I also wear glasses, since I was 3 because I was born legally blind. It doesn’t bother me since it’s a running joke but there has been an noticeable increase in animosity toward the glasses wearing experience since Joyce got them.
It’s more about Joyce’s feeling about wearing glasses than the glasses. Joyce is very “particular” and doesn’t like change. She also hates when food on her plate touches but it’s not like the comic itself hates the concept of the Everything Burrito.
You sure about that? This comic has been very blatantly pro taco in the past which doesn’t necessarily mean it’s ant-burrito but it doesn’t not mean that either. And that Joyce rant a few strips back isn’t helping, neither is the fact she has yet to deliver Sarah her burrito which means it’s probably gotten cold now which is not a pro-burrito move.
Disagree, there’s no substitute for a street taco with charred asada or pastor on fresh corn tortillas with just a bit of cilantro and onion, covered in hot sauce of your choice
I’m also a glasses wearer and don’t see it, but I should note that the author *also* wears glasses, and most (all?) of the characters in this story share a part of his psyche, so there might be a part of him that hates them. I mean, I don’t *love* wearing them, and certainly wish at times that I didn’t, but… *shrug* not sure where I was going with this.
I’ve worn glasses since I was 3, so I’m used to them being part of my face at this point, but that also means I’m more than aware of some annoying things about wearing them. Like how smudges seem to appear on the lenses at random, and how I apparently can’t wear a face mask without fogging up my glasses.
You must have missed all the times through the history of Willis’s comics where he has let us know that he likes LIKES glasses on girls.
Also, the times where Willis has mentioned that Joyce is basically an autobiographical character and we know he’s worn glasses for a long time. I.e. we’re most likely seeing the insecurity he experienced when he first started wearing glasses.
Idk my glasses-wearing face read it the same way as people who hate having a big butt, even though there’s a whole song everyone loves that glorifies the biggest of butts
That is, this is Joyce’s anxiety, not a blanket attack on glasses
Me too. Someone please let Joe know he’s allowed to have feelings.
Actually also include letting him know that he’s not the poison seed he thinks he is and that he’s actually capable of changing and bexoming a good person.
…Man of all the characters to get a redenption arv that I’d be very imvested in I never thought it’d be Joe.
Is it that walking away from a serious conversation to have casual sex with Malaya actually hurt Joyce’s feelings? Or that Joyce looks cute in her glasses?
It’s so cute I am so surprised by how much I’m liking Joe and Joyce’s developing relationship and friendship and how nice it is to see Joe care about her even if he’s still bad at showing it
It’s an interesting dance the two are doing here. Like, I don’t think Joyce believes it’s as simple as that, but for a number of reasons, getting vulnerable with people isn’t easy for her right now, anymore than it is for Joe to be genuine here.
I’m still kind of lukewarm on the JoJo ship to be honest. I mean more power to them if they start smooching and the people who enjoy that, but Josephthan’s just not there for me personality wise.
I’m making a legal call that mutual nudity counts as matching clothes. Therefore, Jennifer and Ruth, Walky and Dorothy, Dorothy and Danny, Danny and Amber, Joe and Roz, Joe and Malaya, Mike and Ethan, and also probably Sierra, Grace, and Mandy have all worn matching clothes. See, I’m thinking circles around everyone else because y’all were probably trying to remember actual articles of clothing.
I have been reading this comic for a good while now and in the past few days I have decided to re-read the whole thing from start to end. Because of this, I have some criticism of the way the comic has been going lately:
1 – Booster as they currently exist are nothing more but a rather annoying Psychoanalyst and plot device, speaking only in pseudo-Clinical terms. Having a character that understands the characters inner troubles and issues better then the characters themselves can be good, this was done well with Mike (who used this info to fuck with people) but if done poorly, like with Booster you just get a way for the writer of the comic to copy-paste their character plot synopsis directly into the comic rather than doing the work to actually show it. I would probably believe you if you told me that Booster had been created solely to have someone point-blank explain what had happened with the characters psychologically during the time skip and where we are in this new paradigm. Booster may become a good character later down the line, in comparative terms they have been in the comic for a very short amount of time, but as it stands their psychoanalysis comes off as smug and annoying and rather “above it all”. Perhaps this will be limited to setting up the premises of the post-timeskip world. I sure hope so!
2 – The depiction of religion has gradually shifted from being believable and somewhat balanced to being rather spiteful. I think this got particular bad after the Jacob stuff although you can see it early on too, for instance with the Hymmel the Humming Hymnal containing quite a few laughable lines (“All the good things we do are god workin’ through us!”). I am not a Christian and I don’t particularly mind reading a comic with a more satirical anti-religious slant, but what I don’t enjoy reading is spite and that is what the comics depiction of religion has grown into. I almost feel as if the author may have too much skin in the game on this one, to the point that plausibility and storytelling have suffered. It seems that nothing bad can happen without religion being at least partially to blame and Joyce’s church have gotten to the point of conspiring with mobsters to pay the bail of a man who brought a rifle to a university and kidnapped his daughter. Joyce’s character has been the the most affected by this.
Smaller complaints:
– The comic has come close to jumping the shark with the entirety of the mobster/christian kidnapping arc which came off as implausible. Literally all the bad guys in the universe, from Amber’s dad to Becky’s dad to the weirdly devoted friends of some random rapist all got to together for one big plot. Why were Ryan’s friends even there? Did Amber’s dad just have them at hand? The time-skip also doesn’t help, what with skipping the immediate after-effects of such a momentous event. We don’t get to see how the new paradigm emerged and it thus feels forced. We move on to quick. Feels unsatisfying.
– Becky, personality wise, has been obviously flanderized becoming more one note as time goes on, to an extent that despite the death of her father and all the insanity of that entire arc her current personality is more or less just an exaggerated version of how she was immediately after coming out as a lesbian. This exaggeration can even be seen visually with the increasingly ridiculous looking hair (if you have to draw half the characters face on top of their bangs then the hair is too long, LOL).
– Ruth and Billie’s relationship repeats the same two or three beats in an infinite loop and its getting old. The most recent repetition is more or less justified by Ruth and Billie’s fairly believable regression but that doesn’t make it fun to read.
– All attempts to make Carla and Malaya, two annoying characters interesting or worth reading about have been too half-hearted to do much and yet.
That’s all I have to say. I hope the comic resolves some of these as it goes forward. I still find it a much more put together experience than damn near anything else in the webcomic world but its got some problems lately.
I don’t think this comic’s representation of Evangelical Christianity is unfair? All it’s criticisms are grounded in real things that really happened. Even the part about throwing their money behind a mob stooge, Evangelicals sent one of those dudes to the fucking White House.
Yeah it’s not a kind portrayal, but that’s not really avoidable here. The observable reality of Evangelical Christianity is just not kind, and if you are making a comic about them even remotely based in reality they will not come off well.
I’ve seen the Psalty videos Hymmel is almost certainly based on. Hymmel is only slightly exaggerated, mostly to make the weird messages more obvious in a panel or two instead of taking a few minutes.
I was about to say “Oh no, Hymnal thing is real” as well..as a Fundie kid that grew up in an identical church to Joyce’s….that was a very real thing and it’s a very real take on Evangelical Christianity to an UNCOMFY degree…
Just so you’re aware “All the good things we do are god workin’ through us!” is basically verbatim what I got from church growing up, not some spiteful aberration.
For the rest of your points, sure. But religion can be pretty bonkers at times.
When you try to communicate about what’s wrong with it with fellow group members, you can’t do it without having your words magically twisted into: “I’m crazy, evil, and weak”.
On the flip side, when you try to tell your story to people outside the group as a cautionary tale, you can’t do so without having your words magically transformed into: “I’m a liar” or “I’m gullible, assanine and spineless”.
Before long, you find yourself in a nowhere land of the unheard.
Which is probably part of the power of groups like that (not just cults, but abusive groups in general). If you can’t find support outside it due to being labelled some form of liar or other… it’s that bit harder to step away.
I’m sorry you have to deal with that, Willis. Some people are lucky enough to have never seen these kinds of things in the real world, so to them it seems too bananas to be real. But bananas are real. And delicious. …wait
It really is amazing… in a world where people shoot abortion doctors, subject their own children to religious-based “conversion therapy”, forgo medical treatments in lieu of prayer, fail to seek help when their son molests their daughters (see: Josh Duggar), and continue donating to televangelists like Peter Popoff (despite his past scandals), you would think that people would understand: religious extremists exist, and they can do some pretty dumb things. I recognize that you may use various plot devices that are rather drastic in order to advance story lines, but the attitudes and actions of people like Ross, Carol and pre-atheist Joyce are pretty understandable when compared to certain real-life evangelicals.
It may not be every Christian who has gone off the deep end, but its not an insignificant number either.
You missed the bit with they then expect the daughters to forgive the son and carry on as normal, don’t see why the son can’t be considered a responsible, trusted member of society, etc… Would also not be shocked, from what I’ve heard about fundie communities, if the sisters weren’t expected to forgive him because clearly as small children they seduced him, it’s all their fault, and they should be ashamed of themselves for being temptresses, impure, and daring to risk damaging his reputation with their foul ways, do not give access to dissenting views/non-religious forms of therapy, do not give any outlet for expressing pain/confusion/grief, possibly do apologise to your future husband, your pastor, and probably your male relatives for not keeping themselves pure…
Religion is not necessarily a bad thing – it gives a lot of people comfort and strength, it can help build and strengthen communities, help provide an agreed-upon moral code… However, it can also be cult-like, be used to justify and codify a whole host of bigotry, has been used to justify a fair few wars and genocidal campaigns over the years…
I think the range is represented pretty well, from Mary (embracing the worst of the fundie-hate outlook), to Joyce and Becky (moving away from their fundie teachings and finding new ways, with or without necessarily retaining a core belief in a divine being, including Joyce’s pain over the loss of the certainty, joy and comfort that gave her), to e.g. Sierra/whatsit Joyce crushed hard on (strong core belief including weekly church attendance, but while their faith is part of who they are, it’s not their largest shaping force), to Joe and Billie’s “I identify as ______ and maybe attend services for the big religious holidays, enjoy the festivals, etc, but don’t really think of religion much in my day to day life”, to Dorothy’s consciously chosen atheism with no conflict between that and being a strongly moral, good person…
I grew up in a religion considered to be cult-ish that's not even nearly as horrifying as yours and I know this stuff is real. Hell, I live right by the "Baptist World Church" that gained notoriety for saying Obama and gay people should be executed.
If it makes you feel better I also like Booster a lot and Carla is my fave right behind Sarah
Eh. You may be right. It came off to me as a rather cynical and uncharitable distillation of some Christian doctrine, similar to how a Christian might say that an Atheist can have no objective basis for morality. Perhaps that’s true in a sense but its not a very fair charecterization and it stinks, to me at least, of a kind of bad faith. I understand where you are coming from though.
Telling an ex evangelixal that their lived experience is a “bad faith” reading of religion as anwhole especially when they have included several incredibly reasonable religious ajd christian characters in their story is a *really* dick move, man.
If we’re going to get into the whole standpoint thing here then I think it could be said that at least sometimes having an immediate personal involvement can compromise your view rather than give you special authority. If you had a really bad breakup with a Girl I wouldn’t be coming to you first for information on how she behaves because I understand you have a kind of grudge. That doesn’t mean everything you say is wrong or stupid or you can’t be trusted at all, but I think in this story, there definitely is a kind of authorial grudge against religion. That is perfectly fine in my eyes and its valid view and attitude to have, I’m sure the grudge is held for justifiable reasons, but it gets somewhat annoying when it compromises the story or creates caricatures in place of believable charecters. I think it sometimes does. It might be kind of a dick move to point it, but where it effects the story, I think it reasonable to do so.
As for the sane Christians, they’ve been more or less all but gone (excepting Becky) since the end of the Jacob stuff. Joyce’s charecter progression in that time has always been becoming more unsure of her faith.
like a bad breakup with a girl????? man i can’t believe i approved your first comment tonight just for you to be a shitfuck to me, what the actual fuck
Dude, by the logic you’re using a Jewish Holocaust survivor would have a “compromised view” of the Holocaust and its horrors and thus a questionable authority. Or that black scholars/historians have a “compromised view” of slavery or the civil rights movement or contemporary BLM activism.
I hope you can see the logical fallacy you’re making in your comparison.
Conflating a survivor of a traumatic situation to the potential bias people can manifest from living an average is not the good analogy you seem to think it is.
Actually, there are several ‘sane’ Christians still in the strip apart from Becky. We also have Lucy, Sierra, and Agatha. All of them have been seen since the start of the current school term. (And we may still see Jacob again.)
And those are just the ones we know have attended church… Its possible that there are others that may believe in god, but either haven’t been to church, or have but it hasn’t been part of any strip. For example, I remember an early strip where Danny is talking to his parents on the phone and they ask him if he’s been to Church yet.
Yeah, Danny’s a Christian, but he doesn’t really go to church, or if he does, not often. He has still cited things like when Amber got mad and flipped a table, he pointed out Jesus did the same thing in righteous indignation, and that she ought to cut herself some slack.
I forget if we’ve ever seen Sal’s faith. I think Billie/Jennifer has been sorta-Christian but not really putting a lot of thought into it, and Walky’s seemingly agnostic or atheist given a lot of his flippant jokes, though given his parents putting him in the Hymnal production, I assume his parents are Christians.
I think Joyce woke her up for church the first Sunday and Billie basically said “Of course I’m Christian. What’s that got to do with Sundays? They. Are. For. Sleeping”
Amber and AG are at least raised Catholic, as well, though whether or not they practice is unknown (and possibly tied into Blaineness – ‘what god would let HIM exist’ is a question I can see a young AmbG asking. Especially if Blaine’s done the I Am A Good Christian Businessman act before, which is purely speculative but would make sense.)
Becky’s one of the only still-religious characters whose plotline is ABOUT religion, sure, but that’s in large part because Willis is writing this as an exvangelical whose experience with religion was a cult. Kinda reflects the stories about religious characters they have to tell, y’know?
We’ve been through this circular logic before. “All the Christians are bigots!” “What about X?” “They’re not a real Christian, they’re not bigoted enough.”
Okay usually i try to keep civil in the comments but in this specific case i don’t think Willis will mind if i tell you to shut the fuck up because what you’re doing? Telling a victim that their portrayal of their own lived experiences is bitter and “in bad faith”? That they are too close to the issue and “have a compromised view” of their own experiences and trauma????? That is fucking morally repugnant and you should be ashamed. Fuck off.
Dude, Evangelical Christianity (the kind both Willis and I grew up in) is a fucking doomsday cult. The only requirement for a “fair” characterization is an honest one and dressing it up like you’re suggesting would be the direct opposite of that.
How the heck is it uncharitable when the author is literally saying the worst aspect are semi-autobiographical? The comic isn’t some thesis statement on all of Christianity, it’s focus though is on a main character who was literally raised in a community of some of the worst cult-ish types of Christians possible, because that’s the type of life the author grew up in. If it doesn’t seem “fair” to you, imagine what the life of author felt like to them.
And the comic has tons of Christian characters who aren’t cultish/shitheads, in fact the majority of the cast are probably secular Christians. And since they aren’t shitty about their religion, their issues and arcs aren’t going to be about their faith.
To anyone reading this who still thinks Willis’s comic’s depiction of fundamentalist Christians is fucked up, you have obviously never played The Binding of Isaac.
I’m just confused about people doubting it – I mean, I always thought Christian fundamentalists’ shittiness has been thoroughly documented over the decades.
You re-read the whole comic?! That’s really impressive actually.
I do feel the need to address the complaint about religion or more specifically the plot involving two evil dad working together with a bunch of goons who really loved a rapist to take down one girl/vigilante which is a ridiculous story but I feel like people forget this comic is very ridiculous most of the time. It skirts a line between realism and over the top comic book logic. Amber survived crashing full force into a car once, and we just saw Dina attacking people like a dinosaur.
So yeah the idea that a church group would get manipulated into working with a mobster to kidnap and endanger their own children because they were really ride or die for one of their own congregation that threatened some of the member’s own children at gunpoint is really stupid and nonsensical but that’s the fun of the comic sometimes.
Like, yeah. It’s kinda silly, but even ignoring the fact that this is a universe operating on golden age superhero costume rules where a shitty cloth eyemask and slightly mussed up hair render you completely unidentifiable —
Yknow the thing with evangelical christians is they are also often really far right politically in other ways, such as loving the NRA, racism, Donald Trump, yada yada, and several of these churches are founded by hucksters taking advantage of the crazy and or vulnerable so the whole “getting manipulated into working with the mob” isn’t even *that* wacky.
The fact that Joyce’s mother defended it kind of was the tipping point for me that made me roll my eyes. Lady, he tied up your daughter and threw her in the back of a van with a mobster weilding a ball peen hammer and a bunch of freinds of the guy who tried to roofy her. Are you a human being or some kind of evil spirit?
I saw an article recently about a Parkland survivor talking about how his dad is so deep into QAnon shit that he thinks his own son is lying and that it was all paid actors.
Deliberate misinformation to form cults is a helluva drug.
Ironically, both the Parkland dad and Joyce’s mom at that point were likely experiencing some of the most violent cognitive dissonance imaginable. If they reject the justifications for such atrocities against their children, they’re out. All the time, money, emotion, ego and effort they’ve invested into the group for years or even decades would go to waste. They’d also loose all their friends and family who are also group members. But under all that, they hold another idea that will lock them and countless others in manipulative groups, hemorrhaging away their time, emotion and money for years to come:
“I could NEVER be manipulated,” they think to themselves.
To them, the only ones who fall for woos and cons are gullible, young, stupid. And naturally, they don’t think that of themselves. But nevertheless, they WERE manipulated. Regardless of any personal deficiency or lack of intellect, it all comes down to the fact that they, like all other humans, possess a brain that’s evolved not to strive towards truth, but towards internal consistency.
Man back in 2012 there was a mom from the fundie group here in town that actively killed her son because she was convinced the rapture was coming and wanted to make sure he made it.
After this many times trying to predict Armageddon and the horribly ugly mess that always creates, it should be the time people wake up and realize they’ve been taken over by something extremely malignant.
But the pattern persists, not just in Christianity, nor even exclusively within religion. ANY group that makes a business of predicting the end of the world will inevitably become practiced in deceit, distortion, cover-up and denia techniques that they have to deploy when their prophecies fail — and they ALWAYS fail.
Oooh yeah, my church preached eeevery doomsday event, I’d always go to sleep terrified of the rapture and me not being without sin enough to go to Heaven, it was an absolute nightmare…x.x
It was “Penticostal” and they would always say “WELL No man truly knows the day or the hour, but it’s coming, so you have to always be ready, Jesus is coming!” Keeping the congrigation in a perpetual state of being ready, and thus being more willing to pour their funds into the offering baskets of the church….
As time went on, service became more and more about giving money to the church…
The Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves have tried and failed predicting the end of the world EIGHT TIMES in the last century. When their predictions fail, out of all things they blame their MEMBERS for believing in them! They basically THRIVE on convicting members that they are living in the end times, so no surprise there.
Oh man, that shit happened all the time. Like “oh, maybe Church member was just struggling with demons, can we really blame him?” Like he just hospitalized his wife by beating her, I think we can safely condemn him. But he goes to church AND he’s sorry, and Jesus forgives.
Oh so Jesus forgives those gay people who, say, never beat and hospitalized a woman?
My mom, when I was about 5, became convinced through church-supported delusions that my dad was sexually molesting my siblings and I (he was not), and after two years of soul-searching, got a restraining order. Once, during supervised visitation, I said no to my dad about something or other. My mom, who was AT THAT VERY MOMENT ACCUSING HIM OF MOLESTING US, which she 100% believed he had been doing, told me it was a sin to talk back to your parents/adults and that I should never, ever contradict him like that again.
It is absolutely, completely, and utterly believable that if someone had kidnapped me as a young adult at gunpoint in order to recapture their queer daughter, she would have defended that person.
Every time someone shows up on here to tell David Willis that he’s wrong about his own fucking lived experiences with Christianity, lived experiences that I gotta be honest look a WHOLE LOT like mine, my siblings’, and several of my friends’, I have to spend the rest of the afternoon calming down somehow or other.
Why is it SO hard for you to believe that there is a radical, dangerous, deeply authoritarian sect of Christianity? Why does it seem SO unrealistic that individuals in that sect do shit like this?
Nah, Willis should further the anti-religious slant. If someone has ever found religion and did not actively make the world a worse place for it, I’d like to meet them.
Wittgenstein? I liked what he said about God in the Tractatus and his WW1 notebooks and he did not seem to be a horrible person biographically speaking.
Like, I wanna object with some idea that you’re goin’ a little too hard on the religion angle, but… I mean, there’s literally no good deed you can do that’s made lesser just because you didn’t do it with a religious paintjob. That paint might offer some additional comfort to someone who’s already in your religion, but that’s totally subjective and personal. I dunno, is that a coherent thought? Not trying to step on any toes here.
“God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion.”
Now as an atheist this is both an affront and yet also reassuring/compelling. I don’t credit a sky god with my volition to be kind, but I appreciate that at least some religious people can understand that you don’t need faith to be moral. It still sucks that they figure it’s cuz their god made me that way, but they have their head wrapped in freewill and an omnipotent god not being a contradiction.
Well, I don’t think I make the world a worse place. YMMV, I guess, but I don’t believe I do most of the things a regular reader of this comic would usually consider “making the world a worse place”. At any rate, I aim not to.
Aside from the larger discussion at hand, about which I’m siding with the majority here to say that yeah, religion is a cult and gaslighting is awful, I would like to get praise that there is a distinction between “finding religion” and “embracing organized religion”. My polytheism probably saved my life after the trauma leftover from being raised Christian. As a personal thing, it harms no one. But organized religion, on the other hand, as a cult and a tool for brainwashing and gaslighting, can be terrifying.
I have to ask, who is your audience in writing all that? Some of your points have a bit of resonance for me, but your point on Carla and Malaya really brings home to me that you don’t understand the diversity of views that audience members have regarding the cast. I love them both, and I’m fairly confident in saying that your take on Carla is not widely held and your take on Malaya is.
I pretty much agree with everything you’ve posted, mostly about the kidnapping arc and the one-note Becky
I don’t agree with 2 (except where it coincides with kidnapping arc) because it seems to me that sort of church thing is probably from the author’s own experiences
I agree with the part about jumping the shark with the whole mobster kidnapping plot with every bad person ever being involved. Sorry Willis, it’s just stretches belief on every level and it kills the gravitas of previous storylines.
It used to be that the most dramatic and heart-rending thing to happen was that Becky got kidnapped at gunpoint in broad daylight. Then we had a possible serial rapist Ryan come to a dorm room specifically to threaten women with a knife. Those two events were plausible and they carried a lot of weight. People in the comments talked about similar life experiences, people that were affected by homophobia, family abuse and forced conversion therapy; and by violent misogyny that’s often fueled by PUA culture.
But having six (six!!) students kidnapped in a completely bizarre plot cooked up by a mafia stooge to get at a masked vigilante doesn’t feel grounded in reality, it feels like a B-plot from some cop show. It really really didn’t help that the storyline hinged on Blaine, previously established as good manipulator, acting like an unhinged lunatic; and Ross, whose established character is that of a self-appointed moral crusader, acting like a complete moron going along with a plan he never understood.
I seem to recall someone saying that the reason Ross was killed off as a character was so he would not be a negative shadow hanging over Becky’s life. I don’t know if that was a fan theory or from Willis itself.
But here’s the thing: Ross was going to be in jail for YEARS, by the time he got out, Becky would have moved on with her life, and she would have taken steps to be beyond his reach.
I’d agree it’s hard and not fun writing about an adult character who despite going no-contact (possibly with a restraining order) with their abusive parent, still fears that one day this person will show up at their doorstep to make their life shit all over again.
This could be something incredible if written right, but I can’t fault any author for avoiding something so emotionally charged, especially if it’s based off the author’s own experiences.
But killing off the abusive parent character instead of dealing feels like a lazy cop-out. This comic is over a DECADE old and we’re still not done with a full school year. It’s entirely possible that this comic would come to its natural conclusion in another ten years and Becky would still be in her second year of university. Dealing with the possibility of her abusive parent coming back into her life could be just some far off future thing that doesn’t have to be dealt in the comic. Why kill off Ross?
“I’m going to be a fuckin’ scientist.” while giving her father the double birds was such a banger line. It was the perfect way for Becky to exit her horrible father’s life.
1) Ross would still have had a trial, requiring the cast’s presence and probably more interviews and the like. This could have been glossed over, but for
2) The fact that Ross almost certainly died as an outlet to process Willis’s complicated emotions about his mother’s death, which occurred not too long before that storyline was plotted out. At the end of the first Ross storyline, when Carol calls Joyce and echoes Ross’s rhetoric, Willis wrote a blog post about being semi-estranged from his mother under similar circumstances. Unfortunately, feelings about parents are rarely simple, especially when death is in play. Even when, like Ross, they’re abusive. (I had a biological grandfather I called ‘the familial Blaine’ around here. He died last year. I had no relationship to him because my parent recognized he shouldn’t be around children. My parent still grieved his death, and was sad that the pandemic meant the choice they’d been dreading for YEARS about attending his funeral had been taken from them.) That role wouldn’t work with Blaine, who DEFINITELY needed to die narratively (since the mob meant jail wasn’t a guarantee) but who AmbG had shown no affection towards whatsoever. Becky and Joyce, however, DID have good times with Ross, even though they were messy and tainted by what they knew now. That made him a much better candidate, especially since he was already in Blaine’s sights. I alluded to this in my other reply, but really, this is why Ross specifically had to die. The double birds were perfect! But even when you know it was a good idea to never talk to your terrible parent again, their death has a way of bringing up all the messy feelings you took to a therapist to hold firm in that decision.
Thank you for this reply because a lot of this makes more sense now. I had not considered Ross’ death to be a way Willis to process some of his own complicated emotions about his parents.
That said, I still don’t like the mob kidnapping storyline for the reasons mentioned above: it feels completely unbelievable and detached from reality in a way that cheapens the previous dramatic moments that worked incredibly well. It’s hard to read Becky’s kidnapping at gunpoint arc and take it seriously because now I know that Ross later dies getting his face smashed in by hammer during an incredibly convoluted and nonsense plan to lure out Amazigirl.
If fans are allowed to make suggestions, I would have proposed that Ross dies from getting sick in prison and not getting proper healthcare. That’s anticlimactic for someone who loomed so large in Becky’s life and it would be entirely on purpose: Ross is not defeated in a huge fight or a big final showdown, but rather by a bacteria and the apathy of the carceral system.
Heck, it could even tie to Becky’s new political career, since it would give her awareness of how godawful the prison industrial complex is.
I went into my defense of the kidnapping below, but let’s just say I disagree. (Also I’m pretty sure Blaine had already started bailing Ross out before Ross dying served a writerly purpose. The Blaine showdown was inevitable – he was continuing to escalate, AmbG’s not sharing memories was guaranteed to be a plot point for catastrophe and Amber’s self-loathing was getting worse and worse, and AG being a literal superhero meant she was allowed a literal supervillain to facilitate those plotlines resolving. Ross got roped into it to give it extra stakes, especially since the previous time we saw Blaine vs AmbG he wasn’t exactly competent or a match for his daughter.)
Blaine’s first onscreen actions were menacing Amber in front of witnesses until she punched him (and Dina’s parents realized within about two minutes of interacting that letting him in was a mistake and apologized,) being a belligerent asshole in the hallway, and maintaining just enough social niceties to get on Known Rube Danny’s good side to attempt to kidnap him. We also know that Blaine was so bad at covering his tracks a preteen/barely teen found his conflicting financial records and was able to tell something was rotten. (Either the affair or the mob ties or both, since Mike had details. Sure, the kid had some evil geniusness, but since I don’t believe he ACTUALLY was telling Blaine the truth in those flashback strips, he clearly wasn’t supernaturally infallible – his attempt to do something nice for Amber backfired horribly.) This was an escalation, but not actually much of one.
Ross got fooled by Dina’s acting. While she’s extremely skilled at stealth, I don’t think she’s that great at active deceit.
It strained credibility at times, yes, but it was way more in-character for either villain than people think (remember, Ross’s denomination – and therefore he himself – almost certainly tied themselves politically to a blatantly corrupt fascist who had an affair with a porn star because they thought that they’d get an anti-choice Supreme Court out of it. Evangelical leaders responded to the Stormy Daniels thing by giving him a mulligan. The more time passes, the more I think Blaine as a Trump analogue was intentional.)
It also served three very clear story purposes: Joyce and Becky’s break with the church became permanent, including a final shattering of Carol’s relationship with Joyce and Hank; AmbG finally started talking to each other again and resolved the Blaine subplot, hopefully putting Amber in a more stable mental position even if she’s had a backslide; and judging from some comments on Twitter about the Book Ten commentary, Ross dying allowed Willis to get in some Complicated Feelings About Dead Parents Who Sucked But You Still Loved. The storyline also removed Mike, who much as I think killing let him off easily, had still become an abusive asshole who didn’t fit in the cast but would also require way too much page space to rehabilitate. His death allows more story opportunities for Walky to deal with complicated feelings (as has been clearly hinted,) while leaving an opening for a new character who doesn’t come with the baggage of ‘records Walky crying for kicks.’ Add in some really strong character moments (Joyce death-glaring Ross and calling him on his hypocrisy, Dorothy’s ‘future commander-in-chief,’ Faz of all people becoming a genuine character, and that utterly BEAUTIFUL moment of Amber rejecting Blaine and all he stands for, including her fear of becoming him, with ‘I made me’) and I’m still gonna call it worth the extended break from Standard Reality Rules. But then I also enjoy the superheroic action sequences, too.
I think my main problem with the mob kidnapping storyline is that it asks the reader to suspend disbelief too many times and it stacks.
I was willing to suspend my disbelief for Amazi-girl crashing onto a moving vehicle and not breaking all her bones because the rest of that arc felt grounded. Stuff like that is fine.
But when we have Joyce’s church bailing Ross out PLUS Blaine using mob money to help with this PLUS Ross never questioning Blaine because Blaine basically says the Blues Brothers line “we’re on a mission from God” PLUS six students getting kidnapped in the middle of a crowded fire drill with nobody noticing PLUS random frat boys being completely willing to follow the orders of some creepy middle aged guy because he said they might get a chance to have revenge on a masked vigilante…you get my drift
it’s simply too much and the characters and their actions stop feeling organic and it starts feeling like they’re acting out a script. Everything just conveniently falls into the place for a certain plot to happen.
Honestly Ross’s and the congregation’s behavior checks out for me without hesitation. He’s a good and righteous man of the flock, she’s his wayward lesbian property daughter who’s been led astray by sin. Obviously any Good Like-Minded Christian would come to their rescue! God’s on their side, after all.
If that sounds cultish… it is. But remember that Josh Duggar’s community protected him over his siblings who he molested. (Hell, look at how bigger organizations defend their predators over employees with less influence.) And the funny thing about cults is that the people in them tend to be susceptible to a charismatic (if only superficially) person telling them things they want to hear, and leading them just a bit further in.
The Goon Squad’s only possible excuse is that they run exclusively on superhero logic, though, I’ll grant you that. I can see them going unnoticed in a crowd of likely hundreds* at 3 AM, since they’re students or roughly student-aged, but they were benefitting off a pretty big Somebody Else’s Problem Field to actually get kidnapping done.
* I can’t find Read Hall’s capacity in a cursory Google, but given it has six floors, four wings, and three dining options/areas, I’m lowballing it here. It is a BIG hall at a major university. I’m honestly not certain why Asher was necessary except foreshadowing/exposition.
Thank you for acknowledging that a certain percentage of that arc depends on superhero logic more than realism. I admit it doesn’t mesh well for me, though now I see not everyone has that complaint.
If a plague were descending upon us, surely people would follow the guidance of reputable health professionals and get vaccinated as soon as possible?
Any reasonable disbelief in the scale of humanity’s flaws has moved a great deal further than anticipated in the last year and a half. (and no, I did not think much of us to start) Super hero antics (Amazi-girl and Sal, Dina’s stealth and Joyces teleportation) aside, the rest of it is far less of a stretch than it used to be.
Anti-gun control, still more dead black, indigenous, minority, marginalized people, yet another arbitrary mass shooting (pick one), Proud Boys, Westboro Baptist Church, QAnon, Insurrection, Actual. Fucking. Nazis.
Nazis.
… sigh …
No, at this point a small-time cracked sociopath recruiting a bunch of date-rapist frat-bros for an Alpha-male rape-fest(or ‘prank’ whatever) as a cover for his kidnap/murder scheme is really not a stretch at all. (the church bailing Ross out was never a surprise)
Also, I would like to point out that people were calling things similar to the kidnapping years in advance:
– Cerberus was calling the church trying to bail out Toedad practically as soon as he was arrested.
– I know people were calling Blaine trying to get at Amber through her friends AT LEAST as of Faz’s visit, if not since the first fight.
– Those specific frat boys kept showing up as being beaten up by AG. First for picking on Danny, then for them acting up at the party Ryan was at, then we saw them TRYING TO BREAK INTO WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS THE HOUSE OF A GIRL WHO REPORTED RYAN AND ATTACKING SAL WHEN SHE INTERVENED. Obviously Sal was fine because Sal but even so. Them being easily recruited by Blaine is not exactly a challenge to believe for me given their entire role that far had been ‘easily led stock villains for AG and Sal’.
– Blaine told us how Ryan’s friends got involved. He said he explicitly looked around for locals with a grudge against AG. If anybody fit that description it was them
– I’d hardly say every bad guy/antagonist ever was involved in that kidnapping. Clint, Mary, Leland, Raidah, and Ryan himself off the top of my head were totally uninvolved. Most people who were involved were people who had or could be reasonably expected to have, a grudge against AG because that was Blaine’s goal.
I don’t WANT Leland to come back into the plot, and fortunately the odds are low, but honestly I kinda want that budding serial killer removed from their universe with force. Maybe Clint will run into this Nice Young Man With A Budding Future from the Ivy League and try to set him up with Ruth, prompting his inevitable demise.
> It really really didn’t help that the storyline hinged on Blaine, previously established as good manipulator, acting like an unhinged lunatic
Keep in mind that in Blaine’s first appearance, he ended up in a fight with Amber (and got suplexed by Ruth). So, the idea of him acting as a ‘unhinged lunatic’ doesn’t seem to be too far out of character from things we’ve seen before.
> and Ross, whose established character is that of a self-appointed moral crusader, acting like a complete moron going along with a plan he never understood.
Ross was easily fooled by Dina (who is not exactly a good actor) when she sent him away from the college campus, and when he kidnapped Becky, he thought that “911 would come through the roof”. In other words, him being a moron and not understanding a plan is probably on par for him.
I assumed it was Ross making the comment. (Not saying your interpretation is wrong, just that I had a different interpretation.)
Becky was the first one to see Amazi-girl during the chance, and she was trying to distract Ross while Amber was getting into position. Her blurting out “911 through the roof” would be counter-productive to all of that.
Even if it was Becky who made the comment, Ross was still fooled by Dina, which is still enough to suggest there is a pattern of him doing dumb things.
The tail is clearly arcing to Becky’s side. And while it’s not smart to comment on help arriving, Becky was likely surprised by the roof-thump, stressed, but also aware that Ross would know “sumthin’s uo”, ergo Becky saying something and still being hopeful.
1. Booster is Mike. So is Jennifer. Mike is a force of nature and cannot die.
2. Joyce’s beliefs were a defining factor throughout the Walkyverse, and it’s bit strange to see that go. That said, I don’t think that the comics treatment of Christianity is anywhere as unbalanced as that of the comment section, for example. The thing is, there are some strains of Christianity which go far beyond anything depicted in the comic. The comic is not addressing all churches, but only a subset that is being used, not unrealistically, for dramatic purposes. But the comic shows a fair range, Mary’s, Joyce’s, Jacob’s, and not all are tarred with the same brush.
3. The common thread enabling the mega coalition of bad guys was a strongly shared grudge against AmaziGirl. Ryan’s friends had been repeatedly hammered by Amazigirl and Sal as they were set up with fake addresses. ToeDad had been thwarted by a combination of actions, but it was Amazigirl who landed on his car and kicked his gun away and arguably caused the accident that allowed Becky to escape. Blain had the connections and money to pull them together and offer opportunity for payback. Without Amazigirl the coalition made no sense, but with her it did.
4. Your reactions to the characters are your own and are valid for you. Most of us keep coming back because we enjoy the characters and story.
So, the Booster charge is honestly unfair. Mike has had literal decades of time with which to develop his personality; give Booster the same latitude. Depending on how you count (his first appearance in a Willis comic; his first appearance in DoA specifically), Willis has had a lot of time to add nuance to his character. Booster is wholly new, and a defining characteristic of the webcomic medium is how slowly development can occur.
Regarding religion, nothing I’ve seen in this comic is out of character for the environment in which I grew up, and my church was relatively mainstream, including the stupid kids’ show skits. I’d expect Joyce’s upbringing to be worse than mine, since my church at least had a denomination and some organizational sanction.
Nothing about the Amber/Sal or Ethan/Mike/Danny or Ruth/Billie or Marcie/Malaya plotlines have had anything to do with religion.
The supervillain plot was over the top, but it was also a natural consequence of having put a literal spandex-wearing superhero in the comic. Of course Amazi-Girl had to be confronted with a literal dark mirror. That’s how the superhero genre works, up to and including attack-the-hero-by-proxy. And they weren’t just Ryan’s friends: they were everyone who had a bone to pick with Amazi-Girl. I’m betting that a number of them filed police reports and Blaine used paid-for police to get contacts for enough of them to use as mooks.
And despite Mike having those years, the DoA version didn’t really develop much nuance until the flashback scenes, which were around 8 years in. He had some built in sympathy from his SP! development, but that conflicted in some ways with his portrayal here.
You may want to check out a real life character named Psalty the Singing Song Book, which is the character the singing Hymnal is based on and whose show traumatized my ex-evangelical girlfriend.
There is a LOT of Becky and Joyce in my girlfriend.
2. Fiction imitates and exaggerates life. Willis isn’t out here to write a hyper realistic webcomic; he is here to tell an entertaining fiction based in mundane real life. If any aspects of the tale seem hyperbole it is 1) his prerogative as writer and 2) a narrative technique to make the points he is making impossible to misconstrue.
If a guy is about to say you’re important to him, pauses with dramatic ellipses, and then says it anyway, it’s ’cause he digs you.
Perpetually amused that these two have a ball labeled “capable of saying something emotionally significant” and they just pass it to the other whenever they feel like it.
I’m a little sad that Joe didn’t keep going after panel 4, but she’s clearly (IMO) pulling back from him a bit and it’s not fair to ask him to do all the work (and vulnerability-showing) here.
Ordinarily I’d agree with you but showing vulnerability to people (qnd especially women) is something Jos sorely needs to learn to do so I wish I could be the non-existent devil on his shoulder saying “Tell her how you *really* feel.”
Joyce breaking a vase and having to work it off honestly sounds like a DOA storyline that really could have occurred, had she been the one to get a job at Galasso’s, like maybe she somehow breaks his pizza stone.
Kiss kiss fall in love is the intro song to ouran highschool hostclub about a girl who breaks an expensive vase on h3r first day at a swanky private school and has to work it off in drag for the school’s all male host club. 10/10 do reccommend
It was an entertaining anime, however the ending felt rushed, so did the manga for that matter. it was like they got cancelled unexpectedly and had to finish the story up in a few episodes instead of the several seasons originally planned.
(Down in a steam tunnel beneath Beck…)
*I remove a padlock from a door marked DANGER! KEEP OUT!*
*I use a proprietary-pattern screwdriver to access an electrical panel with the label Property of Muzak Holdings*
*I shut off the electricity, pull off all the breakers, then disconnect several wires and snatch all the fuses from the sockets and toss them in my pocket*
*I reclose the Muzak panel and stick a sign over it that reads OUT OF ORDER TILL FURTHER NOTICE. GONE ICE FISHING*
*Then I get out of the room and close the door and replace the padlock on it*
Wagstaff, you are on your own from here on.
I think Joyce is being cautious because Joe AND her church have disappointed her in the past. Joyce knows that Joe cares more than he lets on, both about things in general and about her in specific — or maybe it would be more accurate to say, Joyce WANTS TO BELIEVE that Joe cares. And I think that’s important, because in a way it really is one last little act of faith for her. By now Joe has demonstrated repeatedly that he isn’t willing or able to honor Joyce’s faith in him. Her behavior is that of a person who’s been burned multiple times refusing to hold out hope again.
It’s an interesting parallel, because both the Church and Joe have hurt Joyce a lot recently despite her trying to see the best in them. I think the biggest difference is that with Joe, the hurt came first, right up front, so the Good Times can only be in the future.
Exactly. Joe’s growing from a baseline disappointment. From there he has managed to *not* be a disappointment on multiple occasions. Everytime? no. But Joe has had plenty more deliveries on good faith than the church.
The last time Joyce wanted to talk feelings with Joe, he ran off with Malaya to avoid the conversation. I think she’s dragging her feet on trusting again.
Yeah that’s the important part of what’s stonewalling her. Joyce has tried more than once to open up to Joe and he’s bailed, so right now when she’s emotionally frustrated she can’t really rely on him because for all she knows this is just a prelude for him to suddenly go “oh wait feelings are stupid lmao boobies” and go back to status quo.
Personally I think she’s still debating the merits of phone vs laptop to herself. She has no idea why they’re there still, and by now she’s past caring.
Unfortunately, Joyce, the glasses are indeed a part of you, the layer where the glasses were drawn has already been merged. (I’m a writer, not an artist so I doubt that’s how it works, but it sounded funny in my head)
That’s more or less how it works. I mean even if they are on a different level for the drawing itself, the act of turning it to a png or jpg definitely flattened the image. Granted that same argument could be used to say she is also part of the background too, but the glasses are definitely merged with her.
Yeah, that’s basically how layers work, like Yotomoe said. Now, if I could just figure out how Willis does those little lighter bits near the outlines (the ones that give it a sort of relief-ish look up close), we could get up to some real mischief.
It’s a popular ship between the main character and her former rival from the Owl House which is a fun and creative and generally good show where a girl goes to the demon realm and learns to be a witch
Ok so I’m reading this as Joyce is still not entirely sure of how Joe feels about her so shes comfortable looking at him in the eyes and straight out asking him.
One of the things I like about Joyce is she directly asks questions of Joe, she doesn’t try to beat around the bush she comes out with the question.
Joe tells Joyce that she knows she means something, something special and now that Joyce has that confirmation shes a little unsure of herself.
Repeating the same line with emphasis on the glasses but now a little bashful and looking away.
Which gives Joe a bit more confidence to move from the big, emotional talk (which hes not comfortable with) to the smooth, almost flirting talk he excels at
Joyce probably doesn’t realise it but its been a masterclass from her the last few strips in making Joe fall big time for her
Shes been firing up Joe’s positive, protective masculinity side and Joe is responding accordingly but he doesn’t know hes putty in her hands
It’s a really nice dance to watch play out because of the mutual respect they have for each other
Joe? A total sweetheart who actually CARES about someone? Say it ain’t so!
I kinda get where Joyce is coming from here though. There does seem to be a lot of mockery of her upbringing and while that may be somewhat justified, it’s not her fault and I imagine it wears her down.
Well it’s now August 2021 and in 31 days it will be the 20th anniversary of my demise and resurrection. Willis’ army of unkillable badass once again looks for evil that can be faced by a single old man with a cane. Seriously, I’m here to take over the world one Golden Corral buffet at a time.
Joe is still trying to figure out how to act around Amber, who is now his step-sister, after having rated her (for good or bad) on his morally indefensible ‘Do List’, and now he has to deal with being confronted by another young woman from that same list who is in the depths of an existential crisis.
Sucks to be him, yeah.
But small potatoes in comparison to the two young women presently dealing with untreated complex PTSD and survivors guilt.
Sad to see Joyce still trying to deny her glasses, nice to see Joe finally asking her about whatever is making her sad and slowly admit she’s important for him. This is reality a cute strip, but I can’t avoid imagining Amber stop to looks to her smartphone and watching them really amazed. That would be so funny!
This might get me thrown in the shipping dungeon, but I think I ship it. Joyce and Joe both have serious problems with relationships that they need to work out, but I feel like given enough time and separate character development, they could be a positive influence on one another and sort of… balance each other out? Joe needs to work on the emotional attachment and commitment side of things, while Joyce needs to overcome her fear and shame of sex. I can relate to Joyce’s issues, and I think she is going to need someone more sex-positive for a partner to get over the shame and fear. Someone that is struggling with their own insecurity/shame/fear might only exacerbate the problem by increasing the anxiety/tension instead of alleviating it.
Honestly, I also really hope the marriage between Joe’s dad and Amber’s mom works out in the long run. Amber’s mom deserves to be happy, and Joe’s dad seems like he’s not a genuinely bad dude like Blaine. He just has commitment issues that drive him to cheating, which is a problem that *can* be worked through. (I know of a couple that did.)
I’m sure Richard’s issues could be worked through – but he’s shown no sign of even acknowledging that they need to be. Last we checked he was still infatuated and didn’t feel like cheating, so there was no need for concern.
Nah, that’s going to blow up eventually and probably be key to Joe’s development.
As for Joe himself, it’s important to remember that his big issue is more that he’s afraid he’s doomed to be like his dad and thus will cheat on and hurt anyone he lets get close to him. It’s not quite as simple as the usual lack of commitment and emotional attachment.
And btw, Catholics (like me), Mormons, mainline Protestants can and are often just as bad. Buddhists are busy committing genocide, as are the atheists is China. Your flag decal, cross etc won’t get you into heaven.
The chinese ‘atheists’ have substituted religious doctrine for state ideological doctrine. The genocide has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with control, power, land resources and is decorated in state doctrine dressed as “post-communism” if any ‘ism’ is required to label it.
I think the point is less ‘they do this because of atheism’ and more ‘People of every religious belief and lack thereof do terrible things so it’s pointless to say that it’s unrealistic to have X religion and do Y horrible thing’.
…aaand… the “buddhists” commiting genocide in Myanmar are a “communist” military dictatorship, so.. at the very least would be ‘non-practicing’. Unless you were talking about some other genocidal ‘buddhists’? Do you have a specific example you meant?
I still don’t really get why Joyce is *always* wearing the glasses since she only needs them for seeing distances – everything else she can see just fine. I know she said it’s to “get used” to them but, if her vision is fine when things are near, wouldn’t that just make them uncomfortable?
as someone who wears glasses to see distances, honestly, not wearing my glasses gives me a headache. i’m not sure her eyesight is as bad as mine, since it seems to have not been an issue until she went to a large college where she’s really far away from the professor, but i wouldnt be able to do things like drive or watch tv from the couch without mine on.
My husband only needs his glasses for distances too, but he wears them 100% of the time because like Smooti already said, he gets headaches if he doesn’t. You actually get eye strain from squinting and trying to focus on stuff you can’t see, so people who need glasses often wear them all the time.
Most people I’ve known who wear glasses for distance didn’t wear them all the time – mostly just wore them for driving or if they were unlucky enough to have to sit at the back of the really big lecture halls.
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“That’s not true! That’s impossible!”
“SEARCH YOUR FACE, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE”
NOOOOOOOO!
With your penis.
“My eyes are back here”
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In fact, with this comment system, we can’t rate it at all.
I feel like this comic is really spiteful toward those who wear glasses.
Glasses-wearing person here – I don’t see it.
I also wear glasses, since I was 3 because I was born legally blind. It doesn’t bother me since it’s a running joke but there has been an noticeable increase in animosity toward the glasses wearing experience since Joyce got them.
It’s more about Joyce’s feeling about wearing glasses than the glasses. Joyce is very “particular” and doesn’t like change. She also hates when food on her plate touches but it’s not like the comic itself hates the concept of the Everything Burrito.
You sure about that? This comic has been very blatantly pro taco in the past which doesn’t necessarily mean it’s ant-burrito but it doesn’t not mean that either. And that Joyce rant a few strips back isn’t helping, neither is the fact she has yet to deliver Sarah her burrito which means it’s probably gotten cold now which is not a pro-burrito move.
“Sirksome Johnson is right!”
“What kind of people are we anyway?”
A burrito is just a better softshell taco that doesn’t spill when you bite into it.
Call it softshell taco 2.0
Quasadillas>Burritos=Enchiladas>Tacos
Just my 2 cents.
Bill has the right idea!
Soft tacos are just burritos that never reached their full potential.
Disagree, there’s no substitute for a street taco with charred asada or pastor on fresh corn tortillas with just a bit of cilantro and onion, covered in hot sauce of your choice
Now I’m hungry
Now take that and finish rolling it up, so you can eat it with one hand and not drop any of the fillings.
Wasn’t it a salad? And she might have dropped it off before visiting Amber.
She was still holding it as of a couple strips ago.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/happiest/
I’m also a glasses wearer and don’t see it, but I should note that the author *also* wears glasses, and most (all?) of the characters in this story share a part of his psyche, so there might be a part of him that hates them. I mean, I don’t *love* wearing them, and certainly wish at times that I didn’t, but… *shrug* not sure where I was going with this.
Joyce needing glaces and hating them is a minor source of drama.
Also, as is well known, Hitler wore glasses.
He needed them after he started doing droplets of adrenaline and cocaine in his eyeballs.
I’ve worn glasses since I was 3, so I’m used to them being part of my face at this point, but that also means I’m more than aware of some annoying things about wearing them. Like how smudges seem to appear on the lenses at random, and how I apparently can’t wear a face mask without fogging up my glasses.
Try sitting your glasses further down your nose than usual. That (and keeping the lenses clean) made all the difference for me.
I’ve just been using the cheap paper masks, so I don’t know if this works with cloth.
Maybe You Need Better Glasses Then
Maybe you need a stronger prescription?
*insert obvious jo-* Oh wait Carl and Yotomoe already nevermind.
Agreed. I mean, that TVTropes page about Author Appeal and glasses didn’t come out of nowhere.
You must have missed all the times through the history of Willis’s comics where he has let us know that he likes LIKES glasses on girls.
Also, the times where Willis has mentioned that Joyce is basically an autobiographical character and we know he’s worn glasses for a long time. I.e. we’re most likely seeing the insecurity he experienced when he first started wearing glasses.
Idk my glasses-wearing face read it the same way as people who hate having a big butt, even though there’s a whole song everyone loves that glorifies the biggest of butts
That is, this is Joyce’s anxiety, not a blanket attack on glasses
It’s too late, Joyce, the glasses are part of your model sheet. There’s no turning back.
Joyce, just accept that you’re a cyborg now.
Panels 3 and 4 are killing me.
Excepting the end of Hades, they’re giving me more life than I think I’ve felt in years.
I love the end of Hades. At least I THINK I love the end of Hades.
Even after a few hundred hours, I’m not convinced there isn’t more. That game has like a zillion lines of dialog.
There’s probably an option to romance Charon after you get 500 consecutive wins or something.
I’ve got something like 1600 escape attempts and past 1000 I was still getting dialogue I’d never heard before.
I mean, do you think you’ve tapped Hypnos’ Helpful Hints on Not Dying, at least?
That depends. Have you seen him giving those tips to Meg?
Me too. Someone please let Joe know he’s allowed to have feelings.
Actually also include letting him know that he’s not the poison seed he thinks he is and that he’s actually capable of changing and bexoming a good person.
…Man of all the characters to get a redenption arv that I’d be very imvested in I never thought it’d be Joe.
The most important thing I was told in high school was probably, “You are not going to turn out like your father.”
That is the weakest Joe Smirk^TM I’ve ever see in panel 6. I think he’s starting to discover he can’t hide from them any longer.
What do you mean? Joe’s clearly having an emotion right there in Panel 6!
I mean, it’s snark, but it’s affectionate snark!
When the punchline transforms into the gut punch
Frame 4: is Joe having a realization?
Is it that walking away from a serious conversation to have casual sex with Malaya actually hurt Joyce’s feelings? Or that Joyce looks cute in her glasses?
I think Joe is recognizing he loves Joyce.
Joe came so close to admitting having real feelings for Joyce there.
See Joyce? You’re moving on up!
To the east side?
To a deluxe apartment in the sky!
Gonna feel really dumb if I wake up tomorrow and all my comments appear together when I’m not seeing them after I post.
Oh, now one shows up.
Speaking of body accessories…. why is there a drawing of a rat wearing a chastity cage on Willis’ Twitter feed????
It makes sense in context.
Well, more sense.
Willis is showing leaked images from the new Beast Wars reboot where Rattrap is into BDSM.
Remember the show walky acted in as a kid? Yeah thats a character.
Sigmund Freud was right!
I’ve found that it’s best for one’s sanity not to ask these questions about Willis’s feed.
….
Also what Prince Mech said but that’s more boring.
I assumed it was something to do with 9CL before I remembered Chastity Churchmouse.
It’s so cute I am so surprised by how much I’m liking Joe and Joyce’s developing relationship and friendship and how nice it is to see Joe care about her even if he’s still bad at showing it
It’s an interesting dance the two are doing here. Like, I don’t think Joyce believes it’s as simple as that, but for a number of reasons, getting vulnerable with people isn’t easy for her right now, anymore than it is for Joe to be genuine here.
I’m waiting for the big kiss.
Well, the LasikPlus ad I’m getting on the page agrees with you, Joyce
I understand Joyce and the glasses. Mine are almost essential for near vision, but god I hate wearing them.
I’m still kind of lukewarm on the JoJo ship to be honest. I mean more power to them if they start smooching and the people who enjoy that, but Josephthan’s just not there for me personality wise.
Can you recall any other time characters were wearing matching clothes?
I’m making a legal call that mutual nudity counts as matching clothes. Therefore, Jennifer and Ruth, Walky and Dorothy, Dorothy and Danny, Danny and Amber, Joe and Roz, Joe and Malaya, Mike and Ethan, and also probably Sierra, Grace, and Mandy have all worn matching clothes. See, I’m thinking circles around everyone else because y’all were probably trying to remember actual articles of clothing.
Dorothy and Joyce briefly did when Joyce got Dorothy to go to church with her that one time.
…Pretty sure that’s just more evidence in support of Wagstaff’s point, honestly.
I have been reading this comic for a good while now and in the past few days I have decided to re-read the whole thing from start to end. Because of this, I have some criticism of the way the comic has been going lately:
1 – Booster as they currently exist are nothing more but a rather annoying Psychoanalyst and plot device, speaking only in pseudo-Clinical terms. Having a character that understands the characters inner troubles and issues better then the characters themselves can be good, this was done well with Mike (who used this info to fuck with people) but if done poorly, like with Booster you just get a way for the writer of the comic to copy-paste their character plot synopsis directly into the comic rather than doing the work to actually show it. I would probably believe you if you told me that Booster had been created solely to have someone point-blank explain what had happened with the characters psychologically during the time skip and where we are in this new paradigm. Booster may become a good character later down the line, in comparative terms they have been in the comic for a very short amount of time, but as it stands their psychoanalysis comes off as smug and annoying and rather “above it all”. Perhaps this will be limited to setting up the premises of the post-timeskip world. I sure hope so!
2 – The depiction of religion has gradually shifted from being believable and somewhat balanced to being rather spiteful. I think this got particular bad after the Jacob stuff although you can see it early on too, for instance with the Hymmel the Humming Hymnal containing quite a few laughable lines (“All the good things we do are god workin’ through us!”). I am not a Christian and I don’t particularly mind reading a comic with a more satirical anti-religious slant, but what I don’t enjoy reading is spite and that is what the comics depiction of religion has grown into. I almost feel as if the author may have too much skin in the game on this one, to the point that plausibility and storytelling have suffered. It seems that nothing bad can happen without religion being at least partially to blame and Joyce’s church have gotten to the point of conspiring with mobsters to pay the bail of a man who brought a rifle to a university and kidnapped his daughter. Joyce’s character has been the the most affected by this.
Smaller complaints:
– The comic has come close to jumping the shark with the entirety of the mobster/christian kidnapping arc which came off as implausible. Literally all the bad guys in the universe, from Amber’s dad to Becky’s dad to the weirdly devoted friends of some random rapist all got to together for one big plot. Why were Ryan’s friends even there? Did Amber’s dad just have them at hand? The time-skip also doesn’t help, what with skipping the immediate after-effects of such a momentous event. We don’t get to see how the new paradigm emerged and it thus feels forced. We move on to quick. Feels unsatisfying.
– Becky, personality wise, has been obviously flanderized becoming more one note as time goes on, to an extent that despite the death of her father and all the insanity of that entire arc her current personality is more or less just an exaggerated version of how she was immediately after coming out as a lesbian. This exaggeration can even be seen visually with the increasingly ridiculous looking hair (if you have to draw half the characters face on top of their bangs then the hair is too long, LOL).
– Ruth and Billie’s relationship repeats the same two or three beats in an infinite loop and its getting old. The most recent repetition is more or less justified by Ruth and Billie’s fairly believable regression but that doesn’t make it fun to read.
– All attempts to make Carla and Malaya, two annoying characters interesting or worth reading about have been too half-hearted to do much and yet.
That’s all I have to say. I hope the comic resolves some of these as it goes forward. I still find it a much more put together experience than damn near anything else in the webcomic world but its got some problems lately.
The Hymnal stuff is just like an accurate reflection of reality. Yeah it’s stupid but as it turns out, reality is stupid.
-__-
I don’t think this comic’s representation of Evangelical Christianity is unfair? All it’s criticisms are grounded in real things that really happened. Even the part about throwing their money behind a mob stooge, Evangelicals sent one of those dudes to the fucking White House.
Yeah it’s not a kind portrayal, but that’s not really avoidable here. The observable reality of Evangelical Christianity is just not kind, and if you are making a comic about them even remotely based in reality they will not come off well.
I’ve seen the Psalty videos Hymmel is almost certainly based on. Hymmel is only slightly exaggerated, mostly to make the weird messages more obvious in a panel or two instead of taking a few minutes.
I was about to say “Oh no, Hymnal thing is real” as well..as a Fundie kid that grew up in an identical church to Joyce’s….that was a very real thing and it’s a very real take on Evangelical Christianity to an UNCOMFY degree…
Just so you’re aware “All the good things we do are god workin’ through us!” is basically verbatim what I got from church growing up, not some spiteful aberration.
For the rest of your points, sure. But religion can be pretty bonkers at times.
one of my favorite parts of pouring out my soul about the cult i was raised in is folks calling me a liar, it’s wonderful
It really is unfortunate.
When you try to communicate about what’s wrong with it with fellow group members, you can’t do it without having your words magically twisted into: “I’m crazy, evil, and weak”.
On the flip side, when you try to tell your story to people outside the group as a cautionary tale, you can’t do so without having your words magically transformed into: “I’m a liar” or “I’m gullible, assanine and spineless”.
Before long, you find yourself in a nowhere land of the unheard.
Which is probably part of the power of groups like that (not just cults, but abusive groups in general). If you can’t find support outside it due to being labelled some form of liar or other… it’s that bit harder to step away.
I’m sure some of their trained behaviors are less about recruiting outsiders than galvanizing the in-group so they don’t abandon ship.
I’m sorry you have to deal with that, Willis. Some people are lucky enough to have never seen these kinds of things in the real world, so to them it seems too bananas to be real. But bananas are real. And delicious. …wait
You have my sympathy.
It really is amazing… in a world where people shoot abortion doctors, subject their own children to religious-based “conversion therapy”, forgo medical treatments in lieu of prayer, fail to seek help when their son molests their daughters (see: Josh Duggar), and continue donating to televangelists like Peter Popoff (despite his past scandals), you would think that people would understand: religious extremists exist, and they can do some pretty dumb things. I recognize that you may use various plot devices that are rather drastic in order to advance story lines, but the attitudes and actions of people like Ross, Carol and pre-atheist Joyce are pretty understandable when compared to certain real-life evangelicals.
It may not be every Christian who has gone off the deep end, but its not an insignificant number either.
You missed the bit with they then expect the daughters to forgive the son and carry on as normal, don’t see why the son can’t be considered a responsible, trusted member of society, etc… Would also not be shocked, from what I’ve heard about fundie communities, if the sisters weren’t expected to forgive him because clearly as small children they seduced him, it’s all their fault, and they should be ashamed of themselves for being temptresses, impure, and daring to risk damaging his reputation with their foul ways, do not give access to dissenting views/non-religious forms of therapy, do not give any outlet for expressing pain/confusion/grief, possibly do apologise to your future husband, your pastor, and probably your male relatives for not keeping themselves pure…
Religion is not necessarily a bad thing – it gives a lot of people comfort and strength, it can help build and strengthen communities, help provide an agreed-upon moral code… However, it can also be cult-like, be used to justify and codify a whole host of bigotry, has been used to justify a fair few wars and genocidal campaigns over the years…
I think the range is represented pretty well, from Mary (embracing the worst of the fundie-hate outlook), to Joyce and Becky (moving away from their fundie teachings and finding new ways, with or without necessarily retaining a core belief in a divine being, including Joyce’s pain over the loss of the certainty, joy and comfort that gave her), to e.g. Sierra/whatsit Joyce crushed hard on (strong core belief including weekly church attendance, but while their faith is part of who they are, it’s not their largest shaping force), to Joe and Billie’s “I identify as ______ and maybe attend services for the big religious holidays, enjoy the festivals, etc, but don’t really think of religion much in my day to day life”, to Dorothy’s consciously chosen atheism with no conflict between that and being a strongly moral, good person…
It’s cuz we lived through something so BONKERS they can’t imagine us actually having lived through this garbage…
<3
I grew up in a religion considered to be cult-ish that's not even nearly as horrifying as yours and I know this stuff is real. Hell, I live right by the "Baptist World Church" that gained notoriety for saying Obama and gay people should be executed.
If it makes you feel better I also like Booster a lot and Carla is my fave right behind Sarah
Eh. You may be right. It came off to me as a rather cynical and uncharitable distillation of some Christian doctrine, similar to how a Christian might say that an Atheist can have no objective basis for morality. Perhaps that’s true in a sense but its not a very fair charecterization and it stinks, to me at least, of a kind of bad faith. I understand where you are coming from though.
Telling an ex evangelixal that their lived experience is a “bad faith” reading of religion as anwhole especially when they have included several incredibly reasonable religious ajd christian characters in their story is a *really* dick move, man.
If we’re going to get into the whole standpoint thing here then I think it could be said that at least sometimes having an immediate personal involvement can compromise your view rather than give you special authority. If you had a really bad breakup with a Girl I wouldn’t be coming to you first for information on how she behaves because I understand you have a kind of grudge. That doesn’t mean everything you say is wrong or stupid or you can’t be trusted at all, but I think in this story, there definitely is a kind of authorial grudge against religion. That is perfectly fine in my eyes and its valid view and attitude to have, I’m sure the grudge is held for justifiable reasons, but it gets somewhat annoying when it compromises the story or creates caricatures in place of believable charecters. I think it sometimes does. It might be kind of a dick move to point it, but where it effects the story, I think it reasonable to do so.
As for the sane Christians, they’ve been more or less all but gone (excepting Becky) since the end of the Jacob stuff. Joyce’s charecter progression in that time has always been becoming more unsure of her faith.
….. ok.
buddy?
Comparing escaping a cult to breaking up with someone is really, really not it.
like a bad breakup with a girl????? man i can’t believe i approved your first comment tonight just for you to be a shitfuck to me, what the actual fuck
actual garbage person
Dude, by the logic you’re using a Jewish Holocaust survivor would have a “compromised view” of the Holocaust and its horrors and thus a questionable authority. Or that black scholars/historians have a “compromised view” of slavery or the civil rights movement or contemporary BLM activism.
I hope you can see the logical fallacy you’re making in your comparison.
Conflating a survivor of a traumatic situation to the potential bias people can manifest from living an average is not the good analogy you seem to think it is.
*living an average life is not*
This is an excellent point, thank you for making it!
Actually, there are several ‘sane’ Christians still in the strip apart from Becky. We also have Lucy, Sierra, and Agatha. All of them have been seen since the start of the current school term. (And we may still see Jacob again.)
And those are just the ones we know have attended church… Its possible that there are others that may believe in god, but either haven’t been to church, or have but it hasn’t been part of any strip. For example, I remember an early strip where Danny is talking to his parents on the phone and they ask him if he’s been to Church yet.
Yeah, Danny’s a Christian, but he doesn’t really go to church, or if he does, not often. He has still cited things like when Amber got mad and flipped a table, he pointed out Jesus did the same thing in righteous indignation, and that she ought to cut herself some slack.
I forget if we’ve ever seen Sal’s faith. I think Billie/Jennifer has been sorta-Christian but not really putting a lot of thought into it, and Walky’s seemingly agnostic or atheist given a lot of his flippant jokes, though given his parents putting him in the Hymnal production, I assume his parents are Christians.
I think Joyce woke her up for church the first Sunday and Billie basically said “Of course I’m Christian. What’s that got to do with Sundays? They. Are. For. Sleeping”
Amber and AG are at least raised Catholic, as well, though whether or not they practice is unknown (and possibly tied into Blaineness – ‘what god would let HIM exist’ is a question I can see a young AmbG asking. Especially if Blaine’s done the I Am A Good Christian Businessman act before, which is purely speculative but would make sense.)
Becky’s one of the only still-religious characters whose plotline is ABOUT religion, sure, but that’s in large part because Willis is writing this as an exvangelical whose experience with religion was a cult. Kinda reflects the stories about religious characters they have to tell, y’know?
We’ve been through this circular logic before. “All the Christians are bigots!” “What about X?” “They’re not a real Christian, they’re not bigoted enough.”
Okay usually i try to keep civil in the comments but in this specific case i don’t think Willis will mind if i tell you to shut the fuck up because what you’re doing? Telling a victim that their portrayal of their own lived experiences is bitter and “in bad faith”? That they are too close to the issue and “have a compromised view” of their own experiences and trauma????? That is fucking morally repugnant and you should be ashamed. Fuck off.
Dude, Evangelical Christianity (the kind both Willis and I grew up in) is a fucking doomsday cult. The only requirement for a “fair” characterization is an honest one and dressing it up like you’re suggesting would be the direct opposite of that.
How the heck is it uncharitable when the author is literally saying the worst aspect are semi-autobiographical? The comic isn’t some thesis statement on all of Christianity, it’s focus though is on a main character who was literally raised in a community of some of the worst cult-ish types of Christians possible, because that’s the type of life the author grew up in. If it doesn’t seem “fair” to you, imagine what the life of author felt like to them.
And the comic has tons of Christian characters who aren’t cultish/shitheads, in fact the majority of the cast are probably secular Christians. And since they aren’t shitty about their religion, their issues and arcs aren’t going to be about their faith.
To anyone reading this who still thinks Willis’s comic’s depiction of fundamentalist Christians is fucked up, you have obviously never played The Binding of Isaac.
I’m just confused about people doubting it – I mean, I always thought Christian fundamentalists’ shittiness has been thoroughly documented over the decades.
The author has “too much skin in the game” when depicting autobiographical situations and personal development? Miss me.
You re-read the whole comic?! That’s really impressive actually.
I do feel the need to address the complaint about religion or more specifically the plot involving two evil dad working together with a bunch of goons who really loved a rapist to take down one girl/vigilante which is a ridiculous story but I feel like people forget this comic is very ridiculous most of the time. It skirts a line between realism and over the top comic book logic. Amber survived crashing full force into a car once, and we just saw Dina attacking people like a dinosaur.
So yeah the idea that a church group would get manipulated into working with a mobster to kidnap and endanger their own children because they were really ride or die for one of their own congregation that threatened some of the member’s own children at gunpoint is really stupid and nonsensical but that’s the fun of the comic sometimes.
Like, yeah. It’s kinda silly, but even ignoring the fact that this is a universe operating on golden age superhero costume rules where a shitty cloth eyemask and slightly mussed up hair render you completely unidentifiable —
Yknow the thing with evangelical christians is they are also often really far right politically in other ways, such as loving the NRA, racism, Donald Trump, yada yada, and several of these churches are founded by hucksters taking advantage of the crazy and or vulnerable so the whole “getting manipulated into working with the mob” isn’t even *that* wacky.
The fact that Joyce’s mother defended it kind of was the tipping point for me that made me roll my eyes. Lady, he tied up your daughter and threw her in the back of a van with a mobster weilding a ball peen hammer and a bunch of freinds of the guy who tried to roofy her. Are you a human being or some kind of evil spirit?
I saw an article recently about a Parkland survivor talking about how his dad is so deep into QAnon shit that he thinks his own son is lying and that it was all paid actors.
Deliberate misinformation to form cults is a helluva drug.
*sips down flask of brandy & cocoa*
That’s horrible.
Ironically, both the Parkland dad and Joyce’s mom at that point were likely experiencing some of the most violent cognitive dissonance imaginable. If they reject the justifications for such atrocities against their children, they’re out. All the time, money, emotion, ego and effort they’ve invested into the group for years or even decades would go to waste. They’d also loose all their friends and family who are also group members. But under all that, they hold another idea that will lock them and countless others in manipulative groups, hemorrhaging away their time, emotion and money for years to come:
“I could NEVER be manipulated,” they think to themselves.
To them, the only ones who fall for woos and cons are gullible, young, stupid. And naturally, they don’t think that of themselves. But nevertheless, they WERE manipulated. Regardless of any personal deficiency or lack of intellect, it all comes down to the fact that they, like all other humans, possess a brain that’s evolved not to strive towards truth, but towards internal consistency.
Man back in 2012 there was a mom from the fundie group here in town that actively killed her son because she was convinced the rapture was coming and wanted to make sure he made it.
That is FUCKED.
After this many times trying to predict Armageddon and the horribly ugly mess that always creates, it should be the time people wake up and realize they’ve been taken over by something extremely malignant.
But the pattern persists, not just in Christianity, nor even exclusively within religion. ANY group that makes a business of predicting the end of the world will inevitably become practiced in deceit, distortion, cover-up and denia techniques that they have to deploy when their prophecies fail — and they ALWAYS fail.
Oooh yeah, my church preached eeevery doomsday event, I’d always go to sleep terrified of the rapture and me not being without sin enough to go to Heaven, it was an absolute nightmare…x.x
I’m so sorry you had to go through that!
How did they explain their failure to predict the rapture each time they tried?
What was your church anyway?
It was “Penticostal” and they would always say “WELL No man truly knows the day or the hour, but it’s coming, so you have to always be ready, Jesus is coming!” Keeping the congrigation in a perpetual state of being ready, and thus being more willing to pour their funds into the offering baskets of the church….
As time went on, service became more and more about giving money to the church…
Horrible, and sadly predictable.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves have tried and failed predicting the end of the world EIGHT TIMES in the last century. When their predictions fail, out of all things they blame their MEMBERS for believing in them! They basically THRIVE on convicting members that they are living in the end times, so no surprise there.
*throws up in mouth a little*
I personally know of people who have done things just as terrible in order not to have to “compromise” the solidity of their worldview.
This is NOT caricature. People like this exist. Let me add my voice to the increasing stack of people telling you they’ve seen it.
Study murderous psychopaths and their relationships with their mothers. Then come back and tell us mothers can’t be horrible to their children.
(no, it’s not all of them, but holy hell it sure has a high rate of correlation)
Oh man, that shit happened all the time. Like “oh, maybe Church member was just struggling with demons, can we really blame him?” Like he just hospitalized his wife by beating her, I think we can safely condemn him. But he goes to church AND he’s sorry, and Jesus forgives.
Oh so Jesus forgives those gay people who, say, never beat and hospitalized a woman?
No that’s a deadly sin.
Well, they could be forgiven as long as they repent and stop being gay.
Or pretend to.
My mom, when I was about 5, became convinced through church-supported delusions that my dad was sexually molesting my siblings and I (he was not), and after two years of soul-searching, got a restraining order. Once, during supervised visitation, I said no to my dad about something or other. My mom, who was AT THAT VERY MOMENT ACCUSING HIM OF MOLESTING US, which she 100% believed he had been doing, told me it was a sin to talk back to your parents/adults and that I should never, ever contradict him like that again.
It is absolutely, completely, and utterly believable that if someone had kidnapped me as a young adult at gunpoint in order to recapture their queer daughter, she would have defended that person.
Every time someone shows up on here to tell David Willis that he’s wrong about his own fucking lived experiences with Christianity, lived experiences that I gotta be honest look a WHOLE LOT like mine, my siblings’, and several of my friends’, I have to spend the rest of the afternoon calming down somehow or other.
Why is it SO hard for you to believe that there is a radical, dangerous, deeply authoritarian sect of Christianity? Why does it seem SO unrealistic that individuals in that sect do shit like this?
It’s also an exaggeration based in like, real things that happen
Nah, Willis should further the anti-religious slant. If someone has ever found religion and did not actively make the world a worse place for it, I’d like to meet them.
Wittgenstein? I liked what he said about God in the Tractatus and his WW1 notebooks and he did not seem to be a horrible person biographically speaking.
Like, I wanna object with some idea that you’re goin’ a little too hard on the religion angle, but… I mean, there’s literally no good deed you can do that’s made lesser just because you didn’t do it with a religious paintjob. That paint might offer some additional comfort to someone who’s already in your religion, but that’s totally subjective and personal. I dunno, is that a coherent thought? Not trying to step on any toes here.
You bring to mind the story (parrable?) of the atheist. The short short part being:
“God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion.”
Now as an atheist this is both an affront and yet also reassuring/compelling. I don’t credit a sky god with my volition to be kind, but I appreciate that at least some religious people can understand that you don’t need faith to be moral. It still sucks that they figure it’s cuz their god made me that way, but they have their head wrapped in freewill and an omnipotent god not being a contradiction.
As a fellow Atheist, thank you for sharing this.
Well, I don’t think I make the world a worse place. YMMV, I guess, but I don’t believe I do most of the things a regular reader of this comic would usually consider “making the world a worse place”. At any rate, I aim not to.
Aside from the larger discussion at hand, about which I’m siding with the majority here to say that yeah, religion is a cult and gaslighting is awful, I would like to get praise that there is a distinction between “finding religion” and “embracing organized religion”. My polytheism probably saved my life after the trauma leftover from being raised Christian. As a personal thing, it harms no one. But organized religion, on the other hand, as a cult and a tool for brainwashing and gaslighting, can be terrifying.
“Get praise” should be “raise the point” and I am very tired
I have to ask, who is your audience in writing all that? Some of your points have a bit of resonance for me, but your point on Carla and Malaya really brings home to me that you don’t understand the diversity of views that audience members have regarding the cast. I love them both, and I’m fairly confident in saying that your take on Carla is not widely held and your take on Malaya is.
I’m with you on Booster (so far) and the supervillain plot, but the church stuff is basically from life.
I pretty much agree with everything you’ve posted, mostly about the kidnapping arc and the one-note Becky
I don’t agree with 2 (except where it coincides with kidnapping arc) because it seems to me that sort of church thing is probably from the author’s own experiences
I agree with the part about jumping the shark with the whole mobster kidnapping plot with every bad person ever being involved. Sorry Willis, it’s just stretches belief on every level and it kills the gravitas of previous storylines.
It used to be that the most dramatic and heart-rending thing to happen was that Becky got kidnapped at gunpoint in broad daylight. Then we had a possible serial rapist Ryan come to a dorm room specifically to threaten women with a knife. Those two events were plausible and they carried a lot of weight. People in the comments talked about similar life experiences, people that were affected by homophobia, family abuse and forced conversion therapy; and by violent misogyny that’s often fueled by PUA culture.
But having six (six!!) students kidnapped in a completely bizarre plot cooked up by a mafia stooge to get at a masked vigilante doesn’t feel grounded in reality, it feels like a B-plot from some cop show. It really really didn’t help that the storyline hinged on Blaine, previously established as good manipulator, acting like an unhinged lunatic; and Ross, whose established character is that of a self-appointed moral crusader, acting like a complete moron going along with a plan he never understood.
I seem to recall someone saying that the reason Ross was killed off as a character was so he would not be a negative shadow hanging over Becky’s life. I don’t know if that was a fan theory or from Willis itself.
But here’s the thing: Ross was going to be in jail for YEARS, by the time he got out, Becky would have moved on with her life, and she would have taken steps to be beyond his reach.
I’d agree it’s hard and not fun writing about an adult character who despite going no-contact (possibly with a restraining order) with their abusive parent, still fears that one day this person will show up at their doorstep to make their life shit all over again.
This could be something incredible if written right, but I can’t fault any author for avoiding something so emotionally charged, especially if it’s based off the author’s own experiences.
But killing off the abusive parent character instead of dealing feels like a lazy cop-out. This comic is over a DECADE old and we’re still not done with a full school year. It’s entirely possible that this comic would come to its natural conclusion in another ten years and Becky would still be in her second year of university. Dealing with the possibility of her abusive parent coming back into her life could be just some far off future thing that doesn’t have to be dealt in the comic. Why kill off Ross?
“I’m going to be a fuckin’ scientist.” while giving her father the double birds was such a banger line. It was the perfect way for Becky to exit her horrible father’s life.
1) Ross would still have had a trial, requiring the cast’s presence and probably more interviews and the like. This could have been glossed over, but for
2) The fact that Ross almost certainly died as an outlet to process Willis’s complicated emotions about his mother’s death, which occurred not too long before that storyline was plotted out. At the end of the first Ross storyline, when Carol calls Joyce and echoes Ross’s rhetoric, Willis wrote a blog post about being semi-estranged from his mother under similar circumstances. Unfortunately, feelings about parents are rarely simple, especially when death is in play. Even when, like Ross, they’re abusive. (I had a biological grandfather I called ‘the familial Blaine’ around here. He died last year. I had no relationship to him because my parent recognized he shouldn’t be around children. My parent still grieved his death, and was sad that the pandemic meant the choice they’d been dreading for YEARS about attending his funeral had been taken from them.) That role wouldn’t work with Blaine, who DEFINITELY needed to die narratively (since the mob meant jail wasn’t a guarantee) but who AmbG had shown no affection towards whatsoever. Becky and Joyce, however, DID have good times with Ross, even though they were messy and tainted by what they knew now. That made him a much better candidate, especially since he was already in Blaine’s sights. I alluded to this in my other reply, but really, this is why Ross specifically had to die. The double birds were perfect! But even when you know it was a good idea to never talk to your terrible parent again, their death has a way of bringing up all the messy feelings you took to a therapist to hold firm in that decision.
Thank you for this reply because a lot of this makes more sense now. I had not considered Ross’ death to be a way Willis to process some of his own complicated emotions about his parents.
That said, I still don’t like the mob kidnapping storyline for the reasons mentioned above: it feels completely unbelievable and detached from reality in a way that cheapens the previous dramatic moments that worked incredibly well. It’s hard to read Becky’s kidnapping at gunpoint arc and take it seriously because now I know that Ross later dies getting his face smashed in by hammer during an incredibly convoluted and nonsense plan to lure out Amazigirl.
If fans are allowed to make suggestions, I would have proposed that Ross dies from getting sick in prison and not getting proper healthcare. That’s anticlimactic for someone who loomed so large in Becky’s life and it would be entirely on purpose: Ross is not defeated in a huge fight or a big final showdown, but rather by a bacteria and the apathy of the carceral system.
Heck, it could even tie to Becky’s new political career, since it would give her awareness of how godawful the prison industrial complex is.
I went into my defense of the kidnapping below, but let’s just say I disagree. (Also I’m pretty sure Blaine had already started bailing Ross out before Ross dying served a writerly purpose. The Blaine showdown was inevitable – he was continuing to escalate, AmbG’s not sharing memories was guaranteed to be a plot point for catastrophe and Amber’s self-loathing was getting worse and worse, and AG being a literal superhero meant she was allowed a literal supervillain to facilitate those plotlines resolving. Ross got roped into it to give it extra stakes, especially since the previous time we saw Blaine vs AmbG he wasn’t exactly competent or a match for his daughter.)
Blaine’s first onscreen actions were menacing Amber in front of witnesses until she punched him (and Dina’s parents realized within about two minutes of interacting that letting him in was a mistake and apologized,) being a belligerent asshole in the hallway, and maintaining just enough social niceties to get on Known Rube Danny’s good side to attempt to kidnap him. We also know that Blaine was so bad at covering his tracks a preteen/barely teen found his conflicting financial records and was able to tell something was rotten. (Either the affair or the mob ties or both, since Mike had details. Sure, the kid had some evil geniusness, but since I don’t believe he ACTUALLY was telling Blaine the truth in those flashback strips, he clearly wasn’t supernaturally infallible – his attempt to do something nice for Amber backfired horribly.) This was an escalation, but not actually much of one.
Ross got fooled by Dina’s acting. While she’s extremely skilled at stealth, I don’t think she’s that great at active deceit.
It strained credibility at times, yes, but it was way more in-character for either villain than people think (remember, Ross’s denomination – and therefore he himself – almost certainly tied themselves politically to a blatantly corrupt fascist who had an affair with a porn star because they thought that they’d get an anti-choice Supreme Court out of it. Evangelical leaders responded to the Stormy Daniels thing by giving him a mulligan. The more time passes, the more I think Blaine as a Trump analogue was intentional.)
It also served three very clear story purposes: Joyce and Becky’s break with the church became permanent, including a final shattering of Carol’s relationship with Joyce and Hank; AmbG finally started talking to each other again and resolved the Blaine subplot, hopefully putting Amber in a more stable mental position even if she’s had a backslide; and judging from some comments on Twitter about the Book Ten commentary, Ross dying allowed Willis to get in some Complicated Feelings About Dead Parents Who Sucked But You Still Loved. The storyline also removed Mike, who much as I think killing let him off easily, had still become an abusive asshole who didn’t fit in the cast but would also require way too much page space to rehabilitate. His death allows more story opportunities for Walky to deal with complicated feelings (as has been clearly hinted,) while leaving an opening for a new character who doesn’t come with the baggage of ‘records Walky crying for kicks.’ Add in some really strong character moments (Joyce death-glaring Ross and calling him on his hypocrisy, Dorothy’s ‘future commander-in-chief,’ Faz of all people becoming a genuine character, and that utterly BEAUTIFUL moment of Amber rejecting Blaine and all he stands for, including her fear of becoming him, with ‘I made me’) and I’m still gonna call it worth the extended break from Standard Reality Rules. But then I also enjoy the superheroic action sequences, too.
I think my main problem with the mob kidnapping storyline is that it asks the reader to suspend disbelief too many times and it stacks.
I was willing to suspend my disbelief for Amazi-girl crashing onto a moving vehicle and not breaking all her bones because the rest of that arc felt grounded. Stuff like that is fine.
But when we have Joyce’s church bailing Ross out PLUS Blaine using mob money to help with this PLUS Ross never questioning Blaine because Blaine basically says the Blues Brothers line “we’re on a mission from God” PLUS six students getting kidnapped in the middle of a crowded fire drill with nobody noticing PLUS random frat boys being completely willing to follow the orders of some creepy middle aged guy because he said they might get a chance to have revenge on a masked vigilante…you get my drift
it’s simply too much and the characters and their actions stop feeling organic and it starts feeling like they’re acting out a script. Everything just conveniently falls into the place for a certain plot to happen.
Honestly Ross’s and the congregation’s behavior checks out for me without hesitation. He’s a good and righteous man of the flock, she’s his wayward lesbian
propertydaughter who’s been led astray by sin. Obviously any Good Like-Minded Christian would come to their rescue! God’s on their side, after all.If that sounds cultish… it is. But remember that Josh Duggar’s community protected him over his siblings who he molested. (Hell, look at how bigger organizations defend their predators over employees with less influence.) And the funny thing about cults is that the people in them tend to be susceptible to a charismatic (if only superficially) person telling them things they want to hear, and leading them just a bit further in.
The Goon Squad’s only possible excuse is that they run exclusively on superhero logic, though, I’ll grant you that. I can see them going unnoticed in a crowd of likely hundreds* at 3 AM, since they’re students or roughly student-aged, but they were benefitting off a pretty big Somebody Else’s Problem Field to actually get kidnapping done.
* I can’t find Read Hall’s capacity in a cursory Google, but given it has six floors, four wings, and three dining options/areas, I’m lowballing it here. It is a BIG hall at a major university. I’m honestly not certain why Asher was necessary except foreshadowing/exposition.
Thank you for acknowledging that a certain percentage of that arc depends on superhero logic more than realism. I admit it doesn’t mesh well for me, though now I see not everyone has that complaint.
If a plague were descending upon us, surely people would follow the guidance of reputable health professionals and get vaccinated as soon as possible?
Any reasonable disbelief in the scale of humanity’s flaws has moved a great deal further than anticipated in the last year and a half. (and no, I did not think much of us to start) Super hero antics (Amazi-girl and Sal, Dina’s stealth and Joyces teleportation) aside, the rest of it is far less of a stretch than it used to be.
Anti-gun control, still more dead black, indigenous, minority, marginalized people, yet another arbitrary mass shooting (pick one), Proud Boys, Westboro Baptist Church, QAnon, Insurrection, Actual. Fucking. Nazis.
Nazis.
… sigh …
No, at this point a small-time cracked sociopath recruiting a bunch of date-rapist frat-bros for an Alpha-male rape-fest(or ‘prank’ whatever) as a cover for his kidnap/murder scheme is really not a stretch at all. (the church bailing Ross out was never a surprise)
Also, I would like to point out that people were calling things similar to the kidnapping years in advance:
– Cerberus was calling the church trying to bail out Toedad practically as soon as he was arrested.
– I know people were calling Blaine trying to get at Amber through her friends AT LEAST as of Faz’s visit, if not since the first fight.
– Those specific frat boys kept showing up as being beaten up by AG. First for picking on Danny, then for them acting up at the party Ryan was at, then we saw them TRYING TO BREAK INTO WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS THE HOUSE OF A GIRL WHO REPORTED RYAN AND ATTACKING SAL WHEN SHE INTERVENED. Obviously Sal was fine because Sal but even so. Them being easily recruited by Blaine is not exactly a challenge to believe for me given their entire role that far had been ‘easily led stock villains for AG and Sal’.
– Blaine told us how Ryan’s friends got involved. He said he explicitly looked around for locals with a grudge against AG. If anybody fit that description it was them
– I’d hardly say every bad guy/antagonist ever was involved in that kidnapping. Clint, Mary, Leland, Raidah, and Ryan himself off the top of my head were totally uninvolved. Most people who were involved were people who had or could be reasonably expected to have, a grudge against AG because that was Blaine’s goal.
I don’t WANT Leland to come back into the plot, and fortunately the odds are low, but honestly I kinda want that budding serial killer removed from their universe with force. Maybe Clint will run into this Nice Young Man With A Budding Future from the Ivy League and try to set him up with Ruth, prompting his inevitable demise.
A couple of small comments on your post:
> It really really didn’t help that the storyline hinged on Blaine, previously established as good manipulator, acting like an unhinged lunatic
Keep in mind that in Blaine’s first appearance, he ended up in a fight with Amber (and got suplexed by Ruth). So, the idea of him acting as a ‘unhinged lunatic’ doesn’t seem to be too far out of character from things we’ve seen before.
> and Ross, whose established character is that of a self-appointed moral crusader, acting like a complete moron going along with a plan he never understood.
Ross was easily fooled by Dina (who is not exactly a good actor) when she sent him away from the college campus, and when he kidnapped Becky, he thought that “911 would come through the roof”. In other words, him being a moron and not understanding a plan is probably on par for him.
I interpreted that to be Becky speaking. Sounds a lot more like her than him. Page in question: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/defied/
I assumed it was Ross making the comment. (Not saying your interpretation is wrong, just that I had a different interpretation.)
Becky was the first one to see Amazi-girl during the chance, and she was trying to distract Ross while Amber was getting into position. Her blurting out “911 through the roof” would be counter-productive to all of that.
Even if it was Becky who made the comment, Ross was still fooled by Dina, which is still enough to suggest there is a pattern of him doing dumb things.
The tail is clearly arcing to Becky’s side. And while it’s not smart to comment on help arriving, Becky was likely surprised by the roof-thump, stressed, but also aware that Ross would know “sumthin’s uo”, ergo Becky saying something and still being hopeful.
Ross brought a longarm onto college grounds. He is a moron.
*was
1. Booster is Mike. So is Jennifer. Mike is a force of nature and cannot die.
2. Joyce’s beliefs were a defining factor throughout the Walkyverse, and it’s bit strange to see that go. That said, I don’t think that the comics treatment of Christianity is anywhere as unbalanced as that of the comment section, for example. The thing is, there are some strains of Christianity which go far beyond anything depicted in the comic. The comic is not addressing all churches, but only a subset that is being used, not unrealistically, for dramatic purposes. But the comic shows a fair range, Mary’s, Joyce’s, Jacob’s, and not all are tarred with the same brush.
3. The common thread enabling the mega coalition of bad guys was a strongly shared grudge against AmaziGirl. Ryan’s friends had been repeatedly hammered by Amazigirl and Sal as they were set up with fake addresses. ToeDad had been thwarted by a combination of actions, but it was Amazigirl who landed on his car and kicked his gun away and arguably caused the accident that allowed Becky to escape. Blain had the connections and money to pull them together and offer opportunity for payback. Without Amazigirl the coalition made no sense, but with her it did.
4. Your reactions to the characters are your own and are valid for you. Most of us keep coming back because we enjoy the characters and story.
“Booster is Mike. So is Jennifer. Mike is a force of nature and cannot die.”
Yep. Both Mike and Blaine are currently in Witness Protection. Look for Blaine to return in a real supervillain costume in a few weeks, comic-time.
….. holy shit you could be right.
“I’m Mike and so’s my wife!”
I’m so sorry, that popped in my head and I had to.
So, the Booster charge is honestly unfair. Mike has had literal decades of time with which to develop his personality; give Booster the same latitude. Depending on how you count (his first appearance in a Willis comic; his first appearance in DoA specifically), Willis has had a lot of time to add nuance to his character. Booster is wholly new, and a defining characteristic of the webcomic medium is how slowly development can occur.
Regarding religion, nothing I’ve seen in this comic is out of character for the environment in which I grew up, and my church was relatively mainstream, including the stupid kids’ show skits. I’d expect Joyce’s upbringing to be worse than mine, since my church at least had a denomination and some organizational sanction.
Nothing about the Amber/Sal or Ethan/Mike/Danny or Ruth/Billie or Marcie/Malaya plotlines have had anything to do with religion.
The supervillain plot was over the top, but it was also a natural consequence of having put a literal spandex-wearing superhero in the comic. Of course Amazi-Girl had to be confronted with a literal dark mirror. That’s how the superhero genre works, up to and including attack-the-hero-by-proxy. And they weren’t just Ryan’s friends: they were everyone who had a bone to pick with Amazi-Girl. I’m betting that a number of them filed police reports and Blaine used paid-for police to get contacts for enough of them to use as mooks.
And despite Mike having those years, the DoA version didn’t really develop much nuance until the flashback scenes, which were around 8 years in. He had some built in sympathy from his SP! development, but that conflicted in some ways with his portrayal here.
Give Booster a bit of time.
You may want to check out a real life character named Psalty the Singing Song Book, which is the character the singing Hymnal is based on and whose show traumatized my ex-evangelical girlfriend.
There is a LOT of Becky and Joyce in my girlfriend.
A few very quick points:
1. I had Becky’s hair for the longest time.
2. Fiction imitates and exaggerates life. Willis isn’t out here to write a hyper realistic webcomic; he is here to tell an entertaining fiction based in mundane real life. If any aspects of the tale seem hyperbole it is 1) his prerogative as writer and 2) a narrative technique to make the points he is making impossible to misconstrue.
Damn dude, why not question his knowledge of Transformers too while you’re at it?
This ain’t it chief. None of it is, really.
If a guy is about to say you’re important to him, pauses with dramatic ellipses, and then says it anyway, it’s ’cause he digs you.
Perpetually amused that these two have a ball labeled “capable of saying something emotionally significant” and they just pass it to the other whenever they feel like it.
🥳🥳🥳🥳
I’m a little sad that Joe didn’t keep going after panel 4, but she’s clearly (IMO) pulling back from him a bit and it’s not fair to ask him to do all the work (and vulnerability-showing) here.
Ordinarily I’d agree with you but showing vulnerability to people (qnd especially women) is something Jos sorely needs to learn to do so I wish I could be the non-existent devil on his shoulder saying “Tell her how you *really* feel.”
Meh. He’s doing well at openning up. (he’s not done obviously) But he’s smart not to give in to fishing for extra.
It’s reasonable to move boundaries slowly, so you don’t end up hanging from it dangling over a cliff. (i.e. abused)
KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS
C’mooooon I want this.
kiss kiss fall in love
Joyce breaking a vase and having to work it off honestly sounds like a DOA storyline that really could have occurred, had she been the one to get a job at Galasso’s, like maybe she somehow breaks his pizza stone.
Breaking a vase? What?
Kiss kiss fall in love is the intro song to ouran highschool hostclub about a girl who breaks an expensive vase on h3r first day at a swanky private school and has to work it off in drag for the school’s all male host club. 10/10 do reccommend
Yeah, it’s a pretty cute show from what I recall, though, I only will watch it subtitled. Vic Mignogna otherwise ruins it for me.
It was an entertaining anime, however the ending felt rushed, so did the manga for that matter. it was like they got cancelled unexpectedly and had to finish the story up in a few episodes instead of the several seasons originally planned.
*grinds Joe and Joyce action figures together while making smooching noises*
KIϟϟ KIϟϟ KIϟϟ KIϟϟ!
Paul, Gene, Ace, Peter!
But actually I’m cool with Joeyce being a friendship, but like the voice in Americana, “mmmm… I particularly enjoyed that one. Let’s see what’s next”
(Down in a steam tunnel beneath Beck…)
*I remove a padlock from a door marked DANGER! KEEP OUT!*
*I use a proprietary-pattern screwdriver to access an electrical panel with the label Property of Muzak Holdings*
*I shut off the electricity, pull off all the breakers, then disconnect several wires and snatch all the fuses from the sockets and toss them in my pocket*
*I reclose the Muzak panel and stick a sign over it that reads OUT OF ORDER TILL FURTHER NOTICE. GONE ICE FISHING*
*Then I get out of the room and close the door and replace the padlock on it*
Wagstaff, you are on your own from here on.
How long will you be gone? And also, if you really are going ice fishing, I sure hope you can make excellent sushi out of what you catch!
Relax, Wags. Stephen is just challenging you to hack the Muzak system while he’s gone… again. Let’s get started!
You have my bolt cutters.
And my axe!
Well, that is one way to hack into something.
So no ice fish sushi? Awe, man! *snaps fingers*
*puts Voxola PR-76 on a rod and flips the switch labeled “homing device”*
Is Joyce upset because she has feelings for Joe in 2 and 5?
I think Joyce is being cautious because Joe AND her church have disappointed her in the past. Joyce knows that Joe cares more than he lets on, both about things in general and about her in specific — or maybe it would be more accurate to say, Joyce WANTS TO BELIEVE that Joe cares. And I think that’s important, because in a way it really is one last little act of faith for her. By now Joe has demonstrated repeatedly that he isn’t willing or able to honor Joyce’s faith in him. Her behavior is that of a person who’s been burned multiple times refusing to hold out hope again.
It’s an interesting parallel, because both the Church and Joe have hurt Joyce a lot recently despite her trying to see the best in them. I think the biggest difference is that with Joe, the hurt came first, right up front, so the Good Times can only be in the future.
Exactly. Joe’s growing from a baseline disappointment. From there he has managed to *not* be a disappointment on multiple occasions. Everytime? no. But Joe has had plenty more deliveries on good faith than the church.
The last time Joyce wanted to talk feelings with Joe, he ran off with Malaya to avoid the conversation. I think she’s dragging her feet on trusting again.
Yeah that’s the important part of what’s stonewalling her. Joyce has tried more than once to open up to Joe and he’s bailed, so right now when she’s emotionally frustrated she can’t really rely on him because for all she knows this is just a prelude for him to suddenly go “oh wait feelings are stupid lmao boobies” and go back to status quo.
He also ran away from feelings that time she put together that she wasn’t always a “zero-minus” on his list.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/chubby/
To be fair, Joyce was vulnerable there, but what Joe ran from was his vulnerability, not Joyce’s. “What was I, before I hurt you?”
THESE GLASSES ARE NOT A PART OF ME… But these boots WERE made for walking!
“I wear the glasses, they do not wear me.”
They both know how he feels about her. They’ve kind of almost talked about it. Almost.
Poor Amber. Having to deal with this in her dorm. Completely forgotten about
It’s really gonna suck when they just make out on her bed.
This will probably be disproven, but I like to imagine thatAber took her laptop and left.
Amber took her laptop and started making notes.
Fixed that for you.
Personally I think she’s still debating the merits of phone vs laptop to herself. She has no idea why they’re there still, and by now she’s past caring.
I wonder if she just has some headphones she can wear. In either case, she’s pretty good at tuning people out.
I bet she’s still debating whether she likes her phone or her laptop better, so caught up in the decision that she stopped paying attention to them.
Unfortunately, Joyce, the glasses are indeed a part of you, the layer where the glasses were drawn has already been merged. (I’m a writer, not an artist so I doubt that’s how it works, but it sounded funny in my head)
That’s more or less how it works. I mean even if they are on a different level for the drawing itself, the act of turning it to a png or jpg definitely flattened the image. Granted that same argument could be used to say she is also part of the background too, but the glasses are definitely merged with her.
Yeah, that’s basically how layers work, like Yotomoe said. Now, if I could just figure out how Willis does those little lighter bits near the outlines (the ones that give it a sort of relief-ish look up close), we could get up to some real mischief.
Ooooh I had been assuming it was only Joe who was avoiding being vulnerable. This is good shit.
Joyce better be careful
denying parts of yourself is how they become shadow boss fights
This metaphor seems more attune to a Dark Link fight but when I hear “Shadow Boss” I immediately think of Jimmy Lee from Double Dragon.
I think it’s a Persona (4?) reference.
Joyce and a yellow-eyed, sinister version of herself who exaggerates certain personality traits? Never heard of the like.
Anti-Joyce had blue eyes though and there wasn’t an X to be found in her name
Who had kids: Jordan, John, or Jocelyn?
Wow now I REALLY want to hear that pre-fight speech from shadow Joyce.
Goddammit, KISS! I can’t want Lumity to happen anymore, let me cross this one off my list!
What’s Lumity?
Something to do with some gay kids in a show about owls, I think. Lots of nice LGBTQ+ content in the cartoon shows, these days.
They’re adorable and they deserve all the happiness
A ship, recently become canon, between two female characters (the main character and her crush)in the Disney cartoon series “The Owl House.
Also said crush is voiced by Mae Whitman, aka Katara.
It’s a popular ship between the main character and her former rival from the Owl House which is a fun and creative and generally good show where a girl goes to the demon realm and learns to be a witch
Ok so I’m reading this as Joyce is still not entirely sure of how Joe feels about her so shes comfortable looking at him in the eyes and straight out asking him.
One of the things I like about Joyce is she directly asks questions of Joe, she doesn’t try to beat around the bush she comes out with the question.
Joe tells Joyce that she knows she means something, something special and now that Joyce has that confirmation shes a little unsure of herself.
Repeating the same line with emphasis on the glasses but now a little bashful and looking away.
Which gives Joe a bit more confidence to move from the big, emotional talk (which hes not comfortable with) to the smooth, almost flirting talk he excels at
Joyce probably doesn’t realise it but its been a masterclass from her the last few strips in making Joe fall big time for her
Shes been firing up Joe’s positive, protective masculinity side and Joe is responding accordingly but he doesn’t know hes putty in her hands
It’s a really nice dance to watch play out because of the mutual respect they have for each other
AAAAAHHHHH MY HEART FOR JOE
PLEASE WERE I WANNA READ THE NEXT FEW PAGES IN ONE SITTING AAAAAA
I absolutely spent the cash for Patreon.
Joe? A total sweetheart who actually CARES about someone? Say it ain’t so!
I kinda get where Joyce is coming from here though. There does seem to be a lot of mockery of her upbringing and while that may be somewhat justified, it’s not her fault and I imagine it wears her down.
(To be clear, I am actually very happy to see this side of Joe, it makes me warm and fuzzy.)
He’s previously been like this about her, just, not usually with her present. Like I am thinking back on when he talks up Joyce to Jacob in a big way.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/02-to-remind-you-of-my-love/situation/
Well it’s now August 2021 and in 31 days it will be the 20th anniversary of my demise and resurrection. Willis’ army of unkillable badass once again looks for evil that can be faced by a single old man with a cane. Seriously, I’m here to take over the world one Golden Corral buffet at a time.
Make that 29 days, mistake in calculations there. Still not-dead.
I’ll must enter your site for details but, hey, congrats.
He is risen indeed
Idk is this going too well? Is it too delicious? is there Damning Willis in the offing this week/month?
I can’t tell……
When I was in college I looked sadly at my phone many times, and it never once caused this amount of drama
Little did they know, it was but the first annexation of Joyce, Empress of all plastic.
Ethan just never was the same after That incident.
AHHHH the pacing of the dialogue between panels 3 & 4 oh my goodness :sobbing:
Joe is still trying to figure out how to act around Amber, who is now his step-sister, after having rated her (for good or bad) on his morally indefensible ‘Do List’, and now he has to deal with being confronted by another young woman from that same list who is in the depths of an existential crisis.
Sucks to be him, yeah.
But small potatoes in comparison to the two young women presently dealing with untreated complex PTSD and survivors guilt.
Sad to see Joyce still trying to deny her glasses, nice to see Joe finally asking her about whatever is making her sad and slowly admit she’s important for him. This is reality a cute strip, but I can’t avoid imagining Amber stop to looks to her smartphone and watching them really amazed. That would be so funny!
Joyce: There is no0 heaven
Joe: “Joyce you were silly for believing in Heaven… You were real”
Joyce: “Why do you care?”
Joe: “i have no choice. All I am is predestined”
Joyce: ?
Joe: “You and you alone are the central narrative character, silly
??
“…Made by the creator of our Universe”
???
“All meaning I ever had, will ever be and everyone we ever met is all derived from you. Without you, we cease to mean anything”
All Characters rush in Joyce room, giving Amber her a panic attack
“protect the Author insert From dissolution, protect the Joyce from the Soggies”
End of Comic
Embrace it, Joyce.
Nice dodge, Joe. We can’t let the neighbours know we C-A-R-E
NOW K I S S !
This might get me thrown in the shipping dungeon, but I think I ship it. Joyce and Joe both have serious problems with relationships that they need to work out, but I feel like given enough time and separate character development, they could be a positive influence on one another and sort of… balance each other out? Joe needs to work on the emotional attachment and commitment side of things, while Joyce needs to overcome her fear and shame of sex. I can relate to Joyce’s issues, and I think she is going to need someone more sex-positive for a partner to get over the shame and fear. Someone that is struggling with their own insecurity/shame/fear might only exacerbate the problem by increasing the anxiety/tension instead of alleviating it.
Honestly, I also really hope the marriage between Joe’s dad and Amber’s mom works out in the long run. Amber’s mom deserves to be happy, and Joe’s dad seems like he’s not a genuinely bad dude like Blaine. He just has commitment issues that drive him to cheating, which is a problem that *can* be worked through. (I know of a couple that did.)
Very well said! 🙂
I’m sure Richard’s issues could be worked through – but he’s shown no sign of even acknowledging that they need to be. Last we checked he was still infatuated and didn’t feel like cheating, so there was no need for concern.
Nah, that’s going to blow up eventually and probably be key to Joe’s development.
As for Joe himself, it’s important to remember that his big issue is more that he’s afraid he’s doomed to be like his dad and thus will cheat on and hurt anyone he lets get close to him. It’s not quite as simple as the usual lack of commitment and emotional attachment.
Dude this is one of the most popular ships in the comments, you’re fine, no one’s gonna get mad at this take
JoJo is just that one meme where it’s a picture of everyone beating each other up and below it is one of a pristine roundtable discussion.
Dumbing of Age Book 11: You’ve Recently Annexed An Amount of Plastic
Ehh, I still like SEX SEX SEXY C*CKS*CK*NG SEXY SEX
Ok. A series of recommended reading.
https://kristindumez.com/books/jesus-and-john-wayne/
https://uncpress.org/book/9781469661179/white-evangelical-racism/
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/White-Too-Long/Robert-P-Jones/9781982122874
If you don’t like the mirror that DYW is holding up, then don’t look.
If you see the truth, then repent and make amends.
The Christians he’s showing are real Christians and not strawmen. I’d love to be able declare they aren’t but No True Scotsman is a weak argument.
And btw, Catholics (like me), Mormons, mainline Protestants can and are often just as bad. Buddhists are busy committing genocide, as are the atheists is China. Your flag decal, cross etc won’t get you into heaven.
The chinese ‘atheists’ have substituted religious doctrine for state ideological doctrine. The genocide has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with control, power, land resources and is decorated in state doctrine dressed as “post-communism” if any ‘ism’ is required to label it.
I think the point is less ‘they do this because of atheism’ and more ‘People of every religious belief and lack thereof do terrible things so it’s pointless to say that it’s unrealistic to have X religion and do Y horrible thing’.
…aaand… the “buddhists” commiting genocide in Myanmar are a “communist” military dictatorship, so.. at the very least would be ‘non-practicing’. Unless you were talking about some other genocidal ‘buddhists’? Do you have a specific example you meant?
Nowhere in your link does it say the dictatorship in Myanmar is a communist one.
Guessing this is for that asshole with the “””criticism of religion’s portrayal””” up above?
He can’t help but care
AWW THIS IS ADORABLE
I have little doubt Amber is currently thinking “COULD Y’ALL DO THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE?!?”
I love the growing dynamic these two are adamant they don’t have.
I still don’t really get why Joyce is *always* wearing the glasses since she only needs them for seeing distances – everything else she can see just fine. I know she said it’s to “get used” to them but, if her vision is fine when things are near, wouldn’t that just make them uncomfortable?
as someone who wears glasses to see distances, honestly, not wearing my glasses gives me a headache. i’m not sure her eyesight is as bad as mine, since it seems to have not been an issue until she went to a large college where she’s really far away from the professor, but i wouldnt be able to do things like drive or watch tv from the couch without mine on.
My husband only needs his glasses for distances too, but he wears them 100% of the time because like Smooti already said, he gets headaches if he doesn’t. You actually get eye strain from squinting and trying to focus on stuff you can’t see, so people who need glasses often wear them all the time.
Tell me you don’t wear glasses for distance without telling me you don’t wear glasses for distance.
Most people I’ve known who wear glasses for distance didn’t wear them all the time – mostly just wore them for driving or if they were unlucky enough to have to sit at the back of the really big lecture halls.
I wear glasses for distances.
Distances greater than about a foot, at this point.
what annoys me is the glasses dont look natural onjoyce like lucy’s or billies or ruth’s …
I’m loving this development in their relationship. It’s interesting to watch them both question themselves.