If being an asshole was punishable by death, our leaders would never be where they are today. Really is a shame that being an asshole isn’t punishable by death.
19.8% would die immediately after, and the remaining .2% would be vegetarian loners who’d get by off the technicality that they can’t be bothered to interact with any other living creatures.
After which I can only assume that, for the continued survival of the human race, automated insemination/surrogacy banks and AI teachers will be introduced. Or we just give up and call it a day.. though I guess that’s a sentiment we’re living by already, so the only real gain from this process would be that we wouldn’t have to interact with people or deal with BS politics anymore.
I’m reminded of the Kino’s Journey story where a country that was convinced they were all really nice people who’d want to help everyone who needed it made themselves all mind-readers so that they’d be able to offer assistance even to those who couldn’t speak up to request it. Turns out everyone had the occasional assholeish thought and without the filter of speech, none of them could stand each other, so they basically lived like this with the isolation and automation.
Man, I haven’t thought of Kino’s Journey in a good long while (though I’ve watched both anime adaptations). Great anime (and definitely among the very best for those with an episode-by-episode narrative format), and a solid lead character.
In fact, there’s not really much competition at all for the niche it fills- Girls’ Last Tour is the only one that comes to mind and, while it’s good (it may be one to try, for those who like Kino), it’s a bit more slice-of-life/atmospheric in its vibe, whereas Kino is all about directly and intimately interacting with various people.
I can recall a couple more that have a self-contained episodic style, but they’re a bit more eccentric/over-the-top, and thus less relatable from a character/story-driven perspective. Or are ones which completely [very rare exceptions aside] avoid character or narrative growth, like Detective Conan.
I think I may need to rewatch Kino at some point.. More than that, I’d absolutely love to see something like that made into a long-running show, if the quality can be maintained well enough.
They’ve actually started releasing a manga version of it! And there’s fan translations of the light novels available (still bitter the official translations stopped at the first volume).
I try to avoid light novels on the whole, as I either get aggravated with the fanfic level of writing skill of the original author, or the elementary-school level writing skill of the associated translator. :S
On the other hand, with Manga being so much less demanding on scene framing, those are always an appetizing thing to go after [though some of those youtube “translations” will easily drive you to Lovecraftian-level madness]. Seems like there’s even two different manga for it?
“There are currently two ongoing Kino’s Journey manga: one by Gou, and one by Iruka Shiomiya. They were both released in 2017 and follow random chapters of the Kino’s Journey -the Beautiful World- novel series.”
Guess I’ll rewatch the anime and then hit the manga. Thanks for the heads up! ^.^
Side-note, even though I avoid light novels myself, my high level of anime/manga interest means I easily hear about the shockingly high number of untranslated, highly respected works out there (some with really cool premises). I’m both appreciative of that fact, but also irked to come across a great concept and realize that there’s no manga translation and the LN translation is.. well, to my usual expectations.
Still better than dropped translations, though- totally agree with you on that being a major frustration. I’ve even had manga translations drop on enjoyable manga after around 70 chapters before, while the manga continues on into 400+. Official translations seem to be the worst about dropping manga, weirdly, and the fact that they were at any point officially translated can inhibit future fan translations.
Nevermind that official manga translations [most especially among app-based translation/hosting services] are all-too-often barely above bottom-of-the-barrel youtube level, and well below the average for fan translations. -.-;
Ah, oops- my first paragraph is intended to state that those aspects are all too common to the medium, not that they’re universal for it. Sorry about any misleading phrasing there.
I’ve gotten into light novels, but mostly for shows I’ve already seen, like Classroom of the Elite, The Rising of the Shield Hero, and Restaurant to Another World. Some of it I think is how readable they are, since The Saga of Tanya the Evil is an interesting show, but I could NOT get through the “light” novel 1. bc I already barely process political dramas that well and 2. the text was just too small for me to read easily. (I have a similar problem with the copy of Good Omens I have, to be fair–it’s definitely funny, but the lack of chapter breaks other than the main three(?) makes it draining, like a big infodump)
iirc, they cover different things, and the second one threw you in with a mild expectation of familarity with the setting? So I think the original one was the better one to start with (but again, it’s been a while). Though, it’s worth noting that the original is dated on graphics and dates to before America started taking dubbing even remotely seriously.
So.. if you’re watching the dubbed version, expect weak/sporadic quality for the voice acting and weak animation both. If that’s not a turn-off (and taking a quick look at the dubbing, it really is for me, yeesh), I’d say “more Kino is better”.
I guess, the best approach would be to watch through the first episode of the first anime, see if you’re okay with it. If not, move to the next series?
Well, all of slapstick, insult comedy, blue comedy, character comedy, and the majority of sitcoms and British humor, perhaps. Black comedy and satire’d be heavily cut, as well. On the other hand, there are plenty of forms of comedy that don’t involve assholery- absurdism, parody, wordplay and other quips/witticisms, improv, and anti-humor come readily to mind.
Wait, if comedy does die, would it automatically become black comedy? Or anti-humor? Or both? As such, is it even possible for comedy to die, so long as people still have any recollection of its existence? :mulls:
He’s nowhere near acting like Mike. Mike would do this shit on purpose for a giggle, and only stop because he figures he’s hit the point where they won’t put up with it any more. Y’know, because then he doesn’t get to fuck with them for fun again.
And here I thought we’d already sunk the last of the Titanic references half a decade back. But once more you open the door, and you’re here with the meme, and the meme will go on and on.
Ah here that’s shovel you were looking for Wilcox. I admire your tenacity. Some people would know when to quit digging, but not you. Let’s hope you find what you’re looking for down there.
I mean, sure- at this rate, he’ll reach china.. after which he’ll then immediately contract an undiscovered strain of societal coronavirus, and savage society simply by breathing.
Okay, so that’ll give us Plague, and we’ve already had Death.. Mike atrophying away can be considered associative to Famine.. so now all we need is Ethan to become the embodiment of War, and we’ve got all the modern horsemen avatars embodied. >.>
Actually, this comic has a lot of “Wiki Warriors” now that I think about it. Dorothy, Walky, and Ethan were all explicitly mentioned as being obsessive over wiki-correcting, as I recall. And maybe Amber as well? Guess there’s enough there for a spin-off. Not.. not entirely sure I’d want to read it, though. 😛
I don’t really recall anyone but Ethan and maybe Amber being wiki-obssed in the original universe, though?
Which kinda makes sense, given that Dorothy and Walky are obsessed specifically over Dexter & Monkey Master [oh, and Carla for Ultra Car, now that I think about it- I imagine she also hit the wiki hard, given her similar level of obsession over her respective show], which obviously didn’t exist in the original universe.
Transformers, of course, are universal. Though in this universe, any potential “Foodformers” would have to worry about copyright infringement when making a Cheesebot (as The Cheese is also a D&MM character), so I guess there’s that potential difference! 😛
Yeah it’s kinda funny JJ loves the original trilogy so much he kinda ruined them by making Vader’s sacrifice pointless. Just goes to show the inmates shouldn’t run the asylum.
Take a bad boy make him dig five feet.
The dirt and shovels will give us the beat.
Okay you got to find somethin’ you never found before.
If not, we’ll just have to dig some more.
Danny I think apologizing and shutting up is the best idea here. Not only have you ruined any chance you had at confessing your feelings to Ethan, but you’ve quite possibly damaged your friendship with him.
Danny came to Ethan to confess his feelings while his friend is possibly DYING. Then says he doesn’t care about Ethan’s grief, the dying friend, and wants said friend to stay comatose.
AITA? I (M 18) told my crush (M 18) that his crush (M 18) who’s in a coma shouldn’t wake up because hurting my feelings is worse than destroying Alderaan?
“I (17 almost 18, f) asked my mother (?, f) to let me out of the tower for my birthday, so I could finally find out what’s with all the lanterns. She was terribly upset and reminded me she only wants to keep me safe. AITA?”
Someone I know who follows r/aita more than that would be beneficial for my mental wellbeing has summurized it as “men who ask if they are the asshole for being assholes, and women who ask if they are the asshole for not running immediatly from what is clearly serial killer shit”.
Painting with broad strokes and with notable exceptions, obviously, but possibly catching a trend.
Also the odd parent who wants to know if the punishment they chose for their kid was fair (leans toward assholes, but there was one where the kid had deliberately cut up a hand-sewn wedding dress).
And a sprinkling of (mostly) mothers who describe their (mostly) mothers-in-law trying to shove them out and take over as momgrand of their sonhusband’s child….and wonder whether they’re just being oversensitive about it. (Neeeever trust somebody who says “my baby” of somebody else’s baby. Even if once upon a time you or your SO were their baby.)
There are three major problems with that subreddit.
1. Were only getting one side of the story and people leave out information to make themselves look better.
2. Actual assholes very rarely listen when called out, making asking basically pointless.
3. A large chunk of the stories are very obviously made up. My ex wife tried to stab me with a kitchen knife so I twisted her arm to restrain her, now her family says I was too rough. AITA?
Probably true all of them, but for point 1 it amazes me how many of the stories where despite of it being one-sided, the writer fundamentally fails to make themselves look good in any way.
Right? The NTA ones are almost always so used to these unreasonable people they’re shocked when everyone reads it and tells them to please, run away NOW (because it’s so frequently that level of ‘oh dear lord no’,) but the YTA ones? There are ones where you KNOW they’re excluding a lot and it STILL comes off terrible. Or the ‘I know the title sounds bad, but hear me out.’
That said I frequently read it as half-‘here’s my take if it’s real’, half elaborate fiction exercises.
@regalli: Yeah, I only see the AITA that pop-up on Willis’s or Jeph Jacques’s twitters, and nearly all of the NTA ones are “JFC, why are you still on the same CONTINENT as this person, let alone in a relationship with them? Run away, fast, far, and YESTERDAY.”
@Regalli: though I have seen a few cases where the title honestly does sound worse than it is; one that comes to mind was a title that was something like “Is it bad I beat my niece?” and context was in a foot race because she was being a poor winner.
More than half of them, actually. It’s just that the threads that get the most attention are usually ones where there’s a serious debate over who was right or where none of the people reading it can *believe* that the OP thinks they weren’t an asshole.
C’mon Danny. He’s been friends with Mike since middle school.
That’d be like if someone said Joe was in a coma and should stay that way because he can be a jerk sometimes too.
Sort of. They’ve known each other since middle school and spend a lot of time together, but friends? 5 or 6 years and Ethan’s maybe 50% sure Mike’s a friend. That’s not a real friendship. Ethan’s emotionally attached, but that’s because Mike is a manipulative bastard. Don’t think “friends” think “abusive relationship”.
Mike hasn’t been a jerk sometimes, that’s all he’s been and worse. He spent those years “prodding Amber’s bear” so she’d be a timebomb for use against Blaine. Making her trauma and mental illness worse. Despite my problems with Joe, Mike’s light-years beyond him.
Now, Danny’s still being a jerk here. Even if he’s basically right about Mike, this is the wrong way and the wrong time. His motives are suspect as well.
This also neglects Mike’s realization during that fight how much like Blaine his rationales were. I really do want to see how that plays out.
I believe that was an accurate summation of the situation. I do think there is more to Mike than just being a jerk, but I agree that is all he allows others to see of him. Ethan and Amber have been around him enough to suspect the deeper depths, but Danny hasn’t. He just sees a guy who is mean to everyone and who takes advantage of other people’s weak points. He also knows that Mike has some weird hold over Ethan which contributes to his negative feelings both because he probably sees Mike as an abusive friend and subconscious jealousy.
All of this comes together so that Danny believes that it would be better for Mike to not be around (for good and bad reasons). That being said, he should not have said any of that out loud. The first statement was a slip-up, admittedly, but he doubled down when confronted. He should have admitted that he didn’t mean to say that and he just doesn’t like Mike, then apologized and tried to move on with comforting Ethan, which is what he needs right now.
My point is that I agree with Danny here – Mike’s been worse than Ethan and Amber see. Or at least Ethan will admit. Mike is a toxic and abusive friend. Ethan isn’t seeing deeper depths, he’s blind to the abuse.
I do agree that Danny’s doing this extremely badly.
Danny’s not WRONG about anything here, really. All he’s seen of Mike is Mike being horrible to him and to people that he likes. Probably all he’s heard about Mike is more of the same. So I don’t think he’s particularly out of line for feeling this way, sure.
But you DO NOT air that thought at this moment, to someone in Ethan’s position. To someone who doesn’t know Mike? Sure, vent. At some hypothetical future where Mike’s back and okay and continuing to be a jerk? Yeah, it’s generally a good idea to point out missing stairs in social groups. But in the damn hospital, to Ethan’s face? SON, NO.
I don’t think he actively tried to set out and Dan it up here, it’s just that it came out of his mouth and those feelings are pouring forth.
No one really has any positive stories about Mike except for now, and Danny doesn’t really know how to process that. I also think he’s jealous but who knows how much that influences things.
I agree. It’s just the chorus of “Danny’s worse than Mike ever was” and “Mike was a jerk sometimes” or the speculation about how Ethan and Amber have seen his deeper depths and Danny just doesn’t understand.
Danny’s being a jerk here, but Mike’s been toxic for years.
Agreed. The fact that he had that realization explicitly makes me not want him to die, because it might actually stick. And even if the two of them aren’t privy to Mike’s thoughts in that moment that we are, it was at least a possible indication he was going to change and so Ethan’s defense is relevant.
It’s the leading it with ‘would him staying comatose really be so bad?’ that really torpedoes any point he might be trying to get across. And the fact that he almost certainly DOESN’T know, say, how intentionally hurting Amber to worsen her mental illness is. Or some of the ‘oh holy FUCK this child worries me’ bits from his flashbacks, like the football player and claiming he put Blaine and Amber in the car ride of doom together to see what happened (to Blaine, so I favor ‘he was lying to cover how his good intentions hurt Amber by pretending he didn’t have them’, but there is a possibility he wasn’t.)
Also I don’t think we can overstate how wrong place and time it is because Mike’s parents are on the other side of that door and the laws of narrative convention that dictate their lives mean I give it a 40% chance they walk out to hear Danny saying shit. 60% if he continues on this path and doesn’t try to tell Ethan his feelings.
Absolutely. Danny doesn’t have all the information to realize how bad Mike is – mostly just what he’s heard from Ethan and Amber and a bit of his own observation.
And I am definitely interested in seeing how Mike’s realization changes him.
Until Mike wakes up I don’t think there ever would be a good time to bring it up.
Further strips will clarify where Danny is coming from, if this is just a jealous tirade, if he genuinely thinks Mike has been an abusive presence in Amber and Ethan’s lives, or if it’s a mixture of both.
I think the S.S. Siecox is anchored for now, though.
He’s commented on the abusive presence before, if not exactly in those words. I was actually less sympathetic to Danny until I went back and read his bit with Mike at the birthday party.
Danny, I know that you’re in a comic where people usually do end up making uncomfortable but valid moral points, but please don’t mistake saying things with making one.
The sad thing is, Danny’s … not wrong. Until Mike’s moment of sacrifice did anyone here really think he was anything but a colossal jerk? Yes, Mike did a good thing. No, that shouldn’t erase all the times he’s hurt other people prior to that point.
Although I will concede that THIS might not be the time or place to go there, Danno. Sheesh.
I was operating under the assumption Dan did not now about how Mike ended up getting thrown off the roof. And even then, I thought that was harsh. This is something I would reserve for Ryan the Rapist or something.
Yeah, Danny’s being harsh, but Mike did treat characters in a really shitty way, him included, and I say that as someone who gives Mike more benefit of the doubt in the past that a lot of the comment section often did.
To Ethan, he’s a jerk who has done good things, and had a lot of shared experiences. He’s seen plenty of Mike’s duality.
But, to a lot of the cast, they just kinda get treated like dogshit by Mike on a regular basis and rarely to never see any benefit of that. To them, yeah, this is harsh, but it’s also a “dude’s a prick?” scenario.
Does that make what Danny is doing any less selfish and entitled? If you genuinely hate someone and wish them harm (like staying in a coma forever) maybe you shouldn’t go to visit them in the hospital then say you wish them dead.
Because Dan has done that. He’s so entitled to his romantic partners that he never thought this is NOT the place to make a romantic gesture. He clearly doesn’t care about Ethan’s feelings.
I don’t see Ethan as having a clearer more dualistic view of Mike than the other character’s who’ve only seen him treat people like dogshit. I see Ethan more as if in an abusive relationship with everyone else seeing the screaming red flags he’s blind to.
Even Amber, who’s known Mike as long, has written him off and only tolerates him for Ethan’s sake.
There’s no real reason to be there then. You show up to the hostpital either because you care about Mike or you care about Ethan. Clearly Danny doesn’t care about either. Danny isn’t hurting Mike right now. He’s hurting Ethan, and continues to just make it worse
Doesn’t erase them. Still is a far cry from ‘Is so profoundly terrible you’re hoping he stays in a coma after taking a massive head/spine injury.’
Because seriously, even if Danny’s not fully getting that this can be read as wishing Mike dead… given the Darth Vader comparison, it reads even more like he’s maybe wishing Mike dead. And uh. Don’t do that around that person’s best friend, who was just at his bedside before leaving to give his parents time to be alone with their son and grieve. (Even if Mike recovers, barring a time skip of actual years it is… EXTREMELY unlikely he returns to campus as a student in the context of this strip. And his life will probably be permanently impacted by this, because that is minimum a traumatic brain injury.)
When is the right time for it though. Like this is one of those conversations where the subject matter is so awkward there never really is a good time to bring it up. So when? After Mike potentially dies. When Mike potentially wakes up, to his face? After some sort of undetermined but universally agreed socially acceptable time no one knows? Whenever Danny brings this up he’ll seem like a dick even though he’s right about what he’s saying.
Some conversations just don’t need to be had. This is one Danny could have with Joe or Dorothy, two people who know him well enough to understand what point he’s trying to make, and why he feels that way. Ethan is not the person he ever needs to make this point to, not now. Mike is his friend, and has been his friend for years. Mike isn’t a very nice person, but Ethan is fond of him, for a lot of reasons. And Ethan is in a very delicate state of mind right now. Both his childhood friends and some of his new friends have just undergone a traumatic event, that he could not help them with, and that’s painful.
Danny’s seeing this as his “moment of truth” is lacking in empathy, and completely self-centered. His empathy doesn’t have to be for Mike; he doesn’t like Mike, that’s fine. But he supposedly cares for Ethan, and Ethan is hurting right now. This is not the time to say “well, actually you shouldn’t care about this, and here’s why -” You ask if he would like anything from you (walk with him back to campus, get his notes from his professors, play a game with him, or just leave him alone) and deal with your feelings with an appropriate person.
Not every feeling needs to be broadcast. Some things you keep to yourself.
Like, if it gets to that point the adult thing to do is walk away from the situation, not have the resentful blow up no one’s going to listen to anyway. As much as it sucks, Danny is not in a position to convince Ethan of jack skippity, much less that one of the few relatively positive influences in his life is more toxic than the all others (like his mother? or Amber and her family?). At some point you gotta realize you gotta do you, and that may mean you do you over there away from the cute sweet guy and the raging tornado of shit surrounding him.
Of course comic title drop they’re all barely adults etc. etc.
Danny basically is every bit as romantically toxic as Joe. We’ve seen it with Dorothy, Amber, and now Ethan. Danny doesn’t care about what his partners want as long as he can support them in what HE feels is romantic.
He came here to confess his feelings, not be there for someone in horrifying emotional pain. Because he doesn’t give a crap about Mike.
I gotta say, with Amber the toxic one was not Danny Boy.
I mean, that breakup was because Danny was talking to Sal and feeling worried that Amazi-girl was gonna get Amber killed (While at the same time not knowing that Amazi-girl isn’t a mask but an alter).
This, this this this, what I was trying to get at but better, thank you. Danny does have some real reasons to dislike Mike and his treatment of Ethan and Amber, but that’s an entirely different conversation at an entirely different time that does not involve the guy possibly dying and Danny effectively saying ‘yeah, and?’ This conversation he’s having now? No, not involving them, ever.
I mean even ignoring the absolute ‘holy shit dude are you hearing yourself’ this is putting more shit on the plate of a more-impacted party. Ring theory of grief and support, people.
I’d recommend an ‘I really think the way your childhood friend treats you on the whole is pretty terrible’ be reserved for, minimum, AFTER the dude’s out of a coma and started acting like an asshole again. Because Danny doesn’t need to have that talk with Mike, because he already DID at the party. And new ground with Ethan or Amber isn’t ‘he’s an asshole to everyone,’ it’s ‘he’s an asshole to you guys in particular and I think you deserve better.’ (If Mike starts making actual efforts to change Danny’s perfectly allowed to go ‘good for you, but the bridge for me is already burned’ and not be an asshole for saying that much.)
If Mike dies? You’re allowed to say ‘I didn’t have a good relationship with him, but it’s still a shock to me so I can only imagine how much it must be hurting you’ and come off blunt but still decent.
There’s no universe where you tell a grieving friend ‘I’m glad the person you’re mourning is dead’ to their face and maintain that friendship, because that is an objectively awful thing to say that also dismisses their feelings. ‘I wouldn’t mind if he stays in a coma’ is just barely a step removed from that, and that step is dependent on how much Danny actually knows about real comas and TBIs relative to fictional representation and misinformation.
Honestly even though this is absolutely the worst possible time for this conversation I’m still glad Danny said it. Trying to be tactful is the reason they never went through with their feeling in the first place. This needs to be said so they can both move on, because I think they are both the types that wouldl never bring this up again because they are so aware of other people’s feelings over their own. Danny’s resentment of Mike is something that would just fester if they ever actually started a relationship and in the long run that would be bad for both of them.
Just get this over with now. Maybe they were just never meant to be more than friends. Maybe not even friends depending on how Ethan reacts to this.
Yeah, see, I can’t respect Danny for bringing this up because it’s not really a conversation or actually at all discussing his issues with Mike and his treatment of Ethan and Amber.
It’s ‘I hope Mike doesn’t wake up from a coma.’ It’s ‘would it really be so bad if Mike dies?’ That’s a TERRIBLE thing to say about an 18-year-old (it’s a terrible thing to say about anyone, but I can at least get it when you’ve got reason to believe the person is so set in their ways there’s no hope of improvement – Amber thinking that about Blaine would be dark but understandable. Mike’s never killed someone and has not to our knowledge engaged in partner abuse, and while the situation with the football player was disturbing I’m HOPING it was him buddying up to the guy to get evidence of something that was already ongoing.) Even with someone who had so thoroughly been a net negative on the world, the basic line of decency is to not go to a grieving loved one and say it. And the way he’s doubling down makes it quite clear he’s not considering or caring about Ethan’s feelings on the matter.
So yeah, it would be bad if he hadn’t brought it up before starting a relationship, because it’s a nice, early alert system to Ethan that Danny can be a complete ASSHOLE to his romantic interests when he doesn’t think they’re feeling the things they should be. (Again, this was how Danny/Dorothy fell apart, and there were elements of it in Danny/AmbG mixed in with the ‘Sal is completely evil’ and ‘not realizing this is a situation involving alters’.)
Seriously, if Ethan said this to Danny about Joe, in the exact same situation, would you think it’s justified? Because I’m pretty sure they’ve had roughly equivalent interactions and Joe is also a major asshole, so it’d be the same circumstances. (Mike did have the jealousy plot, but he probably had ulterior motives to start with even before putting it aside, and to my knowledge Danny doesn’t know. It can’t be resentment based off that, because Danny doesn’t know.)
These are all incredibly fair and valid points and part of the reason I’m glad this happened now instead of like three months from now or something when Mike’s either dead or alive and doing whatever a Mike post this arc would do. I don’t think it’s justified or appropriate, but a lot of characters, a lot of likable characters do shit unjustified or inappropriate especially when it comes to attraction and relationships. Like the whole Joyce x Jacob fake girlfriend bullshit or how Billie x Ruth even started. Hell Walky was grinding with the girl who stabbed his sister in the hand and still tried to flirt with his ex the same day that girl saved his life! So Danny being a low key asshole here is par for the course to me.
But again fair. I’d even say you’re in the right here. I’m just glad this happened in the first place.
More ‘highkey asshole’, in my mind. Like I said you can totally have a talk about ‘I know you care about Mike but seriously *that thing he just did/you just mentioned he did years ago* sounds horrifying, he does/did things like that a lot, I kind of feel like you should unpack that with someone’ when you’re not thirty feet from his hospital room, and without going so far as to wish Mike dead as your opener and then imply Ethan shouldn’t have any emotions about his potential death. Or if Mike was making a genuine effort to change, ‘I’m glad you are but I still don’t forgive you.’
I’m still sympathetic to Danny, but he is veeeery much not being a good egg right now.
I think it’s possible to say (at a much later date, when Ethan has had more time to process things) that Mike wasn’t a very good or supportive friend WITHOUT saying ‘I hope he never wakes up from his coma’ while Ethan is still going through a vodka cocktail of emotions (grief, shock, fear, etc)
I think partly being ADHD myself and prone to saying stupid fucking shit, this exchange between Danny and Ethan is somewhat relatable, but it does come down to Danny not knowing Mike except for all the shitty things he has done, and Ethan having a much longer and, indeed, now confusingly deep history with Mike. As well, he is projecting his own guilt and self loathing for having shut Mike out just before the incident onto others.
So, I don’t see Ethan and Danny making out after this. But maybe they do. But yeah Danny is absolutely blowing this one and not respecting Ethan’s emotional state, when Ethan could honestly really use someone like Danny to listen and support him right now.
Definitely not the right time. Danny knows that Mike is (in some way) an important person to Ethan. Maybe you could write his first blurt off as word vomit, but DOUBLING DOWN on the statement, while Ethan is STILL reeling from 1) being kidnapped, 2) watching a man die and 3) possibly losing one of his best friends??
It’s like . . . if Danny had been told that someone had glued legos to Mike’s floor so either he had to sleep in shoes or he’d step on a lego every morning and Danny had said the lego-gluer was justified, that’d be one thing. Bringing this up about someone in a coma is another matter entirely.
No! He’s not got a point. This was in response to Ethan saying “They’re not sure if he will [wake up] for a while.” Remaining in a coma and nearly dying is in no way, shape, or form proportionate retribution for being a jerk. At all.
Also, Danny’s just accidentally sabotaged Mike’s original plan to get him and Ethan together (though he’d seemed to develop feelings for Ethan and had second thoughts by then).
Mike was a dick and probably did a lot of actual damage to Amber at the very least by aggravating her psychological issues.
But that’s not Ethan’s fault and so Danny is being a dick to him. Mike’s feelings aren’t relevant here because he’s not in this discussion, Ethan’s are because he is.
My assumption is, though it hasn’t been made as clear as Mike’s damage to Amber, that Mike messing with Ethan has helped damage him as well.
Just having that much emotionally invested in someone you’re maybe 50% sure is your friend will mess with you.
That’s not Ethan’s fault, but it is grounds to argue he’d be better off without Mike around.
Which Danny is doing in about the worst possible way.
Yeah, count me in for another “Danny is not actually wrong here” team. I don’t dislike Mike because I understand his role in the narrative but for Danny, he’s an annoying, irrepentant bully. Danny’s feeling do count and for the first time ever he has decided to stand by them instead of letting them be trampled.
That being said, the timing could have been better.
Yep. I’m happy Danny was able, for once, to say what he really thought about someone, even if that hurt and will ruin forever a possible relationship. And this is connected by all the previous discussions about ow people really able to change and redeem themselves, but the others are not obliged to pardon them, made with Ruth.
I’m confused at this point. Do they want to make out or not. Cause all this talk of Mike and whether on not his grand gesture redeems his lifetime of being a dick is a real mood killer.
Make outs could still come somehow. Probably not in the way I expect. But Danny is basically pointing out the elephant in the room at this point. And at bottom, what he’s saying is, “I care about you and Amber and want you to be treated respectfully.” That’s his issue with Mike.
He’s doing a terrible job treating Ethan respectfully himself right now by implying (at best) that his grief over his friend maybe dying is misdirected.
Look, I’m the last person to say that Danny has to forgive Mike or think kindly of him, but I’m also a fan of ‘this is someone who’s been his friend for ages, HAVE SOME GODDAMNED TACT AND DON’T SAY THAT OUT LOUD.’
Seriously, Ethan’s not in there because Mike’s parents just arrived and need privacy. Ethan showed up today to Amber holding vigil and hearing yet more indications that witnessing this was so traumatizing it ripped her psyche a new one. Ethan is not just reeling from one of his best friends being in a coma, he’s watching how it’s impacting all the other people in Mike’s life, too.
And even if Ethan were literally the only person who cared about Mike whatsoever, it would still be STAGGERINGLY bad form to say this to him right there while the wound’s still fresh. Not if you want to stay friends with him, at least.
Yeah, it’s a shitty thing to say. Sometimes people say shitty things in the heat of a moment and that’s one thing. It’s particularly shitty to say to his worried best friend.
Spent 5 years deliberately prodding Amber to make her more dangerous. Worsening her trauma and mental illness.
That’s more than “kind of a dick” or “meanie meanpants”. I don’t think he deserves to be seriously injured, but I sure as hell think Ethan’s better off without him around.
Barring his realization actually changing him, of course.
Joe isn’t always the nicest either, but Danny has still been his friend for years. He probably wouldn’t respond well if one of the girls from his “Do List” said Joe is better off thrown from a roof and comatose
That’s actually a very good point! I hope someone will make this comparison to Danny (not necessarily Ethan, but maybe someone else), because it seems Danny’s clearly to self-centered here (in this moment) to be able to look at Mike’s situation from Ethan’s perspective.
also….
I just realised, my name seems quite too topic specific and somewhat tone deaf, but I promise, I had it before this storyline
(it’s a combination of letters from my name, so…)
That takes some true talent to say something cruel by mistake, and then actively make it so much worse. Dude was kind of rude to you and messed with your head a little when he saw you. A coma that may be a precursor to permanent brain damage is not proportionate retribution in the slightest. Saying something in that vein to the guy’s friend, who is in an incredibly fragile state of mind, is just willfully cruel and shows a serious case of ‘protagonist worldview’.
As in ‘this really bad thing doesn’t matter because it happened to someone I don’t really like and I don’t understand why my Love Interest cares because only my feelings about the guy matter’.
Hah, I actually got it from a friend, from back when I was a barista. I didn’t understand why a particular regular was always so condescending to us, acting like he knew us better than we did. (“Us” being two women who were in their late twenties at the time, and she was/is even married) I really didn’t get it, until she very neatly explained he suffered from “protagonist syndrome”. We weren’t people with our own lived experiences and motivations to him, we were just props in his story. Whenever we behaved in a way that didn’t “fit” our assigned roles to him, he felt the need to “correct” us. Nothing proved her point better than when he asked about her after she left the store, and I told him she no longer worked there. He immediately started up on how “her attitude” was never going to work long but she’d learn –
At which point I, since I was so tired of him by this point, interrupted him to inform him she’d left retail because she’d finished her degree and was now working as the office manager of a private practice. I cannot describe his face accurately, but it was kind of amazing for me to realize he genuinely believed that we had lives separate from our interactions with him.
I think my most bizarre interaction with him was when another regular was having a conversation with me about something that had occurred at mosque. I was volunteering with a summer gardening program for the kids there, so I was of course interested in all the gossip. He asked if I was a Muslim. (Which is kind of nosy, but considering the context, I let it go) I very matter-of-factly responded that I’m an atheist. (Also a horticulturist and a nanny at points in my life, thus why I was asked to help out at the mosque)
To which he responded with, as I said, a very /bizarre/ thing. “You are a very angry person.” He said it in the most smug, I-am-a-very-smart-man tone, and I just…looked at him? Because I could not see how he got that from anything in the conversation. (The gossip was innocuous, “Mrs. So-and-So is bossing around the imam”, typical house-of-worship goings on)
But as I said, protagonist syndrome. In his mind, all atheists are angry. So even though he did not know me outside of ordering coffee, I was now a very angry person. Even when the other person tried to intervene, saying I was the most mellow person he knew, Rob just said, “No, she’s very angry.”
I mean, I was irritated at that point. But mostly it was just bizarre.
Rob was pretty impressive in his awfulness, but his awfulness was mostly just annoying. Since, well. None of us actually cared about Rob. I had completely forgotten him until now. Which, now that I think about it, would probably really aggravate him, so there’s that!
Damn it Danny, you had another moment to think and instead of running it back you doubled down.
I get it though, one good deed doesn’t erase all the Terrible Things a person has done in their past. Which is true but Mike is barely an antaganist not a straight up bad guy like so many other people we’ve seen. We’ve seen a Mother sell out her own daughter and nearly get her killed, father’s kidnap their on kids along with their friends in order to threatened their lives in order to get them to come home, people drive others to suicide by blackmailing them and not care afterwards, oh and also murder. Compared to all that what Mike has done in this AU has just made him look like some bitter angry prick who like to stir the pot.
She didn’t succeed, but Mary was actively blackmailing Ruth which contributed to her reaching an active suicidal ideation state, prompting Carla to out Billie and Ruth’s relationship to the hall because it was the only way she could think of to disarm Mary’s blackmail. (I think Ruth was only a few steps shy of that pre-blackmail, but still. Mary was COMPLETELY unrepentant and actually told the other dormites to maybe wait before they got Chloe and ‘consider their options’ in a way everyone immediately recognized as a euphemism for further blackmail.)
Apparently you did. The action goes something like this:
Mary is irritated by Carla’s exuberance and rollerskating. Mary decides to use the fact Carla is trans against her. Ruth is having none of it and slaps her down. Mary realizes that Billie is living with Ruth and uses this fact to blackmail Ruth into letting her do what she wants to Carla. Ruth temporary backs down leaving Carla as collateral damage, but moves Billie out so Mary has no blackmail ammunition. Ruth is already barely able to deal with depression and without Billie’s support attempts suicide. Billie, true to their mutual suicide pact, and unwilling to live in a world without Ruth attempts suicide as well. Carla, realizing what is happening, tattles to the authorities and saves their lives.
Oddly enough, neither becomes a super-villain out to get Carla and she remains mostly unpunished for her good reads. Some may find this unrealistic.
I think “irritated” is the wrong word. Mary looks like the type that is actually GLAD transfolk exist because they’re an easy demographic for her to bigot at.
I mean, part of her aaaaaand… dude-she’s-smooching-atm-and-whose-name-I-can’t-recal-nor-do-I-care-to kink appears to be “oh, we are so much purer than other people”.
It’s sort of like Theresa of (but not actually from) Calcutta was so glad that poor, suffering people existed because that let her show how compassionate she was (she really wasn’t).
I think a difference is that none of the others are friends with Mary or any of the parents. They don’t get to hang out with our heroes. I do sympathise with Danny a bit. Like, it’s absolutely terrible timing, but I’ve been in groups which have had an absolute 100% arsehole in them and I’ve always thought “why is this guy hanging out with us? He makes everything more unpleasant by his presence.”
Watching this hurts more than Schlock Mercenary concluding after being a daily part of my life for a decade and a half. So thanks for the distraction, Willis.
Seriously, I think Dan and Ethan are having a different conversation than the one people are talking about. The fact that Ethan isn’t actually angry at Danny in this strip shows that Ethan, on some level, “gets it”. I expect Danny in the next comic will say “Yes, they always have been. And Mike treated them like his playthings so I am less concerned for his well-being.” It’s a terribly terribly shitty thing to say and Mike has consistently been a terribly terribly shitty person.
I think it also illustrates Danny actually doesn’t care about ethan as a person, only as a romantic ideal. Danny is interested in Ethan for his body and geek cred, not that Ethan is suffering here.
Ethan got it at first, and he wasn’t angry, but he’s upset when Danny continues to badtalk Mike in front of someone [Ethan] who cares about him. Danny thinks Mike treated people like their feelings don’t matter, but Danny is kinda treating Ethan like his feelings don’t matter right now.
I find it ironic that he tried to make a point using star wars as if that should stick, but on the same tic discredited his own analogy by pointing out the entire scenario is fictional. Kind of trying to have it both ways there.
Well, I would say that’s on a different line of thought. Ethan pointed out Mike hurt people’s feelings sometimes but didn’t cause the destruction of an entire planet. Danny pointed out the planet was fictional and the feelings weren’t. So the point is that Mike should be more hateable. To Ethan, I guess? But then that means he’s saying Ethan isn’t feeling how Danny thinks he should be feeling. I really don’t think Danny is intentionally insinuating anything like that.
So maybe you’re right, he’s just scrapping the metaphor entirely and making a bitter comment to further his “woe is me” (“woe is us”?) mentality. But technically, if you don’t preclude Danny being a massive and purposeful jerk, the metaphor could be intact.
Yeah I wouldn’t go as far as to say “Worst character ever” it just feels more like one of those times when you see a very ugly side to a person and you frustrated with them because you know they’re capable of being better than that.
And that’s good because that’s another way a story and its characters can be more relatable to real life.
I’d say Danny is now Joe-levels of awful in that he wants Ethan to ignore Mike’s situation and be prepped for being his romantic partner. Danny is irritated Ethan is not in the mood for a grand romantic gesture.
So, yes, he’s every bit as much a douchebag as the guy with the D-List.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Danny still tries to confess now, since that’s probably the most effective way to further Dan this situation into oblivion. I’m even a fan of Danny, but what the heck man.
I thought I shipped Danny and Ethan, but now I want this to happen while firmly believing it would be disaster, so I guess I don’t ship them that hard?
It’s less of a ship, more of a leaky canoe.
All I ask for is a Danny/Ethan moment, however ill-advised… maybe Danny decides to kiss Ethan, say… and then whatever inevitable chasm that brings between the two, so be it! 😛
Question? Would anyone else not care if Willis just stopped doing comments? I mean, most of them are all the same everyday anyway and not having to moderate them would give him more time to spend with his kids. Personally, I think Willis should only allow comments once a week, which would allow for a more critical analysis of the comic by comments and would keep Willis from having to stay up deleting shit every day.
If Some1’s concern is legit about Willis having more time to do other things, that doesn’t really solve the issue.
Personally, I like the comment section and forums or comment sections are something I find interesting about webcomics in general. That said, if Willis felt a change was better for their overall wellbeing, then sure.
Yeah, that would be less than helpful. I wouldn’t have thought about or understood a lot of concepts that are now just Common Sense to me, if it weren’t for this comments section. I had no idea where to start looking, or even that there were terms for the nebulous concepts to look for, but this community made it accessible and doesn’t coddle my ignorance.
I don’t have an opinion on what Willis should do with his comments section. But I know that I often don’t enjoy the comments here. They often feel somewhat toxic, as in judgey, absolutist, thought policing etc. It may not deteriorate in the way that Facebook or some reddit forums do, but I often feel worse off for reading some of them. True of almost any comments section, but especially disappointing here because my ex who introduced me to this comic said that the comments section was a really wonderful place. I think its changed.
It’s been a rough time, lately. People are short on/out of patience for a lot of the behaviors exhibited in the comic. That’s definitely magnified certain responses and attitudes in the comments, I agree.
Thanks for acknowledging that. I recognize a certain hypocrisy in me, because I talk a lot of crap about a certain fictional character in a show I’ve recently started watching (The Walking Dead – only on S3E2, trying not to get spoiled and it’s hard). Like when I watch that show I am very quick to say “They should just kill [anyone who seems to be posing a threat].” But it feels different to me, because that is a post-apocalyptic survival show where killing is “on the menu.” Wishing violence on people in this comic feels very different to me because it is not the same setting at all. Or at least, that’s one possible reason I am uncomfortable with violence in one and not the other.
My take on it is they’re fictional characters. If it’s not okay to wish bad things on them, then I’d need to stop watching because most antagonists on my shows tend to end up dead or at least beaten in a fight and I’d not wish death or injury on someone in real life. Interestingly, I find myself in the opposite situation you do – when I look at settings like that, I sometimes find myself being more critical ethics wise, because I end up thinking about ‘what can you ethically justify in the name of survival’ and I generally believe that if everyone’s in a bad spot, then everyone is owed at least a little compassion, decency, understanding and mercy and you should help someone out if you can. So I often find myself feeling a character’s overreacted and didn’t need to harm someone even if they did, at first glance, seem like a threat.
As for the comment section – well, it’s a comment section. It’s better than others in some ways – for example, I tend to find more understanding of systemic marginalization on here than other forums on average. That said, it’s always had its issues. For example, when Sal first snapped at Walky that their parents were racist? Or when Carla was fighting with Mary? Things were awful.
Personally, for me, it comes down to the strip being discussed. For instance, I love Danny but I’m not loving his actions in this particular strip. Since this particular strip is what’s being discussed, I may be harsher with Danny than I am in other strips because in this particular strip, he’s being an assbucket.
I come back here day after day for the comic and because Willis is a wonderful story teller who makes me think. But some days I enjoy the comments as much as the comic. Without the comment section I wouldn’t know Cerberus or Ana or Emperor Norton or Rose or Yotomoe. And I’d miss the heck out of the Doctor and BBCC and Yummi and theJeff and Bike Bill and A. Mouse and Bagge and Butts and D. Taffy and Needfuldoer and Opus and Plasma M. and Regally and Reltzik (who I can never keep straight because they both start with R) and Agemegos and you know this is going to be a very long list and then I’m going to be really mad at myself for leaving out somebody I’d really miss and so I’ll just stop.
But I wouldn’t want ether Willis or the comic (or his family, but especially not the comic) to suffer because of the comments being a time sink. But I figure that Willis is a big boy who knows what he’s doing and has been doing it awhile and if he ever needs to pull the plug, he will.
And no sooner do I read through it than I go, I didn’t mention HeySo or King Dan. We’ll see if I have enough willpower to stop making additions as they pop into my mind.
I’m sporadic enough in my posting habits that I couldn’t fault anyone for forgetting about me. Rather, given how most of my posts are wall-of-texts relating to technical elements, I’m mostly just surprised that I left a positive mark in someone’s mind. It seems I all too often I unintentionally invoke contention by way of topical misunderstandings here, as well, so I’m especially gratified that my presence is being taken positively (as my own aims are targetted to the drama-aversive, quippy, and two-way educational).
Although I could imagine some people don’t realize that is a different person who just also happens to have the Amber avatar. Especially since I have another, less lazy version of this username (“a snow ʍousɐ”), so you might easily think that they’re just another variant username. (Also, my name started as “anonymous” and gradually evolved into this.) But actually it is a different person. The more you know, as Reading Rainbow says.
(but also maybe you did realize it and my comments just aren’t as insightful as the other mouse’s. this is perfectly understandable. i’m sure i don’t have as much relevant life experience as a lot of other commenters.)
I think he’d be more likely to implement a comment system with trusted moderators than permanently close the comments entirely. Of course that depends on how much actual moderation he has to do here. It seems like the bulk of it is whitelisting new users. Occasionally a comment needs to be deleted, or the odd shithead filters through, but it seems like he’d miss roasting them after swinging the ban hammer.
A solid community has built up in here, which is good for viewer engagement and investment. Reading comics without comments just seems lonely now…
Yeah, given Willis has given no indication I can see they’re fed up with comment moderating (and it’s not a super-heavy moderation to begin with, they rarely feel the need to intervene with established commentors,) whitelisting new ones and shutting them down preemptively (or early, on the rare occasions it does get unexpectedly heated) seems to be working well for them. Take a break if need be – lord knows I have on occasion when I realize I’m getting too worked up about a current plot point – but if Willis is fine with it, Willis is fine with it.
Also, the occasional New Commenter Who Will Not Pass The Newbie Filter dunks over on Twitter tend to be highly amusing in their ‘… Okay I have QUESTIONS here.’ (The last one I recall was, like, an overzealous Yang supporter, months back, who was bringing it up apropos of nothing and had multiple such comments? And was quite… heated in their opinions of how whatever storyline related to their preferred candidate. Or something like that. Could’ve been a different candidate, like I said it was a WHILE ago. I know there’ve been more recent Filter Dunks.)
Your premise is, as far as I’m aware, entirely baseless but, yes, Danny strikes me as being more dislikable in his behaviors than either Malaya and Mike, both of whom are rather forthright in their negative behavior.
Mike cuts at your personal weak points, so you just gotta have self-awareness to avoid taking any hits from that. Rather, he’s given the impression that he mostly just hates hypocrisy and the rest is just done out of general habit, so he’d probably leave you alone in the first place if you have decent self-awareness. I believe we also haven’t seen him make any non-personal blows, aside from ‘your mom’ aspects.
Malaya presents herself as stupidly self-absorbed as Danny (or perhaps even moreso), but at least she makes that clear from the start. Danny basically stabs you in the back with it, at the most sensitive times, in the worst possible way. Malaya’d at least be brusque and matter-of-fact and short with it, as opposed to Danny just slapping Ethan in the face about it over-and-over with entitlement.
If you’re not seeing that then, well, it’s something you should give consideration, because it’s a mindset a lot of people’d have on such matters. That isn’t to say you necessarily need to change your personal evaluations, it’s just to say it’s good to be aware there’s a notable alternative evaluation you may come across.
Though, of course, if I’m misrecalling and Mike did have a scene where he wished death, coma, or other savagery on someone then, by all means, point it out.
Well, at least Danny still isn’t anywhere near to Mary’s level, so that’s a relief for everyone..
Mike, as far as I recall has not “wished death, coma, or other savagery on someone”. He did however spend years poking Amber’s bear to turn her into a timebomb to use against her dad. As he admitted and later realized was horrible during that fight.
He spend the last 5 years deliberately making Amber’s trauma and mental illness worse. That’s worse by far than what Danny’s saying here.
Again, I’ve repeatedly clarified that I’m talking quality versus quantity.
Further, you’re comparing the immature actions of a damaged child with the deliberate, fully aware actions of a young adult. Again, not excusing Mike’s behaviors but, honestly, it feels like you’re desperately trying to paint Mike as a villain without compare, when all we’ve really seen so far is that he’s a mess, the same as both of his best friends.
Moreover, again, both Ethan and Amber are fully aware of who and what Mike is, and Mike never hides that from new relations, either. Danny is deliberately coming in at the worst time, to hit in the worst way, as a complete suckerpunch.
Again, we can allow for subjectivity on some things, or even factor in quantity, but it’s really damn hard to say that Danny’s behavior here is decidedly better than Mike’s history.
While it seems clear to me that Mike is less problematic than Danny- and certainly seems less egotistical about things- at the very least we’re playing a game of “comparing which dictator/abuser/etc is worse”.
Ultimately, we’re still comparing people who’re engaging in awful practices, and it doesn’t really matter which is worse. Which, again, makes Danny a hypocrite, on top of being an insensitive, self-absorbed, simple-minded, immature, horny brat.
Seriously, you can argue subjective points, but defending Danny here was basically impossible to begin with from the first comic, it’s definitely eyebrow-raising, head-scratchingly confusing after the additional progression.
And as soon as we acknowledge that both Danny and Mike are on the same framework, regardless of what level they’re on, we have to acknowledge that Mike did just risk his life for his friend, and Danny- who hasn’t done anything comparable and, rather, has mostly just been a burden on everyone around him- is shitting all over that from a high-horse position.
Really, after that, I don’t see how anyone could find Danny more reasonable than Mike. That’s just a thoroughly toxic outlook on Danny’s part.
Danny has said a bad thing.
Mike deliberately manipulated a mentally ill traumatized girl into being more dangerous. And did not simply do so when he was a “damaged child”, but continued to do so up until the present. It was apparently still part of his plan right up until the confrontation where he saw how close it was to what Blaine was saying.
Even if he was subtler about it and there is no simple quote that looks worse, there is no comparison.
Don’t you get it? That’s just Mike’s personality! But he did a heroic thing! So now him being a complete shit to everyone doesn’t matter anymore! Malaya is just the same by the way, if you can’t manage a basic level of respect towards others just go live on an island.
To get a bit meta, I think it’s part of how we deal with fiction. We like it when scoundrels reveal a heart of gold a lot more than when perfectly nice people reveal their flaws.
Yeah, I’m kind of astounded sometimes at how this comment section will defend abusers because “that’s just how they are” or “but they’re trying to get better”, and then even worse, will claim someone who spends most of their time in comic looking out for others as “the worst ever” for…bad timing.
Like shit, y’all trying to claim Mike has never rubbed someone’s nose in something when they’re already down? *Mike*?
And then calling it “completely baseless” that Mike has said worse shit? Come on here. Aside from “would it be so terrible [if Mike stayed in a coma a bit longer]” not being worse than “opening yourself up to love makes you abusive like your dad”, just come on.
Mike was more than just sometimes a little rude to Danny, though. Isn’t the whole reason he started sleeping with Ethan that he noticed Danny wanted him? Mike saw a guy who was just about to come out and started banging Ethan not because he was into him, but as an actively aggressive gesture of malice to pain Danny and to set himself up to mess with Ethan later.
If you’re Danny and you believe this guy in only sleeping with Ethan in order to hurt him later, then yeah, you hope he stays in his coma.
If that is why Mike had sex with Ethan, then all the more reason for Danny to hate him, though does Danny actually know about that? I don’t remember.
I appreciate the empathy for Danny. I like Danny; he’s one of my favorite characters and I am fatigued by all the trash talk of him, now and in general.
He wavered on whether to seduce Ethan or Danny to make the other jealous then opted for seducing Ethan because Ethan asked him not to do ‘Mike Things’ to Danny.
He seemed to give up on that plan though because he actually had real feels for Ethan. He only slept with Ethan once and that gave Ethan a confidence boost to go be with other people.
Danny has absolutely no reason to think it was done specifically to hurt him or Ethan though because Mike has never mentioned it to him to try to make him jealous or hurt him (Danny’s jealousy developed on its own without Mike specific influence) and Ethan was off banging other guys left and right, casually, which makes it hard to say Mike did it to hurt Ethan when it seemed to only be a positive for Ethan.
So not only does Danny NOT know of this plan’s existence. But outside of it, Mike has done nothing in particular to Danny. He lied to him back when Dorothy first got together with Walky which Danny did not believe but he has otherwise not done anything in particular to hurt Danny himself. Danny can still dislike/hate him for his general behaviour, but apart from annoying him a couple of times, Mike has done very little to Danny.
It’s hard to say he gave up on the plan when he followed through with it and it was successful. He slept with Ethan and that boost of confidence led Ethan to play the field which clearly made Danny jealous. Plan succeeded.
Now, it does seem like Mike’s own feels got involved and it wound up hurting him as well.
Dannys definatly bitter here about ethan not hooking up with him but that is not mikes fault. Ethan could have gone right to danny after mike, he chose to sleep with other guys instead. Danny could have approched ethan directly once he learned he was out, instead he just got quiet and resentful. This strip is pretty much about danny not knowing how to deal with his own security.
A shitty thing to say and a shittier time and place to say it.
But, in a twisted way, I sort of respect Danny for not back-pedaling here.
He’s already opened up this of conversation, better to finish pulling band-aid off. More honest too.
Though come on Danny. I know you were going for the pop culture reference, but that exagerated, strawman example was the best you could do? The comparison is such a poor fit it both indercuts your point and makes you look that much worse for implyinh they are comparable.
No. Danny tried to use an exaggerated example to emphasize how Mike’s heroic act doesn’t absolve him of the abuse he dishes out because even if all Mike ultimately hurts are peoples’ feelings, that’s still important.
Ethan has turned that around to point out (a) Danny is hurting Ethan’s feelings by saying this and/or (b) Ethan has strong, unresolved feelings for Mike.
Unless you meant a love confession for someone else, then 66-33 odds.
[Intense Moral Value Judgement Regarding Portrayed Character]
Anyway, some creators I followed and sorta looked up to in some ways were outed for abusive and exploitative behavior yesterday, so now I’m not sure how to feel about most of the content they were attached to.
Luckily, it was only two people out of that improv troupe, and the rest were more or less unanimously against them. One offered a sort of longish apology, but it comes across as mildly insincere. I’m just sorta worried I won’t be able to enjoy the things they were in, which is a pretty big chunk of the content, knowing what was happening behind the scenes.
once “improv troupe” was mentioned i realized it didn’t mean i’d need to change my entertainment habits. you can still say, i just also don’t know if asking was rude because i’m bad at social skills sorry
Nah, it’s nothing to apologise for. More specifically, I’m referring to a couple from a group called Snapcube/Clownhouse. Their big draw is a series called Real-Time Fandub Games but they also do Let’s Play stuff. It’s a wholly LGBTQ+ group, so there’s a lot of queer-friendly content.
Empathy for Ethan aside, Danny, even from a purely selfish point of view: do you want to get laid or do you want to win this argument right now? Because you are set to fail at both.
Probably better for him to not have sex with Ethan while his unresolved feelings about Mike are unexpressed – that coming out after a tryst would be even worse.
Danny’s exhibiting some seriously self-centered behavior right now, but I honestly don’t think he’s a bad person overall. I think he just has a hard time seeing outside of his personal bubble still. He showed signs of this even back at the beginning with Dorothy, when they broke up. He had no concept of the idea that when Dorothy pictured her life, she could picture it without him, and even preferred that picture. This is kind of a version of that with much higher stakes. Because he doesn’t care about Mike, he can’t understand that Ethan deeply loves him (as a friend at the very least). That doesn’t line up with Danny’s worldview, so it can’t be right, and he’s “correcting” Ethan.
Which disappoints me because I felt like he was experiencing some growth after the stuff with Amber. I don’t think that growth is gone. I think he’s just being a jerk right now.
He had a bit of it with amber as well, some moments of “I can’t believe what you see in a guy like me”-moments that reframed her situations into his situations.
Given all the shit amber had going on, you could claim that it was justified, and in any event it drowned in her drama, but Danny’s abysmal sense of self worth has always made him a bit prone to dismiss other peoples’ internal struggle.
He is still a pretty good egg, even if he right now have problem with not shutting his mouth when he really should be shutting his mouth, but being a bit self-centered is a consistent problem.
It also feels a bit like that moment when Joe accused Rachel of leaking the List and her pointing out how awful it’d be to do so after a rapist nearly broke into the building counts here – something that Danny had never thought of before and took it from ‘gross but essentially harmless’ to ‘holy shit yeah that’s awful.’
oh, good, danny’s perfectly hateable once more. all is right with the world. y’know except for mike being in the coma, I’m not gonna categorize that as all being right with the world because I’m not danny
Hell, I ain’t. I got my own whole list of things I fuck up on, thank you very much. 😛
Though I suppose it also depends on how broadly you’re applying the comparison, since there’s obviously going to be a level of description where overlap is pretty universal. But as far as his specific approach to things.. that’s completely foreign to me, and thank goodness for that.
I have enough complications with interactions (for one thing, not everyone is apprecative of my compulsion to properly wrap up topics, especially when those topics are ones people’ve decided midway through they no longer want to talk about) without actively taking an approach that could be considered as coming from an entitled, self-absorbed dick. -.-;
Yep, I totally remember Mike saying “Let’s absolve those who abuse power of all responsability, burn the cities, and murder all the puppies.” Was that not what you meant by “worse”? Well, there’s only a handful of other things at the same level, so it shouldn’t take long to guess which you actually meant.
Seriously, I don’t have any recollection of Mike getting at all near to Danny’s present level [be it by intent, context, or associated subject], nevermind exceeding it.
There’s some subjectivity to these things but, given how extreme the present matter is (across all three aspects I noted just above), I feel as though Mike hasn’t even had the opportunity to match Danny’s present antics, even if he’d actively wanted to.
Rather, Mike reminds me a bit of Diogenes. Rude, dismissive, DGAF attitude towards everyone, but not actively wicked. Here, Danny is definitely crossing lines and, as we very clearly saw at the end of yesterday’s comment, he’s fully aware he’s doing so, and he’s doing so solely for his own self-satisfaction.
Mike, on the other hand, seems to have a high level of empathic recognition (even if he doesn’t necessarily have empathic valuation), and does things with full awareness of the other invididual. Thus far, that seems to have kept him from crossing any lines.
Hell, even if you take the “butting into anyone else’s business is equally bad” perspective, that’d also only make Mike and Danny equal. Again, just not seeing how it’s possible for Mike to exceed Danny.
Besides, your argument has no value as such in the first place, given that “Person A being a dick” doesn’t ever excuse “Person B being a dick”. That’s how we get to “Let’s burn it all down” territory.
Still not seeing “actively wishing ill” in that. If that was after a break-up, it’d at least hit the timing criteria (context), but it’d still miss the severity of associated subject and the clear malicious [more accurately, that in the sense of versus pranking/teasing/light to moderate bullying] intent. There’s still no clear basis to put it above Danny’s present behavior. Again, Mike easily wins on quantity, but he hasn’t ever matched this level of severity, that I can recall.
Frankly, if “several tapes of you crying” is as extreme to a given person as “people coming to your coma bed to tell your close relations that they wish you’d never wakeup”, I’d have to seriously wonder at how that person evaluates such things.
Fundamentally, “several tapes of you crying” is still in the realm of “petty abuse”, while this is in the realm of “light abuse”. In the broader scope of things, neither one is inherently consequentional, but this clearly is a step above.
Of course, that’s not to dismiss petty abuse in and of itself, as it can easily raise in stature by quantity, under certain circumstances. However, as rude and petty as Mike’s jabs towards Walky may have been, there was never any indication that Mike entered bullying [in the behavioral sense] territory. And, without trying to excuse bullying or minimize its effects on people, quantity on bullying still likely only raises it a stature tier.
So even with high frequency, it’d still likely equate to Danny’s present behavior. If Mike was devaluing Walky’s life on the reg, then clearly that’d be worse, as that’d be the same behavior as Danny but more frequent. And of course, if we’re talking the common conception of bullying, with someone actively demeaning or physically harming another, then that’d be a clearly worse situation.
Basically, this is all inconsequential as far as abusive behaviors go but, at the same time, neither one is behaving well according to societal propriety, and Danny is leading in severity (whereas Mike is leading in quantity). You could argue which is worse (ie, quantity or quality), but my focus these past two days has primarily been on evaluating Danny’s comment on its own circumstances, and how it relates to any single behavior of Mike’s.
In short, I’m not excusing Mike from being an asshole, I’m just noting that Danny’s behavior is rather notable in its severity (within the framework of actions that are inappropriate but not outright abusive).
One could even argue for it being worse than Mary’s verbal attacks, since Danny is directing it towards an unsuspecting, vulnerable friend and, well, not really sure Mary even has friends in any meaningful sense. Then again, Mary’d probably leap at the chance to injure someone when they’re down, so let’s just go with the safe bet of Mary still being way worse.
But, as I keep noting, the issue here isn’t “Danny vs Mike” to begin with, either in terms of their relation to one another, or in terms of how their behaviors contrast to one another. It’s “Danny just sucker punched Ethan (and anyone else nearby that may have an investment to Mike) for no reason, and then decided his own self-satisfaction was more important than anyone else’s feelings, and doubled-down on demanding affirmation on his inappropriate behaviors”. That’s just.. absolutely trashy behavior.
Ohhh no, Danny, no… I really thought he was gonna backpedal hard after the last panel of the previous strip, where he seemed to realize immediately that he fucked up… but after the first panel here he seems to have no awareness of why that was a bad thing to say??? I’m pretty sure he’s destroyed any chance he might’ve had with Ethan, although I doubt Danny’s figured that out yet
That part about how “our feelings are actually real” is especially dickish, because seriously, what has Mike even done to Danny personally to hurt his feelings? Based on a quick look through the Danny+Mike tag, Mike broke the news to Danny (in a very Mike-ish way) about Dorothy hooking up with Walky shortly after dumping him, and… I think that’s it? I guess Danny’s point is that Mike has hurt Ethan’s feelings in the past, but Ethan has feelings in the present too! Just stop talking Danny please
Right after realizing they both had a thing for each other but hadn’t yet acted on it, he decided to seduce Ethan to make Danny jealous. Sure, he wound up also helping Ethan through his own insecurities, but no matter how you look at it that was a serious dick move. Pun intended.
I think he knows it was a bad thing to say, but SEPARATELY dislikes the idea that Mike’s One Heroic Sacrifice makes up for all the rest of his time Being Mike. If Ethan had just left on with “come on he’s in a coma on the other side of this door” then Danny would still be mortified and desperately backpeddling.
Reading this mini-arc, or interaction, really drives home for me why this is called “Dumbing of Age.” I basically empathize with Danny here – even yesterday. It reminded me of when someone I knew had their spouse pass away, who had been violent and toxic in a lot of ways, for years and years. I was relieved. I did not say that to her, but it was an odd thing to sit with.
Really though, my point is that I get where Danny is coming from and even respect him for expressing himself despite the uncomfortable situation. It reminds me as well of when I was friends with someone, and I had been having frustrations with her for a very long time. I tried to talk to her about it, but she didn’t really reciprocate that, and continued to focus on other drama in her life and not tend to our damaged friendship. Finally, I said that I needed to not be around her any more. Shortly after, it was discovered that she had cancer. I felt bad for not “being there for her”, but I also was literally on E in that friendship and had been for years. I could not give any more. The friendship had been driven into the ground from me supporting her for years through numerous breaks ups, etc.
Sometimes we need to express something and it is really bad timing, but timing might not ever be perfect. I waited for years for a “good time” to work things out with that friend. There never was. Eventually I *had* to do express what was in my heart at a “bad time” – or I chose to, because I was no longer willing to live with the frustrations and resentment that I carried in that friendship.
And I basically understand where Danny is coming from. I think he could have chosen better words to express it, a lot better words, but he doesn’t know that because he is 18. I didn’t know what I know now at 18 either. It takes experience to learn how to handle these types of situations with the nuance they deserve.
Not being extra judgy, I think the thing to note is that Danny is coming to a hospital room where a recent tragedy has happened. Ethan was kidnapped, possibly has PTSD, and his best friend is in a coma. Danny is here to make a love confession, irritated than Ethan is NOT in the mood, and then says that he shouldn’t worry about his friend because his friend is a dick.
That’s massively entitled, selfish, and kind of manipulative. If Ethan was a woman, I’d say it was actually misogynist but it’s just toxic in its relationship handling.
“I’m here to be romantic. This is not the time to be sad!”
There’s nothing wrong with sympathizing with the scenario as being familiar to oneself, but anyone doing so should really reconsider the level of attention they’re giving to the considerations of others. Because, as you said, it’s a rather immature (and problematic) mindset for someone to be working with.
*Also not intending to be “judgey”. Nor even saying it’s an abberational behavior. Just noting it’s an immature one, that eventually [decent] people should grow out of.
In light of that, it’s very excusable behavior for youth [fictional or otherwise] (and I think we’ve all gotten too into our heads or circumstances at some point to really pay proper attention to the situations around us), even if it’s not at all justifiable behavior.
As one gets older, however, egotism and entitlement and other immature behaviors just.. start looking all the worse, and emphasizing that “maybe this person just isn’t capable of growing up, or lacks the empathy or comprehension skills necessary to do such”.
Yeah, I don’t think Danny’s a bad person for this overall. To me, there’s never a good time to express a sentiment like that, but there are particularly bad ones and ‘talking to his grieving best friend’ is a particularly bad time and it’s a jerky thing to do. It’ll be a part of him learning how and when to express stuff like that but it’s a real feeling that exists.
I was hoping these two would get together, honestly. They were basically the only major recurring options for that that weren’t Mike.
Ain’t nothing gonna make it a thing now.
Mike’s a manipulative asshole, I personally don’t care what happens to him, but seriously god damn, fake some empathy even if you don’t care Danny. You don’t have to like him to realize that maybe you shouldn’t say that when you’re outside his hospital room where his parents can likely hear you.
Though, honestly I don’t think it matters that he’s saying it to Ethan, especially when Ethan is minimizing Mike’s shittiness by waving it off as being an asshole sometimes. He knows what Mike is like, and even told Mike not to mess with Danny, so frankly, he’s just using Mike doing one good not-assholish thing to excuse his previous behavior, likely as a coping mechanism in case he never wakes up.
And even if we use some sort of philosophical wrangling to justify Mike deserving that, from what we’ve seen his parents certainly wouldn’t..
Not that Ethan deserves it, either. Hell, not sure Mike deserves Danny going all the way to visit his coma bed just to say shit to him.
As goki notes below, it’s not like Mike ever did anything terrible to Danny, deserving of the “visit the hospital bed just to say shit to the coma patient” treatment. And that’s assuming we’re legitimizing that for anyone other than a killer, corrupt cop/businessmen, etc.
Far as I know, Mike has limited himself to mild physical violence and verbal abuse which, frankly, he’s only beating out the average human by quantity, there, not by scope.
I’m not talking about anyone deserving anything. I’m sure Danny didn’t come here just to say shit to a comatose Mike. The entire purpose of my comment was to put focus on the people who are actually in the throws of grief and not Ethan.
Danny’s under no obligation to feel empathy for someone who’s shown himself to be a manipulative asshole for the entire length of time he’s known him, no matter what circumstances the guy is in. Say what you will about timing, there would never be a time where Ethan would accept the conversation.
And considering Mike first slept with Ethan because Ethan said he couldn’t screw with Danny, add in emotional manipulation. It doesn’t matter if he caught feelings.
There’s plenty of opportunities to bring the matter up elsewhere, or with bettr timing [better doesn’t HAVE to mean ‘perfect’, it just has to mean ‘less inappropriate’]. Going to the hospital to do it either puts you on the same level as the individual in question [and that before any collateral damage like Mike’s parents], or means you’ve got amazingly bad impulse control.
We’d go with the latter for Danny but the fact that Danny is continuing with this, up to this point, and with complete dismissal not only of Ethan’s current mental/emotional state but also of any other invested parties nearby, puts it so that we’re having to ascribe both aspects to Danny.
Also, referring to your first post:
“Though, honestly I don’t think it matters that he’s saying it to Ethan, especially when Ethan is minimizing Mike’s shittiness by waving it off as being an asshole sometimes.”
If it doesn’t matter in that sense, then Danny wouldn’t have any investment in Ethan’s feelings to begin with, meaning the best course would simply be to break off with Ethan. Even if we’re ignoring the “let’s not care about Ethan’s feelings” bit, the best idea is to either let it go entirely (accepting it as a flaw of Ethan), or to discuss it reasonably. There’s just no reasonable excuse for this approach or timing.
“He knows what Mike is like, and even told Mike not to mess with Danny, so frankly, he’s just using Mike doing one good not-assholish thing to excuse his previous behavior, likely as a coping mechanism in case he never wakes up.”
Wow, okay. And now you’re turning this on Ethan, even though he’s the one having to react to someone else’s random shittiness, ala classic victim blaming. I could break that down to several additional flaws [such as the fact that Ethan has been friends with Mike well up to this point, without Mike having to have done any good deeds to maintain the friendship, or the fact that Ethan’s current response seems to be more focused on his own emotional state than on excusing Mike’s character wholesale] but, frankly, this is pushing territory that just isn’t worth my time anymore.
Though I’m really not sure how we got to that from your original post’s sentiment, which I was agreeing with, so do please correct me if there was a miscommunication in there somewhere.
The miscommunication came in with talking about what Mike and Ethan deserve in this case. The focus of the first half of my comment was on the face that hospital doors don’t do much to muffle sound and the Warners are in the room, and I broke the second half, more directly about the conversation in the strip, into a second reply for clarity.
As for saying I’m victim blaming, Ethan’s minimizing someone’s abusive traits and justifying it with “But he saved someone.” It’s him immediately following up Danny’s apology with “He got into this situation trying to save Amber.” that makes me uncharitable here. It’s just piling on extra detail to make someone else feel more guilty for intrusive thoughts coming out.
I feel like Ethan is saying that more as a “This really isn’t the right time to get on Mike, since he’s in this coma you want him to stay in because he chose to do something decent, which kind of invalidates your ‘he’s just wicked and deserves to be in a coma’ sentiment as being any kind of absolute”. In short, Ethan is emphasizing that the timing for it is extremely inappropriate, which is something I’ve been asserting myself from the start. 😛 Really don’t think Ethan is trying to excuse Mike overall, just trying to point out the timing, approach, and hyperbole that Danny is spewing is just utter dickish nonsense.
Because Ethan told him not to screw with Danny, for the most part, considering Mike was planning to sleep with one of them to make the other jealous. And frankly that doesn’t change that Mike was a manipulative asshole to observably everyone.
I’mma gonna swim against the current here, but it looks to me like Danny just triggered Ethan into a realization. Not gonna lie, it’s an a**holery tactic, regardless of the motivation. Just the wrong thing to say. … but last panel — might — be Ethan realizing something. Porbly wrong, but that’s my fault.
As someone who suffered harm from bullies at school and wished terrible things on them at the worst times, I can empathise with Danny. However, yes, it is easy to go over the line and let your feelings become disproportionate. For all his manifold negative attitudes, in the end, Mike chose what he knew to be the right path. Unless he recovers and tells us, we’ll never know what made him such a cynical and manipulative person. Nonetheless, I feel that it says something critical about him that he volunteered to protect naive Joyce from Joe’s stumbling seductions and chose to fight to the death to protect Amber.
Was it Ethan walking away from him that taught him the error of his ways? Was experiencing for himself the pain of cruel cynicism that made him want to change? Or, was it that he had never changed at all but, rather, had simply chosen to shed his facade of edgelordship to show who he really was when he wasn’t trying ot pretend to be emotionally detached from everyone else?
Mike didn’t volunteer. Joyce asked Ruth and then him, and he did it because she gave him carte blanche to punch anyone who acts inappropriately in the face.
Whatever backstory made him a manipulative person wouldn’t excuse it. He’s still a manipulative person and Ethan knows that.
This might be the first time I actually activly dislike Danny. Up until now he just irritated or mildly annoyed me from time to time I never really got why people disliked him so much. I do now.
You are right of curse, it is the worst he has been by far. Still dont hate him tho, but I can not reacal ever really hating anyone so thats not saying much.
On a slight tangent it kind of unsetteles me how freely some people you such a strog word as “hate”. Maybe they don’t really mean it, I don’t know.
I am not sure but maybe people disliked Danny so much because up until now his way of screwing up was in a really comman teenage way so it was easy for people to see either their younger selfs or people they knew in him?
You can’t rely on fictitious morality in one breath and reject it in the next! Either you commit to the Darth Vader Ian redemption narrative of reject it entirely, you butt.
Okay, ya done it, you fictitious dorks and all you anal-retentive dorks that bongo about said fictitious dorks, I’ve been motivated to give you a lesson in actual ethics:
“[Do not speak] of what men deserve. For we each of us deserve everything, every luxury that was ever piled in the tombs of the dead kings, and we each of us deserve nothing, not a mouthful of bread in hunger. Have we not eaten while another starved? Will you punish us for that? Will you reward us for the virtue of starving while others ate? No man earns punishment, no man earns reward. Free your mind of the idea of deserving, the idea of earning, and you will begin to be able to think.”
Actually, it’s not really considered a story of redemption by most.
By most analyses, Anakin was basically a force addict and, as with most addicts, he engaged in ever more destructive habits (and, as with many severe addicts, had a pusher who kept encouraging and escalating his habits).
And an addict or abuser having a moment of lucidity and remorse and conviction towards being good isn’t really redemption. It does indicate he still had some measure of good in him, but there was no guarantee he’d not fall back into bad habits later on.
More than that, it’s not redemption even in a classical sense, given that even mass murderers, totalitarian dictators, and so forth can show favoritism towards their children [or engage in similar exceptions of selectively decent behavior]. Redemption in a classical sense would be Vader becoming lucid, and single-handedly leading a reformation in an attempt to make up for his past.
Basically, Anakin’s entire life was portrayed as a self-destructive tragedy, where he had good premises- his love of his mother (which drove him to vindictiveness, destructiveness, and brutality), his desire to mean something within the Jedi council (which led to his feelings of entitlement, insubordination, betrayal, etc), his passion towards Padme (which drove him to jealousy, posessiveness, paranoia, and more), his aims towards his children- to have a legacy, to have a connection, just as he had wanted with his mother and padme (which drove him to ever-escalating derilictions of duty and finally betrayal.. wait, those are good things now, though :P).
Basically, it’s about an addict/abuser/etc who always had good.. well, not intentions, but certainly desires, and just never approached things well. It’s a rather elaborate and grounded character piece [well, once you’re able to accept the premise of how insane and petty and petulant Anakin is as an individual, especially early on], rather than being some sort of dramatic redemption arc.
IN SUMMARY, if we’re connecting Anakin-Vader to Mike, the proper counter-argument would be “He handles his life poorly, yes, but he’s not an intentionally wicked individual, and he has some moments where he’s reliable and good (to those he cares for).”
Not “and then one day he’ll magically be a puppy-loving perfect human who was redeemed from his past mistakes”.
And once we look at it through that lens, the Anakin-Vader comparison actually seems pretty fitting for Mike. Er, once you skip over that whole mass murderer bit, at least. 😛
Honestly this hurts, I actually really like Danny, I know he’s the punching bag of the community and to Willis apparently. But I see him as I see myself several years ago, trying really hard but unable to see past the protagonist-glasses glued to his face, unable to see others experiences and truly get their feelings. I don’t know why I can do those things now and I couldn’t then, I don’t know what changed. But I don’t see a genuine malice in Danny, and I think he can change like I did, so I still root for him.
I don’t think Danny is a bad person, overall. I think it’s exactly what you just said, and he’s got those protagonist glasses glued to his head. Only his feelings are valid and real. He doesn’t like Mike, therefore no one could possibly like Mike or have any positive attachment to him. He’s just “saying what needs to be said/telling his truth/not repressing himself”.
Ethan’s feelings aren’t factoring in for him, because he literally can’t wrap his head around the idea that Ethan has his own experiences and history with Mike that allow him to see Mike in a different light. Danny thinks he’s doing the right thing here.
Unfortunately it is very much not, and it makes him sound like a self-centered jerk. And it’s painful to watch, because Danny isn’t really a bad person. He’s just a very dumb kid with no life experience yet.
Or Danny knows Mike’s been messing with Ethan so long he’s got an emotional hold on him, even though he’s toxic and abusive to him. Maybe Danny is thinking about Ethan.
If it makes you feel better, I think everyone does it. I mean, your head is the only one you live in, and your life is yours, so a lot of your rationale/decisions are going to be “you” based. That’s not really bad behavior. It’s just living.
It’s when people do this stuff here, like Danny is doing, where they treat other people like NPCs or side characters to their story, not people with their own histories and motivations, that a person is being a jerk.
As someone who can’t remember everything that happens in the comic — beyond Mike being Mike, was there something specific Mike did to Danny that makes him hate him?
No, he didn’t. He even gave up on the plan of making Danny jealous (because of his own jealousy and feels for Ethan, though Danny became jealous anyway of his own accord).
He lied to him like, once, which Danny didn’t believe back when Dorothy had just started dating Walky, and annoyed him at the party before he got hurt, but he hasn’t specifically done anything to Danny, because Ethan specifically asked him not to do ‘Mike Things’ to Danny. It would be fair for Danny to still dislike/hate Mike just for the things he has done to Amber and Ethan and his general attitude but Mike did NOT in particular do anything to Danny himself.
You know, I was kinda on Danny’s side yesterday. I mean, it was still a bad thing to say *outloud*, but everyone has those bad thoughts that sometimes you gotta sit back and go “wtf” at *yourself*. Sometimes you brain/mouth filter malfunctions and you say them out loud. Still bad, but he could have recovered – and he almost *does* here.
BUT THEN after his apology he just sort of… doubles down, rendering the apology worthless and in the process doing more damage. And any sympathy I had for him is just *poof* gone.
I don’t think that Ethan is in the “I don’t want to think about this, let’s fuck” stage right now. I think Danny has pretty thoroughly removed himself from that category. That and the line “yeah. They are.” about his feelings? I think Ethan might be realizing he loves Mike.
Doesn’t even need to be about love realization, it can just be “Mike is my friend and you’re not even remotely considering my feelings when deciding to take this stand at this moment.” I mean, as I noted yesterday, that would be the natural response to the original comment Danny made, nevermind his bewilderingly dickish follow-ups.
He could also be remembering when Mike *did* consider his feelings: when he told Mike to back off of Danny. And Mike confirmed to Ethan at the party that he did just that. And now here’s Danny *not* doing that.
Clearly the dapper hat is not enough anymore. Time to grow a full beard and a manbun, Danny. Maybe then you will be likable. Better odds on that than personal growth.
Pretty much this. We only know better about Mike because we can see into his inner thoughts and his past. For everybody else who meets him, Mike is that incorrigible a-hole who insults and belittles everybody he meets, presumably so they can feel better about themselves. For all the times we’ve been discriminated against, yelled at, degraded or even physically assaulted, there might have been “a good reason” for why the person acted out (they have a mental disorder, a physical addiction, a traumatic childhood, an abusive relationship, a really REALLY bad day), but as Danny says, it doesn’t make the hurt and damage they caused go away.
So yeah, this was NOT the time or place to have this discussion, Danny, but nor do I fault you for feeling this way.
Danny is a character I’m re-evaluating as every relationship he’s in, he’s selfish and surprisingly manipulative. In fact, I’d go so far as to say he’s a Nice GuyTM and asshole on par with Mike. Danny came to prey on Ethan during a time of emotional vulnerability and outright says he doesn’t give a crap about a fellow human being in a coma. Which if you don’t, DONT COME TO THEIR HOSPITAL ROOM.
In TV tropes terms, this is his Moral Event Horizon for me.
Or you know, you could read his actual thoughts and past words.
“I almost lost him forever. So I should tell him exactly how I feel about him.” isn’t exactly “prey on Ethan during a time of emotional vulnerability”.
They are pretty self-centred, aren’t they? Ethan appears as the object of Danny’s feelings, with no thought given to Ethan’s experiences, feelings, or current situation.
Yeah he’s certainly not going out of his way to prey on Ethan at a vulnerable time. For all the interpretations of these last two strips I think that one is a misreading.
I do think Danny is very much a Nice Guy (the bad kind), but like many Nice Guys, genuinely thinks he is an actually nice guy and doesn’t have the social awareness to grasp what he is doing wrong.
So I don’t read him as manipulative here…I think he genuinely thinks he’s telling Ethan a Hard Truth as a Good Friend and is oblivious to the fact that he’s actually just being an asshole.
I agree that “Isn’t comparable ” But sometimes ??? That was Mike’s fulltime job! And Ethan is totally in love with Mike. So better for Danny to go away.
I agree with you Ethan, but devaluing the amount that Mike is such a shit human doesn’t change the fact that he’s a shit human. Even when he did his sacrificial action he being a shit about it.
oh hey i havent commented in a while but man
i feel for danny here. he has only ever seen the worst parts of mike, only sees what mike wants him to see, which is just a grade-a a-hole who makes inappropriate jokes. ethan, meanwhile, has seen a lot of humanizing moments of mike. he knows that the a-hole thing is (at least partially) a facade.
and NEITHER of them have mike’s full story, because no one can, and mike has made sure no one can.
but for danny, he sees what he thinks is an absolute, unapologetic asshole using ethan. he doesn’t see the years of friendship the two have had. of course saying all of this is out of line in the current situation, but if he was comparing mike to darth vader before this whole fiasco happened? it wouldn’t be that weird, would it?
it’s in poor taste now, and with what we as an audience know about mike and with how ethan knows mike, but to danny this all is like, slightly-out-of-line-but-not-wrong territory.
also, danny, please PLEASE take it from me.
no one wants to be given any new information, even if it’s good news, if they have a loved one who might not make it. wait until things fall one way or the other. too much is going on and there’s too much to process at the moment. and i wasn’t even dealing with having just been kidnapped on top of that.
nooooooooooooooooo what the heck danny don’t just pile more on … the hole you’re digging…
Okay, I’ve completely confused my metaphors. Anyway, you apologized but then you stopped backpedaling and now you’re just making things worse?? What is wrong with you!?
How many times has Danny even interacted with Mike? Like all I remember is him pretending to have slept with Dorothy. Maybe Joe told him about the punching and Ethan described some pointed dick moves from high school but how low is his “you should die horribly and young” bar? Is it just bc Mike slept with Ethan after both Danny and Ethan agreed to not pursue each other?
Amazi-girl stalked and harrassed Sal but Sal still saved her life.
Mike was an errant jerk and Danny’s openly rooting for his coma directly to Ethan’s face and in earshot of his family.
Y’know what, I’m actually glad this is coming up. Danny is incredibly immature and slightly out of touch with reality. Maybe this will be a wake up call for him.
I think it’s interesting because this conversation between the two of them is legimitately worth having, but it’s also totally the wrong approach.
Is it okay for Mike to behave like an asshole and do things to actively torment people, the majority of whom he doesn’t care about, even if he did occasional selfless and helpful things too? Not really.
Is it okay for Danny to question Mike’s motives and behavior? Absolutely.
It is the right time for Danny to be offering a critique? And does him not liking Mike (for understandable reasons) mean he should be jumping right to “maybe he should just stay dead”?
I’m doing okay. I don’t want to get too personal but life hasn’t been the greatest but I’m dealing with it a bit better and trying to formulate a plan to get everything in shape once the world stops being on fire. I started reading this series again a while back and, well, I missed talking about it I suppose. I’m grateful I’ve got that chance again.
I totally forgot he had this side to him and at first I was like “woahhh wtf, why would he say that??” but then I remembered his breakup with Dorothy, and yeah, this is how he rolls when he feels rejected/neglected.
I think the core issue is the battle between whether Danny has a point about Mike or whether this being fueled by his jealousy invalidates it (let alone saying it in the hospital outside Mike’s room).
I’m kinda hoping this blows up because I want to write a big defense for Danny for the next strip.
Anyway, I think this is a situation where everyone is right at least partly.
Danny’s emotionally into Ethan (Danny doesn’t do just physical attraction after all), and he genuinely means to point out Mike’s history of abuse particularly with Ethan and Amber.
However, it’s also completely plausible that what spurred this in the first place was Danny’s jealousy over Mike and Ethan’s attraction towards him. Danny means well but he can still be a selfish person when it comes to romance and that’s something he never really got the chance to address.
So which is more important? Even beyond the bad timing of “Mike is in a coma right now” should Danny say anything at all if he’s coming at this from the perspective of considering his own feelings? Or does the truth of Mike’s abuse matter more than that?
To be honest, this is the side of Danny I despise which made me hate Danny very early on and makes me hate him right now too.
This is something I have seen with some generally passive people with low self-esteem before where like Danny, they have many good egg moments and people wouldn’t describe them as angry people. Most of their annoyance and anger in general goes unexpressed or builds up inside towards specific people as their internal lists of grievances grow though (because they don’t actually let things go, things just go unsaid for the time being).
But they are extremely vindictive ‘burn the world down’ people when they choose to release anger and if someone they dislike is framed positively or someone they like is framed negatively, they must correct the narrative. They must point out who the true villains of this narrative are and how bad these people are at any cost. *Even if it loses them the respect of everyone around them for when, how or who they do it to.*
And it never involves self-reflection when they do this. It never involves a ‘I shouldn’t have let things slide/I could have spoken up/I could have done something or said something’. It is just about being self-righteous and angry. It is about correcting the framing to match their own and anything they say, no matter how putrid, is justified in their minds by the fact they feel anger at all because to them feeling anger or hatred = lines must have been crossed as they don’t feel it over small things = they can say whatever they want, the feelings of others be damned.
There is no gain to be had from doing this either except self-satisfaction from ‘winning the argument’ because honestly, doing this is how you lose friends. People can form their own opinions without help believe it or not and don’t have to agree with you.
This is not a healthy release of emotion or expressing valid concerns either, it’s just a horrific thing to say and an outrageously cruel comparison to make.
And quite honestly, in Ethan’s position, this would make me lose all respect for Danny instantly and I wouldn’t even be arguing with him, I would be telling him to get out of my sight, because I’ve seen someone do something akin to this behaviour before, to one of my friends, and it made me lose all respect for them immediately and I never talked to them again for it.
Which doesn’t mean Danny isn’t still *mostly* a fundamentally good person in his general behaviour, but, his flaws that initially look superficial run very deep like this, and they have the potential to annihilate friendships and for me, this would be the friendship annihilated.
Wow, that is a pretty damn accurate summation of all my own problems with this behavior. I couldn’t really work out just what Danny thinks he’s accomplishing here, because there’s being self-centered and there’s being just plain destructive, and somehow Danny is nailing both targets, bullseye. This is it though. It’s all his grievances and pettiness unleashed at the worst possible moment because, well, this.
I just hate this kind of behavior so much, and you summed up every reason why. It’s so shallow and short-sighted and selfish, that it defies logic.
I’m not going to get mad at Danny. ( even if this is suddenly “in character” )
Heres’s why: After 20 ( 30?) years of existence Danny didnt chose to be bisexual ( to make him audience interesting/ audience emotionally invested ) .
Danny isnt the One that kept his image splashed above the comic for 5+ years , from the ONE scene hes flushed from an erection, with Ethan on top of him.
It isnt Danny, currently leaning into “Bury Your gays” and “queerbailting” with the only 2 m/m main character ships in the whole comic, at the SAME TIME.
There is “damn you Willis”
and there is
“Do you really want to be Next to JK Rowling in Tvtropes ” ….think about it ?
You know Rowling is like, an active TERF right? Using her massive amount of wealth, power and influence for the deliberate sake of worsening the lives of men, women and children. That’s a lot different than “a thing I don’t like is happening to a queer character.”
I also deeply resent the idea that Danny was only written as bisexual in order to make him more interesting. I can confirm that I am an extremely boring bisexual.
+1 (well like, +50) on the JKR stuff you said, but also, Danny being bisexual felt completely natural to me, and also it hasn’t made him any more interesting,
Seriously, Danny being bi was handled in a remarkably chill manner. He was a little distressed, but then he was like “Huh I guess I am bi,” and it wasn’t a big dramatic thing or a “I’m hinting that he’s bi but never gonna confirm it” thin g, and I appreciated that, as a bi person who also had a late realization about it in a very anti-climactic way. His story felt the OPPOSITE of “trying to make him more interesting.” It felt very human and very validating, and the implication that Danny suddenly becoming bi after 20-30 years must only be a readership/attention ploy feels like a gross way to imply people who realize they’re bi late in life aren’t actually bi and are just doing it for attention.
If that’s not what you meant then I apologize but…it is a thing some people believe and its exhausting to constantly hear this take any time I see a bi revelation experience that more accurately matches my own.
And srsly comparing Willis, who clearly appears to be doing his best to learn about experiences outside his own and write inclusive stories about a wide variety of people in a non-patronizing way, to JKR who is actively invalidating trans people and refusing to listen to trans people’s experiences at all, is pretty absurd.
P.S. Axel and Spencer, sorry that reply started out as me agreeing with you both but the last part was directed at the earlier commenter, not you, if that wasn’t clear.
1. “Made Danny bi to make him interesting” is a ridiculous assertion given that at least 11 of the 21 characters on the cast page are LGBTQ.
2. Mike isn’t dead. We don’t even know if he’s going to stay in the coma, much less die.
3. All three of the male characters you’re referring to are out about their sexualities. A “will they/won’t they” situation between characters who are clearly established to be gay is not the same thing as having two characters who are established as straight ping ponging between moments that imply romantic interest in each other and moments of clear interest in a different gender (usually while the creator(s)/writer(s) insist the implied interest moments don’t exist).
Ethan and Mike have had sex with other men and each other. There’s a whole separate porn comic about it. We know Danny is interested in Ethan. You are not being “baited” into thinking that maybe these characters will turn out to be gay.
Mike has hurt people. He’s annoying. But he’s much more down in the hated list than Ryan, Blaine, Toedad, Carol, Linda, Naomi, Raidah, Ruth’s grandpa,etc.. Danny essentially said that it wouldn’t be so bad if Mike didn’t wake up. Those are really mean feelings to have.. Dan should have been surprised it even occured to him. Now, he’s going further to compare this to Star Wars? He should at least recognize that Mike is Ethan and Amber’s friend. He is also someone’s son, his parents are distraught.
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Danny, hitting rock bottom and continuing to dig
like, assholery isn’t a crime punishable by death, dud (tho you’re following in Mike’s footsteps at this rate)
If being an asshole was punishable by death, our leaders would never be where they are today. Really is a shame that being an asshole isn’t punishable by death.
If being an asshole were punishable by death, 80% of humanity wouldn’t survive adolescence.
19.8% would die immediately after, and the remaining .2% would be vegetarian loners who’d get by off the technicality that they can’t be bothered to interact with any other living creatures.
After which I can only assume that, for the continued survival of the human race, automated insemination/surrogacy banks and AI teachers will be introduced. Or we just give up and call it a day.. though I guess that’s a sentiment we’re living by already, so the only real gain from this process would be that we wouldn’t have to interact with people or deal with BS politics anymore.
…I’m actually kinda sold, how about y’all?
I’m reminded of the Kino’s Journey story where a country that was convinced they were all really nice people who’d want to help everyone who needed it made themselves all mind-readers so that they’d be able to offer assistance even to those who couldn’t speak up to request it. Turns out everyone had the occasional assholeish thought and without the filter of speech, none of them could stand each other, so they basically lived like this with the isolation and automation.
Man, I haven’t thought of Kino’s Journey in a good long while (though I’ve watched both anime adaptations). Great anime (and definitely among the very best for those with an episode-by-episode narrative format), and a solid lead character.
In fact, there’s not really much competition at all for the niche it fills- Girls’ Last Tour is the only one that comes to mind and, while it’s good (it may be one to try, for those who like Kino), it’s a bit more slice-of-life/atmospheric in its vibe, whereas Kino is all about directly and intimately interacting with various people.
I can recall a couple more that have a self-contained episodic style, but they’re a bit more eccentric/over-the-top, and thus less relatable from a character/story-driven perspective. Or are ones which completely [very rare exceptions aside] avoid character or narrative growth, like Detective Conan.
I think I may need to rewatch Kino at some point.. More than that, I’d absolutely love to see something like that made into a long-running show, if the quality can be maintained well enough.
They’ve actually started releasing a manga version of it! And there’s fan translations of the light novels available (still bitter the official translations stopped at the first volume).
I try to avoid light novels on the whole, as I either get aggravated with the fanfic level of writing skill of the original author, or the elementary-school level writing skill of the associated translator. :S
On the other hand, with Manga being so much less demanding on scene framing, those are always an appetizing thing to go after [though some of those youtube “translations” will easily drive you to Lovecraftian-level madness]. Seems like there’s even two different manga for it?
“There are currently two ongoing Kino’s Journey manga: one by Gou, and one by Iruka Shiomiya. They were both released in 2017 and follow random chapters of the Kino’s Journey -the Beautiful World- novel series.”
Guess I’ll rewatch the anime and then hit the manga. Thanks for the heads up! ^.^
Side-note, even though I avoid light novels myself, my high level of anime/manga interest means I easily hear about the shockingly high number of untranslated, highly respected works out there (some with really cool premises). I’m both appreciative of that fact, but also irked to come across a great concept and realize that there’s no manga translation and the LN translation is.. well, to my usual expectations.
Still better than dropped translations, though- totally agree with you on that being a major frustration. I’ve even had manga translations drop on enjoyable manga after around 70 chapters before, while the manga continues on into 400+. Official translations seem to be the worst about dropping manga, weirdly, and the fact that they were at any point officially translated can inhibit future fan translations.
Nevermind that official manga translations [most especially among app-based translation/hosting services] are all-too-often barely above bottom-of-the-barrel youtube level, and well below the average for fan translations. -.-;
Ah, oops- my first paragraph is intended to state that those aspects are all too common to the medium, not that they’re universal for it. Sorry about any misleading phrasing there.
I’ve gotten into light novels, but mostly for shows I’ve already seen, like Classroom of the Elite, The Rising of the Shield Hero, and Restaurant to Another World. Some of it I think is how readable they are, since The Saga of Tanya the Evil is an interesting show, but I could NOT get through the “light” novel 1. bc I already barely process political dramas that well and 2. the text was just too small for me to read easily. (I have a similar problem with the copy of Good Omens I have, to be fair–it’s definitely funny, but the lack of chapter breaks other than the main three(?) makes it draining, like a big infodump)
never heard of “kino’s journey” until just now
as a dilettante (won’t read the manga, will only watch english dubs), which version do i want to watch, the old one or the new one?
I loved the old one, for what it’s worth. The episode I described is the first in the series, IIRC.
iirc, they cover different things, and the second one threw you in with a mild expectation of familarity with the setting? So I think the original one was the better one to start with (but again, it’s been a while). Though, it’s worth noting that the original is dated on graphics and dates to before America started taking dubbing even remotely seriously.
So.. if you’re watching the dubbed version, expect weak/sporadic quality for the voice acting and weak animation both. If that’s not a turn-off (and taking a quick look at the dubbing, it really is for me, yeesh), I’d say “more Kino is better”.
I guess, the best approach would be to watch through the first episode of the first anime, see if you’re okay with it. If not, move to the next series?
And comedy would be dead too.
Well, all of slapstick, insult comedy, blue comedy, character comedy, and the majority of sitcoms and British humor, perhaps. Black comedy and satire’d be heavily cut, as well. On the other hand, there are plenty of forms of comedy that don’t involve assholery- absurdism, parody, wordplay and other quips/witticisms, improv, and anti-humor come readily to mind.
Wait, if comedy does die, would it automatically become black comedy? Or anti-humor? Or both? As such, is it even possible for comedy to die, so long as people still have any recollection of its existence? :mulls:
Despite all that, I imagine there’ll still be people’ll attempting to excuse Danny’s behavior even after this, all while still criticizing Mike. -.-;
Yeah the first thing I blurted out upon reading this strip was “DANNY, STOP TALKING. STOP.”
He’s nowhere near acting like Mike. Mike would do this shit on purpose for a giggle, and only stop because he figures he’s hit the point where they won’t put up with it any more. Y’know, because then he doesn’t get to fuck with them for fun again.
This is truly fantastic. I don’t even know what he’s trying to do.
I was legitimately expecting Ethan to go off on him though. The lack of that part’s a little disappointing.
There’s sinking a ship, and then there’s showing up 80 years later to chuck the Heart of the Ocean into the water for good measure.
Pfft.
And here I thought we’d already sunk the last of the Titanic references half a decade back. But once more you open the door, and you’re here with the meme, and the meme will go on and on.
My meme goes on forever?
Near, far, wherever you are-
I believe that the meme does go on!
There are U-boat captains digging their way out of their graves right now just to compliment Danny on his technique.
Note that they are digging *up”, a direction Danny appears to have forsaken…
“The Kreigsmarine never issued us a torpedo *that* powerful.”
James Cameron is in the Deepsea Challenger again, on his way down the hole Danny’s digging.
So very well commented; internet+2 and a plate of cookies for you.
KNEW THIS WAS
ONE WAY TRIP
BUT KNEW I
HAD TO TROLL
FUCK YOU MIKE
This reference made my morning
The lookouts were supposed to LOOK. OUT. Not watch Kate Winslet make out with some dude.
oh god why, why, why dig this hole for yourself right now.
please tell me it’s the hat that’s making him say all this…
The hat might be constricting blood flow to his brain? But he seems to make these choices without the hat too, so the hat might merely be a hat.
Notably, his brain without the hat made the choice to get the hat.
This is the worst Mario Odyssey AU.
Sadly, this relationship fail is the kind of thing Danny’s been doing since before the hat.
I think the hat is what’s preventing him from saying shit this self-centered.
Ah here that’s shovel you were looking for Wilcox. I admire your tenacity. Some people would know when to quit digging, but not you. Let’s hope you find what you’re looking for down there.
I think he’s looking to go so far on the other side that he ends up in proverbial china and fixes it somehow.
I mean, sure- at this rate, he’ll reach china.. after which he’ll then immediately contract an undiscovered strain of societal coronavirus, and savage society simply by breathing.
Okay, so that’ll give us Plague, and we’ve already had Death.. Mike atrophying away can be considered associative to Famine.. so now all we need is Ethan to become the embodiment of War, and we’ve got all the modern horsemen avatars embodied. >.>
Do Wiki wars count?
Actually, this comic has a lot of “Wiki Warriors” now that I think about it. Dorothy, Walky, and Ethan were all explicitly mentioned as being obsessive over wiki-correcting, as I recall. And maybe Amber as well? Guess there’s enough there for a spin-off. Not.. not entirely sure I’d want to read it, though. 😛
That’s just Shortpackex, really. 😉
I don’t really recall anyone but Ethan and maybe Amber being wiki-obssed in the original universe, though?
Which kinda makes sense, given that Dorothy and Walky are obsessed specifically over Dexter & Monkey Master [oh, and Carla for Ultra Car, now that I think about it- I imagine she also hit the wiki hard, given her similar level of obsession over her respective show], which obviously didn’t exist in the original universe.
Transformers, of course, are universal. Though in this universe, any potential “Foodformers” would have to worry about copyright infringement when making a Cheesebot (as The Cheese is also a D&MM character), so I guess there’s that potential difference! 😛
Shovel won’t help – he’s hit bedrock. Get him a pick.
Danning it up again.
at a remarkable pace
No one like the original
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Danny is basically saying, “Yeah, I hope your friend dies.”
STAND YOUR GROUND WAS NOT A SUGGESTION FOR CLEANING UP THE MESS YOU MADE DANNY
The Danning Up of 2020 continues.
Temporarily inconveniencing a marginally worse person totally makes up for all the youngling murder.
I think if you die then, yes, kind of.
Yeah it’s kinda funny JJ loves the original trilogy so much he kinda ruined them by making Vader’s sacrifice pointless. Just goes to show the inmates shouldn’t run the asylum.
Cant blame JJ for the 2nd time he actually adhered to the Books
Someone needs to teach Danny the First Rule of Holes.
Take a bad boy make him dig five feet.
The dirt and shovels will give us the beat.
Okay you got to find somethin’ you never found before.
If not, we’ll just have to dig some more.
Maybe if he takes madame zeroni up the mountain he can lift the danning curse
That he’s lost all chance of filling Ethan’s Mike-shaped one?
Not learning to take “no” for an answer will get your lake and your children and grandchildren cursed?
Danny I think apologizing and shutting up is the best idea here. Not only have you ruined any chance you had at confessing your feelings to Ethan, but you’ve quite possibly damaged your friendship with him.
Also, who else was expecting a cut away today?
Danny came to Ethan to confess his feelings while his friend is possibly DYING. Then says he doesn’t care about Ethan’s grief, the dying friend, and wants said friend to stay comatose.
That’s….kind of psychotic.
It would be psychotic if that’s what he planned. Wilcox doesn’t do plans. He just Dans things up
No! No! Dig UP, stupid!
god i wish I could Like this comment
Nah, that’s how you get stuff like this:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/51/40/205140538d8255860589b8a1c36b8264.jpg
I wish to hug the puppy man and slap a dumbass. Who’s with me?
Danny. Danny just… stop.
I suspect Danny will be posting in /r/aita in the near future.
AITA? I (M 18) told my crush (M 18) that his crush (M 18) who’s in a coma shouldn’t wake up because hurting my feelings is worse than destroying Alderaan?
I don’t think Danny cares about his own feelings only though; he doesn’t like how Mike treats Amber and Ethan.
Danny doesn’t care about Amber and Ethan’s feelings, though. Because if he did….he wouldn’t have ignored how they felt.
AITA For telling the Guy I have a crush on that the guy he has a crush on is an asshole while that guy is in a coma?
Yes, Danny, YATA.
Like, buddy, read the room! We all wanted the USS Siecox and you just RUIN it. 😥
Are there any r/aita threads that you can’t simply answer with “Yes”?
Sure, but they’re often sad ones where the person writing it seems to be being gaslit or something in some way.
“I (17 almost 18, f) asked my mother (?, f) to let me out of the tower for my birthday, so I could finally find out what’s with all the lanterns. She was terribly upset and reminded me she only wants to keep me safe. AITA?”
Mother knows best!
Someone I know who follows r/aita more than that would be beneficial for my mental wellbeing has summurized it as “men who ask if they are the asshole for being assholes, and women who ask if they are the asshole for not running immediatly from what is clearly serial killer shit”.
Painting with broad strokes and with notable exceptions, obviously, but possibly catching a trend.
And then there was Peanut Butter Dick guy.
…I will NOT ask.
You shouldn’t. You should look it up and read it. One of the best AITA stories in existence
Not even tempted.
Also the odd parent who wants to know if the punishment they chose for their kid was fair (leans toward assholes, but there was one where the kid had deliberately cut up a hand-sewn wedding dress).
And a sprinkling of (mostly) mothers who describe their (mostly) mothers-in-law trying to shove them out and take over as momgrand of their sonhusband’s child….and wonder whether they’re just being oversensitive about it. (Neeeever trust somebody who says “my baby” of somebody else’s baby. Even if once upon a time you or your SO were their baby.)
My 5 year old sometimes tries to claim her little sibs as her babies. No. They are mine! They’re all mine!!
(all 3 of them including the 5 year old)
There are three major problems with that subreddit.
1. Were only getting one side of the story and people leave out information to make themselves look better.
2. Actual assholes very rarely listen when called out, making asking basically pointless.
3. A large chunk of the stories are very obviously made up. My ex wife tried to stab me with a kitchen knife so I twisted her arm to restrain her, now her family says I was too rough. AITA?
Probably true all of them, but for point 1 it amazes me how many of the stories where despite of it being one-sided, the writer fundamentally fails to make themselves look good in any way.
So we’re getting the version they think puts them in a positive light. That’s probably worse…
Right? The NTA ones are almost always so used to these unreasonable people they’re shocked when everyone reads it and tells them to please, run away NOW (because it’s so frequently that level of ‘oh dear lord no’,) but the YTA ones? There are ones where you KNOW they’re excluding a lot and it STILL comes off terrible. Or the ‘I know the title sounds bad, but hear me out.’
That said I frequently read it as half-‘here’s my take if it’s real’, half elaborate fiction exercises.
@regalli: Yeah, I only see the AITA that pop-up on Willis’s or Jeph Jacques’s twitters, and nearly all of the NTA ones are “JFC, why are you still on the same CONTINENT as this person, let alone in a relationship with them? Run away, fast, far, and YESTERDAY.”
@Regalli: though I have seen a few cases where the title honestly does sound worse than it is; one that comes to mind was a title that was something like “Is it bad I beat my niece?” and context was in a foot race because she was being a poor winner.
Those are a distinct subgenre, yeah.
Most of them
More than half of them, actually. It’s just that the threads that get the most attention are usually ones where there’s a serious debate over who was right or where none of the people reading it can *believe* that the OP thinks they weren’t an asshole.
C’mon Danny. He’s been friends with Mike since middle school.
That’d be like if someone said Joe was in a coma and should stay that way because he can be a jerk sometimes too.
Oh, is that going to be the next strip?
“You’re friends with a jerk too!”
“He’s mostly just a jerk to women!”
“How is that better?!”
“Because you weren’t wronged?”
-Scott Pilgrim
I didn’t think I would say it, but this conversation needs more Rachel
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/fertile/
Honestly, I wouldn’t have said that to Becky if her dad was in a coma.
But it’s not about YOU. It’s about your FRIEND.
And Mike isn’t Toedad.
Sort of. They’ve known each other since middle school and spend a lot of time together, but friends? 5 or 6 years and Ethan’s maybe 50% sure Mike’s a friend. That’s not a real friendship. Ethan’s emotionally attached, but that’s because Mike is a manipulative bastard. Don’t think “friends” think “abusive relationship”.
Mike hasn’t been a jerk sometimes, that’s all he’s been and worse. He spent those years “prodding Amber’s bear” so she’d be a timebomb for use against Blaine. Making her trauma and mental illness worse. Despite my problems with Joe, Mike’s light-years beyond him.
Now, Danny’s still being a jerk here. Even if he’s basically right about Mike, this is the wrong way and the wrong time. His motives are suspect as well.
This also neglects Mike’s realization during that fight how much like Blaine his rationales were. I really do want to see how that plays out.
I believe that was an accurate summation of the situation. I do think there is more to Mike than just being a jerk, but I agree that is all he allows others to see of him. Ethan and Amber have been around him enough to suspect the deeper depths, but Danny hasn’t. He just sees a guy who is mean to everyone and who takes advantage of other people’s weak points. He also knows that Mike has some weird hold over Ethan which contributes to his negative feelings both because he probably sees Mike as an abusive friend and subconscious jealousy.
All of this comes together so that Danny believes that it would be better for Mike to not be around (for good and bad reasons). That being said, he should not have said any of that out loud. The first statement was a slip-up, admittedly, but he doubled down when confronted. He should have admitted that he didn’t mean to say that and he just doesn’t like Mike, then apologized and tried to move on with comforting Ethan, which is what he needs right now.
My point is that I agree with Danny here – Mike’s been worse than Ethan and Amber see. Or at least Ethan will admit. Mike is a toxic and abusive friend. Ethan isn’t seeing deeper depths, he’s blind to the abuse.
I do agree that Danny’s doing this extremely badly.
Danny’s not WRONG about anything here, really. All he’s seen of Mike is Mike being horrible to him and to people that he likes. Probably all he’s heard about Mike is more of the same. So I don’t think he’s particularly out of line for feeling this way, sure.
But you DO NOT air that thought at this moment, to someone in Ethan’s position. To someone who doesn’t know Mike? Sure, vent. At some hypothetical future where Mike’s back and okay and continuing to be a jerk? Yeah, it’s generally a good idea to point out missing stairs in social groups. But in the damn hospital, to Ethan’s face? SON, NO.
I don’t think he actively tried to set out and Dan it up here, it’s just that it came out of his mouth and those feelings are pouring forth.
No one really has any positive stories about Mike except for now, and Danny doesn’t really know how to process that. I also think he’s jealous but who knows how much that influences things.
I agree. It’s just the chorus of “Danny’s worse than Mike ever was” and “Mike was a jerk sometimes” or the speculation about how Ethan and Amber have seen his deeper depths and Danny just doesn’t understand.
Danny’s being a jerk here, but Mike’s been toxic for years.
Agreed. The fact that he had that realization explicitly makes me not want him to die, because it might actually stick. And even if the two of them aren’t privy to Mike’s thoughts in that moment that we are, it was at least a possible indication he was going to change and so Ethan’s defense is relevant.
It’s the leading it with ‘would him staying comatose really be so bad?’ that really torpedoes any point he might be trying to get across. And the fact that he almost certainly DOESN’T know, say, how intentionally hurting Amber to worsen her mental illness is. Or some of the ‘oh holy FUCK this child worries me’ bits from his flashbacks, like the football player and claiming he put Blaine and Amber in the car ride of doom together to see what happened (to Blaine, so I favor ‘he was lying to cover how his good intentions hurt Amber by pretending he didn’t have them’, but there is a possibility he wasn’t.)
Also I don’t think we can overstate how wrong place and time it is because Mike’s parents are on the other side of that door and the laws of narrative convention that dictate their lives mean I give it a 40% chance they walk out to hear Danny saying shit. 60% if he continues on this path and doesn’t try to tell Ethan his feelings.
Absolutely. Danny doesn’t have all the information to realize how bad Mike is – mostly just what he’s heard from Ethan and Amber and a bit of his own observation.
And I am definitely interested in seeing how Mike’s realization changes him.
Wong place. Wrong time. Very badly done.
Until Mike wakes up I don’t think there ever would be a good time to bring it up.
Further strips will clarify where Danny is coming from, if this is just a jealous tirade, if he genuinely thinks Mike has been an abusive presence in Amber and Ethan’s lives, or if it’s a mixture of both.
I think the S.S. Siecox is anchored for now, though.
He’s commented on the abusive presence before, if not exactly in those words. I was actually less sympathetic to Danny until I went back and read his bit with Mike at the birthday party.
Danny, I know that you’re in a comic where people usually do end up making uncomfortable but valid moral points, but please don’t mistake saying things with making one.
The sad thing is, Danny’s … not wrong. Until Mike’s moment of sacrifice did anyone here really think he was anything but a colossal jerk? Yes, Mike did a good thing. No, that shouldn’t erase all the times he’s hurt other people prior to that point.
Although I will concede that THIS might not be the time or place to go there, Danno. Sheesh.
This
I was operating under the assumption Dan did not now about how Mike ended up getting thrown off the roof. And even then, I thought that was harsh. This is something I would reserve for Ryan the Rapist or something.
Him hurting other people’s feelings doesn’t mean he deserves to die????
YUP.
Danny being right about the general concept doesn’t mean he’s right about the context.
Yeah, Danny’s being harsh, but Mike did treat characters in a really shitty way, him included, and I say that as someone who gives Mike more benefit of the doubt in the past that a lot of the comment section often did.
To Ethan, he’s a jerk who has done good things, and had a lot of shared experiences. He’s seen plenty of Mike’s duality.
But, to a lot of the cast, they just kinda get treated like dogshit by Mike on a regular basis and rarely to never see any benefit of that. To them, yeah, this is harsh, but it’s also a “dude’s a prick?” scenario.
Does that make what Danny is doing any less selfish and entitled? If you genuinely hate someone and wish them harm (like staying in a coma forever) maybe you shouldn’t go to visit them in the hospital then say you wish them dead.
Because Dan has done that. He’s so entitled to his romantic partners that he never thought this is NOT the place to make a romantic gesture. He clearly doesn’t care about Ethan’s feelings.
I don’t see Ethan as having a clearer more dualistic view of Mike than the other character’s who’ve only seen him treat people like dogshit. I see Ethan more as if in an abusive relationship with everyone else seeing the screaming red flags he’s blind to.
Even Amber, who’s known Mike as long, has written him off and only tolerates him for Ethan’s sake.
There’s no real reason to be there then. You show up to the hostpital either because you care about Mike or you care about Ethan. Clearly Danny doesn’t care about either. Danny isn’t hurting Mike right now. He’s hurting Ethan, and continues to just make it worse
Doesn’t erase them. Still is a far cry from ‘Is so profoundly terrible you’re hoping he stays in a coma after taking a massive head/spine injury.’
Because seriously, even if Danny’s not fully getting that this can be read as wishing Mike dead… given the Darth Vader comparison, it reads even more like he’s maybe wishing Mike dead. And uh. Don’t do that around that person’s best friend, who was just at his bedside before leaving to give his parents time to be alone with their son and grieve. (Even if Mike recovers, barring a time skip of actual years it is… EXTREMELY unlikely he returns to campus as a student in the context of this strip. And his life will probably be permanently impacted by this, because that is minimum a traumatic brain injury.)
When is the right time for it though. Like this is one of those conversations where the subject matter is so awkward there never really is a good time to bring it up. So when? After Mike potentially dies. When Mike potentially wakes up, to his face? After some sort of undetermined but universally agreed socially acceptable time no one knows? Whenever Danny brings this up he’ll seem like a dick even though he’s right about what he’s saying.
…. when is the right time for what?
Some conversations just don’t need to be had. This is one Danny could have with Joe or Dorothy, two people who know him well enough to understand what point he’s trying to make, and why he feels that way. Ethan is not the person he ever needs to make this point to, not now. Mike is his friend, and has been his friend for years. Mike isn’t a very nice person, but Ethan is fond of him, for a lot of reasons. And Ethan is in a very delicate state of mind right now. Both his childhood friends and some of his new friends have just undergone a traumatic event, that he could not help them with, and that’s painful.
Danny’s seeing this as his “moment of truth” is lacking in empathy, and completely self-centered. His empathy doesn’t have to be for Mike; he doesn’t like Mike, that’s fine. But he supposedly cares for Ethan, and Ethan is hurting right now. This is not the time to say “well, actually you shouldn’t care about this, and here’s why -” You ask if he would like anything from you (walk with him back to campus, get his notes from his professors, play a game with him, or just leave him alone) and deal with your feelings with an appropriate person.
Not every feeling needs to be broadcast. Some things you keep to yourself.
Sounds toxic and repressive and likely to lead to a resentful blow up, sort of like what happened here.
Like, if it gets to that point the adult thing to do is walk away from the situation, not have the resentful blow up no one’s going to listen to anyway. As much as it sucks, Danny is not in a position to convince Ethan of jack skippity, much less that one of the few relatively positive influences in his life is more toxic than the all others (like his mother? or Amber and her family?). At some point you gotta realize you gotta do you, and that may mean you do you over there away from the cute sweet guy and the raging tornado of shit surrounding him.
Of course comic title drop they’re all barely adults etc. etc.
This is where much of the disconnect is. I see Mike as at least as toxic to Ethan as his mother, not at all as a positive influence.
The behavior Danny is exhibiting right now is toxic and cruel.
Danny basically is every bit as romantically toxic as Joe. We’ve seen it with Dorothy, Amber, and now Ethan. Danny doesn’t care about what his partners want as long as he can support them in what HE feels is romantic.
He came here to confess his feelings, not be there for someone in horrifying emotional pain. Because he doesn’t give a crap about Mike.
I gotta say, with Amber the toxic one was not Danny Boy.
I mean, that breakup was because Danny was talking to Sal and feeling worried that Amazi-girl was gonna get Amber killed (While at the same time not knowing that Amazi-girl isn’t a mask but an alter).
This, this this this, what I was trying to get at but better, thank you. Danny does have some real reasons to dislike Mike and his treatment of Ethan and Amber, but that’s an entirely different conversation at an entirely different time that does not involve the guy possibly dying and Danny effectively saying ‘yeah, and?’ This conversation he’s having now? No, not involving them, ever.
I mean even ignoring the absolute ‘holy shit dude are you hearing yourself’ this is putting more shit on the plate of a more-impacted party. Ring theory of grief and support, people.
I’d recommend an ‘I really think the way your childhood friend treats you on the whole is pretty terrible’ be reserved for, minimum, AFTER the dude’s out of a coma and started acting like an asshole again. Because Danny doesn’t need to have that talk with Mike, because he already DID at the party. And new ground with Ethan or Amber isn’t ‘he’s an asshole to everyone,’ it’s ‘he’s an asshole to you guys in particular and I think you deserve better.’ (If Mike starts making actual efforts to change Danny’s perfectly allowed to go ‘good for you, but the bridge for me is already burned’ and not be an asshole for saying that much.)
If Mike dies? You’re allowed to say ‘I didn’t have a good relationship with him, but it’s still a shock to me so I can only imagine how much it must be hurting you’ and come off blunt but still decent.
There’s no universe where you tell a grieving friend ‘I’m glad the person you’re mourning is dead’ to their face and maintain that friendship, because that is an objectively awful thing to say that also dismisses their feelings. ‘I wouldn’t mind if he stays in a coma’ is just barely a step removed from that, and that step is dependent on how much Danny actually knows about real comas and TBIs relative to fictional representation and misinformation.
Honestly even though this is absolutely the worst possible time for this conversation I’m still glad Danny said it. Trying to be tactful is the reason they never went through with their feeling in the first place. This needs to be said so they can both move on, because I think they are both the types that wouldl never bring this up again because they are so aware of other people’s feelings over their own. Danny’s resentment of Mike is something that would just fester if they ever actually started a relationship and in the long run that would be bad for both of them.
Just get this over with now. Maybe they were just never meant to be more than friends. Maybe not even friends depending on how Ethan reacts to this.
Yeah, see, I can’t respect Danny for bringing this up because it’s not really a conversation or actually at all discussing his issues with Mike and his treatment of Ethan and Amber.
It’s ‘I hope Mike doesn’t wake up from a coma.’ It’s ‘would it really be so bad if Mike dies?’ That’s a TERRIBLE thing to say about an 18-year-old (it’s a terrible thing to say about anyone, but I can at least get it when you’ve got reason to believe the person is so set in their ways there’s no hope of improvement – Amber thinking that about Blaine would be dark but understandable. Mike’s never killed someone and has not to our knowledge engaged in partner abuse, and while the situation with the football player was disturbing I’m HOPING it was him buddying up to the guy to get evidence of something that was already ongoing.) Even with someone who had so thoroughly been a net negative on the world, the basic line of decency is to not go to a grieving loved one and say it. And the way he’s doubling down makes it quite clear he’s not considering or caring about Ethan’s feelings on the matter.
So yeah, it would be bad if he hadn’t brought it up before starting a relationship, because it’s a nice, early alert system to Ethan that Danny can be a complete ASSHOLE to his romantic interests when he doesn’t think they’re feeling the things they should be. (Again, this was how Danny/Dorothy fell apart, and there were elements of it in Danny/AmbG mixed in with the ‘Sal is completely evil’ and ‘not realizing this is a situation involving alters’.)
Seriously, if Ethan said this to Danny about Joe, in the exact same situation, would you think it’s justified? Because I’m pretty sure they’ve had roughly equivalent interactions and Joe is also a major asshole, so it’d be the same circumstances. (Mike did have the jealousy plot, but he probably had ulterior motives to start with even before putting it aside, and to my knowledge Danny doesn’t know. It can’t be resentment based off that, because Danny doesn’t know.)
These are all incredibly fair and valid points and part of the reason I’m glad this happened now instead of like three months from now or something when Mike’s either dead or alive and doing whatever a Mike post this arc would do. I don’t think it’s justified or appropriate, but a lot of characters, a lot of likable characters do shit unjustified or inappropriate especially when it comes to attraction and relationships. Like the whole Joyce x Jacob fake girlfriend bullshit or how Billie x Ruth even started. Hell Walky was grinding with the girl who stabbed his sister in the hand and still tried to flirt with his ex the same day that girl saved his life! So Danny being a low key asshole here is par for the course to me.
But again fair. I’d even say you’re in the right here. I’m just glad this happened in the first place.
More ‘highkey asshole’, in my mind. Like I said you can totally have a talk about ‘I know you care about Mike but seriously *that thing he just did/you just mentioned he did years ago* sounds horrifying, he does/did things like that a lot, I kind of feel like you should unpack that with someone’ when you’re not thirty feet from his hospital room, and without going so far as to wish Mike dead as your opener and then imply Ethan shouldn’t have any emotions about his potential death. Or if Mike was making a genuine effort to change, ‘I’m glad you are but I still don’t forgive you.’
I’m still sympathetic to Danny, but he is veeeery much not being a good egg right now.
NOT WHEN HE’S IN A FUCKING COMA AND POTENTIALLY DYING.
Yeah. If Danny had sad “man, Mike is sure a jerk. Sad he is in a coma though,” it would be a very different conversation.
But since Danny is Danny, this is the conversation we are having.
I think it’s possible to say (at a much later date, when Ethan has had more time to process things) that Mike wasn’t a very good or supportive friend WITHOUT saying ‘I hope he never wakes up from his coma’ while Ethan is still going through a vodka cocktail of emotions (grief, shock, fear, etc)
If Mike dies, you don’t *have* to have the conversation, because he’s not going to be in Ethan’s life anymore anyway.
I think partly being ADHD myself and prone to saying stupid fucking shit, this exchange between Danny and Ethan is somewhat relatable, but it does come down to Danny not knowing Mike except for all the shitty things he has done, and Ethan having a much longer and, indeed, now confusingly deep history with Mike. As well, he is projecting his own guilt and self loathing for having shut Mike out just before the incident onto others.
So, I don’t see Ethan and Danny making out after this. But maybe they do. But yeah Danny is absolutely blowing this one and not respecting Ethan’s emotional state, when Ethan could honestly really use someone like Danny to listen and support him right now.
He died while trying to save us from the martians, give him some credit! Even though that is so out of this canon it’s more fictional than Star Wars.
It’s not fictional, it’s just in another universe!
Definitely not the right time. Danny knows that Mike is (in some way) an important person to Ethan. Maybe you could write his first blurt off as word vomit, but DOUBLING DOWN on the statement, while Ethan is STILL reeling from 1) being kidnapped, 2) watching a man die and 3) possibly losing one of his best friends??
Dan. Please. Just stop.
Yeah, the answer may be, “Maybe Danny, YOU are the asshole.”
Waiting for the part where that’s relevant to what Danny said at all
It’s like . . . if Danny had been told that someone had glued legos to Mike’s floor so either he had to sleep in shoes or he’d step on a lego every morning and Danny had said the lego-gluer was justified, that’d be one thing. Bringing this up about someone in a coma is another matter entirely.
Then the Indiana Lego Floor Burglar teams up with the Whiteboard Dingdong Bandit, and none are safe…
No! He’s not got a point. This was in response to Ethan saying “They’re not sure if he will [wake up] for a while.” Remaining in a coma and nearly dying is in no way, shape, or form proportionate retribution for being a jerk. At all.
Also, Danny’s just accidentally sabotaged Mike’s original plan to get him and Ethan together (though he’d seemed to develop feelings for Ethan and had second thoughts by then).
Mike was a dick and probably did a lot of actual damage to Amber at the very least by aggravating her psychological issues.
But that’s not Ethan’s fault and so Danny is being a dick to him. Mike’s feelings aren’t relevant here because he’s not in this discussion, Ethan’s are because he is.
My assumption is, though it hasn’t been made as clear as Mike’s damage to Amber, that Mike messing with Ethan has helped damage him as well.
Just having that much emotionally invested in someone you’re maybe 50% sure is your friend will mess with you.
That’s not Ethan’s fault, but it is grounds to argue he’d be better off without Mike around.
Which Danny is doing in about the worst possible way.
Yeah, count me in for another “Danny is not actually wrong here” team. I don’t dislike Mike because I understand his role in the narrative but for Danny, he’s an annoying, irrepentant bully. Danny’s feeling do count and for the first time ever he has decided to stand by them instead of letting them be trampled.
That being said, the timing could have been better.
Yep. I’m happy Danny was able, for once, to say what he really thought about someone, even if that hurt and will ruin forever a possible relationship. And this is connected by all the previous discussions about ow people really able to change and redeem themselves, but the others are not obliged to pardon them, made with Ruth.
Considering Danny is BFFS with Joe, I don’t think he really gets to comment on other peoples jerky friends…
I can’t believe how hard he’s Dan’ing this up
It’s a new record for him.
Or deep down, he really doesn’t want to be with Ethan. /s
I mean at this point I guess doubling down is the only option
Okay, not gonna lie, I’m really hating Danny right now.
Y’all get that he’s still not being half as shitty as Mike is to them on a regular basis, right?
Like yeah, he’s being a jerk, but woooof.
Sorta sounds like his best friend Joe :V
Quick idea, Danny: What if, just a suggestion, what if you stuff your mouth with that hat and shut up?
I’m confused at this point. Do they want to make out or not. Cause all this talk of Mike and whether on not his grand gesture redeems his lifetime of being a dick is a real mood killer.
Ethan I feel won’t wanna make out with danny for awhile
Make outs could still come somehow. Probably not in the way I expect. But Danny is basically pointing out the elephant in the room at this point. And at bottom, what he’s saying is, “I care about you and Amber and want you to be treated respectfully.” That’s his issue with Mike.
He’s doing a terrible job treating Ethan respectfully himself right now by implying (at best) that his grief over his friend maybe dying is misdirected.
I want Amber’s Mike ghost to show up and haunt Danny for a while. Yeah. That’s the ticket.
Ain’t nevvah gonna happen, tho’.
Dammit, Danny.
Lmao choosing to double down using fictional parallels is a pretty shitty response, wtf Danno
Look, I’m the last person to say that Danny has to forgive Mike or think kindly of him, but I’m also a fan of ‘this is someone who’s been his friend for ages, HAVE SOME GODDAMNED TACT AND DON’T SAY THAT OUT LOUD.’
Yeah…like…he’s not actually wrong in what he says. But this is really not the time or place to say it, and not the person to say it to.
Seriously, Ethan’s not in there because Mike’s parents just arrived and need privacy. Ethan showed up today to Amber holding vigil and hearing yet more indications that witnessing this was so traumatizing it ripped her psyche a new one. Ethan is not just reeling from one of his best friends being in a coma, he’s watching how it’s impacting all the other people in Mike’s life, too.
And even if Ethan were literally the only person who cared about Mike whatsoever, it would still be STAGGERINGLY bad form to say this to him right there while the wound’s still fresh. Not if you want to stay friends with him, at least.
I’m waiting for the part where it matters that he’s right or wrong when he just wished someone to NOT WAKE UP FROM A COMA
I’m waiting for the part where literally anybody but you said that.
No one’s saying he’s in the right for saying that. Everyone agrees it was a shitty thing for Danny to say.
Yeah, it’s a shitty thing to say. Sometimes people say shitty things in the heat of a moment and that’s one thing. It’s particularly shitty to say to his worried best friend.
I mean… Danny is explicitly wrong. I know it’s a hobby around here to act like Mike is the antichrist but… he’s just kind of a dick.
I don’t care how much of a meanie meanpants you think someone is, they really don’t deserve to be seriously injured.
Spent 5 years deliberately prodding Amber to make her more dangerous. Worsening her trauma and mental illness.
That’s more than “kind of a dick” or “meanie meanpants”. I don’t think he deserves to be seriously injured, but I sure as hell think Ethan’s better off without him around.
Barring his realization actually changing him, of course.
Joe isn’t always the nicest either, but Danny has still been his friend for years. He probably wouldn’t respond well if one of the girls from his “Do List” said Joe is better off thrown from a roof and comatose
That’s actually a very good point! I hope someone will make this comparison to Danny (not necessarily Ethan, but maybe someone else), because it seems Danny’s clearly to self-centered here (in this moment) to be able to look at Mike’s situation from Ethan’s perspective.
also….
I just realised, my name seems quite too topic specific and somewhat tone deaf, but I promise, I had it before this storyline
(it’s a combination of letters from my name, so…)
This is the ideal Danny. You may not like it but this is what peak Danning looks like.
Weirdly, I think Danny may actually be as big an asshole as Mike.
Now I ship them.
That takes some true talent to say something cruel by mistake, and then actively make it so much worse. Dude was kind of rude to you and messed with your head a little when he saw you. A coma that may be a precursor to permanent brain damage is not proportionate retribution in the slightest. Saying something in that vein to the guy’s friend, who is in an incredibly fragile state of mind, is just willfully cruel and shows a serious case of ‘protagonist worldview’.
As in ‘this really bad thing doesn’t matter because it happened to someone I don’t really like and I don’t understand why my Love Interest cares because only my feelings about the guy matter’.
This! This! I was trying to figure out how to describe Danny’s mindset and you nailed it! He’s 100% got the Protagonist rose-colored lenses.
Hah, I actually got it from a friend, from back when I was a barista. I didn’t understand why a particular regular was always so condescending to us, acting like he knew us better than we did. (“Us” being two women who were in their late twenties at the time, and she was/is even married) I really didn’t get it, until she very neatly explained he suffered from “protagonist syndrome”. We weren’t people with our own lived experiences and motivations to him, we were just props in his story. Whenever we behaved in a way that didn’t “fit” our assigned roles to him, he felt the need to “correct” us. Nothing proved her point better than when he asked about her after she left the store, and I told him she no longer worked there. He immediately started up on how “her attitude” was never going to work long but she’d learn –
At which point I, since I was so tired of him by this point, interrupted him to inform him she’d left retail because she’d finished her degree and was now working as the office manager of a private practice. I cannot describe his face accurately, but it was kind of amazing for me to realize he genuinely believed that we had lives separate from our interactions with him.
Wow! That’s an attitude that… explains a lot actually.
I suppose people in customer service bear the brunt of it.
I think my most bizarre interaction with him was when another regular was having a conversation with me about something that had occurred at mosque. I was volunteering with a summer gardening program for the kids there, so I was of course interested in all the gossip. He asked if I was a Muslim. (Which is kind of nosy, but considering the context, I let it go) I very matter-of-factly responded that I’m an atheist. (Also a horticulturist and a nanny at points in my life, thus why I was asked to help out at the mosque)
To which he responded with, as I said, a very /bizarre/ thing. “You are a very angry person.” He said it in the most smug, I-am-a-very-smart-man tone, and I just…looked at him? Because I could not see how he got that from anything in the conversation. (The gossip was innocuous, “Mrs. So-and-So is bossing around the imam”, typical house-of-worship goings on)
But as I said, protagonist syndrome. In his mind, all atheists are angry. So even though he did not know me outside of ordering coffee, I was now a very angry person. Even when the other person tried to intervene, saying I was the most mellow person he knew, Rob just said, “No, she’s very angry.”
I mean, I was irritated at that point. But mostly it was just bizarre.
That is… impressively awful. Wow.
Rob was pretty impressive in his awfulness, but his awfulness was mostly just annoying. Since, well. None of us actually cared about Rob. I had completely forgotten him until now. Which, now that I think about it, would probably really aggravate him, so there’s that!
Rob: You don’t remember me?! But I said you were a very angry person!
March: But for me it was – oh, you know how this goes (and also the chat censors the full version).
I mean, let him be forgotten except as occasional comment anecdotes.
(Does it still? I seem to recall some of the filters have maybe been lifted recently. But for me it was Tuesday.)
Oh hey it WAS uncensored it looks like!… We should use this knowledge wisely.
Yesss…. Wisely….
>_>
<_<
*spams*
“Being a jerk SOMETIMES?” Uh, only time he wasn’t a complete asshole was when he was sleeping.
Honestly, I’m surprised he made it to this point in his life without being stabbed or beaten.
Wow, Danny. He threw you a rope and you managed to hang yourself with it.
Quite impressive, really.
Danny my man you blew it, retreat.
I feel a great disturbance in the Force.
as if a hundred commenters are crying out
and will not be silenced
Boo I messed up the quote. But still. I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if a hundred commenters were crying out in pain. Gosh.
that’s okay i thought it was on purpose and made it funnier because we’re gonna complain about this for AWHILE
We ARE.
Damn it Danny, you had another moment to think and instead of running it back you doubled down.
I get it though, one good deed doesn’t erase all the Terrible Things a person has done in their past. Which is true but Mike is barely an antaganist not a straight up bad guy like so many other people we’ve seen. We’ve seen a Mother sell out her own daughter and nearly get her killed, father’s kidnap their on kids along with their friends in order to threatened their lives in order to get them to come home, people drive others to suicide by blackmailing them and not care afterwards, oh and also murder. Compared to all that what Mike has done in this AU has just made him look like some bitter angry prick who like to stir the pot.
I think I missed some strips. Driven to suicide via blackmail?
She didn’t succeed, but Mary was actively blackmailing Ruth which contributed to her reaching an active suicidal ideation state, prompting Carla to out Billie and Ruth’s relationship to the hall because it was the only way she could think of to disarm Mary’s blackmail. (I think Ruth was only a few steps shy of that pre-blackmail, but still. Mary was COMPLETELY unrepentant and actually told the other dormites to maybe wait before they got Chloe and ‘consider their options’ in a way everyone immediately recognized as a euphemism for further blackmail.)
I think that’s a reference to the Mary and Ruth storyline.
Apparently you did. The action goes something like this:
Mary is irritated by Carla’s exuberance and rollerskating. Mary decides to use the fact Carla is trans against her. Ruth is having none of it and slaps her down. Mary realizes that Billie is living with Ruth and uses this fact to blackmail Ruth into letting her do what she wants to Carla. Ruth temporary backs down leaving Carla as collateral damage, but moves Billie out so Mary has no blackmail ammunition. Ruth is already barely able to deal with depression and without Billie’s support attempts suicide. Billie, true to their mutual suicide pact, and unwilling to live in a world without Ruth attempts suicide as well. Carla, realizing what is happening, tattles to the authorities and saves their lives.
Oddly enough, neither becomes a super-villain out to get Carla and she remains mostly unpunished for her good reads. Some may find this unrealistic.
Good deeds. Also twice ninjad.
Mostly I’d say that Mary was irritated by Carla’s existence as trans and used the exuberance and skating as an excuse.
I think “irritated” is the wrong word. Mary looks like the type that is actually GLAD transfolk exist because they’re an easy demographic for her to bigot at.
I mean, part of her aaaaaand… dude-she’s-smooching-atm-and-whose-name-I-can’t-recal-nor-do-I-care-to kink appears to be “oh, we are so much purer than other people”.
It’s sort of like Theresa of (but not actually from) Calcutta was so glad that poor, suffering people existed because that let her show how compassionate she was (she really wasn’t).
I think a difference is that none of the others are friends with Mary or any of the parents. They don’t get to hang out with our heroes. I do sympathise with Danny a bit. Like, it’s absolutely terrible timing, but I’ve been in groups which have had an absolute 100% arsehole in them and I’ve always thought “why is this guy hanging out with us? He makes everything more unpleasant by his presence.”
Mary may be the worst person in the world but I wouldn’t go to her family and tell her, “I’m glad she’s dead.”
Because I’d still be a s-heel.
And it would be doubly so if Mary somehow went into a coma pushing Ruth or Carla out of a speeding car.
LIVE WITH INTEGRITY. NO REGRETS.Watching this hurts more than Schlock Mercenary concluding after being a daily part of my life for a decade and a half. So thanks for the distraction, Willis.
I don’t think any of you are on their wavelength right now. Especially the hyper judgey ones.
I’m not even sure what a hyper judgey wavelength looks like, much less able to figure out who it belongs to.
Seriously, I think Dan and Ethan are having a different conversation than the one people are talking about. The fact that Ethan isn’t actually angry at Danny in this strip shows that Ethan, on some level, “gets it”. I expect Danny in the next comic will say “Yes, they always have been. And Mike treated them like his playthings so I am less concerned for his well-being.” It’s a terribly terribly shitty thing to say and Mike has consistently been a terribly terribly shitty person.
I think it also illustrates Danny actually doesn’t care about ethan as a person, only as a romantic ideal. Danny is interested in Ethan for his body and geek cred, not that Ethan is suffering here.
Or just possibly, Danny’s concerned that Ethan’s suffering over someone who’s always treated him like shit.
Witness Danny’s last talk with Mike.
All about what he’s done to Ethan and Amber, Danny’s own feelings.
Ethan got it at first, and he wasn’t angry, but he’s upset when Danny continues to badtalk Mike in front of someone [Ethan] who cares about him. Danny thinks Mike treated people like their feelings don’t matter, but Danny is kinda treating Ethan like his feelings don’t matter right now.
I find it ironic that he tried to make a point using star wars as if that should stick, but on the same tic discredited his own analogy by pointing out the entire scenario is fictional. Kind of trying to have it both ways there.
The harder you squeeze an analogy, the more it will slip through your fingers.
Danny is failing here because he’s going AGAINST Star Wars.
Because the point is, “The man Luke loved [his father] died saving him and the galaxy so he had good in him.”
And Danny is, “I don’t care. Off to Force Hell with him.”
Well, I would say that’s on a different line of thought. Ethan pointed out Mike hurt people’s feelings sometimes but didn’t cause the destruction of an entire planet. Danny pointed out the planet was fictional and the feelings weren’t. So the point is that Mike should be more hateable. To Ethan, I guess? But then that means he’s saying Ethan isn’t feeling how Danny thinks he should be feeling. I really don’t think Danny is intentionally insinuating anything like that.
So maybe you’re right, he’s just scrapping the metaphor entirely and making a bitter comment to further his “woe is me” (“woe is us”?) mentality. But technically, if you don’t preclude Danny being a massive and purposeful jerk, the metaphor could be intact.
Ironically, Danny’s dialogue here is the kind of thing Mike might say, only delivered less effectively.
2020 is the Danny of years: the longer it goes, the worse it gets.
Ethan’s last line there could lead…so many directions. Some in Danny’s favor, some extremely not.
Like in that Ethan might have realized that his feelings for Mike are real.
Ethan/Mike endgame ship?
It’d be surprising, but shockingly, I think I’d be onboard. I’m a sucker for ‘evil jerk man’/‘heart of gold man’ pairings.
God I hope not. Ethan’s a sucker for Mike. At least in SP!, Amber was able to stand up to him and meet him on his level.
Ethan’s shown no signs of it.
I took it as basically Ethan saying “My feelings of caring for Mike are real and you are not considering my feelings right now.” But we will see.
This
I did too.
Ugh. You had a chance to fix it, Danny. Ethan was giving you an out and you’re fucking it up!
If he were any other guy, he’d have probably punched you in the face. He still might!
Legit, a clean out and he’s like “yeah but darth vader”
Yeah, at first I thought Ethan lifting his arm in the first panel meant he was about to throw a punch.
I am expecting that in the next comic.
Only if he says, “The Sparrow Flies South for Winter” beforehand.
Fuck, Danny.
Danny is officially the worst fucking person in this comic AFTER ETHAN GAVE YOU A FUCKING OUT!
HE WAS GOING TO GIVE YOU THE EASY WAY OUT DANNY YOU FUCKING IDIOT
Considering some of the flat-out antagonists, I don’t know that he’s the worst person.
He may be the dumbest boy in all the land, though.
Yeah I wouldn’t go as far as to say “Worst character ever” it just feels more like one of those times when you see a very ugly side to a person and you frustrated with them because you know they’re capable of being better than that.
And that’s good because that’s another way a story and its characters can be more relatable to real life.
Okay I’m excluding the psychopaths who kidnap young adults and their accomplices.
Malaya literally vored Quimby just a few chapters ago. Are you just gonna ignore that?
The mayor or the rock band?
Or else Carol would take that cake.
Danny is many things.
‘fucking idiot’ is one of them.
I’d say Danny is now Joe-levels of awful in that he wants Ethan to ignore Mike’s situation and be prepped for being his romantic partner. Danny is irritated Ethan is not in the mood for a grand romantic gesture.
So, yes, he’s every bit as much a douchebag as the guy with the D-List.
A toxic manipulative partner.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Danny still tries to confess now, since that’s probably the most effective way to further Dan this situation into oblivion. I’m even a fan of Danny, but what the heck man.
OH NO.
I was assuming this argument would prevent it but you’re right, he might try to segue from “our feelings are real” right into his confession.
I thought I shipped Danny and Ethan, but now I want this to happen while firmly believing it would be disaster, so I guess I don’t ship them that hard?
It’s less of a ship, more of a leaky canoe.
All I ask for is a Danny/Ethan moment, however ill-advised… maybe Danny decides to kiss Ethan, say… and then whatever inevitable chasm that brings between the two, so be it! 😛
well Ethan sure was converted real fast lol
Question? Would anyone else not care if Willis just stopped doing comments? I mean, most of them are all the same everyday anyway and not having to moderate them would give him more time to spend with his kids. Personally, I think Willis should only allow comments once a week, which would allow for a more critical analysis of the comic by comments and would keep Willis from having to stay up deleting shit every day.
I mean alternatively you could just not..read the comments.
If Some1’s concern is legit about Willis having more time to do other things, that doesn’t really solve the issue.
Personally, I like the comment section and forums or comment sections are something I find interesting about webcomics in general. That said, if Willis felt a change was better for their overall wellbeing, then sure.
Maybe it’d be helpful for him to take on volunteer admins? Ones that can moderate comments and nothing else?
Yeah, that would be less than helpful. I wouldn’t have thought about or understood a lot of concepts that are now just Common Sense to me, if it weren’t for this comments section. I had no idea where to start looking, or even that there were terms for the nebulous concepts to look for, but this community made it accessible and doesn’t coddle my ignorance.
I doubt I’m the only one.
I don’t have an opinion on what Willis should do with his comments section. But I know that I often don’t enjoy the comments here. They often feel somewhat toxic, as in judgey, absolutist, thought policing etc. It may not deteriorate in the way that Facebook or some reddit forums do, but I often feel worse off for reading some of them. True of almost any comments section, but especially disappointing here because my ex who introduced me to this comic said that the comments section was a really wonderful place. I think its changed.
It’s been a rough time, lately. People are short on/out of patience for a lot of the behaviors exhibited in the comic. That’s definitely magnified certain responses and attitudes in the comments, I agree.
Thanks for acknowledging that. I recognize a certain hypocrisy in me, because I talk a lot of crap about a certain fictional character in a show I’ve recently started watching (The Walking Dead – only on S3E2, trying not to get spoiled and it’s hard). Like when I watch that show I am very quick to say “They should just kill [anyone who seems to be posing a threat].” But it feels different to me, because that is a post-apocalyptic survival show where killing is “on the menu.” Wishing violence on people in this comic feels very different to me because it is not the same setting at all. Or at least, that’s one possible reason I am uncomfortable with violence in one and not the other.
My take on it is they’re fictional characters. If it’s not okay to wish bad things on them, then I’d need to stop watching because most antagonists on my shows tend to end up dead or at least beaten in a fight and I’d not wish death or injury on someone in real life. Interestingly, I find myself in the opposite situation you do – when I look at settings like that, I sometimes find myself being more critical ethics wise, because I end up thinking about ‘what can you ethically justify in the name of survival’ and I generally believe that if everyone’s in a bad spot, then everyone is owed at least a little compassion, decency, understanding and mercy and you should help someone out if you can. So I often find myself feeling a character’s overreacted and didn’t need to harm someone even if they did, at first glance, seem like a threat.
As for the comment section – well, it’s a comment section. It’s better than others in some ways – for example, I tend to find more understanding of systemic marginalization on here than other forums on average. That said, it’s always had its issues. For example, when Sal first snapped at Walky that their parents were racist? Or when Carla was fighting with Mary? Things were awful.
Personally, for me, it comes down to the strip being discussed. For instance, I love Danny but I’m not loving his actions in this particular strip. Since this particular strip is what’s being discussed, I may be harsher with Danny than I am in other strips because in this particular strip, he’s being an assbucket.
I come back here day after day for the comic and because Willis is a wonderful story teller who makes me think. But some days I enjoy the comments as much as the comic. Without the comment section I wouldn’t know Cerberus or Ana or Emperor Norton or Rose or Yotomoe. And I’d miss the heck out of the Doctor and BBCC and Yummi and theJeff and Bike Bill and A. Mouse and Bagge and Butts and D. Taffy and Needfuldoer and Opus and Plasma M. and Regally and Reltzik (who I can never keep straight because they both start with R) and Agemegos and you know this is going to be a very long list and then I’m going to be really mad at myself for leaving out somebody I’d really miss and so I’ll just stop.
But I wouldn’t want ether Willis or the comic (or his family, but especially not the comic) to suffer because of the comments being a time sink. But I figure that Willis is a big boy who knows what he’s doing and has been doing it awhile and if he ever needs to pull the plug, he will.
And no sooner do I read through it than I go, I didn’t mention HeySo or King Dan. We’ll see if I have enough willpower to stop making additions as they pop into my mind.
I’m sporadic enough in my posting habits that I couldn’t fault anyone for forgetting about me. Rather, given how most of my posts are wall-of-texts relating to technical elements, I’m mostly just surprised that I left a positive mark in someone’s mind. It seems I all too often I unintentionally invoke contention by way of topical misunderstandings here, as well, so I’m especially gratified that my presence is being taken positively (as my own aims are targetted to the drama-aversive, quippy, and two-way educational).
tl;dr: Thanks for the mention. ^.^
You and King D., while very different, both tend to bring up interesting things. I’d miss you.
I’m guessing that “A. Mouse” refers to Anon A Mouse rather than me, probably.
Although I could imagine some people don’t realize that is a different person who just also happens to have the Amber avatar. Especially since I have another, less lazy version of this username (“a snow ʍousɐ”), so you might easily think that they’re just another variant username. (Also, my name started as “anonymous” and gradually evolved into this.) But actually it is a different person. The more you know, as Reading Rainbow says.
Maybe I should set up a gravatar on this email? My other email doesn’t work for commenting anymore iirc.
(but also maybe you did realize it and my comments just aren’t as insightful as the other mouse’s. this is perfectly understandable. i’m sure i don’t have as much relevant life experience as a lot of other commenters.)
I have to admit that my sometimes defective mind had conflated you all into one mouse. Sorry.
I would miss you too <3
I think he’d be more likely to implement a comment system with trusted moderators than permanently close the comments entirely. Of course that depends on how much actual moderation he has to do here. It seems like the bulk of it is whitelisting new users. Occasionally a comment needs to be deleted, or the odd shithead filters through, but it seems like he’d miss roasting them after swinging the ban hammer.
A solid community has built up in here, which is good for viewer engagement and investment. Reading comics without comments just seems lonely now…
Yeah, given Willis has given no indication I can see they’re fed up with comment moderating (and it’s not a super-heavy moderation to begin with, they rarely feel the need to intervene with established commentors,) whitelisting new ones and shutting them down preemptively (or early, on the rare occasions it does get unexpectedly heated) seems to be working well for them. Take a break if need be – lord knows I have on occasion when I realize I’m getting too worked up about a current plot point – but if Willis is fine with it, Willis is fine with it.
Also, the occasional New Commenter Who Will Not Pass The Newbie Filter dunks over on Twitter tend to be highly amusing in their ‘… Okay I have QUESTIONS here.’ (The last one I recall was, like, an overzealous Yang supporter, months back, who was bringing it up apropos of nothing and had multiple such comments? And was quite… heated in their opinions of how whatever storyline related to their preferred candidate. Or something like that. Could’ve been a different candidate, like I said it was a WHILE ago. I know there’ve been more recent Filter Dunks.)
Never thought it’d be possible for me to hate a character more than Malaya, but here we are!
My tipping point is the Darth Vader analogy. Like, Jesus Christ Dan, there’s gotta be a better time.
…you hate Danny more than Mike?
Mike, the guy who says stuff worse than this on the regular, for laughs?
Your premise is, as far as I’m aware, entirely baseless but, yes, Danny strikes me as being more dislikable in his behaviors than either Malaya and Mike, both of whom are rather forthright in their negative behavior.
Mike cuts at your personal weak points, so you just gotta have self-awareness to avoid taking any hits from that. Rather, he’s given the impression that he mostly just hates hypocrisy and the rest is just done out of general habit, so he’d probably leave you alone in the first place if you have decent self-awareness. I believe we also haven’t seen him make any non-personal blows, aside from ‘your mom’ aspects.
Malaya presents herself as stupidly self-absorbed as Danny (or perhaps even moreso), but at least she makes that clear from the start. Danny basically stabs you in the back with it, at the most sensitive times, in the worst possible way. Malaya’d at least be brusque and matter-of-fact and short with it, as opposed to Danny just slapping Ethan in the face about it over-and-over with entitlement.
If you’re not seeing that then, well, it’s something you should give consideration, because it’s a mindset a lot of people’d have on such matters. That isn’t to say you necessarily need to change your personal evaluations, it’s just to say it’s good to be aware there’s a notable alternative evaluation you may come across.
Though, of course, if I’m misrecalling and Mike did have a scene where he wished death, coma, or other savagery on someone then, by all means, point it out.
Well, at least Danny still isn’t anywhere near to Mary’s level, so that’s a relief for everyone..
Mike, as far as I recall has not “wished death, coma, or other savagery on someone”. He did however spend years poking Amber’s bear to turn her into a timebomb to use against her dad. As he admitted and later realized was horrible during that fight.
He spend the last 5 years deliberately making Amber’s trauma and mental illness worse. That’s worse by far than what Danny’s saying here.
Again, I’ve repeatedly clarified that I’m talking quality versus quantity.
Further, you’re comparing the immature actions of a damaged child with the deliberate, fully aware actions of a young adult. Again, not excusing Mike’s behaviors but, honestly, it feels like you’re desperately trying to paint Mike as a villain without compare, when all we’ve really seen so far is that he’s a mess, the same as both of his best friends.
Moreover, again, both Ethan and Amber are fully aware of who and what Mike is, and Mike never hides that from new relations, either. Danny is deliberately coming in at the worst time, to hit in the worst way, as a complete suckerpunch.
Again, we can allow for subjectivity on some things, or even factor in quantity, but it’s really damn hard to say that Danny’s behavior here is decidedly better than Mike’s history.
While it seems clear to me that Mike is less problematic than Danny- and certainly seems less egotistical about things- at the very least we’re playing a game of “comparing which dictator/abuser/etc is worse”.
Ultimately, we’re still comparing people who’re engaging in awful practices, and it doesn’t really matter which is worse. Which, again, makes Danny a hypocrite, on top of being an insensitive, self-absorbed, simple-minded, immature, horny brat.
Seriously, you can argue subjective points, but defending Danny here was basically impossible to begin with from the first comic, it’s definitely eyebrow-raising, head-scratchingly confusing after the additional progression.
And as soon as we acknowledge that both Danny and Mike are on the same framework, regardless of what level they’re on, we have to acknowledge that Mike did just risk his life for his friend, and Danny- who hasn’t done anything comparable and, rather, has mostly just been a burden on everyone around him- is shitting all over that from a high-horse position.
Really, after that, I don’t see how anyone could find Danny more reasonable than Mike. That’s just a thoroughly toxic outlook on Danny’s part.
Danny has said a bad thing.
Mike deliberately manipulated a mentally ill traumatized girl into being more dangerous. And did not simply do so when he was a “damaged child”, but continued to do so up until the present. It was apparently still part of his plan right up until the confrontation where he saw how close it was to what Blaine was saying.
Even if he was subtler about it and there is no simple quote that looks worse, there is no comparison.
Don’t you get it? That’s just Mike’s personality! But he did a heroic thing! So now him being a complete shit to everyone doesn’t matter anymore! Malaya is just the same by the way, if you can’t manage a basic level of respect towards others just go live on an island.
To get a bit meta, I think it’s part of how we deal with fiction. We like it when scoundrels reveal a heart of gold a lot more than when perfectly nice people reveal their flaws.
Yeah, I’m kind of astounded sometimes at how this comment section will defend abusers because “that’s just how they are” or “but they’re trying to get better”, and then even worse, will claim someone who spends most of their time in comic looking out for others as “the worst ever” for…bad timing.
Like shit, y’all trying to claim Mike has never rubbed someone’s nose in something when they’re already down? *Mike*?
And then calling it “completely baseless” that Mike has said worse shit? Come on here. Aside from “would it be so terrible [if Mike stayed in a coma a bit longer]” not being worse than “opening yourself up to love makes you abusive like your dad”, just come on.
yep. Mike is…harsh, but usually at least honest. Danny is vindictive under the guise of pretending he’s nice. I find the latter much worse.
Mike was more than just sometimes a little rude to Danny, though. Isn’t the whole reason he started sleeping with Ethan that he noticed Danny wanted him? Mike saw a guy who was just about to come out and started banging Ethan not because he was into him, but as an actively aggressive gesture of malice to pain Danny and to set himself up to mess with Ethan later.
If you’re Danny and you believe this guy in only sleeping with Ethan in order to hurt him later, then yeah, you hope he stays in his coma.
If that is why Mike had sex with Ethan, then all the more reason for Danny to hate him, though does Danny actually know about that? I don’t remember.
I appreciate the empathy for Danny. I like Danny; he’s one of my favorite characters and I am fatigued by all the trash talk of him, now and in general.
He wavered on whether to seduce Ethan or Danny to make the other jealous then opted for seducing Ethan because Ethan asked him not to do ‘Mike Things’ to Danny.
He seemed to give up on that plan though because he actually had real feels for Ethan. He only slept with Ethan once and that gave Ethan a confidence boost to go be with other people.
Danny has absolutely no reason to think it was done specifically to hurt him or Ethan though because Mike has never mentioned it to him to try to make him jealous or hurt him (Danny’s jealousy developed on its own without Mike specific influence) and Ethan was off banging other guys left and right, casually, which makes it hard to say Mike did it to hurt Ethan when it seemed to only be a positive for Ethan.
So not only does Danny NOT know of this plan’s existence. But outside of it, Mike has done nothing in particular to Danny. He lied to him back when Dorothy first got together with Walky which Danny did not believe but he has otherwise not done anything in particular to hurt Danny himself. Danny can still dislike/hate him for his general behaviour, but apart from annoying him a couple of times, Mike has done very little to Danny.
It’s hard to say he gave up on the plan when he followed through with it and it was successful. He slept with Ethan and that boost of confidence led Ethan to play the field which clearly made Danny jealous. Plan succeeded.
Now, it does seem like Mike’s own feels got involved and it wound up hurting him as well.
Dannys definatly bitter here about ethan not hooking up with him but that is not mikes fault. Ethan could have gone right to danny after mike, he chose to sleep with other guys instead. Danny could have approched ethan directly once he learned he was out, instead he just got quiet and resentful. This strip is pretty much about danny not knowing how to deal with his own security.
Nonetheless, Mike didn’t give up on that plan, even when he had feels for Ethan.
A shitty thing to say and a shittier time and place to say it.
But, in a twisted way, I sort of respect Danny for not back-pedaling here.
He’s already opened up this of conversation, better to finish pulling band-aid off. More honest too.
Though come on Danny. I know you were going for the pop culture reference, but that exagerated, strawman example was the best you could do? The comparison is such a poor fit it both indercuts your point and makes you look that much worse for implyinh they are comparable.
Did… did Danny just somehow danny this back around to getting a love confession out of Ethan?
No. Danny tried to use an exaggerated example to emphasize how Mike’s heroic act doesn’t absolve him of the abuse he dishes out because even if all Mike ultimately hurts are peoples’ feelings, that’s still important.
Ethan has turned that around to point out (a) Danny is hurting Ethan’s feelings by saying this and/or (b) Ethan has strong, unresolved feelings for Mike.
Unless you meant a love confession for someone else, then 66-33 odds.
I can understand Ethan. My feelings would also be hurt if anyone were to tell me that Alderaan is fictional.
I mean, it got destroyed…
Sorry, but that kinda makes it a fictional place, now, either way. :S
Carthage was destroyed, but remains historical not fictional.
If we’re being technical their feelings are as fictional as Alderaan. You’re in a comic, Dan.
Very true. Where’s Deadpool when you need him, lol
[Intense Moral Value Judgement Regarding Portrayed Character]
Anyway, some creators I followed and sorta looked up to in some ways were outed for abusive and exploitative behavior yesterday, so now I’m not sure how to feel about most of the content they were attached to.
That sucks. It hurts when your heroes turn out to be villainous.
Luckily, it was only two people out of that improv troupe, and the rest were more or less unanimously against them. One offered a sort of longish apology, but it comes across as mildly insincere. I’m just sorta worried I won’t be able to enjoy the things they were in, which is a pretty big chunk of the content, knowing what was happening behind the scenes.
may i ask who?
oop never mind i took too long to ask that sorry
Too long because you saw it yourself, or for some other reason?
once “improv troupe” was mentioned i realized it didn’t mean i’d need to change my entertainment habits. you can still say, i just also don’t know if asking was rude because i’m bad at social skills sorry
Nah, it’s nothing to apologise for. More specifically, I’m referring to a couple from a group called Snapcube/Clownhouse. Their big draw is a series called Real-Time Fandub Games but they also do Let’s Play stuff. It’s a wholly LGBTQ+ group, so there’s a lot of queer-friendly content.
…some creators I followed and sorta looked up to in some ways were outed for abusive and exploitative behavior…
Feels like there’s a lot of that going around lately.
It really does. One of my siblings has been really upset since Cryaotic was outed as a groomer.
Empathy for Ethan aside, Danny, even from a purely selfish point of view: do you want to get laid or do you want to win this argument right now? Because you are set to fail at both.
Probably better for him to not have sex with Ethan while his unresolved feelings about Mike are unexpressed – that coming out after a tryst would be even worse.
Doubling down is not the way to go!!!
Danny is really screwing this up.
Ethan is taking this better then I would
Just stop, Danny. Willis must have felt a “I am angry right now, so I must punch my favorite narrative punchbag”.
Ah yes, when in doubt, double-down.
Boy! Ah say boy! Shaddup!
Something came up on tha hacked Muzak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxhwM06lLUs
Danny! He threw you a ROPE! Why was your first instinct, then, TO KEEP DIGGING THAT HOLE?!
Because, let’s face it, deep down that’s exactly who Danny is.
What, the first thing you think of when someone tosses you a rope isn’t to immediately hang yourself with it? How very strange you are! >.>
Sorry Danny, I will have to ask you to hand in your ‘good egg’ card until further notice.
He’s started to smell a bit … bad.
Danny’s exhibiting some seriously self-centered behavior right now, but I honestly don’t think he’s a bad person overall. I think he just has a hard time seeing outside of his personal bubble still. He showed signs of this even back at the beginning with Dorothy, when they broke up. He had no concept of the idea that when Dorothy pictured her life, she could picture it without him, and even preferred that picture. This is kind of a version of that with much higher stakes. Because he doesn’t care about Mike, he can’t understand that Ethan deeply loves him (as a friend at the very least). That doesn’t line up with Danny’s worldview, so it can’t be right, and he’s “correcting” Ethan.
Which disappoints me because I felt like he was experiencing some growth after the stuff with Amber. I don’t think that growth is gone. I think he’s just being a jerk right now.
He had a bit of it with amber as well, some moments of “I can’t believe what you see in a guy like me”-moments that reframed her situations into his situations.
Given all the shit amber had going on, you could claim that it was justified, and in any event it drowned in her drama, but Danny’s abysmal sense of self worth has always made him a bit prone to dismiss other peoples’ internal struggle.
He is still a pretty good egg, even if he right now have problem with not shutting his mouth when he really should be shutting his mouth, but being a bit self-centered is a consistent problem.
It also feels a bit like that moment when Joe accused Rachel of leaking the List and her pointing out how awful it’d be to do so after a rapist nearly broke into the building counts here – something that Danny had never thought of before and took it from ‘gross but essentially harmless’ to ‘holy shit yeah that’s awful.’
I had forgotten that, but yeah, you’re right.
Issue Danny a “curate’s egg” card!
oh, good, danny’s perfectly hateable once more. all is right with the world. y’know except for mike being in the coma, I’m not gonna categorize that as all being right with the world because I’m not danny
I’m not sure, but maybe the point is that sometimes we’re all Danny.
Hell, I ain’t. I got my own whole list of things I fuck up on, thank you very much. 😛
Though I suppose it also depends on how broadly you’re applying the comparison, since there’s obviously going to be a level of description where overlap is pretty universal. But as far as his specific approach to things.. that’s completely foreign to me, and thank goodness for that.
I have enough complications with interactions (for one thing, not everyone is apprecative of my compulsion to properly wrap up topics, especially when those topics are ones people’ve decided midway through they no longer want to talk about) without actively taking an approach that could be considered as coming from an entitled, self-absorbed dick. -.-;
Y’all get Mike says worse shit than this on the reg, right?
Yep, I totally remember Mike saying “Let’s absolve those who abuse power of all responsability, burn the cities, and murder all the puppies.” Was that not what you meant by “worse”? Well, there’s only a handful of other things at the same level, so it shouldn’t take long to guess which you actually meant.
Seriously, I don’t have any recollection of Mike getting at all near to Danny’s present level [be it by intent, context, or associated subject], nevermind exceeding it.
There’s some subjectivity to these things but, given how extreme the present matter is (across all three aspects I noted just above), I feel as though Mike hasn’t even had the opportunity to match Danny’s present antics, even if he’d actively wanted to.
Rather, Mike reminds me a bit of Diogenes. Rude, dismissive, DGAF attitude towards everyone, but not actively wicked. Here, Danny is definitely crossing lines and, as we very clearly saw at the end of yesterday’s comment, he’s fully aware he’s doing so, and he’s doing so solely for his own self-satisfaction.
Mike, on the other hand, seems to have a high level of empathic recognition (even if he doesn’t necessarily have empathic valuation), and does things with full awareness of the other invididual. Thus far, that seems to have kept him from crossing any lines.
Hell, even if you take the “butting into anyone else’s business is equally bad” perspective, that’d also only make Mike and Danny equal. Again, just not seeing how it’s possible for Mike to exceed Danny.
Besides, your argument has no value as such in the first place, given that “Person A being a dick” doesn’t ever excuse “Person B being a dick”. That’s how we get to “Let’s burn it all down” territory.
Dude, Mike made several tapes of Walky crying just to rub them in his face.
Still not seeing “actively wishing ill” in that. If that was after a break-up, it’d at least hit the timing criteria (context), but it’d still miss the severity of associated subject and the clear malicious [more accurately, that in the sense of versus pranking/teasing/light to moderate bullying] intent. There’s still no clear basis to put it above Danny’s present behavior. Again, Mike easily wins on quantity, but he hasn’t ever matched this level of severity, that I can recall.
Frankly, if “several tapes of you crying” is as extreme to a given person as “people coming to your coma bed to tell your close relations that they wish you’d never wakeup”, I’d have to seriously wonder at how that person evaluates such things.
Fundamentally, “several tapes of you crying” is still in the realm of “petty abuse”, while this is in the realm of “light abuse”. In the broader scope of things, neither one is inherently consequentional, but this clearly is a step above.
Of course, that’s not to dismiss petty abuse in and of itself, as it can easily raise in stature by quantity, under certain circumstances. However, as rude and petty as Mike’s jabs towards Walky may have been, there was never any indication that Mike entered bullying [in the behavioral sense] territory. And, without trying to excuse bullying or minimize its effects on people, quantity on bullying still likely only raises it a stature tier.
So even with high frequency, it’d still likely equate to Danny’s present behavior. If Mike was devaluing Walky’s life on the reg, then clearly that’d be worse, as that’d be the same behavior as Danny but more frequent. And of course, if we’re talking the common conception of bullying, with someone actively demeaning or physically harming another, then that’d be a clearly worse situation.
Basically, this is all inconsequential as far as abusive behaviors go but, at the same time, neither one is behaving well according to societal propriety, and Danny is leading in severity (whereas Mike is leading in quantity). You could argue which is worse (ie, quantity or quality), but my focus these past two days has primarily been on evaluating Danny’s comment on its own circumstances, and how it relates to any single behavior of Mike’s.
In short, I’m not excusing Mike from being an asshole, I’m just noting that Danny’s behavior is rather notable in its severity (within the framework of actions that are inappropriate but not outright abusive).
One could even argue for it being worse than Mary’s verbal attacks, since Danny is directing it towards an unsuspecting, vulnerable friend and, well, not really sure Mary even has friends in any meaningful sense. Then again, Mary’d probably leap at the chance to injure someone when they’re down, so let’s just go with the safe bet of Mary still being way worse.
But, as I keep noting, the issue here isn’t “Danny vs Mike” to begin with, either in terms of their relation to one another, or in terms of how their behaviors contrast to one another. It’s “Danny just sucker punched Ethan (and anyone else nearby that may have an investment to Mike) for no reason, and then decided his own self-satisfaction was more important than anyone else’s feelings, and doubled-down on demanding affirmation on his inappropriate behaviors”. That’s just.. absolutely trashy behavior.
You’re just an abuse apologist, that’s what’s this is about. 🙂
Telling Amber she’s going to become her father.
As part of he later says was a pattern of prodding her to become more violent and destructive. Over years since their childhood.
“part of what he later says”
Ohhh no, Danny, no… I really thought he was gonna backpedal hard after the last panel of the previous strip, where he seemed to realize immediately that he fucked up… but after the first panel here he seems to have no awareness of why that was a bad thing to say??? I’m pretty sure he’s destroyed any chance he might’ve had with Ethan, although I doubt Danny’s figured that out yet
That part about how “our feelings are actually real” is especially dickish, because seriously, what has Mike even done to Danny personally to hurt his feelings? Based on a quick look through the Danny+Mike tag, Mike broke the news to Danny (in a very Mike-ish way) about Dorothy hooking up with Walky shortly after dumping him, and… I think that’s it? I guess Danny’s point is that Mike has hurt Ethan’s feelings in the past, but Ethan has feelings in the present too! Just stop talking Danny please
You mean, besides this?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/percent/
Right after realizing they both had a thing for each other but hadn’t yet acted on it, he decided to seduce Ethan to make Danny jealous. Sure, he wound up also helping Ethan through his own insecurities, but no matter how you look at it that was a serious dick move. Pun intended.
I think he knows it was a bad thing to say, but SEPARATELY dislikes the idea that Mike’s One Heroic Sacrifice makes up for all the rest of his time Being Mike. If Ethan had just left on with “come on he’s in a coma on the other side of this door” then Danny would still be mortified and desperately backpeddling.
Reading this mini-arc, or interaction, really drives home for me why this is called “Dumbing of Age.” I basically empathize with Danny here – even yesterday. It reminded me of when someone I knew had their spouse pass away, who had been violent and toxic in a lot of ways, for years and years. I was relieved. I did not say that to her, but it was an odd thing to sit with.
Really though, my point is that I get where Danny is coming from and even respect him for expressing himself despite the uncomfortable situation. It reminds me as well of when I was friends with someone, and I had been having frustrations with her for a very long time. I tried to talk to her about it, but she didn’t really reciprocate that, and continued to focus on other drama in her life and not tend to our damaged friendship. Finally, I said that I needed to not be around her any more. Shortly after, it was discovered that she had cancer. I felt bad for not “being there for her”, but I also was literally on E in that friendship and had been for years. I could not give any more. The friendship had been driven into the ground from me supporting her for years through numerous breaks ups, etc.
Sometimes we need to express something and it is really bad timing, but timing might not ever be perfect. I waited for years for a “good time” to work things out with that friend. There never was. Eventually I *had* to do express what was in my heart at a “bad time” – or I chose to, because I was no longer willing to live with the frustrations and resentment that I carried in that friendship.
And I basically understand where Danny is coming from. I think he could have chosen better words to express it, a lot better words, but he doesn’t know that because he is 18. I didn’t know what I know now at 18 either. It takes experience to learn how to handle these types of situations with the nuance they deserve.
Not being extra judgy, I think the thing to note is that Danny is coming to a hospital room where a recent tragedy has happened. Ethan was kidnapped, possibly has PTSD, and his best friend is in a coma. Danny is here to make a love confession, irritated than Ethan is NOT in the mood, and then says that he shouldn’t worry about his friend because his friend is a dick.
That’s massively entitled, selfish, and kind of manipulative. If Ethan was a woman, I’d say it was actually misogynist but it’s just toxic in its relationship handling.
“I’m here to be romantic. This is not the time to be sad!”
Word.
There’s nothing wrong with sympathizing with the scenario as being familiar to oneself, but anyone doing so should really reconsider the level of attention they’re giving to the considerations of others. Because, as you said, it’s a rather immature (and problematic) mindset for someone to be working with.
*Also not intending to be “judgey”. Nor even saying it’s an abberational behavior. Just noting it’s an immature one, that eventually [decent] people should grow out of.
In light of that, it’s very excusable behavior for youth [fictional or otherwise] (and I think we’ve all gotten too into our heads or circumstances at some point to really pay proper attention to the situations around us), even if it’s not at all justifiable behavior.
As one gets older, however, egotism and entitlement and other immature behaviors just.. start looking all the worse, and emphasizing that “maybe this person just isn’t capable of growing up, or lacks the empathy or comprehension skills necessary to do such”.
Yeah, I don’t think Danny’s a bad person for this overall. To me, there’s never a good time to express a sentiment like that, but there are particularly bad ones and ‘talking to his grieving best friend’ is a particularly bad time and it’s a jerky thing to do. It’ll be a part of him learning how and when to express stuff like that but it’s a real feeling that exists.
-sigh- Just… god damn.
I was hoping these two would get together, honestly. They were basically the only major recurring options for that that weren’t Mike.
Ain’t nothing gonna make it a thing now.
Mike’s a manipulative asshole, I personally don’t care what happens to him, but seriously god damn, fake some empathy even if you don’t care Danny. You don’t have to like him to realize that maybe you shouldn’t say that when you’re outside his hospital room where his parents can likely hear you.
Though, honestly I don’t think it matters that he’s saying it to Ethan, especially when Ethan is minimizing Mike’s shittiness by waving it off as being an asshole sometimes. He knows what Mike is like, and even told Mike not to mess with Danny, so frankly, he’s just using Mike doing one good not-assholish thing to excuse his previous behavior, likely as a coping mechanism in case he never wakes up.
“where his parents can likely hear you”
And even if we use some sort of philosophical wrangling to justify Mike deserving that, from what we’ve seen his parents certainly wouldn’t..
Not that Ethan deserves it, either. Hell, not sure Mike deserves Danny going all the way to visit his coma bed just to say shit to him.
As goki notes below, it’s not like Mike ever did anything terrible to Danny, deserving of the “visit the hospital bed just to say shit to the coma patient” treatment. And that’s assuming we’re legitimizing that for anyone other than a killer, corrupt cop/businessmen, etc.
Far as I know, Mike has limited himself to mild physical violence and verbal abuse which, frankly, he’s only beating out the average human by quantity, there, not by scope.
I’m not talking about anyone deserving anything. I’m sure Danny didn’t come here just to say shit to a comatose Mike. The entire purpose of my comment was to put focus on the people who are actually in the throws of grief and not Ethan.
Danny’s under no obligation to feel empathy for someone who’s shown himself to be a manipulative asshole for the entire length of time he’s known him, no matter what circumstances the guy is in. Say what you will about timing, there would never be a time where Ethan would accept the conversation.
And considering Mike first slept with Ethan because Ethan said he couldn’t screw with Danny, add in emotional manipulation. It doesn’t matter if he caught feelings.
There’s plenty of opportunities to bring the matter up elsewhere, or with bettr timing [better doesn’t HAVE to mean ‘perfect’, it just has to mean ‘less inappropriate’]. Going to the hospital to do it either puts you on the same level as the individual in question [and that before any collateral damage like Mike’s parents], or means you’ve got amazingly bad impulse control.
We’d go with the latter for Danny but the fact that Danny is continuing with this, up to this point, and with complete dismissal not only of Ethan’s current mental/emotional state but also of any other invested parties nearby, puts it so that we’re having to ascribe both aspects to Danny.
Also, referring to your first post:
“Though, honestly I don’t think it matters that he’s saying it to Ethan, especially when Ethan is minimizing Mike’s shittiness by waving it off as being an asshole sometimes.”
If it doesn’t matter in that sense, then Danny wouldn’t have any investment in Ethan’s feelings to begin with, meaning the best course would simply be to break off with Ethan. Even if we’re ignoring the “let’s not care about Ethan’s feelings” bit, the best idea is to either let it go entirely (accepting it as a flaw of Ethan), or to discuss it reasonably. There’s just no reasonable excuse for this approach or timing.
“He knows what Mike is like, and even told Mike not to mess with Danny, so frankly, he’s just using Mike doing one good not-assholish thing to excuse his previous behavior, likely as a coping mechanism in case he never wakes up.”
Wow, okay. And now you’re turning this on Ethan, even though he’s the one having to react to someone else’s random shittiness, ala classic victim blaming. I could break that down to several additional flaws [such as the fact that Ethan has been friends with Mike well up to this point, without Mike having to have done any good deeds to maintain the friendship, or the fact that Ethan’s current response seems to be more focused on his own emotional state than on excusing Mike’s character wholesale] but, frankly, this is pushing territory that just isn’t worth my time anymore.
Though I’m really not sure how we got to that from your original post’s sentiment, which I was agreeing with, so do please correct me if there was a miscommunication in there somewhere.
The miscommunication came in with talking about what Mike and Ethan deserve in this case. The focus of the first half of my comment was on the face that hospital doors don’t do much to muffle sound and the Warners are in the room, and I broke the second half, more directly about the conversation in the strip, into a second reply for clarity.
As for saying I’m victim blaming, Ethan’s minimizing someone’s abusive traits and justifying it with “But he saved someone.” It’s him immediately following up Danny’s apology with “He got into this situation trying to save Amber.” that makes me uncharitable here. It’s just piling on extra detail to make someone else feel more guilty for intrusive thoughts coming out.
I feel like Ethan is saying that more as a “This really isn’t the right time to get on Mike, since he’s in this coma you want him to stay in because he chose to do something decent, which kind of invalidates your ‘he’s just wicked and deserves to be in a coma’ sentiment as being any kind of absolute”. In short, Ethan is emphasizing that the timing for it is extremely inappropriate, which is something I’ve been asserting myself from the start. 😛 Really don’t think Ethan is trying to excuse Mike overall, just trying to point out the timing, approach, and hyperbole that Danny is spewing is just utter dickish nonsense.
The sad part is. Mike went easy on Danny (compared to other people)
Because Ethan told him not to screw with Danny, for the most part, considering Mike was planning to sleep with one of them to make the other jealous. And frankly that doesn’t change that Mike was a manipulative asshole to observably everyone.
OMG I DID NOT EXPECT HIM TO DOUBLE-DOWN. Wait, no he TRIPLED DOWN. Goddamnit Danny.
Also, I’m kind of amazed that Ethan’s initial reaction to Dan’s comment was so mild to begin with!
Vent OUTWARDS, Danny, vent OUTWARDS.
One hundred times this.
Yes! Ring theory!
Very much yes!
WHAT THE F***, DAN?!?
It feels like the self-sabotage is partially intentional, he was overthinking on the way up, now his jealousy is making him cruel.
I’mma gonna swim against the current here, but it looks to me like Danny just triggered Ethan into a realization. Not gonna lie, it’s an a**holery tactic, regardless of the motivation. Just the wrong thing to say. … but last panel — might — be Ethan realizing something. Porbly wrong, but that’s my fault.
As someone who suffered harm from bullies at school and wished terrible things on them at the worst times, I can empathise with Danny. However, yes, it is easy to go over the line and let your feelings become disproportionate. For all his manifold negative attitudes, in the end, Mike chose what he knew to be the right path. Unless he recovers and tells us, we’ll never know what made him such a cynical and manipulative person. Nonetheless, I feel that it says something critical about him that he volunteered to protect naive Joyce from Joe’s stumbling seductions and chose to fight to the death to protect Amber.
Was it Ethan walking away from him that taught him the error of his ways? Was experiencing for himself the pain of cruel cynicism that made him want to change? Or, was it that he had never changed at all but, rather, had simply chosen to shed his facade of edgelordship to show who he really was when he wasn’t trying ot pretend to be emotionally detached from everyone else?
Mike didn’t volunteer. Joyce asked Ruth and then him, and he did it because she gave him carte blanche to punch anyone who acts inappropriately in the face.
Whatever backstory made him a manipulative person wouldn’t excuse it. He’s still a manipulative person and Ethan knows that.
This might be the first time I actually activly dislike Danny. Up until now he just irritated or mildly annoyed me from time to time I never really got why people disliked him so much. I do now.
I mean, this is easily the worst he’s ever been. I’m still not sure why people disliked him so much before this.
You are right of curse, it is the worst he has been by far. Still dont hate him tho, but I can not reacal ever really hating anyone so thats not saying much.
On a slight tangent it kind of unsetteles me how freely some people you such a strog word as “hate”. Maybe they don’t really mean it, I don’t know.
I am not sure but maybe people disliked Danny so much because up until now his way of screwing up was in a really comman teenage way so it was easy for people to see either their younger selfs or people they knew in him?
Sorry this comment is somewhat muddled
You can’t rely on fictitious morality in one breath and reject it in the next! Either you commit to the Darth Vader Ian redemption narrative of reject it entirely, you butt.
Okay, ya done it, you fictitious dorks and all you anal-retentive dorks that bongo about said fictitious dorks, I’ve been motivated to give you a lesson in actual ethics:
“[Do not speak] of what men deserve. For we each of us deserve everything, every luxury that was ever piled in the tombs of the dead kings, and we each of us deserve nothing, not a mouthful of bread in hunger. Have we not eaten while another starved? Will you punish us for that? Will you reward us for the virtue of starving while others ate? No man earns punishment, no man earns reward. Free your mind of the idea of deserving, the idea of earning, and you will begin to be able to think.”
Shh. I’m trying to decide if we deserved that.
“Use each man according to his desserts, and who should ‘scape whipping?”
“‘Deserve’ has got nothing to do with it.”
Actually, it’s not really considered a story of redemption by most.
By most analyses, Anakin was basically a force addict and, as with most addicts, he engaged in ever more destructive habits (and, as with many severe addicts, had a pusher who kept encouraging and escalating his habits).
And an addict or abuser having a moment of lucidity and remorse and conviction towards being good isn’t really redemption. It does indicate he still had some measure of good in him, but there was no guarantee he’d not fall back into bad habits later on.
More than that, it’s not redemption even in a classical sense, given that even mass murderers, totalitarian dictators, and so forth can show favoritism towards their children [or engage in similar exceptions of selectively decent behavior]. Redemption in a classical sense would be Vader becoming lucid, and single-handedly leading a reformation in an attempt to make up for his past.
Basically, Anakin’s entire life was portrayed as a self-destructive tragedy, where he had good premises- his love of his mother (which drove him to vindictiveness, destructiveness, and brutality), his desire to mean something within the Jedi council (which led to his feelings of entitlement, insubordination, betrayal, etc), his passion towards Padme (which drove him to jealousy, posessiveness, paranoia, and more), his aims towards his children- to have a legacy, to have a connection, just as he had wanted with his mother and padme (which drove him to ever-escalating derilictions of duty and finally betrayal.. wait, those are good things now, though :P).
Basically, it’s about an addict/abuser/etc who always had good.. well, not intentions, but certainly desires, and just never approached things well. It’s a rather elaborate and grounded character piece [well, once you’re able to accept the premise of how insane and petty and petulant Anakin is as an individual, especially early on], rather than being some sort of dramatic redemption arc.
IN SUMMARY, if we’re connecting Anakin-Vader to Mike, the proper counter-argument would be “He handles his life poorly, yes, but he’s not an intentionally wicked individual, and he has some moments where he’s reliable and good (to those he cares for).”
Not “and then one day he’ll magically be a puppy-loving perfect human who was redeemed from his past mistakes”.
And once we look at it through that lens, the Anakin-Vader comparison actually seems pretty fitting for Mike. Er, once you skip over that whole mass murderer bit, at least. 😛
Honestly this hurts, I actually really like Danny, I know he’s the punching bag of the community and to Willis apparently. But I see him as I see myself several years ago, trying really hard but unable to see past the protagonist-glasses glued to his face, unable to see others experiences and truly get their feelings. I don’t know why I can do those things now and I couldn’t then, I don’t know what changed. But I don’t see a genuine malice in Danny, and I think he can change like I did, so I still root for him.
But dammit Danny! Come on!
I don’t think Danny is a bad person, overall. I think it’s exactly what you just said, and he’s got those protagonist glasses glued to his head. Only his feelings are valid and real. He doesn’t like Mike, therefore no one could possibly like Mike or have any positive attachment to him. He’s just “saying what needs to be said/telling his truth/not repressing himself”.
Ethan’s feelings aren’t factoring in for him, because he literally can’t wrap his head around the idea that Ethan has his own experiences and history with Mike that allow him to see Mike in a different light. Danny thinks he’s doing the right thing here.
Unfortunately it is very much not, and it makes him sound like a self-centered jerk. And it’s painful to watch, because Danny isn’t really a bad person. He’s just a very dumb kid with no life experience yet.
Or Danny knows Mike’s been messing with Ethan so long he’s got an emotional hold on him, even though he’s toxic and abusive to him. Maybe Danny is thinking about Ethan.
Danny is thinking about Danny right now, and what he wants and feels.
Which means that Danny doesn’t respect Ethan enough to have his own opinions. Danny is a shitty boyfriend and Ethan should stay far the hell away.
Must respect the abusive relationship. You’re a bad person if you don’t.
Reading all these comments I’m starting to worry I might have this protagonist syndrome thing myself
If it makes you feel better, I think everyone does it. I mean, your head is the only one you live in, and your life is yours, so a lot of your rationale/decisions are going to be “you” based. That’s not really bad behavior. It’s just living.
It’s when people do this stuff here, like Danny is doing, where they treat other people like NPCs or side characters to their story, not people with their own histories and motivations, that a person is being a jerk.
It’s very common. Read up on “fundamental attribution bias”.
I think to some extent, shedding the protagonist glasses is part of growing up and really understanding people have different experiences than you.
Per Dave Barry, there are some social situations where the only appropriate response is to spontaneously burst into flames and die.
Also according to my social anxiety. Welp, that’s a corroborating second opinion, guess the matter’s settled.
*douses self in jet fuel*
Danny just keeps digging that hole. He’s gonna need a pretty big ladder to climb out of it soon.
How deep do you think he could go?
Dig faster, Danny, dig faster!
As someone who can’t remember everything that happens in the comic — beyond Mike being Mike, was there something specific Mike did to Danny that makes him hate him?
No, he didn’t. He even gave up on the plan of making Danny jealous (because of his own jealousy and feels for Ethan, though Danny became jealous anyway of his own accord).
He lied to him like, once, which Danny didn’t believe back when Dorothy had just started dating Walky, and annoyed him at the party before he got hurt, but he hasn’t specifically done anything to Danny, because Ethan specifically asked him not to do ‘Mike Things’ to Danny. It would be fair for Danny to still dislike/hate Mike just for the things he has done to Amber and Ethan and his general attitude but Mike did NOT in particular do anything to Danny himself.
You know, I was kinda on Danny’s side yesterday. I mean, it was still a bad thing to say *outloud*, but everyone has those bad thoughts that sometimes you gotta sit back and go “wtf” at *yourself*. Sometimes you brain/mouth filter malfunctions and you say them out loud. Still bad, but he could have recovered – and he almost *does* here.
BUT THEN after his apology he just sort of… doubles down, rendering the apology worthless and in the process doing more damage. And any sympathy I had for him is just *poof* gone.
Dan wants to fuck. Ethan wants to fuck. Dan wants a boyfriend. Ethan wants to fuck. Hmm… I see the problem.
Mike might die soon. Ethan doesn’t want to think or feel… Ethan and Dan are going to fuck!
Either that or they’re going to tuck it up.
You know, that looked different when I typed it.
I don’t think that Ethan is in the “I don’t want to think about this, let’s fuck” stage right now. I think Danny has pretty thoroughly removed himself from that category. That and the line “yeah. They are.” about his feelings? I think Ethan might be realizing he loves Mike.
Doesn’t even need to be about love realization, it can just be “Mike is my friend and you’re not even remotely considering my feelings when deciding to take this stand at this moment.” I mean, as I noted yesterday, that would be the natural response to the original comment Danny made, nevermind his bewilderingly dickish follow-ups.
He could also be remembering when Mike *did* consider his feelings: when he told Mike to back off of Danny. And Mike confirmed to Ethan at the party that he did just that. And now here’s Danny *not* doing that.
While he could be remembering that, we know better.
That he proceeded with seducing Ethan to screw with Danny.
“That he proceeded with seducing Ethan to screw with Danny.”
Pfft. That phrasing.
Danny what are you doing
Digging harder.
UP, Danny. Dig UP
Boy’s got a diamond pickaxe, and he’s about to noclip through bedrock.
Mikeria… You fear to go into those feels. Danny delved too greedily and too deep. You know what he awoke in the darkness of Ethan-dun…
Incidently, Danny is being a bigger asshole than Mike ever was.
I mean Mike was at least funny. Danny is just… egotistical.
Ironic.
Absolute tosh.
Just complete, absolute tosh.
Danny, take off your hat and stuff it in your mouth. You’ll be causing lot less damage this way.
God fucking damn it, Danny.
I was on the fence about if I shipped Ethan/Danny or Ethan/Mike, and I am now firmly planted on Mike’s side. He better wake his ass up.
I ship Mike and everyone. As well as Mike and everyones’ mothers.
My campaign pledge for 2020 is “Mike for All”!
Definitely better than that guy promoting “Let’s promote hate, totalitarianism, corruption, and the dismantling of civil liberties”, wouldn’t you say?
Clearly the dapper hat is not enough anymore. Time to grow a full beard and a manbun, Danny. Maybe then you will be likable. Better odds on that than personal growth.
On the one hand, valid argument. On the other hand, not the time for it. I’ll allow Dan that he clearly hadn’t been intending to have it now.
Pretty much this. We only know better about Mike because we can see into his inner thoughts and his past. For everybody else who meets him, Mike is that incorrigible a-hole who insults and belittles everybody he meets, presumably so they can feel better about themselves. For all the times we’ve been discriminated against, yelled at, degraded or even physically assaulted, there might have been “a good reason” for why the person acted out (they have a mental disorder, a physical addiction, a traumatic childhood, an abusive relationship, a really REALLY bad day), but as Danny says, it doesn’t make the hurt and damage they caused go away.
So yeah, this was NOT the time or place to have this discussion, Danny, but nor do I fault you for feeling this way.
sometimes you need to learn to let things go…or when to pick a fight…you are a moron Dan
Danny is a character I’m re-evaluating as every relationship he’s in, he’s selfish and surprisingly manipulative. In fact, I’d go so far as to say he’s a Nice GuyTM and asshole on par with Mike. Danny came to prey on Ethan during a time of emotional vulnerability and outright says he doesn’t give a crap about a fellow human being in a coma. Which if you don’t, DONT COME TO THEIR HOSPITAL ROOM.
In TV tropes terms, this is his Moral Event Horizon for me.
Or you know, you could read his actual thoughts and past words.
“I almost lost him forever. So I should tell him exactly how I feel about him.” isn’t exactly “prey on Ethan during a time of emotional vulnerability”.
Again, that’s how Danny sees it. How Danny sees it is not taking how Ethan feels.
Yeah, this. Danny is has (once again) framed a situation that isn’t really about him into him having the starring role.
They are pretty self-centred, aren’t they? Ethan appears as the object of Danny’s feelings, with no thought given to Ethan’s experiences, feelings, or current situation.
It’s still not focused on exploiting his vulnerability. There’s no indication that’s even crossed Danny’s mind.
True. It was all “I almost lost me big chance”, not “Blaine softened Ethan up for me”.
Yeah he’s certainly not going out of his way to prey on Ethan at a vulnerable time. For all the interpretations of these last two strips I think that one is a misreading.
I do think Danny is very much a Nice Guy (the bad kind), but like many Nice Guys, genuinely thinks he is an actually nice guy and doesn’t have the social awareness to grasp what he is doing wrong.
So I don’t read him as manipulative here…I think he genuinely thinks he’s telling Ethan a Hard Truth as a Good Friend and is oblivious to the fact that he’s actually just being an asshole.
This may be the hardest Danny’s ever Danny’d up a situation.
Dammit Danny.
I agree that “Isn’t comparable ” But sometimes ??? That was Mike’s fulltime job! And Ethan is totally in love with Mike. So better for Danny to go away.
I agree with you Ethan, but devaluing the amount that Mike is such a shit human doesn’t change the fact that he’s a shit human. Even when he did his sacrificial action he being a shit about it.
Darn it Danny, he actually made it worse.
*sigh* I guess Ethdan is on the back burner for a while.
oh hey i havent commented in a while but man
i feel for danny here. he has only ever seen the worst parts of mike, only sees what mike wants him to see, which is just a grade-a a-hole who makes inappropriate jokes. ethan, meanwhile, has seen a lot of humanizing moments of mike. he knows that the a-hole thing is (at least partially) a facade.
and NEITHER of them have mike’s full story, because no one can, and mike has made sure no one can.
but for danny, he sees what he thinks is an absolute, unapologetic asshole using ethan. he doesn’t see the years of friendship the two have had. of course saying all of this is out of line in the current situation, but if he was comparing mike to darth vader before this whole fiasco happened? it wouldn’t be that weird, would it?
it’s in poor taste now, and with what we as an audience know about mike and with how ethan knows mike, but to danny this all is like, slightly-out-of-line-but-not-wrong territory.
also, danny, please PLEASE take it from me.
no one wants to be given any new information, even if it’s good news, if they have a loved one who might not make it. wait until things fall one way or the other. too much is going on and there’s too much to process at the moment. and i wasn’t even dealing with having just been kidnapped on top of that.
nooooooooooooooooo what the heck danny don’t just pile more on … the hole you’re digging…
Okay, I’ve completely confused my metaphors. Anyway, you apologized but then you stopped backpedaling and now you’re just making things worse?? What is wrong with you!?
How many times has Danny even interacted with Mike? Like all I remember is him pretending to have slept with Dorothy. Maybe Joe told him about the punching and Ethan described some pointed dick moves from high school but how low is his “you should die horribly and young” bar? Is it just bc Mike slept with Ethan after both Danny and Ethan agreed to not pursue each other?
Real “nice”
Amazi-girl stalked and harrassed Sal but Sal still saved her life.
Mike was an errant jerk and Danny’s openly rooting for his coma directly to Ethan’s face and in earshot of his family.
He actually doubled down, huh.
Y’know what, I’m actually glad this is coming up. Danny is incredibly immature and slightly out of touch with reality. Maybe this will be a wake up call for him.
Wow this couldn’t have gone more poorly.
I think it’s interesting because this conversation between the two of them is legimitately worth having, but it’s also totally the wrong approach.
Is it okay for Mike to behave like an asshole and do things to actively torment people, the majority of whom he doesn’t care about, even if he did occasional selfless and helpful things too? Not really.
Is it okay for Danny to question Mike’s motives and behavior? Absolutely.
It is the right time for Danny to be offering a critique? And does him not liking Mike (for understandable reasons) mean he should be jumping right to “maybe he should just stay dead”?
Absolutely fucking not.
Is it weird that it’s kinda nostalgic seeing everyone get mad at Danny?
Oh hey, my comment went through.
I guess I want to start by apologizing for how much of an asshole I was last time I commented which resulted in my (absolutely deserved) ban.
Holy shit, hi Spencer! How are you <3
I’m doing okay. I don’t want to get too personal but life hasn’t been the greatest but I’m dealing with it a bit better and trying to formulate a plan to get everything in shape once the world stops being on fire. I started reading this series again a while back and, well, I missed talking about it I suppose. I’m grateful I’ve got that chance again.
I missed having you around. Welcome back! I hope things get better once everything stops being poopy.
That’s kind of you to say. Thank you.
I totally forgot he had this side to him and at first I was like “woahhh wtf, why would he say that??” but then I remembered his breakup with Dorothy, and yeah, this is how he rolls when he feels rejected/neglected.
I think the core issue is the battle between whether Danny has a point about Mike or whether this being fueled by his jealousy invalidates it (let alone saying it in the hospital outside Mike’s room).
I’m kinda hoping this blows up because I want to write a big defense for Danny for the next strip.
DANNY.
How did “I need to tell Ethan how i feel about him“ turn into “I’m gonna tell Ethan how badly i think of his friend”…..JUST NO.
Anyway, I think this is a situation where everyone is right at least partly.
Danny’s emotionally into Ethan (Danny doesn’t do just physical attraction after all), and he genuinely means to point out Mike’s history of abuse particularly with Ethan and Amber.
However, it’s also completely plausible that what spurred this in the first place was Danny’s jealousy over Mike and Ethan’s attraction towards him. Danny means well but he can still be a selfish person when it comes to romance and that’s something he never really got the chance to address.
So which is more important? Even beyond the bad timing of “Mike is in a coma right now” should Danny say anything at all if he’s coming at this from the perspective of considering his own feelings? Or does the truth of Mike’s abuse matter more than that?
To be honest, this is the side of Danny I despise which made me hate Danny very early on and makes me hate him right now too.
This is something I have seen with some generally passive people with low self-esteem before where like Danny, they have many good egg moments and people wouldn’t describe them as angry people. Most of their annoyance and anger in general goes unexpressed or builds up inside towards specific people as their internal lists of grievances grow though (because they don’t actually let things go, things just go unsaid for the time being).
But they are extremely vindictive ‘burn the world down’ people when they choose to release anger and if someone they dislike is framed positively or someone they like is framed negatively, they must correct the narrative. They must point out who the true villains of this narrative are and how bad these people are at any cost. *Even if it loses them the respect of everyone around them for when, how or who they do it to.*
And it never involves self-reflection when they do this. It never involves a ‘I shouldn’t have let things slide/I could have spoken up/I could have done something or said something’. It is just about being self-righteous and angry. It is about correcting the framing to match their own and anything they say, no matter how putrid, is justified in their minds by the fact they feel anger at all because to them feeling anger or hatred = lines must have been crossed as they don’t feel it over small things = they can say whatever they want, the feelings of others be damned.
There is no gain to be had from doing this either except self-satisfaction from ‘winning the argument’ because honestly, doing this is how you lose friends. People can form their own opinions without help believe it or not and don’t have to agree with you.
This is not a healthy release of emotion or expressing valid concerns either, it’s just a horrific thing to say and an outrageously cruel comparison to make.
And quite honestly, in Ethan’s position, this would make me lose all respect for Danny instantly and I wouldn’t even be arguing with him, I would be telling him to get out of my sight, because I’ve seen someone do something akin to this behaviour before, to one of my friends, and it made me lose all respect for them immediately and I never talked to them again for it.
Which doesn’t mean Danny isn’t still *mostly* a fundamentally good person in his general behaviour, but, his flaws that initially look superficial run very deep like this, and they have the potential to annihilate friendships and for me, this would be the friendship annihilated.
Wow, that is a pretty damn accurate summation of all my own problems with this behavior. I couldn’t really work out just what Danny thinks he’s accomplishing here, because there’s being self-centered and there’s being just plain destructive, and somehow Danny is nailing both targets, bullseye. This is it though. It’s all his grievances and pettiness unleashed at the worst possible moment because, well, this.
I just hate this kind of behavior so much, and you summed up every reason why. It’s so shallow and short-sighted and selfish, that it defies logic.
Strictly speaking Darth had no part in blowing up Alderaan. Tarkin gave the order after all.
Christ, and I though he Danny’d it up yesterday. Just goes to show you that there’s always another level of Danny you can take a situation to.
I’m not going to get mad at Danny. ( even if this is suddenly “in character” )
Heres’s why: After 20 ( 30?) years of existence Danny didnt chose to be bisexual ( to make him audience interesting/ audience emotionally invested ) .
Danny isnt the One that kept his image splashed above the comic for 5+ years , from the ONE scene hes flushed from an erection, with Ethan on top of him.
It isnt Danny, currently leaning into “Bury Your gays” and “queerbailting” with the only 2 m/m main character ships in the whole comic, at the SAME TIME.
There is “damn you Willis”
and there is
“Do you really want to be Next to JK Rowling in Tvtropes ” ….think about it ?
Dude.
You know Rowling is like, an active TERF right? Using her massive amount of wealth, power and influence for the deliberate sake of worsening the lives of men, women and children. That’s a lot different than “a thing I don’t like is happening to a queer character.”
I also deeply resent the idea that Danny was only written as bisexual in order to make him more interesting. I can confirm that I am an extremely boring bisexual.
+1 (well like, +50) on the JKR stuff you said, but also, Danny being bisexual felt completely natural to me, and also it hasn’t made him any more interesting,
Seriously, Danny being bi was handled in a remarkably chill manner. He was a little distressed, but then he was like “Huh I guess I am bi,” and it wasn’t a big dramatic thing or a “I’m hinting that he’s bi but never gonna confirm it” thin g, and I appreciated that, as a bi person who also had a late realization about it in a very anti-climactic way. His story felt the OPPOSITE of “trying to make him more interesting.” It felt very human and very validating, and the implication that Danny suddenly becoming bi after 20-30 years must only be a readership/attention ploy feels like a gross way to imply people who realize they’re bi late in life aren’t actually bi and are just doing it for attention.
If that’s not what you meant then I apologize but…it is a thing some people believe and its exhausting to constantly hear this take any time I see a bi revelation experience that more accurately matches my own.
And srsly comparing Willis, who clearly appears to be doing his best to learn about experiences outside his own and write inclusive stories about a wide variety of people in a non-patronizing way, to JKR who is actively invalidating trans people and refusing to listen to trans people’s experiences at all, is pretty absurd.
P.S. Axel and Spencer, sorry that reply started out as me agreeing with you both but the last part was directed at the earlier commenter, not you, if that wasn’t clear.
Hi be coherent pleese
1. “Made Danny bi to make him interesting” is a ridiculous assertion given that at least 11 of the 21 characters on the cast page are LGBTQ.
2. Mike isn’t dead. We don’t even know if he’s going to stay in the coma, much less die.
3. All three of the male characters you’re referring to are out about their sexualities. A “will they/won’t they” situation between characters who are clearly established to be gay is not the same thing as having two characters who are established as straight ping ponging between moments that imply romantic interest in each other and moments of clear interest in a different gender (usually while the creator(s)/writer(s) insist the implied interest moments don’t exist).
Ethan and Mike have had sex with other men and each other. There’s a whole separate porn comic about it. We know Danny is interested in Ethan. You are not being “baited” into thinking that maybe these characters will turn out to be gay.
Mike has hurt people. He’s annoying. But he’s much more down in the hated list than Ryan, Blaine, Toedad, Carol, Linda, Naomi, Raidah, Ruth’s grandpa,etc.. Danny essentially said that it wouldn’t be so bad if Mike didn’t wake up. Those are really mean feelings to have.. Dan should have been surprised it even occured to him. Now, he’s going further to compare this to Star Wars? He should at least recognize that Mike is Ethan and Amber’s friend. He is also someone’s son, his parents are distraught.
Psst… Danny, you are also fictional.
oof, this dialogue! well done!