Joyce’s abiloty to accept reality has always been in doubt. A good question is, are there any good examples of her handling reality like a normal person?
Are there any examples of everyone in this series accepting reality? Sal and Sarah’s cynism, Dorothy’s rationalizations, Amber’s comic book worldview, Walky’s immaturity, Joe’s distancing from others, Danny’s obsession with relationships, Ethan using toys to not focus on reality, the DeSanto’s over the top political obsessions, Becky’s black humor, Leslie crushing desperately on Robin, etc.
She is DIVORCED from reality. She lived in a lotus eating machine of creationsim, bigotry and puritanism. She is the perfect test subject for the extra villain of Persona 5 Royal.
Or doesn’t want to break them up over her, as it will not only undue or mend everything, it will only make it worse.
Throwing the last few years of his life with a woman whom he never had a problem staying with and raising all four of the kids he had with her “the right way” ,until the 1st Act of Ross’s bullshit led to him seeing the ‘fair weather friend’ side of his church community and his loving wife joining in with them, won’t change how low Ross sank or how much her whole world before college let her down. It definitely won’t make her feel like any less of a fool for believing in it all before now.
I think she just doesn’t want to see anymore of the ‘goodness’ she associated with her roots and the values she was raised on exposed as cruel illusions…
Or Joyce doesn’t want to break Hank and Carol up over her, as it will not only undue or mend everything, it will only make it worse.
Throwing the last few years of Hank’s life with a woman whom he never had a problem staying with and raising all four of the kids he had with Carol “the right way” ,until the 1st Act of Ross’s bullshit led to Hank seeing the ‘fair weather friend’ side of his church community and his loving wife joining in with them, won’t change how low Ross sank or how much Joyce’s whole world before college let her down. It definitely won’t make Joyce feel like any less of a fool for believing in it all before now.
I think Joyce just doesn’t want to see anymore of the ‘goodness’ she associated with her roots and the values she was raised on exposed as cruel illusions…
Honestly, I read that more as a small remark made in a jokey way like “hah here’s an opportunity let’s joke about joe” to lessen the pressure of the subject, might be in poor taste (kinda is? can’t quite judge that tbh) but i don’t think it was inteded as a potshot at him.
That said, Sarah is quite mean spirited in general(or maybe rude is a better word?). I think we’re having some rose-coloured glasses going around cause she’s been trying to take care of Joyce in her own way.
I wouldn’t be shocked if Sarah has some unresolved Emotions about her parents’ divorce (it’s safe to say she never sought out on-campus support for the semester and a half of ostracision after a month or so of watching her roommate slide into deep depression and being out at very late and thus VERY CONCERNING GIVEN THE DEPRESSION hours, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she didn’t for that either,) but yeah. I think she’s primarily mean as a defense tool, but there is some genuine nastiness towards people she dislikes. (And she was the one who spearheaded the Jacob Breakup plan. I don’t typically hold that one against them all beyond ‘oh god you dumbass teenagers’ but yeah, REAL spiteful dick move.)
That, and Joe identified what she was doing by pointing Joyce at Jacob, voiced his disapproval, and made her face what she was doing by telling her it was working. She already didn’t like Joe but that had to make it worse.
Having said that, I am quite certain that Richard doesn’t need Joe’s help in finding himself divorced.
I also tend to think most of the college cast are reasonably decent people by college standards. (Even antagonists like Rachel and Raidah tend to have at least one genuine good quality, though the bad ones can outweigh them.) Ryan and his cronies, no, Mary’s well past the point of reasonableness, Mike spent a lot of time actively stomping his better traits down, and a lot of the adults have passed the point where I think they’re likely to change, but most of the cast tend to do the right thing when the stakes are high. It’s the rest of the time that they can all be assholes. I still think Dina is, on the whole, one of the most Good characters with any screentime, and she volunteered to spy on Raidah and Jacob for revenge because Raidah’d been ableist towards her. Objectively asshole move! Danny enabled Joe’s creepy list. Dorothy didn’t manage to unambiguously dump Danny until move-in night, and she KNEW he was following her to IU. Joyce *gestures to the comic to this point.* And most of the cast have been at least vaguely patronizing in ableist ways towards Dina. But all of them do seem to be getting BETTER, and I feel that tends to be the case for the more jerkish characters as well the longer they show up. (Though sometimes that also includes an incredible spiral of self-destructive behavior HEY AMBG!)
Yes? It’s not like, definitive that a divorced middle aged man hitting on college students would also hit on college students if be were married but it does kinda unsubtly gesture in that direction.
If the sheer ‘OH GOD CREEP NO’ of his body language (towards his 18-year-old son’s peer AUGH!) doesn’t do it, that line sure as hell will. Given Joe’s line (‘I wish I could say he was only like this after the divorce’) I think Sarah has ample evidence to conclude that yes, he was a terrible husband.
To be fair he only did that after Carol pulled the Godwin’s law and if he is anything like his elder daughter then he might want to try to pick his battles, he seems like the conflict-adverse type to me, and his sticking out his neck to inform Joyce about what was going on with Toedad does make me think he might change for the better.
it would be shitty to say TO him, but sassy comments about someone when they’re not around, especially someone who has actively been a shithead in front of her multiple times, a day after (or the day of?) a traumatic event hardly seems worth the shock and disgust of this thread.
Yeah, I was reading it as “his” referring to Richard. I mean, he was far from a peach when Sarah met him, and Joe is pretty open about his dad being a jerkwad.
Given that (a) Sarah has met — and been hit upon by! — Joe’s dad (as noted), and (b) Sarah’s most recent interaction with Joe was Joe saying that Joyce hadn’t believed that Sarah had been manipulating her, and (c) the interaction before that was Joe being grumpy at her for manipulating Joyce (that is, Joe was grumpy on Joyce’s behalf). . .
I strongly suspect that Sarah’s remark, while being in-character mean, was also more than a little facetious and unserious.
At first reading the comic, I thought “his fault” meant Joe’s father.
If she is talking about Joe, I’d think she was being sarcastic, trying to tell Joyce, her parents’ divorce would be her fault either.
I doubt she was actually genuinely proposing it was really Joe’s fault. She doesn’t like him, but I think it was more just her being flippant than anything else.
Besides, she’s met Richard. That mystery kinda solves itself.
She did just get kidnapped like 24 hours(ish?) ago. I think being a little extra mean to someone not present is an understandable show of emotional stress, if not the healthiest.
Mine are both crazy in opposite directions and I can’t imagine them together, like mater and anti mater, but I always thought they’d have kept each other’s craziness in check when it came to parenting.
Literally as soon as I learned what divorce was as a little kid I started looking forward to the day my mom would do that, but it didn’t finally happen until I was eighteen which was long enough for him to wreck the ever loving hell out of her self-esteem.
Let’s see
-Going behind your significant other’s back
-Taking money from the mob
– Bailing out the guy you held your youngest daughter at gun point.
-Not showing a lick remorse afterwords.
Sarah that was mean, Joe may be an asshole but no kid should ever be blamed for their parents marriage failing. Also is this where we are going to learn that Hank and Carol are on their way to a divorce, but Joyce is going to refuse to accept it? She seems to have a hard enough time accepting that her parents don’t see eye-to-eye on everything and that they keep secrets from each other.
. . . Is there some big Anti-Divorce thing in the Fundi’ community I’ve never heard of? Like I know that us Catholics, or rather less so with us “Raised Catholics”, can be a bit a bit squeamish on the idea but it’s not some dirty word or horrible fate. Sometimes it just happens and people need to split apart so that they can be happy.
Depends on the denomination at least a bit, I suspect, but when you’re operating off the assumption womenfolk are their father or husband’s (or nearest male relative if the dad’s dead I guess) property rather than having agency of their own?
Then yes, that does tend to happen. Given Ross, I am not at all surprised.
Also I’m pretty sure Jesus has more to say on the topic of divorce and remarriage and how they’re both awful than he does on homosexuality? I seem to recall that being a thing I read once.
Well, I’m not deep into historical fact from 2000+ years ago.
But to me it reads like “ Hey guy, you cannot throw your wife out on the street just on a vim (darn, I am sure ‘on a vim’ has been idiomatic English at some time, but nowadays google just returns matches about the editor), only if she cheated on you first.”
Which might give women some protection here?
Its actually one of the things we can be pretty certain are actually historical, because a not insignificant number of the “letters to the x” have chunks that are about “okay so even so jesus said ‘no divorce whatsoever’ if it DOES happen here’s the right way to do it.” Principle of inconvenience basically, people don’t make things up that are inconvenient to them, and the stuff jesus said about divorce appears to have been inconvenient to the early Christians, so the early Christian’s probably didn’t make it up.”
Speaking as someone raised RC, divorce or separation is OK. It’s the remarriage afterwards that was the big no-no, because of the “what God has joined together let no man put asunder” thing.
Although that was back when I was still a good little blotter even younger than Joyce is here, and since I never did get married I don’t know what may have changed in the fifty years since then.
Wasn’t really all that keen on marriage in the first place, iirc.
A lot of the early church writings should be seen in an apocalyptic context though – no real point in marriage or divorce since God’s going to end the world and usher in His kingdom any day now.
Yeah, especially given early Christians had to redefine the term ‘Messiah’ to fit Jesus into it, the apocalyptic thought process was a lot clearer then and lost with the passage of time.
a lot of them basically believe that when THEY or anyone in their in group divorces it’s justified and god is cool with it, its just everyone outside their in group who’s living in sin.
Some Protestant churches actively vilify and shun those who’ve been divorced. The husband is blamed for not having been a good enough head of the family to keep the wife in line, and the wife is kinda just labelled an adulteress (or insert more awful naming I’d rather not type). Members and pastors of the church I joined to figure out if I believe in God 15 years ago said this explicitly…I am now firmly agnostic for this and several other reasons.
I suspect Carol’s awfulness has always been in the back of Hank’s mind, but recent events have punted it to the forefront. It’s not going to be an easy ride for him, either.
She’ll just DARVO and play herself up as the victim because she “OnLy wAnTs WhAT’s bEsT”.
I suspect they’ve basically been in sync until recently, even if Carol has been the one leaning towards more extreme positions. It’s only since Hank started learning from Joyce and Carol and Joyce have come into conflict that he’s seen the problem.
And there’s probably still some conflict avoidance that’ll delay the final resolution here.
Well, we’re speculating that it’s a divorce arc. There’s some strain in the marriage at the moment and Sarah is hinting at the possibility because Sarah’s doom and gloom. That’s about all that’s there in canon. I think it’s a very plausible direction for the story to go, but Willis hasn’t leaned into it all that much yet.
There’s clearly a lot of dramatic irony in play with Joyce so obviously, vocally uncomfortable with the subject, which is I think where a lot of people are taking the ‘okay, yep, this is happening’ from. (Certainly I am.)
Hank’s significantly conflict-averse, so I could see him NOT doing so if it were anything short of ‘you bailed out the dude who threatened our daughter at gunpoint to kidnap his daughter, her best friend, and he proceeded to immediately kidnap HER with the help of a mobster. Who then killed him, and kidnapped Joyce himself.’ Some of these events were probably not foreseeable (Blaine going to murder.) Some probably were if the congregation had done any research and looked this gift horse in its mouth (maybe not quite ‘Blaine’s a mobster,’ but certainly ‘he doesn’t appear to be all that involved in the church or following the case to this point, and this is a LOT of money for a complete stranger to offer for no apparent reason, something’s shady here.’) The key point was INCREDIBLY foreseeable. (Of COURSE Ross was going to threaten Becky again in a way that gets Joyce involved.) Given that, I think he’s going to be EXTREMELY pissed off.
Yup, definitely a likelihood. That said, it’s a marriage that has stood for over twenty years, they seem to get along well on the level of personal chemistry, and both have religious… not so much roadblocks as speedbumps when it comes to divorce. I think there’s a pretty good chance that Hank (who would almost have to be the initiator in this case) would try to work things out even given that Carol did a really bad thing and even given that he’s going to be extremely pissed off. Especially since Carol is prepared to play a half-dozen “we couldn’t have known” cards, which if far from entirely accurate would at least contain a kernel of truth in that Carol had no idea that it would play out like this. I think he’d put a lot of effort into trying to persuade or reform Carol or something rather than it leading to divorce any time soon enough for us to see it.
It’s a thing I’ve noticed with religious people who make a gradual shift on doctrinal grounds from the nastier, stringent side of their religion towards the more open and accepting side. They often extend that openness and acceptance towards the nasty people that used to be (and still are) their friends and family. The very shift that got them out of the worst parts of religion keeps them from condemning or judging those parts they got out of.
Would he have moral grounds to divorce her? I’d say yes. She did something very bad that threatened one of their children. But I don’t think he will unless she makes things worse. … which she quite likely will.
Oh yeah, it’s the dramatic irony (and the inevitability of Shit Escalating over the course of this storyline until Hank is forced to choose between Carol and at least one of his daughters) that have me convinced more than the situation itself. Like, I would not be at all shocked if he’s still in appeasement mode now, angry but trying to keep things together… but once Joyce enters that situation, she is going to have no patience for Carol’s bullshit, and she is REALLY good at expressing herself when she’s more angry than anxious, as those last scenes with Toedad showed.
Also narratively, someone’s gonna have to keep paying for Joyce’s tuition and I CANNOT imagine Carol isn’t going to try and play that card, and Hank’s basically the only option there so it’s gonna come down to a big fight there. (Unless Jordan turns out to have somehow become ridiculously wealthy since the estrangement and swoops in, Deus Ex Sibling. Maybe he’s an influencer. Or worse, a professional game streamer.)
It’s better to split up rather than to stay in a toxic relationship where both parties are becoming increasingly unhappy just because they think staying married is what they should do.
Agreed. I like both Joe and Sarah. Sarah does not like Joe, which is fair. She copped to being smart and mean when she got Ross’s car towed back before the first kidnapping arc, but saying a single deliberately rude, untrue thing about a person she dislikes, not to his face…well, that’s pretty mild as sins go
So, yeah. Now, to be clear, the divorce rates for Evangelicals/Fundamentalists* are not statistically different than any other group. So yes, to be clear, they’re super weird about it, but that doesn’t STOP them from doing it, because for them, their divorce was the “good divorce.” It’s the same for them and abortion.
*there’s a difference, SORT OF, and Joyce generally reads as more Evangelical to me, Fundie is more “wear nothing but ankle-length skirts, have an organist and sing traditional hymns in church,” but the lines are blurry and Willis himself seems to identify more with Fundie than Evangelical last I checked. Honestly, the differences are largely academic, and these aren’t names most of these groups would refer to THEMSELVES by.
Well if I had to guess I’d say first you wrote N instead of J, then you wrote I instead of O, after that of course you meant to write Y but hit the C button instead, then because you remembered E comes after C (which you had just written) in JOYCE you wrote E.
So, Sarah’s parents are divorced, and there was an earlier strip where she offhandedly mentions lying to her parents about loving them… Yeah, definitely starting to get a clearer picture of why Sarah was already pretty antisocial when she got to college.
She wasn’t as antisocial as she is now though, Raidah played a fun hand in gluing Sarah’s shell on tighter than ever; she was the one who said hi to Dana first and she did it with a smile too!
Sarah saying that it was Joe’s fault because Joyce is worried that her folks becoming “unmarried” will be her fault, so rather than letting that worry fester Sarah’s drawing it to the surface so it can be discussed.
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce. “No longer married” would be a better euphemism for “divorced”. “Not married” sounds like they never were, and instead had a kid out of wedlock, which I think in your world would be… worse?
It would be a etter euphemism, but one that still implies divorce is a possibility. Let us recall that Joyce’s immediate reaction on finding out that Joe’s parents were divorced was to want to plan a wacky sitcom plot to get them back together. “Not married” implies that they still might get (re)married.
The issue seems to be less about the sanctity of marriage, than about the horrifying thought that “Happily ever after” might not always be a thing and that once again romantic comedies have lied to her. The idea that people who get married might not be perfect for each other; even worse, the possibility that people might change, and stop being good for each other even if they used to be.
Joyce craves stability, which is constantly being kicked out from under her after a lifetime she believed was perfectly stable. Divorce is destabilizing. “Not married” is a state that denies the destabilizing fact of divorce, in the same way that we accept that tuna casserole does not have cream of mushroom soup in it.
Nail on the head with Joyce’s anxieties there. Remember, before the timeline treadmilled it so she’s probably too young now, she was a huge Twilight fan. Happily ever after stagnation and One True Love both.
“Not married” echoes the Catholic idea of annulment, where a marriage retroactively never was real, so you can get married to someone else, since you were never married at all.
I kinda find it charming that after everything that happened, she still has these little neuroses that are ingrained. I just laughed so hard at her not wanting to say the word “divorce.”
Neuroses are still a pathological problem. Maybe Joyce will finally be free when she stops trying to control things out of her control, beginning with how people make her food.
No, annulment can be done for reasons other than that. My mother with five children got one before she remarried. Its a process but it can be done in the current RC.
Annulment has legal meanings and church law meanings. In neither is consummation the only factor. Otherwise you could rape someone and make it a marriage. That would be very biblical but isn’t current law.
More like informed consent, since it more like a contract. This girls and even younger women can get marriages annulled in churches on account of immaturity. Or their partner wasn’t really committed to the marriage, which again makes it an invalid contract. Or lie to make the marriage happen. Again, no contract enforced then.
None of these affect legitimacy. Under current laws, you have to support your children. And none of them have a right to inherit if you don’t want them too. That isn’t affected by the validity of the marriage contract.
Hasn’t always been that way, even in my lifetime. But that’s the short version of both US law and Catholic teaching. I really hate when soaps (DOOL) have someone pull “in the eyes of the church” when all the characters are multiply married and divorced and every baby needs several DNA tests to identify their father and sometime their mother.
I think the idea stayed in my head because of Yentl giving Avigdor a letter To the rabbi about that so he could marry Haddass.
Which does make it Jewish law about 150 years ago.
As a child of un-marriage, I spent a lot of time thinking about what happened and how things got to that point.
It didn’t help that the “un” of it was….
Very unamicable.
Still, despite the everything, I agree with Sarah and Joe.
It would have been worse had they stayed together.
Joyce, divorces aren’t bad things. They can free some people from marriages that shouldn’t have ever happened. People don’t divorce because there’s no longer love, but because there was something wrong, something that made irronciliable differences. Rapist husbands, controlling wives, infidelities, physical abuse, gaslighting, verbal abuse, stealing money, etc. Better to be happy on your own than live misserable like the parents of Moral Orel who seem to only listen to The Mountain Goats in their heads.
Yep. This might as well be a big flaming beacon signalling Hank and Carol getting a divorce [Which, I mean, I’m kind of 110% on-board for, given their different interpretations and handlings of the situations related to Joyce, Becky, and Ross].
Still, there’s foreshadowing, and then there’s blatantly telling the audience exactly what a forthcoming plot point will be.
I’m kind of the opinion that our author has been foreshadowing this ever since the aftermath of Ross’s first attempt to “reclaim” Becky. Ever since then Hank has been on a redemptive arc, while Carol has been on a stubborn and rigid (to the point of doubling down) arc. Add to that the hints we’ve gotten of Joyce’s absent older brother (the literal “prodigal son” of the family) and the only thing that’s changed recently is the author has grown tired of being coy about it.
Also Joyce is somewhat of an Author avatar, and Hank & Carol are somewhat similar to the authors own (divorced) parents. This particular train has been coming down the tracks lights blazing, horn blaring for a long time now. It’s just gotten louder recently.
Fair point. He just seems to fit the parable (with Joyces a-hole missionary brother as the annoyed son). Maybe he’ll return post divorce (err-“not married”) to complete Hanks redemptive arc and highlight Carol as being beyond redemption.
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If you typically use an ad blocker but have this site whitelisted, the networks might not have a good read on your browsing habits and are just giving you random default ads.
Also, if the divorce bomb does go off, then between Ross’ death and Becky’s secured fall into sin completing the extinction of the MacIntyre family…her own daughter’s ‘fall from grace’…and the now likely destruction of her own marriage…
Everything Carol feared about sending their child to a secular college will have been totally vindicated, and not a month and a half after helping her daughter move in.
If there is a God, She is certainly trying very hard to tell somebody something and the dial is about to spring off the amplifier.
Between Joyce and Amber, they’ve probably experienced more trauma between them than the rest of the remaining extended cast of DOA (probably should throw Sal and Becky in that mix, too).
My parents split up when I was like 5 or 6, I had occasionally see my dad every now and then yet they would had me believe they were still a thing till my Mom finally admitted the truth when I was 14. Too bad by then I already assumed.
Many people in the porn industry are happily married. Look at Willis himself. He is an admitted internet porn lord and appears to be happily married and successfully raising two wonderful sons.
However, I do agree that marriage is the leading cause of becoming “not married”.
I think she’s afraid her parents are going to get divorced because her mother is evil and nearly got her killed, and her father might disapprove of that.
Although once she’s had a bit more time that might start to seem like more valid reasoning.
Wow Sarah whats a horrible thing to say about anyone when you discover their parents are divorced.
Also i hope Joyce parents divorce…her mother is horrible
I would give Joyce some advice that I’ve told and been told before. Divorce is not an evil thing. It’s the realization that two people aren’t right for each other. It is neither evil nor wrong and trying to force something to work that doesn’t is often how a bad relationship turns into domestic abuse, cheating, or worst of all… A successful marriage where the two people -hate- each other, and the children end up receiving it all.
Oh come now, that was beneath you, Sarah. 😛 There are a lot of kids from divorced families who DO grow up thinking that it’s all their fault (a fallacy sometimes encouraged by the parents themselves, seeking to use their kid as a weapon against the other). Divorces are often messy and complex, but it’s cruel to just point at the kid and lay all the blame on them. Even if it IS Joe. 😉
The problem with using “not married” is it could mean too many different things. It could mean divorced like Joyce is using it, or it could mean someone’s parents were never married.
That’s actually how it works in Catholicism if I remember right. Rather than divorcing the couple the Church just cancels their marriage as if it never happened.
A divorce and an annulment are two different things though. One is being married and no longer being so, which Catholics cannot do. The other is technically having never been married. Like filing the wrong spiritual paperwork.
The example I was given involved lying when saying your vows. If you were sincere at the time, you can’t annul. If one of you was lying through their teeth before god and everyone, then you’re not bound by it. Obviously this particular example would be hard to prove to anybody’s satisfaction.
Yeah though they can get a civil divorce (at least in my country) but if either of them will ever want to have a Church wedding again it will be impossible for them.
Non-consummation makes it much easier, and after enough time may be sufficient in itself, but it isn’t strictly necessary. For instance, if you find out that your spouse is also your half sibling, that’s grounds for an annulment.
I know that this is Joyce, but how indoctrinated do you have to be to think of “divorce” as something you can’t mention? Or is this the fear of her own parents breaking up?
I think mostly the latter.
Probably some of the former, but the idea up ends her worldview in more than one way. The obvious one pushed here with her parents not being the one unit she’s always thought of them as, but also her entire romcom/”true love” vision of romance.
Having your parents divorce can be dificult even when you think its a good thing. Some of my siblings took it well for some it was crushing.
Joyce is not really in denial, she is talking around it because she sees it is possible. She’s talking to someone who might be able to help her wrap her mind around it.
I Sarah just being cheeky, there? I guess she get a pass for being the kid of a divorced couple herself, but that’s simply not the kind of things you should say.
Being conditioned to believe certain things unbelievably leads to you believing certain things and religion tends to be opinionated about a lot of things so you get a lot of views and opinions to work through. Many of which exist independently of each other despite all existing within the bubble of ‘things you were taught which are flawed’.
She thinks Joe’s parents’ divorce could be his fault? Some insight right there in to how she was raised to think about families… and if her parents aren’t divorced after this arc, how they will respond to Jocelyn coming out.
I see a lot of people in the comments saying that Sarahs remark is ok since she didn’t say it to Joe directly. Thats a bit hypocritical.
If a shitty thing becomes acceptable if the offender doesn’t do it to the afflicted directly, then we cannot fault Joe for his list, since he was not the person who made it public.
I’m not saying this means Joe didn’t act like an asshole. I just think Sarah is ALSO acting like an asshole.
Both Characters are actually quite similar in their overall characterisation. They act like total assholes to strangers and people who try to get close to them.
Thats why they are both my favourite characters. They have the most potential to grow. Not that Joe has much competition in the male department since the rest are one-dimensional characters at best.
Yeah, Joe is a pervy womanizer and tabulator of a gross objectifying list, so there’s plenty to hate about him. But Sarah’s comment, yeesh, that’s uncalled for.
I grew up with two people that should have never met, let alone got married. All I really remember are profane screaming matches followed by periods of uneasy calm. People staying together because of their imaginary friend who lives in the sky {my opinion, YMMV} and throwing the dysfunction up the line while being miserable themselves defies logic, for me anyway.
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I get why, but I feel like Joyce is a bit “not married” from reality here
She’s not even living in sin with reality.
…I have no idea what that means, I just liked the sound of it.
On the banks of de Nile.
My sister is on her second divorce. So she’s like Elizabeth Taylor without the budget or the diamonds.
Foreshadowing before foreshattering.
My wife’s mother is on her fourth marriage, but it’s the same guy as the second marriage.
That’s another Elizabeth Taylor trick (for her it was five and six).
I think that’s like the time my now-spouse-but-then-SO had copious gay sex in while living in a Church Rectory…
Somehow the gravatar is really apropos with this comment
She’s not really married to the idea of her family unit splitting up.
Joyce’s abiloty to accept reality has always been in doubt. A good question is, are there any good examples of her handling reality like a normal person?
Are there any examples of everyone in this series accepting reality? Sal and Sarah’s cynism, Dorothy’s rationalizations, Amber’s comic book worldview, Walky’s immaturity, Joe’s distancing from others, Danny’s obsession with relationships, Ethan using toys to not focus on reality, the DeSanto’s over the top political obsessions, Becky’s black humor, Leslie crushing desperately on Robin, etc.
I see no mention of Dina. 🙂
Dina IS pretty grounded, although even SHE pretends to be a dinosaur sometimes.
We all need our escapism/fantasies
What d’ya mean pretend!?!
She doesn’t pretend to be a dinosaur. She is a dinosaur pretending to be a human.
Looks out the window at what passes for normal.
Nope, don’t like it.
Not one bit.
I’ll wait for an example of good instead.
Your word has no power here, Gandalf the Grey!
Ironically, by refusing to say it, and forbidding others to say it, you give the word power.
She is DIVORCED from reality. She lived in a lotus eating machine of creationsim, bigotry and puritanism. She is the perfect test subject for the extra villain of Persona 5 Royal.
Or doesn’t want to break them up over her, as it will not only undue or mend everything, it will only make it worse.
Throwing the last few years of his life with a woman whom he never had a problem staying with and raising all four of the kids he had with her “the right way” ,until the 1st Act of Ross’s bullshit led to him seeing the ‘fair weather friend’ side of his church community and his loving wife joining in with them, won’t change how low Ross sank or how much her whole world before college let her down. It definitely won’t make her feel like any less of a fool for believing in it all before now.
I think she just doesn’t want to see anymore of the ‘goodness’ she associated with her roots and the values she was raised on exposed as cruel illusions…
……..
Aww, Man. If only I could edit my posts after posting them.
Too many ‘he/she’ usages, not enough using their actual NAMES.
That’s what I get for posting these after midnight…..
Just checking: This is what you meant, right?
Yep.
How is one’s marriage to reality consummated?
The same way marriage is, it bends you over and…oh look a puppy!
Not to worry, you will get the answer in the end. ….. eventually … I meant eventually.
Dang that phrasing.
Hey look! I can finally comment! I’m not too late! Haha!
Ivorce?
Formerly married?
The Relationship Status formerly known as Married?
Wow, that’s kinda a super shitty thing to say about Joe, I mean Joe’s no peach but “Wow I bet it’s his fault” Is a garbage thing to say :I
Shockingly, Sarah is mean.
That’s a little meaner than Sarah norm.
Yeah, I’d call Sarah’s baseline level “blunt”. (Ironic given the whole situation with her last roommate…)
This feels like a step below that. Richard’s infidelity is a more likely catalyst than just about anything Joe could’ve done.
There’s mean and then “YOU’RE the reason your parents divorced” Which is just downright hateful.
Sarah’s unstable levels of morose.
Joe’s Johnny Bravo complex has a way of making women love hating him.
But in general, yeah, too far. Joe never did anything bad enough to her personally for her to think something that harsh about him…
Besides ranking her as a sexual object, probably
Like he did to the whole campus, you mean?
Wondering if Raidah was placed on that list, and what Joe said about her….
It would be, if she’d actually said it to him.
Honestly, I read that more as a small remark made in a jokey way like “hah here’s an opportunity let’s joke about joe” to lessen the pressure of the subject, might be in poor taste (kinda is? can’t quite judge that tbh) but i don’t think it was inteded as a potshot at him.
That said, Sarah is quite mean spirited in general(or maybe rude is a better word?). I think we’re having some rose-coloured glasses going around cause she’s been trying to take care of Joyce in her own way.
Literally 2 days ago, someone posted “I DON’T WANT PEOPLE EVER CALLING SARAH MEAN AGAIN!” and “Sarah is seldom mean”
Today we get “Oh wow, I bet it’s his fault his parents divorced”
Yeah she’s mean, she’s nasty, and while she has good and nice qualities, I don’t think she’s that great of a person.
I wouldn’t be shocked if Sarah has some unresolved Emotions about her parents’ divorce (it’s safe to say she never sought out on-campus support for the semester and a half of ostracision after a month or so of watching her roommate slide into deep depression and being out at very late and thus VERY CONCERNING GIVEN THE DEPRESSION hours, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she didn’t for that either,) but yeah. I think she’s primarily mean as a defense tool, but there is some genuine nastiness towards people she dislikes. (And she was the one who spearheaded the Jacob Breakup plan. I don’t typically hold that one against them all beyond ‘oh god you dumbass teenagers’ but yeah, REAL spiteful dick move.)
That, and Joe identified what she was doing by pointing Joyce at Jacob, voiced his disapproval, and made her face what she was doing by telling her it was working. She already didn’t like Joe but that had to make it worse.
Having said that, I am quite certain that Richard doesn’t need Joe’s help in finding himself divorced.
I also tend to think most of the college cast are reasonably decent people by college standards. (Even antagonists like Rachel and Raidah tend to have at least one genuine good quality, though the bad ones can outweigh them.) Ryan and his cronies, no, Mary’s well past the point of reasonableness, Mike spent a lot of time actively stomping his better traits down, and a lot of the adults have passed the point where I think they’re likely to change, but most of the cast tend to do the right thing when the stakes are high. It’s the rest of the time that they can all be assholes. I still think Dina is, on the whole, one of the most Good characters with any screentime, and she volunteered to spy on Raidah and Jacob for revenge because Raidah’d been ableist towards her. Objectively asshole move! Danny enabled Joe’s creepy list. Dorothy didn’t manage to unambiguously dump Danny until move-in night, and she KNEW he was following her to IU. Joyce *gestures to the comic to this point.* And most of the cast have been at least vaguely patronizing in ableist ways towards Dina. But all of them do seem to be getting BETTER, and I feel that tends to be the case for the more jerkish characters as well the longer they show up. (Though sometimes that also includes an incredible spiral of self-destructive behavior HEY AMBG!)
You’d think Sarah would be cynical enough to realize that there’s more people than just Joe who can screw up other peoples’ lives.
Lol “Screw” 😀
She’s studying law, isn’t that the entire point of the field?
Seriously Sarah what the hell.
I mean for one thing, you’ve MET Richard Rosenthal.
Yeah but did he do anything when she met him to indicate he is a bad spouse?
Yes? It’s not like, definitive that a divorced middle aged man hitting on college students would also hit on college students if be were married but it does kinda unsubtly gesture in that direction.
I could try to describe all the ‘oh yeah, DEFINITELY’ in that last panel, but frankly I think it’s best just to link it.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/persistent/
If the sheer ‘OH GOD CREEP NO’ of his body language (towards his 18-year-old son’s peer AUGH!) doesn’t do it, that line sure as hell will. Given Joe’s line (‘I wish I could say he was only like this after the divorce’) I think Sarah has ample evidence to conclude that yes, he was a terrible husband.
And exactly 0% evidence that the divorce was Joe’s fault, go figure.
Incidentally I forgot that at one point Hank literally compared Dorothy to Hitler…UGH JOYCE YOUR PARENTS ARE THE WORST.
“Were,” hopefully, in Hank’s case.
To be fair he only did that after Carol pulled the Godwin’s law and if he is anything like his elder daughter then he might want to try to pick his battles, he seems like the conflict-adverse type to me, and his sticking out his neck to inform Joyce about what was going on with Toedad does make me think he might change for the better.
Yeah, but the way he did it: “who else was maybe partly Jewish?” makes it pretty clear he’s not just following along there.
Given that the points in comparison are Blaine and Toedad, Joyce’s parents are not, in fact, the worst.
… but yes, they’re bad. Though Hank’s showing signs of reforming.
Mostly just “be like Joe”…
The readers, two days ago: “no ones allowed to say Sarah is mean anymore.”
Sarah, today: “Oh no, I’m mean as fuck.”
RIGHT!? It’s like she heard them and went “Watch me prove YOU wrong”
I wonder if Willis saw those comments, looked at the upcoming comics, and went “Whelp.”
I had to go back and tell them I have bad news from the future…x.x
Sarah is the best AND the worst! And by worst I mean kinda an arsehole.
Even Sarah cops to being mean. Smart, and mean.
Crap. Screwed up my link.
I think the “he” there is Richard, not Joe.
That contextually fits and would make a LOT more sense.
Hmm, you might be onto something
That was my take too
it would be shitty to say TO him, but sassy comments about someone when they’re not around, especially someone who has actively been a shithead in front of her multiple times, a day after (or the day of?) a traumatic event hardly seems worth the shock and disgust of this thread.
I agree. And also, she could actually mean Joe’s dad. “his” fault instead of “her”
Joe outright told her that.
Yeah, I was reading it as “his” referring to Richard. I mean, he was far from a peach when Sarah met him, and Joe is pretty open about his dad being a jerkwad.
“Sassy” is a pretty weird description here.
Given that (a) Sarah has met — and been hit upon by! — Joe’s dad (as noted), and (b) Sarah’s most recent interaction with Joe was Joe saying that Joyce hadn’t believed that Sarah had been manipulating her, and (c) the interaction before that was Joe being grumpy at her for manipulating Joyce (that is, Joe was grumpy on Joyce’s behalf). . .
I strongly suspect that Sarah’s remark, while being in-character mean, was also more than a little facetious and unserious.
At first reading the comic, I thought “his fault” meant Joe’s father.
If she is talking about Joe, I’d think she was being sarcastic, trying to tell Joyce, her parents’ divorce would be her fault either.
I doubt she was actually genuinely proposing it was really Joe’s fault. She doesn’t like him, but I think it was more just her being flippant than anything else.
Besides, she’s met Richard. That mystery kinda solves itself.
Could it be that she meant Joe’s dad and not Joe himself?
She met his dad iirc
I an willing to wager a small bet that says Sarah brings up that possibility to show Joyce how ridiculous it would be to blame herself.
After a re-read, it’s highly possible the “his fault” is “Joe’s dad”
which is no doubt true
saying out of fairness to Sarah, who in her meanness should at least have PRECISION meanness
Yeah, that was cruel, even by Sarah’s standards. Hell, that’s brutal even by Mike standards.
She did just get kidnapped like 24 hours(ish?) ago. I think being a little extra mean to someone not present is an understandable show of emotional stress, if not the healthiest.
Smartest thing my mom ever did was divorce my dad. Wish it hadn’t tahen her 25 years to do it.
Omg I feel this so hard ♡
Mine are both crazy in opposite directions and I can’t imagine them together, like mater and anti mater, but I always thought they’d have kept each other’s craziness in check when it came to parenting.
“Mother” and “anti-mother”?
*claps*
Literally as soon as I learned what divorce was as a little kid I started looking forward to the day my mom would do that, but it didn’t finally happen until I was eighteen which was long enough for him to wreck the ever loving hell out of her self-esteem.
I feel that last bit SO HARD
unmarried
doubleplusunmarried
A+
re-un-married
Happily married since 1997.
I’m sorry, am I playing this game incorrectly?
Yes.
You’re not supposed to get it right until the second time around and then you appreciate it more.
Random Sarah fact drop, sure.
I kinda wonder who ended up paying for her to… oh, she’s on a scholarship.
Yep, which is why she went so hard on maintaining her grades because without her scholarship(s) she can’t be here.
Ok, yeah, Joyce’s parent’s marriage is utterly doomed.
Not th at it wasn’t anyway, but now it’s doomed by dramatic irony as well as her mother being actively evil.
Let’s see
-Going behind your significant other’s back
-Taking money from the mob
– Bailing out the guy you held your youngest daughter at gun point.
-Not showing a lick remorse afterwords.
Yeah that feels like grounds for divorce to me.
Don’t forget that if Hank continues his path of questioning the church’s nastier tendencies, that means he and Carol are unequally yoked.
So the yokes on him?
Sarah that was mean, Joe may be an asshole but no kid should ever be blamed for their parents marriage failing. Also is this where we are going to learn that Hank and Carol are on their way to a divorce, but Joyce is going to refuse to accept it? She seems to have a hard enough time accepting that her parents don’t see eye-to-eye on everything and that they keep secrets from each other.
. . . Is there some big Anti-Divorce thing in the Fundi’ community I’ve never heard of? Like I know that us Catholics, or rather less so with us “Raised Catholics”, can be a bit a bit squeamish on the idea but it’s not some dirty word or horrible fate. Sometimes it just happens and people need to split apart so that they can be happy.
Depends on the denomination at least a bit, I suspect, but when you’re operating off the assumption womenfolk are their father or husband’s (or nearest male relative if the dad’s dead I guess) property rather than having agency of their own?
Then yes, that does tend to happen. Given Ross, I am not at all surprised.
Also I’m pretty sure Jesus has more to say on the topic of divorce and remarriage and how they’re both awful than he does on homosexuality? I seem to recall that being a thing I read once.
You remember correctly. Matthew 5:32.
Well, I’m not deep into historical fact from 2000+ years ago.
But to me it reads like “ Hey guy, you cannot throw your wife out on the street just on a vim (darn, I am sure ‘on a vim’ has been idiomatic English at some time, but nowadays google just returns matches about the editor), only if she cheated on you first.”
Which might give women some protection here?
It might help if you tried looking for “on a whim”.
😱🤯🤣
Its actually one of the things we can be pretty certain are actually historical, because a not insignificant number of the “letters to the x” have chunks that are about “okay so even so jesus said ‘no divorce whatsoever’ if it DOES happen here’s the right way to do it.” Principle of inconvenience basically, people don’t make things up that are inconvenient to them, and the stuff jesus said about divorce appears to have been inconvenient to the early Christians, so the early Christian’s probably didn’t make it up.”
Speaking as someone raised RC, divorce or separation is OK. It’s the remarriage afterwards that was the big no-no, because of the “what God has joined together let no man put asunder” thing.
Although that was back when I was still a good little blotter even younger than Joyce is here, and since I never did get married I don’t know what may have changed in the fifty years since then.
Jesus has a few repeated messages:
* Be nice to poor people
* Rich people suck
* Don’t divorce
* Follow me for eternal life
Wasn’t really all that keen on marriage in the first place, iirc.
A lot of the early church writings should be seen in an apocalyptic context though – no real point in marriage or divorce since God’s going to end the world and usher in His kingdom any day now.
Yeah, especially given early Christians had to redefine the term ‘Messiah’ to fit Jesus into it, the apocalyptic thought process was a lot clearer then and lost with the passage of time.
Well, eventually it became obvious that the Kingdom wasn’t really at hand and they needed to actually live in the world a bit longer.
Even during the period of the writing of the Gospels, this shift can be seen.
Divorce implies you had a broken household, which is a matter of shame. Some still consider it a sin, and believe that remarrying is adultery.
a lot of them basically believe that when THEY or anyone in their in group divorces it’s justified and god is cool with it, its just everyone outside their in group who’s living in sin.
Ah yes, THAT exception.
It’s so convenient and versatile, it can apply to just about anything they’re ordinarily against!
Some Protestant churches actively vilify and shun those who’ve been divorced. The husband is blamed for not having been a good enough head of the family to keep the wife in line, and the wife is kinda just labelled an adulteress (or insert more awful naming I’d rather not type). Members and pastors of the church I joined to figure out if I believe in God 15 years ago said this explicitly…I am now firmly agnostic for this and several other reasons.
Regardless of what the theory or doctrine regarding divorce is, statistically Evangelicals are more likely to be divorced than the average.
Possibly those statistics drive the increasing vilification and interest in things like “covenant marriage”.
Ew. This brings up bad memories for me. Trust me Joyce. You don’t want parents together that don’t want to be. Divorce is not always a bad thing.
Willis really is leaning hard on a Hank/Carol divorce arc.
I mean, Hank and Carol are based on his real life parents, right?
People have split up over less.
Well can you blame him? I mean, have you _met_ them both?
I suspect Carol’s awfulness has always been in the back of Hank’s mind, but recent events have punted it to the forefront. It’s not going to be an easy ride for him, either.
She’ll just DARVO and play herself up as the victim because she “OnLy wAnTs WhAT’s bEsT”.
I suspect they’ve basically been in sync until recently, even if Carol has been the one leaning towards more extreme positions. It’s only since Hank started learning from Joyce and Carol and Joyce have come into conflict that he’s seen the problem.
And there’s probably still some conflict avoidance that’ll delay the final resolution here.
Well, we’re speculating that it’s a divorce arc. There’s some strain in the marriage at the moment and Sarah is hinting at the possibility because Sarah’s doom and gloom. That’s about all that’s there in canon. I think it’s a very plausible direction for the story to go, but Willis hasn’t leaned into it all that much yet.
There’s clearly a lot of dramatic irony in play with Joyce so obviously, vocally uncomfortable with the subject, which is I think where a lot of people are taking the ‘okay, yep, this is happening’ from. (Certainly I am.)
Hank’s significantly conflict-averse, so I could see him NOT doing so if it were anything short of ‘you bailed out the dude who threatened our daughter at gunpoint to kidnap his daughter, her best friend, and he proceeded to immediately kidnap HER with the help of a mobster. Who then killed him, and kidnapped Joyce himself.’ Some of these events were probably not foreseeable (Blaine going to murder.) Some probably were if the congregation had done any research and looked this gift horse in its mouth (maybe not quite ‘Blaine’s a mobster,’ but certainly ‘he doesn’t appear to be all that involved in the church or following the case to this point, and this is a LOT of money for a complete stranger to offer for no apparent reason, something’s shady here.’) The key point was INCREDIBLY foreseeable. (Of COURSE Ross was going to threaten Becky again in a way that gets Joyce involved.) Given that, I think he’s going to be EXTREMELY pissed off.
Yup, definitely a likelihood. That said, it’s a marriage that has stood for over twenty years, they seem to get along well on the level of personal chemistry, and both have religious… not so much roadblocks as speedbumps when it comes to divorce. I think there’s a pretty good chance that Hank (who would almost have to be the initiator in this case) would try to work things out even given that Carol did a really bad thing and even given that he’s going to be extremely pissed off. Especially since Carol is prepared to play a half-dozen “we couldn’t have known” cards, which if far from entirely accurate would at least contain a kernel of truth in that Carol had no idea that it would play out like this. I think he’d put a lot of effort into trying to persuade or reform Carol or something rather than it leading to divorce any time soon enough for us to see it.
It’s a thing I’ve noticed with religious people who make a gradual shift on doctrinal grounds from the nastier, stringent side of their religion towards the more open and accepting side. They often extend that openness and acceptance towards the nasty people that used to be (and still are) their friends and family. The very shift that got them out of the worst parts of religion keeps them from condemning or judging those parts they got out of.
Would he have moral grounds to divorce her? I’d say yes. She did something very bad that threatened one of their children. But I don’t think he will unless she makes things worse. … which she quite likely will.
Oh yeah, it’s the dramatic irony (and the inevitability of Shit Escalating over the course of this storyline until Hank is forced to choose between Carol and at least one of his daughters) that have me convinced more than the situation itself. Like, I would not be at all shocked if he’s still in appeasement mode now, angry but trying to keep things together… but once Joyce enters that situation, she is going to have no patience for Carol’s bullshit, and she is REALLY good at expressing herself when she’s more angry than anxious, as those last scenes with Toedad showed.
Also narratively, someone’s gonna have to keep paying for Joyce’s tuition and I CANNOT imagine Carol isn’t going to try and play that card, and Hank’s basically the only option there so it’s gonna come down to a big fight there. (Unless Jordan turns out to have somehow become ridiculously wealthy since the estrangement and swoops in, Deus Ex Sibling. Maybe he’s an influencer. Or worse, a professional game streamer.)
I’m sure it couldn’t be that bad.
wow, sarah
Oof, I see divorced parents and some misplaced feelings of guilt in Joyce’s future…
Yeah Wholesome Joe action! 🙂
I… have a strong feeling that Joyce is going to need to get used to that word, soon.
It’s better to split up rather than to stay in a toxic relationship where both parties are becoming increasingly unhappy just because they think staying married is what they should do.
Moral Orel flashbacks intensify.
Um, Joe is not in the room. She did not say it to him. Seriously. Talking shit happens. No one is earnest all the time.
Even if it did get back to Joe, he’d recognize that it wasn’t in earnest. Just that Sarah dislikes him.
Agreed. I like both Joe and Sarah. Sarah does not like Joe, which is fair. She copped to being smart and mean when she got Ross’s car towed back before the first kidnapping arc, but saying a single deliberately rude, untrue thing about a person she dislikes, not to his face…well, that’s pretty mild as sins go
OH YEAH THIS DEF THAT ARC.
So, yeah. Now, to be clear, the divorce rates for Evangelicals/Fundamentalists* are not statistically different than any other group. So yes, to be clear, they’re super weird about it, but that doesn’t STOP them from doing it, because for them, their divorce was the “good divorce.” It’s the same for them and abortion.
*there’s a difference, SORT OF, and Joyce generally reads as more Evangelical to me, Fundie is more “wear nothing but ankle-length skirts, have an organist and sing traditional hymns in church,” but the lines are blurry and Willis himself seems to identify more with Fundie than Evangelical last I checked. Honestly, the differences are largely academic, and these aren’t names most of these groups would refer to THEMSELVES by.
Nice may not want the D, but I’m betting Hank does.
Both versions.
I don’t know how “Joyce“ turned into “Nice,” but DYAC.
Well if I had to guess I’d say first you wrote N instead of J, then you wrote I instead of O, after that of course you meant to write Y but hit the C button instead, then because you remembered E comes after C (which you had just written) in JOYCE you wrote E.
Nah, they just wrote it with an Aussie accent and Autocorrect did what it does best.
So, Sarah’s parents are divorced, and there was an earlier strip where she offhandedly mentions lying to her parents about loving them… Yeah, definitely starting to get a clearer picture of why Sarah was already pretty antisocial when she got to college.
Cynicism isn’t born out of nowhere. Sarah would be a different person if she had a functioning family.
She wasn’t as antisocial as she is now though, Raidah played a fun hand in gluing Sarah’s shell on tighter than ever; she was the one who said hi to Dana first and she did it with a smile too!
Yes, Raidah’s crap pushed her deeper into her shell, but she was somewhat antisocial already:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/networking/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/carl/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/crusty/
Sarah saying that it was Joe’s fault because Joyce is worried that her folks becoming “unmarried” will be her fault, so rather than letting that worry fester Sarah’s drawing it to the surface so it can be discussed.
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce. “No longer married” would be a better euphemism for “divorced”. “Not married” sounds like they never were, and instead had a kid out of wedlock, which I think in your world would be… worse?
It would be a etter euphemism, but one that still implies divorce is a possibility. Let us recall that Joyce’s immediate reaction on finding out that Joe’s parents were divorced was to want to plan a wacky sitcom plot to get them back together. “Not married” implies that they still might get (re)married.
The issue seems to be less about the sanctity of marriage, than about the horrifying thought that “Happily ever after” might not always be a thing and that once again romantic comedies have lied to her. The idea that people who get married might not be perfect for each other; even worse, the possibility that people might change, and stop being good for each other even if they used to be.
Joyce craves stability, which is constantly being kicked out from under her after a lifetime she believed was perfectly stable. Divorce is destabilizing. “Not married” is a state that denies the destabilizing fact of divorce, in the same way that we accept that tuna casserole does not have cream of mushroom soup in it.
Nail on the head with Joyce’s anxieties there. Remember, before the timeline treadmilled it so she’s probably too young now, she was a huge Twilight fan. Happily ever after stagnation and One True Love both.
“Not married” echoes the Catholic idea of annulment, where a marriage retroactively never was real, so you can get married to someone else, since you were never married at all.
Joyce wouldn’t like that.
I kinda find it charming that after everything that happened, she still has these little neuroses that are ingrained. I just laughed so hard at her not wanting to say the word “divorce.”
I wonder if annulment would be easier to say?
Neuroses are still a pathological problem. Maybe Joyce will finally be free when she stops trying to control things out of her control, beginning with how people make her food.
Annulment would retroactively make her a bastard, so no.
I thought annulment was only possible if both parties could believably say it wasn’t consummated?
Yeah I think this is correct… and the Browns have what, 5 kids??
Historically, that “believably” got stretched quite a long way – especially when the powerful wanted to remarry.
No, annulment can be done for reasons other than that. My mother with five children got one before she remarried. Its a process but it can be done in the current RC.
That or if there’s some reason why the marriage shouldn’t be considered valid.
Annulment has legal meanings and church law meanings. In neither is consummation the only factor. Otherwise you could rape someone and make it a marriage. That would be very biblical but isn’t current law.
More like informed consent, since it more like a contract. This girls and even younger women can get marriages annulled in churches on account of immaturity. Or their partner wasn’t really committed to the marriage, which again makes it an invalid contract. Or lie to make the marriage happen. Again, no contract enforced then.
None of these affect legitimacy. Under current laws, you have to support your children. And none of them have a right to inherit if you don’t want them too. That isn’t affected by the validity of the marriage contract.
Hasn’t always been that way, even in my lifetime. But that’s the short version of both US law and Catholic teaching. I really hate when soaps (DOOL) have someone pull “in the eyes of the church” when all the characters are multiply married and divorced and every baby needs several DNA tests to identify their father and sometime their mother.
I think the idea stayed in my head because of Yentl giving Avigdor a letter To the rabbi about that so he could marry Haddass.
Which does make it Jewish law about 150 years ago.
And now I’ve got “D-I-V-O-R-C-E” stuck in my head (not the original by Tammy Wynette, but the much funnier Billy Connolly version).
As a child of un-marriage, I spent a lot of time thinking about what happened and how things got to that point.
It didn’t help that the “un” of it was….
Very unamicable.
Still, despite the everything, I agree with Sarah and Joe.
It would have been worse had they stayed together.
Joyce, divorces aren’t bad things. They can free some people from marriages that shouldn’t have ever happened. People don’t divorce because there’s no longer love, but because there was something wrong, something that made irronciliable differences. Rapist husbands, controlling wives, infidelities, physical abuse, gaslighting, verbal abuse, stealing money, etc. Better to be happy on your own than live misserable like the parents of Moral Orel who seem to only listen to The Mountain Goats in their heads.
Fuck I even Compared Joyce’s situation with her family & hometown to Moral Oral once.
I still don’t think hearing that would help anyone having their parents go through divorce though. Even if it may be true in some instances.
Damn, Sarah, that’s awfully harsh.
That said – YAY more Sarah backstory! I want!
Yep. This might as well be a big flaming beacon signalling Hank and Carol getting a divorce [Which, I mean, I’m kind of 110% on-board for, given their different interpretations and handlings of the situations related to Joyce, Becky, and Ross].
Still, there’s foreshadowing, and then there’s blatantly telling the audience exactly what a forthcoming plot point will be.
I’m kind of the opinion that our author has been foreshadowing this ever since the aftermath of Ross’s first attempt to “reclaim” Becky. Ever since then Hank has been on a redemptive arc, while Carol has been on a stubborn and rigid (to the point of doubling down) arc. Add to that the hints we’ve gotten of Joyce’s absent older brother (the literal “prodigal son” of the family) and the only thing that’s changed recently is the author has grown tired of being coy about it.
Also Joyce is somewhat of an Author avatar, and Hank & Carol are somewhat similar to the authors own (divorced) parents. This particular train has been coming down the tracks lights blazing, horn blaring for a long time now. It’s just gotten louder recently.
The Prodigal Son was famous for returning. Somehow I don’t think Joyce’s brother will.
Fair point. He just seems to fit the parable (with Joyces a-hole missionary brother as the annoyed son). Maybe he’ll return post divorce (err-“not married”) to complete Hanks redemptive arc and highlight Carol as being beyond redemption.
Time will tell, it always does.
Bad news: as usual, Joyce is gonna end up with the opposite of what she said she wanted.
Good news: As usual, Joyce is gonna end up with the opposite of what she said she wanted.
There’s been a horrifyingly high number of Drumpf ads on this site lately. It’s rather concerning.
The ads you get served usually have something to do with your browsing history. I’ve only been seeing ads for Motorola phones and The Home Depot, because I’m rooting a Moto phone and I’ve been shopping for shelving units and a new garbage disposal.
If you typically use an ad blocker but have this site whitelisted, the networks might not have a good read on your browsing habits and are just giving you random default ads.
Since their ads here are wasted, and their money flows (at least some of it) to Willis, I consider it karma.
Girl Genius put out a message to their readers today about political ads showing up on their page: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php#.XvyfsoYTE0M
TL;DR political ads are pretending to be other kinds of ads and getting past filters that way. Could be your problem here.
Also, if the divorce bomb does go off, then between Ross’ death and Becky’s secured fall into sin completing the extinction of the MacIntyre family…her own daughter’s ‘fall from grace’…and the now likely destruction of her own marriage…
Everything Carol feared about sending their child to a secular college will have been totally vindicated, and not a month and a half after helping her daughter move in.
If there is a God, She is certainly trying very hard to tell somebody something and the dial is about to spring off the amplifier.
Only if Carol is really super bad at parsing cause and effect.
…okay yeah.
At least Joyce is the youngest…
Is Joyce worried her parents might split up? So much of what she once thought was bedrock has turned into shifting sands.
Joyce see a “not-married-orce” in the near future, and she doen’t like it.
Fucking hell, Joyce needs a decade of therapy to get over all her shit.
Between Joyce and Amber, they’ve probably experienced more trauma between them than the rest of the remaining extended cast of DOA (probably should throw Sal and Becky in that mix, too).
I only had my mom my whole life. I find it even WEIRDER to think about the idea of having TWO parents. That’s fucking weird.
My parents split up when I was like 5 or 6, I had occasionally see my dad every now and then yet they would had me believe they were still a thing till my Mom finally admitted the truth when I was 14. Too bad by then I already assumed.
The best way to avoid the Big D is to never get married in the first place.
seems like a good plan
Another certain way to avoid dealing with any Big Ds is never get into the porno industry.
Many people in the porn industry are happily married. Look at Willis himself. He is an admitted internet porn lord and appears to be happily married and successfully raising two wonderful sons.
However, I do agree that marriage is the leading cause of becoming “not married”.
Plas’s second comment is just a dick joke
And here I thought that all Protestant churches were OK with divorce. You never stop learning.
I think she’s afraid her parents are going to get divorced because her mother is evil and nearly got her killed, and her father might disapprove of that.
Although once she’s had a bit more time that might start to seem like more valid reasoning.
Fundie folks are sometimes anti-divorce. I think that’s partly how “covenant marriage” became a thing in the US awhile back.
D-I-V-O-R-C-E.
Tammy Wynette?
I’m not foreshadowing you’re foreshadowing!
Wow Sarah whats a horrible thing to say about anyone when you discover their parents are divorced.
Also i hope Joyce parents divorce…her mother is horrible
I would give Joyce some advice that I’ve told and been told before. Divorce is not an evil thing. It’s the realization that two people aren’t right for each other. It is neither evil nor wrong and trying to force something to work that doesn’t is often how a bad relationship turns into domestic abuse, cheating, or worst of all… A successful marriage where the two people -hate- each other, and the children end up receiving it all.
Ah, it’s this time of the year again. The Willis sprouts new neuroses for Joyce. Food-borne and language. Anything else?
Going through the Big D and don’t mean
DallasDenver (because we’re not fighting aliens this time)Now I ship Joe and Sarah.
I can’t tell which one I feel more sorry for
“I bet his his fault” woooooooooow.
Oh come now, that was beneath you, Sarah. 😛 There are a lot of kids from divorced families who DO grow up thinking that it’s all their fault (a fallacy sometimes encouraged by the parents themselves, seeking to use their kid as a weapon against the other). Divorces are often messy and complex, but it’s cruel to just point at the kid and lay all the blame on them. Even if it IS Joe. 😉
The problem with using “not married” is it could mean too many different things. It could mean divorced like Joyce is using it, or it could mean someone’s parents were never married.
That’s actually how it works in Catholicism if I remember right. Rather than divorcing the couple the Church just cancels their marriage as if it never happened.
You don’t remember right.
I don’t? How did it work then?
A divorce and an annulment are two different things though. One is being married and no longer being so, which Catholics cannot do. The other is technically having never been married. Like filing the wrong spiritual paperwork.
The example I was given involved lying when saying your vows. If you were sincere at the time, you can’t annul. If one of you was lying through their teeth before god and everyone, then you’re not bound by it. Obviously this particular example would be hard to prove to anybody’s satisfaction.
Ah, which means you remember it right.
Yeah “let’s pretend it never happened” kind of thing. Much harder to get than a civil divorce but technically possible.
There’s strict rules to get a marriage annulled though. I think one of them involved that the partners can’t have had sex.
Yeah though they can get a civil divorce (at least in my country) but if either of them will ever want to have a Church wedding again it will be impossible for them.
Non-consummation makes it much easier, and after enough time may be sufficient in itself, but it isn’t strictly necessary. For instance, if you find out that your spouse is also your half sibling, that’s grounds for an annulment.
Wait thats not the “D word” i remember
I know that this is Joyce, but how indoctrinated do you have to be to think of “divorce” as something you can’t mention? Or is this the fear of her own parents breaking up?
I think mostly the latter.
Probably some of the former, but the idea up ends her worldview in more than one way. The obvious one pushed here with her parents not being the one unit she’s always thought of them as, but also her entire romcom/”true love” vision of romance.
Having your parents divorce can be dificult even when you think its a good thing. Some of my siblings took it well for some it was crushing.
Joyce is not really in denial, she is talking around it because she sees it is possible. She’s talking to someone who might be able to help her wrap her mind around it.
I Sarah just being cheeky, there? I guess she get a pass for being the kid of a divorced couple herself, but that’s simply not the kind of things you should say.
Ok, next mountain for Joyce to climb. Seriously, after all she has learned and exerienced, how can she be so DUMB?
A lifetime of being conditioned to think a certain way?
And two months to start to recover from it.
She’s lived her life in a cult.
Being conditioned to believe certain things unbelievably leads to you believing certain things and religion tends to be opinionated about a lot of things so you get a lot of views and opinions to work through. Many of which exist independently of each other despite all existing within the bubble of ‘things you were taught which are flawed’.
Panel 4 Sarah reminds me of my parents when I was Sarah’s age. They stayed married too long also.
Is this the first time we’ve heard of Sarah’s parents’ divorce?
And with this, is totally clear that the divorce of Joyce’s parents will be very, very soon.
She doesn’t believe in divorce? What is she, a 15th century catholic?
Historical humour! I like you!
She thinks Joe’s parents’ divorce could be his fault? Some insight right there in to how she was raised to think about families… and if her parents aren’t divorced after this arc, how they will respond to Jocelyn coming out.
Pretty sure that was Sarah saying that.
Ah Right you are
I read Sarah’s comment as to show Joyce how ridiculous it is to blame a kid for their parent’s divorce.
Actually, I think that’s the key here. I suspect that Joyce is afraid that, if her parents divorce, then it’s her fault.
If I were Sarah, I’d find a way to use the word “divorce” as much as possible.
And yet by vehemently denying the word’s very existence, Joyce cedes to it enormous power.
First she killed the ‘F’. Now she terminates the ‘D’. Joyce, the Alphabet Killer.
Alt text: Joyrathy confirmed.
(Yes, I get what the “D” is here, just let me dream)
But Dorothy also starts with D!
I see a lot of people in the comments saying that Sarahs remark is ok since she didn’t say it to Joe directly. Thats a bit hypocritical.
If a shitty thing becomes acceptable if the offender doesn’t do it to the afflicted directly, then we cannot fault Joe for his list, since he was not the person who made it public.
I’m not saying this means Joe didn’t act like an asshole. I just think Sarah is ALSO acting like an asshole.
Both Characters are actually quite similar in their overall characterisation. They act like total assholes to strangers and people who try to get close to them.
Thats why they are both my favourite characters. They have the most potential to grow. Not that Joe has much competition in the male department since the rest are one-dimensional characters at best.
Marriage is a contract done mostly for financial convenience that has shockingly little to do with family
No, Sarah, I think it’s more like Joe is his Dad’s fault.
Yeah, Joe is a pervy womanizer and tabulator of a gross objectifying list, so there’s plenty to hate about him. But Sarah’s comment, yeesh, that’s uncalled for.
I really, really *want* to read it that Sarah means Joe’s father is at fault for the divorce and not Joe, but I don’t think that’s what she means.
I grew up with two people that should have never met, let alone got married. All I really remember are profane screaming matches followed by periods of uneasy calm. People staying together because of their imaginary friend who lives in the sky {my opinion, YMMV} and throwing the dysfunction up the line while being miserable themselves defies logic, for me anyway.
Pardon the expression, but you’re preaching to the choir, my dude.