Nah, she doesn’t necessarily need to be manipulated for her to know if he’s manipulative.
All she needs to do is think of an observation or design an experiment that would have a different result depending on whether or not he was actually manipulative.
Nothing fails harder to win over a crowd than brass tacks-economics, and manipulators focus on what wins over crowds. Protecting yourself from manipulators can’t realistically be learned through anything you can openly get to or win over the public at large with, as that would be like trying to beat a white pointer at a head-to-head biting duel.
Do you really think letting herself vulnerable like that is the only way to find out whether or not Danny is actually manipulative?
She needs to approach this like a scientist — she needs to think up something she can observe, or carefully design a series of experiments, where the results that would occur if Danny WAS manipulative would be DIFFERENT from the results that would occur if Danny WASN’T manipulative.
A series of experiments that can’t do THAT is as good as a pregnancy test that always reads positive or negative — absolutely USELESS! USELESS! MUTA MUTA MUTA MUTA MU TA TA TA TA TA!!!!
I should have said this earlier but I have conflicted feelings on Danny looking nice with the black coat and blue scarf.
Because on one hand he’s hot and I don’t know how to process that, on the other hand I feel betrayed that Danny moved on from the all-important no fashion sense energy that is inherent to bisexuals.
Look, Dorothy didn’t break up with him THAT long ago. Maybe she got him the scarf to go with a coat he already had last Christmas, and it’s too warm and toasty to get rid of.
Tatsuya Suou from Persona 2 does the first two but fails the latter due to being a silent protagonist (though he gets an honourable mention for communicating with demons by making motorcycle noises with his mouth), Zagreus from Hades deliberately exposes part of his chest to enemy attacks so he can show off his pecs so that’s a grey area but then he has Shonen Anime hair.
Finally there’s Danny, who with his dapper hat, party in the back haircut, and implementation of bi puns, has evolved into the ultimate form of bisexuality.
@Moonie: I know, right?
@Spencer: I’ll have you know that my fashion sense is perfectly fine, thank you very much. Just because I’m usually too lazy to put in the effort doesn’t mean I don’t know HOW to look good.
Wow, Sal!
Did that motorcycle have a stick for a seat?!
Ordinarily, the phrase “Who Hurt You” would be the next thing typed, but, I guess the answers to that question are all too obvious!
Come to think of it, if Sal had her motorcycle because Linda pulled strings, is that also why Asher has his? I kinda hope Gramps / the mob doesn’t have power over the dean.
I don’t think we know for sure what year Asher is in/credits he has (if they count it by credits), so it’s possible strings didn’t need to be pulled. If they did, they wouldn’t necessarily have to be over the dean– that was just Linda’s connection, but I doubt he regularly gets involved with students’ vehicle permits.
That’s quiet possible, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he’s a sophomore. For me, that’d still fall under “underclassmen,” but it can be used differently especially, again, if counting by credits. I also can’t find it listed as an actual IU policy listed anywhere, so I can’t really clarify that way.
All that said, it does make the most sense narratively if strings are being pulled, with this coming up for Sal and his motorcycle being shown.
Hey, you handle the parking permits right? If you don’t mind me asking, what do they pay you a month? Your kidding! How do they get away with that? You know the policy on undergraduate parking is kind of silly; what would you say to half a months salary that definitely wasn’t stolen from the Korean mob. You know, if there were a little error.
It also could be he usually parks it off-campus outside except for class (he wasn’t riding it at the dorm earlier, after all,) and the campus traffic cops don’t check outside the academic buildings as much. Or something to that effect.
But yeah, I think it’s either mob connections (and seeing it this semester might be an early hint Asher’s actively involved again) or rulebreaking/significantly bending, though I could see him being an upperclassman given he was hanging out with Raidah. (‘Upperclassmen’ usually tends to refer to juniors and seniors in my experience, but if he took a shitload of AP credits or something it’d be possible for him to have started with Sarah and company and technically be considered a junior.)
Or not even a shitload if he 1. took summer classes and 2. just reached enough credits this semester. (I think I just don’t want it to be mob ties, even though that seems quite possible.)
I’m going with ‘Asher doesn’t care about the rules (and is playing just this shy of actively breaking them, because the rules only cover dorm parking and/or academic buildings’ parking lots aren’t checked as much)’ until established otherwise. Him being a year older than the Walkerton kids AND being at least a semester ahead of his actual year by credits is more assumptions than ‘parks off-campus when he’s not going to class’, and the blackmail/his discussion with Sal about stealing tuition both suggested stealing from Gramps was recent – the last few months, not over a year ago. (Him being more than a year ahead in credits would leave him a lot less time for Casual Cool Guy-ing with Jennifer and joking about skipping class with her, so I’m ruling that out.)
I don’t know if we’ve been given anything specifically about Asher’s age…
But in the flashback episode where Sal tried to knock off a store, it looked like she was 13. Meanwhile, Asher was hanging out with people who were old enough to drive (implying they were 16?) So it wouldn’t surprise me if he were actually 2-3 years older than Sal.
I’d got the impression that at least one of those was Asher’s brother, so he was likely the kid tagging along and bring the Everything gets much creepier if he’s that much older than her.
Leaving that in, but I looked a bit deeper and he says here that he was 13 at the time.
So, it does look like Sal and Asher are roughly the same age (both around 13 at the time of the robbery.) Its still possible that Asher started at unversity before Sal (based on what dates their birthdays fell on), but there is probably some other reason Asher has his bike, other than “he’s older so is allowed to have it on campus”.
Yep. Could be mob, could be rulebreaking, could maybe be an absurd amount of credits elsewhere but DOROTHY isn’t introduced as doing the degree in three years thing, so I doubt it, y’know?
I see where Sal is coming from. This is exactly what repeated abuse and manipulation does.
Targets like her have learned all the little phrases and gestures that signify a coming storm. In response to these stimuli, their defenses explode into overreaction.
Unlearning these deeply conditioned responses can be a tough, lengthy process. Ongoing contact with Linda and other toxic people, which constantly reactivate these responses, may very well be sabotaging Sal’s recovery.
Yup, this is exactly what Linda’s brand of “I’m not listening to you because I know what’s best” emotional abuse does to its victims.
Danny’s not used to that, his parents just straight-up bully him.
Still, I understand his reaction to Sal’s hyperactive defense. My broken, miswired brain has stuck me on his side of this conversation before. The “what am I doing wrong?”, “yes that exactly!” exchange is all too familiar.
She wouldn’t, but many manipulators do. Linda’s the big one, but Sal’s probably dealt with more than one person who has tried to play her like a fiddle.
I do think she’s being a little silly here, but one of my dearest friends has known me for years, and she still second-guesses kind gestures from me and other friends at points. It’s an extremely difficult thing to unlearn, so I sympathize with Sal.
Yeah it doesn’t help the process of unlearning these conditioned refluxes when she’s still somehow obligated to interact with Linda, “Jennifer” and the Toxic Crusaders.
Agreed. Linda’s the narcissistic type of goofus. Danny, with his needy self-debasement and parents who brought him up with a ‘FIND A GIRL WHO’S HEADING FOR A BETTER LIFE AND CLING TO HER LIKE A BARNACLE, MAN! THERE’S NO OTHER WAY!!!’ approach to success, leans much more toward a codependent type, and if he’s a manipulator, he’s not a very good one.
Ok Sal heres the thing. Linda has bought you and she does own you. You can say whatever you like and make whatever futile actions you want but as long as you’re in uni and Lindas paying for it you belong to her.
You could drop out of uni and have nothing more to with Lindas money. You could enlist and earn tuition assistance. You could work and study at the same time.
But at the moment Linda owns you and your soul and will always own you until you stop accepting her money
Or since you already accept her money then why not try to take as much as she’ll give you until you graduate
One heart attack (survived), one suicide attempt (survived) and one prisoner took a pretty nasty beating is what my day was like today.
I know you probably think that Corrections Officers are little more than uneducated, bullying thugs that get off on treating prisoners badly and so of course we see everything through the lens of prison life.
I hear it all the time especially from people on the left
I hear it from people that have never worked in a prison, that’ve never been to prison, that get their information from TV, someone they know, a relative, from the movies, whatever.
What people don’t hear about is what its like to have to calm down and reassure the prisoner that what they imagined they heard on TV isn’t going to happen and they’re not going to die and that they can eat their lunch (that was a weird situation)
Or what to do with the younger, larger, stronger and meaner prisoner that currently has their foot in the door and is trying to come through that door and you want to close that door. Do you:
A. Kick his foot back and close the door or
B. Hold the door so that he cant come through but you cant close it either
Or you hear the break break code blue call and you head to the wing and you’re confronted with a riot and your hearts beating (through the effort of getting to the unit and adrenaline) and you’ve got your pepper spray out (we only have pepper spray) and you start coughing and your own eyes starting watering because of the thick haze of spray in the ear
Or dealing with the prisoner that breaks down in the visits hall because his missus has left him and taken the kids and put a court order in so no more visits from his kids
Then hearing the same prisoner talk about how unfair life is to him and how he shouldn’t be in prison without a second thought to the victims of his crime.
Or being handcuffed (for five hours because the other officers couldn’t handle it emotionally) to the prisoner and trying to keep her stitches from popping open while she goes off and won’t take the meds she needs to calm down
Or reading the latest one sided hit piece in the media about how Corrections Officers are mistreating prisoners even though its the prisoner that decides how they get treated in prisons
Or having to go hands on with the prisoner thereby causing hours of paperwork to be filled out and in the end the prisoner only wanted to be removed from the unit
Or working through the pandemic (no shutdown for us) and only getting a word of praise from our minister, on facebook, when we request it from him
Or doing constant observations on a prisoner (because of the strong possibility of self harm) and getting abused for the next hour (5 minute observations) by, as the media described, Drug Kingpin
But if all you’ve got is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.
Dude, I don’t even know who or what to believe anymore honestly it comes to this kind of stuff, media or otherwise. At this rate, anything could become “the truth” if enough people believe it.
To you and the people you work with, you’re doing the best you can.
To the other side, cops are the devil.
To me, for now I’m just comfortable with not knowing. It’s better to admit uncertainty, then to act on pretended knowledge.
Holy fuck dude, you’re made of sterner stuff than I am to be able to put up with that every day.
This just reinforces my belief that we need to strengthen our social programs, so they can intervene and get these people help before they’re desperate enough to turn to crime and/or substance abuse as a means to an end. Unfortunately, the “war on drugs” and “war on crime” years shifted that burden onto law enforcement, who was then only given violent rhetoric and escalation as tools. Beat cops’ work should look like Adam-12 more than Robocop.
If we’ve learned anything from the American Prohibition, the “war on drugs” isn’t going to help to elevate social problems at all. It gives too much power to organized crime, and those kinds of laws by their very nature are virtually unenforceable.
I’m saying treating it as an opportunity to “crack down” and militarize beat cops was a mistake because it’s only going to galvanize an “us vs them” divide between civilians and law enforcement.
I’m willing to concede that it’s a hard job and that it’s probably often misrepresented, but shit like “its the prisoner that decides how they get treated in prisons” doesn’t help your cause.
Woah, no, parents do not own their children, even if the parents are helping their children.
Sal will certainly cast off all help as soon as she can, but she shouldn’t need to threaten her education to prove a point… which she won’t even prove successfully. If Sal stops taking Linda’s tuition assistance, Linda will just move the goals so that Sal owes Linda for all the help she’s ever given previously — including normal stuff that was Linda’s responsibility as a parent (food, shelter, schooling), and stuff that was not helpful at ALL (“helping” Sal make choices, sending her to Tennessee, etc).
Linda will always claim that Sal owes her, but that doesn’t make it true.
I get what you’re saying but I feel it’s important to phrase this in a way that doesn’t leave the implication of “Sal needs to be brave and emancipate herself, that’s her responsibility.”
When a parent and child relationship gets as broken as Linda and Sal’s, it leaves you with a lot of shattered pieces to reflect on. Sal could do these things, she is a legal adult, but that comes at a massive risk and an even more massive cost to the rest of her life, let alone her immediate future, that it’s simply unfeasible to ask that of a 19-year old.
It is, as the kids say, a bit of a bruh moment for me.
I guess its a little frustrating in that she wants freedom from Linda but won’t take it herself (and fair enough, its a scary decision to make) yet is, by her own actions, taking stuff from Linda but not taking all she could be taking (and so only hurting herself)
Hell Linda would probably be glad Sal isn’t riding her bike
Like, it’s not that Hollywood. When you storm out the door from your abuser, the credits don’t actually roll. People don’t trap themselves with abusive providers because they just aren’t brave enough. Financial abuse, of both partners and children, is real.
It does make all that harder of course but Uni is not the be all and end of life.
If you want to go to Uni then good for you but you don’t have to go if you don’t want to, you don’t have to go immediately after high school as you can delay
As for job prospects, the current rate of unemployment in Indiana is 4.1% which seems pretty low to me so finding a job shouldn’t be an issue
again not saying its easy but Sal does have options and I suspect she thinks she doesn’t.
With all due respect, you’re speaking about this situation as though Sal is – or even can be – a rational actor from within this dynamic. She is not. Really the only thing she has going for her is that she’s got enough self-awareness to KNOW she’s not – but that is not the same thing as being able to overcome her irrationality.
Sal has been the target of emotional and psychological abuse for literally her entire life. Worse, her abuser was in one of the most unassailable positions from which to enact that pattern of abuse it is possible to be – her own mother. The person most people trust more implicitly than any other in their own lives, the person the world tells her in a thousand ways large and small should be the stable rock at her core – instead gaslights and denigrates her.
Sal WANTS to trust people, most of all she wants to trust her mother. But she KNOWS, from a lifetime of hard, painful experience, that she can’t. So she’s full of both frustration and ambivalence. She feels trapped and wants desperately to get out of the cage, but doesn’t trust herself enough to actually break out. She puts up a mask of self-assurance, but underneath, she’s afraid her mother IS right about her, and the real Sal is worthless and incapable of amounting to anything. So she stays out of fear, suspects that’s exactly what she’s doing, and resents how she’s been tied up in self-doubt she can’t escape.
For all her tough persona, Sal is only 19. She’s matured enough to see what’s been done to her, but not to get past it. Eventually, either her bottled rage will explode enough for her to do as you suggest and she’ll cut all ties to her mother, or she’ll develop enough sense of independent self-worth to be at least a little resistant to her mother’s manipulations and outgrow her. But for right now, she’s caught between too many conflicting impulses.
I seriously don’t know what you’re aiming for anymore, dude.
Like are you just here to say “Sal, who is barely out of adolescence, needs to uproot her life in the face of her abusive mother or… she can’t have a problem with it anymore?”
It’s entirely possible I’m having too sensitive a reaction because this exact argument gets used against me on the reg whenever I vocalize that I have a problem living with my alcoholic mother. I have a disability and not much else to my name so, yeah, I’m kind of dependent, and there’s a level of added humiliation where I’m 28 and not just passed teenagehood so I need to be grateful I’m allowed to stay here at all, so naturally what I need to do is run to my 90 year old grandmother’s house in a podunk town with no car where I’m definitely not going to manage any kind of meaningful employment like I want, but I should do it anyway otherwise it’s my fault I’m here? Yeah I guess it is but I think the pressing issue is that the thing causing me problems shouldn’t exist in the first place.
Seriously. Staying in school gives Sal food and a place to sleep, and it keeps Linda placated but at a distance. That means she’s got more room to start hiding money in an account Linda doesn’t know about, or figuring out which faculty members know someone who hires new graduates and just so happens to be based on the other side of the country, oh darn, what a shame, see you again never. Closer to graduation, it means figuring out which friends will have a couch she can crash on in the worst case scenario. If Sal doesn’t have all her original paperwork – birth certificate, Social Security, etc. – it’s easier for her to say she needs them for a job application after playing just enough of Linda’s game to keep her placated than take them from the Walkerton Household’s Important Documents box, and far easier than trying to get new copies without an original of SOMETHING. Staying in school gives her way more time to prep so that when she DOES cut ties with Linda, she’ll land safely. And it does so without Linda on her back. If Sal drops out now, her only real person to fall back on is Marcie (who doesn’t have the space for another roommate last we heard,) her job prospects are worse because capitalist bullshit, she probably has less saved up, she may or may not have her Social Security card and number but almost certainly doesn’t have her birth certificate, and there’s a nonzero chance if she just dropped out now that Linda would pull the abusive parent tactic of reporting Sal missing (either through standard channels or the internet or both) and painting herself as so concerned about her daughter’s possible abduction, PLEASE let her know if you find anything!
(Yes, that is a thing that happens.)
While she’s at school, Sal’s situation is mostly stable. Breaks are bad, but leaving now would actually put her in a worse position.
Also, college tuition is something Linda’s less likely to use as ammunition against Sal in an argument – ultimately, college graduate kids make her look better than one not going or dropping out. That means it’s relatively safe to take, and relatively unlikely to be threatened unless Linda’s REALLY pissed.
Benching the motorcycle temporarily means she probably still has it (rather than Linda trying to get rid of it during an argument, though I hope it’s being stored somewhere safe Linda doesn’t have access to in that case,) but doesn’t have the specific ‘favor’ Linda WAS very likely trying to leverage against Sal to get something she wanted. That’s still a net positive for Sal, and she CAN manage without a motorcycle on campus. The cost-benefit analysis here isn’t worth it.
Either way, for Sal to be the one to jump through all those hoops would be wrongfully putting the burden of Linda’s shameful actions on to HER shoulders.
This was exactly my strategy as a kid. If you’re trying to escape an abusive situation with this strategy, you do so by 1, picking your battles (for 2 reasons: 1, being a doormat is really bad for anyone’s mental health. People need to have agency over their own lives. And 2, suddenly becoming a doormat when you’ve always been the difficult one isn’t going to placate the abuser, it’s going to make them clamp down more. Ultimately abuse isn’t about the victim’s behavior, it’s about the abuser’s desire for power and attention. You remove the conflict and you remove their ability to feel like they’re exercising the power, so they’ll invent reasons to be pissed.), 2, building an escape plan, 3, setting yourself up so you can be as independent as possible and don’t need their financial help anymore and then you assert yourself.
Becky, for all her zany antics on camera, was probably trying to work on the same sort of plan until it blew up and staying became more risky than leaving.
Because one of the things abusive parents convince you of is your own incompetence and naïveté. You’re ignorant and gullible and foolish and you’ll be eaten alive by the real world, child. I just want to protect you. And the abuser – either independently or through enablers – can and will sabotage you to reinforce that message (see also Linda stealing Sal’s money, or Carol paying Toedad’s bail), too. Sal (and the other cast members with bad parents) has been hearing that message her entire life. They’ll also keep your documents hostage under the excuse you can’t be trusted with them. So even if it was the 1950s and walking off with a one finger salute was an actual viable option for her because you could pay tuition with a part time job (others have already covered why it’s not unless she’s willing to sacrifice her own dreams and ambitions), it’s very likely that at a subconscious level Sal doesn’t believe she could make it work without a ton of preparation and getting all her ducks in a row.
In my country, parents are responsible for their children, even once emancipated, what means they have to pay a fee, according to what they can, even if the kid cut strings, meaning that in my country, Sal could tell her mom to fuck off and have some money, from her through the state, meaning she gets it from the state and not from her mom.
Otherwise, I don’t see how giving up on money is being emancipated, or otherways it means you employer owns you.
You sure don’t mean that?
Sal is under Linda’s thumb so long as Linda’s paying for her to go to school. In order to sever ties, she would have to get a job and pay her own way, either continuing her education or in the workforce.
Right now, she’s getting a relatively good deal. Linda’s placated and easily kept at arm’s length (out of sight, out of mind), and she doesn’t have to worry about rent and groceries for a few years. She also has the opportunity to mend her relationship with her brother if she chooses. There are costs of course (the bike, dealing with Linda during visits and breaks), but she has time to build up her reserves so she can go no-contact after graduation.
Yeah, but when it’s phrased as “Linda owns her” it implies something more legitimate than “under Linda’s thumb”. Especially with the “bought you” and the “and your soul” parts. It’s the very language that abusive parents use.
With the rest of it, it also implies it’s actually Sal’s responsibility and she should either cut ties or stop complaining, when having an abusive controlling parent is a very valid thing to be upset about, even if you could theoretically at great risk cut yourself free from them.
@wagstaff
one people often list as communist but isn’t one bit (socialized enterprises from the 45-49 era are almost all private now).
Also I’d like to point that there are some drawback in this, since you have to assign your parents in justice to get the fee, or persuade the state to do it (mostly done when you’re full of debts or a delinquent that must pay its victims a given sum), also another drawback is that if you want social care, you have to prove that your parents can’t give you money (fortunatly, that one is rarely enforced). But yes, in theory, that’s pretty sensible, I’ve seen a 14 y.o. that was working hours at McDonalds on the other side of the border since she got emancipated and didn’t want to live in one of these awful official households…
Just a thought, if your comments are the EXACT REASONING of Literal Murderous Villians in the story , consider saving them for your “Blaine was right” fanfiction.
The entire comics longstory has been how NONE OF THAT BULLSHIT is true! You are the one person in the audience that was supposed to learn this NEW FACT.
Was it “easy” for Becky to cut all ties with Toedad ?
Did really “have no Hold on” her, when he LITERALLY kidnapped her?
Cease the bad dad propaganda.
its a millimeter from queerphobia , and you should know that as there were literal college lessons by leslie on this exact topic incomic
Joe’s dad is okay for now, he actually stuck with Amber’s mom over winter break, that’s impressive for his record. Joyce’s dad is working on a divorce, answer pending how he’s been treating others based on this. Danny’s dad is meh, but not bad dad tier. Sierra’s is just a divorced dad, neutral, as we don’t know him. Dorothy’s parents are A+ tier and we will all be shocked when they do wrong. Amber and Becky’s are dead, they are removed but remain at bad standing. Jennifer’s dad removed all homeless in a less that positive light based on maid’s reaction, not too positive. Sal and Walky’s dad allow for manipulation on Sal and is basically a “yes dear” person. Carla’s dad made cool things and supports his daughter’s identity, he’s cool. Wr know nothing on….Walky’s girlfriend parents so blank there.Think I got all current people’s dads? I think the twin’s dad is the bad dad.
Sierra’s dad isn’t divorced and seems pretty cool. He stood up to Blaine on family weekend way back when.
Ruth’s dad is dead, but her mom’s dad is likely the baddest dad we’ve got left with Ross and Blaine out of the picture. Maybe Jennifer’s but we’ve only heard about him.
Billingsworth Sr. has definitely screwed Jennifer up with the longterm neglect – among other things, the Walkerton parents are her preferred parental substitute. But apart from ‘rich’ and ‘fucked over city’s worth of homeless people’ we don’t know anything else*, because his primary form of Bad Parenting is… well, neglect. The absence is the bad parenting in itself.
Dargon ‘cruel captain of industry’ Chesterfield seems unlikely to appear in person, but given the description, Ruth and Jason bonding over their awful rich male guardian figures, and the fact that Walkyverse him was a criminal mastermind on par with the actual big bad of the series, I’ve been assuming he’s still pretty dang evil. Also, ‘cruel captain of industry’ means he can get away with even the most cartoonish supervillainy actually being realistic. Alas. Good news is, I don’t think we’ll ever have to see him!
Clint’s almost certainly the overall winner of the Still-Living Bad Guardians, though, if only because he’s much more likely to show up than Dargon and while we can guess Dadingsworth’s probably trash on a personal level as well as politically cruel, Clint bribed the school to keep a suicidally depressed woman fresh out of the hospital who was already known to abuse her authority as the RA. Just. Every level there, completely terrible. Only clear competition is Asher’s Gramps, and we don’t actually know that he’s a guardian or what he’s like personally/as a parent or guardian, which is a factor here.
* I mean Jennifer seems to think he’s equivalent to Asher’s mob boss grandpa in influence/danger, but I’m not trusting that judgment as actually accurate until we SEE Dadingsworth because… like. Mob boss. Who we have seen order someone’s death, specifically. (Well, implicitly, but seriously guys Asher did not call that hit.) Much more personal a threat, especially because Asher’s not on his good side right now.
On the good parents: Yeah, Dorothy’s parents are both excellent, as are Sierra’s (well, her dad’s DEFINITELY awesome, her mom didn’t get a spotlight scene but we can assume from Sierra that both her parents are pretty cool.) Mike’s parents were disarmingly nice. The Saruyamas get points docked for insisting on letting Blaine into the dorm over Dina saying that Amber wouldn’t want him there, but her dad apologized once Blaine started evil monologing in the dorm so I’m willing to give them a pass as ‘used to the social norms, didn’t expect Blaine’s flagrant violations.’
In ‘mediocre to bad tier,’ we have the Wilcox parents and Ethan’s dad, who is clearly still suffering from compulsory heterosexuality (and I do mean SUFFERING) and therefore comes off slightly more sympathetic than his mom, but who is nonetheless advising his gay son to have sex with a woman no matter how deeply unpleasant it may be, he knows it’s terrible, but that’s just what they as men must do. Naomi clearly sucks quite a bit, as well.
Mr Smith is Unironically paraphrasing Blaines “I paid for this school so i OWN YOU” speech.
doubling down 3 times with “own you” , buy applying it to Sal.
Then pretending she could just “cut ties” now despite politically powerful parents and history in the criminal justice system,
despite Ambers and becks failure to do that. Or Ruth. Or Jason.
But Mr ToughGuy has it all figured out, and doesnt care if hes shitting on closeted queer readers dependent of parental support to finish education;
AND the history people literally owning other People in this country
Is the assumption that Sal’s school is paid for by parents, or did I miss when we learned that?
Also the idea that you could just “work and study at the same time” and not have an issue anymore is funny in the US. I had no help from parents, but a full scholarship, and I worked half time as a TA (crap pay) but still needed student loans.
When your parent is actively abusing you, it is OK to take what they’re willing to give, build yourself a life and a safety net with it, and, with your degree in hand and your proverbial ducks in a row, you can *then* go low-contact or no-contact as you need (based on their behaviours at that time). Patience is a legit strategy, too.
Agreed. Since Sal is taking from Linda already then she should go all out and get as much as she can for as long as she can until shes ready to cut ties.
So… maybe you should have said something more like this in your original comment then. You seemed to be STRONGLY critical of Sal for accepting tuition money from her mother and then when people explain why it’s a valid strategy for escaping her abuse, you flip and agree with it. Sal is doing her best with what she’s got. It’s not cool to come in here all “SHE CAN JUST QUIT NOW” when, as has been explained, that would end much worse for her in the long run.
Sal doesn’t enjoy taking money from her parents. She knows it gives Linda ammunition, and moreover, Sal wants to be a highly independent person. Sal won’t want to milk her parents for all they’re worth. That’s just not how she rolls.
Sal’s smartest move would be to work part-time while enrolled, sock those wages away in a credit union account Linda and Charles can’t access, graduate on their dime, and then sever.
No clear indication of scholarships, which would probably have come up during the math arc if she was getting a full ride.
No universe in which an 18-year-old could pay for current tuition at a major college on her own, especially since financial aid would assume her parents ARE capable of and willing to pay a certain percentage of tuition and proving otherwise would be incredibly difficult. (Remember how Becky was waiting for her house to foreclose so she could prove she was homeless for financial aid, even though her dad was in jail for kidnapping her? Yeah.)
Since she hasn’t mentioned a metric fuckton of student loans, it’s safe to assume her parents are paying tuition, at least in part – I wouldn’t be shocked if going to IU wasn’t actually her idea, but a ‘both twins are going to the same school’ thing.
Which, yes, Linda can almost certainly use as pressure later. But if it wasn’t this, it’d be something else, as pointed out elsewhere, and at least she might be able to leverage a degree into more financial options later. Plus I wouldn’t be shocked if she doesn’t have a key piece of documentation because Linda kept her Social Security card ‘for safekeeping’ or something, which would severely limit things. Sticking it out as long as you safely can while you build a safety net is a known strategy for escaping abusive living situations. While Sal’s away at college, it’s actually pretty safe for her all told.
It hasn’t been established how most of the characters are paying for university (except Sarah, who is mindful of her GPA-based scholarship, and Becky, with her required PoliSci major). When Sal was doing poorly in math, she was worried about proving herself, not about losing her funding, so I assumed she was mainly financed by her rich parents, student loans, or both.
Look, the way you word something matters. It just does. Possibly even more than what you actually meant when you said it, because words have meaning and weight and hidden connotations, and picking the wrong words will make people read what you said in a way you didn’t mean. If you don’t want people to think you have extreme, overwhelmingly negative opinions of something, maybe you don’t say stupid shit like “X owns Y’s soul”.
Hey, Taffy. I own your soul. I keep it in a box under my bed and every so often take it out and give it a good shaking. But I’ll sell it back to you for $5.00.
Yeah like, I thought I was misconstruing something, I thought wires were getting crossed as they are want to do when you communicate in a context-less medium of written words, but the more I read this comment chain the more fucked it gets.
I mean, unless Linda has a contract with Sal that she is just loaning her the money, she’s just spending it, and Sal can at least get a good education out of it and hopefully break contact after and only have contact through Walky.
Although it probably still feels bad.
While I think I get what you’re saying about Sal’s situation the motorcycle is also expensive to upkeep and could also slow down the whole leaving process.
I also think on some level it was something Sal did for herself and that was important to her and if she keeps it now it won’t be.
There’s an old Chinese fable, where a man lost something, and suspected his neighbour of stealing it. Observing his neighbour, he noted that the neighbour behaved in a very suspicious way; all his actions and mannerisms were like that of a thief.
However the man eventually found his belongings, and the next day when he observed the neighbour again, he realised that said mannerisms were like that of a normal person.
Moral of the story is that you view people through your own lens and biasness. Get therapy, Sal.
She’s had therapy. It left her with a distrust of therapists.
It’s also hard to get over such things, even with therapy, when the cause of them is still right there doing the same manipulation you’ve needed to become suspicious of.
Maybe she should just dive deep into online games.
” If REAL LIFE doesn’t want to play fair, we’re just not gonna play with REAL LIFE at all! How does that feel, REAL LIFE? “
It’s crude (by some metrics), but at least it would work. I mean, there’s only so much the product of hundreds of millions of years of happy accidents could do right.
Sounds like my dad’s beagles. Step outside for a few minutes because he doesn’t want people blazing in his house, come back in to three little hounds freaking out because you’ve (apparently) been gone for years.
Seriously, even in his darkest moment, when he was being an unmitigated dick about a dying man, Danny was in trouble because he has the subtlety and manipulation skills of an actual brick, Sal.
Yeah, anyone who’s interacted with Danny for more than a few minutes should know he’s not really able to manipulate people. If he even tried he’d probably screw it up almost immediately.
Little known fact: the original proverb actually goes, “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth, instead always slice its fucking gut open just in case!!! BLOODY GREEKS ALWAYS SCHEMING AND TRICKING I HATE THEM I HATE THEM AAAAAAH”
but weirdly enough it eventually got trimmed down to that first part
Sure. You may absolutely quote me on this. I should also mention that a table flip is included, don’t forget to do that for maximum historical accuracy.
I get Sal though. After she reacted the way she did when he bought her a bicycle, I’d also be wary because he hasn’t backed off at all. Sal clearly liked the idea but didn’t want overt presents.
let’s put it this way
If he only wanted to do something nice for her, he’d have stopped.
If he only wanted to communicate his more-than-friends intent, then that came across already.
If he wanted to coursecorrect his present to a more simple flower boquet (because a bicycle IS a lot), he could’ve said so, instead of asking whether she wants the flowers or not – which puts the onus on her to explain herself.
No wonder she feels triggered by it. I hope Danny continues to listen, because considering her boundaries is the sort of mundane romance that would make him a good bf. Instead of emptying your bank account for a bike she hadn’t even mentioned needing.
He didn’t know she’d want either though, and after seeing her reaction to the bike, he went ahead with his idea of a romantic gesture anyway, disregarding her discomfort.
I mean it’s good it opens up the conversation, but Danny doesn’t need to push it further. If he just accept that about her, and she could relax into it.
tbf this is very much IC for Danny – big romantic gestures. It was the same with Dorothy and Amber, and it was sometimes too much for them as well.
Not unless you’re predisposed, which is like 1% of people but you should check for family history for stuff like that. And with any other substance you should always start off with lower amounts to see how it affects you personally.
Some people might think it makes them more anxious at first, but that’s because THC always tends to elevate the heart-rate right before slowing it down and reducing blood pressure.
That said, Sal should definitely try it again to see if it helps. It’s actually totally normal for people not to feel anything their first time taking it.
To a certain extent, pot is a general mood enhancer – it kinda makes you feel more of whatever you’re already feeling, like a low-key version of Ecstasy. So, by default, it tends to make people feel calm and mellow – because on average people don’t go around feeling intense emotions all the time, and if they’re comfortable enough to take a mind-altering drug on purpose, they’re probably not already freaking out. But if one is prone to anxiety, or circumstances force you into an anxious state, it can also exacerbate that feeling quite a bit.
Even that’s kind of over-generalizing. Unlike other drugs, which work their effects on one or more specific pathways found in the overwhelming majority of human brains, cannabis works on a whole system of receptors that’s uniquely tailored to the individual’s brain and neurological development.
This means that everyone’s experience with the drug is very unique, and can vary even further across different terpene blends and even times of day.
It depends on the type of strain and your own unique brain chemistry. The THC and CBD levels can affect what type of reaction you get. A high THC level when you are a new user is more likely to give you an anxious/paranoid reaction than if you start with a low THC level. Your brain sensitivity might still cause you to have an anxious/paranoid reaction though.
One time when I was visiting my sister, one of her friends at night, I presume, ate an edible as it was never confirmed to me specifically how he took it, but he was paranoid and awake the entire night and needed watched and reassured until it wore off in the morning because he had a really bad reaction to it.
You should NOT use any type of it though if your family history is prone to psychotic disorders or schizophrenia as the THC can trigger the onset of them though.
It’s actually thousands of times LESS toxic than coffee, if that’s what you mean.
It’s the dosage that really matters, so as with anything else you would try a TINY BIT to see what it does.
If you want an idea of what TINY looks like for cannabis, 3 mg of THC and 1 mg CBD made me absolutely ECSTATIC on my first time. So maybe start with a third of that?
By the way, not that this matters, but it can actually act as an aphrodisiac in some people.
The THC in pot adds dopamine to your body, which is enjoyable in small doses. But in large doses, that enjoyment can turn to anxiety. What seperates small from large changes from person to person AND from time to time.
I’ve experimented with edibles a lot before trying joints and vapes. Some times I’ve ingested 50 mg of THC and still had the capacity to keep my emotions under control and talk to people over the phone, but the one time I had a panic attack was from 5 mg of THC. At the time I was afraid of taking an edible in the evening and still being high the morning after, and I had to go to work the next morning. I kept thinking, “No no no, they’re gonna see my red eyes and they’re gonna fire me and report me to the cops!” (this was Idaho, actually a realistic scenario)
“I’m not the Messiah, do you understand!? Honestly!”
“Only the true Messiah denies his divinity!”
“What? Well what sort of chance does that leave me? Alright, I am the Messiah!”
“HE IS! HE IS THE MESSIAH!”
Sal, I realize that Danny’s psyche has also been crushed quite well over the years but even he might come to the conclusion that he deserves to be treated better than that shit you are putting him through. Calm down and stop putting all of your issues with your mother on everyone else. The fact that you see people being transactionally manipulative like your mother already caused you issues with Jason (you thought he wanted to exchange sex for grades so you seduced him thinking you’d get your grades improved, when Jason had no such intentions but also had no self-control to turn you down). I’m not sure how many other interpersonal relationships you have to ruin before you learn that lesson, but you’ll regret it if Danny is one of them.
Well one, ruining a relationship with Jason is what we in the biz call a bullet dodged.
Two, yeah Sal’s being kind of frustrating I guess, that’s lifelong trauma for you, but it’s not like Danny himself is reacting poorly to that. If he said something like “hey it bothers me that I feel like I’m the only one trying to be a friend here and it would mean a lot to me if you did that too” then yeah that’d be an acknowledgement that Sal’s behaviour is hurting him, but it’s not. Danny already knows pretty clearly that Sal is walled up like Fort Knox, but he values what they do have, he lets Sal ease herself into their friendship at her own pace, and she’s demonstrably done that considering it takes her like a whole three or so hours to go from “I never sing anymore” to singing the lyrics to Danny’s ukulele rendition of Hurt.
I think everyone regardless of their social battery needs to indicate to the best of their abilities that their friends matter to them, you can’t just rely on “oh well they know I care so I never have to say it, but Sal isn’t really doing that so much as her social battery is so dead that this is really all she can muster outside of her comfort zone.
Yeah, not sure if this version of Jason is overladen with redeeming qualities. I haven’t read the entire Walkyverse, but it seems so jarring that the swashbuckling normal human (well, as normal as a dimension jumper can be) that can keep up with super powered augmented abductees is such a weeny ponce.
It’s been a long time since I read It’s Walky, but as I recall, Jason was generally ok to have at your back in a fight, but he was a weenie, a ponce, AND a jerk most of the rest of the time.
Sal is unaware that Danny is vulnerable to exactly that sort of manipulation, as Blaine demonstrated.
The real clue, though, is that Danny emphasizes “Do” in the last panel, not “really.” That demonstrates actual worry. A gaslighter would emphasize “really.”
In English? Yes. There are languages that don’t do that and resort to reorderings or to words that emphasize whatever’s next to them, but:
Wait, emphasizing words has meaning?
That means you knew something about words has meaning, but you’re surprised emphasis is one of those things.
Wait, emphasizing words has meaning?
That means you knew emphasizing something has meaning, but you’re surprised words, of all things, can be emphasized to such effect. (Maybe you were thinking of sentences or syllables.)
Wait, emphasizing words has meaning?
That seems to be what you actually mean: you knew words can be emphasized, you just thought it was a random meaningless flourish. Well, it’s not – not in English.
haha nice ^^
reminds me of a certain famous american movie from the 70’s, but i feel like mentioning the title in the context of this conversation would be a total spoiler
Haven’t seen that one, so I can’t tell if this was a serious guess or a joke but either way, no =)
The protagonist plays the saxophone alone in a destroyed apartment at some point, is all that i’ll add. If you’ve seen it I think you can’t not remember that scene.
Again, if you havent seen it I feel like it would spoil a major and pretty cool plot twist for me to name it in the context of the conversation above
Which I mention mostly because its a funny situation to find yourself in ^^
Kind of like when something someone says reminds you of a joke, but because the part of the joke it reminded you of is the punchline, now you can’t really tell the joke because the punchline would be ruined by the mere fact that you were transparently inspired to tell it by whatever was just said, so the joke would just fall flat and the whole interaction would be gauche and unfunny and awkward?
You know what I mean, right? This isnt just a me thing, right?
Yes, it can literally change the entire meaning of the sentence.
In this instance, if say, Danny emphasised the word ‘you’, that would imply he thinks it isn’t her own opinion and that it came from someone else.
If he emphasised ‘trying’ it would come across as a disbelief that she thinks such actions (which would have to exist but be due to misunderstandings/not being aware of it) are purposeful.
If he emphasised ‘actually’ then it comes across as questioning her belief in her perception/strength of her belief.
Emphasising ‘do’ as he actually does, comes across as reaffirming if she is messing with him or actually suspects that is what he is doing.
It can also depend on the actual person’s tone too though. Someone with a condescending tone would come across very differently even emphasising the same words, which would come across very differently from say, the innocent tone of a child.
Oh, that’s just the outward lack of expressiveness developed over decades as a form of masking. Behind it is a barely-contained rage built up as a result of needing to perform the aforesaid masking.
See, on the one hand, Danny’s not doing anything here that’s really wrong. Yes, Sal’s got some boundaries that he’s crossing, but they’re fairly unconventional boundaries and she hadn’t communicated them that clearly prior to this, so he couldn’t be (reasonably) expected to know they were there. And yes, him walking through the “things manipulators say” minefield isn’t the best look, but again, I take that as not knowing what he was walking into.
… what was I saying?
Oh, right. He hasn’t done much that’s wrong here. Arguably nothing, arguably a little bit, but not much.
And’ he’s STILL managed to Dan it up. Without Danning it up.
I can’t tell if that is or isn’t a sign of his aptitude at Danning.
Okay, Danny: just tell Sal you think she’s Amazi-Girl. That’s a totally non-manipulative thing that only someone who is not at all manipulative would say.
What the hell, Sal. Yeah, I feel bad for her, but having a shitty background/parents doesn’t make it okay to take that out on others. TBH, I know I’m in the minority on this, but I thought she was out of line with Asher/Jennifer/Raidah too. There is nothing at ALL wrong with “It’s cool that we’ve moved on from an immature and reckless phase” conversations. And honestly, it’s immature to shit on people for trying to move on, and cruel to act like they can’t.
But I don’t think Sal’s a Bad Person for having issues. I just hope she figures some stuff out soon.
My issues with the Asher/Jennifer interaction were the two of them being smug about it (especially given the hypocrisy – Asher CURRENTLY drives a motorcycle and he’s talking about how Sal’s grown up and put hers away – and the fact that, at 18, they most certainly do not have their shit together as much as they’d like to believed. Realistic, but at best I’m looking at them and going ‘you sweet summer child, no.’) and how thoroughly they were talking OVER Sal, not letting her make this introduction. Multiple characters have introduced her with the ‘got arrested holding up a convenience store’ thing as a fun anecdote, and it’s shitty every time, but she didn’t even get to explain her major or hobby in her own words.
Raidah and Carl had no reason to react any differently, though, Sal’s blowing up was unrelated to either of those points and they DON’T know the critical ‘mob boss grandpa who you STOLE MONEY FROM’ aspect that does make Asher dangerous, if only due to the collateral damage risks when the mob shows up. They were actually innocent bystanders in all that. Though I am… bemused, shall we say, that Raidah ‘she’s a freshman, a child’ was just cheerfully accepting a second-semester freshman who’s also a friend of Joyce’s talking about how she’s grown up and settling down at 18.
Congratulations for getting the point I was trying to make across faster and funnier. That about sums it up.
(I do still think Raidah was on comparatively good behavior but lbr, again, freshmen she doesn’t like are children and freshmen she likes are Incredibly Mature, like her, a sophomore. Not unrealistic cognitive dissonance but HILARIOUS all the same.)
One of the interesting things about Raidah is that she’s very good about being on good behavior most of the time. Sort of the opposite of the characters with “jerk” as their cover persona.
Yeah, I genuinely think Raidah is just as much of a well-intentioned mess as the rest of the cast. My take on her is that she has some severe self-esteem issues and holds grudges, fairly or unfairly, like an elephant. But she’s not, like, evil. Just made some really poor judgement calls.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say ‘evil’ either, but I do think the implication that up until Sarah punched her, she was actively bullying Sarah (certainly she went out of her way on multiple occasions to insult her, and insulted Sarah for trying to Just Not Engage rather than escalate things) docks her ‘well-intentioned’ points in my book. Doesn’t help Dana, doesn’t even get Sarah to rethink her actions if she DID genuinely harm Dana and Raidah knows something we don’t, just feeds Raidah’s desire to be petty and spiteful, and the implication is there was a lot more going on for longer than what we saw. (By comparison, I class Rachel and Roz as ‘the same level as dysfunctional as the cast, but isn’t a POV character so doesn’t come off as sympathetically.’) About on par with Ruth and Jennifer, I suppose, but we’ve seen Ruth at least try to change and Raidah hasn’t given any signs of self-reflection in the same way thusfar. (Which could be lack of POV, but given things like ‘She’s a freshman. A child.’ ‘Yeah but so’s he.’ and her ‘here’s how I would Maturely Handle things instead of getting jealous’ versus the reality, Jennifer being the exact same kind of Smug Maturity Above It All and Raidah taking it at face value… well, again. No signs of self-reflection as yet. And so, firmly in the role of antagonist who nonetheless is the wronged party in the Jacob arc and didn’t do anything wrong during the Asher/Jennifer/Sal exchange. But I think Jennifer’s likely to be hovering there right now, herself.)
Sure! And Sal’s response to, uh, call them out, insinuate that Asher would mistreat Jennifer, and then flip out and double down on how Dangerous she is, is completely not self-indulgent or immature at all.
Look, I’m on board with the fact that their conversation was self-indulgent and a lot less mature than they seemed to think, but Sal going off on them – for being introduced(?!) – seems no better. (Also, “they used to knock off stores together,” implicating Asher as well as her and implying they’ve both grown up is much, much better than “lol she got arrested for robbery. And she has the right to be irritated about it – there IS a lot of baggage there, but again that’s not baggage it’s fair to chuck at the heads of everyone in the vicinity!)
I think we basically agree here? I thinks so. I’m a little dys-something right now, but your reply makes sense. From Raidah and them’s perspective, Sal flew off the handle at nothin’ much, an deven from our omniperspective lense she kinda went there on purpose to start at least some kinda shit and that already wasn’t good to begin with. Sal definitely wasn’t wrong to throw that at Billifer an d Asher but she also wasn’t super right in the way she did it. She’s been on edge a lot lately and I’m worried a little bit about her. The other group may have been sucking their own cocks, but I admit at least a little shred of their upset with her was definitely warranted, since she came flyin’ out of the aether with a fight in mind. Nobody really is wrong there, autofellatio aside.
I don’t jump into the comments section here, because usually my take on the main characters is “Well-intentioned 18-20 year olds, whose issues make for interesting drama,” and a lot of the discourse seems to be more along the lines of “Literal angels/saints and devils/monsters, thrown together in a college setting.” And it was weird to me to see that thrown at Asher when he hadn’t actually done anything wrong.
But yeah, I think Sal’s just having a bad day and everything and everyone seems to be determined to stomp up and down on her stress triggers.
Sal was out of line, yeah. She went over there because she is kinda sorta desperately lonely and wanted to see Asher, and then when it hit her point blank that Asher isn’t going to give her what she wants (which, given she had the exact same reaction to Jason, I think it’s clear what she wants right now) she suddenly flares up over past grievances she’s previously stated she had dealt with.
Sal was being rude and kinda petulant, sure, but she was being rude and kinda petulant to a bunch of assholes (and Carl, who did nothing wrong) who also had no reason not to be rude and snobby back at this weirdo riding her bicycle who seemingly swung on by to yell at them.
Not really. Jennifer wasn’t intentionally malicious with her initial comments about Sal “settling down and growing up”, even if it was coming from a place of “the Sal I know is flawed and broken, like I was previously” it’s still the kind of thing that’s broadly hurtful and has to be phrased correctly if you don’t meant it as an insult, and while I don’t think Jennifer meant to be insulting that’s because Jennifer’s a moron (whereupon she finds out Sal’s jealous and actively relishes in it, because she’s an asshole) who thinks she has it all figured out.
Other than Sal, Jennifer and Asher the only thing any of them say before Sal gets aggro (and she got aggro because she came to see Asher, saw him with Jennifer and talking about how she made him an honest man and yada yada) is when Raidah asks her if she’s in choir, which, like, that’s not a malicious question.
Sample size, yes. Cross-section, maybe not. I suspect she was sent to therapists whose end goal was to mash her into Linda’s “Sally” mold, not help her on her own terms.
Non-falsibiable hypotheses are the best kind, because they let you be right no matter what. For example, Dumbing of Age is secretly an essay by the Shortpacked! version of Gerard Way, meant to illustrate how scary teenagers can be.
“Sal, I like you. I just want to give you things. You incur no obligation from eating at my table.” Something like that, D-unit! Hey, new theory: Sal is a fae creature, everything’s gotta be a bargain, can’t stand being indebted…
I wouldn’t really blame Danny for just walking away without a word and going about the rest of his day like normal. This is a no-win situation where everything he does is wrong and the only way through it involves way more patience than anyone should be expected to have. Whether Sal means to do it or not, that’s the situation she’s put him in, and I get why but things can suck even if everyone involved has the best reasons on Earth. He’s being weirdly generous, which can be a red flag and clearly is one for Sal, but Linda’s irredeemable shitfuckery isn’t his problem and it’s not fair to make it so.
Yes. But I start to think that Danny loves complicated situations and to have relationships with someone full of complexes and conflits. It’s not a good thing, but….
Sal, Danny has issues (don’t we all) but overall he’s a good guy. While ‘you could do worse’ isn’t the stuff romantic legends are forged of, it’s at least a place to start to see if something’s there.
Danny is more and more suspect… But Sal still talk with him… I think they are having a good time together and Sal is messing with him ♡. Even if this is a very complicated way to have fun.
That’s the trick, innit? They try to act all nice and “reasonable”, so you won’t question their bullshit. And then when you start questioning normal people’s basic kindness, they turn that around on you, too. That’s why I can’t really fault Sal here. I wish she’d dial it back a bit, sure, but I totally 100% get why she hasn’t and/or won’t.
But he was nice. That’s something assholes do to ruin other people’s lives, and he’s doing it, so therefore he’s an asshole out to ruin her life. Never mind that she doesn’t even seem to actually be accusing him of any such thing and they’re in the middle of a conversation that could take days to wrap up.
Nope, sorry, every act of kindness is to be scrutinised, catastrophised, and furthermore villainised. If someone who’s been generally kind to you with no apparent ulterior motive or malice, you need to treat them like they’re worthless abusive garbage who want nothing more than for you to suffer. Pushing everyone away all the time and at any cost is the only way to be safe, you see.
It do be like that though. The worst part is that if allowed to continue Danny’s gifts are going to become increasingly… heavy if that makes sense. Its just not a pattern that’s healthy/sustainable.
I think nearly 11 years of comics has led Danny to a point in his character development where he’s not going to ignore the feelings of a woman he cares about in pursuit of his own dream narrative, and especially not on those steps again.
He’s not giving her flowers to impose a narrative. He’s not telling her she could change her mind about leaving for Yale or that he loves Amber and not Amazi-Girl, he bought her some flowers both to remove the transaction that Sal tried to turn the bike into (which, like, I think that’s Sal’s B more than it is Danny’s, I think it’s okay that Danny had a problem with that) and to emphasize that being nice to her is something he wants to do entirely out of his own will, something he’s now emphasizing to her while she’s insistent this is Danny revealing all along he’s been using her to gain leverage or ownership of her.
Like I said, cluelessness.
Doesn’t trying to remove the transaction make it worse: “I’m uncomfortable with you giving me something this big, let me pay you back at least partially” “Hey, I bought you more with what you gave me to pay me back.”
Should be obvious that’s not going to make her more comfortable, but then – clueless.
Danny did try to make it clear that Sal didn’t have to accept the flowers, which could have been a way of trying to be more respectful in giving her something when her boundaries still weren’t as clear to him.
It makes you come across as a creep, whether that’s your intent or not.
Because plenty of people use the excuse of you not having spelled everything out to the last detail to transgress those boundaries.
To be clear, Danny isn’t doing that intentionally. He is just trying to be nice, with only minor other intentions most likely, but he is still crossing those boundaries and that’s messing with Sal.
“I’m uncomfortable with you giving me something this big, let me pay you back at least partially”
So did you write this on purpose or do you really think that’s all it is when in the strip from yesterday Sal clearly vocalizes the root of the problem?
No, I don’t think it’s all it is, but it’s all Danny would have known before the strip yesterday. You know, when he decided to use that to go buy her something else.
Because Sal turned his gift into a transaction, so he tried again with “hey I bought flowers, do you want them? You don’t have to take them.” Sal didn’t tell him not to buy gifts, she took his gift and then paid for it even though Danny wanted to give a gift to his friend who is really sad.
So if you’re wondering if Danny learned anything from giving a gift to Sal, there ya go, unless now we’re at the point where Danny “comes off at a creep” because he offered flowers that he bought.
The gift of a bicycle rhymes a bit too much with Linda and the motorcycle. Sal is right to be suspicious when it’s followed up with flowers. The anger she has after Jennifer and Asher is being aimed at Danny. It’s a bit unfair to Danny since she would be kinder about this otherwise, but she would tell him off in any case.
This is where I would normally post a lengthy explanation of how devious and manipulative Danny is, attempting to control his girlfriends through faux-nice behavior (as well as his part in Mike’s death).
Can we stop glossing over the fact that Danny literally shot Mike in the head and was looking Ethan square in the eye the entire time? This is a lot more serious than something like a terribly rude comment or minimising Mike’s suffering in a severely misguided attempt to hit on Ethan. He straight-up murdered the guy, and then we got a week’s worth of strips dedicated to showing how horrific he’d secretly been to Dorothy and Amber behind the scenes. Why does it feel like nobody’s acknowledging how wretched Danny’s been?
I’m suddenly having flashbacks to the end of Danny and Amber/Amazi-Girl’s relationship where would express himself with the best of intentions but it wasn’t “following the rules” he didn’t even know existed. I am not blaming Amber for “having a need for rigid conformity to rules thanks to a lifetime of chaotic abuse and no safety”, but now that I think about it I guess Danny’s type of lady is someone who doesn’t come out and say what they’re feeling assuming it’ll all work itself out before Danny does something boneheaded.
Your icon is appropriate, because framed that way, she’s potentially turning into Malaya in a way. Automatically assuming everyone’s being “fakey” with her and not letting herself trust anyone because of course they’re not presenting what they really want up front.
Eh, I think Malaya’s paranoia is more inward and fueled by their confusion over their gender identity. Malaya thinks they are fake, whereas Sal thinks everyone else is at risk of being fake when dealing with her.
They were, and are, straight up accusing you of being an abuser, and accusing you of attempting to use autism as a shield.
Despite what they’re claiming, that’s actually a perfectly legitimate thing to blow up about, because they were already *directly attacking you*. You were not, in fact, having a blow up about the comic, they were directly calling you a terrible person. That is Not Okay.
Yeah, you did also go over the line in your blowup in response to that, to be true. But them attempting to imply that you had no reason to get emotional because ‘it’s just a comic forum comments section’, when.. they were.. taking it seriously enough to start *accusing other people of being abusers* is kind of fucked up.
no i know i said a shitty slur and that i shoudl know beter than to say because ive had it said at and about me for twenty eight fuckin years and im very very sorry about that especially to all you other autistic/nd folks. not one single other thing i said to that one tho
Mod, You may also want to delete this comment chain too, I am unsure. With the original threads also gone, this is probably hard to parse for anyone else. I’m cool with whatever decision you make on that!
I worry about this when giving people gifts. Like, I really LIKE giving people stuff, but if it costs money, I know some people will feel uncomfortable. I’m glad Sal is communicating that.
Some people just don’t like gifts like that much, or still have to learn how to handle that, and that’s fine.
…on another note, that is also something someone who would not try to manipulate you would say. That’s why it works in a way to manipulate people lol
I pointed out that a specific kind of boundary violation wasn’t okay. It was a more general observation with a side of “Check yourself if you’ve done this because it’s not okay.”
And for that, I wound up on the receiving end of a lot of personal attacks, and straight up misconstruals of what I was saying.
At no point did I ever claim that things mattered less because they happened in the comments section of a webcomic.
Everything matters.
And a lot of good discussion about boundaries got deleted with that thread.
I’m gonna ask you just stop talking to Taffy, please. You’re upset with each other, you are hurting each other, you’re not going to get anything productive out of it.
Like, “you’re throwing up red flags for being an abuser” and especially “pulling autism as an excuse”, nah, that ain’t okay. You don’t get to say that shit to anyone.
They’re trying to both claim you shouldn’t be taking this so seriously because it’s the comments forum of a webcomic. Out the other side of they’re mouth they’re accusing you of being an abuser for comments and statements made *in that same forum*, and straight up attributing to you arguments you have not made.
And if you have RSD, I’m sure as fuck it’s firing it off (it certainly was for me!). Continuing to engage with them is not healthy, because they seem to have decided to try and start personally attacking people.
Anyway, it’s clear you’ve decided you’re on a Holy Crusade or some shit, and sure as hell haven’t been reading responses in good faith, so I’m done with you now.
(Yo also posting it here b/c I want to be sure: The “Holy Crusade” statement at the end of the last chain is not directed at you in any way. Clicked on the wrong reply and fucked up, because I am an incredible hypocrite and was not taking my own advice–but which I shall now take.)
A conversation on Sal’s boundaries vs Danny’s persistence, and on whether it was on Sal to make her boundaries clearer or on Danny to exercise better judgement, and on whether it makes a difference if one reads Danny as being on the spectrum, burst into flames over an unfortunately worded sentence that could be, and immediately was, construed as an accusation of being an abuser using autism as an excuse.
Again, I believe the wording was clumsy, there was likely a lack of sensitivity or alertness to common and damaging stereotypes about ND/ASD folks, and there was definitely a lot of strong feelings and painful memories on both sides, leaving little space for any benefit of the doubt.
I hope this account is fair enough and doesn’t hurt anyone’s feelings. I felt very sorry for and sympathetic to all involved.
I think it’s kind of impossible not to talk about subject matter close to your heart and not have a visceral reaction, like, Been There, but if you’re engaging with someone here saying something wrong I think it’s better to attack their argument then to tell them to fuck off, and that’s if attacking their argument is worth having to dwell on it.
I mean Sal isn’t entirely wrong in these lines would sound suspicious to someone used to being manipulated and shit… but I think we can all agree with Danny that he isn’t smart enough to be this manipulative 😛
Reminds me of that Jaiden Animations video about relationships. Not everyone who manipulates is even aware that they’re being manipulative (though perhaps it’s better to point it out anyway).
That’s an interesting point, but I struggle to believe someone can be manipulative without intent. I’ve always understood manipulation to be a deliberate set of behaviors filtered through a facade of outwardly reasonable actions. On the other hand, I”m reminded of, of all things, an episode of Rick & Morty. In I think Season 3, Rick takes Jerry to a swanky cosmic truck stop/amusemrnt park. At some point, Jerry fucks things up with a botched assassination attempt and he and Rick are temporarily stranded in the jungle. While they’re there, Rick tells Jerry in no uncertain terms that he thinks Jerry, whether he intends it or not, is a sort of predator, leeching off of Beth by being pathetic and “harmless”, and thereby worming his way out of any need for agency or personal power, which he instead gets from someone stronger than himself.
I’m not sure where I’m going with that, but it probably goes along with what you said? Introspection is important, kids.
Rick is right that Jerry’s is/was a pathetic parasite (I’ve fallen behind on any possible character development), but take Rick’s arguments with a grain of salt. The man canonically believes love and emotional attachment are toxic personality traits.
That said people can totally be abusive or manipulative without knowing it. For example, Linda undoubtedly considers herself a wonderful parent.
I would hesitate to start to start labeling people as “manipulative” without evidence of maliciousness (or at least negative impacts) because then you get into a grey area of what’s the difference between being manipulative vs being convincing or charismatic and other such problems.
Yeah, whether or not she believes that she’s abusive, it’s highly unlikely for her to change anytime soon.
She believes what she does because she grew up with under the influence of those ideals (and may have even been abused herself); if she didn’t see that this way of thinking was distorted, it’s because everything else in her life was distorted around it to make it look reasonable.
That said, there are probably some MASSIVE distortions holding her reality together, and cognitive dissonance more or less guarantees that there aren’t changing anytime soon. When we have a heavy personal investment in a fallacious idea, we don’t just happily give it up when faced with inconsistent facts. We are more likely to distort or deny the facts to preserve the idea in question.
The plastic-ass-hell ideas held by Linda were probably injected into her so early on that they developed muscular connections to her sense of identity at many levels — self, family, community, even nationality. When those ideas are challenged, she feels threatening tremors in ALL those areas.
I had discussions like this with my fiance, who also came from a really toxic home. Her family would try to tell her I was manipulating her, so from her perspective it was two sides potentially manipulating her – how could she tell what was true? Anything I said could potentially be interpreted as double-manipulation.
What I ended up doing was encourage her to talk to other friends and her therapist about things, since that way, she’d have an outside perspective on things that I couldn’t control. While she did do that, it was also helpful to her to know that I was the party willing to let my perspective stand up to outside scrutiny, while her parents were not.
You know what this is really fucking good advice and if I ever find myself in a situation where my word can’t be trusted in this scenario I will encourage them to seek third, fourth and fifth opinions.
‘Cause like either I’m right and confirm that, or I’m wrong and was leading them astray and they find the answer they want.
*DING DING DING* We have a winner. Exactly. Apply the scientific method. If someone doesn’t want you replicating their experiment or looking at their data, you have reasonable cause to be highly suspicious of their claims. Same with peoples behaviour. If they aren’t willing to open themselves up for critique, then *something* likely won’t hold up.
n.b. this is *not* the same as the police state “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of”, specifically because you’re dealing with individual things on a case by case (or possibly class-action) basis. It’s more like a trial, with a jury, and maybe a peanut gallery.
You don’t have to tell me what it is. But IS there something a person can say or do that will help you realize they’re NOT out to manipulate you? Because if not that’s a problem, for you.
If they say they’re not out to get you, they’re just lying because “that’s exactly what they want you to think”.
If they cave and (sarcastically or sincerely) say they are out to get you, that’s either a confession or misdirection to make you think they’re just being sarcastic (because they’re really out to get you).
Positive interactions over time just leave the “waiting for it” Sword of Damocles hanging over your head.
I completely understand why Sal is skeptical about no-strings-attached generosity, but if she lets it fester into paranoia it’s going to be a roadblock again and again and again, stopping her from receiving or enjoying the companionship she really wants. Unfortunately, it’s something she has to face herself, not something that’s going to heal on its own. Rejecting therapy doesn’t help, either.
If she likes Danny that way she could offer to buy him chocolates or something, if she doesn’t she could tell him to find someone else to give it to. If she’s on the edge she could tell him she hopes they brighten his room.
If she’s on the edge but leaning towards liking him she could buy a couple vases and split the flowers.
Although while she might be overreacting he is testing her bounderies right now.
As someone trying to cope with it, trauma’s a bloody bear. My partner of some years, the first person I’ve really loved in even more years, dropped a paycheck-and-then-some on a nice just-because surprise for me. And even all this time later, even after therapy and antidepressants and lifestyle changes and positive interactions, even though the two of us can technically afford things like that once every couple years or so, I still just all but threw it back in her face. Not because it was something I didn’t want or even really because I felt manipulated, but because on some level I still have enormous difficulty accepting sincere generosity and warm feelings as they are intended. “Nobody, *nobody* would do this for *me* without an ulterior motive.” Before you ask, we have at least a moderately healthy relationship and we’ve had a couple difficult but productive talks about it since I reflexively deadpan-rejected the gift. But damn, I simply couldn’t….I just couldn’t take the gift with a smile, and that still breaks me up.
There’s no magic set of words that can demonstrate good faith. Unfortunately, Danny’s statements are ALSO things that people say with the best of intentions. But the “I’m too dumb to play games” thing is a classic manipulative strategy. Obfuscating stupidity, self-effacing humor, false humility. Politicians, salesmen, cult leaders, comedians, and good old-fashioned serial abusers all get enormous mileage out of self-critical disclaimers. Again, self-criticism can be an expression of actual humility or doubt, and even a technically dishonest statement can be wielded for beneficent effect.
In this case, instead of saying, “Would I lie to you?” Danny’s saying, “Could I lie to you?” which is a deceptively similar question. Either way, it is neither proof of good or bad faith — that’s ultimately something best determined by reviewing both their behavior and the explanations they offer for what they do.
Honestly if anything would demonstrate his good faith it would be him doing stuff for her in the past and not using it against her.
Problem is pointing that out would invalidate it.
Loading ...
“How can I PROVE to you I’m trustworthy?”
“FOUR-FOUR”
“I mean, if giving me the flowers back would make you feel more comf–”
“FIVE-FIVE!”
“I’m just gonna go away now.”
“Perfect score Wonderbread!”
Also I’d like to imagine this continues indefinetly. Like Danny will be talking to Joe days from now.
“So your mom called about something, I’m just letting you know dude.”
“654-654!”
Ah, but see the real manipulation is convincing you you’ve realized the manipiulation and can’t be manipulated thus falling for the true manipulation!
Sal should approach this from a more scientific standpoint.
What else would she observe in Danny IF he was actually manipulative?
she should look for data that falsifies her hypothesis, not supports it. what you’re describing isn’t science, it’s economics.
So obviously the thing to do is make herself vulnerable and give him the opportunity to manipulate her. Then she’ll know.
Nah, she doesn’t necessarily need to be manipulated for her to know if he’s manipulative.
All she needs to do is think of an observation or design an experiment that would have a different result depending on whether or not he was actually manipulative.
Best approach I ever heard.
Nothing fails harder to win over a crowd than brass tacks-economics, and manipulators focus on what wins over crowds. Protecting yourself from manipulators can’t realistically be learned through anything you can openly get to or win over the public at large with, as that would be like trying to beat a white pointer at a head-to-head biting duel.
Do you really think letting herself vulnerable like that is the only way to find out whether or not Danny is actually manipulative?
She needs to approach this like a scientist — she needs to think up something she can observe, or carefully design a series of experiments, where the results that would occur if Danny WAS manipulative would be DIFFERENT from the results that would occur if Danny WASN’T manipulative.
A series of experiments that can’t do THAT is as good as a pregnancy test that always reads positive or negative — absolutely USELESS! USELESS! MUTA MUTA MUTA MUTA MU TA TA TA TA TA!!!!
Man, BDNF is one hell of a drug.
The real manipulation is the friends we made along the way
“You don’t have any friends!” – Gollum
Man, that dude had some issues.
I mean, he had killed his besty. Poor Deagol…
Deagol got what was fuckin’ comin’ to ‘im, the little prick.
That last panel Exasperated Sal face is kinda adorable, though.
Poor danny xD
Also poor Sa. being burned that much has obviously hurt her.
And yet Sal remains
She does.
Hoping Sal lets up by the next strip. She has not been nailing her interactions today.
Sal’s lack of nailing might be a contributing factor.
Thought of that as soon as I posted. Again I will hold out hope for the next strip.
I wouldn’t expect that to happen that soon.
Yeah, but maybe there will be a jump cut.
no please not another weatheral season sckip. I still wanna know aobut hallowen
Now all he’s got to do is manipulate her into believing he’s not trying to manipulate her … Wait a second!
Once you can fake sincerity, you’re home free.
I should have said this earlier but I have conflicted feelings on Danny looking nice with the black coat and blue scarf.
Because on one hand he’s hot and I don’t know how to process that, on the other hand I feel betrayed that Danny moved on from the all-important no fashion sense energy that is inherent to bisexuals.
Looks white and gold to me.
Go to your room.
Look, Dorothy didn’t break up with him THAT long ago. Maybe she got him the scarf to go with a coat he already had last Christmas, and it’s too warm and toasty to get rid of.
“all-important no fashion sense energy that is inherent to bisexuals”
I feel personally attacked
like Bowie? Or Iggy Pop?
The three rules of bisexuality are:
– You can never dress yourself to save your life.
– Your hair is always bad but you make it work.
– Puns.
Tatsuya Suou from Persona 2 does the first two but fails the latter due to being a silent protagonist (though he gets an honourable mention for communicating with demons by making motorcycle noises with his mouth), Zagreus from Hades deliberately exposes part of his chest to enemy attacks so he can show off his pecs so that’s a grey area but then he has Shonen Anime hair.
Finally there’s Danny, who with his dapper hat, party in the back haircut, and implementation of bi puns, has evolved into the ultimate form of bisexuality.
This hits so hard. I feel like I’m reading a bio I wrote for myself.
@Moonie: I know, right?
@Spencer: I’ll have you know that my fashion sense is perfectly fine, thank you very much. Just because I’m usually too lazy to put in the effort doesn’t mean I don’t know HOW to look good.
Wait, queer people can know how to look good? Or how “good” looks? Fuck, I’d be unstoppable with that power.
It’s all good as long as you still liberally engage in puns.
okay when we sober up some, I”ll probably have a good response to this that pust the “liberal” and “pun” together in a very semi-witty manor.
ummmmmm “engage liberal puns”? liek eat the ritch and something about wellfare or rent? fuck it’s Right There
I personally see navy blue.
Is that anything like dead people?
Haley Joel Osment is honestly irreplaceable. Sora we gotta use the dead ppl
The Sixth Sense but all the ghosts are characters who are also Sora.
Wow, Sal!
Did that motorcycle have a stick for a seat?!
Ordinarily, the phrase “Who Hurt You” would be the next thing typed, but, I guess the answers to that question are all too obvious!
Am I insane or did the comment section shrink?
“Yes” and “I’unno”, respectively.
Maybe. I wouldn’t know
You are, but that’s not why the comments seemed to shrink.
The comments just got out of the pool.
Answers to the second question vary, but the consensus on the first one seems pretty strong.
Come to think of it, if Sal had her motorcycle because Linda pulled strings, is that also why Asher has his? I kinda hope Gramps / the mob doesn’t have power over the dean.
I don’t think we know for sure what year Asher is in/credits he has (if they count it by credits), so it’s possible strings didn’t need to be pulled. If they did, they wouldn’t necessarily have to be over the dean– that was just Linda’s connection, but I doubt he regularly gets involved with students’ vehicle permits.
He’s an underclassmen, probably still his first year. I think he’s the same age as Sal and he doesn’t seem the type to have skipped a grade
That’s quiet possible, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he’s a sophomore. For me, that’d still fall under “underclassmen,” but it can be used differently especially, again, if counting by credits. I also can’t find it listed as an actual IU policy listed anywhere, so I can’t really clarify that way.
All that said, it does make the most sense narratively if strings are being pulled, with this coming up for Sal and his motorcycle being shown.
Hey, you handle the parking permits right? If you don’t mind me asking, what do they pay you a month? Your kidding! How do they get away with that? You know the policy on undergraduate parking is kind of silly; what would you say to half a months salary that definitely wasn’t stolen from the Korean mob. You know, if there were a little error.
It also could be he usually parks it off-campus outside except for class (he wasn’t riding it at the dorm earlier, after all,) and the campus traffic cops don’t check outside the academic buildings as much. Or something to that effect.
But yeah, I think it’s either mob connections (and seeing it this semester might be an early hint Asher’s actively involved again) or rulebreaking/significantly bending, though I could see him being an upperclassman given he was hanging out with Raidah. (‘Upperclassmen’ usually tends to refer to juniors and seniors in my experience, but if he took a shitload of AP credits or something it’d be possible for him to have started with Sarah and company and technically be considered a junior.)
Or not even a shitload if he 1. took summer classes and 2. just reached enough credits this semester. (I think I just don’t want it to be mob ties, even though that seems quite possible.)
I’m going with ‘Asher doesn’t care about the rules (and is playing just this shy of actively breaking them, because the rules only cover dorm parking and/or academic buildings’ parking lots aren’t checked as much)’ until established otherwise. Him being a year older than the Walkerton kids AND being at least a semester ahead of his actual year by credits is more assumptions than ‘parks off-campus when he’s not going to class’, and the blackmail/his discussion with Sal about stealing tuition both suggested stealing from Gramps was recent – the last few months, not over a year ago. (Him being more than a year ahead in credits would leave him a lot less time for Casual Cool Guy-ing with Jennifer and joking about skipping class with her, so I’m ruling that out.)
Wasn’t Asher supposed to be a little older than Sal, or am I conflating the comic with headcanon again?
I don’t know if we’ve been given anything specifically about Asher’s age…
But in the flashback episode where Sal tried to knock off a store, it looked like she was 13. Meanwhile, Asher was hanging out with people who were old enough to drive (implying they were 16?) So it wouldn’t surprise me if he were actually 2-3 years older than Sal.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-9-comic/01-flyin-to-the-red/siiiventeen/
I’d got the impression that at least one of those was Asher’s brother, so he was likely the kid tagging along and bring the Everything gets much creepier if he’s that much older than her.
Leaving that in, but I looked a bit deeper and he says here that he was 13 at the time.
Two to thee years older isn’t creepier for college age. If the guy is three years older, that probably puts them at about the same level of maturity.
No – 2-3 years old when she was 13. The whole friendship, grooming for crime thing, would take on a whole different cast if he’s 16 and she’s 13.
Not relevant, since he wasn’t.
Ah I overlooked that comic.
So, it does look like Sal and Asher are roughly the same age (both around 13 at the time of the robbery.) Its still possible that Asher started at unversity before Sal (based on what dates their birthdays fell on), but there is probably some other reason Asher has his bike, other than “he’s older so is allowed to have it on campus”.
Yep. Could be mob, could be rulebreaking, could maybe be an absurd amount of credits elsewhere but DOROTHY isn’t introduced as doing the degree in three years thing, so I doubt it, y’know?
So I assume rulebreaking.
Losing trust is a bongo.
I see where Sal is coming from. This is exactly what repeated abuse and manipulation does.
Targets like her have learned all the little phrases and gestures that signify a coming storm. In response to these stimuli, their defenses explode into overreaction.
Unlearning these deeply conditioned responses can be a tough, lengthy process. Ongoing contact with Linda and other toxic people, which constantly reactivate these responses, may very well be sabotaging Sal’s recovery.
Yep. Simply trusting people without extensive proof is for people who don’t have a lot of toxic twits trying to control their lives
Yup, this is exactly what Linda’s brand of “I’m not listening to you because I know what’s best” emotional abuse does to its victims.
Danny’s not used to that, his parents just straight-up bully him.
Still, I understand his reaction to Sal’s hyperactive defense. My broken, miswired brain has stuck me on his side of this conversation before. The “what am I doing wrong?”, “yes that exactly!” exchange is all too familiar.
Would Linda say “I’m not smart enough to be manipulative”? somehow I feel like her ego wouldn’t allow that.
She wouldn’t, but many manipulators do. Linda’s the big one, but Sal’s probably dealt with more than one person who has tried to play her like a fiddle.
I do think she’s being a little silly here, but one of my dearest friends has known me for years, and she still second-guesses kind gestures from me and other friends at points. It’s an extremely difficult thing to unlearn, so I sympathize with Sal.
Yeah it doesn’t help the process of unlearning these conditioned refluxes when she’s still somehow obligated to interact with Linda, “Jennifer” and the Toxic Crusaders.
Linda wouldn’t but I bet Asher would.
Agreed. Linda’s the narcissistic type of goofus. Danny, with his needy self-debasement and parents who brought him up with a ‘FIND A GIRL WHO’S HEADING FOR A BETTER LIFE AND CLING TO HER LIKE A BARNACLE, MAN! THERE’S NO OTHER WAY!!!’ approach to success, leans much more toward a codependent type, and if he’s a manipulator, he’s not a very good one.
Ok Sal heres the thing. Linda has bought you and she does own you. You can say whatever you like and make whatever futile actions you want but as long as you’re in uni and Lindas paying for it you belong to her.
You could drop out of uni and have nothing more to with Lindas money. You could enlist and earn tuition assistance. You could work and study at the same time.
But at the moment Linda owns you and your soul and will always own you until you stop accepting her money
Or since you already accept her money then why not try to take as much as she’ll give you until you graduate
That…sure is a comment you posted.
One of many.
Admittedly some of this might be influenced by my current work day situation. If I posted this from home I might word it slightly different.
What does this mean?
I’m a Corrections Officer. Hard day at work so possibly some venting going on.
That. Explains. Everything.
Tell you what.
You tell me how you think it explains everything and I’ll tell you how accurate you were or weren’t
” If everything you’ve practiced with is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. “
— Abraham Maslow
One heart attack (survived), one suicide attempt (survived) and one prisoner took a pretty nasty beating is what my day was like today.
I know you probably think that Corrections Officers are little more than uneducated, bullying thugs that get off on treating prisoners badly and so of course we see everything through the lens of prison life.
I hear it all the time especially from people on the left
I hear it from people that have never worked in a prison, that’ve never been to prison, that get their information from TV, someone they know, a relative, from the movies, whatever.
What people don’t hear about is what its like to have to calm down and reassure the prisoner that what they imagined they heard on TV isn’t going to happen and they’re not going to die and that they can eat their lunch (that was a weird situation)
Or what to do with the younger, larger, stronger and meaner prisoner that currently has their foot in the door and is trying to come through that door and you want to close that door. Do you:
A. Kick his foot back and close the door or
B. Hold the door so that he cant come through but you cant close it either
Or you hear the break break code blue call and you head to the wing and you’re confronted with a riot and your hearts beating (through the effort of getting to the unit and adrenaline) and you’ve got your pepper spray out (we only have pepper spray) and you start coughing and your own eyes starting watering because of the thick haze of spray in the ear
Or dealing with the prisoner that breaks down in the visits hall because his missus has left him and taken the kids and put a court order in so no more visits from his kids
Then hearing the same prisoner talk about how unfair life is to him and how he shouldn’t be in prison without a second thought to the victims of his crime.
Or being handcuffed (for five hours because the other officers couldn’t handle it emotionally) to the prisoner and trying to keep her stitches from popping open while she goes off and won’t take the meds she needs to calm down
Or reading the latest one sided hit piece in the media about how Corrections Officers are mistreating prisoners even though its the prisoner that decides how they get treated in prisons
Or having to go hands on with the prisoner thereby causing hours of paperwork to be filled out and in the end the prisoner only wanted to be removed from the unit
Or working through the pandemic (no shutdown for us) and only getting a word of praise from our minister, on facebook, when we request it from him
Or doing constant observations on a prisoner (because of the strong possibility of self harm) and getting abused for the next hour (5 minute observations) by, as the media described, Drug Kingpin
But if all you’ve got is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.
No, not even close.
Dude, I don’t even know who or what to believe anymore honestly it comes to this kind of stuff, media or otherwise. At this rate, anything could become “the truth” if enough people believe it.
To you and the people you work with, you’re doing the best you can.
To the other side, cops are the devil.
To me, for now I’m just comfortable with not knowing. It’s better to admit uncertainty, then to act on pretended knowledge.
But just for the record, I don’t think THIS particular comic is a good place to look for sympathetizers.
I think you might be right
Holy fuck dude, you’re made of sterner stuff than I am to be able to put up with that every day.
This just reinforces my belief that we need to strengthen our social programs, so they can intervene and get these people help before they’re desperate enough to turn to crime and/or substance abuse as a means to an end. Unfortunately, the “war on drugs” and “war on crime” years shifted that burden onto law enforcement, who was then only given violent rhetoric and escalation as tools. Beat cops’ work should look like Adam-12 more than Robocop.
If we’ve learned anything from the American Prohibition, the “war on drugs” isn’t going to help to elevate social problems at all. It gives too much power to organized crime, and those kinds of laws by their very nature are virtually unenforceable.
We all know drugs won the “war on drugs”.
I’m saying treating it as an opportunity to “crack down” and militarize beat cops was a mistake because it’s only going to galvanize an “us vs them” divide between civilians and law enforcement.
I’m willing to concede that it’s a hard job and that it’s probably often misrepresented, but shit like “its the prisoner that decides how they get treated in prisons” doesn’t help your cause.
@Needfuldoer: But that was the point. Not a mistake. A strategy.
And not really “civilians” but black people.
So what drew you to that line of work?
@thejeff: True. Unfortunately, cruelty is the point more often than not. :/
Yeah this sounds like my brother’s situation though and you’re right
Woah, no, parents do not own their children, even if the parents are helping their children.
Sal will certainly cast off all help as soon as she can, but she shouldn’t need to threaten her education to prove a point… which she won’t even prove successfully. If Sal stops taking Linda’s tuition assistance, Linda will just move the goals so that Sal owes Linda for all the help she’s ever given previously — including normal stuff that was Linda’s responsibility as a parent (food, shelter, schooling), and stuff that was not helpful at ALL (“helping” Sal make choices, sending her to Tennessee, etc).
Linda will always claim that Sal owes her, but that doesn’t make it true.
Sal can stop all that right by not accepting any help from Linda, by cutting Linda out of her life right now.
If Sal has no contact with Linda, Linda has no hold over Sal.
The question is how badly does Sal want that.
I get what you’re saying but I feel it’s important to phrase this in a way that doesn’t leave the implication of “Sal needs to be brave and emancipate herself, that’s her responsibility.”
When a parent and child relationship gets as broken as Linda and Sal’s, it leaves you with a lot of shattered pieces to reflect on. Sal could do these things, she is a legal adult, but that comes at a massive risk and an even more massive cost to the rest of her life, let alone her immediate future, that it’s simply unfeasible to ask that of a 19-year old.
It is, as the kids say, a bit of a bruh moment for me.
I guess its a little frustrating in that she wants freedom from Linda but won’t take it herself (and fair enough, its a scary decision to make) yet is, by her own actions, taking stuff from Linda but not taking all she could be taking (and so only hurting herself)
Hell Linda would probably be glad Sal isn’t riding her bike
Okay but doing that means:
– Sal isn’t in college anymore
– Sal loses future job prospects
– Sal doesn’t have a place to sleep
– Sal doesn’t have a dollar to her name
Like, it’s not that Hollywood. When you storm out the door from your abuser, the credits don’t actually roll. People don’t trap themselves with abusive providers because they just aren’t brave enough. Financial abuse, of both partners and children, is real.
Incorrect.
It does make all that harder of course but Uni is not the be all and end of life.
If you want to go to Uni then good for you but you don’t have to go if you don’t want to, you don’t have to go immediately after high school as you can delay
As for job prospects, the current rate of unemployment in Indiana is 4.1% which seems pretty low to me so finding a job shouldn’t be an issue
again not saying its easy but Sal does have options and I suspect she thinks she doesn’t.
With all due respect, you’re speaking about this situation as though Sal is – or even can be – a rational actor from within this dynamic. She is not. Really the only thing she has going for her is that she’s got enough self-awareness to KNOW she’s not – but that is not the same thing as being able to overcome her irrationality.
Sal has been the target of emotional and psychological abuse for literally her entire life. Worse, her abuser was in one of the most unassailable positions from which to enact that pattern of abuse it is possible to be – her own mother. The person most people trust more implicitly than any other in their own lives, the person the world tells her in a thousand ways large and small should be the stable rock at her core – instead gaslights and denigrates her.
Sal WANTS to trust people, most of all she wants to trust her mother. But she KNOWS, from a lifetime of hard, painful experience, that she can’t. So she’s full of both frustration and ambivalence. She feels trapped and wants desperately to get out of the cage, but doesn’t trust herself enough to actually break out. She puts up a mask of self-assurance, but underneath, she’s afraid her mother IS right about her, and the real Sal is worthless and incapable of amounting to anything. So she stays out of fear, suspects that’s exactly what she’s doing, and resents how she’s been tied up in self-doubt she can’t escape.
For all her tough persona, Sal is only 19. She’s matured enough to see what’s been done to her, but not to get past it. Eventually, either her bottled rage will explode enough for her to do as you suggest and she’ll cut all ties to her mother, or she’ll develop enough sense of independent self-worth to be at least a little resistant to her mother’s manipulations and outgrow her. But for right now, she’s caught between too many conflicting impulses.
I seriously don’t know what you’re aiming for anymore, dude.
Like are you just here to say “Sal, who is barely out of adolescence, needs to uproot her life in the face of her abusive mother or… she can’t have a problem with it anymore?”
It’s entirely possible I’m having too sensitive a reaction because this exact argument gets used against me on the reg whenever I vocalize that I have a problem living with my alcoholic mother. I have a disability and not much else to my name so, yeah, I’m kind of dependent, and there’s a level of added humiliation where I’m 28 and not just passed teenagehood so I need to be grateful I’m allowed to stay here at all, so naturally what I need to do is run to my 90 year old grandmother’s house in a podunk town with no car where I’m definitely not going to manage any kind of meaningful employment like I want, but I should do it anyway otherwise it’s my fault I’m here? Yeah I guess it is but I think the pressing issue is that the thing causing me problems shouldn’t exist in the first place.
Seriously. Staying in school gives Sal food and a place to sleep, and it keeps Linda placated but at a distance. That means she’s got more room to start hiding money in an account Linda doesn’t know about, or figuring out which faculty members know someone who hires new graduates and just so happens to be based on the other side of the country, oh darn, what a shame, see you again never. Closer to graduation, it means figuring out which friends will have a couch she can crash on in the worst case scenario. If Sal doesn’t have all her original paperwork – birth certificate, Social Security, etc. – it’s easier for her to say she needs them for a job application after playing just enough of Linda’s game to keep her placated than take them from the Walkerton Household’s Important Documents box, and far easier than trying to get new copies without an original of SOMETHING. Staying in school gives her way more time to prep so that when she DOES cut ties with Linda, she’ll land safely. And it does so without Linda on her back. If Sal drops out now, her only real person to fall back on is Marcie (who doesn’t have the space for another roommate last we heard,) her job prospects are worse because capitalist bullshit, she probably has less saved up, she may or may not have her Social Security card and number but almost certainly doesn’t have her birth certificate, and there’s a nonzero chance if she just dropped out now that Linda would pull the abusive parent tactic of reporting Sal missing (either through standard channels or the internet or both) and painting herself as so concerned about her daughter’s possible abduction, PLEASE let her know if you find anything!
(Yes, that is a thing that happens.)
While she’s at school, Sal’s situation is mostly stable. Breaks are bad, but leaving now would actually put her in a worse position.
Also, college tuition is something Linda’s less likely to use as ammunition against Sal in an argument – ultimately, college graduate kids make her look better than one not going or dropping out. That means it’s relatively safe to take, and relatively unlikely to be threatened unless Linda’s REALLY pissed.
Benching the motorcycle temporarily means she probably still has it (rather than Linda trying to get rid of it during an argument, though I hope it’s being stored somewhere safe Linda doesn’t have access to in that case,) but doesn’t have the specific ‘favor’ Linda WAS very likely trying to leverage against Sal to get something she wanted. That’s still a net positive for Sal, and she CAN manage without a motorcycle on campus. The cost-benefit analysis here isn’t worth it.
Either way, for Sal to be the one to jump through all those hoops would be wrongfully putting the burden of Linda’s shameful actions on to HER shoulders.
Yeah Nordic-style Social Democracy for the win.
This was exactly my strategy as a kid. If you’re trying to escape an abusive situation with this strategy, you do so by 1, picking your battles (for 2 reasons: 1, being a doormat is really bad for anyone’s mental health. People need to have agency over their own lives. And 2, suddenly becoming a doormat when you’ve always been the difficult one isn’t going to placate the abuser, it’s going to make them clamp down more. Ultimately abuse isn’t about the victim’s behavior, it’s about the abuser’s desire for power and attention. You remove the conflict and you remove their ability to feel like they’re exercising the power, so they’ll invent reasons to be pissed.), 2, building an escape plan, 3, setting yourself up so you can be as independent as possible and don’t need their financial help anymore and then you assert yourself.
Becky, for all her zany antics on camera, was probably trying to work on the same sort of plan until it blew up and staying became more risky than leaving.
Because one of the things abusive parents convince you of is your own incompetence and naïveté. You’re ignorant and gullible and foolish and you’ll be eaten alive by the real world, child. I just want to protect you. And the abuser – either independently or through enablers – can and will sabotage you to reinforce that message (see also Linda stealing Sal’s money, or Carol paying Toedad’s bail), too. Sal (and the other cast members with bad parents) has been hearing that message her entire life. They’ll also keep your documents hostage under the excuse you can’t be trusted with them. So even if it was the 1950s and walking off with a one finger salute was an actual viable option for her because you could pay tuition with a part time job (others have already covered why it’s not unless she’s willing to sacrifice her own dreams and ambitions), it’s very likely that at a subconscious level Sal doesn’t believe she could make it work without a ton of preparation and getting all her ducks in a row.
Life is complicated.
And then you die. Eat at Arby’s.
Linda still doesn’t “own” Sal, though, which is certainly my main objection to your post.
I was speaking metaphorically.
And I think it hurt your point.
I don’t think it did.
In my country, parents are responsible for their children, even once emancipated, what means they have to pay a fee, according to what they can, even if the kid cut strings, meaning that in my country, Sal could tell her mom to fuck off and have some money, from her through the state, meaning she gets it from the state and not from her mom.
Otherwise, I don’t see how giving up on money is being emancipated, or otherways it means you employer owns you.
You sure don’t mean that?
And just what sensible, fair-minded country is that?
I got it, for what it’s worth.
Sal is under Linda’s thumb so long as Linda’s paying for her to go to school. In order to sever ties, she would have to get a job and pay her own way, either continuing her education or in the workforce.
Right now, she’s getting a relatively good deal. Linda’s placated and easily kept at arm’s length (out of sight, out of mind), and she doesn’t have to worry about rent and groceries for a few years. She also has the opportunity to mend her relationship with her brother if she chooses. There are costs of course (the bike, dealing with Linda during visits and breaks), but she has time to build up her reserves so she can go no-contact after graduation.
Yeah, but when it’s phrased as “Linda owns her” it implies something more legitimate than “under Linda’s thumb”. Especially with the “bought you” and the “and your soul” parts. It’s the very language that abusive parents use.
With the rest of it, it also implies it’s actually Sal’s responsibility and she should either cut ties or stop complaining, when having an abusive controlling parent is a very valid thing to be upset about, even if you could theoretically at great risk cut yourself free from them.
@wagstaff
one people often list as communist but isn’t one bit (socialized enterprises from the 45-49 era are almost all private now).
Also I’d like to point that there are some drawback in this, since you have to assign your parents in justice to get the fee, or persuade the state to do it (mostly done when you’re full of debts or a delinquent that must pay its victims a given sum), also another drawback is that if you want social care, you have to prove that your parents can’t give you money (fortunatly, that one is rarely enforced). But yes, in theory, that’s pretty sensible, I’ve seen a 14 y.o. that was working hours at McDonalds on the other side of the border since she got emancipated and didn’t want to live in one of these awful official households…
Just a thought, if your comments are the EXACT REASONING of Literal Murderous Villians in the story , consider saving them for your “Blaine was right” fanfiction.
The entire comics longstory has been how NONE OF THAT BULLSHIT is true! You are the one person in the audience that was supposed to learn this NEW FACT.
Was it “easy” for Becky to cut all ties with Toedad ?
Did really “have no Hold on” her, when he LITERALLY kidnapped her?
Cease the bad dad propaganda.
its a millimeter from queerphobia , and you should know that as there were literal college lessons by leslie on this exact topic incomic
Who is currently the bad dad? I lost track.
Joe’s dad is okay for now, he actually stuck with Amber’s mom over winter break, that’s impressive for his record. Joyce’s dad is working on a divorce, answer pending how he’s been treating others based on this. Danny’s dad is meh, but not bad dad tier. Sierra’s is just a divorced dad, neutral, as we don’t know him. Dorothy’s parents are A+ tier and we will all be shocked when they do wrong. Amber and Becky’s are dead, they are removed but remain at bad standing. Jennifer’s dad removed all homeless in a less that positive light based on maid’s reaction, not too positive. Sal and Walky’s dad allow for manipulation on Sal and is basically a “yes dear” person. Carla’s dad made cool things and supports his daughter’s identity, he’s cool. Wr know nothing on….Walky’s girlfriend parents so blank there.Think I got all current people’s dads? I think the twin’s dad is the bad dad.
LUCY, that’s her name, we don’t know Lucy’s parents. Yes, I forgot her name. I try to forget her frequently.
But on a side note, I can’t WAIT until Linda finds out Walky is dating a black women.
Sierra’s dad isn’t divorced and seems pretty cool. He stood up to Blaine on family weekend way back when.
Ruth’s dad is dead, but her mom’s dad is likely the baddest dad we’ve got left with Ross and Blaine out of the picture. Maybe Jennifer’s but we’ve only heard about him.
Billingsworth Sr. has definitely screwed Jennifer up with the longterm neglect – among other things, the Walkerton parents are her preferred parental substitute. But apart from ‘rich’ and ‘fucked over city’s worth of homeless people’ we don’t know anything else*, because his primary form of Bad Parenting is… well, neglect. The absence is the bad parenting in itself.
Dargon ‘cruel captain of industry’ Chesterfield seems unlikely to appear in person, but given the description, Ruth and Jason bonding over their awful rich male guardian figures, and the fact that Walkyverse him was a criminal mastermind on par with the actual big bad of the series, I’ve been assuming he’s still pretty dang evil. Also, ‘cruel captain of industry’ means he can get away with even the most cartoonish supervillainy actually being realistic. Alas. Good news is, I don’t think we’ll ever have to see him!
Clint’s almost certainly the overall winner of the Still-Living Bad Guardians, though, if only because he’s much more likely to show up than Dargon and while we can guess Dadingsworth’s probably trash on a personal level as well as politically cruel, Clint bribed the school to keep a suicidally depressed woman fresh out of the hospital who was already known to abuse her authority as the RA. Just. Every level there, completely terrible. Only clear competition is Asher’s Gramps, and we don’t actually know that he’s a guardian or what he’s like personally/as a parent or guardian, which is a factor here.
* I mean Jennifer seems to think he’s equivalent to Asher’s mob boss grandpa in influence/danger, but I’m not trusting that judgment as actually accurate until we SEE Dadingsworth because… like. Mob boss. Who we have seen order someone’s death, specifically. (Well, implicitly, but seriously guys Asher did not call that hit.) Much more personal a threat, especially because Asher’s not on his good side right now.
On the good parents: Yeah, Dorothy’s parents are both excellent, as are Sierra’s (well, her dad’s DEFINITELY awesome, her mom didn’t get a spotlight scene but we can assume from Sierra that both her parents are pretty cool.) Mike’s parents were disarmingly nice. The Saruyamas get points docked for insisting on letting Blaine into the dorm over Dina saying that Amber wouldn’t want him there, but her dad apologized once Blaine started evil monologing in the dorm so I’m willing to give them a pass as ‘used to the social norms, didn’t expect Blaine’s flagrant violations.’
In ‘mediocre to bad tier,’ we have the Wilcox parents and Ethan’s dad, who is clearly still suffering from compulsory heterosexuality (and I do mean SUFFERING) and therefore comes off slightly more sympathetic than his mom, but who is nonetheless advising his gay son to have sex with a woman no matter how deeply unpleasant it may be, he knows it’s terrible, but that’s just what they as men must do. Naomi clearly sucks quite a bit, as well.
My bad, I had meant Sarah, don’t know how I got Sierra. You right.
Mr Smith is Unironically paraphrasing Blaines “I paid for this school so i OWN YOU” speech.
doubling down 3 times with “own you” , buy applying it to Sal.
Then pretending she could just “cut ties” now despite politically powerful parents and history in the criminal justice system,
despite Ambers and becks failure to do that. Or Ruth. Or Jason.
But Mr ToughGuy has it all figured out, and doesnt care if hes shitting on closeted queer readers dependent of parental support to finish education;
AND the history people literally owning other People in this country
Is the assumption that Sal’s school is paid for by parents, or did I miss when we learned that?
Also the idea that you could just “work and study at the same time” and not have an issue anymore is funny in the US. I had no help from parents, but a full scholarship, and I worked half time as a TA (crap pay) but still needed student loans.
I’m certainly not saying it’s easy (anything but) but Sal does have options (even if they’re bad ones)
As I also said Sal could take everything Linda is offering to give, use it, graduate and then cut ties with Linda.
She has options.
Yes. She could end up like Becky and have a teacher adopt her and then fall into a job with a politician!
Going to go out on a limb here and suggest that following Beckys example probably wouldn’t work out well in Sals favour
But you never know
When your parent is actively abusing you, it is OK to take what they’re willing to give, build yourself a life and a safety net with it, and, with your degree in hand and your proverbial ducks in a row, you can *then* go low-contact or no-contact as you need (based on their behaviours at that time). Patience is a legit strategy, too.
Agreed. Since Sal is taking from Linda already then she should go all out and get as much as she can for as long as she can until shes ready to cut ties.
So… maybe you should have said something more like this in your original comment then. You seemed to be STRONGLY critical of Sal for accepting tuition money from her mother and then when people explain why it’s a valid strategy for escaping her abuse, you flip and agree with it. Sal is doing her best with what she’s got. It’s not cool to come in here all “SHE CAN JUST QUIT NOW” when, as has been explained, that would end much worse for her in the long run.
As I said at the bottom of my first post:
“Or since you already accept her money then why not try to take as much as she’ll give you until you graduate”
This is very strange black-and-white thinking.
Sal doesn’t enjoy taking money from her parents. She knows it gives Linda ammunition, and moreover, Sal wants to be a highly independent person. Sal won’t want to milk her parents for all they’re worth. That’s just not how she rolls.
Sal’s smartest move would be to work part-time while enrolled, sock those wages away in a credit union account Linda and Charles can’t access, graduate on their dime, and then sever.
Sal doesn’t appear to be a scholarship kid and doesn’t seem to have the income to pay her own way. It’s a sensible assumption
No clear indication of scholarships, which would probably have come up during the math arc if she was getting a full ride.
No universe in which an 18-year-old could pay for current tuition at a major college on her own, especially since financial aid would assume her parents ARE capable of and willing to pay a certain percentage of tuition and proving otherwise would be incredibly difficult. (Remember how Becky was waiting for her house to foreclose so she could prove she was homeless for financial aid, even though her dad was in jail for kidnapping her? Yeah.)
Since she hasn’t mentioned a metric fuckton of student loans, it’s safe to assume her parents are paying tuition, at least in part – I wouldn’t be shocked if going to IU wasn’t actually her idea, but a ‘both twins are going to the same school’ thing.
Which, yes, Linda can almost certainly use as pressure later. But if it wasn’t this, it’d be something else, as pointed out elsewhere, and at least she might be able to leverage a degree into more financial options later. Plus I wouldn’t be shocked if she doesn’t have a key piece of documentation because Linda kept her Social Security card ‘for safekeeping’ or something, which would severely limit things. Sticking it out as long as you safely can while you build a safety net is a known strategy for escaping abusive living situations. While Sal’s away at college, it’s actually pretty safe for her all told.
It hasn’t been established how most of the characters are paying for university (except Sarah, who is mindful of her GPA-based scholarship, and Becky, with her required PoliSci major). When Sal was doing poorly in math, she was worried about proving herself, not about losing her funding, so I assumed she was mainly financed by her rich parents, student loans, or both.
This is a VERY terrible comment and you should delete it:
A LOT OF THE READERS are probably in this exact situation, in college, and you are punching down!
and if it was because you had a hard day dealing with the worst of humanity, >>>thats proof you should delete it.<<
better you just complain outright about your job than take it out on others.
No.
How I worded it might be different but the inherent meaning behind it still stands
Look, the way you word something matters. It just does. Possibly even more than what you actually meant when you said it, because words have meaning and weight and hidden connotations, and picking the wrong words will make people read what you said in a way you didn’t mean. If you don’t want people to think you have extreme, overwhelmingly negative opinions of something, maybe you don’t say stupid shit like “X owns Y’s soul”.
Hey, Taffy. I own your soul. I keep it in a box under my bed and every so often take it out and give it a good shaking. But I’ll sell it back to you for $5.00.
Look, how dare you take my inflammatory rhetoric and be this fucking funny with it.
that is so aggressively evil an outlook that it is difficult to imagine it being a badly-phrased version of anything usefully close to true.
Yeah like, I thought I was misconstruing something, I thought wires were getting crossed as they are want to do when you communicate in a context-less medium of written words, but the more I read this comment chain the more fucked it gets.
I mean, unless Linda has a contract with Sal that she is just loaning her the money, she’s just spending it, and Sal can at least get a good education out of it and hopefully break contact after and only have contact through Walky.
Although it probably still feels bad.
This ain’t it chief.
While I think I get what you’re saying about Sal’s situation the motorcycle is also expensive to upkeep and could also slow down the whole leaving process.
I also think on some level it was something Sal did for herself and that was important to her and if she keeps it now it won’t be.
If you look for everything to be a manipulation, everything can be a manipulation.
So is Sal manipulating Danny or just torturing him?
There’s an old Chinese fable, where a man lost something, and suspected his neighbour of stealing it. Observing his neighbour, he noted that the neighbour behaved in a very suspicious way; all his actions and mannerisms were like that of a thief.
However the man eventually found his belongings, and the next day when he observed the neighbour again, he realised that said mannerisms were like that of a normal person.
Moral of the story is that you view people through your own lens and biasness. Get therapy, Sal.
She’s had therapy. It left her with a distrust of therapists.
It’s also hard to get over such things, even with therapy, when the cause of them is still right there doing the same manipulation you’ve needed to become suspicious of.
Maybe she should just dive deep into online games.
” If REAL LIFE doesn’t want to play fair, we’re just not gonna play with REAL LIFE at all! How does that feel, REAL LIFE? “
It’s crude (by some metrics), but at least it would work. I mean, there’s only so much the product of hundreds of millions of years of happy accidents could do right.
He should totally invite her to do laundry with him.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/kindness-4/
Ouch.
Sal, you have interacted with Danny for more than five minutes. You know subterfuge is not a skill this man has
Danny has the same capacity for deception as an affectionate golden retriever when you walk through the door after being gone for an hour.
Sounds like my dad’s beagles. Step outside for a few minutes because he doesn’t want people blazing in his house, come back in to three little hounds freaking out because you’ve (apparently) been gone for years.
And so the cycle continues, where the bullied become bullies, for fear of being bullied again.
Can the cycle be unbroken? Only time will tell…..
By and by, Lord, by and by.
IUnderstoodThatReference dot gif
Danny’s so used to it he doesn’t notice.
Seriously, even in his darkest moment, when he was being an unmitigated dick about a dying man, Danny was in trouble because he has the subtlety and manipulation skills of an actual brick, Sal.
She didn’t see that. She wasn’t there.
Yeah, anyone who’s interacted with Danny for more than a few minutes should know he’s not really able to manipulate people. If he even tried he’d probably screw it up almost immediately.
Ah, but maybe that’s like anyone who’s interacted with Becky for more than a few minutes knowing she’s incapable of subtlety and can’t keep secrets.
I’m 99% sure Sal is doing the protest too much thing here and I am cackling.
“Never look a gift horse in the mouth.”
Then there’s Sal, the horse dentist.
Then there’s a TROJAN horse.
If you’ve been gifted one of those, you’ll be GLAD you looked it in the mouth!
Don’t bother looking first, just set it on fire.
I think if you look a Trojan Horse in the mouth you just get stabbed
Lotta greeks with spears in those
Nah, they need someone to take it deep within city walls. The point of a Trojan Horse is that it’s a surprise attack that you AREN’T ready for.
My point is that if they get made I doubt they’d come quietly, and the poor sap that looked in the Horse’s mouth is well within stabbing distance
honestly, if they look it in the mouth they’d probably see a wooden back to said mouth.
Little known fact: the original proverb actually goes, “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth, instead always slice its fucking gut open just in case!!! BLOODY GREEKS ALWAYS SCHEMING AND TRICKING I HATE THEM I HATE THEM AAAAAAH”
but weirdly enough it eventually got trimmed down to that first part
I didn’t know that, but now that I do, I’ll pass the information on at every opportunity.
Sure. You may absolutely quote me on this. I should also mention that a table flip is included, don’t forget to do that for maximum historical accuracy.
The real trick was they couldn’t call a spade a spade because one of the gods who likely knew it was a spade would have punished them for it.
I thought Danny used Amazis rather than Trojans?
The Amazis horse is a trifle obscure.
I think Sal’s issues may not just be properly paranoid.
Improperly paranoid then?
When your issues have issues it may be a case of issues all the way down.
I get Sal though. After she reacted the way she did when he bought her a bicycle, I’d also be wary because he hasn’t backed off at all. Sal clearly liked the idea but didn’t want overt presents.
let’s put it this way
If he only wanted to do something nice for her, he’d have stopped.
If he only wanted to communicate his more-than-friends intent, then that came across already.
If he wanted to coursecorrect his present to a more simple flower boquet (because a bicycle IS a lot), he could’ve said so, instead of asking whether she wants the flowers or not – which puts the onus on her to explain herself.
No wonder she feels triggered by it. I hope Danny continues to listen, because considering her boundaries is the sort of mundane romance that would make him a good bf. Instead of emptying your bank account for a bike she hadn’t even mentioned needing.
Sal wants the bicycle. She also wants the flowers. Danny has that right.
Sal simply doesn’t want a future power play/manipulation to come with that, and it’s impossible for Danny to convince her that it doesn’t.
He didn’t know she’d want either though, and after seeing her reaction to the bike, he went ahead with his idea of a romantic gesture anyway, disregarding her discomfort.
I mean it’s good it opens up the conversation, but Danny doesn’t need to push it further. If he just accept that about her, and she could relax into it.
tbf this is very much IC for Danny – big romantic gestures. It was the same with Dorothy and Amber, and it was sometimes too much for them as well.
And the doubling down in a big (intended) romantic gesture that makes everything worse is very much how he wrecked things with Ethan.
Today’s strip shows he got it right with the flowers as well.
He’s not pushing, he’s offering. Big difference.
Sal, stop bumming smokes from Meredith.
Does pot make people paranoid? I figured it would chill her out some, if anything.
Not unless you’re predisposed, which is like 1% of people but you should check for family history for stuff like that. And with any other substance you should always start off with lower amounts to see how it affects you personally.
Some people might think it makes them more anxious at first, but that’s because THC always tends to elevate the heart-rate right before slowing it down and reducing blood pressure.
That said, Sal should definitely try it again to see if it helps. It’s actually totally normal for people not to feel anything their first time taking it.
To a certain extent, pot is a general mood enhancer – it kinda makes you feel more of whatever you’re already feeling, like a low-key version of Ecstasy. So, by default, it tends to make people feel calm and mellow – because on average people don’t go around feeling intense emotions all the time, and if they’re comfortable enough to take a mind-altering drug on purpose, they’re probably not already freaking out. But if one is prone to anxiety, or circumstances force you into an anxious state, it can also exacerbate that feeling quite a bit.
Even that’s kind of over-generalizing. Unlike other drugs, which work their effects on one or more specific pathways found in the overwhelming majority of human brains, cannabis works on a whole system of receptors that’s uniquely tailored to the individual’s brain and neurological development.
This means that everyone’s experience with the drug is very unique, and can vary even further across different terpene blends and even times of day.
It depends on the type of strain and your own unique brain chemistry. The THC and CBD levels can affect what type of reaction you get. A high THC level when you are a new user is more likely to give you an anxious/paranoid reaction than if you start with a low THC level. Your brain sensitivity might still cause you to have an anxious/paranoid reaction though.
One time when I was visiting my sister, one of her friends at night, I presume, ate an edible as it was never confirmed to me specifically how he took it, but he was paranoid and awake the entire night and needed watched and reassured until it wore off in the morning because he had a really bad reaction to it.
You should NOT use any type of it though if your family history is prone to psychotic disorders or schizophrenia as the THC can trigger the onset of them though.
Sounds like a total crapshoot that could potentially fuck my brain up more than it already has been.
Yeah, if it’s stronger than coffee, I’m not interested.
It’s actually thousands of times LESS toxic than coffee, if that’s what you mean.
It’s the dosage that really matters, so as with anything else you would try a TINY BIT to see what it does.
If you want an idea of what TINY looks like for cannabis, 3 mg of THC and 1 mg CBD made me absolutely ECSTATIC on my first time. So maybe start with a third of that?
By the way, not that this matters, but it can actually act as an aphrodisiac in some people.
The THC in pot adds dopamine to your body, which is enjoyable in small doses. But in large doses, that enjoyment can turn to anxiety. What seperates small from large changes from person to person AND from time to time.
I’ve experimented with edibles a lot before trying joints and vapes. Some times I’ve ingested 50 mg of THC and still had the capacity to keep my emotions under control and talk to people over the phone, but the one time I had a panic attack was from 5 mg of THC. At the time I was afraid of taking an edible in the evening and still being high the morning after, and I had to go to work the next morning. I kept thinking, “No no no, they’re gonna see my red eyes and they’re gonna fire me and report me to the cops!” (this was Idaho, actually a realistic scenario)
Huh. Looks like the anti-cannabis law itself is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
“I’m not the Messiah, do you understand!? Honestly!”
“Only the true Messiah denies his divinity!”
“What? Well what sort of chance does that leave me? Alright, I am the Messiah!”
“HE IS! HE IS THE MESSIAH!”
He’s not the Messiah he’s a very naughty boy
“How shall we fuck off, Oh Lord?”
“Judean People’s Front, Suicide Squad!”
“Hnnng… that’ll… show ’em…” *thud*
Sal, I realize that Danny’s psyche has also been crushed quite well over the years but even he might come to the conclusion that he deserves to be treated better than that shit you are putting him through. Calm down and stop putting all of your issues with your mother on everyone else. The fact that you see people being transactionally manipulative like your mother already caused you issues with Jason (you thought he wanted to exchange sex for grades so you seduced him thinking you’d get your grades improved, when Jason had no such intentions but also had no self-control to turn you down). I’m not sure how many other interpersonal relationships you have to ruin before you learn that lesson, but you’ll regret it if Danny is one of them.
Well one, ruining a relationship with Jason is what we in the biz call a bullet dodged.
Two, yeah Sal’s being kind of frustrating I guess, that’s lifelong trauma for you, but it’s not like Danny himself is reacting poorly to that. If he said something like “hey it bothers me that I feel like I’m the only one trying to be a friend here and it would mean a lot to me if you did that too” then yeah that’d be an acknowledgement that Sal’s behaviour is hurting him, but it’s not. Danny already knows pretty clearly that Sal is walled up like Fort Knox, but he values what they do have, he lets Sal ease herself into their friendship at her own pace, and she’s demonstrably done that considering it takes her like a whole three or so hours to go from “I never sing anymore” to singing the lyrics to Danny’s ukulele rendition of Hurt.
I think everyone regardless of their social battery needs to indicate to the best of their abilities that their friends matter to them, you can’t just rely on “oh well they know I care so I never have to say it, but Sal isn’t really doing that so much as her social battery is so dead that this is really all she can muster outside of her comfort zone.
Yeah, not sure if this version of Jason is overladen with redeeming qualities. I haven’t read the entire Walkyverse, but it seems so jarring that the swashbuckling normal human (well, as normal as a dimension jumper can be) that can keep up with super powered augmented abductees is such a weeny ponce.
It’s been a long time since I read It’s Walky, but as I recall, Jason was generally ok to have at your back in a fight, but he was a weenie, a ponce, AND a jerk most of the rest of the time.
Hey Danny, just throwing this out there, this can be a red flag for you even if Sal’s not doing anything wrong! It’s ok to say “okay, next”!
Sal is unaware that Danny is vulnerable to exactly that sort of manipulation, as Blaine demonstrated.
The real clue, though, is that Danny emphasizes “Do” in the last panel, not “really.” That demonstrates actual worry. A gaslighter would emphasize “really.”
Wait, emphasizing words has meaning? (Besides sounding extra exaggerated)
In English? Yes. There are languages that don’t do that and resort to reorderings or to words that emphasize whatever’s next to them, but:
Wait, emphasizing words has meaning?
That means you knew something about words has meaning, but you’re surprised emphasis is one of those things.
Wait, emphasizing words has meaning?
That means you knew emphasizing something has meaning, but you’re surprised words, of all things, can be emphasized to such effect. (Maybe you were thinking of sentences or syllables.)
Wait, emphasizing words has meaning?
That seems to be what you actually mean: you knew words can be emphasized, you just thought it was a random meaningless flourish. Well, it’s not – not in English.
Someone on one of my discords posted a fantastic example of this just yesterday:
I never said we should kill him.
It’s kinda crazy how one sentence can mean so many different things just based on the emphasis put on the words.
haha nice ^^
reminds me of a certain famous american movie from the 70’s, but i feel like mentioning the title in the context of this conversation would be a total spoiler
but i’m sure whoever’s seen it is like “yyyyup”
Logan’s Run?
Haven’t seen that one, so I can’t tell if this was a serious guess or a joke but either way, no =)
The protagonist plays the saxophone alone in a destroyed apartment at some point, is all that i’ll add. If you’ve seen it I think you can’t not remember that scene.
Again, if you havent seen it I feel like it would spoil a major and pretty cool plot twist for me to name it in the context of the conversation above
Which I mention mostly because its a funny situation to find yourself in ^^
Kind of like when something someone says reminds you of a joke, but because the part of the joke it reminded you of is the punchline, now you can’t really tell the joke because the punchline would be ruined by the mere fact that you were transparently inspired to tell it by whatever was just said, so the joke would just fall flat and the whole interaction would be gauche and unfunny and awkward?
You know what I mean, right? This isnt just a me thing, right?
I looked up a few keywords to find it and nah, haven’t seen that movie. I get the punchline thing, though.
I’m lazier than Taffy is. You’ll have to tell us the joke some other time when we’ve forgotten the context.
Its a fantastic movie. It really is too bad I can’t recommend it without ruining it 😁
“lazier than Taffy is”
Now hold on, that seems a lil Farfetch’d. They’re too lazy for video games, a social life, or even gender.
Kids these days are too lazy for gender!!!
and they won’t get off my lawn.
Yes, it can literally change the entire meaning of the sentence.
In this instance, if say, Danny emphasised the word ‘you’, that would imply he thinks it isn’t her own opinion and that it came from someone else.
If he emphasised ‘trying’ it would come across as a disbelief that she thinks such actions (which would have to exist but be due to misunderstandings/not being aware of it) are purposeful.
If he emphasised ‘actually’ then it comes across as questioning her belief in her perception/strength of her belief.
Emphasising ‘do’ as he actually does, comes across as reaffirming if she is messing with him or actually suspects that is what he is doing.
It can also depend on the actual person’s tone too though. Someone with a condescending tone would come across very differently even emphasising the same words, which would come across very differently from say, the innocent tone of a child.
Yeah, but there’s a worst interpretation of that sentence, so it’s the one we’re morally obligated to assume.
XD
your deadpan sarcasm verges on trolling but I’m enjoying it ^^
Oh, that’s just the outward lack of expressiveness developed over decades as a form of masking. Behind it is a barely-contained rage built up as a result of needing to perform the aforesaid masking.
Eh, yeah, i see the rage is breaking free a bit down there.
Take care, then <3
See, on the one hand, Danny’s not doing anything here that’s really wrong. Yes, Sal’s got some boundaries that he’s crossing, but they’re fairly unconventional boundaries and she hadn’t communicated them that clearly prior to this, so he couldn’t be (reasonably) expected to know they were there. And yes, him walking through the “things manipulators say” minefield isn’t the best look, but again, I take that as not knowing what he was walking into.
… what was I saying?
Oh, right. He hasn’t done much that’s wrong here. Arguably nothing, arguably a little bit, but not much.
And’ he’s STILL managed to Dan it up. Without Danning it up.
I can’t tell if that is or isn’t a sign of his aptitude at Danning.
I’d say Sal is Salling it up more than Dan is Danning it up
Isn’t it proof positive that he is a master at Danning? I mean, he’s even dithering about how Danny he’s being.
Danny is so good at Danning it up, that he doesn’t even need to do anything special to Dan it up.
he’s like, a 3rd dan at Danning
No she communicated her boundery pretty well.
Which is why he made the flowers optional.
Okay, Danny: just tell Sal you think she’s Amazi-Girl. That’s a totally non-manipulative thing that only someone who is not at all manipulative would say.
What the hell, Sal. Yeah, I feel bad for her, but having a shitty background/parents doesn’t make it okay to take that out on others. TBH, I know I’m in the minority on this, but I thought she was out of line with Asher/Jennifer/Raidah too. There is nothing at ALL wrong with “It’s cool that we’ve moved on from an immature and reckless phase” conversations. And honestly, it’s immature to shit on people for trying to move on, and cruel to act like they can’t.
But I don’t think Sal’s a Bad Person for having issues. I just hope she figures some stuff out soon.
My issues with the Asher/Jennifer interaction were the two of them being smug about it (especially given the hypocrisy – Asher CURRENTLY drives a motorcycle and he’s talking about how Sal’s grown up and put hers away – and the fact that, at 18, they most certainly do not have their shit together as much as they’d like to believed. Realistic, but at best I’m looking at them and going ‘you sweet summer child, no.’) and how thoroughly they were talking OVER Sal, not letting her make this introduction. Multiple characters have introduced her with the ‘got arrested holding up a convenience store’ thing as a fun anecdote, and it’s shitty every time, but she didn’t even get to explain her major or hobby in her own words.
Raidah and Carl had no reason to react any differently, though, Sal’s blowing up was unrelated to either of those points and they DON’T know the critical ‘mob boss grandpa who you STOLE MONEY FROM’ aspect that does make Asher dangerous, if only due to the collateral damage risks when the mob shows up. They were actually innocent bystanders in all that. Though I am… bemused, shall we say, that Raidah ‘she’s a freshman, a child’ was just cheerfully accepting a second-semester freshman who’s also a friend of Joyce’s talking about how she’s grown up and settling down at 18.
Sure, if any of those three had been doing anything but blowing their own dicks in front of her, maybe Sal would be out of line.
*SLURRRP* “I’m so mature!” *SLURRRP* “God, I’m such an adult!”
this is my favorite comment for the night, by far
Congratulations for getting the point I was trying to make across faster and funnier. That about sums it up.
(I do still think Raidah was on comparatively good behavior but lbr, again, freshmen she doesn’t like are children and freshmen she likes are Incredibly Mature, like her, a sophomore. Not unrealistic cognitive dissonance but HILARIOUS all the same.)
One of the interesting things about Raidah is that she’s very good about being on good behavior most of the time. Sort of the opposite of the characters with “jerk” as their cover persona.
Yeah, I genuinely think Raidah is just as much of a well-intentioned mess as the rest of the cast. My take on her is that she has some severe self-esteem issues and holds grudges, fairly or unfairly, like an elephant. But she’s not, like, evil. Just made some really poor judgement calls.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say ‘evil’ either, but I do think the implication that up until Sarah punched her, she was actively bullying Sarah (certainly she went out of her way on multiple occasions to insult her, and insulted Sarah for trying to Just Not Engage rather than escalate things) docks her ‘well-intentioned’ points in my book. Doesn’t help Dana, doesn’t even get Sarah to rethink her actions if she DID genuinely harm Dana and Raidah knows something we don’t, just feeds Raidah’s desire to be petty and spiteful, and the implication is there was a lot more going on for longer than what we saw. (By comparison, I class Rachel and Roz as ‘the same level as dysfunctional as the cast, but isn’t a POV character so doesn’t come off as sympathetically.’) About on par with Ruth and Jennifer, I suppose, but we’ve seen Ruth at least try to change and Raidah hasn’t given any signs of self-reflection in the same way thusfar. (Which could be lack of POV, but given things like ‘She’s a freshman. A child.’ ‘Yeah but so’s he.’ and her ‘here’s how I would Maturely Handle things instead of getting jealous’ versus the reality, Jennifer being the exact same kind of Smug Maturity Above It All and Raidah taking it at face value… well, again. No signs of self-reflection as yet. And so, firmly in the role of antagonist who nonetheless is the wronged party in the Jacob arc and didn’t do anything wrong during the Asher/Jennifer/Sal exchange. But I think Jennifer’s likely to be hovering there right now, herself.)
Sure! And Sal’s response to, uh, call them out, insinuate that Asher would mistreat Jennifer, and then flip out and double down on how Dangerous she is, is completely not self-indulgent or immature at all.
Look, I’m on board with the fact that their conversation was self-indulgent and a lot less mature than they seemed to think, but Sal going off on them – for being introduced(?!) – seems no better. (Also, “they used to knock off stores together,” implicating Asher as well as her and implying they’ve both grown up is much, much better than “lol she got arrested for robbery. And she has the right to be irritated about it – there IS a lot of baggage there, but again that’s not baggage it’s fair to chuck at the heads of everyone in the vicinity!)
I think we basically agree here? I thinks so. I’m a little dys-something right now, but your reply makes sense. From Raidah and them’s perspective, Sal flew off the handle at nothin’ much, an deven from our omniperspective lense she kinda went there on purpose to start at least some kinda shit and that already wasn’t good to begin with. Sal definitely wasn’t wrong to throw that at Billifer an d Asher but she also wasn’t super right in the way she did it. She’s been on edge a lot lately and I’m worried a little bit about her. The other group may have been sucking their own cocks, but I admit at least a little shred of their upset with her was definitely warranted, since she came flyin’ out of the aether with a fight in mind. Nobody really is wrong there, autofellatio aside.
Yeah, pretty much!
I don’t jump into the comments section here, because usually my take on the main characters is “Well-intentioned 18-20 year olds, whose issues make for interesting drama,” and a lot of the discourse seems to be more along the lines of “Literal angels/saints and devils/monsters, thrown together in a college setting.” And it was weird to me to see that thrown at Asher when he hadn’t actually done anything wrong.
But yeah, I think Sal’s just having a bad day and everything and everyone seems to be determined to stomp up and down on her stress triggers.
Oh, agreed. I found it insufferable to watch, but realistically so, and Sal doesn’t have the high ground in her response.
Sal was out of line, yeah. She went over there because she is kinda sorta desperately lonely and wanted to see Asher, and then when it hit her point blank that Asher isn’t going to give her what she wants (which, given she had the exact same reaction to Jason, I think it’s clear what she wants right now) she suddenly flares up over past grievances she’s previously stated she had dealt with.
Sal was being rude and kinda petulant, sure, but she was being rude and kinda petulant to a bunch of assholes (and Carl, who did nothing wrong) who also had no reason not to be rude and snobby back at this weirdo riding her bicycle who seemingly swung on by to yell at them.
Except that Sal barely got the chance to say anything rude or petulant until they’d already gotten rude and snobby.
Not really. Jennifer wasn’t intentionally malicious with her initial comments about Sal “settling down and growing up”, even if it was coming from a place of “the Sal I know is flawed and broken, like I was previously” it’s still the kind of thing that’s broadly hurtful and has to be phrased correctly if you don’t meant it as an insult, and while I don’t think Jennifer meant to be insulting that’s because Jennifer’s a moron (whereupon she finds out Sal’s jealous and actively relishes in it, because she’s an asshole) who thinks she has it all figured out.
Other than Sal, Jennifer and Asher the only thing any of them say before Sal gets aggro (and she got aggro because she came to see Asher, saw him with Jennifer and talking about how she made him an honest man and yada yada) is when Raidah asks her if she’s in choir, which, like, that’s not a malicious question.
Usually when they’re manipulating you, they say that last one with a lot more tears and/or rage
Not really Sal. You’re just uber paranoid that everyone’s trying to manipulate you.
A therapist might do wonders.
Therapy is for crazy people and doesn’t even work anyway, so why bother? That’s what Sal’s expressed in the past, at any rate.
She didn’t say it was for crazy people, just that it didn’t work, and that she had definitely seen a good sample size.
I was paraphrasing. It was more about the portrayed attitude toward therapy in general, not the specific wording.
Sample size, yes. Cross-section, maybe not. I suspect she was sent to therapists whose end goal was to mash her into Linda’s “Sally” mold, not help her on her own terms.
My suspicion is ‘court-ordered,’ personally, but probably a similar impact.
Probably a bit of both. The court ordered her to go to therapy, and since she was a minor, guess who picked the therapists.
The hypothesis that someone is trying to manipulate you is non-falsifiable.
Non-falsibiable hypotheses are the best kind, because they let you be right no matter what. For example, Dumbing of Age is secretly an essay by the Shortpacked! version of Gerard Way, meant to illustrate how scary teenagers can be.
And being right is tasty
*Sips down half a bottle of hard apple cider*
Anyone want an epistemology mini-essay that sounds like it was written by your third least favorite science teacher?
Sounds like a trick question, but I’m guessing the correct answer is ‘No.’
Too late, I already put it up there with a JoJo reference for good flavor.
“Sal, I like you. I just want to give you things. You incur no obligation from eating at my table.” Something like that, D-unit! Hey, new theory: Sal is a fae creature, everything’s gotta be a bargain, can’t stand being indebted…
I wouldn’t really blame Danny for just walking away without a word and going about the rest of his day like normal. This is a no-win situation where everything he does is wrong and the only way through it involves way more patience than anyone should be expected to have. Whether Sal means to do it or not, that’s the situation she’s put him in, and I get why but things can suck even if everyone involved has the best reasons on Earth. He’s being weirdly generous, which can be a red flag and clearly is one for Sal, but Linda’s irredeemable shitfuckery isn’t his problem and it’s not fair to make it so.
Yes. But I start to think that Danny loves complicated situations and to have relationships with someone full of complexes and conflits. It’s not a good thing, but….
Sal, Danny has issues (don’t we all) but overall he’s a good guy. While ‘you could do worse’ isn’t the stuff romantic legends are forged of, it’s at least a place to start to see if something’s there.
Danny is more and more suspect… But Sal still talk with him… I think they are having a good time together and Sal is messing with him ♡. Even if this is a very complicated way to have fun.
“Alright, I get it, I’ll keep the flowers. Sorry, Sal.”
“GIMME THE FLOWERS AND PLAY MARIO KART WITH ME”
“Sal, are you familiar with the term ‘mixed signals.’”
Does she send any other kind?
But isn’t it also what someone who is not trying to manipulate you would say.
That’s the trick, innit? They try to act all nice and “reasonable”, so you won’t question their bullshit. And then when you start questioning normal people’s basic kindness, they turn that around on you, too. That’s why I can’t really fault Sal here. I wish she’d dial it back a bit, sure, but I totally 100% get why she hasn’t and/or won’t.
On the other hand, “everything you say is what a manipulator would say” is also the kind of thing manipulators say.
“Stop abusing yourself! Stop abusing yourself! Stop abusing yourself!”
god has gifted them with the gift of prophecy
Sal….SAL! It’s Danny: the guy can barely manipulate himself let alone be capable of doing so to any others.
But he was nice. That’s something assholes do to ruin other people’s lives, and he’s doing it, so therefore he’s an asshole out to ruin her life. Never mind that she doesn’t even seem to actually be accusing him of any such thing and they’re in the middle of a conversation that could take days to wrap up.
Some people are *just nice people*, *for no reason*.
Nope, sorry, every act of kindness is to be scrutinised, catastrophised, and furthermore villainised. If someone who’s been generally kind to you with no apparent ulterior motive or malice, you need to treat them like they’re worthless abusive garbage who want nothing more than for you to suffer. Pushing everyone away all the time and at any cost is the only way to be safe, you see.
To SAL? That’s not the way the world works. Danny is malfunctioning 😛
Ah yes, Danny, the world-famous manipulator. 🙂
Guy couldn’t manipulate his way into a password reset for his own e-mail address.
Omglob. I see so much of myself in Sal, in this strip; unable to accept anything nice and being overly aggressive
Thank you, mr Writer-person
It do be like that though. The worst part is that if allowed to continue Danny’s gifts are going to become increasingly… heavy if that makes sense. Its just not a pattern that’s healthy/sustainable.
Exactly this. Heavy and boundary violating.
I think nearly 11 years of comics has led Danny to a point in his character development where he’s not going to ignore the feelings of a woman he cares about in pursuit of his own dream narrative, and especially not on those steps again.
You mean, like he just did by getting her the bouquet?
It might be due to cluelessness, but it’s still happening.
He’s not giving her flowers to impose a narrative. He’s not telling her she could change her mind about leaving for Yale or that he loves Amber and not Amazi-Girl, he bought her some flowers both to remove the transaction that Sal tried to turn the bike into (which, like, I think that’s Sal’s B more than it is Danny’s, I think it’s okay that Danny had a problem with that) and to emphasize that being nice to her is something he wants to do entirely out of his own will, something he’s now emphasizing to her while she’s insistent this is Danny revealing all along he’s been using her to gain leverage or ownership of her.
Like I said, cluelessness.
Doesn’t trying to remove the transaction make it worse: “I’m uncomfortable with you giving me something this big, let me pay you back at least partially” “Hey, I bought you more with what you gave me to pay me back.”
Should be obvious that’s not going to make her more comfortable, but then – clueless.
Danny did try to make it clear that Sal didn’t have to accept the flowers, which could have been a way of trying to be more respectful in giving her something when her boundaries still weren’t as clear to him.
Nope, apparently, not immediately diving boundaries that aren’t clear to you makes you a creep, so I am told.
It makes you come across as a creep, whether that’s your intent or not.
Because plenty of people use the excuse of you not having spelled everything out to the last detail to transgress those boundaries.
To be clear, Danny isn’t doing that intentionally. He is just trying to be nice, with only minor other intentions most likely, but he is still crossing those boundaries and that’s messing with Sal.
“I’m uncomfortable with you giving me something this big, let me pay you back at least partially”
So did you write this on purpose or do you really think that’s all it is when in the strip from yesterday Sal clearly vocalizes the root of the problem?
No, I don’t think it’s all it is, but it’s all Danny would have known before the strip yesterday. You know, when he decided to use that to go buy her something else.
Because Sal turned his gift into a transaction, so he tried again with “hey I bought flowers, do you want them? You don’t have to take them.” Sal didn’t tell him not to buy gifts, she took his gift and then paid for it even though Danny wanted to give a gift to his friend who is really sad.
So if you’re wondering if Danny learned anything from giving a gift to Sal, there ya go, unless now we’re at the point where Danny “comes off at a creep” because he offered flowers that he bought.
Sal and Danny, stop acting like comic strip characters!
Wait…
“Wow, Sal, what wacky shenanigans could have led us to becoming Roomies!”
“I dunno but I think ah’m gonna bail. Look, it’s Walky.”
“Wait, I think that’s Joyce and Walky.”
+1
“Sal, I promise that any manipulation I attempt will be transparent and fairly obviously pursuant to my perverse sexual lust for you.”
I’ms a regularz Cyranose.
The gift of a bicycle rhymes a bit too much with Linda and the motorcycle. Sal is right to be suspicious when it’s followed up with flowers. The anger she has after Jennifer and Asher is being aimed at Danny. It’s a bit unfair to Danny since she would be kinder about this otherwise, but she would tell him off in any case.
This is where I would normally post a lengthy explanation of how devious and manipulative Danny is, attempting to control his girlfriends through faux-nice behavior (as well as his part in Mike’s death).
But I won’t. Danny is a good egg.
Poor Sal and he would make a good couple.
Can we stop glossing over the fact that Danny literally shot Mike in the head and was looking Ethan square in the eye the entire time? This is a lot more serious than something like a terribly rude comment or minimising Mike’s suffering in a severely misguided attempt to hit on Ethan. He straight-up murdered the guy, and then we got a week’s worth of strips dedicated to showing how horrific he’d secretly been to Dorothy and Amber behind the scenes. Why does it feel like nobody’s acknowledging how wretched Danny’s been?
You’re laughing. Danny is directly and wholly to blame for Mike’s death and you’re laughing.
Next thing ya know, these sheeple are gonna be saying it was actually Danny’s sinister Nobody, Nyndax doing all the horrible crimes.
This makes me sad for Sal.
“That is EXACTLY what someone who’s tryin’ ta manipulate me would say!!”
“True, but that is ASLO what someone who is NOT trying to manipulate you would say.”
“!…”
I’m suddenly having flashbacks to the end of Danny and Amber/Amazi-Girl’s relationship where would express himself with the best of intentions but it wasn’t “following the rules” he didn’t even know existed. I am not blaming Amber for “having a need for rigid conformity to rules thanks to a lifetime of chaotic abuse and no safety”, but now that I think about it I guess Danny’s type of lady is someone who doesn’t come out and say what they’re feeling assuming it’ll all work itself out before Danny does something boneheaded.
Maybe Danny and Lucy could hit it off.
this is a red flag, she’s walking down a dangerous path to paranoia that could destroy all of her personal relationships
Your icon is appropriate, because framed that way, she’s potentially turning into Malaya in a way. Automatically assuming everyone’s being “fakey” with her and not letting herself trust anyone because of course they’re not presenting what they really want up front.
Eh, I think Malaya’s paranoia is more inward and fueled by their confusion over their gender identity. Malaya thinks they are fake, whereas Sal thinks everyone else is at risk of being fake when dealing with her.
That’s a really good point. I agree.
BTW, what are the rules regarding personal attacks in the comments?
I figure it would be against the rules/a boundary violation, but am not sure (or sure of the resolution method for it)
Essentially, “Wait ’til Dad gets home”. Willis tends to be good at cleaning up the trash. Which proably includes myself, in this case.
They were, and are, straight up accusing you of being an abuser, and accusing you of attempting to use autism as a shield.
Despite what they’re claiming, that’s actually a perfectly legitimate thing to blow up about, because they were already *directly attacking you*. You were not, in fact, having a blow up about the comic, they were directly calling you a terrible person. That is Not Okay.
Yeah, you did also go over the line in your blowup in response to that, to be true. But them attempting to imply that you had no reason to get emotional because ‘it’s just a comic forum comments section’, when.. they were.. taking it seriously enough to start *accusing other people of being abusers* is kind of fucked up.
no i know i said a shitty slur and that i shoudl know beter than to say because ive had it said at and about me for twenty eight fuckin years and im very very sorry about that especially to all you other autistic/nd folks. not one single other thing i said to that one tho
Except I didn’t try to minimize it because it’s a comments section.
I pointed out that it just makes the red flags clearer that it happened on this comic.
I did not start that fight. I did not do most of the things the two of you accused me of.
… You absolutely started labeling people abusers, Beef. You 100% decided to turn it to be personal. You straight up said:
“And then there’s you pulling autism in as an excuse for being similarly socially awkward in real life.”
when people were trying to use real life experiences to simply *explain* things.
You absolutely, 100% turned this into a personal fight, because you started doing *personal attacks*.
Like, do you think calling people you have never met, over comments they have made in a comics section, abusers is just a chill OK cool thing to do?
Mod, You may also want to delete this comment chain too, I am unsure. With the original threads also gone, this is probably hard to parse for anyone else. I’m cool with whatever decision you make on that!
I worry about this when giving people gifts. Like, I really LIKE giving people stuff, but if it costs money, I know some people will feel uncomfortable. I’m glad Sal is communicating that.
Some people just don’t like gifts like that much, or still have to learn how to handle that, and that’s fine.
…on another note, that is also something someone who would not try to manipulate you would say. That’s why it works in a way to manipulate people lol
This was supposed to go elsewhere.
No. I didn’t.
I pointed out that a specific kind of boundary violation wasn’t okay. It was a more general observation with a side of “Check yourself if you’ve done this because it’s not okay.”
And for that, I wound up on the receiving end of a lot of personal attacks, and straight up misconstruals of what I was saying.
At no point did I ever claim that things mattered less because they happened in the comments section of a webcomic.
Everything matters.
And a lot of good discussion about boundaries got deleted with that thread.
I’m gonna ask you just stop talking to Taffy, please. You’re upset with each other, you are hurting each other, you’re not going to get anything productive out of it.
Like, “you’re throwing up red flags for being an abuser” and especially “pulling autism as an excuse”, nah, that ain’t okay. You don’t get to say that shit to anyone.
love ya bud
god i hope it includes me cuz im about to say some shit i cant take back
At this point, ignore them.
They’re trying to both claim you shouldn’t be taking this so seriously because it’s the comments forum of a webcomic. Out the other side of they’re mouth they’re accusing you of being an abuser for comments and statements made *in that same forum*, and straight up attributing to you arguments you have not made.
And if you have RSD, I’m sure as fuck it’s firing it off (it certainly was for me!). Continuing to engage with them is not healthy, because they seem to have decided to try and start personally attacking people.
(That said: I realize this is MUCH EASIER said than done)
(And yeah, given that they are trying to claim you are projecting when they… themselves projected arguments that neither of us made?)
Anyway, it’s clear you’ve decided you’re on a Holy Crusade or some shit, and sure as hell haven’t been reading responses in good faith, so I’m done with you now.
Hah! Clicked the long reply.
Ah well.
(Taffy, that last one wasn’t directed at you. XD)
youre right of course
(Yo also posting it here b/c I want to be sure: The “Holy Crusade” statement at the end of the last chain is not directed at you in any way. Clicked on the wrong reply and fucked up, because I am an incredible hypocrite and was not taking my own advice–but which I shall now take.)
it is 1200% fine by me. u’re cool in this quee’rs book.
(also yumi thank u for that thing you said previous)
Oh dear. Something bad happened this afternoon, didn’t it?
I’ll post a succinct account as a NPC here tomorrow (unless anyone asks me not to)
Nah, go for it.
A conversation on Sal’s boundaries vs Danny’s persistence, and on whether it was on Sal to make her boundaries clearer or on Danny to exercise better judgement, and on whether it makes a difference if one reads Danny as being on the spectrum, burst into flames over an unfortunately worded sentence that could be, and immediately was, construed as an accusation of being an abuser using autism as an excuse.
Again, I believe the wording was clumsy, there was likely a lack of sensitivity or alertness to common and damaging stereotypes about ND/ASD folks, and there was definitely a lot of strong feelings and painful memories on both sides, leaving little space for any benefit of the doubt.
I hope this account is fair enough and doesn’t hurt anyone’s feelings. I felt very sorry for and sympathetic to all involved.
Generally speaking? Don’t.
I think it’s kind of impossible not to talk about subject matter close to your heart and not have a visceral reaction, like, Been There, but if you’re engaging with someone here saying something wrong I think it’s better to attack their argument then to tell them to fuck off, and that’s if attacking their argument is worth having to dwell on it.
Supposed to be a reply to Felgraf right above me.
Oh I wasn’t planning on making them, it was more “hey what do when see them/is this condoned or not”.
Especially since someone is straight up *accusing another poster* of being an abuser, which seems kind of WAY past the line.
i din’t do shit to nobody
I mean Sal isn’t entirely wrong in these lines would sound suspicious to someone used to being manipulated and shit… but I think we can all agree with Danny that he isn’t smart enough to be this manipulative 😛
Poor Danny’s chronic Foot-in-Mouth is flaring up again…
Manipulation doesn’t require intelligence, just persistence.
Reminds me of that Jaiden Animations video about relationships. Not everyone who manipulates is even aware that they’re being manipulative (though perhaps it’s better to point it out anyway).
That’s an interesting point, but I struggle to believe someone can be manipulative without intent. I’ve always understood manipulation to be a deliberate set of behaviors filtered through a facade of outwardly reasonable actions. On the other hand, I”m reminded of, of all things, an episode of Rick & Morty. In I think Season 3, Rick takes Jerry to a swanky cosmic truck stop/amusemrnt park. At some point, Jerry fucks things up with a botched assassination attempt and he and Rick are temporarily stranded in the jungle. While they’re there, Rick tells Jerry in no uncertain terms that he thinks Jerry, whether he intends it or not, is a sort of predator, leeching off of Beth by being pathetic and “harmless”, and thereby worming his way out of any need for agency or personal power, which he instead gets from someone stronger than himself.
I’m not sure where I’m going with that, but it probably goes along with what you said? Introspection is important, kids.
Rick is right that Jerry’s is/was a pathetic parasite (I’ve fallen behind on any possible character development), but take Rick’s arguments with a grain of salt. The man canonically believes love and emotional attachment are toxic personality traits.
That said people can totally be abusive or manipulative without knowing it. For example, Linda undoubtedly considers herself a wonderful parent.
I would hesitate to start to start labeling people as “manipulative” without evidence of maliciousness (or at least negative impacts) because then you get into a grey area of what’s the difference between being manipulative vs being convincing or charismatic and other such problems.
It’s a good point there. I agree, i’m hesitant because when do you draw that line, but Rick Cartooncharacter isn’t of course the arbiter of wistom.
Yeah, whether or not she believes that she’s abusive, it’s highly unlikely for her to change anytime soon.
She believes what she does because she grew up with under the influence of those ideals (and may have even been abused herself); if she didn’t see that this way of thinking was distorted, it’s because everything else in her life was distorted around it to make it look reasonable.
That said, there are probably some MASSIVE distortions holding her reality together, and cognitive dissonance more or less guarantees that there aren’t changing anytime soon. When we have a heavy personal investment in a fallacious idea, we don’t just happily give it up when faced with inconsistent facts. We are more likely to distort or deny the facts to preserve the idea in question.
The plastic-ass-hell ideas held by Linda were probably injected into her so early on that they developed muscular connections to her sense of identity at many levels — self, family, community, even nationality. When those ideas are challenged, she feels threatening tremors in ALL those areas.
I had discussions like this with my fiance, who also came from a really toxic home. Her family would try to tell her I was manipulating her, so from her perspective it was two sides potentially manipulating her – how could she tell what was true? Anything I said could potentially be interpreted as double-manipulation.
What I ended up doing was encourage her to talk to other friends and her therapist about things, since that way, she’d have an outside perspective on things that I couldn’t control. While she did do that, it was also helpful to her to know that I was the party willing to let my perspective stand up to outside scrutiny, while her parents were not.
You know what this is really fucking good advice and if I ever find myself in a situation where my word can’t be trusted in this scenario I will encourage them to seek third, fourth and fifth opinions.
‘Cause like either I’m right and confirm that, or I’m wrong and was leading them astray and they find the answer they want.
*DING DING DING* We have a winner. Exactly. Apply the scientific method. If someone doesn’t want you replicating their experiment or looking at their data, you have reasonable cause to be highly suspicious of their claims. Same with peoples behaviour. If they aren’t willing to open themselves up for critique, then *something* likely won’t hold up.
n.b. this is *not* the same as the police state “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of”, specifically because you’re dealing with individual things on a case by case (or possibly class-action) basis. It’s more like a trial, with a jury, and maybe a peanut gallery.
This comment section is a mess. Wow.
Direct apologie for my individual part in said mess. Bit of a spiral, but nonetheless.
I’ll be honest, I knew it would be.
You don’t have to tell me what it is. But IS there something a person can say or do that will help you realize they’re NOT out to manipulate you? Because if not that’s a problem, for you.
Ooh that’s a thinker.
Honestly, I’m not sure there is.
If they say they’re not out to get you, they’re just lying because “that’s exactly what they want you to think”.
If they cave and (sarcastically or sincerely) say they are out to get you, that’s either a confession or misdirection to make you think they’re just being sarcastic (because they’re really out to get you).
Positive interactions over time just leave the “waiting for it” Sword of Damocles hanging over your head.
I completely understand why Sal is skeptical about no-strings-attached generosity, but if she lets it fester into paranoia it’s going to be a roadblock again and again and again, stopping her from receiving or enjoying the companionship she really wants. Unfortunately, it’s something she has to face herself, not something that’s going to heal on its own. Rejecting therapy doesn’t help, either.
If she likes Danny that way she could offer to buy him chocolates or something, if she doesn’t she could tell him to find someone else to give it to. If she’s on the edge she could tell him she hopes they brighten his room.
If she’s on the edge but leaning towards liking him she could buy a couple vases and split the flowers.
Although while she might be overreacting he is testing her bounderies right now.
As someone trying to cope with it, trauma’s a bloody bear. My partner of some years, the first person I’ve really loved in even more years, dropped a paycheck-and-then-some on a nice just-because surprise for me. And even all this time later, even after therapy and antidepressants and lifestyle changes and positive interactions, even though the two of us can technically afford things like that once every couple years or so, I still just all but threw it back in her face. Not because it was something I didn’t want or even really because I felt manipulated, but because on some level I still have enormous difficulty accepting sincere generosity and warm feelings as they are intended. “Nobody, *nobody* would do this for *me* without an ulterior motive.” Before you ask, we have at least a moderately healthy relationship and we’ve had a couple difficult but productive talks about it since I reflexively deadpan-rejected the gift. But damn, I simply couldn’t….I just couldn’t take the gift with a smile, and that still breaks me up.
I’m not sure a manipulative would ever say the 2nd one… or is that what they want us to believe ?
There’s no magic set of words that can demonstrate good faith. Unfortunately, Danny’s statements are ALSO things that people say with the best of intentions. But the “I’m too dumb to play games” thing is a classic manipulative strategy. Obfuscating stupidity, self-effacing humor, false humility. Politicians, salesmen, cult leaders, comedians, and good old-fashioned serial abusers all get enormous mileage out of self-critical disclaimers. Again, self-criticism can be an expression of actual humility or doubt, and even a technically dishonest statement can be wielded for beneficent effect.
In this case, instead of saying, “Would I lie to you?” Danny’s saying, “Could I lie to you?” which is a deceptively similar question. Either way, it is neither proof of good or bad faith — that’s ultimately something best determined by reviewing both their behavior and the explanations they offer for what they do.
Honestly if anything would demonstrate his good faith it would be him doing stuff for her in the past and not using it against her.
Problem is pointing that out would invalidate it.
Danny: So you’re saying that manipulative people would say what an honest person would say.
Sal: Because they’re manipulative!
Danny: So what would an honest person say?
Sal: Don’t exist.
at this point, Danny, GIVE UP.
i mean…she’s not wrong….