People really ripping into Dorothy here. She’s not objecting to Joyce having a romantic interest or having sex, it’s (based on the evidence of her experience of having *known* Joe for years) WHO that she objects to. Dorothy isn’t being hypocrite, she’s actualy being a good friend to Joyce based on the information that she has. Unfortunately for her and Joe, her data is out of date. The only person with recent data is too horny to view it objectively. Still, it may work out anyways as it *appears* Joe is actually wanting to grow and be a better person.
I think it’s ok not to be 100% objective WRT one’s feelings. Both for Joyce’s attraction (physical and emotional) to Joe, and Dorothy’s disdain for him. She just doesn’t like him, from their past, I don’t think knowing that he learned something in Gender Studies would make her stop disliking him. And that’s fine, nobody should be obligated to forgive or forget.
Dorothy’s angry at Joyce here, and that’s the problem. She’s trying to make Joyce’s decisions for her, compared to with Ethan and Jacob, she just expressed her disappointment, right? Her motives aren’t unjustified, but she’s crossing boundaries with her actions. She’s not team mom, she’s just another dumb freshman trying to learn how to be. Making the same mistakes Joyce made when Dorothy was with Walky.
Dorothy is too close to things on multiple sides. The proper way to handle the situation would be to open with empathy both in her discussion with Joe and her discussion with Joyce.
She’s incapable of making an empathy statement at the opening of her discussion where she resonates with the emotions of the person she’s speaking with before diving into her advice. Without performing that action she’s making a move to conclude XD. I used to work call center and you never move to conclude that’s how you end up in looping conversations where nothing moves forwards.
I get that Dorothy likely doesn’t know these tricks even as a polisci major
Dorothy is off her game. We’ve seen her be more tactful and empathetic in the past. She’s under a lot of stress (possibly Yale-related, but she’s also having a bit of an identity crisis, as several people have questioned her people-skills and she’s getting desperate to prove them wrong, and ironically she’s just probing them right) and she is frustrated with Joyce in general lately.
I think your on to something with Dorothy trying to disprove her lack of people skills. One interpretation i haven’t considerd as much is she’s trying to work her charisma into giving herself the voice of authority and Is getting increasingly frustrated that people (mainly Joyce and Joe) arent responding like she they shoul. In her mind If she can’t make her own friend and old frienemy listen to her then how can she get a nation to listen?
Dorothy, a fledging scholar and passionate about gender studies doesn’t allow her to believe that they can change the mind of people based on her own negative perceptions of them. I think that’s where the “hypocrite” call is coming from.
I mean, gender studies didn’t actually change Joe’s mind. It was the revelation of the list and Joyce’s talk about her experience with Ryan and how Joe’s treatment of women echoed with that.
Yes, we are ripping in to Dorothy. Because she’s treating Joyce like a child. AGAIN. As if there’s no way Joyce could enter a relationship with Joe unless she had no idea of his history (or was ignoring it). She’s letting her disdain for Joe override her friendship with Joyce. And yes, it’s damned hypocritical of her to do so. She claims to be a feminist. Feminisim is supposed to be all about the ability and right to choose whatever, whenever. She’s trying to deny Joyce the ability to choose an adult relationship because JOE BAD.
And the sooner Joyce slaps her with the wet mackrel of self-awareness, the better for all involved.
Or better still: Joyce blows her off. Dorothy goes to Danny in desperation. And runs into Sal, who having no reason not to, reads her for filth.
I’m starting to wonder what history Dorothy has with Joe we don’t know about. Like it can’t just be he was a super misogynistic dude bro could it?….Actually no, maybe that’s enough.
This feels like something more than just knowing him. It feels like Joe or being associated with Joe in some way hurt Dorothy. Like she’s seen first hand what dating him has done to women. Which is strange since Joe has been all about the casual hookup so I can’t imagine him bringing girls or the topic of women around Dorothy at all except in that very bragging way.
It’s probably the age old “My best friend dated my BF’s best friend, he was only after casual bang buddies, she wanted more, they broke up, I lost my Best friend because I didn’t break up with BF because I was a moron and didn’t realize he didn’t fit into my 20 year plan for the white house.” Said in the Leslie Knope voice.
Maybe she was aquainted enough with some of the girls Joe had a fling with to know what happened afterwards?
Either that or she’s making a lot of assumptions about what these girls were expecting vs what they got? I’m expecting the former as highschools are generally small enough to be atleast aquainted with nearly everyone in one’s year group…
If Dorothy has seen “what dating [Joe] has done to women,” I wish she’d tell us. The few we’ve seen all seemed satisfied. There are plenty who will tell you, “Joe is creepy” (and they turned him down), but no one has said, “Joe abused me.”
I feel that there are a lot of unspoken assumptions about What Women Want. Not every woman wants the same thing, and any given woman may want different things at different times.
Whatever his flaws, Joe has always been honest and upfront about the fact that he wasn’t interested in anything beyond a quick fling. He seems to have a very good grasp on the meaning of consent, and whenever a woman makes it clear she’s not interested, he quickly backs off and moves on.
Also, Joe has a history of repeatedly making sexually-charged comments in Sarah’s direction, for instance, even after she made it clear that she was in no way interested in him. Don’t think that qualifies as “quickly backing off and moving on”.
I was going through old dorothy+joe tagged strips for interactions between them (and boy are there a lot of done-with-his-shit expressions on Dorothy’s face when they wind up directly interacting not about Danny)
I think https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/presidential/ is actually extremely telling, even accounting for the fact that Dorothy was elsewise in a bad mood. I can pretty easily imagine years of Joe putting down Dorothy’s ambitions in assorted misogynistic ways thinking he’s funny, while Dorothy feels socially obligated not to object, which he takes as her not minding……
Also keep in mind that due to the sliding timescale, Dorothy (19) would now have been born in 2003/2004. She’d have been in high school with Joe during the Trump presidency. Just to add another level of fucked-upness to all that.
I mean, the “do list” and this interaction would be enough for me to act like Dorothy is here. And he had that horrible list of ratings that happened like a couple of months ago comic time. She’s just telling her friend not to date a jerkwad, a time honored tradition
Trying to give your friend the best information you have? Cool. Trying to make her decisions for her? Not so cool. Dorothy is dangerously close to pushing this too far.
i remember joe saying he was gonna make her an ‘8’ on his ‘do’ list but i don’t think he mentioned anything about actually hooking up with her (well not that he’d do that/admit it to danny at that point but feels like we would’ve gotten hints? or maybe it’s something like with liz where tehy stop halfway)
There’s an idea going around that she got horny and turned to him for his casual sex specialty during the timeskip, but I don’t see any real support for it.
I don’t know whats worse, being told to “calm yourself” (has telling someone to calm down ever worked?) or grabbing someone from behind so their head jerks back (although I might think its bad because I currently have a stiff neck)
Some people are into that. Not my idea of fun, but what consenting adults do in private is none of my business. In this case, I really want it to be none of my business.
So, Joe seduced Dorothy while she was dating his best friend? I’m trying to think what else could explain Dorothy’s grudge against Joe but that’s all I can come up with.
I own a book about conspiracy theories called “Occam’s Nightmare”. The author describes a tool he calls Dan Brown’s Hammer. Conspiracy theorists use it to nail on ever-greater complications whenever their theory threatens to break down.
Yeah, Joe has objectively not been a real great person for YEARS, and Dorothy is not privy to his efforts at changing on account of being part of the same fictional narrative rather than a close-to-omniscient viewer. And even if she were privy, it’d be pretty reasonable to doubt those efforts as either disingenuous or just not terribly relevant in the face of his history.
Also Joyce has effectively zero actual experience dating, and has actually been a victim of sexual assault *pretty darn recently*.
Honestly it’d be weirder if Dorothy *didn’t* see this as a dangerous thing to be warned against.
I’d be more on board with this take if Joyce hadn’t also known Joe for a semester and a half at this point, including sitting next to him in the gender studies class (and smacking him down for misogyny fairly often, at that).
I’d also be more on board with this take if Dorothy hadn’t been escalating her weird “Joyce is a naive infant who needs a keeper” vibe lately.
The “control issue” comes from the fact that Dorothy is dangerously close to going beyond cautioning to actually trying to make Joyce’s decision for her.
Yeah this. I would support Dorothy saying “Joyce, you need to know just how bad Joe is before you do this,” and even “I really don’t like being around Joe, so please don’t date him” (a little unreasonable, but she can ask).
But instead it started with telling Joe not to date Joyce (in a conversation Joyce didn’t/doesn’t know about), and that given her infantilizing of Joyce, it now seems to be moving to trying to parent her (demanding what Joyce does/doesn’t do and insisting it’s because she knows better and it’s for Joyce’s own good)
Also as far as we know, what Dorothy dislikes is all pretty public and known by Joyce, as Big Z said. Unless she has some bombshell we don’t know about yet (possible but I think unlikely), she isn’t giving Joyce anything new to work with.
I feel like it might be less to do with Joe (although she certainly isn’t friends with him, she hasn’t been adverse to his presence before) and more to do with Joyce. She doesn’t trust Joyce’s judgement and wants to protect her from Joe and his… Joe-ness. Which, I get it… but Dorothy is definitely going overboard with it here. Joyce is an adult, Joyce has also taken the time to get to know Joe and is aware of his flaws and positive traits without excusing those flaws.
Don’t think Joe would do that. I mean he straight out admitted he would try to seduce her once she broke up with Danny but I don’t think he would try while they were still dating.
I have wondered if, back in high school, Dorothy was tempted, risked her relationship with Danny, and came on to Joe. Who, out of loyalty to his friend, declined. There’s a very twisted path from there to her present attitude, and I have no confidence in this notion. I’m just stirring up debate.
I think there was a “Hello, Ethan’s tushie? Yes, I’d like to grab you very much” at one point, possibly when she was asking Jennifer if it was possible to smooch a boy without going all the way. And Jacob caught her checking out Ethan’s ass more than once.
This is a conversation that is about to go very poorly for Dorothy.
If not because of Joyce blowing up at her, then because I am about six panels away from crawling through the fourth wall and blowing up at Dorothy myself.
Like ma’am I get that from a Watsonian perspective you are being not entirely unreasonable but I have been waiting for this ship to sail since the day after Dina’s birthday so if you wouldn’t mind–
This definatley does look like the final straw that could lead to their first real fight, Joyce has expressed previous frustration with Dorothy over her being too in her business and Dorothy hasn’t shown any real acknowledgment that she needs to step back sometimes, despite Jennifer having it spelled out for her.
Also, like… yeah, you WERE in the same Gender Studies class, Dor. You were in that same class with Joe AND Joyce, meaning you spent a semester watching Joyce rake Joe over the coals (deservedly so) every time he breathed misogynistically. Joyce has never tolerated Joe’s shitty behavior (hell, a driving point in their growing friendship was Joyce calling Joe out on being a shithead about his treatment of women and Joe actually taking it to heart) so why are you suddenly assuming that she’s Too Horny To See Joe’s Faults NOW???
Joe’s right, Dorothy does need to have more faith in Joyce.
Joe will never be Anything more then her ex’s sex pest friend to Dotty. It’s going to take an act of Willis to get her to see as anything but the horndog “I don’t want to be emotionally close to women because I’m trash like my father” Joe.
True!! Joyce never misses a chance to call Joe out, even now! She did it in the life drawing class as well! I suppose we can’t remember everything in our lives, but they must’ve fought often enough that they became known for it. They wanted to pretend continuing to banter after all, after Joyce wanted to hide her atheism.
When Joyce says “Kneading his face with my butt” it feels innocent in a very slightly risque kind of way. But if Amber used it as a tag on her fanfic it absolutely would not.
Man, I know this isn’t the point, but I kinda like the fact that Joe being Danny’s friend is just…such a thing that he’s basically a package deal with anyone he dates. You date Danny, you’re dating Joe too. And vice-versa presumably. They’re ride-or-die besties forever and I find that adorable.
I just accidentally skipped a line and read this as: “I’ve never ever EVER considered dating Joe! Or putting my mouth […] with his butt,” which seemed like a much deeper admission than I expected Joyce to make.
I totally forgot that, by dating Danny, Dorothy know Joe.
Ok I have Wild theory, Dorothy dig Joe as she dig Walky but dating Danny and her own volition stop her. But that irk is still there and she hates that urge to throw monkey toy at him.
Well, that’s the main part, isn’t it? Dorothy was NEVER Joe’s friend, never considered him part of her circle, and wanted to be rid of him as much as she wanted to be rid of Danny (plausibly more so because of his past behavior).
“Now you’re just somebody that I used to know.” -Gotye
I take it she’s fed up because he’s still tangentially involved with her life.
She definitely has a way to go before acknowledging that she doesn’t always know what’s best for Joyce or when she needs to back off even when she does.
Okay, well, other than the part where she nearly yanks Joyce down by grabbing on her hoodie – which I’ll assume is exaggerated for the strip – this conversation is actually going better than anticipated. Dorothy is focusing on Joe and his well-established personality rather than on Joyce and why she needs protection from herself.
I’m hoping Joyce follows example and counters with her reasons for trusting Joe so Dorothy atleast realizes that the two have had something of a stable friendship before getting to this stage but Joyce is also on the defensive now so It could easily just become a straight up argument.
I have returned after several day absence – it has been a heck of a last 5 days. Thank you to all those who wished me luck on my assignments, it meant a lot.
Pretty sure Joyce was aware of Joe’s issues she did go on a date with him once and also chastised him for his womanizing. Also had Mike beat him. Joe is trying to get better but since Dotty doesnt really interact with him as much anymore she probably hasnt seen any growth and just defaults to her view of him prior to university. So I can see where she is coming from but if Joyce explains this and Dorothy defaults to infanatlizatiing Joyce then I would be mad.
Dorothy not knowing Joe and Joyce have been texting for months and grown close it’s not a BRAND NEW thing. the feelings being shared is a new thing. I get being protective of your friend, but forbidding them to do things ain’t it
On the subject of why Dotty is overstepping here: Joe is one of my favorite characters, but I have no trouble believing that there is no Big Secret That Explains Everything, Dorothy just dislikes him. Because, you see, I have *met Joe.*
Silly Dorothy, you should have expected that Joe would turn up to any class where he thought there might have been a higher chance of women that could potentially have a higher chance of being lesbians.
Well this is when the rubber hits the road of both of their communication styles and distances from each other in certain ways
So long they’ve been in a dynamic that’s all “Joyce is a child and Dorothy is a mum”, and they are both trying to not do that but right now Dorothy is still talking at Joyce with more orders from above than actually talking with Joyce and Joyce isn’t even saying what she feels.
Feels bad when good friendships hit these points of struggle with individuals evolution, particularly cause they both care about the other.
Or the deep feelings are so strong and Dorothy cannot lose Joyce to another!
*cut to epic romance cover with Joyce Dorothy and Joe in that pose that anne Hathaway had from the Shakespeare play she did*
Dorothy, Joyce might also regret it one day if she goes through her whole college experience following her mom friends orders and never having any memories outside of them.
To those referring to Joe as a misogynistic guy please stop. Misogynistic means he strongly dislikes, despises, kris prejudiced against women. He’s a horny teenager who is very open about what he wants. That’s it. At worst he’s oblivious to why something could be offensive to some people. But he has never demonstrated even the smallest amount of malice towards women.
You don’t need to be consciously malicious to be misogynistic. If you behave in a misogynistic way, like, oh, I dunno, talking about ‘upgrading women’ with your dick and fixing them and making a fuck list that you hand around to everyone you know, you are indeed behaving misogynistically.
The literal definition of misogyny is to dislike, despise, or be prejudiced against women. He can be a dumbass or an asshole, or a self centered dipshit without being misogynistic. Also, he didn’t hand around his fuck list. It was stolen and distributed without his knowledge or permission.
He also mentioned its existence to Jacob (“that thing’s even got grannies on it”), while he was dating Raidah, in Raidah’s presence (prompting Raidah to comment “tell me there’s a version of Earth where I didn’t just hear [Joe] has a ‘Do List'”), at which point Joe offered Jacob the password.
Literally, first storyline, he asks Danny if he’s subscribed to his do-list’s RSS feed. You don’t have an RSS feed with subscribers for a private list.
And prejudice need not be consciously malicious or even conscious to exist. Joe has behaved misogynistically.
Fair, but importantly for the context of this strip, Dorothy is entirely unaware of Joe’s growth. To her, the *best* case is that he’s just a douchebag teenage sex pest that she wants to be able to safely ignore far, far away from her day-to-day life and is hopefully mostly harmless.
Thank you MisterJinKC. That’s not the word I would have chosen, or anywhere near one. Joe can be crude, juvenile, selfish, and offensively direct, but I’ve seen no evidence that he considers women a lesser order of being, and he does respect a woman’s boundaries when stated. I’d be embarrassed to know him, but that’s the limit.
He literally talks about ‘fixing’ women with his penis. That is, indeed, misogyny. And no, he does not always respect women’s boundaries. He didn’t back off Sarah until she screamed at him.
That honestly feels like where a lot of arguments stem from, just in general: Two people who are having different conversations where they’re absolutley right, but failing to even recognize that they’re not considering the other side’s perspective.
At least at this point Dorothy is starting to lay out her concerns. Joyce’s horny attempts to deny any interest are preventing her from responding with anything that might make Dorothy less worried.
Probably, but I doubt that happened.
Almost certainly not before she dated Danny and it’s pretty clear that her opinions about him have been the same since the start of the comic.
I disagree. Now is the time for Dorothy to actually present her evidence. All she’s given so far is her judgment. An aspiring politician should know how to lay out the case supporting her position.
I know this is a joke, but I’m pretty sure Joyce is imagining this with no butthole involved. Just clean skin (possibly on the other side of clean, dry clothes)
If Joyce is actually going to call Dorothy on None Of Your Beeswax, I am here for it.
But really all I want to say is: Dorothy, WHY did you think a classroom full of potentially sex-positive women was the last place you’d find Joe and not the first? especially in the intro course! I’d bet there’s at least one Joe every term.
Much as I don’t think this is Any Of Dorothy’s Business, I’m still glad she’s making an effort to warn Joyce about Joe as she knows him. I don’t really care if she’s not expressing it in the single most absolutely optimal way, because this isn’t a fucking speedrun, like most things in life. Yeah, she could do this or that or the other, but oh well. She’s doing this, not those other unspecified things.
Proud of Joyce for definitely not admitting she wants to motorboat Joe’s asscheeks like it’s Friday night at the fishin’ club, which she totally doesn’t wanna do and therefore cannot admit to wanting.
I agree with that.
Today is a hard strip to think about it: if it was me, I would be gladly if a friend warm me about a bad girl, at same time I would think they are doubting me I can get a girl. Or, my friend want to get her first.
I don’t know.
This is true. But also, beyond the first date and their conversations about the topic after the do list dropped. Her interactions with Joe have been mostly positive and a source of stability.
Definitely, and she doesn’t have all the info on joe unlike us the audience who has seen his true colors and how he’s changed
So o course I can understand her skepticism, abd know that it does come from a place of caring for joyce, but at the same time, I can’t help but worry how she will react when joyce inevitably double downs on joe, since she HAS been talking with him for a while now and has seen him beyond his reputation
And lately she has been verrrry judge of Joyce’s choices, or treating her like a child.and frankly i think it’s going to blow up soon. Somethings got to give from one of them
Honestly, as someone who had a friend not want to intrude and thus didn’t warn me about a guy, it’s so much better to give the warning! Even if they choose not to use that information at first, they are warned and can more easily recognize the problem behavior as a real, systemic issue.
Being told about how the guy got invasive and creepy even in his old friend group may have saved me from months of threatening messages after I tried getting to know him, got uncomfortable with how he treated me, and rejected him (he never actually asked me out, but acted like I was his girlfriend and started acting pretty controlling so I confronted him on it… only for him to get VERY angry).
It may “not be her business”, but if you have information that may be very pertinent to the person and relationship, I’d say it’s the right think to do to inform your friend – Dorothy is admittedly being rather forceful here, could just leave it at a warning/description of other experiences she’s had with Joe and let Joyce decide what to do with that info, but I’d say it’s a much better friend move to care and get involved than to shrug and decide it’s not her problem.
I think people treat Joe like a creep to much like i understand that the list was very cringe but that was never meant to see the light of day dude had his privacy violated
if Amber can have her fanfiction Joe can slide on his very immature list
Also, I’m pretty sure this comment section has called out Amber in the past when she does real-person-fics, as that’s legitimately something to take issue with as well
i stg it was password protected tho like that was the whole point that danny’s shitty middle schooler webcode was not secure at all leaking the list to everyone he knew
The best way to keep a password secure is to not hand it out. Joe did exactly that, and apparently Danny never changed it at any point, so all it would have taken was one person he willingly handed it out to, deciding to spread it around.
Oh, definitely. On the list of suspects, she’s right at the very top. As ridiculous and petty and childish as she is, I still don’t think she’d get access to something like a “Do List” and just let that information dangle without doing something about it.
All of this would make way more sense if Joyce have actually expressed romantic interest, but since it’s all sexual, Dorothy does honestly just seem kind of irrational here. Like, if Joyce had shown any sign that she was falling for Joe in a real way, that’d be different. But, like, you can have sex with people who you wouldn’t want to be best friends with.
Sure, some people don’t group sexual and emotional and romantic intimacies as a package deal, and can have no-strings fuckbuddies. I don’t think Joyce can, though… I think she’ll only want sexytimes with somebody whom she can really trust, and she’s likely to bundle that trust with romance.
Nothing wrong with wanting that whole package. Sex, trust, and romance are a great bundle. I typically go for that deal, too — many types of intimacy at once, please. ♡
It’s just, that’s not the deal that Joe has ever once advertised to people in Dorothy’s hearing — he’s been very loud about wanting the opposite. (Unbeknownst to Dorothy, that’s because Joe’s afraid he can’t have romantic and sexual intimacy at once.)
…More to the point, from Dorothy’s perspective, Joe is mad annoying, and Dorothy is sick of having him around. If Joe and Joyce date, Joe will be around a lot more. Yuck!
There’s also the difference between what one wants and what one thinks one should have. I think that Joyce will let herself be led by the former close to the point of no return, but ultimately give more weight to the latter.
That’s true in the abstract, but this is Joyce and Dorothy knows her well.
And she’s right. Joyce is horny, but it’s also all tied up with romantic interest.
What all the horny talk does is just reinforce to her that Joyce isn’t thinking clearly about Joe.
Can we all just take a moment to forget how cute Joyce & Joe’s developing thing is and think about, objectively, what if we had a friend we cared about who said to us “Look, I know you’ve known him a lot longer and he’s always been a low-key shitty misogynist, but I alone can see beneath all that to the good inside that I’m sure I can bring out.” about a guy they are drooling over. How many of us would REALLY think our friend was thinking clearly and making good decisions?
….
Okay, moment over, now we can go back to thinking about Joyce&Joe being cute
Especially since Joyce hasn’t actually said any of that, just talked about all the sexy things she definitely doesn’t want to do to him. She hasn’t even tried to explain that they’ve actually made a non-sexual connection and that Joe has been changing.
Is this really “assault”? She grabbed her hoodie. Like, I wouldn’t appreciate it either, it’s rude as fuck and unnecessarily physical, but it’s not a physical attack. Joyce isn’t in harm’s way, she’s in no danger, and Dorothy wouldn’t hurt her.
Assault is pretty broad, and she did hoodie-choke her. The complicated thing is that it’s a comic so it’s hard to know when something is intended cartoonishly vs when it’s intended seriously.
This. I’m leaning on “it’s a comic, its not meant to be taken as it would in real life” at the moment, if only because of the characters involved and how Joyce seems to have no issue with it.
I guess that makes sense, and I’m certainly not trying to downplay assault. I get wary sometimes of watering down big important terms by using them for lesser things, is all. The lack of Joyce taking offense leads me to think it’s Not That Serious.
Assault is very broad and in some contexts even a simple touch can technically qualify, but it’s also a common rhetorical trick to use that broadest definition to imply equivalence with the more common understanding of assault as actual violence.
Given that Joyce shows no sign of any physical distress here, I think it’s pretty safe to assume the hoodie-choking didn’t involve any actual choking.
I think at worst she experienced an instant of very minor clotheslining. Her collar doesn’t even seem especially tightened by the pull, possibly due to complex hoodie/backpack physics.
We need to stop demonizing any and all physical interaction by treating it as equivalent to actual harm. It helps nobody and makes people afraid of each other for no reason.
to further clarify I don’t think what happens on this page is assault, just that yeah, technically the action could be (especially if it then escalated). Incredibly rude though.
As readers, we know Joe acts in good faith and is growing up as a person, but Dorothy doesn’t know that. To her he’s just the same old misogynistic jock :/
Probably nothing.
If she’d known anything of Joyce and Joe talking beyond the most casual context, she wouldn’t have been so surprised when he showed up to join them for lunch.
Yeah this is very much a “I DO NOT WANT THIS HUMAN IN MY LIFE, PLEASE DO NOT PUT HIM IN MY LIFE” thing. If Joyce and Joe start hanging out all the time then she’ll have to be around him. Even his change of heart doesn’t necessarily mean much to her if she finds his entire personality unbearable.
Someone else pointed that out (might have been on Patreon) and it’s been stuck in my head since. Joyce’s complaints were less serious, but all the same mostly ignored.
i get the concern but other than lovey dovey couples being attached at the hip or double dating (i mean joyce put up with walky well enough), but doesn’t mean ppl in relationships can’t hang out one on one together , or have some girls only night hangout at each others rooms (tho i can imagine sarah being grumpy about that)
I mean sure, you can hang out one-on-one too, but there will be more Joe in her life if Joyce is dating (or consistent FWBs with) him. Today is evidence of that.
OK, so I always thought the Dorothy’s problem with Joe was in the “unsufferable/bad influence bestie of my boyfriend” category, but now there seems to be something more. Is Dorothy just jealous?
I think its more that this is a somewhat personal thing. Like, Joe, in his teenage douchebaggery, hurt someone that Dorothy knows, and it created a bit of a wedge, something that she’s been trying to keep on the down-low for a while.
And as everyone knows, nothing goes bad when you try to repress your feelings on something!
I mean the implication here is she never like him because he was a douchebag and only tolerated him because of Danny. i.e. Joe was the broken stair. And now she’s warning Joyce about the broken stair. Joyce probably thinks she’s a carpenter.
This is a fine analogy. I have not taken it too far.
I disagree, part with the use of broken stair (since I think Danny is the only person that really shrugged off Joe), but mostly because I don’t think Joyce is going into this thinking she can fix him (perhaps thinking he is already what she’d consider fixed, but I don’t think she sees him as a project boyfriend)
If we go back to the comments on the strip where Becky did that with Joyce’s siblings, it would seem so.
Otherwise, I’ve never really seen it. Avoid joking about being a Nazi or about the Nazis being right, but hyperbolic comparisons to Nazis being bad haven’t usually raised any concerns. Other than Godwin’s Law.
Nobody’s forgotten. But what? He’s only an adult by legal technicality, is everything he did as a kid supposed to mark and stain and taint him forever? No chance to take those shitty actions and use them as a stepping stone to learn and grow and fix himself? If a person isn’t allowed to grow, then what options are left? You don’t forget the past, but you can’t let it be the sum and total of who you are and who you try to be going forward. Otherwise, everyone who screws up as a kid may as well just kill themselves and leave the board entirely, since there’s nothing left for them. Is that what people want? Because that’s the mindset that gets created, just nothing but despair and hopelessness.
I know Joe is a fictional character, but when we constantly harp on the past and bring it up as if nothing has happened since, real people are reading it. Maybe I’m just being touchy about this, but that’s where I’ve been before and that’s where it leads.
But at the same time, even when you change, you can’t expect everyone to install trust and accept it, especially when you’ve been continuing to pose as the same to most people.
Joyce has accepted that he’s changed and grown, because she’s been part of it. Dorothy hasn’t seen that. No one has even told her that he’s changed.
I think the vast majority of people here are happy for the Joe/Joyce relationship, but many can also see why Dorothy isn’t. Which is why we keep bringing up Joe’s past problems.
As a dude who had to grow out of some backwards-ass mentality during my first year of college, I feel this in my bones (but maybe at about 20% the vitriol level because it HAS been twenty years 😀 ).
And all anyone ever wants to talk about when it’s brought up is “Well, nobody OWES you this or that”, which is just changing the subject. Who fucking cares about social debt or whatever? It makes any attempt at improvement immediately punishable.
Orrr people do remember but acknowledge he hasn’t done anything totally irredeemable granted his fairly successful recent efforts at change. If every person IRL were held to the retroactive standards characters in this comic are, we’d all be considered terrible people forever because I guarantee you everyone here has been imperfect at some point in their past and had to learn and grow.
And even beyond that, these are fictional characters and they should therefore be held to an even lower standard than IRL people. Because it’s fiction. If Joyce wants to date a murderous space vampire a-la Julia Grey that will not, in fact, hurt any real people in real life.
I believe Joyce and Joe will, eventually, become a couple, as you can see this header. How they look in the same line, as if they are walking side by side…
Possibly. Joyce’s hair in that banner is different. She wore it in a Biillie-esque ponytail during the Jacob storyline, and so it feels like an intentional callback for it to resurface now. Also the outfits are different.
Telling your friend to calm themselves and physically yoinking them backwards when all they wanna do is go to their room and draw horny comics is… Pretty condescending and infantalizing, IMO. I’d call it annoying.
But they’re all adorable, young dumb little goobers who mostly mean well, so hopefully this conversation leads to some better communication between the two.
The message is entirely understandable. Dorothy hasn’t seen Joe change like the audience has and dude was NOT great last time she paid any attention to him. However, you can be a concerned friend warning someone about a creep without pulling your friend back by the hood, and you certainly can try and warn someone while also respecting their autonomy.
Also no, I don’t think Dorothy would really have the right to stop her friend from hooking up with someone just because she’s been trying to get rid of Joe for years. That’s not what’s happening here, but I figured I’d answer the question.
That’s not a question anybody asked, though. The comment you’re replying to asked if the OP was annoyed by Dorothy doing the described action, not whether Dorothy has the right
Yoinking your kid by the hoodie to get their attention is… Pretty unnecessary, IMO. Doing it to your adult friend because you play mom is some next level infantalizing (at least, I assume Willis means it that way and not as physical comedy given the tone of Joyce and Dorothy’s interactions lately).
Also come on Dotty, Joe is available and Joyce has kneads.
I can’t believe Dorothy grabbed Joyce by the jacket, swung her in multiple circles, and threw her at a nearby explosive device, shouting “So long, gay Joyce!” when she let go.
I get Dorothy’s concern but I really think Joyce and Joe could be good together. Like “opposites attract” but they actually compliment each other and bring out the better in each other, and help each other get out of opposite toxic traits. It could go bad, sure, but it could also go really well.
I know there is a storyline related purpose for both of Joyce’s closest friends, individually, to be boundary-smashing weirdos about at least some parts of their relationship, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I’m glad Dorothy has stopped Joyce for tell her what worries her. Is so unusual seeing her so upset, the possibilities that Joe the eternal nuisance would return in her life like when she was with Danny is probably too much for her. Sad to see that Joyce is unable to understand her drama, for now.
Hahaha, you guys are making this so i overblown, this is a normal friend interaction between people who are close to each other. They’re both just expressing themselves. The loud active denial instead of just saying nothing is a phase Joyce is going through while working through her repression, and dorothy should be allowed to express negative emotions normally. They’re close friends, and girls, so it’s normal for them to try to defend each other from potentially misogynistic boys. The hoodie thing is a thing Joyce does to other characters and is probably fine?
It’s truly incredible how any given action made by any character is immediately the worst thing that anyone has ever done and means they are irrevocably abusive or something.
Either that, or whitewashing the character’s actions almost to the point of absurdity (see: the multiple commenters further up who are literally saying “Joe has never been misogynistic, stop saying he was”—or to pull up an old example, the “Mary was just trying to study” arguments which got so bad at one point that over a thousand comments—an entire day’s worth—got mass-nuked in their entirety, and the comments section kept closed for a couple of days afterward in a heavy-handed but ultimately-successful move to contain the situation).
Straight up. I feel like totally normal behavior gets lit up with ten times the intensity as the actual horrible shit that some of these characters have gotten up to. It’s very strange.
he’s slept with quite a few girls in the first semester, but what did he do that makes him so bad? I think she’s making some unfair assumptions, dare I say, slut shaming?
I think mostly just a lot of lewd comments. I imagine it was worse in high school, too. At the start of the comic he was basically that guy that had to make every situation into a joke about sex.
Lots of people posing theories varying from likely to bizarre, so mine:
Dorothy has never mentioned friends from home other than Danny and Joe. Joyce, Becky, Ruth, Walky, Sal, Billie, and probably others have, so it’s not like the comic ignores their lives and relationships that aren’t main canon.
Maybe Dorothy kept having Joe hook up with her friends, then when they broke up (or didn’t hook up again), didn’t want to hang around Joe, and since Danny was so attached to him, and Dorothy dating Danny, they ended up stopping talking to Dorothy as well.
This would also play well, I think, with the resentment Dorothy had toward Danny, especially early in the comic, and it would explain why she is this mad about a friend being interested
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“JOYCE, I BEG YOU, DON’T CAST YOUR BODY INTO THE CRAGGED SHAME PITS OF THE LUST-WOLVES!”
“Dotty, this is no longer adorable.”
Welp, she wouldn’t be *presidential* if she weren’t a hypocrite, go figure -_-
People really ripping into Dorothy here. She’s not objecting to Joyce having a romantic interest or having sex, it’s (based on the evidence of her experience of having *known* Joe for years) WHO that she objects to. Dorothy isn’t being hypocrite, she’s actualy being a good friend to Joyce based on the information that she has. Unfortunately for her and Joe, her data is out of date. The only person with recent data is too horny to view it objectively. Still, it may work out anyways as it *appears* Joe is actually wanting to grow and be a better person.
Amber has been coaching Joe on this exact problem.
I think it’s ok not to be 100% objective WRT one’s feelings. Both for Joyce’s attraction (physical and emotional) to Joe, and Dorothy’s disdain for him. She just doesn’t like him, from their past, I don’t think knowing that he learned something in Gender Studies would make her stop disliking him. And that’s fine, nobody should be obligated to forgive or forget.
Dorothy’s angry at Joyce here, and that’s the problem. She’s trying to make Joyce’s decisions for her, compared to with Ethan and Jacob, she just expressed her disappointment, right? Her motives aren’t unjustified, but she’s crossing boundaries with her actions. She’s not team mom, she’s just another dumb freshman trying to learn how to be. Making the same mistakes Joyce made when Dorothy was with Walky.
Dorothy is too close to things on multiple sides. The proper way to handle the situation would be to open with empathy both in her discussion with Joe and her discussion with Joyce.
She’s incapable of making an empathy statement at the opening of her discussion where she resonates with the emotions of the person she’s speaking with before diving into her advice. Without performing that action she’s making a move to conclude XD. I used to work call center and you never move to conclude that’s how you end up in looping conversations where nothing moves forwards.
I get that Dorothy likely doesn’t know these tricks even as a polisci major
Dorothy is off her game. We’ve seen her be more tactful and empathetic in the past. She’s under a lot of stress (possibly Yale-related, but she’s also having a bit of an identity crisis, as several people have questioned her people-skills and she’s getting desperate to prove them wrong, and ironically she’s just probing them right) and she is frustrated with Joyce in general lately.
I think your on to something with Dorothy trying to disprove her lack of people skills. One interpretation i haven’t considerd as much is she’s trying to work her charisma into giving herself the voice of authority and Is getting increasingly frustrated that people (mainly Joyce and Joe) arent responding like she they shoul. In her mind If she can’t make her own friend and old frienemy listen to her then how can she get a nation to listen?
If I have to be probed, I’d certainly prefer to be probed right. (Sorry, I try not to make fun of typos, but there are some I just can’t pass up.)
Dorothy, a fledging scholar and passionate about gender studies doesn’t allow her to believe that they can change the mind of people based on her own negative perceptions of them. I think that’s where the “hypocrite” call is coming from.
I mean, gender studies didn’t actually change Joe’s mind. It was the revelation of the list and Joyce’s talk about her experience with Ryan and how Joe’s treatment of women echoed with that.
I really like Dorothy this arc.
Yes, we are ripping in to Dorothy. Because she’s treating Joyce like a child. AGAIN. As if there’s no way Joyce could enter a relationship with Joe unless she had no idea of his history (or was ignoring it). She’s letting her disdain for Joe override her friendship with Joyce. And yes, it’s damned hypocritical of her to do so. She claims to be a feminist. Feminisim is supposed to be all about the ability and right to choose whatever, whenever. She’s trying to deny Joyce the ability to choose an adult relationship because JOE BAD.
And the sooner Joyce slaps her with the wet mackrel of self-awareness, the better for all involved.
Or better still: Joyce blows her off. Dorothy goes to Danny in desperation. And runs into Sal, who having no reason not to, reads her for filth.
The reality is there is nothing like a mother’s disapproval to make a boyfriend more attractive.
‘Dis rightcheer. Now her obsessing mind will obsess yet more.
This comment section is infantilising Joyce way more than Dorothy. -_-
Disapproving Big Sis, then?
“And then he takes out his Tummy Wand and-”
“His what?”
“Nothing. I know that’s not a thing. I’m still working through some stuff, okay?”
Two minutes, I doubt the comic fully loaded before someone made this comment.
Two long long minutes. And then the space-time was brought back into balance.
“Tummy Wand” has now forced itself into my mental list of euphemisms.
I’m starting to wonder what history Dorothy has with Joe we don’t know about. Like it can’t just be he was a super misogynistic dude bro could it?….Actually no, maybe that’s enough.
I mean, she knew him for years. Plenty of time for relatively minor issues to fester into deep resentments
This feels like something more than just knowing him. It feels like Joe or being associated with Joe in some way hurt Dorothy. Like she’s seen first hand what dating him has done to women. Which is strange since Joe has been all about the casual hookup so I can’t imagine him bringing girls or the topic of women around Dorothy at all except in that very bragging way.
Maybe the Future President was worried about the optics for hanging out so much around a sleazy womanizer.
Nonsense, that’s part of the 20 year plan. every president since Eisenhower either had a sex pest bestie or WAS the sex pest bestie.
Consider this comment upvoted.
It’s probably the age old “My best friend dated my BF’s best friend, he was only after casual bang buddies, she wanted more, they broke up, I lost my Best friend because I didn’t break up with BF because I was a moron and didn’t realize he didn’t fit into my 20 year plan for the white house.” Said in the Leslie Knope voice.
Maybe she was aquainted enough with some of the girls Joe had a fling with to know what happened afterwards?
Either that or she’s making a lot of assumptions about what these girls were expecting vs what they got? I’m expecting the former as highschools are generally small enough to be atleast aquainted with nearly everyone in one’s year group…
If Dorothy has seen “what dating [Joe] has done to women,” I wish she’d tell us. The few we’ve seen all seemed satisfied. There are plenty who will tell you, “Joe is creepy” (and they turned him down), but no one has said, “Joe abused me.”
I feel that there are a lot of unspoken assumptions about What Women Want. Not every woman wants the same thing, and any given woman may want different things at different times.
Whatever his flaws, Joe has always been honest and upfront about the fact that he wasn’t interested in anything beyond a quick fling. He seems to have a very good grasp on the meaning of consent, and whenever a woman makes it clear she’s not interested, he quickly backs off and moves on.
Yes, *now*.
Dorothy’s known him for a lot longer than just college.
Also, Joe has a history of repeatedly making sexually-charged comments in Sarah’s direction, for instance, even after she made it clear that she was in no way interested in him. Don’t think that qualifies as “quickly backing off and moving on”.
Jealousy of Joe being closer to Danny than her?
I was going through old dorothy+joe tagged strips for interactions between them (and boy are there a lot of done-with-his-shit expressions on Dorothy’s face when they wind up directly interacting not about Danny)
I think https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/presidential/ is actually extremely telling, even accounting for the fact that Dorothy was elsewise in a bad mood. I can pretty easily imagine years of Joe putting down Dorothy’s ambitions in assorted misogynistic ways thinking he’s funny, while Dorothy feels socially obligated not to object, which he takes as her not minding……
“Aw, c’mon Dorothy, I say stuff like that all the time. You’ve never got mad at me before.”
Yeah, I can definitely see that.
This is a good theory.
Also keep in mind that due to the sliding timescale, Dorothy (19) would now have been born in 2003/2004. She’d have been in high school with Joe during the Trump presidency. Just to add another level of fucked-upness to all that.
it’s worth noting that a couple of strips later he follows them explicitly to apologize for saying that
I mean, the “do list” and this interaction would be enough for me to act like Dorothy is here. And he had that horrible list of ratings that happened like a couple of months ago comic time. She’s just telling her friend not to date a jerkwad, a time honored tradition
Trying to give your friend the best information you have? Cool. Trying to make her decisions for her? Not so cool. Dorothy is dangerously close to pushing this too far.
i remember joe saying he was gonna make her an ‘8’ on his ‘do’ list but i don’t think he mentioned anything about actually hooking up with her (well not that he’d do that/admit it to danny at that point but feels like we would’ve gotten hints? or maybe it’s something like with liz where tehy stop halfway)
There’s an idea going around that she got horny and turned to him for his casual sex specialty during the timeskip, but I don’t see any real support for it.
Seems to me like that’s basically enough. Probably with some level of seeing the aftermath with other girls he’d hooked up with back in high school
Even without being in the know of his most personal conquests in full detail, he still already had the sex scandal video at the start of school
Thank you for this mental image
of Joe
twerking up into Joyce’s face.
Let us pray Willis never draws a Slipshine set inside Joyce’s imagination.
Says YOU, Time Lord
Wait a minute, isn’t imagination where her comic comes from? 😮
I seriously doubt that such a strip would make it past the editor, thank you.
…
Now, if it was girl-on-girl twerking, we all know how insanely thirsty that poor woman is.
For some reason all I could think of when this came up was the evil layer building segment of this strange wonderful nightmare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R1kleY9Jxc
In the days
And weeks ahead
Joyce boutta eat that booty
Like challah bread
*Trying to picture the kneading of the face with the butt*
. . . Like. . . like how some men can flex their pecs like in that one famous gif? But with butt and on the face?
I mean you do you Joyce, but now that image is stuck in my head.
I have seen bike riders who can do that with their glutes, especially after getting off the squat machine.
i suppose a less intense version of twerking? xD
DAMN Joyce. I’m gonna have to start writing this down.
And then illustrating it. And then sharing it!
I don’t know whats worse, being told to “calm yourself” (has telling someone to calm down ever worked?) or grabbing someone from behind so their head jerks back (although I might think its bad because I currently have a stiff neck)
‘Kneading his face with my butt’??
Who are you, and what have you done with Joyce?
It’s 2022, let Joyce eat ass
It is impossible to be in this comic and not get Butts Disease in some form.
Heck, you even have Butt in your nick.
It’s even spreading to the readers! Butts!
ROFL
Sorry, that should have been ‘kneading MY face with HIS butt’ … although that just sounds even worse.
Some people are into that. Not my idea of fun, but what consenting adults do in private is none of my business. In this case, I really want it to be none of my business.
she caught the butts diseasee
I didn’t know Joyce was into that stuff.
So, Joe seduced Dorothy while she was dating his best friend? I’m trying to think what else could explain Dorothy’s grudge against Joe but that’s all I can come up with.
He was a womanizing douche in her general vicinity for about 3 years?
Yea, I’m surprised by all the deeper explanations when it seems like this is the most obvious answer
Some people see Occam’s Razor and decide it would make an amazing component for their Rube Goldberg device.
Hot damn that’s a good one
I own a book about conspiracy theories called “Occam’s Nightmare”. The author describes a tool he calls Dan Brown’s Hammer. Conspiracy theorists use it to nail on ever-greater complications whenever their theory threatens to break down.
Yeah, Joe has objectively not been a real great person for YEARS, and Dorothy is not privy to his efforts at changing on account of being part of the same fictional narrative rather than a close-to-omniscient viewer. And even if she were privy, it’d be pretty reasonable to doubt those efforts as either disingenuous or just not terribly relevant in the face of his history.
Also Joyce has effectively zero actual experience dating, and has actually been a victim of sexual assault *pretty darn recently*.
Honestly it’d be weirder if Dorothy *didn’t* see this as a dangerous thing to be warned against.
Yeah, women cautioning their friends about skeevy men is apparently a really bad, control issue thing now.
I’d be more on board with this take if Joyce hadn’t also known Joe for a semester and a half at this point, including sitting next to him in the gender studies class (and smacking him down for misogyny fairly often, at that).
I’d also be more on board with this take if Dorothy hadn’t been escalating her weird “Joyce is a naive infant who needs a keeper” vibe lately.
The “control issue” comes from the fact that Dorothy is dangerously close to going beyond cautioning to actually trying to make Joyce’s decision for her.
Yeah this. I would support Dorothy saying “Joyce, you need to know just how bad Joe is before you do this,” and even “I really don’t like being around Joe, so please don’t date him” (a little unreasonable, but she can ask).
But instead it started with telling Joe not to date Joyce (in a conversation Joyce didn’t/doesn’t know about), and that given her infantilizing of Joyce, it now seems to be moving to trying to parent her (demanding what Joyce does/doesn’t do and insisting it’s because she knows better and it’s for Joyce’s own good)
Also as far as we know, what Dorothy dislikes is all pretty public and known by Joyce, as Big Z said. Unless she has some bombshell we don’t know about yet (possible but I think unlikely), she isn’t giving Joyce anything new to work with.
Yeah, the rating list that made half the women on campus hate his guts was bad enough lol
I feel like it might be less to do with Joe (although she certainly isn’t friends with him, she hasn’t been adverse to his presence before) and more to do with Joyce. She doesn’t trust Joyce’s judgement and wants to protect her from Joe and his… Joe-ness. Which, I get it… but Dorothy is definitely going overboard with it here. Joyce is an adult, Joyce has also taken the time to get to know Joe and is aware of his flaws and positive traits without excusing those flaws.
Don’t think Joe would do that. I mean he straight out admitted he would try to seduce her once she broke up with Danny but I don’t think he would try while they were still dating.
I have wondered if, back in high school, Dorothy was tempted, risked her relationship with Danny, and came on to Joe. Who, out of loyalty to his friend, declined. There’s a very twisted path from there to her present attitude, and I have no confidence in this notion. I’m just stirring up debate.
Did we know Joyce was all about the ass? I feel like this isn’t the first time she’s mentioned her attraction to booty.
I can’t recall the exact moments offhand, but I vaguely remember her being interested in ass even back when she was dating Ethan.
I think you’re right – I believe she had sent pictures to Becky, maybe? Also, I’m pretty sure the term “tushie” was thrown around at least once.
Also she was checking him out when she woke him to work on their science assignment.
“Him” being Joe in this case.
Oh my god, Becky. Look at his butt. It is so big. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/twohours/
BEST COMMENT.
I think there was a “Hello, Ethan’s tushie? Yes, I’d like to grab you very much” at one point, possibly when she was asking Jennifer if it was possible to smooch a boy without going all the way. And Jacob caught her checking out Ethan’s ass more than once.
This is a conversation that is about to go very poorly for Dorothy.
If not because of Joyce blowing up at her, then because I am about six panels away from crawling through the fourth wall and blowing up at Dorothy myself.
Like ma’am I get that from a Watsonian perspective you are being not entirely unreasonable but I have been waiting for this ship to sail since the day after Dina’s birthday so if you wouldn’t mind–
See, my problem with Dotty here is she claims she’s ‘asking’ Joyce, but asking implies that she would respect Joyce’s decision.
All presented evidence indicates that no, she will not.
This definatley does look like the final straw that could lead to their first real fight, Joyce has expressed previous frustration with Dorothy over her being too in her business and Dorothy hasn’t shown any real acknowledgment that she needs to step back sometimes, despite Jennifer having it spelled out for her.
If JENNIFER thinks you are crossing the line concerning other people’s business….
Also, like… yeah, you WERE in the same Gender Studies class, Dor. You were in that same class with Joe AND Joyce, meaning you spent a semester watching Joyce rake Joe over the coals (deservedly so) every time he breathed misogynistically. Joyce has never tolerated Joe’s shitty behavior (hell, a driving point in their growing friendship was Joyce calling Joe out on being a shithead about his treatment of women and Joe actually taking it to heart) so why are you suddenly assuming that she’s Too Horny To See Joe’s Faults NOW???
Joe’s right, Dorothy does need to have more faith in Joyce.
Joe will never be Anything more then her ex’s sex pest friend to Dotty. It’s going to take an act of Willis to get her to see as anything but the horndog “I don’t want to be emotionally close to women because I’m trash like my father” Joe.
She probably doesn’t even see him as that, considering that would have required Joe to be open about his feelings.
Dorothy has a lot in common with Jennifer.
True!! Joyce never misses a chance to call Joe out, even now! She did it in the life drawing class as well! I suppose we can’t remember everything in our lives, but they must’ve fought often enough that they became known for it. They wanted to pretend continuing to banter after all, after Joyce wanted to hide her atheism.
hopefully she doesn’t try to pull an ultimatum?
or “you know what? i’m going to head off to yale and never see any of you again anyways, so i give up/i’m done” or so lol
When Joyce says “Kneading his face with my butt” it feels innocent in a very slightly risque kind of way. But if Amber used it as a tag on her fanfic it absolutely would not.
*”Kneading *my* face with *his* butt” is what I meant!
Why not both? At the same time. The funny number but with butt kneading.
Amber: That seems like it might be a little difficult to-
Joyce: Silence. You may be my senpai, but you have no idea what I’m capable of. You underestimate my power!
Amber: Don’t try it Joyce!
*in another room*
Joe: ….I sense impending danger.
…Would that be considered a 96?
MY face with HIS butt. Joyce is the one getting a facefull of butt not Joe.
I mean I’d prefer a face of Joyce butt but Joyce has her mind elsewhereJoyce’s hidden but insatiable lust for eating booty
The Butt is Jesus approved.
Which is Ironic, since the butt itself does not approve Jesus.
If it’s the butt cheeks, it’s wholesome.
If it’s between the cheeks, it’s holesome.
Jesus fucking christ.
No, that’s something else.
I believe that would be tagged “selfcest”.
Man, I know this isn’t the point, but I kinda like the fact that Joe being Danny’s friend is just…such a thing that he’s basically a package deal with anyone he dates. You date Danny, you’re dating Joe too. And vice-versa presumably. They’re ride-or-die besties forever and I find that adorable.
It’s cool. Positive male friendships are nice to see. Kind of rare to see one’s that exist beyond the bro culture stereotype.
Probably doesn’t help(?) that they’re roomies.
Though to be fair, Amazi-Girl didn’t really see much of Joe while she was dating Danny.
I’m not sure how much of Joe Sal sees while dating Danny.
Probably a decent amount if she insists on throwing rocks at their window instead of texting Danny like a normal person.
And now theyre siblings. Fate isn’t always direct
What Do You Get When You Fall In Love…
I remember that song, Burt Bacharach wasn’t it?
And Hal David.
Title: “I’ll Never Fall in Love Again”
I just accidentally skipped a line and read this as: “I’ve never ever EVER considered dating Joe! Or putting my mouth […] with his butt,” which seemed like a much deeper admission than I expected Joyce to make.
I choose to believe this is exactly what she meant 😏
did joyce just admit that she’s definitely not been fantasizing about eating joe’s ass?
she has never thought about it once! not one singular time! definitely not on one occasion!!
jesus christ dorothy shut UPPP
THIS
Also: you know that your friend has PTSD.
But I guess being mad at them trumps that, huh?
I totally forgot that, by dating Danny, Dorothy know Joe.
Ok I have Wild theory, Dorothy dig Joe as she dig Walky but dating Danny and her own volition stop her. But that irk is still there and she hates that urge to throw monkey toy at him.
Well, that’s the main part, isn’t it? Dorothy was NEVER Joe’s friend, never considered him part of her circle, and wanted to be rid of him as much as she wanted to be rid of Danny (plausibly more so because of his past behavior).
“Now you’re just somebody that I used to know.” -Gotye
I take it she’s fed up because he’s still tangentially involved with her life.
Yeah the arc of this conversation combined with Joyce’s facial reaction does not bode well for these two not having a row
Ok so Dorothy has officially stepped into “Weird Mom” territory. Literally none of your business, stop treating her like she’s two.
Also, grabbing her like that is absolutely not ok and a great example of Dorothy not respecting Joyce as much as she likes to think she does
She definitely has a way to go before acknowledging that she doesn’t always know what’s best for Joyce or when she needs to back off even when she does.
Also, Assault Mom territory.
“You will regret it.”
Dorothy, I know you can’t observe things from beyond the fourth wall like we can but things don’t tend to go well for people who have No Regrets
Sometimes it works out okay.
Okay, well, other than the part where she nearly yanks Joyce down by grabbing on her hoodie – which I’ll assume is exaggerated for the strip – this conversation is actually going better than anticipated. Dorothy is focusing on Joe and his well-established personality rather than on Joyce and why she needs protection from herself.
I’m hoping Joyce follows example and counters with her reasons for trusting Joe so Dorothy atleast realizes that the two have had something of a stable friendship before getting to this stage but Joyce is also on the defensive now so It could easily just become a straight up argument.
I have returned after several day absence – it has been a heck of a last 5 days. Thank you to all those who wished me luck on my assignments, it meant a lot.
It’s nice you’re back.
I am amused at how they are both just sort of talking past each other in the final panel.
Pretty sure Joyce was aware of Joe’s issues she did go on a date with him once and also chastised him for his womanizing. Also had Mike beat him. Joe is trying to get better but since Dotty doesnt really interact with him as much anymore she probably hasnt seen any growth and just defaults to her view of him prior to university. So I can see where she is coming from but if Joyce explains this and Dorothy defaults to infanatlizatiing Joyce then I would be mad.
Unfortunately Dorothy doesn’t seem to know how to turn off her mom-manage mode yet.
Dorothy not knowing Joe and Joyce have been texting for months and grown close it’s not a BRAND NEW thing. the feelings being shared is a new thing. I get being protective of your friend, but forbidding them to do things ain’t it
also let joyce eat ass
Joyce wants to eat ass confirmed
Dang, Joyce! That’s getting pretty detailed!
On the subject of why Dotty is overstepping here: Joe is one of my favorite characters, but I have no trouble believing that there is no Big Secret That Explains Everything, Dorothy just dislikes him. Because, you see, I have *met Joe.*
That’s a great first panel
Agreed! I think it’s quite dynamic and looks very cool!
If you tell Dorothy that Joe is one of her good friends, you get clotheslined.
Silly Dorothy, you should have expected that Joe would turn up to any class where he thought there might have been a higher chance of women that could potentially have a higher chance of being lesbians.
“Haha! I consider these things five times daily, that’s WAY more than once! The perfect crime!!”
Joyce is horn’t.
didn’t peg joyce to be into, uh, anilingus
Didn’t annilingus Joyce to be into Pegging.
Well this is when the rubber hits the road of both of their communication styles and distances from each other in certain ways
So long they’ve been in a dynamic that’s all “Joyce is a child and Dorothy is a mum”, and they are both trying to not do that but right now Dorothy is still talking at Joyce with more orders from above than actually talking with Joyce and Joyce isn’t even saying what she feels.
Feels bad when good friendships hit these points of struggle with individuals evolution, particularly cause they both care about the other.
Or the deep feelings are so strong and Dorothy cannot lose Joyce to another!
*cut to epic romance cover with Joyce Dorothy and Joe in that pose that anne Hathaway had from the Shakespeare play she did*
This is an artists interpretation that is lovely and also has the picture itself at the last one
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bu2fkASBjmL/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
Dorothy, Joyce might also regret it one day if she goes through her whole college experience following her mom friends orders and never having any memories outside of them.
To those referring to Joe as a misogynistic guy please stop. Misogynistic means he strongly dislikes, despises, kris prejudiced against women. He’s a horny teenager who is very open about what he wants. That’s it. At worst he’s oblivious to why something could be offensive to some people. But he has never demonstrated even the smallest amount of malice towards women.
You don’t need to be consciously malicious to be misogynistic. If you behave in a misogynistic way, like, oh, I dunno, talking about ‘upgrading women’ with your dick and fixing them and making a fuck list that you hand around to everyone you know, you are indeed behaving misogynistically.
The literal definition of misogyny is to dislike, despise, or be prejudiced against women. He can be a dumbass or an asshole, or a self centered dipshit without being misogynistic. Also, he didn’t hand around his fuck list. It was stolen and distributed without his knowledge or permission.
He definitely offered the RSS feed to the list to at least Roz.
He also mentioned its existence to Jacob (“that thing’s even got grannies on it”), while he was dating Raidah, in Raidah’s presence (prompting Raidah to comment “tell me there’s a version of Earth where I didn’t just hear [Joe] has a ‘Do List'”), at which point Joe offered Jacob the password.
etymology isn’t the same thing as definition. he’s behaved misogynistically. It’s a major part of his character arch.
Literally, first storyline, he asks Danny if he’s subscribed to his do-list’s RSS feed. You don’t have an RSS feed with subscribers for a private list.
And prejudice need not be consciously malicious or even conscious to exist. Joe has behaved misogynistically.
“Please don’t call Mary a transphobe. Transphobe means she’s afraid of trans people.”
They’re the same picture.
False!
Joe has become aware his behavior is an issue and is, at least theoretically, trying to change.
Mary is allergic to the suggestion that she might be less than flawless.
Haha, oh yeah.
Fair, but importantly for the context of this strip, Dorothy is entirely unaware of Joe’s growth. To her, the *best* case is that he’s just a douchebag teenage sex pest that she wants to be able to safely ignore far, far away from her day-to-day life and is hopefully mostly harmless.
Hopefully.
True, but that’s not the argument being made here. MisterJinKC is claiming Joe never was misogynistic.
Thank you MisterJinKC. That’s not the word I would have chosen, or anywhere near one. Joe can be crude, juvenile, selfish, and offensively direct, but I’ve seen no evidence that he considers women a lesser order of being, and he does respect a woman’s boundaries when stated. I’d be embarrassed to know him, but that’s the limit.
How Joe’s objectification of women is harmful has been directly addressed.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/object/
He literally talks about ‘fixing’ women with his penis. That is, indeed, misogyny. And no, he does not always respect women’s boundaries. He didn’t back off Sarah until she screamed at him.
As has been common lately, these two are talking past each other.
That honestly feels like where a lot of arguments stem from, just in general: Two people who are having different conversations where they’re absolutley right, but failing to even recognize that they’re not considering the other side’s perspective.
At least at this point Dorothy is starting to lay out her concerns. Joyce’s horny attempts to deny any interest are preventing her from responding with anything that might make Dorothy less worried.
So, if Dorothy and Joe have had a hookup or fling at some point, and Dorothy admits it, would this affect Joyce dating Joe?
I don’t think Joyce would understand “Eskimo sisters”.
Probably, but I doubt that happened.
Almost certainly not before she dated Danny and it’s pretty clear that her opinions about him have been the same since the start of the comic.
Ok Dorothy, you’ve shared your concerns with Joyce, now is the time to back off and let her make her own decision
I disagree. Now is the time for Dorothy to actually present her evidence. All she’s given so far is her judgment. An aspiring politician should know how to lay out the case supporting her position.
An aspiring politician should know to exploit their audience’s prejudices and dance around all issues of evidence.
Joyce really loves crawling into someone’s body part(s), no matter whose
Safe and warm forever…
This is the first time I’ve taken in that Joyce is wearing a set of Dreamsicle-orange sweats, and has topped it off with a slate grey sweater vest.
It’s a *choice*.
You heard it here first: Joyce is interested in Rimming
I know this is a joke, but I’m pretty sure Joyce is imagining this with no butthole involved. Just clean skin (possibly on the other side of clean, dry clothes)
If Joyce is actually going to call Dorothy on None Of Your Beeswax, I am here for it.
But really all I want to say is: Dorothy, WHY did you think a classroom full of potentially sex-positive women was the last place you’d find Joe and not the first? especially in the intro course! I’d bet there’s at least one Joe every term.
Leslie even highlighted that as a reason why people take the course.
So Dorothy’s true motivation comes out. If her daughter gets with Joe, she’ll never be rid of him!
Much as I don’t think this is Any Of Dorothy’s Business, I’m still glad she’s making an effort to warn Joyce about Joe as she knows him. I don’t really care if she’s not expressing it in the single most absolutely optimal way, because this isn’t a fucking speedrun, like most things in life. Yeah, she could do this or that or the other, but oh well. She’s doing this, not those other unspecified things.
Proud of Joyce for definitely not admitting she wants to motorboat Joe’s asscheeks like it’s Friday night at the fishin’ club, which she totally doesn’t wanna do and therefore cannot admit to wanting.
I agree with that.
Today is a hard strip to think about it: if it was me, I would be gladly if a friend warm me about a bad girl, at same time I would think they are doubting me I can get a girl. Or, my friend want to get her first.
I don’t know.
This is true. But also, beyond the first date and their conversations about the topic after the do list dropped. Her interactions with Joe have been mostly positive and a source of stability.
Definitely, and she doesn’t have all the info on joe unlike us the audience who has seen his true colors and how he’s changed
So o course I can understand her skepticism, abd know that it does come from a place of caring for joyce, but at the same time, I can’t help but worry how she will react when joyce inevitably double downs on joe, since she HAS been talking with him for a while now and has seen him beyond his reputation
And lately she has been verrrry judge of Joyce’s choices, or treating her like a child.and frankly i think it’s going to blow up soon. Somethings got to give from one of them
Please ignore my typos being on my phone with a shite.wrist does that
Honestly, as someone who had a friend not want to intrude and thus didn’t warn me about a guy, it’s so much better to give the warning! Even if they choose not to use that information at first, they are warned and can more easily recognize the problem behavior as a real, systemic issue.
Being told about how the guy got invasive and creepy even in his old friend group may have saved me from months of threatening messages after I tried getting to know him, got uncomfortable with how he treated me, and rejected him (he never actually asked me out, but acted like I was his girlfriend and started acting pretty controlling so I confronted him on it… only for him to get VERY angry).
It may “not be her business”, but if you have information that may be very pertinent to the person and relationship, I’d say it’s the right think to do to inform your friend – Dorothy is admittedly being rather forceful here, could just leave it at a warning/description of other experiences she’s had with Joe and let Joyce decide what to do with that info, but I’d say it’s a much better friend move to care and get involved than to shrug and decide it’s not her problem.
I think people treat Joe like a creep to much like i understand that the list was very cringe but that was never meant to see the light of day dude had his privacy violated
if Amber can have her fanfiction Joe can slide on his very immature list
He shared it on purpose with everyone he met. What fucking “privacy”?
Also, I’m pretty sure this comment section has called out Amber in the past when she does real-person-fics, as that’s legitimately something to take issue with as well
zamn really ig i missed that
coulda sworn it was his own middle schooler tier cringe database
i stg it was password protected tho like that was the whole point that danny’s shitty middle schooler webcode was not secure at all leaking the list to everyone he knew
The best way to keep a password secure is to not hand it out. Joe did exactly that, and apparently Danny never changed it at any point, so all it would have taken was one person he willingly handed it out to, deciding to spread it around.
I still think it was Raidah.
Oh, definitely. On the list of suspects, she’s right at the very top. As ridiculous and petty and childish as she is, I still don’t think she’d get access to something like a “Do List” and just let that information dangle without doing something about it.
This list was dangerous. Not just cringe.
All of this would make way more sense if Joyce have actually expressed romantic interest, but since it’s all sexual, Dorothy does honestly just seem kind of irrational here. Like, if Joyce had shown any sign that she was falling for Joe in a real way, that’d be different. But, like, you can have sex with people who you wouldn’t want to be best friends with.
Sure, some people don’t group sexual and emotional and romantic intimacies as a package deal, and can have no-strings fuckbuddies. I don’t think Joyce can, though… I think she’ll only want sexytimes with somebody whom she can really trust, and she’s likely to bundle that trust with romance.
Nothing wrong with wanting that whole package. Sex, trust, and romance are a great bundle. I typically go for that deal, too — many types of intimacy at once, please. ♡
It’s just, that’s not the deal that Joe has ever once advertised to people in Dorothy’s hearing — he’s been very loud about wanting the opposite. (Unbeknownst to Dorothy, that’s because Joe’s afraid he can’t have romantic and sexual intimacy at once.)
…More to the point, from Dorothy’s perspective, Joe is mad annoying, and Dorothy is sick of having him around. If Joe and Joyce date, Joe will be around a lot more. Yuck!
There’s also the difference between what one wants and what one thinks one should have. I think that Joyce will let herself be led by the former close to the point of no return, but ultimately give more weight to the latter.
That’s true in the abstract, but this is Joyce and Dorothy knows her well.
And she’s right. Joyce is horny, but it’s also all tied up with romantic interest.
What all the horny talk does is just reinforce to her that Joyce isn’t thinking clearly about Joe.
oh he 100 percent hears this and will be devastated
Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Kneading my face with his butt
Knee-eading my face, with his butt
Telling my whole life, with his words
Knee-eading my face… with his butt
🎶
Can we all just take a moment to forget how cute Joyce & Joe’s developing thing is and think about, objectively, what if we had a friend we cared about who said to us “Look, I know you’ve known him a lot longer and he’s always been a low-key shitty misogynist, but I alone can see beneath all that to the good inside that I’m sure I can bring out.” about a guy they are drooling over. How many of us would REALLY think our friend was thinking clearly and making good decisions?
….
Okay, moment over, now we can go back to thinking about Joyce&Joe being cute
Especially since Joyce hasn’t actually said any of that, just talked about all the sexy things she definitely doesn’t want to do to him. She hasn’t even tried to explain that they’ve actually made a non-sexual connection and that Joe has been changing.
Dorothy, physical fucking assault crosses the line.
yeah that. hai ptsd trigger
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Dorothy has a lot of similarities with Carol Brown.
Well, I don’t know if Dorothy would go as far as to KILL, but yeah I’m sick and tired of infantilizing ableism too.
Is this really “assault”? She grabbed her hoodie. Like, I wouldn’t appreciate it either, it’s rude as fuck and unnecessarily physical, but it’s not a physical attack. Joyce isn’t in harm’s way, she’s in no danger, and Dorothy wouldn’t hurt her.
Assault is pretty broad, and she did hoodie-choke her. The complicated thing is that it’s a comic so it’s hard to know when something is intended cartoonishly vs when it’s intended seriously.
This. I’m leaning on “it’s a comic, its not meant to be taken as it would in real life” at the moment, if only because of the characters involved and how Joyce seems to have no issue with it.
I guess that makes sense, and I’m certainly not trying to downplay assault. I get wary sometimes of watering down big important terms by using them for lesser things, is all. The lack of Joyce taking offense leads me to think it’s Not That Serious.
Assault is very broad and in some contexts even a simple touch can technically qualify, but it’s also a common rhetorical trick to use that broadest definition to imply equivalence with the more common understanding of assault as actual violence.
Given that Joyce shows no sign of any physical distress here, I think it’s pretty safe to assume the hoodie-choking didn’t involve any actual choking.
I think at worst she experienced an instant of very minor clotheslining. Her collar doesn’t even seem especially tightened by the pull, possibly due to complex hoodie/backpack physics.
We need to stop demonizing any and all physical interaction by treating it as equivalent to actual harm. It helps nobody and makes people afraid of each other for no reason.
also that the action lines are “surprised” ones around her head, rather than around her neck or anything
to further clarify I don’t think what happens on this page is assault, just that yeah, technically the action could be (especially if it then escalated). Incredibly rude though.
This dispute seems to be between “assault” the Term of Art and “assault” in Ordinary Language.
No no, you see, Dorothy grabbing her hoodie and having some mom-friend tendencies makes her comparable to friggin’ Carol
/s, so very much
I dunno if I’d go quite that far, even as sarcasm.
It’s being stated without sarcasm just a few comments above me.
Yes.
Literally not what I said.
Your exact words: “I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Dorothy has a lot of similarities with Carol Brown.”
IIRC, Joyce snagged Walky’s hoodie once, to make sure he went to calc. I think he escaped by disrobing.
I was a little wrong. He didn’t escape from the hoodie grab directly. But he later escaped by disrobing (faking the rapture).
You shouldn’t fake the Rapture. It’s not a joke. Millions of families get Raptured every year.
Just keep your doors closed and you should be safe. As long as they don’t figure out how to open them…
Please tell me you’re kidding.
As readers, we know Joe acts in good faith and is growing up as a person, but Dorothy doesn’t know that. To her he’s just the same old misogynistic jock :/
Expanding:
Joe’s convo with his dad about not trusting Richard to not cheat on Stacy.
The two text conversations Joyce and Joe had about things including her know-divorcingp parents, and more deep stuff.
I’m really interested in what Dorothy has or hasn’t heard of these off-panel.
Probably nothing.
If she’d known anything of Joyce and Joe talking beyond the most casual context, she wouldn’t have been so surprised when he showed up to join them for lunch.
big jump between Joyce’s second and third options but I’m in
Yeah this is very much a “I DO NOT WANT THIS HUMAN IN MY LIFE, PLEASE DO NOT PUT HIM IN MY LIFE” thing. If Joyce and Joe start hanging out all the time then she’ll have to be around him. Even his change of heart doesn’t necessarily mean much to her if she finds his entire personality unbearable.
(but she did make Walky part of Joyce’s life and Joyce found Walky insufferable, so it’s kinda payback.)
Someone else pointed that out (might have been on Patreon) and it’s been stuck in my head since. Joyce’s complaints were less serious, but all the same mostly ignored.
i get the concern but other than lovey dovey couples being attached at the hip or double dating (i mean joyce put up with walky well enough), but doesn’t mean ppl in relationships can’t hang out one on one together , or have some girls only night hangout at each others rooms (tho i can imagine sarah being grumpy about that)
Sarah might be but there is also Dorothy and Becky’s room
I mean sure, you can hang out one-on-one too, but there will be more Joe in her life if Joyce is dating (or consistent FWBs with) him. Today is evidence of that.
(in-universe today not this specific strip)
If Joe + Joyce takes off, it’s an opportunity for Joyce to ask Joe, “please don’t tease Dorothy so much — she’s my friend.”
OK, so I always thought the Dorothy’s problem with Joe was in the “unsufferable/bad influence bestie of my boyfriend” category, but now there seems to be something more. Is Dorothy just jealous?
I think its more that this is a somewhat personal thing. Like, Joe, in his teenage douchebaggery, hurt someone that Dorothy knows, and it created a bit of a wedge, something that she’s been trying to keep on the down-low for a while.
And as everyone knows, nothing goes bad when you try to repress your feelings on something!
I mean the implication here is she never like him because he was a douchebag and only tolerated him because of Danny. i.e. Joe was the broken stair. And now she’s warning Joyce about the broken stair. Joyce probably thinks she’s a carpenter.
This is a fine analogy. I have not taken it too far.
I disagree, part with the use of broken stair (since I think Danny is the only person that really shrugged off Joe), but mostly because I don’t think Joyce is going into this thinking she can fix him (perhaps thinking he is already what she’d consider fixed, but I don’t think she sees him as a project boyfriend)
Oh my… Joyce, kneading your face with his BUTT? Oh ho, you ARE learning fast! 😉
She’s beginning to believe.
Somebody PLEASE sketch that and put it up on Imgur. That would just be frigging hilarious.
Hey, she’s an aspiring writer, and she’s simply doing research.
But(t) TF out, Dotty!!
“With his BUTT? How would that even– oh, there’s a sketch.”
I believe that falls under the heading of “worldbuilding”.
DOROTHY TRYIN TO STOP JOYCE FROM EATING JOES ASS
YOU KNOW WHO ELSE DIDNT WANT PEOPLE EATING ASS
MOTHERFUCKING NAZIS THATS WHO
I can’t believe it. I don’t wanna believe it. But it’s true. Dorothy Margot Keener is a Nazi. 😢
And whoever disagrees is a nazi!!!!! Sorry 💁♀️
Maybe if people don’t wanna be accused of being Nazis, they shouldn’t be Nazis. 💅
She’s even maybe half jewish!
Aren’t there Jewish readers here? Is it bad taste to joke about Nazis? I’m genuinely asking, not judging.
If we go back to the comments on the strip where Becky did that with Joyce’s siblings, it would seem so.
Otherwise, I’ve never really seen it. Avoid joking about being a Nazi or about the Nazis being right, but hyperbolic comparisons to Nazis being bad haven’t usually raised any concerns. Other than Godwin’s Law.
Do you know who else brought up Godwin’s Law? Hitler, that’s who.
Or he would have if the Interweb had been around back then.
Now that he’s formulated a second law, it really should be called Godwin’s First Law.
I feel like a lot of people have forgotten about the truly awful things Joe has said and done.
I dislike Joe too, but couldn’t Joyce fuck Joe just for fun? Once or twice and after, left him?
She get what she need and good-bye?
Nobody’s forgotten. But what? He’s only an adult by legal technicality, is everything he did as a kid supposed to mark and stain and taint him forever? No chance to take those shitty actions and use them as a stepping stone to learn and grow and fix himself? If a person isn’t allowed to grow, then what options are left? You don’t forget the past, but you can’t let it be the sum and total of who you are and who you try to be going forward. Otherwise, everyone who screws up as a kid may as well just kill themselves and leave the board entirely, since there’s nothing left for them. Is that what people want? Because that’s the mindset that gets created, just nothing but despair and hopelessness.
I know Joe is a fictional character, but when we constantly harp on the past and bring it up as if nothing has happened since, real people are reading it. Maybe I’m just being touchy about this, but that’s where I’ve been before and that’s where it leads.
You’re being touchy, yes. Just a teeny bit.
I mean yeah, but it still makes sense for Dorothy to be wary of him
So what?
But at the same time, even when you change, you can’t expect everyone to install trust and accept it, especially when you’ve been continuing to pose as the same to most people.
Joyce has accepted that he’s changed and grown, because she’s been part of it. Dorothy hasn’t seen that. No one has even told her that he’s changed.
I think the vast majority of people here are happy for the Joe/Joyce relationship, but many can also see why Dorothy isn’t. Which is why we keep bringing up Joe’s past problems.
At this point, the whole “Dorothy has reason not to trust Joe” thing has just been repeated to the point of exhaustion.
And the “can’t expect et cetera et cetera” thing, too. It’s old news.
I mean sure, but so has the “Dorothy is so evil and controlling and Joe is such an innocent bunny” thing. (Slight exaggeration there. Maybe.)
Who called Joe an innocent bunny?
He’s so obviously a beagle.
As a dude who had to grow out of some backwards-ass mentality during my first year of college, I feel this in my bones (but maybe at about 20% the vitriol level because it HAS been twenty years 😀 ).
And all anyone ever wants to talk about when it’s brought up is “Well, nobody OWES you this or that”, which is just changing the subject. Who fucking cares about social debt or whatever? It makes any attempt at improvement immediately punishable.
Orrr people do remember but acknowledge he hasn’t done anything totally irredeemable granted his fairly successful recent efforts at change. If every person IRL were held to the retroactive standards characters in this comic are, we’d all be considered terrible people forever because I guarantee you everyone here has been imperfect at some point in their past and had to learn and grow.
And even beyond that, these are fictional characters and they should therefore be held to an even lower standard than IRL people. Because it’s fiction. If Joyce wants to date a murderous space vampire a-la Julia Grey that will not, in fact, hurt any real people in real life.
“Not even ONCE did I dream of him as a bipedal dogman asking for help burying a comically oversized bone!”
I believe Joyce and Joe will, eventually, become a couple, as you can see this header. How they look in the same line, as if they are walking side by side…
Isn’t that actually from the start of this arc, when the three of them were first walking to lunch? Or a redrawing of it for the header, more likely.
Possibly. Joyce’s hair in that banner is different. She wore it in a Biillie-esque ponytail during the Jacob storyline, and so it feels like an intentional callback for it to resurface now. Also the outfits are different.
Wow, Dorothy really hates Joe. I did not expect that.
Alas, Joyce is too distracted to simply explain the character arc 😔
Dorothy is becoming increasingly annoying.
She wants Joyce not to hook up with the guy she’s spent years wishing she could get rid of, and that’s annoying to you?
Telling your friend to calm themselves and physically yoinking them backwards when all they wanna do is go to their room and draw horny comics is… Pretty condescending and infantalizing, IMO. I’d call it annoying.
But they’re all adorable, young dumb little goobers who mostly mean well, so hopefully this conversation leads to some better communication between the two.
It will likely… EVENTUALLY lead to better communication.
The message is entirely understandable. Dorothy hasn’t seen Joe change like the audience has and dude was NOT great last time she paid any attention to him. However, you can be a concerned friend warning someone about a creep without pulling your friend back by the hood, and you certainly can try and warn someone while also respecting their autonomy.
Also no, I don’t think Dorothy would really have the right to stop her friend from hooking up with someone just because she’s been trying to get rid of Joe for years. That’s not what’s happening here, but I figured I’d answer the question.
That’s not a question anybody asked, though. The comment you’re replying to asked if the OP was annoyed by Dorothy doing the described action, not whether Dorothy has the right
Approximately as annoying as some of the more self-righteously judgmental portions of the comment section over the last couple weeks.
I’ve kinda had side eye about Dorothy ever since the whole dumping Danny because of her Plan. This is business isn’t helping with that.
Yoinking your kid by the hoodie to get their attention is… Pretty unnecessary, IMO. Doing it to your adult friend because you play mom is some next level infantalizing (at least, I assume Willis means it that way and not as physical comedy given the tone of Joyce and Dorothy’s interactions lately).
Also come on Dotty, Joe is available and Joyce has kneads.
I can’t believe Dorothy grabbed Joyce by the jacket, swung her in multiple circles, and threw her at a nearby explosive device, shouting “So long, gay Joyce!” when she let go.
I was so shook when she yelled “It’s-a me, Dorothy!”
Joyce sure jumped fast from “I Have Never Deliberately Entertained A Sexual Thought In My Life” to “I’m Gonna Eat His Ass.” I’m impressed.
she won’t eat taco bell unless she can personally oversee the taco creation, but she’ll eat cake like her last name was Bogtrotter
from 1 demanding controlling mother to the next.
something tells me joyce is going to snap at her for trying to be as controlling as her mother was.
I get Dorothy’s concern but I really think Joyce and Joe could be good together. Like “opposites attract” but they actually compliment each other and bring out the better in each other, and help each other get out of opposite toxic traits. It could go bad, sure, but it could also go really well.
Some very specific hypothetical imaginings which have definitely not been imagined!
..Side note, I do not recall any point where Danny and Joyce have interacted,
like at all
Nor can Joyce.
She vaguely recalls a hat.
I’m looking forward to an eventual double date, Joyce and Danny having a heart-to-heart, and Joyce still being unable to remember Danny.
I think there was a strip where she went something like “I’m sorry who are you?”
I know there is a storyline related purpose for both of Joyce’s closest friends, individually, to be boundary-smashing weirdos about at least some parts of their relationship, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I wonder if it has something to do with Joyce being (or at least having been) a boundary-smashing weirdo.
That… kind of went to a weird place, Joyce.
Also, they are now definitely talking past/not actually listening to each other.
They learned it from you, dad.
Or however that quote goes.
I’m glad Dorothy has stopped Joyce for tell her what worries her. Is so unusual seeing her so upset, the possibilities that Joe the eternal nuisance would return in her life like when she was with Danny is probably too much for her. Sad to see that Joyce is unable to understand her drama, for now.
Some of you have never been a bad person and it shows.
Kneading…my face…with…???
I like the art in panel one.
Hahaha, you guys are making this so i overblown, this is a normal friend interaction between people who are close to each other. They’re both just expressing themselves. The loud active denial instead of just saying nothing is a phase Joyce is going through while working through her repression, and dorothy should be allowed to express negative emotions normally. They’re close friends, and girls, so it’s normal for them to try to defend each other from potentially misogynistic boys. The hoodie thing is a thing Joyce does to other characters and is probably fine?
It’s truly incredible how any given action made by any character is immediately the worst thing that anyone has ever done and means they are irrevocably abusive or something.
Either that, or whitewashing the character’s actions almost to the point of absurdity (see: the multiple commenters further up who are literally saying “Joe has never been misogynistic, stop saying he was”—or to pull up an old example, the “Mary was just trying to study” arguments which got so bad at one point that over a thousand comments—an entire day’s worth—got mass-nuked in their entirety, and the comments section kept closed for a couple of days afterward in a heavy-handed but ultimately-successful move to contain the situation).
Straight up. I feel like totally normal behavior gets lit up with ten times the intensity as the actual horrible shit that some of these characters have gotten up to. It’s very strange.
Dorothy. DO NOT pull on Joyce’s hood like you would a traffic-seeking dog’s leash. That is wildly inappropriate, and technically speaking assault.
Please go outside.
Rude.
Never, ever considered dating him? She actually went on a date with him! Granted, it was a disaster, but still a date.
he’s slept with quite a few girls in the first semester, but what did he do that makes him so bad? I think she’s making some unfair assumptions, dare I say, slut shaming?
I think mostly just a lot of lewd comments. I imagine it was worse in high school, too. At the start of the comic he was basically that guy that had to make every situation into a joke about sex.
The website where he ranked real, recognizable girls as to fuckability? Ugh.
Lots of people posing theories varying from likely to bizarre, so mine:
Dorothy has never mentioned friends from home other than Danny and Joe. Joyce, Becky, Ruth, Walky, Sal, Billie, and probably others have, so it’s not like the comic ignores their lives and relationships that aren’t main canon.
Maybe Dorothy kept having Joe hook up with her friends, then when they broke up (or didn’t hook up again), didn’t want to hang around Joe, and since Danny was so attached to him, and Dorothy dating Danny, they ended up stopping talking to Dorothy as well.
This would also play well, I think, with the resentment Dorothy had toward Danny, especially early in the comic, and it would explain why she is this mad about a friend being interested
*by ‘having’ I mean that it kept happening to Dorothy, not that Dorothy was setting them up on dates
These denials are getting oddly specific.
Oh lord, I was just reading back through the archives and…what if Dina is ultimately responsible for Joyce’s wish to investigate Joe’s butt?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/tushie/
I mean probably not, but this is absolutely cracking me up for some reason.
Has somebody already blocked out the memory of going on a date with Joe on like, day one?