as this whole thing was.
Dorothy’s going to need to come to terms with the fact that even if she wants to she can’t be Joyce’s life manager. it’s setting herself up for stress and underlining resentment when her efforts don’t get thanked and setting Joyce up for learned helplessness because she’s continuing to let somebody else make the hard decisions for her.
Sure, it’s Dorothy that’s setting Joyce up that way. Not her entire upbringing. It’s Dorothy’s fault. Trying to help people is bad, you see.
She’s certainly adding to the issue by unilaterally deciding to replace the authority figure Joyce just kicked out of her life, without apparently seeing that Joyce is still NOT fixed of her “Lead me leader” programming.
Joyce’s upbringing is definitely a factor. But Dorothy is “trying to help” because she doesn’t trust Joyce to be an adult and make good relationship choices on her own, specifically about Joe, which we have seen ourselves that she is perfectly capable of making.
Like she was perfectly capable of making good relationship choices about Jacob, last time Dorothy saw her especially horny for someone.
Fair, but Joyce is *allowed* to make mistakes. Its a part of how we learn and grow. And anyway, Dorothy clearly can’t stop her from making these sorts of choices by teaching her to JO—All she’s done here is draw a line that Joyce will inevitably cross and piss her off.
When I talk about power structure and unhealthy dynamic, this is what I’m trying to describe: “I’ve taught you to JO, so you won’t make any mistakes.” What she really means is “what *I* perceive to be mistakes.”
Power structures can be erected in many ways: experience, trust, culture to name a few. As soon as someone holds those things over your head, it becomes an unhealthy dynamic. Joyce implicitly trusts Dorothy, her sexually experienced atheist friend. And here Dorothy is drawing a line in the sand: don’t fuck Joe, I showed you how to deal with those feelings so do it my way instead.
Yeah I get you think that, but I just fundamentally disagree on almost all of it.
Yes, Dorothy is screwing up here. Partly due to her own stresses, which I suspect we’re going to dig deeper into eventually. Maybe mostly because of her misreading of Joe or not being aware of his changes.
I don’t read her as drawing lines in the sand or at least that not being the point of the JO lesson. She’s hoping Joyce will have clarity and realize she’s making a bad decision, but that’s not the same. She’d be upset if she continued, but that would have been true before this as well.
I just can’t read this as her holding anything over Joyce’s head. Or being able to, given how ready Joyce has been to push back in the past.
I don’t buy the power dynamic here being the problem. If it’s a problem at this scale, it’s always a problem between any two people who aren’t perfectly balanced.
I guess I can’t convince you! We’ll just have to see how it plays out.
Let me just say this before signing off though: the last thing you just said is actually very true and causes a lot of problems between friends, family members, coworkers etc.
I feel like Jennifer’s definitely done that before though.
All of the characters seem to overlap with others in some way, only having slight variations in motivation and/or execution.
That’s a pretty good description of humans in general, Bryy.
Well, they are all bits of Willis, expressed in different ways.
Yeah she’s stealing Jennifer’s schtick.
Is it one you’re happy with?
Going to Yale won’t be easy but I hope she does.
I don’t think Yale’s going to work out.
I think birds aren’t real. They are just part of the surveillance system put in place by our secret Saurian overlords.
I hope it does.
The post orgasm pee is very important. To quote one of the greats: “Urinary Tract Health Yo.”
That sounds very much like Empowered.
It’s a Becky quote (as noted below), but you do bring up a good point…
**one Amazon search later**
Ah. The new Empowered book will finally be released this August. Only four years after the previous one.
😍
I agree. Becky IS one of the greats.
“squirting” aside, other than needing to lie down and rest a few mins i feel like having to pee is a sensation you’d get pretty soon afterwads as well anyways lol
In spite of everything, I do still (generally) like Dorothy and wish her well, but yeah, I’d say she had a breakdown coming if it didn’t feel like she was already in the midst of one.
I’ve been confused for a while since it’s obvious Dorothy is spiraling but it’s totally opaque to me where that’ll lead.
Plot twist, Dorothy becomes the ultimate big bad of the comic.
Again?
nah, she was only HA’s puppet.
This is Willis’ plan. Dorothy will become so obnoxious a Highly Vocal Plurality will be happy when she finally leaves.
I think this heavily depends on whether she’s actually going to get written out of the comic and go to Yale or not.
Maybe Willis will shift focus to Yale and everyone else will be written out.
Ah, the Questionable Content maneuver.
I’m trying to view it as a spin-off series.
How did QC do that?
I’m mostly joking, QC isn’t actually writing out the old cast or location, but two major characters did just move to a new location in a way which would usually mean writing them out but instead the story has shifted focus a bit
And that’s what you missed… on Glee! (glee!)
seems like that would be a spinoff, but i wonder how many sitcoms/stories have taken place within an ‘ivy league’ school, since the charas that are like “oh i went to yale/harvard/etc” even as comedy relief can be annoying at times
Clif
Won’t everyone be surprised when Dorothy finds out that Joyce was also accepted at Yale.
Needfuldoer
DoA season 3 sees the whole cast relocate to Yale, for increasingly outlandish and reach-y reasons.
Khyrin
• Dorothy: Duh.
• Joyce: Applied for funsies. Qualifies for an obscure grant that gives her a full ride.
• Becksters: Largesse from a Liberal Senator.
• Dina: recommended for a fellowship with an archeolgy/paleontology dig in Connecticut.
• Walky and Sal: Cut the cord with momsie and popsicle; Sal is following Marcy, Walky is following Sal. Walky has a minor freakout when he realizes he’s the one maintaining the house while Sal keeps food on the table.
• Marcy: Moves to Connecticut to get out of the Midwest; gets job at a Private Security Firm alongside Sal.
• Malaya: Moves to be near Marcy; parents secretly own the Private Security Firm that hires Marcy and Sal.
• Lucy: accidentally smuggled in Dina’s luggage.
• Joe and Amber: Attend Southern Connecticut State University. Relocation at Richard’s insistence to keep them safe from Yuri’s revenge plot.
• Stacy and Richard: Relocate to Mechanicsville, Iowa.
• Faz: Sues for emancipation; shows up on Joyce’s front step.
milu
Season 4:
• Leslie is hired at Yale after writing a massively successful book on queer readings of pop culture classics.
• Robin, who loves a running gag, pulls all the strings she’s got and gets transferred to Yale just to surprise Leslie in the (considerably more wood-panelled) teacher’s lounge there. (she really did it just for the lulz, fo’shizzle!!)
• Carla has finally joined the roller derby team, and swiftly become something of a sensation and Yale has a really good roller derby team maybe?? and they scout her?! and she’s like “sure why not”.
• Ruth has dropped out of IU, she got into equine-assisted therapy as part of a rehab programme and decided to pursue that as a career and by pure sheer nonsense coincidence she finds an apprenticeship in New Haven, CT. She and Daisy are basically engaged by now so they move together.
•
BillieJenniferJennyJayXworth takes a backpacking sabbatical and becomes increasingly politically radical and winds up in Yale as a cleaners’ strike breaks out and decides to stick around and help out.• Booster just respawns as a Yale student. No one seems surprised and no explanation is ever given.
Octo
• Sarah: Begrudgingly talked into transferring by Joyce. Joyce actually made some good points about how it would benefit Sarah, who now claims those are the ONLY reasons, nothing to do with other people
• Galasso: Opens a second location in New Haven, goes to oversee the start of the new business.
• Jason: Goes with Galasso to bartend at the new location. He had no say in this decision.
• Danny: Gets left behind. He’ll figure it out eventually.
(source: may 13, 2021) (edited and bullet-pointed for clarity) (some of the situations are now outdated, but surprisingly few of them) (crossing fingers i didn‘t mess up any of the HTML) (yeah i bookmark my favourite comments, what)
Woops i only messed up the threading, oh well =P
Ok I would watch this. I’m sold. Someone tell Netflix.
Perfect.
So Galasso is there to redefine New Haven style pizza? Or to just take over Pepe’s? 🙂
I feel like this is a good place to copy-paste this very fun thread from
last yeartwo years ago what is time,Teaching the entire Yale student body how to achieve sexual release?
Pack a lunch… that might take awhile
Never gonna happen. Even if she decides to go, we could very easily be in this semester forever.
Basically. She’s certainly not leaving in the middle of the semester. And we’ve got years to go. Decades unless Willis decides to do another big time-skip.
It is possible that she’s already rejected an offer and that’s messing her up big time. I don’t like that idea, but I’m kind of leaning towards it these days.
Same, unfortunately. I hate the idea, but I do think things are hinting at her not going to Yale.
Going on a rampage of teaching people to masturbate
Before too long nobody can even use the laundries to clean their clothes
idk I’m pretty sure disagreeing with anything Dorothy did this arc means you hate her and consider her a predator, and also maybe think she’s a real person. at least that’s what I’ve been told
[deletes snarky response]
There have been easily as bad takes from the other side of the argument. Maybe we could tone down the rhetoric, rather than throw gas on it.
Nooo i want snarky thejeff 😁
It wasn’t anything particularly clever, just trying to throw the same kind of thing back in the other direction.
I’m sick of this fight and don’t want to make it worse.
Yeeeah i know. I respect that. I was just ribbing =)
You’re probably right (re rhetoric). I don’t remember if I agree with you re the arc but that’s a good thing (would rather not remember everyone’s opinions in any direction)
I also like her and wish her well, and I think maybe whatever breakdown is coming might just be really necessary for her
Agreed.
It’s okay to make mistakes, for Dorothy and Joyce both
wonder who’s the youngest person who aspired to be president and taken concrete steps forward, because other than a little kid saying it in a ‘future jobs’ presentation, i imagine someone who’s not even 21 yet wanting to be president and basically type A(?) personality like dorothy would burn out in their 30s if they don’t already have ‘gifted kid burnout’
Or even, maybe all the older ppl who have ran are like “eh fuck it, might as well do this one crazy thing before i go out” because other than being bored or nothing else to do after retirement, it feels like any kinda politics that’s not like a local mayor/smaller scale would be exhausting if you’re not at the ‘peak’ of your youth
It’s always had a weird feel to me – kind of like the little kid thing.
I’m sure there are people her age with Presidential ambitions and even actively working on them, but by that time I’d expect them to be framed more as more general political ambitions. Lots of politicians are always looking forward to the next higher office, with President as an end goal, even if they never get to position where they can make a run for it.
it’s especially odd because I haven’t really seen her talk about a fallback (or, even if she doesn’t want a fallback because she wants to be confident, or something, a job for before she is elected for anything).
You’re a weirdo, Dorothy.
Yoto. My brother in Christ.
Who in this comic (besides Carla, my divine queen and coolest person alive) is not a weirdo. Name even one character.
Galasso. Galasso is totally normal.
Okay, besides Carla and Lord Galasso the Mighty, who are outliers and should not be counted.
Mr. and Mrs. Keener, maybe?
Counterpoint: they created Dorothy
Ron, I guess.
Maybe the thing is that Dorothy, amongst all the people who proudly decide to defy norms, STILL thinks she’s normal? And therefore i think Yoto’s comment might benefit her XD
Faz is so entirely normal they’ve looped round through weirdo and back to normal.
He’s*
Now that I’m more awake, I’m wondering if you didn’t mean that Faz’s normalness is making everyone else look even weirder.
Don’t think so, but also singular they feels fine here? Maybe slightly awkwadd if i squint, but i feel like it’s commonly used for people who normally go by one of the binary options.
I would rifle through Language Log, i feel like they’ve commented on this a few times, but i’m already procrastinating. Gotta have some limits.
If it’s common for binary people, I haven’t noticed. I was also partly riffing on the recurring phenomenon of people misgendering Booster and the first response simply being a pronoun correction.
I think it’s more common in referring to binary folks in some communities than in others. The people I hang out with are pretty queer, but the singular they at me still feels weird to me as a binary person because it is so specifically something I encounter in places where people are referring to non-binary folks. It’ll feel less weird if it’s dropped arbitrarily in conversation (especially when it’s used interchangeably with she), but the more intentional it feels the more it feels like I’m possibly being misgendered? I would prefer not to have that reaction to it, because I think we’d live in a better society if there were only gender-neutral pronouns. But it definitely carries a “I’ve clocked you as potentially non-binary” meaning in the spaces that I’m used to.
Ken probably isn’t but we barely see him lol. (maybe he’ll end up being lucy’s boyfriend again(?) if she and walky do break up)
lol carla being any form of ‘weirdo’ would be even more endearing. (i mean looks wise i can see the attraction to malaya but not personality wise, esp considering she wants everyone to worship her, unless she likes her because malaya ‘doesn’t care’ lol)
I think the answer to that is obvious: Fuckface. Fuckface is the most normal one in all of Dumbing of Age.
Yes. you’ve solved it
It doesn’t have to be…
Can’t help but notice that last panel Dorothy has no blush marks and seems pale compared to the other panels. Anyone here think there’s significance to this?
Willis wouldn’t do it accidentally. Dorothy is not in a good place. I don’t grok the details, but she’s clearly having trouble telling herself she’s in control, and being in control is like 700% of her self image.
Yeah. Tonight should have felt like a success for her. But succeeding at helping others is somehow loosing it’s appeal…
well, she short does right under her eyes if you lookc losely/zoom in but that might be just to highlight/underline like a glasses shadow? hard to tell when she’s already pale tho
No, I still can see it. Is there difference?
The “blush marks” are there? Maybe willis went and corrected the comic when they noticed they forgot them
Okay if I open up the site on a private browser the blush marks are there, but on my main browser they’re still missing, no matter how many times I refresh or close out. Weird! But sorry for the false alarm everyone.
Dorothy, if you don’t want to be counted as just another run of the mill politician then you can’t get just put a simple band-aid solutions on top of a on going predicament and just call it fixed.
In some placed the ability to even execute a band aid solution is considered a great success and the markings of a good politican beqcuse you actually got something done.
For someone who glared over Joyce not lying well to Carla she’s oddly comfortable shouting about uti care in public, even if it doesn’t look like there’s anyone there.
Those are completely different things with no relation.
Not really, their both calling attention to what they were doing in the laundry room for anyone walking by even If less obvious.
*waives sarcasm sign*
Also Carla’s not a stranger in a hotel lobby. Her opinion actually matters.
she’s probably waited long enough/was around the area outside to tell that there wouldn’t be ppl that have passed by
Dorothy desperately needs to broaden her social circle, but I don’t think being trapped in a slice of life comic will afford her that option.
In theory that’s the point of going to a prestigious university but the question remains if she has the social skills to make it happen once there. So far she has a tight knit friend group and is on a casual aquintance status with most people outside it.
“I have plenty of charisma, you just don’t see it!” Though i’m not sure how many yale students would necessarily reach out/associate with her if she got in through a scholarship versus a ‘trust fund kid’ or so, but i wouldn’t bother with upper class education like that ,i ‘m sure they’re not all terrible but some are too privillged to realize it
(Wonder if there’s stories of a fairly ‘rich’ kid going to a ‘normal’ college and still doing well, or starting their own business/finding a job/hobby they’re passionate about that’s not funded by generations of wealth lol)
But have you solved your issues Dotty?
when you’re the mom friend but you forget to ‘mom’/take care of yourself
She used all the quarters for Joyce.
…. so this is Dorothy deciding NOT to run for President?
Dorothy, in the wise words of Walter White, what the fuck are you talking about
No, like, really, I don’t know
You are the central cipher of this storyline, I swear to God, and no one has cracked you, I know I goddamn haven’t and I strongly suspect anyone who claims they have is either A.) lying or B.) lives in a world where Willis wrote you marrying Hank and breaking plates on his head while Joyce weep, bound to a chair with chains you forged from her autism.
And we finally get a moment alone with you, and your motivations are…just…as opaque…?!
Look at this! This line of reasoning could mean anything! It could mean “I’ve decided about Yale”, it could mean “I’m going to clean up after Joyce every time she cums”, it could mean “I realize I have perverse sexual lust for Joyce”, it could be “I’m going to become the Joker”. Any of these are applicable!!! And if you claim to know what she’s thinking, no you don’t!!
Just…give me something, Dorothy! God dammit!
I doubt it’s the perverse sexual lust one. She’d look smug or happy or horny or something rather than just blank.
She might look blank because she didn’t get what she wants and thinks she never can.
Sincerely, I bet on this. Dorothy is clearly stealing glances at Joyce’s butt (by the head angle), and the fact she does not have a blush and is trying to convince herself of her motives sounds a lot about fearing about she just did discover about herself.
Of course, I am a great enthusiast of lesbian ships and may be blind, but it really appears to be a unwanted discovery about herself that Dorothy is going through.
I don’t get it really either. I think it could be all of the above. Whatever her realization at least she’s trying to accept it. For my money she probably is at least a little attracted to Joyce even if it’s mostly obscured by their platonic quasi-parent/child dynamic. Maybe I don’t understand women. I hope any ladies can chime in on how platonic and normal it is to hold hands with your gal pal as she heats up her oven.
I also think she’s accepting the responsibility she elects to have in fixing problems. Even if no one cares, even if no one knows they’re problems. Jennifer really got to her somehow with that, Roz too apparently.
And maybe she is turning into the Joker. Fuck it, why not. This plan was pretty nuts.
I agree with you on everything except that they have any parent/child anything going on, there’s some mentor/mentee energy going on there but not more than that.
I mean Jennifer flat out called Dorothy Joyce’s biggest mom friend and Dorothy doesnt deny this. I feel Willis has intentionally set up something of a parent child dynamic for the two in their interactions especially recently dorothys mindset is less supportive friend more mother knows best.
I think it does. Like it’s a joke in the comments, but I think it does dip slightly into that relationship, which is fine cause relationship s are complex and can change from moment to moment. These two recent strips in particular tell me that they might even be aware of it. I think Joyce even takes advantage of it.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/crowded/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/sketchpad/
She doesn’t act this away around Becky or Sarah.
…Fuck. On the one hand, those strips are very good evidence that at least the mentor/mentee relationship is of a certain flavor, and the flavor is maternal, yes. Those are really good strips as evidence.
On the other hand, I do not and cannot subscribe to the idea that Dorothy is consciously exercising some kind of parental control over Joyce. That is not a healthy read of their dynamic and I won’t respond to it.
I think it’s a possibly accurate read of an unhealthy dynamic, how’s that?
That’s just a word game and I’m genuinely irritated with you, StClair. No. Dorothy does not, full emphasis, does not exercise knowing parental control over Joyce. If I admit to there being a maternal quality to their interactions, that does not magically make Dorothy into Joyce’s wicked stepmother and I will not pretend it does.
Like. That’s just infantilization of Joyce with extra steps, and the extra steps are “I want Dorothy to be the villain of this storyline where there isn’t a villain.” No. I am done talking about this or considering it.
Ugh, never mind, I think I jumped down your throat personally when you’re not, a, a proponent of the idea, and that’s bullshit. Fuck. I’m sorry, StClair. I’m just… so tired of a certain kind of this discourse.
I feel like you’re reading something into the description of their relationship as “parental”/”maternal” that a lot of folks just don’t seem to be intending here.
Certainly *I* have been using it in a sense that’s essentially interchangeable with “mentor/mentee with a maternal flavor”.
I don’t know about you, but a lot of people have been using it to argue that it puts them in a power dynamic relationship that at least messes with Joyce’s ability to consent if it doesn’t take it away completely.
I mean, that ends up defining how you define “ability to consent”, doesn’t it?
When *I* have friends I look up to, it changes the internal calculus of whether or not I listen to their ideas when they conflict with my own.
To me, that’s a power differential, however minor. And almost by definition, power differentials affect consent.
I said it above already but I’ll say it again here since it’s being specifically addressed: power structures can be created in many ways. Trust and experience are very commonly a part of unhealthy power dynamics, which is exactly what’s going on with Joyce and Dorothy.
When you’re saying things like trust and experience or looking up to friends create power differentials and that affects the ability to consent, it sounds to me like you’re saying that’s inherently bad in a relationship? Which I have trouble believing is what you mean.
Trust can be exploited, but you do want it anyways, right?
Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Trust is of course good. The imbalance here is that Joyce trusts Dorothy—Dorothy does not trust Joyce. Joyce is inexperienced—Dorothy is experienced. This is the power imbalance which has created a pattern of unhealthy behavior between them. The power structure.
Dorothy believes she can “help” Joyce avoid what Dorothy believes to be bad decisions, because she does not trust Joyce to do so on her own. Joyce listens, because she trusts Dorothy’s experience. That’s the exploitation.
Dorothy does this because she believes it is her natural position to do so, as seen in todays strip. It’s control for the sake of being in control. In my opinion.
Although I should ALSO add I don’t think you, Sirksome, are subscribing to that theory and I don’t wish you to feel like I am. It’s just why I’m being stubborn about the whole Dorothy = maternal thing, y’know??
I don’t think it’s a conscious thing on Dorothy’s part either. But I still think its *there* and I think she definitely has control issues generally, needing to be in control of herself and situations. And I think that unfortunately, as much as she tries to go about it gently, is not good in combination with that dynamic.
I think this is fair, sure, and I subscribe to the idea that what’s going on is not cool or healthy or good. Dorothy is masking a giant well of trauma. She watched her best friend and mentee being literally taken away to be killed, and she knew in the moment that it was “her fault” (it wasn’t but lol trauma brain don’t care), and I’m sure that’s helping sweet fuck-all about this situation.
Where I run into problems is the idea that Dorothy is a villain or an abuser or a sex criminal.
Dorothy doesn’t have to be “a villain or an abuser or a sex criminal” to be doing consent really really badly or being excessively pushy, though.
Being the “villain” requires ill intent, and Dorothy clearly doesn’t have that. What she DOES seem to have, especially after today’s strip, is a need to be correct and in control, and that seems to CURRENTLY be manifesting as “I’m going to manage my friend’s life for her until it’s running to my specifications”.
Good intentions (sort of, since her ACTUAL intentions here are “prove Roz wrong” and “cockblock Joe” as much as “help Joyce for the sake of helping Joyce”), but wrong actions.
Rabbit said it better then I tried to say it through this entire debacle.
Dotty has major control issues that started before the comic even began, and an unhealthy mentor relationship with Joyce, and *that* made everything that happened in the laundry super creepy crawly.
That’s where my “consent” issue sprang up, because I dead-ass believe Dotty has that handle on Joyce, *but is unaware she has it,* so she thinks just asking “Hey we good?” is good enough.
Because I think Dotty is incredibly sheltered when it comes to the kind of mental abuse Joyce has had to deal with from her mom and her community.
Monkey brain just doesn’t break out of the programming of “There is one leader, just follow and everything will be cool even if it feels wrong in the moment”just because you’ve had the epiphany the leader you were given was terrible/nonexistent.
I’ll tack on here as an autistic afab who heavily relates to Joyce’s experience:
Saying she has a lot of conditioning that may lead her not to explicitly question Dorothy, who has shown herself time and time again to be considerate, even if she takes it too far/in ways people don’t really… need? A lot of the time.
On top of this, her being autistic does leave her more vulnerable to being taking advantage of – *EVEN ACCIDENTALLY.* I’m not babyfying or infantilizing her by saying this. I got so burnt out seeing people claiming that Joyce potentially feeling pressured as ‘completely taking away her agency’ and ‘infantilizing the autistic girl’
Because Joyce was a trusting and naiive girl BEFORE we got the information she is autistic. Just because she’s had some personal epiphanies doesn’t mean she’s now able to immediately break years of brainwashing and trauma from a literal cult. Dorothy is a perceived safe, somewhat authority figure in her friend group. And for the most part she is! She is just woefully unaware of her effect on Joyce.
I’m saying this as an autistic afab who very often looks to my perceived more ‘together’ and intelligent friends for advice and suggestion, and I can recount multiple times I implicitly trusted someone despite being deeply uncomfortable because I truly believe they were acting altruistically/doing what was best for me. And I behaved very similarly to Joyce in this last arc.
Dotty *is* incredibly sheltered. All of her seeming experiences are mostly informed and book-based. Hence why she faced difficulty against Roz, who was supposedly good with people. She relies on her reasoning and logic too much. Billie vouching for her came with her earnestness. (which she seems to suppress in favor of rational thinking.)
Where Roz tries to seem superior and ‘worldlier’ than everyone, Dotty wants to express her value via her intelligence, but it only goes so far when you’re soley going off book smarts.
And I know in the past she’s been kind of a shitty friend to Joyce at times, explicitly steamrolling her desires in favor of things she think Joyce needs to ‘fix’ in various ways. I don’t think she’s a bad person.
I do think she’s in way over her head, and doesn’t tend to think deeper than the surface level. She doesn’t really delve into the emotional aspects of behavior, either. And as a result doesn’t tend to reflect on her OWN feelings much beyond how they initially present themselves. Which I think is why she feels so opaque to a lot of us vis a vis internal thoughts.
Thanks, this is clearly put and interesting. Food for thought, nom.
(@Rabbit)
@Rabbit: Dang, that really is good food for thought and insightful, thank you very much for sharing.
I’ve been wanting to point out that any parent/child axis is not all on Dorothy. Joyce sometimes acts like the daughter, unprompted.
I wonder if Joyce sees in Dorothy something more like the mom she wishes she had.
This is a good point. Their relationship has an aspect of codependency. As much as Joyce is learning and growing, she was raised in a cult and brainwashed to obey authority figures her whole life. Dorothy is clearly someone she trusts and views as an authority figure.
I was thinking of it more as having an aspect of “found family,” but whatever.
*materializes from the wall*
Don’t forget this doozy of a confrontation!
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/sporadically/
I’ll take a stab ^^ Long comment incoming, this is something I’ve been thinking about all through the Joeyce stuff lately and especially this mini-arc. Hopefully it’s coherent, I probably should have typed it in Word or notepad or somewhere easier to read than the comment box and pasted it in, but oh well!
tl;dr is I think Dorothy is feeling jealous of her relationship with Joyce, which seems to be under threat, and is cracking under the weight of the pressure she puts herself under and looking for something she can fix.
I think Dorothy is spiralling hard right now. We’ve seen cracks in the facade of her control prior to these events, especially since the kidnapping but they were present before as well. Dropping grades, uncertainty and regret around her relationship with Walky, feeling conflicted about Yale, etc. She’s caught between her own demands for her perfection and just, the things she actually wants in the present moment.
Following on from that interaction with Walky, I think she’s feeling sexually frustrated, as well as more generally frustrated at her always helpful, always perfect persona and always putting others first, and like by finding that hard to maintain she’s failing her own standards.
Then you add in the arcs with Joyce’s glasses and meds and the subsequent conflicts with Billie and Roz that just reinforced for her that she has to fix all of Joyce’s problems for her and be the perfect friend, and prove to herself and everyone else that she can take care of everything.
And of course, we can’t ignore the ongoing drama of the SS Joeyce. I think there’s a really strong dose of unconscious jealousy in her feelings there. Sure, she rationalises it as Joe not being good enough for Joyce (a not-unreasonable belief given what she knows of him), and her just wanting to protect her friend from a shameless user, but I’d say there’s been plenty in her behaviour to suggest that she sees him as a threat to her relationship with Joyce. I’m not saying she has an unrequited crush on Joyce or anything (although I’m also not not saying that), I think Dorothy is currently on high alert for threats to their friendship, threats to Joyce, and things that could cause her to lose control. In contrast to Becky’s whole shtick earlier about not letting anyone get closer to Joyce than her and Dorothy brushing it off, I think Dorothy is starting to get competitive about being the best friend to Joyce, even if she doesn’t really realise that.
Basically, what all this adds up to, is Dorothy feeling this threatening loss of control, and looking for it where she can find it. That’s expressing itself as a need to solve all of Joyce’s problems for her, because her own feel too big. Then, you also have the jealousy leading to a need for closer bonding to Joyce and laying her claim to her. She’s not aware of any of this, and rationalises it to herself as trying to be a good friend and a problem-solver, because that’s just what she does, but it’s clear none of this was through-through at all. She wanted to show Roz she wasn’t a prude. She wanted to protect Joyce from Joe (and maybe to prove that she was the closest to Joyce?). She wanted a problem she felt like she could fix, and we know this is something she’s thought about before. She wanted to feel like she was in control and she could still solve all the problems. Hence all this mess.
And now, in the aftermath, she sees that her helpful impulses have just left her with another (more literal) mess to clean up for someone, and a recognition that she chose this. What I’m not really clear on is, is this a reaffirmation on her commitment to that role, or a realisation that she doesn’t have to be the perfect, has it all in control, cleans up your mess for you friend?
I agree with what you say and I’d like to add something as well.
I’m guessing that in High School Dorothy was a high achiever, probably because she is intelligent but also because she has a goal and is striving towards that goal.
In high school theres a whole mix of people, the strivers and the slackers, the middle of the road and all the rest but its easier to get to the top of a high school because you have a lot less people wanting to be at the top
Fast forward to college and now Dorothy has to deal with people just as intelligent, just as driven etc etc and shes now discovering that being top in high school doesn’t count for as much now that shes in college and in her first head to head election (so to speak) with Roz she got wrecked.
Dorothy has had to go from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in a big pond and shes been smacked in the face with the reality that she can have as good a grades as she can and go to the right colleges (which is in her control) but she might not have the required personal charisma (likeability) to succeed in politics.
So the personal enmity with Roz might run just that little bit deeper
Oh, that’s a great point about the election with Roz, I’d totally forgotten about that! Yes, that definitely stung and would be good extra motivation to try to get a ‘win’ here.
I agree with all of this. And I especially like the point about Dorothy solving other people’s problems because she can’t figure out how to solve her own.
I wish I could upvote comments here just so I could upvote this one.
I think we’re supposed to see that Dorothy doesn’t understand what’s going on with her either.
She’s clearly unsatisfied with the role she’s created for herself. But she doesn’t appear to have any idea what to do about that, probably because she’s identified with that role for so long.
I think it will take a great deal more discomfort before she finally decides to change something. And there’s no telling what that change will be, or if it will help with her issues.
It could mean she’s looking back over the incident and wondering, “how did I think this was smart?”
I think she’s just having a nervous break down
Y’all really thought *Dorothy* didn’t have a plan for disinfecting, huh? Plans are her entire thing, she’s like a slightly less problematic Elizabeth Warren
Lmao that’s the best political dunk on Dotty I’ve ever read somehow, holy shit. Please accept these 1,000,000 quatloos.
Sometimes the work is thankless not because it isn’t appreciated but because it was unnecessary.
Well said
Lol, just recite the technocrat’s mantra and everything will be all right.
I couldn’t place the hovertext and I was CONVINCED it was a line from a recent Disney song.
given the chapter name/current title i would’ve thought the killers song would’ve been on ppl’s mind in the forefront tho iwill admit outside of that one song i never rly sought out their otehrs backi n theday
My prediction is that this is going to backfire. I’m guessing… Joyce will throw herself at Joe who rejects her because she doesn’t love him, and he tells her that her first time should be with somebody she loves. So, who does Joyce love? Hmmmm…. (looking at Dorothy)
Well, she’s convinced me.
Huh, the thanks comment and the weird attitude is starting to make sense. Dorothy thinks of it as her responsibility to “help” her friends with their “issues.” And from that place, she’s only seeing Joyce’s recent pushback as Joyce rejecting her help, not a sign of Joyce actually growing. She feels resentful that people aren’t happy with how she’s trying to take care of them, so she’s acting from that resentment, not realizing that she’s the one who appointed herself that job and help nobody asked for often isn’t the right kind of help.
Feels like a familiar relationship dynamic tbh, one that hurts a lot and helps no one (personal experience, y’know) and I hope she can pull her head out of her ass and get some help herself.
Ugh this dynamic is painfully familiar to me, too. No, (ex-?) friend, it’s not reasonable to resent me for not taking your help I never asked for. Why is it so hard to accept that I don’t need you to fix anything for me, I just want to exist together and mutually enjoy one another’s company. It’s also not reasonable to resent me for moving in directions in my life that were not personally orchestrated/facilitated/approved of in advance by you.
Frustrating.
*plays Things I Do For You by The Jacksons, followed by Don’t You Worry Bout A Thing by Incognito*
Whose eyes need to be opened [up] and what are they eager for?
You know Dorothy, you could try letting other people solve their own issues. Just a thought, maybe let them have that choice instead of assuming you need to solve their problems for them.
She’s trying to fix other people because she doesn’t know how to fix her own issues and burying herself in other people’s emotional labor makes her feel a.) useful and b.) not broken in some way she can’t fully diagnose let alone address.
Or at least that’s my read. Feels familiar. But also maybe she’s just horny for Joyce. Could be both!
feels like that’s something she should talk to her therapist with, assuming she gets better advice than that one time ppl were saying was terrible, but at this point she does act more like a ‘personal assistant’ than future president. (tho every president should prolly have a life coach/personal therapist on hand lol)
She needs to join The Booster Club”.
https://imgur.com/a/DOtWi5k (NSFW)
Sequel to yesterday
Oh, lordy. Guess he liked the dress.
lol nice, i’m surprised she’d even be able to stand but i wouldn’t know haha
Her hair… her eyes… her everything 😳
Yup a yup I’m gay. Thanks Yoto.
This is… so good. Do you have an art account at all?
Yotomoe1 on twitter but I don’t post my DOA art there.
oh my, I believe the fancy term for this is ~Deshabille~
welp. it’s only a matter of time now before dorothy inevitably erupts and unleashes her crazy ex-girlfriend “after everything i’ve done for you” moment on joyce.
Are we betting on when that’s going to happen?
When she walks in on Joyce assertively smooching Joe (instead of him smooching her) in the hallway.
It’s mostly headcanon/partially cuz of itswalky but I imagine Joyce being an aggressive kisser. Like a Kanker Sister.
Full on Kobedon while wearing her milk jug shoes.
…i need someone to animate this
I’ve thought of the worst thing that could possibly happen, and I hope I’m wrong.
well to others, the ‘worst’ thing of her banging joe would be great to those who ship them
tho, imagine if she someone hooked up with faz randomly appearing, that’d be much worselol
Are y’all sure she didn’t reject her prestigious university?
If she reminds herself of something being her choice, it’s starting to feel like a bad choice.
I think that’s the situation. She declined admission to Yale, out of some misguided sense of duty to Joyce and her friends here.
I’m thinking it came during the emotional aftermath of Toedad, and she couldn’t bring herself to go then, because “Everyone needs her here” but is kicking herself for not going in the present, because everyone she thought “needed” her, are changing their relationships with her.
Walky’s moved on, Joyce is quickly learning to move past her many, many traumas, Billie and Roz have evolved past her as a “foe.”
Amber’s… Amber.
That’s the implication I’ve been worried about since the bit where she was like “you have no idea how much I–” in response to Joyce saying something about how Dorothy didn’t care a little while ago. Reeeeally hoping that doesn’t turn into a well of resentment.
Ohhh that would be interesting
And keep her in the story
She’s obviously not going to Yale *this* semester, and iirc Willis doesn’t have plans to continue the comic into their next year. They’re only barely starting second semester now, so Dorothy still has years of comic time left even if she goes to Yale at the earliest possible opportunity.
This is the start of Dorothy’s Joker arc
as far as i know, the joker doesn’t self sacrifice. unless you mean she’s being ‘posessive’ of joyce like harley lol
What about solving your own issues, Dorothy? Would it be too glamorous or what?
even someone as highly intelligent and emotionally tuned to other ppl’s problems might not realize their own flaws
I still don’t understand the meaning of the phrase “Turning saints into the sea”. And I already searched Google and made the exhausting job of listening to this song.
Gonna guess it’s about how saints are supposed to be these bright, shining beacons of pureness, and the sea is a fathomless void of darkness.
So he’s turned this image of a woman he’s held as a Saint, and because she’s “Wronged him” she’s not really a saint at all, but a cold, opaque, void that sucked him in.
Kind of spitballing it entirely but I think it holds up.
That or there’s something historical about people throwing saint statues into the sea for whatever reason? hell if I know.
We use statues because now it’s illegal to use real people.
Only if we get caught, and let’s face it, it’s dark by the ocean at night. Lots of opportunities to not get noticed.
I don’t know if this costume existed, but it make me remember a tradition in some old nations in Africa, like Mane people, that they lash their idols if they lose a battle, because they are warriors.
These people may have gave origin to Omoloko, an african religion, pretty similar to brazilian Candomble, or Umbanda.
Good question! I haven’t heard the song but yeah, i just vaguely assumed something biblical.
Interesting tidbit about the Omoloko religion, i know so little about brazil but the transmutations and creolization of african traditions, together with the indigenous and colonizing influences in your country must be fascinating to study??
Brandon Flowers is a Mormon so perhaps it’s something from LDS scripture? Maybe Agatha would know.
What’s with Dorothy’s fascination for urination?
She just thinks it’s neat, okay?
It’s not like it was just anyone’s urination.
It helps to clear the urinary tract of anything that might have gotten pushed in. UTIs are no fun, yo.
except in this case nothing might have gotten pushed in because Joyce didn’t use her fingers or a toy
Still a good habit to form
Dorothy offered to leave the room and guard the door so Joyce could use her fingers. I wouldn’t blame someone for assuming that Joyce did use her fingers, since she eventually took Dorothy up on the request.
Sounding a little like Jennifer. Probably not a great sign.
Yeah. Got the highly circuitous way of saying “no homo” and everything XD
She will be the best president of USA (or of the “United Earth”, by the time she becomes 40 in this timeline :P)
Hm, that’s somehow both terrifying and wildly optimistic.
My money’s on a United States of the Eastern Seaboard Metropolitan Area, stuck in an endless war with the rest of the continent while red state after red state declares independence.
I can see her being a cosy knitting farm mum by age 30.
Huh, usually the resulting clarity affects the One Who Nuts…
Joyce came so hard, Dorothy caught a contact O?
Lmao; upvote
Dorothy, HONEY, I’m begging to look up why peeing helps prevent an UTI and you’ll see that doing it after riding the dryer is unnecessary.
Simplicity is necessary for building a habit. If a habit is broad enough to protect you, that it occasionally means doing something cheap that wasn’t strictly necessary but is not harmful, is okay. The point is learning to associate the two actions so you don’t think about it (and thus don’t sometimes think yourself out of doing something you should have done).
It’s implied Joyce finished using her hand
Behold the Power of the Female Orgasm: it causes Dorothy to be briefly transported into the vacuum of space in Frames 3 and 5.
Dorothy can breathe in space.
Was this somehow Yale/president related the whole time?
That’s the sense I’m getting and I’m interested to see how it ties in
OH NO IT’S THIIIIS.
I TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOMETHING NO ONE ASKED ME TO AND NOBODY NEEDED ME TO AND HONESTLY NO ONE WANTED ME TO AND WHEN I’M NOT APPRECIATED FOR THE WORK I DID EXPLICITLY TO BE APPRECIATED I WILL BECOME RESENTFUL AND SHITTY.
HARHARHAR.
DONT DECIDE TO DO SOMETHING ON YOUR OWN AND THEN THINK YOU’RE OWED FOR THE THING YOU DECIDED TO DO YOUR OWN DAMN SELF.
Is this a trigger for you? Hopefully Dotty stops before she becomes like the one who taught you what’s coming next.
I think you’re taking a shitpost a bit too seriously
Given the title text, I have to ask “haven’t you people ever heard of closing the goddamn door? No?”
Ha! I wonder if Willis was hoping someone would post the lyric. 🙂
Tick-ing, tiiiiiime booooooooooooomb.
Somehow, replaying this arc over and over would be a brutal way to go for Groundhog Day…
Next to the last major-major event we’ve had— play me away, Sonny and Cher!! I got you, babe… 🎵
RIP Fred la Marmotte 😭😭😭
May they have the happiest adventures in the Final Unknown.
*plays “Miracle Tears” by Shinji Miyazaki on hacked muzak*
Dorothy, I remember feeling basically like this back in the day, and so I’ll do the same thing for you that a good friend did for me in college:
“Get fucked. When we want your help, and we often do, we’ll ask for it, but you don’t get to decide when other people have to be grateful.”
Dorothy’s going to be both a lot happier AND a lot more tolerable when she lets go of this and just takes care of her own stuff..
Ironically if Dorothy got fucked shed probably make better decisions. This was half spurred on by her whole thing with walky
Big Z, I love that quote. I gotta remember that.
I appreciate this in this particular case, but I do think there are cases where it’s not unreasonable to ask people to be grateful for doing things without being asked like if one person is doing a disproportionate amount of whatever responsibility (or a big responsibility that’s a ton of work) or if one person takes on the stuff they know other people don’t want to do but needs to be done. Wanting recognition and/or appreciation for work you do, whether it’s asked for or not, is normal. The problem is Dorothy has a habit of taking over people’s problems to avoid her own and her solutions are….questionable in their helpfulness sometimes.
Dorothy doesn’t seem to be ok. Like… at all.
This ain’t gonna resolve itself in just one story arc, is it.
you aren’t asking a question, are you.
Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life… I think Dorothy should go with Joyce, it’s clear she wants to follow her (no idea why, but she wants) but she remains at the laundry because of her sense of responsibility.
Wouldn’t it be lovely if somebody else would do the tedious work for you…
Ok, guys guys guys. Remember that episode of Farscape where Chiana’s brother dies, and she kind of loses it and joins a death cult and wants to jump into a magic well that sometimes kills people and sometimes doesn’t? And Chrichton thinks he has to save her and comes up with increasingly drastic measures to try and stop her, but eventually he realizes he can’t stop her and she jumps in the well and everything turns out ok?
This is basically like that.
Genuinely waiting for the episode during Sophomore year where Dotty becomes an angry hermit for all of 3-5 weeks then gives up and rejoins the cast. It should only take 2 years in comics to sort it out.
really expected this whole enterprise to got a lot worse! guess dotty knew what she was doing the whole time.
Hmm, Dorothy wouldn’t suddenly second guessing her decisions if she would take more time to think.
Well you ARE aspiring to be a politician, Dotty. That’s kinda what they purport to do.