Eh, she’s just re-purposing that Biblical knowledge that’s still floating around in her brain after years of indoctrination (and will probably stay floating around for a very long time).
Considering how many more quick saves she’ll have to make like this without displaying anxiety that would be a dead give away, depending on how desperate she is, she could take beta-blockers (herbal or otherwise) to block the symptoms. All depends on whether she would think the costs would outweigh the benefits though.
I mean, surely common beta-blockers and roots with those properties were fine in her community?
I feel like beta-blockers are old enough to be still “permitted” in that brand of Chistianity (AFAIK, it’s more like Latter Day Saints who would frown on them?)
Yet Joyce still wouldn’t know about them because if she still has trouble lying, she hasn’t started the “getting things done though chemicals” phase of college yet. Hell, I’m even sure she hasn’t heard of Chemical Romances, let alone of experimenting with them.
Fascinating, I always thought that Chemical Romance was just the name of a band!
I’m not the one for Romantic relationships (I’d be willing to try out the classical kind though), but I already appreciate the chemicals all around us that have made the modern world we know and love!
But in the more colloquial sense of the word, I definitely don’t think that any of the substances I’d be willing to try count as “hard chemicals”.
Actually, I originally brought up the possibility of Joyce using Beta Blockers to prevent Becky from finding her out because the strategy was mentioned in Cinema Summary‘s video about Death Note 2.
She might just be avoidant of medical procedures due to a needle phobia or something like that. (Remember the “needles in my eyes” comment at the optometrist? Or how well she took the flu shot way back wgen?)
Wow, her look was surprisingly flamboyant in that strip.
Evidently, it might very well be possible that she may try taking something, if not beta-blockers then cough-syrup or something like it to hide her new beliefs from Becky (especially considering that the likely closet blow-out is more likely to happen in sister Christian).
By the way, I only mentioned cough syrup as an example of something people try for this purpose. I definitely would NOT recommend it, because in some people it can actually lead to opium addiction.
Maybe, but this isn’t the day Becky wants things to come crashing down. It’s a very Joyce thing to say and that’s good enough for her conscious mind for now.
Oh, trust me, the indoctrinated information sticks around … probably for the rest of her life in some form or another. I left The Church fifteen years ago, and can still pull those random data to the fore if the situation calls for it. She’s been gone for, what, a couple of months? The fact that she can give that answer isn’t surprising AT ALL.
Is she actually gone yet though? I think Becky would have noticed if Joyce has stopped attending church. I think she’s Left The Church, but not left church yet, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that’s been kind of bugging me too. We haven’t seen her go since the trip with Jacob. The week after that we saw her skip. Conveniently Becky had to campaign. That was the last Sunday before the timeskip.
It feels right that she hasn’t gone since, but I can’t imagine she’s been able to pull that off without letting Becky know. I think she must have been going. Likely we’ll see when we get to Sunday.
I still have Biblical knowledge in my brain from my comic book Bible I had as a kid (that was more for adolescents and I was maybe 8, but I was an advanced reader). I still sometimes think of Bible stories that demonstrate a life principle I want to make a point about sometimes, even though I don’t believe in the theology anymore. And I see it as valuable knowledge in terms of humanities/anthropology, like, I have knowledge of a particular culture’s mythology/cosmology. Although it’s emic knowledge, not etic, but it enhances the etic knowledge I have since gained about Christianity’s history.
Jesus’ sermons in the gospels have quite a few decent bits. The Good Samaritan for instance. Basically just be nice to each other.
The Old Testament less so. “Walking around a city once a day for 6 days then 7 times on the 7th day will cause the walls to fall down” seems unlikely to work and also not that useful in day to day life.
“If it rains really hard build a boat and get two of every creature on board to repopulate the planet” would require an incredibly large boat, and lead to rather more inbreeding than would likely be healthy for the new population.
Thanks for sharing, but I was kind of specifically asking Meagan, but it’s alright.
The Amish are the only Christian group I know about that’s totally fine with inbreeding, but I’m honestly not surprised that the people who wrote the Bible had no concept of modern genetics or biology (especially not vaccines or blood transfusions).
Side thought, do you think there’s any value to the part of the passover story where Yahweh takes away the Pharaoh’s free will to prevent him from liberating the Israelites (Exodus 4:21)?
That’s probably because there are *reasons* we leave the faith our parents attempted to give us. When we encounter those reasons, we feel uncomfortable. Also, when we encounter anything that talks about not leaving the faith, directly or indirectly, we tend to feel uncomfortable. The latter tends to fade over time, the former does not.
Passover includes the latter sort of material. Depending on why exactly you left your parents’ faith, it might also contain the former sort of material.
Literally, no. But historically, it looks like the sort of thing that is probably an interesting artifact of the transition of Jewish culture from veneration of a patron deity to true monotheism. I’d bet that originally the story had the Pharaoh’s gods hardening his heart, but at some point it was edited to remove all mentions of those gods existing or having real power.
So the story is nowhere near as bad as many people believe it to be, if you’re willing to discard thousands of years of religious dogma and the very concept of monotheism.
Maybe. It’s not really all that different from a lot of the rest of the Hebrew Bible though – There’s a lot of “Israel was bad so God made a foreign nation attack and conquer them” stuff going on there.
It’s definitely tied to the shift from a patron deity, but I’m not sure it’s linked to Pharoah’s gods hardening his heart, but just to the God of Abraham only being concerned with his people. Even as he shifted to the only God, that remained. Other peoples were only important as they were used by God to either punish Israel or deliver them from punishment.
I can’t tell if Becky bought it, or if she still suspects that Joyce no longer believes in any of it. But I’m kinda hoping she won’t keep prodding for now.
I’m afraid you’re absolutely right, and the results will be tragic…they will go to McDonald’s for ice cream, only to discover that the machine is down today.
Nah, I’m just joshing you! It’s McDonald’s, the ice cream machine is down every day.
I thought it was A Thing that the machines don’t break, they just require an intensive and hasslesome cleaning procedure every couple of hours, and if the store is too busy or the staff can’t be bothered they just proclaim it broken to get out of doing it?
The worst horror stories are the ones that have a basis indistinguishable from reality, which is to say “I am a wuss that eschews a whole genre because I’m easily scared”. Anyway, I wish I hadn’t clicked on this at 2 am |DD
The maintenance cleaning is done once a fortnight, but if they half-assed it it’ll break down regularly during busy periods. What mostly happens is the ice cream mix is being used and refilled so rapidly that cooling process can’t keep up. If the mix comes out it’s not food safe and really runny.
TBF, the machines are deliberately badly designed because the company that makes them have a monopoly on repair technicians.
I remember reading something about a sustained low voltage electrical current being sent into the base of the skull, and how it had the effect of greatly increasing the speed at which a new language was learned, but I can’t seem to find anything else on it right now, and god knows what side effects that’d have.
Nootropics? ADHD meds if you haven’t got ADHD. (If you DO have it, tho, all it causes is that SUDDENLY YOU’RE ABLE TO FOCUS. No cool superpowers but hey, I get to finally strike some shit from my list when I couldn’t, so.)
I’ve heard of Adderal, but I think the side effects of that are so dangerous that I’d only ever use them in a life-threatening, EMERGENCY situation.
Besides, if Family Guy is right about anything, that stuff doesn’t make you have good ideas as much as it just makes you have A LOT of ideas.
Given my experience researching alleged “nootropics”, they generally fall into one of three categories:
1. Boring, mundane stuff that’s already seen common usage (caffeine, etc.).
2. Vitamins and mineral supplements that don’t help your brain in any way other then prevent it from suffering due to malnutrition. If you’re diet isn’t horribly unbalanced (not including vitamin-enriched cereal), you probably shouldn’t bother. (B12, Niacin, etc.)
3. Dangerous, illegal drugs that are banned for a good reason (Cocaine, Methamphetamine, etc.)
Not to say that I wouldn’t microdose something like mushrooms or LSD like once in a great while, albeit under highly controlled circumstances and very limited dosages. Silicon Valley workers actually microdose on one occasion to aid in problem-solving, although the clinically verified benefits of the practice are as of yet unclear (mostly just because those drugs being illegal makes them MUCH harder to study).
I was really after things like specific mental or physical exercises that build cognitive bandwidth the same way specific exercises specifically make your legs stronger or faster).
But thanks for sharing, I very much do appreciate that!
I’ve seen a lot of things that aren’t actually psychoactive to be purported as Nootropics, that much is true. But there’s newer stuff coming out all the time. But for example, there’s Modafinil – A weird little med that isn’t really a stimulant, because it doesn’t mess with your level of dopamine. It’s a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, which means that whatever dopamine you have, you have it for longer. Good for you on shunning Adderall and the rest though, because us ADHD-havers have enough trouble getting a doctor to believe us without all the Law and Engineering students who want to cram for an exam.
I’d like to have those specific mental or physical exercises that build cognitive bandwidth as well if you get some tips other than “do meditation” (I cannot, my brain doesn’t shut up and it’s not even saying anything useful). But in case yours has the ability to? Yeah, most def meditation in that case, with yoga as an aid if you can.
Learning another language is also always good for those neural pathways, but even more if you get to the point you can use it creatively. Interestingly enough, “learning an instrument” also counts (and music is math you can perceive with your senses), but so do computer languages as long as you’re building new things with it.
Those law and engineering students are definitely hurting themselves too by using Adderal, cause it can REALLY fuck you up unless you know what you’re down to the finest physiological and pharmacologcal details (generally you use medication like this only as prescribed by a doctor, for very good reasons). Not to say that even over-the-counter meds like Benedril can’t also fuck you up, but anyway…
Regarding meditation, due to my anxiety condition and current circumstances, I’m one of the unfortunate many who can’t even get CLOSE to such a state without cannabis. But when I do, it’s SO releaving… Sometimes when I take a little bit of dark chocolate with the stuff, I get an incredibly insightful explosion of cognitive power, but I’m not sure if that would be useful in concrete problem-solving like engineering and such (but maybe for digital art?) it’s more like a boost for abstract, even philosophical thinking in particular; even then, I don’t know how to intentionally recreate that effect, at least for now.
As for solving problems in programming, I’ll have to try that out!!! Perhaps certain games requiring engineering-related and open-ended problem-solving can also have that effect? Games like Factorio, Rim-World, and Don’t Starve come to mind.
When it comes to MacGyver-style, creative as hell problem solving in video games, Ambiguous Amphibian is an incredible inspiration to me.
But seeing that I’m gonna have to learn python for lots of physics jobs, I’m probably gonna work on programming next!
By the way, care to tell me the source that recommended programming puzzles as a nootropic exercise?
What most people don’t know is Adderal is medically pure meth. in small doses it helps people focus, which is critical for some neuro-divergent people. It also prevents the dental issues that come with home-made meth.
look it’s a suggestion that belongs on the list and isn’t here yet, but tbh kinda boring.
Meditation/mindfulness exercises. do the parasympathetic nervous system activation deep breathing, do the slow the brain down, do the ‘noting’ exercises, take the time, whateva. Do it while you clean or run if the ~standard~ lotus sit or yoga don’t do it for you.
Also look for ‘working memory’ as a common term that means a similar thing to ‘cognitive bandwidth’- how many things can you keep in mind at once. there are working memory exercises that exist.
There are some (muggle) mushrooms that have neuroactive properties with some notable research behind them. lions mane mushroom is one, that a few people i respect as sensible and science-minded have considered worth experimenting with, tho it’s not something they’d stake much on. just cos they’ve got time and some spare cash.
oh, fuk yeah,learn a language/music are crazy good for your brain. A second language adds like 1-2 years of function to a brain with neurodegeneration, eg alzheimers/dementia. The brain still degenerates- the additional language doesn’t slow that down. It’s just that what’s LEFT of the brain has enough capacity to keep being a brain for longer. Wild. like. like if your feet were so dextrous your hands could degrade and you wouldn’t eve necessarily notice cos your feet can take on full hand duties.
A year or two ago, I came across a Japanese legend where Samurai would master a breathing technique that makes it so that they never run out of stamina. Not that I think it’s an instant ticket to superpowers or anything, but I’ve actually been practicing my breathing whenever I could since then to see if I could get any such beneficial effects. Thus far, I HAVE gotten better as blowing up balloons, but nothing else other than that.
If your ADHD is bad enough the idea of the best-case scenario from meds sounds like a fucking superpower. “You can focus?? AT WILL?! You can actually DO STUFF without getting distracted after half a second and forgetting what you were doing completely??? You can- you can remember important stuff? Forget flying, that sounds phenomenal!”
…Yes I am struggling with my own ADHD, was that obvious?
I know of clinically proven ways to slow down age-related loss of cognitive bandwidth, which, if my old lady brain recalls correctly, boil down to:
* Allow for defragging and virus checking (get more than 7 hours of sleep per night)
* Keep the CPU free of dust and corrosion (avoid consuming things that cause internal discomfort because that’s a sign of inflammation which can prompt inflammation in other tissues including your brain; practice good dental hygiene and have all dental problems seen to promptly because not doing so is a real good way to get system-wide inflammation going; visit your doctor at the first sign of something not right Down There because bladder infections ditto)
* Delete stuff that’s mucking up your system (drink your water or whatever you can get down that doesn’t harm you, and exercise at least a little bit to improve circulation; these will help you clean crap out of your circulatory system before it heads for your brain; also, go easy on stuff that clogs arteries because the clogs can throw off bits that go up into the vessels of the brain and cause strokes)
* Know when to call I.T. (learn the signs of mini-strokes and other warning signals for bad brain stuff, because if you have them seen to immediately, the effects may be less bad)
“should” is the most treacherous word in English. first-person usage summarizing positional evaluation is the only safe way to handle that shit, AFAIK. ymmv, dyodd, etc.
Becky has many reasons to trust Joyce and their friendship, many times that she can look at and think ‘Joyce has my back forever’. I don’t necessarily think Joyce has that from Becky, if only because Joyce has never, to my memory, gone to Becky with her troubles. She goes to Sarah, to Dorothy, even to Joe. Not Becky. They love each other, but there’s a definite fear and/or lack of trust on Joyce’s part, I feel, in that unwillingness to confide.
That’s because Becky hasn’t been available and in this situation is the subject of Joyce’s anxiety. But we’ve only witnessed a very brief timeframe of these characters. Joyce has known Becky for years. Much longer than any of her current relationships. I’d be surprised if she’s never trusted or confided in her. I think this is just the one very specific circumstance that makes her nervous.
Absolutely not. She is not by any means required to just Becky about this. Joyce doesn’t have to confide in ANYONE she doesn’t feel safe coming out to, for any reason. If Becky can’t understand that and feels genuinely wounded enough to hold that against Joyce? Then honestly, Joyce is perfectly in the right to be wary of trusting her.
I HOPE Becky doesn’t react badly. But I’m honestly not fully convinced that she won’t. Which is probably how Joyce feels, and why she doesn’t want to talk about it yet.
It’s not just their friendship. It’s implied last time Joyce said suicides went to hell, not knowing Bonnie was a suicide. Saying “Your mom’s gone. God’s a lie they fed us for 18 years” on the anniversary of her death might be worse than just “Doctrine says…”
I don’t disagree that she should let Becky know her situation … but today is not the day for that conversation. In fact not this week to be on the safe side.
Firstly, the last time Joyce implied to Becky that she was losing her faith Becky was not supportive.
Secondly there’s a time and a place and that is not when she’s trying to be supportive not just over the reminder of Becky’s mother’s passing but also the reminder of whatever awful thing(s) Joyce remembers saying.
Honestly it is. Just the ability to reach out and grab something like that? I mean, I know she’s got it all memorised and such, but still. Damn, girl. Smoooooooooooooooooth.
I used to be an Adventist and they used to REALLY emphasize that, so it’s funny what parts of the bible you know well depending on what your denomination is. This would have come to my mind right away even though I’ve been an atheist for like 20 years now
But the Adventists, if I understand correctly, do believe what Joyce describes here – the dead remaining dead until some future day of resurrection, rather than souls going and living in heaven (or hell) upon death, which is what Joyce’s brand of fundamentalism believes. So it’s natural they’d emphasize this passage, but strange that Joyce would.
Being unable to be honest with your friend sucks, but I get if Joyce isn’t ready yet. Beyond that, the last time they argued theology, it got nasty, but that may have been more that Joyce was being dismissive with waving off Becky’s concerns about premarital sex that pissed Becky off, rather than an indication Becky is going to lash out at Joyce for leaving Christianity.
I suspect that Becky going to ‘I’ve been at odds with the church for way longer and I still have faith’ in that discussion, regardless of Joyce’s tone then, doesn’t suggest much good. It’s still true, Becky’s situation’s gotten even worse since then, Becky’s clearly not in a great headspace today if she does keep pushing, and absolutely none of that changes the fact that Becky’s belief in God was always more flexible than Joyce’s, which was primarily a belief in authority (specifically, the adults in their lives.) On some level, I don’t think Becky gets that difference yet, and I could see her taking it badly still. (Especially now.)
Oh, God was important. God was watching, and God was above all JUDGING and therefore life must be lived in constant fear of observation.
It’s just that under that fear there wasn’t actually any trust, it was all reflexive avoidance of punishment. Once she started thinking about the concept of a God who wasn’t a complete authoritarian, that the adults who taught them might be WRONG and she’d have to think about what God meant TO HER, it all fell apart.
I don’t think it was fear, exactly. Fear might have been a part of it, but a bigger part of it was relationship and community. When the community proved toxic and the relationship proved one-sided, that’s when Joyce started questioning.
I have trouble buying this. I know Becky’s last reaction to even a shallow inkling of this subject was bad but Joyce was being rather dismissive and pissy herself. I think they both deserve more credit for the friendship they have. Becky came to Joyce first at the most vulnerable time in her life and shared her truth about herself. Losing faith isn’t the same as coming out but it still shares a similar emotional vulnerability. I think it would be pretty hypocritical for Becky to judge Joyce for not having strong enough faith. I do think she’ll be very pissed Joyce has lied to her multiple times now over this.
Hypocritical, maybe, but I think Joyce’s atheism will hit Becky right in her insecurities and trauma – especially because, yes, she lied about it. Joyce still being Christian was something Becky had over Dorothy in her one-sided rivalry for Ultimate Best Frienddom, and that’s a thing because Joyce is effectively the ONLY THING Becky still has from their old lives. (There is Hank and Jocelyne, but they are of course Becky’s through Joyce.) Becky’s demonstrated before that her faith was more flexible and she doesn’t get why Joyce would need to reject evolution to still believe in original sin, or have the same exact juice boxes for communion to be communion, or why Joyce’s response post-Becky coming out was to find interpretations of scripture that say gayness was actually okay. (In some of these it actually upset Becky she was doing this.)
If Joyce is an atheist, then that’s one of the last few tethers to their old life gone. It’s Joyce without something that’s long been her defining quality. And it’s a Joyce that has another thing in common with her shiny new best friend, and maybe she doesn’t need Becky anymore. It’s not rational, and it’s not pretty, and I guarantee it won’t be permanent, but there are plenty of reasons for Becky to struggle with this because she didn’t want college to change Joyce THAT MUCH.
Losing faith IS like coming out though. Coming out as an atheist to a religious family or community is often almost just as nervewracking, fraught, and potentially dangerous as coming out as queer. People get kicked out and disowned for coming out as atheists.
There is not necessarily the same degree of societal persecution and systemic oppression towards atheists (AT LEAST IN MOST OF THE US, THIS IS NOT THE CASE FOR MANY OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD) as there is for queer people, but that doesn’t make the personal and social repercussions any less devastating.
Atheists are literally more distrusted than any other major religious group in the US, and they’re distrusted about as much as rapists. Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22059841/
So there’s a lot of stigma around atheism. Joyce’s trepidation is warranted.
It’s so weird to see this sort of thing, have a church always in view from every street corner in town, and then almost never run into the freaks that would have a problem with me for not sharing their religion. Like, I don’t disbelieve it, considering the Way this shithole country is, it just somehow never comes up, which I know is probably just luck.
Straight up. I live in a conservative deeply homophobic christian country and I’ve received worse reactions and straight up harassment for coming out as an atheist than i have for coming out as bisexual
It’s even worse than that in many places. There are a handful of U.S. States, and even whole COUNTRIES on this planet that yearn to KILL us on first notice.
All of this discrimination and violence, not for being the wrong skin color, not for harming or harassing a single person, but for not believing in something for which we have no evidence.
Becky’s concerning me too, especially given in this strip she’s being invasive regarding Joyce, although not necessarily maliciously, but still kind of a bad habit she picked up from her group that she needs to drop.
” When one lays down with dogs, one gets up with fleas. “
Naaaah. They weren’t going to have a moment and last time Joyce demonstrated any lapsing on her faith Becky had A Reaction. This wasn’t going to go over well. I feel like it might’ve been easier for Joyce to accept someone she deeply loved is a lesbian than it’d be for Becky to understand Joyce has embraced atheism in any given case… But specially on such a day.
Of course, Drama Rules stay that this Chekov Gun will go off in the worst possible moment tho. So while that was a good save, the clock is ticking.
Willis has been known to play the long game with Chekov’s gun. I recall the party Joyce threw, inviting both Amber and Sal. How many years before that gun fired? In the Walkyverse, I recall the first newspaper with a picture of Head Alien. In DOA, Willis is revisiting the themes of the Walkyverse but with a more modern and nuanced sensibility and with much more room for the plot and character development to breath. But I am first and foremost an SF fan and this is why the forbidden rooms at the end of the hall give me hope. Chekov’s gun. First glimpse.
That and the confidence that come from the conviction that it is well nigh impossible for Willis to never draw an action fight scene again.
Lotsa gospels to pick around, and yet the Council of Nicaea picks the one fucker’s that’s obviously Self-Insert Fanfic. Way to go, Emperor Constantine.
(It was all on purpose because what he wanted when converting the Roman Empire to Christianism, calling for the church to say what was (biblical) canon and what wasn’t, was over-all to bring order to his lands. It makes sense that Paul, the mofo who thinks love is fear and women should be subservient to their husbands, would be picked over idk. The Book of Enoch.)
Paul didn’t write a gospel so I don’t know what you’re talking about here.
Beyond that, it’s not like Paul was some obscure nobody that wrote some nonsense that Constantine dredged up centuries later. Paul wasn’t a disciple and never met Jesus, but once he converted he was apparently the main driver of spreading Christianity to the gentiles. He had enormous influence on the religion long before Constantine. It’s quite possible that without him it would have remained an obscure Jewish sect.
The genuine Pauline letters are also the oldest parts of the New Testament and give us a lot of insight into what was happening in those early days. (Note as well that First Timothy – which is where much of the “women should be silent” stuff comes from is generally considered by scholars not to be written by Paul, but to date from a later time.)
Yeah, Paul never met him. He was going around after the fact killing the followers of Jesus and then had a Sudden Revelation on the road. You know, where no one else could see and verify his story. Suddenly he’s telling people that they should believe him and that he knows what Jesus taught better than anyone else ever, and you should definitely ignore what James says – you know, Jesus’ brother.
Paul also ended at least one of the Epistles with basically “Hey, the church members in that other city have been much better than you at sending donations for the building of a Temple, and you should really get the lead out if you want to not disappoint Jesus.”
Which reminds me very much of someone, say, asking for campaign donations and/or legal fees from their constituents that never seem to quite get used for the intended purpose.
I’ve taken to saying that I really like Yeshua ben Yusup, the revolutionary philosopher, and I kinda hate Jesus Christ, the Perfect Person/God. Both are preferable to Paul.
Hard to say which is really preferable, since Christianity as it has come down to us is heavily influenced by Paul. By the time the Gospels were written, Christianity was largely Pauline. What we know of Yeshua ben Yusup is all filtered through writings influenced by Paul. Same with Jesus Christ, the Perfect Person/God.
(And some of what Paul “wrote” likely wasn’t written by Paul either, so our impression of Paul might well not be correct.)
As for James, while he (likely?) was the brother of Jesus, he probably wasn’t a disciple or a follower of Jesus until after his death. How much he knew of Jesus’s teachings first hand isn’t clear. He only appears as a leader in the Jerusalem based Jesus movement later on and seems to have been part of the faction that considered it more of reform Judaism than a new religion.
I would be very surprised if Joyce did that willingly, personally. The last time she even edged in the direction of ‘this stuff isn’t real, you know’ Becky fully bit her head off. It was a bad fight. Add to that, look how Becky treats the only openly atheist person in her orbit who isn’t her girlfriend, Dorothy: endless, often verging on vicious, torment. Emphatic insistence on her ‘enemy’ status. Et cetera.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Joyce feels her newfound atheism would cause her to not only lose Becky’s friendship, but gain her antipathy.
Which truth though? It seems the community here is kinda split on what exactly Joyce is thinking of. is it either a) I’m atheist now, so Heaven doesn’t exist, or b) Church dogma says suicide victims go to Hell? (Old old readers of IW might know what I’m talking about…) I’m pretty sure the latter would be definitely a “Big Ugly Possibly-Friendship-Ending Fight” should Joyce bring it up, so it might definitely be for the best if Joyce just kept this one to herself.
Oh, sweetie, I get it not being ready. That said, this could become a Thing if she keeps it in too long so I am definitely anxious how this’ll shake out.
But it’s also a lot easier to comfort your friend and give theme time to do as they need to before addressing a topic that might be the end of your friendship.
Of course, if this series of panels is any indication (and it might not be, I dunno, I can’t read into things that well), said friend might more understanding of her friend’s internal struggle.
It’s actually in the Book of Revelations (or at least, most translations of it).
I don’t know what’s funnier — the Giant Golden Cube, or an alien emperor throwing alien souls into Hawaii’s volcanos and blowing them up with nuclear weapons!
Sensitive situation for all involved, check.
Emotional situation where it is hard to “deny” Beckys demand, check.
Ignoring Joyces obvious discomfort, check.
Demanding information thereby ignoring boundaries again, check.
Forcing Joyce into a lie, check.
Dude you take this stuff way too seriously. This is the equivalent to “dude you’re acting weird, what’s wrong? No seriously, tell me what’s wrong”
This is a normal thing normal friends do. Relax.
I find it interesting that Becky probably would be very irritated with Joyce over this. Because Becky holds it as a point of pride she kept her faith in great adversity while Joyce’s loss of it is not related to adversity at all. It wasn’t her parents betrayal or hypocrisy that broke her, it was her lack of belief in the supernatural.
This was a long night of the soul and a triumph for Becky while Joyce just doesn’t believe in her prophetic dreams.
Honestly how many of you reading this actually listen to Jehovah’s Witnesses’ whole door-to-door sermons?
And just a side question, how many of you, if any, don’t think they qualify as “Christians”? I’ve heard people say this sometimes, but I don’t know why.
To stack onto this, how many have actually encountered the infamous JW door-knocking? We have a building of theirs on the edge of my town, but I’ve never seen a single one and been aware of it.
It only happened to me twice in my entire life, they always come wearing very fancy black suits and a suitcase full of copies of their literature.
In hindsight, I regret both times not yet being prepared to discuss what and why they believe what they do, in particular because sexual abuse in that group is even WORSE than in the catholic church.
And that’s not even an over-generalization. The JW organization has bi-laws that seem almost deliberately designed to protect molesters within the group and punish victims (like the “Two-Witness” rule).
But I am still very grateful that, in recent years, the JW organization got what was coming to them when they had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars worth of settlements for sexual abuse lawsuits.
They came to my house once. It was Christmas. My grandfather opened the door and was very politely listening to them but it was over half and hour or so and we were waiting to open presents so my granny finally said ‘We’re busy’ and slammed the door.
There also might have been a couple when my brother and I were young but we weren’t to open the door when our parents weren’t home. We didn’t open the door the first time but they would not LEAVE. My brother opened the door the next time because he wanted to tell them to go but I yelled ‘NO’ and slammed the door. They gave up at that part.
Seriously. We were in the middle of presents. EVERYBODY was tired of waiting. My grandfather is just a nearly endlessly patient man and would’ve let them talk all day if they wanted to.
This might be a pop myth, but I remember reading once that the whole thing about Jehovah’s Witnesses isn’t about converting you, it’s about teaching them that everyone outside of their circle is an asshole. If I tell someone off for knocking at my door to preach at me, I think that’s normal, but what’s it do to the preacher if every single person they come across tells them off?
It’s even worse than that. They’re taught that the entire world is run by Satan, and that even by associating closely with outsiders, they are taking part in their “wicked work”. They’re a separatist group, and they teach their outsiders that they are living in the end-times, that everything around them is succumbing to the forces of the devil, and that the only way to salvation is to obey whatever the Watchtower Magazine tells then down to the letter.
Yeah, but specifically, they’re taught to go on missions with the stated intent of saving those wicked outsiders. The result of that supposed outreach often does more to convince them the outside is hostile than to actually convert anyone. At least in some cults, this is intentional. Done to further isolate members from the outside.
Compare to regular Christian missionary work, which has its own huge problems, but is actually aimed at winning converts. And grifting, but it’s all aimed at grifting.
It’s true that you might see them interacting with outsiders on a basic level just to try to convert them, but the group’s separatist policies place a very strict limit on these interactions.
That feeds into it though – their other interactions are limited but there are requirements for proselytizing. This means that most of their interactions will be adversarial and that serves to isolate them more than just not letting them interact at all would, since it means that when they do interact with outsiders, those outsiders will likely be hostile, giving them a false impression of what the outside world is like generally.
The house I lived in until I graduated high school had a Jehova’s Witness church down the street in reasonable walking distance. I can’t recall them ever doing the door-to-door thing. They seemed very closed off and private, and the only interaction that I had with them they were being pretty jerkish.
I don’t particularly have a good view of the JW, though. I had one coworker who was a JW who was really nice, but we had a family friend’s wife get kicked out of her family because she married out of the religion. She had to move to our state for a little while and try to integrate herself into a new JW church. It was really frustrating to watch because her husband DID want to become a JW and would attend meetings and read the scripture but they still treated him like an outsider.
I can’t understand how they expect their cult to gain new members if they do such drastic things.
Like Spencer mentioned, I get the impression it’s designed from the ground up to isolate members and essentially trick them into thinking everyone outside the group is an amoral jackass. From that angle, I can totally see why they’d be assholes themselves, because if they just expect hostility from outsiders as a matter of fact, they’ll always be on edge. It’s creepy.
We had a JW church on our block when I went to high school. We used to get their trainees all the time. My mother would tell them she was a Reformed Druid. That would usually get rid of them, or at least leave them very confused. If they asked about it, she would say that they worship oak trees, but don’t sacrifice virgins anymore.
I had a short conversation with one outside the immigration office after renewing my visa. They’re always hanging out by the bus stop handing out leaflets, presumably on the assumption that foreigners are more likely to feel isolated and as such are easier targets. Mormons are also bad for this, although they’re more into starting up conversations with strangers on the train, or on the street, or anywhere.
Neither tried to explain anything to me, just to invite me to whatever meetings they had. Which is kind of worse.
Joyce, ya really ought to have told Becky the truth awhile ago. I can understand not telling her today, but you should tell her tomorrow at the latest.
Becky’s asking about Joyce’s hesitation, but maybe not just for the reason Joyce hesitated. They would both be familiar with the idea that people who commit suicide go to hell. Joyce was worried she’d said something along those lines in the past year.
The thing about suicide going to Hell is I’m not sure what churches are supposed to believe it. Salvation by faith alone Fundamentalists would claim that she’s in Heaven because you’re saved by Jesus no matter what. Catholicism has it as a mortal sin but mortal sins aren’t damning automatically. Its just something you shouldn’t do (and mental illness is a automatic out according to the Catechism). So who believes suicides go to Hell other than television Christianity?
Hi, I was raised Catholic! In South America so maybe that’s not your experience of Catholicism, but basically… Yes, you don’t got to Hell automatically for #MortalSins (if you confess them and do the penance) – With the SOLE exception of suicide! To this day you won’t get a priest to bless a funeral if the departed did it so through suicide – Because if you committed suicide, that was literally the last thing you did. Created by god, raising your hand in violence against yourself, no confession, no extremeution, etc etc.
Also, just to be technical here: since while Bonnie died as a result of her suicide, I believe she didn’t die immediately. She spend some time in the hospital afterwards.
This would have given her time to repent and be forgiven under that Catholic paradigm. Not that their brand of fundamentalism works quite the same way of course.
The basic logic of suicide being damning because it’s a sin that you aren’t able to repent before you die may still hold.
My mother committed suicide. A few *rather liberal* Catholic priests assured me that she was in heaven, and seemed rather disdainful of the idea that she wasn’t. One even assured me that as long as my atheist sister lived a good life, she would go to heaven… but still asked me to try to invite her to church.
The original idea in Catholicism was that suicides automatically went to Hell, because they couldn’t receive confession, you know, on account of being dead. However, this is no longer an official belief by the Catholic church, with the new stance being that “one would not commit suicide if they were in their right mind, and someone with mental problems cannot be held responsible for sin, therefore suicide cannot be a mortal sin, because mortal sin requires that the doer have full knowledge of the sins gravity.”
Very glad to know the stance has shifted in places better than the rundown orchard between the sea and the mountain I inhabit. My auntie’s brother committed suicide two years ago and the priest fucked off without doing the funeral once he was told the man had hung himself. This happened right before the funeral service started, mind you – No fucks given.
Yep! I’m from Chile (under Peru, next to Argentina, can’t miss it), and older priests still adhere to several dogmas that have already deemed Not Cool by the Pope. Specially in rural areas, where they have the supreme reign over their congregation (by virtue of no other priests being around). So while I didn’t know that particular thing had being upturned, I’m utterly unsurprised as well.
Fundamentalists believe a lot of contradictory things, and not all of them believe the same contradictory things. “saved by Jesus no matter what” has a lot of exceptions, along the lines of “if they’d really been saved, they wouldn’t have done whatever sin”.
Even if it’s not something preached from the pulpit, damnation for suicide an idea they are familiar with, something Joyce could easily have been afraid she alluded to it during “the times I said probably some awful, tonedeaf things.” https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/spring/
Too everyone saying Joyce is doing wrong not being honest:
People should get to choose when, and to whom, they come out. Closets might be lies, and they might be unhealthy, but not being ready to come out of the closet isn’t morally wrong.
A+++ comment. Also, you don’t get out of the closet if you feel unsafe unless it’s in a burst of desperation that might as well be of a cornered cat or self-destructive impulses. Which Becky should know, as she only nuked her closet from orbit once she was away from her father and in one of them’ godless universities full of queer communists and whatever.
I used to be in the “I must always tell the truth, no matter what,” boat, and you know what, after the fact I don’t think that’s always the best choice. The classic counterexample is “It’s ethical to lie to protect Jewish people from Nazis” (or disabled people, GLBTQIA+ people, etc. obviously), but despite hearing that counterexample and embracing that in my teens, I otherwise kinda held to this until after my first relationship. This was the one where I was excessively honest a number of times about things that only caused my girlfriend stress (e.g. about people I’d had crushes on), and was trying to answer questions like “But do you love me more than you loved that person back then?”, which I was legit unsure of. My solution at the time was eventually “Yes, I do,” and then making sure that was true by my actions. There, I told the truth. In that case, it was fine, and not a bad thing. Looking back, it was still a good relationship. But some of the other things I felt compelled to express, I told her for *my* benefit, so *I* could feel that I had done right and been entirely truthful (for a very broad interpretation of truthfulness), not because she had any reason to need to know them, and they only caused her all sorts of stress. I don’t think it was always the right thing to do.
In this strip, if Joyce *did* just come clean and say, “I’m sorry, I just don’t believe in any spiritual world or existence after death any more. I want to say that I believe that, because I still think that’s a comforting thought, but I can’t, truthfully,’ then that’s all for Joyce getting to tell the truth to her friend, no matter the consequences. That’s being kind of a shitty friend, here, bcause Becky’s the one in need.
It’s not like Joyce has empirical evidence that these things DON’T exist, or that ACTUALLY Becky’s mom was kidnapped by… uh… Sgt. Gramps, I guess, working in league with Asher’s grandpa? and they have to go save her? Since she lost her faith, if anything, she probably believes she *can’t* know if there’s anything (and, by Occam’s Razor, since that thing she spent her whole life making herself believe seems to have been bunk, all religion probably is). And Becky’s beliefs seem to be the decidedly positive kinds of religious/spiritual beliefs at this point, so it’s not like there’s any real reason for Joyce to *want* to convince her that this belief system is bad. And it’s seemingly giving Becky comfort. So, if Joyce tells the truth, then not only is she risking upsetting Becky and being an insensitive friend, if she thinks she might be convincing in her arguments, she might strip Becky of one of her main comforts, for the sake of “I must always tell the truth”. That seems like taking Kantian ideas too far, and ignoring the effects of those actions.
Yeah, seemingly unquestionable tenets like “don’t lie”, “don’t steal”, “treat others the way you want to be treated”, etc., aren’t really “moral absolutes” as many religious and traditions claim them to be. These secular rules of thumb actually work because they offer ideas on personal boundaries and personal bonding that help social species like humans coexist.
They are better off referred to as “moral rules of thumb” because, truth be told, they SHOULDN’T always be followed.For instance, lying can be a moral act when it prevents someone from being persecuted. Stealing a pair of car-keys from an abuser could prevent them from harming their targets, and would also be moral.
I also can’t believe Science Jesus cares what beliefs we may have about those who have passed from the physical realm, because there’s by definition there’s a dearth of evidence… so we might as well construct a most excellent story about what we want to see, and see if anyone’ll take us up on the suggestions. And, so long as we remember it’s a belief, we have not violated the Science Gospels. (Although Richard Dawkins is probably mad, but TBH he’s usually probably mad. Did he die? He’s probably extra-mad if he’s dead and sees people still ascribing agency to him. …The image of Richard Dawkins watching over us from the clouds, a la the Lion King, IS an especially good one, though.)
In short, I’m way into Becky’s Waterslides-of-Heaven idea. But I hope there’s a good Heavenly Snack Bar up there, too, and that the lines are just long enough to make the snacks taste extra good.
Hitchens was hilariously hired by the Vatican to provide a detailed report on why Mother Theresa should not be made a saint. He joked that it was weird to hire atheists and then found out that all saints usually had atheists hired to provide arguments because they don’t want to spoil the data by bias.
So apparently even the Vatican likes atheist views for evaluation.
I’ve heard that the Catholic Church attempts to maintain large political influence. Perhaps this is why they hire atheists?
I would see why they would do something like that, because the alternative, claims of infallibility, are extremely hazardous to work with, as their popes no doubt discovered long ago.
Papal infallibility was declared a formal doctrine in the 1800s — it didn’t mean everything the Pope uttered was absolutely unmistakable — only certain, rare pronouncements on faith got this status.
The reason for this rarity becomes clear when you consider what happens if any new infallible statement is found to contradict any old infallible statement. Infallibility allows for no refutation. EVERY single infallible statement made throughout history has to line up — one SINGLE contradiction, and the whole scheme falls apart.
Far from allowing religious leaders some wonderful freedom to say whatever they want and have it accepted as truth, infallibility walls them in, progressively limiting what they’re able to say. A wise pontiff will make as few officially infallible statements as possible during using reign.
In practice, however, religious leaders and especially ordinary people are not that careful. They claim to “just know” all the time. Fatal contradictions soon arise when their proportedly infallible testimonies don’t align with the proportedly infallible testimonies of others — which reveals that some of these people, if not ALL of these people, must be wrong.
Papal Infallibility is actually something that only gets invoked rarely. The Pontiff can be flawed in numerous ways but sometimes they make a super-special super-duper decree that is added to Church doctrine’s equivalent of the Constitution. The last one was in 1950 with the Assumption of Mary (ie. she ascended to Heaven).
The Church actually hires atheists for investigations of Saints because it basically wants to avoid embarrassment, at least according to the priests who taught me about the process during 12 years of Catholic School. You don’t want to ever declare something a miracle and then get caught with your pants down. So, the Church has an entire department of scientists (well paid ones) who exist to debunk miracles and exhaust any and all scientific possibilities before stating it is a miracle.
It would make a very interesting TV show I think since they get REALLY pissed at frauds and work to prosecute them whenever uncovered.
Just for thr record, the idea that something could be called a miracle if it can’t currently be explained is epistemologically AND scientifically incorrect. If something cannot be explained, that doesn’t mean you can just fill in the blanks with some unfalsifiable “explanation” or just rename the unknown — that would be trying to explain what is currently UNEXPLAINED. When something is unexplained, it’s just THAT — unexplained.
” What we call ‘magic’ is really just the science we don’t understand yet. “
There’s also the fact that even in the US, plenty of people have lost friends and in some cases even been disowned by family members (or worse in other countries) for coming out as an atheist. So while Becky might handle Joyce coming out as an atheist to her just fine, I don’t blame Joyce for being reluctant to do so just yet, because you never really know how a religious friend will react about it until you tell them.
I don’t think she’s morally wrong in what she says here, but it still feels like a mistake. She’ll have to tell Becky the truth eventually if they want to remain friends. This was a good opportunity to do so. And at any point she does so later on, this important moment between them will be revealed to be based on a lie. And she’s (but more likely “they’re”) also hiding the shakiness of their relationship. If Joyce can’t talk about these doubts with her about their shared history, they’re not as close anymore as they’re pretending to be.
In other words, she’s making things more complicated than they have to be.
OTOH, if she came here to comfort Becky on her mom’s birthday, shifting the focus to what’s definitely going to be an awkward conversation about her becoming an atheist isn’t really a great plan.
Seconded. I was wondering about that, since some of Becky’s dialogue comes off as her clever Joyce-needling. She does love to make Joyce uncomfortable; if that’s true in this case, then I suspect it’s not because she enjoys seeing her reaction, but because she’d rather get this elephant out of the room. Or, because she just wants to see if Joyce will put being a good friend first, instead of adhering to a narrow “I must not tell lies.”
Joyce has never been good at lying. Her poker face would lose badly at Go Fish.
I’m with Joyce on getting out of this one by any means. I wouldn’t be inclined to confess anything to someone who preemptively dismisses my troubles as ‘nothing’, even before factoring in the Not So Great experience that was the last time I even hinted at this particular ‘nothing’.
I mean, I don’t disagree with Not Telling Becky, but I think you’re being a bit harsh on her. She doesn’t call it “nothing” she calls it “nonsense”, and since she knows Joyce, I don’t read this as dismissive so much as an attempt at being reassuring: “I know that whatever’s going on in your head has turned into some Huge Thing, but I’m sure it’s actually not, it’s just you being you, and things are actually okay.”
As someone with anxiety issues myself, I am in no way saying this is the right way to approach it, but it’s an understandable one. (In my head I call it “ridiculous Daibhid brain stuff”, but I don’t think I’d react well to anyone else saying it.)
This is strangely familiar. My Grandma said a lot of the same things Joyce said albeit without quoting the Bible. It was after a eulogy she disagreed with where she said that the legless deceased would be skipping and running around heaven now that he got his legs back. She harumphed later in the car that you remain in the ground until you’re recalled. It’s a sad way to envision the afterlife and yet she was always so cheerful.
smh at Becky being controlling and abusive of Joyce by ignoring her saying she doesn’t want to talk about it and trying to pull an answer out.
It’s almost like social interaction other than at its worst excesses isn’t something that can be objectively quantified like it’s on a scale from Wholesome to Problematic, and the context of a relationship between two people significantly changes and alters how they approach each other and what constitutes their limits for what is or isn’t an appropriate way to act around them.
Careful, that sounds like you’re suggesting interpersonal communication can be complex and perhaps even tricky for outside parties to judge in the moment.
Anyway this thought occurred to me while I was walking my dog last night:
Dumbing of Age will end with Joe and Joyce getting married, and Danny is there and he’s in a poly triad with Sal and Sayid. I will accept zero criticism of this statement that is definitely happening.
“hey i don’t think your dead mom’s in heaven because heavens not real. Man that’s a load off my chest, anyway back to dealing with your still fresh grief”
Nah dude that’s called being a shitty friend. Time and place, this is not it.
Also she gets to decide when she feels ready to come out with it
I mean Joyce straight up said she was trying to be sensitive and Becky said “nope”. And honestly I think she could use the distraction. Agree to disagree I guess.
Of course, there is the frankly HUGE assumption that Paulus the Roman wasn’t just an attention whore, trading in on Jesus’ fame, pulling ideas out of his ass to try and impress his audience.
Joyce has said BOTH Dorothy and Becky are her best friends, refuses to rank one over the other, and clearly loves them both. Becky’s also been trying to suppress the MASSIVE MOUNTAINS OF TRAUMA that have been the last year of her life, which means we’re maybe not seeing her at her best friending skills. Especially when she’s extremely insecure about Dorothy as Joyce’s new best friend and the possibility she might supplant Becky (irrational, but traumatized 18-year-old who lost both her parents in fairly sudden ways, and their entire community to boot.)
And while sometimes, Dorothy pushing Joyce out of her comfort zone or challenging her is needed, sometimes it just comes off as kinda insensitive. (For instance, while Joyce DOES eventually need to address some of her shame and fear about her own sexuality, given how much of it’s tied up in trauma from their upbringing or, y’know, the recent sexual assault, I don’t think that’s one that can be handled quickly or without some kind of outside help.)
Comforting a grieving religious friend is an inappropriate time to announce one’s apostasy. Maybe there’s a worse time, but I can’t think of it. Like if you’re going to a funeral, it’s a good idea to prepare comforting things to say (and respond with) that are areligious without being irreligious.
“That’s comforting,” would be a better response than, “yup, she definitely is in heaven” and also, “well, actually, the afterlife is probably just imaginary.”
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DANGIT Joyce’s contrarian desire to be “right” at any cost, we had a moment D=(
Eh, she’s just re-purposing that Biblical knowledge that’s still floating around in her brain after years of indoctrination (and will probably stay floating around for a very long time).
I’ll say, that was a nice save, Joyce.
Yeah, I don’t think she’s trying to be right, she’s just trying to avoid a difficult conversation.
Considering how many more quick saves she’ll have to make like this without displaying anxiety that would be a dead give away, depending on how desperate she is, she could take beta-blockers (herbal or otherwise) to block the symptoms. All depends on whether she would think the costs would outweigh the benefits though.
I mean, surely common beta-blockers and roots with those properties were fine in her community?
I feel like beta-blockers are old enough to be still “permitted” in that brand of Chistianity (AFAIK, it’s more like Latter Day Saints who would frown on them?)
Yet Joyce still wouldn’t know about them because if she still has trouble lying, she hasn’t started the “getting things done though chemicals” phase of college yet. Hell, I’m even sure she hasn’t heard of Chemical Romances, let alone of experimenting with them.
Fascinating, I always thought that Chemical Romance was just the name of a band!
I’m not the one for Romantic relationships (I’d be willing to try out the classical kind though), but I already appreciate the chemicals all around us that have made the modern world we know and love!
But in the more colloquial sense of the word, I definitely don’t think that any of the substances I’d be willing to try count as “hard chemicals”.
Actually, I originally brought up the possibility of Joyce using Beta Blockers to prevent Becky from finding her out because the strategy was mentioned in Cinema Summary‘s video about Death Note 2.
Joyce also hasn’t heard of My Chemical Romance
It doesn’t sound like she’s against medication.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/02-this-is-the-way-that-we-love/hobble/
She might just be avoidant of medical procedures due to a needle phobia or something like that. (Remember the “needles in my eyes” comment at the optometrist? Or how well she took the flu shot way back wgen?)
Wow, her look was surprisingly flamboyant in that strip.
Evidently, it might very well be possible that she may try taking something, if not beta-blockers then cough-syrup or something like it to hide her new beliefs from Becky (especially considering that the likely closet blow-out is more likely to happen in sister Christian).
By the way, I only mentioned cough syrup as an example of something people try for this purpose. I definitely would NOT recommend it, because in some people it can actually lead to opium addiction.
I’m not sure it was a save. I think Becky’s suspected something is up for a while, and I think it’s all about to come crashing down.
Maybe, but this isn’t the day Becky wants things to come crashing down. It’s a very Joyce thing to say and that’s good enough for her conscious mind for now.
Oh, trust me, the indoctrinated information sticks around … probably for the rest of her life in some form or another. I left The Church fifteen years ago, and can still pull those random data to the fore if the situation calls for it. She’s been gone for, what, a couple of months? The fact that she can give that answer isn’t surprising AT ALL.
Is she actually gone yet though? I think Becky would have noticed if Joyce has stopped attending church. I think she’s Left The Church, but not left church yet, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that’s been kind of bugging me too. We haven’t seen her go since the trip with Jacob. The week after that we saw her skip. Conveniently Becky had to campaign. That was the last Sunday before the timeskip.
It feels right that she hasn’t gone since, but I can’t imagine she’s been able to pull that off without letting Becky know. I think she must have been going. Likely we’ll see when we get to Sunday.
I still have Biblical knowledge in my brain from my comic book Bible I had as a kid (that was more for adolescents and I was maybe 8, but I was an advanced reader). I still sometimes think of Bible stories that demonstrate a life principle I want to make a point about sometimes, even though I don’t believe in the theology anymore. And I see it as valuable knowledge in terms of humanities/anthropology, like, I have knowledge of a particular culture’s mythology/cosmology. Although it’s emic knowledge, not etic, but it enhances the etic knowledge I have since gained about Christianity’s history.
Can you give me an example of one such principle you hold, and the story which demonstrates it?
Jesus’ sermons in the gospels have quite a few decent bits. The Good Samaritan for instance. Basically just be nice to each other.
The Old Testament less so. “Walking around a city once a day for 6 days then 7 times on the 7th day will cause the walls to fall down” seems unlikely to work and also not that useful in day to day life.
“If it rains really hard build a boat and get two of every creature on board to repopulate the planet” would require an incredibly large boat, and lead to rather more inbreeding than would likely be healthy for the new population.
Thanks for sharing, but I was kind of specifically asking Meagan, but it’s alright.
The Amish are the only Christian group I know about that’s totally fine with inbreeding, but I’m honestly not surprised that the people who wrote the Bible had no concept of modern genetics or biology (especially not vaccines or blood transfusions).
Side thought, do you think there’s any value to the part of the passover story where Yahweh takes away the Pharaoh’s free will to prevent him from liberating the Israelites (Exodus 4:21)?
I’m just asking because, I actually used to celebrate passover, but when I read this part I felt really queasy every time I participated.
That’s probably because there are *reasons* we leave the faith our parents attempted to give us. When we encounter those reasons, we feel uncomfortable. Also, when we encounter anything that talks about not leaving the faith, directly or indirectly, we tend to feel uncomfortable. The latter tends to fade over time, the former does not.
Passover includes the latter sort of material. Depending on why exactly you left your parents’ faith, it might also contain the former sort of material.
Literally, no. But historically, it looks like the sort of thing that is probably an interesting artifact of the transition of Jewish culture from veneration of a patron deity to true monotheism. I’d bet that originally the story had the Pharaoh’s gods hardening his heart, but at some point it was edited to remove all mentions of those gods existing or having real power.
So the story is nowhere near as bad as many people believe it to be, if you’re willing to discard thousands of years of religious dogma and the very concept of monotheism.
Maybe. It’s not really all that different from a lot of the rest of the Hebrew Bible though – There’s a lot of “Israel was bad so God made a foreign nation attack and conquer them” stuff going on there.
It’s definitely tied to the shift from a patron deity, but I’m not sure it’s linked to Pharoah’s gods hardening his heart, but just to the God of Abraham only being concerned with his people. Even as he shifted to the only God, that remained. Other peoples were only important as they were used by God to either punish Israel or deliver them from punishment.
The last time Joyce hinted that she was losing her faith, Becky didn’t react all that great. I get trying to avoid this.
Huh? No? She just doesn’t want to tell Becky she’s an atheist yet
I had words for what I meant, but I guess those weren’t them =p
…oh. Oh, no.
If this is going where I think this is going, then this is the worst possible day for what I think is about to happen.
…I don’t think Becky actually bought it. I think she’s going to keep prodding.
I think this will be the conversation where Becky figures out the truth about what Joyce now believes, and it’s going to hurt.
I can’t tell if Becky bought it, or if she still suspects that Joyce no longer believes in any of it. But I’m kinda hoping she won’t keep prodding for now.
I’m afraid you’re absolutely right, and the results will be tragic…they will go to McDonald’s for ice cream, only to discover that the machine is down today.
Nah, I’m just joshing you! It’s McDonald’s, the ice cream machine is down every day.
If we don’t get serious about climate change, the few days that they AREN’T broken are only gonna get fewer and further between.
Just in case, I recommend looking into Svalbard real estate.
I thought it was A Thing that the machines don’t break, they just require an intensive and hasslesome cleaning procedure every couple of hours, and if the store is too busy or the staff can’t be bothered they just proclaim it broken to get out of doing it?
https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/
The worst horror stories are the ones that have a basis indistinguishable from reality, which is to say “I am a wuss that eschews a whole genre because I’m easily scared”. Anyway, I wish I hadn’t clicked on this at 2 am |DD
The maintenance cleaning is done once a fortnight, but if they half-assed it it’ll break down regularly during busy periods. What mostly happens is the ice cream mix is being used and refilled so rapidly that cooling process can’t keep up. If the mix comes out it’s not food safe and really runny.
TBF, the machines are deliberately badly designed because the company that makes them have a monopoly on repair technicians.
Yeah, there’s a whole little documentary about this on YouTube. It’s a total racket
So what I’m hearing is that there’s a chance Bonnie will show up as a zombie.
In this case, I think the appropriate term is revenant.
Ghoul… get your undead straight,
Ghouls are associated with graveyards (fair) and the consumption of human flesh (communion wafers) and the macabre (same)… so maybe.
Revenant, on the other hand, LITERALLY means “came back”, which is perfect both for someone resurrected and for the Second Coming itself.
Say, does anyone know of any clinically proven ways to increase cognitive bandwidth?
Delete all your social media apps.
Way ahead of you. In regard to social media’s effects, I’ve been ahead for YEARS.
Pretty sure comment sections are social media.
The biggest difference is that doom-scrolling is impossible.
Seriously, Facebook and Twitter are just like the endless staircase from Super Mario 64.
Use more brain
Decrease ping time.
(ie, think longer before speaking or acting)
Grah! I MEANT INCREASE PING TIME! I posted before I proofed!
…. er, I mean, that was me cleverly giving an example of the principle in action.
Well done.
Fascinating suggestion. Care to list the
SAUCEsource?I remember reading something about a sustained low voltage electrical current being sent into the base of the skull, and how it had the effect of greatly increasing the speed at which a new language was learned, but I can’t seem to find anything else on it right now, and god knows what side effects that’d have.
I’d like to see the source for that too. But chances are, it may have been misconstrued by a secondary source that left out essential context.
Or it was one sketchy study that no one has been able to replicate.
Yeah, generally you only really want to trust the double-blind ones, and if you can “afford” it, ones with methods that prevent p-hacking.
Oh, and REPLICATABILITY is ALWAYS needed for worthwhile scientific principles.
https://www.inverse.com/innovation/neural-stimulation-language-device
Credibility low, but not zero. There are probably some credible justifications for such an effect, but the magnitude is likely to be pretty minimal.
age backwards.
Nootropics? ADHD meds if you haven’t got ADHD. (If you DO have it, tho, all it causes is that SUDDENLY YOU’RE ABLE TO FOCUS. No cool superpowers but hey, I get to finally strike some shit from my list when I couldn’t, so.)
… Does this mean psilocybe is a hardware upgrade?
I’ve heard of Adderal, but I think the side effects of that are so dangerous that I’d only ever use them in a life-threatening, EMERGENCY situation.
Besides, if Family Guy is right about anything, that stuff doesn’t make you have good ideas as much as it just makes you have A LOT of ideas.
Given my experience researching alleged “nootropics”, they generally fall into one of three categories:
1. Boring, mundane stuff that’s already seen common usage (caffeine, etc.).
2. Vitamins and mineral supplements that don’t help your brain in any way other then prevent it from suffering due to malnutrition. If you’re diet isn’t horribly unbalanced (not including vitamin-enriched cereal), you probably shouldn’t bother. (B12, Niacin, etc.)
3. Dangerous, illegal drugs that are banned for a good reason (Cocaine, Methamphetamine, etc.)
Not to say that I wouldn’t microdose something like mushrooms or LSD like once in a great while, albeit under highly controlled circumstances and very limited dosages. Silicon Valley workers actually microdose on one occasion to aid in problem-solving, although the clinically verified benefits of the practice are as of yet unclear (mostly just because those drugs being illegal makes them MUCH harder to study).
I was really after things like specific mental or physical exercises that build cognitive bandwidth the same way specific exercises specifically make your legs stronger or faster).
But thanks for sharing, I very much do appreciate that!
I’ve seen a lot of things that aren’t actually psychoactive to be purported as Nootropics, that much is true. But there’s newer stuff coming out all the time. But for example, there’s Modafinil – A weird little med that isn’t really a stimulant, because it doesn’t mess with your level of dopamine. It’s a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, which means that whatever dopamine you have, you have it for longer. Good for you on shunning Adderall and the rest though, because us ADHD-havers have enough trouble getting a doctor to believe us without all the Law and Engineering students who want to cram for an exam.
I’d like to have those specific mental or physical exercises that build cognitive bandwidth as well if you get some tips other than “do meditation” (I cannot, my brain doesn’t shut up and it’s not even saying anything useful). But in case yours has the ability to? Yeah, most def meditation in that case, with yoga as an aid if you can.
Learning another language is also always good for those neural pathways, but even more if you get to the point you can use it creatively. Interestingly enough, “learning an instrument” also counts (and music is math you can perceive with your senses), but so do computer languages as long as you’re building new things with it.
*”For example, modafinil” but without the “but”.
(For clarification. Man I hate that Disqus doesn’t let me edit, do you see how good is my focus, ay dios mío.)
Those law and engineering students are definitely hurting themselves too by using Adderal, cause it can REALLY fuck you up unless you know what you’re down to the finest physiological and pharmacologcal details (generally you use medication like this only as prescribed by a doctor, for very good reasons). Not to say that even over-the-counter meds like Benedril can’t also fuck you up, but anyway…
Regarding meditation, due to my anxiety condition and current circumstances, I’m one of the unfortunate many who can’t even get CLOSE to such a state without cannabis. But when I do, it’s SO releaving… Sometimes when I take a little bit of dark chocolate with the stuff, I get an incredibly insightful explosion of cognitive power, but I’m not sure if that would be useful in concrete problem-solving like engineering and such (but maybe for digital art?) it’s more like a boost for abstract, even philosophical thinking in particular; even then, I don’t know how to intentionally recreate that effect, at least for now.
As for solving problems in programming, I’ll have to try that out!!! Perhaps certain games requiring engineering-related and open-ended problem-solving can also have that effect? Games like Factorio, Rim-World, and Don’t Starve come to mind.
When it comes to MacGyver-style, creative as hell problem solving in video games, Ambiguous Amphibian is an incredible inspiration to me.
But seeing that I’m gonna have to learn python for lots of physics jobs, I’m probably gonna work on programming next!
By the way, care to tell me the source that recommended programming puzzles as a nootropic exercise?
What most people don’t know is Adderal is medically pure meth. in small doses it helps people focus, which is critical for some neuro-divergent people. It also prevents the dental issues that come with home-made meth.
It’s actually a precursor to meth — not quite the same substance, but still very dangerous.
look it’s a suggestion that belongs on the list and isn’t here yet, but tbh kinda boring.
Meditation/mindfulness exercises. do the parasympathetic nervous system activation deep breathing, do the slow the brain down, do the ‘noting’ exercises, take the time, whateva. Do it while you clean or run if the ~standard~ lotus sit or yoga don’t do it for you.
Also look for ‘working memory’ as a common term that means a similar thing to ‘cognitive bandwidth’- how many things can you keep in mind at once. there are working memory exercises that exist.
There are some (muggle) mushrooms that have neuroactive properties with some notable research behind them. lions mane mushroom is one, that a few people i respect as sensible and science-minded have considered worth experimenting with, tho it’s not something they’d stake much on. just cos they’ve got time and some spare cash.
oh, fuk yeah,learn a language/music are crazy good for your brain. A second language adds like 1-2 years of function to a brain with neurodegeneration, eg alzheimers/dementia. The brain still degenerates- the additional language doesn’t slow that down. It’s just that what’s LEFT of the brain has enough capacity to keep being a brain for longer. Wild. like. like if your feet were so dextrous your hands could degrade and you wouldn’t eve necessarily notice cos your feet can take on full hand duties.
That’s good too!
A year or two ago, I came across a Japanese legend where Samurai would master a breathing technique that makes it so that they never run out of stamina. Not that I think it’s an instant ticket to superpowers or anything, but I’ve actually been practicing my breathing whenever I could since then to see if I could get any such beneficial effects. Thus far, I HAVE gotten better as blowing up balloons, but nothing else other than that.
Anyway, thanks for sharing, I appreciate it!
Being able to focus, my Heavens, that sounds like Utopia. I would love to go there some day.
<a href = "http://pvz.jiangnangame.com/pvztr/audio/Bgm_Forest_Fight_JX.mp3"Me too.
Me too.
If your ADHD is bad enough the idea of the best-case scenario from meds sounds like a fucking superpower. “You can focus?? AT WILL?! You can actually DO STUFF without getting distracted after half a second and forgetting what you were doing completely??? You can- you can remember important stuff? Forget flying, that sounds phenomenal!”
…Yes I am struggling with my own ADHD, was that obvious?
I know of clinically proven ways to slow down age-related loss of cognitive bandwidth, which, if my old lady brain recalls correctly, boil down to:
* Allow for defragging and virus checking (get more than 7 hours of sleep per night)
* Keep the CPU free of dust and corrosion (avoid consuming things that cause internal discomfort because that’s a sign of inflammation which can prompt inflammation in other tissues including your brain; practice good dental hygiene and have all dental problems seen to promptly because not doing so is a real good way to get system-wide inflammation going; visit your doctor at the first sign of something not right Down There because bladder infections ditto)
* Delete stuff that’s mucking up your system (drink your water or whatever you can get down that doesn’t harm you, and exercise at least a little bit to improve circulation; these will help you clean crap out of your circulatory system before it heads for your brain; also, go easy on stuff that clogs arteries because the clogs can throw off bits that go up into the vessels of the brain and cause strokes)
* Know when to call I.T. (learn the signs of mini-strokes and other warning signals for bad brain stuff, because if you have them seen to immediately, the effects may be less bad)
Thank you TREMENDOUSLY for this public service!!!
You have no idea how grateful I am to see people here doing things like this!!!
And here I thought Joyce might actually get some good advice from her friend…
poor Joyce
I can’t feel bad for her on this one. After everything Becky and she have been through Joyce should trust Becky and their friendship more than this.
“should” is the most treacherous word in English. first-person usage summarizing positional evaluation is the only safe way to handle that shit, AFAIK. ymmv, dyodd, etc.
Becky has many reasons to trust Joyce and their friendship, many times that she can look at and think ‘Joyce has my back forever’. I don’t necessarily think Joyce has that from Becky, if only because Joyce has never, to my memory, gone to Becky with her troubles. She goes to Sarah, to Dorothy, even to Joe. Not Becky. They love each other, but there’s a definite fear and/or lack of trust on Joyce’s part, I feel, in that unwillingness to confide.
That’s because Becky hasn’t been available and in this situation is the subject of Joyce’s anxiety. But we’ve only witnessed a very brief timeframe of these characters. Joyce has known Becky for years. Much longer than any of her current relationships. I’d be surprised if she’s never trusted or confided in her. I think this is just the one very specific circumstance that makes her nervous.
Absolutely not. She is not by any means required to just Becky about this. Joyce doesn’t have to confide in ANYONE she doesn’t feel safe coming out to, for any reason. If Becky can’t understand that and feels genuinely wounded enough to hold that against Joyce? Then honestly, Joyce is perfectly in the right to be wary of trusting her.
I HOPE Becky doesn’t react badly. But I’m honestly not fully convinced that she won’t. Which is probably how Joyce feels, and why she doesn’t want to talk about it yet.
It’s not just their friendship. It’s implied last time Joyce said suicides went to hell, not knowing Bonnie was a suicide. Saying “Your mom’s gone. God’s a lie they fed us for 18 years” on the anniversary of her death might be worse than just “Doctrine says…”
I don’t disagree that she should let Becky know her situation … but today is not the day for that conversation. In fact not this week to be on the safe side.
Firstly, the last time Joyce implied to Becky that she was losing her faith Becky was not supportive.
Secondly there’s a time and a place and that is not when she’s trying to be supportive not just over the reminder of Becky’s mother’s passing but also the reminder of whatever awful thing(s) Joyce remembers saying.
People are allowed to take their time coming out of their closets, they aren’t assholes for not feeling ready to tell loved ones things.
“Why are the ‘Dead in Christ’ raised first?”
“Because they need a six-foot head start.”
Yeah, but weren’t they in cross and field?
They need to lift at least a stone first
Joyce’s desire to be sensitive vs her desire to be honest are fighting very brutally.
Smooth!
Honestly it is. Just the ability to reach out and grab something like that? I mean, I know she’s got it all memorised and such, but still. Damn, girl. Smoooooooooooooooooth.
Particularly since that’s not likely a verse (or at least a reading of the verse) that her church emphasized, since it doesn’t match their theology.
I used to be an Adventist and they used to REALLY emphasize that, so it’s funny what parts of the bible you know well depending on what your denomination is. This would have come to my mind right away even though I’ve been an atheist for like 20 years now
But the Adventists, if I understand correctly, do believe what Joyce describes here – the dead remaining dead until some future day of resurrection, rather than souls going and living in heaven (or hell) upon death, which is what Joyce’s brand of fundamentalism believes. So it’s natural they’d emphasize this passage, but strange that Joyce would.
Being unable to be honest with your friend sucks, but I get if Joyce isn’t ready yet. Beyond that, the last time they argued theology, it got nasty, but that may have been more that Joyce was being dismissive with waving off Becky’s concerns about premarital sex that pissed Becky off, rather than an indication Becky is going to lash out at Joyce for leaving Christianity.
I suspect that Becky going to ‘I’ve been at odds with the church for way longer and I still have faith’ in that discussion, regardless of Joyce’s tone then, doesn’t suggest much good. It’s still true, Becky’s situation’s gotten even worse since then, Becky’s clearly not in a great headspace today if she does keep pushing, and absolutely none of that changes the fact that Becky’s belief in God was always more flexible than Joyce’s, which was primarily a belief in authority (specifically, the adults in their lives.) On some level, I don’t think Becky gets that difference yet, and I could see her taking it badly still. (Especially now.)
Oddly, Becky’s faith seems to have been much deeper.
Joyce wanted structure, authority, rigidity, and bland food. God was never really important.
Becky wants deep and abiding CHAOS that comes from standing up to the order that is hypocritcal and self-righteous.
Oh, God was important. God was watching, and God was above all JUDGING and therefore life must be lived in constant fear of observation.
It’s just that under that fear there wasn’t actually any trust, it was all reflexive avoidance of punishment. Once she started thinking about the concept of a God who wasn’t a complete authoritarian, that the adults who taught them might be WRONG and she’d have to think about what God meant TO HER, it all fell apart.
I don’t think it was fear, exactly. Fear might have been a part of it, but a bigger part of it was relationship and community. When the community proved toxic and the relationship proved one-sided, that’s when Joyce started questioning.
I have trouble buying this. I know Becky’s last reaction to even a shallow inkling of this subject was bad but Joyce was being rather dismissive and pissy herself. I think they both deserve more credit for the friendship they have. Becky came to Joyce first at the most vulnerable time in her life and shared her truth about herself. Losing faith isn’t the same as coming out but it still shares a similar emotional vulnerability. I think it would be pretty hypocritical for Becky to judge Joyce for not having strong enough faith. I do think she’ll be very pissed Joyce has lied to her multiple times now over this.
Hypocritical, maybe, but I think Joyce’s atheism will hit Becky right in her insecurities and trauma – especially because, yes, she lied about it. Joyce still being Christian was something Becky had over Dorothy in her one-sided rivalry for Ultimate Best Frienddom, and that’s a thing because Joyce is effectively the ONLY THING Becky still has from their old lives. (There is Hank and Jocelyne, but they are of course Becky’s through Joyce.) Becky’s demonstrated before that her faith was more flexible and she doesn’t get why Joyce would need to reject evolution to still believe in original sin, or have the same exact juice boxes for communion to be communion, or why Joyce’s response post-Becky coming out was to find interpretations of scripture that say gayness was actually okay. (In some of these it actually upset Becky she was doing this.)
If Joyce is an atheist, then that’s one of the last few tethers to their old life gone. It’s Joyce without something that’s long been her defining quality. And it’s a Joyce that has another thing in common with her shiny new best friend, and maybe she doesn’t need Becky anymore. It’s not rational, and it’s not pretty, and I guarantee it won’t be permanent, but there are plenty of reasons for Becky to struggle with this because she didn’t want college to change Joyce THAT MUCH.
Losing faith IS like coming out though. Coming out as an atheist to a religious family or community is often almost just as nervewracking, fraught, and potentially dangerous as coming out as queer. People get kicked out and disowned for coming out as atheists.
There is not necessarily the same degree of societal persecution and systemic oppression towards atheists (AT LEAST IN MOST OF THE US, THIS IS NOT THE CASE FOR MANY OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD) as there is for queer people, but that doesn’t make the personal and social repercussions any less devastating.
Atheists are literally more distrusted than any other major religious group in the US, and they’re distrusted about as much as rapists. Source:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22059841/
So there’s a lot of stigma around atheism. Joyce’s trepidation is warranted.
It’s so weird to see this sort of thing, have a church always in view from every street corner in town, and then almost never run into the freaks that would have a problem with me for not sharing their religion. Like, I don’t disbelieve it, considering the Way this shithole country is, it just somehow never comes up, which I know is probably just luck.
Straight up. I live in a conservative deeply homophobic christian country and I’ve received worse reactions and straight up harassment for coming out as an atheist than i have for coming out as bisexual
It’s even worse than that in many places. There are a handful of U.S. States, and even whole COUNTRIES on this planet that yearn to KILL us on first notice.
All of this discrimination and violence, not for being the wrong skin color, not for harming or harassing a single person, but for not believing in something for which we have no evidence.
I am so sorry you had to go through all that zee!
So much for “religious freedom”….
Thanks wagstaff, I’m just waiting for the day i can move to a more religiously apathetic country
We got a bit of that with Becky interpreting Dina’s behavior through her very, very narrow worldview.
Becky’s got a lot of trauma that she just in noooooooooooot dealing with.
Becky’s concerning me too, especially given in this strip she’s being invasive regarding Joyce, although not necessarily maliciously, but still kind of a bad habit she picked up from her group that she needs to drop.
” When one lays down with dogs, one gets up with fleas. “
— Benjamin Franklin
She’s talking with a close friend. People who are close, within limits, get to be invasive. It’s a thing and part of what produces closeness.
There is an important difference between invasion and bonding, which Reltzik kindly pointed out just a few pages down:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/watchin/#comment-1564575
That’s close to my read. I think Becky was upset at the deep nihilism that Joyce was expressing.
Naaaah. They weren’t going to have a moment and last time Joyce demonstrated any lapsing on her faith Becky had A Reaction. This wasn’t going to go over well. I feel like it might’ve been easier for Joyce to accept someone she deeply loved is a lesbian than it’d be for Becky to understand Joyce has embraced atheism in any given case… But specially on such a day.
Of course, Drama Rules stay that this Chekov Gun will go off in the worst possible moment tho. So while that was a good save, the clock is ticking.
Maybe it’ll go off in the next arc, Sister Christian? The title would sure suggest that…
Willis has been known to play the long game with Chekov’s gun. I recall the party Joyce threw, inviting both Amber and Sal. How many years before that gun fired? In the Walkyverse, I recall the first newspaper with a picture of Head Alien. In DOA, Willis is revisiting the themes of the Walkyverse but with a more modern and nuanced sensibility and with much more room for the plot and character development to breath. But I am first and foremost an SF fan and this is why the forbidden rooms at the end of the hall give me hope. Chekov’s gun. First glimpse.
That and the confidence that come from the conviction that it is well nigh impossible for Willis to never draw an action fight scene again.
That seems to be a really rotten deal.
You rise again and then BAM! – You’re smack in the middle of the freakin’ Armageddon!
They could at least chosen a better movie.
They also could’ve chosen worse. Imagine coming back in the middle of The Room.
Oh hi Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
This is the perfect contextual joke.
Thessalonians?
Wait, I thought Christ never said anything about the end days or some shit or-
Wait wasn’t Paul the mofo that never met Jesus?
Lotsa gospels to pick around, and yet the Council of Nicaea picks the one fucker’s that’s obviously Self-Insert Fanfic. Way to go, Emperor Constantine.
(It was all on purpose because what he wanted when converting the Roman Empire to Christianism, calling for the church to say what was (biblical) canon and what wasn’t, was over-all to bring order to his lands. It makes sense that Paul, the mofo who thinks love is fear and women should be subservient to their husbands, would be picked over idk. The Book of Enoch.)
The Council of Nicaea didn’t pick the gospels, or the biblical canon in general.
That’s just a common myth, they didn’t even talk about it.
The actual happened and evolved over a few centuries rather than as a single event.
Paul didn’t write a gospel so I don’t know what you’re talking about here.
Beyond that, it’s not like Paul was some obscure nobody that wrote some nonsense that Constantine dredged up centuries later. Paul wasn’t a disciple and never met Jesus, but once he converted he was apparently the main driver of spreading Christianity to the gentiles. He had enormous influence on the religion long before Constantine. It’s quite possible that without him it would have remained an obscure Jewish sect.
The genuine Pauline letters are also the oldest parts of the New Testament and give us a lot of insight into what was happening in those early days. (Note as well that First Timothy – which is where much of the “women should be silent” stuff comes from is generally considered by scholars not to be written by Paul, but to date from a later time.)
Yeah, Paul never met him. He was going around after the fact killing the followers of Jesus and then had a Sudden Revelation on the road. You know, where no one else could see and verify his story. Suddenly he’s telling people that they should believe him and that he knows what Jesus taught better than anyone else ever, and you should definitely ignore what James says – you know, Jesus’ brother.
Paul also ended at least one of the Epistles with basically “Hey, the church members in that other city have been much better than you at sending donations for the building of a Temple, and you should really get the lead out if you want to not disappoint Jesus.”
Which reminds me very much of someone, say, asking for campaign donations and/or legal fees from their constituents that never seem to quite get used for the intended purpose.
I’ve taken to saying that I really like Yeshua ben Yusup, the revolutionary philosopher, and I kinda hate Jesus Christ, the Perfect Person/God. Both are preferable to Paul.
Hard to say which is really preferable, since Christianity as it has come down to us is heavily influenced by Paul. By the time the Gospels were written, Christianity was largely Pauline. What we know of Yeshua ben Yusup is all filtered through writings influenced by Paul. Same with Jesus Christ, the Perfect Person/God.
(And some of what Paul “wrote” likely wasn’t written by Paul either, so our impression of Paul might well not be correct.)
As for James, while he (likely?) was the brother of Jesus, he probably wasn’t a disciple or a follower of Jesus until after his death. How much he knew of Jesus’s teachings first hand isn’t clear. He only appears as a leader in the Jerusalem based Jesus movement later on and seems to have been part of the faction that considered it more of reform Judaism than a new religion.
D– ing-dong, Joyce, tell her the truth.
I would be very surprised if Joyce did that willingly, personally. The last time she even edged in the direction of ‘this stuff isn’t real, you know’ Becky fully bit her head off. It was a bad fight. Add to that, look how Becky treats the only openly atheist person in her orbit who isn’t her girlfriend, Dorothy: endless, often verging on vicious, torment. Emphatic insistence on her ‘enemy’ status. Et cetera.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Joyce feels her newfound atheism would cause her to not only lose Becky’s friendship, but gain her antipathy.
Which truth though? It seems the community here is kinda split on what exactly Joyce is thinking of. is it either a) I’m atheist now, so Heaven doesn’t exist, or b) Church dogma says suicide victims go to Hell? (Old old readers of IW might know what I’m talking about…) I’m pretty sure the latter would be definitely a “Big Ugly Possibly-Friendship-Ending Fight” should Joyce bring it up, so it might definitely be for the best if Joyce just kept this one to herself.
Oh, sweetie, I get it not being ready. That said, this could become a Thing if she keeps it in too long so I am definitely anxious how this’ll shake out.
Much easier being honest? Maybe to some.
But it’s also a lot easier to comfort your friend and give theme time to do as they need to before addressing a topic that might be the end of your friendship.
Of course, if this series of panels is any indication (and it might not be, I dunno, I can’t read into things that well), said friend might more understanding of her friend’s internal struggle.
it says what
that one ep of american dad makes more sense now
Know of any cartoons or media that also mention the Giant Cube of Gold that’s supposed to be “heaven” or something?
i dont think so sorry 😔 most of my family is pretty christian and ive NEVER heard of this i just think its funny
It’s actually in the Book of Revelations (or at least, most translations of it).
I don’t know what’s funnier — the Giant Golden Cube, or an alien emperor throwing alien souls into Hawaii’s volcanos and blowing them up with nuclear weapons!
Just as I start to have some some sympathy fir Becky she goes ahead and wipes it all out
Yeah how dare she *checks notes* ask why her friend is acting off
Lets see now.
Sensitive situation for all involved, check.
Emotional situation where it is hard to “deny” Beckys demand, check.
Ignoring Joyces obvious discomfort, check.
Demanding information thereby ignoring boundaries again, check.
Forcing Joyce into a lie, check.
Not acting on the basis of information she doesn’t have.
Dude you take this stuff way too seriously. This is the equivalent to “dude you’re acting weird, what’s wrong? No seriously, tell me what’s wrong”
This is a normal thing normal friends do. Relax.
Its interesting though as to what some people take seriously and what others think isn’t.
Joyce is gonna make an excellent lawyer.
I find it interesting that Becky probably would be very irritated with Joyce over this. Because Becky holds it as a point of pride she kept her faith in great adversity while Joyce’s loss of it is not related to adversity at all. It wasn’t her parents betrayal or hypocrisy that broke her, it was her lack of belief in the supernatural.
This was a long night of the soul and a triumph for Becky while Joyce just doesn’t believe in her prophetic dreams.
Soul sleep. Joyce talks about it like she’s never heard of it; how common is soul sleep among mainline Protestants, exactly?
Frankly, nonexistent, outside of extreme circles. Almost everyone believes in Heaven as the final resting place other than Jehova’s witnesses.
Huh… I always thought it was just Hell that the Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t believe in.
I listened to the entire spiel out of politeness. They explained Heaven was real but only for God.
Honestly how many of you reading this actually listen to Jehovah’s Witnesses’ whole door-to-door sermons?
And just a side question, how many of you, if any, don’t think they qualify as “Christians”? I’ve heard people say this sometimes, but I don’t know why.
To stack onto this, how many have actually encountered the infamous JW door-knocking? We have a building of theirs on the edge of my town, but I’ve never seen a single one and been aware of it.
It only happened to me twice in my entire life, they always come wearing very fancy black suits and a suitcase full of copies of their literature.
In hindsight, I regret both times not yet being prepared to discuss what and why they believe what they do, in particular because sexual abuse in that group is even WORSE than in the catholic church.
And that’s not even an over-generalization. The JW organization has bi-laws that seem almost deliberately designed to protect molesters within the group and punish victims (like the “Two-Witness” rule).
But I am still very grateful that, in recent years, the JW organization got what was coming to them when they had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars worth of settlements for sexual abuse lawsuits.
They came to my house once. It was Christmas. My grandfather opened the door and was very politely listening to them but it was over half and hour or so and we were waiting to open presents so my granny finally said ‘We’re busy’ and slammed the door.
There also might have been a couple when my brother and I were young but we weren’t to open the door when our parents weren’t home. We didn’t open the door the first time but they would not LEAVE. My brother opened the door the next time because he wanted to tell them to go but I yelled ‘NO’ and slammed the door. They gave up at that part.
I feel kind of bad for those JWs there, being forced to wait outside on TOP of having their personalies scooped out of them.
On the other hand, your Granny made a good choice that Christmas!
Seriously. We were in the middle of presents. EVERYBODY was tired of waiting. My grandfather is just a nearly endlessly patient man and would’ve let them talk all day if they wanted to.
This might be a pop myth, but I remember reading once that the whole thing about Jehovah’s Witnesses isn’t about converting you, it’s about teaching them that everyone outside of their circle is an asshole. If I tell someone off for knocking at my door to preach at me, I think that’s normal, but what’s it do to the preacher if every single person they come across tells them off?
That’s definitely part of cult practice, though obviously not one made clear to most of the members.
It’s even worse than that. They’re taught that the entire world is run by Satan, and that even by associating closely with outsiders, they are taking part in their “wicked work”. They’re a separatist group, and they teach their outsiders that they are living in the end-times, that everything around them is succumbing to the forces of the devil, and that the only way to salvation is to obey whatever the Watchtower Magazine tells then down to the letter.
Yeah, but specifically, they’re taught to go on missions with the stated intent of saving those wicked outsiders. The result of that supposed outreach often does more to convince them the outside is hostile than to actually convert anyone. At least in some cults, this is intentional. Done to further isolate members from the outside.
Compare to regular Christian missionary work, which has its own huge problems, but is actually aimed at winning converts. And grifting, but it’s all aimed at grifting.
It’s true that you might see them interacting with outsiders on a basic level just to try to convert them, but the group’s separatist policies place a very strict limit on these interactions.
That feeds into it though – their other interactions are limited but there are requirements for proselytizing. This means that most of their interactions will be adversarial and that serves to isolate them more than just not letting them interact at all would, since it means that when they do interact with outsiders, those outsiders will likely be hostile, giving them a false impression of what the outside world is like generally.
The house I lived in until I graduated high school had a Jehova’s Witness church down the street in reasonable walking distance. I can’t recall them ever doing the door-to-door thing. They seemed very closed off and private, and the only interaction that I had with them they were being pretty jerkish.
I don’t particularly have a good view of the JW, though. I had one coworker who was a JW who was really nice, but we had a family friend’s wife get kicked out of her family because she married out of the religion. She had to move to our state for a little while and try to integrate herself into a new JW church. It was really frustrating to watch because her husband DID want to become a JW and would attend meetings and read the scripture but they still treated him like an outsider.
I can’t understand how they expect their cult to gain new members if they do such drastic things.
Like Spencer mentioned, I get the impression it’s designed from the ground up to isolate members and essentially trick them into thinking everyone outside the group is an amoral jackass. From that angle, I can totally see why they’d be assholes themselves, because if they just expect hostility from outsiders as a matter of fact, they’ll always be on edge. It’s creepy.
We had a JW church on our block when I went to high school. We used to get their trainees all the time. My mother would tell them she was a Reformed Druid. That would usually get rid of them, or at least leave them very confused. If they asked about it, she would say that they worship oak trees, but don’t sacrifice virgins anymore.
I had a short conversation with one outside the immigration office after renewing my visa. They’re always hanging out by the bus stop handing out leaflets, presumably on the assumption that foreigners are more likely to feel isolated and as such are easier targets. Mormons are also bad for this, although they’re more into starting up conversations with strangers on the train, or on the street, or anywhere.
Neither tried to explain anything to me, just to invite me to whatever meetings they had. Which is kind of worse.
Joyce, ya really ought to have told Becky the truth awhile ago. I can understand not telling her today, but you should tell her tomorrow at the latest.
Becky’s asking about Joyce’s hesitation, but maybe not just for the reason Joyce hesitated. They would both be familiar with the idea that people who commit suicide go to hell. Joyce was worried she’d said something along those lines in the past year.
The thing about suicide going to Hell is I’m not sure what churches are supposed to believe it. Salvation by faith alone Fundamentalists would claim that she’s in Heaven because you’re saved by Jesus no matter what. Catholicism has it as a mortal sin but mortal sins aren’t damning automatically. Its just something you shouldn’t do (and mental illness is a automatic out according to the Catechism). So who believes suicides go to Hell other than television Christianity?
Hi, I was raised Catholic! In South America so maybe that’s not your experience of Catholicism, but basically… Yes, you don’t got to Hell automatically for #MortalSins (if you confess them and do the penance) – With the SOLE exception of suicide! To this day you won’t get a priest to bless a funeral if the departed did it so through suicide – Because if you committed suicide, that was literally the last thing you did. Created by god, raising your hand in violence against yourself, no confession, no extremeution, etc etc.
Also, just to be technical here: since while Bonnie died as a result of her suicide, I believe she didn’t die immediately. She spend some time in the hospital afterwards.
This would have given her time to repent and be forgiven under that Catholic paradigm. Not that their brand of fundamentalism works quite the same way of course.
The basic logic of suicide being damning because it’s a sin that you aren’t able to repent before you die may still hold.
My mother committed suicide. A few *rather liberal* Catholic priests assured me that she was in heaven, and seemed rather disdainful of the idea that she wasn’t. One even assured me that as long as my atheist sister lived a good life, she would go to heaven… but still asked me to try to invite her to church.
The original idea in Catholicism was that suicides automatically went to Hell, because they couldn’t receive confession, you know, on account of being dead. However, this is no longer an official belief by the Catholic church, with the new stance being that “one would not commit suicide if they were in their right mind, and someone with mental problems cannot be held responsible for sin, therefore suicide cannot be a mortal sin, because mortal sin requires that the doer have full knowledge of the sins gravity.”
Very glad to know the stance has shifted in places better than the rundown orchard between the sea and the mountain I inhabit. My auntie’s brother committed suicide two years ago and the priest fucked off without doing the funeral once he was told the man had hung himself. This happened right before the funeral service started, mind you – No fucks given.
Performing funeral rites for suicides changed in 1980 as a note.
Yep! I’m from Chile (under Peru, next to Argentina, can’t miss it), and older priests still adhere to several dogmas that have already deemed Not Cool by the Pope. Specially in rural areas, where they have the supreme reign over their congregation (by virtue of no other priests being around). So while I didn’t know that particular thing had being upturned, I’m utterly unsurprised as well.
Fundamentalists believe a lot of contradictory things, and not all of them believe the same contradictory things. “saved by Jesus no matter what” has a lot of exceptions, along the lines of “if they’d really been saved, they wouldn’t have done whatever sin”.
Even if it’s not something preached from the pulpit, damnation for suicide an idea they are familiar with, something Joyce could easily have been afraid she alluded to it during “the times I said probably some awful, tonedeaf things.” https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/spring/
Too everyone saying Joyce is doing wrong not being honest:
People should get to choose when, and to whom, they come out. Closets might be lies, and they might be unhealthy, but not being ready to come out of the closet isn’t morally wrong.
(Also, TECHNICALLY Joyce isn’t lying here.)
It’s true. Closets are very personal.
My total agreement as well. Privacy does not entail deception.
A+++ comment. Also, you don’t get out of the closet if you feel unsafe unless it’s in a burst of desperation that might as well be of a cornered cat or self-destructive impulses. Which Becky should know, as she only nuked her closet from orbit once she was away from her father and in one of them’ godless universities full of queer communists and whatever.
I must
confessadmit, I never thought of it in that context.Thank you.
I used to be in the “I must always tell the truth, no matter what,” boat, and you know what, after the fact I don’t think that’s always the best choice. The classic counterexample is “It’s ethical to lie to protect Jewish people from Nazis” (or disabled people, GLBTQIA+ people, etc. obviously), but despite hearing that counterexample and embracing that in my teens, I otherwise kinda held to this until after my first relationship. This was the one where I was excessively honest a number of times about things that only caused my girlfriend stress (e.g. about people I’d had crushes on), and was trying to answer questions like “But do you love me more than you loved that person back then?”, which I was legit unsure of. My solution at the time was eventually “Yes, I do,” and then making sure that was true by my actions. There, I told the truth. In that case, it was fine, and not a bad thing. Looking back, it was still a good relationship. But some of the other things I felt compelled to express, I told her for *my* benefit, so *I* could feel that I had done right and been entirely truthful (for a very broad interpretation of truthfulness), not because she had any reason to need to know them, and they only caused her all sorts of stress. I don’t think it was always the right thing to do.
In this strip, if Joyce *did* just come clean and say, “I’m sorry, I just don’t believe in any spiritual world or existence after death any more. I want to say that I believe that, because I still think that’s a comforting thought, but I can’t, truthfully,’ then that’s all for Joyce getting to tell the truth to her friend, no matter the consequences. That’s being kind of a shitty friend, here, bcause Becky’s the one in need.
It’s not like Joyce has empirical evidence that these things DON’T exist, or that ACTUALLY Becky’s mom was kidnapped by… uh… Sgt. Gramps, I guess, working in league with Asher’s grandpa? and they have to go save her? Since she lost her faith, if anything, she probably believes she *can’t* know if there’s anything (and, by Occam’s Razor, since that thing she spent her whole life making herself believe seems to have been bunk, all religion probably is). And Becky’s beliefs seem to be the decidedly positive kinds of religious/spiritual beliefs at this point, so it’s not like there’s any real reason for Joyce to *want* to convince her that this belief system is bad. And it’s seemingly giving Becky comfort. So, if Joyce tells the truth, then not only is she risking upsetting Becky and being an insensitive friend, if she thinks she might be convincing in her arguments, she might strip Becky of one of her main comforts, for the sake of “I must always tell the truth”. That seems like taking Kantian ideas too far, and ignoring the effects of those actions.
Yeah, seemingly unquestionable tenets like “don’t lie”, “don’t steal”, “treat others the way you want to be treated”, etc., aren’t really “moral absolutes” as many religious and traditions claim them to be. These secular rules of thumb actually work because they offer ideas on personal boundaries and personal bonding that help social species like humans coexist.
They are better off referred to as “moral rules of thumb” because, truth be told, they SHOULDN’T always be followed.For instance, lying can be a moral act when it prevents someone from being persecuted. Stealing a pair of car-keys from an abuser could prevent them from harming their targets, and would also be moral.
I also can’t believe Science Jesus cares what beliefs we may have about those who have passed from the physical realm, because there’s by definition there’s a dearth of evidence… so we might as well construct a most excellent story about what we want to see, and see if anyone’ll take us up on the suggestions. And, so long as we remember it’s a belief, we have not violated the Science Gospels. (Although Richard Dawkins is probably mad, but TBH he’s usually probably mad. Did he die? He’s probably extra-mad if he’s dead and sees people still ascribing agency to him. …The image of Richard Dawkins watching over us from the clouds, a la the Lion King, IS an especially good one, though.)
In short, I’m way into Becky’s Waterslides-of-Heaven idea. But I hope there’s a good Heavenly Snack Bar up there, too, and that the lines are just long enough to make the snacks taste extra good.
Richard Dawkins is still alive. OTOH, Christopher Hitchens died in 2011. Can we try making him mad instead?
If there’s an afterlife anything like what Christianity posits, and Hitchens is there, then he’s probably picking a fight with Someone.
Interesting, as lots of Christian, Jewish and Islamic zealots savored the idea that he was going to hell.
I’ve heard rumors about a video that depicts him going to hell, but I could never find it.
Hitchens was hilariously hired by the Vatican to provide a detailed report on why Mother Theresa should not be made a saint. He joked that it was weird to hire atheists and then found out that all saints usually had atheists hired to provide arguments because they don’t want to spoil the data by bias.
So apparently even the Vatican likes atheist views for evaluation.
I’ve heard that the Catholic Church attempts to maintain large political influence. Perhaps this is why they hire atheists?
I would see why they would do something like that, because the alternative, claims of infallibility, are extremely hazardous to work with, as their popes no doubt discovered long ago.
Papal infallibility was declared a formal doctrine in the 1800s — it didn’t mean everything the Pope uttered was absolutely unmistakable — only certain, rare pronouncements on faith got this status.
The reason for this rarity becomes clear when you consider what happens if any new infallible statement is found to contradict any old infallible statement. Infallibility allows for no refutation. EVERY single infallible statement made throughout history has to line up — one SINGLE contradiction, and the whole scheme falls apart.
Far from allowing religious leaders some wonderful freedom to say whatever they want and have it accepted as truth, infallibility walls them in, progressively limiting what they’re able to say. A wise pontiff will make as few officially infallible statements as possible during using reign.
In practice, however, religious leaders and especially ordinary people are not that careful. They claim to “just know” all the time. Fatal contradictions soon arise when their proportedly infallible testimonies don’t align with the proportedly infallible testimonies of others — which reveals that some of these people, if not ALL of these people, must be wrong.
Papal Infallibility is actually something that only gets invoked rarely. The Pontiff can be flawed in numerous ways but sometimes they make a super-special super-duper decree that is added to Church doctrine’s equivalent of the Constitution. The last one was in 1950 with the Assumption of Mary (ie. she ascended to Heaven).
The Church actually hires atheists for investigations of Saints because it basically wants to avoid embarrassment, at least according to the priests who taught me about the process during 12 years of Catholic School. You don’t want to ever declare something a miracle and then get caught with your pants down. So, the Church has an entire department of scientists (well paid ones) who exist to debunk miracles and exhaust any and all scientific possibilities before stating it is a miracle.
It would make a very interesting TV show I think since they get REALLY pissed at frauds and work to prosecute them whenever uncovered.
Just for thr record, the idea that something could be called a miracle if it can’t currently be explained is epistemologically AND scientifically incorrect. If something cannot be explained, that doesn’t mean you can just fill in the blanks with some unfalsifiable “explanation” or just rename the unknown — that would be trying to explain what is currently UNEXPLAINED. When something is unexplained, it’s just THAT — unexplained.
” What we call ‘magic’ is really just the science we don’t understand yet. “
Or maybe it was the work of God.
Which one?
There’s also the fact that even in the US, plenty of people have lost friends and in some cases even been disowned by family members (or worse in other countries) for coming out as an atheist. So while Becky might handle Joyce coming out as an atheist to her just fine, I don’t blame Joyce for being reluctant to do so just yet, because you never really know how a religious friend will react about it until you tell them.
I don’t think she’s morally wrong in what she says here, but it still feels like a mistake. She’ll have to tell Becky the truth eventually if they want to remain friends. This was a good opportunity to do so. And at any point she does so later on, this important moment between them will be revealed to be based on a lie. And she’s (but more likely “they’re”) also hiding the shakiness of their relationship. If Joyce can’t talk about these doubts with her about their shared history, they’re not as close anymore as they’re pretending to be.
In other words, she’s making things more complicated than they have to be.
OTOH, if she came here to comfort Becky on her mom’s birthday, shifting the focus to what’s definitely going to be an awkward conversation about her becoming an atheist isn’t really a great plan.
Becky is almost scaring in her sensibility about Joyce. Almost? Totally scaring!
This strip is well worth reading twice: once assuming that Becky knows Joyce is an atheist, and once assuming she doesn’t.
Seconded. I was wondering about that, since some of Becky’s dialogue comes off as her clever Joyce-needling. She does love to make Joyce uncomfortable; if that’s true in this case, then I suspect it’s not because she enjoys seeing her reaction, but because she’d rather get this elephant out of the room. Or, because she just wants to see if Joyce will put being a good friend first, instead of adhering to a narrow “I must not tell lies.”
Joyce has never been good at lying. Her poker face would lose badly at Go Fish.
I’m with Joyce on getting out of this one by any means. I wouldn’t be inclined to confess anything to someone who preemptively dismisses my troubles as ‘nothing’, even before factoring in the Not So Great experience that was the last time I even hinted at this particular ‘nothing’.
I mean, I don’t disagree with Not Telling Becky, but I think you’re being a bit harsh on her. She doesn’t call it “nothing” she calls it “nonsense”, and since she knows Joyce, I don’t read this as dismissive so much as an attempt at being reassuring: “I know that whatever’s going on in your head has turned into some Huge Thing, but I’m sure it’s actually not, it’s just you being you, and things are actually okay.”
As someone with anxiety issues myself, I am in no way saying this is the right way to approach it, but it’s an understandable one. (In my head I call it “ridiculous Daibhid brain stuff”, but I don’t think I’d react well to anyone else saying it.)
This is strangely familiar. My Grandma said a lot of the same things Joyce said albeit without quoting the Bible. It was after a eulogy she disagreed with where she said that the legless deceased would be skipping and running around heaven now that he got his legs back. She harumphed later in the car that you remain in the ground until you’re recalled. It’s a sad way to envision the afterlife and yet she was always so cheerful.
uh.
“Much easier than attacking the real threat, the Autobot Moon Base!”
Just tell her!!!
Becky is controlling again, now with her friend. Just let Joyce go with her, Becky…
smh at Becky being controlling and abusive of Joyce by ignoring her saying she doesn’t want to talk about it and trying to pull an answer out.
It’s almost like social interaction other than at its worst excesses isn’t something that can be objectively quantified like it’s on a scale from Wholesome to Problematic, and the context of a relationship between two people significantly changes and alters how they approach each other and what constitutes their limits for what is or isn’t an appropriate way to act around them.
Careful, that sounds like you’re suggesting interpersonal communication can be complex and perhaps even tricky for outside parties to judge in the moment.
Man don’t let certain people see this 👀
Anyway this thought occurred to me while I was walking my dog last night:
Dumbing of Age will end with Joe and Joyce getting married, and Danny is there and he’s in a poly triad with Sal and Sayid. I will accept zero criticism of this statement that is definitely happening.
But is the dog named Walky.
I feel like that would have been the time to come clean, dead mom or no.
“hey i don’t think your dead mom’s in heaven because heavens not real. Man that’s a load off my chest, anyway back to dealing with your still fresh grief”
Nah dude that’s called being a shitty friend. Time and place, this is not it.
Also she gets to decide when she feels ready to come out with it
Look at Joyce all not Danning it up!
I mean Joyce straight up said she was trying to be sensitive and Becky said “nope”. And honestly I think she could use the distraction. Agree to disagree I guess.
Of course, there is the frankly HUGE assumption that Paulus the Roman wasn’t just an attention whore, trading in on Jesus’ fame, pulling ideas out of his ass to try and impress his audience.
I’m in this comic strip and I don’t like it.
Twice! There’s two thumbs!
If Heaven doesn’t exist, then, well, it falls to us to create it. Retroactively, if need be.
Yes let’s make ringworld[/strikeout] river world!
Pretty solid diagnose there in the third panel
To be fair “You’ve got Joyce nonsense in there” is a pretty safe bet whatever Joyce says. Especially if she’s acting even a little bit hesitant.
A bit dismissive though really
Becky’s allowed to be dismissive with Joyce. Best friend privileges.
I’d argue Becky isn’t Joyces best friend. Dorothy clearly is Joyces best friend or at least has her best interests at heart.
Joyce has said BOTH Dorothy and Becky are her best friends, refuses to rank one over the other, and clearly loves them both. Becky’s also been trying to suppress the MASSIVE MOUNTAINS OF TRAUMA that have been the last year of her life, which means we’re maybe not seeing her at her best friending skills. Especially when she’s extremely insecure about Dorothy as Joyce’s new best friend and the possibility she might supplant Becky (irrational, but traumatized 18-year-old who lost both her parents in fairly sudden ways, and their entire community to boot.)
And while sometimes, Dorothy pushing Joyce out of her comfort zone or challenging her is needed, sometimes it just comes off as kinda insensitive. (For instance, while Joyce DOES eventually need to address some of her shame and fear about her own sexuality, given how much of it’s tied up in trauma from their upbringing or, y’know, the recent sexual assault, I don’t think that’s one that can be handled quickly or without some kind of outside help.)
This feels fairly worse than just telling her the truth.
Comforting a grieving religious friend is an inappropriate time to announce one’s apostasy. Maybe there’s a worse time, but I can’t think of it. Like if you’re going to a funeral, it’s a good idea to prepare comforting things to say (and respond with) that are areligious without being irreligious.
“That’s comforting,” would be a better response than, “yup, she definitely is in heaven” and also, “well, actually, the afterlife is probably just imaginary.”