I mean you can’t. NFTs are a way to own your artistic creation in an expensive and singular indivisible form, as opposed to the endless unmonetizable copies of a right click image file
Like I can’t run a ponzi scheme tricking people into buying just JPEGs, obviously.
I wouldn’t say you own the piece itself (after all, that can be easily duplicated and shared around), rather you own a token associated with the piece.
It’s like, if you bought a pizza at a restaurant you don’t actually own the pizza; the recipe is out there and anyone can eat it – you instead own the receipt of the pizza. The proof that you bought it.
…
Why not just .. buy a pizza?
Or in this case, buy art? Like a commission or a painting? Everyone can see it, but it DOES belong to you, in some capacity
Yeah, buying a receipt that says you bought a receipt for an ugly .jpg isn’t actually adding anything you can’t get from just saving the .jpg. There’s no added benefit.
Yes, but some very smart not gullible people believe that tying that .jpg to a token adds a ton of benefit that makes it worth a lot of money, and Those people are willing to pay that lot of money to completely legitimate businessmen for it
Or they could just collect Yu-Gi-Oh! cards. I saw a $500 Dark Magician at a nerd shop last week, and the only thing special about it was a neat holographic texture.
Yeah. It’s actually already on your computer; that’s how you’re seeing it. The trick is mostly keeping it from getting deleted when the cache times out.
I agree honestly, Becky didn’t feel the need to accuse Dina or Dorothy of “just humoring” her despite them not believing in heaven either. I think it’s completely fair of Becky to be upset with Joyce for talking about her faith like that and it’s even somewhat fair to say “You’re only sorry because I heard you” but it feels unfair of her to complain about the party now because one way or the other Joyce was trying to do something nice for Becky on a day that was very hard for both of them
I mean for some religious people finding out someone they grew up with is now an atheist is a different experience to just meeting someone who is an atheist.
I’m sure she’ll adjust but its not surprising it was a little jarring for her. Specially given HOW she found out.
Yeah, it definitely seems to be the case that some religious people have a lot more trouble dealing with the fact that someone they grew up with who used to believe like them is now an atheist, than someone they’ve met more recently who’s been an atheist since before they met.
If I recall, it’s because Joyce (who, at that point, had been drugged and very nearly raped, found out that her parents’ marriage was barely holding together, and also learned that her parents only let her attend IU because they believed her to be too brainwashed to ever question the faith, just to name a few points) hadn’t dealt with enough to be permitted to question that faith, as per Rebecca’s standards. Also, her lesbian girlfriend wanted lesbian Rebecca to have lesbian premarital lesbian hanky-panky with lesbian her, because LESBIAN, and she wanted Joyce to focus on that. So naturally, she’s going to be a petulant brat when she finds out that Joyce isn’t going to be the same person no matter what.
True, but roughly 75% of Rebecca’s personality at the time was LESBIAN in screaming neon lights a mile high, and I sincerely believe that her brain was inserting the word into any space into which it could be crammed at that moment. I should have put that part in quotes, because it was meant as what I imagined her train of thought was during that scene.
@King Daniel
Yeah, that’s technically the safer bet, and it’s what I’d use for someone I didn’t know well.
Buuuut as a bi/pan person myself, I can’t say it bothers me too much as long as I can tell from context the person isn’t trying to ignore bi people exist? Like, I call myself GAAAAY all the time even though I’m bi LOL
True and that’s fair as well, but I have noticed this comment section to have an unfortunate tendency from time to time of “forgetting” that bi/pan characters are, in fact, bi/pan (see all the comments to that effect when Ruth hooked up with Jason, or right below me where someone asked “since when” was Dina not a lesbian), so…helps to reaffirm that sometimes.
Willis has gone on record several times as stating that characters’ sexualities remain consistent between the Walkyverse and Dumbiverse. In the Walkyverse, Dina slept with Mike and was Walky’s girlfriend for a fair while; in the Dumbiverse, she has said herself to be “unconcerned” with the gender of her partner. Hence, she is most likely bi or pan – but not a lesbian.
Since always? Dina has been stated in multiple places to be ace (or ace adjacent). Based on in-comic portayal, I would guess a full estimation of Dina’s preferences to be sex-positive asexual (not sexually attracted to anyone but still interested in sexual pleasure and intimacy and has a sex drive) and bi/panromantic (romantically interested in multiple genders/regardless of gender). Which is not “lesbian”.
Yeah by the looks of it, Joyce for some reason is the only one in Becky’s life who’s somehow not allowed to be an atheist.
If I had to take a guess, I think Joyce was Becky’s anchor in Christianity. Sure, she had lots of atheist/agnostic friends, but Joyce, her childhood and current best friend, was (by all appearances) Christian just like her. That probably kept her feeling confident and secure in her religiosity, because she wasn’t alone in it. Finding out that Joyce is actually an atheist now and hearing her trash talk Christianity has to be crushing and isolating, and that’s a good portion of why she’s lashing out as hard as she is.
Becky may be going to lash out. She may be intending to lash out. As of yet she hasn’t done so. She has withdrawn and she has asked a good question. This is very different from lashing out.
Becky’s insecurity does not allow for her friends to step outside the boxes she has created. Dina must not be sexually available. Dotty must not be likeable. Joyce must be her eternal pal in Christ. She’s clinging to those constants, no matter how much the affected people want to move outside them, because it’s all that gives her security.
Why? People calling her “Dotty” is why I started saying “Rebecca” in the first place, but I’m the only person getting called out over it. That’s bullshit.
@HeWhoAbides yeah because you’re being weird about it. The only other person who ever called her Rebecca was the Toe, and aren’t you the one who said you feel like all the horrible things that happened to her after coming out were retroactively justified because she’s a little obnoxious? It adds up to being fucking weird
Not to mention, calling Dorothy dotty has basis in the comic because Becky does it. Other than the Toe, you’re the only one who’s ever called her Rebecca
Well this has got interesting. We’ve arrived at a nexus of being free to use/make non-standard/nicknames for fictional characters, but also being called out for it as if it were as serious as dead-naming a transperson, chiefly because it is now being used as a reason to call out commentators for maintaining a standard of when they’ll get angry about it but not being alert or engaged enough to respond within a timeframe of our own selection which is inscrutible to all but ourselves. It seems to me that [real|fictional] entities, 1, 2, …, n-1, n, and self should all talk a walk outside and take a few deep breaths.
It’s not that people in Becky’s life aren’t allowed to be atheists.
It’s that they’re not allowed to be apostates.
…. okay, Becky PROBABLY would be a bit more accepting than that, but she’s put up some red “don’t assume I’ll be accepting” flags over the past few months and there’s grounds for a BIT of anxiety there. And for someone like Joyce, a bit of anxiety is…. nope. Just nope. That’s even scarier than OATMEAL.
I don’t think it’s that. It’s that what she heard Joyce saying. What she heard her saying, essentially, is everyone who believes in God is an idiot. From her perspective, her best friend has been mocking her behind her back for believing in God. Had Joyce talked to her about how she was doubting her faith or even told her straight up that she was an atheist, I don’t think Becky would be acting like this.
I mean, Becky *knows* that Dorothy and Dina don’t believe in God, and that they attended that party because they wanted to support her. That was an honest relationship. She and Joyce commiserated specifically over (what she thought) was their shared faith, with Joyce comforting her with religious messages, and then the next day she walks in on her saying “religious people are so stupid lol they believe in all this heaven nonsense”.
*We* all know that Joyce has been having a crisis of faith and is still figuring out what she believes. What Becky knows is that her best friend has been laughing at her behind her back.
It also involves letting yourself be vulnerable in a way that’s really scary. Like, I think the whole thing with Liz was Joyce trying to pretend that she’s a Cool Atheist right now because “I don’t believe in what I used to and now I don’t totally know who I am” is a really scary thing to talk about or think about.
Especially with someone who still does believe in those things.
From the context of the entirety of Liz’s visit, it was also spawned by “trying to be cool around my ‘cool’ friend”, until it became uncomfortable and then angry…
Joyce wasn’t laughing at Becky. She was trying to impress Liz by carpet-bombing her old beliefs. And upsetting herself because without her faith, Joyce feels, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
That’s why she was doing it. But what she actually was doing was mocking believers like Becky. We can sympathize with her reasons without pretending it was harmless.
I don’t think Dorothy or Dina humored her by talking about her mom watching from up in heaven. Joyce did, even though she doesn’t believe that any more.
Becky even sensed something was off, but Joyce deflected her with a scriptural technicality.
I don’t think that’s the same thing- she *knew* how Dina and Dorothy felt. Realizing that your best friend was lying to you about something that important- even though it wasn’t malicious at all- that’s a tough thing to grapple with. And to go from thinking she’d shared something genuine with Joyce to hearing her calling all believers stupid- you’re going to feel like, what else has this person been lying to me about?
To be clear, I don’t think Joyce did anything wrong- not even the venting. It’s a complicated situation that’s going to be tough for both of them to deal with and it’s happening in a way where both their emotions are pretty raw.
No hole to dig out of. The answer is “Yes, because I care about you and it was something that brought you comfort. I didn’t yet feel comfortable sharing this realization with you, and I didn’t want to verbally attack your mom who you obviously care about.”
It is the same as if some random person tells me I’m ‘blessed’. Which frankly I would really rather they didn’t. But I’m not the dick to throw their thanks back in their face by telling them that I’m an atheist.
I get the same feelings when someone throws atheism in people’s faces as when religious nutjobs do it, usually for Christianity, to make whatever it is about them and not the person they are helping.
They’re going to have a deep, hours long heart to heart. Tears will be shed, friendships renewed, the orchestra will swell, and they’ll walk off together to go get some pie.
Meanwhile:
Liz: Eye spy something that begins with…O.
Sarah: Other Jacob. You’ve done that one already.
Liz: I can’t see shit from here, we’re still hugging!
Ironically, showing up without a portfolio and not even realizing you need a portfolio is the most awkward and embarrassing of all portfolios. And it won’t get you in.
Oh definitely! I just think this is one of those times Joyce really really REALLY needed to control the narrative and she had that taken away from her. Like she honestly probably couldn’t have talked to Becky as things were but like this is probably worse even if it’s gonna be a catalyst for a radical realignment of their relationship u kno?
This is also where you need to be careful about weighting conversations. Becky entirely shot Joyce down when she began being honest before so none of this is surprising.
Both characters were always going to have this course. Becky was always going to shut Joyce down and Joyce was always going to want to pretend to be what Becky wanted her to be.
There’s actually a real question of if Becky wants to be friends with the real Joyce or if she just wants her fantasy Joyce in her head. Both characters are facing a real rough road out of childhood.
I mean if you aren’t ready to share something with someone, you aren’t. I can understand why Becky in particular was the one she wasn’t ready to tell the most.
Yeah Becky is a difficult person to be honest with because she’s a bad combinations
A) Incredibly strong willed
B) Incredibly set in her perceptions of Joyce
C) Buried under like 8 layers of irony about things
Like Becky is not an easy person to tell things to, for sure
This is correct. However, it’s always (a bit, performative, a schtick) when Rebecca does something shitty, so let’s pretend that part never happened and she’s a blameless victim again /s
Probably won’t help, but I’m a pretty big proponent of the “it’s a bit” take on Becky and I take a more nuanced view than that.
Much of her stuff is performative. I think that’s pretty clear from the comic. That doesn’t make it okay. It’s perfectly fine to critique her behavior, even as long as you keep in mind that it is performative. If you take it too seriously though, it’s easy to mistake the performative bits as her real motivations and I think that’s a misread of the character.
We see that a lot in recent discussions: If Becky is really and truly motivated by ousting rivals to her status and Joyce’s One Best Christian Friend, then her reasons for going to seek out Joyce and Liz look pretty bad. If that’s a performative bit, then we can speculate on different motives for wanting to see them.
I’m not sure I follow. It’s a bit because if it’s not then Becky’s doing something morally wrong?
Like I don’t think the way she treated Dorothy for years was performative. I don’t think it’s performative now in the sense that I think Dorothy talking to her when getting Joyce’s glasses made Becky twig onto the idea of being her friend, meaning she has to Becky it up super hard to prove to Dorothy that she is cool, affable, smart and knowing in the hopes of securing enough Friendship Points that she can be sad in front of Dorothy and she won’t stop liking her.
If you don’t think it’s a bit, I don’t know what to say. If it isn’t, then it makes sense to trash Becky for what she says, since you think she’s serious about it.
It also makes sense to complain about the bit as a bit – it’s overdone, it’s obnoxious even if she isn’t serious about, etc. It being a bit doesn’t make her immune from criticism.
But, if it is a bit – for example her feud with Dorothy over being Joyce’s Best Friend and now by extension, her need to keep her position as Joyce’s Christian Best Friend, then you can’t assume that what she says as part of the bit is her real motivation. Thus, if that part is a bit, then she didn’t necessarily go charging up to look for Joyce to drive off her rival, even if she said that’s what she was doing.
That’s the sense in which it being performative can be used to defend her. Not that it makes her blameless for what she does as part of the bit, but that we can’t use the performative bit as insight into her real motivations.
So what are we defining as the bit then? The over the top goofball attitude or the perceived motivations like “hates Dorothy” and “the only Cool Christian Friend Joyce is allowed to have”?
Like with Liz for example I don’t think Becky thinks she has to be the objectively ranked Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend, but I think that’s her way of expressing her possessiveness of Joyce for the number of reasons I think she’s possessive of her and in particular wants Joyce to remain her Joyce.
If you are talking about Dina’s party, Joyce may see that as trying to broach the topic in a sincere way, but Becky absolutely didn’t. What Becky saw, mostly incorrectly I believe, was Joyce acting petulantly when she asked for advice. I think if Joyce actually sat down with Becky at any point and said, “Becky, I’m having doubts about believing in God,” it would have gone differently.
Communication is important, but if someone’s not yet ready to tell their very religious friend since childhood that they no longer believe in that religion, they aren’t required to tell that friend just yet. Especially when that friend shut her down and told her it was just a phase when she came close to telling her the previous time. I’ve suspected for some time now that regardless of how she found out, Becky probably wasn’t going to react well to learning that Joyce is now an atheist.
I’m taking a moment from the pretending these are real people to appreciate DW and say thanks for actually getting down to it, rather than cutting away to a different plotline.
This is the Main Event right now, and it’s good to treat it as such.
I don’t think she was humoring Becky. Those sentiments were genuine. Just because you don’t personally believe something doesn’t mean you can’t be sincere in celebrating someone else’s belief.
Also I don’t think Joyce has truly come to terms with whether she’s atheist or not. We haven’t really seen acceptance of that yet. She just came back from break like “I guess I’m an atheist now.” without her really exploring that rational. Half heartedly roasting Christianity with Liz doesn’t prove much to me. Frankly I’m not sure what Joyce believes anymore.
Trying to comfort someone in pain strikes me as a very Christian act, in the best possible sense of the word. So I’d say Joyce was doing the right thing at the birthday party. That really wasn’t the time to bring up her crisis of faith. Granted, I’m not sure when the best time would be…
The best time to tell Becky y’know besides probably anytime during the time skip would have to be one of the several times Becky asked her upfront if something was wrong or brought of the topic of religion in anyway. Like here.
There’s a difference between finding out whats bothering someone (see how Joe handles it with Joyce) and how Becky handles it, especially in the last link where it sounds like Becky is demanding answers from Joyce
absolutely not on the second one. when a religious person is grieving is not a good time to out your new irreligion/atheism to them. There are more delicate ways to have handled that conversation, and Joyce wasn’t prepared for them at all.
But Becky put her in a situation with no correct options there. Fucking great way to put your friend through an inquisition. Ya, she was humoring Becky. Becky made that the option for her to choose to be comforting.
I’m not gonna argue anniversary of Becky’s, mother’s, death is really bad timing to talk about maybe not believing in heaven with her, but the fact is there was never a good time for this revelation. Joyce’s only options were bad timing or worse timing and every time she avoided the issue the timing only got worse until it couldn’t get any worse.
So trying to justify this with excuses about timing or it not being appropriate for the moment is what created this situation and I guarantee Becky feels worse now than she would if Joyce had talked to her any moment before now.
Also, Joyce probably doesn’t want Becky to try to keep her religious. Just thinking back to who and when I talked about this sort of thing to.
Anyways, please don’t say “I’m not going to argue about X” and then accuse me of “justifying with excuses about timing.” Either its up for discussion or it’s not.
When a grieving friend says, “It comforts me that my dead mother is in heaven,” you do not then tell them you think they’re wrong. What created this situation, is the author contrived a way for Becky to overhear Joyce venting, to create drama.
Trying to comfort someone in pain is an act of someone who has sympathy. I’m not sure what you mean by “very Christian act”, but it rubs me the wrong way. Christians are more or less sympathetic than other people.
As far as what the religion literally says, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury the dead.”
I wonder if the back-and-forth with Liz made Joyce think “is this what atheists are really like behind closed doors”, and if that made her a little less sure of her stance again.
Yeah, I strongly doubt Joyce knows what Joyce believes in. A long while back, people were bringing up nihilism and it fits as a phase she’s going through better than atheism does.
There’s a difference between humoring someone and outright lying about your beliefs/intentions. The difference in this case being for example how the atheists in Becky’s life like Dorothy or Dina went to her mom’s party to talk about her and to be there for Becky but never said anything about her being in heaven. Joyce did. In fact when questioned, she doubled down instead of coming clean to Becky.
This might be a poor comparison I admit, but the comparison I’d jump to in this case would be like ending a relationship. It might be messy but at least if you’re honest that the spark’s just not there, there’s a chance you can salvage the relationship and be friends with your ex later. Or you can go lie about your feelings, maybe start cheating on your partner, and make things infinitely worse.
If nothing else, she was respecting your beliefs, Becky. You don’t go to a funeral, wake, or anything like it and then telling someone “it doesn’t matter because there is no god.”
I don’t know how this is going to impact their friendship but it won’t be fun for anyone involved.
This, I think, gets to the heart of why, while I sympathize with both Joyce and Becky here, my emotions seem to be leaning towards Becky.
Becky’d have to be a saint to not feel lied to here. Her best friend had just the day before this used her (apparent) faith to assure Becky that her mother– who she still desperately misses– is out there somewhere in a better place. And now Becky finds out she was faking the whole thing? Like, fuck yeah, she has a right to be pissed. I’m not saying it’d be reasonable to expect Joyce to tell the truth in the situation she was in, but it’s equally unreasonable to expect Becky not to feel betrayed over it.
When my family had the virus, and one of my parents had to be hospitalized, I didn’t find out about it until everybody was safe and sound. They told me they waited to inform me because they didn’t want me to worry. My loved ones could’ve died and it would’ve been the first I even heard they’d been sick. Fat lot of worry that saved me. All it did was make me feel like I couldn’t trust them to tell me anything. It fucked me up for that whole spring.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that while *we* all know that this is something that Joyce has been struggling and grappling with, all that *Becky* knows is that she walked in on her best friend laughing at her. People keep expecting her to act like Joyce’s therapist instead of a real human person and it’s very weird!
Exactly! Remove religion and replace it with anything else and it would hurt just as much! Walking in to hear your friend going “Look at me, I’m a big dumb who likes *Anime, DnD, football, lizards, cooking, crochet, volleyball, old English stories, etc” would hurt just as much. Just because they both went through some trauma doesn’t mean hearing your friend shitting on your wouldn’t SUCK
I get your point, but Becky’s faith is the core of her worldview, one in which she believed her only remaining ally was Joyce, so that’s far more traumatic than criticizing her hobbies
I’ve basically always been an atheist, so at the end of the day I can’t know what having religious beliefs is like. But… I think I disagree?
My number one relationship fear is just that, that my friends think my taste and interests are stupid. Not that they have to actively like the same things as me, I’m not that picky about who I befriend. But as someone who is extremely skittish about sharing my interests for fear of mockery, yeah, walking in on my best friend saying “WOW SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG SURE IS DUMB AND I LITERALLY DON’T GET HOW ANYONE COULD LIKE HIM” would damage our relationship severely. So, for me personally, I think it’s a decent analogy…?
I feel for everyone involved though. It’s a messy situation. :C
Yeah, making fun of ANY core part of someone is deeply hurtful, it’s just the case that for Becky, her faith is one of her bigger parts in my mind. And if you are mocked for something enough, anything can become an insecurity and therefore deeply hurtful to be mocked for.
Religion often tends to be at the center of a believer’s identity in a way similar to their cultural identity. That’s not to say you have to have faith to understand it; anything you identify yourself with that deeply is analogous. It’s just that if you’re looking at interests vs identity, you might be hurt when someone mocks you for your interests, but most people will be more hurt when they feel their identity is under attack.
That was Katerly’s point though. If it would be traumatic if it was about your hobbies, it would be even worse if it was about your core belief system.
Most people weren’t arguing that Becky doesn’t have a right to be upset here, just that she can’t blame Joyce for her new “opinions” on religion because she didn’t present herself as very receptive to that. Mainly bringing up her dismissive attitude at Dina’s birthday party as an example. The consensus seems to be that Becky holds Joyce to some higher standard because faith was the main thing they had in common even though I don’t think Becky has ever expressed that opinion herself.
Becky’s reacted dismissively to Joyce saying some atheistic stuff in the past, which isn’t a great sign for how open she is to this but that stuff was also the sort of petulant nihilism that a lot of atheists would be dismissive of too so it isn’t ironclad evidence
Like, Joyce was angry and vengeful after a long string of trauma, and then another one happened afterwards.
And she wasn’t even saying anything really wrong, she was saying the rules she was taught are bullshit so Becky might as well go bang Dina, and Joyce is correct because sexual purity is actually bullshit.
But Becky, seeing Joyce lash out for the first time, treated it like a tantrum she’d get over instead of an outpouring of feelings.
I think this is Becky’s, like, third F-Bomb? I don’t have the DoA F-Bomb Chart to hand, but I do remember she said it once at the sushi place soon after she first rejoined the plot, and again when she told her dad she was going to be a scientist.
As much as I like Becky, I gotta be on Joyce’s side on this. While I feel the pain Becky is in right now, there hasnt been a good time for Joyce to bring it up that wouldnt have gotten a poor responce. Joyce was supposed to be Becky’s last christian friend, her last true link to her religious past that she is relying on, so of course she would be upset, she was never going to take this info well, but she is choosing to not listen and assume the worst case scenario (that Joyce has just been humoring her the whole time and was making fun of her), when its clear from the pain that is written on Joyce’s face, that isnt the case.
I really hope Becky lets Joyce tell her the truth about whats going on and actually listens, so their friendship doesn’t end over a misunderstanding. Don’t get me wrong, im not saying Joyce should have been saying those things in the first place (I blame Liz for instigating it though), and she is partly to blame for what she said, but Becky could have stayed to at least ask what was going on.
Yeah, so, my feelings on the matter are that Becky is now making it worse than it is by bringing up the party, in which non-believers WERE present who WERE there just to celebrate someone’s life. Becky knows that, and furthermore, it’s not really a good look for Becky to be bringing it up after, just a few months ago, she was berating Joyce for not taking her crisis of faith into consideration.
She also blew off the first rumblings of Joyce’s crisis of faith at Dina and Sarah’s party, which might have a lot to do with why she wasn’t clued in earlier.
I think Becky needs to take a look at how her faith has warped her sense of reality. She almost torpedo’d a healthy relationship with Dina because she had been taught couple engage in passive-aggressive behavior all her life. She’s now poised to ruin her relationship with Joyce because of her religious brainwashing, as well.
She literally lost both of her parents as a direct result of her religion. Yet she still clings to it. Cults, yo.
There is absolutely no reason for Becky to know or think that because, unlike us, she has not been privy to the details of Joyce’s internal struggles. As far as she knows or has reason to think, Joyce has been pretending to still be Christian with her while laughing behind her back.
Yeah but just because she thinks it doesn’t make it right.
We know otherwise, we know how much this has been eating away at Joyce, so it’s easier for us to go “Becky, no! She actually fought two separate dads for you!”
I’m gonna agree with Nathan here. We’re privy to a while hell of a lot that Becky isn’t, and while we can draw a line between Liz’s broad comments and Joyce’s self-directed ones, as well as the emotional states of both women at the time, the nuance is a lot less clear to people who walked into the middle of the conversation, especially without any way of realizing that Joyce was deliberately avoiding them.
Why do you have to be on someone’s “side” for this? Becky’s hurt for real and legitimate and understandable reasons, and she’s lashing out. Joyce is going through some difficult shit regarding her faith and how to engage with her friends honestly about it, and hurt her oldest friend without meaning to and feels awful about it.
Acknowledging either character’s pain does not invalidate the other’s pain. They’re not having an argument, there’s no reason to take a side here.
I’m not sure there ever would have been a good time for Joyce to tell Becky about her atheism. Based on how she seems to view Joyce as her childhood Christian friend, and how she reacted the previous time when Joyce came close to telling her about her troubles with their religion, shutting her down and telling her it was a phase she needed to grow out of, I’m not convinced Becky would have reacted well to finding out Joyce is an atheist no matter how she found out.
Interesting to see if Joyce will be able to draw the fine line between “sorry for being extremely callous” and “sorry for becoming atheist”, because she’s only truly sorry for one of those things but might end up apologizing for both in her guilt
When you are hurt and full of misery,
And buffeted by sheets of sorrow like driving rain
That flies flat in the wind so thickly you feel you’re going to drown,
Then religious acquaintances are allowed to say
“I hope you’re wrong about religion, too
“And living in defiance of my jealous God”,
Because “I will pray for you” is licensed comforting.
But if you say to them “I hope you’re right.”
That’s two-face hypocrisy.
Even if it’s true.
Joyce didn’t say “I hope you’re right”. She lied about believing Becky was right. Understandably, since that would have been an awful time to get into her losing faith, but it’s also understandable Becky’s hurt by being lied to – especially in light of the apparent mockery today.
Mind you, I get annoyed by the “I will pray for you” stuff, but it’s so ubiquitous it mostly just fades into the background.
It’s a tricky situation, that is easy to be unprepared for, for the new apostate. Religion tells people a script, and Joyce was out there needing to, on the fly, thread a needle, and just plowed into the safer of two walls.
There’s some advice out there in dealing with things like that, how to be prepared for navigating tricky situations. But mostly what potential apostates run across are other people venting, and answers to questions about science, religion, and epistemology.
IIRC, “Coming Out Atheist”, by Greta Christina, has some good practical advice.
Yeah, I’m not even saying Joyce was wrong in that situation. It would have been a horrible time to shift the conversation to Joyce’s deconversion and Becky likely wouldn’t have let any evasion go easily – which we saw when she jumped on Joyce’s hesitation and was only deflected by standard Joyce Bible quoting tactics.
But that doesn’t change the pain when it does come out the next day.
Ideally she would would have confronted the problem earlier, at a less wrought time and while it still would very likely have been painful and awkward, it would have been less so than it turned. But this isn’t Smarting of Age, as we like to say around here.
It also seems like Joyce has only gotten comfortable enough to start telling people in active ‘may not be Christian anymore’ phrasing since the timeskip, even though things started hitting critical Crisis of Faith mode with the Rich Mullins dream – she’s still freaking out when Sarah calls her an atheist, she’s willing to allude to it to Dorothy when planning the Not-Roomies strip, but I think it’s really only been the last two storylines (the ‘I’m just a monkey!’ talk with Joe and then the Judas one with Liz) where she’s been willing to not just say ‘I may not believe in God anymore’ but ‘I don’t.’ Which means the opportunities to tell Becky were probably right when they got back (especially since she’s almost certainly NOT ready for Hank to know and would want to make sure he can’t.)
Should she have done it then? Probably. But given this was likely Becky’s first big familial anniversary date since Ross’s death (plus the first Mom’s Birthday without her mom,) while I suspect Becky wouldn’t have taken it as badly without the talk last night I still don’t think her mental state would have been great with this on the horizon. This was going to be Drama either way.
“I’m sorry” is the beginning of a conversation here, not the end of it. I am glad that Joyce isn’t beating around the bush, but I am also glad Becky’s airing her grievances. Both of these are needed here.
Unfortunately it’s isn’t going to be easy, because Joyce hasn’t (as far as I can tell) sorted out her answers to “why don’t you believe?” and “what do you believe?”
I wonder if Becky wants to be friends with Joyce, new atheist Joyce or does she only like old, compliant Joyce who was happy being (ironically enough) Beckys straight man
I think ultimately she’d be fine being friends with new Joyce (after all she’s friends with tolerates Dorothy and is dating Dina) but it’s the lies that really hurt.
Plus the way she was saying it. She knows Dorothy and Dina are atheists but they’re not obnoxious about it. As opposed to the way she and Liz were talking which, for lack of a better term, was just really douchey about the whole thing.
Yeah, I’m a little disappointed with this strip, just for that reason. Not that the narrative & all that isn’t already impressive, I just miss the little extra oomph of finality/closure/(comic) relief that each comic usually has. Dunno if someone with more comic theory chops has the right words for what I’m saying.
Willis does this a lot. It’s exactly the opposite of why people criticize the MCU.
While the MCU will often immediately break tension with a joke, good story writing lets you inhabit the emotional space of something important. I usually hear it phrased as “letting it breathe”.
That’s basically what Willis is doing. This is heavy stuff, but he doesn’t want you to be distracted from it. You miss how often he does it mostly because there are several thousand strips and he’s probably only done it a few dozen times.
That’s it, everyone should just start avoiding stairs altogether. From now on, the comic takes place in a horizontal, featureless area where everyone is happy and drama free and…
Becky is one of my least favorite characters, but I am baffled at the amount of support *Joyce* is getting over Becky. Becky asking if Joyce was humoring her makes sense. Proud keep bring up Dina and Dorothy being at the party but like… neither of them have ever said people were stupid for believing in god. Joyce said that despite knowing that her *best friend* in Christian, just because she thought Becky was out of earshot? That sucks. I get that there “wasn’t a good time” to bring it up before, but the thing is, there wasn’t a good time presented in events as they passively happened. Joyce should have *made* a time. Joyce could have pulled Becky aside anytime over the past couple of days. Joyce knew she lost her faith sometime during the time skip, so she had days if not months to at least make a phone call. It’s completely wild to me that people are taking Joyce’s side when she literally said that people like Becky were idiots behind Becky’s back.
This is a comic strip that’s attractive to people who have exited Christianity–often fundamentalist, cultish Christianity–on bad terms. So you’re going to get a lot of people who identify strongly with Joyce, and people who’d naturally ally with an ex-fundie. Joyce isn’t the main character on a whim, after all; she’s always been autobiographical to an extent, and Willis has defended his depictions of her life with personal experience.
So a lot of people aren’t going to see this objectively. That’s not a bad thing. It’s a great thing. But it’s also a true thing and it’s going to the color the hell out of all the comments.
Ohhh that makes a lot of sense. I’m not religious – my parents are/were Hindu, and it wasn’t super forced/taught to me, so it’s hard to even say I “left” it. I guess in that regard I relate to Dorothy the most.
I knew that Joyce was autobiographical to Willis, but I never considered that she would be basically autobiographical to a lot of the audience too
I’m a recovering Catholic for a few decades now, but:
Isn’t that, philosophically, part of many religions’ point? Having belief isn’t supposed to be easy 100% of the time, the path to whatever end isn’t supposed to cleared of all obstruction.
(There are some religions which don’t feature this, but I won’t pretend to know.)
What’s always interested me about that argument is that it seems to be a post-hoc justification for why it is so challenging. I mean, if you read the Bible, back in those times God was showing up and providing evidence all over the place. Blatant miracles are all over the Old Testament and done by Jesus in the Gospels. There are stories of miracles leading to conversion throughout the early church.
Why, if faith is supposed to be a challenge, did God used to provide so much evidence to establish the faith?
Finally the moment of truth has arrived. I think/hope their friendship will survive, but at least for a few days they won’t be able to talk to each other.
Very difficult conversation, I’m glad Joyce apologised and we’re getting to the deeper issues but still.
As others have said, Beckys need for everyone to fit in a box has finally hit a breaking point and I fear she might hold onto Joyce being a real dingdong with Liz (which Joyce was), so she doesn’t have to confront the fact that the people around her change and it’s not a bad thing. I also hope Joyce doesn’t completely backslide on her atheism just because the second it became real someone got hurt.
Of course she was humouring you. Doing/saying stuff you don’t believe in to support them is EXACTLY what you do for friends. What do you think Dorothy and Dina were doing there? They didn’t even KNOW your mum, they sure as hell weren’t doing it for HER.
This is veering teeteringly close to “how dare you not believe what I believe”.
Or, alternatively, hear me out: Hurt person who feels lied to by their closest friend for the last couple decades of life and Three’s Companied their way into hearing them mock faith in some rather harsh ways (yes, yes, I know, Joyce was talking about herself, Becky does not remotely have the context needed to understand that) is saying harsh things while lashing out.
Can people please, just for a moment, stop assuming the absolute worst about Becky? It’s… getting really ugly.
Part of the problem these last few days is that we’ve all been using the same words to have like six conversations.
Because Joyce is also a Hurt Person who has been Lied To the last couple of decades, except instead of her friend it was every single institution of authority she was told to believe in. Joyce lashed out at them and Becky got hurt by that, except Becky being hurt by something Joyce said and Joyce hurting Becky are two separate things to me.
And then there’s the other details like Joyce lashing out in a private conversation that Becky intruded on, Joyce lashing out at what she used to believe in and how Becky needs Joyce to be unchanging, Joyce lashing out and Becky only catching the angry outburst and not every single detail we’re privy to in Joyce’s head that makes me a lot more sympathetic to her even if I understand why Becky is so upset.
‘Cause not only have plenty of us been assuming the worst in Joyce, so have Becky and Dorothy, and yeah JBento’s correct that part of what is motivating Becky, what I think is up top really, is that Joyce has stopped believing in what Becky thinks she’s supposed to.
Perhaps, and no doubt has a lot of the strife the last few days in the comments been about how people tend to be having different arguments with each other.
Something that I know I should do (and often fail at) is reserving judgement on characters until after a scene is finished. We know Becky is lashing out. We know Joyce has massive post-religious angst going on that she’s lacked a healthy outlet for. We can talk about those aspects without throwing blame around at characters, especially when its blame that’s probably going to be negated outright in a day or two when the next couple in-universe minutes of this conversation happen.
My point is just that Becky and Joyce aren’t having an argument here where it’s a matter of one side being right and the other being wrong. There’s just no reason to pick a side here, we can give both of them warm, comforting hugs until there actually is a line in the sand here.
Becky and Joyce both have valid feelings, they are acting like actual real human beings having a painful and terrible conversation, but since we’re reading them happen and can go moments and dialogue frozen in time in perpetuity, we can start thinking about things that were this scenario to actually happen, nobody would consider.
‘Cause like for me, Becky can feel things. Becky has an innate human right to get absolutely tilted, but even if I can acknowledge that, I can still acknowledge she (and Dorothy, more so Dorothy) have been making some terrible mistakes that led to this pain she’s feeling.
Becky’s here because she’s wildly over-possessive of Joyce and when told as such thought it was hilarious. Becky walked in on the tail-end of a private conversation without any other context. Becky just stormed off (this part is fine) and then nobody else took a minute to say “Joyce I don’t know what’s going on and we can talk about it” because they don’t have the emotional weight in Joyce Becky has, but all Dorothy could do is Mom it up.
And Becky would be hurt no matter how Joyce phrased herself, because she needs Joyce to believe.
It’s a heated and painful conversation where agonizing seconds get dropped once every 24 hours, and so we’ve got a lot of time to consider every single piece of nuance that goes into the characters’ heads, but if you’re wanting Joyce to Make It Right somehow then every strip of her not doing that feels painful, the way, say, Becky’s complete lack of understanding of Dina’s sexual inclinations is painful, because of course Becky would have no idea how to process Dina being asexual but that still means Becky is going “dang Leslie I dunno if Dina not wanting to have sex with me means we can stay together” and that’s upsetting to read about even with, if not because, of the window I’ve got into her head.
Well, no, Joyce was actually totally lashing out in nihilistic anger because at that point she still considered herself a Christian.
But yeah that kind of strikes me as a good indicator to Joyce that she can’t actually talk about this stuff, because even when she was still a Christian she questioned it for the first time and Becky got mad at her.
Turns out I’m actually only going to sleep five hours despite my best efforts so:
Let’s get into Becky in each of these panels.
So one thing that I immediately think about is whether fundamentalists, like, deliberately expose their kids to annoying atheist takes to go “see? The secularists are jerks! Like they say we are!” but as for Becky herself: she doesn’t care about what was said, she cares that Joyce was the one who said it. That strikes me as fairly obvious but I’ve also been pretty stringent that anything Joyce could say would set Becky off, and we’ll get to that.
The second panel just kinda bugs the crap out of me because “you’re sorry you got caught” is one of the most annoying things to say in the universe, but it does help frame how Becky could be processing this: Joyce did A Bad Thing, Joyce kept secrets, Joyce has been lying and Becky has loved Joyce this whole time while Joyce lied to her. And on some level she is right to say “sorry I heard you” because when you get down to it, Joyce is apologizing for what Becky heard, except what I think that means is that Becky thinks Joyce needs to apologize, or has otherwise hurt her, for what she thinks.
And then there’s the third panel, which while I think is on the surface about Becky’s feelings of betrayal, I think Becky is experiencing that betrayal to begin with because she needs Joyce to believe too, because she assigns a lot of importance to Joyce and in particular the Joyce that’s always been around, and that latter Joyce is gone.
I think Becky puts a lot of importance onto Joyce and a lot of importance in her faith, and so far they’ve worked hand in hand, and now Becky just found out Joyce thinks Becky will never see her mom again after she committed suicide, she’s gone forever, and Becky’s last memory of her will be finding her body.
With the “sorry you got caught” bit, there’s likely a question of “How long have you been mocking me behind my back?”
We know she hasn’t been, as we also know it wasn’t really aimed at Becky, but Becky doesn’t know that.
Yeah that too. We know this is a recent development but for all Becky knows, at least in the immediate aftermath and currently rushing emotions, it’s been indefinite.
I think it’s reasonable to conclude that a pair of families who tried to make a public statement by going to Chick-fil-a also probably worked to tear down atheists in private. Like, that’s not a huge thing, but it’s not a small thing either.
No I mean, like, do fundies have Top 10 Atheist Blunders lists? Do they expose their kids to the idea that atheists are, inherently, stupid and wrong people?
People in the comments think this is the kind of narrative where you have to take sides because there is one “right” side and one “wrong” side, so they think they have to choose between Becky and Joyce. Joyce is the main character, so she should be on the “right” side, right?
I mean I think Joyce is right and Becky is wrong, like in a “social rules and their existing dynamic” kind of way, but I don’t think the explosive feelings on display are wrong.
Or they argue against one character being painted as completely right and therefore get shoehorned onto the “other character is completely right” side.
When what’s really going on in the comic these days is that characters are being brought into conflicts where no one is completely right or completely wrong. (Other than the kidnapping arc and some of the other parental story threads.)
Yyyyyep. Getting tilted over fictional people and things that don’t matter can be fun, but some people take it way too far (eg, justifying homophobia against Becky because she’s obnoxious). And i guess nicknames are a war crime or something idk
I’m gonna say this arc is really really good in terms of a exploring fundamental issue between Becky and Joyce, both lovely characters who are just trying to find happiness despite their issues. The fact that the problem is outside their control(Joyce being a jerk aside) just adds to the tension of it. My read of Joyce is a person realising she never had faith and then losing everything that required pretending she had faith. This has lead her to a lot of hurt because can she be good if she couldn’t even have faith, Becky being(to Joyce) better because she could.
Whereas Becky is desperate for control because of course she is, everything has changed so suddenly and there’s a safety in figuring someone out and then keeping them in that box. Change is hard, especially for Becky who maybe associates any change effected by her as bad, and that guilt has got to be weighing on her. Much like Joyce saying religion is dumb was self directed I think Beckys anger here might be the same, anger at not just Joyce being a jerk but maybe becoming a jerk because of her. This is of course false but Becky is in a vulnerable space so it’s understandable.
No ones better, no ones worse(except again for Joyce’s jerk moment), just 2 friends struggling. Love this series(and yes I love Joyce and Becky, even when they’re kind of annoying me)
Agreed. It wouldn’t be nearly so effective if they weren’t BOTH deeply sympathetic characters who have been through hell and are reacting in related but distinct ways… which are now hurting each other.
short answer, yes, long answer is a memorial of a person is always worth celebrating as a coping mechanism for everyone involved, and she probably loved and misses her almost as much. You don’t need to believe there is literally someone looking down at you from some cloud above for it to have meaning.
Even more awkward when the grieving person learns you don’t believe that because they stumble on you pretty brutal mocking the belief and the believers the very next day.
I mean, I think it’s a bit more awkward to go “actually no, I think your mum’s totally gone for good”. That wasn’t a party for Becky’s mum, not really, in the same way that funerals aren’t for the person who’s actually dead. That was a party to help Becky feel better.
Absolutely it would be.
But then it gets more awkward again when she finds out the next day that you don’t believe that.
It was a shit situation to be in with no good way out. One that existed because she was hiding her lack of belief from Becky.
I think the important lesson to be taken from this whole shebang is that never talking to people at all avoids awkwardness. It makes it really hard to ask for directions, though, so make sure you have a good map (and can read it).
This is basically what I expected to happen when we learned Joyce was an atheist. Becky is having a hard time with it because it is specifically Joyce. Because she grew up with Joyce and Joyce used to believe the most fiercely and she liked when that was the case. She liked when Joyce was the strict rulebook and she was the wacky one triggering her neuroses by stretching rules and bending them. Joyce was the moral center that pulled her back from going completely off the rails. When she wanted to listen to her, she would and when she didn’t, oh what fun she would have triggering her neuroses!
Now that has been lost, their dynamic is different and has to change and she doesn’t know if Joyce has just been mocking her TODAY (even if we know it was likely more about herself than about Becky, from Becky’s perspective that is not the first obvious conclusion) or if she has been for a while, how long she has been faking her faith or if she even still likes her. It’s another thing out of her control as well on top of all the other things that happened out of her control and it spirals a lot of things into uncertainty.
Even though some of those things contradict each other like you wouldn’t waste your time pretending to have faith if you hated someone and you wouldn’t be upset that they overheard you if their feelings didn’t actually matter and your care was insincere.
Joyce is having a lot of hard feelings because of trauma so she didn’t handle it the kindest way, following Liz’s lead on how to express it. Hurting people is difficult for her to actually accept though even when it is necessary. It is sometimes just part of being human. Becky was probably going to be hurt no matter what or how it came out ultimately because like how Becky coming out and getting a haircut and going all lesbian all the time was very fast and overwhelming for Joyce back then, this is overwhelming for Becky. It is a big change to her idea of Joyce. And it plays into the insecurity that likely drives her wildly over possessive nature towards Joyce – that she’ll eventually outgrow her or replace her.
And obviously as outsiders, we can easily see that they just need to communicate here and if they do, they’ll find that feelings are just messy and they care a lot about each other and Joyce has been having a hard time coping with her feelings about religion because they are so linked to trauma now. If they do communicate well here, this could turn into a nice moment where Joyce finds some comfort she really needs.
If they fail to communicate well here, this could turn into a giant argument that creates a giant rift that may or may not heal because this is a David Willis comic.
When did this comment section pretend to be friendly peaceful place? It’s not bad by internet standards, but it’s long been pretty toxic. Especially when main characters come into conflict, there’s a very strong tendency for factions to form painting one as a saint and the other as a monster.
It would help if people wouldn’t treat four panels of a multi-week event as the entirety of what we’ll be shown. Between the Danny/Sal thing and now this, I’ve started to realise that having any non-surface level of investment in this comic and sharing those thoughts is A Bad Idea™.
I don’t think having Opinions on fiction and, theoretically, going hard on them is toxic. I think it gets toxic when we stop treating each other as actual people, but Becky and Joyce are cartoons.
And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”
“It’s a lot more complicated than that–”
“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes–”
“But they starts with thinking about people as things.”
–Granny Weatherwax and Mightily Oats, from Pratchett’s “Carpe Jugulum”
I have, unfortunately, seen a lot of opinions on how to approach Discworld and none of them have crossed the threshold of helping me actually start reading it.
I hear “Small Gods” may be the best starting place, though? inb4 50 differing opinions appear.
Small Gods is a nice standalone, yeah. The chronological order might not be the best because it definitely leans more wacky and disfocused in the early novels, and mostly gets better as Sir Terry Pratchett wrote more books.
P.S. the fact that he got knighted for his writing and also general awesomeness should tell you everything you need to know, see also: Sir Elton John, Sir Patrick Stewart.
@deathjavu I never heard anyone have anything negative to say about Pratchett as a person. In the latest anniversary of his death, I remember a transfolk posting on Twitter that before coming out they’d gone to a Pratchett book signing, and when he asked them their name they let it slip “it’s X for now” or something along those lines. And Pratchett leaned in, asked them “so what is it going to be” and then he signed the book in a way that the person’s name could be read either way.
Like, read all of them, in order. I’ve recently completed the collection and it’s what I’m doing right now. Coincidentally, I’m on Small Gods, which considering the current place of DoA, lol.
If you want another very good DW quote, and possibly a motto, one of my favourites is:
“Them as can do has to do for them as can’t. And someone has to speak up for them as has no voices.”
Small Gods is a good standalone talking about theology, goodness, and belief in really interesting ways.
Mort, Wyrd Sisters, and Guards Guards are all good entry points as the books kicking off three of the biggest subseries, and are around the point Pratchett really started solidifying what he was going to do with the setting. Of them, the City Watch are probably my absolute favorites so I’d recommend Guards Guards, but Wyrd Sisters has some excellent Shakespeare jokes and I do dearly love the witches, and Mort starts the Death series which has some of Pratchett at his finest. Though so do the Witches and City Watch series, so… (Note: Technically, Granny Weatherwax first appears in Equal Rites, so you could argue the Witch books start there, but she’s more of a proto-Weatherwax and Wyrd Sisters is what really introduces Lancre, the exploration of Discworld witches, and the themes there.)
That said, depending on how you count my first Discworld book was either Wee Free Men (which I only realized was a Discworld book after getting into the adult series) or either Reaper Man or Monstrous Regiment or Witches Abroad (I got them all at the same time and can’t remember which was first), and I then proceeded to read the rest piecemeal and out of order – not how most people recommend starting the series, but definitely worked to hook me in the end. Honestly I’d take the reading guides as ‘here’s how we get you hooked, and THEN once you’re invested you should go back and read the rest in either something resembling order or Complete Library Availability Anarchy.’ Either approach is valid there. Look at the summaries and see what grabs you, the only ones I’d say absolutely SHOULDN’T be started with are Night Watch (very much the culmination of the Ankh-Morpork and Watch stories, requiring you to have that investment already, and also the most unveiledly angry of the series in a ‘I love and am disappointed in humanity in equal measure’ way,) Raising Steam and The Shepherd’s Crown (as the last two, and very much written knowing they could well be the last ones.) Is it jarring to go from Going Postal to a way earlier book? Sure! But you can still do it, just expect that once you go back you’re watching the author evolve into someone who could eventually write Going Postal.
This feels like an inversion of the Walkyverse scene where Walky was angry at Joyce for believing Dina was in hell. Come to think of that, they never did circle arounnd back to that, did they? I guess they just agreed to disagree on whether Dina is burning in hell?
Dina herself argued that it was actually an extremely logical and reasonable event with Ruth’s ghost, and that’s hilarious. I get the feeling that if Heaven was real this Dina would do the same.
So, I’m seeing a lot of comments saying this reaction is proof that Becky cannot handle Joyce being Atheist?
And that’s not the issue at all?
The problem is that Joyce has been lying to Becky’s face about a core part of her identity for Becky doesn’t know how long, allowed Becky to connect with her via that identity over a deeply emotional and personal topic, and was then caught shit-talking people who actually have that identity (which includes Becky) behind Becky’s back.
Like, how twisted do you have to be not to think that is a betrayal?
Well we already know Becky can’t handle Joyce being negative about their faith, because the one time Joyce got actually mad at it in Becky’s presence, that Becky should go fuck Dina because the rules are all bullshit and that includes sexual purity, Becky treated it like a tantrum and that Joyce had no cause to think the way she did.
Otherwise my reading of “Becky needs Joyce to be a Christian” is more inference on their existing dynamic and the importance Becky places on Joyce in her life as opposed to anything directly stated in the text.
Do you think Becky saw that as Joyce taking the conversation seriously? She opened with “do whatever.” When I hear that, I feel more like the person saying it just doesn’t care about what I asked rather than them saying its ok and I should do what I want. And later in that same comic Joyce dismisses Becky again by suggesting that she doesn’t care if Becky heard her or not. To Becky, that conversation was not Joyce voicing legitimate concerns. That was Joyce going through a fit that Becky had probably gone through a thousand times at that point. This is coming from someone that honestly can’t believe they are defending Becky of all characters.
Yeah, I kind of regret bringing that up a few days ago. Re-reading it, it sounds more like Joyce is drawing from a dark, nihilistic place than the crisis of faith it stemmed from.
It’s too late so no one’s going to read this, but that’s what I meant when i said Joyce was being an annoying nihilist the other day. There was no real reason to take it as anything more serious than when a teenager first hears about Nietzsche in a YouTube video or something
Because Joyce was being highly negative, except she was being highly negative in the face of repeated trauma and was primarily criticizing the bullshit puritanism that Becky is tying herself in knots with to avoid Dina tying her in the fun kind of knots.
I think in a vacuum it’s totally fine to read it as “Becky thinks Joyce is being insincere”, but what gets me is that this is the first time in Joyce’s life she has actually, legitimately gotten angry at her upbringing in any aspect, and Becky won’t hear her oldest, dearest friend out even for a second.
Because Becky has sure as hell rejected parts of her upbringing, she’s turned away from any part of it that inconveniences her in the slightest.
And here’s the thing, Joyce said what they believed was bullshit, but Becky gets mad when Joyce said that their authority figures have been bee-essing her. To that Becky says Joyce is going through a stupid phase she outgrows, and Joyce snipes back that that line is what the adults in her life would throw at her when she questioned them.
Like I actually totally forgot about that but that’s Becky getting pissy at Joyce for saying extremely sensible things while processing harsh emotions, both of which Becky has done and is currently doing right this very second.
I think the issue is that if Becky could sum Joyce up in one word, she would probably say that Joyce is cares, or is caring. I think both at Dina’s party and here, that Becky is distressed that she is seeing a side of Joyce that is against what she thought Joyce was. I don’t think Becky is upset that Joyce is turning away from religion; at least I don’t think that is the major component of it. I think she’s upset that Joyce is doing so in a noncaring and callous way.
Okay but being Joyce’s BFF should mean she can step the fuck up to a painful conversation with Joyce for the first time in the series.
Like if we’re gonna be so coddling of Becky’s emotions because she walked in at the wrong time and how Joyce needs to do XYZ to do the right thing and be a good friend, we can extend that courtesy to Joyce.
OH, I absolutely agree. Like I said, I don’t really like Becky that much, and I definitely think she would improve by interacting with Joyce, and anyone really, on a deeper level. Becky should give Joyce the benefit of the doubt in this conversation, but take a look at where the two of them are mentally right now. Becky feels hurt BY Joyce, and Joyce doesn’t feel hurt by Becky. That’s why people expect Joyce to do the right thing and be a good friend. I would love for the church and everyone who lied to and hurt Joyce to come forward and apologize and make things right, and they absolutely should do that and more. Its just a lot harder to suggest that sort of thing since it seems way less likely to happen.
In that interaction Becky had also interrupted a convo where Joyce was talking to Dorothy (again about herself) in crisis to shift it to HER crisis and then dismissed Joyce as just throwing a tantrum because she was 5 steps ahead in processing so Joyce can’t be at that stage or is supposed to be better than it. Like… every bad Joyce and Becky interaction seems to occur when Becky barges in and makes it about her. And I DO like Becky. But why would you think someone would give a good answer when you interrupt like that? Joyce and Dorothy were in a quiet area and stopped talking whenever Beckt ran up. Why would you be mad at an answer just because it’s one you don’t like or weren’t expecting?
Hell, Becky was giving Dina everything she could for her birthday but Joyce was on her way to giving what was directly asked- give up magical thinking.
Flip side, as much as Joyce isn’t my fav I’m tired of the dichotomy of people simultaneously treating her like a training project while also holding her to a higher standard or acting like they should have control over some of her decisions. Becky doesn’t get the right to determine if someone’s concerns are legitimate or not based on her partial hearing over and over due to her own insertions. Either stay or try, but you don’t get to keep being angry and dismissive over what you’re inserting yourself into and then stomp away. I mean, you can, but it’s an even worse temper tantrum imo.
“I’m tired of the dichotomy of people simultaneously treating her like a training project while also holding her to a higher standard or acting like they should have control over some of her decisions”
I’m quoting this part with italics because the comments section lacks glittering neon and fireworks to properly convey a take of such pure, unadulterated spitting hot fire.
At the time Becky entered, Dorothy and Joyce were both being silent. Their previous conversation definitely affected how Joyce answered, but Becky had no way of knowing what that conversation was about, or that they were talking about anything. I don’t blame Joyce for the way she handled the conversation. I’m just tired of seeing people say that Becky threw Joyce’s doubts in her face, when there was more to it.
Does Becky have an issue with barging in and making everything about her? absolutely. Does she the right to act like a human being when she walks in on a silent room, asks a serious question, and gets a dismissive answer? yes. Should Becky try to stay and talk things out more when she’s upset? Definitely. Will I ever learn to stop talking in questions? Find out next time on Dragon Ball Z.
Willis drew very good head and eye movements in that convo which to me hinted at them only becoming quiet when Becky approached and looking for a time to resume. Similarly, if I approached two people hanging out how Joyce and Dorothy were my first question would be if I’m interrupting something… not just slamming down inbetween. It doesn’t matter WHAT the conversation was about, it doesnt matter if it was quiet in that moment. That whole interaction was a bit rude even for a college party. I don’t think Becky threw her doubts in her face because it wasn’t an attack imo it was a dismissal. Which is still not great… but is different. My take is if the room is quiet, there’s a reason and being loud might not be the best answer. But that’s always Becky’s answer because it’d hard for her to just sit with things… for obvious understandable reasons.
Her, apparently, not being able to read the room is a fair point., and that is one of the things that I dislike about Becky. She has in other instances proven that she can be quite socially adept, but often takes the bull in a china shop approach to interactions anyway. In any case, the point I was trying to make was that I feel that if the topic of Joyce doubting religion were introduced to Becky in a different way, she probably would’ve been more likely to hear Joyce out on the matter.
I mean, I’m still worried about the ultimate collateral being Dina who told Joyce to give up magical thinking and originally grabbed Becky saying she could save this one. Dina also admits emotions are complicated, but Becky obviously hasn’t been processing her partners stance either despite Dina being very vocal about it. I feel like Dina accepts where Becky is but much like Becky thought athiest Joyce was a stage, Dina thinks religious Becky is a stage she can just patiently wait out. I hope that’s not where this is going because that will be sad for all parties.
By the logic of lying, Becky was also lying about being a lesbian… people aren’t always ready to share their own personal epiphanies. Particularly if it isn’t fully processed or feels unsafe to do so.
And when was a good time to bring her shift anyways when Becky has been in a her survival mode this whole time? When she was kidnapped? When Becky first was admitted to school? When celebrating her mom’s death? All of those take time to process and it can totally feel unsafe to throw your closest bonds into the mix. Joycr has even said she feels like Becky has enough on her plate.
Becky keeps making religion a key identity trait and tagging Joyce in it rather than letting her speak for herself. Becky blasted Joyces comfort zone out of the water on her way to coming out. Becky is just starting to get support but without Joyce NONE of her successes would currently be happening. Joyce lied to her parents for her, Joyce got her a place to stay hidden for a bit, Joyce threw parts of her religion away, Joyce chased down her gun toting dad, Joyce punched her father in the face. Joyce might not be a direct victim but she put herself through that for Becky and if Becky is concerned that THIS is what feels like a betrayl… when Joyce betrayed everything she believed for her… then I’m at a total loss.
Feeling like you’re being humored feels garbage and I get Becky’s mood particularly where her mom is concerned… but she also ignored Joyce when she tried to at least stick to more relevant info from past beliefs to insist her dead mother was eating cake…so humoring was already obvious due to the shift in tune. Becky hasn’t had the ears to hear, is loud, and is cherry picking events as evidence of God. Joyce hasn’t had the bandwidth to have this conversation, is quieter, and has taken everything on herself to keep her friend going.
But both kids are here now, their is no yelling, they are best friends. I really believe they can work all this out to at least a place of understanding even if it is uncomfortable for awhile… im more worried about the collateral of Becky and Dina over this since Dina once hissed that “this one could be saved.”
There were several months during the timeskip when Joyce could have talked about her loss of faith with Becky. It didn’t need to be during a particular crisis.
Of course, for narrative reasons it couldn’t be over the timeskip and it’s perfectly understandable for Joyce not to want to provoke an unpleasant conflict with Becky. But putting off that conflict she led almost inevitably to a worse one, since Becky was eventually going to find out and if she does so accidentally it’s always going to be a worse time.
You’re assuming Joyce was solid on this during the time skip or that she still felt it was an okay time due to trauma on either party’s side. If you’d be comfortable opening up more emotional worms after that semester, power to you but I’d have just wanted time to sit with everything. Heck, a year might not have been enough time to be comfortable with certain revelations that happened.
That’s true, though it’s only been a few days since the timeskip and she seems fairly solid now, without any big new motivations to change.
As I said, it’s perfectly understandable to want to put it off, but the longer she puts it off the harder it gets, since she winds up hiding it and lying about it, and the more likely Becky will find out on her own, which is almost certain to be worse than telling her would be. That’s a hard thing to do and a hard lesson to learn – I’m still not good at it, despite having screwed it up more than once and having a lot longer than Joyce has been alive to learn it.
I mean, that’s kind of putting a time limit on how long Joyce is allowed to grapple with the existentialist nightmare that there is no God before it inconveniencing someone else is her fault. Like, today is the first time she’s gotten vengeful as an atheist, how does she even find the words to explain it to someone else whose opinion of her changing is something she fears (as in not Joe), let alone Becky?
We don’t even know when during the timeskip Joyce decided to change her label because when we first learn Joyce is an atheist she’s super uncomfortable with even saying the word out loud.
Reality puts time limits on it. Like any other big secret you keep. You have the right to do it, but when it comes out unintentionally it’s likely to do more damage than if you were up front about it. And the longer you wait, the more likely that is and the worse it’s likely to be, especially when they find out you’ve been pretending and lying about it.
Well I mean yeah but that’s because it came out unintentionally as a result of Becky’s wild over-possessive behaviour.
Like, your scenario is entirely focused on how it would affect Becky as it comes out as opposed to, like, Joyce herself processing the most massive shift in her worldview she could possibly have. It’s putting the responsibility of coming to terms with her feelings on Joyce so she doesn’t inconvenience someone else.
Granted, I think a more salient point is that Joyce was never going to talk about it any time soon. She was making some progress with Joe and could work up to it if the days didn’t last four months, but in DoA time it had to come out like this.
Is it possible Becky hasn’t really thought about the toxic effects of living in the closet? Her closet door lay in splinters and smoking fragments at the first opportunity, which is great, but not everyone can make that jump.
She was pretty clear earlier that she wouldn’t be cool with Joyce having faith problems. When was Joyce gonna say to herself; “OK, today seems like a good day to risk one of my most important friendships”
Yeah, Becky insisted aggressively her dead mother is eating cake… what else would have been acceptable? It wasn’t about Joyce… heck we already know Joyce keeps a lot quiet because she felt Becky had enough on her plate.
This has to be the hardest blow, for Becky; everything she knew/thought she knew, about Joyce, is all gone. When she realized that Joyce would never reciprocate her romantic feelings, it hurt but she accepted it, because Joyce was still, “Fundie-Joyce”. Even with all of the crap with her dad, there was still, “Fundie-Joyce”. And now, in the worst possible way, Becky knows that, “Fundie-Joyce”, no longer exists. The one thing she could rely on, when things got weird and awkward. Now, this is not going to break her, because Becky still has Dina, but things are going to be a bit bumpy, for a while, as now, in Becky’s mind, she has nobody to relate to.
Hope she remembers that Joyce has been a reliable friend. She would fight a crazy weightlifter to rescue her, put her own college situation at risk to put a roof over her head. Set her own feelings aside so she can think of her mom eating cake in heaven.
I mean, she wasn’t fundie Joyce to Becky when came out because Becky said she was afraid Joyce would change but was so glad she had. Joyce did toss everything out for her, got her out of their old congregation early with the help of her dad, took her to new types of church, stopped going to church… Becky clearly hadn’t been playing connect the dots for awhile if she thought Joyce was anyxhere near her fundie self anymore particularly with having an athiest friend, using proper pronouns and writing erotica. I think someone above nailed it on the head where they said Joyce was the most caring friend. She tried to hurt no one and you could count on that caring for your life. Now she’s saying things that hurt, things she needs to bleed off for self care… and it really doesn’t feel good that some of those are at odds with Becky or that everything isn’t phrased nicely anymore. Becky thinks the care is gone rather than focused differently and as that is her core idea of Joyce, that’s the shift.
Your point about Dina though… I think that is going to be the true collateral because Dina is the one who told Joyce to renounced her magical thinking. Im worried this will either be sat on or become a doubling down which Becky won’t handle well. They are on of my favorite couples so I hope not.
Because obviously if somebody else changes I should be able to punish them with how I am themset about how they changed and don’t hold exactly the same beliefs as myself.
Becky is a 101 course in how to be a horrible person and bad friend. Wants everyone to understand her and accept her position is completely unaccepting of and non-understanding of others.
But hey isn’t that right up the alley of the religious in general. I guess we shouldn’t expect a religious character to be written with some form of boundaries as to whether or not they can control other people’s beliefs. Practically baked into the equation.
But hey isn’t that right up the alley of the religious in general. I guess we shouldn’t expect a religious character to be written with some form of boundaries as to whether or not they can control other people’s beliefs. Practically baked into the equation.
What a rude over-generalized thing to say. You must be so embarrassed.
Not particularly I have absolutely no shit to give about how upset you are about how upset your invisible friend or religious structure is about my position on belief in it.
If you have a problem with me not sharing your belief you can bring it up with me. But if you want to take a offense to me not sharing a belief with you that’s a you problem.
In fact a deeply problematic personal flaw, that is spread intentionally and celebrated within religious structures.
No one said anything about having a problem with you not sharing their belief. It’s the part about “religious people not having boundaries” that provoked the response.
Some certainly don’t. Others do. That’s more of a people thing than a religious thing, though some sects encourage it. I’ve met atheists with really shitty boundaries about other people’s beliefs too. They’ve got less systemic power, but they’re not individually any better about it.
Find me a religious person who isn’t religious and you might have a point.
Considering it’s tautological, you don’t.
And please don’t be embarrassed for me if they want to take offense I’d love it for them to do so. And if you want to judge it as a shitty thing to do that’s how you problem too. I don’t give a shit if you think it’s an overgeneralization because I know with my lived experience it’s not.
Maybe you should be embarrassed for the fact that you’re basically trying to enforce other people’s thoughts about different groups not because of the actions of those groups but instead by how you can try to imply they should be embarrassed about their actions or thoughts.
Because that truly is kind of pathetic. Passive aggressive peer pressuring because you don’t like the fact that somebody doesn’t like a group of people because of the way they act.
Get over your perception of how other people lived experiences cannot reflect badly on large groups of people. Or don’t it’s no skin off my back and I don’t honestly care if you do. You’re allowed to be a crappy passive aggressive bully, you’ll only get a reputation for being such.
Your presentation of that tautology requires the definition of religious to be inherently at odds with and unaccepting of others’ beliefs.
And like, if that’s your definition of what religious means, I guess that’s cool for you? That certainly doesn’t fit with a lot of my lived experience with the religious, and also feels like it’s really focused on, say, Christianity specifically, or just evangelical religions because there are oodles of faiths that approach it from the angle of “I believe this and if you want to too, that’s cool, but I’m not gonna make you.” Sure, there are plenty who fit your description, but they certainly aren’t everyone.
I don’t actually think it’s really that a big a deal to not give af about religious institutions, like of all the things I am concerned about being mean on the internet to existing power that can shape cultures and mass amounts of lives isn’t really a thing I care to have a beef about, but what I will say is that I don’t think it’s productive or helpful to lash out at anyone here, considering no religious person of any walk of life reading Dumbing of Age is someone with the ability to cause the pain that we associate with religious institutions.
It’s okay that you don’t care about faith because neither do I, in that I’m almost totally incapable of getting out of my head and therefore don’t know how to process the idea of actually believing in a God without my parents making it a part of my Sunday, but the religious practitioners you’ll find here aren’t capable of causing the pain that makes them targets of moral judgment, and therefore they aren’t deserving of being talked down to.
I mean – Jacob, Sierra, Radiah all seemed pretty good with boundaries and beliefs. We are just focusing in on two girls who were taught that being pushy and converting is how you save people… so of course they were raised not to respect that kind of boundary. I agree with a lot of other things you said, and this can be common in the worst groups but I can personally attest to remaining unaccosted by my polythiestic husband and my child’s catholic God father despite being athiest… However part of me wonders if the last part is sarcastic in that you do wish some of the better religious characters would be highlighted so we are not just focusing on the negative consequences and what you feel is stereotyping.
Most people, regardless of religon, don’t like being reduced and dismissed by a stranger who paints pictures in negative broad strokes. If you are that openly antagonistic to the vast majority of the world’s population, no wonder people are pushing your boundaries… because you’re not being very respectful of who they are so why should they care about you in return? Boundary pushing is a human issue, religion is just an excuse some use.
I don’t care to search through every tagged Becky strip in the archives, so could someone with better search skills/memory than me let me know: in the strip where Joyce flipped on Becky for accepting evolution because it challenged original sin, was that comment section full of people calling Joyce toxic and an unsafe person for Becky to talk to? Did they say Joyce wanted to shove Becky into a box of her expectations and gaslight her if she tried to step out?
This comment section is exhausting and if my financial situation weren’t what it is, I’d still be on Patreon to avoid it. Why the constant need to not only pick sides, but defend them to the death? Why can’t it be all right for Joyce to be disgusted and enraged with the toxic culture that raised her, and also all right for Becky to be hurt about her friend seemingly mocking all religious beliefs and also lying to her repeatedly when Becky asked what was bothering her? Why can’t Becky be annoyed that she came to Joyce with a problem just to be met with “do whatever, everything’s BS” without that making her unsafe for Joyce to ever even think of broaching the topic of atheism with her?
I don’t get this insistence on forcing a right and a wrong side on every situation involving stupid teenage kids. Especially since Willis doesn’t write like that, unless we’re talking about characters like Mary or Blaine.
Is there a Firefox extension that can hide comment sections? I don’t have the stamina for this.
As someone who’s been pretty big on the “Becky can’t talk about Joyce’s atheism” thing; just because I think Becky was morally wrong and did poorly by her friend in that circumstance doesn’t make her Wrong As A Person and A Fake Friend to Joyce. Much as you’re willing to come at this from why Becky is doing it, my perspective is on how Becky’s actions there in this single instance reflect on her and what that would mean for other, heavier situations, like the one we’re in now. But like, it’s also cool that you want to do that, not a single person here is capable of grasping every single nuance of every single aspect of what every single other person here is trying to talk about.
In what is extremely apropos to a conflict that’s occurring because Becky decided the meaning of Joyce’s words but with entirely sensible reasoning in the ten seconds she had to process them, hundreds of comments are being made using a small pool of words that mean a dozen different things and carry a dozen nuances on their own, and there’s no way to parse through all of that on a slow day where nothing big or exciting is happening, let alone a straight week of an extremely complex situation where a thousand different issues all coalesce into describing an action as right or wrong when that action can have dozens of strips that built up to it, and that’s before we get to the issue of talking about emotionally charged topics that are influenced by personal experience, except hundreds of the commentariat all have their own personal experience influencing the feelings in the words being used that mean one thing to them but mean ten different things to five other people.
Like for me it’s impossible to divorce Dorothy and Becky’s actions towards Joyce, where Joyce crosses them for *long winded reasoning here* and she’s not even given a chance to breathe before she’s being blamed by Dorothy and told to make it right, and my own experiences with getting shouted down on the grounds of “I think you’re wrong, ergo I can treat you however I want until you prove you’re not wrong.” Because of this I’m extremely nitpicky about Joyce’s actions here and want to parse through every single nuance of why what’s happening is happening and why I don’t think Joyce is particularly responsible, but then if I did think Joyce was responsible I’d be a lot less willing to defend her as much as I have, I’d just find this a much more boring story if I thought Joyce was wrong and nothing else.
Years ago I was definitely taking the heavy stuff of this series personally (hi there, Amber breaking up with Danny by emotionally abusing him and applying that to my own fears of becoming an abusive partner, forgetting that A. I am An Actual Person and therefore can check myself and reflect on actions and behaviours I thought beneath me even if having to do so in the first place made me feel lesser about myself, and B. Amber is A Cartoon Character written and drawn by another An Actual Person and thus the feelings he wants to express through Amber matter infinitely more to him than they do me, and C. being A Cartoon Character means Amber can do things and they don’t actually have to apply to me just because I see myself in her) and lashed out at other commenters even though their reactions were influenced by lived experience too. Nowadays I find it really hard to get upset about someone having a take on fiction, within the confines of the fiction itself, but I’m like that because I lived the opposite end so hard I had to break out of it for my own health.
Which is just a long-winded way of saying that your feelings matter and it’s okay to dissociate from situations that cause you stress, but the outpouring of feelings causing that stress matter too, because they’re all getting imprinted onto a series of comics where we have 24 hours to stew over every nuance in a way you really can’t with actual human conversations.
I see this type of comment quite often whenever I start joining in the comment section, and it can be hurtful because it feels like a judgement on how others choose to be invested. So to answer why people answer the way they do – People use the comment section to process their own ish they went through, find/convince others of differing interpretations to get broader understanding and because they see themselves in these characters. People are invested and have differing values and peeves which they apply like they would to others they care about, much like how people talk about what they like and didn’t like development wise in shows. It just goes more indepth here because it’s a strip a day and that means these developments happen over a longer period and lean heavily on subtext and interpretation because there is rarely a tidy bow that completely wraps something up. Generally we get a pin on it and get to see how these things accumulate in other interactions as would be the case in real life.
If it is tiring, you can choose not scroll the comment section rather than going though those steps or abstain from making comments ad that invites further invitation? Unless you were genuinely asking why,, in which case I gave you the rational I tend to see.. You can try to find somethin to block it, but that seems like a lot of work that makes it harder when you might want insights. Or are you compelled to read them and that’s why you need the app so you don’t feel like you have to use your emotional bandwidth?
I rarely scroll the comment section and even rarer go on a comment spree. I love the comment section when it goes over things I had never been exposed to before or teachers me more facets of identity. I learned about gray ace here and that was so valuable. I have recently been invested because it DOES feel certain characters get more passes than others in interactions based on expected personality types and defending the other character doesn’t necessarily absolve the other one of everything, but does bring balance to the conversation… also… the “early” comics had someone being called toxic in im pretty sure every story line (incl Joyce) so you can just count on that happening even if it wasn’t in that particular moment. Willis writes convincing teenagers and its called dumbing of age because they are all messes and making messes of eachother. There’s a reason we rarely see Sierra. Lady is chill.
Feel that. As Werge said, if you go directly to main page you only see comments if you click the button. I find it easier to bypass on a phone because if I keep the top of the page open where comic is I don’t even see it.
Could be this one: Original Sin. (It was in my DOA bookmarks. Really the best explanation as to why creationism is so damn important to fundamentalists.)
I think since ‘Joyce is autobiographical’ has been in the FAQ all along we’ve always made jokes, it just only recently became the case that oh no, Joyce and Walky REALLY ARE autobiographical, the comic ouroboros is nigh!
Much like you don’t have the energy to look through every Becky strip, I don’t have the energy to read through every comment. But in the ones I have read, most people seem to acknowledge that Becky being hurt is perfectly reasonable given the information she has on this specific situation? It’s just that they think, in the grand scheme of things, Becky has been kind of toxic and more than a bit controlling.
Unless you’re reading through the archives you have to click on the link that says “___ Comments” under the tags in order to see the comments. Directly going to https://www.dumbingofage.com/ whenever you want to check for updates should avoid the comment section entirely.
If I may offer a suggestion, you could start using Newsblur. It keeps track of RSS feeds and it has its own app. You could read DoA there and avoid the comments section that way?
If you look up how to create a user stylesheet, you can do #comment-wrapper { display: none; } on “dumbingofage.com” and that’ll also hide stuff.
This tutorial seems good, and you can use the technique here to do @-moz-document domain(dumbingofage.com) { #comment-wrapper { display: none !important; }}.
Whether you think Joyce needs to apologize here or not, can we all agree she’s doing it in a really shitty way? A vague “I’m REALLY REALLY sorry” doesn’t sound particularly sincere, and staying silent after Becky called her out on only being sorry she was heard definitely doesn’t make her seem any more sincere.
Joyce, in my opinion, doesn’t need to apologize because shes going through her own crisis and trying to deal with it as best she can however an apology can lead to an explanation for what she said which is whats needed here
I don’t give a darn whether you think Joyce needs to apologize here or not, but I think we can we all agree she’s doing it in a really shitty way. A vague “I’m REALLY REALLY sorry” doesn’t sound particularly sincere, and staying silent after Becky called her out on only being sorry she was heard definitely doesn’t make her seem any more sincere.
What is Joyce sorry for right now? Becky is hurt because of something Joyce said and felt (and I worded that very deliberately), but it’s not like those aren’t Joyce’s actual feelings* she is expressing, that this isn’t her truth she feels to be correct as a result of the last six months of her life. What can she say that lets her be true to herself and do right by Becky, if “doing right by Becky” involves stepping back on what she said?
*Joyce’s “actual feelings” in this case being something I am interpreting as “I fucking hate what I was taught to believe.”
Still don’t care. Don’t derail this. Joyce is apologizing in a shitty way. If she’s only sorry that Becky heard her, she needs to own it. If she’s actually sorry for what she said, she needs to own that. Either way, “I’m really really sorry” is a terrible apology.
I think she’s sorry that she hurt Becky, which is not necessarily the same as sorry she heard her. But it’s definitely not the same as sorry for what she said.
I mean, shit apologies are what you give when you’re told to do it rather than being ready to. :/ You’re right it isnt good, but she was pressured and she does feel bad she just isn’t quite sure how to do It so she’s here to start it. And it might end up with a real one now they are taking, so I wouldn’t write off a sincere apology yet due due the messy start. Sometimes talking and understanding let’s you figure out what you’re trying to apologize for. If this goes nowhere, than totally agree it shouldn’t have been done at all and Joyce could have told everyone to give her time… but that would also require Joyce to tell people she cares about to fuck off and that wouldn’t have happened either.
Of course its shitty, theres probably been less than two minutes (if that) between Becky leaving and Dorothy expressing her disappointment that Joyce has had to process everything thats just
She hasn’t had time to sit down and reflect on whats happened
But in my opinion we can cut some slack to the girl that
A. Gave Becky a place to stay
B. Took food out of her own mouth (via the card) to feed Becky
C. Shielded her from others in the wing
D. Stood up to her family
E. Stood up to her church
F. Chased after her after being threatened with a rifle
All the while that Becky was actively making it harder for Joyce to do this but she did, she kept fighting for Becky and will still keep fighting for Becky
Oh god. Can we dump all the performative nonsense “THIS APOLOGY DIDN’T MEET MY CRITERIA FOR SINCERITY” into a river and never be seen again?
Because it’s nonsense.
It’s been ruining internet discourse for the past _decade_ and it hasn’t gotten any better.
I’m wondering if this is the catalyst for Becky changing and actually becoming a good friend to Joyce.
I know shje bangs on about Joyces bestest friend evah but in reality shes not a good friend at all.
Yes shes there for Joyce when big things happen (Joyces sexual assault) but in the little things, the everyday things shes not or its an excuse to be “wacky”
Dorothy and even Joe are better friends for Joyce because they notice Joyce, Joyces grades are slipping and bad eyesight are something Dorothy picked up on and Becky didn’t, Joyce being down so what does Joe do he tries to find out why
Becky on the other hand is all about making it about her, the sitcom lead, the focal point, its been up to now a one-sided friendship so maybe that can change
I am hoping this will lead to Dina pointing it out or something because while I understand where Becky’s coming from, she does treat Joyce as a trophy and can’t deal with the fact that her friend is changing.
Yes, Joyce should have let Becky know of her changes in faith, but really, given how Becky reacts to things, I don’t blame her for keeping it to herself.
She’s still working things through and Becky seems to want Joyce to be the “I know everything about you since we grew up together how dare you change on me despite me changing” – it feels unfair. And very human.
I do really hate that you’re completely right on your analysis of Becky there and that I’ve had friends that were exactly that way. There for the big moments, but absent the rest of the time. Most people criticize others for not being there in times of need, but don’t realize that being there only in times of distress and not being there at any other time is being just as a poor of a friend. I don’t know if it has a name, but I’m gonna call it the “Superman friendship.” They’ll come when you’re in danger, but the moment that subsides, they’re gone.
By the way, when I get in tough interpersonal situations like this I get all tongue-tied and say the dumbest things. Not intentionally hurtful things, just emotionally-constipated, kind of nonsense things. It has cost me a couple friendships which was a price I could not easily pay, so relatable all around.
I have to admit the biggest surprise here is that Becky apparently DIDN’T suspect this. Which means that her over-the-top treatment of her and Joyce’s religion at the beginning of this semester was, in fact, genuine, and was most likely just like her performative conflict with Dorothy – an attempt to reinforce her existing relationships to instill a sense of comfort, that everything else in her life was just as normal.
Which is probably exactly what made this so painful.
I can’t remember now, but… Dina did go to this birthday party for Becky’s mom, right? Did she say anything about it? Because as a strict atheist, I’m sure that Dina definitely would have thought Becky’s gesture to be silly, if understandably sentimental. Maybe that’s why Becky wanted Joyce there.
And I can’t help but wonder… What would Becky do if Joyce’s answer to that last question was “yes”? Because if Becky stays with Dina, this is a question that will undoubtedly rear its head again in the future, and even though I’m sure Dina will be compassionate and accommodating, it can still be a very lonely feeling engaging in an activity or memoriam that means a lot to you, but you know that your partner does not and is only accompanying you for your sake.
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You can mint an ΝFΤ of it and make bank in the
pyramid schemereseller marketPut THAT in your portfolio!
Only .5 ԜEΤH opening bid!
(…dang, on the party bit)
Them Liz apologies ain’t worth much in this market. Kinda like cryptocurrency or NFT’s.
Careful joking about NFTs. Some dweeb might decide to argue that you can’t get the same value by just right-clicking one and saving it.
I mean you can’t. NFTs are a way to own your artistic creation in an expensive and singular indivisible form, as opposed to the endless unmonetizable copies of a right click image file
Like I can’t run a ponzi scheme tricking people into buying just JPEGs, obviously.
I wouldn’t say you own the piece itself (after all, that can be easily duplicated and shared around), rather you own a token associated with the piece.
It’s like, if you bought a pizza at a restaurant you don’t actually own the pizza; the recipe is out there and anyone can eat it – you instead own the receipt of the pizza. The proof that you bought it.
…
Why not just .. buy a pizza?
Or in this case, buy art? Like a commission or a painting? Everyone can see it, but it DOES belong to you, in some capacity
Legally, the only capacity that maters in the eyes of the law.
yes but only you have the receipt
which means…. something?
Yeah, buying a receipt that says you bought a receipt for an ugly .jpg isn’t actually adding anything you can’t get from just saving the .jpg. There’s no added benefit.
I… think you’re principally buying the right to sue other people if they use the jpg?
… whoops, nope, looks like I don’t understand NFTs. Seems like you’re more likely to be the one who gets sued.
Yes, but some very smart not gullible people believe that tying that .jpg to a token adds a ton of benefit that makes it worth a lot of money, and Those people are willing to pay that lot of money to completely legitimate businessmen for it
It does. It makes it a collectible that can be sold for lots of money.
Which in many ways isn’t all that different from any collectible market. It’s artificial scarcity being monetized.
Or they could just collect Yu-Gi-Oh! cards. I saw a $500 Dark Magician at a nerd shop last week, and the only thing special about it was a neat holographic texture.
Tax The Rich
See, that’s where these tech bros are behind the curve. I remember sites “blocking” right-click with JavaScript almost 20 years ago.
You can screen shot a blocked right-click image.
Or disable JavaScript. There’s plenty of ways to get around it, that’s as “sEcUrE” as locking a gate with no fence.
I probably should have said “”bLoCkInG””…
Yeah. It’s actually already on your computer; that’s how you’re seeing it. The trick is mostly keeping it from getting deleted when the cache times out.
Or go into the sources of the page in your browser, if you can figure out how to navigate the developer tools.
NFTs take the idea of thanking your Kickstarter/Ko-fi backers and say “that’s too enviromentally friendly! Let’s fix it.”
Oof. Yeah, forgot about the party. Good luck digging out of this hole, Joyce.
I mean, I don’t think she needs to? She was trying to comfort her best friend and it was 100% not the time to bring up her crisis of faith.
Like, there’s plenty of shit to blame Joyce for, but being considerate to her best friend isn’t one of them.
I agree honestly, Becky didn’t feel the need to accuse Dina or Dorothy of “just humoring” her despite them not believing in heaven either. I think it’s completely fair of Becky to be upset with Joyce for talking about her faith like that and it’s even somewhat fair to say “You’re only sorry because I heard you” but it feels unfair of her to complain about the party now because one way or the other Joyce was trying to do something nice for Becky on a day that was very hard for both of them
Yeah by the looks of it, Joyce for some reason is the only one in Becky’s life who’s somehow not allowed to be an atheist.
I mean for some religious people finding out someone they grew up with is now an atheist is a different experience to just meeting someone who is an atheist.
I’m sure she’ll adjust but its not surprising it was a little jarring for her. Specially given HOW she found out.
Yeah, it definitely seems to be the case that some religious people have a lot more trouble dealing with the fact that someone they grew up with who used to believe like them is now an atheist, than someone they’ve met more recently who’s been an atheist since before they met.
If I recall, it’s because Joyce (who, at that point, had been drugged and very nearly raped, found out that her parents’ marriage was barely holding together, and also learned that her parents only let her attend IU because they believed her to be too brainwashed to ever question the faith, just to name a few points) hadn’t dealt with enough to be permitted to question that faith, as per Rebecca’s standards. Also, her lesbian girlfriend wanted lesbian Rebecca to have lesbian premarital lesbian hanky-panky with lesbian her, because LESBIAN, and she wanted Joyce to focus on that. So naturally, she’s going to be a petulant brat when she finds out that Joyce isn’t going to be the same person no matter what.
Dina isn’t a lesbian.
True, but roughly 75% of Rebecca’s personality at the time was LESBIAN in screaming neon lights a mile high, and I sincerely believe that her brain was inserting the word into any space into which it could be crammed at that moment. I should have put that part in quotes, because it was meant as what I imagined her train of thought was during that scene.
Her name’s Becky, dude, why do you keep calling her Rebecca?
It’s to punish her for calling Dorothy “Dotty”.
Is that it? I thought it was to punish us for enjoying Becky’s quirks.
Punishing a fictional character you don’t control is somewhat difficult. Not, I suppose, impossible, but I miss the point of doing so.
That’s just weird.
That’s a lot of pettiness to direct at… *checks notes* a fictional character.
Indeed, but we get in trouble when we direct pettiness at real people. Venting it towards fictional characters is much safer.
Some people use Lesbian as a more of an adjective or a verb than a noun, where it’s referring to something you do rather than something you are
Dina isn’t a lesbian, but she can be said to be in a lesbian relationship
I’ve seen “sapphic” often preferred for that example, as it clarifies the relationship as wlw without, say, bi-erasing one of the partners in it.
@King Daniel
Yeah, that’s technically the safer bet, and it’s what I’d use for someone I didn’t know well.
Buuuut as a bi/pan person myself, I can’t say it bothers me too much as long as I can tell from context the person isn’t trying to ignore bi people exist? Like, I call myself GAAAAY all the time even though I’m bi LOL
True and that’s fair as well, but I have noticed this comment section to have an unfortunate tendency from time to time of “forgetting” that bi/pan characters are, in fact, bi/pan (see all the comments to that effect when Ruth hooked up with Jason, or right below me where someone asked “since when” was Dina not a lesbian), so…helps to reaffirm that sometimes.
huh? since when?
Willis has gone on record several times as stating that characters’ sexualities remain consistent between the Walkyverse and Dumbiverse. In the Walkyverse, Dina slept with Mike and was Walky’s girlfriend for a fair while; in the Dumbiverse, she has said herself to be “unconcerned” with the gender of her partner. Hence, she is most likely bi or pan – but not a lesbian.
Since always? Dina has been stated in multiple places to be ace (or ace adjacent). Based on in-comic portayal, I would guess a full estimation of Dina’s preferences to be sex-positive asexual (not sexually attracted to anyone but still interested in sexual pleasure and intimacy and has a sex drive) and bi/panromantic (romantically interested in multiple genders/regardless of gender). Which is not “lesbian”.
I think you may be thinking of the wrong party. Becky is talking about the one they had just last night (comic time).
If I had to take a guess, I think Joyce was Becky’s anchor in Christianity. Sure, she had lots of atheist/agnostic friends, but Joyce, her childhood and current best friend, was (by all appearances) Christian just like her. That probably kept her feeling confident and secure in her religiosity, because she wasn’t alone in it. Finding out that Joyce is actually an atheist now and hearing her trash talk Christianity has to be crushing and isolating, and that’s a good portion of why she’s lashing out as hard as she is.
Becky may be going to lash out. She may be intending to lash out. As of yet she hasn’t done so. She has withdrawn and she has asked a good question. This is very different from lashing out.
I yhink maybe Joyce’s support from a strict and literalist foundation soothed Becky’s residual apprehension that she is transgressing God’s laws.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
Becky’s insecurity does not allow for her friends to step outside the boxes she has created. Dina must not be sexually available. Dotty must not be likeable. Joyce must be her eternal pal in Christ. She’s clinging to those constants, no matter how much the affected people want to move outside them, because it’s all that gives her security.
and she, herself, must always be the wacky clown.
oh, and:
Dina must also, despite her unavailability, be just as (unrequitedly) horny for Becky as Becky is for her.
On top of putting people in these boxes for the sake of her security, she’s THAT finicky about it?
I know she’s been through a VERY tough time, but SURELY there’s a better way for her to cope….
…..OK I can’t think of one right now, but I know there has to be something.
Hey, Jenn? You gonna call Jon here out for calling Dorothy “Dotty”? Or am I the only one who has to properly name everyone all the time?
This name thing seems to be getting oddly personal. Probably best to disengage from it.
Why? People calling her “Dotty” is why I started saying “Rebecca” in the first place, but I’m the only person getting called out over it. That’s bullshit.
@HeWhoAbides yeah because you’re being weird about it. The only other person who ever called her Rebecca was the Toe, and aren’t you the one who said you feel like all the horrible things that happened to her after coming out were retroactively justified because she’s a little obnoxious? It adds up to being fucking weird
Not to mention, calling Dorothy dotty has basis in the comic because Becky does it. Other than the Toe, you’re the only one who’s ever called her Rebecca
Well this has got interesting. We’ve arrived at a nexus of being free to use/make non-standard/nicknames for fictional characters, but also being called out for it as if it were as serious as dead-naming a transperson, chiefly because it is now being used as a reason to call out commentators for maintaining a standard of when they’ll get angry about it but not being alert or engaged enough to respond within a timeframe of our own selection which is inscrutible to all but ourselves. It seems to me that [real|fictional] entities, 1, 2, …, n-1, n, and self should all talk a walk outside and take a few deep breaths.
…Huh?
It’s not that people in Becky’s life aren’t allowed to be atheists.
It’s that they’re not allowed to be apostates.
…. okay, Becky PROBABLY would be a bit more accepting than that, but she’s put up some red “don’t assume I’ll be accepting” flags over the past few months and there’s grounds for a BIT of anxiety there. And for someone like Joyce, a bit of anxiety is…. nope. Just nope. That’s even scarier than OATMEAL.
I don’t think it’s that. It’s that what she heard Joyce saying. What she heard her saying, essentially, is everyone who believes in God is an idiot. From her perspective, her best friend has been mocking her behind her back for believing in God. Had Joyce talked to her about how she was doubting her faith or even told her straight up that she was an atheist, I don’t think Becky would be acting like this.
It also doesn’t help that Joyce has been hiding it from her and she doesn’t know for how long.
I mean, Becky *knows* that Dorothy and Dina don’t believe in God, and that they attended that party because they wanted to support her. That was an honest relationship. She and Joyce commiserated specifically over (what she thought) was their shared faith, with Joyce comforting her with religious messages, and then the next day she walks in on her saying “religious people are so stupid lol they believe in all this heaven nonsense”.
*We* all know that Joyce has been having a crisis of faith and is still figuring out what she believes. What Becky knows is that her best friend has been laughing at her behind her back.
Yeah. Joyce has a justification/reason here, handed to her on a silver platter, but the question is if she’ll use it or not.
It’s hard to say, as emotions are running high.
It also involves letting yourself be vulnerable in a way that’s really scary. Like, I think the whole thing with Liz was Joyce trying to pretend that she’s a Cool Atheist right now because “I don’t believe in what I used to and now I don’t totally know who I am” is a really scary thing to talk about or think about.
Especially with someone who still does believe in those things.
From the context of the entirety of Liz’s visit, it was also spawned by “trying to be cool around my ‘cool’ friend”, until it became uncomfortable and then angry…
Joyce wasn’t laughing at Becky. She was trying to impress Liz by carpet-bombing her old beliefs. And upsetting herself because without her faith, Joyce feels, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
That’s why she was doing it. But what she actually was doing was mocking believers like Becky. We can sympathize with her reasons without pretending it was harmless.
It’s entirely fair to say ‘you’re only sorry because I heard you’. I think it’s exactly why Joyce is sorry.
As she should be.
I don’t think Dorothy or Dina humored her by talking about her mom watching from up in heaven. Joyce did, even though she doesn’t believe that any more.
Becky even sensed something was off, but Joyce deflected her with a scriptural technicality.
I don’t think that’s the same thing- she *knew* how Dina and Dorothy felt. Realizing that your best friend was lying to you about something that important- even though it wasn’t malicious at all- that’s a tough thing to grapple with. And to go from thinking she’d shared something genuine with Joyce to hearing her calling all believers stupid- you’re going to feel like, what else has this person been lying to me about?
To be clear, I don’t think Joyce did anything wrong- not even the venting. It’s a complicated situation that’s going to be tough for both of them to deal with and it’s happening in a way where both their emotions are pretty raw.
No hole to dig out of. The answer is “Yes, because I care about you and it was something that brought you comfort. I didn’t yet feel comfortable sharing this realization with you, and I didn’t want to verbally attack your mom who you obviously care about.”
It is the same as if some random person tells me I’m ‘blessed’. Which frankly I would really rather they didn’t. But I’m not the dick to throw their thanks back in their face by telling them that I’m an atheist.
I get the same feelings when someone throws atheism in people’s faces as when religious nutjobs do it, usually for Christianity, to make whatever it is about them and not the person they are helping.
They’re going to have a deep, hours long heart to heart. Tears will be shed, friendships renewed, the orchestra will swell, and they’ll walk off together to go get some pie.
Meanwhile:
Liz: Eye spy something that begins with…O.
Sarah: Other Jacob. You’ve done that one already.
Liz: I can’t see shit from here, we’re still hugging!
I’m glad you are so optimistic about all this. Also, why would ‘Other Jacob’ be out in the open in Joe’s room?
Oh, right, I forgot that they are in Joe’s room.
In that case, eventually Danny will come home from his date with Sal, to find that Joe has started using the pair as a coat rack.
Other other Jacob. It’s just Joe.
You need a strong apology portfolio to get into the most awkward and embarrassing art schools these days.
Ironically, showing up without a portfolio and not even realizing you need a portfolio is the most awkward and embarrassing of all portfolios. And it won’t get you in.
This is why I got into information technology. Nobody docks you for not showing up with a rack full of network and video gear in tow.
Yeah, I don’t think this conversation would ever have gone WELL but this timing is a lot worse than it could’ve been.
And this is why you don’t keep people you care out of the loop on important changes in your life! Communication is key to relationships!!!
Mmm, with certain exceptions. There’s lots of stuff you can keep from people you care about, for lots of really good reasons.
Oh definitely! I just think this is one of those times Joyce really really REALLY needed to control the narrative and she had that taken away from her. Like she honestly probably couldn’t have talked to Becky as things were but like this is probably worse even if it’s gonna be a catalyst for a radical realignment of their relationship u kno?
This is also where you need to be careful about weighting conversations. Becky entirely shot Joyce down when she began being honest before so none of this is surprising.
Both characters were always going to have this course. Becky was always going to shut Joyce down and Joyce was always going to want to pretend to be what Becky wanted her to be.
There’s actually a real question of if Becky wants to be friends with the real Joyce or if she just wants her fantasy Joyce in her head. Both characters are facing a real rough road out of childhood.
Yup, all of this. 🙁
I mean if you aren’t ready to share something with someone, you aren’t. I can understand why Becky in particular was the one she wasn’t ready to tell the most.
Yeah Becky is a difficult person to be honest with because she’s a bad combinations
A) Incredibly strong willed
B) Incredibly set in her perceptions of Joyce
C) Buried under like 8 layers of irony about things
Like Becky is not an easy person to tell things to, for sure
She tried. Becky shut her down, insisting that it was a “shitty phase” that she didn’t want to hear any more about.
This is correct. However, it’s always (a bit, performative, a schtick) when Rebecca does something shitty, so let’s pretend that part never happened and she’s a blameless victim again /s
Not sure where ur getting the “Becky is blameless here” from my comment but I’m glad ur having fun
He just likes doing that in random places to mock people who don’t think Becky’s the antichrist, ignore him
Probably won’t help, but I’m a pretty big proponent of the “it’s a bit” take on Becky and I take a more nuanced view than that.
Much of her stuff is performative. I think that’s pretty clear from the comic. That doesn’t make it okay. It’s perfectly fine to critique her behavior, even as long as you keep in mind that it is performative. If you take it too seriously though, it’s easy to mistake the performative bits as her real motivations and I think that’s a misread of the character.
We see that a lot in recent discussions: If Becky is really and truly motivated by ousting rivals to her status and Joyce’s One Best Christian Friend, then her reasons for going to seek out Joyce and Liz look pretty bad. If that’s a performative bit, then we can speculate on different motives for wanting to see them.
I’m not sure I follow. It’s a bit because if it’s not then Becky’s doing something morally wrong?
Like I don’t think the way she treated Dorothy for years was performative. I don’t think it’s performative now in the sense that I think Dorothy talking to her when getting Joyce’s glasses made Becky twig onto the idea of being her friend, meaning she has to Becky it up super hard to prove to Dorothy that she is cool, affable, smart and knowing in the hopes of securing enough Friendship Points that she can be sad in front of Dorothy and she won’t stop liking her.
If you don’t think it’s a bit, I don’t know what to say. If it isn’t, then it makes sense to trash Becky for what she says, since you think she’s serious about it.
It also makes sense to complain about the bit as a bit – it’s overdone, it’s obnoxious even if she isn’t serious about, etc. It being a bit doesn’t make her immune from criticism.
But, if it is a bit – for example her feud with Dorothy over being Joyce’s Best Friend and now by extension, her need to keep her position as Joyce’s Christian Best Friend, then you can’t assume that what she says as part of the bit is her real motivation. Thus, if that part is a bit, then she didn’t necessarily go charging up to look for Joyce to drive off her rival, even if she said that’s what she was doing.
That’s the sense in which it being performative can be used to defend her. Not that it makes her blameless for what she does as part of the bit, but that we can’t use the performative bit as insight into her real motivations.
So what are we defining as the bit then? The over the top goofball attitude or the perceived motivations like “hates Dorothy” and “the only Cool Christian Friend Joyce is allowed to have”?
Like with Liz for example I don’t think Becky thinks she has to be the objectively ranked Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend, but I think that’s her way of expressing her possessiveness of Joyce for the number of reasons I think she’s possessive of her and in particular wants Joyce to remain her Joyce.
If you are talking about Dina’s party, Joyce may see that as trying to broach the topic in a sincere way, but Becky absolutely didn’t. What Becky saw, mostly incorrectly I believe, was Joyce acting petulantly when she asked for advice. I think if Joyce actually sat down with Becky at any point and said, “Becky, I’m having doubts about believing in God,” it would have gone differently.
I think a friend should understand that sometimes you just are not ready to share something. Joyce has not even settled in her new world view herself.
Communication is important, but if someone’s not yet ready to tell their very religious friend since childhood that they no longer believe in that religion, they aren’t required to tell that friend just yet. Especially when that friend shut her down and told her it was just a phase when she came close to telling her the previous time. I’ve suspected for some time now that regardless of how she found out, Becky probably wasn’t going to react well to learning that Joyce is now an atheist.
That’s true. You’re not required.
But that comes along with making it even more difficult when and if they find out before you’re ready to tell them.
I’m taking a moment from the pretending these are real people to appreciate DW and say thanks for actually getting down to it, rather than cutting away to a different plotline.
This is the Main Event right now, and it’s good to treat it as such.
Yes, Becky. Sometimes friends humor each other. It’s known.
Bile is an important humor, right?
Please do not cover your friends in bile. It’s impolite.
But then they’ll get the Miasma
Unless they’re into that.
…. I mean I don’t KNOW that anyone’s into that, but I know humanity. Someone’s into that.
What else are you supposed to do when you feel it rising from your guilty past?
Now now, how about they share in a little melancholy? That’s a humor too!
I don’t think she was humoring Becky. Those sentiments were genuine. Just because you don’t personally believe something doesn’t mean you can’t be sincere in celebrating someone else’s belief.
Also I don’t think Joyce has truly come to terms with whether she’s atheist or not. We haven’t really seen acceptance of that yet. She just came back from break like “I guess I’m an atheist now.” without her really exploring that rational. Half heartedly roasting Christianity with Liz doesn’t prove much to me. Frankly I’m not sure what Joyce believes anymore.
That’s fair.
Trying to comfort someone in pain strikes me as a very Christian act, in the best possible sense of the word. So I’d say Joyce was doing the right thing at the birthday party. That really wasn’t the time to bring up her crisis of faith. Granted, I’m not sure when the best time would be…
The best time to tell Becky y’know besides probably anytime during the time skip would have to be one of the several times Becky asked her upfront if something was wrong or brought of the topic of religion in anyway. Like here.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/gaggle/
Or here.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/watchin/
Becky has known something was bothering Joyce this whole time.
There’s a difference between finding out whats bothering someone (see how Joe handles it with Joyce) and how Becky handles it, especially in the last link where it sounds like Becky is demanding answers from Joyce
Actually no, that just sounds like how friends who’ve known each other for a long time talk to each other when they’re worried something’s wrong
absolutely not on the second one. when a religious person is grieving is not a good time to out your new irreligion/atheism to them. There are more delicate ways to have handled that conversation, and Joyce wasn’t prepared for them at all.
But Becky put her in a situation with no correct options there. Fucking great way to put your friend through an inquisition. Ya, she was humoring Becky. Becky made that the option for her to choose to be comforting.
I’m not gonna argue anniversary of Becky’s, mother’s, death is really bad timing to talk about maybe not believing in heaven with her, but the fact is there was never a good time for this revelation. Joyce’s only options were bad timing or worse timing and every time she avoided the issue the timing only got worse until it couldn’t get any worse.
So trying to justify this with excuses about timing or it not being appropriate for the moment is what created this situation and I guarantee Becky feels worse now than she would if Joyce had talked to her any moment before now.
For the record, it wasn’t the anniversary of her death it was her last birthday before her attempt
Also, Joyce probably doesn’t want Becky to try to keep her religious. Just thinking back to who and when I talked about this sort of thing to.
Anyways, please don’t say “I’m not going to argue about X” and then accuse me of “justifying with excuses about timing.” Either its up for discussion or it’s not.
When a grieving friend says, “It comforts me that my dead mother is in heaven,” you do not then tell them you think they’re wrong. What created this situation, is the author contrived a way for Becky to overhear Joyce venting, to create drama.
Trying to comfort someone in pain is an act of someone who has sympathy. I’m not sure what you mean by “very Christian act”, but it rubs me the wrong way. Christians are more or less sympathetic than other people.
As far as what the religion literally says, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury the dead.”
Hardly an exclusively or originally christian thing though
I wonder if the back-and-forth with Liz made Joyce think “is this what atheists are really like behind closed doors”, and if that made her a little less sure of her stance again.
Yeah, I strongly doubt Joyce knows what Joyce believes in. A long while back, people were bringing up nihilism and it fits as a phase she’s going through better than atheism does.
And you’re allowed to feel hurt when you find out a friend lied to you to humor you
I’m not arguing otherwise. That’s as far as we need to take that line of thought.
There’s a difference between humoring someone and outright lying about your beliefs/intentions. The difference in this case being for example how the atheists in Becky’s life like Dorothy or Dina went to her mom’s party to talk about her and to be there for Becky but never said anything about her being in heaven. Joyce did. In fact when questioned, she doubled down instead of coming clean to Becky.
This might be a poor comparison I admit, but the comparison I’d jump to in this case would be like ending a relationship. It might be messy but at least if you’re honest that the spark’s just not there, there’s a chance you can salvage the relationship and be friends with your ex later. Or you can go lie about your feelings, maybe start cheating on your partner, and make things infinitely worse.
At this point it feels like splitting hairs and I regret saying anything.
Me, forever and ever
If nothing else, she was respecting your beliefs, Becky. You don’t go to a funeral, wake, or anything like it and then telling someone “it doesn’t matter because there is no god.”
I don’t know how this is going to impact their friendship but it won’t be fun for anyone involved.
This, I think, gets to the heart of why, while I sympathize with both Joyce and Becky here, my emotions seem to be leaning towards Becky.
Becky’d have to be a saint to not feel lied to here. Her best friend had just the day before this used her (apparent) faith to assure Becky that her mother– who she still desperately misses– is out there somewhere in a better place. And now Becky finds out she was faking the whole thing? Like, fuck yeah, she has a right to be pissed. I’m not saying it’d be reasonable to expect Joyce to tell the truth in the situation she was in, but it’s equally unreasonable to expect Becky not to feel betrayed over it.
When my family had the virus, and one of my parents had to be hospitalized, I didn’t find out about it until everybody was safe and sound. They told me they waited to inform me because they didn’t want me to worry. My loved ones could’ve died and it would’ve been the first I even heard they’d been sick. Fat lot of worry that saved me. All it did was make me feel like I couldn’t trust them to tell me anything. It fucked me up for that whole spring.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that while *we* all know that this is something that Joyce has been struggling and grappling with, all that *Becky* knows is that she walked in on her best friend laughing at her. People keep expecting her to act like Joyce’s therapist instead of a real human person and it’s very weird!
Exactly! Remove religion and replace it with anything else and it would hurt just as much! Walking in to hear your friend going “Look at me, I’m a big dumb who likes *Anime, DnD, football, lizards, cooking, crochet, volleyball, old English stories, etc” would hurt just as much. Just because they both went through some trauma doesn’t mean hearing your friend shitting on your wouldn’t SUCK
I get your point, but Becky’s faith is the core of her worldview, one in which she believed her only remaining ally was Joyce, so that’s far more traumatic than criticizing her hobbies
I’ve basically always been an atheist, so at the end of the day I can’t know what having religious beliefs is like. But… I think I disagree?
My number one relationship fear is just that, that my friends think my taste and interests are stupid. Not that they have to actively like the same things as me, I’m not that picky about who I befriend. But as someone who is extremely skittish about sharing my interests for fear of mockery, yeah, walking in on my best friend saying “WOW SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG SURE IS DUMB AND I LITERALLY DON’T GET HOW ANYONE COULD LIKE HIM” would damage our relationship severely. So, for me personally, I think it’s a decent analogy…?
I feel for everyone involved though. It’s a messy situation. :C
Yeah, making fun of ANY core part of someone is deeply hurtful, it’s just the case that for Becky, her faith is one of her bigger parts in my mind. And if you are mocked for something enough, anything can become an insecurity and therefore deeply hurtful to be mocked for.
Religion often tends to be at the center of a believer’s identity in a way similar to their cultural identity. That’s not to say you have to have faith to understand it; anything you identify yourself with that deeply is analogous. It’s just that if you’re looking at interests vs identity, you might be hurt when someone mocks you for your interests, but most people will be more hurt when they feel their identity is under attack.
That was Katerly’s point though. If it would be traumatic if it was about your hobbies, it would be even worse if it was about your core belief system.
At least I think that was Katerly’s point.
Most people weren’t arguing that Becky doesn’t have a right to be upset here, just that she can’t blame Joyce for her new “opinions” on religion because she didn’t present herself as very receptive to that. Mainly bringing up her dismissive attitude at Dina’s birthday party as an example. The consensus seems to be that Becky holds Joyce to some higher standard because faith was the main thing they had in common even though I don’t think Becky has ever expressed that opinion herself.
Becky’s reacted dismissively to Joyce saying some atheistic stuff in the past, which isn’t a great sign for how open she is to this but that stuff was also the sort of petulant nihilism that a lot of atheists would be dismissive of too so it isn’t ironclad evidence
That’s kind of absolutist isn’t it?
Like, Joyce was angry and vengeful after a long string of trauma, and then another one happened afterwards.
And she wasn’t even saying anything really wrong, she was saying the rules she was taught are bullshit so Becky might as well go bang Dina, and Joyce is correct because sexual purity is actually bullshit.
But Becky, seeing Joyce lash out for the first time, treated it like a tantrum she’d get over instead of an outpouring of feelings.
I mean I do tend to agree that Becky would react badly to atheist!Joyce no matter what, I just thought the primary example wasn’t ironclad evidence
I went back and checked and whoops, turns out I remembered Joyce’s venting at the party wrong and while she was angry, she was saying fairly reasonable things. Don’t know how I got turned around about that
The next comic after the one you linked to might have been the one you remember.
I don’t think she’s wrong about anything there either.
O: the f word wasn’t censored!
I think this is Becky’s, like, third F-Bomb? I don’t have the DoA F-Bomb Chart to hand, but I do remember she said it once at the sushi place soon after she first rejoined the plot, and again when she told her dad she was going to be a scientist.
Censoring the f-word was only ever a thing in the Walkyverse, and even then it was uncensored in Shortpacked!
Becky’s said it a few times before in DoA, for that matter.
You forgot the best one
Ah, i love that strip
As much as I like Becky, I gotta be on Joyce’s side on this. While I feel the pain Becky is in right now, there hasnt been a good time for Joyce to bring it up that wouldnt have gotten a poor responce. Joyce was supposed to be Becky’s last christian friend, her last true link to her religious past that she is relying on, so of course she would be upset, she was never going to take this info well, but she is choosing to not listen and assume the worst case scenario (that Joyce has just been humoring her the whole time and was making fun of her), when its clear from the pain that is written on Joyce’s face, that isnt the case.
I really hope Becky lets Joyce tell her the truth about whats going on and actually listens, so their friendship doesn’t end over a misunderstanding. Don’t get me wrong, im not saying Joyce should have been saying those things in the first place (I blame Liz for instigating it though), and she is partly to blame for what she said, but Becky could have stayed to at least ask what was going on.
Yeah, so, my feelings on the matter are that Becky is now making it worse than it is by bringing up the party, in which non-believers WERE present who WERE there just to celebrate someone’s life. Becky knows that, and furthermore, it’s not really a good look for Becky to be bringing it up after, just a few months ago, she was berating Joyce for not taking her crisis of faith into consideration.
She also blew off the first rumblings of Joyce’s crisis of faith at Dina and Sarah’s party, which might have a lot to do with why she wasn’t clued in earlier.
I think Becky needs to take a look at how her faith has warped her sense of reality. She almost torpedo’d a healthy relationship with Dina because she had been taught couple engage in passive-aggressive behavior all her life. She’s now poised to ruin her relationship with Joyce because of her religious brainwashing, as well.
She literally lost both of her parents as a direct result of her religion. Yet she still clings to it. Cults, yo.
“Becky shouldn’t mind her friend calling her stupid behind her back because she is stupid” is a remarkably ugly argument to make, imho.
That’s nowhere near what anyone is saying.
“Becky is brainwashed and needs to magically deprogram herself” isn’t actually better.
Joyce was aiming those “Insults” at herself, not anybody else, Becky just assumes they were at her.
There is absolutely no reason for Becky to know or think that because, unlike us, she has not been privy to the details of Joyce’s internal struggles. As far as she knows or has reason to think, Joyce has been pretending to still be Christian with her while laughing behind her back.
Yeah but just because she thinks it doesn’t make it right.
We know otherwise, we know how much this has been eating away at Joyce, so it’s easier for us to go “Becky, no! She actually fought two separate dads for you!”
I’m gonna agree with Nathan here. We’re privy to a while hell of a lot that Becky isn’t, and while we can draw a line between Liz’s broad comments and Joyce’s self-directed ones, as well as the emotional states of both women at the time, the nuance is a lot less clear to people who walked into the middle of the conversation, especially without any way of realizing that Joyce was deliberately avoiding them.
Why do you have to be on someone’s “side” for this? Becky’s hurt for real and legitimate and understandable reasons, and she’s lashing out. Joyce is going through some difficult shit regarding her faith and how to engage with her friends honestly about it, and hurt her oldest friend without meaning to and feels awful about it.
Acknowledging either character’s pain does not invalidate the other’s pain. They’re not having an argument, there’s no reason to take a side here.
This. Neither of them are in the wrong here. This is a difficult thing for both of them.
I’m not sure there ever would have been a good time for Joyce to tell Becky about her atheism. Based on how she seems to view Joyce as her childhood Christian friend, and how she reacted the previous time when Joyce came close to telling her about her troubles with their religion, shutting her down and telling her it was a phase she needed to grow out of, I’m not convinced Becky would have reacted well to finding out Joyce is an atheist no matter how she found out.
Interesting to see if Joyce will be able to draw the fine line between “sorry for being extremely callous” and “sorry for becoming atheist”, because she’s only truly sorry for one of those things but might end up apologizing for both in her guilt
I’m just waiting for Spencers take
[Cue Spencer spending exactly as much time and energy just talking about the various properties of cotton candy]
I don’t know how to deal with the pressures of this newfound fame.
Pressure doesn’t build character, pressure reveals it
It also helps prevent bubbles in your acrylic crafts.
Pressure is what makes bubble wrap awesome.
Sometimes… you have to figure out the difference… between ‘there’s nothing out there for me’… and ‘there’s nothing out there for ANYONE’
When you are hurt and full of misery,
And buffeted by sheets of sorrow like driving rain
That flies flat in the wind so thickly you feel you’re going to drown,
Then religious acquaintances are allowed to say
“I hope you’re wrong about religion, too
“And living in defiance of my jealous God”,
Because “I will pray for you” is licensed comforting.
But if you say to them “I hope you’re right.”
That’s two-face hypocrisy.
Even if it’s true.
Except that’s not what’s going on here.
Joyce didn’t say “I hope you’re right”. She lied about believing Becky was right. Understandably, since that would have been an awful time to get into her losing faith, but it’s also understandable Becky’s hurt by being lied to – especially in light of the apparent mockery today.
Mind you, I get annoyed by the “I will pray for you” stuff, but it’s so ubiquitous it mostly just fades into the background.
It’s a tricky situation, that is easy to be unprepared for, for the new apostate. Religion tells people a script, and Joyce was out there needing to, on the fly, thread a needle, and just plowed into the safer of two walls.
There’s some advice out there in dealing with things like that, how to be prepared for navigating tricky situations. But mostly what potential apostates run across are other people venting, and answers to questions about science, religion, and epistemology.
IIRC, “Coming Out Atheist”, by Greta Christina, has some good practical advice.
Yeah, I’m not even saying Joyce was wrong in that situation. It would have been a horrible time to shift the conversation to Joyce’s deconversion and Becky likely wouldn’t have let any evasion go easily – which we saw when she jumped on Joyce’s hesitation and was only deflected by standard Joyce Bible quoting tactics.
But that doesn’t change the pain when it does come out the next day.
Ideally she would would have confronted the problem earlier, at a less wrought time and while it still would very likely have been painful and awkward, it would have been less so than it turned. But this isn’t Smarting of Age, as we like to say around here.
It also seems like Joyce has only gotten comfortable enough to start telling people in active ‘may not be Christian anymore’ phrasing since the timeskip, even though things started hitting critical Crisis of Faith mode with the Rich Mullins dream – she’s still freaking out when Sarah calls her an atheist, she’s willing to allude to it to Dorothy when planning the Not-Roomies strip, but I think it’s really only been the last two storylines (the ‘I’m just a monkey!’ talk with Joe and then the Judas one with Liz) where she’s been willing to not just say ‘I may not believe in God anymore’ but ‘I don’t.’ Which means the opportunities to tell Becky were probably right when they got back (especially since she’s almost certainly NOT ready for Hank to know and would want to make sure he can’t.)
Should she have done it then? Probably. But given this was likely Becky’s first big familial anniversary date since Ross’s death (plus the first Mom’s Birthday without her mom,) while I suspect Becky wouldn’t have taken it as badly without the talk last night I still don’t think her mental state would have been great with this on the horizon. This was going to be Drama either way.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/02-look-straight-ahead/attempts/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/02-look-straight-ahead/skeptical/
Becky has been struggling for a while now with Joyce not fitting into the box she wants her in.
Not to mention the whole exchange that starts here and goes on for a few strips:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/miss-2/
I think this lead-up to the party is cutting Becky worse than the party itself.
She was having the cake and eating it too.
“I’m sorry” is the beginning of a conversation here, not the end of it. I am glad that Joyce isn’t beating around the bush, but I am also glad Becky’s airing her grievances. Both of these are needed here.
Yep. You can’t get reconciliation without truth.
Unfortunately it’s isn’t going to be easy, because Joyce hasn’t (as far as I can tell) sorted out her answers to “why don’t you believe?” and “what do you believe?”
Yeah. This conversation will hopefully be a “the only way out is through” deal.
Unfortunately, I think they’ll only have a few minutes before Liz barrels her way through.
Oh yeah, I forgot that was “yesterday”.
Them talking this out is all I wanted and this is… a start. Let’s go, communication?
Bold of you to assume it’s going to go this way.
Hey, they’re exchanging words!
For now.
(Gotta take the small victories where I can.)
whatchu talkin bout, alt?
It’s crazy how much the art style and character proportions have subtly changed over the years.
I think it shows that those steps are the problem
I think it’s symbolic of how much the characters have grown since then.
What?
*snort*
There’s something really appropriate about Jennifer and Asher avatars saying these things.
That’s what I did at my grandma’s funeral. I mean it sucks but that’s kinda the baggage that comes with Atheism.
I wonder if Becky wants to be friends with Joyce, new atheist Joyce or does she only like old, compliant Joyce who was happy being (ironically enough) Beckys straight man
I doubt Becky’s ever considered the question, or the possibility.
I think she should, though this may not be the best time.
I think ultimately she’d be fine being friends with new Joyce (after all she’s
friends withtolerates Dorothy and is dating Dina) but it’s the lies that really hurt.Plus the way she was saying it. She knows Dorothy and Dina are atheists but they’re not obnoxious about it. As opposed to the way she and Liz were talking which, for lack of a better term, was just really douchey about the whole thing.
Wow, this is so bad it didn’t even get a punchline
Yeah, I’m a little disappointed with this strip, just for that reason. Not that the narrative & all that isn’t already impressive, I just miss the little extra oomph of finality/closure/(comic) relief that each comic usually has. Dunno if someone with more comic theory chops has the right words for what I’m saying.
Willis does this a lot. It’s exactly the opposite of why people criticize the MCU.
While the MCU will often immediately break tension with a joke, good story writing lets you inhabit the emotional space of something important. I usually hear it phrased as “letting it breathe”.
That’s basically what Willis is doing. This is heavy stuff, but he doesn’t want you to be distracted from it. You miss how often he does it mostly because there are several thousand strips and he’s probably only done it a few dozen times.
What do you mean?
The second to last panel was left empty, that means it’s hilarious!
Those are just the rules! Can’t argue with that.
That’s it, everyone should just start avoiding stairs altogether. From now on, the comic takes place in a horizontal, featureless area where everyone is happy and drama free and…
…oh no, I did a Shortpacked.
Soggies may rule!
My first thought was also “breakup stairs”.
My second thought was great callback.
Awesome callback
Becky is one of my least favorite characters, but I am baffled at the amount of support *Joyce* is getting over Becky. Becky asking if Joyce was humoring her makes sense. Proud keep bring up Dina and Dorothy being at the party but like… neither of them have ever said people were stupid for believing in god. Joyce said that despite knowing that her *best friend* in Christian, just because she thought Becky was out of earshot? That sucks. I get that there “wasn’t a good time” to bring it up before, but the thing is, there wasn’t a good time presented in events as they passively happened. Joyce should have *made* a time. Joyce could have pulled Becky aside anytime over the past couple of days. Joyce knew she lost her faith sometime during the time skip, so she had days if not months to at least make a phone call. It’s completely wild to me that people are taking Joyce’s side when she literally said that people like Becky were idiots behind Becky’s back.
*people, not “proud”
*is Christian, not “in Christian”
This is a comic strip that’s attractive to people who have exited Christianity–often fundamentalist, cultish Christianity–on bad terms. So you’re going to get a lot of people who identify strongly with Joyce, and people who’d naturally ally with an ex-fundie. Joyce isn’t the main character on a whim, after all; she’s always been autobiographical to an extent, and Willis has defended his depictions of her life with personal experience.
So a lot of people aren’t going to see this objectively. That’s not a bad thing. It’s a great thing. But it’s also a true thing and it’s going to the color the hell out of all the comments.
Ohhh that makes a lot of sense. I’m not religious – my parents are/were Hindu, and it wasn’t super forced/taught to me, so it’s hard to even say I “left” it. I guess in that regard I relate to Dorothy the most.
I knew that Joyce was autobiographical to Willis, but I never considered that she would be basically autobiographical to a lot of the audience too
you gotta admit, if there’s a god, he often makes it challenging to have faith in him
I’m a recovering Catholic for a few decades now, but:
Isn’t that, philosophically, part of many religions’ point? Having belief isn’t supposed to be easy 100% of the time, the path to whatever end isn’t supposed to cleared of all obstruction.
(There are some religions which don’t feature this, but I won’t pretend to know.)
What’s always interested me about that argument is that it seems to be a post-hoc justification for why it is so challenging. I mean, if you read the Bible, back in those times God was showing up and providing evidence all over the place. Blatant miracles are all over the Old Testament and done by Jesus in the Gospels. There are stories of miracles leading to conversion throughout the early church.
Why, if faith is supposed to be a challenge, did God used to provide so much evidence to establish the faith?
Nah, it’s a monotheism thing to have doubt in the existence of God.
Finally the moment of truth has arrived. I think/hope their friendship will survive, but at least for a few days they won’t be able to talk to each other.
I am sure there exists a better word in the lexicon to describe what Joyce was doing.
But yeah.
Very difficult conversation, I’m glad Joyce apologised and we’re getting to the deeper issues but still.
As others have said, Beckys need for everyone to fit in a box has finally hit a breaking point and I fear she might hold onto Joyce being a real dingdong with Liz (which Joyce was), so she doesn’t have to confront the fact that the people around her change and it’s not a bad thing. I also hope Joyce doesn’t completely backslide on her atheism just because the second it became real someone got hurt.
Of course she was humouring you. Doing/saying stuff you don’t believe in to support them is EXACTLY what you do for friends. What do you think Dorothy and Dina were doing there? They didn’t even KNOW your mum, they sure as hell weren’t doing it for HER.
This is veering teeteringly close to “how dare you not believe what I believe”.
Or, alternatively, hear me out: Hurt person who feels lied to by their closest friend for the last couple decades of life and Three’s Companied their way into hearing them mock faith in some rather harsh ways (yes, yes, I know, Joyce was talking about herself, Becky does not remotely have the context needed to understand that) is saying harsh things while lashing out.
Can people please, just for a moment, stop assuming the absolute worst about Becky? It’s… getting really ugly.
Part of the problem these last few days is that we’ve all been using the same words to have like six conversations.
Because Joyce is also a Hurt Person who has been Lied To the last couple of decades, except instead of her friend it was every single institution of authority she was told to believe in. Joyce lashed out at them and Becky got hurt by that, except Becky being hurt by something Joyce said and Joyce hurting Becky are two separate things to me.
And then there’s the other details like Joyce lashing out in a private conversation that Becky intruded on, Joyce lashing out at what she used to believe in and how Becky needs Joyce to be unchanging, Joyce lashing out and Becky only catching the angry outburst and not every single detail we’re privy to in Joyce’s head that makes me a lot more sympathetic to her even if I understand why Becky is so upset.
‘Cause not only have plenty of us been assuming the worst in Joyce, so have Becky and Dorothy, and yeah JBento’s correct that part of what is motivating Becky, what I think is up top really, is that Joyce has stopped believing in what Becky thinks she’s supposed to.
Perhaps, and no doubt has a lot of the strife the last few days in the comments been about how people tend to be having different arguments with each other.
Something that I know I should do (and often fail at) is reserving judgement on characters until after a scene is finished. We know Becky is lashing out. We know Joyce has massive post-religious angst going on that she’s lacked a healthy outlet for. We can talk about those aspects without throwing blame around at characters, especially when its blame that’s probably going to be negated outright in a day or two when the next couple in-universe minutes of this conversation happen.
My point is just that Becky and Joyce aren’t having an argument here where it’s a matter of one side being right and the other being wrong. There’s just no reason to pick a side here, we can give both of them warm, comforting hugs until there actually is a line in the sand here.
Becky and Joyce both have valid feelings, they are acting like actual real human beings having a painful and terrible conversation, but since we’re reading them happen and can go moments and dialogue frozen in time in perpetuity, we can start thinking about things that were this scenario to actually happen, nobody would consider.
‘Cause like for me, Becky can feel things. Becky has an innate human right to get absolutely tilted, but even if I can acknowledge that, I can still acknowledge she (and Dorothy, more so Dorothy) have been making some terrible mistakes that led to this pain she’s feeling.
Becky’s here because she’s wildly over-possessive of Joyce and when told as such thought it was hilarious. Becky walked in on the tail-end of a private conversation without any other context. Becky just stormed off (this part is fine) and then nobody else took a minute to say “Joyce I don’t know what’s going on and we can talk about it” because they don’t have the emotional weight in Joyce Becky has, but all Dorothy could do is Mom it up.
And Becky would be hurt no matter how Joyce phrased herself, because she needs Joyce to believe.
It’s a heated and painful conversation where agonizing seconds get dropped once every 24 hours, and so we’ve got a lot of time to consider every single piece of nuance that goes into the characters’ heads, but if you’re wanting Joyce to Make It Right somehow then every strip of her not doing that feels painful, the way, say, Becky’s complete lack of understanding of Dina’s sexual inclinations is painful, because of course Becky would have no idea how to process Dina being asexual but that still means Becky is going “dang Leslie I dunno if Dina not wanting to have sex with me means we can stay together” and that’s upsetting to read about even with, if not because, of the window I’ve got into her head.
All true!
When Joyce tried to not “lie to her”, as you put it, Becky called it an angry phase that Joyce had to move on from.
Well, no, Joyce was actually totally lashing out in nihilistic anger because at that point she still considered herself a Christian.
But yeah that kind of strikes me as a good indicator to Joyce that she can’t actually talk about this stuff, because even when she was still a Christian she questioned it for the first time and Becky got mad at her.
Turns out I’m actually only going to sleep five hours despite my best efforts so:
Let’s get into Becky in each of these panels.
So one thing that I immediately think about is whether fundamentalists, like, deliberately expose their kids to annoying atheist takes to go “see? The secularists are jerks! Like they say we are!” but as for Becky herself: she doesn’t care about what was said, she cares that Joyce was the one who said it. That strikes me as fairly obvious but I’ve also been pretty stringent that anything Joyce could say would set Becky off, and we’ll get to that.
The second panel just kinda bugs the crap out of me because “you’re sorry you got caught” is one of the most annoying things to say in the universe, but it does help frame how Becky could be processing this: Joyce did A Bad Thing, Joyce kept secrets, Joyce has been lying and Becky has loved Joyce this whole time while Joyce lied to her. And on some level she is right to say “sorry I heard you” because when you get down to it, Joyce is apologizing for what Becky heard, except what I think that means is that Becky thinks Joyce needs to apologize, or has otherwise hurt her, for what she thinks.
And then there’s the third panel, which while I think is on the surface about Becky’s feelings of betrayal, I think Becky is experiencing that betrayal to begin with because she needs Joyce to believe too, because she assigns a lot of importance to Joyce and in particular the Joyce that’s always been around, and that latter Joyce is gone.
I think Becky puts a lot of importance onto Joyce and a lot of importance in her faith, and so far they’ve worked hand in hand, and now Becky just found out Joyce thinks Becky will never see her mom again after she committed suicide, she’s gone forever, and Becky’s last memory of her will be finding her body.
With the “sorry you got caught” bit, there’s likely a question of “How long have you been mocking me behind my back?”
We know she hasn’t been, as we also know it wasn’t really aimed at Becky, but Becky doesn’t know that.
Yeah that too. We know this is a recent development but for all Becky knows, at least in the immediate aftermath and currently rushing emotions, it’s been indefinite.
I think it’s reasonable to conclude that a pair of families who tried to make a public statement by going to Chick-fil-a also probably worked to tear down atheists in private. Like, that’s not a huge thing, but it’s not a small thing either.
No I mean, like, do fundies have Top 10 Atheist Blunders lists? Do they expose their kids to the idea that atheists are, inherently, stupid and wrong people?
Having know some serious fundies in my life, yes they do. And boy howdy was it rough having to socialize with those people.
people in the comments really hate becky huh?
As a people in the comments I can confirm the existence of people in the comments who really hate Becky.
They are currently engaged in bloody warfare with people in the comments who really love Becky.
Fortunately I am a toothless centrist coward, therefore I think Becky is pretty okay I guess but she gets on my nerves sometimes.
Look sometimes, very occasionally, the centrist position is actually the correct one
That’s true for most everything in life.
You know, except politics.
That’s only because there isn’t actually a center in politics.
People in the comments think this is the kind of narrative where you have to take sides because there is one “right” side and one “wrong” side, so they think they have to choose between Becky and Joyce. Joyce is the main character, so she should be on the “right” side, right?
I mean I think Joyce is right and Becky is wrong, like in a “social rules and their existing dynamic” kind of way, but I don’t think the explosive feelings on display are wrong.
Or they argue against one character being painted as completely right and therefore get shoehorned onto the “other character is completely right” side.
When what’s really going on in the comic these days is that characters are being brought into conflicts where no one is completely right or completely wrong. (Other than the kidnapping arc and some of the other parental story threads.)
Yyyyyep. Getting tilted over fictional people and things that don’t matter can be fun, but some people take it way too far (eg, justifying homophobia against Becky because she’s obnoxious). And i guess nicknames are a war crime or something idk
I’m gonna say this arc is really really good in terms of a exploring fundamental issue between Becky and Joyce, both lovely characters who are just trying to find happiness despite their issues. The fact that the problem is outside their control(Joyce being a jerk aside) just adds to the tension of it. My read of Joyce is a person realising she never had faith and then losing everything that required pretending she had faith. This has lead her to a lot of hurt because can she be good if she couldn’t even have faith, Becky being(to Joyce) better because she could.
Whereas Becky is desperate for control because of course she is, everything has changed so suddenly and there’s a safety in figuring someone out and then keeping them in that box. Change is hard, especially for Becky who maybe associates any change effected by her as bad, and that guilt has got to be weighing on her. Much like Joyce saying religion is dumb was self directed I think Beckys anger here might be the same, anger at not just Joyce being a jerk but maybe becoming a jerk because of her. This is of course false but Becky is in a vulnerable space so it’s understandable.
No ones better, no ones worse(except again for Joyce’s jerk moment), just 2 friends struggling. Love this series(and yes I love Joyce and Becky, even when they’re kind of annoying me)
Agreed. It wouldn’t be nearly so effective if they weren’t BOTH deeply sympathetic characters who have been through hell and are reacting in related but distinct ways… which are now hurting each other.
*Grabs popcorn* Man, I enjoy this.
short answer, yes, long answer is a memorial of a person is always worth celebrating as a coping mechanism for everyone involved, and she probably loved and misses her almost as much. You don’t need to believe there is literally someone looking down at you from some cloud above for it to have meaning.
But it’s awkward when you assure the grieving person that she is literally looking down at you from heaven when you don’t believe that anymore.
Even more awkward when the grieving person learns you don’t believe that because they stumble on you pretty brutal mocking the belief and the believers the very next day.
I mean, I think it’s a bit more awkward to go “actually no, I think your mum’s totally gone for good”. That wasn’t a party for Becky’s mum, not really, in the same way that funerals aren’t for the person who’s actually dead. That was a party to help Becky feel better.
Yeah I think this is a good point that hasn’t been yet brought up regarding the whole thing about Joyce lying about Becky’s mom in Heaven.
Joyce thinks Bonnie is gone forever, but she still wanted to celebrate her and she still wanted to do something for Becky.
Absolutely it would be.
But then it gets more awkward again when she finds out the next day that you don’t believe that.
It was a shit situation to be in with no good way out. One that existed because she was hiding her lack of belief from Becky.
I think the important lesson to be taken from this whole shebang is that never talking to people at all avoids awkwardness. It makes it really hard to ask for directions, though, so make sure you have a good map (and can read it).
And THAT is why Joyce should move to Bulmeria! Obviously.
Yes Becky, she was humoring you because she no longer believes. Not believers still can honor the memories of the dead.
This is basically what I expected to happen when we learned Joyce was an atheist. Becky is having a hard time with it because it is specifically Joyce. Because she grew up with Joyce and Joyce used to believe the most fiercely and she liked when that was the case. She liked when Joyce was the strict rulebook and she was the wacky one triggering her neuroses by stretching rules and bending them. Joyce was the moral center that pulled her back from going completely off the rails. When she wanted to listen to her, she would and when she didn’t, oh what fun she would have triggering her neuroses!
Now that has been lost, their dynamic is different and has to change and she doesn’t know if Joyce has just been mocking her TODAY (even if we know it was likely more about herself than about Becky, from Becky’s perspective that is not the first obvious conclusion) or if she has been for a while, how long she has been faking her faith or if she even still likes her. It’s another thing out of her control as well on top of all the other things that happened out of her control and it spirals a lot of things into uncertainty.
Even though some of those things contradict each other like you wouldn’t waste your time pretending to have faith if you hated someone and you wouldn’t be upset that they overheard you if their feelings didn’t actually matter and your care was insincere.
Joyce is having a lot of hard feelings because of trauma so she didn’t handle it the kindest way, following Liz’s lead on how to express it. Hurting people is difficult for her to actually accept though even when it is necessary. It is sometimes just part of being human. Becky was probably going to be hurt no matter what or how it came out ultimately because like how Becky coming out and getting a haircut and going all lesbian all the time was very fast and overwhelming for Joyce back then, this is overwhelming for Becky. It is a big change to her idea of Joyce. And it plays into the insecurity that likely drives her wildly over possessive nature towards Joyce – that she’ll eventually outgrow her or replace her.
And obviously as outsiders, we can easily see that they just need to communicate here and if they do, they’ll find that feelings are just messy and they care a lot about each other and Joyce has been having a hard time coping with her feelings about religion because they are so linked to trauma now. If they do communicate well here, this could turn into a nice moment where Joyce finds some comfort she really needs.
If they fail to communicate well here, this could turn into a giant argument that creates a giant rift that may or may not heal because this is a David Willis comic.
again, all of this.
I am loving this storyline and the resulting comment section drama. Too many things have been simmering under the surface for too long.
the comment section had been pretending to be a friendly, peaceful place for TOO LONG!!!
jk but i do enjoy both the arc and reading the intricate debates it sparked down here.
Oh yeah, if there’s one indisputable fact about this chapter, it’s that it sparked a lot of viewer engagement.
When did this comment section pretend to be friendly peaceful place? It’s not bad by internet standards, but it’s long been pretty toxic. Especially when main characters come into conflict, there’s a very strong tendency for factions to form painting one as a saint and the other as a monster.
It would help if people wouldn’t treat four panels of a multi-week event as the entirety of what we’ll be shown. Between the Danny/Sal thing and now this, I’ve started to realise that having any non-surface level of investment in this comic and sharing those thoughts is A Bad Idea™.
I think discussing stuff in comments is mostly a bad idea (though it’s good for getting others to reference other strips).
However, my brain has been off-kilter anyways and one of the ways that expresses itself is by deciding to share my opinion all over the place.
I don’t see this at all?
I don’t think having Opinions on fiction and, theoretically, going hard on them is toxic. I think it gets toxic when we stop treating each other as actual people, but Becky and Joyce are cartoons.
That really reminded me of a discworld quote.
And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”
“It’s a lot more complicated than that–”
“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes–”
“But they starts with thinking about people as things.”
–Granny Weatherwax and Mightily Oats, from Pratchett’s “Carpe Jugulum”
I’ve never actually read a Discworld novel and I should rectify that (hint: everyone throw your recs) but I really like this quote for my day to day.
I have, unfortunately, seen a lot of opinions on how to approach Discworld and none of them have crossed the threshold of helping me actually start reading it.
I hear “Small Gods” may be the best starting place, though? inb4 50 differing opinions appear.
I think I read up to Sourcerer? Or just the Rincewind ones. I never read Guards, Guards! Even though that’s supposed to be a good jumping on point.
Small Gods is a nice standalone, yeah. The chronological order might not be the best because it definitely leans more wacky and disfocused in the early novels, and mostly gets better as Sir Terry Pratchett wrote more books.
P.S. the fact that he got knighted for his writing and also general awesomeness should tell you everything you need to know, see also: Sir Elton John, Sir Patrick Stewart.
@deathjavu I never heard anyone have anything negative to say about Pratchett as a person. In the latest anniversary of his death, I remember a transfolk posting on Twitter that before coming out they’d gone to a Pratchett book signing, and when he asked them their name they let it slip “it’s X for now” or something along those lines. And Pratchett leaned in, asked them “so what is it going to be” and then he signed the book in a way that the person’s name could be read either way.
Like, read all of them, in order. I’ve recently completed the collection and it’s what I’m doing right now. Coincidentally, I’m on Small Gods, which considering the current place of DoA, lol.
If you want another very good DW quote, and possibly a motto, one of my favourites is:
“Them as can do has to do for them as can’t. And someone has to speak up for them as has no voices.”
Small Gods is a good standalone talking about theology, goodness, and belief in really interesting ways.
Mort, Wyrd Sisters, and Guards Guards are all good entry points as the books kicking off three of the biggest subseries, and are around the point Pratchett really started solidifying what he was going to do with the setting. Of them, the City Watch are probably my absolute favorites so I’d recommend Guards Guards, but Wyrd Sisters has some excellent Shakespeare jokes and I do dearly love the witches, and Mort starts the Death series which has some of Pratchett at his finest. Though so do the Witches and City Watch series, so… (Note: Technically, Granny Weatherwax first appears in Equal Rites, so you could argue the Witch books start there, but she’s more of a proto-Weatherwax and Wyrd Sisters is what really introduces Lancre, the exploration of Discworld witches, and the themes there.)
That said, depending on how you count my first Discworld book was either Wee Free Men (which I only realized was a Discworld book after getting into the adult series) or either Reaper Man or Monstrous Regiment or Witches Abroad (I got them all at the same time and can’t remember which was first), and I then proceeded to read the rest piecemeal and out of order – not how most people recommend starting the series, but definitely worked to hook me in the end. Honestly I’d take the reading guides as ‘here’s how we get you hooked, and THEN once you’re invested you should go back and read the rest in either something resembling order or Complete Library Availability Anarchy.’ Either approach is valid there. Look at the summaries and see what grabs you, the only ones I’d say absolutely SHOULDN’T be started with are Night Watch (very much the culmination of the Ankh-Morpork and Watch stories, requiring you to have that investment already, and also the most unveiledly angry of the series in a ‘I love and am disappointed in humanity in equal measure’ way,) Raising Steam and The Shepherd’s Crown (as the last two, and very much written knowing they could well be the last ones.) Is it jarring to go from Going Postal to a way earlier book? Sure! But you can still do it, just expect that once you go back you’re watching the author evolve into someone who could eventually write Going Postal.
@thejeff: nyeh i was deliberately misreading Alex’s comment for shits and giggles.
I meant that I was tired of Joyce keeping her atheism a secret in-comic, but I won’t deny the comments have been interesting.
Oh god i forgot Bonnie’s birthday was right before this
This feels like an inversion of the Walkyverse scene where Walky was angry at Joyce for believing Dina was in hell. Come to think of that, they never did circle arounnd back to that, did they? I guess they just agreed to disagree on whether Dina is burning in hell?
Walky’s own mortem experiences (during which he met Dina) probably put that to rest off-panel, if I had to take a guess.
Dina herself argued that it was actually an extremely logical and reasonable event with Ruth’s ghost, and that’s hilarious. I get the feeling that if Heaven was real this Dina would do the same.
Walkyverse Dina is still my Dina, to be honest.
So, I’m seeing a lot of comments saying this reaction is proof that Becky cannot handle Joyce being Atheist?
And that’s not the issue at all?
The problem is that Joyce has been lying to Becky’s face about a core part of her identity for Becky doesn’t know how long, allowed Becky to connect with her via that identity over a deeply emotional and personal topic, and was then caught shit-talking people who actually have that identity (which includes Becky) behind Becky’s back.
Like, how twisted do you have to be not to think that is a betrayal?
Well we already know Becky can’t handle Joyce being negative about their faith, because the one time Joyce got actually mad at it in Becky’s presence, that Becky should go fuck Dina because the rules are all bullshit and that includes sexual purity, Becky treated it like a tantrum and that Joyce had no cause to think the way she did.
Otherwise my reading of “Becky needs Joyce to be a Christian” is more inference on their existing dynamic and the importance Becky places on Joyce in her life as opposed to anything directly stated in the text.
Do you think Becky saw that as Joyce taking the conversation seriously? She opened with “do whatever.” When I hear that, I feel more like the person saying it just doesn’t care about what I asked rather than them saying its ok and I should do what I want. And later in that same comic Joyce dismisses Becky again by suggesting that she doesn’t care if Becky heard her or not. To Becky, that conversation was not Joyce voicing legitimate concerns. That was Joyce going through a fit that Becky had probably gone through a thousand times at that point. This is coming from someone that honestly can’t believe they are defending Becky of all characters.
Yeah, I kind of regret bringing that up a few days ago. Re-reading it, it sounds more like Joyce is drawing from a dark, nihilistic place than the crisis of faith it stemmed from.
It’s too late so no one’s going to read this, but that’s what I meant when i said Joyce was being an annoying nihilist the other day. There was no real reason to take it as anything more serious than when a teenager first hears about Nietzsche in a YouTube video or something
*Reads it anyway, HA!*
The difference is, we had the context of Joyce’s crisis to understand where it came from. Becky didn’t at that point.
I think both can be true.
Because Joyce was being highly negative, except she was being highly negative in the face of repeated trauma and was primarily criticizing the bullshit puritanism that Becky is tying herself in knots with to avoid Dina tying her in the fun kind of knots.
I think in a vacuum it’s totally fine to read it as “Becky thinks Joyce is being insincere”, but what gets me is that this is the first time in Joyce’s life she has actually, legitimately gotten angry at her upbringing in any aspect, and Becky won’t hear her oldest, dearest friend out even for a second.
Because Becky has sure as hell rejected parts of her upbringing, she’s turned away from any part of it that inconveniences her in the slightest.
And here’s the thing, Joyce said what they believed was bullshit, but Becky gets mad when Joyce said that their authority figures have been bee-essing her. To that Becky says Joyce is going through a stupid phase she outgrows, and Joyce snipes back that that line is what the adults in her life would throw at her when she questioned them.
Like I actually totally forgot about that but that’s Becky getting pissy at Joyce for saying extremely sensible things while processing harsh emotions, both of which Becky has done and is currently doing right this very second.
I think the issue is that if Becky could sum Joyce up in one word, she would probably say that Joyce is cares, or is caring. I think both at Dina’s party and here, that Becky is distressed that she is seeing a side of Joyce that is against what she thought Joyce was. I don’t think Becky is upset that Joyce is turning away from religion; at least I don’t think that is the major component of it. I think she’s upset that Joyce is doing so in a noncaring and callous way.
Okay but being Joyce’s BFF should mean she can step the fuck up to a painful conversation with Joyce for the first time in the series.
Like if we’re gonna be so coddling of Becky’s emotions because she walked in at the wrong time and how Joyce needs to do XYZ to do the right thing and be a good friend, we can extend that courtesy to Joyce.
OH, I absolutely agree. Like I said, I don’t really like Becky that much, and I definitely think she would improve by interacting with Joyce, and anyone really, on a deeper level. Becky should give Joyce the benefit of the doubt in this conversation, but take a look at where the two of them are mentally right now. Becky feels hurt BY Joyce, and Joyce doesn’t feel hurt by Becky. That’s why people expect Joyce to do the right thing and be a good friend. I would love for the church and everyone who lied to and hurt Joyce to come forward and apologize and make things right, and they absolutely should do that and more. Its just a lot harder to suggest that sort of thing since it seems way less likely to happen.
In that interaction Becky had also interrupted a convo where Joyce was talking to Dorothy (again about herself) in crisis to shift it to HER crisis and then dismissed Joyce as just throwing a tantrum because she was 5 steps ahead in processing so Joyce can’t be at that stage or is supposed to be better than it. Like… every bad Joyce and Becky interaction seems to occur when Becky barges in and makes it about her. And I DO like Becky. But why would you think someone would give a good answer when you interrupt like that? Joyce and Dorothy were in a quiet area and stopped talking whenever Beckt ran up. Why would you be mad at an answer just because it’s one you don’t like or weren’t expecting?
Hell, Becky was giving Dina everything she could for her birthday but Joyce was on her way to giving what was directly asked- give up magical thinking.
Flip side, as much as Joyce isn’t my fav I’m tired of the dichotomy of people simultaneously treating her like a training project while also holding her to a higher standard or acting like they should have control over some of her decisions. Becky doesn’t get the right to determine if someone’s concerns are legitimate or not based on her partial hearing over and over due to her own insertions. Either stay or try, but you don’t get to keep being angry and dismissive over what you’re inserting yourself into and then stomp away. I mean, you can, but it’s an even worse temper tantrum imo.
“I’m tired of the dichotomy of people simultaneously treating her like a training project while also holding her to a higher standard or acting like they should have control over some of her decisions”
I’m quoting this part with italics because the comments section lacks glittering neon and fireworks to properly convey a take of such pure, unadulterated spitting hot fire.
At the time Becky entered, Dorothy and Joyce were both being silent. Their previous conversation definitely affected how Joyce answered, but Becky had no way of knowing what that conversation was about, or that they were talking about anything. I don’t blame Joyce for the way she handled the conversation. I’m just tired of seeing people say that Becky threw Joyce’s doubts in her face, when there was more to it.
Does Becky have an issue with barging in and making everything about her? absolutely. Does she the right to act like a human being when she walks in on a silent room, asks a serious question, and gets a dismissive answer? yes. Should Becky try to stay and talk things out more when she’s upset? Definitely. Will I ever learn to stop talking in questions? Find out next time on Dragon Ball Z.
Willis drew very good head and eye movements in that convo which to me hinted at them only becoming quiet when Becky approached and looking for a time to resume. Similarly, if I approached two people hanging out how Joyce and Dorothy were my first question would be if I’m interrupting something… not just slamming down inbetween. It doesn’t matter WHAT the conversation was about, it doesnt matter if it was quiet in that moment. That whole interaction was a bit rude even for a college party. I don’t think Becky threw her doubts in her face because it wasn’t an attack imo it was a dismissal. Which is still not great… but is different. My take is if the room is quiet, there’s a reason and being loud might not be the best answer. But that’s always Becky’s answer because it’d hard for her to just sit with things… for obvious understandable reasons.
Her, apparently, not being able to read the room is a fair point., and that is one of the things that I dislike about Becky. She has in other instances proven that she can be quite socially adept, but often takes the bull in a china shop approach to interactions anyway. In any case, the point I was trying to make was that I feel that if the topic of Joyce doubting religion were introduced to Becky in a different way, she probably would’ve been more likely to hear Joyce out on the matter.
I mean, I’m still worried about the ultimate collateral being Dina who told Joyce to give up magical thinking and originally grabbed Becky saying she could save this one. Dina also admits emotions are complicated, but Becky obviously hasn’t been processing her partners stance either despite Dina being very vocal about it. I feel like Dina accepts where Becky is but much like Becky thought athiest Joyce was a stage, Dina thinks religious Becky is a stage she can just patiently wait out. I hope that’s not where this is going because that will be sad for all parties.
By the logic of lying, Becky was also lying about being a lesbian… people aren’t always ready to share their own personal epiphanies. Particularly if it isn’t fully processed or feels unsafe to do so.
And when was a good time to bring her shift anyways when Becky has been in a her survival mode this whole time? When she was kidnapped? When Becky first was admitted to school? When celebrating her mom’s death? All of those take time to process and it can totally feel unsafe to throw your closest bonds into the mix. Joycr has even said she feels like Becky has enough on her plate.
Becky keeps making religion a key identity trait and tagging Joyce in it rather than letting her speak for herself. Becky blasted Joyces comfort zone out of the water on her way to coming out. Becky is just starting to get support but without Joyce NONE of her successes would currently be happening. Joyce lied to her parents for her, Joyce got her a place to stay hidden for a bit, Joyce threw parts of her religion away, Joyce chased down her gun toting dad, Joyce punched her father in the face. Joyce might not be a direct victim but she put herself through that for Becky and if Becky is concerned that THIS is what feels like a betrayl… when Joyce betrayed everything she believed for her… then I’m at a total loss.
Feeling like you’re being humored feels garbage and I get Becky’s mood particularly where her mom is concerned… but she also ignored Joyce when she tried to at least stick to more relevant info from past beliefs to insist her dead mother was eating cake…so humoring was already obvious due to the shift in tune. Becky hasn’t had the ears to hear, is loud, and is cherry picking events as evidence of God. Joyce hasn’t had the bandwidth to have this conversation, is quieter, and has taken everything on herself to keep her friend going.
But both kids are here now, their is no yelling, they are best friends. I really believe they can work all this out to at least a place of understanding even if it is uncomfortable for awhile… im more worried about the collateral of Becky and Dina over this since Dina once hissed that “this one could be saved.”
There were several months during the timeskip when Joyce could have talked about her loss of faith with Becky. It didn’t need to be during a particular crisis.
Of course, for narrative reasons it couldn’t be over the timeskip and it’s perfectly understandable for Joyce not to want to provoke an unpleasant conflict with Becky. But putting off that conflict she led almost inevitably to a worse one, since Becky was eventually going to find out and if she does so accidentally it’s always going to be a worse time.
You’re assuming Joyce was solid on this during the time skip or that she still felt it was an okay time due to trauma on either party’s side. If you’d be comfortable opening up more emotional worms after that semester, power to you but I’d have just wanted time to sit with everything. Heck, a year might not have been enough time to be comfortable with certain revelations that happened.
That’s true, though it’s only been a few days since the timeskip and she seems fairly solid now, without any big new motivations to change.
As I said, it’s perfectly understandable to want to put it off, but the longer she puts it off the harder it gets, since she winds up hiding it and lying about it, and the more likely Becky will find out on her own, which is almost certain to be worse than telling her would be. That’s a hard thing to do and a hard lesson to learn – I’m still not good at it, despite having screwed it up more than once and having a lot longer than Joyce has been alive to learn it.
I mean, that’s kind of putting a time limit on how long Joyce is allowed to grapple with the existentialist nightmare that there is no God before it inconveniencing someone else is her fault. Like, today is the first time she’s gotten vengeful as an atheist, how does she even find the words to explain it to someone else whose opinion of her changing is something she fears (as in not Joe), let alone Becky?
We don’t even know when during the timeskip Joyce decided to change her label because when we first learn Joyce is an atheist she’s super uncomfortable with even saying the word out loud.
Reality puts time limits on it. Like any other big secret you keep. You have the right to do it, but when it comes out unintentionally it’s likely to do more damage than if you were up front about it. And the longer you wait, the more likely that is and the worse it’s likely to be, especially when they find out you’ve been pretending and lying about it.
And that sucks, but it’s going to happen.
Well I mean yeah but that’s because it came out unintentionally as a result of Becky’s wild over-possessive behaviour.
Like, your scenario is entirely focused on how it would affect Becky as it comes out as opposed to, like, Joyce herself processing the most massive shift in her worldview she could possibly have. It’s putting the responsibility of coming to terms with her feelings on Joyce so she doesn’t inconvenience someone else.
Granted, I think a more salient point is that Joyce was never going to talk about it any time soon. She was making some progress with Joe and could work up to it if the days didn’t last four months, but in DoA time it had to come out like this.
Both are true. Both are serious issues, which will need to be resolved at some point.
Is it possible Becky hasn’t really thought about the toxic effects of living in the closet? Her closet door lay in splinters and smoking fragments at the first opportunity, which is great, but not everyone can make that jump.
She was pretty clear earlier that she wouldn’t be cool with Joyce having faith problems. When was Joyce gonna say to herself; “OK, today seems like a good day to risk one of my most important friendships”
As opposed to what, Becky? Telling you your mother is dust, and you’re an idiot for believing in fairy tales?
She was keeping her mouth shut and being supportive. That’s what friends do.
Yeah, Becky insisted aggressively her dead mother is eating cake… what else would have been acceptable? It wasn’t about Joyce… heck we already know Joyce keeps a lot quiet because she felt Becky had enough on her plate.
This has to be the hardest blow, for Becky; everything she knew/thought she knew, about Joyce, is all gone. When she realized that Joyce would never reciprocate her romantic feelings, it hurt but she accepted it, because Joyce was still, “Fundie-Joyce”. Even with all of the crap with her dad, there was still, “Fundie-Joyce”. And now, in the worst possible way, Becky knows that, “Fundie-Joyce”, no longer exists. The one thing she could rely on, when things got weird and awkward. Now, this is not going to break her, because Becky still has Dina, but things are going to be a bit bumpy, for a while, as now, in Becky’s mind, she has nobody to relate to.
Hope she remembers that Joyce has been a reliable friend. She would fight a crazy weightlifter to rescue her, put her own college situation at risk to put a roof over her head. Set her own feelings aside so she can think of her mom eating cake in heaven.
But she’s chaaaaanged. And not in the good way, that validates Becky’s own changes without threatening her neatly boxed worldview!
I mean, she wasn’t fundie Joyce to Becky when came out because Becky said she was afraid Joyce would change but was so glad she had. Joyce did toss everything out for her, got her out of their old congregation early with the help of her dad, took her to new types of church, stopped going to church… Becky clearly hadn’t been playing connect the dots for awhile if she thought Joyce was anyxhere near her fundie self anymore particularly with having an athiest friend, using proper pronouns and writing erotica. I think someone above nailed it on the head where they said Joyce was the most caring friend. She tried to hurt no one and you could count on that caring for your life. Now she’s saying things that hurt, things she needs to bleed off for self care… and it really doesn’t feel good that some of those are at odds with Becky or that everything isn’t phrased nicely anymore. Becky thinks the care is gone rather than focused differently and as that is her core idea of Joyce, that’s the shift.
Your point about Dina though… I think that is going to be the true collateral because Dina is the one who told Joyce to renounced her magical thinking. Im worried this will either be sat on or become a doubling down which Becky won’t handle well. They are on of my favorite couples so I hope not.
Ugh Becky.
Because obviously if somebody else changes I should be able to punish them with how I am themset about how they changed and don’t hold exactly the same beliefs as myself.
Becky is a 101 course in how to be a horrible person and bad friend. Wants everyone to understand her and accept her position is completely unaccepting of and non-understanding of others.
But hey isn’t that right up the alley of the religious in general. I guess we shouldn’t expect a religious character to be written with some form of boundaries as to whether or not they can control other people’s beliefs. Practically baked into the equation.
But hey isn’t that right up the alley of the religious in general. I guess we shouldn’t expect a religious character to be written with some form of boundaries as to whether or not they can control other people’s beliefs. Practically baked into the equation.
What a rude over-generalized thing to say. You must be so embarrassed.
Not particularly I have absolutely no shit to give about how upset you are about how upset your invisible friend or religious structure is about my position on belief in it.
If you have a problem with me not sharing your belief you can bring it up with me. But if you want to take a offense to me not sharing a belief with you that’s a you problem.
In fact a deeply problematic personal flaw, that is spread intentionally and celebrated within religious structures.
No one said anything about having a problem with you not sharing their belief. It’s the part about “religious people not having boundaries” that provoked the response.
Some certainly don’t. Others do. That’s more of a people thing than a religious thing, though some sects encourage it. I’ve met atheists with really shitty boundaries about other people’s beliefs too. They’ve got less systemic power, but they’re not individually any better about it.
If you can’t see why generalizing eighty-five percent of the earth’s population like you just did is shitty, I’ll go ahead and be embarrassed for you.
Find me a religious person who isn’t religious and you might have a point.
Considering it’s tautological, you don’t.
And please don’t be embarrassed for me if they want to take offense I’d love it for them to do so. And if you want to judge it as a shitty thing to do that’s how you problem too. I don’t give a shit if you think it’s an overgeneralization because I know with my lived experience it’s not.
Maybe you should be embarrassed for the fact that you’re basically trying to enforce other people’s thoughts about different groups not because of the actions of those groups but instead by how you can try to imply they should be embarrassed about their actions or thoughts.
Because that truly is kind of pathetic. Passive aggressive peer pressuring because you don’t like the fact that somebody doesn’t like a group of people because of the way they act.
Get over your perception of how other people lived experiences cannot reflect badly on large groups of people. Or don’t it’s no skin off my back and I don’t honestly care if you do. You’re allowed to be a crappy passive aggressive bully, you’ll only get a reputation for being such.
Your presentation of that tautology requires the definition of religious to be inherently at odds with and unaccepting of others’ beliefs.
And like, if that’s your definition of what religious means, I guess that’s cool for you? That certainly doesn’t fit with a lot of my lived experience with the religious, and also feels like it’s really focused on, say, Christianity specifically, or just evangelical religions because there are oodles of faiths that approach it from the angle of “I believe this and if you want to too, that’s cool, but I’m not gonna make you.” Sure, there are plenty who fit your description, but they certainly aren’t everyone.
Okay, brain genius.
I see Liz has entered the chat.
Dumbing of Age gets so meta that its newest cast member now writes in the comments section.
I don’t actually think it’s really that a big a deal to not give af about religious institutions, like of all the things I am concerned about being mean on the internet to existing power that can shape cultures and mass amounts of lives isn’t really a thing I care to have a beef about, but what I will say is that I don’t think it’s productive or helpful to lash out at anyone here, considering no religious person of any walk of life reading Dumbing of Age is someone with the ability to cause the pain that we associate with religious institutions.
It’s okay that you don’t care about faith because neither do I, in that I’m almost totally incapable of getting out of my head and therefore don’t know how to process the idea of actually believing in a God without my parents making it a part of my Sunday, but the religious practitioners you’ll find here aren’t capable of causing the pain that makes them targets of moral judgment, and therefore they aren’t deserving of being talked down to.
I mean – Jacob, Sierra, Radiah all seemed pretty good with boundaries and beliefs. We are just focusing in on two girls who were taught that being pushy and converting is how you save people… so of course they were raised not to respect that kind of boundary. I agree with a lot of other things you said, and this can be common in the worst groups but I can personally attest to remaining unaccosted by my polythiestic husband and my child’s catholic God father despite being athiest… However part of me wonders if the last part is sarcastic in that you do wish some of the better religious characters would be highlighted so we are not just focusing on the negative consequences and what you feel is stereotyping.
Most people, regardless of religon, don’t like being reduced and dismissed by a stranger who paints pictures in negative broad strokes. If you are that openly antagonistic to the vast majority of the world’s population, no wonder people are pushing your boundaries… because you’re not being very respectful of who they are so why should they care about you in return? Boundary pushing is a human issue, religion is just an excuse some use.
Okay this is 1000% taking this fictional 18 year old too seriously in like, 7 different ways including mass insulting a real life group .-.
I don’t care to search through every tagged Becky strip in the archives, so could someone with better search skills/memory than me let me know: in the strip where Joyce flipped on Becky for accepting evolution because it challenged original sin, was that comment section full of people calling Joyce toxic and an unsafe person for Becky to talk to? Did they say Joyce wanted to shove Becky into a box of her expectations and gaslight her if she tried to step out?
This comment section is exhausting and if my financial situation weren’t what it is, I’d still be on Patreon to avoid it. Why the constant need to not only pick sides, but defend them to the death? Why can’t it be all right for Joyce to be disgusted and enraged with the toxic culture that raised her, and also all right for Becky to be hurt about her friend seemingly mocking all religious beliefs and also lying to her repeatedly when Becky asked what was bothering her? Why can’t Becky be annoyed that she came to Joyce with a problem just to be met with “do whatever, everything’s BS” without that making her unsafe for Joyce to ever even think of broaching the topic of atheism with her?
I don’t get this insistence on forcing a right and a wrong side on every situation involving stupid teenage kids. Especially since Willis doesn’t write like that, unless we’re talking about characters like Mary or Blaine.
Is there a Firefox extension that can hide comment sections? I don’t have the stamina for this.
Have you tried not clicking the link that says “Comments,” and not scrolling down in older strips? That works for me when I don’t want to see them
As someone who’s been pretty big on the “Becky can’t talk about Joyce’s atheism” thing; just because I think Becky was morally wrong and did poorly by her friend in that circumstance doesn’t make her Wrong As A Person and A Fake Friend to Joyce. Much as you’re willing to come at this from why Becky is doing it, my perspective is on how Becky’s actions there in this single instance reflect on her and what that would mean for other, heavier situations, like the one we’re in now. But like, it’s also cool that you want to do that, not a single person here is capable of grasping every single nuance of every single aspect of what every single other person here is trying to talk about.
In what is extremely apropos to a conflict that’s occurring because Becky decided the meaning of Joyce’s words but with entirely sensible reasoning in the ten seconds she had to process them, hundreds of comments are being made using a small pool of words that mean a dozen different things and carry a dozen nuances on their own, and there’s no way to parse through all of that on a slow day where nothing big or exciting is happening, let alone a straight week of an extremely complex situation where a thousand different issues all coalesce into describing an action as right or wrong when that action can have dozens of strips that built up to it, and that’s before we get to the issue of talking about emotionally charged topics that are influenced by personal experience, except hundreds of the commentariat all have their own personal experience influencing the feelings in the words being used that mean one thing to them but mean ten different things to five other people.
Like for me it’s impossible to divorce Dorothy and Becky’s actions towards Joyce, where Joyce crosses them for *long winded reasoning here* and she’s not even given a chance to breathe before she’s being blamed by Dorothy and told to make it right, and my own experiences with getting shouted down on the grounds of “I think you’re wrong, ergo I can treat you however I want until you prove you’re not wrong.” Because of this I’m extremely nitpicky about Joyce’s actions here and want to parse through every single nuance of why what’s happening is happening and why I don’t think Joyce is particularly responsible, but then if I did think Joyce was responsible I’d be a lot less willing to defend her as much as I have, I’d just find this a much more boring story if I thought Joyce was wrong and nothing else.
Years ago I was definitely taking the heavy stuff of this series personally (hi there, Amber breaking up with Danny by emotionally abusing him and applying that to my own fears of becoming an abusive partner, forgetting that A. I am An Actual Person and therefore can check myself and reflect on actions and behaviours I thought beneath me even if having to do so in the first place made me feel lesser about myself, and B. Amber is A Cartoon Character written and drawn by another An Actual Person and thus the feelings he wants to express through Amber matter infinitely more to him than they do me, and C. being A Cartoon Character means Amber can do things and they don’t actually have to apply to me just because I see myself in her) and lashed out at other commenters even though their reactions were influenced by lived experience too. Nowadays I find it really hard to get upset about someone having a take on fiction, within the confines of the fiction itself, but I’m like that because I lived the opposite end so hard I had to break out of it for my own health.
Which is just a long-winded way of saying that your feelings matter and it’s okay to dissociate from situations that cause you stress, but the outpouring of feelings causing that stress matter too, because they’re all getting imprinted onto a series of comics where we have 24 hours to stew over every nuance in a way you really can’t with actual human conversations.
I swear to God I’m not trying to make all of these so long I just have a lot to say.
No its all good, keep going because I’m finding your take on this interesting.
I see this type of comment quite often whenever I start joining in the comment section, and it can be hurtful because it feels like a judgement on how others choose to be invested. So to answer why people answer the way they do – People use the comment section to process their own ish they went through, find/convince others of differing interpretations to get broader understanding and because they see themselves in these characters. People are invested and have differing values and peeves which they apply like they would to others they care about, much like how people talk about what they like and didn’t like development wise in shows. It just goes more indepth here because it’s a strip a day and that means these developments happen over a longer period and lean heavily on subtext and interpretation because there is rarely a tidy bow that completely wraps something up. Generally we get a pin on it and get to see how these things accumulate in other interactions as would be the case in real life.
If it is tiring, you can choose not scroll the comment section rather than going though those steps or abstain from making comments ad that invites further invitation? Unless you were genuinely asking why,, in which case I gave you the rational I tend to see.. You can try to find somethin to block it, but that seems like a lot of work that makes it harder when you might want insights. Or are you compelled to read them and that’s why you need the app so you don’t feel like you have to use your emotional bandwidth?
I rarely scroll the comment section and even rarer go on a comment spree. I love the comment section when it goes over things I had never been exposed to before or teachers me more facets of identity. I learned about gray ace here and that was so valuable. I have recently been invested because it DOES feel certain characters get more passes than others in interactions based on expected personality types and defending the other character doesn’t necessarily absolve the other one of everything, but does bring balance to the conversation… also… the “early” comics had someone being called toxic in im pretty sure every story line (incl Joyce) so you can just count on that happening even if it wasn’t in that particular moment. Willis writes convincing teenagers and its called dumbing of age because they are all messes and making messes of eachother. There’s a reason we rarely see Sierra. Lady is chill.
Or are you compelled to read them and that’s why you need the app so you don’t feel like you have to use your emotional bandwidth?
It is that, yeah.
Feel that. As Werge said, if you go directly to main page you only see comments if you click the button. I find it easier to bypass on a phone because if I keep the top of the page open where comic is I don’t even see it.
Could be this one: Original Sin. (It was in my DOA bookmarks. Really the best explanation as to why creationism is so damn important to fundamentalists.)
Granted, I only skimmed, but that comment section was remarkably civil.
Also, someone predicted Joyce’s comic strip back in 2015. Huh.
I think since ‘Joyce is autobiographical’ has been in the FAQ all along we’ve always made jokes, it just only recently became the case that oh no, Joyce and Walky REALLY ARE autobiographical, the comic ouroboros is nigh!
Much like you don’t have the energy to look through every Becky strip, I don’t have the energy to read through every comment. But in the ones I have read, most people seem to acknowledge that Becky being hurt is perfectly reasonable given the information she has on this specific situation? It’s just that they think, in the grand scheme of things, Becky has been kind of toxic and more than a bit controlling.
Unless you’re reading through the archives you have to click on the link that says “___ Comments” under the tags in order to see the comments. Directly going to https://www.dumbingofage.com/ whenever you want to check for updates should avoid the comment section entirely.
If I may offer a suggestion, you could start using Newsblur. It keeps track of RSS feeds and it has its own app. You could read DoA there and avoid the comments section that way?
Thanks.
If you look up how to create a user stylesheet, you can do
#comment-wrapper { display: none; }on “dumbingofage.com” and that’ll also hide stuff.This tutorial seems good, and you can use the technique here to do
@-moz-document domain(dumbingofage.com) { #comment-wrapper { display: none !important; }}.Thank you!
Whether you think Joyce needs to apologize here or not, can we all agree she’s doing it in a really shitty way? A vague “I’m REALLY REALLY sorry” doesn’t sound particularly sincere, and staying silent after Becky called her out on only being sorry she was heard definitely doesn’t make her seem any more sincere.
Joyce, in my opinion, doesn’t need to apologize because shes going through her own crisis and trying to deal with it as best she can however an apology can lead to an explanation for what she said which is whats needed here
Okay, let me rephrase:
I don’t give a darn whether you think Joyce needs to apologize here or not, but I think we can we all agree she’s doing it in a really shitty way. A vague “I’m REALLY REALLY sorry” doesn’t sound particularly sincere, and staying silent after Becky called her out on only being sorry she was heard definitely doesn’t make her seem any more sincere.
Well, isn’t that the point?
What is Joyce sorry for right now? Becky is hurt because of something Joyce said and felt (and I worded that very deliberately), but it’s not like those aren’t Joyce’s actual feelings* she is expressing, that this isn’t her truth she feels to be correct as a result of the last six months of her life. What can she say that lets her be true to herself and do right by Becky, if “doing right by Becky” involves stepping back on what she said?
*Joyce’s “actual feelings” in this case being something I am interpreting as “I fucking hate what I was taught to believe.”
Don’t care. Apologize properly or not at all. That’s my entire point right now, so don’t go off on another long ass tangent I don’t care about.
This is a really ironic thing to say in a comment thread about an apology for poor behaviour.
Still don’t care. Don’t derail this. Joyce is apologizing in a shitty way. If she’s only sorry that Becky heard her, she needs to own it. If she’s actually sorry for what she said, she needs to own that. Either way, “I’m really really sorry” is a terrible apology.
“I only want to talk about how Joyce is not meeting my standard for a Proper Apology, and not any of the reasons why she might (not) be.”
OK.
I think she’s sorry that she hurt Becky, which is not necessarily the same as sorry she heard her. But it’s definitely not the same as sorry for what she said.
I mean, shit apologies are what you give when you’re told to do it rather than being ready to. :/ You’re right it isnt good, but she was pressured and she does feel bad she just isn’t quite sure how to do It so she’s here to start it. And it might end up with a real one now they are taking, so I wouldn’t write off a sincere apology yet due due the messy start. Sometimes talking and understanding let’s you figure out what you’re trying to apologize for. If this goes nowhere, than totally agree it shouldn’t have been done at all and Joyce could have told everyone to give her time… but that would also require Joyce to tell people she cares about to fuck off and that wouldn’t have happened either.
Of course its shitty, theres probably been less than two minutes (if that) between Becky leaving and Dorothy expressing her disappointment that Joyce has had to process everything thats just
She hasn’t had time to sit down and reflect on whats happened
But in my opinion we can cut some slack to the girl that
A. Gave Becky a place to stay
B. Took food out of her own mouth (via the card) to feed Becky
C. Shielded her from others in the wing
D. Stood up to her family
E. Stood up to her church
F. Chased after her after being threatened with a rifle
All the while that Becky was actively making it harder for Joyce to do this but she did, she kept fighting for Becky and will still keep fighting for Becky
Oh god. Can we dump all the performative nonsense “THIS APOLOGY DIDN’T MEET MY CRITERIA FOR SINCERITY” into a river and never be seen again?
Because it’s nonsense.
It’s been ruining internet discourse for the past _decade_ and it hasn’t gotten any better.
Only if we want people giving completely bullshit apologies on the advice of their PR hacks to be absolved.
The only way we can really dump the “this apology didn’t meet my criteria for sincerity” nonsense is if people stop making insincere apologies.
I’m wondering if this is the catalyst for Becky changing and actually becoming a good friend to Joyce.
I know shje bangs on about Joyces bestest friend evah but in reality shes not a good friend at all.
Yes shes there for Joyce when big things happen (Joyces sexual assault) but in the little things, the everyday things shes not or its an excuse to be “wacky”
Dorothy and even Joe are better friends for Joyce because they notice Joyce, Joyces grades are slipping and bad eyesight are something Dorothy picked up on and Becky didn’t, Joyce being down so what does Joe do he tries to find out why
Becky on the other hand is all about making it about her, the sitcom lead, the focal point, its been up to now a one-sided friendship so maybe that can change
It’s possible, but someone has to point it out to Becky first and I don’t think Joyce will be that person.
In that case it has to be Dina because Becky won’t listen to anyone else
I am hoping this will lead to Dina pointing it out or something because while I understand where Becky’s coming from, she does treat Joyce as a trophy and can’t deal with the fact that her friend is changing.
Yes, Joyce should have let Becky know of her changes in faith, but really, given how Becky reacts to things, I don’t blame her for keeping it to herself.
She’s still working things through and Becky seems to want Joyce to be the “I know everything about you since we grew up together how dare you change on me despite me changing” – it feels unfair. And very human.
Which is why it’s so interesting.
I do really hate that you’re completely right on your analysis of Becky there and that I’ve had friends that were exactly that way. There for the big moments, but absent the rest of the time. Most people criticize others for not being there in times of need, but don’t realize that being there only in times of distress and not being there at any other time is being just as a poor of a friend. I don’t know if it has a name, but I’m gonna call it the “Superman friendship.” They’ll come when you’re in danger, but the moment that subsides, they’re gone.
The comic has invasive anxiety/ADHD thoughts and they’re us.
When you think about it critically, we’re basically the mind goblins of fictional characters.
I mean, considering our current mental health crisis overall. not even sure that’s a joke rather than the damn Willis truth.
By the way, when I get in tough interpersonal situations like this I get all tongue-tied and say the dumbest things. Not intentionally hurtful things, just emotionally-constipated, kind of nonsense things. It has cost me a couple friendships which was a price I could not easily pay, so relatable all around.
Ah, yes. I call that my word vomit stage.
Fuckin’ Apology Porfolio sounds like a great band name.
Dumbing of Age Book 11: What Would I Even Do With That? Put It In A Fuckin’ Apology Portfolio?
My next Civ 6 band name, in fact.
yep. she was.
I have to admit the biggest surprise here is that Becky apparently DIDN’T suspect this. Which means that her over-the-top treatment of her and Joyce’s religion at the beginning of this semester was, in fact, genuine, and was most likely just like her performative conflict with Dorothy – an attempt to reinforce her existing relationships to instill a sense of comfort, that everything else in her life was just as normal.
Which is probably exactly what made this so painful.
I can’t remember now, but… Dina did go to this birthday party for Becky’s mom, right? Did she say anything about it? Because as a strict atheist, I’m sure that Dina definitely would have thought Becky’s gesture to be silly, if understandably sentimental. Maybe that’s why Becky wanted Joyce there.
And I can’t help but wonder… What would Becky do if Joyce’s answer to that last question was “yes”? Because if Becky stays with Dina, this is a question that will undoubtedly rear its head again in the future, and even though I’m sure Dina will be compassionate and accommodating, it can still be a very lonely feeling engaging in an activity or memoriam that means a lot to you, but you know that your partner does not and is only accompanying you for your sake.