Definitely help, maybe not quite as helpful as he hopes it’ll be, but Joe’s been her sounding board for parent issues for a while, I think he knows by now how to help (its just a matter of him getting his head out of his butt to admit he cares enough to actually do it).
Both. The input itself will be crap but the fact that he’s trying even though they both know his empathy skills are nascent at best will make her feel a bit better about the way that she tried to be Becky’s friend when her mother died…. even if, ignorantly, she messed up. I am positive that is the way how Becky thinks about it.
I would consider the possibility that he tells her that she doesn’t have to worry about reminding Becky of it and making her feel sad because he already talked to Becky and inadvertently did it for her.
Hrmm….dark. But I think Joyce is selling herself a little short here. Pretty sure she’s a major reason Becky’s even made it this far and continues to keep her bright outlook.
Like realistically does anyone think Ross was a great support after Bonnie died? As far as we know Joyce was Becky’s only real friend before they went to college.
I mean, we saw in the last ghosts strip a bit of what happened – him sobbing inside the bedroom, Becky sitting outside in the hallway. So I’d say he probably wasn’t great support for her there. (In scrupulous fairness to Ross, I imagine most spouses would be emotionally devastated. In considerably less fairness, he then decided Bonnie couldn’t POSSIBLY have been dissatisfied with her life or have a mental illness prayer couldn’t treat alone, so clearly this was Satan’s fault. Becky does not seem onboard with that framing.)
At the same time, Joyce almost definitely thought suicide was a thing sinners did, and probably said horrible things like “what kind of person could reject God’s gift like that when life is so great?” or “I feel so bad for people who commit suicide. They must not have anyone trying to help them.” I think it’s within Past Joyce to have said some very ignorant foolish things.
Early Joyce was a pretty big yikes but there’s no reason to believe Becky “You can’t like boys and girls. Is there even a word for that?” McIntyre was wasn’t just as much indoctrinated into the more toxic aspects of their religious beliefs.
So Joyce’s fear of having said something tone death is probably also something Becky can probably understand and commiserate in. Plus again I can’t believe Joyce would have said anything worse than the bullshit Ross was probably spouting everyday.
Danny said it to Dorothy in reference to himself when he was working through his sexuality, but didn’t seem to take all that long to get over that speedbump when Dorothy told him that yes, liking both is a thing.
Becky said it in reference to Jennifer, who has also said it in reference to herself. Becky claimed to have learned that “turns out likin’ both is a thing” but later acted like Jennifer dating Asher was only a phase– albeit as part of an attempt at reverse psychology aimed at preventing Jennifer and Ruth from reuniting, so as per usual it’s hard to tell what Becky actually thinks.
Jennifer, meanwhile, has long insisted that she is completely straight and just, occasionally likes a girl here and there, which she thinks all straight women totally do OF COURSE, seems to be under the belief that bisexuality “only exists in porn,” and is now claiming that Ruth was “just a phase.” Jennifer’s admittedly kind of a dumbass at times, but I’m betting her struggle with the societal fetishization of bisexuality is probably close to the heart of the issue.
(Ruth seems to be the only person who accepted herself as bi pretty much immediately upon first having feelings for a girl, seemingly as a result of Canada’s educational system actually introducing her to the concept beforehand, and presumably only remained closeted because of the abuse-of-authority issue.)
no links because there’s a limit of two per comment and I’m too tired to debate which two individual comics are most relevant
…intentionally at the time. However, between not knowing the truth, and what she was taught, it’s fully possible she repeated some things to or around Becky in ‘other conversations’ .
–trigger warning–
Heck, here’s a tone deaf example: “Be grateful god took your mom with cancer and she fought it to the end so she’s in heaven. Can you imagine those poor souls who killed themselves before the end?”
Seems Joyce learned the truth behind BeckyMom’s death, at least (sorry, her name is escaping me right now). Congrats to everyone who called this, by the way! I was convinced she saw a pic from her parents’ anniversary or something.
I’m guessing Hank probably explained things to Joyce off-panel when they were visiting Ruth in the hospital and he was surprised to learn she still thought Bonnie died of cancer
Suicide. It was implied what with Becky’s freaked-out reaction to Ruth and Billie’s hospital admission, and then when they were breaking into Becky’s childhood home we saw a flashback of Becky discovering her mom passed out on the bed with a bottle of pills.
Could someone please remind me or drop a link to the strip referencing how Becky’s mom died? I don’t quite remember and A LOT has happened in this comic.
I don’t think it’s a Carol specific thing there. Hank was probably complicit in the initial fib, which I don’t completely blame them for as a parent – telling a teenager that their best friend’s mom suicided isn’t exactly a fun parenting moment. He was more surprised that she didn’t eventually learn the truth.
Not a direct correlation with the strip– very recent death, no birthdays involved– but still felt eerie loading the comic tonight and seeing this. Was wondering all day if I’d been as supportive as I needed to.
Specifically, as Robin oh-so-tactfully put it, in the hospital some time after the initial attempt. Given the phrasing and the cover story, probably in the ‘weeks-a month, maybe two’ range rather than days. Likely slow organ failure.
You make a good point. Becky’s been A Whole Lot recently, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she brushes it off in a really crummy way that she probably doesn’t even mean.
I could see her brushing it off, but I can’t imagine how she even could be tone deaf about it?
Like, if somebody doesn’t feel like discussing a traumatic event or something that’s a major source of grief for them, they aren’t obligated to, and if someone presses the issue anyway, they really have no business complaining or judging them for it
Grief and trauma are hard enough without people getting judgemental that you’re not doing it “right”
That’s not quite what I meant. Nobody’s saying she’s obligated to discuss anything or act a certain way about it, or at least I’m not saying that personally. I meant more along the lines of not being surprised if Becky says something about “My stupid mom’s stupid suicide” or “I’d do the same if I were married to Dad”. No judgement whatsoever on my end, only saying I could see it happening. She’s been known to deflect Big Stuff with a crass joke, is all.
Joyce freaking out about being shitty to a friend in the past? That’s relatable, but ultimately an unhelpful mindset to dwell on for too long. Basically wait for them to bring it up (so you’re not accidentally rubbing it in their face), and then immediately apologise in the least self-centered way you can (assuming you mean it and that’s something they want).
Ohhh, man. I didn’t watch Bleach but this song is so full of #Feels ♥ If we gonna do Anime Songs (yasss) I’ll be glad to do the chorus here if y’all come sing “Lost Heaven” from L’Arc with me |DDD
I gotta admit…did not see that coming as being the bookface memory she was freaking out about. Feels bad. Also kinda get that whole “not being told reason why someone died”. Not to the extent as Joyce, as she had it completely wrong, but someone important to me died, and I never knew how bad their condition was until years later after their death, when I was “old enough” to know everything. Thanks, I didn’t want the grief to ever go away, thanks for ripping it wide open again.
I feel like Joe is honestly one of the better people for this with, since yeah, he’s warning her he knows he’s probably going to bungle some of this, but I mean, she knows that.
when you lose someone you love in that distinct way, it feels like what everyone says to you is some awful, tone deaf things. when i lost my best friend like that, nothing anyone said or did helped. not because they were bad people, not because they weren’t trying, but because it’s such a specific feeling that’s so powerful that you can’t make better with simple words and actions
i’m sure some of the things joyce said and did were probably unhelpful, but not only is she a good thing because she probably said good things as well, but because she ACKNOWLEDGES that past her made mistakes. it’s also complicated because nobody told her how bonnie died, and death this way is a different kind of loss
it’s been really heart warming to read these past few strips and see how well this touchy subject is being handled. it’s hard and painful, but also relieving. my hats off and hearts out to you, willis. thank you for giving me media that i can connect to and can make me feel better
“here, i brought you some spackle for the giant, pulsing, ragged hole in your life”
for a good long while good intentions from the people you love are in and of themselves major sources of pain. idk if “survivor guilt” is the right term for it, but whatever it is, it’s strong shit.
…see, I know Joe’s going to try to help and probably either stumble at it or fail horribly, but Joyce seriously have you tried calling Jocelyne? She’s already completely familiar with this whole situation, and she’s shown herself to be trustworthy and amazingly supportive.
Re your second question, Joyce doesn’t know Jocelyne is trans yet (unless it happened off-screen over the timeskip) but it’s not like I was gonna use her deadname in the comment because of that.
We’ve got a chapter titled “Sister, Christian” coming up; maybe she’ll finally come out to Joyce. (Or it has to do with Joyce and her siblings’ relationship, or her friendship with Becky. We’ll have to wait and see.)
I’ve been giving it some thought, and I think it’s kinda inevitable that she’ll come out to Joyce (and/or Becky?) whenever she appears next, purely from a storytelling perspective— unless Ethan reappears first.
Willis seems (to me anyway) to be using the timeskip as a jumping-on point for new readers. Every time a character makes their first post-timeskip appearance it’s treated as a potential introduction to the character for new readers, so we dialogue that’s clearly been carefully constructed in such a way as to communicate the basic gist of what we learned about the characters in the first ten years to new readers, while still sounding like a conversation (either between characters who already know, or from one character who does to one who doesn’t) instead of an infodump. Basically, what TVTropes calls an “As You Know” (not linking because YOU WILL NEVER ESCAPE), just more subtle about it.
This approach, however, would kinda break down in Jocelyne’s case. Her first new appearance obviously has to communicate to new readers that she’s trans. We can’t have “two characters talking to each other about what they already know” because the only other person in the cast who she’s out to is Ethan… who hasn’t appeared at all since the time-skip. The only option left is “a character who knows telling a character who doesn’t,” and the only character who knows is Jocelyne herself. She has to tell somebody or new readers won’t know the truth.
This is largely immaterial if Ethan reappears first, but I still think Joyce is going to learn the truth soon.
I suspect she would’ve reached out to Joyce and Becky post-kidnapping (though evidently not immediately – maybe she was giving them some breathing room, maybe it was via text or something), and made it clear she was on Team Them in the imminent shitshow.
There’s been a vague indication she’s not out to them yet, which means she’s almost certainly being held in narrative reserve. Especially since she’s been skipped over in Patreon poll comics post-timeskip, I’m pretty near certain. (Possibly not in reserve for much longer, though, if speculation about the upcoming storyline titled ‘Sister, Christian’ is accurate.)
That said, I’m not certain if Jocelyne knew the details about Bonnie’s death – she lives on her own, though in easy visiting distance of the Browns, and it’s ambiguous just how nearby it is or how involved she was with the church. She can act dutiful and stay stealth, but she’s said that part of that is by avoiding situations where she’d be tempted to say things ‘she couldn’t take back’. (See also the dig at John’s car after the Post-Kidnapping Sibling Lunch. There’s clearly a limit to smiling and nodding before she starts making pointed comments.) It’s possible that she missed the gossip about cause of death because she stays on the fringes of the community.
And yeah, oh geez, I’m guessing she said things that were well meaning but probably not helpful since she thought she died from cancer. Talking about how sad but uncontrollable death by disease is probably won’t help. And yeah, I’m not gonna be shocked if church doctrine was very uncharitable to suicide victims.
I’m thinking it might have been even worse. “This was all in God’s plan” or something of that variety that’s horribly insensitive even if she HAD died of a disease.
Apropos of nothing, are Joe and Jacob still friends? Or did Joe’s little “you should date Joyce and by the way I’m kind of in love with her” incident make it too weird?
Just wondering because Joe’s taste in friends is one of the in-universe bits of proof that he doesn’t like the person he is when he’s at his worst. It wouldn’t be hard to find shitty dudes at IU who love to rate women on a scale of 1–10, but Joe hasn’t befriended any of those jerks.
Huh. Can you believe I had never thought of this point? But it’s a great one. Joe’s best friend is basically the incarnation of Well-Meaning, even if Danny messes up sometimes (which to me makes him more real and likeable, tbh?)
I really hope Jacob is still at least Joe’s workout pal. Having more positive male relationships would help him get unstuck from this… Ffff, can’t English tonight, but this “True Men are THIS WAY and it’s both awful and inevitable I’ll end up the same so at least I’ll minimize the damage” mindset.
Not so much ‘True Men’ as ‘his dad, specifically.’ Joe has the same fear of becoming his father that Amber (and AG, and Faz) had of hers. Which has the potential to be a very interesting dynamic if they ever let each other in enough to bond over it. (Especially since I don’t believe for a SECOND that Richard has actually solved his desire to cheat forever by meeting The One Magical Woman He Doesn’t Want To Cheat On, He Doesn’t Even Notice Other Women Now. My bet is Joe’s seen this play out before with girlfriends since the divorce, and he knows once the honeymoon period is over, it’ll start again.)
The issue seems to be that Joe (and Richard, who he learned from watching) thinks the primary driver in cheating or not cheating in a relationship is not being attracted to other people ever. In reality, plenty of people in happy, committed monogamous relationships notice other people are attractive. Hell, you can be actively attracted to someone else and not be cheating, provided you don’t act on that attraction.* Finding someone hot isn’t a thing you can control, but choosing to flirt with them, or sleep with them, is.
* Obvious caveat for open relationships and polyamory, it’s not cheating if your partner knows and is okay with the situation. But polyamory and cheating aren’t mutually exclusive – successful polyamorous relationships require communication and trust, and cheating’s ultimately a breakdown of those two things. Which is why emotional affairs are a thing.
For some reason my brain is thinking that Richard HAS solved his issue – but not in the way people would expect. I think he and Amber’s mom are swingers. I feel like there was a strip where this was revealed, but also my brain likes to just make stuff up, so there’s a 50/50 shot that This Was Actually A Thing.
Yep. When Joe explicitly asked if this was open, even.
Again, this is why I truly don’t trust Richard not to fuck it up. That sequence just SCREAMS ‘Joe has watched this happen more than once, and Richard has magical thinking.’
I imagine they likely still see each other working out, so yeah, they might be. It depends I guess on if Jacob is wanting a clean break from anyone event tangentially involved in the Raidah/Joyce/Jacob situation.
You cannot needlessly remind someone of their dead loved one, especially one who suicided. You can harp on it, you can be callous or unthinking, but they remember. Especially on the person’s birthday. And the day they died. Those dates are blaring neon signs all day. ESPECIALLY the first year.
My personal experience is it’s much better to acknowledge it up front- hey, thinking of you today- and then taking cues from the bereaved.
The worst thing my extended family did after my brother died was avoid bringing him up. He lived, he mattered. Remember him.
+5 Insightful (and not just because of your gravatar).
Respect to the people who say “Nothing anyone says helps” – but some of us experience the opposite: almost anything helps – just to know the person you’re talking to cares enough to say something.
I’ll admit the person who told me “It’s in God’s plan and she’s better off now and at least you have one left” was just over-the-top bad. But almost everything helps.
If you don’t know what to say, try “I don’t know what to say, but I’m sorry for your loss.”
Incidentally, just to call back to the screenshots thing real quick. On Windows 10, you can just hold the Windows button and hit Print Screen, and it’ll save it as a PNG in a specifically-made folder.
The correct thing to say is “Hey, Becky. I remembered that today would be your mother’s birthday, and I was wondering how you’re doing, or if you wanted to talk or hang out.”
That leaves it open for Becky to say if she wants to talk or not, and if so, what tone that takes.
My bro called it, and I was torn between this possibility, or the anniversary of Joyce’s parents. I now owe him a chocolate bar, but feels like nobody won.
…………….Also holy shit, it’s no wonder Becky has been all over the place and doing her best to push her brain to think of other things. There’s no way she doesn’t remember, but you can force yourself to act like it and hope you fake it ’till you make it… For a high cost. And then you’re bound to fail anyway.
My stepdaughter dealt with my late wife’s birthday by assigning that day to be her puppy’s birthday as a potent distraction. Dog gets all the birthday celebrations. I’m still trying to move past the “get blindingly drunk” phase of coping.
Yep. Becky’s primary coping mechanism is avoidance and being the Happy Lovable Goofball so that no one knows she has feelings. It’s been getting a workout today, and this recontextualizes a lot of her behavior since the timeskip – she’s known the day was coming, and she lost BOTH her parents since that last birthday. (Which was probably also their last family holiday together, though we don’t know when Becky or Ross’s birthdays are.)
Because while she comes off as obnoxious, it does serve its intended purpose – most people accept that Becky’s just like that and move on. (After the ghosts strip linked upthread, for instance, Becky’s clearly not okay to us, the audience. And then when Joyce and Jocelyne are back where they can see her, Becky’s perky and talking about the money she found as ‘how many haircuts’ it’d buy and joking with Joyce about going to jail for a granola bar.) It’s one of the reasons why I’m excited Dorothy is her roommate – she’s one of the few people who sees through the facade.
To be clear, Becky definitely crosses the line from ‘goofball’ to ‘Becky, no’ at times, especially since the timeskip. She grew up with Joyce, so I’m not surprised her jokes need calibrating. But, like with Walky, most of the cast takes her at her word and doesn’t recognize this as a coping mechanism from growing up in an abusive household, or that she’s covering her real feelings right now.
I’ve said before that one of my favorite things about this comic is how often it focuses on characters cover facades, while giving the audience occasional glimpses beneath them.
Less thrilled by how much the audience seems to ignore the depths and focus only on the facades.
Reasonable. It helps that the cast has a higher-than-average proportion of goofballs and goofball tolerance (note that Dorothy dated WALKY) and also they’re a bunch of 18-21-year-olds. Poor life choices and saying dumb shit abound.
Being the happy, lovable goofball was my coping method through an unspeakably stressful teen years, spoiler alert it didn’t work. Still got PTSD and depression.
I didn’t realize Bonnie died so recently. Somehow, I had gotten the impression that it had been a few years — like, early high school (or what would be high school if they weren’t homeschooled). That really sucks. :/
Honestly I thought her mum died when Becky was 15/16 or so before this strip. Becky’s been going through some shit in under a year, even more so than the rest of the cast.
It was only confirmed pretty recently (I think during the hall meeting when Becky was talking about the last year,) but hinted at by Becky’s hair in the last ghosts strip – since we know she was only allowed to cut it because she ‘accidentally’ got glue in it but it was still shorter when the strip started, the fact that it appears to be short in that final strip suggests it occurred fairly recently, and the framing of it with the rest of the flashbacks suggests that it wasn’t long after Bonnie’s death. (Becky has long hair when she finds Bonnie post-attempt, for the record.) There was also a Patreon strip that suggested it was pretty recent around the kidnapping, but since a sizable chunk of the comments don’t have those it was easily missed. I think I started getting the vibe around Robin trying to comfort Becky after Ross’s death, but I can’t remember if that was actively hinted there or if it was because I’d read the Patreon strip.
Also, as I said downthread, the cancer cover story comes off way more as overprotective but understandable adults if Becky and Joyce were younger when it happened, even as that gave Becky less support and room to grieve.
Unfortunately, that assumes the adults of the congregation were in any way defensible.
Given Becky seems to have had complicated feelings about Bonnie’s death (per her talk with Amber post-Blaine’s death, which seems way too soon to have been about Ross,) and also puts Joyce on a bit of a pedestal, I wonder if she didn’t want Joyce to judge her for thinking Bad Things about her dead mom.
I could also see Ross telling her to keep it secret, so as not to soil Bonnie’s memory when it was Satan’s fault, and Hank somehow pieced it together himself, but his shock at Joyce not knowing suggests to me it was at least somewhat known.
He didn’t run away screaming, literally or metaphorically, Joyce. That’s a good sign. It looks like he’s taking this seriously and that your happiness is more important to him than how uncomfortable the emotional context of this is making him.
Hmm, am I the only one who thought the last panel was referring to the fact that it was actually Joe, not Joyce, who needlessly reminded Becky of what day it was today? Maybe not, but Joe might suddenly be feeling a little guilty about invading Becky’s class today.
I don’t think that’s crossed his mind, though it’s not impossible. I figure he more just knows he puts his foot in his mouth sometimes, especially when it comes to sensitive topics.
If thats the case then Joe really did help because Becky now knows that Joyce knows and Becky also knows that Joyce cares (by looking sad) and Becky will also be prepared for whatever Joyce comes up with
I think it was Joyce in her dream remembering what she said to Becky in reality. And from her reaction, she remembers exactly what she said. Which means that Willis had this moment in mind, or something like it, way back when he drew the Rich Mullins strips.
When Mullins asks what she said to Becky, she gets a bad reaction face, which suggests she remembers what she did say to Becky and that she now realizes how bad it was.
There’s something incredibly sweet in the way Joyce and Joe are watching each other in the last panel ♡. Besides that, I dunno why.., but I thought Becky’s mother death was happened at least three years before now.
Kinda harder than it seems when you consider that Bonnie was part of Joyce’s extended family in many ways and she may need comfort as much as she wonders if Becky does.
I think the cleanest solution for everyone is if Joyce and Becky simultaneously and independently decide to frog-march into the hall, stand directly face-to-face, 120 inches apart, wait 3 seconds, and just silently duke it out in a vicious fisticuffs the likes of which this campus has never seen.
Been a tough year for Becky. Losing her mom in a traumatic way. Leaving home for college. The disaster at her Christian college. Fleeing for her life from her dad. Homelessness. Kidnapping at gun point. Chase and crash. A minute of happiness. Then another kidnapping. All her friends threatened with death. Another traumatic death of a parent. Becky is the main character and she’s not in the strip.
Just give her a hug Joyce. She doesn’t need to be alone.
That’s pretty much my take. Don’t start by saying anything. Just give her a big hug, preferably when you’re alone. Let her decide if she wants to talk about it or not.
Nope! The adults in Joyce’s and Becky’s lives actively failed Becky by keeping Joyce in the dark to needlessly protect her or something, thus limiting Becky’s ability to talk openly about it with her best friend! (We could tell from the ghosts strip that Becky was at least a young teen when it happened – she’s near her adult height and has visible boobs – but I can see the ‘cancer’ cover story making people think they were much younger because it’s way more defensible with kids than a near-adult.)
I’m genuinely shocked that Becky’s mom’s death happened last spring. That seems so… quick for everything. Also it feels incredibly irresponsible of the Browns to lie to a 17 almost 18 year old Joyce about her best friend’s mother’s cause of death. It seemed more plausible (even if distasteful) when I thought it was a 13-15 year old they were lying to.
It’s also astounding how quickly Becky’s dad spiraled. I thought he was a guy slowly radicalized after years of grief, not someone who went from regular evangelical to “planning to shoot his daughter to save her from sin” in months.
My guess is there faith bullshit led them to believe that suicide is shameful and sinful, and that it shouldn’t even be spoken of or acknowledged, especially towards IMPRESSIONABLE minds like Joyce’s.
You’re making the assumption that he spiraled and that Bonnie’s death was the start of it.
She may well have been a moderating force on him, but it seems likely he was always basically that bad. It’s just that it wasn’t until his daughter was in full rebellion that he felt he had to go to those extremes. He would have earlier, but she still seemed under proper control.
It’s long been speculated that his behavior at least contributed to whatever led to Bonnie’s suicide.
I think it’s absolutely, abundantly clear that the crux of Toedad’s character is that he valued his perfect suburban home life for Jesus when it came down to it, but I don’t think we’ve ever seen the full minutiae of his life.
It’s all up in the air because we don’t know anything what their homelife was like. The closest we’ve got was a flashback strip where he tells Becky she’s not allowed to win a Frozen doll at a carnival because “it encourages children to disobey their parents” (which is something Joyce also was forbidden from doing by her folks), and a Patreon bonus strip where he and Becky are in their kitchen transparently emotionally devastated. Plus, while the Toedad Redemption Arc was never on the table the whole second go-around at kidnapping and threatening murder has him speak and hold himself a lot more differently than the raging, uncontrollable gunman he was the first time it happened.
I absolutely think he contributed but I think those contributions were more “don’t worry, honey, Jesus will sort it out instead of those godless psychiatrists.”
We do have a couple points indicating Ross was actively controlling, of Becky at least – she didn’t have a cell phone before stealing Robin’s because he wouldn’t let her (as a college freshman, that’s a dang unusual restriction, but a cell phone is both a source of independent socialization and internet access he can’t easily supervise,) and she had to ‘accidentally’ get glue in her hair to be allowed to cut it even as short as Joyce’s, because it was ‘her femininity’ and had to be protected – and note that Bonnie has always been shown with very long hair herself, compared to Joyce’s and Carol’s. There was also some hinting that Becky knew how to sneak in and out of her own home – they only ran into a problem because her bedroom window was locked. Hank, who was formerly a Good Christian Congregation Member but who did have limits pre-Family Weekend (given his dig at Southern Baptists being TOO extreme back when Joyce remembers moving churches as a kid), also didn’t seem to like Ross so much as tolerate him because Joyce loved Becky. So I think he was definitely farther fringe than the Browns were, at least farther than Hank, and maybe a bit more than the congregation on average. He was definitely a controlling parent, and almost certainly religiously abusive the same way Carol was – Willis describes it as a cult, after all, and Ross was a true believer – but Becky also clearly had some affection for and good memories of him, as well. I suspect it was on the whole similar for Bonnie as his wife. Not a good husband because of the controlling, but not as transparently evil as Blaine, I don’t think.
My suspicion is honestly that Ross factored into Bonnie’s depression as much about what he represented as what he actively did.* The ‘I’m gonna be a fucking scientist’ strip sums up the life Becky and Joyce, and by extension Bonnie, were allowed – find a good Christian man, marry him and have his children, raise and educate them properly, only enough education yourself to teach them. I imagine Bonnie had a similar upbringing to them, and found it as stifling as Becky did intellectually. But Bonnie never broke out, and eventually that crushed her. If that’s the case, her husband could’ve been more like Hank and she’d still be deeply depressed, because even Hank enforced those strict gender roles on his kids (trying to push Jocelyne to be properly gender-conforming, Joyce only allowing herself the wife and mother and homeschool education track – Carol may have had the bigger hand there, but even if so Hank definitely still allowed it enough Jocelyne was surprised to hear he sided with Becky,) and probably wouldn’t have thought differently about his wife until actively confronted with her saying ‘I need this.’ Which would probably have required a shitload of therapy.
* Though obviously, given Ross enforced the rules for Becky, he probably also enforced them for Bonnie, which is an active action of his. But if she was raised in the same sort of faith, it may never have occurred to her she could want more, the same way Joyce has to take a minute and Dorothy’s prompting during the Gender Studies marriage exercise to allow herself to think ‘fighter pilot.’
* I also wouldn’t rule out Ross being physically abusive, though, given Becky’s noticeable non-reaction when he slaps her during the car chase – she’s never even brought it up since, IIRC – and the sheer number of red flags during that scene beyond ‘escalated to kidnapping at gunpoint.’ But that’s entirely speculative on my part, not anything we have active textual evidence for – since Becky had 911 on the line and he saw the phone immediately after the slap, she may simply not have had time to process it. Still, it’s worth mentioning.
Well yeah I think all of what you listed happened, though admittedly I didn’t think of the implications in those strips about Becky you mentioned wrt her haircut and the phone.
Like, Becky’s upbringing was abusive and controlling no matter how you slice it, I really only think it’s vague on whether he was Blaine or Hank and Carol on overdrive. Like, Blaine absolutely knows what he was doing, he knows people around him would revolt if they saw how he treated his wife and daughter, whereas I think with Toedad he’d say thing he believed were sensible, and didn’t really think about how anyone outside his bubble would consider that.
Given that we’re, presumably, going to talk about Bonnie this storyline, I imagine we’re going to get some more understanding on Becky’s homelife, but yeah I do think Bonnie’s story is “what would have happened to Joyce and Becky if they went too deep and couldn’t get out.”
They’re both relatively minor points that haven’t come up in some time – I’m pretty sure Becky did get a pay-as-you-go phone while she was still living with Leslie rather than stealing Robin’s permanently, and I think the glue bit only came up during the visit home, plus by now it’s weird to see her hair as long as it was at the start of the strip – so they’re easy to miss or forget the implications of.
I agree on both points. Ross definitely strikes me as someone who genuinely believed God was on his side and didn’t care what other people thought of it, because anyone who judged him was godless and hellbound. Blaine knew how he looked to outsiders, and even if he convinced himself that it was TOTALLY about the money, or that it was CLEARLY impossible for Faz to be his biological son (and by now I think the implication’s clear that he is,) he recognized he should hide his actions from them. Right up until he’d impulsively lash out, anyway.
They’re very different types. Ross was almost certainly less deliberately cruel, but I’m not sure how much better he would have been to live with.
Becky certainly has all the emotional armor that comes of having survived an abusive childhood. That’s deep rooted, not just since she came out, or even since Bonnie’s death. All the coping mechanisms she has and Joyce completely lacks.
After reading comments, I wonder if lunch for Becky and Dina ran late because they were talking about her mom. It also makes much more sense that Becky empathize “today” when Joe told her about sad looks.
I also didn’t realize how recently Becky’s mom died. It makes sense that ToeDad was still so… reactive to Becky acting against his wishes. It in no way excuses his actions, but it does recontextualize it a little for me. I thought he’d had a couple of years to grieve and process his wife’s suicide, but he was still very much reeling. It makes sense that he’d want to try to control his daughter and make her into the perfect version of his dead wife. (Obviously, ‘makes sense’ and ‘this is the right and helpful thing to do’ are very much at odds here.)
But jeeeeze. That means Becky lost both parents within a year, and I can’t even imagine how she’s dealing, especially with how traumatic both deaths were. I guess Joyce is dealing with second-hand trauma here on Becky’s behalf, as well as her own trauma both old and new. These gals really need each other right now. I hope that Joe can give Joyce the nudge she needs to just talk to her best friend right now.
Joe has become surprisingly self-aware. Despite the fact that he’s still a d-bag horn dog, he’s probably had the most character growth oraode of maybe Joyce.
Loading ...
My mom just had her birthday (even though she said she wouldn’t), hoping it’s not her last one =(
Dumbing of Age Book 11: Remember, Joe, You Begged For This
Kinda thinking that’s for a Slipshine.
Holy moly, that’s a really good opening for some really nice imagery.
I’m picturing Roz in BDSM gear and holding a riding crop.
Roz? Send her home, I was thinkin’ Joyce.
Roz works from a script, but Joyce has to improvise. Both approaches have their pros and cons.
For some reason, I thought of Lucy.
*offers gesture of sympathy* 🙁
Let’s learn to be less tone deaf together.
DoA Karaoke night it is!
Oh goodie!!! Come down and suggest some songs!
Might I suggest the works of Tom Lehrer?
YES. Although, for today’s strip maybe Tom Paxton’s “Forest Lawn.”
That would certainly make my trips to the Karaoke bar more bearable for everyone else.
Get your bets in, folks:
Does Joe’s upcoming input help or harm?
A little bit of both, I’d guess!
Let’s face it: In most interactions, it’s rare to be all of one and not the other.
The mere fact that he’s there, and cares enough to try to help, is helpful.
Otherwise, harm. Totally harm.
I’m going to err on the side of hopefulness and say it will help.
My fingers are crossed that you’re right, but we know who writes this strip
It’ll be something crass and blunt, but with sympathy and care buried inside.
Obviously it’ll be as helpful as he possibly can muster. He’s not exactly a psych expert so regardless of what he says it could help or harm.
Definitely help, maybe not quite as helpful as he hopes it’ll be, but Joe’s been her sounding board for parent issues for a while, I think he knows by now how to help (its just a matter of him getting his head out of his butt to admit he cares enough to actually do it).
Ten bucks say Joe lawndarts his advice/sympathy.
Since I’m generally close but still a miss, Imma sit this one out.
It’ll be exactly what she needs to hear, until the last sentence which is completely inappropriate.
Both. The input itself will be crap but the fact that he’s trying even though they both know his empathy skills are nascent at best will make her feel a bit better about the way that she tried to be Becky’s friend when her mother died…. even if, ignorantly, she messed up. I am positive that is the way how Becky thinks about it.
I’m hoping his advice will be good, but I worry that he’ll word it in a way that makes her not like what he has to say.
I would consider the possibility that he tells her that she doesn’t have to worry about reminding Becky of it and making her feel sad because he already talked to Becky and inadvertently did it for her.
Yes.
Hrmm….dark. But I think Joyce is selling herself a little short here. Pretty sure she’s a major reason Becky’s even made it this far and continues to keep her bright outlook.
Like realistically does anyone think Ross was a great support after Bonnie died? As far as we know Joyce was Becky’s only real friend before they went to college.
We have every reason to think that Joyce was Becky’s only real friend prior to college.
Yeah, like they had church acquaintances, but Joyce was definitely her main link.
Ross is a great support the way a marsh is good at holding up buildings.
I mean, we saw in the last ghosts strip a bit of what happened – him sobbing inside the bedroom, Becky sitting outside in the hallway. So I’d say he probably wasn’t great support for her there. (In scrupulous fairness to Ross, I imagine most spouses would be emotionally devastated. In considerably less fairness, he then decided Bonnie couldn’t POSSIBLY have been dissatisfied with her life or have a mental illness prayer couldn’t treat alone, so clearly this was Satan’s fault. Becky does not seem onboard with that framing.)
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/lasttime/
At the same time, Joyce almost definitely thought suicide was a thing sinners did, and probably said horrible things like “what kind of person could reject God’s gift like that when life is so great?” or “I feel so bad for people who commit suicide. They must not have anyone trying to help them.” I think it’s within Past Joyce to have said some very ignorant foolish things.
Early Joyce was a pretty big yikes but there’s no reason to believe Becky “You can’t like boys and girls. Is there even a word for that?” McIntyre was wasn’t just as much indoctrinated into the more toxic aspects of their religious beliefs.
So Joyce’s fear of having said something tone death is probably also something Becky can probably understand and commiserate in. Plus again I can’t believe Joyce would have said anything worse than the bullshit Ross was probably spouting everyday.
I might be wrong, but I think that line came from Danny, not Becky.
They both said something similar, in reference to different people
Danny said it to Dorothy in reference to himself when he was working through his sexuality, but didn’t seem to take all that long to get over that speedbump when Dorothy told him that yes, liking both is a thing.
Becky said it in reference to Jennifer, who has also said it in reference to herself. Becky claimed to have learned that “turns out likin’ both is a thing” but later acted like Jennifer dating Asher was only a phase– albeit as part of an attempt at reverse psychology aimed at preventing Jennifer and Ruth from reuniting, so as per usual it’s hard to tell what Becky actually thinks.
Jennifer, meanwhile, has long insisted that she is completely straight and just, occasionally likes a girl here and there, which she thinks all straight women totally do OF COURSE, seems to be under the belief that bisexuality “only exists in porn,” and is now claiming that Ruth was “just a phase.” Jennifer’s admittedly kind of a dumbass at times, but I’m betting her struggle with the societal fetishization of bisexuality is probably close to the heart of the issue.
(Ruth seems to be the only person who accepted herself as bi pretty much immediately upon first having feelings for a girl, seemingly as a result of Canada’s educational system actually introducing her to the concept beforehand, and presumably only remained closeted because of the abuse-of-authority issue.)
no links because there’s a limit of two per comment and I’m too tired to debate which two individual comics are most relevant
As far as Joyce was aware, it was cancer. She didn’t know it was a suicide, so probably didn’t say anything like that.
…intentionally at the time. However, between not knowing the truth, and what she was taught, it’s fully possible she repeated some things to or around Becky in ‘other conversations’ .
–trigger warning–
Heck, here’s a tone deaf example: “Be grateful god took your mom with cancer and she fought it to the end so she’s in heaven. Can you imagine those poor souls who killed themselves before the end?”
Meanwhile, Amber is reminded of why she’s happy when she’s absorbed in her phone.
“It’s too people-y out there.”
Seems Joyce learned the truth behind BeckyMom’s death, at least (sorry, her name is escaping me right now). Congrats to everyone who called this, by the way! I was convinced she saw a pic from her parents’ anniversary or something.
Also-
Panel 1 Joe: “Well this isn’t nearly as bad as I thought, I thought someone died or something!”
Panel 2 Joe: “Oh. Oh no.”
I’m guessing Hank probably explained things to Joyce off-panel when they were visiting Ruth in the hospital and he was surprised to learn she still thought Bonnie died of cancer
How did Bonnie die? I don’t recall if it was in the comic.
Suicide. It was implied what with Becky’s freaked-out reaction to Ruth and Billie’s hospital admission, and then when they were breaking into Becky’s childhood home we saw a flashback of Becky discovering her mom passed out on the bed with a bottle of pills.
Thanks for clarifying- I really didn’t remember that.
Oh please let this end well, I don’t want either to end up choking on their oen foot.
I don’t know why I’m hoping, Wllis is a cruel individual when it comes to our hopes.
Own*
Could someone please remind me or drop a link to the strip referencing how Becky’s mom died? I don’t quite remember and A LOT has happened in this comic.
TW: suicide
And here’s the strip where we (and Hank) learned that Carol lied to Joyce about it.
I don’t think it’s a Carol specific thing there. Hank was probably complicit in the initial fib, which I don’t completely blame them for as a parent – telling a teenager that their best friend’s mom suicided isn’t exactly a fun parenting moment. He was more surprised that she didn’t eventually learn the truth.
I always forget how good of a person Jocelyne is. She’s always there for Joyce.
Probably suicide.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/ghosts/
I don’t have a link handy at the moment, but Becky’s mom committed suicide. Becky was also the one who discovered her.
…well this reveal landing today is oddly specific timing for me personally
Birthday?
Not a direct correlation with the strip– very recent death, no birthdays involved– but still felt eerie loading the comic tonight and seeing this. Was wondering all day if I’d been as supportive as I needed to.
Oof. Sympathy to all involved.
Appropriate gesture of support.
Shit. Socially distanced sympathy hug.
All the appropriate gestures of support and sympathy via internet comment. I’m sorry to hear that.
Are you a mom? Is it your birthday?
Sorry to hear this comic is hitting hard but I just had to say A+ Username.
You have my condolences
If cancer didn’t kill her, what did? Or who?
Oops, I found my answer. Thanks, RsssilonTDavros.
Content warning here.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/ghosts/
Probably suicide. Becky found her mom dead or dying with a pretty much empty pill bottle beside her.
Specifically, as Robin oh-so-tactfully put it, in the hospital some time after the initial attempt. Given the phrasing and the cover story, probably in the ‘weeks-a month, maybe two’ range rather than days. Likely slow organ failure.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/connelly/
Suicide
I was kind of right.
I’d kind of like to not have been right.
Becky will probably say some tonedeaf things about her mother’s death.
You make a good point. Becky’s been A Whole Lot recently, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she brushes it off in a really crummy way that she probably doesn’t even mean.
I could see her brushing it off, but I can’t imagine how she even could be tone deaf about it?
Like, if somebody doesn’t feel like discussing a traumatic event or something that’s a major source of grief for them, they aren’t obligated to, and if someone presses the issue anyway, they really have no business complaining or judging them for it
Grief and trauma are hard enough without people getting judgemental that you’re not doing it “right”
That’s not quite what I meant. Nobody’s saying she’s obligated to discuss anything or act a certain way about it, or at least I’m not saying that personally. I meant more along the lines of not being surprised if Becky says something about “My stupid mom’s stupid suicide” or “I’d do the same if I were married to Dad”. No judgement whatsoever on my end, only saying I could see it happening. She’s been known to deflect Big Stuff with a crass joke, is all.
Joyce freaking out about being shitty to a friend in the past? That’s relatable, but ultimately an unhelpful mindset to dwell on for too long. Basically wait for them to bring it up (so you’re not accidentally rubbing it in their face), and then immediately apologise in the least self-centered way you can (assuming you mean it and that’s something they want).
*hacks into Bierce’s Muzak panel with boltcutters, axe and two cans of Red Bull*
*wires it into Voxola PR-76 in absence of fuses*
*plays “The Innocent Abandoned” by Overdawn on Voxola-Muzak hybrid system*
C’mon.
It was the only song I could think of that fit the mood of the strip.
But if Yotomoe and Doctor_Who are still up for it, we can still use this setup for a Karaoke night!
Any song suggestions?
I’m always up for Karaoke Night! Though I don’t have any song suggestions that 100% fit this.
I did hum How To Save A Life a little, tho. Because I’m awful like that |DD
How about “Life is Like a Boat” by Rie Fu?
Ohhh, man. I didn’t watch Bleach but this song is so full of #Feels ♥ If we gonna do Anime Songs (yasss) I’ll be glad to do the chorus here if y’all come sing “Lost Heaven” from L’Arc with me |DDD
Perfect!
Now, I’m off on a little intermission to make some Pebre to put on some Omu-raisu!
“Homage to the Suffering” maybe? Matthew Perryman-Jones.
Only thing I could think of suitable for this group was this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l482T0yNkeo&ab_channel=acdcVEVO
Don’t miss your exit.
Well.
He tried.
Nah not yet. Let him say what he’s going to say.
THEN we can say there was an attempt.
Well.
He’s about to try.
Better?
I gotta admit…did not see that coming as being the bookface memory she was freaking out about. Feels bad. Also kinda get that whole “not being told reason why someone died”. Not to the extent as Joyce, as she had it completely wrong, but someone important to me died, and I never knew how bad their condition was until years later after their death, when I was “old enough” to know everything. Thanks, I didn’t want the grief to ever go away, thanks for ripping it wide open again.
Huh. I thought it was going to be something along the lines of the Browns’ divorce getting finalized. At least this is…
… well, okay, it’s worse, but at least it’s an OLD worse rather than a NEW worse…
…. okay no I don’t know how this scale works.
The trap is thinking about it as a scale, rather than a large, spinning sphere that rolls around the circumference.
…. so trauma and grief are Spirographs?
That explains so much while still explaining nothing at all.
Spirographs is one way to put it, but this is another way to put it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Considered_as_a_Helix_of_Semi-Precious_Stones#:~:text=December%201968-,%22Time%20Considered%20as%20a%20Helix%20of%20Semi%2DPrecious%20Stones%22,for%20Best%20Novelette%20in%201969.
I’m really hoping this link doesn’t get borked.
I feel like Joe is honestly one of the better people for this with, since yeah, he’s warning her he knows he’s probably going to bungle some of this, but I mean, she knows that.
This is going to be interesting.
when you lose someone you love in that distinct way, it feels like what everyone says to you is some awful, tone deaf things. when i lost my best friend like that, nothing anyone said or did helped. not because they were bad people, not because they weren’t trying, but because it’s such a specific feeling that’s so powerful that you can’t make better with simple words and actions
i’m sure some of the things joyce said and did were probably unhelpful, but not only is she a good thing because she probably said good things as well, but because she ACKNOWLEDGES that past her made mistakes. it’s also complicated because nobody told her how bonnie died, and death this way is a different kind of loss
it’s been really heart warming to read these past few strips and see how well this touchy subject is being handled. it’s hard and painful, but also relieving. my hats off and hearts out to you, willis. thank you for giving me media that i can connect to and can make me feel better
*good FRIEND, not good thing. got a little emotional typing this and so some wording is a little awkward
“here, i brought you some spackle for the giant, pulsing, ragged hole in your life”
for a good long while good intentions from the people you love are in and of themselves major sources of pain. idk if “survivor guilt” is the right term for it, but whatever it is, it’s strong shit.
…see, I know Joe’s going to try to help and probably either stumble at it or fail horribly, but Joyce seriously have you tried calling Jocelyne? She’s already completely familiar with this whole situation, and she’s shown herself to be trustworthy and amazingly supportive.
Has Joyce even been in contact with her? And does Joyce know about her situation?
Joyce called her to ask if Carol was a good person a few days before the kidnapping.
Re your second question, Joyce doesn’t know Jocelyne is trans yet (unless it happened off-screen over the timeskip) but it’s not like I was gonna use her deadname in the comment because of that.
Fair enough.
We’ve got a chapter titled “Sister, Christian” coming up; maybe she’ll finally come out to Joyce. (Or it has to do with Joyce and her siblings’ relationship, or her friendship with Becky. We’ll have to wait and see.)
I’ve been giving it some thought, and I think it’s kinda inevitable that she’ll come out to Joyce (and/or Becky?) whenever she appears next, purely from a storytelling perspective— unless Ethan reappears first.
Willis seems (to me anyway) to be using the timeskip as a jumping-on point for new readers. Every time a character makes their first post-timeskip appearance it’s treated as a potential introduction to the character for new readers, so we dialogue that’s clearly been carefully constructed in such a way as to communicate the basic gist of what we learned about the characters in the first ten years to new readers, while still sounding like a conversation (either between characters who already know, or from one character who does to one who doesn’t) instead of an infodump. Basically, what TVTropes calls an “As You Know” (not linking because YOU WILL NEVER ESCAPE), just more subtle about it.
This approach, however, would kinda break down in Jocelyne’s case. Her first new appearance obviously has to communicate to new readers that she’s trans. We can’t have “two characters talking to each other about what they already know” because the only other person in the cast who she’s out to is Ethan… who hasn’t appeared at all since the time-skip. The only option left is “a character who knows telling a character who doesn’t,” and the only character who knows is Jocelyne herself. She has to tell somebody or new readers won’t know the truth.
This is largely immaterial if Ethan reappears first, but I still think Joyce is going to learn the truth soon.
I suspect she would’ve reached out to Joyce and Becky post-kidnapping (though evidently not immediately – maybe she was giving them some breathing room, maybe it was via text or something), and made it clear she was on Team Them in the imminent shitshow.
There’s been a vague indication she’s not out to them yet, which means she’s almost certainly being held in narrative reserve. Especially since she’s been skipped over in Patreon poll comics post-timeskip, I’m pretty near certain. (Possibly not in reserve for much longer, though, if speculation about the upcoming storyline titled ‘Sister, Christian’ is accurate.)
That said, I’m not certain if Jocelyne knew the details about Bonnie’s death – she lives on her own, though in easy visiting distance of the Browns, and it’s ambiguous just how nearby it is or how involved she was with the church. She can act dutiful and stay stealth, but she’s said that part of that is by avoiding situations where she’d be tempted to say things ‘she couldn’t take back’. (See also the dig at John’s car after the Post-Kidnapping Sibling Lunch. There’s clearly a limit to smiling and nodding before she starts making pointed comments.) It’s possible that she missed the gossip about cause of death because she stays on the fringes of the community.
Oh, hey, one of my guesses was right! Cool!
And yeah, oh geez, I’m guessing she said things that were well meaning but probably not helpful since she thought she died from cancer. Talking about how sad but uncontrollable death by disease is probably won’t help. And yeah, I’m not gonna be shocked if church doctrine was very uncharitable to suicide victims.
I’m thinking it might have been even worse. “This was all in God’s plan” or something of that variety that’s horribly insensitive even if she HAD died of a disease.
Yea
Apropos of nothing, are Joe and Jacob still friends? Or did Joe’s little “you should date Joyce and by the way I’m kind of in love with her” incident make it too weird?
Just wondering because Joe’s taste in friends is one of the in-universe bits of proof that he doesn’t like the person he is when he’s at his worst. It wouldn’t be hard to find shitty dudes at IU who love to rate women on a scale of 1–10, but Joe hasn’t befriended any of those jerks.
Huh. Can you believe I had never thought of this point? But it’s a great one. Joe’s best friend is basically the incarnation of Well-Meaning, even if Danny messes up sometimes (which to me makes him more real and likeable, tbh?)
I really hope Jacob is still at least Joe’s workout pal. Having more positive male relationships would help him get unstuck from this… Ffff, can’t English tonight, but this “True Men are THIS WAY and it’s both awful and inevitable I’ll end up the same so at least I’ll minimize the damage” mindset.
Not so much ‘True Men’ as ‘his dad, specifically.’ Joe has the same fear of becoming his father that Amber (and AG, and Faz) had of hers. Which has the potential to be a very interesting dynamic if they ever let each other in enough to bond over it. (Especially since I don’t believe for a SECOND that Richard has actually solved his desire to cheat forever by meeting The One Magical Woman He Doesn’t Want To Cheat On, He Doesn’t Even Notice Other Women Now. My bet is Joe’s seen this play out before with girlfriends since the divorce, and he knows once the honeymoon period is over, it’ll start again.)
The issue seems to be that Joe (and Richard, who he learned from watching) thinks the primary driver in cheating or not cheating in a relationship is not being attracted to other people ever. In reality, plenty of people in happy, committed monogamous relationships notice other people are attractive. Hell, you can be actively attracted to someone else and not be cheating, provided you don’t act on that attraction.* Finding someone hot isn’t a thing you can control, but choosing to flirt with them, or sleep with them, is.
* Obvious caveat for open relationships and polyamory, it’s not cheating if your partner knows and is okay with the situation. But polyamory and cheating aren’t mutually exclusive – successful polyamorous relationships require communication and trust, and cheating’s ultimately a breakdown of those two things. Which is why emotional affairs are a thing.
For some reason my brain is thinking that Richard HAS solved his issue – but not in the way people would expect. I think he and Amber’s mom are swingers. I feel like there was a strip where this was revealed, but also my brain likes to just make stuff up, so there’s a 50/50 shot that This Was Actually A Thing.
There wasn’t.
He said, way back when Joe first found out that they were exclusive and there’s been nothing to suggest anything different.
Yep. When Joe explicitly asked if this was open, even.
Again, this is why I truly don’t trust Richard not to fuck it up. That sequence just SCREAMS ‘Joe has watched this happen more than once, and Richard has magical thinking.’
I imagine they likely still see each other working out, so yeah, they might be. It depends I guess on if Jacob is wanting a clean break from anyone event tangentially involved in the Raidah/Joyce/Jacob situation.
Thats a really good point. He used to act like a bro, certainly got lucky with the ladies yet we’ve never really seen hang out with douche bros.
Interesting.
You cannot needlessly remind someone of their dead loved one, especially one who suicided. You can harp on it, you can be callous or unthinking, but they remember. Especially on the person’s birthday. And the day they died. Those dates are blaring neon signs all day. ESPECIALLY the first year.
My personal experience is it’s much better to acknowledge it up front- hey, thinking of you today- and then taking cues from the bereaved.
The worst thing my extended family did after my brother died was avoid bringing him up. He lived, he mattered. Remember him.
+5 Insightful (and not just because of your gravatar).
Respect to the people who say “Nothing anyone says helps” – but some of us experience the opposite: almost anything helps – just to know the person you’re talking to cares enough to say something.
I’ll admit the person who told me “It’s in God’s plan and she’s better off now and at least you have one left” was just over-the-top bad. But almost everything helps.
If you don’t know what to say, try “I don’t know what to say, but I’m sorry for your loss.”
Quick note for Panel 5 Joyce: a person can beg to know something, and still be uncomfortable with it once they know. I can definitely relate to that.
yea i thought that was odd of her to say. like duh he’s uncomfortable but that’s not the same as regret.
I don’t know. It seems to me that Willis might want to rethink that book title. They surely don’t want to use the same title as the yearbook for 2021.
Start the countdown: 24 hours left for Joe to live!
Well in comic time that’s easily a month or two.
Incidentally, just to call back to the screenshots thing real quick. On Windows 10, you can just hold the Windows button and hit Print Screen, and it’ll save it as a PNG in a specifically-made folder.
👍
The correct thing to say is “Hey, Becky. I remembered that today would be your mother’s birthday, and I was wondering how you’re doing, or if you wanted to talk or hang out.”
That leaves it open for Becky to say if she wants to talk or not, and if so, what tone that takes.
My bro called it, and I was torn between this possibility, or the anniversary of Joyce’s parents. I now owe him a chocolate bar, but feels like nobody won.
…………….Also holy shit, it’s no wonder Becky has been all over the place and doing her best to push her brain to think of other things. There’s no way she doesn’t remember, but you can force yourself to act like it and hope you fake it ’till you make it… For a high cost. And then you’re bound to fail anyway.
My stepdaughter dealt with my late wife’s birthday by assigning that day to be her puppy’s birthday as a potent distraction. Dog gets all the birthday celebrations. I’m still trying to move past the “get blindingly drunk” phase of coping.
Becky is doing well id say.
My sympathies as an internet stranger.
Yep. Becky’s primary coping mechanism is avoidance and being the Happy Lovable Goofball so that no one knows she has feelings. It’s been getting a workout today, and this recontextualizes a lot of her behavior since the timeskip – she’s known the day was coming, and she lost BOTH her parents since that last birthday. (Which was probably also their last family holiday together, though we don’t know when Becky or Ross’s birthdays are.)
I know she wants to be the “Happy Lovable Goofball” but thats not how she comes across to most of the cast, might be something she needs to work on
To the cast, or the audience? 😉
Because while she comes off as obnoxious, it does serve its intended purpose – most people accept that Becky’s just like that and move on. (After the ghosts strip linked upthread, for instance, Becky’s clearly not okay to us, the audience. And then when Joyce and Jocelyne are back where they can see her, Becky’s perky and talking about the money she found as ‘how many haircuts’ it’d buy and joking with Joyce about going to jail for a granola bar.) It’s one of the reasons why I’m excited Dorothy is her roommate – she’s one of the few people who sees through the facade.
To be clear, Becky definitely crosses the line from ‘goofball’ to ‘Becky, no’ at times, especially since the timeskip. She grew up with Joyce, so I’m not surprised her jokes need calibrating. But, like with Walky, most of the cast takes her at her word and doesn’t recognize this as a coping mechanism from growing up in an abusive household, or that she’s covering her real feelings right now.
I’ve said before that one of my favorite things about this comic is how often it focuses on characters cover facades, while giving the audience occasional glimpses beneath them.
Less thrilled by how much the audience seems to ignore the depths and focus only on the facades.
This explanation is spot on!
I think it’s because I tend to imagine how I’d react if it was happening to me as opposed to watching it from afar
Which makes Dorothy basically a Saint in my eyes
Reasonable. It helps that the cast has a higher-than-average proportion of goofballs and goofball tolerance (note that Dorothy dated WALKY) and also they’re a bunch of 18-21-year-olds. Poor life choices and saying dumb shit abound.
It certainly does
Being the happy, lovable goofball was my coping method through an unspeakably stressful teen years, spoiler alert it didn’t work. Still got PTSD and depression.
Welcome to being (occasionally) a caring friend, Joe; it’s about time you learned to do this for more people than Danny.
What is with these awful pop-up video ads that cannot be minimized??? Kill kill kill kill. Can we do anything to stop them?
You gotta report them to Hiveworks. Willis doesn’t pick the ads. Fortunately, Hiveworks has always been prompt for me.
If you’re using a mobile device, try Brave Brower.
Or just set whichever browser you’ve got to request the desktop version of the site.
I didn’t realize Bonnie died so recently. Somehow, I had gotten the impression that it had been a few years — like, early high school (or what would be high school if they weren’t homeschooled). That really sucks. :/
Honestly I thought her mum died when Becky was 15/16 or so before this strip. Becky’s been going through some shit in under a year, even more so than the rest of the cast.
Yeah, same here.
Yeah I thought it was earlier too.
It was only confirmed pretty recently (I think during the hall meeting when Becky was talking about the last year,) but hinted at by Becky’s hair in the last ghosts strip – since we know she was only allowed to cut it because she ‘accidentally’ got glue in it but it was still shorter when the strip started, the fact that it appears to be short in that final strip suggests it occurred fairly recently, and the framing of it with the rest of the flashbacks suggests that it wasn’t long after Bonnie’s death. (Becky has long hair when she finds Bonnie post-attempt, for the record.) There was also a Patreon strip that suggested it was pretty recent around the kidnapping, but since a sizable chunk of the comments don’t have those it was easily missed. I think I started getting the vibe around Robin trying to comfort Becky after Ross’s death, but I can’t remember if that was actively hinted there or if it was because I’d read the Patreon strip.
Also, as I said downthread, the cancer cover story comes off way more as overprotective but understandable adults if Becky and Joyce were younger when it happened, even as that gave Becky less support and room to grieve.
Unfortunately, that assumes the adults of the congregation were in any way defensible.
It does somewhat surprise me – and probably Hank as well – that Becky never confided in Joyce.
Given Becky seems to have had complicated feelings about Bonnie’s death (per her talk with Amber post-Blaine’s death, which seems way too soon to have been about Ross,) and also puts Joyce on a bit of a pedestal, I wonder if she didn’t want Joyce to judge her for thinking Bad Things about her dead mom.
I could also see Ross telling her to keep it secret, so as not to soil Bonnie’s memory when it was Satan’s fault, and Hank somehow pieced it together himself, but his shock at Joyce not knowing suggests to me it was at least somewhat known.
Ross said ‘last year’ too when he came to town looking for her the first time.
If that’s the sort of thing the Book of Faces does, that’s just one more reason why I’m glad I’ve ignored it as long as I have.
He didn’t run away screaming, literally or metaphorically, Joyce. That’s a good sign. It looks like he’s taking this seriously and that your happiness is more important to him than how uncomfortable the emotional context of this is making him.
Hmm, am I the only one who thought the last panel was referring to the fact that it was actually Joe, not Joyce, who needlessly reminded Becky of what day it was today? Maybe not, but Joe might suddenly be feeling a little guilty about invading Becky’s class today.
I don’t think that’s crossed his mind, though it’s not impossible. I figure he more just knows he puts his foot in his mouth sometimes, especially when it comes to sensitive topics.
If thats the case then Joe really did help because Becky now knows that Joyce knows and Becky also knows that Joyce cares (by looking sad) and Becky will also be prepared for whatever Joyce comes up with
Joe inadvertently did good
This.
I’m interpreting it as Joe warning Joyce that *he’s* probably gonna say some tone deaf things coming up. Hence “prepare yourself”.
Well I guess I was wrong. Thanks for the responses though.
Oh, boy, everthing returns…
I hope Joyce weren’t so awlful like her did when Rich Mullins passed away.
(I don’t know what she said to Beacky in her dream, anyway).
I think it was Joyce in her dream remembering what she said to Becky in reality. And from her reaction, she remembers exactly what she said. Which means that Willis had this moment in mind, or something like it, way back when he drew the Rich Mullins strips.
Plans ahead our
WillisAnKin does.What specifically part are you talking about: that about Joyce hearing she can’t hear God’s voice?
When Mullins asks what she said to Becky, she gets a bad reaction face, which suggests she remembers what she did say to Becky and that she now realizes how bad it was.
First time in several years I went back to reread that Mullins strip.
Never noticed Joyce’s wardrobe changed in the last two frames.
Joyce’s wardrobe changes every few panels throughout that dream.
There’s something incredibly sweet in the way Joyce and Joe are watching each other in the last panel ♡. Besides that, I dunno why.., but I thought Becky’s mother death was happened at least three years before now.
Shes done that a couple of times with Joe recently, the head down and eyes up thing, and you’d have to have a heart of stone not to be moved by it
Joe certainly doesn’t have a heart of stone
🙁
Maybe don’t bring it up at all, unless Becky brings it up herself?
Kinda harder than it seems when you consider that Bonnie was part of Joyce’s extended family in many ways and she may need comfort as much as she wonders if Becky does.
I think the cleanest solution for everyone is if Joyce and Becky simultaneously and independently decide to frog-march into the hall, stand directly face-to-face, 120 inches apart, wait 3 seconds, and just silently duke it out in a vicious fisticuffs the likes of which this campus has never seen.
“you makeing it look like you’re avoiding her is way worse” — Joe, probably
The problem with the title suggestion in the alt text is that anyone who has made it to book 11 doesn’t need the warning anymore.
Does this mean the last book we were supposed to prepare for some ToeDeath things?
Been a tough year for Becky. Losing her mom in a traumatic way. Leaving home for college. The disaster at her Christian college. Fleeing for her life from her dad. Homelessness. Kidnapping at gun point. Chase and crash. A minute of happiness. Then another kidnapping. All her friends threatened with death. Another traumatic death of a parent. Becky is the main character and she’s not in the strip.
Just give her a hug Joyce. She doesn’t need to be alone.
That’s pretty much my take. Don’t start by saying anything. Just give her a big hug, preferably when you’re alone. Let her decide if she wants to talk about it or not.
What? I thought Becky’s mom died when she was a kid?
Nope! The adults in Joyce’s and Becky’s lives actively failed Becky by keeping Joyce in the dark to needlessly protect her or something, thus limiting Becky’s ability to talk openly about it with her best friend! (We could tell from the ghosts strip that Becky was at least a young teen when it happened – she’s near her adult height and has visible boobs – but I can see the ‘cancer’ cover story making people think they were much younger because it’s way more defensible with kids than a near-adult.)
I’m genuinely shocked that Becky’s mom’s death happened last spring. That seems so… quick for everything. Also it feels incredibly irresponsible of the Browns to lie to a 17 almost 18 year old Joyce about her best friend’s mother’s cause of death. It seemed more plausible (even if distasteful) when I thought it was a 13-15 year old they were lying to.
It’s also astounding how quickly Becky’s dad spiraled. I thought he was a guy slowly radicalized after years of grief, not someone who went from regular evangelical to “planning to shoot his daughter to save her from sin” in months.
My guess is there faith bullshit led them to believe that suicide is shameful and sinful, and that it shouldn’t even be spoken of or acknowledged, especially towards IMPRESSIONABLE minds like Joyce’s.
You’re making the assumption that he spiraled and that Bonnie’s death was the start of it.
She may well have been a moderating force on him, but it seems likely he was always basically that bad. It’s just that it wasn’t until his daughter was in full rebellion that he felt he had to go to those extremes. He would have earlier, but she still seemed under proper control.
It’s long been speculated that his behavior at least contributed to whatever led to Bonnie’s suicide.
I think it’s absolutely, abundantly clear that the crux of Toedad’s character is that he valued his perfect suburban home life for Jesus when it came down to it, but I don’t think we’ve ever seen the full minutiae of his life.
It’s all up in the air because we don’t know anything what their homelife was like. The closest we’ve got was a flashback strip where he tells Becky she’s not allowed to win a Frozen doll at a carnival because “it encourages children to disobey their parents” (which is something Joyce also was forbidden from doing by her folks), and a Patreon bonus strip where he and Becky are in their kitchen transparently emotionally devastated. Plus, while the Toedad Redemption Arc was never on the table the whole second go-around at kidnapping and threatening murder has him speak and hold himself a lot more differently than the raging, uncontrollable gunman he was the first time it happened.
I absolutely think he contributed but I think those contributions were more “don’t worry, honey, Jesus will sort it out instead of those godless psychiatrists.”
We do have a couple points indicating Ross was actively controlling, of Becky at least – she didn’t have a cell phone before stealing Robin’s because he wouldn’t let her (as a college freshman, that’s a dang unusual restriction, but a cell phone is both a source of independent socialization and internet access he can’t easily supervise,) and she had to ‘accidentally’ get glue in her hair to be allowed to cut it even as short as Joyce’s, because it was ‘her femininity’ and had to be protected – and note that Bonnie has always been shown with very long hair herself, compared to Joyce’s and Carol’s. There was also some hinting that Becky knew how to sneak in and out of her own home – they only ran into a problem because her bedroom window was locked. Hank, who was formerly a Good Christian Congregation Member but who did have limits pre-Family Weekend (given his dig at Southern Baptists being TOO extreme back when Joyce remembers moving churches as a kid), also didn’t seem to like Ross so much as tolerate him because Joyce loved Becky. So I think he was definitely farther fringe than the Browns were, at least farther than Hank, and maybe a bit more than the congregation on average. He was definitely a controlling parent, and almost certainly religiously abusive the same way Carol was – Willis describes it as a cult, after all, and Ross was a true believer – but Becky also clearly had some affection for and good memories of him, as well. I suspect it was on the whole similar for Bonnie as his wife. Not a good husband because of the controlling, but not as transparently evil as Blaine, I don’t think.
My suspicion is honestly that Ross factored into Bonnie’s depression as much about what he represented as what he actively did.* The ‘I’m gonna be a fucking scientist’ strip sums up the life Becky and Joyce, and by extension Bonnie, were allowed – find a good Christian man, marry him and have his children, raise and educate them properly, only enough education yourself to teach them. I imagine Bonnie had a similar upbringing to them, and found it as stifling as Becky did intellectually. But Bonnie never broke out, and eventually that crushed her. If that’s the case, her husband could’ve been more like Hank and she’d still be deeply depressed, because even Hank enforced those strict gender roles on his kids (trying to push Jocelyne to be properly gender-conforming, Joyce only allowing herself the wife and mother and homeschool education track – Carol may have had the bigger hand there, but even if so Hank definitely still allowed it enough Jocelyne was surprised to hear he sided with Becky,) and probably wouldn’t have thought differently about his wife until actively confronted with her saying ‘I need this.’ Which would probably have required a shitload of therapy.
* Though obviously, given Ross enforced the rules for Becky, he probably also enforced them for Bonnie, which is an active action of his. But if she was raised in the same sort of faith, it may never have occurred to her she could want more, the same way Joyce has to take a minute and Dorothy’s prompting during the Gender Studies marriage exercise to allow herself to think ‘fighter pilot.’
* I also wouldn’t rule out Ross being physically abusive, though, given Becky’s noticeable non-reaction when he slaps her during the car chase – she’s never even brought it up since, IIRC – and the sheer number of red flags during that scene beyond ‘escalated to kidnapping at gunpoint.’ But that’s entirely speculative on my part, not anything we have active textual evidence for – since Becky had 911 on the line and he saw the phone immediately after the slap, she may simply not have had time to process it. Still, it’s worth mentioning.
Well yeah I think all of what you listed happened, though admittedly I didn’t think of the implications in those strips about Becky you mentioned wrt her haircut and the phone.
Like, Becky’s upbringing was abusive and controlling no matter how you slice it, I really only think it’s vague on whether he was Blaine or Hank and Carol on overdrive. Like, Blaine absolutely knows what he was doing, he knows people around him would revolt if they saw how he treated his wife and daughter, whereas I think with Toedad he’d say thing he believed were sensible, and didn’t really think about how anyone outside his bubble would consider that.
Given that we’re, presumably, going to talk about Bonnie this storyline, I imagine we’re going to get some more understanding on Becky’s homelife, but yeah I do think Bonnie’s story is “what would have happened to Joyce and Becky if they went too deep and couldn’t get out.”
They’re both relatively minor points that haven’t come up in some time – I’m pretty sure Becky did get a pay-as-you-go phone while she was still living with Leslie rather than stealing Robin’s permanently, and I think the glue bit only came up during the visit home, plus by now it’s weird to see her hair as long as it was at the start of the strip – so they’re easy to miss or forget the implications of.
I agree on both points. Ross definitely strikes me as someone who genuinely believed God was on his side and didn’t care what other people thought of it, because anyone who judged him was godless and hellbound. Blaine knew how he looked to outsiders, and even if he convinced himself that it was TOTALLY about the money, or that it was CLEARLY impossible for Faz to be his biological son (and by now I think the implication’s clear that he is,) he recognized he should hide his actions from them. Right up until he’d impulsively lash out, anyway.
They’re very different types. Ross was almost certainly less deliberately cruel, but I’m not sure how much better he would have been to live with.
Becky certainly has all the emotional armor that comes of having survived an abusive childhood. That’s deep rooted, not just since she came out, or even since Bonnie’s death. All the coping mechanisms she has and Joyce completely lacks.
After reading comments, I wonder if lunch for Becky and Dina ran late because they were talking about her mom. It also makes much more sense that Becky empathize “today” when Joe told her about sad looks.
I also didn’t realize how recently Becky’s mom died. It makes sense that ToeDad was still so… reactive to Becky acting against his wishes. It in no way excuses his actions, but it does recontextualize it a little for me. I thought he’d had a couple of years to grieve and process his wife’s suicide, but he was still very much reeling. It makes sense that he’d want to try to control his daughter and make her into the perfect version of his dead wife. (Obviously, ‘makes sense’ and ‘this is the right and helpful thing to do’ are very much at odds here.)
But jeeeeze. That means Becky lost both parents within a year, and I can’t even imagine how she’s dealing, especially with how traumatic both deaths were. I guess Joyce is dealing with second-hand trauma here on Becky’s behalf, as well as her own trauma both old and new. These gals really need each other right now. I hope that Joe can give Joyce the nudge she needs to just talk to her best friend right now.
“i care about you. im an idiot, but i care about you
Joe has become surprisingly self-aware. Despite the fact that he’s still a d-bag horn dog, he’s probably had the most character growth oraode of maybe Joyce.
“Prepare yourself…” is the best DoA Book title ever.