Speaking as a dude who uses laundromats regularly, I think they were both seated on washing machines. The dryers are the things with the big glass portholes stacked two-high behind Dorothy in the final panel.
The washers at my local laundromats also have glass fronts. I presume this is mostly so you can tell at a glance which ones are occupied. There isn’t enough detail to not take Dorothy at her word, I think. But I do see what you mean.
Those are older Maytag machines, and they absolutely did make them with solid doors. They actually made both washers and dryers that way.
Source: My parents had them in the early ’90s, but also the coin-op laundry down the street from my apartment in the late ’90s had Maytag washers with solid doors. I think there were also coin-op dryers made the same way, but I’m not 100% certain on that, most coin-op dryers even then were double stack with clear doors.
Laundromats use those but apartments and dorms with communal washers and dryers often use individual units.
IRL to comic art changes aside, these dryers look identical to the ones in my apartment building.
Try lots of sympathy for Joyce. She’s trying to move past the indoctrination she received growing up, and has taken some strong first steps, but it can be difficult to let go of the irrational pieces embedded in our brains from such an environment. She can’t just allow herself to masturbate like a healthy person, but she still wants that release and the resulting endorphins. “It’s ok to give yourself an orgasm as long as it’s accidental” is actually kind of a depressing thing to hear. Dorothy is helping Joyce grow into a healthier person here.
Apparently some Humans made a song about having some……. happy time between midday & nighttime, maybe that would be a song you could use… https://youtu.be/wu1UXCdyNo0
Yeah, looking at it, you can tell it’s the frame and the place where there’d normally be the. Thingamajigger. The bit where the door latches. It’s just blank, thus not a case where you could close the door.
. . . wait nvm. I just flipped through strips back to October to find another image of a doorframe that was at the correct angle and didn’t have someone standing in the way and it doesn’t look like that’s a detail that is normally included in the art, so any analysis of the doorframe here would be inconclusive.
That reminds me of the warnings on products: “This is not a toy.” Anything can be a toy if you play with it. What they mean to say is it should not be used as a toy. If a person wants to act as a door, who are we to stop them? It may not be your intended function, but go for it.
In the event of a fire, closing the door would help to contain things. Not a long-term solution, of course, but hold back the smoke and flames long enough that the fire department has a few more minutes to respond.
Depending on the door it can be much more than a few minutes. A few years back I called the firedepartment because i heard the firealarm in the apartment underneath me. Once the firemen were there and they discussed with the lady’s social worker and me about what had happened (not the first time she had fallen asleep with the oven started) i expressed concern about how quickly a fire can spread from apartment to apartment mostly because i would need to get my cats in the carriers. And the fireman told me, the second front door in our apartments, is built to withhold a fire for up to an hour to stop it from spreading to the rest of the building.
The problem is any door present on that room is going to present a problem to anyone trying to bring laundry through the “pull” side, so best to just have no door. Laundry rooms are usually doorless.
A public-use laundry room should definitely have a fire-rated door that opens out. If it’s desirable for it to stay open, it should be a magnetic latch automatic fire door. It should also have a photoelectric (not ionizing) smoke detector and/or heat detector, and sprinklers.
A laundry room is the 2nd most likely room in any building for a fire to start, the kitchen being the most likely.
I was gonna make a joke about winning one over on Becky secretly being Dorothy’s motivation for this whole escapade, but then it hit me: she’s doing it to win one over Joe.
This might not be Joyce’s actual first orgasm. Yesterday she said she thinks she’s “made it before” from just rubbing her thighs together for a long time.
I think I’d rather not know what she was getting off to, that first time (unless it would be funny, I guess).
watch as the next sequence of events is basically her trying to keep joe as far away from her til she’s ‘recovered’ (tho i imagine hard to do w/ her own schedule and becky/dina and joe having a class with joyce too lol)
Or the next sequence contains Dotty hearing Joyce call out her name at the moment of climax, and realising that Joyce has a huuuuuuuge crush on her (which I imagine is a large part of why Joyce let herself be railroaded into this session of “tension relief” in the first place! 😀
For science, would you share if IMHO means to you “in my humble opinion” or “in my honest opinion”?
I learned it as humble and always interpreted that way; then I saw some internet essay about how many people think the h means honest, which changes the whole meaning. Now I don’t know what to think when I see it.
Yeah you two lost me and I’m reading the end of Taffy’s as”grabmybongoytits” which… If I was trying to share my opinion with somebody and they grabbed me there and called me/them bongoy (wondering if that will get through the censors or not incidentally) I would be unamused.
I do have a migraine as a contributing factor but often do so 🤷🏻♀️
In the first D&D campaign I joined as a player, our Barbarian’s name was Captain Bongo Tits, and he was a vampire pirate (a vampirate, if you will (and you will)) who used the anchor from his ship as a weapon By the end of the campaign, he’d enchanted it with at least half a dozen runes that would explode with different elemental powers, so even a crappy attack would net him at least 20 damage. He also managed to survive an “Everyone dies in a pocket dimension” ending by resurrecting in his coffin afterward and became a recurring ally in the sequel. He also kept getting new titles, and I think the last time I checked he was something like Arch-Count Commander Admiral General Bongo Tits, Sr. or something equally lengthy.
(in case anyone thinks sdrainbow is being gross and isn’t familiar with the game, in FF14, you can play as various iconic classes from Final Fantasy, and each class gets a 3-letter abbreviation in the game. One of them is Black Mage, which gets BLM.)
Or maybe you English people should start writing full sentences! >:(
Joking aside, as a foreigner it’s always been very hard to “decode” this stuff. Maybe it’s got to do with my brain (I can almost feel the translation flow jump gears when I encounter these written shortcuts) more than it has to do with my native language (I feel like abreviation of phrases started to become more regular around my teenage years, after text messages anf celphones became a thing, and I feel like the number wasn’t nearly as prominent in English, but I’m kinda old for “language standards” and I could be wrong.)
Nowadays you can just google them, I suppose, and get the meaning of these little encriptions. But before that, being an English learner and encountering “imo” “lol” “mvm” “tbf” was very hard, and you could only relly on the other person to know what they meant. And since this stuff comes from “cultural” preset phrases you use rather than logical relationships/progression, it’s very easy to mess up something.
(Long story short, I also thought it was “honest”, not “humble” xD)
I’ve never seen “IMNSHO” in my life, also, no, it’s really not the same as thinking LOL means “lots of love.” You can figure out that “lots of love” doesn’t make sense in a lot of contexts – there is literally no way to distinguish between “humble” and “honest” from context, because in practice it doesn’t actually change the meaning or usage of the phrase.
It’s honest and the dictionary is wrong for saying it humble
In my humble opinion is a stupid phrase
How can an opinion be humble? You dont have to ascribe traits to your opinion just say the opinion.
…yes i did rewatched Bojack Horemans The Telescope last night ..
Yep, concur. I maintain that Dorothy’s actions throughout the storyline have been the risk equivalent of “smoking at a gas station”, and maxim 43* continues to apply.
* (“If it’s stupid and it works, it’s still stupid and you’re lucky.”)
Oh so now she can listen to “no” when Joyce isn’t visibly uncomfortable but she can’t notice Joyce is visibly uncomfortable when Joyce is just stammering and running on autopilot due to being intimidated. Ok.
… Had to go back and check, but Joyce never actually said “no” in this entire sequence. (Well, the word came out of her mouth in other contexts, but not related to this.) Joyce was still clearly uncomfortable and that’s not okay… but there was never an explicit “no” for Dorothy to listen to.
You said the keyword. She was uncomfortable and Dorothy was being extremely forceful, declaring she WILL teach Joyce to masturbate soon after Joyce yelled at everyone to leave the sex topic alone.
Yes. Consent isn’t “they didn’t say no”. Whatever comes next, Dorothy has abused Joyce’s friendship and should be considered an abuser. Not going to be posting for a while because of reasons not unrelated to this strip.
Remember when Joyce asked Dorothy if she was /allowed to leave/ if she calls it stupid?
Like, she didn’t even end up leaving. The question was not for the purpose of punctuating her leaving.l It was a genuine question of what kind of situation she was in.
This, uh, this is quite a…Hm. I guess I should ask, are you really meaning to say that Joyce doesn’t get to decide what is and what isn’t abuse re: her own body?
It seems like people are bound and determined to paint this as some kind of molestation by a manipulative creep, enacted upon a helpless victim who can’t stand up for herself if she feels violated. That’s A read, I suppose.
Here’s the thing though. She DID stand up for herself. She loudly and openly declared she wanted the sex topic and especially the topic of her and Joe to be left alone.
Dorothy just didn’t care, cos her unresolved things with Walky are more important for her.
Is it though? Dorothy said openly that her declaring she will teach Joyce to masturbate is specifically cos “you are only thinging of even the distant possibility of dating Joe of whom I do not approve cos you are horny” which was her exact rationate in the leadup to Joyce yelling at them barely half an hour before.
I never said it didn’t. Only that that was Dotty’s pov in that fight and she continued with that same pov when she started ordering Joyce around and then revealed it’s because it is the sacred duty of the Dotty to make Joyce masturbate, Joyce’s hangups be damned. And it’s really weird people keep saying Joyce’s hangups are only cos of her upbringing brainwashing her.
This is the same as a boyfriend nagging a girlfriend to take any next step in their relationship and the girl saying yes just to get the nagging to stop.
Joyce could be grinning ear to ear, jumping for joy, saying “YES!” at the top of her lungs the entire time, and I don’t think it would change a goddamn thing. People would still be saying the exact same shit.
Enthusiastic consent to anything sexual with Dorothy isn’t really enthusiastic consent because of Dorothy’s mind powers, Taffy. Gosh, I thought you’d understand that.
Or the difference between “I am uncomfortable with the abstract ideas about sex and purity I have built up in my head” and “I am uncomfortable with what you’re doing to me”.
How do you know the difference between having uncomfortable fantasies about sex and having uncomfortable sex, without having sex? I guess you can’t, without first being comfortable with exploring those fantasies on your own at least.
January 23, 2023, Dorothy literally begins to tell Joyce if she isn’t comfortable with it, they don’t have to, but is fully cut off by Joyce saying no, it’s fine.
But, hey, Dorothy could have been about to say anything, I suppose.
I’m begging you, BEGGING you, to stop understanding the comic and start making up reasons for this to be a felony. Please. My son is dying and it’s his one wish.
Dorothy only said that so that she could seal a marriage contract with Hank that legally binds Joyce to her as her child and allows her to force Joyce into a baby outfit and burp her while good Americans look on helplessly. Then she will pour pink Zinfandel down Hank’s peepee while he watches, also helpless.
How does this work, legally? Read the uhhhhhhh Constitution. Yeah. It’s in there.
Do you mean White Zinfandel, which is pink in colour, or do you know of some special variant designed to be used in exactly that way… that’s maybe turquoise in colour?
You’re telling me you didn’t see the secret strip that only exists during the Dark Hour and explains everything? UGH. NEWBIES. Fine, here’s what happened in it: Dorothy told Joyce “I’m your mom, Joyce. I’m your literal mother now. I’m going to marry your dad and adopt you. You have to do what I say, because I’m your dad’s wife.” And Joyce said “no, I don’t want that”, and then Dorothy shot mind lasers into her eyes and said “I COMMAND THIS VESSEL NOW IN THE NAME OF THE THOUSAND-FACED MOON! GORGO! MORMO! LOOK FAVORABLY ON OUR SACRIFICES”, and Joyce went “yessss motherrrr, we exist to obey” and then they were in the hallway. See? Very simple.
Still don’t quite like this whole situation, mostly at this point shifted to. . .hey other people use those machines and it’s a very very public place, but. . .eh. I see no point of getting heated over it until the eventual climax after the fact when Dorothy makes another pointed remark about Joe or what have you.
Here sexy speech bubbles are the color of dried blood followed by hearts and severed plant genitals. I don’t know exactly what that means, but my guess is Joe (and Dorothy?) are racing to be the first one into the minefield.
Joe knows the code. He absolutely knows that someone standing watch outside the laundry room means shenanigans are afoot and he should come back in an hour.
The post-nut clarity Dorothy wants: Oh! Whew! No more Joe thoughts lmao. So silly to even consider.
The post-nut clarity Dorothy will get: Ooh, I wonder if Joe would ever make out with a dude while I watched. …Probably not Ethan or Jacob. Sadly. :< …Maybe Hat Boy!
See, if Dorothy was actually a maniacal, villainous schemer she would’ve asked Roz to encourage Joyce to go bang Joe, because I can’t think of anything that would kill Joyce’s interest quicker than that.
Yes…”best friends”. I guess it’s not gay to hold hands with your bestie as she tries to get off, at your encouragement, as long as you stop and leave right at the moment she’s about to climax. This is just Dorothy doing what any friend would do…Yup.
Not necessarily. If you squirt, yes, and if not maybe like, a damp patch that probably wouldn’t go through a second layer of clothes (were she wearing one) at most. Sometimes all the lubrication, despite increasing, stays internal
Yeah, I’m actually weirdly proud of her? For being brave? That shame is so deeply ingrained, but she’s pushing against it with help from a friend. She’s gonna be fine.
Ngl, this whole arc has been kinda’ hitting some weird vibes, and this one just tops them all.
It’s been an intensely uncomfortable ride, and certainly not of the good kind of uncomfortable, and doesn’t really seem true-to-character for either of them.
But it is possible for authors to write characters, even ones loosely based on their own experiences, who change in unsatisfying ways. The problem isn’t necessarily with what they change into, but how effectively the emotional/logical reasons are conveyed to the audience.
The time skip was a way to reintroduce the energy of early DoA – even if you were aware of the characters already, many had undergone changes, and sussing out specifics of the characters consumed the first few books. It was very reveal-heavy, and only later started really mixing and matching the characters after we had fully established the angels and demons of these new versions of the characters. I think this is supposed to be a surprising and intriguing situation, but the surprise and confusion is obviously resulting in a bad flavor for some, even if I’m really enjoying how off-kilter it’s put me.
I’m flabbergasted at how the comment section has been reacting to this storyline. My university social circle was pretty tame, and this would have maybe rated a 3/10 on our scale of wacky hijinks. Sexual experimentation is one of the hallmarks of young adulthood, and this is pretty dang mild.
Readers also decide what falls within their suspension of disbelief.
I find it hard to believe these are the same characters acting in ways that are coherent to how they’ve been portrayed in the past.
It’s seemed pretty plausible to me. Dorothy thinks Joe is a terrible match for Joyce, and after verbal discouragement has failed to steer them away from each other, Dorothy is trying something more drastic: alleviate Joyce’s unmet physical needs so she doesn’t need Joe as an outlet for them, and could gain Post-Nut Clarity besides. (This seems likely to backfire, really…)
Joyce is on board because she has nigh-complete trust in Dorothy, as they are best friends, and I’m not sure she’s pieced together yet that Dorothy IS trying to steer her away from Joe (Dorothy is cagey about it because saying it out loud is a line she dares not cross). But Joyce’s upbringing has left a lot of sex-negative debris all over her psyche, so even as she’s trying to shed it, she’s got imaginary rules for how she is and is not forbidden to orgasm (“can’t use fingers, must be an accident according to certain criteria, must not count as Touching Oneself”)
I think at some point she needs to confront how vaguely the term “hussy” is even defined. If touching oneself makes one a hussy, would she dare to apply that label to Dorothy? To Becky? To every woman she has ever met, likely including her own mother?
I actually think that Joyce is going to be ready to bang Joe faster than he’s ready to bang her. Like, it’s not a lack of want, but he’s going to REALLY want to be sure she’s ready.
Then again, he did also scold Danny for not taking Billie’s interest as seriously as he should have given she wasn’t drunk or crying, or however he phrased it, so I don’t think his hesitation will be in a patronizing flavor.
What Joe did is completely dismiss the possibility that Danny didn’t want to. He demanded a justification–an acceptable excuse that would permit Danny not to have sex. And then he dismissed those reasons even though they also made perfect sense.
Remember that Billy outright told Danny she expected to regret it. Danny didn’t mention that part to Joe, but Joe also didn’t let him before declaring his “excuse” invalid.
A few commenters backing up Joe at the time as though he’d had a point was… odd.
I had the same thought. Dorothy thinks she won. All she did was show Joyce what she’s been missing. Also, the washing machine isn’t going to express its love for Joyce, and I think Joyce is likely to be heavily into romance. Sucks for Dorothy. Seems fair to me.
Now that this situation has concluded I’m a little Dorothy’s plan here. What’s the end game? I know she’s anti Joe dating, but I don’t know how this is actually going to work. Joyce is still going to be attracted to Joe. This was a lot to do just for an outcome that’s not guaranteed. If anything it only increases the likelihood Joyce will bang Joe now that she knows how an orgasm feels and Joe is her most easily available man. So what else did she get from this?
Dorothy got the endorphins from Helping, which she legitimately enjoys doing—not as a sinister method of control, just, like, it’s one of her love languages, she genuinely enjoys helping and teaching, and I imagine she also got the relief of watching a plan come together (hur hur) as it should, as someone who’s very goal-oriented. It’s like how she felt pretty great about her stats-based approach to becoming RA, back in the day.
Maybe Dorothy is thinking that if every time Joyce gets horny over Joe she can just take care of her physical needs and thats that
It sort of shows up Dorothys major flaw in that she is all about knowledge and book learning but has little practical experience (as show when she went up against Roz in trying for the DA position)
Dorothy thinks masturbation takes care of physical needs but, in my experience anyway, it merely makes you want more plus she has no idea about Joyces and Joes recent connection
Dorothy hasn’t bothered to find out because, in her mind, she already knows what the problem is (Joyce is horny) and how to fix it (talk her into public masturbation)
I think you nailed Dotty pretty spot on here. Add in sticking it to Roz on top of cock blocking Joe, and she’s only going to be sad about Walky moving on for like three days tops.
Where I think this combined read is correct: Dorothy does not have the practical knowledge or foresight she needs to make a smarter decision here (because she is 19)
Where I think this read is incorrect: that Dorothy is so goal oriented she’s like an android
Where I am completely lost: Gloating over her supremacy over Roz and Joe will make her forget she was ever sad about Walky somehow
Yeah, I don’t think that it’s related, really. She wasn’t no longer sad about him due to the Yale acceptance, she was still upset, and would be here, too.
Though it hasn’t really come up lately, it’s more that Dorothy wants to be so goal oriented she’s like an android, but she keep sabotaging herself with things like boyfriends.
I sincerely, sincerely, want everyone who feels squicked, creeped, or grossed out on behalf of Joyce to consider if it is themselves who are feeling boundaries stepped on. It’s ok to feel however one feels about it. I’m just wondering if anyone is projecting their feelings onto Joyce without realizing it.
I think that realizing it, if that is indeed the case, is a lot better because they can step away and do self-care, reflect on themselves and what they are comfortable with seeing. If not, it’s hard to grapple with a comic we have no way of changing. And I think less suffering is good, probably?
Just a thought. I hope it helps at least one person. Somtimes untangling my feelings helps me calm myself, in a number of situations.
I’m glad someone said this. The constant infantilizing of joyce in the comment section and acting as if she is incapable of having any agency of her own and is just a nonstop victim has really been bothering me and I’ve been avoiding the comments because of it.
Ultimately when we read fiction, we all bring parts of ourselves to it and everyone is going to get a different read based on their background. I get the impression that some commenters have some complex issues related to intimacy and boundaries that they need to unpack. And while I probably can’t understand exactly where they are coming from, the read I’ve been getting from this is a very different one and a perspective I think some folks here could benefit from understanding.
People sometimes worry so much about “protecting” innocent-seeming/sheltered friends that they ironically end up doing the very thing they’re claiming to protect the person against (taking away their agency). I was a lot like Joyce when I was younger (minus the super religious upbringing). I was sheltered, socially awkward, and lacked the worldly experience of my friends. But often their attempts to “help” and “protect” would come off fairly condescending, and leave me feeling powerless, like I wasn’t allowed to decide for myself what I was and was not comfortable with because everyone around me kept insisting I needed to be protected.
Joyce is a fictional character so has no actual agency or boundaries or any of that, but the way people talk about this character gives me those same over-protective, controlling, “I know what’s best for you” vibes which is super ironic because it’s often while attempting to insist another character is doing that to her.
In general I get the impression some people are uncomfortable with Joyce as a character ever expressing or acting upon sexual desire, and see any action in that direction as somehow “wrong” or assume it must be a violation of boundaries even when she has been given an out and clearly chose not to take it.
One possibility is people seeing Joyce as childlike in her innocence and I really hope that’s not what’s going on here, but if it is, people really need to do some self-examination of why they see a sheltered autistic person as automatically incapable of having adult agency and adult feelings. I’ve been the sheltered ND adult who was infantilized and it’s a profoundly uncomfortable, and frankly dehumanizing feeling.
Or maybe this is because some people don’t understand the kind of shame joyce is dealing with…this isn’t a character who has zero interest in anything intimate and is genuinely drawing a line about what she wants to experience. This is a character who has been conditioned to believe she is wrong or shameful for having these feelings and wanting these experiences. It’s a different sort of discomfort and discomfort in that context does not always mean “I am uncomfortable with this situation because I feel my boundaries are being violated,” it can often mean, “I am uncomfortable with this situation because I never learned how to be comfortable in it, or was never taught that it was okay, and I’m battling my own internalized shame.” And the read I’ve been getting from Joyce during this is very much the latter.
Yeah Dorothy has at times pushed Joyce’s boundaries too far, but we literally just saw joyce put her foot down about that recently so we KNOW she is capable of telling Dorothy to back off if she’s really feeling uncomfortable.
Sometimes I really wish people would just…let the story play out, see what happens, see how the characters react, instead of projecting their own feelings and hang ups onto them and insisting every day that x character is abusing y character and y character lacks the ability to realize or admit it…only to have the storyline not go that direction at all and then people get upset when the personal version of the character they have crafted in their head isn’t actually how the character was supposed to be written and act like that is somehow Wrong.
I know fiction can evoke strong feelings, and people seem to have a LOT of them about this comic, but if you’re at the point where a character’s arc is making you personally uncomfortable not because it’s clearly problematic, but because it isn’t following the narrative you’d come up with based on your own issues or history, it may be helpful to take a step back for a bit.
And I’m not saying this to be insulting. I get it. Sometimes we think we’re seeing ourself in something and it can be frustrating when that turns out to not be true because the connection we had to the story suddenly takes a sharp left turn, I’ve been there. But ultimately this isn’t our story, it’s someone else’s, to tell as they see fit.
This is a good point. What threw me off specifically was how it was framed around Dorothy’s intense dislike for Joe and her desire to suppress the budding romance between him and Joyce.
Like, Dorothy clearly feels Joe is a creep. Yet almost immediately after expressing this, we get an arc about her teaching Joyce something sexual in a rather intrusive way. It just comes off as hypocritical and super shady.
Re: the Joe thing I actually agree 100% that Dorothy’s behavior and opinions there are misguided. She lacks the omnipotent knowledge we as readers have and thinks she’s “protecting” Joyce, whereas we know Joe is being quite gentlemanly about this whole thing and genuinely likes Joyce and is frankly ceding all the power to her so far.
So I will be delighted if Dorothy thinks she has this problem “solved” but Joyce continues moving forward with Joe because Dorothy did not understand the situation properly at all.
My comments here aren’t necessarily a defense of Dorothy’s choices or actions here. And yeah this whole sequence was somewhat odd and I wasn’t sure what I thought of it. But the one thing I was sure of was that the insistence that Joyce has no agency in this scenario and is totally being manipulated or having her boundaries violated and is totally helpless, was really grating on my nerves.
I can’t make affirmative statements about any of the characters’ motives or future plans or whatever, obviously, but the infantilization was hitting a bit too close to home and I thought it might be helpful for people to see it from another perspective.
Well written Autogatos. I think a part of the problem is the strip-a-day drip-drap of a webcomic. If this was a traditional comic, people would read this and the next weeks pages in a few minutes, and the impact would be different.
Yeah agreed, in general it’s tough when stories unfold slowly! This is why I only binge-watch tv shows. XD I can’t handle the slow rationing out of plot and character development because things that are confusing or frustrating are just magnified so much when isolated as the “one story you’re getting this week”
It’s a bit easier with comics that’re daily but even those I often tend to save up and binge in large portions.
Yeah, for me it was the whole “She was roofied at a party not long ago, just told people to cut the sex crap, and then Dorothy decided she needed to get her rocks off” that weirded me out.
But hey, it looks like it’s ended well. I still think it was weird of Dorothy, and I’m not gonna be able to look at her the same way (though that’s mostly because of her motivations here I’ll admit), but this does look like a push that helped Joyce more than anything.
Exactly! Sometimes people like Joyce need someone to…give them permission. Multiple times, and gently guide them towards things they actually do want but are afraid to admit they want. And that is *not* the same thing as someone forcing a friend into a situation they really do not want and are not okay with.
And yeah it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference. But I think at this point Joyce has made it pretty clear which of these options this scenario was for her.
And it does get complicated and confusing…because repressed, sheltered people are often trying to/wishing they could break out of feeling like they need permission, wishing they could reclaim some agency, while at the same time still sometimes needing a supportive friend saying “it’s fine for you to want/do this” and nudging them there.
I think we saw this internal conflict in joyce pretty clearly when she blew up at Dorothy for being so up in her business over the birth control and then moments later asked Dorothy to sign her up for figure drawing. Yeah Dorothy is sometimes too controlling, but also Joyce is used to being controlled, and may at times feel more comfortable with someone else taking the lead. She’s still learning when she does and does not want to take control of a situation and still learning how and when to be her own advocate. And I know this is a difficult concept for many people to understand (and I get why) but in that confusing situation, sometimes having someone else take control of a situation you have been stressing over can be a relief.
Lol sorry for multi-replies, just scatterbrained tonight and keep thinking of more points to clarify.
An example that might be helpful for folks still not entirely getting this: (again s someone who has a lot of the same hang ups and lack of assertiveness as Joyce) I often ask my husband “permission” before buying things, even small things. Which sounds to an outside observer who lacks context like a toxic controlling scenario. Except I‘m doing it for *me*. He does not care whether or not I ask him before buying new socks or whatever, and definitely never asked me to do this, but as someone who grew up with weird guilt about buying things for myself, asking someone else for permission makes it more comfortable for me. (And over time I’ve been able to do it less and less as I’ve gotten older and more confident and worked on the sources of that guilt)
In that same sense, as someone who has a lot of learned guilt/shame about sex, Joyce may feel more comfortable with this because “it was Dorothy’s idea, she told me to.” When you’re judging *yourself* negatively for something you should not be judging yourself for, and would not judge someone else for, sometimes it helps to be able to deflect responsibility a bit onto someone else who you don’t judge for it. Because then it feels more like sound guidance from someone whose opinions you respect, rather than a “Wrong” choice you made for yourself.
Like I said it’s super complicated and doesn’t always make sense if you haven’t been in that mindset. But if you have, it’s ironically a weird way of learning ti claim your own agency, rather than having your agency taken away, if that makes any sense.
I’ll be perfectly frank, I’m projecting my feelings onto DOROTHY.
I was at college myself in the very first days where folks were STARTING to talk about moving from “no means no” to “yes means yes” models, and I have seen “yes means yes” combined with “eh, okay” and less-than-enthusiastic consent blow RIGHT the fuck up over a lot of lives, either with people who felt victimized after the fact or people (like me!) who felt like abusers after the fact even if it mostly turned out okay and the other party didn’t feel particularly victimized but didn’t enjoy the experience.
Personally, I STILL feel like Dorothy could easily have crawled out of her own ass long enough to do more than perfunctory checking in, but I also recognize that it’s not particularly in character for Dorothy to second-guess a plan in progress.
If this scenario somehow ends with Joyce and Dorothy joined in sapphic unity, rather than Joyce feeling free to pursue her Joe-related hunk fantasies, I will choose a truly unfortunate gravatar and wear it for a full three months in shame.
Oooh, that sounds like a forfeit! xD And if it ends with Joyce running back to Joe to “unite”, then I’ll choose my most unfortunate avatar and leave it that long. 😉
Do girls get Post-Nut Clarity? I feel like despite releasing Joyce’s pent-up needs, post-nut clarity might indeed bring her to a decision regarding whether to date Joe, to Dorothy’s bafflement.
I mean, like…Becky just had a really good talk with her about how experiences don’t make you impure or alter the core of who you are (one of her big hurdles re: sex)…Dorothy just kiiiinda offered the comfort and pleasure of a sex partner who’s willing to go at your pace and put your needs first (please don’t @ me with WELL ACKSHUALLY)…Joe made his interest known and made it clear he wanted to wait for her and respect her decision…
I assume any living entity that can “nut” is capable of post-that clarity. Not entirely sure how helpful it would be for, say, a moose though. Maybe they realize the whatever-meese-eat they’re eating kinda sucks and move on to a better batch of it.
Yeah no definitely. I’ve definitely had that moment of finishing, looking at the porn i was watching and thinking
…what the fuck is wrong with me?
It’s also just a lot easier to think clearly when you push horny out of the way
Damn, we got some new and innovate textbook augmentation at play. Dorothys handholding game is just THAT good. (everyday i half expect a slipshine announcement to drop)
And before that, there really wasn’t anything to see if anyone walked in. Maybe if someone quietly eavesdropped and peeked around the corner, they’d put it together, but just walking in to get laundry would fluster Joyce, but not make it clear what she was doing.
i’d imagine even with her keeping watch it’d still be better partially closed or so unless it needs to be all the way open in case joyce needs to call out to her lol
Dorothy knows she’s not going to be around next semester so she is trying to make sure everyone is going to be ok without her. That’s why she didn’t get back together with Walky, and fixed her up with Lucy instead. That’s why she’s been so pushy with Joyce; the clock is ticking.
Yeah, she’s been acting really weird and intense ever since she got diagnosed with Yale. I’m really eager to see her breaking point, if there even is one.
I’ve had the same thought. She’s getting ready to move on, so she’s determined to leave everyone better off than how she found them. Like a girl scout.
Cloth dryers are better than people!!
Joyce, don’t you think is true??
Yeah, people would roof you, and curse you and cheat you..
Everyone of them is bad except youuuu
(Dorothy hums in her head and smiles to herself)
Posts here with people concerned about door frames and characters making up complex plots of manipulation, and i’m more like: eyup, SOMEONE is gonna have to clean up the massive snail trail this little event is going to cause.
I’m also 1: not look at those damn public laundry machines the same way anymore and 2: in any opportunity that shows, say to some girl i’m friends with: “hey i think i saw you sitting on top of a dryer before, whyfor?” and observe her reaction.
Between this and the fact that there were a lot of folks coming out as fellow Sea Wolves in these threads, I am finding myself on the opposite side of the debate from a lot of folks I share fandoms with. =P
I want the comic where we find out Dorothy had already figured out all the best times to use the laundry room for this purpose, hence why she’s so cavalier about public discretion here. Even if that comic ends with Joe turning the corner to do his laundry.
I love the idea that this comments section is the content, but that’s not the kink. The kink is that the only thing strong enough to get past Joyce’s repression is the extreme sensation of realizing you are fictional character without any will of your own
Yeah but DOROTHY said that. To JOYCE. Considering their fucked up dynamic, it could be literally anything on that phone and Joyce wouldn’t know better. And if she suspects it’s not what Dorothy says, well, she trusts her carer enough to accept that she may be wrong.
They’re gonna walk in, see Joyce blushing furiously and looking around for no reason, maybe raise an eyebrow, and if she’s still on their machine they might ask her to move. I don’t expect much else. Dorothy’s keeping watch for a reason.
I feel weird about how many people are grossed out by this! Yeah, Dorothy trying to get Joyce and Joe apart is obnoxious, but she’s definitely not wrong about Joyce being super repressed, and sexual experimentation with friends (and dryers!) is kind of a major part of college for a lot of queer kids? (And some straight people, I assume.) Like, I’ve known people who had the only straight sex of their lives on a college dare, people who found out they were bi doing stuff remarkably similar to this, and people who would just straight-up ask casual friends how often they masturbated, out of sheer curiosity, and be confused at why they were getting embarrassed. I know it’s not everyone’s experience, but this really, really looks to me like your average friends-muddling-through experience – even Dorothy’s kinda bad motivations.
Other than the part where there’s not been any concern about anybody walking in on them, this comes off to me (oh-ho-ho) as cute more than anything. And part of the bonus of laundry machines is that unless you’re being super obvious, even if someone does come in, you can just pretend you’re waiting for a load to finish (oh-ho-ho!) if they ask why you’re sitting there. And I assume Dorothy is going to engage anybody who walks up to the room in conversation for a couple minutes, to warn Joyce – that’s what I’d do, anyway.
Like, I get it. Joyce was like “OH I could NEVER not EVER I’m not LIKE that,” but also, self-deception is a thing, and having friends who call you on it is good, and while it would obviously be better and healthier for Dorothy to have said “Are you doing this out of habit, or do you really not want to experience sex? Are you protesting because you want to be persuaded, or because you don’t want to do it?” buuuuuuut one of the things I love about this comic is that the characters don’t all talk like they’re therapists in training.
Anyway, nobody is wrong for feeling their feelings, and I don’t do comments anymore, but I just wanted to say I think it’s cool and it makes me vaguely nostalgic for undergrad experiences, if not-at-all undergrad lack of experience.
Lucky Joyce didn’t even have to risk dying of embarassment by asking, “…would you be there? Because, I know it sounds weird, but I don’t want to do this alone. Not yet.”
Frankly, it reminds me of some undergrad experiences that DIDN’T end with everyone having happy fun times, but bitter recriminations and regrets the next day.
Joyce did nothing wrong in this strip–she’s clearly not actually annoyed at Dorothy, she just doesn’t need her support anymore and wants privacy now that she’s ready. It’s a very chill and cute comic. It will also be the first comic in this series to unite the romantics and the critics in condemnation.
we’ve been had again, folks. I still believe in the Valentine’s Day Catastrophe theory, but… I am not sure we’re getting it this year.
She’s just taking Dorothy up on yesterday’s offer.
As for the Valentine’s disaster, this doesn’t have to be it. There’s still 2 weeks to finish off Walky and Lucy.
Or, in the wake of this, Joyce and Joe could run aground. (For a bit, they’re still very likely endgame.)
No, the Valentine’s Day Disaster is a very specific theory I have had for months that the Dorothy/Joyce ship, in a one-sided attempt to set sail, will collapse the whole harbor and throw the whole arrangement of Dina, Dorothy, Becky, Joe and Joyce into chaos.
At some point down the line, Joyce will, in an emotionally vulnerable or reckless state, kiss Dorothy. Or make some similar overture. Dina, Becky and any potential romantic partners for Joyce/Dorothy will all find out about this in different ways–like Becky walking in on them. This predictably throws Becky’s relationships with Dorothy and Joyce into chaos for different reasons, which also causes a rift between her and Dina, whose big insecurity in the relationship has always been “I’m just the rebound and she’s still into Joyce”. Meanwhile, Dorothy either doesn’t reciprocate or is confused. Everyone is in emotional turmoil and it’s potentially up to someone like Sarah to help fix things, much to her consternation.
I really thought (and still half-think) we were heading towards the Catastrophe here. Not only would have been the perfect moment for one of these two to realize they have Feelings and for Becky (or whoever) to walk in on them, we’ve also spent the last few chapters making Dorothy feel more challenged in the relationship, making her less passive and more an active pursuer of Joyce’s attentions. In other words, we’ve spent the last few chapters making things feel less one-sided, foreshadowing that maybe Dorothy could feel just as strongly as Joyce. I actually half-wonder if *Dorothy* is going to be the one to realize, “oh, crap, my Kinsey Scale Rating just jumped to 2”, and *Joyce* will be the one who feels confused.
The fact that we were coming up on Valentine’s Day made this an even more compelling theory to me. It could still happen, but Dorothy (quite understandably) leaving the room does make it a little less likely.
See, I feel like, and maybe this is just dumb shipper hope, but I honestly feel like Becky has been genuinely getting over Joyce, especially since she and Dina finally Did It and Becky and Joyce had that heart-to-heart a couple strips back. I think that one of Becky’s big trubs, that she needs to feel desired, that she needs to be wanted, has been resolved…and Dina’s own fear of being abandoned as the rebound has been dissipating with it. Maybe that’ll show up in a new way, and it’ll turn out that they were wrong to talk about marriage in the future so early, but like…I got high hopes for those crazy kids!
THAT BEING SAID, I agree with ya that Joyce/Joe/Dorothy is a powder keg waiting for a flame, and all three participants are like, coating the powder in napalm and adding thermite and shit.
My own Valentine’s Day of Disaster theorem, which has been in the slow cooker since back during the prescription pickup but then Becky and Joyce’s Big Talk upgraded the slow cooker to an Instant Pot and Dorothy Teaches Joyce To Beat It had just turbocharged things, goes something like this:
-Dorothy is going to realize, through SOME event, that she has hopped some Kinsey Scale rungs in a big way and be forced to confront this fact, and that if there is a lady she would like to get down with it is Joyce Brown
-Simultaneously to this, Joyce will make a move on the hunk of her dreams, Joe Rosenthal
-Joyce will have also realized she has feelings for Dorothy but for plot reasons, she is keeping them to herself
-Joe believes he’s not worthy of Joyce and for once he’s the one asking “are you sure, is this right”, and Joyce smoothly uses what she’s been learning to tell him “yes”
-Dorothy is racing to stop this like Ross running to the airport in Friends or some shit but you can’t stop this, this train is bound for Slipshine Station
-a Slipshine happens
-Dorothy finally hits Limit Break and we learn what it looks like when the pragmatic cool-headed super girl breaks down
-Someone plays “Mr. Brightside” over a panel montage
-Becky, Dina, and Sarah are left staring at a mushroom cloud of emotions, then the former two are abandoned by Sarah
haha both very cool theories. er, theory and theorem respectively. thanks for sharing! =)
i feel like i should come up with a competing model now! for kicks!
So, my theor..oid is that Dorothy pretends to be Joyce to break her and Joe up. the “silly sitcom” version is she stirs some shit by text. the “truly tinfoil” version is she blindfolds Joe and fucks him pretending to be Joyce. Or wait!!! she fucks… Joyce… pretending to be Joe? wow that’s even less believable! NICE. There, that’s my theory. theoroid. i’m very committed to it
Yeah those are definitely possessed by a demon sickly sweet hearts and flowers and not “I’m literally cumming while talking toy you” hearts and flowers… so the shoe hasn’t fully dropped. Then again, it might do so between strips.
2) have I been biting my lip this whole time? What are you doing there Daisy? Riding a dryer and or washer? Cause you look concerned and/or embarrassed?
I really hope this climaxes (*ba dum tsh*) in Joyce remembering that Dorothy only did this to control Joyce’s feelings about Joe and we still get to see Dorothy facing some kind of backlash over taking charge of Joyce’s life.
Like. People gushing over how cute this is remember that the trust and faith here is pretty one-sided, right? doing this not out of an altruistic desire to help her friend overcome her sexual hangups, but because she textually and explicitly doesn’t trust Joyce to make her own romantic desicions, right/i>?
No, I’m not bitter that Dorothy’s been consistently at like a 3 or higher on the 1-10 “kinda crummy friend scale” since the timeskip and has gotten away with it for over a year in real-life time.because the person she’s kind of a crummy friend to has her duct-taped to a pedestal, what are you talking about. I’m not the grump, you’re the grump. Harrumph.
You literally don’t know that “Dorothy only did this to…”. Unless Willis states such things explicitly, your reading is just speculation, and declaring it in such a style is folly.
Personally, to me, in my own mind and in my own words, I think, personally, just me, not speaking for anyone else, I think that it’s usually, for me, much easier and more conducive to conversations I’m in, to read/listen to people’s stated motivations and, without input from anyone else, you understand, accept that they mean what they say they mean until they reveal otherwise. Myself.
What’s that slogan, again? “When somebody tells you who they are, believe them”? Is that the correct use?
Also, people rarely do anything with only one intention. We’re all complicated and tangled up.
Loosening up Joyce’s sexual repression has long been on Dorothy’s mind, well before Joe was part of the picture. The Joe thing certainly brought it back to the forefront, but it didn’t come out of nowhere.
She’s also got reason to not trust Joyce’s romantic decisions when she’s horny – remember the whole Jacob fiasco.
She literally explicitly stated that she’s doing this to get Joyce away from Joe. She said that. Out loud. To Joyce. At the beginning of this adventure.
“You need to learn before you explode into terrible decisions like considering Joe a romantic prospect.”
“Like” being an operative word here. If we are going to ignore the entire context of Joyce and Dorothy’s evolving friendship in favor of one sentence we should at the very least examine the full implication of that sentence. Dorothy isn’t doing this as a “Fuck you” to Joe, she’s doing this because she believes it will leave Joyce better prepared for the future.
Also, Dorothy, uh, laid out a pretty coherent case as to why a romantic relationship with Joe would, from her point of view, put Joyce, her beloved friend, in danger of real harm, at least emotionally, because the Joe that Dorothy knows is a Bad Dude.
Is Dorothy working off outdated information? Sure. Is her plan kind of stupid? Yes, definitely. But is her plan evil, or spiteful, or abusive? No. It’s just dumb! It can be dumb without being evil!
I did read your comment. I was simply pointing out that even if we simply looked at the single sentence you focused on it is still clear that keeping Joyce away from Joe is only one of Dorthey’s motives.
I’m confused now. Am I supposed to take people at face value when they tell me what they want or not? Am I supposed to assume Dorothy has unstated motives but only if they’re good ones?
Now it seems like it’s you who hasn’t read my original comment. She stated a broader motive; “You need to learn before you explode into terrible decisions,” and then she stated a narrower motive; “like considering Joe a romantic prospect.”
Right. Got it. Understood. Dorothy thinks Joyce can’t make rational decisions when she’s horny about Joe or other things either. That is definitely a lot more kinds of motives. You sure did show me up.
What I don’t and CONNOT fathom, is how you think any of this becomes better when Dorothy assumes that Joyce is just generally incompetent when she’s horny rather than just about Joe in particular. Is that the motive you want to defend? That’s what you want represented in this argument that you object to calling keeping Joyce from Joe her only motive?
Pretty much yeah. People do make worse decisions when their hormones are in the way, and having an outlet is a useful way to prevent that. You disagree?
Joyce: “So, Dorothy, I let my guard down for you. Thank you! Now it’s your turn. You don’t know everything about Joe, but I’m starting to get the idea that I don’t either. What do you know that most of us don’t? I’ll tell my story if you’ll tell me yours.”
So many posters here seem to think they have the one true reading of the tone of the comic and even what is happening inside the fictional characters minds. Not only that, but they come here to preach and condemn thing based on their reading, never sparing a thought to the idea that they might have things wrong.
It’s godsdamned tiresome is what it is. A lot of you people need to get over yourselves.
The ones who come here to post about how “icky” all of this is, are also really weird. Even more so those who are 100% convinced that Dororthy is a bad guy and this is abuse. Shees…
I’m open to other people interpreting things differently. What I’m not open to is all the moral condemnation, implied or otherwise, of real human beings reacting differently to a story. That’s where all my personal backlash is coming from, at least. Can’t speak for other people.
Also, if I get over myself then nobody will be left who likes me, so for personal health reasons, I need to remain firmly up my own ass until the surgery.
It wouldn’t take much to fix it. It’s the bloody 110% certaintly in the declarations that drives me up the wall. People have a sick sense of ownership regarding the fiction they consume in general, and here they are making declarations as if they could see into the mind of the creator (or even weirder, the characters).
Just post your ideas in the style of “my reading is…”, “I feel she may be motivated by…” etc, and it’s all cool.
Don’t claim to know things you literally can’t know, people.
Okay but I went through the strenuous and expensive task of reading a 5-panel daily webcomic. I don’t think you understand how important that is, morally.
Eh, that just a relatively simple webcomic like this can get people to get this riled up is a good sign in my book, “lord of butts” Willis author guy must be doing something right, and has been for many years now.
@Gash I suppose it’s a sign of “engagement”. Doesn’t mean I like the way people go about “engaging”. You may be right about it being a good sign for the creator, however.
No Yumi, it’s not “even worse for me”. You are projecting, or putting words in my mouth. I do find it bizarre, and dislike the fact that some people seem to be making demands to “stop this kind of thing”. That seems seriously repressed.
Willis could descend from the heavens, look me in the eyes and say “This was completely healthy and normal and everything is fine” and I would still be in here talking about why it’s not, using his own material as proof lol.
Maybe I wasn’t clear: I wouldn’t be trying to argue that Willis doesn’t understand his own work, I would be arguing that what he’s depicting in his work is seriously unhealthy.
He has examples *in his own work* as to why this situation is unhealthy.
I’m still holding out to see what he does, ultimately.
I don’t see Willis as having all-good and all-bad characters involved in a morality play; he’s mostly telling a story about people who got layers ‘n stuff. So fundamentally good people can do things that are very unwise. And in the years I’ve been reading, he’s super-good at it.
If it turns out OK, that doesn’t mean it was OK. The word for that is ‘lucky’. And a good character doing a misguided thing makes for an engaging story.
Later, I’d love to see a story where Dorothy walks into the wrong emotional dark alley and is confronted by some actual self-doubt.
Sometimes authors write things badly and/or fail to get their intended point across clearly. To quote wikipedia on death of the author:
“[it] emphasizes the primacy of each individual reader’s interpretation of the work over any “definitive” meaning intended by the author, a process in which subtle or unnoticed characteristics may be drawn out for new insight.”
The amount of people who found the leadup the opposite of “completely healthy and normal and everything is fine” shows that, if that was the authorial intent, it did not succeed and was not written clearly enough.
“Death of the author” is such a pretentious concept. It imagines that any rando pulled off the street knows better than the author about what they meant to say. It’s taking ownership of another person’s idea and saying “Yeah, but I think it’s something else so that’s what it is”.
Yeah, death of the author is very “school-y” and a little annoying, but there is something to the idea that a large, dedicated audience can develop a collective idea about the work that, when contradicted by the author, creates tension. I don’t think it’s a good or bad thing necessarily.
Your error is applying to living author in a semibiographical story to the stand in author avatar character.
While i doubt this particular storyline is autobiographical it could be based on one.
The complaints on the comment section might be due to a separation in readership from slipshine readers.
Or the rise of online purity norms. Sarah stripped in front if Joyce and used a vibrator a decade ago. Maybe this needed more of a build up. But if you read closely Joyce admitted to being better deeply read ( less vanilla) in Amber’s smut than Dorothy.
Or alternatively the readers are missing the actual storyline that Willis is telling: Dorothy isn’t OK. And shes overcompensating by momming Joyce. ( glasses, hormones, autism, drawing class, and no sexual discovery. ) the storyline is a giant clue ( missing first word Jealousy) .
It’s quite reasonable to thing this isn’t completely healthy and normal on Dorothy’s part. That’s quite likely part of the intent.
It’s another step entirely to jump to it being abusive and basically sexual harassment, as many commentators have done over the past few days.
That’s not what Death of the Author means. You are a very confident self-professed bully, The Oracle, I’ll give you that, even if that confidence comes from a wellspring of ignorance.
Death of the Author does not mean the author has no importance, and that any random person knows better than the author. DotA describes what happens when art goes from a personal act and becomes a publicly accessible work of art. Once someone else sees your art, it ceases to be purely yours – the monologue becomes a dialogue, and viewers will bring their own selves to the work, fundamentally changing and fracturing it into a million different versions. The author no longer has control over the art, and cannot control the interpretations. This is just a fact about the world. The author’s control must die so that the art may live.
Death of the Author doesn’t mean that an author’s stated interpretation of the published work is irrelevant. It’s one of the most relevant interpretations around – but it doesn’t ever rise abobe interpretation. That’s the point. It means that an author’s post-hoc stated interpretation doesn’t magically go back and change the text. It does also kind of empower audience interpretations by saying they have the same text-warping powers as author interpretations – that is, none at all.
If knowing words by the author is required to correctly interpret the text, then those words better be in the text. If the words aren’t in the text, then they aren’t, you know, canonical to the text. They’re just some words someone said about the text. An important someone with keen insight on the text creation process! Definitely someone whose interpretation is of interest and relevance! But those words, that interpretation, is definitionally *not in the text*. Thus, any words the author says after the work is published cannot directly influence the work itself, making the author dead to the art as a creator. ((Because the artist literally can’t change the art itself anymore. Even if the artist has the ability to modify their work, you cannot guarantee that every original viewer will see the edit, thus you cannot truly change the original, only make a new version, with its own web of interpretations))
P.S. Calling a *concept* “pretentious” (instead of the way someone misapplies the concept) is a pretty big indication that you don’t actually know how to use the word “pretentious”, which would itself be kind of…
I care more about the weird lie, honestly. So I was wrong about dead authors. I’m wrong all the time. Only thing to do about it is stop being wrong about it in the future. The stakes are as low as they get.
If that’s what it is, then I really don’t think I wanna make anything creative anymore. It’s a really upsetting concept that once I put something out there, it belongs to everyone but me and I may as well have done nothing.
I mean, if I make something, I want it to be experienced. I just hate the idea of me being effectively irrelevant to its existence, completely replaced by whatever idea somebody I’ll never meet wants to substitute me with.
I don’t think that’ll ever be completely true. Something you end up producing isn’t necessarily even going to be subjected to these events. Don’t give up on being creative!
Not irrelevant, but not necessarily authoritative either. As they said ” An important someone with keen insight on the text creation process! Definitely someone whose interpretation is of interest and relevance! ”
For a comic relevant example, consider Joyce’s denial that there’s any sexual tension in her comic between Julia Gray and future President Doris. 🙂
Maybe it’s the name that makes it feel so dire. “Death” of the author. “Get the author out of here.” May as well not even attach my name to it at that point. I dunno, it feels really discouraging.
Thank you Taffy, for putting into words the feeling that makes me hate the Death of the Author idea with such a passion. It’s probably always been a thing, but when it came to my personally witnessing it, I noticed in increasing trend of self-described critics and readers acting as though their interpretation of a given piece of art somehow is as good as or supersedes the direct, stated intentions and influences of the writer/artist themselves, and that their desires for a given work should somehow take precedent.
Speaking as someone who does his own writing, the idea of somebody telling me that I don’t understand my own work or that they know what I meant better than I did or that their desires for *my* story are more important than mine is an idea that I find incredibly arrogant, insulting, and grating. It sets my teeth on edge.
Ironically, the conceptual basis behind DotA is kind of an example of itself–in the sense that if the idea was to promote a dialogue between artist and audience (as Booster Shot put it), it fails in communicating that idea in a way that an artist fail to communicate theirs effectively, given that the most common understanding of the concept of DotA is that the author’s will is effectively rendered irrelevant.
I will say that the idea itself of an author being separate from their work isn’t wholly without merit–Andrew Hussie proved that himself with homestuck when he interrogated the concept of Death of the Author by making it literal–but I think that should be the prerogative of the *author* to decide how integral they are to their own work, *not* the audience.
I should probably clarify: when I said I “noticed an increasing trend,” I meant “in general,” as in, I’ve been seeing more and more people do this since I was in high school, I wasn’t being specific to this webcomic or its commenters and that statement wasn’t meant to be a direct accusation or condemnation of anyone here.
@Songbird: that’s fair, the concept is provocatively worded. But it came about in a context: Roland Barthes was specifically fed up with gatekeeping academics who insisted on mastering every last detail on an illustrious author’s life before you’d be permitted to comment on their work. The intent was definitely to empower readers, not to alienate authors.
I don’t think Barthes would disagree with you, when you say that his concept has escaped from that original historical intent.
But also, arguably the essay was part of a program of thought and practice that did come to fruition. Around the same time Barthes wrote Death of the Author, feminist critics like Kate Millett were revisiting classic works and pointing out how they constructed/represented the patriarchal imagination, and so did black and queer thinkers, etc.
in other words, the necessity of the day was to knock authors down from their pedestal.
and, also arguably, this was also part of the movement that led to the foundation of cultural studies: the idea that any object in culture (fashion, advertising, pornography, genre fiction etc) was as worthy of analysis as “high art” such as classic novels and arthouse cinema.
When you publish your work, there are now two creations: yours and the beholder’s. Yours is yours and you absolutely have the right to say what it means to you. And the beholder absolutely has the right to be wrong. 🙂
DotA seems very solipsistic and entitled as a concept. It’s a viewpoint where the audience of any work can feel just as important, and as much of an authority on the work as its creator.
Well we have no definitive statement either way on the authorial intent of the last week or so of strips, so if that is required any claim you make to understanding the strip is thus equally flawed as mine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But that’s not actually what death of the author is about, it’s about taking what is written and drawing meaning only from the text, regardless of any author statements on their intent.
So, if Willis says that this was “completely healthy and normal and everything is fine” I would contend that the text does not do a good job supporting this in the leadup. While Joyce never says no, she also never says yes until the very end. Dorothy does tell Joyce she can say no, but also never asks for a yes this is okay.
This means we have a series of strips where, in text, Joyce only expresses uncertainty and passive acceptance, while Dorothy never actually asks if she is okay with this.
Regardless of authorial intent, myself and many others read this text and found it varying degrees of uncomfortable or inappropriate (especially when combined with other elements from the text around people respecting Joyce and her boundaries). Others, obviously, disagree with this reading.
Again, I will point out that we have, at the time of writing, no author statement on the meaning, so any claim of knowing the author’s mind or intent is as equal as any other.
As a separate example this article covers a situation where a piece of media attempted to portray something positively, but it came off badly.
Intent does matter, but ultimately the text is what we are given and have reactions to.
Yeah, I think more than a few people in here agree that this needed a WAY better/different lead-up if Willis has been trying to show that this is a cool, normal thing for these two.
Yeeeaaahhh basically. Like, this isn’t going bad for them and I’m glad for that, but it just feels real strange when the last, and seemingly very recent, interaction these two had before this was Joyce yelling at Dorothy and Roz to shut up about her sex life.
Following that with “I’m gonna teach you how to masturbate” just felt real jarring.
Word of god only goes so far, when it comes to fiction. The author has final choice about what occurs to their characters- legally… But the author has an implicit contract with their readership, to maintain certain foundational elements, or risk becoming decarbonized by the fandom itself (and frequently replaced by alternative ‘canon’).
With that being said, it’s not like the readers have spent very little time with these characters- if they spend just a minute on each comic, then they have spent roughly 3000 minutes, or around 50 hours real-time, with these characters- and that’s a fairly large chunk of time to get to know the expected behavior of an individual- especially when we have had repeated insight into their inner thoughts and workings, both conscious and subconscious.
With all that being said, this has not seemed remotely similar to previously established patterns of behavior for either of these characters, and seems like a rather dramatic shift for them both, in short time, and one that has been fairly uncomfortable to watch.
On top of that, at least for me, this is super-disturbing as well, that they consider this an appropriate use of a publicly shared space- do what you want with your own dryers, but respect other people (and their boundaries, explicit or implicit) enough to not intentionally misuse shared property.
Even more so; I could spend 50 hours IRL with someone and not get to know them very well. Our 50 hours with these characters is through the storytelling filter of turning points and moments. Distillation adds effect.
That’s fair. Even with Willis’s own work, look back to his commentary on things in Roomies! that he clearly thought were good and right when he wrote them.
Authors are not any more of a moral authority on their own work than anyone else. They can certainly point out their own intent on a scene or what the character’s motivations were, but that doesn’t make them morally right.
If, for example, the author has a certain notion of consent in mind and the characters act morally using that understanding, but a reader brings a different idea in which they’re not, the conversation then shifts to one about the morality of the different ideas of consent. That’s an area where the author doesn’t have authority.
To be clear, Willis’s hypothetical declarations about what is healthy and normal and fine would not actually be meaningful (or at least not any more meaningful that anyone else’s), because Willis is not a mental health expert. The argument where Willis gets to be Word of God on is whether the characters viewed this as healthy and normal and fine, and what the characters’ motivations are for their actions.
If you want to say that this is all part of Dorothy’s sinister plan to make Joyce her secret personal sex slave, Willis could easily debunk that with a simple no (or confirm it with a yes, hypothetically). If you just want to say this whole interaction as presented is fucked up, as an outside judgment, authorial intent doesn’t enter into that equation.
It’s a river in Italy that is referenced in the cliche phrase “crossing the Rubicon” (meaning “no turning back now”) which dates back to Julius Caesar crossing the river with his army after being told by the Senate to disband it and leave the territory. Having a standing army North of the Rubicon was illegal to Italy, and his crossing was a declaration of war (which led to the Civil War which resulted in his “dictatorship for life.”)
I hadn’t heard in the wild in decades, but a lot of far right wing types started using it after the 2020 election, in a more literal context than usual.
Didn’t the comment section realized that Joyce had complete freedom here and wasn’t an uwu baby. That was less then a week ago but now it seems everyone is sliding back.
—if you want to hear about how believing Joyce has complete freedom is the REAL infantilization, turn to page 43.
—if you want to hear about Dorothy’s mind control powers and how they mean Joyce’s consent is always false, turn to page 69.
—if you want to hear about how actually, Joyce doesn’t get to decide what being sexually abused is, and even if she decides the experience was good and welcome, Dorothy is a sex criminal now, turn to page 20.
–If you want to hear about how “things turning out okay” doesn’t mean that Dorothy WASN’T playing with fire the whole front half of this storyline, turn to page 81.
Not to make a mess, but I want to just rehash my reasons for why this whole scenario is pretty weird and wanted to make a new thread specifically about these points.
TLDR, *please* go back and read Take Me to Life Drawing, maybe even earlier, and pay special attention to the way everyone, but specifically Dorothy, treats Joyce. They all treat her like a child, but Dorothy and Joyce clearly have an unhealthy attachment.
Dorothy has been seen arguing with Billie about Joyce, specifically about Joyce’s autonomy (Billie on the side of Joyce doing things on her own). Billie specifically refers to Dorothy as a “mom” in this interaction, and not in a good way… I think Billie is in the right here, especially since Dorothy backs down. You can say that Billie might be wrong because Billie has made so many bad decisions herself… But she’s in therapy now, and like it or not she’s learning a lot about unhealthy relationships.
Dorothy has been seen being very, very defensive toward Joe. Whether you agree its justified or not based on his past behavior, it is undeniably extreme to imply Joyce is Joe’s “prey.” They are trauma-bonded by Ryan and the kidnapping, and while it is understandable it is not healthy.
Dorothy has been shown to have Joyce’s personal information, access to her phone, has expressed an interest and ability to pick up her prescriptions and get her into classes. This is NOT a normal friendly thing to be doing and further reinforces the parental relationship between them.
This is clearly an informal parental relationship where Dorothy makes choices for Joyce. When Joyce pushes back, Dorothy gets insecure and upset, and Joyce relents; these two are co-dependent as fuck and it is not cute. I have to insist that this is not just my personal interpretation… There are strips that clearly depict this TEXTUALLY, and not that long in the past!
Again, I *highly* recommend everyone go back and read the “Take Me to Life Drawing” arc again. Pay specific attention to the way these two talk to each other. So much happens to show how Dorothy and Joyce have an unhealthy attachment, that expresses itself in a pattern.
Regarding autonomy and infantilization, all of these recent Joyce arcs have been about how Joyce needs to have space to make her own decisions, even if they are mistakes. This is also referenced by Robyn when talking to Becky about having sex for the first time.
Dorothy surprising Joyce, *telling* her they are gonna go jerk off, specifically mentioning she wants her to stop thinking about Joe, and only asking if she’s okay with it as an afterthought, is not a clear depiction of Joyce having autonomy. This is Dorothy making a decision for Joyce, just like with the Life Drawing Class, that Joyce is going along with on “Dorothy’s orders,” a line that Joyce herself uses. Again, this is reinforcing Dorothy’s parental relationship with Joyce, and doesn’t give Joyce the space to decide how she wants to do this.
There are SO many little interactions where, after the very rocky start to their relationship, he was supportive of her.
I don’t know if Dorothy knows any of this, but it is clear she really doesn’t understand internalized shame. She kinda swerved around working through “it’s OK to masturbate” to get right to “I’m going to teach you how…”
Dorothy clearly knows nothing of Joyce’s interactions with Joe. I’m not even sure she knows about their disastrous early date. Dorothy does know the old Joe quite well though, from years of dating his best friend.
So we’ve really got to hold both contradictory notions in mind at once. We can think Joyce and Joe will be a good relationship and still understand why Dorothy thinks it’s predatory. It makes no sense if we just consider our knowledge and don’t try to see Dorothy’s point of view.
As for teaching her to masturbate, while that’s what she said up front, everything she’s actually done has been to set the stage to encourage it and support it being an okay thing to do, not actually teaching Joyce any mechanics. Because that was the part that Joyce needs to learn.
From what I’ve seen it’s been all mechanics; go pee, take your pants off, sit there, try using your fingers. She literally only knows about internalized shame as an abstraction. I don’t think she’s ever experienced it.
It’s kind of amazing how differently people can read this comic.
It reminds me of people arguing she should have just bought her a vibrator and left her alone. That would never have worked, because of the internalized shame. Dorothy’s approach did, because she didn’t push her to do anything that would be blocked by the shame. (She suggested fingers, which Joyce rejected at first and then apparently accepted.)
Dorothy’s got some internalized shame. She’s talked about it before. Not nearly the depths of Joyce’s of course, but she seemed to have calibrated her approach quite well.
Well, it ended up working because Willis decided it would. If they had decided that giving her a vibrator would have worked, then it would have. Some people might argue that it wasn’t fitting for it to work, some would have said that it was better than other scenarios (such as this one), and some would go, “Well, it did work, so what’s the problem?”
I mean, yes. Willis can write whatever he wants. He could have decided that only an explicit demonstration by Dorothy would have worked and taken it to Slipshine, but this approach fits very nicely with Joyce’s established sexual repression in a way that her going “Oh, well now I have a vibrator, I guess I might as well use it” wouldn’t have.
Okay. I disagree about this fitting any better, and I also think there are many approaches that would have. We can sat now retroactively that it “would” work because it already has, and it’s easier to work backwards like that.
We don’t know if getting a vibrator for Joyce wouldn’t have worked, just as we don’t yet know if Dorothy’s actions will have any negative consequences.
I’m trying to use examples within the work itself to make my argument, so here’s another one.
A parallel to this situation within the comic is Becky and Dina. Becky willfully approached two experienced adults that she trusts for advice on her first time having sex. The conclusion? Leslie: Its complicated, it depends on what’s important to you and what isn’t. Robyn: It’s not that complicated, you’re clearly in sexual and romantic love with Dina, so just fuck around and find out. Basically a very normal, healthy conversation with two experienced people Becky can trust.
Compare to Dorothy and Joyce. Dorothy shows up out of nowhere after a difficult conversation with her ex that clearly frustrated her, tells Joyce she’s going to stop her from wanting Joe by showing her how to J/O, and gets consent after the fact. She sees Joyce’s repression as a problem that needs fixing–a problem for who, exactly?
I agree Dorothy doesn’t know everything about what Joe and Joyce. That is adding tension to the situation, but I don’t think that justifies her behavior as normal. And in my view, there is no romantic or sexual energy between Joyce and Dorothy that can justify this approach in any way.
You say giving her a vibe and leaving her alone wouldn’t have “worked”–“Worked,” to what end? Do you think Joyce is in danger? Do you agree she needs to be sexually relieved so she doesn’t sleep with Joe? That’s Dorothy’s goal. Is this a good thing? What exactly is the “problem” that’s being avoided here? So she doesn’t make a “mistake” with Joe, like Becky was afraid of doing with Dina?
Furthermore (sorry) this isn’t even going to stop Joyce from wanting Joe. If anything it’ll make her feel more comfortable initiating sexually with him! How do you think Dorothy would react then?
Worked in the sense of getting her to masturbate, not the larger sense of whatever you think Dorothy was doing here.
Specifically what I was commenting on: That she was supporting Joyce and working around her internalized shame rather than teaching her mechanics and that Dorothy understood her well enough to approach it that way.
Ah, I see. Sorry if I came at you from the wrong angle. But my question does remain, does Joyce really need to be taught to masturbate in this situation at all? By, like, anybody?
does anyone *need* to be taught to masturbate though? like, what’s your baseline here?
there have been a few comments here and there the last few days from people who have been taught to masturbate, more or less directly, by friends or lovers, and were grateful for it.
Milu—I can’t speak on their experiences. I don’t know all the details and I never will. I’m willing to bet their partner was not picking and choosing classes for them, confronting other people for daring to get involved, had all their info ready to pick up prescriptions and access to their phone et..
However, I can see that within the context of this comic, there is no real reason for Dorothy to be doing this right now besides her not wanting Joyce to hook up with Joe. That’s what I mean.
Someone mentioned up there that Dorothy is doing this because she knows she’s leaving for Yale (a fact no one else knows…) and wants to “help” Joyce by squeezing in this experience with her before disappearing. Consider what exactly is the goal here? The only stated “issue” is that she doesn’t want Joyce to hook up with Joe, which is none of her business anyway, and she can’t control!
So, why? What is the problem that’s being fixed? We have to consider why Dorothy think this is so necessary.
frankly i’m agnostic as to Dorothy’s motivations.
i do agree with thejeff that there’s been a consistent thread in their friendship of Dorothy trying to help Joyce out of her ingrained religious brainwashing, and i can see Dorothy at least telling *herself* that’s part of the reason she’s doing this now. i don’t think her motives are pure obviously, we’ve been seeing her scramble to keep Joyce away from Joe, and she was clearly piqued by Roz’s accusations of slut-shaming. but it doesn’t have to be either-or.
still, i’ve read these and other arguments, yet i’m also not really feeling Dorothy this storyline, on a gut level. i’m hoping the resolution will make it make more sense for me, but i agree that this storyline is pretty wonky for Dorothy’s character so far.
But working through her sexual repression has been a big part of her growth. She’s shown plenty of frustration and distress over it. This won’t fix that completely of course, but it’s likely to help.
And it’s something she wasn’t likely to be able to do on her own anytime soon, so if it was going to happen, help was needed.
I have no idea how publicly masturbating at a friends behest is less of a leap than doing it in private out of personal curiosity.
I mean, Joyce has said as much in this strip that she *already* masturbates privately, just not very well because of the stipulations she’s set on herself about what does and does not “count”
Giving Joyce a vibe may or may not have resulted in her actually using it. But either way it would have been fully Joyce’s choice instead of Dorothy picking the most expedient route to “solve a problem.” That’s the beef I have with this, it feels incredibly heavy handed about a subject Joyce in particular is sensitive about.
I don’t want to put words into the author’s mouth, but the messaging I’m getting from Dorothy at least here is that it’s cool to blow blast people’s boundaries as long as they end up liking it in the end. Which is…..ooh boy is that not a message I like at all.
So I’m waiting to see if this ends up blowing up in Dorothy’s face or whether “the ends justify the means” is actually the promoted message here.
Yeah… I just don’t see it. I mean, I do see what you’re talking about, but I just can’t recognize it as a degree of genuine parental interaction that would be a problem. Dorothy does “mother” Joyce, but it doesn’t make what they have a parental relationship or give Dorothy power/authority over Joyce. She may be going to the class on “Dorothy’s orders”, but only after she explicitly asked Dorothy for help on the subject. She’s not just going along with what Dorothy says, it’s something she specifically wanted to do herself… just like this situation.
Granted, Dorothy has certainly been overly (and maybe inappropriately) forceful in both these situations: signing Joyce up for classes rather than just doing research for her, and treating this masturbation session as a statement rather than a question. Dorothy is, inarguably, less than perfect at treating Joyce as an autonomous, independent person. But that doesn’t mean Joyce is incapable of acting as one, and despite Dorothy’s overreach, telling Dorothy she needed time to sort out her own stuff after picking up meds, and telling everyone to butt out during the argument with Roz. The power dynamic between them isn’t one-sided. Joyce hasn’t “relented” to Dorothy against her own judgment or desires.
Where I can’t say I think you’re necessarily wrong is the issue of codependence. I disagree that they’re demonstrating an unhealthy level of it, especially since your storyline example of choice is when Joyce is quite literally in pain and lashing out… but the codependency is definitely there.
Thanks for your reply. This might be nitpicking but I believe Joyce asks her for “research” on the drawing class, not an explicit request to sign her up for it.
What Dorothy does is email the professor to get Joyce a spot, buy the supplies, and get angry when Joyce doesn’t acknowledge her right away.
As far as Joyce being incapable of acting autonomously, I just don’t see Dorothy giving her the space to make her own decisions on how to approach this.
Instead, she tries to anticipate and preemptively fulfill what she believes to be Joyce’s desires, without having any real conversation about it… This is a classically unhealthy relationship dynamic in and of itself.
As I mentioned, Dorothy definitely did overstep what Joyce asked her to do, in both the drawing class and in this situation. But also, she didn’t “sign her up” for it, just confirmed she was allowed to sit in, which is still fully in the bounds of research. There wasn’t any obligation for her to go. Buying supplies was really the only thing she did outside of what was explicitly asked of her, which is… a mild offense at best, and also frankly a completely normal reaction to an opportunity that comes up sooner than anticipated.
Likewise, I agree that Dorothy isn’t giving Joyce quite enough space, but Joyce has also clearly demonstrated her ability to push back when she feels like she needs the extra space. It’s not the best relationship dynamic, but it’s also one they can work on rather than being a toxic/abusive relationship they need to cut out.
Like, there’s definitely problems here, but I don’t think they’re unusually severe compared to typical interpersonal dynamics and conflicts.
I love Dorothy’s expression in the last panel! It’s the face of someone happy because she did a good job and it brought happiness to someone she cares about. Or that of a person who gave a friend the gift that she secretly wanted, but that she would never have the courage to ask for.
ok honestly as much as I like this scene, I just want it to be over as soon as possible so the discussion can stop being about sexual abuse. whatever backhanded whatever I’ve tossed at people during this, I apologise. this is just really getting to me and I can’t wait for the topic to be literally anything else.
On a completely unrelated note, I’ve been watching “The Extraordinary Attorney Woo,” and “The Chosen,” on Netflix, both of which have neurodiverse main characters. My partner doesn’t like watching “The Chosen,” because Bible stories aren’t really his thing, but really related to Attorney Woo. He saw a lot of himself in her. Talking about the series together helped him to understand his own idiosyncrasies, and helped me to understand him better, too.
Both series have had criticism for portraying people with autism as stereotypical “genius savants,” kind of the same way “The Good Doctor” (both Korean and US versions) and so many other TV shows and movies have done.
“The Chosen” has done better than “Attorney Woo” in hiring and including staff and actors with disabilities, including neurodivergence. But in general, having a nondisabled actor mimicking the tics and grimaces and such of a neurological disability can sometimes feel like mockery.
So here’s my question: are such imitative portrayals in media helpful, or harmful? Do they perpetuate stereotypes and mockery, or do they promote acceptance, understanding, and inclusion?
I don’t think it matters if the actor is actually braindifferent, as long as I can believe the character is. For example, I don’t think RJ Cyler is autistic, but his version of Billy Cranston absolutely is and I’d never have known the difference if I hadn’t looked it up just now.
Put another way, as long as the character isn’t written in an insulting way and the actor is doing an alright job with the script (and doesn’t say something fucking stupid about it on Conan or whatever), they can do what they want.
It’s my first special interest. And I’m no gatekeeper. If I could recommend a specific season, Lost Galaxy is mostly self contained and has some of the best writing in the franchise. The original series is a classic, of course, but it’s also the start of continuous story spanning six seasons, the characters come and go at the drop of a hat, and it can be a lot to remember. Then again, that also makes it the perfect season to just sit back and enjoy at whatever pace you like.
>So here’s my question: are such imitative portrayals in media helpful, or harmful?
Depends how good of an actor they are and how good the script is. The entire point of a show is to get you to suspend your disbelief of something that is not real. This can include everything from sexuality to neurodivergence. It’s only mockery and stereotyping when they actually rely on mockery and stereotyping to accomplish this goal, and generally it is a sign of laziness on the part of the actor, director, and script writer.
One thing I think both series do well
(and, it sounds like, the Power Rangers does well too) is show how folks with neurodivergent abilities can be targets for bullying and mockery, and what kinds of strategies and resiliencies they may adopt to cope with such exclusion.
Yeah, and also, are there autistic people (or whatever is being represented) working on the show? Like, if the main character is autistic, and they end up casting an allistic actor (after making sure that the casting process was accessible and inclusive of possible autistic actors) okay. What about the directors? Producers? Writers? Consultants? How far do you have to go to find someone with lived experience who is connected to this show?
If there’s not an autistic person in one role, okay, but if they’re not in ANY role, then I’m going to be skeptical.
Yes, I think “The Good Doctor” US version had consultants who had autism. Attorney Woo has been criticized for having child development specialist consultants but not autistic consultants themselves.
great point. It’s what’s expressed by the common sentiment that goes, “i can’t believe there’s a single [X] person working in decision-making positions on this show, or this arc/line/scene would never have been allowed to go ahead”
Also, one thing I think would really help is if there were multiple autistic characters in the cast, if only to make sure that the one token character doesn’t become yet another defining stereotype, and at least make an effort to show how diverse we are as a group.
yes! very good point.
i also think it’s important, when the least bit appropriate, to represent the marginalized *community* as a thing.
For instance i find it intensely frustrating when a movie has a central queer character who, for no discernable reason, has NO QUEER FRIENDS. it’s like, wtf, why?!
Yes, “The Good Doctor” was good that way. There were other characters who had autism spectrum conditions or were otherwise neurodiverse, but it didn’t give the main character a special “affinity” for them, and made clear that not all folks with autism were alike or related to each other.
I don’t know about these shows in particular, nor about disability rep generally. But one thing that comes up a lot when discussing who should or shouldn’t be representing characters from marginalized groups (queer, non-white, fat, not-canonically-pretty, etc) is the fact that there (usually) are many struggling actors from these same groups, and it doesn’t send a great message when a piece of media that purports to fight for/on behalf of excluded folk don’t put their money where their mouth is.
Typical (and not necessarily always wrong) rebuttals to this line of argument are often:
– sure, there are actors from X group, but not that many, and we did try to cast one, but honestly we failed to find one fitting the part
– this one actor we picked is fantastic, we clicked, we wrote the role with them in mind, etc
– producers insisted on having a sexy face or a famous name for promo reasons, we didn’t really have a say, sorry
Many good points being brought up here, and I will also add on: For identities that are not visible (such as neurodiversity and queerness), requiring that only actors who are x play characters who are x can result in pressuring actors to come out about that identity.
Now, I know some works that go in with the requirement that actors will share marginalized identities with characters, and that’s great. There’s a show I enjoyed with two autistic main characters, played by autistic actors, and I love that representation. I think it’s fair to say, “We are making this show in part with this intention.” But I don’t think that needs to be a universal rule.
The show is called Everything’s Gonna Be Okay. I found it at times uncomfortable to watch, in a way that I would sort of describe as making me cringe, but not in the way the term “cringe” is used on the internet these days. I guess it felt very real to me in way that like… actually witnessing this happen in someone else’s life would be uncomfortable. This is more just a not than a critique of the show, as I personally think it’s really interesting to create a show that someone can both experience that feeling with and enjoy.
Anyway, it only lasted two seasons, wish it got more, but oh well.
Why is any of this happening?
What has Dorothy actually taught Joyce over this entire scene?
Why are they doing this in a public laundry room?
Does Willis think laundry machines help people masturbate?
This might be a weird thing to say (I’ve barely slept in months), but I think maybe the word “teach” is being taken too…school-ly. (I don’t know the smart people word for it, shut up.)
What I mean by that is, I don’t think she was ever intending to sit Joyce down and give her diagrams or whatever it is teachers do. I think it’s a more casual, colloquial use of it, sort of a “help you learn a behavior” more than “instruct you on this activity”.
If that makes sense. I don’t know, I’ve got no confidence in my own reading comprehension anymore.
I think this makes sense. Dorothy wanted Joyce to get over her block surrounding sexual pleasure, and it this seems like a step in that direction.
yeah, the comments lately have been exhausting. i’ve mostly found the discussions really interesting, if sometimes a bit heated for comfort, but if that helps, personally i try to think of coming out of a discussion less confident in my opinions as i was going in as enriching. trying to grasp multiple excluding perspectives at once can absolutely be exhausting, no question. but i think there’s also something deep about the experience? that’s just me of course.
This arc has been so weird. Even without getting into the consent vs. enthusiastic consent argument no matter how stealthy this is, this is still public masturbation which is gross. The people giving Dorothy the benefit of the doubt for this would not do the same if the next strip was Joe in the corner of the mens laundry room on a dryer jacking off.
I don’t know… like, this has easily been my least favorite arc in the series so far. Seeing as how I usually enjoy the strip, this has been very disappointing. But there are lots of examples of media that I don’t like that other people do, like Law & Order, or Rick & Morty. Other people enjoying things that I don’t in media does not make that media, or those people, bad.
For your specific judgment of how others would react, well… 1. maybe that’s not actually the case, as Taffy suggested, and 2. that would be a different scenario. People react differently to different scenarios. Maybe it’d be the same from a legal standpoint or something, but that’s not the perspective most people are assessing the comic from.
I don’t know if I’m too late to comment, but I just wanted to to express my confusion about the grossness aspect being talked about in the comments. The way I’ve seen it being talked about makes it seem like when women masterbate it leaves a massive mess that would then have to be dealt with, in the same way that guys do. I’ve also seen a few comments mention squirting. I already knew that squirting was a thing some women do when they come, but I’ve never experienced that myself and I kind of thought that squirting was
The only “squirting” that I care about is a weekly ritual between my closest friends and I, wherein we get together outside a local bell tower and drink four bottles of Squirt soda each.
yeah, i’ve also been finding that a bit weird. i guess part of it is that my squick threshold is probably kinda high. learning that someone had masturbated on top of a dryer i’m about to use (or that my clothes are currently inside of) would probably make me laugh and go, “good for them” and then entirely forget about it.
it feels like the impulse to think about clean-up for some people will come from a sort of a reflexive sense of “sex = dirty”. personally, i’d imagine the sweat from both girls’ thighs is what’s more likely to leave a (very) small amount of moisture on the dryers and sure, wiping that off would probably be considerate.
I don’t know about masturbation specifically, but I could see someone finding it gross because of butthole proximity to a surface they might be folding clean laundry on.
Unusual. Sorry my other comment got too long for the box so I had to post it in a pair. Following on from my previous comment, am I the weird one then for not squirting? I don’t remember ever making a mess
1. You are not weird for not squirting. Everyone is different, and most people with vaginas do not squirt.
2. Your comment wasn’t actually too long for the box, unless you mean it was causing difficulty for you on whatever device you were using. I think the comment field has an upper limit, but it is far, far over what you posted, and usually the box will just allow you to scroll.
You’re not weird for not squirting. Honestly I don’t know of a lot of people that actually squirt any or a noticeable amount during orgasm, but mess would come the fact that people with vaginas generally generate lubrication which, depending on how thin her panties are and how much coverage they have, it could get directly on the machine, plus this fluid would also get on her hands/fingers (my school’s laundry room didn’t have a sink or hand soap, so no way to wash hands after).
So the lubrication that vaginas make to aid in the process of sex is what I would worry would get on the machine. It likely wouldn’t be a lot, but it’s still a bodily fluid that could get on the public surfaces.
Also, the amount each vagina makes varies per person and also varies per age. For instance, I knew a girl in High School who would have it drip down her leg during foreplay. And personally I had always created a sufficient amount (provided I was actually attracted to my sexual partner, but that’s a whole different issue) but when I hit my late 30s/early 40s, suddenly production ramped up and I really felt like that WAP “bucket and mop” situation. o_O Ironically, at that level, it can actually be a detriment, because it makes things so slide-y that the complete lack of friction can make it so your partner can’t feel stimulation anymore, making it less enjoyable and more difficult to finish.
Rereading the arc, I think that Joyce did give her consent. In addition to the body language cues, Dorothy also says if Joyce isn’t okay with it, they can – but before she can even finish saying it, Joyces says that it’s fine, that it’s *more* than fine and how they’re going to do so much “laundry”. So, I do think that’s consent.
The only issue I have (which I’ve had the whole time) is that this is a very public place to masturbate and the effect it could have on Joyce if she was caught, as well as the issue of that whoever walked in didn’t consent, plus sanitary issues.
That’s why Dorothy is keeping watch. As for any potential mess, well… I suppose they’re in a laundry room anyway. May as well clean up with what they have on, after the rest finishes drying.
Fair point. She’s keeping watch now, which is good, but earlier, anyone could have walked in. And I know that from the perspective of someone walking in at that point, it would have looked like nothing was happening, but the embarrassment to Joyce, especially with her fundamentalist roots, could have set her back so far, and I wish Dorothy would have considered that. But yes, at least Dorothy can stop anyone from walking in during the most explicit part.
Regarding cleaning up, maybe your laundry room was different in college, but mine didn’t have any cleaning supplies, not even hand soap, and just wiping away bodily fluids doesn’t sanitize the surface. If Joyce were wearing her pants still, I wouldn’t be as concerned, but she’s in her panties and also, if she uses her fingers to finish – I’m betting she’s not going to be thinking about how she shouldn’t touch anything in the room after that.
It basically felt out of left field, which bothered me. Her stating that she has done this before made it clear why she seemed unlike herself, however – There was info missing, which made the arc feel much better
I would also like to point out how actively Joyce voiced her objections to Dorthey and Walkies relationship, I mean she seriously never missed an opportunity to say that they shouldn’t be together, and how weird it is that people have a problem with putting the shoe on the other foot.
1. Joyce tended to be pretty vocally disapproving but generally not in ways Dorothy was uncomfortable with, while Joyce has specifically expressed disinterest in Dorothy’s intervention
2. Dorothy hasn’t just voiced displeasure but actively tried to stop them from getting together, Joyce knew full well Walky and Dorothy wanted to date even if she disaproved and helped their relationship instead of trying to sabotage it
I’m not down on Joyce. Or Dorothy either. I think there actions make perfect sense from their point of view. I’m just saying there always seems to be a contingent of the fanbase willing to snap at Dorothy even when other characters do similar things.
Loading ...
literally get the fuck out?
=3
If you don’t like what you see here…
Get the funk out!
I am still quite fond of that album, particularly that song.
Sorry alt-text, but Jedi mind tricks don’t work on me.
Are you a Toydarian?
Get the literal fuck out.
No, get the literal fuck ON. 😉
I’m not sure what to think about that.
Yeah, I feel like if this event had to happen … it got kind of uncomfortable a few strips ago.
Yeah, this sequence definitely has a weird vibe.
Yeah, who ever heard of a vibe that also dried clothing?
Speaking as a dude who uses laundromats regularly, I think they were both seated on washing machines. The dryers are the things with the big glass portholes stacked two-high behind Dorothy in the final panel.
You are correct. They like their sex to be dirty to start off and then clean up afterwards.
Dorothy called them dryers twice.
Dorothy doesn’t know her ass from a hole in the ground.
Your sass is reaching peak levels.
(this is not a complaint)
Actual LOL
I wish to appropriate this insult for use irl XD
The washers at my local laundromats also have glass fronts. I presume this is mostly so you can tell at a glance which ones are occupied. There isn’t enough detail to not take Dorothy at her word, I think. But I do see what you mean.
I’ve never seen a front-load washing machine with a solid front door.
Those are older Maytag machines, and they absolutely did make them with solid doors. They actually made both washers and dryers that way.
Source: My parents had them in the early ’90s, but also the coin-op laundry down the street from my apartment in the late ’90s had Maytag washers with solid doors. I think there were also coin-op dryers made the same way, but I’m not 100% certain on that, most coin-op dryers even then were double stack with clear doors.
They named an appliance brand after a comic book jester girl?
@taffy Even funnier: they named an appliance company after a dairy farm
Laundromats use those but apartments and dorms with communal washers and dryers often use individual units.
IRL to comic art changes aside, these dryers look identical to the ones in my apartment building.
If Joyce were willing to use a weird vibe, Dorothy wouldn’t have needed to bring her to the laundry room for this
Yeah, there definitely is a weird vibe being involved.
Yeah, I’ve been trying to give this storyline the benefit of the doubt but it really kinda feels like some odd Magical Realm shit.
Try lots of sympathy for Joyce. She’s trying to move past the indoctrination she received growing up, and has taken some strong first steps, but it can be difficult to let go of the irrational pieces embedded in our brains from such an environment. She can’t just allow herself to masturbate like a healthy person, but she still wants that release and the resulting endorphins. “It’s ok to give yourself an orgasm as long as it’s accidental” is actually kind of a depressing thing to hear. Dorothy is helping Joyce grow into a healthier person here.
It wasn’t Dorothy’s call to make.
Yeah, it’s almost as if they’re not gay and about to devour each other. It’s almost as if Joyce isn’t being coerced. Weird. What is happening?
Joyce’s first Big-O!!!! SO BEAUTIFUL!!!! 😭😭😭 🥹🥹🥹
*plays “Dreams Come True” from Sailor Moon CD on hacked muzak*
LMAO!
Unfortunately that’s what happens in Discrete Structures. (600 internet points to anyone who gets this joke).
Somehow I doubt Joyce is determining the time complexity of anything right now.
600 points to you!
Shame on you for linking to the wrong Anime when mentioning Big-O! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7_Od9CmTu0 😀
CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD, YE NOT GUILTY
Will this be a Laundry Room of Amnesia?
We have come to… terms.
Yes. Terms.
Don’t Be Afraid Of Carnal Knowledge!
Even if it’s Unlawful?
Unlawful Carnal Knowledge is the name of my mathcore Keane cover band.
Joyce wqs implying yesterday it’s not her first.
Agreed. Otherwise how would she know how much longer Dorothy’s interruptions would delay her?
Lol! It’s kinda sweet though. Joyce needed this.
Apparently some Humans made a song about having some……. happy time between midday & nighttime, maybe that would be a song you could use…
https://youtu.be/wu1UXCdyNo0
dorothy close the door jesus christ
If it’s like the laundry room where I went to college, there’s literally not a door to close.
You can see the door in the last panel, it’s open all the way but you can see it on the left.
actually I think that may be the…lintel? jamb?
I thought it was the door at first too but looking more closely it’s part of the frame
Yeah, looking at it, you can tell it’s the frame and the place where there’d normally be the. Thingamajigger. The bit where the door latches. It’s just blank, thus not a case where you could close the door.
. . . wait nvm. I just flipped through strips back to October to find another image of a doorframe that was at the correct angle and didn’t have someone standing in the way and it doesn’t look like that’s a detail that is normally included in the art, so any analysis of the doorframe here would be inconclusive.
Yeah, that’s not the door.
You’re not the door.
Yumi can be the door if they want.
That reminds me of the warnings on products: “This is not a toy.” Anything can be a toy if you play with it. What they mean to say is it should not be used as a toy. If a person wants to act as a door, who are we to stop them? It may not be your intended function, but go for it.
…Thank you all for your support.
Doors are fire hazards and I can’t think of a single reason you’d need one that could possibly override that concern.
In the event of a fire, closing the door would help to contain things. Not a long-term solution, of course, but hold back the smoke and flames long enough that the fire department has a few more minutes to respond.
If you remember to close it instead of panicking and running.
Don’t fire doors have those gadgets at the top to automatically pull them closed? It’s why you’re not supposed to use doorstops on them.
I don’t pay much attention to fire doors, so you may be right.
Depending on the door it can be much more than a few minutes. A few years back I called the firedepartment because i heard the firealarm in the apartment underneath me. Once the firemen were there and they discussed with the lady’s social worker and me about what had happened (not the first time she had fallen asleep with the oven started) i expressed concern about how quickly a fire can spread from apartment to apartment mostly because i would need to get my cats in the carriers. And the fireman told me, the second front door in our apartments, is built to withhold a fire for up to an hour to stop it from spreading to the rest of the building.
The problem is any door present on that room is going to present a problem to anyone trying to bring laundry through the “pull” side, so best to just have no door. Laundry rooms are usually doorless.
A public-use laundry room should definitely have a fire-rated door that opens out. If it’s desirable for it to stay open, it should be a magnetic latch automatic fire door. It should also have a photoelectric (not ionizing) smoke detector and/or heat detector, and sprinklers.
A laundry room is the 2nd most likely room in any building for a fire to start, the kitchen being the most likely.
Or you could just not douse your clothes in kerosene. Duh.
Depends on which side of the door the fire’s on.
Still one of the weirdest storylines ever.
Also I guess Dorothy can now tell Becky she brought Joyce to her first orgasm.
I was gonna make a joke about winning one over on Becky secretly being Dorothy’s motivation for this whole escapade, but then it hit me: she’s doing it to win one over Joe.
Roz, Joe, Becky and repressed women everywhere.
*Hail to the Chief plays in the background, flag waves.*
I wouldn’t mins a storyline where Joyce mentions that Dorothy brought her to her first orgasm, with Joe, Becky and Roz around of course
Dina just goes in for a high five, utterly oblivious to the feelings in the room.
That could even be better because Dina being utterly oblivious means she could mention it in the worse (or best) way possible
I think that means Dorothy won the rivalry.
Not that she cares. It’s just, y’know, she won. And she’ll know even if Becky doesn’t. That she won.
This might not be Joyce’s actual first orgasm. Yesterday she said she thinks she’s “made it before” from just rubbing her thighs together for a long time.
I think I’d rather not know what she was getting off to, that first time (unless it would be funny, I guess).
She has seen Joe’s sex tape before, so maybe that.
Probably one of Amber’s fanfics. Or maybe a fantasy involving Dotty…or Amazigirl…or Becky and Dina. xD
And lift off, we have lift off…
And it only took over 48 real world hours for Joyce to get off.
Dorothy has the patience of a saint and a bladder of solid titanium.
Okay still really weird but this is cute
“Is that from ‘Harry and the Hendersons’?”
Wait, Dorothy being responsive to Joyce’s wishes? Better check for pods.
Its a laundry room, I’m sure there are some. Just don’t eat them.
The Internet was especially weird for those couple of months.
watch as the next sequence of events is basically her trying to keep joe as far away from her til she’s ‘recovered’ (tho i imagine hard to do w/ her own schedule and becky/dina and joe having a class with joyce too lol)
Or the next sequence contains Dotty hearing Joyce call out her name at the moment of climax, and realising that Joyce has a huuuuuuuge crush on her (which I imagine is a large part of why Joyce let herself be railroaded into this session of “tension relief” in the first place! 😀
That guy she was after back in La Porte might be even more embarassing (pronounced “fun for us”).
Bout the fuck time.
best storyline ever willis still got it
This is how a fetish starts probably
(In the future)
Joe: Marry me.
Joyce: Before I answer, I must confess. I have a fetish for…doing laundry.
Joe: Marry me faster
Still squicky, IMHO.
Yeah really hoping this storyline finishes up quickly now that Joyce has finished up quickly
For science, would you share if IMHO means to you “in my humble opinion” or “in my honest opinion”?
I learned it as humble and always interpreted that way; then I saw some internet essay about how many people think the h means honest, which changes the whole meaning. Now I don’t know what to think when I see it.
Well all my opinions are honest so to me it means humble
It’s “Humble”. People who think it’s “Honest” are like people who think “lol” stands for “Lots Of Love”.
Seriously, what’s “IMNSHO” supposed to mean then?
(I go beyond Not So Humble Opinions and straight on into IMAO.)
In My Arrogant Opinion…
(I’m 100% with the “Lots of Love” take)
Oh, I use IMNAAHO. But only when I am certain.
I’m partial to IIIIYLBFGBABMTCITS
Yeah you two lost me and I’m reading the end of Taffy’s as”grabmybongoytits” which… If I was trying to share my opinion with somebody and they grabbed me there and called me/them bongoy (wondering if that will get through the censors or not incidentally) I would be unamused.
I do have a migraine as a contributing factor but often do so 🤷🏻♀️
Hahaha it becomes bongo even in compound words! Amazing!
In the first D&D campaign I joined as a player, our Barbarian’s name was Captain Bongo Tits, and he was a vampire pirate (a vampirate, if you will (and you will)) who used the anchor from his ship as a weapon By the end of the campaign, he’d enchanted it with at least half a dozen runes that would explode with different elemental powers, so even a crappy attack would net him at least 20 damage. He also managed to survive an “Everyone dies in a pocket dimension” ending by resurrecting in his coffin afterward and became a recurring ally in the sequel. He also kept getting new titles, and I think the last time I checked he was something like Arch-Count Commander Admiral General Bongo Tits, Sr. or something equally lengthy.
PFARGTL? FHQWHGADS?
U kno me?
And like people who believe smh means “so much hate”.
I just think it’s a misspelling of “SMN”.
(That’s short for Summoner, for those who don’t have good taste in video games)
I struggle mightily with the abbreviation for black lives matter
(in case anyone thinks sdrainbow is being gross and isn’t familiar with the game, in FF14, you can play as various iconic classes from Final Fantasy, and each class gets a 3-letter abbreviation in the game. One of them is Black Mage, which gets BLM.)
I’ve been watching the YouTube channel Playframe play Paper Mario and it’s hilarious watching him stumble over Rogueport Direct Mail as “Red Mage”.
Or maybe you English people should start writing full sentences! >:(
Joking aside, as a foreigner it’s always been very hard to “decode” this stuff. Maybe it’s got to do with my brain (I can almost feel the translation flow jump gears when I encounter these written shortcuts) more than it has to do with my native language (I feel like abreviation of phrases started to become more regular around my teenage years, after text messages anf celphones became a thing, and I feel like the number wasn’t nearly as prominent in English, but I’m kinda old for “language standards” and I could be wrong.)
Nowadays you can just google them, I suppose, and get the meaning of these little encriptions. But before that, being an English learner and encountering “imo” “lol” “mvm” “tbf” was very hard, and you could only relly on the other person to know what they meant. And since this stuff comes from “cultural” preset phrases you use rather than logical relationships/progression, it’s very easy to mess up something.
(Long story short, I also thought it was “honest”, not “humble” xD)
I’ve never seen “IMNSHO” in my life, also, no, it’s really not the same as thinking LOL means “lots of love.” You can figure out that “lots of love” doesn’t make sense in a lot of contexts – there is literally no way to distinguish between “humble” and “honest” from context, because in practice it doesn’t actually change the meaning or usage of the phrase.
Who says that? That’s too long to be text speak. Just say imo
It’s honest and the dictionary is wrong for saying it humble
In my humble opinion is a stupid phrase
How can an opinion be humble? You dont have to ascribe traits to your opinion just say the opinion.
…yes i did rewatched Bojack Horemans The Telescope last night ..
Sure, for science. “Humble” is the way I learned it and the way I use it.
Yep, concur. I maintain that Dorothy’s actions throughout the storyline have been the risk equivalent of “smoking at a gas station”, and maxim 43* continues to apply.
* (“If it’s stupid and it works, it’s still stupid and you’re lucky.”)
Oh so now she can listen to “no” when Joyce isn’t visibly uncomfortable but she can’t notice Joyce is visibly uncomfortable when Joyce is just stammering and running on autopilot due to being intimidated. Ok.
Dorothy got her way so now its cool
… Had to go back and check, but Joyce never actually said “no” in this entire sequence. (Well, the word came out of her mouth in other contexts, but not related to this.) Joyce was still clearly uncomfortable and that’s not okay… but there was never an explicit “no” for Dorothy to listen to.
You said the keyword. She was uncomfortable and Dorothy was being extremely forceful, declaring she WILL teach Joyce to masturbate soon after Joyce yelled at everyone to leave the sex topic alone.
Yes. Consent isn’t “they didn’t say no”. Whatever comes next, Dorothy has abused Joyce’s friendship and should be considered an abuser. Not going to be posting for a while because of reasons not unrelated to this strip.
Yeah Joyce seems real torn up about it.
Just because you ended up enjoying it, doesn’t mean it’s not abuse
Abuse is when my friend invites me out to do something new and I go along without complaint and get more into it as we go.
Remember when Joyce asked Dorothy if she was /allowed to leave/ if she calls it stupid?
Like, she didn’t even end up leaving. The question was not for the purpose of punctuating her leaving.l It was a genuine question of what kind of situation she was in.
This, uh, this is quite a…Hm. I guess I should ask, are you really meaning to say that Joyce doesn’t get to decide what is and what isn’t abuse re: her own body?
Joyce… Hasn’t called this abuse. People in the comments are calling it abuse on her behalf.
Well, isn’t that the point though?
It seems like people are bound and determined to paint this as some kind of molestation by a manipulative creep, enacted upon a helpless victim who can’t stand up for herself if she feels violated. That’s A read, I suppose.
Here’s the thing though. She DID stand up for herself. She loudly and openly declared she wanted the sex topic and especially the topic of her and Joe to be left alone.
Dorothy just didn’t care, cos her unresolved things with Walky are more important for her.
Two separate events, with time in between. Whatever.
Also a different context.
Context is for people I can’t bully.
Hey, maybe it’s not cool to brag about bullying people. Even if you disagree with their emotional reaction to art? Come on.
Good thing I didn’t do that, then.
I’m obliquely hinting that I think others are trying to bully people. Or I was until I had to explain it. So now I’m outright saying it.
Is it though? Dorothy said openly that her declaring she will teach Joyce to masturbate is specifically cos “you are only thinging of even the distant possibility of dating Joe of whom I do not approve cos you are horny” which was her exact rationate in the leadup to Joyce yelling at them barely half an hour before.
I guess Roz and Dorothy arguing about her like she wasn’t there didn’t have anything to do with the outburst. Nope. ONLY sex talk.
I never said it didn’t. Only that that was Dotty’s pov in that fight and she continued with that same pov when she started ordering Joyce around and then revealed it’s because it is the sacred duty of the Dotty to make Joyce masturbate, Joyce’s hangups be damned. And it’s really weird people keep saying Joyce’s hangups are only cos of her upbringing brainwashing her.
This is the same as a boyfriend nagging a girlfriend to take any next step in their relationship and the girl saying yes just to get the nagging to stop.
No.
This is a very good storyline demonstrating the difference between consent and enthusiastic consent
Joyce could be grinning ear to ear, jumping for joy, saying “YES!” at the top of her lungs the entire time, and I don’t think it would change a goddamn thing. People would still be saying the exact same shit.
Enthusiastic consent to anything sexual with Dorothy isn’t really enthusiastic consent because of Dorothy’s mind powers, Taffy. Gosh, I thought you’d understand that.
Or the difference between “I am uncomfortable with the abstract ideas about sex and purity I have built up in my head” and “I am uncomfortable with what you’re doing to me”.
Amelie, if you have a foolproof Rosetta Stone for that, I’d love to borrow it.
How do you know the difference between having uncomfortable fantasies about sex and having uncomfortable sex, without having sex? I guess you can’t, without first being comfortable with exploring those fantasies on your own at least.
I’d call it a read, but I’m not sure those people are literate.
January 23, 2023, Dorothy literally begins to tell Joyce if she isn’t comfortable with it, they don’t have to, but is fully cut off by Joyce saying no, it’s fine.
But, hey, Dorothy could have been about to say anything, I suppose.
I’m begging you, BEGGING you, to stop understanding the comic and start making up reasons for this to be a felony. Please. My son is dying and it’s his one wish.
Dorothy only said that so that she could seal a marriage contract with Hank that legally binds Joyce to her as her child and allows her to force Joyce into a baby outfit and burp her while good Americans look on helplessly. Then she will pour pink Zinfandel down Hank’s peepee while he watches, also helpless.
How does this work, legally? Read the uhhhhhhh Constitution. Yeah. It’s in there.
🤣Jesus Christ
Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here all night. Try the veal!
Do you mean White Zinfandel, which is pink in colour, or do you know of some special variant designed to be used in exactly that way… that’s maybe turquoise in colour?
I don’t think we’re supposed to call it “t*rq***se” anymore.
Are you reading this as a “No!” rather than Joyce taking Dorothy up on the offer to watch the door she made last strip?
Joyce repeatedly affirmed consent. Where on earth are you getting this?
You’re telling me you didn’t see the secret strip that only exists during the Dark Hour and explains everything? UGH. NEWBIES. Fine, here’s what happened in it: Dorothy told Joyce “I’m your mom, Joyce. I’m your literal mother now. I’m going to marry your dad and adopt you. You have to do what I say, because I’m your dad’s wife.” And Joyce said “no, I don’t want that”, and then Dorothy shot mind lasers into her eyes and said “I COMMAND THIS VESSEL NOW IN THE NAME OF THE THOUSAND-FACED MOON! GORGO! MORMO! LOOK FAVORABLY ON OUR SACRIFICES”, and Joyce went “yessss motherrrr, we exist to obey” and then they were in the hallway. See? Very simple.
I did a dramatic reading of this to my roommates.
Joyce being posessed in that second panel I see 😛
First by a Demon and then later a Fey.
Still don’t quite like this whole situation, mostly at this point shifted to. . .hey other people use those machines and it’s a very very public place, but. . .eh. I see no point of getting heated over it until the eventual climax after the fact when Dorothy makes another pointed remark about Joe or what have you.
There is no Dana, only Zuul
“You must have a lovely singing voice.”
<3
Heh heh you said “climax”.
holding hands on the washing machines………. i know the rituals are intricate
i imagine it’s not enough for dorothy but all the shippers would be going even more feral if they had simultaneous orgasms lol
Here sexy speech bubbles are the color of dried blood followed by hearts and severed plant genitals. I don’t know exactly what that means, but my guess is Joe (and Dorothy?) are racing to be the first one into the minefield.
I, for one, am loving the hearts-and-flowers motif. An excellent choice.
Another thought:
This is why “holding hands is so lewd” is a joke on teh interwebs isn’t it?
Pretty sure that’s a Homestuck reference
Now, make the saucy bongos rub cake on each other’s faces.
Not really? That’s probably more a reference to how in most anime, hand holding is portrayed as the ultimate form of intimacy.
Dorothy is developing the oddest kinks.
How soon until Joe shows up to do his laundry, and Dorothy tries to explain why she doesn’t want him to go in?
Do his laundry? He’s already done it. He just needs to get his things out of the drier.
Joe knows the code. He absolutely knows that someone standing watch outside the laundry room means shenanigans are afoot and he should come back in an hour.
Dorothy, breaking the fourth wall, like:
– Wanting for the Slipeshine, huh?
*waiting
Nah, I think you were correct enough the first time 😉
Or, as a new yorker would say, “gerra heeeeere!”.
The post-nut clarity Dorothy wants: Oh! Whew! No more Joe thoughts lmao. So silly to even consider.
The post-nut clarity Dorothy will get: Ooh, I wonder if Joe would ever make out with a dude while I watched. …Probably not Ethan or Jacob. Sadly. :< …Maybe Hat Boy!
u mean joyce but thats ok bc they have just become jo buds so they may as well be one soul
Oh, to clarify, I mean that this is the post-nut clarity Dorothy wishes Joyce would have vs. the post-nut clarity Joyce will actually have.
“Imagine how good this will feel doing it with someone as experienced as Joe!”
“Joyce no!”
“JOYCE YES~”
“It’s okay, Dorothy! Experiences don’t actually warp us and purity is a construct!”
“Yes, that’s true, Joyce, but—Joyce please put those condoms down—”
“Ohh, you’re right, I should bring a dental dam for—”
“JOYCE, NO”
Roz swoops in dressed as Robin (Jason Todd era) and her utility belt is nothing but condoms, batteries and a belt buckle full of lube.
See, if Dorothy was actually a maniacal, villainous schemer she would’ve asked Roz to encourage Joyce to go bang Joe, because I can’t think of anything that would kill Joyce’s interest quicker than that.
That belt buckle sounds slimy and impractical
The during-nut clarity Dorothy expects: Ohhhhh yessssss….oh JOOOOOE!
The during-nut clarity Dorothy gets: Ohhhhhh yessssss….DOROTHY YES!!!
Dorothy: Ô_Ô
Something about Dorothy’s face in the third panel is amusing me.
Was kind of expecting this to be her o face: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/02-turning-saints-into-the-sea/kindasorta/
That … That is how girls get weeded out of the gene-pool.
I’m curious if she navigated to better amber fics
Sweet mystery of life, at last I’ve found you!
This way Dorothy can keep watch in case somebody comes by.
Heheh. Comes.
*Skyrim voice* NEVER SHOULD HAVE COME HERE
As much as this arc has felt like a complete tonal whiplash, this strip makes it all worth it
“I needed to leave.”
You know, there’s even a thematic resonance there since that also involved Dorothy and orgasms.
That’s what we in the business call “reaching the climax of the story”.
Heyoooo
Yeah, the whole concept is nuts.
This comment thread is quickly edging towards losing it, imo.
Edging? 🧐
I have been wondering how much longer were gonna focus on these goons, yeah.
There will be loads of trouble.
It’ll be a real sticky situation!
all of these comments are innundendos revulving around orgasm!
Loving Dorothy’s expression. Presidential.
Last panel looks like shes trying to listen in to whats going on
Doesn’t this result in a wet mess? Geez, anyway, I knew it wasn’t gonna be a slipshine. They’re just best friends lol
Just gals being pals…but actually.
I would imagine it’s going to have more of a lingering aroma, especially if it’s like most dorm laundry rooms and is damp as hell in there.
Yes…”best friends”. I guess it’s not gay to hold hands with your bestie as she tries to get off, at your encouragement, as long as you stop and leave right at the moment she’s about to climax. This is just Dorothy doing what any friend would do…Yup.
Look, I Kinsey that this is totally straight! You won’t convince me otherwise!
There is queerly nothing remotely gay going on!
i mean, idk if joyce would be a ‘squirter’ but i imagine they’d be prepared with a towel maybe and a change of clothes once things finish drying
Probably nothing a Taco Bell napkin won’t fix.
Not necessarily. If you squirt, yes, and if not maybe like, a damp patch that probably wouldn’t go through a second layer of clothes (were she wearing one) at most. Sometimes all the lubrication, despite increasing, stays internal
Not typically….
Maybe in Joyce’s underwear but unless she wets herself (which Dorothy thankfully circumvented) i doubt it’ll get much further
And there is no was the dryer is good enough to make her squirt
ADORABLE
P.S. This is gonna backfire on Dorothy sooo baaaaddddd.
Yeah. I mean, the recent bonus strip featuring Joe is just one part of a very obvious breadcrumb trail.
Possibly, but I’m really glad to see Joyce owning this experience.
Yeah, I’m actually weirdly proud of her? For being brave? That shame is so deeply ingrained, but she’s pushing against it with help from a friend. She’s gonna be fine.
Yes, absolutely. Dorothy just played herself like she was President of Tetris.
Not to be confused with playing WITH herself, which Joyce just—*canned laughter*
More like Cumbing of A– hm
*plays Leave (Get Out) by JoJo and Could It Be Magic by Donna Summer as intermissions*
Wouldn’t it be funny if Dorothy didn’t turn her dryer on, haha smile?
Ngl, this whole arc has been kinda’ hitting some weird vibes, and this one just tops them all.
It’s been an intensely uncomfortable ride, and certainly not of the good kind of uncomfortable, and doesn’t really seem true-to-character for either of them.
Willis decides what’s in-character, and Joyce has been changing a lot lately
But it is possible for authors to write characters, even ones loosely based on their own experiences, who change in unsatisfying ways. The problem isn’t necessarily with what they change into, but how effectively the emotional/logical reasons are conveyed to the audience.
The time skip was a way to reintroduce the energy of early DoA – even if you were aware of the characters already, many had undergone changes, and sussing out specifics of the characters consumed the first few books. It was very reveal-heavy, and only later started really mixing and matching the characters after we had fully established the angels and demons of these new versions of the characters. I think this is supposed to be a surprising and intriguing situation, but the surprise and confusion is obviously resulting in a bad flavor for some, even if I’m really enjoying how off-kilter it’s put me.
I’m flabbergasted at how the comment section has been reacting to this storyline. My university social circle was pretty tame, and this would have maybe rated a 3/10 on our scale of wacky hijinks. Sexual experimentation is one of the hallmarks of young adulthood, and this is pretty dang mild.
Readers also decide what falls within their suspension of disbelief.
I find it hard to believe these are the same characters acting in ways that are coherent to how they’ve been portrayed in the past.
Agreed
Yup.
It’s seemed pretty plausible to me. Dorothy thinks Joe is a terrible match for Joyce, and after verbal discouragement has failed to steer them away from each other, Dorothy is trying something more drastic: alleviate Joyce’s unmet physical needs so she doesn’t need Joe as an outlet for them, and could gain Post-Nut Clarity besides. (This seems likely to backfire, really…)
Joyce is on board because she has nigh-complete trust in Dorothy, as they are best friends, and I’m not sure she’s pieced together yet that Dorothy IS trying to steer her away from Joe (Dorothy is cagey about it because saying it out loud is a line she dares not cross). But Joyce’s upbringing has left a lot of sex-negative debris all over her psyche, so even as she’s trying to shed it, she’s got imaginary rules for how she is and is not forbidden to orgasm (“can’t use fingers, must be an accident according to certain criteria, must not count as Touching Oneself”)
I think at some point she needs to confront how vaguely the term “hussy” is even defined. If touching oneself makes one a hussy, would she dare to apply that label to Dorothy? To Becky? To every woman she has ever met, likely including her own mother?
I wonder what Dorothy will say once she realizes this has only made Joyce more likely to try to sleep with Joe
“My petard! The one I thought would never try to hoist me!!”
I think that’s where the “punching a wall” might finally come in XD
maybe if he had gary’s ‘swirly’ powers from ma3 i can def see things going that way if she’s not ready for full on sex
Cue obligatory “Ah, a fellow person of culture, I see.”
I actually think that Joyce is going to be ready to bang Joe faster than he’s ready to bang her. Like, it’s not a lack of want, but he’s going to REALLY want to be sure she’s ready.
Then again, he did also scold Danny for not taking Billie’s interest as seriously as he should have given she wasn’t drunk or crying, or however he phrased it, so I don’t think his hesitation will be in a patronizing flavor.
What Joe did is completely dismiss the possibility that Danny didn’t want to. He demanded a justification–an acceptable excuse that would permit Danny not to have sex. And then he dismissed those reasons even though they also made perfect sense.
Remember that Billy outright told Danny she expected to regret it. Danny didn’t mention that part to Joe, but Joe also didn’t let him before declaring his “excuse” invalid.
A few commenters backing up Joe at the time as though he’d had a point was… odd.
I think the issue is yeah, Danny not telling that relevant information.
Because Joe cut him off any time he said anything other than a Joe-approved excuse for not sexing.
Oh, absolutely, especially after what happened with Liz, I think that Joe will be the vulnerable one, all “I don’t want to ruin you forever” and such.
I had the same thought. Dorothy thinks she won. All she did was show Joyce what she’s been missing. Also, the washing machine isn’t going to express its love for Joyce, and I think Joyce is likely to be heavily into romance. Sucks for Dorothy. Seems fair to me.
Directed by Jordan Peele.
Is that a famous porn director?
He directed the thriller film “Get Out” 😛
Joyce came so hard she became Jean Jacket
“Can I come back in?”
“Nope.”
Had she been asked to stay, Dorothy might need to ask her to define “us”.
“Come on Dorothy! Do we need to define it? We were already inseparable anyway. we’re basically Tethered”
You capiltalised “Tethered” and that makes me nervous for some reason.
This inJordanate use of caPeeltalization makes you nervous? No reason whatsoever, I assure you.
now, you won’t mind if i have a cup of tea, surely? tell me about your mom.
Now that this situation has concluded I’m a little Dorothy’s plan here. What’s the end game? I know she’s anti Joe dating, but I don’t know how this is actually going to work. Joyce is still going to be attracted to Joe. This was a lot to do just for an outcome that’s not guaranteed. If anything it only increases the likelihood Joyce will bang Joe now that she knows how an orgasm feels and Joe is her most easily available man. So what else did she get from this?
Dorothy got the endorphins from Helping, which she legitimately enjoys doing—not as a sinister method of control, just, like, it’s one of her love languages, she genuinely enjoys helping and teaching, and I imagine she also got the relief of watching a plan come together (hur hur) as it should, as someone who’s very goal-oriented. It’s like how she felt pretty great about her stats-based approach to becoming RA, back in the day.
She has forgotten how that went afterwards.
Maybe Dorothy is thinking that if every time Joyce gets horny over Joe she can just take care of her physical needs and thats that
It sort of shows up Dorothys major flaw in that she is all about knowledge and book learning but has little practical experience (as show when she went up against Roz in trying for the DA position)
Dorothy thinks masturbation takes care of physical needs but, in my experience anyway, it merely makes you want more plus she has no idea about Joyces and Joes recent connection
Dorothy hasn’t bothered to find out because, in her mind, she already knows what the problem is (Joyce is horny) and how to fix it (talk her into public masturbation)
Or I’m completely wrong
I think you nailed Dotty pretty spot on here. Add in sticking it to Roz on top of cock blocking Joe, and she’s only going to be sad about Walky moving on for like three days tops.
Where I think this combined read is correct: Dorothy does not have the practical knowledge or foresight she needs to make a smarter decision here (because she is 19)
Where I think this read is incorrect: that Dorothy is so goal oriented she’s like an android
Where I am completely lost: Gloating over her supremacy over Roz and Joe will make her forget she was ever sad about Walky somehow
Yeah, I don’t think that it’s related, really. She wasn’t no longer sad about him due to the Yale acceptance, she was still upset, and would be here, too.
Though it hasn’t really come up lately, it’s more that Dorothy wants to be so goal oriented she’s like an android, but she keep sabotaging herself with things like boyfriends.
I took it as more “Walky going to her for love advice spurred Dotty to do *something* for a personal win, and that something was Joyce.”
Caveat’s for hyperbole of course.
Good for her.
I sincerely, sincerely, want everyone who feels squicked, creeped, or grossed out on behalf of Joyce to consider if it is themselves who are feeling boundaries stepped on. It’s ok to feel however one feels about it. I’m just wondering if anyone is projecting their feelings onto Joyce without realizing it.
I think that realizing it, if that is indeed the case, is a lot better because they can step away and do self-care, reflect on themselves and what they are comfortable with seeing. If not, it’s hard to grapple with a comic we have no way of changing. And I think less suffering is good, probably?
Just a thought. I hope it helps at least one person. Somtimes untangling my feelings helps me calm myself, in a number of situations.
I’m glad someone said this. The constant infantilizing of joyce in the comment section and acting as if she is incapable of having any agency of her own and is just a nonstop victim has really been bothering me and I’ve been avoiding the comments because of it.
Ultimately when we read fiction, we all bring parts of ourselves to it and everyone is going to get a different read based on their background. I get the impression that some commenters have some complex issues related to intimacy and boundaries that they need to unpack. And while I probably can’t understand exactly where they are coming from, the read I’ve been getting from this is a very different one and a perspective I think some folks here could benefit from understanding.
People sometimes worry so much about “protecting” innocent-seeming/sheltered friends that they ironically end up doing the very thing they’re claiming to protect the person against (taking away their agency). I was a lot like Joyce when I was younger (minus the super religious upbringing). I was sheltered, socially awkward, and lacked the worldly experience of my friends. But often their attempts to “help” and “protect” would come off fairly condescending, and leave me feeling powerless, like I wasn’t allowed to decide for myself what I was and was not comfortable with because everyone around me kept insisting I needed to be protected.
Joyce is a fictional character so has no actual agency or boundaries or any of that, but the way people talk about this character gives me those same over-protective, controlling, “I know what’s best for you” vibes which is super ironic because it’s often while attempting to insist another character is doing that to her.
In general I get the impression some people are uncomfortable with Joyce as a character ever expressing or acting upon sexual desire, and see any action in that direction as somehow “wrong” or assume it must be a violation of boundaries even when she has been given an out and clearly chose not to take it.
One possibility is people seeing Joyce as childlike in her innocence and I really hope that’s not what’s going on here, but if it is, people really need to do some self-examination of why they see a sheltered autistic person as automatically incapable of having adult agency and adult feelings. I’ve been the sheltered ND adult who was infantilized and it’s a profoundly uncomfortable, and frankly dehumanizing feeling.
Or maybe this is because some people don’t understand the kind of shame joyce is dealing with…this isn’t a character who has zero interest in anything intimate and is genuinely drawing a line about what she wants to experience. This is a character who has been conditioned to believe she is wrong or shameful for having these feelings and wanting these experiences. It’s a different sort of discomfort and discomfort in that context does not always mean “I am uncomfortable with this situation because I feel my boundaries are being violated,” it can often mean, “I am uncomfortable with this situation because I never learned how to be comfortable in it, or was never taught that it was okay, and I’m battling my own internalized shame.” And the read I’ve been getting from Joyce during this is very much the latter.
Yeah Dorothy has at times pushed Joyce’s boundaries too far, but we literally just saw joyce put her foot down about that recently so we KNOW she is capable of telling Dorothy to back off if she’s really feeling uncomfortable.
Sometimes I really wish people would just…let the story play out, see what happens, see how the characters react, instead of projecting their own feelings and hang ups onto them and insisting every day that x character is abusing y character and y character lacks the ability to realize or admit it…only to have the storyline not go that direction at all and then people get upset when the personal version of the character they have crafted in their head isn’t actually how the character was supposed to be written and act like that is somehow Wrong.
I know fiction can evoke strong feelings, and people seem to have a LOT of them about this comic, but if you’re at the point where a character’s arc is making you personally uncomfortable not because it’s clearly problematic, but because it isn’t following the narrative you’d come up with based on your own issues or history, it may be helpful to take a step back for a bit.
And I’m not saying this to be insulting. I get it. Sometimes we think we’re seeing ourself in something and it can be frustrating when that turns out to not be true because the connection we had to the story suddenly takes a sharp left turn, I’ve been there. But ultimately this isn’t our story, it’s someone else’s, to tell as they see fit.
Thanks. This is reality a beautiful analysis of the whole situation that is happening here.
This is a good point. What threw me off specifically was how it was framed around Dorothy’s intense dislike for Joe and her desire to suppress the budding romance between him and Joyce.
Like, Dorothy clearly feels Joe is a creep. Yet almost immediately after expressing this, we get an arc about her teaching Joyce something sexual in a rather intrusive way. It just comes off as hypocritical and super shady.
Re: the Joe thing I actually agree 100% that Dorothy’s behavior and opinions there are misguided. She lacks the omnipotent knowledge we as readers have and thinks she’s “protecting” Joyce, whereas we know Joe is being quite gentlemanly about this whole thing and genuinely likes Joyce and is frankly ceding all the power to her so far.
So I will be delighted if Dorothy thinks she has this problem “solved” but Joyce continues moving forward with Joe because Dorothy did not understand the situation properly at all.
My comments here aren’t necessarily a defense of Dorothy’s choices or actions here. And yeah this whole sequence was somewhat odd and I wasn’t sure what I thought of it. But the one thing I was sure of was that the insistence that Joyce has no agency in this scenario and is totally being manipulated or having her boundaries violated and is totally helpless, was really grating on my nerves.
I can’t make affirmative statements about any of the characters’ motives or future plans or whatever, obviously, but the infantilization was hitting a bit too close to home and I thought it might be helpful for people to see it from another perspective.
Well written Autogatos. I think a part of the problem is the strip-a-day drip-drap of a webcomic. If this was a traditional comic, people would read this and the next weeks pages in a few minutes, and the impact would be different.
Yeah agreed, in general it’s tough when stories unfold slowly! This is why I only binge-watch tv shows. XD I can’t handle the slow rationing out of plot and character development because things that are confusing or frustrating are just magnified so much when isolated as the “one story you’re getting this week”
It’s a bit easier with comics that’re daily but even those I often tend to save up and binge in large portions.
Yeah, for me it was the whole “She was roofied at a party not long ago, just told people to cut the sex crap, and then Dorothy decided she needed to get her rocks off” that weirded me out.
But hey, it looks like it’s ended well. I still think it was weird of Dorothy, and I’m not gonna be able to look at her the same way (though that’s mostly because of her motivations here I’ll admit), but this does look like a push that helped Joyce more than anything.
I just hope she hasn’t created a monster lol
*clap* Thank you!
Yes! This! Very, very much this. Joyce is repressed, but she’s not a child!
Exactly! Sometimes people like Joyce need someone to…give them permission. Multiple times, and gently guide them towards things they actually do want but are afraid to admit they want. And that is *not* the same thing as someone forcing a friend into a situation they really do not want and are not okay with.
And yeah it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference. But I think at this point Joyce has made it pretty clear which of these options this scenario was for her.
It’s clear NOW. It WASN’T clear at the beginning of the storyline, which is exactly where all the contention was.
And it does get complicated and confusing…because repressed, sheltered people are often trying to/wishing they could break out of feeling like they need permission, wishing they could reclaim some agency, while at the same time still sometimes needing a supportive friend saying “it’s fine for you to want/do this” and nudging them there.
I think we saw this internal conflict in joyce pretty clearly when she blew up at Dorothy for being so up in her business over the birth control and then moments later asked Dorothy to sign her up for figure drawing. Yeah Dorothy is sometimes too controlling, but also Joyce is used to being controlled, and may at times feel more comfortable with someone else taking the lead. She’s still learning when she does and does not want to take control of a situation and still learning how and when to be her own advocate. And I know this is a difficult concept for many people to understand (and I get why) but in that confusing situation, sometimes having someone else take control of a situation you have been stressing over can be a relief.
Lol sorry for multi-replies, just scatterbrained tonight and keep thinking of more points to clarify.
An example that might be helpful for folks still not entirely getting this: (again s someone who has a lot of the same hang ups and lack of assertiveness as Joyce) I often ask my husband “permission” before buying things, even small things. Which sounds to an outside observer who lacks context like a toxic controlling scenario. Except I‘m doing it for *me*. He does not care whether or not I ask him before buying new socks or whatever, and definitely never asked me to do this, but as someone who grew up with weird guilt about buying things for myself, asking someone else for permission makes it more comfortable for me. (And over time I’ve been able to do it less and less as I’ve gotten older and more confident and worked on the sources of that guilt)
In that same sense, as someone who has a lot of learned guilt/shame about sex, Joyce may feel more comfortable with this because “it was Dorothy’s idea, she told me to.” When you’re judging *yourself* negatively for something you should not be judging yourself for, and would not judge someone else for, sometimes it helps to be able to deflect responsibility a bit onto someone else who you don’t judge for it. Because then it feels more like sound guidance from someone whose opinions you respect, rather than a “Wrong” choice you made for yourself.
Like I said it’s super complicated and doesn’t always make sense if you haven’t been in that mindset. But if you have, it’s ironically a weird way of learning ti claim your own agency, rather than having your agency taken away, if that makes any sense.
Thank you all for this thread.
Nicely written Autogatos. Thanks for sharing.
I’ll be perfectly frank, I’m projecting my feelings onto DOROTHY.
I was at college myself in the very first days where folks were STARTING to talk about moving from “no means no” to “yes means yes” models, and I have seen “yes means yes” combined with “eh, okay” and less-than-enthusiastic consent blow RIGHT the fuck up over a lot of lives, either with people who felt victimized after the fact or people (like me!) who felt like abusers after the fact even if it mostly turned out okay and the other party didn’t feel particularly victimized but didn’t enjoy the experience.
Personally, I STILL feel like Dorothy could easily have crawled out of her own ass long enough to do more than perfunctory checking in, but I also recognize that it’s not particularly in character for Dorothy to second-guess a plan in progress.
Dorothy, I don’t think you know what you’ve done here.
Joyce’s vision all turning into the Terminator’s HUD, the words: TARGET — JOE ROSENTHAL scrolling across her field of view
I half suspect that what got her there was navigating away from the fanfic and to Joe’s Instagram page
Headcanon HELLA accepted.
I’ll wager you 20 e-cookies that Joyce is looking at Dorothy’s instag page rather than Joe’s.
Also my new headcanon nick for Joyce is “Juicy Joycy”. ;D
If this scenario somehow ends with Joyce and Dorothy joined in sapphic unity, rather than Joyce feeling free to pursue her Joe-related hunk fantasies, I will choose a truly unfortunate gravatar and wear it for a full three months in shame.
a time-honoured tradition.
I should clarify that by scenario I mean the whole…arc we’re in, lmao
Oooh, that sounds like a forfeit! xD And if it ends with Joyce running back to Joe to “unite”, then I’ll choose my most unfortunate avatar and leave it that long. 😉
Then we have an accord! 😀
That would be one way to keep her away from Joe, I suppose. At least it gives her an excuse.
Maybe she was
lying/misyaken about about being Kinsey 0.Do girls get Post-Nut Clarity? I feel like despite releasing Joyce’s pent-up needs, post-nut clarity might indeed bring her to a decision regarding whether to date Joe, to Dorothy’s bafflement.
I mean, like…Becky just had a really good talk with her about how experiences don’t make you impure or alter the core of who you are (one of her big hurdles re: sex)…Dorothy just kiiiinda offered the comfort and pleasure of a sex partner who’s willing to go at your pace and put your needs first (please don’t @ me with WELL ACKSHUALLY)…Joe made his interest known and made it clear he wanted to wait for her and respect her decision…
It’s like poetry, you know. It rhymes.
Wouldnt Post Nut Clarity be a great name for a new cereal?
Its already a pretty entertaining song by Alemeda.
Or a rock band?
I assume any living entity that can “nut” is capable of post-that clarity. Not entirely sure how helpful it would be for, say, a moose though. Maybe they realize the whatever-meese-eat they’re eating kinda sucks and move on to a better batch of it.
Moose are incapable of feeling pleasure. They know only rage, and fury, and furious rage.
At least one moosewould probably disagree
High Voltage Taxidermy Moose is an outlier and should not be counted.
Also, your taste in music is impeccable. I hadn’t thought about Electric Six in forever and they’re still so good.
*tips hat*
Credit where it’s due, i discovered this song in a Rosalarian comic.
Rosalarian’s taste in music is impeccable.
Yeah no definitely. I’ve definitely had that moment of finishing, looking at the porn i was watching and thinking
…what the fuck is wrong with me?
It’s also just a lot easier to think clearly when you push horny out of the way
Damn, we got some new and innovate textbook augmentation at play. Dorothys handholding game is just THAT good. (everyday i half expect a slipshine announcement to drop)
lol well, the fact that there doesn’t seem to be a full on door/open doorframe is not the best sign but congrats to joyce lol.
That’s why Dorothy is keeping watch.
And before that, there really wasn’t anything to see if anyone walked in. Maybe if someone quietly eavesdropped and peeked around the corner, they’d put it together, but just walking in to get laundry would fluster Joyce, but not make it clear what she was doing.
i’d imagine even with her keeping watch it’d still be better partially closed or so unless it needs to be all the way open in case joyce needs to call out to her lol
She needed to leave.
Dorothy knows she’s not going to be around next semester so she is trying to make sure everyone is going to be ok without her. That’s why she didn’t get back together with Walky, and fixed her up with Lucy instead. That’s why she’s been so pushy with Joyce; the clock is ticking.
Y’know.
Y’know.
You might be onto something there.
That’s probably a lot of it, yeah. I do wonder who’s going to find out first.
I’m half-surprised she didn’t tell Ruth. Then again, maybe she has already.
Yeah, she’s been acting really weird and intense ever since she got diagnosed with Yale. I’m really eager to see her breaking point, if there even is one.
I’ve had the same thought. She’s getting ready to move on, so she’s determined to leave everyone better off than how she found them. Like a girl scout.
Cloth dryers are better than people!!
Joyce, don’t you think is true??
Yeah, people would roof you, and curse you and cheat you..
Everyone of them is bad except youuuu
(Dorothy hums in her head and smiles to herself)
Yes, don’t ruin the moment.
Posts here with people concerned about door frames and characters making up complex plots of manipulation, and i’m more like: eyup, SOMEONE is gonna have to clean up the massive snail trail this little event is going to cause.
I’m also 1: not look at those damn public laundry machines the same way anymore and 2: in any opportunity that shows, say to some girl i’m friends with: “hey i think i saw you sitting on top of a dryer before, whyfor?” and observe her reaction.
http://achewood.com/index.php?date=09052007
I’m holding out for a bonus strip of the facilities manager talking to his friend about like this, just replace “couch” with “dryer”.
🤣🤣
While we’re trading compliments, i commend your own tastes in comics, as i also hadn’t thought about Achewood in forever XD *chef’s kiss*
Hahaha, thanks. 🙂 Achewood is hugely important to me, as a knucklehead from the day.
Between this and the fact that there were a lot of folks coming out as fellow Sea Wolves in these threads, I am finding myself on the opposite side of the debate from a lot of folks I share fandoms with. =P
I want the comic where we find out Dorothy had already figured out all the best times to use the laundry room for this purpose, hence why she’s so cavalier about public discretion here. Even if that comic ends with Joe turning the corner to do his laundry.
Except it was important that the drier was already running and warm.
Which means the person who turned it on was just there and is coming back.
Easy. Dorothy turned the machines on to make sure they were nice and warm, then went up to get Joyce and came back, ahem…I mean, went down with her. 😉
Why do I have this overwhelmingly curiousity to know just what Joyce has been staring at on her phone all this time?
It’s this comments section. Polarizing #discourse is her kink.
I love the idea that this comments section is the content, but that’s not the kink. The kink is that the only thing strong enough to get past Joyce’s repression is the extreme sensation of realizing you are fictional character without any will of your own
So… Joyce’s kink is achieving CHIM?
Ooh! I understood that reference!
I would’ve thought polarizing discourse is Roz’s kink, considering
They can share.
Nice reminder for me, to give up Twitter.
no, I won’tWhat?
We know what it is.
It has been established that it’s some of Amber’s fanfics that Dorothy curated especially for this very occasion.
Yeah but DOROTHY said that. To JOYCE. Considering their fucked up dynamic, it could be literally anything on that phone and Joyce wouldn’t know better. And if she suspects it’s not what Dorothy says, well, she trusts her carer enough to accept that she may be wrong.
Oh my God, it’s not fanfic at all! It’s a set of COMMAND PHRASES! Joyce is being ACTIVATED! She’s gonna GO BACK IN TIME and KILL JESUS!!!
If Joyce was sitting on a drier, not anymore, it’s not!
It is now a wetter
That’s called a hose.
She ain’t a hose just for busting one on top of a drier, but she’s definitely guilty of turning it into a wetter! 🤣
Username checks out.
Of course, after all, there is no such thing as coincidence
Man, the person who’s about to walk in to collect their dry clothes is gonna… I don’t know.
They’re gonna walk in, see Joyce blushing furiously and looking around for no reason, maybe raise an eyebrow, and if she’s still on their machine they might ask her to move. I don’t expect much else. Dorothy’s keeping watch for a reason.
Yeah, really don’t know what people expect here.
“Oh. I’ll be back in a few minutes. Please remember to wipe the machine down.”
honestly just glad this specific interaction is over 😅
Is it?
Nah, there might still be a scene where dotty has to carry a passed out joyce on her shoulders in army of two style.
I feel weird about how many people are grossed out by this! Yeah, Dorothy trying to get Joyce and Joe apart is obnoxious, but she’s definitely not wrong about Joyce being super repressed, and sexual experimentation with friends (and dryers!) is kind of a major part of college for a lot of queer kids? (And some straight people, I assume.) Like, I’ve known people who had the only straight sex of their lives on a college dare, people who found out they were bi doing stuff remarkably similar to this, and people who would just straight-up ask casual friends how often they masturbated, out of sheer curiosity, and be confused at why they were getting embarrassed. I know it’s not everyone’s experience, but this really, really looks to me like your average friends-muddling-through experience – even Dorothy’s kinda bad motivations.
Other than the part where there’s not been any concern about anybody walking in on them, this comes off to me (oh-ho-ho) as cute more than anything. And part of the bonus of laundry machines is that unless you’re being super obvious, even if someone does come in, you can just pretend you’re waiting for a load to finish (oh-ho-ho!) if they ask why you’re sitting there. And I assume Dorothy is going to engage anybody who walks up to the room in conversation for a couple minutes, to warn Joyce – that’s what I’d do, anyway.
Like, I get it. Joyce was like “OH I could NEVER not EVER I’m not LIKE that,” but also, self-deception is a thing, and having friends who call you on it is good, and while it would obviously be better and healthier for Dorothy to have said “Are you doing this out of habit, or do you really not want to experience sex? Are you protesting because you want to be persuaded, or because you don’t want to do it?” buuuuuuut one of the things I love about this comic is that the characters don’t all talk like they’re therapists in training.
Anyway, nobody is wrong for feeling their feelings, and I don’t do comments anymore, but I just wanted to say I think it’s cool and it makes me vaguely nostalgic for undergrad experiences, if not-at-all undergrad lack of experience.
Yeah.
Repressed people, maybe…
(Just loved your post, anyway)
Lucky Joyce didn’t even have to risk dying of embarassment by asking, “…would you be there? Because, I know it sounds weird, but I don’t want to do this alone. Not yet.”
Frankly, it reminds me of some undergrad experiences that DIDN’T end with everyone having happy fun times, but bitter recriminations and regrets the next day.
Joyce did nothing wrong in this strip–she’s clearly not actually annoyed at Dorothy, she just doesn’t need her support anymore and wants privacy now that she’s ready. It’s a very chill and cute comic. It will also be the first comic in this series to unite the romantics and the critics in condemnation.
we’ve been had again, folks. I still believe in the Valentine’s Day Catastrophe theory, but… I am not sure we’re getting it this year.
i am of course being tongue in cheek but YES a part of me did hold out hope that it was about to get improbably gay
Gotta be honest, I was pretty heavily hoping that Joyce would ask Dorothy to lend a hand. Can’t have nothin’ around here.😮💨
🤞🤞
She’s just taking Dorothy up on yesterday’s offer.
As for the Valentine’s disaster, this doesn’t have to be it. There’s still 2 weeks to finish off Walky and Lucy.
Or, in the wake of this, Joyce and Joe could run aground. (For a bit, they’re still very likely endgame.)
No, the Valentine’s Day Disaster is a very specific theory I have had for months that the Dorothy/Joyce ship, in a one-sided attempt to set sail, will collapse the whole harbor and throw the whole arrangement of Dina, Dorothy, Becky, Joe and Joyce into chaos.
Oh? I’ve missed that, would you care to tell us it?
Okay, so the original theory went like this:
At some point down the line, Joyce will, in an emotionally vulnerable or reckless state, kiss Dorothy. Or make some similar overture. Dina, Becky and any potential romantic partners for Joyce/Dorothy will all find out about this in different ways–like Becky walking in on them. This predictably throws Becky’s relationships with Dorothy and Joyce into chaos for different reasons, which also causes a rift between her and Dina, whose big insecurity in the relationship has always been “I’m just the rebound and she’s still into Joyce”. Meanwhile, Dorothy either doesn’t reciprocate or is confused. Everyone is in emotional turmoil and it’s potentially up to someone like Sarah to help fix things, much to her consternation.
I really thought (and still half-think) we were heading towards the Catastrophe here. Not only would have been the perfect moment for one of these two to realize they have Feelings and for Becky (or whoever) to walk in on them, we’ve also spent the last few chapters making Dorothy feel more challenged in the relationship, making her less passive and more an active pursuer of Joyce’s attentions. In other words, we’ve spent the last few chapters making things feel less one-sided, foreshadowing that maybe Dorothy could feel just as strongly as Joyce. I actually half-wonder if *Dorothy* is going to be the one to realize, “oh, crap, my Kinsey Scale Rating just jumped to 2”, and *Joyce* will be the one who feels confused.
The fact that we were coming up on Valentine’s Day made this an even more compelling theory to me. It could still happen, but Dorothy (quite understandably) leaving the room does make it a little less likely.
See, I feel like, and maybe this is just dumb shipper hope, but I honestly feel like Becky has been genuinely getting over Joyce, especially since she and Dina finally Did It and Becky and Joyce had that heart-to-heart a couple strips back. I think that one of Becky’s big trubs, that she needs to feel desired, that she needs to be wanted, has been resolved…and Dina’s own fear of being abandoned as the rebound has been dissipating with it. Maybe that’ll show up in a new way, and it’ll turn out that they were wrong to talk about marriage in the future so early, but like…I got high hopes for those crazy kids!
THAT BEING SAID, I agree with ya that Joyce/Joe/Dorothy is a powder keg waiting for a flame, and all three participants are like, coating the powder in napalm and adding thermite and shit.
My own Valentine’s Day of Disaster theorem, which has been in the slow cooker since back during the prescription pickup but then Becky and Joyce’s Big Talk upgraded the slow cooker to an Instant Pot and Dorothy Teaches Joyce To Beat It had just turbocharged things, goes something like this:
-Dorothy is going to realize, through SOME event, that she has hopped some Kinsey Scale rungs in a big way and be forced to confront this fact, and that if there is a lady she would like to get down with it is Joyce Brown
-Simultaneously to this, Joyce will make a move on the hunk of her dreams, Joe Rosenthal
-Joyce will have also realized she has feelings for Dorothy but for plot reasons, she is keeping them to herself
-Joe believes he’s not worthy of Joyce and for once he’s the one asking “are you sure, is this right”, and Joyce smoothly uses what she’s been learning to tell him “yes”
-Dorothy is racing to stop this like Ross running to the airport in Friends or some shit but you can’t stop this, this train is bound for Slipshine Station
-a Slipshine happens
-Dorothy finally hits Limit Break and we learn what it looks like when the pragmatic cool-headed super girl breaks down
-Someone plays “Mr. Brightside” over a panel montage
-Becky, Dina, and Sarah are left staring at a mushroom cloud of emotions, then the former two are abandoned by Sarah
haha both very cool theories. er, theory and theorem respectively. thanks for sharing! =)
i feel like i should come up with a competing model now! for kicks!
So, my theor..oid is that Dorothy pretends to be Joyce to break her and Joe up. the “silly sitcom” version is she stirs some shit by text. the “truly tinfoil” version is she blindfolds Joe and fucks him pretending to be Joyce. Or wait!!! she fucks… Joyce… pretending to be Joe? wow that’s even less believable! NICE. There, that’s my theory. theoroid. i’m very committed to it
Sploosh
*Command Center celebrates*
Yeah those are definitely possessed by a demon sickly sweet hearts and flowers and not “I’m literally cumming while talking toy you” hearts and flowers… so the shoe hasn’t fully dropped. Then again, it might do so between strips.
1) to you not toy you
2) have I been biting my lip this whole time? What are you doing there Daisy? Riding a dryer and or washer? Cause you look concerned and/or embarrassed?
See, it was always silly when Joe thought he was going to fix her with his penis. When what she needed was an industrial strength vibrator.
Humanity will only truly transcend its flawed biological substrate once we start grafting vibrating implants into genitals. #Transhumanism
And we have a lift-off!
WooHoo!!
Good job everyone! 😀
Don’t be too smug, Dorothy… she might have just s*** herself.
Good thing they’re in the laundry room, then.
I really hope this climaxes (*ba dum tsh*) in Joyce remembering that Dorothy only did this to control Joyce’s feelings about Joe and we still get to see Dorothy facing some kind of backlash over taking charge of Joyce’s life.
Like. People gushing over how cute this is remember that the trust and faith here is pretty one-sided, right? doing this not out of an altruistic desire to help her friend overcome her sexual hangups, but because she textually and explicitly doesn’t trust Joyce to make her own romantic desicions, right/i>?
No, I’m not bitter that Dorothy’s been consistently at like a 3 or higher on the 1-10 “kinda crummy friend scale” since the timeskip and has gotten away with it for over a year in real-life time.because the person she’s kind of a crummy friend to has her duct-taped to a pedestal, what are you talking about. I’m not the grump, you’re the grump. Harrumph.
Ah, hell, I ballsed up the tag. Now I’m a grump about THAT.
You literally don’t know that “Dorothy only did this to…”. Unless Willis states such things explicitly, your reading is just speculation, and declaring it in such a style is folly.
Personally, to me, in my own mind and in my own words, I think, personally, just me, not speaking for anyone else, I think that it’s usually, for me, much easier and more conducive to conversations I’m in, to read/listen to people’s stated motivations and, without input from anyone else, you understand, accept that they mean what they say they mean until they reveal otherwise. Myself.
What’s that slogan, again? “When somebody tells you who they are, believe them”? Is that the correct use?
Also, people rarely do anything with only one intention. We’re all complicated and tangled up.
Loosening up Joyce’s sexual repression has long been on Dorothy’s mind, well before Joe was part of the picture. The Joe thing certainly brought it back to the forefront, but it didn’t come out of nowhere.
She’s also got reason to not trust Joyce’s romantic decisions when she’s horny – remember the whole Jacob fiasco.
She literally explicitly stated that she’s doing this to get Joyce away from Joe. She said that. Out loud. To Joyce. At the beginning of this adventure.
“You need to learn before you explode into terrible decisions like considering Joe a romantic prospect.”
“Like” being an operative word here. If we are going to ignore the entire context of Joyce and Dorothy’s evolving friendship in favor of one sentence we should at the very least examine the full implication of that sentence. Dorothy isn’t doing this as a “Fuck you” to Joe, she’s doing this because she believes it will leave Joyce better prepared for the future.
Also, Dorothy, uh, laid out a pretty coherent case as to why a romantic relationship with Joe would, from her point of view, put Joyce, her beloved friend, in danger of real harm, at least emotionally, because the Joe that Dorothy knows is a Bad Dude.
Is Dorothy working off outdated information? Sure. Is her plan kind of stupid? Yes, definitely. But is her plan evil, or spiteful, or abusive? No. It’s just dumb! It can be dumb without being evil!
if that were the case, why is this comic called eviling of age, huh
checkmate
Did I call her plan evil, spiteful or abusive? Even once? No? Do you bother to read before replying at this point?
I did read your comment. I was simply pointing out that even if we simply looked at the single sentence you focused on it is still clear that keeping Joyce away from Joe is only one of Dorthey’s motives.
It is her only stated motive.
I’m confused now. Am I supposed to take people at face value when they tell me what they want or not? Am I supposed to assume Dorothy has unstated motives but only if they’re good ones?
Now it seems like it’s you who hasn’t read my original comment. She stated a broader motive; “You need to learn before you explode into terrible decisions,” and then she stated a narrower motive; “like considering Joe a romantic prospect.”
Right. Got it. Understood. Dorothy thinks Joyce can’t make rational decisions when she’s horny about Joe or other things either. That is definitely a lot more kinds of motives. You sure did show me up.
What you said exactly but without being sarcastic!
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/endgame/
But seriously, lots of very smart people have made very dumb mistakes when they are horny.
What I don’t and CONNOT fathom, is how you think any of this becomes better when Dorothy assumes that Joyce is just generally incompetent when she’s horny rather than just about Joe in particular. Is that the motive you want to defend? That’s what you want represented in this argument that you object to calling keeping Joyce from Joe her only motive?
Pretty much yeah. People do make worse decisions when their hormones are in the way, and having an outlet is a useful way to prevent that. You disagree?
Well said.
It’s no good. I can’t stop hearing Joyce’s “Leave. Get out of here” in Kosh’s voice (with the flowers representing the synthesizer noises).
“We are all Joyce.”
She has always been here.
Then Joyce sees an angel in the laundry room, and we’re back to square one…
Success.
Later…
Dorothy: “There! Now you’ve gotten that out of your system and you can forget all about Joe. (Also, in your FACE, Roz!)”
Joyce: “What? Who did you think I was thinking about?”
Dorothy: *rage*
Joyce: “So, Dorothy, I let my guard down for you. Thank you! Now it’s your turn. You don’t know everything about Joe, but I’m starting to get the idea that I don’t either. What do you know that most of us don’t? I’ll tell my story if you’ll tell me yours.”
I feel people need to chill the fuck out.
So many posters here seem to think they have the one true reading of the tone of the comic and even what is happening inside the fictional characters minds. Not only that, but they come here to preach and condemn thing based on their reading, never sparing a thought to the idea that they might have things wrong.
It’s godsdamned tiresome is what it is. A lot of you people need to get over yourselves.
The ones who come here to post about how “icky” all of this is, are also really weird. Even more so those who are 100% convinced that Dororthy is a bad guy and this is abuse. Shees…
I’m open to other people interpreting things differently. What I’m not open to is all the moral condemnation, implied or otherwise, of real human beings reacting differently to a story. That’s where all my personal backlash is coming from, at least. Can’t speak for other people.
Also, if I get over myself then nobody will be left who likes me, so for personal health reasons, I need to remain firmly up my own ass until the surgery.
It wouldn’t take much to fix it. It’s the bloody 110% certaintly in the declarations that drives me up the wall. People have a sick sense of ownership regarding the fiction they consume in general, and here they are making declarations as if they could see into the mind of the creator (or even weirder, the characters).
Just post your ideas in the style of “my reading is…”, “I feel she may be motivated by…” etc, and it’s all cool.
Don’t claim to know things you literally can’t know, people.
Okay but I went through the strenuous and expensive task of reading a 5-panel daily webcomic. I don’t think you understand how important that is, morally.
But apparently it’s even worse for you when people find this “icky”? Which is just their reaction to a comic.
Stop telling me my read is wrong, especially when it’s actually your read that’s wrong!
Eh, that just a relatively simple webcomic like this can get people to get this riled up is a good sign in my book, “lord of butts” Willis author guy must be doing something right, and has been for many years now.
@Gash I suppose it’s a sign of “engagement”. Doesn’t mean I like the way people go about “engaging”. You may be right about it being a good sign for the creator, however.
No Yumi, it’s not “even worse for me”. You are projecting, or putting words in my mouth. I do find it bizarre, and dislike the fact that some people seem to be making demands to “stop this kind of thing”. That seems seriously repressed.
Hehehehe
Willis could descend from the heavens, look me in the eyes and say “This was completely healthy and normal and everything is fine” and I would still be in here talking about why it’s not, using his own material as proof lol.
FFS… of course you would. Why wouldn’t you know his material and the minds of the characters better than the writer.
*epic eyeroll*
Maybe I wasn’t clear: I wouldn’t be trying to argue that Willis doesn’t understand his own work, I would be arguing that what he’s depicting in his work is seriously unhealthy.
He has examples *in his own work* as to why this situation is unhealthy.
I’m still holding out to see what he does, ultimately.
I don’t see Willis as having all-good and all-bad characters involved in a morality play; he’s mostly telling a story about people who got layers ‘n stuff. So fundamentally good people can do things that are very unwise. And in the years I’ve been reading, he’s super-good at it.
If it turns out OK, that doesn’t mean it was OK. The word for that is ‘lucky’. And a good character doing a misguided thing makes for an engaging story.
Later, I’d love to see a story where Dorothy walks into the wrong emotional dark alley and is confronted by some actual self-doubt.
I agree with vulcanodon. Real life is messy, and DoA isn’t a teaching tool or a morality play.
Sometimes authors write things badly and/or fail to get their intended point across clearly. To quote wikipedia on death of the author:
“[it] emphasizes the primacy of each individual reader’s interpretation of the work over any “definitive” meaning intended by the author, a process in which subtle or unnoticed characteristics may be drawn out for new insight.”
The amount of people who found the leadup the opposite of “completely healthy and normal and everything is fine” shows that, if that was the authorial intent, it did not succeed and was not written clearly enough.
“Death of the author” is such a pretentious concept. It imagines that any rando pulled off the street knows better than the author about what they meant to say. It’s taking ownership of another person’s idea and saying “Yeah, but I think it’s something else so that’s what it is”.
Yeah, death of the author is very “school-y” and a little annoying, but there is something to the idea that a large, dedicated audience can develop a collective idea about the work that, when contradicted by the author, creates tension. I don’t think it’s a good or bad thing necessarily.
Your error is applying to living author in a semibiographical story to the stand in author avatar character.
While i doubt this particular storyline is autobiographical it could be based on one.
The complaints on the comment section might be due to a separation in readership from slipshine readers.
Or the rise of online purity norms. Sarah stripped in front if Joyce and used a vibrator a decade ago. Maybe this needed more of a build up. But if you read closely Joyce admitted to being better deeply read ( less vanilla) in Amber’s smut than Dorothy.
Or alternatively the readers are missing the actual storyline that Willis is telling: Dorothy isn’t OK. And shes overcompensating by momming Joyce. ( glasses, hormones, autism, drawing class, and no sexual discovery. ) the storyline is a giant clue ( missing first word Jealousy) .
It’s quite reasonable to thing this isn’t completely healthy and normal on Dorothy’s part. That’s quite likely part of the intent.
It’s another step entirely to jump to it being abusive and basically sexual harassment, as many commentators have done over the past few days.
That’s not what Death of the Author means. You are a very confident self-professed bully, The Oracle, I’ll give you that, even if that confidence comes from a wellspring of ignorance.
Death of the Author does not mean the author has no importance, and that any random person knows better than the author. DotA describes what happens when art goes from a personal act and becomes a publicly accessible work of art. Once someone else sees your art, it ceases to be purely yours – the monologue becomes a dialogue, and viewers will bring their own selves to the work, fundamentally changing and fracturing it into a million different versions. The author no longer has control over the art, and cannot control the interpretations. This is just a fact about the world. The author’s control must die so that the art may live.
Death of the Author doesn’t mean that an author’s stated interpretation of the published work is irrelevant. It’s one of the most relevant interpretations around – but it doesn’t ever rise abobe interpretation. That’s the point. It means that an author’s post-hoc stated interpretation doesn’t magically go back and change the text. It does also kind of empower audience interpretations by saying they have the same text-warping powers as author interpretations – that is, none at all.
If knowing words by the author is required to correctly interpret the text, then those words better be in the text. If the words aren’t in the text, then they aren’t, you know, canonical to the text. They’re just some words someone said about the text. An important someone with keen insight on the text creation process! Definitely someone whose interpretation is of interest and relevance! But those words, that interpretation, is definitionally *not in the text*. Thus, any words the author says after the work is published cannot directly influence the work itself, making the author dead to the art as a creator. ((Because the artist literally can’t change the art itself anymore. Even if the artist has the ability to modify their work, you cannot guarantee that every original viewer will see the edit, thus you cannot truly change the original, only make a new version, with its own web of interpretations))
P.S. Calling a *concept* “pretentious” (instead of the way someone misapplies the concept) is a pretty big indication that you don’t actually know how to use the word “pretentious”, which would itself be kind of…
” You are a very confident self-professed bully”
I never professed anything of the sort. That’s just you calling me a bully for some reason. Knock it off.
so you’re not gonna react to Booster shot’s point that your take on the death of the author is terrible? ok.
I care more about the weird lie, honestly. So I was wrong about dead authors. I’m wrong all the time. Only thing to do about it is stop being wrong about it in the future. The stakes are as low as they get.
Very good explanation of Death of the Author! Thank you.
If that’s what it is, then I really don’t think I wanna make anything creative anymore. It’s a really upsetting concept that once I put something out there, it belongs to everyone but me and I may as well have done nothing.
You might say the hardest part about producing art is that other people will consume it.
I mean, if I make something, I want it to be experienced. I just hate the idea of me being effectively irrelevant to its existence, completely replaced by whatever idea somebody I’ll never meet wants to substitute me with.
I don’t think that’ll ever be completely true. Something you end up producing isn’t necessarily even going to be subjected to these events. Don’t give up on being creative!
Not irrelevant, but not necessarily authoritative either. As they said ” An important someone with keen insight on the text creation process! Definitely someone whose interpretation is of interest and relevance! ”
For a comic relevant example, consider Joyce’s denial that there’s any sexual tension in her comic between Julia Gray and future President Doris. 🙂
Maybe it’s the name that makes it feel so dire. “Death” of the author. “Get the author out of here.” May as well not even attach my name to it at that point. I dunno, it feels really discouraging.
Thank you Taffy, for putting into words the feeling that makes me hate the Death of the Author idea with such a passion. It’s probably always been a thing, but when it came to my personally witnessing it, I noticed in increasing trend of self-described critics and readers acting as though their interpretation of a given piece of art somehow is as good as or supersedes the direct, stated intentions and influences of the writer/artist themselves, and that their desires for a given work should somehow take precedent.
Speaking as someone who does his own writing, the idea of somebody telling me that I don’t understand my own work or that they know what I meant better than I did or that their desires for *my* story are more important than mine is an idea that I find incredibly arrogant, insulting, and grating. It sets my teeth on edge.
Ironically, the conceptual basis behind DotA is kind of an example of itself–in the sense that if the idea was to promote a dialogue between artist and audience (as Booster Shot put it), it fails in communicating that idea in a way that an artist fail to communicate theirs effectively, given that the most common understanding of the concept of DotA is that the author’s will is effectively rendered irrelevant.
I will say that the idea itself of an author being separate from their work isn’t wholly without merit–Andrew Hussie proved that himself with homestuck when he interrogated the concept of Death of the Author by making it literal–but I think that should be the prerogative of the *author* to decide how integral they are to their own work, *not* the audience.
I should probably clarify: when I said I “noticed an increasing trend,” I meant “in general,” as in, I’ve been seeing more and more people do this since I was in high school, I wasn’t being specific to this webcomic or its commenters and that statement wasn’t meant to be a direct accusation or condemnation of anyone here.
@Songbird: that’s fair, the concept is provocatively worded. But it came about in a context: Roland Barthes was specifically fed up with gatekeeping academics who insisted on mastering every last detail on an illustrious author’s life before you’d be permitted to comment on their work. The intent was definitely to empower readers, not to alienate authors.
I don’t think Barthes would disagree with you, when you say that his concept has escaped from that original historical intent.
But also, arguably the essay was part of a program of thought and practice that did come to fruition. Around the same time Barthes wrote Death of the Author, feminist critics like Kate Millett were revisiting classic works and pointing out how they constructed/represented the patriarchal imagination, and so did black and queer thinkers, etc.
in other words, the necessity of the day was to knock authors down from their pedestal.
and, also arguably, this was also part of the movement that led to the foundation of cultural studies: the idea that any object in culture (fashion, advertising, pornography, genre fiction etc) was as worthy of analysis as “high art” such as classic novels and arthouse cinema.
When you publish your work, there are now two creations: yours and the beholder’s. Yours is yours and you absolutely have the right to say what it means to you. And the beholder absolutely has the right to be wrong. 🙂
DotA seems very solipsistic and entitled as a concept. It’s a viewpoint where the audience of any work can feel just as important, and as much of an authority on the work as its creator.
IMO it’s utter horse shit.
BOOSTER SHOT, your aggressive tone is way out of line, and you seem to be putting words in The Oracle’s mouth. Simmer down.
Well we have no definitive statement either way on the authorial intent of the last week or so of strips, so if that is required any claim you make to understanding the strip is thus equally flawed as mine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But that’s not actually what death of the author is about, it’s about taking what is written and drawing meaning only from the text, regardless of any author statements on their intent.
So, if Willis says that this was “completely healthy and normal and everything is fine” I would contend that the text does not do a good job supporting this in the leadup. While Joyce never says no, she also never says yes until the very end. Dorothy does tell Joyce she can say no, but also never asks for a yes this is okay.
This means we have a series of strips where, in text, Joyce only expresses uncertainty and passive acceptance, while Dorothy never actually asks if she is okay with this.
Regardless of authorial intent, myself and many others read this text and found it varying degrees of uncomfortable or inappropriate (especially when combined with other elements from the text around people respecting Joyce and her boundaries). Others, obviously, disagree with this reading.
Again, I will point out that we have, at the time of writing, no author statement on the meaning, so any claim of knowing the author’s mind or intent is as equal as any other.
As a separate example this article covers a situation where a piece of media attempted to portray something positively, but it came off badly.
Intent does matter, but ultimately the text is what we are given and have reactions to.
tl;dr: I may not know what an author meant to say, but I do know as well as anyone what they did say, and am reacting to that.
Yeah, I think more than a few people in here agree that this needed a WAY better/different lead-up if Willis has been trying to show that this is a cool, normal thing for these two.
Yeeeaaahhh basically. Like, this isn’t going bad for them and I’m glad for that, but it just feels real strange when the last, and seemingly very recent, interaction these two had before this was Joyce yelling at Dorothy and Roz to shut up about her sex life.
Following that with “I’m gonna teach you how to masturbate” just felt real jarring.
Hear, hear!
Word of god only goes so far, when it comes to fiction. The author has final choice about what occurs to their characters- legally… But the author has an implicit contract with their readership, to maintain certain foundational elements, or risk becoming decarbonized by the fandom itself (and frequently replaced by alternative ‘canon’).
With that being said, it’s not like the readers have spent very little time with these characters- if they spend just a minute on each comic, then they have spent roughly 3000 minutes, or around 50 hours real-time, with these characters- and that’s a fairly large chunk of time to get to know the expected behavior of an individual- especially when we have had repeated insight into their inner thoughts and workings, both conscious and subconscious.
With all that being said, this has not seemed remotely similar to previously established patterns of behavior for either of these characters, and seems like a rather dramatic shift for them both, in short time, and one that has been fairly uncomfortable to watch.
On top of that, at least for me, this is super-disturbing as well, that they consider this an appropriate use of a publicly shared space- do what you want with your own dryers, but respect other people (and their boundaries, explicit or implicit) enough to not intentionally misuse shared property.
*de-canonized, not ‘decarbonized’. XD
Even more so; I could spend 50 hours IRL with someone and not get to know them very well. Our 50 hours with these characters is through the storytelling filter of turning points and moments. Distillation adds effect.
That’s fair. Even with Willis’s own work, look back to his commentary on things in Roomies! that he clearly thought were good and right when he wrote them.
Authors are not any more of a moral authority on their own work than anyone else. They can certainly point out their own intent on a scene or what the character’s motivations were, but that doesn’t make them morally right.
If, for example, the author has a certain notion of consent in mind and the characters act morally using that understanding, but a reader brings a different idea in which they’re not, the conversation then shifts to one about the morality of the different ideas of consent. That’s an area where the author doesn’t have authority.
So you’re a contrarian.
Mostly just stubborn lol
Ya know what? Fair. That’s fair.
No I’m not.
To be clear, Willis’s hypothetical declarations about what is healthy and normal and fine would not actually be meaningful (or at least not any more meaningful that anyone else’s), because Willis is not a mental health expert. The argument where Willis gets to be Word of God on is whether the characters viewed this as healthy and normal and fine, and what the characters’ motivations are for their actions.
If you want to say that this is all part of Dorothy’s sinister plan to make Joyce her secret personal sex slave, Willis could easily debunk that with a simple no (or confirm it with a yes, hypothetically). If you just want to say this whole interaction as presented is fucked up, as an outside judgment, authorial intent doesn’t enter into that equation.
But he could point out why some of the arguments that it’s fucked up don’t holdup. The ones that are based on the characters.
Like the various claims about the power imbalance between them.
Or we can just continue reading. Maybe he’s alread told us, but it isn’t published yet.
But that’s a whole 10 hours away at least. No other webcomic makes you wait this long between updates.
I concur wholeheartedly.
Joyce’s face, “desperate”, in the first panel, it’s so funny and naughty.
I see hearts and flowers. We’ll know she’s crossed the Rubicon* when the rainbows and butterflies appear.
(*My historian friend says that’s a metaphor in use. Sometimes I don’t trust her.)
Isn’t the Rubicon an obscure fourth-generation game console produced by Sanyo?
It’s a river in Italy that is referenced in the cliche phrase “crossing the Rubicon” (meaning “no turning back now”) which dates back to Julius Caesar crossing the river with his army after being told by the Senate to disband it and leave the territory. Having a standing army North of the Rubicon was illegal to Italy, and his crossing was a declaration of war (which led to the Civil War which resulted in his “dictatorship for life.”)
I hadn’t heard in the wild in decades, but a lot of far right wing types started using it after the 2020 election, in a more literal context than usual.
I’m gonna stop trying to make jokes here. This clearly isn’t the audience.
You are funny damnit, don’t give in…
The Rubicon are a series of quatrains written by originally by Omar Khayyam, translated to English by Edward FitzGerald.
Didn’t the comment section realized that Joyce had complete freedom here and wasn’t an uwu baby. That was less then a week ago but now it seems everyone is sliding back.
CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE!
—if you want to hear about how believing Joyce has complete freedom is the REAL infantilization, turn to page 43.
—if you want to hear about Dorothy’s mind control powers and how they mean Joyce’s consent is always false, turn to page 69.
—if you want to hear about how actually, Joyce doesn’t get to decide what being sexually abused is, and even if she decides the experience was good and welcome, Dorothy is a sex criminal now, turn to page 20.
–If you want to hear about how “things turning out okay” doesn’t mean that Dorothy WASN’T playing with fire the whole front half of this storyline, turn to page 81.
Not to make a mess, but I want to just rehash my reasons for why this whole scenario is pretty weird and wanted to make a new thread specifically about these points.
TLDR, *please* go back and read Take Me to Life Drawing, maybe even earlier, and pay special attention to the way everyone, but specifically Dorothy, treats Joyce. They all treat her like a child, but Dorothy and Joyce clearly have an unhealthy attachment.
Dorothy has been seen arguing with Billie about Joyce, specifically about Joyce’s autonomy (Billie on the side of Joyce doing things on her own). Billie specifically refers to Dorothy as a “mom” in this interaction, and not in a good way… I think Billie is in the right here, especially since Dorothy backs down. You can say that Billie might be wrong because Billie has made so many bad decisions herself… But she’s in therapy now, and like it or not she’s learning a lot about unhealthy relationships.
Dorothy has been seen being very, very defensive toward Joe. Whether you agree its justified or not based on his past behavior, it is undeniably extreme to imply Joyce is Joe’s “prey.” They are trauma-bonded by Ryan and the kidnapping, and while it is understandable it is not healthy.
Dorothy has been shown to have Joyce’s personal information, access to her phone, has expressed an interest and ability to pick up her prescriptions and get her into classes. This is NOT a normal friendly thing to be doing and further reinforces the parental relationship between them.
This is clearly an informal parental relationship where Dorothy makes choices for Joyce. When Joyce pushes back, Dorothy gets insecure and upset, and Joyce relents; these two are co-dependent as fuck and it is not cute. I have to insist that this is not just my personal interpretation… There are strips that clearly depict this TEXTUALLY, and not that long in the past!
Again, I *highly* recommend everyone go back and read the “Take Me to Life Drawing” arc again. Pay specific attention to the way these two talk to each other. So much happens to show how Dorothy and Joyce have an unhealthy attachment, that expresses itself in a pattern.
Regarding autonomy and infantilization, all of these recent Joyce arcs have been about how Joyce needs to have space to make her own decisions, even if they are mistakes. This is also referenced by Robyn when talking to Becky about having sex for the first time.
Dorothy surprising Joyce, *telling* her they are gonna go jerk off, specifically mentioning she wants her to stop thinking about Joe, and only asking if she’s okay with it as an afterthought, is not a clear depiction of Joyce having autonomy. This is Dorothy making a decision for Joyce, just like with the Life Drawing Class, that Joyce is going along with on “Dorothy’s orders,” a line that Joyce herself uses. Again, this is reinforcing Dorothy’s parental relationship with Joyce, and doesn’t give Joyce the space to decide how she wants to do this.
Agree. Joe is a person who doesn’t try to ‘manage’ her. Maybe because she kicked down a door he’d been holding shut for a long time. And he likes it better on the other side.
There are SO many little interactions where, after the very rocky start to their relationship, he was supportive of her.
I don’t know if Dorothy knows any of this, but it is clear she really doesn’t understand internalized shame. She kinda swerved around working through “it’s OK to masturbate” to get right to “I’m going to teach you how…”
Dorothy clearly knows nothing of Joyce’s interactions with Joe. I’m not even sure she knows about their disastrous early date. Dorothy does know the old Joe quite well though, from years of dating his best friend.
So we’ve really got to hold both contradictory notions in mind at once. We can think Joyce and Joe will be a good relationship and still understand why Dorothy thinks it’s predatory. It makes no sense if we just consider our knowledge and don’t try to see Dorothy’s point of view.
As for teaching her to masturbate, while that’s what she said up front, everything she’s actually done has been to set the stage to encourage it and support it being an okay thing to do, not actually teaching Joyce any mechanics. Because that was the part that Joyce needs to learn.
From what I’ve seen it’s been all mechanics; go pee, take your pants off, sit there, try using your fingers. She literally only knows about internalized shame as an abstraction. I don’t think she’s ever experienced it.
It’s kind of amazing how differently people can read this comic.
It reminds me of people arguing she should have just bought her a vibrator and left her alone. That would never have worked, because of the internalized shame. Dorothy’s approach did, because she didn’t push her to do anything that would be blocked by the shame. (She suggested fingers, which Joyce rejected at first and then apparently accepted.)
Dorothy’s got some internalized shame. She’s talked about it before. Not nearly the depths of Joyce’s of course, but she seemed to have calibrated her approach quite well.
Well, it ended up working because Willis decided it would. If they had decided that giving her a vibrator would have worked, then it would have. Some people might argue that it wasn’t fitting for it to work, some would have said that it was better than other scenarios (such as this one), and some would go, “Well, it did work, so what’s the problem?”
I mean, yes. Willis can write whatever he wants. He could have decided that only an explicit demonstration by Dorothy would have worked and taken it to Slipshine, but this approach fits very nicely with Joyce’s established sexual repression in a way that her going “Oh, well now I have a vibrator, I guess I might as well use it” wouldn’t have.
Okay. I disagree about this fitting any better, and I also think there are many approaches that would have. We can sat now retroactively that it “would” work because it already has, and it’s easier to work backwards like that.
We don’t know if getting a vibrator for Joyce wouldn’t have worked, just as we don’t yet know if Dorothy’s actions will have any negative consequences.
I’m trying to use examples within the work itself to make my argument, so here’s another one.
A parallel to this situation within the comic is Becky and Dina. Becky willfully approached two experienced adults that she trusts for advice on her first time having sex. The conclusion? Leslie: Its complicated, it depends on what’s important to you and what isn’t. Robyn: It’s not that complicated, you’re clearly in sexual and romantic love with Dina, so just fuck around and find out. Basically a very normal, healthy conversation with two experienced people Becky can trust.
Compare to Dorothy and Joyce. Dorothy shows up out of nowhere after a difficult conversation with her ex that clearly frustrated her, tells Joyce she’s going to stop her from wanting Joe by showing her how to J/O, and gets consent after the fact. She sees Joyce’s repression as a problem that needs fixing–a problem for who, exactly?
I agree Dorothy doesn’t know everything about what Joe and Joyce. That is adding tension to the situation, but I don’t think that justifies her behavior as normal. And in my view, there is no romantic or sexual energy between Joyce and Dorothy that can justify this approach in any way.
You say giving her a vibe and leaving her alone wouldn’t have “worked”–“Worked,” to what end? Do you think Joyce is in danger? Do you agree she needs to be sexually relieved so she doesn’t sleep with Joe? That’s Dorothy’s goal. Is this a good thing? What exactly is the “problem” that’s being avoided here? So she doesn’t make a “mistake” with Joe, like Becky was afraid of doing with Dina?
Furthermore (sorry) this isn’t even going to stop Joyce from wanting Joe. If anything it’ll make her feel more comfortable initiating sexually with him! How do you think Dorothy would react then?
Worked in the sense of getting her to masturbate, not the larger sense of whatever you think Dorothy was doing here.
Specifically what I was commenting on: That she was supporting Joyce and working around her internalized shame rather than teaching her mechanics and that Dorothy understood her well enough to approach it that way.
Ah, I see. Sorry if I came at you from the wrong angle. But my question does remain, does Joyce really need to be taught to masturbate in this situation at all? By, like, anybody?
does anyone *need* to be taught to masturbate though? like, what’s your baseline here?
there have been a few comments here and there the last few days from people who have been taught to masturbate, more or less directly, by friends or lovers, and were grateful for it.
Milu—I can’t speak on their experiences. I don’t know all the details and I never will. I’m willing to bet their partner was not picking and choosing classes for them, confronting other people for daring to get involved, had all their info ready to pick up prescriptions and access to their phone et..
However, I can see that within the context of this comic, there is no real reason for Dorothy to be doing this right now besides her not wanting Joyce to hook up with Joe. That’s what I mean.
Someone mentioned up there that Dorothy is doing this because she knows she’s leaving for Yale (a fact no one else knows…) and wants to “help” Joyce by squeezing in this experience with her before disappearing. Consider what exactly is the goal here? The only stated “issue” is that she doesn’t want Joyce to hook up with Joe, which is none of her business anyway, and she can’t control!
So, why? What is the problem that’s being fixed? We have to consider why Dorothy think this is so necessary.
frankly i’m agnostic as to Dorothy’s motivations.
i do agree with thejeff that there’s been a consistent thread in their friendship of Dorothy trying to help Joyce out of her ingrained religious brainwashing, and i can see Dorothy at least telling *herself* that’s part of the reason she’s doing this now. i don’t think her motives are pure obviously, we’ve been seeing her scramble to keep Joyce away from Joe, and she was clearly piqued by Roz’s accusations of slut-shaming. but it doesn’t have to be either-or.
still, i’ve read these and other arguments, yet i’m also not really feeling Dorothy this storyline, on a gut level. i’m hoping the resolution will make it make more sense for me, but i agree that this storyline is pretty wonky for Dorothy’s character so far.
“Need to”? I guess not. She’d survive without it.
But working through her sexual repression has been a big part of her growth. She’s shown plenty of frustration and distress over it. This won’t fix that completely of course, but it’s likely to help.
And it’s something she wasn’t likely to be able to do on her own anytime soon, so if it was going to happen, help was needed.
As for Dorothy’s motivations, probably all of that stuff at once. Some parts better than others.
I have no idea how publicly masturbating at a friends behest is less of a leap than doing it in private out of personal curiosity.
I mean, Joyce has said as much in this strip that she *already* masturbates privately, just not very well because of the stipulations she’s set on herself about what does and does not “count”
Giving Joyce a vibe may or may not have resulted in her actually using it. But either way it would have been fully Joyce’s choice instead of Dorothy picking the most expedient route to “solve a problem.” That’s the beef I have with this, it feels incredibly heavy handed about a subject Joyce in particular is sensitive about.
I don’t want to put words into the author’s mouth, but the messaging I’m getting from Dorothy at least here is that it’s cool to blow blast people’s boundaries as long as they end up liking it in the end. Which is…..ooh boy is that not a message I like at all.
So I’m waiting to see if this ends up blowing up in Dorothy’s face or whether “the ends justify the means” is actually the promoted message here.
Just gonna cosign all of this
Yeah… I just don’t see it. I mean, I do see what you’re talking about, but I just can’t recognize it as a degree of genuine parental interaction that would be a problem. Dorothy does “mother” Joyce, but it doesn’t make what they have a parental relationship or give Dorothy power/authority over Joyce. She may be going to the class on “Dorothy’s orders”, but only after she explicitly asked Dorothy for help on the subject. She’s not just going along with what Dorothy says, it’s something she specifically wanted to do herself… just like this situation.
Granted, Dorothy has certainly been overly (and maybe inappropriately) forceful in both these situations: signing Joyce up for classes rather than just doing research for her, and treating this masturbation session as a statement rather than a question. Dorothy is, inarguably, less than perfect at treating Joyce as an autonomous, independent person. But that doesn’t mean Joyce is incapable of acting as one, and despite Dorothy’s overreach, telling Dorothy she needed time to sort out her own stuff after picking up meds, and telling everyone to butt out during the argument with Roz. The power dynamic between them isn’t one-sided. Joyce hasn’t “relented” to Dorothy against her own judgment or desires.
Where I can’t say I think you’re necessarily wrong is the issue of codependence. I disagree that they’re demonstrating an unhealthy level of it, especially since your storyline example of choice is when Joyce is quite literally in pain and lashing out… but the codependency is definitely there.
Thanks for your reply. This might be nitpicking but I believe Joyce asks her for “research” on the drawing class, not an explicit request to sign her up for it.
What Dorothy does is email the professor to get Joyce a spot, buy the supplies, and get angry when Joyce doesn’t acknowledge her right away.
As far as Joyce being incapable of acting autonomously, I just don’t see Dorothy giving her the space to make her own decisions on how to approach this.
Instead, she tries to anticipate and preemptively fulfill what she believes to be Joyce’s desires, without having any real conversation about it… This is a classically unhealthy relationship dynamic in and of itself.
As I mentioned, Dorothy definitely did overstep what Joyce asked her to do, in both the drawing class and in this situation. But also, she didn’t “sign her up” for it, just confirmed she was allowed to sit in, which is still fully in the bounds of research. There wasn’t any obligation for her to go. Buying supplies was really the only thing she did outside of what was explicitly asked of her, which is… a mild offense at best, and also frankly a completely normal reaction to an opportunity that comes up sooner than anticipated.
Likewise, I agree that Dorothy isn’t giving Joyce quite enough space, but Joyce has also clearly demonstrated her ability to push back when she feels like she needs the extra space. It’s not the best relationship dynamic, but it’s also one they can work on rather than being a toxic/abusive relationship they need to cut out.
Like, there’s definitely problems here, but I don’t think they’re unusually severe compared to typical interpersonal dynamics and conflicts.
This is the correct take
Cosigned.
I love Dorothy’s expression in the last panel! It’s the face of someone happy because she did a good job and it brought happiness to someone she cares about. Or that of a person who gave a friend the gift that she secretly wanted, but that she would never have the courage to ask for.
Well read, I think.
using the dryer as an improvised sybian didn’t do the job on it’s own, she’s just REALLY into hand holding
Ahahaha thank you for that chuckle
Why is this dryer sticky?
All right, engaging with comments is a mistake. Y’all can’t act normal about a comic.
on a less controversial note: i just noticed what dorothy’s shirt says. lol
I bet she’s never read a book with a dragon in it though.
ok honestly as much as I like this scene, I just want it to be over as soon as possible so the discussion can stop being about sexual abuse. whatever backhanded whatever I’ve tossed at people during this, I apologise. this is just really getting to me and I can’t wait for the topic to be literally anything else.
Big same.
On a completely unrelated note, I’ve been watching “The Extraordinary Attorney Woo,” and “The Chosen,” on Netflix, both of which have neurodiverse main characters. My partner doesn’t like watching “The Chosen,” because Bible stories aren’t really his thing, but really related to Attorney Woo. He saw a lot of himself in her. Talking about the series together helped him to understand his own idiosyncrasies, and helped me to understand him better, too.
Both series have had criticism for portraying people with autism as stereotypical “genius savants,” kind of the same way “The Good Doctor” (both Korean and US versions) and so many other TV shows and movies have done.
“The Chosen” has done better than “Attorney Woo” in hiring and including staff and actors with disabilities, including neurodivergence. But in general, having a nondisabled actor mimicking the tics and grimaces and such of a neurological disability can sometimes feel like mockery.
So here’s my question: are such imitative portrayals in media helpful, or harmful? Do they perpetuate stereotypes and mockery, or do they promote acceptance, understanding, and inclusion?
What do you think?
I don’t think it matters if the actor is actually braindifferent, as long as I can believe the character is. For example, I don’t think RJ Cyler is autistic, but his version of Billy Cranston absolutely is and I’d never have known the difference if I hadn’t looked it up just now.
Put another way, as long as the character isn’t written in an insulting way and the actor is doing an alright job with the script (and doesn’t say something fucking stupid about it on Conan or whatever), they can do what they want.
Wow, I had never seen Billy Cranston or the Power Rangers — thank you for introducing me to a new series!
It’s my first special interest. And I’m no gatekeeper. If I could recommend a specific season, Lost Galaxy is mostly self contained and has some of the best writing in the franchise. The original series is a classic, of course, but it’s also the start of continuous story spanning six seasons, the characters come and go at the drop of a hat, and it can be a lot to remember. Then again, that also makes it the perfect season to just sit back and enjoy at whatever pace you like.
Very cool. Much appreciated!
>So here’s my question: are such imitative portrayals in media helpful, or harmful?
Depends how good of an actor they are and how good the script is. The entire point of a show is to get you to suspend your disbelief of something that is not real. This can include everything from sexuality to neurodivergence. It’s only mockery and stereotyping when they actually rely on mockery and stereotyping to accomplish this goal, and generally it is a sign of laziness on the part of the actor, director, and script writer.
Yes, that makes sense. Thank you!
One thing I think both series do well
(and, it sounds like, the Power Rangers does well too) is show how folks with neurodivergent abilities can be targets for bullying and mockery, and what kinds of strategies and resiliencies they may adopt to cope with such exclusion.
Yeah, and also, are there autistic people (or whatever is being represented) working on the show? Like, if the main character is autistic, and they end up casting an allistic actor (after making sure that the casting process was accessible and inclusive of possible autistic actors) okay. What about the directors? Producers? Writers? Consultants? How far do you have to go to find someone with lived experience who is connected to this show?
If there’s not an autistic person in one role, okay, but if they’re not in ANY role, then I’m going to be skeptical.
Yes, I think “The Good Doctor” US version had consultants who had autism. Attorney Woo has been criticized for having child development specialist consultants but not autistic consultants themselves.
great point. It’s what’s expressed by the common sentiment that goes, “i can’t believe there’s a single [X] person working in decision-making positions on this show, or this arc/line/scene would never have been allowed to go ahead”
Basically this.
Also, one thing I think would really help is if there were multiple autistic characters in the cast, if only to make sure that the one token character doesn’t become yet another defining stereotype, and at least make an effort to show how diverse we are as a group.
yes! very good point.
i also think it’s important, when the least bit appropriate, to represent the marginalized *community* as a thing.
For instance i find it intensely frustrating when a movie has a central queer character who, for no discernable reason, has NO QUEER FRIENDS. it’s like, wtf, why?!
Yes, “The Good Doctor” was good that way. There were other characters who had autism spectrum conditions or were otherwise neurodiverse, but it didn’t give the main character a special “affinity” for them, and made clear that not all folks with autism were alike or related to each other.
Looks like “Attorney Woo” has multiple characters with autism and other neurodivergencies as well.
I don’t know about these shows in particular, nor about disability rep generally. But one thing that comes up a lot when discussing who should or shouldn’t be representing characters from marginalized groups (queer, non-white, fat, not-canonically-pretty, etc) is the fact that there (usually) are many struggling actors from these same groups, and it doesn’t send a great message when a piece of media that purports to fight for/on behalf of excluded folk don’t put their money where their mouth is.
Typical (and not necessarily always wrong) rebuttals to this line of argument are often:
– sure, there are actors from X group, but not that many, and we did try to cast one, but honestly we failed to find one fitting the part
– this one actor we picked is fantastic, we clicked, we wrote the role with them in mind, etc
– producers insisted on having a sexy face or a famous name for promo reasons, we didn’t really have a say, sorry
Yes, that makes sense too. Thank you!
Many good points being brought up here, and I will also add on: For identities that are not visible (such as neurodiversity and queerness), requiring that only actors who are x play characters who are x can result in pressuring actors to come out about that identity.
Now, I know some works that go in with the requirement that actors will share marginalized identities with characters, and that’s great. There’s a show I enjoyed with two autistic main characters, played by autistic actors, and I love that representation. I think it’s fair to say, “We are making this show in part with this intention.” But I don’t think that needs to be a universal rule.
That sounds like a cool series! Would you like to share the name?
The show is called Everything’s Gonna Be Okay. I found it at times uncomfortable to watch, in a way that I would sort of describe as making me cringe, but not in the way the term “cringe” is used on the internet these days. I guess it felt very real to me in way that like… actually witnessing this happen in someone else’s life would be uncomfortable. This is more just a not than a critique of the show, as I personally think it’s really interesting to create a show that someone can both experience that feeling with and enjoy.
Anyway, it only lasted two seasons, wish it got more, but oh well.
Oh, yes, I’ve heard of that show. It looked good. I’ll have to see where I can find it. Thank you!
Last I checked, it was on Hulu! I only recently learned Hannah Gadsby co-wrote and starred in it so I’m excited to see it!
Yes. They do all of that. See above, about what different perceivers take out of the same work.
So true!
Why is any of this happening?
What has Dorothy actually taught Joyce over this entire scene?
Why are they doing this in a public laundry room?
Does Willis think laundry machines help people masturbate?
This might be a weird thing to say (I’ve barely slept in months), but I think maybe the word “teach” is being taken too…school-ly. (I don’t know the smart people word for it, shut up.)
What I mean by that is, I don’t think she was ever intending to sit Joyce down and give her diagrams or whatever it is teachers do. I think it’s a more casual, colloquial use of it, sort of a “help you learn a behavior” more than “instruct you on this activity”.
If that makes sense. I don’t know, I’ve got no confidence in my own reading comprehension anymore.
I think this makes sense. Dorothy wanted Joyce to get over her block surrounding sexual pleasure, and it this seems like a step in that direction.
yeah, the comments lately have been exhausting. i’ve mostly found the discussions really interesting, if sometimes a bit heated for comfort, but if that helps, personally i try to think of coming out of a discussion less confident in my opinions as i was going in as enriching. trying to grasp multiple excluding perspectives at once can absolutely be exhausting, no question. but i think there’s also something deep about the experience? that’s just me of course.
i hope you manage to sleep, take care <3
I just used the term “school-y” to describe Death of the Author so you’re doing fine in my books.
Sleep is hard. I have insomnia occasionally from long Covid. Good luck dude.
You’ve been dealing with long covid too? 🥺
I feel ya bruh, it sucks! 😭
This arc has been so weird. Even without getting into the consent vs. enthusiastic consent argument no matter how stealthy this is, this is still public masturbation which is gross. The people giving Dorothy the benefit of the doubt for this would not do the same if the next strip was Joe in the corner of the mens laundry room on a dryer jacking off.
I would.
I don’t know… like, this has easily been my least favorite arc in the series so far. Seeing as how I usually enjoy the strip, this has been very disappointing. But there are lots of examples of media that I don’t like that other people do, like Law & Order, or Rick & Morty. Other people enjoying things that I don’t in media does not make that media, or those people, bad.
For your specific judgment of how others would react, well… 1. maybe that’s not actually the case, as Taffy suggested, and 2. that would be a different scenario. People react differently to different scenarios. Maybe it’d be the same from a legal standpoint or something, but that’s not the perspective most people are assessing the comic from.
“if the next strip was Joe in the corner of the mens laundry room on a dryer jacking off”
not to get too TMI, but I would vividly be able to empathize with Joe in that scenario.
I don’t know if I’m too late to comment, but I just wanted to to express my confusion about the grossness aspect being talked about in the comments. The way I’ve seen it being talked about makes it seem like when women masterbate it leaves a massive mess that would then have to be dealt with, in the same way that guys do. I’ve also seen a few comments mention squirting. I already knew that squirting was a thing some women do when they come, but I’ve never experienced that myself and I kind of thought that squirting was
The only “squirting” that I care about is a weekly ritual between my closest friends and I, wherein we get together outside a local bell tower and drink four bottles of Squirt soda each.
Or it would be if that were true.
The only squirt I care about is the duck-shaped squirt gun I’m pointing at your back right now….
Are-
Are you under my sofa?
I’m the door you said I wasn’t
That’s weirdly ominous.
yeah, i’ve also been finding that a bit weird. i guess part of it is that my squick threshold is probably kinda high. learning that someone had masturbated on top of a dryer i’m about to use (or that my clothes are currently inside of) would probably make me laugh and go, “good for them” and then entirely forget about it.
it feels like the impulse to think about clean-up for some people will come from a sort of a reflexive sense of “sex = dirty”. personally, i’d imagine the sweat from both girls’ thighs is what’s more likely to leave a (very) small amount of moisture on the dryers and sure, wiping that off would probably be considerate.
I don’t know about masturbation specifically, but I could see someone finding it gross because of butthole proximity to a surface they might be folding clean laundry on.
Unusual. Sorry my other comment got too long for the box so I had to post it in a pair. Following on from my previous comment, am I the weird one then for not squirting? I don’t remember ever making a mess
1. You are not weird for not squirting. Everyone is different, and most people with vaginas do not squirt.
2. Your comment wasn’t actually too long for the box, unless you mean it was causing difficulty for you on whatever device you were using. I think the comment field has an upper limit, but it is far, far over what you posted, and usually the box will just allow you to scroll.
You’re not weird for not squirting. Honestly I don’t know of a lot of people that actually squirt any or a noticeable amount during orgasm, but mess would come the fact that people with vaginas generally generate lubrication which, depending on how thin her panties are and how much coverage they have, it could get directly on the machine, plus this fluid would also get on her hands/fingers (my school’s laundry room didn’t have a sink or hand soap, so no way to wash hands after).
So the lubrication that vaginas make to aid in the process of sex is what I would worry would get on the machine. It likely wouldn’t be a lot, but it’s still a bodily fluid that could get on the public surfaces.
Also, the amount each vagina makes varies per person and also varies per age. For instance, I knew a girl in High School who would have it drip down her leg during foreplay. And personally I had always created a sufficient amount (provided I was actually attracted to my sexual partner, but that’s a whole different issue) but when I hit my late 30s/early 40s, suddenly production ramped up and I really felt like that WAP “bucket and mop” situation. o_O Ironically, at that level, it can actually be a detriment, because it makes things so slide-y that the complete lack of friction can make it so your partner can’t feel stimulation anymore, making it less enjoyable and more difficult to finish.
Rereading the arc, I think that Joyce did give her consent. In addition to the body language cues, Dorothy also says if Joyce isn’t okay with it, they can – but before she can even finish saying it, Joyces says that it’s fine, that it’s *more* than fine and how they’re going to do so much “laundry”. So, I do think that’s consent.
The only issue I have (which I’ve had the whole time) is that this is a very public place to masturbate and the effect it could have on Joyce if she was caught, as well as the issue of that whoever walked in didn’t consent, plus sanitary issues.
That’s why Dorothy is keeping watch. As for any potential mess, well… I suppose they’re in a laundry room anyway. May as well clean up with what they have on, after the rest finishes drying.
Fair point. She’s keeping watch now, which is good, but earlier, anyone could have walked in. And I know that from the perspective of someone walking in at that point, it would have looked like nothing was happening, but the embarrassment to Joyce, especially with her fundamentalist roots, could have set her back so far, and I wish Dorothy would have considered that. But yes, at least Dorothy can stop anyone from walking in during the most explicit part.
Regarding cleaning up, maybe your laundry room was different in college, but mine didn’t have any cleaning supplies, not even hand soap, and just wiping away bodily fluids doesn’t sanitize the surface. If Joyce were wearing her pants still, I wouldn’t be as concerned, but she’s in her panties and also, if she uses her fingers to finish – I’m betting she’s not going to be thinking about how she shouldn’t touch anything in the room after that.
It basically felt out of left field, which bothered me. Her stating that she has done this before made it clear why she seemed unlike herself, however – There was info missing, which made the arc feel much better
Sorry if that’s tmi, I just thought because the subject was masturbation it might be ok
you’re well within bounds for this comment section!
Well this event had to come (badum pshhh)
I would also like to point out how actively Joyce voiced her objections to Dorthey and Walkies relationship, I mean she seriously never missed an opportunity to say that they shouldn’t be together, and how weird it is that people have a problem with putting the shoe on the other foot.
It’s because people can’t be normal about autistic people’s sexuality.
THANK YOU
There are a couple reasons for that:
1. Joyce tended to be pretty vocally disapproving but generally not in ways Dorothy was uncomfortable with, while Joyce has specifically expressed disinterest in Dorothy’s intervention
2. Dorothy hasn’t just voiced displeasure but actively tried to stop them from getting together, Joyce knew full well Walky and Dorothy wanted to date even if she disaproved and helped their relationship instead of trying to sabotage it
There’s also that it wasn’t cool when Joyce did it either.
1. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/skywizard/
2. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/david-2/
I’m not down on Joyce. Or Dorothy either. I think there actions make perfect sense from their point of view. I’m just saying there always seems to be a contingent of the fanbase willing to snap at Dorothy even when other characters do similar things.
I wasn’t part of the commentariat at that time, but I definitely uttered “shut it, you prude” out loud at Joyce at least once or twice. =P
This is cute. Good for her
Given there’s over 500 replies in like an hour or two, I’m guessing most of you here were sitting here spamming Refresh all day.
Such a shame not to make it to 666 comments 😪
Happy for her : )
Good_for_her.png
I wonder how many people see the irony in Joyce’s very clear uncomfortableness centering around her sex life being debated in a public forum…
…then all the debate about her sex life in these public comments
These comments are public in the world which Joyce inhabits. Neither she nor anyone she meets will ever see any of them.
*are NOT
All these comments (over 550) and only one about Joyce’s o face? You guys are a buncha slackers.
More like Cumming Of Age amirite