Also correct. Joyce absolutely should speak to someone, but there are differences in kind and degree here that reasonably make Dina… not super capable of helping without hurting herself. And despite Dine being blunt about it, that would not be cool.
We autistics are not only different from neurotypicals, but also each other, hence, neuro-diversity.
For sure Dina has a thorough understanding of neurodivergence and how it works (to say the least), and did a really good job of informing Joyce that they are NOT going to automatically get along better on account of their autism.
I don’t think that’s what Joyce was going for. I think Joyce is trying to learn by asking someone who is actually living with the issue. The degree to which they’re affected is very different, but trying to talk to the only person you know with actual experience is reasonable. Dina isn’t a perfect fit,, but she’s the closest available. That said, Dina has no obligation to help her.
First of all, “degree” seems to imply that the autism experience exists on a single dimension, which it clearly doesn’t. Neurodiversity, including the stripes that fall into the autism category, have many dimensions to how they effect each other in individuals, which is why I find terms like “spectrum” really misleading.
Dina understands that Joyce never put that much effort into her relationship with her, and is evidently only putting in that effort now because she assumes it’s gonna be easier to bond on account that they’re both autistic.
I totally get Dina’s response here, I also hate these kinds of hurtful assumptions, especially when made by someone I would barely call my friend.
Joyce is asking for help with a problem she has even having trouble accepting about herself, but which would also help her be infinitely more aware of her issues and understand more about herself. If she is also trying to befriend Dina, that is not a problem, that is a natural part of the human existence.
As an autistic who didn’t discover what I was until I was 18, I can flat out tell you that Dina is a fucking conga right now for assuming that Joyce didn’t suffer in ignorance. Being labeled, despite the preconceptions it brings, at least also brings understanding. I went through an extremely troubled youth without ever knowing why I was different and failing to grasp things. Joyce herself was literally brainwashed, and more susceptible to it then most, because of her issues.
Dina is being a bongo, which is sad to see coming from a character that I believe tends to be fairly logical, but the signs were always kind of there that she can be extremely callous and cruel if someone has earned her disfavor.
I think people are forgeting who the person who called Dina a robot is. And I’m pretty sure she’s one of the people who’s infantalised her in the past too. Joyce is fucking out of line and there’s no reason to be insulting Dina here.
I think Marilius’ critique of Dina here is a bit excessively harsh, though I very much understand the emotions behind it. Dina IS being problematic in dismissing Joyce’s experience. It’s a form of lateral ableism, and unfortunately a very common one. This sort of attitude doesn’t help the disability community as a whole, it only furthers stigma and bias that makes it difficult for people with less obvious struggles to be believed/taken seriously, and it especially hurts when it comes from within your own community.
That said, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to judge her as callous and cruel as a whole because of this response. I don’t think Dina’s response is intended to come from a place of apathy or cruelty, but from frustration and resentment. She is a person who has very obviously struggled with how her autism affects most aspects of her life, and has not received any external support (beyond, presumably, that of her awesome parents). That is a very insulating and frustrating thing. It does not *justify* her dismissal of Joyce’s experience here, but it does explain it. I don’t think she would respond the same way if she had a proper support system. In my experience, this kind of resentful lateral ableism is very common among disabled people who feel like they have no recourse, no support, and don’t see their situation changing any time soon despite their best efforts. Dina’s anger is very justified, even if she is misdirecting it and placing it unfairly onto joyce.
That said, I also disagree with the comments that Joyce is out of line for simply asking Dina if she can talk to her about autism. Dina previously inserted her own experience into Joyce’s convo about her referral so it’s not unreasonable for someone to take that as an indicator that person is willing to talk about this issue further.
Additionally Billy/Jennifer told Joyce to do this, and Dina is currently the only person Joyce knows who also likely has autism. Expecting Joyce, who has had a lot of new info dumped on her pretty fast, and who grew up fairly sheltered and without much experience seeking support outside her church community, to know she can go online to find support, is a bit unrealistic.
Joyce and Dina have both been tactless with each other in the past. Dina herself has shown up (while Joyce was not feeling well) to question her pretty critically and intensely about her upbringing, which might also be arguably a violation of boundaries for some people. They’ve never had a frank discussion about their issues with each other. Joyce has been rude and dismissive to Dina about her social issues, Dina has been rude and condescending to Joyce about her religious upbringing. Neither character is perfect. Both have a lot to learn.
Dina is 100% within her rights to set a boundary here. She is by no means obligated to have this conversation with Joyce. But I also can’t blame Joyce for not automatically knowing Dina wouldn’t want to talk about this and I think it’s unfair to say it’s out of line for her to just ask the question. If she kept pushing after Dina said no, that would be out of line (and who knows maybe she will, maybe she won’t) but just asking the one person she knows with autism if they can talk about their likely shared diagnosis is a very normal thing to do.
Also speaking as an Autist here, and directly responding to The Wellerman, since the comment alignment format here likely won’t make that clear.
When others are talking about degree, or using the term spectrum, they aren’t discounting the many and varied factors that make all of us on the spectrum different, they are merely referencing a specific one, and arguably the most objective, easily “measured” one. Our level of functioning in society. The two “ends” of the spectrum are low-functioning and high-functioning, and *because* there’s such a large number of ways that each of our cases are different, that’s kind of the only way we *can* be categorized. It’s also, from the perspective of the neurotypical, the most important descriptor that distinguishes us, because it determines how much help we might require (remember, the people to coin this terminology were *doctors*, so they mostly care about what needs to be done to help).
Joyce may be on the spectrum, but she’s on the *high* functioning end, while Dina, while not *especially* low-functioning, is quite clearly lower on that spectrum, and as such it is incredibly frustrating that someone who, from Dina’s perspective, is so incredibly privileged as to be sufficiently high-functioning that nobody noticed until now is coming to *her* for help. The severity is the *root* of her issue here, so it’s only natural that that is the difference that is largely in discussion here.
I get what you’re trying to say, but there’s something really off to me about referring to Dina as being “lower functioning” than Joyce. Or anyone for that matter.
Personally I REALLY hate the high-functioning/low-functioning concept, and many autistic people and activists do as well. Support needs differ WILDLY, and people can be what would be considered ‘high-functioning’ in some areas and ‘low-functioning’ in others simultaneously. We usually say that it’s a spectrum in that there’s such a wide range of traits associated with being autistic (often with associated traits at either extreme of an option – sensory seeking vs aversion, or low empathy and hyperempathy both being considered ‘autistic traits’,) and we all have different toppings from the ice cream buffet of Autism Stuff. Some of us have higher support needs than others, some of us can mask better, but those two things can coexist simultaneously, we’re not “less autistic” if we can mask.
The saying I’ve heard on a few occasions is that “high-functioning” is frequently a term used to deny support (because you don’t REALLY need that accommodation,) where “low-functioning” is used to deny agency (because you can’t POSSIBLY advocate for yourself or hold opinions if you’re nonspeaking, or have an intellectual disability, or need help with tasks of daily living.) Both are significant problems!
Like, it is totally possible to be a nonspeaking autistic who lives independently and can hold a job, or to be capable of masking in public but unable to live independently. There are autistic activists who need full-time aid to help them do things like use the bathroom, but are still perfectly capable of expressing their needs. Autistics with intellectual disabilities who, again, are making themselves heard and can be less heavily impacted in another sphere (and the greater community is not always great about making sure they’ve got a place at the table, too.) We’re all still equal parts autistic as each other, because autism cannot be measured, it simply Is A Thing We Are.
That said, I DO think Dina and Joyce both might be thinking of this under the “more or less autistic” model, because they’re both teenagers who maybe haven’t read up as much on that sort of theory as I, an autistic whose special interests INCLUDE autism, have. Which is an understandable thing for both fictional characters and humans, because it’s not the way current discussions tend to frame things outside our community, but that’s why I’m willing to wade into this 500-something comment section and go into Education Mode. For future reference: A whole lot of us don’t like that because it is not just used to harm us, it is also wildly reductive and wrong! And now you know.
Responding to Regalli (I really wish I could just
click respond to whoever I wanted) – I agree, I read
a post on tumblr about how the high/low functioning label
is a lose-lose situation. I think it had recommended just
labelling the amount of support that someone with autism
needs instead (needs aid, needs nonverbal support,
needs to be removed from overwhelming stimuli, etc.).
Unfortunately, that doesn’t come with a convenient short-hand
label, but that way it doesn’t lead to those choices of losing
support or losing autonomy.
Also, I never liked the stigma that comes with the low functioning
term either, or how some autistic people I read about used
those terms to be condescending, e.g. “I’m not like those autistics, I’m high functioning.”
Responding to Autogatos (really would like to
respond directly still) – I fully agree with your assessment.
Dina is being harsh, but she is still upset with how easily
it was for Joyce to be diagnosed, while she
struggled for diagnosis (and still hasn’t received it). And while
it may not be nice for Dina to not offer conversation with Joyce about
this at this time, she’s well within her rights not to.
I also agree with you that Joyce wasn’t crossing a line or anything
to want to talk with Dina about this. They have both been dismissive
of each other in the past (Joyce regarding her upbringing and beliefs,
Dina for her behaviors and acceptance of evolution), but they still seem
to be on talking terms to me. Acquaintance-level at least, with more
knowledge of each other possibly due to close living spaces.
So in short, your takes are hot and your frontal lobes are huge 😛
I would ask anyone who is jumping on the DINA IS BENG SUCH AN ASS bandwagon to please imagine it this way:
An unpleasant rival or bully from your own past has just gotten up in your grill all “get this man we have the SAME PROBLEM! We can BOND over this! Isn’t that GREAT??? We’re the same!”
This person isn’t a friend. You kind of hate them. You want them to go away. They have repeatedly mistreated you.
Are you really gonna be all eager to open up to them? Be honest.
Sure, but lets be realistic here. Even with referral in hand, talking to an actual psychologist is probably months away. Doesn’t solve her problems now.
Talking to Joe might be good, but it’s not a conversation Joe’s going to be at all comfortable with. Talking to Dina was actually a good idea and one suggested to her earlier. It obviously fell through.
Maybe not. I might be stretching a bit here, but Joyce even has the upper hand in talking to a psychologist. Since she was involved in the kidnapping incident AND has a referral, the school could front line her to a psychologist ASAP. While Dina wouldn’t have that advantage, as she wasn’t as directly involved in the incident as Joyce was.
Well at least Joyce didn’t wait until Dina was sick and in pain to literally sit on her and demand Dina satisfy her curiosity. What Joyce said to Dina then was rude but Dina richly deserved a tell-off and is lucky Joyce was too sick to violently toss her off the top bunk or punch her in the face.
It’s good Dina is honest here, but she also needs to stop eves-dropping on Joyce, following her around in hopes of seeing some juicy drama, inserting herself into Joyce’s private and fraught conversations, and breaking into her room. No wonder Joyce thought Dina would talk to her.
how does literally everyone not notice that dina got off her. dina was literally doing the social action that she thought joyce wanted- its not her fault joyce isnt communicating to people that she’s changed and doesn’t want those things anymore.
I don’t think Dina was ever actually sitting on Joyce, either. It looked more like she was hovering over her; arms on either side of Joyce’s body, and possibly legs on either side of Joyce, too, by the looks of some of the panels (we don’t ever get a good look at the composition).
> how does literally everyone not notice that dina got off her.
Eventually. Joyce said that she was in pain and asked/told Dina to get off her, and Dina’s reply was “not until you answer my question.” Satisfying her curiosity was more important than Joyce’s discomfort or her request.
dang youre like really stuck on dina sitting on joyce, huh. i hope you expend all that energy for the many, many times joyce did the exact same thing dina did to her to other people.
A think that I think keeps getting left out of this convo is: I’m not sure Dina has ever made it clear how she feels about Joyce. She has been perfectly willing to talk to Joyce about stuff and ask HER questions about her and Becky’s upbringing in the past. She obviously had issues with Joyce’s religious beliefs and how dogmatic and preachy Joyce was about them, but Joyce is changing in that respect. (Granted Joyce has shifted to being dogmatic and preachy about atheism but I don’t really see that bothering Dina).
This comic has been going long enough that it’s hard to remember every interaction but I find it odd everyone is suddenly like “Joyce should know not to talk to Dina because Dina hates her.” They’ve had some tension, on both sides, but to me it’s very unclear where they stand in general and it seems like it can vary from cordial to tense at any given moment.
And while it is very reasonable for Dina to set a boundary when she doesn’t want to talk about something, taking it as far as saying Joyce should know better than to ask her this because of their rivalry, when Dina seems able to set it aside when SHE wants to know something, seems fairly unfair.
Has Joyce ever actually mistreated Dina in any meaningful way, though? The worst I can remember is her being vaguely dismissive of her, infantized her, maybe?
It seems to me Dina’s just projecting her own bad experiences onto Joyce and antagonizing her because she’s been more fortunate in having her condition identified and acknowledged, but that really isn’t Joyce’s fault at all. If anything, that’s a societal problem or maybe just circumstantial.
You don’t treat people with scorn just because they’re more fortunate or more privileged than you, okay? Those things only become a problem in the first place when they’re used as a justification to mistreat and exploit people.
Dina’s feelings are understandable, but I feel she’s absolutely in the wrong here. If Joyce has anything to learn, it’s to be more aware and considerate of other people’s circumstances, which to be perfectly honest, is a lesson just about anyone else in the comic could stand to learn tbh.
People have pointed out a few times when Joyce has treated Dina badly ..
– when she first introduced Becky to the floor she was rather dismissive of her beliefs in evolution (and talked about her like she wasn’t there)
– during the dorm party (where Dina and Becky first interacted) she was part of the group who made a comment about how young/underage Dina acts
– most recently she said Dina was like a “robot”
You also have the fact that Becky probably still has romantic feelings towards Joyce
I like Joyce. I think she’s doing her standard innocently insensitive schtick here. That said, I have cerebral palsy, also a spectrum disorder. If Joyce called me a cripple or a retard, even in innocent ignorance, then after that got hit by a semi and ended up paralyzed from the waist down and went, “Hey, samesies?” I would be, like Dina, a bit annoyed.
It’s understandable, but it’s also a textbook case of not seeing the hidden struggles.
Joyce doesn’t only talk a lot and eat chicken fingers. She has crippling anxiety about numerous things. She has plenty of awkwardness in social situations, but just masks it. She gets hyperfixated on things maybe even more than Dina.
It’s not a contest, of course. But Dina is making the assumption that everything has been peachy keen wonderful for Joyce.
Do you think Dina is being a shit? I think she’s being reasonable with a really difficult topic. Dina feels jealous and complicated, and she doesn’t really want to teach Joyce about Autism. That should be OK.
The implication that Joyce has been playing autism on Easy Mode ™ is a little uncool. It’s completely understandable given everything that’s happened between the two, and a very minor offense in the grand scheme of things, but a little uncool all the same. That said, actually declining the request is completely fair. No one is obligated to have emotionally difficult conversations, and especially not with people they aren’t close to.
Dina isn’t close to Joyce and doesn’t see how severely her sensory issues affect her eating, how Dorothy, Sarah and Becky all treat her as a child, or how being autistic certainly affected her upbringing (which is certainly why Joyce smiles all the time, because women aren’t allowed negative emotions).
She just sees that Joyce eats chicken fingers and smiles all the time. And that, unlike her, Joyce was able to fit in and build a strong network of friends whereas Dina still feels very much an outcast.
I would argue it’s more than a little uncool. It’s lateral ableism and literally the sort of thing that contributes to abled bias against people with invisible or not readily obvious disabilities. Dina is ironically doing the very same thing to Joyce that has been done to her in the past: assuming things about her struggles and downplaying/dismissing them based on her own biases about who Joyce is and what her life has been like.
That said I agree with everything else. Dina is not obligated to engage Joyce socially if she doesn’t want to. Setting boundaries with someone you don’t like, who has been offensive to you in the past, is completely reasonable.
But it just disturbs me how many people here are agreeing with the idea that Joyce has been doing autism on “easy mode” as you put it here and/or kind of implying that she hasn’t really struggled or that her struggles are somehow less valid than Dina’s.
I completely understand Dina’s resentment. It’s a natural response, and I’ve been in both sides of it: seeing someone who seems to be struggling less get support and acknowledgement you never did really sucks, but at the same time it’s not that person’s fault, and it’s not fair to make those assumptions, as I’ve ALSO been the person told my experiences/complaints are invalid because someone else perceived their struggles as having been worse because they are more obvious and visible and they think being good at “hiding” or “passing” for normal must mean it doesn’t affect me significantly or cause any trauma (which is very very wrong).
I think another aspect is also that Joyce was completely unaware some of her behavior and struggles could be because of possible autism (because so many people in comments seem to forget she wasn’t actually diagnosed, a gynecologist with an autistic daughter suspected it, that’s hardly someone qualified to diagnose, though certainly to bring up the possibility)
But Joyce tries to reconcile all her behavior with what’s “normal” and lived under the assumption how her life and childhood was just “how it’s supposed to be.” She’s been having to confront with very much very fast how fucked up things were and now there’s a possibility that there was an underlying condition that might have been a factor in that.
I was initially diagnosed with ADHD at 19 in my first appointment with a (male) psychologist so I’ll admit, I never really related to the experience that women have more difficulty being diagnosed. Even so, it was my decision to treat my anxiety and depression over the ADHD because I didn’t think it factored heavily in my life (because info wasn’t as available back then as it was now, so I really thought it was a minor inconvenience kind of thing). The depression turned out to be bipolar, so the worry that a stimulant would essentially turn my depression to bipolar was kind of moot.
I was still 27 when I decided to ask my doctor about starting on adderall because I’d been reading more and realized that literally *every major issue* I had affecting my life aligned with ADHD. I thought there was just something *wrong* with me and I was actually fully capable of doing things and there was no reason I was just not able to. I didn’t know they were all connected until I researched and started medicating and focusing therapy on managing the ADHD instead of the individual behaviors in isolation from each other.
So the fact that Joyce hasn’t had more than what, 2 days? to even learn enough about how being autistic could have affected her behavior or why some things are more difficult or why she has to force herself through things or that any of those things could be connected makes it pretty easy to write her off, and possibly with her agreeing, as having been Easy Mode Autistic based on superficial aspects and not what she’s had to struggle with to both fit the expectations of her religious community and family, but also under the assumption she’s neurotypical.
Yes she is. She being petty and bigoted because she feels Joyce had life too easy because her issues are not exactly the same. It’s understandable and she has every right to be pissed about how her race and her appearance led to her issues being dismissed but she’s being as ass still because of it. It reads poorly even if she isn’t incorrect.
No, Dina does not owe Joyce. That’s a really shitty and manipulative way to look at things. “You did something mean to me so now you have to do what I want, even if it makes you uncomfortable, to make up for it.”
No one ever “owes” someone else a conversation if they feel uncomfortable with it. Dina is not wrong to set a boundary. EVEN if she violated a boundary for Joyce earlier. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
That said I strongly disagree that Joyce is “asking dina to do emotional labor.” Joyce’s question is not unreasonable. Dina saying no is not unreasonable, even if I feel her dismissal of Joyce’s experience is problematic. Both these things can be true.
She asked if they could have “a conversation” about their potential “shared” autism, which was and is transparently a request for advice/support/coping mechanisms, and is clearly a subject Dina has personally struggled with extremely and has been wounded on in the past.
Like, if that’s not asking Dina to do emotional labor, I don’t know what you’d call it?
Yeah, Dina turned her down immediately (as is her right) and it’s not like Joyce is a criminal, it’s just a bad look (at least from Dina’s perspective) and a bad idea.
I would call if “asking if they could talk about a subject they’d recently mutually realized they might have in common, and that Dina had very, very much showed an interest in talking about with Joyce, even though Joyce didn’t actually bring it up with Dina”.
It’s fine that Dina shut it down, agreed. I vehemently disagree with the characterization that asking was an overstep on Joyce’s part, or that she was asking Dina to perform emotional labor for her by asking if Dina wanted to, essentially, keep up a conversation that DINA STARTED.
Dina didn’t actually want a conversation. She just wanted to gripe about how much easier it was for Joyce to get a diagnosis (not that she actually has a diagnosis yet or anything, and if it was so fucking easy why didn’t it happen until she was eighteen? at this point all that’s actually happened for Joyce is one (1) non-peer adult has said she might have it. A number which is half what it was for Dina at a younger age.)
Ok I’ve never heard of this but this explains SO much to me. I’m probably more of an asker but also I am often too afraid to ask BECAUSE of getting negative responses from people. But I honestly very much prefer to ask things. For information, for help, for favors, for things. I struggle with finding the line between a good ask and a bad ask. Sometimes when I finally ask the other party is so relieved I finally did and are more than happy to accommodate me and it’s such a bizarre feeling.
Note that as that article states there are things to like – but there are also some rabbit-holes.
As someone who’s AS myself, I know very well that ecstatic feeling when you find a new resource that Explains How Things Work – I just wanted to wave a gentle ‘caution’ flag based on finding that same site for myself in past history.
To be very clear, that not to say it’s not being offered in good faith, nor that I suspect any motives other than wanting to help, it’s just that I’dve wanted to have known some of this, way back when…
That need to be honest gets me in trouble sometimes – let’s see if I’m taken as intended here?
@eh, whatever
It was more of a general caution – and of course I’d say ‘take what’s useful, discard what’s not, check the implicit assumptions – and the sources’ (or something like that, I’m tired) about anything. Because that’s me. 🙂
Sincere thanks for the link, that’s actively useful. I loved that it mentioned autism as I know autistic folks that swing strongly in both extremes in that model. (Which of those is me, I leave as an exercise to the reader. 😉)
On this specific case, I think it’s one of those ‘useful way of looking at things, as a general idea’ like lots of things are, but again, pretty much every model we make is an incomplete ‘map of the actual territory’ – and that is no criticism either! Wisdom is knowing the limits of the map. 🙂
But now I wander all over the place. Really shouldn’t post while running a temperature. Thanks for engaging!
For some reason can’t reply lower down the chain, but thanks for your addition! I haven’t read much, and the small amount I have read has seemed good on Less Wrong but this is really useful context for deciding how much to delve further on it
I actually really like how the “asking” paradigm frames this strip’s exchange. Joyce made a request of Dina, Dina, in so many words, said no. Neither has does anything wrong. Everyone can chill.
I dunno? Ask some questions, gain some understanding. Dina owes joyce Nothing, absolutely. But A request for a conversation is a request for a conversation. I know nothing, you know something. Rather than walking blindly through life it’d be nice to talk to someone who knows. Instead she got blasted in the face with “Your problems are insignificant in comparison to mine. Whatever you’re going through doesn’t matter because your experience has been less dehumanizing than mine, go away.”
This isn’t about Dina not having the spoons or emotional werewithal to help Joyce. She’s pulling rank and that rubs me the wrong way. A simple no would’ve sufficed. Hell I’d have preferred a “Fuck You” to that.
I think it speaks to Dina’s character, though. She’s clearly resentful of Joyce for how much easier it’s been for her to get diagnosed when she’s much less “obviously” autistic than Dina is. It’s shitty of her, but it’s narratively interesting.
That tends to be my perspective most of the time. I do make moral judgments of the characters, but that’s not the end-all be-all for me. Otherwise I would have already ragequit the comic based on how much Jennifer sucks. Instead, she’s one of my favorite characters because she sucks so much
I totally understand Dina’s response, it’s something that’s really traumatic for her, so she took the most effective long-term social route — delivering a concise panegyric of her experiences with it and making it clear that she REALLY doesn’t want to talk something this sensitive with just anyone, especially not with someone she could barely call a friend.
At the very least Joyce has now (hopefully) learned that neurodivergence can be something that’s really sensitive for some people, a lesson that will be of very much use to her.
If it were me I’d just learn never to talk about my problems with anyone cuz they’ll just rub it in my face. Thanks for telling me my problems don’t matter in your effort to shield yourself from this sensitive topic. So glad you chose to remind me that even my being neurodivergent has to come with an asterisk. I’d have rather she said “I don’t like you and don’t wanna talk to you about this” than what she said.
While this is definitely the sort of comment that can be extremely self-loathing-inducing for some people, I don’t know that Joyce has the background to be taking it that way.
Also, if it helps, your pain is real and your experiences are real regardless of what did or did not happen to other people.
Sorry if what I said come off as condescending, didn’t really mean it that way.
I guess what I’m trying to get at is, Dina’s reaction is not only inspired by her pre-existing baggage with Joyce, but also by fear of being vulnerable.
For Dina, talking about Autism and her relevant experiences with it is like stepping into an emotional minefield. Joyce smiling the whole time and then doubling down on her intention instead of showing she was listening wasn’t exactly the most sensitive, but she’ll get better eventually.
Respectfully, it is very normal for people with disabilities to turn to people with the same disabilities for support. You keep saying that is demanding emotional labor of others in a way that suggests Joyce is asking for education on a topic she has no experience with. It is not REMOTELY the same thing and REALLY comes off as implying Joyce’s autism is somehow less valid or real than Dina’s because her history with it has been different. Because you seem to ascribe a different right to boundaries about this topic to dina than to joyce.
Let me ask you this, why is it okay for DINA to talk to Joyce about autism unpromoted (she literally popped into a convo she was not a part of when autism was brought up) but NOT okay for Joyce to merely ask Dina if they can talk about it further? I’m hoping this is just personal favorite character bias, rather than a deeper issue of dismissing the experiences of people who are less visibly disabled as less valid.
This is not Dina saying “no.” This is Dina saying “FIRST of all.” She’s taking exception to how the request was framed, not refusing to participate. It’s a friendly conversation on a difficult and nuanced topic within a difficult and nuanced friendship.
She is seeking support from the literally only person she knows who has some personal familiarity with the condition she was just told she has. Dina is not obligated to provide that support, but saying she’s demanding emotional labor of Dina is a bit much. Joyce is not an abled person demanding Dina educate her about something with which she has no experience.
It is VERY NORMAL AND COMMON and not unreasonable to try to connect with someone who has the same condition as you when you just found out you had it. Like I said, obviously Dina is totally within her rights to say no, as she did, but acting like Joyce is out of bounds for even ASKING is really unfair. If Joyce continues pushing after Dina said no, that’s another thing, but geez, people need to recognize the difference between violating boundaries and normal human interaction.
And I’m saying all of this as a multiply disabled person, who has both really appreciated and relied on the support of other people with my condition, especially early after my diagnosis, AND provided that same support for others who are newly diagnosed. Community support is something most people with these kinds of struggles needs or at least can benefit from. It’s unfortunate that so far the only person Joyce knows within that community is someone who she generally doesn’t get along with, but I can’t blame her for trying to reach out, as much as I can’t blame Dina for not reciprocating.
This is such a loaded comment – this is really not a healthy mindset to have. You CAN just talk to people about difficult topics. They CAN also say NO, if they don’t want to or can’t or don’t like you.
But asking people to talk about something emotionally difficult is not an affront. It’s not mean, rude or insensitive in itself.
Lol. “Hey, you are a friendly acquaintance, I was wondering if we could have a chat about a topic that is relevant to both of us, that you have more experience in” is not asking someone to perform emotional labor for you. It is basic human connection and conversation.
If Dina wants to say no, that’s fine, but Joyce isn’t a monster for politely asking to chat. (And, to reiterate, Dina is making the assumption that Joyce has been playing autism on “easy mode,” which is both dismissive and ignorant of the myriad of issues Joyce has to deal with)
Jesus wept, y’all. Uh. Okay. Let me go on record as eating some crow here: I have either used the idea of emotional labor incorrectly, or it’s being read as a moral condemnation of Joyce, which I have to stress, it is not. I like Joyce.
I also think that Dina is not her friend, has no motivation to be her friend, and does not owe her anything but civility. Which is fine! It’s okay not to be friends with someone! Dina is allowed to dislike her!
And I’m not saying Joyce is a secular sinner of some kind for putting this olive branch Dina’s way, but Dina’s not the bongoiest bongo in all the land for refusing and I think it’s very understandable why she did, because trying to be Joyce’s autism guide would be unpleasant nonsense she has no reason to do (they aren’t friends) and would get no reward from.
I’m sorry if I left the impression I thought Joyce was a monster, I don’t, mea culpa.
For me, it’s less about what you think about the characters and more about the term “emotional labour” being misused, imo. Which happens a lot, and it can get frustrating to see.
Despite that, conversations can be very emotionally taxing to some people, and I agree with you that Dina doesn’t owe Joyce one, and her reasona are understandable.
Talking to people is too much trouble. You should just internalize all your feelings and psychoanalyze yourself so nobody feels the need to pull rank on you. Or just hire a medical professional who will take your money because your only value as a human being is your finances. Every vulnerability is just another chance for someone to make you feel bad.
See, you joke, but I’m pretty sure most of the healthcare “professionals” in this neck o’ the woods would rather comment on webcomics and draw cute girls making out than do their jobs.
Children and adults alike, making hurtful assumptions about us, relentlessly tarnishing our dignity, holding us back, dehumanizing and tormenting us left and right…
“Oh you with your nut-job religious family who never let you hear the word autism, trained you to perform happiness and obedience, and never let you have an independent thought, you are so blessed.”
Dina with her supportive parents who LET her go to school and backed her up when she was bullied (as apposed Joyce’s parents trapping her in their tiny world and doing the bullying themselves.) Ugh!
What happened to Joyce had nothing to do with autism. What happened to Dina did – and Joyce was the one who called her a robot so, you know, she’s continued the bullying Dina experienced. Reasonable for Dina to not want to talk with her.
What happened to Joyce had nothing to do with autism.
Because her parents are fundiegelicals? This is like saying that what happened to Dina had to do with racism, and therefore had nothing to do with autism.
The intersection of being neurodivergent and having authoritarian parents is a shit place to be.
dina has been bullied her whole life and denied support from systems supposedly existing to help her, leaving her without resources in a world that seemed to reject her entirely because of her autism and race.
Joyce was one of the people rejecting her, but with a smile on her face the whole time. her issues aren’t coming from the same place as dina’s at all, and before college it seems like joyce’s autism was
largely accepted as quirks.
dina also didn’t tell her she’s blessed and never had issues,she said they don’t have the same problems, which is true. dina also owes joyce nothing just because they happen to know each other.
so yes, this was the nicest one could expect her to be here.
I don’t think Dina is suggesting that Joyce’s life is better than her life. Dina is only pointing out that their experience with Autism is vastly different.
Dina can’t get through a conversation without the other person seeing that she’s very different — and people are often extremely mean about it — while Joyce has passing privilege in the neurotypical world. Dina has been trying her while lifetime to get help, to no avail, while Joyce had a resource fall into her lap without even trying, and was upset about it. Etc.
I have no doubt that Dina would choose her own life over Joyce’s life every time! but for Autism specifically, it’s OK to point out that they’ve had a really different go of it, and it’s also OK to not feel like teaching someone in your spare time.
I think the key line here is “We are not the same.” I know it’s a meme and all, but their experiences really have been wildly different, and I can’t remotely fault Dina for not wanting to sit in a hippie drum circle with Joyce and unravel each other’s knots.
OTOH, until a couple of months ago in-universe Joyce was happy, had never perceived herself to have been bullied, and was completely unaware of the negative things you list. Dina, supportive parents notwithstanding, apparently did knowingly suffer these negatives – some of which we’ve seen in-story, and some of which were actually at the hands of Joyce. So yes, from Dina’s point of view, they haven’t had the same experiences – Joyce’s were far better, and there isn’t a lot that Dina really shares with her.
Yeah, Dina’s acting out because of how Joyce treated her as well as Becky. As well as going off the information she heard Joyce talk about the other day. AND she’s misreading WHY Joyce smiles “too much”. Unfortunately and ironically, this is less her being rational/irrational and more her autism working overtime to try to understand Joyce’s behavior.
THAT BEING SAID, she is more than aware of the damage done to Becky’s educational and emotional growth, so it’s not like she doesn’t have a basis for Joyce’s situation.
Yup. As far as dina understands it a smile is a way for a person to communicate “i’m happy”. Joice is telling her “i am happy about the current situation”. It’s a very bad misreading but also completely understandable as she doesn’t have an innate understanding of expressions the way neurotypicals do. I’m loving the hell put of this.
I actually suspect Joyce might be like me and a nervous smiler (yay Fawn response from trauma! */s*)
Which is nice to see an example of the kinds of misunderstandings *that* can cause.
(Try being a nervous smiler as an autistic 8YO with a pissed off abusive adult. “DO YOU THINK THIS IS FUNNY?!” is a shouted line that gets me to flinch over 20 years later.)
How on Earth is this shit nicer than just politely saying “I’d prefer not to discuss this with you”? No, Dina went for the throat here, and in the process probably ushered Joyce into the “Maybe I’m not valid” phase of neurodivergence early
First of all, no it isn’t, I totally understand why Dina lashed out at Joyce here and it’s not a huge deal, but also no it’s not cool to invalidate people’s neurodivergence actually.
Didn’t you just go off about how literally asking a question of someone with the same condition as you is demanding emotional labor? Literally no one is saying it’s a “war crime” for dina to be grouchy with Joyce, in fact MOST PEOPLE I’m seeing who are taking issue with Dina here are saying they AGREE she is allowed to set boundaries, and are mainly taking issue with the fact that she is dismissing Joyce’s experiences while setting those boundaries.
Be reasonable. If she’d said “I prefer not to discuss this with you” then Joyce would’ve pushed and pushed and pushed until she had to spell it out for her anyway.
Serious answer: The commenter didn’t say there weren’t any more effective ways to shut down Joyce, they said there weren’t any “nicer” ways, which is objectively not true. Even taking that into account there is in fact a middle ground between a polite “no” and “actually you’re not a Real Autistic™”
Silly answer: Dina could just keep saying “I’d prefer not to discuss this with you” over and over until Joyce gives up
As an autistic person, I can tell you that the nicest way to talk to me is to be clear and direct. It’s also nicest if you expect me to talk to you that way.
Okay then she could say “I don’t feel comfortable talking to you about this because of the past conflict between us/because I am frustrated I have not been able to get the same level of support.”
See how both of those offer more in-depth explanation WITHOUT invalidating Joyce’s experiences?
Making assumptions about someone’s personal struggles and implying they’ve had it easier in a way that dismisses the validity of their experience isn’t what I’d call “the nicest way.” It’s some pretty clear lateral ableism, and while Dina’s frustration is completely justified, she’s directing it at someone who is not the cause of her lack of support/treatment/validation, and literally doing the same thing to Joyce as multiple people have done to her over the years, by invalidating her experiences.
The actually nicest way would be just saying “I don’t feel comfortable talking to you about this because of the past conflict between us/because I am frustrated I have not been able to get the same level of support.” Or even just saying, “no I’m not comfortable with that right now,” no further explanation needed. Multiple ways to have set a very valid boundary without implying Joyce has had it easy so they must not have anything in common.
Writing-wise I have zero issue with this response because it’s a very realistic and human way to respond. And also she is a fictional character. But I take issue with the number of real people agreeing with her frankly fairly laterally ableist take. It’s an awesome reminder of how quick people are to invalidate other people’s experiences if they “look” fine and look like they haven’t been struggling to the outside observer.
No problem! I’m glad it was helpful. Like many things this comic deals with, it’s probably not necessarily something that would jump out at folks unless they’ve had a lot of direct personal experience with it.
I know that realistically there are times where people just never end up friends but I want these two to find a way to friendship eventually. Especially considering Dina is dating Joyce’s best friend…not getting along with your partner’s best friend inevitably makes that situation awkward and tends to be a frequent ongoing source of tension.
But they likely both require a lot of character growth (especially Joyce who is just in the early stages of a lot of really important growth) to get to that point.
I think Sirksome is talking about Becky’s dream of being next-door neighbors with Joyce when they’re both adults and out of college.
Which, in hindsight, was just her way of having a cover while she continues an extramarital relationship with the woman she’s actually in love with. Assuming that Joyce was also gay, of course.
To be fair, Joyce was also denied resources (by her abusive cult parents) and is constantly being infantilized by the people around her. Sure, people haven’t told her to her face that she’s a child, like they have with Dina – but at least they let Dina make her own medical decisions and are *honest* with her about the fact that they don’t respect her.
Yeah, there’s definitely been some repeated infantilization of Joyce by the people around her – even outside of the immediate cult parents. In no small part because of her eating habits, including by her peers here at school.
But I do totally get Dina’s pushback here, because some of that infantilization and dehumanizing was stuff that Joyce said, too. Even people Dina’s generally friends with like Amber have gotten in on it in the past, and Dina and Joyce have had a lot of reasons not to get along. I think at some point when this particular hurt is less raw, they might be able to find some common ground – Joyce explaining how she’s lost her faith because of how she internalized Everything Must Literally Be True and how much ENERGY she spent reconciling that, and how hard it’s been to unpack all the garbage, might make Dina better inclined to her on some fronts (especially if Joyce maybe asks for some help with SCIENCE, where she would be coming to the light at last. As a bonus, paleontology has trained Dina quite a bit in coping with the idea that sometimes you will learn things that conflict with your previous idea of a situation, and those facts will have always been the case but you didn’t have access to them and now you have to change your hypothesis because Spinosaurus had a big paddle-like tail – I think that’s a skill Joyce in particular would benefit from putting points into.) And that’s also a point where I could see Dina maybe at some point recognizing the rigidity and ability to infodump – in a totally different form – and seeing where someone might be getting at the autism idea.
But, she already isn’t fond of Joyce, and this sudden encounter’s brought up years of trauma on Dina’s end and the unfortunate reality of racism (and sexism, but that’s equalized here) in diagnosis of neurodivergence. So I wouldn’t expect that any time soon.
Was just about to say this, Dina is girlfriend’s with Becky, she mostly tends to avoid Joyce unless it has something to do with Becky because Dina knows that Joyce knows Becky
Dina is jealous of Joyce … and Dina was sitting on top of Joyce while she suffered intense pain when Joyce was rude to her. Dina is lucky Joyce didn’t throw her off the bunk bed or punch her.
Yeah, it’s genuinely uncomfortable that this kind of violent bullshit keeps showing up in the comments whenever the topic of autism comes up. And then the visibly and openly autistic people (hi, we’re fucking people, btw) get told we’re making the comments “worse to read” for putting a goddamn emoji or cuss word in our (unrelated) replies.
I’m autistic and if I woke up to anyone who wasn’t dating me straddling my fucking body in the dark I would probably deck that person literally just out of pure reflexes before I even realized what I was doing. That said, it would be going too far to hit her after already knowing this wasn’t some kind of abrupt, mid-sleep sexual assault, regardless of gruesome period pain or other factors.
Like, I get the reflexes thing, but that’s never been a factor here. It always get taken to this faux-badass “I’d simply hit them as a first resort” shit that’s… Well, it’s worthless. There’s no value and nothing to be gained by saying “I’d beat up a person in this hypothetical scenario that I made up to sound tougher”. Like, who fucking cares? Nobody’s around to get hit, you’re just signalling to everyone around you that you’re a violent dickhead with a hair-trigger temper just waiting for an excuse.
I’d say she was lucky not to get REFLEXIVELY punched by a person who could easily have panicked after someone they aren’t even dating woke them by straddling their body in the dark, but I definitely agree that choosing to punch Dina after having understood the situation would still not have been okay regardless of the other mentioned circumstances.
I’ve got no horse in the metagame of Dina Straddling Joyce. I was just reacting to the excessive response that seems to relish in the idea of hitting someone at the first available opportunity.
So, Dina had one instance of ignoring someone’s boundaries, being oblivious to how they were feeling, and only correcting herself after she had to be explicitly told to stop… All things that Joyce herself has done multiple times throughout the comic.
Calling Dina a “robot girl” because of her behavior is hurtful and no way to treat a friend.
Calling her a robot girl because she could some stand perfectly still for an entire day and ate nothing but cereal for six months without ever developing scurvy is just stupid. Never let the Terminators know you are on to them.
I’m shocked, shocked, by the predictable development that Dina doesn’t want to be friends with Joyce after a long history of Dina openly disliking Joyce. Who could have seen that one coming
I think the Dina-Joyce non-friendship is well-established with Joyce having taken the lead in being the bigger condescending asshole, and Dina really keeping it going by having minus zero interest in Joyce as a human being even while she treats Joyce like a reference book on Becky and Joyce and Becky’s Fundamentalist Childhood that can be consulted at will with no regards to Joyce’s own comfort or convenience. Joyce used to be a jerk towards Dina, and Dina now refuses to change her perception of Joyce even though Joyce has gone through some pretty radical personal change over the last few months, and is much more inclined to be interested in who Dina really is and approach her as such.
…when I say it like that it kinda sounds like Pride and Prejudice.
That’s a fair cop. No, I don’t think Joyce has been terribly interested in who Dina is in her own right, either.
The only comment I have there is that Joyce has genuinely tried to be welcoming of Dina’s presence in Becky’s life, despite Dina ostensibly representing everything her upbringing taught her was evil. Dina is pretty open in her disinterest/dislike of Joyce, and only ever approaches Joyce when she needs a Becky-related favor (which Joyce always grants). It’s…an uneven relationship.
I think one thing that kind of skews this audience’s perception of these characters is the extremely decompressed timescale the comic takes place on. Remember, in-universe, it’s been like a week since the timeskip. The characters still processing and recovering and reckoning with the fallout from shit that, to us, happened months if not years ago. People are talking about how Dina doesn’t seem to have fully registered that Joyce isn’t Christian anymore, but of course she hasn’t; that reveal happened 4 days ago in-universe, and I’m not actually sure that anyone told Dina. I think it’s fair to say that in real life, people often change faster than we can adjust our perception of them.
Nah dina has liked joice well enough through most of college, the only point of conflict being joice’s old anti-evolution stick. Well she did. Until the robot comment.
Dina is not confused about sexual desire. She accepts that she generally does not get horny, outside of certain situations she hasn’t pinpointed the cause of. That’s not being confused.
Dina does know Joyce was homeschooled right? By conservative fundamentalists. Repeating the third grade isn’t exactly the same but I feel like there are some similarities in the failure of both their formative educations. This is a rare miss for Dina. She’s being kind of an ass on that one.
She’s definitely a little biased against Joyce, but at the same time, I don’t blame Dina for not being impartial about this. Joyce hasn’t exactly been the nicest to Dina.
Neither of them has been nice to eachother. Dina sniped at her and attacked things that didn’t affect her (dina) and then used her as a reference book for Becky and their upbringing + talked down to her about it after being told to physically get off her.
Joyce has made social errors and generally been ignorant of large parts of why things aren’t okay and generally has had a handful of asshole-moments (namely calling her robot girl, not knowing at all how it would affect her.)
The biggest thing is Joyce doesn’t come at Dina intending to hurt her or change her. Dina has before on multiple occasions wanted to change joyce or treated her fairly poorly. (hissing/batting at her like she would infect becky when they were *both* raised fundamentalist.)
Dina’s experience has been hard and I don’t blame her for not wanting to discuss this with Joyce. But pulling “Your neurodivergency isn’t immediately apparent to me and I’m going to condescend about how your problems aren’t as bad as mine”
Idk. Dina’s cute and had a tragic story in the other walkyverse timelines. But on my current re-read she feels a lot less… likeable than I thought on my first readthrough? We don’t see much of her admittedly. She’s sprinkled around, but it’s mostly through sympathy/empathy that we bond with her (like when Raidah and co bullied her.) or think she’s cool (redirecting toedad)
But overall I feel like stuff that on the first readthrough felt endearing now feels grating. (like her whole constant atheistic comments.) And the fact that they continue well into her dating Becky, and when she speaks about Becky’s beliefs, it seems like she’s pitying her for having religion, like she subtly… looks down on religious people? which feels odd to me.
(then again in walkyverse she did kind of get fridged after her romantic tragedy, so I guess we missed out on quite a bit of development.)
TL;DR: Dina and Joyce have said mean shit to each other before, Dina’s comment here was still uncalled for based on the origins of each character’s jerkiness over the course of the comic.
I think she probably is aware. I don’t think she cares. Dina definitely does not consider Joyce a friend. She mostly considers her an annoying appendage to Becky. Sometimes, she treats her like a knowledge-pump for useful facts about Becky! Like “literally sit on top of her” to get those useful insights out.
And at no point in her life was it assumed that Joyce was “lazy” or “inattentive” or “not applying herself” or that she had difficulties related to factors that would turn out to be outside of her control, they are in fact not the same.
Joyce’s trauma responses 100% include “fawn” (as do Becky’s, but for her it’s the primary one whereas Joyce also has a strong “fight” instinct that the abuse has not entirely suppressed.)
I want to thumbs-up this because everyone forgets about “freeze” and “fawn”, but I’ve seen and done those two in real life MUCH more than outright “flight” or “fight.”
I remember learning in grade 4 that if I smiled a lot people (especially adults) would like me and put up with me (like letting me sit with the teachers to avoid bullies). I also had the blue-eyed-blonde type white privilege in my favour. It helped to appease adults like teachers and basically compensate for general social defecits.
On the flip-side it contributed to me not getting the support I needed to manage everything I really struggled with because I could “get away” with outbursts (because I was “sensitive”), and I burned out everyday and ended up melting down as soon as I got home. Plus it didn’t protect me from being bullied all through school by other students.
So not exactly all Dina maybe thinks. But I might also be a little more Dina-leaning spectrum-wise, just with Joyce’s white privilege and the specific strategies open to cute little white goyls…
Joyce. Honey. I know you mean well. I accept that maybe you would like Dina to be your friend. But that’s not going to happen. She doesn’t like you. Get the heck out of her grill.
…she was following some advice given to her by her roommate? Sarah? About maybe talking to someone who self-identifies as autistic and very much jumped up into Joyce’s business the fucking second the word came up, with regards to Joyce?
No, I don’t think Dina wants to be Joyce’s friend, and I don’t think she should feel like she ought to be; they don’t have a great history and Dina holds Joyce in great contempt. But Joyce isn’t being an overstepping asshole just by *approaching* Dina to ask if she’s open to comparing notes.
Joyce is trying desperately to find someone to talk to about something she has been told is bad and quite possibly evil. For her entire life. Dina has autism.
Dina having autism doesn’t obligate her to be Joyce’s personal spokesperson on the topic. The math doesn’t end at “Need to talk + Dina’s autistic”, we have to include the characters’ actual dynamic.
@Needfuldoer, because Dina didn’t reject the offer in a “nice” way. At least that’s what I’m seeing in the comments section. And Dina pushed passed Joyce’s boundary that one time so that means Dina has to help her. (Which that is another comment I saw).
Quite a few people take this comic and these characters close to heart. Any slight on the “well liked” character, justified or not, is a slight on them as a person. This isn’t talking about minor characters or the characters that are tagged as the objectively evil one.
Another thing I’ve noticed that when it comes to “well liked” characters, some people will wave off issues or make excuses for said characters. But another character steps out of line against their “well liked” character and they’ll go days/months/years with receipts. Grace for their character but not for the other.
It’s funny, confusing, frustrating at times. Even when there’s instances of a panel being a joke, the comments section makes a federal case out of certain characters.
Friends- well- acquaintances and strangers- yes, we do know that Dina’s parents are good people. We have also had barely a taste of how nearly every other person treats her and it’s not great.
Also, like, Joyce wasn’t in a cult because she was autistic, those are different and unrelated things.
I’m reminded of Redcloak assuming Durkon wouldn’t know anything about his upbringing because “dwarves live underground surrounded by gems” and he just musters an “uh-huh” rather than press the issue further.
Yes. Joyce could have added a whole day’s worth of explanation how she was abused and brainwashed growing up. How she was denied a quality education, how she would have loved to be allowed to go to third grade, how she was forced to learn these exact coping mechanisms Dina makes fun of like performing obedience and happiness.
You’re inventing a scenario of two extremes, and I don’t subscribe to it. I don’t have the patience or vocabulary to write out a paragraph explaining the nuanced version of my previous comment, just know that I agree with what you said rules-as-written and in a strictly literal sense.
Although I will point out that Republicans exist in basically only the two states you’ve described, and they’re all over the place getting everything they ever wanted, so the data is skewed.
Growing up, Joyce didn’t think she was abused, didn’t think she was brainwashed, didn’t think she was denied a quality education, didn’t think she was forced into anything. Until a couple of months ago in-universe she was all in for all of it, and actually told everyone how wonderful it was. You are looking at it from outside, not from Joyce’s perspective. Joyce thinks differently now, but this is new to her and not the life she experienced for 18 years.
Observations are the same thing as mockery and condemnation, unless you follow them with at least 300 words explaining every possible intricacy, exception, and fringe case to what you’re observing.
You know, on the one hand, it’s perfectly reasonable that Dina doesn’t want to be Joyce’s Autism Buddy(tm). They barely tolerate each other by virtue of a shared Becky, and a shared neurodivergence isn’t a strong foundation for friendship.
On the other hand, god I need to see Joyce have a positive and/or healthy relationship with someone in this comic who isn’t Joe. I love Joe/Joyce, I do! But damn, everyone’s either ignoring her Giant Trauma Flags or trying to Mom Friend their way through them when a mom is like, 30% of the trauma. Girl needs more people in her life whom she can have an honest and positive conversation with right now.
Joyce’s friend group is failing her something fierce right now. It might be part of why I reacted so strongly to Dina here. She’s not really wrong, but Joyce has already been invalidated so many times by her friends, so it stings to add another one to the pile
Yeah, it’s like, on the surface Dina’s being perfectly reasonable here and has very good reasons to say no to this, but also I’ve spent the past near-decade of my life with a front row seat to watching Joyce experience six straight months of pure trauma and having her entire life upended twelve different times and aaaaaaa someone plz acknowledge that this girl is going through it.
Hell, give her some time with Roz at this point. You can’t tell me she wouldn’t be hyped as shit for someone to come to her as an Authoritative Source of Knowledge and Resources. Hell, she hopped in with advice on birth control not twenty-four hours ago. She’d have a stack of references from self-advocacy networks printed out by day’s end.
I mean, Joyce has apparently been actively ignoring Jocelyn’s calls, so I wouldn’t get my hopes up on that.
As an aside, is anyone else worried that Jocelyne might not be doing okay? She’s invested a lot in being able to remain a part of her family, and now that family is splitting down the middle. She’s the one who always stayed out of arguments, avoided conflict, refused to take sides – and that’s probably impossible now, or at least a lot more emotionally draining. Don’t get me wrong, the entire Brown family is going through some shit right now, but I feel like she’s probably getting hit the hardest.
John’s probably on Team Carol. Jordan’s probably out of the loop or completely disinterested. Joyce is Team Hank. Jocelyne kept her head down and has been living a lie this whole time just to not burn any bridges.
It’s reasonable that Joyce would be wary of interacting with any of her siblings on anything important right now. (Especially for an important mental health issue that can and will be weaponized to invalidate her input.)
Nah, that’s honestly fair enough. Joyce ain’t wrong to try and reach out, but she honestly has a lot o’ learnin’ to do, and Dina’s certainly not the person to go to for that. She’s got her own stuff to deal with
Agreed. I’d like to see them find common ground at some point because I think they COULD get along and have valuable things to pick up from each other, but this is 1000% not that time.
(Joyce probably has a few more pointers on how to work with Becky’s specific traumas and the two of them could brainstorm some in Helping Becky Unpack More of The Ways Their Upbringing Fucked Them Up, since Joyce has been dealing with it way more as a PERVASIVE thing to Becky’s Primarily About Her Evil Dad one; Dina DEFINITELY can teach Joyce how to incorporate new ideas into your worldview and adjusting from one potentially-quite-strongly-held idea to another in the face of new evidence, which Joyce sorely needs.)
I’m too frustrated with Dina’s never-wrong characterization these days to comment much but Becky, Sarah, Dorothy, and literally Dina herself have all repeatedly infantilized Joyce for behaviors which are, in retrospect, probably autism symptoms. So on that note, fuck off, Dina.
I think in this case it’s supposed to be an active flaw on Dina’s part.
By which I mean I feel pretty confident actually that this is supposed to be an active flaw on Dina’s part consistent with their longtime mutual animosity and Dina’s noted experience with medical racism screwing her over, making her jealous Joyce found someone willing to listen right off the bat.
I really want it to be intentional, because Dina’s dislike of Joyce rendering a HUGE blind spot to the math of “Becky’s upbringing left her a with a lot of hangups and trauma that deserve consideration and understanding + Joyce had the exact same upbringing = Joyce may have similar hangups and traumas equally worthy of consideration (that also may have intersected with her autism to create Fun And Exciting(/s) New Trauma)” is an absolutely fascinating character flaw that could add some real depth to the characters of all three of them, especially is Dina stops and actually thinks on what Sarah said about Becky making fun of Joyce for traits that could get Joyce diagnosed. (Holy run-on sentence, Batman)
Also because it really feels like Dina’s spent the past several years being relegated to “Becky’s flawlessly understanding girlfriend who conveniently says and does all the right things to make Becky feel better” and it would be real neat to see her have a narrative role outside of that, not gonna lie.
TL;DR I deserve to see my fave dino girl misread a situation and downplay another person’s experiences and struggles due to her own established and addmitedly pretty warranted biases against that person, as a treat.
Characters should be interesting and it’s weird how many people don’t seem to feel that way. For some fans, characterization begins and ends with how morally correct the characters are
I mean, I’ll be the first to admit I have absolutely gotten a bit pissy about character flaws, but that’s mostly due to exposure. Webcomic time or not, when you see someone be the exact same kind of jackass every time they show up for months on end, the desire to pick it apart eventually gives way to “aaaaaugh just fix your shit already.”
This conflict, on the other hand, is entirely knew and exciting jackassery that builds off of established character dynamics and traits in interesting, understandable, and dissectable ways, and I am fed in this Chili’s tonight.
See, this is why I want Dina to be allowed to be wrong *in the narrative*. She has yet to be *framed* as being in the wrong in any meaningful way, unless you count the seemingly-abandoned “thinks she’s Becky’s rebound” plot thread, which I wish was still a thing.
I think Joyce needs to reassess her behavior towards Dina in the past, give her a genuine apology, and treat her with more respect in the future before Dina is going to go out of her way to try and understand Joyce.
I think that Joyce may actually need to be taught about genuine remorse and apologies, because her upbringing would definitely have emphasized pro forma apologies (say the magic words and the other person must say the magic words back and then the relationship is perfect again) over genuine remorse and improvement, because in that culture its always the children who have to change, not the adults.
I don’t see Dina’s behavior as perfect here, but it *is* very understandable. I get where she’s coming from on this and why – hell, I had a similar impulse when despite me struggling in a much more obvious way on the social and behavioral fronts in so many ways my younger sibling got an ADHD diagnosis before either of mine.
There was a big element of, “fucking seriously? She fails a few tests and it’s the end of the fucking world and I’VE been barely hanging on all through school and a total outcast but I just need to be less sensitive and try harder? Fuck. This.”
Like, Dina doesn’t know Joyce well at all. She doesn’t see how others infantilize Joyce or WHY Joyce feels obligated to always smile or how badly her food issues affect her. She lacks context into why and how Joyce is struggling. To Dina it looks like she lives the life of Riley on easymode in a homeschool environment (probably something that was Dina’s ideal school in her childhood fantasies – I know because I often fantasized about being homeschooled as a solution to all my problems as a horribly bullied middle schooler), a group of supportive friends who seem to accept her, and immediate diagnosis the moment she starts to struggle.
In that context – and given that I had the same sort of angry-jealous reaction to my sibling being diagnosed as Dina when I DID have context, I don’t at all blame Dina for her reaction. It’s very human even if it’s a bit harsh.
She’s consistently been written as being ‘in the right’ in terms of narrative voice. Relatively unflawed, so when she says this kind of thing, it feels very definitive. We haven’t seen anything to counter it.
Yeah. Joyce is one of the people who “repeatedly infantilized” Dina and called her a “robot”. Also introduced Dina by calling attention to things she was “not good at”.
…On a somewhat related note, is it odd that their biology professor appears to lack object permanence? I don’t believe he’s talking about the Uncertainty Principle, because that wouldn’t involve winking out of existence (at least, not for any appreciable length of time.)
I will cut her some slack on the eye contact one, not sure where or not Dina would but yeah, the other two definitely cross my mind here. Joyce did apologize for the infantilizing comment, but not for calling her “robot girl”, which, yeah, that one was really fucked up.
Honestly I don’t think Joyce meant it as a compliment, but I do think it 100% stems from Joyce viewing her as able to perfectly be obedient because she’s often quiet, and I imagine Joyce naively speaking up is what got her hit as a kid, hence why Becky was the wild child and Joyce comparatively didn’t get whacked a ton with the spoon.
tldr: it stemmed from her being annoyed that Dina had physically caused her more pain, and then on top of that attacked her upbringing which was already collapsing in on itself like a neutron star, telling her once again something was abnormal.
It was still fucked up, but in the moment I can understand her sniping at Dina without thinking.
Specifically seeing her as robotically perfect because that’s the only way she could have avoided being spanked as a kid. In Joyce’s mind, being spanked more, less, or not at all is all about the kid’s behavior, not the parent’s choice. Dina saying her parents never struck came across to Joyce as some weird boast.
Of course, if it had been Dorothy saying she was never spanked, the reaction would have been entirely different, so the prejudice is still hidden in there.
True. If it were Dorothy, it would have been a much less ambiguous, “Well, of course not. You’re perfect.”
…Which, considering how Joyce is (still?) majoring in education and wants so badly to have children, Joyce is probably going to have to learn some new strategies and ways of understanding children, eventually.
As someone to whom the term “robot” has been applied, it’s probably less about obedience and more about the general lack of displayed emotion. Perhaps also visible reliance on analysis and logic. Or maybe I’m projecting.
Normally it would be, I think, but in that particular interaction where it was in the context of Joyce’s understanding of parenting and spanking, obedience makes more sense. Not showing emotion doesn’t avoid spanking, in her mind. Obeying does.
This is funny to me because I think Dina dislikes Joyce because of how similar they are. It’s like a funhouse mirror of her traits reflected back at her. Both have near encyclopedic knowledge of rather specific subjects. Both are pretty judgemental of people who believe in ideologies that they don’t. (This happens to be each other by the way) They both often misunderstand or completely miss certain social cues that many consider common knowledge. They both also imitate other people’s behavior (like the time they both pretended to be Sal). They are also both surprisingly capable of instances of rage or violence. Dina says they’re not the same but it’s actually closer to the opposite. There’s a reason Becky is attracted to both of them.
Oooh, good catch breaking it down like that, especially in how their belief systems/special interests (former, in Joyce’s case, but Dina absolutely uses science and paleontology as the lens through which she copes with a world not suited to her, it’s absolutely a special interest that also functions as a belief system as opposed to a special interest that’s PURELY in the obsessive knowledge and bringing comfort sphere) are so deeply incompatible, but the underlying mechanisms are ultimately the same.
They are INCREDIBLY similar. But their respective topical fixations—Dina on paleontology, Joyce on the Bible—turned into a conflict .000000001 seconds after they met, and pretty much every interaction they’ve had since has made it worse.
Joyce mellowed out first because she’s Joyce and and she’s an extrovert and she’s highly social and inclined to try to be friendly even after a bad interaction. Dina’s carrying a mega-grudge because she’s not those things, and also because she’s dating a girl who’s been in love with Joyce for like fifteen years and Joyce is a threat to her relationship.
It is completely reasonable that they aren’t friends.
One bit that makes it fascinating is that Dina specifically picks out Joyce’s food preferences as something to dismiss her with. Um, are you sure that’s the one you want to point to, Ms. Eats-Only-Cereal?
My read of that is “I’ve suffered in so many ways because of my autism; your very privileged experience has been smiling too much and some discomfort about mixing foods.”
Agree. I think the biggest differences are around the intersection of race. White privilege is a hellova thing when it comes to how behaviours/ND traits are perceived and responded to.
Can someone explain to me where the idea that dina dislikes joice comes from cause i just don’t see it. Like yeah she dislikes the old anti-evolution thing joice’s been on but that’s an element. They have generally been getting on fine and they’ve both cared for each other even of they’re not the best friends in the group. Like yesh the robot comment clearly hurt dina to the point where this is no longer the case but people talk about them like they were always like this.
They have never liked eachother at all. Dina found Joyce idiotic and insulting because of her fundie beliefs and thought she was stupid to have them. Joyce thought Dina was creepy and wierd because of her behavior and also because of how insulting she was about her beliefs at first
They are always like this. Even before the timeskip. Joyce and Dina do not like each other and only hang out because their mutual love for Becky is the one and most important thing they can agree on. It’s just not a malicious and hateful relationship. It’s more like a causal disregard for the other often played up for comedy. Here’s a few examples I enjoy pre-timeskip of them just being jerks to each other and disagreeing on a fundamental level.
I think Joyce also disliked Dina for all those same reasons until *very* recently. Joyce was so dismissive and judgmental of her because Dina is/was the type of person Joyce was trying very hard not be.
Yeah! Reading these comments, I realized just how similar they really are. Dina has justified reasons to dislike Joyce aside from them being the same though (I would also feel angry if someone got a doctors attention before me thanks to racial bias, or called me robot girl. Had a similar experience with the word Special ed).
I tend to dislike those are similar to me, looking in a mirror is not what I wanna do. I do think they could maybe get along if they just talked- don’t think they’ll ever really be friends tho
True! If Dina is so non-interested in Joyce she shouldn’t have been eves-dropping in hopes of drama and she definitely shouldn’t have butted in to the autism conversation. Right now she is helping her girlfriend keep a secret from Joyce and apparently delighting in it. Making snide comments, hinting, sharing looks and rude comments in front of Joyce’s back. Just nasty.
Dina is also helping Joyce “keep a secret” from Becky if we’re accepting your apparent position that everyone owes everyone else the innermost details of their lives whether they want to share them or not.
I don’t know what your beef is with Dina, and she’s not a perfect person by any means, but wow yikes you can’t seem to stop being vicious about her. I’ll be flagging your violent comments and moving on at this point.
I think it was stated back during her and Sarah’s shared birthday that she was on the older end of the freshman scale, and older than most of the cast – she turned 19 in Mid-Octoberish. Not an unheard of age for freshmen by any means, but this revelation does contextualize that fact a bit. (I think Sarah, Rachel, Ruth, and Carla at the very least are all older than her, being at least sophomores.)
Potentially, but not necessarily if she began earlier. I remember when I was in kindergarten that some kids were 4-5 and some were 6, depending on if they went to pre-K or not. If she started earlier, than it’d even out, being held back.
US school districts do not all have a single cut-off date and age for entry. There literally is one year of difference between the school district with the latest cut-off date for admission to first grade (a minimum age of 6 years, 9 months) and the one with the earliest (a minimum age of 5 years, 9 months).
In addition, many districts allow children to arbitrarily start a year later or earlier than they otherwise would have, especially if their birthday falls close to the cut-off date.
And about 1/10 of all students in America repeat a year before entering high school.
And this is all before we get into the issue of some students possibly starting college a little later than “immediately after graduating high school” or graduating early due to taking loads and loads of classes above and beyond what’s required.
So, in conclusion: realistically speaking, your average freshman dorm will contain multitudes, and they were not all born within 365 days of each other.
This is probably more true for Big Name schools than state universities, but it’s true at all of them.
Dina and Sarah shared a birthday. I don’t think Dina’s age was directly stated, but no one said anything about Dina and Sarah being the same age, and Dina pointed out that she was “now a year older than [Joyce]”, so I think that means she’s 19 now, but started college at 18.
I know my school district put the cut-off date as September 1. A kid born in August would be the youngest in their class, but a kid born in September of the same year would be the oldest in the following class, even though they’re both “the same age”.
Autistic, and yeah, honestly, I get where Dina’s coming from. This is something the two have in common, but their experiences are greatly different, and Joyce very recently subjected Dina to the microaggression of calling her a “robot”, something Dina mentioned here, something Joyce has never apologized for. She’s also infantilized Dina multiple times, but at least that I think she has maybe said sorry for. It’s been a hot minute since Joyce’s party.
I do think the two can talk about this, but it isn’t going to be right now, and I do think that in addition to apologizing, Joyce should also consider not keeping this a secret from Becky if Dina’s going to take her feelings on it seriously. Dina’s not someone who really has the luxury of “masking” her autism, and that’s as big a part of this as anything else.
Dina has aggressed Joyce too, and sees no need to apologize because she was, ultimately, just being herself. The problem isn’t that the onus of apology falls on Joyce. The problem is that they don’t see eye to eye in general, despite that they have both tried for reason of being in the same friend group.
This is one pairing that is doomed to fail, because their backgrounds–not their personalities– are just too different.
I’m not sure if I would call Joyce’s masking a *luxury*, rather than a *survival trait that was forced upon her*.
Probably via both mental *and*, given the ‘spare the rod spoil the child’ attitude of a lot of fundie communities, at least some degree of physical abuse.
Yes, and to someone who lacks the option it looks like a luxury
Analogy time: Hi, I’m bi. Most of the biphobia in the queer community is rooted in the idea that bi people have “passing privilege” and therefore go through life on queer easymode. It’s not true, as the stats on MH in the bi community shows (for those who don’t want to look it up: bi people have worse outcomes on EVERY measure of mental health and wellbeing than gay or lesbian people. The only group in the queer community worse off from a mental health and wellness pov is trans people. Reason being, Ls and G’s can go to queer spaces and find acceptance. Bi people largely don’t have a space we can go for acceptance. L&G folks treat us as straight posers and the straights treat us as queer so we’re hated everywhere. But to L and G folks- we have the *option* to pass as straight, and that looks pretty sweet from where they sit), but perception and reality can differ greatly, especially to someone who doesn’t have the option of trying a particular poison pill.
Dina is wrong that passing is a luxury, but her resentment of Joyce is partly rooted in the idea she has this luxury Dina doesn’t.
Having to hide part of (or the entirety of) who you are every minute of every day until you no longer even know for sure which parts are you… is not a luxury.
It might confer some privilege, but that comes at the cost of quite a lot.
I do not disagree with that, and to tie it into queer topics, coming out of the closet is done for a reason, because the mask is a damaging thing, but it’s still like the X-Men and the Morlocks. They’re both mutants, but one side is able to go to the grocery store without people giving them shit for it, so to speak.
“I do not have the luxury of ___” is a figure of speech that shouldn’t be taken this literally, honestly. The conferred privilege is the luxury being spoken of here. Does that make my point any more clear? Sorry if that sounds rude, but I am getting the feeling you’re shadowboxing an opponent that isn’t actually there and that we agree on this.
“Here, put these 50lb weights on your wrists and ankles, and then also put on this raggedy backpack full of smaller weights we had laying around. Now, if any of those weights fall out, they’ve got a little sound chip in ’em that screams rude words, so people around you will probably get pretty upset with you about that. Oh, and don’t forget to put on this little earpiece that constantly whispers targeted insults at you, so you’ll be distracted. And don’t fucking complain even a little bit, because you’re lucky to have all this stuff.”
That’s basically what it sounds like to call masking a luxury.
On one hand Dina has a point and I sympathize with her situation which sounds similar to my situation growing up. I didn’t have to repeat a grade though my school tried to get me institutionalized (i had been bullied so bad that i said i wanted to kill myself it was 6th grade i was 11) I guess this is a service but the damn so called crisis team the school sent billed my parents instead of the school and our insurance didnt cover that, after that I had never had access to any services, and was labled a problem, it wasnt until College when I was finally diagnosed with ADD and Grad School when I was diagnosed with autism.
On the other hand I don’t have anything… Dina cleay doesnt like Joyce. Joyce needs to see psychologist hopefully her healthcare covers it.
Bold of her to assume that Joyce wasn’t bullied and didn’t just “forgive” it while growing up because that is what she was taught to do. Hard to say with Joyce being home schooled and social interaction was probably severely limited. I just wouldn’t put it past her former self to do something like that.
As much as I understand Dina not wanting to talk to Joyce about this, I sort of feel like she is continuing to take out her frustration about Joyce being diagnosed and her not being able to be diagnosed on the wrong person. Ever since Joyce mentioned the diagnosis, Dina has been accusatory and dismissive of any issues Joyce has (and while Joyce started the conversation here, Dina was the one pressing it earlier). Saying that you don’t want to talk to someone about something and demeaning someone else’s experiences are two different things. On a side note, this feels like trying to pair a cat and a dog together, and is not going well.
In panel 3, Dina’s mention of being called a robot. Think back on who called her that, I believe before her diagnosis, something Joyce has yet to apologize for in any way, shape, or form, yet she’s just kind of assuming Dina and her are buddies on this. We sure Dina’s the one being bold here?
I am not defending Joyce’s actions surrounding the previous treatment of Dina. Dina hasn’t been this aggressive in belittling Joyce until the diagnosis. It makes me think that the trigger wasn’t the bullying but the diagnosis. She could say a lot of things, such as we are not friends enough to talk about it, directly mention the stuff that Joyce has done (if Joyce does have autism, mimicking how others treat Dina or not realizing how her actions/words could be perceived could be part of it), or just say that it is a frustrating topic that she doesn’t want to talk about. Instead she belittles Joyce’s experience. Two wrongs don’t make a right. There are ways of handling this without being passive aggressive or using snide comments.
As a small, very minor correction, Joyce isn’t diagnosed *yet*. A doctor who knows an autistic person and recognized some stuff told her to talk to somebody else about maybe seeing if she might be autistic.
The inciting incident for dina’s current behaviour was joyce calling her a robot. People like saying rhat the two haven’t been friends which i find very strange. They’ve both acted fairly friendly to each other in the past and thought there has been friction it’s pretty much putely about joyce being deeply religious and dina not and them playing that up around each other. Before that morbing they both trusted and cared for each other even if they weren’t the closest friends in the friend group.
But the friend group has also constantly subjected dina to ableist microaggressions. These aren’t malicious or anything but they do add up and and when dina go to joice to ask about their uppbringing out of concern for both of them joice calls her a robot which is is in practice a slur. Like yeah dina’s approach to asking her about their uppbringing was not the best but that was still an uncalled deep cut that pretty much crushed their relationship. The fact that joice found out about her possible diagnosis that same day is just an unfortunate coincidence.
I forgot the timing on that. If that’s the case, that would definitely contribute more than I thought to this whole scenario. I’ve personally seen Joyce and Dina as acquaintances but not really friends. Joyce seems (or seemed, the traumatic events seem to have changed her) to be friendly to most people, like a Labrador retriever.
They absolutely are friends. They’re just not the tightest friends in the group and that comment was, to dina, a deep betrayal of that friendship. They still can patch things up but ot’s gonna have to fall on joice to at first understand why what she said is wrong which can take a while since, to be fair to her, she’s probably also associating with dina’s intrusion of her privacy and subsequent causing of pain.
I would not consider them friends at all. They appear to share a set of friends but are not friends. As far as I can see Sarah, Amber and Becky are her friends.
Dina’s has mostly been neutral, horrified or hostile in regards to Joyce interaction with few friendly interactions.
They are super, duper not friends. This is confusing at points because Joyce is friendly even to people she is not friends with! But Dina dislikes Joyce a lot, and has communicated this indirectly and also semi-directly, and recently, very, very directly.
I don’t get how people thing Dina and Joyce were ever friends they never liked eachother. Joyce thought Dina was creepy wierd and was insulting her entire belief system and considered her an idiot because of her anti science beliefs.
They showed very little interest in eachother outside sharing a love of Becky
It doesn’t seem that?way to me she was cordial but she’s that way towards everyone. It doesn’t seem like it. She is not a very warm intimate person. Maybe it’s just my reading and I treat people differently than she and other people do.
No, you’re right, Dina is at best indifferent to Joyce/ willing to tolerate her existence for Becky’s sake, and at worst disdains her for her beliefs and manner. This has been shown countless times, as far as I’m concerned.
So, my initial reaction to this was that Dina’s reaction here feels a bit uncalled for. Joyce is coming to her for advice, essentially, and trying to establish some common ground, and Dina responded by kinda diminishing what she’s going through and turning it into a competition – and then I realized I was dangerously close to using the phrase “oppression olympics” unironically, punched myself in the head, and checked my privilege.
My experience with autism has been a fairly positive one, in large part due to the fact that I am a white, cisgender man. And as is often the case for white men, I am prone to getting a bit defensive when it is suggested that a POC may have had a harder time of it than me. Of course Dina has had a rougher experience than Joyce, and of course she’s not particularly enthusiastic to compare notes on the subject. And, of course, while Joyce’s anxieties about this are valid, it’s not Dina’s responsibility to educate Joyce, or to babysit her through this learning process. All things considered, Dina is actually being remarkably polite in this strip.
P.S. Unrelated, but hey Joyce, it was actually Sarah who suggested that. Jennifer was visibly confused.
Gonna be real here, I was kind of hoping to preempt some of the inevitable “Dina is being a butt” comments with this, but then it took me like half an hour to write and I fear I am too late.
There’s nothing polite about Dina’s response and she and you are wildly underestimating how much this HAS affected Joyce, who’s been written as blatantly autistic for years and years, and it was never difficult to see that it was a much more significant issue for her than either Dina or Joyce herself seem to realize. Dina has struggled more, there’s no question of that, but Joyce didn’t even get to KNOW she was autistic until this point in her life. Isn’t that also pretty damned awful? Does it have to be downplayed just because Dina’s experiences were even more awful? I sure don’t think so.
I get where Dina is coming from emotionally but I think autistic people should stick together when possible and this was a shockingly cruel thing for her to say to Joyce. Of course it isn’t Dina’s responsibility to educate or “babysit” Joyce but there was nothing wrong with Joyce WANTING TO TALK TO ANOTHER AUTISTIC PERSON NOW THAT SHE JUST FOUND OUT SHE’S AUTISTIC, there is nothing polite or okay about Dina’s response whatsoever, and Dina does not owe Joyce a conversation or education or “babysitting”, she DOES owe Joyce a serious apology. They absolutely have common ground, they do not have to be precisely the same to understand each other, and the only thing I’m more disappointed in than Dina right now moment is this comments section.
As for you, stop beating yourself up for being white, cis, and male. It isn’t helping anyone. I’m none of the those things, had a worse time with autism than you but much better than Dina, and oppression olympics is a very real phenomenon that is often deliberately weaponized within communities. Yes, there are people who have it much worse or much better than others, but discounting other people’s problems because there are other people whose problems are worse is just disgusting behavior full stop. I somehow am so many types of oppressed that it’s almost silly, and all I can think is here is “‘check your privilege’ my ass.” Regardless of how many disadvantages you don’t happen to have in life, your experiences matter. You can understand that there are people who have it worse without disallowing yourself to care about the problems you DO have and it’s gross that there are people and communities that push people to think otherwise.
This is a serious problem with privilege theory in action: that it frames situations in which some people are disadvantaged, as situations in which others have special advantages. This only fuels the flames of collective human suffering and impedes actual progress and change.
You deserve better friends than the ones you must have. I hope you get an upgrade someday.
Okay, first of all, there’s no need to insult or make judgements about my personal life. Rude.
Second of all, I feel I should clarify some things. I am NOT “beating myself up” about being a white cis man. There is a difference between hating myself and acknowledging – and working to overcome – my own biases and the limits of my experience.
I am also NOT SAYING that Joyce’s experiences – or my own, or anyone else’s – aren’t valid; just that Dina’s experiences and feelings are also valid and should be considered. Joyce is not Dina’s favorite person right now, and it’s okay for her to be, shall we say, touchy around her.
Finally, regarding “oppression olympics,” I have only ever seen that term used by conservatives as a way to dismiss systemic critique or accusations of bigotry. Obviously, there are some people who use their marginalized or disadvantaged status to score points and exclude other marginalized people, but those are never actually the people I’ve seen this term used to demonize. Maybe the term has a more benign usage, but that has been my experience.
Oh, and third (or fifth?): To rebut your argument about privilege, framing privilege as strictly being a lack of disadvantage is just dishonest. Certainly, there are disadvantages that marginalized groups have, but there are also advantages that are bestowed by privilege and denied to the marginalized – wealth, connections, access, opportunities. This isn’t because it’s a zero-sum game and every disadvantage must have a corresponding advantage; it’s because cisheteronormative white-supremacist patriarchy has spent the last few centuries (at least) rigging the game in every conceivable way.
As somebody who has High Functioning Autism myself, I like how they show the wide range the spectrum has. I do think Joyce should talk to somebody about being Autism, but she needs it fully explained to her first by a professional, how wide that spectrum is and how it has effected people.
Joyce is on the very high end of high functioning, while Dina is on the lower end of high functioning, at least from what I can gather from her interactions with others. I’m closer to Dina on the scale (im also Asexual) however im exceptional at masking and faking social skills, makes me exceptional at customer service as long as confrontation doesn’t happen, im only ever my real self when im alone in my room. Tip for those who are trying to learn how to Mask, Playing D&D helps a lot, its essentially acting but the audience is very small, and you can do it Online where they will only hear your voice, so you don’t gotta worry about making the right face or worrying about doing the right thing with your hands.
Personally, I found training myself and having others try to train me, like a dog, to pretend to be something they found more palatable, kind of a nightmare, and I’d rather die than ever bother again. If someone has a problem with me, that’s how I know to cut ties and move on, because they’re not worth knowing.
I want to say something like “I’m glad some people who want to do this have resources” and in your case I see that it helps with your job, but I cannot help but think that the better answer, in most circumstances where this isn’t directly necessary for personal safety, would be to just love ourselves even a little bit.
The idea that you are only ever your real self when you’re alone in your room is horrifying. You deserve better than that. All of us do.
Yeah. Some of my favorite reading has been the work of John Elder Robison, about his life growing up “free range” — undiagnosed, and finding what worked for him. So important to just BE.
I’ve found that training myself and have others train me “like a dog” has made it easier for me to mask and relate to people I’d otherwise alienate by acting like a fucking weirdo. I’ve always been open about being on the spectrum, but being able to trick myself and other people into acting normal is WAY more useful than “being myself”
Woooow I rarely get mad at Dina but regardless of her own past this was REALLY shitty behavior from her. That was a HUGE dick move. Also, her assessment of how little Joyce’s autism allegedly affects her is DEFINITELY not accurate, even if it’s true that Joyce wasn’t bullied about it.
Also, it’s horrible that Dina was denied resources, but I think it’s similarly horrible that Joyce never even got to know that they existed or that they could have helped her.
Joyce was admittedly a jerk to Dina recently, I forget precisely in what way, but this was really, REALLY gross of Dina and as an autistic person myself I’m actually kind of angry in real life about it lmao
– Not being diagnosed doesn’t mean she doesn’t have autism. It’s a very tough diagnosis to get (especially as an adult, especially as a woman, and in Dina’s case especially as a woman of colour) and many people choose not to get a formal diagnosis for many reasons. It can be used to oppress you, can be brought up in child custody hearings, and several other things I don’t feel like listing but encourage you to google.
– “I’m extremely skeptical of this” is an invalidating thing to say. Now, you’re talking about a character who isn’t real and can’t have hurt feelings about what you say, but this kind of thing is said to neurodivergent people All The Time to minimize and invalidate the very real struggles we have. Usually because A) “You don’t look like you’re struggling” or B) “No, you’re just weird”.
A) Happens because we’re taught from a very young age to “mask” and hide the ways in which we are struggling.
B) Happens because people want to dislike us/bully us but don’t view themselves as the kind of person who would bully someone with a “real” condition. So they decide we don’t have one.
– Lastly, whether or not it has “been established” Joyce plainly displays autistic and neurodivergent traits. Enough so that no one in her life was even surprised. Enough so that she personally is reckoning with the possibility as a real likelihood. It’s a little wild to think that you, a person who views her from the outside, knows more than she does from inside her own (admittedly imaginary) mind.
I get that you’re pointing out that joice hasn’y had her diagnosis yet, only a referral but it reads like you’re saying we shouldn’t believe her without proof.
I’m a writer and an English major. I’m approaching this as a textual problem because Dumbing of Age is, in fact, a text. So, what is the textual evidence that Joyce is autistic? We have Joyce’s second hand account of her examination by a doctor who is neither a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Is it possible the doctor was correct? Of course. But it’s also possible that the doctor is wrong. As Nova said above, it is also an extremely difficult to make. I would never presume to tell a person in real-life that he or she is or is not autistic because I am not an authority on mental health. My only point here is that the evidence for Joyce’s being autistic is far from iron-clad, and is still, for now, an open-ended question.
From another writer and English major, even if I take you in good faith (and I’m honestly not inclined to), you really came across as being extremely gatekeeper-y about this. At best, that could’ve been you communicating poorly, but it didn’t feel that way and I frankly doubt that was actually what was happening.
And do you seriously think THIS AUTHOR would raise this question only for the answer to be “lol nah she’s actually not?” I could MAYBE see it going in a direction where Joyce’s issue isn’t autism but is something else, but this character has been written the same way for years, has been interpreted this way by a lot of readers for years, and I can’t think of anything that makes more sense here than autism.
I’m not sure if you’re being disingenuous with the comments section or yourself, but maybe try not being disingenuous at all. Tends to go better for everyone.
Being a writer qualifies nobody for anything. Most writers are dogshit at what they do. Using it as credentials in a conversation about autism is about as useful as saying you’re a licensed driver.
It’s not being used as a “credential” in any way. They were simply explaining their approach to this FICTIONAL STORYLINE and FICTIONAL CHARACTER. Don’t pretend you didn’t get exactly what they meant; shame on you and the others biting their head off in this comment string.
Gotta love people out here tone policing the neurodivergent crowd when we’re actively discussing neurodivergence. The irony is too strong. Sorry you got hit by the infantilising “shame on you” and accusations of pretending to misunderstand something you plainly understood just fine, Taffy.
I’m not super concerned about it, Nova. They’re a blatant hypocrite, liar, and bigot, and the most they’ll say to those accusations is some generic dismissive “Um, who are you?” type of thing. Their invocation of shame is worth about as much as sand in a desert, and not half as useful. Maybe they’ll grow up some day and get over their delusions, but it’s not our job to coddle them.
Don’t forget the part where they come back ’round a day (or more) later to leave some snippy, holier-than-thou remark because they’re sure you won’t see it. +1 on the bigot part, too.
I said it’s a difficult diagnosis to GET not tough to actually diagnose. There’s a lot of stigma, medical neglect, sexism, racism, and ableism to contend with on your path to a diagnosis.
Please don’t misrepresent my view after I spent a decent amount of time typing it up for you.
Maybe they just didn’t get what exactly you were saying? Maybe you could have explained better? Maybe it was poor wording on their part (particularly since a word seems to be missing?) Everyone’s so quick to assume evil intent from others in this fucking comment section, it’s cringeworthy.
Maybe you should be as charitable in interpretation toward those who DON’T share your views as you are toward those who DO?
I said please, and I re-explained. If you took that as me “assuming evil intent” then that’s a you problem and I won’t be apologizing for a simple statement of fact and an easy-to-meet request.
Couldn’t care less what you find cringey, stranger.
Marvelman, as I just said about you in another comment thread, I can’t stop you from being the autism police, but trying to be the autism police does still make you scum. PLEASE go find another gate to keep.
Outrageous overreaction from you. Reread your responses to this person and feel some fucking shame, will you? They explained their approach to this and you STILL had to double down and shit on them and accuse them of acting in bad faith. What they offered as a justification for their initial post made perfect sense- it’s not 100% established that FICTIONAL CHARACTER Joyce is actually autistic. That’s all. No need to keep going for their throat, Jesus.
And Joyce barely knew anything about this, had just been woken up, was in extreme physical pain, and continues to struggle with having a very sheltered upbringing. They both owe each other an apology but I’m certainly more upset with the person with more knowledge choosing to be cruel than the person who knew less and, while nowhere near 100%, said something really hurtful. This also really seemed to happen while they both autism’d right past each other. Joyce seemed to think Dina was implying that Joyce was a “bad kid” rather than making the point that NO ONE should be hitting their children, then she made a terrible word choice that I felt was pretty clearly an attempt to communicate “you’re super good at following rules, so why would your parents have ever had reason to hit YOU?”, something Dina didn’t understand. It’s not her fault that she didn’t, but why are we all acting like Joyce said this out of malice while in a totally normal state of mind when that is absolutely what happened?
Yes, i’m not disagreeing with any of this. It was not out of malice but the effect is still that dina saw one of her friends call her an ableist slur. They do both need to apologize but i think joyce needs to be the first to do so.
Not even “why would your parents have ever had reason to hit YOU?”, but “that’s the only possible reason your parents wouldn’t have hit you”.
OTOH, she wouldn’t have said it that way to Dorothy, so the prejudice was still there even if it wasn’t done in malice.
It was gross of Dina to be cruel to Joyce, who has had very little chance to learn about any of this. It’s sympathetic but it was a cruel thing to do. They both owe each other an apology. That’s really all there is to it.
i think there may be a theme in this chapter of people coming down a bit hard and then having to go like ‘well, that was justified in direction, but maaaybe not in magnitude?’ Dorothy/Jennifer, Amber/Booster, Dina Joyce- they’re not wrong, but also, oof.
Yeah. I keep reminding myself that they are all still young and learning (also all probably highly traumatized). Not sure that you ever really stop learning though.
As someone who has been asked if I am in high school even when I am twice that age (due to appearance not actions), I can understand why that gets frustrating. At least guys can normally grow beards to get by that, while those of us that are women get to deal with being told that it’s a compliment.
I actually got confused for a High schooler WELL into my 20s, but that’s because I work at a Wendy’s. I guess most people assume a college graduate would be doing bigger and better things.
you can find someone cute without necessarily infantilizing them lol, though i assumed around that age depending on the person not as many males would find it as endearing as girls who would take ‘cute’ as more of a compliment
Couscous and rice milk are very soothing to me.
So are tuna melts and chocolate milkshakes.
So is macaroni ‘n’ cheese with penny hot dogs fried in butter and just a little catsup.
And straight unsweetened dark baking chocolate, of course.
And Postum with whole milk.
And chicory coffee with blackstrap molasses.
And black tea with jasmine and honey and lemon.
And Genmaicha.
And many wild plants picked roadside.
…Any one of those will just bring me back to happy, homey memories.
What about you? What foods make you feel calm and safe?
Bacon. I will eat an entire pound of bacon in one sitting if allowed. My dad always made it before school, said it would “make me fit in better”. He wasn’t necessarily wrong, since I was Bacon Kid for like 3 years cuz I’d always have some on-hand.
I eat a shit ton of goldfish (The cracker, not the animal) but that’s more outta boredom.
Crab is my favorite food and I eat it every year on my birthday. But because of that (and how expensive it is) I don’t eat it very often.
I love Cheesy Parmesan Chicken Pot Pies and eat them whenever I don’t feel like cooking dinner.
I really really love Fetuccini Alfredo. Can’t get enough of it.
Also Mac and Cheese rules. I could eat it all day.
Hot Chocolate’s good sometimes
I like making chicken Quesadillas though I feel like I could probably make them better.
Oh Fried Rice rules.
I’ll probably think of 10 more but I’ll stop here.
When my family used to get together and visit my grandmother (back when she was still alive) we would put out traps and catch crabs. She lived by the beach. And dig for clams, but we had more luck with crabs. Boiled, cracked, eaten fresh… sweet succulence itself.
Comfort foods (positive emotions) for me mostly involve cooked tomatoes. Pasta marinara, tikka masala, tomato soups, stews with stewed tomatos. Also Dr Pepper and tuna casserole. Safe foods (sensory and trauma issues) are things like butter noodles, butter rice, tuna mac (if I make it), grilled cheese, and pineapple or peaches.
Macaroni and cheese with sweet peas and seasoned ground beef, Mom-style. I’ve always got room for at least a small bowl of burger mac with peas. And it’s cheap, so it’s never hard to get.
Chop up half an onion, soak it in vegetable oil and a pinch of baking soda in a large pan. Heat on medium for 8 minutes or until onions are just about to caramelize. Add two tablespoons of ketchup, a teaspoons of soy sauce, 2 tablespoons of chicken stock and stir well. I corporate rice and fold in multiple times until heated thoroughly. Form it into a “log” shape to put into the omelet and remove from heat.
For the omelet, whisk two eggs and two tablespoons of chicken stock. Pour into a hot greesed large pan. Just seconds before the egg is cooked, transfer the rice log to the center of the egg, and fold the whole thing on it’s side. Transfer to plate, and decorate with ketchup.
It’s good for when I have the time and ingredients, but for me, in terms of comfort food, few could compare to just dipping a toasted corndog in mustard. Simple, easy and delicious! 😋💛🌭😊
Mac and cheese. It’s funny, in every shitty moment in my life. Mac and cheese has always been there for me.
I remember my dad used to be very psychologically abusive towards my mom and he’d always make her cook specific dishes. When he left it took her a while (about two months, probably more) to self deprogram this specific need to cook certain dishes and one night mom just looked at me and went “what the hell am I doing? Do you even like what I’m cooking? What do YOU want to eat? We don’t have to eat this garbage I’m cooking. He’s not here we can eat whatever we want.” She made Mac and cheese that day and over 20 plus years later, she has NEVER cooked any of my dad’s favorite dishes again.
She makes a killer Mac an cheese though. And and time life knocks me down (more than I care to admit) she’s always there with a bowl of it.
Everyone can enjoy it, barring extreme examples. It has a broad appeal, and usually isn’t too hard on the wallet. Plus it’s carbs and cheese, which I’m pretty sure humans were deliberately evolved to prize above all else.
My favorite comfort food is probably fresh-baked bread. Nothing fancy, just warm white bread with butter (or butter substitute, which while I’m not vegan I do actually prefer.) It’s nostalgic, it’s not too hard to make (though it can be a bit time-consuming), you can eat it with your hands, and I’m never not in the mood for it.
Ooh, I do love baking bread! Before I messed up my hands, I used to bake all the time. I’ve spent several nights at other people’s houses just doing nothing but baking loaf after loaf after loaf of bread, all night long. The bread project just kept growing!
My favorite bread recipe is Cuban bread: a white ball-shaped loaf, with a pan of water in the oven underneath it, so the steam will make the crust flaky.
Donuts from the place 5 minutes from me. They’ve got the best donuts I’ve eaten in my entire life, bar none. The best ones are the ones with strawberry frosting and sugar crystals on.
Indeed I can! Granted, that means I have to be there around lunchtime, which is when they open and the donuts still are fresh baked, but the option is there.
We have a spaghetti & meatball night, weekly. I love pho (especially when it’s raining) with an egg. Ramen is the bomb. Fish over rice is 10/10. This year I also learned how to make red beans & rice. Beef stroganoff.
My husband makes a mean sun-dried tomato tuscan pasta that we are both in love with. He also makes macaroni in tomato sauce if we can’t be bothered to cook for longer than it takes to boil water.
I also love cinnamon rolls and those Tombstone frozen pizzas. The year I spent without an oven was hell since I couldn’t eat my favorite garbage pizza.
First atheism, then autism…Dina steadfastly refuses to bond over ANY common ground wih Joyce. Even when presented the opportunity on a silver platter.
Honestly, I don’t buy it. I don’t buy that Dina would choose to completely ignore her Becky’s first and closest friend, and then shoot down any opportunities to get to know her further. They don’t bond over, say, Joyce PUNCHING OUT TOEDAD in defense of Becky. She seems to still believe Joyce is fundamentalist Christian. It’s just…weird. Forced. I want them to be friends.
But no, Joyce’s specific trauma doesn’t perfectly match the trauma Dina is looking for, so she dismisses her as privileged scum not worth talking to.
Another turn of the wheel, another nasty update where characters keep getting MEANER. Bring back Sal and Danny please.
I mean. Joyce has contributed to the infantilising and calling Dina a ‘robot’ so you know, maybe Dina doesn’t WANT to bond with her and it doesn’t really MATTER how much common ground exists if she doesn’t want to be friends with Joyce and isn’t particularly forgiving of the ways Joyce has slighted her previously just because Joyce is a forgiving person.
Dina has good reasons to not like Joyce, yes. I’m moreso complaining that EVERY single goddamn interaction Joyce has had recently feels like this: Joyce clearly looking for help, and everyone involved drops a pithy 1-3 panel judgment on her and mic drops.
These characters used to have fucking CONVERSATIONS. now it’s just a conga line of “fuck you Joyce, reason #47” from everybody except Joe. Dina makes sense individually, but I am exhausted by this pattern.
Fair. Joyce herself has engaged in this also recently of people try to start a conversation and she doesn’t respond well. There’s been a lot of that in general from almost everyone and I too find it exhausting.
Yeah, it’s quite the predictable and sometimes boring pattern, but I understand where they’re coming from.
Joyce’s past as a preaching proxy has finally caught up with her, and detaching herself from her former fundamentalist identity is going to be quite the frustrating process.
Gotta remember that Joyce is autobiographical for Willis, so it could be that this is how things went down for him, or at least is how he remembers it going.
In her own case, Dina talks about the things that were done *to her* but in Joyce’s, about the things that *Joyce* does.
Dina does not owe Joyce a thing. Still, this statement of asymmetry sounds ironically and unfairly asymmetrical.
Becky should know. I feel she would know how to point out the right things to both of them.
Has it ever actually been established that Joyce is 100% autistic? What I remember is that she was examined once by someone who was not a mental health professional. But some people in the comments have taken this diagnosis as gold, so maybe I’m wrong. Could some kind soul please point me to the strip where Joyce’s autism was clearly established?
I mean not to Start A Problem but I think people are going based on the fact this has been a widely established headcanon for the character to the point that it’s a widely established headcanon for the author which, while I’m pretty sure narratively she’s not going to get told she’s allistic, is a tweensy bit questionable yes.
Yeah, Willis has acknowledged that ‘is Joyce traumatized or autistic’ has been a common debate when the headcanons came up on this site for YEARS (and mentioned at least a few times he’s asked that question about himself) before it was directly addressed in-strip. Bringing it up at all felt like turning coding into text, especially since the barriers to formal diagnosis are pretty well-known and documented.
I mean, she’s been written like an autistic person for years, and getting a professional diagnosis often does as much harm as good, sometimes much more harm. I’m autistic and relate to Joyce and that’s enough for me. If somebody wants to be the autism gatekeeper today, I can’t stop them, but I do think they’re scum.
People who make overblown accusations based on their misreading of someone’s conduct could also be considered pretty lacking in character, by some metrics. “Scum” is a totally unwarranted insult from you on scant basis, and you ought to be ashamed of indulging yourself in it.
Autistic and generally Team Dina for almost everything, but I’m Team Joyce today (although not in a way where I really like Dina less?). If Dina is this informed about autism, then even if she doesn’t like Joyce, she should understand that Joyce probably couldn’t have learned to be more tactful if nobody understood that she was predisposed to having difficulties with social skills. I don’t think she has to like Joyce, and if I were her I wouldn’t like Joyce both because of Joyce’s tactlessness to/about Dina and because Dina’s girlfriend is really transparently still in love with Joyce. I wouldn’t have even judged Dina for going “No, I still don’t like you and I’m bitter about how easy it was for you to get a diagnosis even though you have a milder version of our disability than I do”, but the way Dina put it makes it sound like Joyce doesn’t have the right to consider herself someone with this disability at all? Then again, maybe Dina didn’t really feel allowed to have these emotions unless she could justify them rationally, and that rationalization came out so cruel because she has all these negative feelings about Joyce that she doesn’t feel free to express and probably hasn’t even fully processed… I guess it probably isn’t fair to expect Dina to be tactful here either. I still don’t this particular expression of tactlessness, though.
On the other hand, I’m really fucking sick of trying to interact with some fandom community or whatever where half the people there are openly autistic and I’m still the one who doesn’t fit the vibe, I’m still the one who tries to connect with people only for them to stop replying forever a couple days later and I never even know what I did wrong, I’m still the one who people eventually just start treating like they don’t exist. So why is this happening? I have a bunch of other shit wrong with my head, but a lot of these people do, too. Why can these people get along with each other? What’s so different about me? If we’re the same, then why aren’t we the fucking same?
But on the other other hand, I wonder if my friend whose autism is more disabling than mine is thinks these things about me.
It’s not the cleanest response but it’s important to remember that dina feel recently beyrayed by joice. Someone she did consider a friend basically called her a slur after she asked her about her and her friend’s upbringing out of concern. She’s lashing out both about the ease of which joice got access to a diagnosis but more specifically about that which happened just this or last morning.
As someone who is autistic and was abused as a kid I found Dina’s questioning of Joyce about her upbringing to be invasive and insensitive. Joyce was equally insensitive back. They both acted poorly in that interaction, but neither had mean intentions.
I find it odd that commenter are picking sides, when really they’re as bad as each other (I.e. not that bad)
I do get exhausted by the weird “taking sides” that happens so often in response to this comic, like someone has to be 100% right or 100% wrong and if you disagree with something a character said or did it must mean you hate everything about them and disagree with everything they said.
Begging people to remember nuance. I can both agree that Dina’s desire for boundaries is valid, and think the way she expressed that desire is pretty dismissive no problematic.
Just as I can sympathize with Joyce simultaneously being told she’s obviously autistic by everyone she knows except the one person who also definitely has autism who is invalidating her experiences, while also agreeing Joyce has a lot of past “sins” so to speak to make up for with people like Dina that may make her interactions less than welcome.
It’s fiction about college students who historically tend to be a group with a lot of issues that make a lot of mistakes and it’s weird seeing people ascribe either perfection or villainy to slightly cartoonishly exaggerated stories of normal human experiences at an age where people are definitely going to have many flaws.
But then at the same time echo agreement IRL with some of those expectedly bad takes in a way that does shift into dismissing real people’s experiences. In a way where it stops being enjoying a comic that is fictional and starts turning into “this is a reminder how many people actually still think this way IRL.” :/
All of this yes. Dina has plenty of other valid reasons to have an issue with Joyce and is by no means obligated to be her friend just because they’re both autistic, and Joyce is not really reading the room/being self aware by assuming this would automatically make them bond, BUT on the flip side, like you, I have experienced having my struggles completely invalidated by people who assume their own experiences must be more difficult or assume that my apparent ease at life must mean I have no real struggles.
It is hard enough experiencing ableism and lack of understanding from the able-bodied members of society, but it especially stings when it comes from within your own community in the form of lateral ableism, gatekeeping, competition over who has it worse, etc. these are people you would hope wouldn’t do that, because they should understand how harmful those attitudes are, yet many still do act this way towards fellow disabled people.
I don’t know if this is what your talking about, but I don’t see internet fandom forums as a place to make friends. Its a place to comment on a topics I’m interested in for as long as I’m interested in the topic. Also I assume the forums for one comic will die when the next comic is up and conversations are unlikely to carry over.
If someone on this forum tried to get to know me in any sort of real setting from the forum I might be freaked out.
Also you are less likely to notice those who are struggling socially more than you than the social butterflies of the forum.
Consider that it might just be the internet and not you.
I am largely talking about Discord servers and the like where most of the interaction is casual and off-topic and people are absolutely making friends, I am not always the one initiating these interactions, and I’m not even setting out to make friends? Theoretically I don’t even want more friends, I don’t have many but I don’t really have the emotional bandwidth to care about more people than this. I just keep finding myself in situations where a group or person is cool and it looks like friendship is going to happen. but… well, see above. I am not going, like, here, to try to make friends, I am going here to weigh in on fictional beefs and complain about ships I don’t like, this is not my trying to be human face at all
but thanks for assuming that having a disability that affects social skills means i can’t assess whether a social space includes normalized friend-making or not, you absolute shitstain. i don’t know why you thought this would be helpful. get fucked.
(@ anyone in this comments section who can’t tell if a social space includes normalized friend-making or not: you are okay and i’m not saying i’m better than you, i just hate it when people who don’t know me tell me i’m wrong about my own life because they’re filling in the blanks with something completely non-applicable)
While Dina tries to keep interactions peaceful because Becky and for peace itself, she doesn’t really owe her resources. And I know sharing it’s not about owing but mutual help beccause the world is hard enough as it is but at this moment of their lives they just clash too much.
Dina has a right not to pick the option that will exhaust her the most.
So I feel like a big problem with Comments Discourse for this comic is that people tend to treat every strip as if it is The End Point Of The Story. And to be clear, I get that impulse, because technically speaking, until the next Most Recent Strip uploads, it’s kind of true, and it can certainly FEEL very true in the moment given it’s The Most Immediate Thing we have to react to in the story.
But especially when one remembers that these are, in fact, deeply imperfect Kids who do not and will not always act in ways we personally approve of, I do think there’s a certain shortsightedness to reacting SO strongly all the time to Every Last Most Recent Thing when we do not yet have the fullest sense of where that thing stands in the greater context of the ongoing story, to say nothing of how giving one’s feelings time to simmer is just sort of a good idea for trying to produce Good Analysis just in general. Like…barring a larger context, this is just One Somewhat Gruff Conversation between Dina and Joyce, NOT A Definitive Treatise On The Morality Of All Discussions About Autism, and I dunno that we gain anything from treating it more like the latter than the former, y’know?
Oh, and before anyone asks? Yeah, I’m On The Spectrum.
I have a whole collection of mortifying regrets if I want to do intense analysis of less than stellar interactions. These are just kids, doing close enough to the best they can with what they got, in a narrative structure, with jokes sometimes. Not like me, I should definitely still be obsessing over an interaction with a stranger 22 years ago.
Honestly, I usually stop posting entirely when the topic turns to certain things – if other people do that, Im not surprised at the impression you got.
Got a better one.
Allistic people put up with the same shit they put autistic people through for literally even five fucking minutes challenge (insta-fail)
I’m not autistic, but I have CPTSD that has truly fucked my life into little bitty pieces because I kept getting deeply traumatized by people (like they were handing me off to each other like some kind of football), so maybe this isn’t the flex you seem to think it is.
I don’t think it’s any sort of “flex”. It’s me being rude to hypothetical people stepping out of their lane to weigh in on something they’ve never experienced and have no knowledge of. I’m absolutely not saying anyone’s trauma isn’t real, and it’s weird that you’d think I am.
I mean, Dina is somewhat wrong, somewhat not, there are many ways in which she and Joyce ARE in fact the same like ‘childish’ food interests, being infantilised, being mocked for autistic traits for years, not having access to resources until adulthood.
But she is also right that Joyce’s autism has not really been a source of trauma for her on its own. While Dina’s has always been much more overt. And you can’t really compare your best friend and family lovingly lightly teasing you over liking your food separated with years of targeted torment because you are unable to pretend to be neurotypical.
And regardless, Dina doesn’t have to be willing to talk to her about it or teach her about it. She’s still allowed to go ‘I don’t want to do that’.
… Given the family Joyce grew up with? I’m not so sure it HASN’T been a source of Trauma for her, she just didn’t know it was autism.
I cannot imagine a fundie household that expects every to fit a specific role is.. going to be great for an ND person growing up. You’re going to have to learn to mask hard, early, and *ALWAYS*, at all times.
Yeah, this. Joyce is good at masking, and as someone who’s closer to Dina than Joyce in my presentation I can understand where Dina is coming from that it would seem like being able to mask is a benefit, I should also point out (as a queer person who was closeted for years) that an autistic person masking is equivalent to a queer person staying in the closet. “Passing privilege” is no privilege at all since it’s associated with severe mental health effects, on top of existing prejudice.
But as a kid when my sibling who can mask very well got an ADHD diagnosis before me I felt a lot like Dina, so I can relate.
I recently went back and looked at at that restaurant conversation with John, Joycelene, Joyce, and Becky, because I was trying to remember if it was just John, who’d mocked Joyce for ordering off the children’s menu. Spoilers, it was all of them!
And what initially comes across as yeah, some light teasing—“Joyce, you can’t go to India, you’d starve to death”—turns into infantilization really, really fast, when Joyce said some things that annoyed John, and her food aversions became a justification for not taking her anger about Ross and the kidnapping and the gun seriously.
While I agree with people saying Dina is not obligated to “bond” with Joyce over this if she doesn’t want to, and that her own experience has obviously been different, I take issue with the idea that just because she realized her autism late and may not struggle as much with it as Dina, it somehow means she hasn’t experienced any trauma as a result of it.
While I don’t have experience with being autistic (as far as I know) I was diagnosed with ADHD VERY late (at 36) and also live with an invisible physical disability (diagnosed late as well at 30) and I know all too well that “passing” is not always the “privilege” it seems to be when it comes to mental or physical health issues.
Yes it means you don’t get infantilized the same way a very visibly disabled person might, but on the flip side, you constantly fail to meet people’s expectations of how you should behave or what you should be able to do because you “look normal.” Any failure to conform to the expected “normal” is seen as laziness, a lack of effort, a personal failing, because no one believes you have a valid reason to be struggling.
I see this debate a lot in the disability community, and I’ve experienced both visible and invisible disability. When I’ve needed to use a wheelchair or some other obvious mobility aide, I experienced discrimination (infantilization, being treated like furniture, assumptions I must be mentally as well as physically disabled and therefore must be unable to understand things, staring, etc). When I’m not using any mobility aides, while those particular types of discrimination happen way less, I experience significant amounts of disbelief: that there could be anything wrong with me, that I could need assistance, assumptions I must be lazy or faking, etc. And while most of it comes from abled people, some of it HAS come from within the disability community, from people who assume being invisibly disabled means I don’t experience any struggle and am just a lazy person co-opting an identity for sympathy, when I reality I’m experiencing things that may be different but also significantly challenging (such as severe chronic pain).
This kind of gatekeeping is generally discouraged in disability spaces because it’s not helpful. At all. It’s a form of internalized or lateral ableism, and it only serves to perpetuate the biased narratives abled people have about disability.
Now obviously this is a comic about teens/young adults and in that setting it’s realistic that Dina, a young person who has been overlooked, might take her frustration out on Joyce and might have resentment over Joyce’s seemingly “quick and easy” diagnosis. And frankly Dina as a character could use a flaw or two, no one is perfect, so I’m happy to see this possible step into addressing the idea of lateral ableism and hope it will be dealt with sensitively, in a way that shows the issue with this kind of gatekeeping. But the fact there are people in the comics going “yes Dina is right, Joyce hasn’t experienced trauma as a result of her autism,” shows just how persistent a problem this is and how much people lack an understanding of invisible disability still.
I’d also add: While racial bias in medicine is a VERY real problem, I think in this particular case, Dina is mistakenly thinking it was so easy for Joyce simply because she’s white, when clearly Joyce has also gone however many years (I forget how old they are) without being diagnoses as well until she HAPPENED to see a Dr. who has an autistic child. I’m betting had Dina gone to that same dr, she’d also have gotten a suggestion to seek diagnosis. Because frankly that’s often what it comes down to with things like this: luck. Women in general tend to be severely under diagnosed for MANY things: complex illnesses that occur more commonly in women and therefore have less awareness and study, and things like ADHD and autism in which study has primarily focused on boys and men.
While it’s very clear racial bias has played a role in Dina’s struggles to get a diagnosis (previous drs assuming she must be a ESL speaker because if her race and incorrectly attributing her communication issues to that) that doesn’t mean it’s *easy* for white women to get diagnosed. It just means they face one less barrier, but still face significant barriers.
Tl;dr Dina is correct in perceiving her own race has been a significant barrier Joyce has not faced, and that perhaps some past drs who dismissed Dina *might* not have dismissed someone like Joyce (again, sexism in medicine is a big issue too so it’s hard to say), but she is wrong to take out that frustration ON Joyce for getting lucky and getting a referral because she happened to see a dr who had a specific extra awareness of autism in women.
Her resentment is realistic and I agree it’s easy to see where it’s coming from, but her frustration is misplaced, and irl I encourage people to remember that and be careful when making assumptions about just how “easy” someone else might have it.
And sorry one last thing: that “passing privilege” people keep referring to, that Dina seems to imply is the biggest difference between them, is also a barrier *Dina* has not faced. It’s quite possible that had Joyce not happened to see a dr with personal direct familiarity with autism in women, she’d NEVER get diagnosed/have any awareness at all that she might be autistic. And that does not mean she must not experience enough issues from it to warrant worrying about it. It just means that it’s easy for someone like her to fall through the cracks because her symptoms are just mild enough that they’re frequently dismissed as “odd quirks.”
Speaking as someone who, again, was diagnosed with multiple things very late, just because someone seems to be managing fine without diagnosis or support with a particular issue does not mean that issue is causing no problems/trauma. The fact that I did well in school was one of the many factors that delayed my ADHD diagnosis, but it hid significant amounts of trauma, stress, depression, anxiety, etc. I was not “fine.” I was miserable. And eventually fell apart/burnt out from 3 decades of pushing through, and it’s taking a long time to put the pieces back together. Appearances can be deceiving, and as a society we’d really benefit from not making so many assumptions about the apparent “ease” or “success” of others with no real knowledge of what they’re going through, based solely on how their experience looks from the outside.
I am going to tack on a reply here that for clarification: I don’t think this means such teasing by family and friends has done Joyce no harm. Being teased and mocked can make you insecure about stuff and this has been something my own family has done to me unintentionally.
But Joyce’s trauma very much stems from being raised in an authoritative cult, where being autistic would have shaped her experiences differently, but, still is not the source of her trauma.
And as we have seen so far, Becky and John both wrote off her food stuff with amusement and endearment as just typical Joyce quirks, they weren’t complete dicks about it, so I am not going to assume they were actively cruel and evil about for years actually when that hasn’t been shown to be the case.
I am not saying Dina is being completely 100% fair but she also isn’t being 100% unfair either that Joyce’s autism is more of a sidenote amongst a bunch of other stuff while people generally liked or loved her, while for Dina, it has been the main story and she has experienced a lot of social rejection for it.
Teasing isn’t the only way autism may have negatively affected Joyce though. It may just be the most obvious way, but this feels kind of like saying “because someone did well in school, their ADHD is just a side note that didn’t cause much trauma.”
The simple fact of having a ND brain and trying to interact with a NT world can be an incredible constant source of stress, even if someone outwardly appears to be coping “well.” The simple fact that Joyce has all these particularities suggests to me she experiences mental/emotional discomfort due to her autism beyond her friends teasing her.
Also I really disagree with the downplaying of the impact of “friendly teasing” here. Someone does not have to be intentionally cruel or evil in their teasing/mockery for it to leave lasting wounds. A constant reminder that your behavior is odd (behavior that you feel strongly compelled to do and that not doing causes you considerable distress) and mocking of it can chip away at a person’s confidence, trust, belief that their feelings/discomfort is valid, etc. it’s extremely invalidating, and I’d argue even MORESO when done by trusted friends because it tells you those closest to you, who know you best, don’t even take your discomfort seriously.
In fact it could be argued Joyce’s aversion to seeking medical care could be a facet related to this experience: she’s used to her issues being dismissed and mocked as “silly quirks” so may be less inclined to seek help even for more serious issues.
Okay, weighing in. Joyce isn’t wrong to want to find someone with similar experiences, or to ask Dina for that connection. Dina isn’t wrong for pointing out the differences in a tone of rejection. (She hasn’t explicitly rejected it yet, but it feels there implicitly.) Attempt made, rebuffed, move on.
I’m guessing Indiana University is big enough to have some sort of autism support group or just affiliation who ARE looking to connect and communicate… *googles* Yup, it does!
… Joyce is going to do a dumbing and not google it, isn’t she?
I forget was it ever made clear how much access/experience Joyce had with google (or the wider internet in general) prior to college? Was it a thing she could always use but self-selected what sites and searches she accessed to stay within her worldview, or was her access actively limited by her parents?
I feel like I remember her googling stuff a few times before but her sheltered-ness tells me she has in some way or another been limited in what she accessed. Which I feel like is hard to do with today’s internet, but maybe still possible with very carefully curated social media echo chambers and an aversion to googling anything “unacceptable” or “controversial.”
The sliding timescale probably makes this tricky too. Though I guess they were always solidly within gen z since it spans more than 10 years, and therefore would’ve grown up with pretty ubiquitous internet access (excluding scenarios where it was restricted in their own homes by parents).
Dina can’t bother Joyce for information even when Joyce is badly indisposed and butt into conversations she wasn’t part of, and then act offended when Joyce wants to talk about the thing Dina literally already inserted herself into a conversation about.
Joyce absolutely owes her an apology, and Dina absolutely does not owe her a conversation. But Dina’s been a real asshole lately.
So Joyce owes Dina an apology for what she said, but Dina can’t be upset about it. And Dina doesn’t owe Joyce a conversation, but she can’t say she doesn’t want a conversation.
I’m not even saying you’re wrong, but it seems to me that this is a “no right answers” situation.
It”s less Dina can’t be upset about it – she absolutely can – but it’s a bit unfair to expect Joyce to be a font of information at any moment and to act shocked that Joyce wants to talk about the thing Dina literally barged into a conversation about. Joyce has been an asshole, there’s no doubt, but Dina keeps involving herself and then acting shocked that Joyce considers her involved.
As an autistic person, I can identify with Dina’s position here. Somebody has decided that they and I should be social together, and unless I go along with these plans, which were made without me, then I’ll be regarded as a rude person. They, however, won’t be seen as rude for putting me in this position.
(Granted, I know that some people have different problems with Dina’s behavior. Regardless of whether I agree with those viewpoints, I wanna be clear that what I’m relating to is the specific thing I’m mentioning.)
For me this comic illustrates the difference between autism as empowerment vs autism as trauma and how isolating both can be. Sure I sympathise with Dina’s bitterness from her trauma and Joyce gaining power by being so confident about it but you gotta respect each other’s perspectives or nothing gets better.
I definitely relate to the downplaying the trauma that Dina feels though, wrong as it is sometimes
By the way, there are lots of people discussing the previous interaction between Dina and Joyce. Could anyone link it? Or just tell me when it was published, real-world-timewise?
Dina’s fully in her rights to say no to Joyce, but effectively telling Joyce that her autism just manifests as “smiling too much and eating chicken fingers” is… really mean. At the very least, it’s needlessly reductive to someone that’s just learning about and coming to terms with their own potential autism.
Willis went from broke this time with the character wars:
Central Character vs People’s Favorite!!
Bring the popcorn!!
Also: don’t forget this is called Dumbing of Age. Both Dina and Joyce are somehow right, but mostly they are plainly wrong. Only that’s not the thing, the thing is both are immensely relatable, as many commenters willingly attest.
As much as I bristle at the lateral ableism it conjures up, writing-wise I like this direction, assuming it is dealt with carefully. As in, if it’s going in the direction of showing both these characters are flawed in their own ways, Dina is not perfect either and has her own biases to confront.
If the writing is intended for us to be siding entirely with Dina here, then I’d take issue with it, but I don’t think that’s the intention, even though some commenters seem to be agreeing with her take on Joyce’s perceived lack of struggle. It’s a tricky topic to write about, but Willis has handled a lot of tricky topics surrounding disability well so far.
Being forced to repeat one of the first grade because they think you’re unable to be on the same level as others is terrible. For years I have wondered what my life would have been like if I hadn’t repeated first grade. I’m really sad for Dina and everything she has had to go through. I like Joyce, she’s a fantastic character and she really is doing everything she can to change. But if someone who I don’t know very much about, smiles almost constantly and who I also dislike from previous contacts (plus all the complications with Becky) tried to have a conversation with me about “Our shared issue,” I would avoid them too.
I wrote elsewhere that I had a similar reaction as Dina when my sibling got an ADHD diagnosis before me despite my struggles being more externalized and therefore to my perception more severe.
If my sibling had come to me to talk about our shared issues, I’m certain I would have reacted like Dina.
(Meanwhile since I was gifted and able to ace tests on no sleep or study, whereas she had to struggle and claw for an 80%, I’m equally certain my sibling would have had the same reaction to me approaching her!)
I’ll note the last part isn’t at all speculation – I did actually approach my sibling in university for advice on getting evaluated and her reaction was basically Dina’s. I think it’s a pretty human reaction to hearing that someone you’re jealous of shares your struggle somehow.
I probably narrowly avoided having to repeat grades just by being really good at learning words and reading a shit-ton of books “above” my “reading level”. That and my autism/ADHD manifested in ways that weren’t, shall we say, perfectly angelic and level-headed, so I was likely seen as a behavioral case and moved up despite consistently failing subjects like math and science. A few of my “special ed” classmates got held back and I was always confused by that because they were often mediocre learners at worst, just in need of some proper help and they’d have been getting better scores than me. Perhaps it’s not surprising that a lot of us didn’t end up finishing high school, even the ones who weren’t deliberately held back a year.
My sympathies. I somehow managed to do pretty well in school and I still don’t entirely understand it. I think it was a combo of being really good in a few subjects that interested me enough, and in the ones I struggled, I’d panic at my midterm grades and beg the teacher for extra credit options to bring my grade up, and got lucky enough that they were willing to help. So by my final grades alone it would’ve appeared I did fine in school, I was constantly underperforming and making up for it with excessive amounts of extra work and stress. It was…not pleasant.
Just about what you’d expect from the American Public School System.
That said, I’m starting to contemplate that it’s a waste of time to chase the respect of and glorify the systems and people that don’t really care about us, that look after their interests at our expense, that punish us for the way we are. That we should focus on our own self respect first and foremost.
I wanna just learn stuff on my own, at my own pace, in my own way, away from all the elitist toxic crap and one-size-fits-all mentality that’s thoroughly corrupted the school system.
And I have a feeling I’m not alone in this desire.
Dunno if this comment was for me or Taffy, but this definitely was not a public school specific issue, as I went to private schools and still struggled with a lack of support for these issues.
Whereas my kid is at a public school now and it’s so amazingly better, but some of that may be changing times/mental health awareness combined with the luck of a well-funded school district in a small town (so more resources available for all the kids).
Like for example, at my pricey private school, both my brother and I got zero support with the sorts of bullying and academic issues we struggled with. My kid’s public school on the other hand took swift and immediate action (including involving thr school counselor) when my kid was being bullied. The second she did poorly on ONE math test, she was immediately given free tutoring.
I dunno if we just won the school district lottery or if it’s gradually getting better in many places, but I’m happy to see this kind of improvement, even if I’m sure it doesn’t exist everywhere nationwide sadly.
Before I skipped a grade there was talks of holding me back a grade. Even as an adult, i feel that I have to constantly prove that I know more than the neurotypical people around me about a given subject simply to not be condescended to.
Ooof these feels: having to constantly prove you know more about a subject to avoid being condescended to.
Though in my case because I was not aware of my ND until fairly recently, it was more compensating for people’s reactions to my social awkwardness, shyness, inability to articulate clearly when speaking (I can write a lot but arguing points out loud is so hard for me) and being a small and blonde girl with a degree/career drawing cartoons, always added an extra layer of “you must not be very bright” when meeting new people (especially older men in STEM fields).
Totally with you on all this, resentment and everything. So sorry this happened to you, it’s just awful. 😭😭😭
Be it for grades or for not being “emotionally ready”, they always look for an excuse to hold us back, really the whole American school system is a toxic fucking cesspool that brings out the worse in everyone.
Joyce has been established as having really particular food demands (food not touching in a particular way, etc) and chicken fingers are one of the things that pass muster.
Somewhat off topic but thank you for mentioning this! I’d never heard of this and as a parent of a kid whose list of “acceptable foods” has been increasingly shrinking, this is really helpful to know about.
I was a kid like that. At my most restrictive I had 8 foods I’d eat and I would in fact starve rather than eat others, as my parents found out when they had me stay with a family friend for a few days and I didn’t eat the whole time I was there because my parents mentioned to her that (at the time before it ramped up) I would eat most things but not KD or celery and she took that as a challenge and fed me KD with celery in it. I kept gagging every time I tried to eat it and she kept serving it at every meal. I think I successfully snuck a banana and a couple of apples while she wasn’t looking but that was all I ate that whole week.
So my parents never made me stay with her again, but after that my safe foods got a lot more restrictive and I would have a hard nope response to being pushed to try stuff.
Anyway I did eventually get over it but before that it must’ve been a slog for my parents (even if at least most of my safe foods were relatively healthy: a particular brand of canned cream of mushroom soup, milk, broccoli WITH CHEESE, beef, chicken, chocolate, flat egg noodles and rice), but to their credit they did seem to recognize I wasn’t trying to be difficult with it, and if I tried a thing and it was a hard no they didn’t force it (they just got a bit too excited when I was trying new things and my brain translated that into pressure which made the anxiety way worse. I needed them to not care, which is hard when you’re excited your kid might be able to add eggs or bread to the acceptable list and all the options those open up. It was worst when I was 8, and slowly got better through preteen and teens. As an adult I’m actually a really adventurous eater, which literally nobody who knew my kid self would have ever anticipated. My sister who was the one with a normal approach to food is the adult who is super reluctant to try new things, weirdly enough.
My parents screwed up in many ways but their approach to my food thing was I think about as good as non experts could have managed on their own (this was the 90s, ARFID was not a thing really.
(&yes I identify broccoli with cheese as it’s own thing, kid me would not eat broccoli or cheese on their own but broccoli with cheese was acceptable if the cheese was medium aged cheddar.)
This is really useful information, thank you! I’d never considered the possibility that excitement/encouragement might add too much pressure so that’s something I’ll have to investigate to see if it’s playing a role with my kid.
I was a picky eater too when I was younger, and then a series of food allergies and other health problems forcing increased restriction kind of forced me to learn how to cook and forced me to broaden my diet because so many of my staple foods (cheese, all cheese) became off limits and I needed to find a way to like veggies. And then just age and time and such further expanded my palette and willingness to try new things (once you have a kid, you start having to just…eat what you can/what’s easy and available at times because it’s either that or go hungry when time and energy is limited).
So I have some personal experience with picky eating, but it has weirdly been not super helpful in dealing with my own kid since it manifests differently in her. I had a restrictive (and not always healthy) diet but would at least eat enough to get by. She’s currently in this phase though where she mostly just wants to eat a few snack foods, and literally nothing that is substantial enough to keep her full, so she ends up just asking for snacks all day long and it becomes a problem (homework keeps getting interrupted because she’s constantly hungry, it affects her focus in school because of hunger, etc). I’ve tried to be sensitive to it, as I understand to some degree what being picky is like, but she also needs to eat enough to at least function, and I don’t know how to help her. We’ve tried so many things. Even when we make her something she says she’ll eat, she’ll take like 2 bites and say she’s full but then be hungry again 30-60 min later, and this will continue all day, especially in the evening, up to and after bedtime.
She mostly just wants string cheese, goldfish crackers, fries, fruit, and those squeeze baby food pouches. I’ve tried putting together “meals” out of snacks (cheese and some healthier crackers, with a side of fruit or a squeeze pouch), and if that worked I’d be fine doing that for now, but she’s still not getting enough to eat. And while she can graze at home, it’s obviously a problem in school, or when she needs to sleep or focus on something but is *still* hungry.
It’s so odd because a few years ago she was so adventurous. She even loved broccoli, spicy salsa, etc. And then around 5 or 6 (she’s 7 now) just gradually started getting pickier until more and more foods were eliminated and only a few were left. It seems like a lot of kids go through this stage and I’m hoping it’s temporary, but oof it’s difficult at the moment. She’s a tall, fast-growing, high energy kid so she really can’t afford to slide by on a low calorie diet (whereas I was a tiny, non-athletic kid who did not grow very fast so I got away with picking at my food/eating small meals without it being a huge issue).
We probably need to just keep experimenting. It seems like her tastes change a lot and we have found foods that were previously eliminated can sometimes be reintroduced (she insisted she hated wheat bread for 2 years and now suddenly she likes it again as of yesterday).
Anyway sorry for the off-topic vent. I appreciate you sharing your story and input, it was really helpful! I feel like a lot of picky eating advice is either the bad “force your kid to eat, they won’t let themselves go hungry just to avoid foods they hate” advice which…feels cruel and clearly does not work because they WILL let themselves go hungry, or it’s advice directed at parents of autistic kids and I have not seen any signs of autism in her so far. Just a series of new eating restrictions. So she probably requires a different approach, and I still haven’t quite figured out why she is being so picky/what the issue is from her perspective (it’s tough to get kids to clearly articulate stuff like that at this age…often they don’t really know themselves).
First off, no? Not even remotely? Second, this makes zero sense so I have no idea what you’re even getting at. Musk is not exactly known for having a nuanced understanding of things like ableism or…any issue of discrimination really, so I’m not sure what he even has to do with this conversation?
Trying to insult people pointing out the issues with lateral ableism and dismissing the struggles of others based on surface observations of their life by claiming they like a man who…is frequently awful to multiple marginalized groups is wildly offensive and bizarre and just…a bad bad take.
Tbh I am still not entirely clear on the difference between autism and some other conditions. I have ADHD, but a lot of my symptoms ascribed to that are also symptoms of autism. Things attributed to autism more specifically that I don’t struggle with are apparently (or so I’ve been told) not requirements for an autism diagnosis. Almost every (possibly literally every) trait Joyce has exhibited that got her identified as autistic is a trait I have.
I know this is probably more a question for my therapist or psych than internet strangers but I’m curious to hear other people’s takes on it. What exactly is the key difference between all these conditions? I know many of them overlap and occur together, but I’ve been trying to figure out if I’m a person with ADHD whose condition shares symptoms with autism, or a person who may be autistic but subtly enough that I haven’t been diagnosed yet, a la Joyce until recently.
Doesn’t help that BOTH ADHD and autism have been linked with EDS, which I do have.
To be clear I definitely have ADHD. Wondering if it’s: having these symptoms WITH the addition of focus issues and some other non-autism stuff is the differentiating factor? Or if just so many people have both that symptoms of autism are mistakenly being attributed to ADHD?
And yeah ocd seems to be one of those things with symptoms that can manifest as a side effect of some other condition too.
Yeah, I was diagnosed with AS, mild OCD, and ADHD-PI about 25 years ago. (At least that’s the current terminology.) Nonverbal social cues were a deliberately learned process, I don’t notice the OCD so much, and I struggle with follow-through on projects. I’m also not constantly stimming, I don’t care if my foods get mixed together, and I’ve never been the “ball of energy bouncing off the walls” type.
There’s definitely overlap, but I’m not 100% on what goes where. That’s just my frame of reference.
What can I say, neurodivergence like many other natural things really defies neatness, lots of ND stripes can’t be sorted that easily into preconceived boxes like ADHD and autism, LOTS of overlap for sure.
Labels as a tool will only get you so far, untangling your unique combinations of neurodivergent stripes is a really individualized process that’s gonna look different for everyone. Believe me, I know!
The difference is what the purpose of the symptom is. Like if I’m not mistaken, in autism, stimming is a way of managing emotions or self soothing whereas in ADHD it’s a way to sort of occupy the mind for better focus. So while symptoms overlap a LOT between autism and ADHD, the source of those symptoms aren’t the same.
Essentially think of it like how a cough isn’t indicative of a single condition. Could be allergies, an infection, a virus, smoke, etc, but they’ll all be accompanied by coughing.
HM. I’m not sure that clarifies it for me because I do BOTH. I do a lot of stimming (my preferred method is twirling/rubbing some polyfill stuffing into tiny threads and balls with my fingers, as a kid in school I often doodled or played with a piece of clay). And for me it provides both focus and soothing anxiety.
Like it was crucial to helping me pay attention in school and still is at keeping me on track when I’m reading or doing other activities that require a lot of focus, but it’s also crucial if I’m doing a phone or video call (I find those very stressful) or otherwise anxious about something.
Unsure if that means I might actually fall into both categories, or if it can serve as emotional soothing for people with ADHD/anxiety too.
I think the differences between ADHD and autism are hard to parse in some cases but do still exist, it’s just hard to really articulate how the symptoms aren’t ‘the same’ even if outwardly they may look the same. Because a lot of cases look very different from each other and then some look the same or very similar.
There are some things that are ADHD only like how stimulants cause a calming effect for a majority (there is a minority where this is not the case I think because of course an exception for the exception exists, why would it not).
And being nonverbal is more an autism thing, like, at least 25% of kids with autism are nonverbal where they speak very little or not at all and sensory issues are way more common in autism, though not impossible in ADHD, in both extremes of being under or oversensitive to stuff. I also think that difficulty with generating varied facial expressions is more an autism thing?
I also think part of it is that some symptoms are MORE COMMON in one than the other or may exist for different reasons.
Neurodivergence is a little bit like Final Fantasy, I think. They’re all definitely under the same umbrella and there’s a lot of overlapping qualities shared around, but not all of them are directly connected and some of them branch away wildly from each other after the surface-level similarities. There’s also a lot of very pretty men and usually some kind of dragon.
I gotta stop reading the comments I swear. Some good takes today but also I’m looking forward to hopefully this storyline being an education on the harms of lateral ableism and why “passing privilege” is not really a thing when it comes to disability because wow, a lot of people need to learn that. As someone with invisible disability, who was also diagnosed very late and seemed “fine” my whole life to most people because I was good at hiding my struggles, this has been just an awesome reminder of how quick people are to invalidate those experiences if someone doesn’t LOOK like they’ve struggled sufficiently.
“This” being some of these comments, to be clear, not the comic itself. I mean yeah the comic is a reminder too, but a realistic one, and is at least fiction. Seeing those sentiments echoed by real people in the comments on the other hand…ouch.
Thank you. <3 I’m usually an “avoid the comments” person (for any and all things, not just this comic) but I occasionally drift into them when it’s a topic personally relevant to my own experiences, I guess out of some misguided hope of seeing people saying the things I always hoped they would about said topic.
And in an effort to be constructive, look, here are the sort of unspoken rules the disability communities I’ve participated in have, which may help people see where I’m coming from:
1. Don’t make assumptions about other people’s experiences (be it their history, the severity of their issues, or the validity of their condition) because none of us really knows exactly what other people go through, and most of us have had our experiences invalidated by others before, so we recognize that it’s not helpful to add to that or create divisions between members of the community. We already experience enough of this kind of ableism from outside the disability community.
2. Don’t play disability Olympics. Same reasons as the above. Competing over who has it worse doesn’t help anyone. It creates division and ostracizes people who may already be struggling to have their issues taken seriously because they don’t appear “disabled enough.” And contributes to them doubting the reality of their situation, which again, is something people with disability, especially with visible disability, get enough of already from the medical community and the rest of society. If someone feels their condition has negatively impacted their life, or caused them struggle in some way, they are valid, and should be accepted as such.
3. Seeking support and offering support are a key component of the disability community. We can’t always depend on those outside it, so we have to depend on each other. I’m very grateful that most of the people I’ve met in the community have been extremely supportive. We share tips, research, encourage each other to ask questions, or just offer support when someone is struggling.
4. But the caveat for the above is setting boundaries is also okay. No one is obligated to answer a question at any given time, be it due to personal privacy preference, lack of energy (or “spoons”, if you know that term), or any other reason. If someone says “I can’t right now,” we should respect that and not push.
These 4 “rules” (unspoken but communally enforced) have made the disability circles I’ve been a part of extremely welcoming, supportive, helpful places to interact with. I’ve seen some disability circles that don’t adhere to the above and it gets real messy real fast. It quickly devolves into a competition to prove who is the most valid, or the community becomes a tiny clique that is hostile to newcomers and people not already “in” feel obligated to participate in the ostracization of others, while frequently still feeling alone and like they can’t speak honestly about their issues. It becomes more about posturing and putting others down for a quick ego boost than an actual support group. It’s incredibly toxic.
I understand many commenters here are not part of the wider disability community, and even those who are may not have participated in more inclusive and supportive online circles before, but there is a whole lot of stomping all over many or all of the above, or people rigidly adhering to the boundary rule (4) while ignoring the rest. In my experience, true disability support and allyship only works effectively if you follow all the above and focus on empathy above all else.
I hope some folks who maybe haven’t spent much time thinking about these issues take the time to do so.
Thank you so much for sharing, I’ve been in communities that didn’t adhere to all 4 rules and I can say that what you said is pretty much accurate. A lot of fandom spaces are like that too, for whatever reason. A lot of poc spaces are actively hostile towards people mixed with white. Trans spaces are often hostile towards people who pass, people who don’t pass, people who don’t want surgery, people of color, and intersex people.
I want to say thank you for writing such thoughtful comments today. There’s a lot of black-and-white-no-nuances-of-gray-allowed thinking in these comments, and you’ve articulated a lot of what I would have wanted to say but couldn’t have said nearly as well, as well as a lot of things that I couldn’t have even thought of.
This is a fantastic example of the sort of linguistic nitpicking in an effort to assign the worst intent to others’ motives that I find utterly exhausting.
Maybe it was intentionally worded that way to imply something. Maybe it’s just how people talk and not every word out of someone’s mouth is a secret second message about how they really feel deep down.
Like, Joyce obviously has a history of boundary issues, but the way so many people are reacting to this as one of them tells me a lot of people here either have no experience with disability community support, or at least not with any GOOD ones.
Dina saying no is fine, completely fine, and Joyce should respect that. But asking someone who shares your condition if you can talk to them about it in the first places is also not unreasonable, and is in fact a very normal and common thing for people to do when they have just been told they may have a condition they know very little about and then learn someone they know may also have it.
I’m honestly unaware of any significant difference in meaning between “talk to” and “talk with” in this context. He’ll, to be honest, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone differentiate between the two. I get where you’re coming from, equating “talk to” with “talk at”, the implications being that Joyce is looking for Dina to be someone who would listen to what she says and then go “of course you’re right ” rather than actually engage. I just…don’t think it’s supported by thr context of the sentence or by my experience of the “to/with” divide.
When I was a kid, my parents had a friend called Steve who lived next door. Sometimes they’d happen to be outside at the same time and signal each other over for a short conversation, but they’d word it as “Hey, lemme talk atcha a minute!”. Not sure what the moral of this anecdote is, but you woke up the memory.
Half of the abuses Dina listed were things Joyce herself has done to her and some of y’all in these comments are mad that she’s unwilling to help💀
Idk between Dina and Sarah during this whole Joyce’s Autism Arc, the minute a Woman of Color in this comic stops existing for the purpose of bolstering up Joyce or another white woman character, even in the face of harm she personally has done to them, it seems to make some people VERY upset and those people could stand to be a bit more conscious and reflective to how quickly they take up arms when it happens
This is the same Dina that demanded information about Joyce’s childhood trauma while Joyce was sick and in pain, and invaded her personal space to an incredible degree while doing so. The same Dina that barged into Joyce’s conversation regarding her medical information to dump her own childhood trauma on Joyce, who had nothing to do with it and didn’t ask. Dina can’t demand information and emotional labor out of Joyce while acting pissy Joyce asks for the same thing. She doesn’t owe Joyce a conversation, but she does need to back way the hell off.
“Dina committed relatively minor transgressions in the past so she is obligated to show grace to someone who has repeatedly slung abuse at her” is a very bizarre take and I would encourage a bit more self-awareness for how much aggressiveness with which you speak about Dina’s actions because it doesn’t come off as a good look
Pointing out they both have a history of boundary issues is not saying Dina is “aggressive,” and it’s weird to claim only one of them has ever done stuff like this and only one of them is allowed to have boundaries.
They have both at various times throughout these interactions, been very un-tactful and possibly violated the others’ boundaries. Dina is well within her rights to set a boundary here, but you seem to be really trying to make people out to be saying something they are not actually saying, rather than listening to their actual words.
That is an extremely funny accusation to make at me because nowhere did I claim that Dina was being aggressive nor did I ever say that the transgressions were one-sided OR that Dina is the only one allowed to set boundaries
I’m not saying you said Dina was being aggressive. You implied CC was calling Dina aggressive or attributing aggression to her behavior. And you framed Dina’s behavior as “relatively mild transgressions” while Joyce’s as “repeatedly slung abuse.” When much of the behavior you’re referring to is, to me, relatively the same sort of thing.
They have both violated boundaries and been disrespectful of each other with varying degrees of severity. Someone pointing that out is not being aggressive about any one character.
Like, one doesn’t have to be the villain here. It’s okay for them to both have flaws and it should be okay to talk about those flaws without the assumption anyone who mentions them thinks the character is 100% bad or the other character is 100% good and taking it as far as making insinuations about things a person did not even say when many of us are speaking from DIRECT experience with disability or mental health issues, is very frustrating.
There is a useful, multifaceted, nuanced conversation to be had here about the harms of lateral ableism and sensitivity towards respecting people’s differing approaches with disability, and so much of that is just getting trampled by the desire people have to reduce a character or RL commenter’s actions to the worst possible assumed intent.
Relatively minor? She literally walked into Joyce’s room without permission and crawled onto her bed uninvited. When’s the last time you did that to an unfriendly acquaintance? Joyce and Dina are nowhere near close enough for that. And I think you may not have read my comment. Dina doesn’t need to show grace, she needs to stop engaging. The option to not antagonize Joyce while maintaining boundaries is readily available.
I’m a little upset that you’ve characterized my comments as aggressiveness. Pointing out that a character has also acted badly is not aggressiveness.
Yeah, “aggressive” was definitely unwarranted, but, hey, people seem to be going ham on that count in the comments today. Lan’s comments are all very bluntly phrased so I’m assuming it’s a “them-problem”
Repeatedly sling abuse is kind of a strong word for it. Joyce has said some insulting stuff that would also be triggering… So, like, verbal microaggressions. It’s also something she’s been working on.
I haven’t read through all the comments but I’ve skimmed most of them and I haven’t seen these people mad that dina is unwilling to help. I apologize if they are there and I missed them, but literally every critique of dina I have seen has been about the WAY she responded, implying Joyce’s experiences are less valid. Dina is completely within her rights to set a boundary.
What I find disturbing is the number of people in the comments echoing Dina’s sentiment that Joyce has no right to even ask a peer about their experiences, often coupled with the implication that it’s because Joyce isn’t “autistic enough” to have had any real negative experiences as a result of her own autism the way Dina has.
And frankly people could stand to be a bit more reflective on how quick they are to dismiss the validity of someone’s trauma when they don’t “look” like they’ve struggled enough.
…Now that I think about it, part of what Dina’s attributing to her experiences with autism have to be racism. Like, Joyce experiences discrimination for her neurotype. Source: read the comic. Dina experiences that discrimination, and racism, and the intersection between that ableism and racism: being compared to a child or a robot evokes anti-asian discrimination.
Finding a therapist experienced with disability is frankly a lot harder than finding a peer. And provides a totally different kind of support. Someone dealing with issues like this may also find a therapist beneficial, but community support is also very helpful in feeling less isolated and better learning how to deal with these things.
Whether Dina is the right person to seek out is another matter, but it’s very normal and totally valid to want peer support in this sort of scenario. I’d argue if the one person you know in person doesn’t want to talk about it, seeing support online is the next best step.
That said I think literally everyone in this comic needs therapy, but then again I’m of the opinion that most people IRL would benefit from therapy too. Therapy rocks (and should be more accessible and less stigmatized).
I definitely get that there’s a lot of work and risk involved with getting a therapist to talk to that is ND informed (or is even a member of the spectrum), and I certainly suggested it wouldn’t be the easy option. I just think it’s what would be best for Joyce. It’s what I want for her. I was diagnosed within the last year or two (time is hard to track). And I definitely did talk to my roommate who knows me well and is studying psychology about her thoughts, but it was the therapist that has really helped me. On so much more than diagnosis. Once diagnosed I started talking to my other autistic friends and I found 2 fb groups for autism that I like. I know not everyone has the same path, which is kind of the point of the strip today, but I stand by my comment above
Yeah I guess I was thinking more about my experiences with therapy in regards to physical disability (my therapist has 2 patients, including me, with the condition I have but is mostly learning about them from us) but I guess it does make sense they’d be more likely to help with conditions that tend to be more mental and social in nature. My therapist has been far more helpful and knowledgeable about ADHD.
I’m still fairly new to the ND side of disability (was only diagnosed with ADHD a few months ago) so a lot of my frame of reference still comes from the chronic illness/chronic pain/physical disability side of things which is obviously not quite the same.
That does make sense, my therapist doesn’t really touch the stuff that has to do with my fibromyalga or my ibs. She’s accommodating, but doesn’t really include it in our talks. Intersectionality in a therapist can make it harder than it already is. Like if you could take an alternative version of yourself that decided to become a therapist instead and talk to them, that’d be quite helpful, but unfortunately impossible. Not not worth trying for second best, but only if everything lines up. Finding a therapist is not set up to be easy for ND folks, no matter how rewarding it can be.
today’s Dina really seems like an entirely different character from the one from a decade ago, who was called a child and a [r-word] at the mall and didn’t react to being insulted. I would find it hard to believe that past Dina even knew the word infantilization.
And this is supposed to be less than six months after that incident. I know in real life it has been literal years but the story is supposed to be set over fall semester and the beginning of winter semester. The speed in which these characters are developing really streches the suspension of disbelief. One starts to get the feeling that characters behave like this because the author decided it was better or more interesting rather than natural development.
I was thinking about how, six months ago (in canon), Dina was learning from Amber how to express sympathy via light physical contact. Definitely feels like the autism was very much grandfathered in as the comic progressed
It might be a retcon as Willis’ own experiences have changed the perspective that might be written into the comic.
But even if it is I thibk it’s an easy one to paper over: one could argue that even if Dina doesn’t do much social performing, she may still unconsciously do *some* and her previously more “chill” behavior may have come from a place of unconscious insecurity. For possibly the first time in her life she has at least one peer who admires her for who she is, instead of infantilizes her, in Becky, and it has probably given her newfound confidence in a way that allows her to be more bold, speak her mind, set firm boundaries, stand up for herself, etc.
And while there has to be some suspension of disbelief because the speed at which the comic progresses vs. the speed at which real life progresses is gonna create some discrepancies in narrative tone, I’d argue it is possible for someone to change a lot in only 6 months. I’ve been there.
Especially in the context of being away from home and having very new experiences outside your familiar comfort zone. That tends to prompt a lot of change (either positive or negative) in most people. I like that Dina is getting some character growth. It’s very relatable for all of us who have been that quiet socially awkward pushover who just didn’t know we were ever allowed to voice our discomfort about how others treated or talked to us.
Tbh that makes Dina’s response here even more realistic imo. When people are processing the reality of disability/societal ableism, they often go through a period of engaging in some lateral ableism, as a sort of defensive reaction to having been subjected to such a lack of support themselves, especially prior to finding good support.
Not saying it’s a good thing to engage in that, to be clear, IRL when I see people doing that it’s always something I hope they will eventually unlearn (and many do once they start experiencing real genuine kind support) just that it’s not uncommon, many of us have been there, and it does seem like the natural progression for her character atm given the context.
Dina did understand. She may not have reacted to being directly insulted, but that’s because Raidah cut her friends off before they could get very far, and started condescending to Dina, which she understood fine. In the next strip, where the R slur gets dropped, Sarah pulls Dina away before Dina can react any more.
In her next appearance in that arc, she discusses not understanding people, but this seems to be her making conversation off of Sarah’s “I hate people”, rather than a direct reaction to what just happened.
I get called a r***** all the time and don’t always have a visible reaction. Doesn’t make the pain less real just because the damage isn’t outwardly shown.
Totally explicable difference, IMO. “Ah, yes, random jerks. Oh, are we leaving? Good, that’s easier than Being Angry at them.” vs “My partner’s bestie is being overly familiar with me regarding a topic about which I am sensitive. I’ve got to establish boundaries or she will not leave me alone.”
It’s cool for Dina to say no. You’re never owed a conversation with anyone. But I don’t think it’s cool for her to do so while simultaneously dismissing Joyce’s history and situation because they mean Joyce has suffered less.
But this is prolly the most interested I’ve ever been in Dina. She needed more flaws.
I think Dina is failing to make the connection that masking better doesn’t necessarily equal suffering less. She’s forgetting to account for the fact Joyce grew up in the same cult Becky did, and they both felt the same pressures to perform “normality”. The same cult that hit them as kids (a fact that Dina found alarming) and damn near got Becky and Joyce killed essentially for failing to perform that “normality”. Dina doesn’t have to do anything for Joyce but she’s being pretty dismissive of Joyce here, especially considering Dina knows a good deal of Joyce’s background via Becky.
To get too into the weeds, I think part of that could be because Dina saw, prior to *gestures broadly at state of comic*, that Joyce appeared to be very comfortable in her role within her fundie community. I wonder if Dina might say “well, it’s good that Joyce is rejecting these harmful beliefs, but they didn’t harm her.”
Which, as we know, isn’t true, which goes back to what folks say about masking (which, incidentally, is an aspect of neurodivergence I’m still learning a lot about, so these comments have been helpful in that regard)
But that’s the thing, Dina has front row seats to the fact it did harm her. She knows about the incidents with toedad, and about Joyce’s mom (through Becky at the very least). She knows what the cult is capable of, through firsthand accounts from Becky. She just hasn’t made the link that the same pressures to conform applied to Becky would have also been applied to Joyce. Or she’s dismissing it because it’s inconvient, but I think that’s a way too malicious reading of Dina’s characterization.
I think my point is more that Dina thinks that Joyce didn’t need that pressure to conform- that she was a perfectly content little godling until the events of the comic and thus didn’t suffer for her neurodivergence. Which I think is basically what you said but in a different way.
Yeah it’s really an excellent commentary on the dangers of assumptions. Honestly I think even JOYCE hasn’t fully unpacked all the ways her upbringing harmed her yet. That’s the sort of thing that often takes years.
In the same way a woman who laughs at “minor” assault or sexist jokes because she doesn’t want to “be difficult” but later learns that she was right to be upset or uncomfortable wasn’t “unharmed” by those past experiences just because she seemed fine with them, Joyce’s sunny disposition I think hid a lot of unrecognized trauma that is still unfolding (a fact I swear more of the comments seemed very sympathetic to when Joyce was being a cranky atheist but seem to have forgotten recently…)
In the same sense that people might not have figured Dina was at all bothered by the way she is often treated because she seemed so passive about it, when we see here it clearly bothered her deep down. It’s a good reminder not to judge people’s struggles from a surface glance.
Also to be clear because I’m worried this might be misinterpreted, I very intentionally put “minor” in quotes above to illustrate that it may have been something the woman perceived as minor, definitely not saying assault is ever minor. But we’re often conditioned to view experiences that are a type of assault as not that (a classmate groping you for “laughs”, for example…that’s something that can take a long time to process as actually violating, especially for those of us whose teen years were long long before the metoo era).
Said this in my comment above but yeah it sucks, but it is SUPER realistic given the context of her situation.
Often happens when people are first diagnosed with something in an effort to hang on to some abled privilege (putting down other disabled people often allows a disabled person to still connect with the ableists around them) but as Dina has obviously known/suspected her autism for a while, that’s not the reason here. But she might be finally developing more awareness of just how much ableism (as well as racial discrimination in healthcare and society) has affected her experience as an autistic person and I know that can also foster a degree of resentment towards those perceived as having it “easier.”
Dina is in that uncomfortable position of knowing she is not like everyone else, but not having the validation of a diagnosis, and presumably lacking any kind of supportive autism community, and that’s a sucky place to be. Her anger, though misdirected, is valid, and very reflective of things I have seen and experienced IRL.
Honestly if they were real people what I’d suggest is that they both seek out broader community, like online or something. A good supportive disability community can be super empowering and validating and likely would provide both of them more help than they could for each other atm as two sort of isolated people with somewhat different experiences with the same condition.
She can’t be diagnosed with ARFID. ARFID is a diagnosis of exclusion. One of the requirements is that there are not any other developmental, neurological, or psychological diagnosis that could explain the food related behaviors. The other is that the person must be under 6 years old.
This means that she needs to be tested for OCD, Anxiety, ASD, ADHD, etc. before they would consider ARFID even if she was 6 years old.
I asked about ARFID for my daughter (who is now 7, but was 5 at the time) and she didn’t qualify because they were certain that she would test for ADHD when she was 6 (the cutoff for diagnosis of that disorder). Her eating is even more disordered than Joyce’s. Chicken fingers are not always accepted, infact they must be one specific brand and/or one specific breading type (just as an example) which means I need to see them before they can be ordered at a restaurant. Rejection happens even when they fit the normal criteria about half the time.
She did eventually get a diagnosis for both ADHD and Anxiety (GAD), which would have invalidated an ARFID diagnosis as soon as they were received anyway.
We need to start a support group for “DOA reading parents who are currently in the midst of dealing with a child’s severe food restrictions.” There seem to be several of us here lol.
😮 Oh! I am not very conversant with memes, so I didn’t even get the reference the first time around.
It all makes sense now, Willis using this meme as a comical framing device to summarize both the pre-existing difficulties between both Joyce and Dina and the fact that they’re NOT gonna automatically relate better on account of their autism.
Dina can see that this is not the start of a different relationship but a transaction. Joyce wants something from Dina. It would have been better to establish an actual relationship from which information and shared experiences could flow. This continues to treat Dina as an object rather than a person. Be better Joyce.
Dina did the exact same thing to Joyce when she walked into Joyce’s room to ask about her being hit as a kid, while Joyce was sick and not interested in company let alone willing to have the conversation.
I’m thinking Joyce should start an Autism spectrum support/discussion/study group. With free pizza sponsored by Galasso. Unless the school already has one. . .
The only downside I can see for Joyce there is that Walky would show up at every single session, just to score some free pizza, and her brain would eventually explode.
Dina is perfectly justified in saying no but I feel like she hasn’t connected that most of the hark Becky’s upbringing has caused Becky can also be applied to Joyce
I also find the infantilized comment funny considering how half the cast treats Joyce
Ultimately a simple “no” would have sufficed rather then being unnecessarily dismissive toward Joyce’s experiences
Yeah it definitely seems to be a bit of an ironic blind spot for her. An understandable one I think, considering her and Joyce’s sticky interactions in the past, they’ve both been pretty dismissive/tactless to each other in various ways.
I’ve said it a few times above but I’m cautiously hopeful to see the topic of lateral ableism respectfully explored in this storyline. It’s a very real problem. And one, judging by a lot of these comments, a lot of people could use more understanding above. Dina engaging in it doesn’t make her a bad person, but it is a sucky way to treat someone, especially someone who shares your diagnosis.
But it’s a very realistic response from her and the ease with which we can slip into it contributes to the issues of societal ableism overall. People who are not part of the disability community will often point to examples of lateral ableism (I.e. disabled people being ableist to other disabled people, such as dismissing or invalidating their experiences) to justify their own ableism (like “see, this disabled person thinks this way too, so it’s fine that I do!”)
It’s a difficult topic to discuss, emotions get heated, people who have no experience with disability don’t always have the context to properly understand its harms, and it deals with a lot of really intrinsic biases we have in society about a lot of different aspects of human behavior and experience. It’s a big topic, and I won’t deny some of the discussion here has been tough for me as someone who has personal experience with this issue, but Willis’ willingness to tackle tricky topics like this is one of the reasons I enjoy this comic so much.
Agreed. While I fully understand and sympathize with Dina’s resentment(?), that doesn’t mean that Joyce’s new worries and concerns suddenly become irrelevant. I’m reminded of how some people with minor disabilities or health issues always try to shrug off their problems or stress because “other people have it worse”. Yes, that’s true, but it’s not a contest here. Just because you have a broken finger and another guy has a broken femur doesn’t mean that your finger doesn’t need medical attention.
Yup, as a person living with pretty significant daily chronic pain, I’ve had well-meaning friends do that. Apologize for complaining about comparatively “minor” or temporary medical issues to me because I have it “so much worse,” and I honestly hate that efforts towards disability allyship have gotten twisted to make people feel this way.
I always tell these friends that my experiences do not mean that they can never feel upset or frustrated or complain about their own discomfort, no matter how mild or temporary.
So much of ableism is rooted in the idea that people should never complain about physical discomfort, that disabled people should be stoic and inspirational at all times, and that not being this way, expressing any real vulnerability or unhappiness, is somehow weakness or whining. It’s also heavily rooted in the idea that you have to meet a minimum level of obviously visibly disabled before you deserve support/help/sympathy/validation.
So to me, and to most of the disabled (particularly invisibly disabled) people I know, that kind of gatekeeping or judging who has it worse and limiting validity of complains based on that hierarchy, is self-defeating and contributes to the very ableism we are trying to fight.
Obviously it’s still important for people to try to understand what struggles others might experience that they might not. It’s a complex, nuanced issue, but in general I’m not a fan of dismissing someone’s complaint of discomfort or struggle with a disability on the sole basis their struggle *seems* easier, and find that kind of dismissal does not make them take other people’s more serious issues more seriously…it just perpetuates the idea that complaints people have about physical or mental struggles are things we can dismiss based on our own perceptions of someone else’s experiences.
Hm, can’t say I entirely know what you’re getting at. I do know discomfort after eating can cause food aversions (have a number of food allergies and intolerances myself that took a while to diagnose and prior to that my pickiness was seen as a “weird difficult quirk”) but people can also have food aversions without being allergic to said foods. It’s a pretty common symptom of autism from what I understand.
The way Joyce describes her food aversions seems more psychological than physical to me: rules about foods not touching, describing negative aesthetic reactions to various combinations, shapes, or textures, rather than “I don’t feel well when I eat this.”
Unless I am not remembering a very specific reaction to oatmeal. Did we see Joyce eat oatmeal and react physically? Or was it a texture thing (a lot of people are oatmeal adverse because it’s often made in a way that makes it resemble snot…I don’t like it when I don’t make it myself for the same reason).
That’s not what emotional labor is. Emotional labor refers to the non-enumerated, unpaid and uncompensated labor that mostly women are expected to perform in the workplace that is not expected, mostly, of men.
The use of “emotional labor” to describe any kind of demanding or unpleasant social interaction is a misuse of the term. This misuse is frequently deployed by disingenuous jerks in order to justify their antisocial behavior. Considering someone else’s feelings is not “emotional labor”, it’s prosocial behavior and we shouldn’t be abusing jargon as an excuse to not do it.
If you don’t wanna consider someone’s feelings for whatever reason (they’re a huge jerk, or abusive to you) say it with your whole chest and stand by it. Hiding behind jargon is cloying and insincere.
Anyway this is a pretty deft case of lateral ableism and crab-bucket infighting and anyone picking a “side” here is not engaging their media literacy muscles.
I mean, it sounds like it would take effort to, and there’s other things that I could be doing.
People who don’t acknowledge that friendships require emotional labor often take the emotional labor provided to them for granted, though. It leads to lopsided friendships, and shallow, transient connections. I don’t think you’re really right here!
Basically it implies a very inequal sort of dynamic: demanding someone do the work for you, be it to educate you about something or take care of tasks for you, all while setting your own needs/comfort aside in a way that is generally unfair or harmful, and generally involves someone with privilege making these demands of someone without that same privilege.
That’s why people are taking issue with the use of the phrase in this interaction. It doesn’t really apply here, and it kind of implies/evokes the idea that Joyce is demanding that someone marginalized do the extra work of educating her on the experience of that marginalization from the position of someone *outside* that group, which is…very invalidating of the fact that she too is autistic.
No one is saying friendships or social interaction in general don’t require emotional effort. Obviously they do, and Dina has every right to not want to engage in that effort right now. But calling it “emotional labor” is very loaded and just not applicable to the fairly normal and not inherently toxic social interaction of someone with a condition seeking support from someone else with the same condition.
Oof sorry phrased that second paragraph badly. It should read:
demanding someone do the work for you, be it to educate you about something or take care of tasks for you, all while setting *THEIR* own needs/comfort aside in a way that is generally unfair or harmful, and generally involves someone with privilege making these demands of someone without that same privilege.
I had a call center gig that would be a good example. One element of my job was to mirror the emotions of the customer a de-escalation task meaning when I answer I need to reflect the same urgency/sadness/anger as the customer but then move them towards positive emotions as either a sales or retention task (I handled cancellation/sales/billing).
It led to severe mental dysfunction after a while as I had no emotional bandwidth for myself at the end of the day and often felt drained. They removed aftercall (a setting that makes it so I’m not immediatly in another call) during the pandemic. Soon I was going home continuing conversations that were incomplete in my mind to the walls of my appartment.
But yeah emotional labor is real and it’s new enough in concept that we’re still learning what it can actually do (like how we learned repetitive motion injury from factories).
I keep seeing this shared and still haven’t seen these people who think Joyce can do no wrong. Except maybe one or two comments at most?
I’m seeing a lot of people who acknowledge Joyce has been problematic and that it’s fair for Dina to set boundaries, but that it also isn’t inherently wrong for Joyce to try to ask about this (and that it is wrong for Dina to make assumptions about Joyce’s experiences in such a dismissive way). And I am also seeing a lot of comments from people entirely defending Dina *responding* to the above takes as if they had suggested Joyce can do no wrong. :/
Yeah, the closest I’ve actually seen to this fabled “X can do no wrong” is Fart Captor being the fandom’s biggest Becky fan, and that’s always come across as lighthearted to me.
Dina sees the coddled fundie girl who’s a fussy eater and smiles a lot. She doesn’t see the person who, a couple of hours ago, was angry about everyone treating her like a child, denying her agency, and redecorating her butthole.
They are not the same. But they are more alike than Dina knows.
I do think it’s at least partially a matter of perception. If Dina ain’t there for it and Joyce don’t tell her about it, how can she know? And if she don’t know, how can we hold her accountable for that? How can anyone?
We can’t hold people accountable for not knowing things they could not know for sure, but we can hold people accountable for making assumptions based on biases about what struggle looks like (I.e. the idea that anyone who isn’t very visibly struggling must not experience any significant struggle).
It’s not expecting people to be psychic, but rather encouraging caution when it comes to making assumptions about other people’s experiences.
Yeah, that’s the fun/slightly maddening part. Like, Dina’s assessment of Joyce is factually wrong. (Note that being factually wrong is different as being morally wrong — Dina’s flawed in her mistaken assessment, but she’s not a bad person for it.) But we only know it’s factually inaccurate through the quasi-omnipotent lens of the reader. Dina only interacts with Joyce in certain limited ways, and doesn’t have much of a choice but to sraw her opinions based on what she does see, rather than what she doesn’t know anything about.
Doesn’t mean she’s suddenly right, but it’s so frustratingly understandable and reasonable I can’t help but love it even as I want to kick down the fourth wall and shout “It’s more complicated than that!” at her.
Joyce tachnically has a point, but it’s also still Dina’s decision to not wanna talk about it with her, and Joyce has gotta respect that. Even if Dina’s being a dick about it.
I’m with Dina on this one even though my experiences are more than half a century behind me. You cannot know or even imagine the things I went through as a child.
I won’t talk about who is right or not in my comment, if Dina or Joyce.
It’s a personal thing I have, after reading the today page.
One of hardest feelings I had in my life is the impossibility of reach someone. Me, trying to approach to some person. I came with a nice gesture, or totally happy to this person.
Or I can calmly start explain all your points, or I can came objectively to they, asserting my points aggressivily.
No, nothing is enough to reach this person. I have hurt they so badly, to a point this person can not trust me anymore. Or their person doesn’t believe in my efforts or services anymore, and all their time with me is focused to get rid of me as soon as possible.
This is the most frustating feeling I’ve felt and I’m feeling in my entire life, the power to reach into people.
If it’s any help Amos, your kind words to me earlier, when I was stressed about some of the comments, really helped me feel a bit better.
I sympathize, we all make mistakes, put our foot in our mouth, learn and grow and realize past beliefs or behaviors might have been problematic, and it’s really hard when nothing you do in the present seems to make up for how a person feels about you based on past interactions.
One of the most difficult things I’ve had to learn is that we will not always get along with everyone. Sometimes, no matter what you do or how hard you try, some people will not like you. They may have real justification for feeling that way, they may not, but when a person is clearly unreceptive to changing their position on how they feel about you, sometimes the best option is to just back off, give them the space they want, and accept that relationship is a lost cause. It sucks, it hurts, it’s not easy at all, but it’s a thing that sometimes has to happen.
I do think it gets a bit easier with time and practice. This used to be completely impossible for me, but now I’m more able to just accept it and move on eventually. But it never gets completely easy, at least it hasn’t for me. I do sometimes envy those who seem unaffected by conflict or clashes with others.
In any case, whatever the context behind this comment, know that today you made at least one person, a person who does not know you, feel better with only a few words, and that’s something worth feeling good about. <3
We did! When we found out Joshua is not Joshua, but Jocelyne. I’m sure there’s others, but that was the one I remembered. We almost hit 1000 when Joyce and her eldest brother who’s name I won’t bother remembering were arguing at a restaurant.
Dina is still mad at Joyce for calling her a robot girl, which happened recently in the comic. Becky when she finds out about this conflict will probably make them get along, which may involve getting them both on the same page when it comes to things that Becky knows about each of them that they don’t know about each other. Without as many false assumptions about each other, and with proper apologies, theyll get along, probably.
Remember, Becky is still resentful over Joyce abandoning their faith (even though their takeaways were vastly different). She could very well say something disparaging about atheists that ticks Dina off. By trying to being the two people she cares about most together, she could alienate them both. It’s a fine line. A very fine line. (Split decision.)
Tbh I both forgot about that argument and forgot just how recently it was in comic time once I realized it happened. That definitely adds an extra layer to Dina’s ire I’m sure. If this was Smarting of Age, she’d outright tell Joyce that was a hurtful ableist statement within the context of Dina’s autism, and that Joyce really needs to apologize and consider her words more carefully in the future, and Joyce would apologize and realize with horror how she has been engaging in ableism against someone with the same condition as herself, and how extra shitty that is.
But it is not Smarting of Age, as The Wellerman said here! And we gotta have some drama before we have a chance of them getting to that point. 😉
If Becky, Dina and Joyce are all together by themselves any time soon, any other discussion on any other topic(s) will be derailed by Becky subtly hinting that she and Dina TOTALLY FUCKED YO, so that Becky can have the satisfaction of defending herself against Joyce’s disapproval.
(I am personally very invested in that interaction not going the way Becky, consciously or not, wants and expects it to go.)
The funniest outcome of that would be Joyce brushing it off, like “Oh, that’s what y’all were keeping from me? That’s it?” and then Becky looking deflated.
Something like that would be funny, yes. I’d settle for funny, but I’d rather see Joyce hurt – not angry, but genuinely hurt – and Becky forced to confront and acknowledge how she’s treated her “best friend” for… well, a while now.
I was gonna read all the comments like usual but then i realized i was like a hundred in and still not near half way so fuck that
Everyone’s saying variations of the same thing for 600 comments, jesus
Yeah, even if there is a chance they will eventually connect, being in the same neurodivergent category is hardly a solid foundation for their friendship. 😐
And from an alternative perspective, Dina, you had parents who cared enough about you to repeatedly try and seek out psychological help and try to provide you with opportunities to improve, as well as generally supporting you learning about the world as it is, while Joyce has a whipped father and harpy of a mother who would oppose any attempts by her to become better, and basically brainwashed her from birth.
What if each time Character Wars puts the comments at 666, Willis draw a version of the iconic Joyce-Sal fight, only with the characters currently at war in the comments?
“But, (insert appropriate character here), you never changed … and I have”
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my uncle’s gf, “HEY YOU WOULD TOTALLY LIKE KALIFORNIA”
me (unsaid): “wtf this movie is a piece of shit EVEN WITH DUCHOVNY AND PITT”
gf: “WASN’T THAT GREAT???”
Joyce: *EFF YEAH BONDING THROUGH EXTREMELY TENUOUS CONNECTION ONLY I CAN PERCEIVE*
It’s ridiculous how that movie was in production before he got The X-Files.
Joyce, you should definitely talk to someone who is also autistic about this if it feels like something that could be helpful.
I SERIOUSLY don’t think Dina should be that person right now
Someone who isn’t being a shit.
I think Dina’s position is pretty understandable
Also correct. Joyce absolutely should speak to someone, but there are differences in kind and degree here that reasonably make Dina… not super capable of helping without hurting herself. And despite Dine being blunt about it, that would not be cool.
THIS.
We autistics are not only different from neurotypicals, but also each other, hence, neuro-diversity.
For sure Dina has a thorough understanding of neurodivergence and how it works (to say the least), and did a really good job of informing Joyce that they are NOT going to automatically get along better on account of their autism.
I don’t think that’s what Joyce was going for. I think Joyce is trying to learn by asking someone who is actually living with the issue. The degree to which they’re affected is very different, but trying to talk to the only person you know with actual experience is reasonable. Dina isn’t a perfect fit,, but she’s the closest available. That said, Dina has no obligation to help her.
First of all, “degree” seems to imply that the autism experience exists on a single dimension, which it clearly doesn’t. Neurodiversity, including the stripes that fall into the autism category, have many dimensions to how they effect each other in individuals, which is why I find terms like “spectrum” really misleading.
Dina understands that Joyce never put that much effort into her relationship with her, and is evidently only putting in that effort now because she assumes it’s gonna be easier to bond on account that they’re both autistic.
I totally get Dina’s response here, I also hate these kinds of hurtful assumptions, especially when made by someone I would barely call my friend.
Joyce is asking for help with a problem she has even having trouble accepting about herself, but which would also help her be infinitely more aware of her issues and understand more about herself. If she is also trying to befriend Dina, that is not a problem, that is a natural part of the human existence.
As an autistic who didn’t discover what I was until I was 18, I can flat out tell you that Dina is a fucking conga right now for assuming that Joyce didn’t suffer in ignorance. Being labeled, despite the preconceptions it brings, at least also brings understanding. I went through an extremely troubled youth without ever knowing why I was different and failing to grasp things. Joyce herself was literally brainwashed, and more susceptible to it then most, because of her issues.
Dina is being a bongo, which is sad to see coming from a character that I believe tends to be fairly logical, but the signs were always kind of there that she can be extremely callous and cruel if someone has earned her disfavor.
I think people are forgeting who the person who called Dina a robot is. And I’m pretty sure she’s one of the people who’s infantalised her in the past too. Joyce is fucking out of line and there’s no reason to be insulting Dina here.
Ditto on the Dina doesn’t need to help someone who called her a robot. Seriously.
Joyce, go find an online forum or something.
I think Marilius’ critique of Dina here is a bit excessively harsh, though I very much understand the emotions behind it. Dina IS being problematic in dismissing Joyce’s experience. It’s a form of lateral ableism, and unfortunately a very common one. This sort of attitude doesn’t help the disability community as a whole, it only furthers stigma and bias that makes it difficult for people with less obvious struggles to be believed/taken seriously, and it especially hurts when it comes from within your own community.
That said, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to judge her as callous and cruel as a whole because of this response. I don’t think Dina’s response is intended to come from a place of apathy or cruelty, but from frustration and resentment. She is a person who has very obviously struggled with how her autism affects most aspects of her life, and has not received any external support (beyond, presumably, that of her awesome parents). That is a very insulating and frustrating thing. It does not *justify* her dismissal of Joyce’s experience here, but it does explain it. I don’t think she would respond the same way if she had a proper support system. In my experience, this kind of resentful lateral ableism is very common among disabled people who feel like they have no recourse, no support, and don’t see their situation changing any time soon despite their best efforts. Dina’s anger is very justified, even if she is misdirecting it and placing it unfairly onto joyce.
That said, I also disagree with the comments that Joyce is out of line for simply asking Dina if she can talk to her about autism. Dina previously inserted her own experience into Joyce’s convo about her referral so it’s not unreasonable for someone to take that as an indicator that person is willing to talk about this issue further.
Additionally Billy/Jennifer told Joyce to do this, and Dina is currently the only person Joyce knows who also likely has autism. Expecting Joyce, who has had a lot of new info dumped on her pretty fast, and who grew up fairly sheltered and without much experience seeking support outside her church community, to know she can go online to find support, is a bit unrealistic.
Joyce and Dina have both been tactless with each other in the past. Dina herself has shown up (while Joyce was not feeling well) to question her pretty critically and intensely about her upbringing, which might also be arguably a violation of boundaries for some people. They’ve never had a frank discussion about their issues with each other. Joyce has been rude and dismissive to Dina about her social issues, Dina has been rude and condescending to Joyce about her religious upbringing. Neither character is perfect. Both have a lot to learn.
Dina is 100% within her rights to set a boundary here. She is by no means obligated to have this conversation with Joyce. But I also can’t blame Joyce for not automatically knowing Dina wouldn’t want to talk about this and I think it’s unfair to say it’s out of line for her to just ask the question. If she kept pushing after Dina said no, that would be out of line (and who knows maybe she will, maybe she won’t) but just asking the one person she knows with autism if they can talk about their likely shared diagnosis is a very normal thing to do.
Autogatos: I agree.
Also speaking as an Autist here, and directly responding to The Wellerman, since the comment alignment format here likely won’t make that clear.
When others are talking about degree, or using the term spectrum, they aren’t discounting the many and varied factors that make all of us on the spectrum different, they are merely referencing a specific one, and arguably the most objective, easily “measured” one. Our level of functioning in society. The two “ends” of the spectrum are low-functioning and high-functioning, and *because* there’s such a large number of ways that each of our cases are different, that’s kind of the only way we *can* be categorized. It’s also, from the perspective of the neurotypical, the most important descriptor that distinguishes us, because it determines how much help we might require (remember, the people to coin this terminology were *doctors*, so they mostly care about what needs to be done to help).
Joyce may be on the spectrum, but she’s on the *high* functioning end, while Dina, while not *especially* low-functioning, is quite clearly lower on that spectrum, and as such it is incredibly frustrating that someone who, from Dina’s perspective, is so incredibly privileged as to be sufficiently high-functioning that nobody noticed until now is coming to *her* for help. The severity is the *root* of her issue here, so it’s only natural that that is the difference that is largely in discussion here.
Thank you.
I get what you’re trying to say, but there’s something really off to me about referring to Dina as being “lower functioning” than Joyce. Or anyone for that matter.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/hypotheses/
Personally I REALLY hate the high-functioning/low-functioning concept, and many autistic people and activists do as well. Support needs differ WILDLY, and people can be what would be considered ‘high-functioning’ in some areas and ‘low-functioning’ in others simultaneously. We usually say that it’s a spectrum in that there’s such a wide range of traits associated with being autistic (often with associated traits at either extreme of an option – sensory seeking vs aversion, or low empathy and hyperempathy both being considered ‘autistic traits’,) and we all have different toppings from the ice cream buffet of Autism Stuff. Some of us have higher support needs than others, some of us can mask better, but those two things can coexist simultaneously, we’re not “less autistic” if we can mask.
The saying I’ve heard on a few occasions is that “high-functioning” is frequently a term used to deny support (because you don’t REALLY need that accommodation,) where “low-functioning” is used to deny agency (because you can’t POSSIBLY advocate for yourself or hold opinions if you’re nonspeaking, or have an intellectual disability, or need help with tasks of daily living.) Both are significant problems!
Like, it is totally possible to be a nonspeaking autistic who lives independently and can hold a job, or to be capable of masking in public but unable to live independently. There are autistic activists who need full-time aid to help them do things like use the bathroom, but are still perfectly capable of expressing their needs. Autistics with intellectual disabilities who, again, are making themselves heard and can be less heavily impacted in another sphere (and the greater community is not always great about making sure they’ve got a place at the table, too.) We’re all still equal parts autistic as each other, because autism cannot be measured, it simply Is A Thing We Are.
That said, I DO think Dina and Joyce both might be thinking of this under the “more or less autistic” model, because they’re both teenagers who maybe haven’t read up as much on that sort of theory as I, an autistic whose special interests INCLUDE autism, have. Which is an understandable thing for both fictional characters and humans, because it’s not the way current discussions tend to frame things outside our community, but that’s why I’m willing to wade into this 500-something comment section and go into Education Mode. For future reference: A whole lot of us don’t like that because it is not just used to harm us, it is also wildly reductive and wrong! And now you know.
Thank you, Regs. This was very much needed. 🥲
the comments here seriously need those little lines like tumblr has
Responding to Regalli (I really wish I could just
click respond to whoever I wanted) – I agree, I read
a post on tumblr about how the high/low functioning label
is a lose-lose situation. I think it had recommended just
labelling the amount of support that someone with autism
needs instead (needs aid, needs nonverbal support,
needs to be removed from overwhelming stimuli, etc.).
Unfortunately, that doesn’t come with a convenient short-hand
label, but that way it doesn’t lead to those choices of losing
support or losing autonomy.
Also, I never liked the stigma that comes with the low functioning
term either, or how some autistic people I read about used
those terms to be condescending, e.g. “I’m not like
those autistics, I’m high functioning.”
Responding to Autogatos (really would like to
respond directly still) – I fully agree with your assessment.
Dina is being harsh, but she is still upset with how easily
it was for Joyce to be diagnosed, while she
struggled for diagnosis (and still hasn’t received it). And while
it may not be nice for Dina to not offer conversation with Joyce about
this at this time, she’s well within her rights not to.
I also agree with you that Joyce wasn’t crossing a line or anything
to want to talk with Dina about this. They have both been dismissive
of each other in the past (Joyce regarding her upbringing and beliefs,
Dina for her behaviors and acceptance of evolution), but they still seem
to be on talking terms to me. Acquaintance-level at least, with more
knowledge of each other possibly due to close living spaces.
So in short, your takes are hot and your frontal lobes are huge 😛
Having spent some time on autism forums, I’ve noticed we are pretty damned good at annoying each other.
BTW for the record I totally called this months ago:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/prettysolidevidence/#comment-1639246
I would ask anyone who is jumping on the DINA IS BENG SUCH AN ASS bandwagon to please imagine it this way:
An unpleasant rival or bully from your own past has just gotten up in your grill all “get this man we have the SAME PROBLEM! We can BOND over this! Isn’t that GREAT??? We’re the same!”
This person isn’t a friend. You kind of hate them. You want them to go away. They have repeatedly mistreated you.
Are you really gonna be all eager to open up to them? Be honest.
Dina’s not remotely being an ass and people are being overdramatic about this. You nailed their dynamic perfectly.
Exactly! Their lived experiences aren’t relatable.
Joyce would be better off talking with Joe, or maybe an actual psychologist instead of just taking a general practitioner’s hunch as gospel.
Sure, but lets be realistic here. Even with referral in hand, talking to an actual psychologist is probably months away. Doesn’t solve her problems now.
Talking to Joe might be good, but it’s not a conversation Joe’s going to be at all comfortable with. Talking to Dina was actually a good idea and one suggested to her earlier. It obviously fell through.
Maybe not. I might be stretching a bit here, but Joyce even has the upper hand in talking to a psychologist. Since she was involved in the kidnapping incident AND has a referral, the school could front line her to a psychologist ASAP. While Dina wouldn’t have that advantage, as she wasn’t as directly involved in the incident as Joyce was.
Well at least Joyce didn’t wait until Dina was sick and in pain to literally sit on her and demand Dina satisfy her curiosity. What Joyce said to Dina then was rude but Dina richly deserved a tell-off and is lucky Joyce was too sick to violently toss her off the top bunk or punch her in the face.
It’s good Dina is honest here, but she also needs to stop eves-dropping on Joyce, following her around in hopes of seeing some juicy drama, inserting herself into Joyce’s private and fraught conversations, and breaking into her room. No wonder Joyce thought Dina would talk to her.
how does literally everyone not notice that dina got off her. dina was literally doing the social action that she thought joyce wanted- its not her fault joyce isnt communicating to people that she’s changed and doesn’t want those things anymore.
I don’t think Dina was ever actually sitting on Joyce, either. It looked more like she was hovering over her; arms on either side of Joyce’s body, and possibly legs on either side of Joyce, too, by the looks of some of the panels (we don’t ever get a good look at the composition).
> how does literally everyone not notice that dina got off her.
Eventually. Joyce said that she was in pain and asked/told Dina to get off her, and Dina’s reply was “not until you answer my question.” Satisfying her curiosity was more important than Joyce’s discomfort or her request.
dang youre like really stuck on dina sitting on joyce, huh. i hope you expend all that energy for the many, many times joyce did the exact same thing dina did to her to other people.
Uh, assault is never good.
Rude? It’s a slur
Don’t you know? People only deserve not to get called slurs (and misgendered, while I’m on this) when you’re not personally irritated with them.
I’d mark this with /s, but most people here are smart enough not to need it.
A think that I think keeps getting left out of this convo is: I’m not sure Dina has ever made it clear how she feels about Joyce. She has been perfectly willing to talk to Joyce about stuff and ask HER questions about her and Becky’s upbringing in the past. She obviously had issues with Joyce’s religious beliefs and how dogmatic and preachy Joyce was about them, but Joyce is changing in that respect. (Granted Joyce has shifted to being dogmatic and preachy about atheism but I don’t really see that bothering Dina).
This comic has been going long enough that it’s hard to remember every interaction but I find it odd everyone is suddenly like “Joyce should know not to talk to Dina because Dina hates her.” They’ve had some tension, on both sides, but to me it’s very unclear where they stand in general and it seems like it can vary from cordial to tense at any given moment.
And while it is very reasonable for Dina to set a boundary when she doesn’t want to talk about something, taking it as far as saying Joyce should know better than to ask her this because of their rivalry, when Dina seems able to set it aside when SHE wants to know something, seems fairly unfair.
*a thing, not a think. Omg why can’t I type today?
Has Joyce ever actually mistreated Dina in any meaningful way, though? The worst I can remember is her being vaguely dismissive of her, infantized her, maybe?
It seems to me Dina’s just projecting her own bad experiences onto Joyce and antagonizing her because she’s been more fortunate in having her condition identified and acknowledged, but that really isn’t Joyce’s fault at all. If anything, that’s a societal problem or maybe just circumstantial.
You don’t treat people with scorn just because they’re more fortunate or more privileged than you, okay? Those things only become a problem in the first place when they’re used as a justification to mistreat and exploit people.
Dina’s feelings are understandable, but I feel she’s absolutely in the wrong here. If Joyce has anything to learn, it’s to be more aware and considerate of other people’s circumstances, which to be perfectly honest, is a lesson just about anyone else in the comic could stand to learn tbh.
People have pointed out a few times when Joyce has treated Dina badly ..
– when she first introduced Becky to the floor she was rather dismissive of her beliefs in evolution (and talked about her like she wasn’t there)
– during the dorm party (where Dina and Becky first interacted) she was part of the group who made a comment about how young/underage Dina acts
– most recently she said Dina was like a “robot”
You also have the fact that Becky probably still has romantic feelings towards Joyce
I like Joyce. I think she’s doing her standard innocently insensitive schtick here. That said, I have cerebral palsy, also a spectrum disorder. If Joyce called me a cripple or a retard, even in innocent ignorance, then after that got hit by a semi and ended up paralyzed from the waist down and went, “Hey, samesies?” I would be, like Dina, a bit annoyed.
It’s understandable, but it’s also a textbook case of not seeing the hidden struggles.
Joyce doesn’t only talk a lot and eat chicken fingers. She has crippling anxiety about numerous things. She has plenty of awkwardness in social situations, but just masks it. She gets hyperfixated on things maybe even more than Dina.
It’s not a contest, of course. But Dina is making the assumption that everything has been peachy keen wonderful for Joyce.
Do you think Dina is being a shit? I think she’s being reasonable with a really difficult topic. Dina feels jealous and complicated, and she doesn’t really want to teach Joyce about Autism. That should be OK.
The implication that Joyce has been playing autism on Easy Mode ™ is a little uncool. It’s completely understandable given everything that’s happened between the two, and a very minor offense in the grand scheme of things, but a little uncool all the same. That said, actually declining the request is completely fair. No one is obligated to have emotionally difficult conversations, and especially not with people they aren’t close to.
At the same time, from Dina’s POV Joyce HAS.
Dina isn’t close to Joyce and doesn’t see how severely her sensory issues affect her eating, how Dorothy, Sarah and Becky all treat her as a child, or how being autistic certainly affected her upbringing (which is certainly why Joyce smiles all the time, because women aren’t allowed negative emotions).
She just sees that Joyce eats chicken fingers and smiles all the time. And that, unlike her, Joyce was able to fit in and build a strong network of friends whereas Dina still feels very much an outcast.
None of which is necessarily true, it’s just what Dina has visibility to.
I would argue it’s more than a little uncool. It’s lateral ableism and literally the sort of thing that contributes to abled bias against people with invisible or not readily obvious disabilities. Dina is ironically doing the very same thing to Joyce that has been done to her in the past: assuming things about her struggles and downplaying/dismissing them based on her own biases about who Joyce is and what her life has been like.
That said I agree with everything else. Dina is not obligated to engage Joyce socially if she doesn’t want to. Setting boundaries with someone you don’t like, who has been offensive to you in the past, is completely reasonable.
But it just disturbs me how many people here are agreeing with the idea that Joyce has been doing autism on “easy mode” as you put it here and/or kind of implying that she hasn’t really struggled or that her struggles are somehow less valid than Dina’s.
I completely understand Dina’s resentment. It’s a natural response, and I’ve been in both sides of it: seeing someone who seems to be struggling less get support and acknowledgement you never did really sucks, but at the same time it’s not that person’s fault, and it’s not fair to make those assumptions, as I’ve ALSO been the person told my experiences/complaints are invalid because someone else perceived their struggles as having been worse because they are more obvious and visible and they think being good at “hiding” or “passing” for normal must mean it doesn’t affect me significantly or cause any trauma (which is very very wrong).
I think another aspect is also that Joyce was completely unaware some of her behavior and struggles could be because of possible autism (because so many people in comments seem to forget she wasn’t actually diagnosed, a gynecologist with an autistic daughter suspected it, that’s hardly someone qualified to diagnose, though certainly to bring up the possibility)
But Joyce tries to reconcile all her behavior with what’s “normal” and lived under the assumption how her life and childhood was just “how it’s supposed to be.” She’s been having to confront with very much very fast how fucked up things were and now there’s a possibility that there was an underlying condition that might have been a factor in that.
I was initially diagnosed with ADHD at 19 in my first appointment with a (male) psychologist so I’ll admit, I never really related to the experience that women have more difficulty being diagnosed. Even so, it was my decision to treat my anxiety and depression over the ADHD because I didn’t think it factored heavily in my life (because info wasn’t as available back then as it was now, so I really thought it was a minor inconvenience kind of thing). The depression turned out to be bipolar, so the worry that a stimulant would essentially turn my depression to bipolar was kind of moot.
I was still 27 when I decided to ask my doctor about starting on adderall because I’d been reading more and realized that literally *every major issue* I had affecting my life aligned with ADHD. I thought there was just something *wrong* with me and I was actually fully capable of doing things and there was no reason I was just not able to. I didn’t know they were all connected until I researched and started medicating and focusing therapy on managing the ADHD instead of the individual behaviors in isolation from each other.
So the fact that Joyce hasn’t had more than what, 2 days? to even learn enough about how being autistic could have affected her behavior or why some things are more difficult or why she has to force herself through things or that any of those things could be connected makes it pretty easy to write her off, and possibly with her agreeing, as having been Easy Mode Autistic based on superficial aspects and not what she’s had to struggle with to both fit the expectations of her religious community and family, but also under the assumption she’s neurotypical.
Yes she is. She being petty and bigoted because she feels Joyce had life too easy because her issues are not exactly the same. It’s understandable and she has every right to be pissed about how her race and her appearance led to her issues being dismissed but she’s being as ass still because of it. It reads poorly even if she isn’t incorrect.
Definitely. But it’s possible for her to be both reasonable in her rejection AND kinda mean, maybe without meaning to.
I agree with all of the above responses.
If I could link to Proxiehunter’s comment from downthread, I would. Did we forget it was Joyce who called Dina a robot?
Sometimes you’re allowed to be a shit. I believe Dina gets a pass here.
Joyce is straight up actually asking Dina to do emotional labor on her behalf! It’s not very cool!
No she’s not! What the hell? She asked if they could have a conversation. Dina said no and left. That’s the entirely of this interaction so far.
Dina owes Joyce after breaking into her room and demanding by force that Joyce educate her on abusive evangelical child-rearing practices .
No, Dina does not owe Joyce. That’s a really shitty and manipulative way to look at things. “You did something mean to me so now you have to do what I want, even if it makes you uncomfortable, to make up for it.”
Thanks for putting into words what I’m really just to angry to write coherently.
You mean where she imitated what Joyce did to people assuming Joyce would be okay with it because its what she does?
She left the “WAKEY-WAKEY CHICKEN BAKEY” part out. Next time it might work if she follows the whole procedure.
No one ever “owes” someone else a conversation if they feel uncomfortable with it. Dina is not wrong to set a boundary. EVEN if she violated a boundary for Joyce earlier. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
That said I strongly disagree that Joyce is “asking dina to do emotional labor.” Joyce’s question is not unreasonable. Dina saying no is not unreasonable, even if I feel her dismissal of Joyce’s experience is problematic. Both these things can be true.
Nah and your takes a just bad my G
Cerusee and Sajuuk-Khar: Ask Culture vs Guess Culture?
you’ve left out “alternate universe fanfic I made up in my own head to justify my point of view” culture
As someone from an Ask house, Guess Culture is baffling. Can the passive-aggressive beating around the bush and just articulate what you want!
She asked if they could have “a conversation” about their potential “shared” autism, which was and is transparently a request for advice/support/coping mechanisms, and is clearly a subject Dina has personally struggled with extremely and has been wounded on in the past.
Like, if that’s not asking Dina to do emotional labor, I don’t know what you’d call it?
Yeah, Dina turned her down immediately (as is her right) and it’s not like Joyce is a criminal, it’s just a bad look (at least from Dina’s perspective) and a bad idea.
I would call if “asking if they could talk about a subject they’d recently mutually realized they might have in common, and that Dina had very, very much showed an interest in talking about with Joyce, even though Joyce didn’t actually bring it up with Dina”.
It’s fine that Dina shut it down, agreed. I vehemently disagree with the characterization that asking was an overstep on Joyce’s part, or that she was asking Dina to perform emotional labor for her by asking if Dina wanted to, essentially, keep up a conversation that DINA STARTED.
Dina didn’t actually want a conversation. She just wanted to gripe about how much easier it was for Joyce to get a diagnosis (not that she actually has a diagnosis yet or anything, and if it was so fucking easy why didn’t it happen until she was eighteen? at this point all that’s actually happened for Joyce is one (1) non-peer adult has said she might have it. A number which is half what it was for Dina at a younger age.)
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/vs3kzjLhbdKsndnBy/ask-and-guess
Ok I’ve never heard of this but this explains SO much to me. I’m probably more of an asker but also I am often too afraid to ask BECAUSE of getting negative responses from people. But I honestly very much prefer to ask things. For information, for help, for favors, for things. I struggle with finding the line between a good ask and a bad ask. Sometimes when I finally ask the other party is so relieved I finally did and are more than happy to accommodate me and it’s such a bizarre feeling.
Yeah, I get overwhelmed like this too. The times I get these kinds of social cues right it always just feels like lucky guesses.
At the risk of causing offence that really isn’t intended, I feel I still need to point out that Lesswrong should be read with a little care.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/LessWrong is debatable, but is a starting point.
Note that as that article states there are things to like – but there are also some rabbit-holes.
As someone who’s AS myself, I know very well that ecstatic feeling when you find a new resource that Explains How Things Work – I just wanted to wave a gentle ‘caution’ flag based on finding that same site for myself in past history.
To be very clear, that not to say it’s not being offered in good faith, nor that I suspect any motives other than wanting to help, it’s just that I’dve wanted to have known some of this, way back when…
That need to be honest gets me in trouble sometimes – let’s see if I’m taken as intended here?
This article is merely incomplete: yes, as it speculates, ask vs. guess also applies to whole cultures. Perhaps start here.
Strangely, there doesn’t seem to be a Wikipedia article on this topic.
That particular LessWrong post, I mean, is merely incomplete.
@eh, whatever
It was more of a general caution – and of course I’d say ‘take what’s useful, discard what’s not, check the implicit assumptions – and the sources’ (or something like that, I’m tired) about anything. Because that’s me. 🙂
Sincere thanks for the link, that’s actively useful. I loved that it mentioned autism as I know autistic folks that swing strongly in both extremes in that model. (Which of those is me, I leave as an exercise to the reader. 😉)
On this specific case, I think it’s one of those ‘useful way of looking at things, as a general idea’ like lots of things are, but again, pretty much every model we make is an incomplete ‘map of the actual territory’ – and that is no criticism either! Wisdom is knowing the limits of the map. 🙂
But now I wander all over the place. Really shouldn’t post while running a temperature. Thanks for engaging!
For some reason can’t reply lower down the chain, but thanks for your addition! I haven’t read much, and the small amount I have read has seemed good on Less Wrong but this is really useful context for deciding how much to delve further on it
I actually really like how the “asking” paradigm frames this strip’s exchange. Joyce made a request of Dina, Dina, in so many words, said no. Neither has does anything wrong. Everyone can chill.
NO. We must argue and nitpick until the Dina/Joyce Jerk scale is perfectly balanced.
/s
I dunno? Ask some questions, gain some understanding. Dina owes joyce Nothing, absolutely. But A request for a conversation is a request for a conversation. I know nothing, you know something. Rather than walking blindly through life it’d be nice to talk to someone who knows. Instead she got blasted in the face with “Your problems are insignificant in comparison to mine. Whatever you’re going through doesn’t matter because your experience has been less dehumanizing than mine, go away.”
This isn’t about Dina not having the spoons or emotional werewithal to help Joyce. She’s pulling rank and that rubs me the wrong way. A simple no would’ve sufficed. Hell I’d have preferred a “Fuck You” to that.
I think it speaks to Dina’s character, though. She’s clearly resentful of Joyce for how much easier it’s been for her to get diagnosed when she’s much less “obviously” autistic than Dina is. It’s shitty of her, but it’s narratively interesting.
That tends to be my perspective most of the time. I do make moral judgments of the characters, but that’s not the end-all be-all for me. Otherwise I would have already ragequit the comic based on how much Jennifer sucks. Instead, she’s one of my favorite characters because she sucks so much
Well just to be fair, they did talk about Autism.
I totally understand Dina’s response, it’s something that’s really traumatic for her, so she took the most effective long-term social route — delivering a concise panegyric of her experiences with it and making it clear that she REALLY doesn’t want to talk something this sensitive with just anyone, especially not with someone she could barely call a friend.
At the very least Joyce has now (hopefully) learned that neurodivergence can be something that’s really sensitive for some people, a lesson that will be of very much use to her.
If it were me I’d just learn never to talk about my problems with anyone cuz they’ll just rub it in my face. Thanks for telling me my problems don’t matter in your effort to shield yourself from this sensitive topic. So glad you chose to remind me that even my being neurodivergent has to come with an asterisk. I’d have rather she said “I don’t like you and don’t wanna talk to you about this” than what she said.
While this is definitely the sort of comment that can be extremely self-loathing-inducing for some people, I don’t know that Joyce has the background to be taking it that way.
Also, if it helps, your pain is real and your experiences are real regardless of what did or did not happen to other people.
Sorry if what I said come off as condescending, didn’t really mean it that way.
I guess what I’m trying to get at is, Dina’s reaction is not only inspired by her pre-existing baggage with Joyce, but also by fear of being vulnerable.
For Dina, talking about Autism and her relevant experiences with it is like stepping into an emotional minefield. Joyce smiling the whole time and then doubling down on her intention instead of showing she was listening wasn’t exactly the most sensitive, but she’ll get better eventually.
I should probably point I’m not saying this ABOUT Wellerman, as much as I am speaking about how I’d react to what Dina said.
Respectfully, it is very normal for people with disabilities to turn to people with the same disabilities for support. You keep saying that is demanding emotional labor of others in a way that suggests Joyce is asking for education on a topic she has no experience with. It is not REMOTELY the same thing and REALLY comes off as implying Joyce’s autism is somehow less valid or real than Dina’s because her history with it has been different. Because you seem to ascribe a different right to boundaries about this topic to dina than to joyce.
Let me ask you this, why is it okay for DINA to talk to Joyce about autism unpromoted (she literally popped into a convo she was not a part of when autism was brought up) but NOT okay for Joyce to merely ask Dina if they can talk about it further? I’m hoping this is just personal favorite character bias, rather than a deeper issue of dismissing the experiences of people who are less visibly disabled as less valid.
This is not Dina saying “no.” This is Dina saying “FIRST of all.” She’s taking exception to how the request was framed, not refusing to participate. It’s a friendly conversation on a difficult and nuanced topic within a difficult and nuanced friendship.
She is seeking support from the literally only person she knows who has some personal familiarity with the condition she was just told she has. Dina is not obligated to provide that support, but saying she’s demanding emotional labor of Dina is a bit much. Joyce is not an abled person demanding Dina educate her about something with which she has no experience.
It is VERY NORMAL AND COMMON and not unreasonable to try to connect with someone who has the same condition as you when you just found out you had it. Like I said, obviously Dina is totally within her rights to say no, as she did, but acting like Joyce is out of bounds for even ASKING is really unfair. If Joyce continues pushing after Dina said no, that’s another thing, but geez, people need to recognize the difference between violating boundaries and normal human interaction.
And I’m saying all of this as a multiply disabled person, who has both really appreciated and relied on the support of other people with my condition, especially early after my diagnosis, AND provided that same support for others who are newly diagnosed. Community support is something most people with these kinds of struggles needs or at least can benefit from. It’s unfortunate that so far the only person Joyce knows within that community is someone who she generally doesn’t get along with, but I can’t blame her for trying to reach out, as much as I can’t blame Dina for not reciprocating.
This is such a loaded comment – this is really not a healthy mindset to have. You CAN just talk to people about difficult topics. They CAN also say NO, if they don’t want to or can’t or don’t like you.
But asking people to talk about something emotionally difficult is not an affront. It’s not mean, rude or insensitive in itself.
Lol. “Hey, you are a friendly acquaintance, I was wondering if we could have a chat about a topic that is relevant to both of us, that you have more experience in” is not asking someone to perform emotional labor for you. It is basic human connection and conversation.
If Dina wants to say no, that’s fine, but Joyce isn’t a monster for politely asking to chat. (And, to reiterate, Dina is making the assumption that Joyce has been playing autism on “easy mode,” which is both dismissive and ignorant of the myriad of issues Joyce has to deal with)
Jesus wept, y’all. Uh. Okay. Let me go on record as eating some crow here: I have either used the idea of emotional labor incorrectly, or it’s being read as a moral condemnation of Joyce, which I have to stress, it is not. I like Joyce.
I also think that Dina is not her friend, has no motivation to be her friend, and does not owe her anything but civility. Which is fine! It’s okay not to be friends with someone! Dina is allowed to dislike her!
And I’m not saying Joyce is a secular sinner of some kind for putting this olive branch Dina’s way, but Dina’s not the bongoiest bongo in all the land for refusing and I think it’s very understandable why she did, because trying to be Joyce’s autism guide would be unpleasant nonsense she has no reason to do (they aren’t friends) and would get no reward from.
I’m sorry if I left the impression I thought Joyce was a monster, I don’t, mea culpa.
For me, it’s less about what you think about the characters and more about the term “emotional labour” being misused, imo. Which happens a lot, and it can get frustrating to see.
Despite that, conversations can be very emotionally taxing to some people, and I agree with you that Dina doesn’t owe Joyce one, and her reasona are understandable.
Yeah. They have to much… abrasive… between them. Joyce has said things, acted in certain ways, to Dina, that made it clear that she wasn’t friendly.
Talking to people is too much trouble. You should just internalize all your feelings and psychoanalyze yourself so nobody feels the need to pull rank on you. Or just hire a medical professional who will take your money because your only value as a human being is your finances. Every vulnerability is just another chance for someone to make you feel bad.
Are you the condensed personification of America’s mental healthcare system? This is uncannily familiar.
I’m Yoto!
So you are, traveller. So you are.
Don’t listen to them. That’s exactly what the American Healthcare System would say!
See, you joke, but I’m pretty sure most of the healthcare “professionals” in this neck o’ the woods would rather comment on webcomics and draw cute girls making out than do their jobs.
*attempts to Like thread*
I really feel you here, Dina!!! 😥
Children and adults alike, making hurtful assumptions about us, relentlessly tarnishing our dignity, holding us back, dehumanizing and tormenting us left and right…
Life never gets any easier for us, does it?
😖😖😖 😭😭😭
*plays “Rain” by The Seat-belts on hacked muzak*
I’m sorry about that, Wellerman. Hope all people improve the way they deal with each other. Fell free to complain all you want.
Y’know, that’s probably the nicest way Dina could’ve turned her down.
“Oh you with your nut-job religious family who never let you hear the word autism, trained you to perform happiness and obedience, and never let you have an independent thought, you are so blessed.”
Dina with her supportive parents who LET her go to school and backed her up when she was bullied (as apposed Joyce’s parents trapping her in their tiny world and doing the bullying themselves.) Ugh!
What happened to Joyce had nothing to do with autism. What happened to Dina did – and Joyce was the one who called her a robot so, you know, she’s continued the bullying Dina experienced. Reasonable for Dina to not want to talk with her.
What happened to Joyce had nothing to do with autism.
Because her parents are fundiegelicals? This is like saying that what happened to Dina had to do with racism, and therefore had nothing to do with autism.
The intersection of being neurodivergent and having authoritarian parents is a shit place to be.
dina has been bullied her whole life and denied support from systems supposedly existing to help her, leaving her without resources in a world that seemed to reject her entirely because of her autism and race.
Joyce was one of the people rejecting her, but with a smile on her face the whole time. her issues aren’t coming from the same place as dina’s at all, and before college it seems like joyce’s autism was
largely accepted as quirks.
dina also didn’t tell her she’s blessed and never had issues,she said they don’t have the same problems, which is true. dina also owes joyce nothing just because they happen to know each other.
so yes, this was the nicest one could expect her to be here.
I don’t think Dina is suggesting that Joyce’s life is better than her life. Dina is only pointing out that their experience with Autism is vastly different.
Dina can’t get through a conversation without the other person seeing that she’s very different — and people are often extremely mean about it — while Joyce has passing privilege in the neurotypical world. Dina has been trying her while lifetime to get help, to no avail, while Joyce had a resource fall into her lap without even trying, and was upset about it. Etc.
I have no doubt that Dina would choose her own life over Joyce’s life every time! but for Autism specifically, it’s OK to point out that they’ve had a really different go of it, and it’s also OK to not feel like teaching someone in your spare time.
I think the key line here is “We are not the same.” I know it’s a meme and all, but their experiences really have been wildly different, and I can’t remotely fault Dina for not wanting to sit in a hippie drum circle with Joyce and unravel each other’s knots.
Taffy, didn’t you know that if you don’t want to be someone’s friend, you are literally a murderer
No, I left that way of thinking behind when I started kindergarten.
(They know you’re being sarcastic, they’re just being a bongo.)
OTOH, until a couple of months ago in-universe Joyce was happy, had never perceived herself to have been bullied, and was completely unaware of the negative things you list. Dina, supportive parents notwithstanding, apparently did knowingly suffer these negatives – some of which we’ve seen in-story, and some of which were actually at the hands of Joyce. So yes, from Dina’s point of view, they haven’t had the same experiences – Joyce’s were far better, and there isn’t a lot that Dina really shares with her.
Yeah, Dina’s acting out because of how Joyce treated her as well as Becky. As well as going off the information she heard Joyce talk about the other day. AND she’s misreading WHY Joyce smiles “too much”. Unfortunately and ironically, this is less her being rational/irrational and more her autism working overtime to try to understand Joyce’s behavior.
THAT BEING SAID, she is more than aware of the damage done to Becky’s educational and emotional growth, so it’s not like she doesn’t have a basis for Joyce’s situation.
Yup. As far as dina understands it a smile is a way for a person to communicate “i’m happy”. Joice is telling her “i am happy about the current situation”. It’s a very bad misreading but also completely understandable as she doesn’t have an innate understanding of expressions the way neurotypicals do. I’m loving the hell put of this.
I actually suspect Joyce might be like me and a nervous smiler (yay Fawn response from trauma! */s*)
Which is nice to see an example of the kinds of misunderstandings *that* can cause.
(Try being a nervous smiler as an autistic 8YO with a pissed off abusive adult. “DO YOU THINK THIS IS FUNNY?!” is a shouted line that gets me to flinch over 20 years later.)
How on Earth is this shit nicer than just politely saying “I’d prefer not to discuss this with you”? No, Dina went for the throat here, and in the process probably ushered Joyce into the “Maybe I’m not valid” phase of neurodivergence early
Somehow I doubt it’s gonna get that intense for Joyce over this.
OK I admit probably not
She’s a tough cookie, that one.
I prefer my cookies chewy, personally
I don’t think most women like getting chewed on.
Only with consent
Dina was unpleasant to someone she doesn’t like and has no reason to like beyond a connection to Becky
This is: a war crime
First of all, no it isn’t, I totally understand why Dina lashed out at Joyce here and it’s not a huge deal, but also no it’s not cool to invalidate people’s neurodivergence actually.
Didn’t you just go off about how literally asking a question of someone with the same condition as you is demanding emotional labor? Literally no one is saying it’s a “war crime” for dina to be grouchy with Joyce, in fact MOST PEOPLE I’m seeing who are taking issue with Dina here are saying they AGREE she is allowed to set boundaries, and are mainly taking issue with the fact that she is dismissing Joyce’s experiences while setting those boundaries.
Be reasonable. If she’d said “I prefer not to discuss this with you” then Joyce would’ve pushed and pushed and pushed until she had to spell it out for her anyway.
Serious answer: The commenter didn’t say there weren’t any more effective ways to shut down Joyce, they said there weren’t any “nicer” ways, which is objectively not true. Even taking that into account there is in fact a middle ground between a polite “no” and “actually you’re not a Real Autistic™”
Silly answer: Dina could just keep saying “I’d prefer not to discuss this with you” over and over until Joyce gives up
As an autistic person, I can tell you that the nicest way to talk to me is to be clear and direct. It’s also nicest if you expect me to talk to you that way.
I think Joyce understands why accepting “No” for an answer is important.
Okay then she could say “I don’t feel comfortable talking to you about this because of the past conflict between us/because I am frustrated I have not been able to get the same level of support.”
See how both of those offer more in-depth explanation WITHOUT invalidating Joyce’s experiences?
Uh…. cause Dina’s situation and experience IS vastly different from Joyce’s.
Yes, and her anger is justified, but that doesn’t make her response harmless
This, exactly.
Dina could be coming across more harshly than she intends to. Crom knows I’ve done so on many an occasion.
No, the nicest way is “No”.
Yeah, this. Don’t blame Dina for turning her down, but I’d never call it the nicest way of doing it when a simple ‘no’ exists.
Making assumptions about someone’s personal struggles and implying they’ve had it easier in a way that dismisses the validity of their experience isn’t what I’d call “the nicest way.” It’s some pretty clear lateral ableism, and while Dina’s frustration is completely justified, she’s directing it at someone who is not the cause of her lack of support/treatment/validation, and literally doing the same thing to Joyce as multiple people have done to her over the years, by invalidating her experiences.
The actually nicest way would be just saying “I don’t feel comfortable talking to you about this because of the past conflict between us/because I am frustrated I have not been able to get the same level of support.” Or even just saying, “no I’m not comfortable with that right now,” no further explanation needed. Multiple ways to have set a very valid boundary without implying Joyce has had it easy so they must not have anything in common.
Writing-wise I have zero issue with this response because it’s a very realistic and human way to respond. And also she is a fictional character. But I take issue with the number of real people agreeing with her frankly fairly laterally ableist take. It’s an awesome reminder of how quick people are to invalidate other people’s experiences if they “look” fine and look like they haven’t been struggling to the outside observer.
I didn’t consider the invalidating of Joyce’s experience, intentional or not. Thank you for elaborating!
No problem! I’m glad it was helpful. Like many things this comic deals with, it’s probably not necessarily something that would jump out at folks unless they’ve had a lot of direct personal experience with it.
Joyce talks with Joe’s mom?
Or maybe she joins a club?
I don’t think there will ever been a universe where Joyce and Dina will be friends.
I know that realistically there are times where people just never end up friends but I want these two to find a way to friendship eventually. Especially considering Dina is dating Joyce’s best friend…not getting along with your partner’s best friend inevitably makes that situation awkward and tends to be a frequent ongoing source of tension.
But they likely both require a lot of character growth (especially Joyce who is just in the early stages of a lot of really important growth) to get to that point.
I’m sure they’ll sort this out one day. They’ll have to if they’re going to function as neighbors for forever!
They’re not neighbours though, Joyce is neighbours with Sal and Malaya. Dina and Amber are neighbours with Becky and Dorothy.
I think Sirksome is talking about Becky’s dream of being next-door neighbors with Joyce when they’re both adults and out of college.
Which, in hindsight, was just her way of having a cover while she continues an extramarital relationship with the woman she’s actually in love with. Assuming that Joyce was also gay, of course.
That is what I was talking about.
Sirksome is referring to Becky’s fantasy about moving in (with Dina) next to Joyce and… whoever Joyce ends up with.
I’m sure Dina is resigned to future sitcom-style antics.
To be fair, Joyce was also denied resources (by her abusive cult parents) and is constantly being infantilized by the people around her. Sure, people haven’t told her to her face that she’s a child, like they have with Dina – but at least they let Dina make her own medical decisions and are *honest* with her about the fact that they don’t respect her.
Yeah, there’s definitely been some repeated infantilization of Joyce by the people around her – even outside of the immediate cult parents. In no small part because of her eating habits, including by her peers here at school.
But I do totally get Dina’s pushback here, because some of that infantilization and dehumanizing was stuff that Joyce said, too. Even people Dina’s generally friends with like Amber have gotten in on it in the past, and Dina and Joyce have had a lot of reasons not to get along. I think at some point when this particular hurt is less raw, they might be able to find some common ground – Joyce explaining how she’s lost her faith because of how she internalized Everything Must Literally Be True and how much ENERGY she spent reconciling that, and how hard it’s been to unpack all the garbage, might make Dina better inclined to her on some fronts (especially if Joyce maybe asks for some help with SCIENCE, where she would be coming to the light at last. As a bonus, paleontology has trained Dina quite a bit in coping with the idea that sometimes you will learn things that conflict with your previous idea of a situation, and those facts will have always been the case but you didn’t have access to them and now you have to change your hypothesis because Spinosaurus had a big paddle-like tail – I think that’s a skill Joyce in particular would benefit from putting points into.) And that’s also a point where I could see Dina maybe at some point recognizing the rigidity and ability to infodump – in a totally different form – and seeing where someone might be getting at the autism idea.
But, she already isn’t fond of Joyce, and this sudden encounter’s brought up years of trauma on Dina’s end and the unfortunate reality of racism (and sexism, but that’s equalized here) in diagnosis of neurodivergence. So I wouldn’t expect that any time soon.
Oh, yeah, no, I think Dina’s response is perfectly reasonable! Just wanted to make sure all the commenters were on the same page 🙂
I mean, I’m on https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/perceive/ , I dunno about the rest of y’all.
Wait, really? That’s weird, I could’ve sworn we were all on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ. I was way off.
Thanks, and all good! 🙂
Agreed.
Totes on all of this Regalli!!! Always a pleasure to read your comments!!! 🥹
Reminder that Joyce called Dina Robot Girl.
Yuuuup.
Was just about to say this, Dina is girlfriend’s with Becky, she mostly tends to avoid Joyce unless it has something to do with Becky because Dina knows that Joyce knows Becky
Dina is jealous of Joyce … and Dina was sitting on top of Joyce while she suffered intense pain when Joyce was rude to her. Dina is lucky Joyce didn’t throw her off the bunk bed or punch her.
You sound like you should take a break from the comment section rather than continue to say violent shit.
No one is “lucky” they weren’t physically assaulted. That’s the standard. That’s the bare minimum for human interaction. Touch grass.
Yeah, it’s genuinely uncomfortable that this kind of violent bullshit keeps showing up in the comments whenever the topic of autism comes up. And then the visibly and openly autistic people (hi, we’re fucking people, btw) get told we’re making the comments “worse to read” for putting a goddamn emoji or cuss word in our (unrelated) replies.
I’m autistic and if I woke up to anyone who wasn’t dating me straddling my fucking body in the dark I would probably deck that person literally just out of pure reflexes before I even realized what I was doing. That said, it would be going too far to hit her after already knowing this wasn’t some kind of abrupt, mid-sleep sexual assault, regardless of gruesome period pain or other factors.
Like, I get the reflexes thing, but that’s never been a factor here. It always get taken to this faux-badass “I’d simply hit them as a first resort” shit that’s… Well, it’s worthless. There’s no value and nothing to be gained by saying “I’d beat up a person in this hypothetical scenario that I made up to sound tougher”. Like, who fucking cares? Nobody’s around to get hit, you’re just signalling to everyone around you that you’re a violent dickhead with a hair-trigger temper just waiting for an excuse.
The only time it should be socially acceptable to say someone was “lucky” not to get hit is during a D&D session or maybe a video game.
I’d say she was lucky not to get REFLEXIVELY punched by a person who could easily have panicked after someone they aren’t even dating woke them by straddling their body in the dark, but I definitely agree that choosing to punch Dina after having understood the situation would still not have been okay regardless of the other mentioned circumstances.
I’ve got no horse in the metagame of Dina Straddling Joyce. I was just reacting to the excessive response that seems to relish in the idea of hitting someone at the first available opportunity.
So, Dina had one instance of ignoring someone’s boundaries, being oblivious to how they were feeling, and only correcting herself after she had to be explicitly told to stop… All things that Joyce herself has done multiple times throughout the comic.
Dina disliked Joyce long before that! Although I doubt that that helped.
Yeah, Joyce really should not have done that.
Calling Dina a “robot girl” because of her behavior is hurtful and no way to treat a friend.
Calling her a robot girl because she could some stand perfectly still for an entire day and ate nothing but cereal for six months without ever developing scurvy is just stupid. Never let the Terminators know you are on to them.
Also reminder: Joyce couln’t have known back then how hurtful that word would be for Dina.
Today’s update proves that it is: very very hurtful.
I’m shocked, shocked, by the predictable development that Dina doesn’t want to be friends with Joyce after a long history of Dina openly disliking Joyce. Who could have seen that one coming
Now, watch as Dina is predictably either insulted for her very reasonable dislike of Joyce, or placed on a pedestal for it! Observe, and wonder!!
What shall be engraved upon the base of the plinth?
I think the Dina-Joyce non-friendship is well-established with Joyce having taken the lead in being the bigger condescending asshole, and Dina really keeping it going by having minus zero interest in Joyce as a human being even while she treats Joyce like a reference book on Becky and Joyce and Becky’s Fundamentalist Childhood that can be consulted at will with no regards to Joyce’s own comfort or convenience. Joyce used to be a jerk towards Dina, and Dina now refuses to change her perception of Joyce even though Joyce has gone through some pretty radical personal change over the last few months, and is much more inclined to be interested in who Dina really is and approach her as such.
…when I say it like that it kinda sounds like Pride and Prejudice.
“is much more inclined to be interested in who Dina really is and approach her as such.”
I mean, you say that, but Joyce has shown zero interest in who Dina is. She has shown interest in how Dina can help her.
That’s a fair cop. No, I don’t think Joyce has been terribly interested in who Dina is in her own right, either.
The only comment I have there is that Joyce has genuinely tried to be welcoming of Dina’s presence in Becky’s life, despite Dina ostensibly representing everything her upbringing taught her was evil. Dina is pretty open in her disinterest/dislike of Joyce, and only ever approaches Joyce when she needs a Becky-related favor (which Joyce always grants). It’s…an uneven relationship.
I think one thing that kind of skews this audience’s perception of these characters is the extremely decompressed timescale the comic takes place on. Remember, in-universe, it’s been like a week since the timeskip. The characters still processing and recovering and reckoning with the fallout from shit that, to us, happened months if not years ago. People are talking about how Dina doesn’t seem to have fully registered that Joyce isn’t Christian anymore, but of course she hasn’t; that reveal happened 4 days ago in-universe, and I’m not actually sure that anyone told Dina. I think it’s fair to say that in real life, people often change faster than we can adjust our perception of them.
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single redhead in possession of a bad fortune, must be in want of a dinosaur.
Well it’s not called Reasonabling of Age now is it
Nah dina has liked joice well enough through most of college, the only point of conflict being joice’s old anti-evolution stick. Well she did. Until the robot comment.
…while Joyce not getting that Dina doesn’t like is honestly less shocking in light of recent events.
What about their other shared issue, being confused about sexual desire? Dina could suggest some semi-controlled experiments for Joyce.
Dina is not confused about sexual desire. She accepts that she generally does not get horny, outside of certain situations she hasn’t pinpointed the cause of. That’s not being confused.
Neither is Joyce. Joyce feels guilty about sexual desire. I do not recall her being confused by it. Confused by the mechanics yes but nit the desire.
Guilty and ashamed!
But also intrigued!
And ashamed!
Dina does know Joyce was homeschooled right? By conservative fundamentalists. Repeating the third grade isn’t exactly the same but I feel like there are some similarities in the failure of both their formative educations. This is a rare miss for Dina. She’s being kind of an ass on that one.
She’s definitely a little biased against Joyce, but at the same time, I don’t blame Dina for not being impartial about this. Joyce hasn’t exactly been the nicest to Dina.
Neither of them has been nice to eachother. Dina sniped at her and attacked things that didn’t affect her (dina) and then used her as a reference book for Becky and their upbringing + talked down to her about it after being told to physically get off her.
Joyce has made social errors and generally been ignorant of large parts of why things aren’t okay and generally has had a handful of asshole-moments (namely calling her robot girl, not knowing at all how it would affect her.)
The biggest thing is Joyce doesn’t come at Dina intending to hurt her or change her. Dina has before on multiple occasions wanted to change joyce or treated her fairly poorly. (hissing/batting at her like she would infect becky when they were *both* raised fundamentalist.)
Dina’s experience has been hard and I don’t blame her for not wanting to discuss this with Joyce. But pulling “Your neurodivergency isn’t immediately apparent to me and I’m going to condescend about how your problems aren’t as bad as mine”
Idk. Dina’s cute and had a tragic story in the other walkyverse timelines. But on my current re-read she feels a lot less… likeable than I thought on my first readthrough? We don’t see much of her admittedly. She’s sprinkled around, but it’s mostly through sympathy/empathy that we bond with her (like when Raidah and co bullied her.) or think she’s cool (redirecting toedad)
But overall I feel like stuff that on the first readthrough felt endearing now feels grating. (like her whole constant atheistic comments.) And the fact that they continue well into her dating Becky, and when she speaks about Becky’s beliefs, it seems like she’s pitying her for having religion, like she subtly… looks down on religious people? which feels odd to me.
(then again in walkyverse she did kind of get fridged after her romantic tragedy, so I guess we missed out on quite a bit of development.)
oh boy i went on a ramble sorry folks
TL;DR: Dina and Joyce have said mean shit to each other before, Dina’s comment here was still uncalled for based on the origins of each character’s jerkiness over the course of the comic.
I think she probably is aware. I don’t think she cares. Dina definitely does not consider Joyce a friend. She mostly considers her an annoying appendage to Becky. Sometimes, she treats her like a knowledge-pump for useful facts about Becky! Like “literally sit on top of her” to get those useful insights out.
And at no point in her life was it assumed that Joyce was “lazy” or “inattentive” or “not applying herself” or that she had difficulties related to factors that would turn out to be outside of her control, they are in fact not the same.
Now that she’s brought it up, Joyce really does smile all the time.
The fuck is up with that? Is it possible for her to be happy almost constantly, or is that some coping mechanism?
100% Coping Mechanism.
Yup; childhood survival technique. Performing happy obedience to avoid being beaten and mob prayer sessions.
Yes, Becky has it too, and it makes me feel really uneasy :/
Joyce’s trauma responses 100% include “fawn” (as do Becky’s, but for her it’s the primary one whereas Joyce also has a strong “fight” instinct that the abuse has not entirely suppressed.)
I want to thumbs-up this because everyone forgets about “freeze” and “fawn”, but I’ve seen and done those two in real life MUCH more than outright “flight” or “fight.”
Fight – Joyce
Freeze – Ruth
Fawn – Becky
Flight – Walky
I think there’s also flop, which is like…advanced freeze
Sometimes abuse makes the fight instinct stronger. There’s a reason I sometimes refer to my fight or fight instinct.
Accidentally flagged while trying to reply, 100% accurate
Yeah, Toedead thoroughly suppressed Becky’s “fight” response.
Gravatar is fitting?
Look up “keeping sweet” and fundamentalist Christianity
Fundie girls must keep sweet and never disobey.
She was supposed to go to school for a MRS not to actually learn anything.
She was supposed to learn primary education, that way she’d be qualified to homeschool Carol’s grandbabies.
I remember learning in grade 4 that if I smiled a lot people (especially adults) would like me and put up with me (like letting me sit with the teachers to avoid bullies). I also had the blue-eyed-blonde type white privilege in my favour. It helped to appease adults like teachers and basically compensate for general social defecits.
On the flip-side it contributed to me not getting the support I needed to manage everything I really struggled with because I could “get away” with outbursts (because I was “sensitive”), and I burned out everyday and ended up melting down as soon as I got home. Plus it didn’t protect me from being bullied all through school by other students.
So not exactly all Dina maybe thinks. But I might also be a little more Dina-leaning spectrum-wise, just with Joyce’s white privilege and the specific strategies open to cute little white goyls…
Joyce. Honey. I know you mean well. I accept that maybe you would like Dina to be your friend. But that’s not going to happen. She doesn’t like you. Get the heck out of her grill.
Ironic huh?
…she was following some advice given to her by her roommate? Sarah? About maybe talking to someone who self-identifies as autistic and very much jumped up into Joyce’s business the fucking second the word came up, with regards to Joyce?
No, I don’t think Dina wants to be Joyce’s friend, and I don’t think she should feel like she ought to be; they don’t have a great history and Dina holds Joyce in great contempt. But Joyce isn’t being an overstepping asshole just by *approaching* Dina to ask if she’s open to comparing notes.
Joyce is trying desperately to find someone to talk to about something she has been told is bad and quite possibly evil. For her entire life. Dina has autism.
This isn’t hard math.
Dina having autism doesn’t obligate her to be Joyce’s personal spokesperson on the topic. The math doesn’t end at “Need to talk + Dina’s autistic”, we have to include the characters’ actual dynamic.
Of course not, but it’s not hard to see why Joyce went to her.
I don’t think anyone is surprised by any of the events in this strip, tbh.
Not at all.
It wasn’t unreasonable for Joyce to ask.
Dina is well within her rights to deny the conversation.
Why is everyone bickering about this?
@Needfuldoer, because Dina didn’t reject the offer in a “nice” way. At least that’s what I’m seeing in the comments section. And Dina pushed passed Joyce’s boundary that one time so that means Dina has to help her. (Which that is another comment I saw).
Quite a few people take this comic and these characters close to heart. Any slight on the “well liked” character, justified or not, is a slight on them as a person. This isn’t talking about minor characters or the characters that are tagged as the objectively evil one.
Another thing I’ve noticed that when it comes to “well liked” characters, some people will wave off issues or make excuses for said characters. But another character steps out of line against their “well liked” character and they’ll go days/months/years with receipts. Grace for their character but not for the other.
It’s funny, confusing, frustrating at times. Even when there’s instances of a panel being a joke, the comments section makes a federal case out of certain characters.
Because character interactions must be a reciprocal tit-for-tat, perfectly balanced as all things should be. Right, commentariat?
/s
@Needfuldoer Of course!
Dina is, according to the kids, “built different”
Professor Brock’s parting comments feel spicier than the conversation, hoo-wee.
Schrodinger’s classroom. The students are in a superpostion of both states until proved otherwise :P.
dina must’ve seen that meme with giancarlo esposito
Friends- well- acquaintances and strangers- yes, we do know that Dina’s parents are good people. We have also had barely a taste of how nearly every other person treats her and it’s not great.
Also, like, Joyce wasn’t in a cult because she was autistic, those are different and unrelated things.
you get it
I’m reminded of Redcloak assuming Durkon wouldn’t know anything about his upbringing because “dwarves live underground surrounded by gems” and he just musters an “uh-huh” rather than press the issue further.
Yes. Joyce could have added a whole day’s worth of explanation how she was abused and brainwashed growing up. How she was denied a quality education, how she would have loved to be allowed to go to third grade, how she was forced to learn these exact coping mechanisms Dina makes fun of like performing obedience and happiness.
Sounds like a waste of time. Dina doesn’t seem to care.
She doesn’t. She likes few of the people she’s with and Joyce isn’t one of them. She doesn’t pretend to civility and friendliness
Sounds like a healthier way to live than a lot of society’s forced friendliness.
You will not get very far if your only two modes are “I like you stay around” and “I don’t like you piss off”
You’re inventing a scenario of two extremes, and I don’t subscribe to it. I don’t have the patience or vocabulary to write out a paragraph explaining the nuanced version of my previous comment, just know that I agree with what you said rules-as-written and in a strictly literal sense.
Although I will point out that Republicans exist in basically only the two states you’ve described, and they’re all over the place getting everything they ever wanted, so the data is skewed.
Growing up, Joyce didn’t think she was abused, didn’t think she was brainwashed, didn’t think she was denied a quality education, didn’t think she was forced into anything. Until a couple of months ago in-universe she was all in for all of it, and actually told everyone how wonderful it was. You are looking at it from outside, not from Joyce’s perspective. Joyce thinks differently now, but this is new to her and not the life she experienced for 18 years.
Dina isn’t making fun of them. She’s stating observations.
She’s not aware of how she comes off.
Observations are the same thing as mockery and condemnation, unless you follow them with at least 300 words explaining every possible intricacy, exception, and fringe case to what you’re observing.
Dina doesn’t have to yield that much time and attention to Joyce if she’s not interested in doing so.
That’s why I like this comic, there is no bad guy here. You understand both sides and both sides are realistic.
Exactly. They’re just a pair of people having a completely morally-neutral interaction, and it’s good to see.
I agree. It’s good to see Dina set boundaries but Joyce isn’t wrong to seek like experience people.
You know, on the one hand, it’s perfectly reasonable that Dina doesn’t want to be Joyce’s Autism Buddy(tm). They barely tolerate each other by virtue of a shared Becky, and a shared neurodivergence isn’t a strong foundation for friendship.
On the other hand, god I need to see Joyce have a positive and/or healthy relationship with someone in this comic who isn’t Joe. I love Joe/Joyce, I do! But damn, everyone’s either ignoring her Giant Trauma Flags or trying to Mom Friend their way through them when a mom is like, 30% of the trauma. Girl needs more people in her life whom she can have an honest and positive conversation with right now.
Wonder if Jocelyn’s busy right now.
Very good. Agree. I sure hope she does find someone to talk to who will actually listen.
Joyce’s friend group is failing her something fierce right now. It might be part of why I reacted so strongly to Dina here. She’s not really wrong, but Joyce has already been invalidated so many times by her friends, so it stings to add another one to the pile
Yeah, it’s like, on the surface Dina’s being perfectly reasonable here and has very good reasons to say no to this, but also I’ve spent the past near-decade of my life with a front row seat to watching Joyce experience six straight months of pure trauma and having her entire life upended twelve different times and aaaaaaa someone plz acknowledge that this girl is going through it.
Hell, give her some time with Roz at this point. You can’t tell me she wouldn’t be hyped as shit for someone to come to her as an Authoritative Source of Knowledge and Resources. Hell, she hopped in with advice on birth control not twenty-four hours ago. She’d have a stack of references from self-advocacy networks printed out by day’s end.
…or maybe I’m just that desperate, who knows.
You’re suggesting that a character willingly interact with Roz. You’re desperate. 😛
I mean, Joyce has apparently been actively ignoring Jocelyn’s calls, so I wouldn’t get my hopes up on that.
As an aside, is anyone else worried that Jocelyne might not be doing okay? She’s invested a lot in being able to remain a part of her family, and now that family is splitting down the middle. She’s the one who always stayed out of arguments, avoided conflict, refused to take sides – and that’s probably impossible now, or at least a lot more emotionally draining. Don’t get me wrong, the entire Brown family is going through some shit right now, but I feel like she’s probably getting hit the hardest.
She’s probably the most torn between the parents.
John’s probably on Team Carol. Jordan’s probably out of the loop or completely disinterested. Joyce is Team Hank. Jocelyne kept her head down and has been living a lie this whole time just to not burn any bridges.
It’s reasonable that Joyce would be wary of interacting with any of her siblings on anything important right now. (Especially for an important mental health issue that can and will be weaponized to invalidate her input.)
I get Dina’s point but I find umbrage with the way she decided to make it.
Nah, that’s honestly fair enough. Joyce ain’t wrong to try and reach out, but she honestly has a lot o’ learnin’ to do, and Dina’s certainly not the person to go to for that. She’s got her own stuff to deal with
Agreed. I’d like to see them find common ground at some point because I think they COULD get along and have valuable things to pick up from each other, but this is 1000% not that time.
(Joyce probably has a few more pointers on how to work with Becky’s specific traumas and the two of them could brainstorm some in Helping Becky Unpack More of The Ways Their Upbringing Fucked Them Up, since Joyce has been dealing with it way more as a PERVASIVE thing to Becky’s Primarily About Her Evil Dad one; Dina DEFINITELY can teach Joyce how to incorporate new ideas into your worldview and adjusting from one potentially-quite-strongly-held idea to another in the face of new evidence, which Joyce sorely needs.)
I’m too frustrated with Dina’s never-wrong characterization these days to comment much but Becky, Sarah, Dorothy, and literally Dina herself have all repeatedly infantilized Joyce for behaviors which are, in retrospect, probably autism symptoms. So on that note, fuck off, Dina.
I think in this case it’s supposed to be an active flaw on Dina’s part.
By which I mean I feel pretty confident actually that this is supposed to be an active flaw on Dina’s part consistent with their longtime mutual animosity and Dina’s noted experience with medical racism screwing her over, making her jealous Joyce found someone willing to listen right off the bat.
I really want it to be intentional, because Dina’s dislike of Joyce rendering a HUGE blind spot to the math of “Becky’s upbringing left her a with a lot of hangups and trauma that deserve consideration and understanding + Joyce had the exact same upbringing = Joyce may have similar hangups and traumas equally worthy of consideration (that also may have intersected with her autism to create Fun And Exciting(/s) New Trauma)” is an absolutely fascinating character flaw that could add some real depth to the characters of all three of them, especially is Dina stops and actually thinks on what Sarah said about Becky making fun of Joyce for traits that could get Joyce diagnosed. (Holy run-on sentence, Batman)
Also because it really feels like Dina’s spent the past several years being relegated to “Becky’s flawlessly understanding girlfriend who conveniently says and does all the right things to make Becky feel better” and it would be real neat to see her have a narrative role outside of that, not gonna lie.
TL;DR I deserve to see my fave dino girl misread a situation and downplay another person’s experiences and struggles due to her own established and addmitedly pretty warranted biases against that person, as a treat.
Characters should be interesting and it’s weird how many people don’t seem to feel that way. For some fans, characterization begins and ends with how morally correct the characters are
I mean, I’ll be the first to admit I have absolutely gotten a bit pissy about character flaws, but that’s mostly due to exposure. Webcomic time or not, when you see someone be the exact same kind of jackass every time they show up for months on end, the desire to pick it apart eventually gives way to “aaaaaugh just fix your shit already.”
This conflict, on the other hand, is entirely knew and exciting jackassery that builds off of established character dynamics and traits in interesting, understandable, and dissectable ways, and I am fed in this Chili’s tonight.
Yeah, that’s fair. I was over Becky’s dumb, antagonistic, one-sided “rivalry” with Dorothy long before the comic finally stopped doing it
See, this is why I want Dina to be allowed to be wrong *in the narrative*. She has yet to be *framed* as being in the wrong in any meaningful way, unless you count the seemingly-abandoned “thinks she’s Becky’s rebound” plot thread, which I wish was still a thing.
I agree, I would find it interesting as well, and I hope you get this.
I think Joyce needs to reassess her behavior towards Dina in the past, give her a genuine apology, and treat her with more respect in the future before Dina is going to go out of her way to try and understand Joyce.
I think that Joyce may actually need to be taught about genuine remorse and apologies, because her upbringing would definitely have emphasized pro forma apologies (say the magic words and the other person must say the magic words back and then the relationship is perfect again) over genuine remorse and improvement, because in that culture its always the children who have to change, not the adults.
Yeah this.
I don’t see Dina’s behavior as perfect here, but it *is* very understandable. I get where she’s coming from on this and why – hell, I had a similar impulse when despite me struggling in a much more obvious way on the social and behavioral fronts in so many ways my younger sibling got an ADHD diagnosis before either of mine.
There was a big element of, “fucking seriously? She fails a few tests and it’s the end of the fucking world and I’VE been barely hanging on all through school and a total outcast but I just need to be less sensitive and try harder? Fuck. This.”
Like, Dina doesn’t know Joyce well at all. She doesn’t see how others infantilize Joyce or WHY Joyce feels obligated to always smile or how badly her food issues affect her. She lacks context into why and how Joyce is struggling. To Dina it looks like she lives the life of Riley on easymode in a homeschool environment (probably something that was Dina’s ideal school in her childhood fantasies – I know because I often fantasized about being homeschooled as a solution to all my problems as a horribly bullied middle schooler), a group of supportive friends who seem to accept her, and immediate diagnosis the moment she starts to struggle.
In that context – and given that I had the same sort of angry-jealous reaction to my sibling being diagnosed as Dina when I DID have context, I don’t at all blame Dina for her reaction. It’s very human even if it’s a bit harsh.
I agree with you and these two comments. Thank you.
They’ve also all but becky spent most of collage making microaggressions towards dina. Shit’s complicated.
You summed up my thoughts pretty well here.
She’s consistently been written as being ‘in the right’ in terms of narrative voice. Relatively unflawed, so when she says this kind of thing, it feels very definitive. We haven’t seen anything to counter it.
Yeah. Joyce is one of the people who “repeatedly infantilized” Dina and called her a “robot”. Also introduced Dina by calling attention to things she was “not good at”.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/03-trial-and-sarah/notweirdatall/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/formed/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/safe-2/
…On a somewhat related note, is it odd that their biology professor appears to lack object permanence? I don’t believe he’s talking about the Uncertainty Principle, because that wouldn’t involve winking out of existence (at least, not for any appreciable length of time.)
Prof. Brock has perfectly fine object permanence, motherfucker just is super high on his own philosophical supply
“I know how molecules work, and therefore am a Person To Be Listened To on matters of philosophy” like calm down, Rick Sanchez.
I will cut her some slack on the eye contact one, not sure where or not Dina would but yeah, the other two definitely cross my mind here. Joyce did apologize for the infantilizing comment, but not for calling her “robot girl”, which, yeah, that one was really fucked up.
Honestly I don’t think Joyce meant it as a compliment, but I do think it 100% stems from Joyce viewing her as able to perfectly be obedient because she’s often quiet, and I imagine Joyce naively speaking up is what got her hit as a kid, hence why Becky was the wild child and Joyce comparatively didn’t get whacked a ton with the spoon.
tldr: it stemmed from her being annoyed that Dina had physically caused her more pain, and then on top of that attacked her upbringing which was already collapsing in on itself like a neutron star, telling her once again something was abnormal.
It was still fucked up, but in the moment I can understand her sniping at Dina without thinking.
Specifically seeing her as robotically perfect because that’s the only way she could have avoided being spanked as a kid. In Joyce’s mind, being spanked more, less, or not at all is all about the kid’s behavior, not the parent’s choice. Dina saying her parents never struck came across to Joyce as some weird boast.
Of course, if it had been Dorothy saying she was never spanked, the reaction would have been entirely different, so the prejudice is still hidden in there.
True. If it were Dorothy, it would have been a much less ambiguous, “Well, of course not. You’re perfect.”
…Which, considering how Joyce is (still?) majoring in education and wants so badly to have children, Joyce is probably going to have to learn some new strategies and ways of understanding children, eventually.
As someone to whom the term “robot” has been applied, it’s probably less about obedience and more about the general lack of displayed emotion. Perhaps also visible reliance on analysis and logic. Or maybe I’m projecting.
Normally it would be, I think, but in that particular interaction where it was in the context of Joyce’s understanding of parenting and spanking, obedience makes more sense. Not showing emotion doesn’t avoid spanking, in her mind. Obeying does.
I think he’s more of a solipsist, but ymmv.
His favorite song is Dust in the Wind by Kansas.
This is funny to me because I think Dina dislikes Joyce because of how similar they are. It’s like a funhouse mirror of her traits reflected back at her. Both have near encyclopedic knowledge of rather specific subjects. Both are pretty judgemental of people who believe in ideologies that they don’t. (This happens to be each other by the way) They both often misunderstand or completely miss certain social cues that many consider common knowledge. They both also imitate other people’s behavior (like the time they both pretended to be Sal). They are also both surprisingly capable of instances of rage or violence. Dina says they’re not the same but it’s actually closer to the opposite. There’s a reason Becky is attracted to both of them.
Oh very interesting!
Oooh, good catch breaking it down like that, especially in how their belief systems/special interests (former, in Joyce’s case, but Dina absolutely uses science and paleontology as the lens through which she copes with a world not suited to her, it’s absolutely a special interest that also functions as a belief system as opposed to a special interest that’s PURELY in the obsessive knowledge and bringing comfort sphere) are so deeply incompatible, but the underlying mechanisms are ultimately the same.
They are INCREDIBLY similar. But their respective topical fixations—Dina on paleontology, Joyce on the Bible—turned into a conflict .000000001 seconds after they met, and pretty much every interaction they’ve had since has made it worse.
Joyce mellowed out first because she’s Joyce and and she’s an extrovert and she’s highly social and inclined to try to be friendly even after a bad interaction. Dina’s carrying a mega-grudge because she’s not those things, and also because she’s dating a girl who’s been in love with Joyce for like fifteen years and Joyce is a threat to her relationship.
It is completely reasonable that they aren’t friends.
One bit that makes it fascinating is that Dina specifically picks out Joyce’s food preferences as something to dismiss her with. Um, are you sure that’s the one you want to point to, Ms. Eats-Only-Cereal?
I think she’s saying those are typical autistic traits (which they are).
My read of that is “I’ve suffered in so many ways because of my autism; your very privileged experience has been smiling too much and some discomfort about mixing foods.”
Agree. I think the biggest differences are around the intersection of race. White privilege is a hellova thing when it comes to how behaviours/ND traits are perceived and responded to.
Can someone explain to me where the idea that dina dislikes joice comes from cause i just don’t see it. Like yeah she dislikes the old anti-evolution thing joice’s been on but that’s an element. They have generally been getting on fine and they’ve both cared for each other even of they’re not the best friends in the group. Like yesh the robot comment clearly hurt dina to the point where this is no longer the case but people talk about them like they were always like this.
They have never liked eachother at all. Dina found Joyce idiotic and insulting because of her fundie beliefs and thought she was stupid to have them. Joyce thought Dina was creepy and wierd because of her behavior and also because of how insulting she was about her beliefs at first
Wtf are you talking about
The comic. Specifically “the bits before this strip that provide details of Joyce and Dina’s prior interactions”. Why are you confused?
This strip and the couple following it are a good start:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/feathers/
They are always like this. Even before the timeskip. Joyce and Dina do not like each other and only hang out because their mutual love for Becky is the one and most important thing they can agree on. It’s just not a malicious and hateful relationship. It’s more like a causal disregard for the other often played up for comedy. Here’s a few examples I enjoy pre-timeskip of them just being jerks to each other and disagreeing on a fundamental level.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/feathers/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/sinproofed/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/slurp/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-10/01-birthday-pursuit/renounce/
There’s actually a ton of these. it’s hard to nail them all down.
I think Joyce also disliked Dina for all those same reasons until *very* recently. Joyce was so dismissive and judgmental of her because Dina is/was the type of person Joyce was trying very hard not be.
Yeah! Reading these comments, I realized just how similar they really are. Dina has justified reasons to dislike Joyce aside from them being the same though (I would also feel angry if someone got a doctors attention before me thanks to racial bias, or called me robot girl. Had a similar experience with the word Special ed).
I tend to dislike those are similar to me, looking in a mirror is not what I wanna do. I do think they could maybe get along if they just talked- don’t think they’ll ever really be friends tho
True! If Dina is so non-interested in Joyce she shouldn’t have been eves-dropping in hopes of drama and she definitely shouldn’t have butted in to the autism conversation. Right now she is helping her girlfriend keep a secret from Joyce and apparently delighting in it. Making snide comments, hinting, sharing looks and rude comments in front of Joyce’s back. Just nasty.
I couldn’t come up with a less charitable reading of Dina’s character if I tried. This is bordering on slander.
This is nonsense.
It’s in text, therefore it’s libel, not slander. 😛
Dina is also helping Joyce “keep a secret” from Becky if we’re accepting your apparent position that everyone owes everyone else the innermost details of their lives whether they want to share them or not.
I don’t know what your beef is with Dina, and she’s not a perfect person by any means, but wow yikes you can’t seem to stop being vicious about her. I’ll be flagging your violent comments and moving on at this point.
Wait, if Dina repeated the third grade, is she actually older than the rest of the cast?
I think it was stated back during her and Sarah’s shared birthday that she was on the older end of the freshman scale, and older than most of the cast – she turned 19 in Mid-Octoberish. Not an unheard of age for freshmen by any means, but this revelation does contextualize that fact a bit. (I think Sarah, Rachel, Ruth, and Carla at the very least are all older than her, being at least sophomores.)
Ah, you may be right, and yeah, Ruth’s I thiiiink 20.
Ruth just turned 21. As evidenced by how she is drinking because it is now legal and not reacting with her meds (yet. That she knows of.)
Right, true, good catch.
Potentially, but not necessarily if she began earlier. I remember when I was in kindergarten that some kids were 4-5 and some were 6, depending on if they went to pre-K or not. If she started earlier, than it’d even out, being held back.
Yeah, by about a year in most cases.
US school districts do not all have a single cut-off date and age for entry. There literally is one year of difference between the school district with the latest cut-off date for admission to first grade (a minimum age of 6 years, 9 months) and the one with the earliest (a minimum age of 5 years, 9 months).
In addition, many districts allow children to arbitrarily start a year later or earlier than they otherwise would have, especially if their birthday falls close to the cut-off date.
And about 1/10 of all students in America repeat a year before entering high school.
And this is all before we get into the issue of some students possibly starting college a little later than “immediately after graduating high school” or graduating early due to taking loads and loads of classes above and beyond what’s required.
So, in conclusion: realistically speaking, your average freshman dorm will contain multitudes, and they were not all born within 365 days of each other.
This is probably more true for Big Name schools than state universities, but it’s true at all of them.
Dina and Sarah shared a birthday. I don’t think Dina’s age was directly stated, but no one said anything about Dina and Sarah being the same age, and Dina pointed out that she was “now a year older than [Joyce]”, so I think that means she’s 19 now, but started college at 18.
Dina and Sarah share a birthday, one year apart. Sarah’s 20, so Dina’s 19.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/quickmath/
I know my school district put the cut-off date as September 1. A kid born in August would be the youngest in their class, but a kid born in September of the same year would be the oldest in the following class, even though they’re both “the same age”.
Autistic, and yeah, honestly, I get where Dina’s coming from. This is something the two have in common, but their experiences are greatly different, and Joyce very recently subjected Dina to the microaggression of calling her a “robot”, something Dina mentioned here, something Joyce has never apologized for. She’s also infantilized Dina multiple times, but at least that I think she has maybe said sorry for. It’s been a hot minute since Joyce’s party.
I do think the two can talk about this, but it isn’t going to be right now, and I do think that in addition to apologizing, Joyce should also consider not keeping this a secret from Becky if Dina’s going to take her feelings on it seriously. Dina’s not someone who really has the luxury of “masking” her autism, and that’s as big a part of this as anything else.
Dina has aggressed Joyce too, and sees no need to apologize because she was, ultimately, just being herself. The problem isn’t that the onus of apology falls on Joyce. The problem is that they don’t see eye to eye in general, despite that they have both tried for reason of being in the same friend group.
This is one pairing that is doomed to fail, because their backgrounds–not their personalities– are just too different.
I’m not sure if I would call Joyce’s masking a *luxury*, rather than a *survival trait that was forced upon her*.
Probably via both mental *and*, given the ‘spare the rod spoil the child’ attitude of a lot of fundie communities, at least some degree of physical abuse.
Remember the family she grew up with.
Yes, and to someone who lacks the option it looks like a luxury
Analogy time: Hi, I’m bi. Most of the biphobia in the queer community is rooted in the idea that bi people have “passing privilege” and therefore go through life on queer easymode. It’s not true, as the stats on MH in the bi community shows (for those who don’t want to look it up: bi people have worse outcomes on EVERY measure of mental health and wellbeing than gay or lesbian people. The only group in the queer community worse off from a mental health and wellness pov is trans people. Reason being, Ls and G’s can go to queer spaces and find acceptance. Bi people largely don’t have a space we can go for acceptance. L&G folks treat us as straight posers and the straights treat us as queer so we’re hated everywhere. But to L and G folks- we have the *option* to pass as straight, and that looks pretty sweet from where they sit), but perception and reality can differ greatly, especially to someone who doesn’t have the option of trying a particular poison pill.
Dina is wrong that passing is a luxury, but her resentment of Joyce is partly rooted in the idea she has this luxury Dina doesn’t.
Yeah, being bi is great. You get to be called a liar and a manipulative scumbag no matter who you’re talking to.
Having to hide part of (or the entirety of) who you are every minute of every day until you no longer even know for sure which parts are you… is not a luxury.
It might confer some privilege, but that comes at the cost of quite a lot.
I do not disagree with that, and to tie it into queer topics, coming out of the closet is done for a reason, because the mask is a damaging thing, but it’s still like the X-Men and the Morlocks. They’re both mutants, but one side is able to go to the grocery store without people giving them shit for it, so to speak.
Again “it might confer some privilege” as I said.
That doesn’t make it a luxury.
“I do not have the luxury of ___” is a figure of speech that shouldn’t be taken this literally, honestly. The conferred privilege is the luxury being spoken of here. Does that make my point any more clear? Sorry if that sounds rude, but I am getting the feeling you’re shadowboxing an opponent that isn’t actually there and that we agree on this.
Your point was clear. I don’t misunderstand you, I disagree with you.
“Here, put these 50lb weights on your wrists and ankles, and then also put on this raggedy backpack full of smaller weights we had laying around. Now, if any of those weights fall out, they’ve got a little sound chip in ’em that screams rude words, so people around you will probably get pretty upset with you about that. Oh, and don’t forget to put on this little earpiece that constantly whispers targeted insults at you, so you’ll be distracted. And don’t fucking complain even a little bit, because you’re lucky to have all this stuff.”
That’s basically what it sounds like to call masking a luxury.
On one hand Dina has a point and I sympathize with her situation which sounds similar to my situation growing up. I didn’t have to repeat a grade though my school tried to get me institutionalized (i had been bullied so bad that i said i wanted to kill myself it was 6th grade i was 11) I guess this is a service but the damn so called crisis team the school sent billed my parents instead of the school and our insurance didnt cover that, after that I had never had access to any services, and was labled a problem, it wasnt until College when I was finally diagnosed with ADD and Grad School when I was diagnosed with autism.
On the other hand I don’t have anything… Dina cleay doesnt like Joyce. Joyce needs to see psychologist hopefully her healthcare covers it.
Bold of her to assume that Joyce wasn’t bullied and didn’t just “forgive” it while growing up because that is what she was taught to do. Hard to say with Joyce being home schooled and social interaction was probably severely limited. I just wouldn’t put it past her former self to do something like that.
As much as I understand Dina not wanting to talk to Joyce about this, I sort of feel like she is continuing to take out her frustration about Joyce being diagnosed and her not being able to be diagnosed on the wrong person. Ever since Joyce mentioned the diagnosis, Dina has been accusatory and dismissive of any issues Joyce has (and while Joyce started the conversation here, Dina was the one pressing it earlier). Saying that you don’t want to talk to someone about something and demeaning someone else’s experiences are two different things. On a side note, this feels like trying to pair a cat and a dog together, and is not going well.
In panel 3, Dina’s mention of being called a robot. Think back on who called her that, I believe before her diagnosis, something Joyce has yet to apologize for in any way, shape, or form, yet she’s just kind of assuming Dina and her are buddies on this. We sure Dina’s the one being bold here?
I am not defending Joyce’s actions surrounding the previous treatment of Dina. Dina hasn’t been this aggressive in belittling Joyce until the diagnosis. It makes me think that the trigger wasn’t the bullying but the diagnosis. She could say a lot of things, such as we are not friends enough to talk about it, directly mention the stuff that Joyce has done (if Joyce does have autism, mimicking how others treat Dina or not realizing how her actions/words could be perceived could be part of it), or just say that it is a frustrating topic that she doesn’t want to talk about. Instead she belittles Joyce’s experience. Two wrongs don’t make a right. There are ways of handling this without being passive aggressive or using snide comments.
As a small, very minor correction, Joyce isn’t diagnosed *yet*. A doctor who knows an autistic person and recognized some stuff told her to talk to somebody else about maybe seeing if she might be autistic.
The inciting incident for dina’s current behaviour was joyce calling her a robot. People like saying rhat the two haven’t been friends which i find very strange. They’ve both acted fairly friendly to each other in the past and thought there has been friction it’s pretty much putely about joyce being deeply religious and dina not and them playing that up around each other. Before that morbing they both trusted and cared for each other even if they weren’t the closest friends in the friend group.
But the friend group has also constantly subjected dina to ableist microaggressions. These aren’t malicious or anything but they do add up and and when dina go to joice to ask about their uppbringing out of concern for both of them joice calls her a robot which is is in practice a slur. Like yeah dina’s approach to asking her about their uppbringing was not the best but that was still an uncalled deep cut that pretty much crushed their relationship. The fact that joice found out about her possible diagnosis that same day is just an unfortunate coincidence.
I forgot the timing on that. If that’s the case, that would definitely contribute more than I thought to this whole scenario. I’ve personally seen Joyce and Dina as acquaintances but not really friends. Joyce seems (or seemed, the traumatic events seem to have changed her) to be friendly to most people, like a Labrador retriever.
They absolutely are friends. They’re just not the tightest friends in the group and that comment was, to dina, a deep betrayal of that friendship. They still can patch things up but ot’s gonna have to fall on joice to at first understand why what she said is wrong which can take a while since, to be fair to her, she’s probably also associating with dina’s intrusion of her privacy and subsequent causing of pain.
I would not consider them friends at all. They appear to share a set of friends but are not friends. As far as I can see Sarah, Amber and Becky are her friends.
Dina’s has mostly been neutral, horrified or hostile in regards to Joyce interaction with few friendly interactions.
This. I never considered Joyce and DINA friends. THIS IS EXACTLY how I have been reading it
They are super, duper not friends. This is confusing at points because Joyce is friendly even to people she is not friends with! But Dina dislikes Joyce a lot, and has communicated this indirectly and also semi-directly, and recently, very, very directly.
I don’t get how people thing Dina and Joyce were ever friends they never liked eachother. Joyce thought Dina was creepy wierd and was insulting her entire belief system and considered her an idiot because of her anti science beliefs.
They showed very little interest in eachother outside sharing a love of Becky
Because dina has always shown warmth towards joice whenever she’s not frustrated about her anti-evolution talk?
It doesn’t seem that?way to me she was cordial but she’s that way towards everyone. It doesn’t seem like it. She is not a very warm intimate person. Maybe it’s just my reading and I treat people differently than she and other people do.
No, you’re right, Dina is at best indifferent to Joyce/ willing to tolerate her existence for Becky’s sake, and at worst disdains her for her beliefs and manner. This has been shown countless times, as far as I’m concerned.
So, my initial reaction to this was that Dina’s reaction here feels a bit uncalled for. Joyce is coming to her for advice, essentially, and trying to establish some common ground, and Dina responded by kinda diminishing what she’s going through and turning it into a competition – and then I realized I was dangerously close to using the phrase “oppression olympics” unironically, punched myself in the head, and checked my privilege.
My experience with autism has been a fairly positive one, in large part due to the fact that I am a white, cisgender man. And as is often the case for white men, I am prone to getting a bit defensive when it is suggested that a POC may have had a harder time of it than me. Of course Dina has had a rougher experience than Joyce, and of course she’s not particularly enthusiastic to compare notes on the subject. And, of course, while Joyce’s anxieties about this are valid, it’s not Dina’s responsibility to educate Joyce, or to babysit her through this learning process. All things considered, Dina is actually being remarkably polite in this strip.
P.S. Unrelated, but hey Joyce, it was actually Sarah who suggested that. Jennifer was visibly confused.
Gonna be real here, I was kind of hoping to preempt some of the inevitable “Dina is being a butt” comments with this, but then it took me like half an hour to write and I fear I am too late.
Pretty much everyone in this comic is being a butt, to some degree or other. You have to grade on a curve.
There’s nothing polite about Dina’s response and she and you are wildly underestimating how much this HAS affected Joyce, who’s been written as blatantly autistic for years and years, and it was never difficult to see that it was a much more significant issue for her than either Dina or Joyce herself seem to realize. Dina has struggled more, there’s no question of that, but Joyce didn’t even get to KNOW she was autistic until this point in her life. Isn’t that also pretty damned awful? Does it have to be downplayed just because Dina’s experiences were even more awful? I sure don’t think so.
I get where Dina is coming from emotionally but I think autistic people should stick together when possible and this was a shockingly cruel thing for her to say to Joyce. Of course it isn’t Dina’s responsibility to educate or “babysit” Joyce but there was nothing wrong with Joyce WANTING TO TALK TO ANOTHER AUTISTIC PERSON NOW THAT SHE JUST FOUND OUT SHE’S AUTISTIC, there is nothing polite or okay about Dina’s response whatsoever, and Dina does not owe Joyce a conversation or education or “babysitting”, she DOES owe Joyce a serious apology. They absolutely have common ground, they do not have to be precisely the same to understand each other, and the only thing I’m more disappointed in than Dina right now moment is this comments section.
As for you, stop beating yourself up for being white, cis, and male. It isn’t helping anyone. I’m none of the those things, had a worse time with autism than you but much better than Dina, and oppression olympics is a very real phenomenon that is often deliberately weaponized within communities. Yes, there are people who have it much worse or much better than others, but discounting other people’s problems because there are other people whose problems are worse is just disgusting behavior full stop. I somehow am so many types of oppressed that it’s almost silly, and all I can think is here is “‘check your privilege’ my ass.” Regardless of how many disadvantages you don’t happen to have in life, your experiences matter. You can understand that there are people who have it worse without disallowing yourself to care about the problems you DO have and it’s gross that there are people and communities that push people to think otherwise.
This is a serious problem with privilege theory in action: that it frames situations in which some people are disadvantaged, as situations in which others have special advantages. This only fuels the flames of collective human suffering and impedes actual progress and change.
You deserve better friends than the ones you must have. I hope you get an upgrade someday.
I’m just gonna say Yes to ALL of this.
Joice called dina an ableist slur like this morning.
Joyce called Dina the exact thing Dina said hurts her feelings in this very arc.
Yeah, but Dina frowned, so…
Okay, first of all, there’s no need to insult or make judgements about my personal life. Rude.
Second of all, I feel I should clarify some things. I am NOT “beating myself up” about being a white cis man. There is a difference between hating myself and acknowledging – and working to overcome – my own biases and the limits of my experience.
I am also NOT SAYING that Joyce’s experiences – or my own, or anyone else’s – aren’t valid; just that Dina’s experiences and feelings are also valid and should be considered. Joyce is not Dina’s favorite person right now, and it’s okay for her to be, shall we say, touchy around her.
Finally, regarding “oppression olympics,” I have only ever seen that term used by conservatives as a way to dismiss systemic critique or accusations of bigotry. Obviously, there are some people who use their marginalized or disadvantaged status to score points and exclude other marginalized people, but those are never actually the people I’ve seen this term used to demonize. Maybe the term has a more benign usage, but that has been my experience.
Oh, and third (or fifth?): To rebut your argument about privilege, framing privilege as strictly being a lack of disadvantage is just dishonest. Certainly, there are disadvantages that marginalized groups have, but there are also advantages that are bestowed by privilege and denied to the marginalized – wealth, connections, access, opportunities. This isn’t because it’s a zero-sum game and every disadvantage must have a corresponding advantage; it’s because cisheteronormative white-supremacist patriarchy has spent the last few centuries (at least) rigging the game in every conceivable way.
👏👏👏 wish I could upvote this
Well, the “I punched myself in the head”, even if clearly not literal, does give weight to the “beating yourself up” concept.
well, sarah suggested to talk to dina, not jen lol
As somebody who has High Functioning Autism myself, I like how they show the wide range the spectrum has. I do think Joyce should talk to somebody about being Autism, but she needs it fully explained to her first by a professional, how wide that spectrum is and how it has effected people.
Joyce is on the very high end of high functioning, while Dina is on the lower end of high functioning, at least from what I can gather from her interactions with others. I’m closer to Dina on the scale (im also Asexual) however im exceptional at masking and faking social skills, makes me exceptional at customer service as long as confrontation doesn’t happen, im only ever my real self when im alone in my room. Tip for those who are trying to learn how to Mask, Playing D&D helps a lot, its essentially acting but the audience is very small, and you can do it Online where they will only hear your voice, so you don’t gotta worry about making the right face or worrying about doing the right thing with your hands.
Personally, I found training myself and having others try to train me, like a dog, to pretend to be something they found more palatable, kind of a nightmare, and I’d rather die than ever bother again. If someone has a problem with me, that’s how I know to cut ties and move on, because they’re not worth knowing.
I want to say something like “I’m glad some people who want to do this have resources” and in your case I see that it helps with your job, but I cannot help but think that the better answer, in most circumstances where this isn’t directly necessary for personal safety, would be to just love ourselves even a little bit.
The idea that you are only ever your real self when you’re alone in your room is horrifying. You deserve better than that. All of us do.
Last paragraph, all that.
Yeah. Some of my favorite reading has been the work of John Elder Robison, about his life growing up “free range” — undiagnosed, and finding what worked for him. So important to just BE.
I’ve found that training myself and have others train me “like a dog” has made it easier for me to mask and relate to people I’d otherwise alienate by acting like a fucking weirdo. I’ve always been open about being on the spectrum, but being able to trick myself and other people into acting normal is WAY more useful than “being myself”
Don’t advocate for that shit. It’s creepy.
Re: “training”, hai PTSD trigger 😖
Thank you so much for saying it, the dog training stuff is so traumatic.
Woooow I rarely get mad at Dina but regardless of her own past this was REALLY shitty behavior from her. That was a HUGE dick move. Also, her assessment of how little Joyce’s autism allegedly affects her is DEFINITELY not accurate, even if it’s true that Joyce wasn’t bullied about it.
Also, it’s horrible that Dina was denied resources, but I think it’s similarly horrible that Joyce never even got to know that they existed or that they could have helped her.
Joyce was admittedly a jerk to Dina recently, I forget precisely in what way, but this was really, REALLY gross of Dina and as an autistic person myself I’m actually kind of angry in real life about it lmao
It has yet to be established that Joyce is actually autistic. I’m extremely skeptical of this.
…Wow, this is a comment I genuinely didn’t expect to see.
This is, as they say, not it, chief
Could you elaborate a little?
Your comment is so obviously wrong that it doesn’t warrant elaboration.
I will, since they won’t:
– Not being diagnosed doesn’t mean she doesn’t have autism. It’s a very tough diagnosis to get (especially as an adult, especially as a woman, and in Dina’s case especially as a woman of colour) and many people choose not to get a formal diagnosis for many reasons. It can be used to oppress you, can be brought up in child custody hearings, and several other things I don’t feel like listing but encourage you to google.
– “I’m extremely skeptical of this” is an invalidating thing to say. Now, you’re talking about a character who isn’t real and can’t have hurt feelings about what you say, but this kind of thing is said to neurodivergent people All The Time to minimize and invalidate the very real struggles we have. Usually because A) “You don’t look like you’re struggling” or B) “No, you’re just weird”.
A) Happens because we’re taught from a very young age to “mask” and hide the ways in which we are struggling.
B) Happens because people want to dislike us/bully us but don’t view themselves as the kind of person who would bully someone with a “real” condition. So they decide we don’t have one.
– Lastly, whether or not it has “been established” Joyce plainly displays autistic and neurodivergent traits. Enough so that no one in her life was even surprised. Enough so that she personally is reckoning with the possibility as a real likelihood. It’s a little wild to think that you, a person who views her from the outside, knows more than she does from inside her own (admittedly imaginary) mind.
I hope that helped.
I get that you’re pointing out that joice hasn’y had her diagnosis yet, only a referral but it reads like you’re saying we shouldn’t believe her without proof.
I’m a writer and an English major. I’m approaching this as a textual problem because Dumbing of Age is, in fact, a text. So, what is the textual evidence that Joyce is autistic? We have Joyce’s second hand account of her examination by a doctor who is neither a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Is it possible the doctor was correct? Of course. But it’s also possible that the doctor is wrong. As Nova said above, it is also an extremely difficult to make. I would never presume to tell a person in real-life that he or she is or is not autistic because I am not an authority on mental health. My only point here is that the evidence for Joyce’s being autistic is far from iron-clad, and is still, for now, an open-ended question.
From another writer and English major, even if I take you in good faith (and I’m honestly not inclined to), you really came across as being extremely gatekeeper-y about this. At best, that could’ve been you communicating poorly, but it didn’t feel that way and I frankly doubt that was actually what was happening.
And do you seriously think THIS AUTHOR would raise this question only for the answer to be “lol nah she’s actually not?” I could MAYBE see it going in a direction where Joyce’s issue isn’t autism but is something else, but this character has been written the same way for years, has been interpreted this way by a lot of readers for years, and I can’t think of anything that makes more sense here than autism.
I’m not sure if you’re being disingenuous with the comments section or yourself, but maybe try not being disingenuous at all. Tends to go better for everyone.
Being a writer qualifies nobody for anything. Most writers are dogshit at what they do. Using it as credentials in a conversation about autism is about as useful as saying you’re a licensed driver.
It’s not being used as a “credential” in any way. They were simply explaining their approach to this FICTIONAL STORYLINE and FICTIONAL CHARACTER. Don’t pretend you didn’t get exactly what they meant; shame on you and the others biting their head off in this comment string.
Yeah, you’re not worth getting riled up at or explaining myself to. Not until you learn to treat others like people.
Gotta love people out here tone policing the neurodivergent crowd when we’re actively discussing neurodivergence. The irony is too strong. Sorry you got hit by the infantilising “shame on you” and accusations of pretending to misunderstand something you plainly understood just fine, Taffy.
Dash there seems to be pupset.
I’m not super concerned about it, Nova. They’re a blatant hypocrite, liar, and bigot, and the most they’ll say to those accusations is some generic dismissive “Um, who are you?” type of thing. Their invocation of shame is worth about as much as sand in a desert, and not half as useful. Maybe they’ll grow up some day and get over their delusions, but it’s not our job to coddle them.
Don’t forget the part where they come back ’round a day (or more) later to leave some snippy, holier-than-thou remark because they’re sure you won’t see it. +1 on the bigot part, too.
I said it’s a difficult diagnosis to GET not tough to actually diagnose. There’s a lot of stigma, medical neglect, sexism, racism, and ableism to contend with on your path to a diagnosis.
Please don’t misrepresent my view after I spent a decent amount of time typing it up for you.
Maybe they just didn’t get what exactly you were saying? Maybe you could have explained better? Maybe it was poor wording on their part (particularly since a word seems to be missing?) Everyone’s so quick to assume evil intent from others in this fucking comment section, it’s cringeworthy.
Maybe you should be as charitable in interpretation toward those who DON’T share your views as you are toward those who DO?
I said please, and I re-explained. If you took that as me “assuming evil intent” then that’s a you problem and I won’t be apologizing for a simple statement of fact and an easy-to-meet request.
Couldn’t care less what you find cringey, stranger.
Similarly, there’s only minimal textual evidence that Dina is autistic. Just her portrayal and her comments about trying to get a diagnosis.
Authorial intent seems very clear in both cases though.
Marvelman, as I just said about you in another comment thread, I can’t stop you from being the autism police, but trying to be the autism police does still make you scum. PLEASE go find another gate to keep.
Outrageous overreaction from you. Reread your responses to this person and feel some fucking shame, will you? They explained their approach to this and you STILL had to double down and shit on them and accuse them of acting in bad faith. What they offered as a justification for their initial post made perfect sense- it’s not 100% established that FICTIONAL CHARACTER Joyce is actually autistic. That’s all. No need to keep going for their throat, Jesus.
This is the second time you’ve told someone you don’t even know to “feel shame”.
I think you need to go outside.
Joyce called dina an ableist slur this (or last) morning, which affected her deeply.
And Joyce barely knew anything about this, had just been woken up, was in extreme physical pain, and continues to struggle with having a very sheltered upbringing. They both owe each other an apology but I’m certainly more upset with the person with more knowledge choosing to be cruel than the person who knew less and, while nowhere near 100%, said something really hurtful. This also really seemed to happen while they both autism’d right past each other. Joyce seemed to think Dina was implying that Joyce was a “bad kid” rather than making the point that NO ONE should be hitting their children, then she made a terrible word choice that I felt was pretty clearly an attempt to communicate “you’re super good at following rules, so why would your parents have ever had reason to hit YOU?”, something Dina didn’t understand. It’s not her fault that she didn’t, but why are we all acting like Joyce said this out of malice while in a totally normal state of mind when that is absolutely what happened?
Yes, i’m not disagreeing with any of this. It was not out of malice but the effect is still that dina saw one of her friends call her an ableist slur. They do both need to apologize but i think joyce needs to be the first to do so.
Joyce and Dina weren’t friends at the time of the conversation, nor have they ever been based on… the entire comic before it.
Not even “why would your parents have ever had reason to hit YOU?”, but “that’s the only possible reason your parents wouldn’t have hit you”.
OTOH, she wouldn’t have said it that way to Dorothy, so the prejudice was still there even if it wasn’t done in malice.
So, it was gross of Dina to point out that Joyce was engaging in ableist behavior?
It was gross of Dina to be cruel to Joyce, who has had very little chance to learn about any of this. It’s sympathetic but it was a cruel thing to do. They both owe each other an apology. That’s really all there is to it.
aah, you must be this traumatised to enter.
Joyce is sufficiently traumatised, tbh, but in the wrong currency.
Ooh boy I warmed myself with that fire from comments on this cold Monday morning.
Ps I belong to the camp that Dina is kinda ass
i think there may be a theme in this chapter of people coming down a bit hard and then having to go like ‘well, that was justified in direction, but maaaybe not in magnitude?’ Dorothy/Jennifer, Amber/Booster, Dina Joyce- they’re not wrong, but also, oof.
Yeah. I keep reminding myself that they are all still young and learning (also all probably highly traumatized). Not sure that you ever really stop learning though.
I can understand why Dina resents being infantilized. It’s just… she’s adorable.
As someone who has been asked if I am in high school even when I am twice that age (due to appearance not actions), I can understand why that gets frustrating. At least guys can normally grow beards to get by that, while those of us that are women get to deal with being told that it’s a compliment.
I actually got confused for a High schooler WELL into my 20s, but that’s because I work at a Wendy’s. I guess most people assume a college graduate would be doing bigger and better things.
you can find someone cute without necessarily infantilizing them lol, though i assumed around that age depending on the person not as many males would find it as endearing as girls who would take ‘cute’ as more of a compliment
Yeah, she is very much adorable. And just for the record, it’s totally OK to bring this kind of childlike affection into your relationships.
The problem starts when the relationship actually operates on that coercive, childlike level.
…Is it too early for a game?
If not, here goes:
Joyce’s comfort food is chicken fingers. What’s yours?
Couscous and rice milk are very soothing to me.
So are tuna melts and chocolate milkshakes.
So is macaroni ‘n’ cheese with penny hot dogs fried in butter and just a little catsup.
And straight unsweetened dark baking chocolate, of course.
And Postum with whole milk.
And chicory coffee with blackstrap molasses.
And black tea with jasmine and honey and lemon.
And Genmaicha.
And many wild plants picked roadside.
…Any one of those will just bring me back to happy, homey memories.
What about you? What foods make you feel calm and safe?
Also, the hacked muzak and I felt it was time for some ACTUAL soothing muzak…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRHRtF-t40k
How could I forget white miso soup with wakame seaweed and soft tofu? Nothing better when you’re feeling sick.
Bacon. I will eat an entire pound of bacon in one sitting if allowed. My dad always made it before school, said it would “make me fit in better”. He wasn’t necessarily wrong, since I was Bacon Kid for like 3 years cuz I’d always have some on-hand.
That is AWESOME.
I eat a shit ton of goldfish (The cracker, not the animal) but that’s more outta boredom.
Crab is my favorite food and I eat it every year on my birthday. But because of that (and how expensive it is) I don’t eat it very often.
I love Cheesy Parmesan Chicken Pot Pies and eat them whenever I don’t feel like cooking dinner.
I really really love Fetuccini Alfredo. Can’t get enough of it.
Also Mac and Cheese rules. I could eat it all day.
Hot Chocolate’s good sometimes
I like making chicken Quesadillas though I feel like I could probably make them better.
Oh Fried Rice rules.
I’ll probably think of 10 more but I’ll stop here.
Oh fucking eggs. I love eggs. I will eat a ton of eggs.
Ohh, yeah. All of the above, please!
When my family used to get together and visit my grandmother (back when she was still alive) we would put out traps and catch crabs. She lived by the beach. And dig for clams, but we had more luck with crabs. Boiled, cracked, eaten fresh… sweet succulence itself.
Not in this thread…
Comfort foods (positive emotions) for me mostly involve cooked tomatoes. Pasta marinara, tikka masala, tomato soups, stews with stewed tomatos. Also Dr Pepper and tuna casserole. Safe foods (sensory and trauma issues) are things like butter noodles, butter rice, tuna mac (if I make it), grilled cheese, and pineapple or peaches.
Mmm, yum yum yum! Hot tomato soup with crackers, please! :-9
Damn, I haven’t had peaches in years. Might have to hunt some down.
Macaroni and cheese with sweet peas and seasoned ground beef, Mom-style. I’ve always got room for at least a small bowl of burger mac with peas. And it’s cheap, so it’s never hard to get.
That sounds just heavenly.
Cereal, Rice Omelets, McNuggets (NOT chicken fingers), corndogs, mustard (ketchup is optional). 😋💛🌭😊
Warm and fuzzy feelings back… 🥰
Oooh, rice omelets! That sounds PERFECT right about now! How do you make them?
Chop up half an onion, soak it in vegetable oil and a pinch of baking soda in a large pan. Heat on medium for 8 minutes or until onions are just about to caramelize. Add two tablespoons of ketchup, a teaspoons of soy sauce, 2 tablespoons of chicken stock and stir well. I corporate rice and fold in multiple times until heated thoroughly. Form it into a “log” shape to put into the omelet and remove from heat.
For the omelet, whisk two eggs and two tablespoons of chicken stock. Pour into a hot greesed large pan. Just seconds before the egg is cooked, transfer the rice log to the center of the egg, and fold the whole thing on it’s side. Transfer to plate, and decorate with ketchup.
It’s good for when I have the time and ingredients, but for me, in terms of comfort food, few could compare to just dipping a toasted corndog in mustard. Simple, easy and delicious! 😋💛🌭😊
Ooh, wow, that sounds exquisite! And MUCH more complicated than anything I could make! But yum yum yum!
…What does the baking soda do for the onions?
While cooking it hitches a ride on the oil to help break down the onion cellular structures, releasing more natural flavor and sweetness!
Kitchen science! I love it!
Mac and cheese. It’s funny, in every shitty moment in my life. Mac and cheese has always been there for me.
I remember my dad used to be very psychologically abusive towards my mom and he’d always make her cook specific dishes. When he left it took her a while (about two months, probably more) to self deprogram this specific need to cook certain dishes and one night mom just looked at me and went “what the hell am I doing? Do you even like what I’m cooking? What do YOU want to eat? We don’t have to eat this garbage I’m cooking. He’s not here we can eat whatever we want.” She made Mac and cheese that day and over 20 plus years later, she has NEVER cooked any of my dad’s favorite dishes again.
She makes a killer Mac an cheese though. And and time life knocks me down (more than I care to admit) she’s always there with a bowl of it.
What a powerful story. And what an amazing, resilient woman to have in your life. That Mac and cheese sounds MAGIC.
It’s funny how macaroni and cheese is a core staple for so many of us.
Everyone can enjoy it, barring extreme examples. It has a broad appeal, and usually isn’t too hard on the wallet. Plus it’s carbs and cheese, which I’m pretty sure humans were deliberately evolved to prize above all else.
i do like chicken fingers but i can prolly handle a bit more spice than joyce
tteokbokki is good though prolly too many carbs (even with the ‘instant’ kind versus fresh lol)
Perhaps the carbs can make an exception for tteokbokki!
;-D
…You know, I’ve never tried it? Now, I have to go find some to try!
My favorite comfort food is probably fresh-baked bread. Nothing fancy, just warm white bread with butter (or butter substitute, which while I’m not vegan I do actually prefer.) It’s nostalgic, it’s not too hard to make (though it can be a bit time-consuming), you can eat it with your hands, and I’m never not in the mood for it.
Ooh, I do love baking bread! Before I messed up my hands, I used to bake all the time. I’ve spent several nights at other people’s houses just doing nothing but baking loaf after loaf after loaf of bread, all night long. The bread project just kept growing!
My favorite bread recipe is Cuban bread: a white ball-shaped loaf, with a pan of water in the oven underneath it, so the steam will make the crust flaky.
Donuts from the place 5 minutes from me. They’ve got the best donuts I’ve eaten in my entire life, bar none. The best ones are the ones with strawberry frosting and sugar crystals on.
Ooh, that sounds delish! Can you buy them when they are fresh baked? That’s what I love about Krispy Kreme: “Hot Donuts Now”!
Indeed I can! Granted, that means I have to be there around lunchtime, which is when they open and the donuts still are fresh baked, but the option is there.
Anything with pasta, noodles, or rice.
We have a spaghetti & meatball night, weekly. I love pho (especially when it’s raining) with an egg. Ramen is the bomb. Fish over rice is 10/10. This year I also learned how to make red beans & rice. Beef stroganoff.
My husband makes a mean sun-dried tomato tuscan pasta that we are both in love with. He also makes macaroni in tomato sauce if we can’t be bothered to cook for longer than it takes to boil water.
I also love cinnamon rolls and those Tombstone frozen pizzas. The year I spent without an oven was hell since I couldn’t eat my favorite garbage pizza.
Ooh, I sympathize! No oven makes it so hard to enjoy what you like!
Oh, but hot ramen with an egg when it’s cold and rainy outside sounds like heaven on earth. 🙂
First atheism, then autism…Dina steadfastly refuses to bond over ANY common ground wih Joyce. Even when presented the opportunity on a silver platter.
Honestly, I don’t buy it. I don’t buy that Dina would choose to completely ignore her Becky’s first and closest friend, and then shoot down any opportunities to get to know her further. They don’t bond over, say, Joyce PUNCHING OUT TOEDAD in defense of Becky. She seems to still believe Joyce is fundamentalist Christian. It’s just…weird. Forced. I want them to be friends.
But no, Joyce’s specific trauma doesn’t perfectly match the trauma Dina is looking for, so she dismisses her as privileged scum not worth talking to.
Another turn of the wheel, another nasty update where characters keep getting MEANER. Bring back Sal and Danny please.
Same!!!
I mean. Joyce has contributed to the infantilising and calling Dina a ‘robot’ so you know, maybe Dina doesn’t WANT to bond with her and it doesn’t really MATTER how much common ground exists if she doesn’t want to be friends with Joyce and isn’t particularly forgiving of the ways Joyce has slighted her previously just because Joyce is a forgiving person.
Dina has good reasons to not like Joyce, yes. I’m moreso complaining that EVERY single goddamn interaction Joyce has had recently feels like this: Joyce clearly looking for help, and everyone involved drops a pithy 1-3 panel judgment on her and mic drops.
These characters used to have fucking CONVERSATIONS. now it’s just a conga line of “fuck you Joyce, reason #47” from everybody except Joe. Dina makes sense individually, but I am exhausted by this pattern.
Hey, it’s someone with thoughts and opinions similar to mine.
Fair. Joyce herself has engaged in this also recently of people try to start a conversation and she doesn’t respond well. There’s been a lot of that in general from almost everyone and I too find it exhausting.
Yeah, it’s quite the predictable and sometimes boring pattern, but I understand where they’re coming from.
Joyce’s past as a preaching proxy has finally caught up with her, and detaching herself from her former fundamentalist identity is going to be quite the frustrating process.
Gotta remember that Joyce is autobiographical for Willis, so it could be that this is how things went down for him, or at least is how he remembers it going.
In her own case, Dina talks about the things that were done *to her* but in Joyce’s, about the things that *Joyce* does.
Dina does not owe Joyce a thing. Still, this statement of asymmetry sounds ironically and unfairly asymmetrical.
Becky should know. I feel she would know how to point out the right things to both of them.
Has it ever actually been established that Joyce is 100% autistic? What I remember is that she was examined once by someone who was not a mental health professional. But some people in the comments have taken this diagnosis as gold, so maybe I’m wrong. Could some kind soul please point me to the strip where Joyce’s autism was clearly established?
Okay, I found it: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/autism/.
I mean not to Start A Problem but I think people are going based on the fact this has been a widely established headcanon for the character to the point that it’s a widely established headcanon for the author which, while I’m pretty sure narratively she’s not going to get told she’s allistic, is a tweensy bit questionable yes.
Yeah, Willis has acknowledged that ‘is Joyce traumatized or autistic’ has been a common debate when the headcanons came up on this site for YEARS (and mentioned at least a few times he’s asked that question about himself) before it was directly addressed in-strip. Bringing it up at all felt like turning coding into text, especially since the barriers to formal diagnosis are pretty well-known and documented.
Can’t. There’s no such strip. People just have imperfect memories, no biggie.
I mean, she’s been written like an autistic person for years, and getting a professional diagnosis often does as much harm as good, sometimes much more harm. I’m autistic and relate to Joyce and that’s enough for me. If somebody wants to be the autism gatekeeper today, I can’t stop them, but I do think they’re scum.
People who make overblown accusations based on their misreading of someone’s conduct could also be considered pretty lacking in character, by some metrics. “Scum” is a totally unwarranted insult from you on scant basis, and you ought to be ashamed of indulging yourself in it.
Autistic and generally Team Dina for almost everything, but I’m Team Joyce today (although not in a way where I really like Dina less?). If Dina is this informed about autism, then even if she doesn’t like Joyce, she should understand that Joyce probably couldn’t have learned to be more tactful if nobody understood that she was predisposed to having difficulties with social skills. I don’t think she has to like Joyce, and if I were her I wouldn’t like Joyce both because of Joyce’s tactlessness to/about Dina and because Dina’s girlfriend is really transparently still in love with Joyce. I wouldn’t have even judged Dina for going “No, I still don’t like you and I’m bitter about how easy it was for you to get a diagnosis even though you have a milder version of our disability than I do”, but the way Dina put it makes it sound like Joyce doesn’t have the right to consider herself someone with this disability at all? Then again, maybe Dina didn’t really feel allowed to have these emotions unless she could justify them rationally, and that rationalization came out so cruel because she has all these negative feelings about Joyce that she doesn’t feel free to express and probably hasn’t even fully processed… I guess it probably isn’t fair to expect Dina to be tactful here either. I still don’t this particular expression of tactlessness, though.
On the other hand, I’m really fucking sick of trying to interact with some fandom community or whatever where half the people there are openly autistic and I’m still the one who doesn’t fit the vibe, I’m still the one who tries to connect with people only for them to stop replying forever a couple days later and I never even know what I did wrong, I’m still the one who people eventually just start treating like they don’t exist. So why is this happening? I have a bunch of other shit wrong with my head, but a lot of these people do, too. Why can these people get along with each other? What’s so different about me? If we’re the same, then why aren’t we the fucking same?
But on the other other hand, I wonder if my friend whose autism is more disabling than mine is thinks these things about me.
It’s not the cleanest response but it’s important to remember that dina feel recently beyrayed by joice. Someone she did consider a friend basically called her a slur after she asked her about her and her friend’s upbringing out of concern. She’s lashing out both about the ease of which joice got access to a diagnosis but more specifically about that which happened just this or last morning.
Yes, they DO both owe each other an apology today.
As someone who is autistic and was abused as a kid I found Dina’s questioning of Joyce about her upbringing to be invasive and insensitive. Joyce was equally insensitive back. They both acted poorly in that interaction, but neither had mean intentions.
I find it odd that commenter are picking sides, when really they’re as bad as each other (I.e. not that bad)
This is a good comment, thank you.
I do get exhausted by the weird “taking sides” that happens so often in response to this comic, like someone has to be 100% right or 100% wrong and if you disagree with something a character said or did it must mean you hate everything about them and disagree with everything they said.
Begging people to remember nuance. I can both agree that Dina’s desire for boundaries is valid, and think the way she expressed that desire is pretty dismissive no problematic.
Just as I can sympathize with Joyce simultaneously being told she’s obviously autistic by everyone she knows except the one person who also definitely has autism who is invalidating her experiences, while also agreeing Joyce has a lot of past “sins” so to speak to make up for with people like Dina that may make her interactions less than welcome.
It’s fiction about college students who historically tend to be a group with a lot of issues that make a lot of mistakes and it’s weird seeing people ascribe either perfection or villainy to slightly cartoonishly exaggerated stories of normal human experiences at an age where people are definitely going to have many flaws.
But then at the same time echo agreement IRL with some of those expectedly bad takes in a way that does shift into dismissing real people’s experiences. In a way where it stops being enjoying a comic that is fictional and starts turning into “this is a reminder how many people actually still think this way IRL.” :/
*that should say “and problematic” not “no problematic.”
All of this yes. Dina has plenty of other valid reasons to have an issue with Joyce and is by no means obligated to be her friend just because they’re both autistic, and Joyce is not really reading the room/being self aware by assuming this would automatically make them bond, BUT on the flip side, like you, I have experienced having my struggles completely invalidated by people who assume their own experiences must be more difficult or assume that my apparent ease at life must mean I have no real struggles.
It is hard enough experiencing ableism and lack of understanding from the able-bodied members of society, but it especially stings when it comes from within your own community in the form of lateral ableism, gatekeeping, competition over who has it worse, etc. these are people you would hope wouldn’t do that, because they should understand how harmful those attitudes are, yet many still do act this way towards fellow disabled people.
I don’t know if this is what your talking about, but I don’t see internet fandom forums as a place to make friends. Its a place to comment on a topics I’m interested in for as long as I’m interested in the topic. Also I assume the forums for one comic will die when the next comic is up and conversations are unlikely to carry over.
If someone on this forum tried to get to know me in any sort of real setting from the forum I might be freaked out.
Also you are less likely to notice those who are struggling socially more than you than the social butterflies of the forum.
Consider that it might just be the internet and not you.
I am largely talking about Discord servers and the like where most of the interaction is casual and off-topic and people are absolutely making friends, I am not always the one initiating these interactions, and I’m not even setting out to make friends? Theoretically I don’t even want more friends, I don’t have many but I don’t really have the emotional bandwidth to care about more people than this. I just keep finding myself in situations where a group or person is cool and it looks like friendship is going to happen. but… well, see above. I am not going, like, here, to try to make friends, I am going here to weigh in on fictional beefs and complain about ships I don’t like, this is not my trying to be human face at all
but thanks for assuming that having a disability that affects social skills means i can’t assess whether a social space includes normalized friend-making or not, you absolute shitstain. i don’t know why you thought this would be helpful. get fucked.
(@ anyone in this comments section who can’t tell if a social space includes normalized friend-making or not: you are okay and i’m not saying i’m better than you, i just hate it when people who don’t know me tell me i’m wrong about my own life because they’re filling in the blanks with something completely non-applicable)
Sorry.
While Dina tries to keep interactions peaceful because Becky and for peace itself, she doesn’t really owe her resources. And I know sharing it’s not about owing but mutual help beccause the world is hard enough as it is but at this moment of their lives they just clash too much.
Dina has a right not to pick the option that will exhaust her the most.
So I feel like a big problem with Comments Discourse for this comic is that people tend to treat every strip as if it is The End Point Of The Story. And to be clear, I get that impulse, because technically speaking, until the next Most Recent Strip uploads, it’s kind of true, and it can certainly FEEL very true in the moment given it’s The Most Immediate Thing we have to react to in the story.
But especially when one remembers that these are, in fact, deeply imperfect Kids who do not and will not always act in ways we personally approve of, I do think there’s a certain shortsightedness to reacting SO strongly all the time to Every Last Most Recent Thing when we do not yet have the fullest sense of where that thing stands in the greater context of the ongoing story, to say nothing of how giving one’s feelings time to simmer is just sort of a good idea for trying to produce Good Analysis just in general. Like…barring a larger context, this is just One Somewhat Gruff Conversation between Dina and Joyce, NOT A Definitive Treatise On The Morality Of All Discussions About Autism, and I dunno that we gain anything from treating it more like the latter than the former, y’know?
Oh, and before anyone asks? Yeah, I’m On The Spectrum.
really good comment, wish i could venmo you five dollars for this one
I have a whole collection of mortifying regrets if I want to do intense analysis of less than stellar interactions. These are just kids, doing close enough to the best they can with what they got, in a narrative structure, with jokes sometimes. Not like me, I should definitely still be obsessing over an interaction with a stranger 22 years ago.
THANK YOU!!! This articulates what I’ve been feeling for a while really well.
She’s built different
now both joyce and dina have experienced having their condition minimized by the other. they truly are bonding
Yesterday, 110 comments, today, 229, no wait, just refreshed, 256 already. Oof.
Y’all are clever people, you’ll work it out, play nice, see you tomorrow.
allistic people stop having uneducated opinions about autistic people’s lived experiences challenge (impossible)
I mean at this point I’ve just started assuming everyone in this comments section is autistic.
fair assumption, IMO.
I figure it’s a 50/50 shot. Either they are or they aren’t.
Honestly, I usually stop posting entirely when the topic turns to certain things – if other people do that, Im not surprised at the impression you got.
There sure are a lot of us here, so I see why you’d think that.
We autistics are like Stand Users — we just have this bizarre way of being drawn towards each other. 😮
Which is really interesting considering how our brains altogether display more diversity among themselves than the whole of the human species.
Got a better one.
Allistic people put up with the same shit they put autistic people through for literally even five fucking minutes challenge (insta-fail)
I’m not autistic, but I have CPTSD that has truly fucked my life into little bitty pieces because I kept getting deeply traumatized by people (like they were handing me off to each other like some kind of football), so maybe this isn’t the flex you seem to think it is.
I don’t think it’s any sort of “flex”. It’s me being rude to hypothetical people stepping out of their lane to weigh in on something they’ve never experienced and have no knowledge of. I’m absolutely not saying anyone’s trauma isn’t real, and it’s weird that you’d think I am.
I mean, Dina is somewhat wrong, somewhat not, there are many ways in which she and Joyce ARE in fact the same like ‘childish’ food interests, being infantilised, being mocked for autistic traits for years, not having access to resources until adulthood.
But she is also right that Joyce’s autism has not really been a source of trauma for her on its own. While Dina’s has always been much more overt. And you can’t really compare your best friend and family lovingly lightly teasing you over liking your food separated with years of targeted torment because you are unable to pretend to be neurotypical.
And regardless, Dina doesn’t have to be willing to talk to her about it or teach her about it. She’s still allowed to go ‘I don’t want to do that’.
… Given the family Joyce grew up with? I’m not so sure it HASN’T been a source of Trauma for her, she just didn’t know it was autism.
I cannot imagine a fundie household that expects every to fit a specific role is.. going to be great for an ND person growing up. You’re going to have to learn to mask hard, early, and *ALWAYS*, at all times.
Yeah, this. Joyce is good at masking, and as someone who’s closer to Dina than Joyce in my presentation I can understand where Dina is coming from that it would seem like being able to mask is a benefit, I should also point out (as a queer person who was closeted for years) that an autistic person masking is equivalent to a queer person staying in the closet. “Passing privilege” is no privilege at all since it’s associated with severe mental health effects, on top of existing prejudice.
But as a kid when my sibling who can mask very well got an ADHD diagnosis before me I felt a lot like Dina, so I can relate.
I recently went back and looked at at that restaurant conversation with John, Joycelene, Joyce, and Becky, because I was trying to remember if it was just John, who’d mocked Joyce for ordering off the children’s menu. Spoilers, it was all of them!
And what initially comes across as yeah, some light teasing—“Joyce, you can’t go to India, you’d starve to death”—turns into infantilization really, really fast, when Joyce said some things that annoyed John, and her food aversions became a justification for not taking her anger about Ross and the kidnapping and the gun seriously.
While I agree with people saying Dina is not obligated to “bond” with Joyce over this if she doesn’t want to, and that her own experience has obviously been different, I take issue with the idea that just because she realized her autism late and may not struggle as much with it as Dina, it somehow means she hasn’t experienced any trauma as a result of it.
While I don’t have experience with being autistic (as far as I know) I was diagnosed with ADHD VERY late (at 36) and also live with an invisible physical disability (diagnosed late as well at 30) and I know all too well that “passing” is not always the “privilege” it seems to be when it comes to mental or physical health issues.
Yes it means you don’t get infantilized the same way a very visibly disabled person might, but on the flip side, you constantly fail to meet people’s expectations of how you should behave or what you should be able to do because you “look normal.” Any failure to conform to the expected “normal” is seen as laziness, a lack of effort, a personal failing, because no one believes you have a valid reason to be struggling.
I see this debate a lot in the disability community, and I’ve experienced both visible and invisible disability. When I’ve needed to use a wheelchair or some other obvious mobility aide, I experienced discrimination (infantilization, being treated like furniture, assumptions I must be mentally as well as physically disabled and therefore must be unable to understand things, staring, etc). When I’m not using any mobility aides, while those particular types of discrimination happen way less, I experience significant amounts of disbelief: that there could be anything wrong with me, that I could need assistance, assumptions I must be lazy or faking, etc. And while most of it comes from abled people, some of it HAS come from within the disability community, from people who assume being invisibly disabled means I don’t experience any struggle and am just a lazy person co-opting an identity for sympathy, when I reality I’m experiencing things that may be different but also significantly challenging (such as severe chronic pain).
This kind of gatekeeping is generally discouraged in disability spaces because it’s not helpful. At all. It’s a form of internalized or lateral ableism, and it only serves to perpetuate the biased narratives abled people have about disability.
Now obviously this is a comic about teens/young adults and in that setting it’s realistic that Dina, a young person who has been overlooked, might take her frustration out on Joyce and might have resentment over Joyce’s seemingly “quick and easy” diagnosis. And frankly Dina as a character could use a flaw or two, no one is perfect, so I’m happy to see this possible step into addressing the idea of lateral ableism and hope it will be dealt with sensitively, in a way that shows the issue with this kind of gatekeeping. But the fact there are people in the comics going “yes Dina is right, Joyce hasn’t experienced trauma as a result of her autism,” shows just how persistent a problem this is and how much people lack an understanding of invisible disability still.
I’d also add: While racial bias in medicine is a VERY real problem, I think in this particular case, Dina is mistakenly thinking it was so easy for Joyce simply because she’s white, when clearly Joyce has also gone however many years (I forget how old they are) without being diagnoses as well until she HAPPENED to see a Dr. who has an autistic child. I’m betting had Dina gone to that same dr, she’d also have gotten a suggestion to seek diagnosis. Because frankly that’s often what it comes down to with things like this: luck. Women in general tend to be severely under diagnosed for MANY things: complex illnesses that occur more commonly in women and therefore have less awareness and study, and things like ADHD and autism in which study has primarily focused on boys and men.
While it’s very clear racial bias has played a role in Dina’s struggles to get a diagnosis (previous drs assuming she must be a ESL speaker because if her race and incorrectly attributing her communication issues to that) that doesn’t mean it’s *easy* for white women to get diagnosed. It just means they face one less barrier, but still face significant barriers.
Tl;dr Dina is correct in perceiving her own race has been a significant barrier Joyce has not faced, and that perhaps some past drs who dismissed Dina *might* not have dismissed someone like Joyce (again, sexism in medicine is a big issue too so it’s hard to say), but she is wrong to take out that frustration ON Joyce for getting lucky and getting a referral because she happened to see a dr who had a specific extra awareness of autism in women.
Her resentment is realistic and I agree it’s easy to see where it’s coming from, but her frustration is misplaced, and irl I encourage people to remember that and be careful when making assumptions about just how “easy” someone else might have it.
And sorry one last thing: that “passing privilege” people keep referring to, that Dina seems to imply is the biggest difference between them, is also a barrier *Dina* has not faced. It’s quite possible that had Joyce not happened to see a dr with personal direct familiarity with autism in women, she’d NEVER get diagnosed/have any awareness at all that she might be autistic. And that does not mean she must not experience enough issues from it to warrant worrying about it. It just means that it’s easy for someone like her to fall through the cracks because her symptoms are just mild enough that they’re frequently dismissed as “odd quirks.”
Speaking as someone who, again, was diagnosed with multiple things very late, just because someone seems to be managing fine without diagnosis or support with a particular issue does not mean that issue is causing no problems/trauma. The fact that I did well in school was one of the many factors that delayed my ADHD diagnosis, but it hid significant amounts of trauma, stress, depression, anxiety, etc. I was not “fine.” I was miserable. And eventually fell apart/burnt out from 3 decades of pushing through, and it’s taking a long time to put the pieces back together. Appearances can be deceiving, and as a society we’d really benefit from not making so many assumptions about the apparent “ease” or “success” of others with no real knowledge of what they’re going through, based solely on how their experience looks from the outside.
I am going to tack on a reply here that for clarification: I don’t think this means such teasing by family and friends has done Joyce no harm. Being teased and mocked can make you insecure about stuff and this has been something my own family has done to me unintentionally.
But Joyce’s trauma very much stems from being raised in an authoritative cult, where being autistic would have shaped her experiences differently, but, still is not the source of her trauma.
And as we have seen so far, Becky and John both wrote off her food stuff with amusement and endearment as just typical Joyce quirks, they weren’t complete dicks about it, so I am not going to assume they were actively cruel and evil about for years actually when that hasn’t been shown to be the case.
I am not saying Dina is being completely 100% fair but she also isn’t being 100% unfair either that Joyce’s autism is more of a sidenote amongst a bunch of other stuff while people generally liked or loved her, while for Dina, it has been the main story and she has experienced a lot of social rejection for it.
Teasing isn’t the only way autism may have negatively affected Joyce though. It may just be the most obvious way, but this feels kind of like saying “because someone did well in school, their ADHD is just a side note that didn’t cause much trauma.”
The simple fact of having a ND brain and trying to interact with a NT world can be an incredible constant source of stress, even if someone outwardly appears to be coping “well.” The simple fact that Joyce has all these particularities suggests to me she experiences mental/emotional discomfort due to her autism beyond her friends teasing her.
Also I really disagree with the downplaying of the impact of “friendly teasing” here. Someone does not have to be intentionally cruel or evil in their teasing/mockery for it to leave lasting wounds. A constant reminder that your behavior is odd (behavior that you feel strongly compelled to do and that not doing causes you considerable distress) and mocking of it can chip away at a person’s confidence, trust, belief that their feelings/discomfort is valid, etc. it’s extremely invalidating, and I’d argue even MORESO when done by trusted friends because it tells you those closest to you, who know you best, don’t even take your discomfort seriously.
In fact it could be argued Joyce’s aversion to seeking medical care could be a facet related to this experience: she’s used to her issues being dismissed and mocked as “silly quirks” so may be less inclined to seek help even for more serious issues.
Okay, weighing in. Joyce isn’t wrong to want to find someone with similar experiences, or to ask Dina for that connection. Dina isn’t wrong for pointing out the differences in a tone of rejection. (She hasn’t explicitly rejected it yet, but it feels there implicitly.) Attempt made, rebuffed, move on.
I’m guessing Indiana University is big enough to have some sort of autism support group or just affiliation who ARE looking to connect and communicate… *googles* Yup, it does!
… Joyce is going to do a dumbing and not google it, isn’t she?
bing bing bing!
(she’s gonna use Bing. 😉 )
Haven’t these kids gone through enough? Why would you make them suffer through Bing?!
“Because I’m evil.”
—
FlashLex Luthor, your leaderShe might get Dorothy to Google it for her.
Sarah’s canonically the one with the googling tasks. She prefers to hand off the stuff involving feels and drama to the other two adoptive moms.
I forget was it ever made clear how much access/experience Joyce had with google (or the wider internet in general) prior to college? Was it a thing she could always use but self-selected what sites and searches she accessed to stay within her worldview, or was her access actively limited by her parents?
I feel like I remember her googling stuff a few times before but her sheltered-ness tells me she has in some way or another been limited in what she accessed. Which I feel like is hard to do with today’s internet, but maybe still possible with very carefully curated social media echo chambers and an aversion to googling anything “unacceptable” or “controversial.”
The sliding timescale probably makes this tricky too. Though I guess they were always solidly within gen z since it spans more than 10 years, and therefore would’ve grown up with pretty ubiquitous internet access (excluding scenarios where it was restricted in their own homes by parents).
Dina can’t bother Joyce for information even when Joyce is badly indisposed and butt into conversations she wasn’t part of, and then act offended when Joyce wants to talk about the thing Dina literally already inserted herself into a conversation about.
Joyce absolutely owes her an apology, and Dina absolutely does not owe her a conversation. But Dina’s been a real asshole lately.
So Joyce owes Dina an apology for what she said, but Dina can’t be upset about it. And Dina doesn’t owe Joyce a conversation, but she can’t say she doesn’t want a conversation.
I’m not even saying you’re wrong, but it seems to me that this is a “no right answers” situation.
It”s less Dina can’t be upset about it – she absolutely can – but it’s a bit unfair to expect Joyce to be a font of information at any moment and to act shocked that Joyce wants to talk about the thing Dina literally barged into a conversation about. Joyce has been an asshole, there’s no doubt, but Dina keeps involving herself and then acting shocked that Joyce considers her involved.
As an autistic person, I can identify with Dina’s position here. Somebody has decided that they and I should be social together, and unless I go along with these plans, which were made without me, then I’ll be regarded as a rude person. They, however, won’t be seen as rude for putting me in this position.
(Granted, I know that some people have different problems with Dina’s behavior. Regardless of whether I agree with those viewpoints, I wanna be clear that what I’m relating to is the specific thing I’m mentioning.)
For me this comic illustrates the difference between autism as empowerment vs autism as trauma and how isolating both can be. Sure I sympathise with Dina’s bitterness from her trauma and Joyce gaining power by being so confident about it but you gotta respect each other’s perspectives or nothing gets better.
I definitely relate to the downplaying the trauma that Dina feels though, wrong as it is sometimes
By the way, there are lots of people discussing the previous interaction between Dina and Joyce. Could anyone link it? Or just tell me when it was published, real-world-timewise?
One starts here (and eventually ends with “you don’t count, you’re a robot girl”):
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/03-trial-and-sarah/approach-3/
The other one effectively starts here:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/thatbad/
Much obliged!
Dina’s fully in her rights to say no to Joyce, but effectively telling Joyce that her autism just manifests as “smiling too much and eating chicken fingers” is… really mean. At the very least, it’s needlessly reductive to someone that’s just learning about and coming to terms with their own potential autism.
Willis went from broke this time with the character wars:
Central Character vs People’s Favorite!!
Bring the popcorn!!
Also: don’t forget this is called Dumbing of Age. Both Dina and Joyce are somehow right, but mostly they are plainly wrong. Only that’s not the thing, the thing is both are immensely relatable, as many commenters willingly attest.
These are fictional characters. If they got along perfectly and responded to every social interaction “correctly” this would be a PSA, not a story.
Yeah, it’s weird how some people sort of seem to regard it as a problem, writing-wise, that a character is being unfair towards another character.
As much as I bristle at the lateral ableism it conjures up, writing-wise I like this direction, assuming it is dealt with carefully. As in, if it’s going in the direction of showing both these characters are flawed in their own ways, Dina is not perfect either and has her own biases to confront.
If the writing is intended for us to be siding entirely with Dina here, then I’d take issue with it, but I don’t think that’s the intention, even though some commenters seem to be agreeing with her take on Joyce’s perceived lack of struggle. It’s a tricky topic to write about, but Willis has handled a lot of tricky topics surrounding disability well so far.
Being forced to repeat one of the first grade because they think you’re unable to be on the same level as others is terrible. For years I have wondered what my life would have been like if I hadn’t repeated first grade. I’m really sad for Dina and everything she has had to go through. I like Joyce, she’s a fantastic character and she really is doing everything she can to change. But if someone who I don’t know very much about, smiles almost constantly and who I also dislike from previous contacts (plus all the complications with Becky) tried to have a conversation with me about “Our shared issue,” I would avoid them too.
Yeah, hard same.
I wrote elsewhere that I had a similar reaction as Dina when my sibling got an ADHD diagnosis before me despite my struggles being more externalized and therefore to my perception more severe.
If my sibling had come to me to talk about our shared issues, I’m certain I would have reacted like Dina.
(Meanwhile since I was gifted and able to ace tests on no sleep or study, whereas she had to struggle and claw for an 80%, I’m equally certain my sibling would have had the same reaction to me approaching her!)
I’ll note the last part isn’t at all speculation – I did actually approach my sibling in university for advice on getting evaluated and her reaction was basically Dina’s. I think it’s a pretty human reaction to hearing that someone you’re jealous of shares your struggle somehow.
I probably narrowly avoided having to repeat grades just by being really good at learning words and reading a shit-ton of books “above” my “reading level”. That and my autism/ADHD manifested in ways that weren’t, shall we say, perfectly angelic and level-headed, so I was likely seen as a behavioral case and moved up despite consistently failing subjects like math and science. A few of my “special ed” classmates got held back and I was always confused by that because they were often mediocre learners at worst, just in need of some proper help and they’d have been getting better scores than me. Perhaps it’s not surprising that a lot of us didn’t end up finishing high school, even the ones who weren’t deliberately held back a year.
My sympathies. I somehow managed to do pretty well in school and I still don’t entirely understand it. I think it was a combo of being really good in a few subjects that interested me enough, and in the ones I struggled, I’d panic at my midterm grades and beg the teacher for extra credit options to bring my grade up, and got lucky enough that they were willing to help. So by my final grades alone it would’ve appeared I did fine in school, I was constantly underperforming and making up for it with excessive amounts of extra work and stress. It was…not pleasant.
Just about what you’d expect from the American Public School System.
That said, I’m starting to contemplate that it’s a waste of time to chase the respect of and glorify the systems and people that don’t really care about us, that look after their interests at our expense, that punish us for the way we are. That we should focus on our own self respect first and foremost.
I wanna just learn stuff on my own, at my own pace, in my own way, away from all the elitist toxic crap and one-size-fits-all mentality that’s thoroughly corrupted the school system.
And I have a feeling I’m not alone in this desire.
Dunno if this comment was for me or Taffy, but this definitely was not a public school specific issue, as I went to private schools and still struggled with a lack of support for these issues.
Whereas my kid is at a public school now and it’s so amazingly better, but some of that may be changing times/mental health awareness combined with the luck of a well-funded school district in a small town (so more resources available for all the kids).
Like for example, at my pricey private school, both my brother and I got zero support with the sorts of bullying and academic issues we struggled with. My kid’s public school on the other hand took swift and immediate action (including involving thr school counselor) when my kid was being bullied. The second she did poorly on ONE math test, she was immediately given free tutoring.
I dunno if we just won the school district lottery or if it’s gradually getting better in many places, but I’m happy to see this kind of improvement, even if I’m sure it doesn’t exist everywhere nationwide sadly.
Before I skipped a grade there was talks of holding me back a grade. Even as an adult, i feel that I have to constantly prove that I know more than the neurotypical people around me about a given subject simply to not be condescended to.
Ooof these feels: having to constantly prove you know more about a subject to avoid being condescended to.
Though in my case because I was not aware of my ND until fairly recently, it was more compensating for people’s reactions to my social awkwardness, shyness, inability to articulate clearly when speaking (I can write a lot but arguing points out loud is so hard for me) and being a small and blonde girl with a degree/career drawing cartoons, always added an extra layer of “you must not be very bright” when meeting new people (especially older men in STEM fields).
Totally with you on all this, resentment and everything. So sorry this happened to you, it’s just awful. 😭😭😭
Be it for grades or for not being “emotionally ready”, they always look for an excuse to hold us back, really the whole American school system is a toxic fucking cesspool that brings out the worse in everyone.
chicken fingers … ?
Joyce has been established as having really particular food demands (food not touching in a particular way, etc) and chicken fingers are one of the things that pass muster.
Yeah I suspect Joyce has untreated ARFID.
Somewhat off topic but thank you for mentioning this! I’d never heard of this and as a parent of a kid whose list of “acceptable foods” has been increasingly shrinking, this is really helpful to know about.
I was a kid like that. At my most restrictive I had 8 foods I’d eat and I would in fact starve rather than eat others, as my parents found out when they had me stay with a family friend for a few days and I didn’t eat the whole time I was there because my parents mentioned to her that (at the time before it ramped up) I would eat most things but not KD or celery and she took that as a challenge and fed me KD with celery in it. I kept gagging every time I tried to eat it and she kept serving it at every meal. I think I successfully snuck a banana and a couple of apples while she wasn’t looking but that was all I ate that whole week.
So my parents never made me stay with her again, but after that my safe foods got a lot more restrictive and I would have a hard nope response to being pushed to try stuff.
Anyway I did eventually get over it but before that it must’ve been a slog for my parents (even if at least most of my safe foods were relatively healthy: a particular brand of canned cream of mushroom soup, milk, broccoli WITH CHEESE, beef, chicken, chocolate, flat egg noodles and rice), but to their credit they did seem to recognize I wasn’t trying to be difficult with it, and if I tried a thing and it was a hard no they didn’t force it (they just got a bit too excited when I was trying new things and my brain translated that into pressure which made the anxiety way worse. I needed them to not care, which is hard when you’re excited your kid might be able to add eggs or bread to the acceptable list and all the options those open up. It was worst when I was 8, and slowly got better through preteen and teens. As an adult I’m actually a really adventurous eater, which literally nobody who knew my kid self would have ever anticipated. My sister who was the one with a normal approach to food is the adult who is super reluctant to try new things, weirdly enough.
My parents screwed up in many ways but their approach to my food thing was I think about as good as non experts could have managed on their own (this was the 90s, ARFID was not a thing really.
(&yes I identify broccoli with cheese as it’s own thing, kid me would not eat broccoli or cheese on their own but broccoli with cheese was acceptable if the cheese was medium aged cheddar.)
This is really useful information, thank you! I’d never considered the possibility that excitement/encouragement might add too much pressure so that’s something I’ll have to investigate to see if it’s playing a role with my kid.
I was a picky eater too when I was younger, and then a series of food allergies and other health problems forcing increased restriction kind of forced me to learn how to cook and forced me to broaden my diet because so many of my staple foods (cheese, all cheese) became off limits and I needed to find a way to like veggies. And then just age and time and such further expanded my palette and willingness to try new things (once you have a kid, you start having to just…eat what you can/what’s easy and available at times because it’s either that or go hungry when time and energy is limited).
So I have some personal experience with picky eating, but it has weirdly been not super helpful in dealing with my own kid since it manifests differently in her. I had a restrictive (and not always healthy) diet but would at least eat enough to get by. She’s currently in this phase though where she mostly just wants to eat a few snack foods, and literally nothing that is substantial enough to keep her full, so she ends up just asking for snacks all day long and it becomes a problem (homework keeps getting interrupted because she’s constantly hungry, it affects her focus in school because of hunger, etc). I’ve tried to be sensitive to it, as I understand to some degree what being picky is like, but she also needs to eat enough to at least function, and I don’t know how to help her. We’ve tried so many things. Even when we make her something she says she’ll eat, she’ll take like 2 bites and say she’s full but then be hungry again 30-60 min later, and this will continue all day, especially in the evening, up to and after bedtime.
She mostly just wants string cheese, goldfish crackers, fries, fruit, and those squeeze baby food pouches. I’ve tried putting together “meals” out of snacks (cheese and some healthier crackers, with a side of fruit or a squeeze pouch), and if that worked I’d be fine doing that for now, but she’s still not getting enough to eat. And while she can graze at home, it’s obviously a problem in school, or when she needs to sleep or focus on something but is *still* hungry.
It’s so odd because a few years ago she was so adventurous. She even loved broccoli, spicy salsa, etc. And then around 5 or 6 (she’s 7 now) just gradually started getting pickier until more and more foods were eliminated and only a few were left. It seems like a lot of kids go through this stage and I’m hoping it’s temporary, but oof it’s difficult at the moment. She’s a tall, fast-growing, high energy kid so she really can’t afford to slide by on a low calorie diet (whereas I was a tiny, non-athletic kid who did not grow very fast so I got away with picking at my food/eating small meals without it being a huge issue).
We probably need to just keep experimenting. It seems like her tastes change a lot and we have found foods that were previously eliminated can sometimes be reintroduced (she insisted she hated wheat bread for 2 years and now suddenly she likes it again as of yesterday).
Anyway sorry for the off-topic vent. I appreciate you sharing your story and input, it was really helpful! I feel like a lot of picky eating advice is either the bad “force your kid to eat, they won’t let themselves go hungry just to avoid foods they hate” advice which…feels cruel and clearly does not work because they WILL let themselves go hungry, or it’s advice directed at parents of autistic kids and I have not seen any signs of autism in her so far. Just a series of new eating restrictions. So she probably requires a different approach, and I still haven’t quite figured out why she is being so picky/what the issue is from her perspective (it’s tough to get kids to clearly articulate stuff like that at this age…often they don’t really know themselves).
People siding with Joyce here are Elon Musk fanbois.
Wtf even is this take?
First off, no? Not even remotely? Second, this makes zero sense so I have no idea what you’re even getting at. Musk is not exactly known for having a nuanced understanding of things like ableism or…any issue of discrimination really, so I’m not sure what he even has to do with this conversation?
Trying to insult people pointing out the issues with lateral ableism and dismissing the struggles of others based on surface observations of their life by claiming they like a man who…is frequently awful to multiple marginalized groups is wildly offensive and bizarre and just…a bad bad take.
Musk said “I have autism now” and expected it to be accepted as an excuse for his assholery. Exact same energy as Joyce.
Wow. What an awful take.
That’s quite a leap
“If you disagree with me on a fictional character you’re a facist” is not an effective way to win online discussions
Congratulations on making the most baffling internet comment I will read today.
If you would like to explain how “Joyce’s trauma is more layered than Dina is expressing here” = “Yay Elon!” I would be fascinated to hear it.
…Not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya?
6/10 troll, low effort.
But shouldn’t really try again.
Man, shut up.
🤮🤮🤮
Still think Joyce should be getting screened for OCD, not Autism.
I think they’re comorbid in her case.
Tbh I am still not entirely clear on the difference between autism and some other conditions. I have ADHD, but a lot of my symptoms ascribed to that are also symptoms of autism. Things attributed to autism more specifically that I don’t struggle with are apparently (or so I’ve been told) not requirements for an autism diagnosis. Almost every (possibly literally every) trait Joyce has exhibited that got her identified as autistic is a trait I have.
I know this is probably more a question for my therapist or psych than internet strangers but I’m curious to hear other people’s takes on it. What exactly is the key difference between all these conditions? I know many of them overlap and occur together, but I’ve been trying to figure out if I’m a person with ADHD whose condition shares symptoms with autism, or a person who may be autistic but subtly enough that I haven’t been diagnosed yet, a la Joyce until recently.
Doesn’t help that BOTH ADHD and autism have been linked with EDS, which I do have.
To be clear I definitely have ADHD. Wondering if it’s: having these symptoms WITH the addition of focus issues and some other non-autism stuff is the differentiating factor? Or if just so many people have both that symptoms of autism are mistakenly being attributed to ADHD?
And yeah ocd seems to be one of those things with symptoms that can manifest as a side effect of some other condition too.
Yeah, I was diagnosed with AS, mild OCD, and ADHD-PI about 25 years ago. (At least that’s the current terminology.) Nonverbal social cues were a deliberately learned process, I don’t notice the OCD so much, and I struggle with follow-through on projects. I’m also not constantly stimming, I don’t care if my foods get mixed together, and I’ve never been the “ball of energy bouncing off the walls” type.
There’s definitely overlap, but I’m not 100% on what goes where. That’s just my frame of reference.
What can I say, neurodivergence like many other natural things really defies neatness, lots of ND stripes can’t be sorted that easily into preconceived boxes like ADHD and autism, LOTS of overlap for sure.
Labels as a tool will only get you so far, untangling your unique combinations of neurodivergent stripes is a really individualized process that’s gonna look different for everyone. Believe me, I know!
This seems like a very accurate take for sure!
The difference is what the purpose of the symptom is. Like if I’m not mistaken, in autism, stimming is a way of managing emotions or self soothing whereas in ADHD it’s a way to sort of occupy the mind for better focus. So while symptoms overlap a LOT between autism and ADHD, the source of those symptoms aren’t the same.
Essentially think of it like how a cough isn’t indicative of a single condition. Could be allergies, an infection, a virus, smoke, etc, but they’ll all be accompanied by coughing.
HM. I’m not sure that clarifies it for me because I do BOTH. I do a lot of stimming (my preferred method is twirling/rubbing some polyfill stuffing into tiny threads and balls with my fingers, as a kid in school I often doodled or played with a piece of clay). And for me it provides both focus and soothing anxiety.
Like it was crucial to helping me pay attention in school and still is at keeping me on track when I’m reading or doing other activities that require a lot of focus, but it’s also crucial if I’m doing a phone or video call (I find those very stressful) or otherwise anxious about something.
Unsure if that means I might actually fall into both categories, or if it can serve as emotional soothing for people with ADHD/anxiety too.
I think the differences between ADHD and autism are hard to parse in some cases but do still exist, it’s just hard to really articulate how the symptoms aren’t ‘the same’ even if outwardly they may look the same. Because a lot of cases look very different from each other and then some look the same or very similar.
There are some things that are ADHD only like how stimulants cause a calming effect for a majority (there is a minority where this is not the case I think because of course an exception for the exception exists, why would it not).
And being nonverbal is more an autism thing, like, at least 25% of kids with autism are nonverbal where they speak very little or not at all and sensory issues are way more common in autism, though not impossible in ADHD, in both extremes of being under or oversensitive to stuff. I also think that difficulty with generating varied facial expressions is more an autism thing?
I also think part of it is that some symptoms are MORE COMMON in one than the other or may exist for different reasons.
Neurodivergence is a little bit like Final Fantasy, I think. They’re all definitely under the same umbrella and there’s a lot of overlapping qualities shared around, but not all of them are directly connected and some of them branch away wildly from each other after the surface-level similarities. There’s also a lot of very pretty men and usually some kind of dragon.
🤩 Adding this to my quotebook, this is pure GOLD!!!
*tightens necktie*
I gotta stop reading the comments I swear. Some good takes today but also I’m looking forward to hopefully this storyline being an education on the harms of lateral ableism and why “passing privilege” is not really a thing when it comes to disability because wow, a lot of people need to learn that. As someone with invisible disability, who was also diagnosed very late and seemed “fine” my whole life to most people because I was good at hiding my struggles, this has been just an awesome reminder of how quick people are to invalidate those experiences if someone doesn’t LOOK like they’ve struggled sufficiently.
“This” being some of these comments, to be clear, not the comic itself. I mean yeah the comic is a reminder too, but a realistic one, and is at least fiction. Seeing those sentiments echoed by real people in the comments on the other hand…ouch.
Sorry about that. Take your time if you need.
Thank you. <3 I’m usually an “avoid the comments” person (for any and all things, not just this comic) but I occasionally drift into them when it’s a topic personally relevant to my own experiences, I guess out of some misguided hope of seeing people saying the things I always hoped they would about said topic.
I gotta learn to stop expecting that.
And in an effort to be constructive, look, here are the sort of unspoken rules the disability communities I’ve participated in have, which may help people see where I’m coming from:
1. Don’t make assumptions about other people’s experiences (be it their history, the severity of their issues, or the validity of their condition) because none of us really knows exactly what other people go through, and most of us have had our experiences invalidated by others before, so we recognize that it’s not helpful to add to that or create divisions between members of the community. We already experience enough of this kind of ableism from outside the disability community.
2. Don’t play disability Olympics. Same reasons as the above. Competing over who has it worse doesn’t help anyone. It creates division and ostracizes people who may already be struggling to have their issues taken seriously because they don’t appear “disabled enough.” And contributes to them doubting the reality of their situation, which again, is something people with disability, especially with visible disability, get enough of already from the medical community and the rest of society. If someone feels their condition has negatively impacted their life, or caused them struggle in some way, they are valid, and should be accepted as such.
3. Seeking support and offering support are a key component of the disability community. We can’t always depend on those outside it, so we have to depend on each other. I’m very grateful that most of the people I’ve met in the community have been extremely supportive. We share tips, research, encourage each other to ask questions, or just offer support when someone is struggling.
4. But the caveat for the above is setting boundaries is also okay. No one is obligated to answer a question at any given time, be it due to personal privacy preference, lack of energy (or “spoons”, if you know that term), or any other reason. If someone says “I can’t right now,” we should respect that and not push.
These 4 “rules” (unspoken but communally enforced) have made the disability circles I’ve been a part of extremely welcoming, supportive, helpful places to interact with. I’ve seen some disability circles that don’t adhere to the above and it gets real messy real fast. It quickly devolves into a competition to prove who is the most valid, or the community becomes a tiny clique that is hostile to newcomers and people not already “in” feel obligated to participate in the ostracization of others, while frequently still feeling alone and like they can’t speak honestly about their issues. It becomes more about posturing and putting others down for a quick ego boost than an actual support group. It’s incredibly toxic.
I understand many commenters here are not part of the wider disability community, and even those who are may not have participated in more inclusive and supportive online circles before, but there is a whole lot of stomping all over many or all of the above, or people rigidly adhering to the boundary rule (4) while ignoring the rest. In my experience, true disability support and allyship only works effectively if you follow all the above and focus on empathy above all else.
I hope some folks who maybe haven’t spent much time thinking about these issues take the time to do so.
In number 2 that should say “especially people with invisible disability” not “visible disability.” I can’t type on mobile.
Thank you so much for sharing, I’ve been in communities that didn’t adhere to all 4 rules and I can say that what you said is pretty much accurate. A lot of fandom spaces are like that too, for whatever reason. A lot of poc spaces are actively hostile towards people mixed with white. Trans spaces are often hostile towards people who pass, people who don’t pass, people who don’t want surgery, people of color, and intersex people.
Thanks guys! I’m glad people found it helpful! And yeah Joy I have noticed that in a lot of other spaces too.
I want to say thank you for writing such thoughtful comments today. There’s a lot of black-and-white-no-nuances-of-gray-allowed thinking in these comments, and you’ve articulated a lot of what I would have wanted to say but couldn’t have said nearly as well, as well as a lot of things that I couldn’t have even thought of.
(and by “these comments” I mean “this comment section”, not your comments.)
Seconded!
“talk to you” and “talk with you”, just one word apart and probably a world of difference
Ohshit, I totally missed that.
This is a fantastic example of the sort of linguistic nitpicking in an effort to assign the worst intent to others’ motives that I find utterly exhausting.
Maybe it was intentionally worded that way to imply something. Maybe it’s just how people talk and not every word out of someone’s mouth is a secret second message about how they really feel deep down.
Like, Joyce obviously has a history of boundary issues, but the way so many people are reacting to this as one of them tells me a lot of people here either have no experience with disability community support, or at least not with any GOOD ones.
Dina saying no is fine, completely fine, and Joyce should respect that. But asking someone who shares your condition if you can talk to them about it in the first places is also not unreasonable, and is in fact a very normal and common thing for people to do when they have just been told they may have a condition they know very little about and then learn someone they know may also have it.
I’m honestly unaware of any significant difference in meaning between “talk to” and “talk with” in this context. He’ll, to be honest, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone differentiate between the two. I get where you’re coming from, equating “talk to” with “talk at”, the implications being that Joyce is looking for Dina to be someone who would listen to what she says and then go “of course you’re right ” rather than actually engage. I just…don’t think it’s supported by thr context of the sentence or by my experience of the “to/with” divide.
When I was a kid, my parents had a friend called Steve who lived next door. Sometimes they’d happen to be outside at the same time and signal each other over for a short conversation, but they’d word it as “Hey, lemme talk atcha a minute!”. Not sure what the moral of this anecdote is, but you woke up the memory.
Memory be like that, yo.
Half of the abuses Dina listed were things Joyce herself has done to her and some of y’all in these comments are mad that she’s unwilling to help💀
Idk between Dina and Sarah during this whole Joyce’s Autism Arc, the minute a Woman of Color in this comic stops existing for the purpose of bolstering up Joyce or another white woman character, even in the face of harm she personally has done to them, it seems to make some people VERY upset and those people could stand to be a bit more conscious and reflective to how quickly they take up arms when it happens
This is the same Dina that demanded information about Joyce’s childhood trauma while Joyce was sick and in pain, and invaded her personal space to an incredible degree while doing so. The same Dina that barged into Joyce’s conversation regarding her medical information to dump her own childhood trauma on Joyce, who had nothing to do with it and didn’t ask. Dina can’t demand information and emotional labor out of Joyce while acting pissy Joyce asks for the same thing. She doesn’t owe Joyce a conversation, but she does need to back way the hell off.
“Dina committed relatively minor transgressions in the past so she is obligated to show grace to someone who has repeatedly slung abuse at her” is a very bizarre take and I would encourage a bit more self-awareness for how much aggressiveness with which you speak about Dina’s actions because it doesn’t come off as a good look
Pointing out they both have a history of boundary issues is not saying Dina is “aggressive,” and it’s weird to claim only one of them has ever done stuff like this and only one of them is allowed to have boundaries.
They have both at various times throughout these interactions, been very un-tactful and possibly violated the others’ boundaries. Dina is well within her rights to set a boundary here, but you seem to be really trying to make people out to be saying something they are not actually saying, rather than listening to their actual words.
That is an extremely funny accusation to make at me because nowhere did I claim that Dina was being aggressive nor did I ever say that the transgressions were one-sided OR that Dina is the only one allowed to set boundaries
I’m not saying you said Dina was being aggressive. You implied CC was calling Dina aggressive or attributing aggression to her behavior. And you framed Dina’s behavior as “relatively mild transgressions” while Joyce’s as “repeatedly slung abuse.” When much of the behavior you’re referring to is, to me, relatively the same sort of thing.
They have both violated boundaries and been disrespectful of each other with varying degrees of severity. Someone pointing that out is not being aggressive about any one character.
Like, one doesn’t have to be the villain here. It’s okay for them to both have flaws and it should be okay to talk about those flaws without the assumption anyone who mentions them thinks the character is 100% bad or the other character is 100% good and taking it as far as making insinuations about things a person did not even say when many of us are speaking from DIRECT experience with disability or mental health issues, is very frustrating.
There is a useful, multifaceted, nuanced conversation to be had here about the harms of lateral ableism and sensitivity towards respecting people’s differing approaches with disability, and so much of that is just getting trampled by the desire people have to reduce a character or RL commenter’s actions to the worst possible assumed intent.
Relatively minor? She literally walked into Joyce’s room without permission and crawled onto her bed uninvited. When’s the last time you did that to an unfriendly acquaintance? Joyce and Dina are nowhere near close enough for that. And I think you may not have read my comment. Dina doesn’t need to show grace, she needs to stop engaging. The option to not antagonize Joyce while maintaining boundaries is readily available.
I’m a little upset that you’ve characterized my comments as aggressiveness. Pointing out that a character has also acted badly is not aggressiveness.
Yeah, “aggressive” was definitely unwarranted, but, hey, people seem to be going ham on that count in the comments today. Lan’s comments are all very bluntly phrased so I’m assuming it’s a “them-problem”
Repeatedly sling abuse is kind of a strong word for it. Joyce has said some insulting stuff that would also be triggering… So, like, verbal microaggressions. It’s also something she’s been working on.
I haven’t read through all the comments but I’ve skimmed most of them and I haven’t seen these people mad that dina is unwilling to help. I apologize if they are there and I missed them, but literally every critique of dina I have seen has been about the WAY she responded, implying Joyce’s experiences are less valid. Dina is completely within her rights to set a boundary.
What I find disturbing is the number of people in the comments echoing Dina’s sentiment that Joyce has no right to even ask a peer about their experiences, often coupled with the implication that it’s because Joyce isn’t “autistic enough” to have had any real negative experiences as a result of her own autism the way Dina has.
And frankly people could stand to be a bit more reflective on how quick they are to dismiss the validity of someone’s trauma when they don’t “look” like they’ve struggled enough.
I’m glad someone’s said it.
…Now that I think about it, part of what Dina’s attributing to her experiences with autism have to be racism. Like, Joyce experiences discrimination for her neurotype. Source: read the comic. Dina experiences that discrimination, and racism, and the intersection between that ableism and racism: being compared to a child or a robot evokes anti-asian discrimination.
Joyce, I know talking to a peer is more tempting and a lot less momentum is involved, but what you want to do is talk to a therapist.
Finding a therapist experienced with disability is frankly a lot harder than finding a peer. And provides a totally different kind of support. Someone dealing with issues like this may also find a therapist beneficial, but community support is also very helpful in feeling less isolated and better learning how to deal with these things.
Whether Dina is the right person to seek out is another matter, but it’s very normal and totally valid to want peer support in this sort of scenario. I’d argue if the one person you know in person doesn’t want to talk about it, seeing support online is the next best step.
That said I think literally everyone in this comic needs therapy, but then again I’m of the opinion that most people IRL would benefit from therapy too. Therapy rocks (and should be more accessible and less stigmatized).
I definitely get that there’s a lot of work and risk involved with getting a therapist to talk to that is ND informed (or is even a member of the spectrum), and I certainly suggested it wouldn’t be the easy option. I just think it’s what would be best for Joyce. It’s what I want for her. I was diagnosed within the last year or two (time is hard to track). And I definitely did talk to my roommate who knows me well and is studying psychology about her thoughts, but it was the therapist that has really helped me. On so much more than diagnosis. Once diagnosed I started talking to my other autistic friends and I found 2 fb groups for autism that I like. I know not everyone has the same path, which is kind of the point of the strip today, but I stand by my comment above
Yeah I guess I was thinking more about my experiences with therapy in regards to physical disability (my therapist has 2 patients, including me, with the condition I have but is mostly learning about them from us) but I guess it does make sense they’d be more likely to help with conditions that tend to be more mental and social in nature. My therapist has been far more helpful and knowledgeable about ADHD.
I’m still fairly new to the ND side of disability (was only diagnosed with ADHD a few months ago) so a lot of my frame of reference still comes from the chronic illness/chronic pain/physical disability side of things which is obviously not quite the same.
That does make sense, my therapist doesn’t really touch the stuff that has to do with my fibromyalga or my ibs. She’s accommodating, but doesn’t really include it in our talks. Intersectionality in a therapist can make it harder than it already is. Like if you could take an alternative version of yourself that decided to become a therapist instead and talk to them, that’d be quite helpful, but unfortunately impossible. Not not worth trying for second best, but only if everything lines up. Finding a therapist is not set up to be easy for ND folks, no matter how rewarding it can be.
today’s Dina really seems like an entirely different character from the one from a decade ago, who was called a child and a [r-word] at the mall and didn’t react to being insulted. I would find it hard to believe that past Dina even knew the word infantilization.
And this is supposed to be less than six months after that incident. I know in real life it has been literal years but the story is supposed to be set over fall semester and the beginning of winter semester. The speed in which these characters are developing really streches the suspension of disbelief. One starts to get the feeling that characters behave like this because the author decided it was better or more interesting rather than natural development.
I was thinking about how, six months ago (in canon), Dina was learning from Amber how to express sympathy via light physical contact. Definitely feels like the autism was very much grandfathered in as the comic progressed
It might be a retcon as Willis’ own experiences have changed the perspective that might be written into the comic.
But even if it is I thibk it’s an easy one to paper over: one could argue that even if Dina doesn’t do much social performing, she may still unconsciously do *some* and her previously more “chill” behavior may have come from a place of unconscious insecurity. For possibly the first time in her life she has at least one peer who admires her for who she is, instead of infantilizes her, in Becky, and it has probably given her newfound confidence in a way that allows her to be more bold, speak her mind, set firm boundaries, stand up for herself, etc.
And while there has to be some suspension of disbelief because the speed at which the comic progresses vs. the speed at which real life progresses is gonna create some discrepancies in narrative tone, I’d argue it is possible for someone to change a lot in only 6 months. I’ve been there.
Especially in the context of being away from home and having very new experiences outside your familiar comfort zone. That tends to prompt a lot of change (either positive or negative) in most people. I like that Dina is getting some character growth. It’s very relatable for all of us who have been that quiet socially awkward pushover who just didn’t know we were ever allowed to voice our discomfort about how others treated or talked to us.
Tbh that makes Dina’s response here even more realistic imo. When people are processing the reality of disability/societal ableism, they often go through a period of engaging in some lateral ableism, as a sort of defensive reaction to having been subjected to such a lack of support themselves, especially prior to finding good support.
Not saying it’s a good thing to engage in that, to be clear, IRL when I see people doing that it’s always something I hope they will eventually unlearn (and many do once they start experiencing real genuine kind support) just that it’s not uncommon, many of us have been there, and it does seem like the natural progression for her character atm given the context.
Dina did understand. She may not have reacted to being directly insulted, but that’s because Raidah cut her friends off before they could get very far, and started condescending to Dina, which she understood fine. In the next strip, where the R slur gets dropped, Sarah pulls Dina away before Dina can react any more.
In her next appearance in that arc, she discusses not understanding people, but this seems to be her making conversation off of Sarah’s “I hate people”, rather than a direct reaction to what just happened.
In a strip three years later (a little under three weeks in-comic time), Dina reiterates that not only did she understand, she’s been holding a bit of a grudge over it.
So yeah, wild mischaracterization of what happened here.
I get called a r***** all the time and don’t always have a visible reaction. Doesn’t make the pain less real just because the damage isn’t outwardly shown.
Totally explicable difference, IMO. “Ah, yes, random jerks. Oh, are we leaving? Good, that’s easier than Being Angry at them.” vs “My partner’s bestie is being overly familiar with me regarding a topic about which I am sensitive. I’ve got to establish boundaries or she will not leave me alone.”
It’s cool for Dina to say no. You’re never owed a conversation with anyone. But I don’t think it’s cool for her to do so while simultaneously dismissing Joyce’s history and situation because they mean Joyce has suffered less.
But this is prolly the most interested I’ve ever been in Dina. She needed more flaws.
I think Dina is failing to make the connection that masking better doesn’t necessarily equal suffering less. She’s forgetting to account for the fact Joyce grew up in the same cult Becky did, and they both felt the same pressures to perform “normality”. The same cult that hit them as kids (a fact that Dina found alarming) and damn near got Becky and Joyce killed essentially for failing to perform that “normality”. Dina doesn’t have to do anything for Joyce but she’s being pretty dismissive of Joyce here, especially considering Dina knows a good deal of Joyce’s background via Becky.
To get too into the weeds, I think part of that could be because Dina saw, prior to *gestures broadly at state of comic*, that Joyce appeared to be very comfortable in her role within her fundie community. I wonder if Dina might say “well, it’s good that Joyce is rejecting these harmful beliefs, but they didn’t harm her.”
Which, as we know, isn’t true, which goes back to what folks say about masking (which, incidentally, is an aspect of neurodivergence I’m still learning a lot about, so these comments have been helpful in that regard)
But that’s the thing, Dina has front row seats to the fact it did harm her. She knows about the incidents with toedad, and about Joyce’s mom (through Becky at the very least). She knows what the cult is capable of, through firsthand accounts from Becky. She just hasn’t made the link that the same pressures to conform applied to Becky would have also been applied to Joyce. Or she’s dismissing it because it’s inconvient, but I think that’s a way too malicious reading of Dina’s characterization.
I think my point is more that Dina thinks that Joyce didn’t need that pressure to conform- that she was a perfectly content little godling until the events of the comic and thus didn’t suffer for her neurodivergence. Which I think is basically what you said but in a different way.
Yeah I think we’re arguing the same point lol
Yeah it’s really an excellent commentary on the dangers of assumptions. Honestly I think even JOYCE hasn’t fully unpacked all the ways her upbringing harmed her yet. That’s the sort of thing that often takes years.
In the same way a woman who laughs at “minor” assault or sexist jokes because she doesn’t want to “be difficult” but later learns that she was right to be upset or uncomfortable wasn’t “unharmed” by those past experiences just because she seemed fine with them, Joyce’s sunny disposition I think hid a lot of unrecognized trauma that is still unfolding (a fact I swear more of the comments seemed very sympathetic to when Joyce was being a cranky atheist but seem to have forgotten recently…)
In the same sense that people might not have figured Dina was at all bothered by the way she is often treated because she seemed so passive about it, when we see here it clearly bothered her deep down. It’s a good reminder not to judge people’s struggles from a surface glance.
Also to be clear because I’m worried this might be misinterpreted, I very intentionally put “minor” in quotes above to illustrate that it may have been something the woman perceived as minor, definitely not saying assault is ever minor. But we’re often conditioned to view experiences that are a type of assault as not that (a classmate groping you for “laughs”, for example…that’s something that can take a long time to process as actually violating, especially for those of us whose teen years were long long before the metoo era).
Well said.
Said this in my comment above but yeah it sucks, but it is SUPER realistic given the context of her situation.
Often happens when people are first diagnosed with something in an effort to hang on to some abled privilege (putting down other disabled people often allows a disabled person to still connect with the ableists around them) but as Dina has obviously known/suspected her autism for a while, that’s not the reason here. But she might be finally developing more awareness of just how much ableism (as well as racial discrimination in healthcare and society) has affected her experience as an autistic person and I know that can also foster a degree of resentment towards those perceived as having it “easier.”
Dina is in that uncomfortable position of knowing she is not like everyone else, but not having the validation of a diagnosis, and presumably lacking any kind of supportive autism community, and that’s a sucky place to be. Her anger, though misdirected, is valid, and very reflective of things I have seen and experienced IRL.
Honestly if they were real people what I’d suggest is that they both seek out broader community, like online or something. A good supportive disability community can be super empowering and validating and likely would provide both of them more help than they could for each other atm as two sort of isolated people with somewhat different experiences with the same condition.
She can’t be diagnosed with ARFID. ARFID is a diagnosis of exclusion. One of the requirements is that there are not any other developmental, neurological, or psychological diagnosis that could explain the food related behaviors. The other is that the person must be under 6 years old.
This means that she needs to be tested for OCD, Anxiety, ASD, ADHD, etc. before they would consider ARFID even if she was 6 years old.
I asked about ARFID for my daughter (who is now 7, but was 5 at the time) and she didn’t qualify because they were certain that she would test for ADHD when she was 6 (the cutoff for diagnosis of that disorder). Her eating is even more disordered than Joyce’s. Chicken fingers are not always accepted, infact they must be one specific brand and/or one specific breading type (just as an example) which means I need to see them before they can be ordered at a restaurant. Rejection happens even when they fit the normal criteria about half the time.
She did eventually get a diagnosis for both ADHD and Anxiety (GAD), which would have invalidated an ARFID diagnosis as soon as they were received anyway.
We need to start a support group for “DOA reading parents who are currently in the midst of dealing with a child’s severe food restrictions.” There seem to be several of us here lol.
For those are wonder: yes, Dina have used this meme.
😮 Oh! I am not very conversant with memes, so I didn’t even get the reference the first time around.
It all makes sense now, Willis using this meme as a comical framing device to summarize both the pre-existing difficulties between both Joyce and Dina and the fact that they’re NOT gonna automatically relate better on account of their autism.
BRILLIANT!!!
Dina can see that this is not the start of a different relationship but a transaction. Joyce wants something from Dina. It would have been better to establish an actual relationship from which information and shared experiences could flow. This continues to treat Dina as an object rather than a person. Be better Joyce.
Dina did the exact same thing to Joyce when she walked into Joyce’s room to ask about her being hit as a kid, while Joyce was sick and not interested in company let alone willing to have the conversation.
I’m thinking Joyce should start an Autism spectrum support/discussion/study group. With free pizza sponsored by Galasso. Unless the school already has one. . .
That would be an awesome outcome and a great way for her to get the answers and peer support she’s looking for!
But maybe send Becky to ask for it. So far she’s the only one who Galasso seems intimidated enough by to be willing to offer free pizza. XD
The only downside I can see for Joyce there is that Walky would show up at every single session, just to score some free pizza, and her brain would eventually explode.
Dina is perfectly justified in saying no but I feel like she hasn’t connected that most of the hark Becky’s upbringing has caused Becky can also be applied to Joyce
I also find the infantilized comment funny considering how half the cast treats Joyce
Ultimately a simple “no” would have sufficed rather then being unnecessarily dismissive toward Joyce’s experiences
Harm* not hark
Yeah it definitely seems to be a bit of an ironic blind spot for her. An understandable one I think, considering her and Joyce’s sticky interactions in the past, they’ve both been pretty dismissive/tactless to each other in various ways.
I’ve said it a few times above but I’m cautiously hopeful to see the topic of lateral ableism respectfully explored in this storyline. It’s a very real problem. And one, judging by a lot of these comments, a lot of people could use more understanding above. Dina engaging in it doesn’t make her a bad person, but it is a sucky way to treat someone, especially someone who shares your diagnosis.
But it’s a very realistic response from her and the ease with which we can slip into it contributes to the issues of societal ableism overall. People who are not part of the disability community will often point to examples of lateral ableism (I.e. disabled people being ableist to other disabled people, such as dismissing or invalidating their experiences) to justify their own ableism (like “see, this disabled person thinks this way too, so it’s fine that I do!”)
It’s a difficult topic to discuss, emotions get heated, people who have no experience with disability don’t always have the context to properly understand its harms, and it deals with a lot of really intrinsic biases we have in society about a lot of different aspects of human behavior and experience. It’s a big topic, and I won’t deny some of the discussion here has been tough for me as someone who has personal experience with this issue, but Willis’ willingness to tackle tricky topics like this is one of the reasons I enjoy this comic so much.
Agreed. While I fully understand and sympathize with Dina’s resentment(?), that doesn’t mean that Joyce’s new worries and concerns suddenly become irrelevant. I’m reminded of how some people with minor disabilities or health issues always try to shrug off their problems or stress because “other people have it worse”. Yes, that’s true, but it’s not a contest here. Just because you have a broken finger and another guy has a broken femur doesn’t mean that your finger doesn’t need medical attention.
Yup, as a person living with pretty significant daily chronic pain, I’ve had well-meaning friends do that. Apologize for complaining about comparatively “minor” or temporary medical issues to me because I have it “so much worse,” and I honestly hate that efforts towards disability allyship have gotten twisted to make people feel this way.
I always tell these friends that my experiences do not mean that they can never feel upset or frustrated or complain about their own discomfort, no matter how mild or temporary.
So much of ableism is rooted in the idea that people should never complain about physical discomfort, that disabled people should be stoic and inspirational at all times, and that not being this way, expressing any real vulnerability or unhappiness, is somehow weakness or whining. It’s also heavily rooted in the idea that you have to meet a minimum level of obviously visibly disabled before you deserve support/help/sympathy/validation.
So to me, and to most of the disabled (particularly invisibly disabled) people I know, that kind of gatekeeping or judging who has it worse and limiting validity of complains based on that hierarchy, is self-defeating and contributes to the very ableism we are trying to fight.
Obviously it’s still important for people to try to understand what struggles others might experience that they might not. It’s a complex, nuanced issue, but in general I’m not a fan of dismissing someone’s complaint of discomfort or struggle with a disability on the sole basis their struggle *seems* easier, and find that kind of dismissal does not make them take other people’s more serious issues more seriously…it just perpetuates the idea that complaints people have about physical or mental struggles are things we can dismiss based on our own perceptions of someone else’s experiences.
Yeah, Dina is in her right to say no, but she is being very unfair to Joyce.
Okay, I’m just going to say it: Joyce clearly has undiagnosed food allergies.
Can you elaborate? Not saying I disagree (honestly never thought about it before), just curious what makes you think that?
I’m not sure I can articulate it that well, but she acts like someone who has undiagnosed food allergies. She’s probably allergic to oatmeal.
Hm, can’t say I entirely know what you’re getting at. I do know discomfort after eating can cause food aversions (have a number of food allergies and intolerances myself that took a while to diagnose and prior to that my pickiness was seen as a “weird difficult quirk”) but people can also have food aversions without being allergic to said foods. It’s a pretty common symptom of autism from what I understand.
The way Joyce describes her food aversions seems more psychological than physical to me: rules about foods not touching, describing negative aesthetic reactions to various combinations, shapes, or textures, rather than “I don’t feel well when I eat this.”
Unless I am not remembering a very specific reaction to oatmeal. Did we see Joyce eat oatmeal and react physically? Or was it a texture thing (a lot of people are oatmeal adverse because it’s often made in a way that makes it resemble snot…I don’t like it when I don’t make it myself for the same reason).
“I’m not afraid of oatmeal. I just think that if I touch it, I’ll die.”
It looks/sounds like Prof Brock might be on the spectrum, too.
It’s always possible, but I think he might just be an asshole.
That’s not what emotional labor is. Emotional labor refers to the non-enumerated, unpaid and uncompensated labor that mostly women are expected to perform in the workplace that is not expected, mostly, of men.
The use of “emotional labor” to describe any kind of demanding or unpleasant social interaction is a misuse of the term. This misuse is frequently deployed by disingenuous jerks in order to justify their antisocial behavior. Considering someone else’s feelings is not “emotional labor”, it’s prosocial behavior and we shouldn’t be abusing jargon as an excuse to not do it.
If you don’t wanna consider someone’s feelings for whatever reason (they’re a huge jerk, or abusive to you) say it with your whole chest and stand by it. Hiding behind jargon is cloying and insincere.
Anyway this is a pretty deft case of lateral ableism and crab-bucket infighting and anyone picking a “side” here is not engaging their media literacy muscles.
“say it with your whole chest and stand by it”
That’s good, I’m havin’ that.
I pretty much disagree with most of what you’re saying.
Are you going to elaborate?
I mean, it sounds like it would take effort to, and there’s other things that I could be doing.
People who don’t acknowledge that friendships require emotional labor often take the emotional labor provided to them for granted, though. It leads to lopsided friendships, and shallow, transient connections. I don’t think you’re really right here!
“Emotional labor” is a fairly specific term with fairly specific connotations that tends to get misused a lot. Its origins stem from a workplace issue I believe, but in more recent discourse it tends to be sourced back to this article: https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/
Basically it implies a very inequal sort of dynamic: demanding someone do the work for you, be it to educate you about something or take care of tasks for you, all while setting your own needs/comfort aside in a way that is generally unfair or harmful, and generally involves someone with privilege making these demands of someone without that same privilege.
That’s why people are taking issue with the use of the phrase in this interaction. It doesn’t really apply here, and it kind of implies/evokes the idea that Joyce is demanding that someone marginalized do the extra work of educating her on the experience of that marginalization from the position of someone *outside* that group, which is…very invalidating of the fact that she too is autistic.
No one is saying friendships or social interaction in general don’t require emotional effort. Obviously they do, and Dina has every right to not want to engage in that effort right now. But calling it “emotional labor” is very loaded and just not applicable to the fairly normal and not inherently toxic social interaction of someone with a condition seeking support from someone else with the same condition.
Oof sorry phrased that second paragraph badly. It should read:
demanding someone do the work for you, be it to educate you about something or take care of tasks for you, all while setting *THEIR* own needs/comfort aside in a way that is generally unfair or harmful, and generally involves someone with privilege making these demands of someone without that same privilege.
I had a call center gig that would be a good example. One element of my job was to mirror the emotions of the customer a de-escalation task meaning when I answer I need to reflect the same urgency/sadness/anger as the customer but then move them towards positive emotions as either a sales or retention task (I handled cancellation/sales/billing).
It led to severe mental dysfunction after a while as I had no emotional bandwidth for myself at the end of the day and often felt drained. They removed aftercall (a setting that makes it so I’m not immediatly in another call) during the pandemic. Soon I was going home continuing conversations that were incomplete in my mind to the walls of my appartment.
But yeah emotional labor is real and it’s new enough in concept that we’re still learning what it can actually do (like how we learned repetitive motion injury from factories).
I think Joyce literally forgot about having called Dina a robot and has no idea why Dina is so aggro, even as Dina not-very-subtly brings it up
I mean she was tired and in pain when she said it, not justifying it but it’s easily believable she wasn’t 100% aware of what she said
I guess this is what happens when two characters who have vocal “they can do no wrong” fan bases interact. Wowsers.
Willis really said “hmm, two of my most beloved characters will not get along with one another” and generated a comments hurricane for years to come
It really fits with his “Damn you Willis” twitter handle!
Wait, are there actual for real people who think Joyce did nothing wrong? Incredible.
I keep seeing this shared and still haven’t seen these people who think Joyce can do no wrong. Except maybe one or two comments at most?
I’m seeing a lot of people who acknowledge Joyce has been problematic and that it’s fair for Dina to set boundaries, but that it also isn’t inherently wrong for Joyce to try to ask about this (and that it is wrong for Dina to make assumptions about Joyce’s experiences in such a dismissive way). And I am also seeing a lot of comments from people entirely defending Dina *responding* to the above takes as if they had suggested Joyce can do no wrong. :/
Yeah, the closest I’ve actually seen to this fabled “X can do no wrong” is Fart Captor being the fandom’s biggest Becky fan, and that’s always come across as lighthearted to me.
I like that Dina isn’t perfect here and is dismissive of Joyce’s experiences because of her own pain. It feels very realistic.
Dina sees the coddled fundie girl who’s a fussy eater and smiles a lot. She doesn’t see the person who, a couple of hours ago, was angry about everyone treating her like a child, denying her agency, and redecorating her butthole.
They are not the same. But they are more alike than Dina knows.
I do think it’s at least partially a matter of perception. If Dina ain’t there for it and Joyce don’t tell her about it, how can she know? And if she don’t know, how can we hold her accountable for that? How can anyone?
We can’t hold people accountable for not knowing things they could not know for sure, but we can hold people accountable for making assumptions based on biases about what struggle looks like (I.e. the idea that anyone who isn’t very visibly struggling must not experience any significant struggle).
It’s not expecting people to be psychic, but rather encouraging caution when it comes to making assumptions about other people’s experiences.
I agree completely 😊
Yeah, that’s the fun/slightly maddening part. Like, Dina’s assessment of Joyce is factually wrong. (Note that being factually wrong is different as being morally wrong — Dina’s flawed in her mistaken assessment, but she’s not a bad person for it.) But we only know it’s factually inaccurate through the quasi-omnipotent lens of the reader. Dina only interacts with Joyce in certain limited ways, and doesn’t have much of a choice but to sraw her opinions based on what she does see, rather than what she doesn’t know anything about.
Doesn’t mean she’s suddenly right, but it’s so frustratingly understandable and reasonable I can’t help but love it even as I want to kick down the fourth wall and shout “It’s more complicated than that!” at her.
Joyce tachnically has a point, but it’s also still Dina’s decision to not wanna talk about it with her, and Joyce has gotta respect that. Even if Dina’s being a dick about it.
lol, i say, lmao
rofl, even
I’m with Dina on this one even though my experiences are more than half a century behind me. You cannot know or even imagine the things I went through as a child.
I won’t talk about who is right or not in my comment, if Dina or Joyce.
It’s a personal thing I have, after reading the today page.
One of hardest feelings I had in my life is the impossibility of reach someone. Me, trying to approach to some person. I came with a nice gesture, or totally happy to this person.
Or I can calmly start explain all your points, or I can came objectively to they, asserting my points aggressivily.
No, nothing is enough to reach this person. I have hurt they so badly, to a point this person can not trust me anymore. Or their person doesn’t believe in my efforts or services anymore, and all their time with me is focused to get rid of me as soon as possible.
This is the most frustating feeling I’ve felt and I’m feeling in my entire life, the power to reach into people.
If it’s any help Amos, your kind words to me earlier, when I was stressed about some of the comments, really helped me feel a bit better.
I sympathize, we all make mistakes, put our foot in our mouth, learn and grow and realize past beliefs or behaviors might have been problematic, and it’s really hard when nothing you do in the present seems to make up for how a person feels about you based on past interactions.
One of the most difficult things I’ve had to learn is that we will not always get along with everyone. Sometimes, no matter what you do or how hard you try, some people will not like you. They may have real justification for feeling that way, they may not, but when a person is clearly unreceptive to changing their position on how they feel about you, sometimes the best option is to just back off, give them the space they want, and accept that relationship is a lost cause. It sucks, it hurts, it’s not easy at all, but it’s a thing that sometimes has to happen.
I do think it gets a bit easier with time and practice. This used to be completely impossible for me, but now I’m more able to just accept it and move on eventually. But it never gets completely easy, at least it hasn’t for me. I do sometimes envy those who seem unaffected by conflict or clashes with others.
In any case, whatever the context behind this comment, know that today you made at least one person, a person who does not know you, feel better with only a few words, and that’s something worth feeling good about. <3
*realizes he hasn’t seen todays comic*
*reads and nods, letting out a light chuckle at the joke at the end, finding the subject interesting*
*sees that there’s almost 600 comments on the comic*
*slowly backs away*
Don’t worry, we’re mostly talking aboutDigimon.
I’ve heard they’ve got more power.
Wow never seen this many comments since 7 years ago
Wait weren’t you here for Joyce’s big blowout with Becky re:atheism?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/too
*Ctr + F name*
Ah no wonder why I didn’t notice, I left the page not realizing I’m only 1/8th from the top of the comments page lmao
Is 700 the record? :0
Pretty sure we cleared 1000 at some point.
We did! When we found out Joshua is not Joshua, but Jocelyne. I’m sure there’s others, but that was the one I remembered. We almost hit 1000 when Joyce and her eldest brother who’s name I won’t bother remembering were arguing at a restaurant.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/writer/
There was on strip that got over 1300 comments, but I don’t remember which one … dealing with abusive childhood, I think.
ah right, I remember that.
“If you were ever spanked, your parents abused you, they were abusers.”
gosh, can’t imagine why that would set people off.
Well somebody’s gotta say it…
Can we get 666 comments?!?! 😈
Sorry, I am the 667# comment.
ahaha
Dina is still mad at Joyce for calling her a robot girl, which happened recently in the comic. Becky when she finds out about this conflict will probably make them get along, which may involve getting them both on the same page when it comes to things that Becky knows about each of them that they don’t know about each other. Without as many false assumptions about each other, and with proper apologies, theyll get along, probably.
Problem is Becky might still have some lingering hurt over the Atheism argument they had
I do like the idea of Becky using her powers for good
I dunno, I can’t help but think that this could severely backfire on Becky.
After all, this isn’t Smarting of Age.
Yep. :\
Remember, Becky is still resentful over Joyce abandoning their faith (even though their takeaways were vastly different). She could very well say something disparaging about atheists that ticks Dina off. By trying to being the two people she cares about most together, she could alienate them both. It’s a fine line. A very fine line. (Split decision.)
Tbh I both forgot about that argument and forgot just how recently it was in comic time once I realized it happened. That definitely adds an extra layer to Dina’s ire I’m sure. If this was Smarting of Age, she’d outright tell Joyce that was a hurtful ableist statement within the context of Dina’s autism, and that Joyce really needs to apologize and consider her words more carefully in the future, and Joyce would apologize and realize with horror how she has been engaging in ableism against someone with the same condition as herself, and how extra shitty that is.
But it is not Smarting of Age, as The Wellerman said here! And we gotta have some drama before we have a chance of them getting to that point. 😉
If Becky, Dina and Joyce are all together by themselves any time soon, any other discussion on any other topic(s) will be derailed by Becky subtly hinting that she and Dina TOTALLY FUCKED YO, so that Becky can have the satisfaction of defending herself against Joyce’s disapproval.
(I am personally very invested in that interaction not going the way Becky, consciously or not, wants and expects it to go.)
The funniest outcome of that would be Joyce brushing it off, like “Oh, that’s what y’all were keeping from me? That’s it?” and then Becky looking deflated.
Something like that would be funny, yes. I’d settle for funny, but I’d rather see Joyce hurt – not angry, but genuinely hurt – and Becky forced to confront and acknowledge how she’s treated her “best friend” for… well, a while now.
I was gonna read all the comments like usual but then i realized i was like a hundred in and still not near half way so fuck that
Everyone’s saying variations of the same thing for 600 comments, jesus
Neither character is in the wrong here and the comments don’t know how to handle that
Personally I think it’s okay for Dina and Joyce to have different perspectives on their given situation
I also think whilst both have been rude it’s really just bad luck more than anything else as to why they struggle to connect
I’m hoping it gets better and they can connect
Yeah, even if there is a chance they will eventually connect, being in the same neurodivergent category is hardly a solid foundation for their friendship. 😐
And from an alternative perspective, Dina, you had parents who cared enough about you to repeatedly try and seek out psychological help and try to provide you with opportunities to improve, as well as generally supporting you learning about the world as it is, while Joyce has a whipped father and harpy of a mother who would oppose any attempts by her to become better, and basically brainwashed her from birth.
Tradeoffs.
I’m just popcorn.gif at these comments.
Glad you’re enjoying yourself! Don’t forget the French Toast Sticks, Wendy!!! 🤡
*plays “Circus Source” by Richard Bellis on hacked muzak*
What if each time Character Wars puts the comments at 666, Willis draw a version of the iconic Joyce-Sal fight, only with the characters currently at war in the comments?
“But, (insert appropriate character here), you never changed … and I have”
Gonna play the wildcard and say professor brock is the one being the worst here
I totally sympathise with Dina’s reaction. I’ve lashed out for feeling like my negative experiences in something are being downplayed, before.
did this comment section forget that Dina was delayed diagnosis by a racist doctor?
does this comment section realize that while it’s hard for women/femmes to get diagnosed for autism, it’s EVEN HARDER for women/femmes of color?
can we please discuss how the intersections of Dina’s existence is also fueling her anger?