I was thinking babies have uneven/single teeth while their first set is growing in to begin with. Thus why babies are often depicted with a single front tooth in cartoons.
It’s a bad precedent to start, theme naming, because eventually you run out of names with that theme and have to resort to things like “Jinger” and “Joy-Anna”.
Very unlikely, IMO, for two reasons… 1) In the other universe, Joss and Joyce are the only ladies among their siblings. 2) It seems that Joyce actually knows what’s up with Jordan, so it’s virtually impossible that Joss doesn’t, so you’d think at the very least, it would have gotten obliquely mentioned that she’s staying in the closet because she saw the result of her big sister coming out…
I thought Joyce had been unclear about Jordan, with the implication she’d been young when contact was cut off and they’d kept the details from her?
It’s hard to track down the specific mentions though, since Jordan isn’t tagged when mentioned and I’ve got no idea who she might have been talking to about it.
Jocelyne would be far more likely to know, I agree.
Near as I can tell, one of the biggest clues when it comes to fundie family background is when half the comments are talking about him strawmanning Christians. Those are autobiographical.
Per Willis, one of the important differences between him and Joyce is that Joyce is the youngest. If I’m remembering correctly (no guarantees) Willis is the oldest.
Oh, it’s totally chill! I didn’t used to know either. It’s the better policy cuz you won’t accidentally out them, or trigger feelings of dysphoria for them, and it help shows that you do recognize their true gender. Haha, at least I’m pretty sure that’s the rationale.
Unless you’re dealing with someone who’s partially out, where it’s safer to use the deadname/pronouns unless you’re sure they’re out to everyone who might pick up on it.
Especially in fictional cases, it’s also sometimes extremely awkward talking around other character’s perceptions.
it varies, some are militant than others about it. If you didn’t mean any ill intent then you don’t have to apologize.
And it is one of the days that transgender people can get away with dressing as their true selves, but I suspect there was a bit of fury about that with Joshua/Jocelyn’s parents…
I mean, ya, you still have to apologize regardless of intent. If I knock you down the stairs, it hurts, and I should apologize, even if I didn’t mean to.
Um yes? Good lord, an apology for accidentally hurting someone, whether physically or by causing offense, costs nothing. It’s the basic kind of interaction that makes our society function. Jesus H. Christ.
Mate, it’s not complicated, if you use the wrong name or pronouns and it makes someone feel bad, you should apologize. Literally all you have to do is say the word “sorry.” It’s not a huge imposition, it takes a fraction of a second to do and lets the person know you didn’t do it on purpose and will try not to do it again. That’s very basic social interaction.
It may just be my Canadian upbringing, but in fact ‘I didn’t mean to do something hurtful’ is, IME, far more likely to bring an apology than a situation with actual malice – an apology is a sign of remorse, and if you hurt somebody without meaning it, you’re more likely to be remorseful in a time period where your apology will be useful than if you really intended harm.
Seriously, Canadians apologize like we breathe. There’s sympathy sorry’s where you say sorry because you recognize something sucks even though you had nothing to do with it, there’s ‘sorry, my bad’s when you actually did something wrong….and then there are sorry’s you give out not because you actually did something wrong but because you could considerably conceive you are inconveniencing or annoying someone like when you both start to walk in ways you would run in to someone but you both realize it and stop before you actually run into someone.
“Transvestite” is also often considered an outdated and sometimes offensive term, though I have known people who use it for themselves. I’m not sure if you meant transgender, which is different, or someone who crossdresses.
Whoa! This seems pretty aggressive for Jocelyne? I had her pegged as more of a keeping-her-head-down kinda Brown daughter… Maybe she became more cowed when she got older for some reason (until now, inspired by Joyce’s strong spirit back to mischief)?
Possibly she became more cowed when she worked some things out about herself, and realized the risks? Or alternately, this was the one time of the year she could dress as herself. The alt-text could refer to her, after all.
…Wow. I got that one wrong! But yes. Jordan getting estranged would be, probably, when Jocelyne realized “Oh God, there’s consequences now” and meeting with John would be when she realized “This isn’t the family I grew up with anymore. They would torture me.”
Interesting thought that what happened to Jordan may have been when she realized the consequences would be serious – especially if Jordan’s offenses wouldn’t be seen to be as severe as hers.
By the meeting with John we saw on the other hand, I think she knew damn well it was the family she grew up with. There was no revelation there. She’s been walking that fine line for a long time.
She navigates things, and has always been good at it.
If she had openly defied her parents, they would have come down on her like a ton of bricks.
Instead, she figured out a way to do the right thing by her little sister while also preemptively not giving her parents a reason to stop her from doing that.
It makes sense. Often Halloween becomes a super important thing for trans people because it’s the only night of the year when you’re closeted (especially to yourself) where you have an excuse to dress closer to how you’d like than you would otherwise or at least escape your own dysphoria in a persona and a costume for a bit.
So for Jocelyne even if she would not have been allowed any feminine costumes, it might have represented a type of wish she wanted to keep experiencing while lacking the words for it. That alone is enough to make the quiet one unusually vocal.
Now, the darker flipside of this might be the family recognizing she liked it a “little too much” and being more amenable to anti-Halloween messaging due to worrying about Jocelyne “straying from godly messages”.
Cerberus, I was wondering about that darker flipside, too, though I wonder if that were the case, would the family have come down harder on not allowing her to go trick-or-treating with Joyce? I’m hoping the next few days of comic give us some more insights. 🙂
Dammit, this explains both my absolute love of Halloween as well as my family’s insistence for years that they buy me only the girliest pink princesses of costumes. I was not expecting personal revelations today.
Reminds me of the tickling charm story from Harry Potter. Any time a witch let themselves be caught in pre-industrial times, they hit the flames with this charm so instead of horrible burning it just… Tickled them.
Joshua was the best brother. . . .do you think that she will ever come out to Joyce in the comic? I’d LIKE to think that Joyce would take it in stride and accept her instantly. Certainly seems like she was her favorite brother so it shouldn’t be *that* hard for Joyce to accept her right?
Joyce has very stereotypical views of gender roles (she believed gay dudes played with Barbies for a while while she was dating Ethan). I think she will eventually come around, but she might not be immediately accepting, since she is very entrenched in traditional roles that can come out in a bad way. It took Becky being gay for her to finally reconsider her views on homosexuality, but transgender is a different ball park.
It’s my hope that the combination of Joyce becoming more open minded, and the fact that this will mean she has a big sister, will combine to make her accept it.
But the thing about Joyce is that she basically always does the right thing eventually, she just sometimes needs a running start to make it over the brainwashing hurdle. So I know she will accept Jocelyne for who she is. I just hope it happens fast enough that Jocelyne doesn’t have to experience any heartbreak.
I think there’s a possibility that someone will have to talk sense into her about it. Because a lot of people will do the whole, “I accept that Joshua wants to crossdress, but I won’t accept that he is a woman. I love him just the same.” (Something that people don’t realize is poisonous because they are clouded by their own bigotry)
And the only people who can talk sense into her that she will really listen to are Dorothy, Becky, and Joe (maybe Jacob, but he doesn’t know her that well). Carla is also a possibility because she’s also trans, and she’s blunt and gives no fucks.
Second guess is she will come to that realization herself after observing either Carol being a satchel of dicks about her daughter or Mary being a satchel of dicks about Carla.
I think even Carla would tread lightly here, if only to not inadvertently push Joyce further from your first paragraph into Mary territory. (Joyce isn’t that bigoted by a long shot, but does Carla know that?)
Agreed, though I’m not sure it’ll be as simple as having someone talk sense into her.
Her reaction to Jocelyne will awkward, confused, loving, messed up and painful as hell, though she’ll come around and be happy to have a big sister in the end.
Unless as you suggest it happens in front of their parents and Carol (and maybe even Hank) behave as we expect, in which case the whole process will be compressed and it’ll be pure righteous fury from about 2 beats in.
While Joyce is in no way prepared for this due to, to her knowledge, having had no interactions with trans people whatsoever and presumably knowing nothing about the topic, I think her current state of mind could make her more accepting.
She’s currently in “question everything” mode. She’s not all that knowledgeable, but she now understands that there’s a lot that she doesn’t know, and that a lot of what she thought she knew was false. So while she’s likely going to have a negative initial reaction, I thinks she’s at a point where she might be able to keep that negative reaction to herself and immediately begin questioning it.
I think it’s almost a certainty that eventually Jocelyne will talk to Joyce about being Jocelyne. If DoA is about anything, it’s about Joyce’s grown as a person, and learning about Jocelyne is going to be huge for Joyce.
Timing is another matter. Really, the best time for this to happen is at some family gathering, and if it doesn’t happen around in-universe Thanksgiving, it might not happen until Christmas. Those are both years away IRL.
But who knows?, Willis might already have drawn the relevant strips, and they might already be sitting in the buffer. Wise are the ways of the Willis.
Best and worst time.
Jocelyne won’t want to do it at a family gathering, even if she wants to out herself to Joyce, because that drastically increases the chances of it spilling over onto the rest of the family.
OTOH, most potential for drama. 🙂
I suspect this is an issue Joyce is going to need time and several steps to accept. First she’ll need to believe it’s an actual thing. Then she’ll need to learn it’s not a thing that can be ‘fixed’. Then she’ll learn it’s not something that even needs to be ‘fixed’.
I figure Carla will be the soft sell, someone she already thinks of in their preferred identity, and then her sister will be the harder sell as that will involve rethinking everything she thinks she knows about them.
I’m hoping she’ll come to those second two points, especially the last one, fairly fast, since that was an amount of her initial reaction to Becky and she figured out otherwise pretty immediately, and now has that experience as well.
Jocelyne took Joyce trick or treating because their parents didn’t like Halloween and she thought it was important for Joyce to be a regular kid. Joyce thought that since she went trick or treating, her family had no issues with Halloween.
Originally, Hank and Carol didn’t have a problem with Halloween, because they took John and Jordan trick-or-treating. Then something happened with Jordan that altered their perception of the holiday, and Jocelyne (then Joshua) had to take Joyce as their parents didn’t approve.
It’s surprising some enterprising conservative Christian didn’t come up with an acceptable alternative to D&D. Saints and Saints, where you roleplay clerics, who try to convert people, avoid being martyred, or be martyred, depending on the game master etc.
I’m thinking more in the terms of “fundie Christians trying to make a fundie Christian version of something popular will always botch it and make a far inferior product”.
The funny thing was that the panic was so focused on D&D, it often didn’t spill over to other RPGs, as long as they weren’t called D&D, because the family and the preachers didn’t have any clue.
Which has led to stories of parents banning D&D but being fine with their kids playing Call of Cthulhu or something.
And it’s not really the “moral code” or anything like that they’re concerned about. It’s the pretending to use magic and spells. It’s the gateway to the occult. It’s the same people trying to get Harry Potter banned from libraries in a later generation.
They don’t read them. They don’t look closely enough to see any moral code. It’s “popular and magic, must be Satan!”
Remember the campaign in Age of Empires where you start off with a lone priest, and you have to wololo your way to victory by converting enemy units? Imagine if that was the whole game.
No, this was a more detailed one that covered things like that contrary to IN canon, souls are indestructible, and the primacy of Jesus (who is also God) in everything. Canonically in IN no Servitor is sure exactly who or what Jesus was or is, and the Superiors aren’t telling. And souls can be destroyed, though it is rare and difficult.
There was a really interesting article about d&d posted on a religious site about a month ago. It was talking about how d&d should be embraced by the church, and I found it both sweet and a little frustrating. Considering the amoint of stigma the church placed on d&d in the 80’s, it feels weird especially when people in the comments basically stated they thought it would be a good conversion tool. Still not sure how I felt about it.
Near as I can tell the Christian community, even during the “Satanic Panic,” was kind of split on D&D. Lot of parents watching their kids play, realizing it’s basically harmless and gets their geeky kid some friends, and that was that. I always thought it was more sound and fury than anything else, although I was a little little kid getting into the game at the very tail end of it so maybe I just didn’t see anything around where I lived.
My Darling Bride and I joke about developing a couple of those themed Vacation Bible School programs. So far we’ve got ‘Deadly Sins – To Avoid, You Must Understand’, ‘Martyrs and Terminators’, and ‘Plagues of Egypt Week’ (boys excused on the last afternoon (at leader’s discretion)).
Do you suppose so? I remember Hank saying that although they didn’t always see eye to eye, but he’s still a good kid. And…I don’t know, it’s hard for me to imagine him describing a non-Christian that way, right after insisting Dorothy could not possibly be a good person.
I think it relates to Jocelyne, because John and Jordan wouldn’t
likely do something that would offend the parents before age 12. Jocelyne dressing as a woman, though. That would give them a problem with Halloween.
I’m surprised their church didn’t do the “trunk-or-treat” in the church parking lot so everybody could get their sugar on in a morally acceptable and controlled fashion. Or is that just a Southern Thing (TM)?
I’ve seen that done in the northeast as well, but more just as a safer community building thing for towns where the traditional wander the neighborhood isn’t really practical.
Still came with all the usual costumes and decorations though.
Either Jocelyn showing the parents old trick or treating photos made them realize the took Jordan trick or treating and he turned out bad, making them have a problem with Halloween, or they had a problem with Halloween after Jordan turned out bad and Jocelyn would insist on taking Joyce trick or treating still and show them the pictures to make a point about it being an important family tradition.
I suspect it was mostly just the Browns getting more and more fundie as the years went on and the propaganda sank deeper. There may have been a specific trigger with Jordan, though I’m not sure if that fits the timeline.
I am not seeing the clear indication that it was a problem with Jordan that turned them away from Halloween. How do we know it wasn’t a result of Jocelyne’s costume choices being highly inappropriate in the opinion of her parents?
The Browns have avoided talking much about Jordan, so he’s mysterious. Probably some massive plot twist when we find out why he’s estranged, and perhaps this gives Jocelyne and Joyce to be themselves to their family.
Because Jordan is The Problem Child(tm) from the implications we’ve seen. (parents dont talk about him, avoid conversations directed towards him, he’s not around, etc)
I just assumed that the Browns became more religiously conservative over the years, so their problem with Halloween developed sometime after John and Jordan but before Joyce.
That’s what happened to my family. They got ‘convicted’ everything got stricter and less fun. They even got rid of Toy Story (because of Sid). Eventually I had a semi arranged marriage because dating is evil… Course then I went bad and maybe it inspired them to loosen their grip. But maybe not. I don’t have a relationship with them so I wouldn’t know.
I’m one of the older kids in my family.
I think the heavy implication is that Jocelyn snuck Joyce out for trick or treating because their parents didn’t approve anymore. It’s not a big jump from there that Jocelyn wanted to wear “not gender appropriate” costumes and that was why this happened, but that’s not heavy.
My milder take is that initially the Browns had no problems with Halloween, then began to have misgivings after hearing negative stuff about it from their fellow churchgoers, to the point where they refused to directly participate, but not so much that they would begrudge little Joyce from participating. It may or may not have anything to do with Jordan or Jocelyne directly.
I’ve guessed before that Jordan’s black-sheep-ness is about him having turned his back on the church — but yeah, it’s beginning to look like there may have been a pagan element to it, and that Halloween got tarred with the same brush, so to speak.
What if he’s just Catholic? (I know that’s not “just” to Joyce’s family)
Actually, what if he’s one of the super normal things Joyce wasn’t allowed? Someone said DND already, so otherwise, if he started watching anime and got kicked out because it teaches ‘eastern religion’ or collected star wars memorabilia (for the original trilogy) or had a girlfriend they didn’t approve of or something?
Wait what if he has a baby. That happened to my cousin, although her super religious parents still accepted her and the kid (I was too young at the time to know much more of the story, so that might not have been right away). Like holy shit what if Joyce has a nephew or niece (practically a sister!) that she never knew about.
This reminds me of my speculating on if Becky really has no living relatives besides Toedad, or if they are out there but have never had contact with her because religion.
“My brother Joshua took me out trick-or-treating, until that one year when we went out on the lake a couple hours after midnight and I fell out of the boat. I’m not sure what happened after that.”
Sorry to the five-ish people who’ll get that reference. It’s the only thing that came to mind.
That witch is super cute, but why is Joyce wearing gloves? Is she just germophobic, or is she afraid of touching anything that Mary has handled (as she rightly should)?
More like why isn’t Joyce wearing gloves? She was last time we saw her hands. I guess they came off with the jacket.
Also, Joyce helping Sarah put decorations on the door isn’t really going to sell the “I’m doing this to get a rise out of Joyce” angle if anyone walks by.
I am glad Joyce is hitting revelation time. I hope this will get her talking to Jocelyn or Jordan, since John is definitely not going to happen, and even with Hank making some breakthroughs, I dunno how much help he’d be with this.
As for how much help, I’d go with… On a scale of 1-10, let’s put Jocelyne at a 8 or 9, Hank at a 6 or 7, and everyone else at negative numbers. I can do that because really, there’s nothing Carol and John can do that wouldn’t qualify as harm.
I honestly don’t know enough about Jordan to make a guess at where he’d fit, but I’d put him at… more than a five, tentatively? We don’t even know why Jordan’s estranged!
I don’t think its always a good idea to judge people by who there enemies are, at least not unless you can know who all their enemies are and why.
At least that’s the impression I’m getting watching Star vs the Forces of Evil.
Turns out evil person A can hate other evil person B for stupid reasons, or good reasons.
… you girls realize that the whole “to get a rise out of Joyce” excuse doesn’t work if Joyce is helping… and discussing how she thinks her family had no issue with it, right?
I’ll assume Sarah decided not to give a f- anymore XD
I’m guessing that Sarah had some sort of revelation after seeing that (a) Joyce is aware of how she comes across, ((b) gives zero fudge, (c) is so unaffected by what others may think of her that she’s quite happy to play up to their perceptions of her if it means a friend can enjoy something she likes, and (d) is completely accepting of Sarah and her prickles (big sister!), and ‘fessed up and got her pumpkins back.
Many years ago there was a church I drove by regularly. Every October their sign talked about their upcoming “Noah’s Ark Party.” Which without further research I assumed was an attempted to sanitize Halloween letting kids dress up as animals, patriarchs, maybe sinners who were gonna drown deservedly, etc.
So Joyce only celebrates Halloween because the only other freethinker in her family took her out those nights. Also, it seems they did celebrated with the eldest brothers, but something happened considering how Jordan is described. Is Jordan gay, or an atheist?
They probably weren’t so fundamentalist with the older ones because they had only just started homeschooling. Once you start buying fundamentalist homeschool materials you just funnel deeper and deeper.
John went to public school and turned out okay – by their standards. Jordan probably did too and didn’t, which is probably why the younger two weren’t. Or Jocelyne was pulled out early. Not sure of the actual timeline.
But yeah, I expect they’ve sunk deeper and deeper as time went on.
Well, specifically, Carol eventually had a problem with Halloween and she seems to be one of those personalities who thinks that if she has a problem with something, she needs to force everyone to have a problem with it. I’ve got a feeling that all of the past and current problems the Brown family have seems to somehow be rooted in her need to wave her righteous around for public show.
This is the first insight we have had into what Hank referred to as the ‘Joshua issue’. I wonder if he took Joyce out trick-or-treating just to show his mother the finger?
Jocelyn (Joshua to Joyce, for now) is the one they get along with the best, remember? I think the son they consider an “issue” is Jordan. Jocelyn probably loved Halloween and insisted to her mom that Joyce be allowed to enjoy something that John and her turned out fine despite celebrating.
It’s not clear. It’s specifically photos of John and Jordan she was showing their mom, not of herself.
I wonder if they stopped before taking her and it was only when she was old enough to make the argument for taking Joyce that they relented.
I’m not sure how much clearer it could be than specifically saying ‘photos of John and Jordan’… I suppose ‘John and Jordan, but not him [sic]’ would be clearer, but it would also be extremely unusual phrasing.
Well, the thing about that type of religious structure is that it’s not “I have a problem with this, thus everyone must have a problem with this.”
It’s “God has a problem with this and God will punish this any day now when he ends the world damning everyone not on his short list to Hell, so the only way I can save the literal immortal souls of everyone around me is to get them to hate this thing I… I mean God hates no matter what nasty tricks are used to get there.”
It’s the perfect worldview to turn projection of fears and hatreds into do or die battles for the fates of your loved ones with no possibility for compromise, compassion, or even listening (because the devil will use anyone, even your own children to steal all your souls).
To be fair to Hank, atheism causes genocide is a very common belief in fundamentalist circles – coupled with no true Scotsman, it is used to retroactively absolve the church of all evil.
No True Christian would commit mass murder so Hitler must have been an atheist goes the reasoning.
Yeah, it’s easy to pin all the blame on Carol, but I think Hank’s a more interesting character if he’s actually trying to dig himself out of that mindset, rather than just having gone along with it passively.
TBH, rebelling against your parents by taking your little sister trick-or-treating is like the coolest way to rebel. You piss off your parents and let your sister enjoy a tradition, two birds with one stone.
Another cool way to rebel is to become an outstanding person and being open about everything they hated, and in that way prove you don’t need to follow their doctrine to be happy and successful.
I have a family member who, after suffering a stroke, makes up stories about the past. Then, with a combination of talking to his long divorced wife, his grown-up siblings, and looking at his military service records, apparently he’s been making up stories (aka lying) his whole life, prior to having stroke-induced dementia.
I didn’t realize how racist my mom and aunt (her sister) were until I was 20ish and moving to a town with a large Indian population (the town had one of the oldest Sikh temples in Canada).
The same aunt also is apparently really scared of witchcraft and demons? Which is weird, since she’s not particularly religious or anything. She’s into like, whitewashed chakras and so on, but was going on about how this acquaintance of hers was ‘a Wicca’ and had used a love spell to steal her (my aunt’s) friend’s husband, and also about how a person she knew in college who took LSD to try and have a spiritual experience and instead was possessed by demons (she does not believe this is what happens to everyone who trips, so I don’t know why she believes this so strongly about him). After telling these things to me she asked me very sincerely if I was doing anything with demons or Ouija boards. I was probably 22-24 for this one.
I am seeing a lot of people mention Joyce’s brother Jordan in regards to a possible falling out with the family or something, but I for the life of me can’t remember anything about this character ever being mentioned, can someone fill me in please? Any links to when he is mentioned?
Don’t even trip, dawg! Jordan’s only been in one-sentence mentions all over the comic, with heavy implications his family doesn’t like him. Joyce calls him “Too Jordan…” early in the comic, Hank refers to a “Jordan situation” later…
I feel like he’s not necessarily “thoroughly disowned” as much as there’s conflict between him and his family and he’s not willing to put up with it. Like, I could see his parents having the approach of, “We will love you even though you are Wrong. Also, we will take every opportunity to remind you that you are Wrong. Because we love you.” And he was like, “Nah, fuck that.”
And so now there’s just a lot of distance between him and the family.
Maybe the disowning worked in the other direction? Like, what if Jordan doesn’t talk to the family because they left the church where dancing was a sin?
Your guess has been officially notarised. You have been granted authorisation for permission to use exactly one ‘is that your phone ringing?/because i £$”@ing called it’ style joke should your guess prove accurate.
Use of more than one of these style of jokes is prohibited and may incur a penalty.
All we know is it’s something big enough they no longer speak but not something they consider totally irredeemable (since Hank says he’s ‘still a good kid’).
I still don’t get what beef Christians would have with a mass exorcism ritual, especially considering that every argument used against Halloween could be equally applied to both Easter and Christmas.
I wasn’t allowed to go Trick or treating or have anything to do with Halloween. Always went to church Halloween functions instead. In school I HAD to dress up as it was actually a grade! Seriously, the teachers threatened the students that if they didn’t dress up they’d get a failing grade…*face palms* My dad tho actually started decorating his house for halloween after my parents divorced. Like WTF? I only like that time of year cuz of the candy available… don’t celebrate halloween to this day by choice. I prefer Dia De Muerta as it’s a celebration of family and remembering ancestors.
It would get kind of awkward, since the strip itself continues to use “Joshua” and there’s always someone who doesn’t remember.
Explaining would get weird with the filter. “No, Jocelyne is really Jocelyne.” “Don’t call her Jocelyne.”
I too was raised fundamentalist and my mother too didn’t have a problem with Halloween at first but then eventually did and I was thereafter forbidden from trick-or-treating and, especially, haunted houses. Though she still spent hundreds of dollars on candy to pass out to other people’s trick-or-treating kids.
The more I read through these different universe’s comics, the more I am reassured that as jacked up as my childhood was (secular music was also forbidden etc), I wasn’t alone.
My dad insisted we have candy for other peoples kids after we weren’t allowed to do it anymore.
We raised my dress up box, dressed in the laundry room, and ran out the back door to the front and said trick or treat. They rolled their eyes and gave us candy.
Then we each got an entirely different costume each and did it again and they made us stop. Oh well.
Joyce thought her parents had no problem with Halloween.
Thinking back on it, she remembered when Jocelyn (who Joyce still knows as Jordan) would show her, and her parents, pictures of her oldest brothers trick-or-treating.
Joyce didn’t understand it at the time, but her parents (almost certainly her mother) had been sinking into the “HALLOWEEN IS EVIL” sort of fundie mindset, and Jocelyn had been bringing out the old pictures to pressure Joyce’s parents into letting Joyce have the holiday.
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dat Sarah
worth THREE pretzels!
or at LEAST a Twix (from trick-or-treating)
A Twix and a Reeses Cup, at least.
That witch is METAL!
Plus it has the One Cute Fang on it.
Why is it one fang is always so much cuter than two?
It’s like a unicorn of the mouth.
(Excellent question, really.)
Oh cute things are somehow baby things, so let’s figure this out!
New teeth are so big in their mouth, they have crooked smiles, and they aren’t being bared at you if you only see one. My guess
Or maybe slightly older juvenilia, when the baby teeth are lost?
Another possibility is that it captures a wry, cheeky smile where you only see teeth in one half of the mouth? (hard to pull off in real life)
“Neotenic”
Neotenous
You nailed it. Neotny: if babies weren’t cute, they wouldn’t make it past the age of five. They charm you while they rob you of your sleep.
I was thinking babies have uneven/single teeth while their first set is growing in to begin with. Thus why babies are often depicted with a single front tooth in cartoons.
I always just thought it was Anime rule of cute number 12.
Looks like art school hasn’t beaten the anime style out of Mary just yet.
Poor Jocelyne who didn’t have an awesome older sister to take her trick and treating 🙁
Yeah, she did. She just didn’t know it at the time.
Jocelyne didn’t have an older sister, Joyce did.
Whoops. My bad. Who names their kids with the same letter anyway?
Might not be that rare? I know a family like that – also a family of J names, coincidentally, and that includes both parents.
I had a good friend like that as well, both parents, three kids and three dogs all had names starting with J.
I know a family with kids called Michael and Michaela. Just WHY, i do not know.
Don’t get me started…
Dagonz, I know a family where the mom and dad are Jan and Jim, and the kids are John, Joyce, and Jeff.
The Family Theme Naming trope would like a word – https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FamilyThemeNaming
Lots of people in IN/MI, unfortunately. I know a James and Janice with kids named Joshua, Jeremiah, Joel, and John.
I had a friend in high school, who I’d call J. A., except that could be him, one of several siblings, or either of his parents.
My dad and oldest brother are named William but go by “Bill” and “Buzz” respectively. Everyone else in my immediate family has a name starting with B.
My parents got to me (3rd of 5), gave me a B name, and then said “Fuck it, any more and they get a B name, too.”
Friends of the family are all named Chris: Mom, Dad, Brother, and Sister, ALL Chris 😬
The Duggars.
It’s a bad precedent to start, theme naming, because eventually you run out of names with that theme and have to resort to things like “Jinger” and “Joy-Anna”.
Or stop having kids.
It’s not a problem if you only have a reasonable number.
My grandparents 🙄
Mom kept it going with me but managed to break it with my little brother tho
Wait was Jordan also trans? Omg I hope Jocelyn really did have a supportive older sister now
*is
Very unlikely, IMO, for two reasons… 1) In the other universe, Joss and Joyce are the only ladies among their siblings. 2) It seems that Joyce actually knows what’s up with Jordan, so it’s virtually impossible that Joss doesn’t, so you’d think at the very least, it would have gotten obliquely mentioned that she’s staying in the closet because she saw the result of her big sister coming out…
I thought Joyce had been unclear about Jordan, with the implication she’d been young when contact was cut off and they’d kept the details from her?
It’s hard to track down the specific mentions though, since Jordan isn’t tagged when mentioned and I’ve got no idea who she might have been talking to about it.
Jocelyne would be far more likely to know, I agree.
She talks about it when they’re at Galasso’s with Jacob and Raidah, if anyone wants to dig it up.
Thanks for the reminder.I’m not really sure what Jordan does and “Mom and Dad said I’d find out when I’m older”.
Apparently I screwed up the link attempt.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/laws/
“I’m not really sure what Jordan does” was supposed to be quoted and the link, which is probably what messed up.
So how autobiographical is this strip, I wonder.
is what I ask myself after every strip
Near as I can tell, one of the biggest clues when it comes to fundie family background is when half the comments are talking about him strawmanning Christians. Those are autobiographical.
That is why one of the Many Names of Willis is, “The Unbelieved Autobiographer.”
Per Willis, one of the important differences between him and Joyce is that Joyce is the youngest. If I’m remembering correctly (no guarantees) Willis is the oldest.
I am getting more and more interested in Jordan.
Transvestite? Or perhaps (then) Joshua picked costumes that made (then) him feel like Jocelyne?
Generally, whe. you’re speaking about trans folks pretransition or pre-them-being-out, you should use their current name and pronouns.
Sorry, wasn’t sure.
Oh, it’s totally chill! I didn’t used to know either. It’s the better policy cuz you won’t accidentally out them, or trigger feelings of dysphoria for them, and it help shows that you do recognize their true gender. Haha, at least I’m pretty sure that’s the rationale.
Unless you’re dealing with someone who’s partially out, where it’s safer to use the deadname/pronouns unless you’re sure they’re out to everyone who might pick up on it.
Especially in fictional cases, it’s also sometimes extremely awkward talking around other character’s perceptions.
it varies, some are militant than others about it. If you didn’t mean any ill intent then you don’t have to apologize.
And it is one of the days that transgender people can get away with dressing as their true selves, but I suspect there was a bit of fury about that with Joshua/Jocelyn’s parents…
I mean, ya, you still have to apologize regardless of intent. If I knock you down the stairs, it hurts, and I should apologize, even if I didn’t mean to.
You’re comparing uncertainty in how to address you to an act known to cause injury?
Um yes? Good lord, an apology for accidentally hurting someone, whether physically or by causing offense, costs nothing. It’s the basic kind of interaction that makes our society function. Jesus H. Christ.
Mate, it’s not complicated, if you use the wrong name or pronouns and it makes someone feel bad, you should apologize. Literally all you have to do is say the word “sorry.” It’s not a huge imposition, it takes a fraction of a second to do and lets the person know you didn’t do it on purpose and will try not to do it again. That’s very basic social interaction.
It may just be my Canadian upbringing, but in fact ‘I didn’t mean to do something hurtful’ is, IME, far more likely to bring an apology than a situation with actual malice – an apology is a sign of remorse, and if you hurt somebody without meaning it, you’re more likely to be remorseful in a time period where your apology will be useful than if you really intended harm.
Seriously, Canadians apologize like we breathe. There’s sympathy sorry’s where you say sorry because you recognize something sucks even though you had nothing to do with it, there’s ‘sorry, my bad’s when you actually did something wrong….and then there are sorry’s you give out not because you actually did something wrong but because you could considerably conceive you are inconveniencing or annoying someone like when you both start to walk in ways you would run in to someone but you both realize it and stop before you actually run into someone.
One time my Canadian friend bumped into a mannequin and apologized to it. Twice. With the second time being after she had realized it was a mannequin.
Yup. Sounds right.
I live in the SF area and we do this too. I think it might be a smiley culture thing?
I’m pretty sure I’ve apologized to tables before. 🙂
“Transvestite” is also often considered an outdated and sometimes offensive term, though I have known people who use it for themselves. I’m not sure if you meant transgender, which is different, or someone who crossdresses.
I am already older Willis please tell me what Jordan does!!!
*plays “Season of the Witch” on the hacked Muzak*
Whoa! This seems pretty aggressive for Jocelyne? I had her pegged as more of a keeping-her-head-down kinda Brown daughter… Maybe she became more cowed when she got older for some reason (until now, inspired by Joyce’s strong spirit back to mischief)?
Possibly she became more cowed when she worked some things out about herself, and realized the risks? Or alternately, this was the one time of the year she could dress as herself. The alt-text could refer to her, after all.
Or alternatively she became more cowed when she saw what happened when Jordan toed the line.
When Jordan didn’t toe the line?
*googles*
…Wow. I got that one wrong! But yes. Jordan getting estranged would be, probably, when Jocelyne realized “Oh God, there’s consequences now” and meeting with John would be when she realized “This isn’t the family I grew up with anymore. They would torture me.”
(Well, not personally torture her, probably? But send her to a place that does torture her, on account of not seeing much wrong if Becky went there…)
Interesting thought that what happened to Jordan may have been when she realized the consequences would be serious – especially if Jordan’s offenses wouldn’t be seen to be as severe as hers.
By the meeting with John we saw on the other hand, I think she knew damn well it was the family she grew up with. There was no revelation there. She’s been walking that fine line for a long time.
Knowing and seeing firsthand evidence are different things…
But yeah, you’re right. You’re definitely right that she knew for awhile.
She navigates things, and has always been good at it.
If she had openly defied her parents, they would have come down on her like a ton of bricks.
Instead, she figured out a way to do the right thing by her little sister while also preemptively not giving her parents a reason to stop her from doing that.
It makes sense. Often Halloween becomes a super important thing for trans people because it’s the only night of the year when you’re closeted (especially to yourself) where you have an excuse to dress closer to how you’d like than you would otherwise or at least escape your own dysphoria in a persona and a costume for a bit.
So for Jocelyne even if she would not have been allowed any feminine costumes, it might have represented a type of wish she wanted to keep experiencing while lacking the words for it. That alone is enough to make the quiet one unusually vocal.
Now, the darker flipside of this might be the family recognizing she liked it a “little too much” and being more amenable to anti-Halloween messaging due to worrying about Jocelyne “straying from godly messages”.
Cerberus, I was wondering about that darker flipside, too, though I wonder if that were the case, would the family have come down harder on not allowing her to go trick-or-treating with Joyce? I’m hoping the next few days of comic give us some more insights. 🙂
Dammit, this explains both my absolute love of Halloween as well as my family’s insistence for years that they buy me only the girliest pink princesses of costumes. I was not expecting personal revelations today.
Cerberus is good for those. Always be warned before reading one of her comments!
(Love ya, Cerberus, and glad to see you’re around here again. I couldn’t begin to estimate how much I’ve learned from you over the years.)
The only problem with Halloween is that it means that October is ending.
What’s so great about October anyway?
MAH BIRTHDAY.
I stand corrected. October is awesome.
Oh my god Witch Sarah has a fang it’s amazing.
Yeah, that witch Sarah art is pretty damn awesome. Mary is a huge jerk but she’s really good at drawing.
Art classes still haven’t beaten the anime out of her drawing hand yet.
I do notice that Witch Sarah appears to be burning in hell, as one would expect to see from Mary, but at least WS seems okay with the experience.
Reminds me of the tickling charm story from Harry Potter. Any time a witch let themselves be caught in pre-industrial times, they hit the flames with this charm so instead of horrible burning it just… Tickled them.
Sarah gets to tell herself she’s controlling the fire, Mary gets to tell herself that she’s burning in hell. Everyone wins.
That was part of the pretzel-based commission.
A problem in the family Joyce didn’t pick up on????
More seriously, the only problem my family had with Halloween is that after a certain age I realllllly wanted to go as a girl occasionally….
Joshua was the best brother. . . .do you think that she will ever come out to Joyce in the comic? I’d LIKE to think that Joyce would take it in stride and accept her instantly. Certainly seems like she was her favorite brother so it shouldn’t be *that* hard for Joyce to accept her right?
Joyce has very stereotypical views of gender roles (she believed gay dudes played with Barbies for a while while she was dating Ethan). I think she will eventually come around, but she might not be immediately accepting, since she is very entrenched in traditional roles that can come out in a bad way. It took Becky being gay for her to finally reconsider her views on homosexuality, but transgender is a different ball park.
It’s my hope that the combination of Joyce becoming more open minded, and the fact that this will mean she has a big sister, will combine to make her accept it.
But the thing about Joyce is that she basically always does the right thing eventually, she just sometimes needs a running start to make it over the brainwashing hurdle. So I know she will accept Jocelyne for who she is. I just hope it happens fast enough that Jocelyne doesn’t have to experience any heartbreak.
I think there’s a possibility that someone will have to talk sense into her about it. Because a lot of people will do the whole, “I accept that Joshua wants to crossdress, but I won’t accept that he is a woman. I love him just the same.” (Something that people don’t realize is poisonous because they are clouded by their own bigotry)
And the only people who can talk sense into her that she will really listen to are Dorothy, Becky, and Joe (maybe Jacob, but he doesn’t know her that well). Carla is also a possibility because she’s also trans, and she’s blunt and gives no fucks.
Second guess is she will come to that realization herself after observing either Carol being a satchel of dicks about her daughter or Mary being a satchel of dicks about Carla.
I think even Carla would tread lightly here, if only to not inadvertently push Joyce further from your first paragraph into Mary territory. (Joyce isn’t that bigoted by a long shot, but does Carla know that?)
Agreed, though I’m not sure it’ll be as simple as having someone talk sense into her.
Her reaction to Jocelyne will awkward, confused, loving, messed up and painful as hell, though she’ll come around and be happy to have a big sister in the end.
Unless as you suggest it happens in front of their parents and Carol (and maybe even Hank) behave as we expect, in which case the whole process will be compressed and it’ll be pure righteous fury from about 2 beats in.
I’m telling you, Thanksgiving will be FUN.
While Joyce is in no way prepared for this due to, to her knowledge, having had no interactions with trans people whatsoever and presumably knowing nothing about the topic, I think her current state of mind could make her more accepting.
She’s currently in “question everything” mode. She’s not all that knowledgeable, but she now understands that there’s a lot that she doesn’t know, and that a lot of what she thought she knew was false. So while she’s likely going to have a negative initial reaction, I thinks she’s at a point where she might be able to keep that negative reaction to herself and immediately begin questioning it.
I think it’s almost a certainty that eventually Jocelyne will talk to Joyce about being Jocelyne. If DoA is about anything, it’s about Joyce’s grown as a person, and learning about Jocelyne is going to be huge for Joyce.
Timing is another matter. Really, the best time for this to happen is at some family gathering, and if it doesn’t happen around in-universe Thanksgiving, it might not happen until Christmas. Those are both years away IRL.
But who knows?, Willis might already have drawn the relevant strips, and they might already be sitting in the buffer. Wise are the ways of the Willis.
Best and worst time.
Jocelyne won’t want to do it at a family gathering, even if she wants to out herself to Joyce, because that drastically increases the chances of it spilling over onto the rest of the family.
OTOH, most potential for drama. 🙂
I suspect this is an issue Joyce is going to need time and several steps to accept. First she’ll need to believe it’s an actual thing. Then she’ll need to learn it’s not a thing that can be ‘fixed’. Then she’ll learn it’s not something that even needs to be ‘fixed’.
I figure Carla will be the soft sell, someone she already thinks of in their preferred identity, and then her sister will be the harder sell as that will involve rethinking everything she thinks she knows about them.
I’m hoping she’ll come to those second two points, especially the last one, fairly fast, since that was an amount of her initial reaction to Becky and she figured out otherwise pretty immediately, and now has that experience as well.
Liking Joshua means expanding your idea of what women are about.
I’m not sure I understand this page.
Jocelyne took Joyce trick or treating because their parents didn’t like Halloween and she thought it was important for Joyce to be a regular kid. Joyce thought that since she went trick or treating, her family had no issues with Halloween.
Originally, Hank and Carol didn’t have a problem with Halloween, because they took John and Jordan trick-or-treating. Then something happened with Jordan that altered their perception of the holiday, and Jocelyne (then Joshua) had to take Joyce as their parents didn’t approve.
…Shit, Jordan became a pagan, didn’t he. It just hit me like a ton of bricks.
Even worse, Bunny, even worse.
He started playing D&D.
It’s surprising some enterprising conservative Christian didn’t come up with an acceptable alternative to D&D. Saints and Saints, where you roleplay clerics, who try to convert people, avoid being martyred, or be martyred, depending on the game master etc.
Such games have been written at least twice, but none have ever caught on.
I’m sure it’s a complete mystery as to why this would be.
I assume that people who are upset about this sort of thing are generally the type who will not be satisfied no matter how much you do.
And if you aren’t that uptight, any decently written RPG can be played with moral codes enforced by the GM.
I’m thinking more in the terms of “fundie Christians trying to make a fundie Christian version of something popular will always botch it and make a far inferior product”.
It’s a fundamental rule, you might say.
The funny thing was that the panic was so focused on D&D, it often didn’t spill over to other RPGs, as long as they weren’t called D&D, because the family and the preachers didn’t have any clue.
Which has led to stories of parents banning D&D but being fine with their kids playing Call of Cthulhu or something.
And it’s not really the “moral code” or anything like that they’re concerned about. It’s the pretending to use magic and spells. It’s the gateway to the occult. It’s the same people trying to get Harry Potter banned from libraries in a later generation.
They don’t read them. They don’t look closely enough to see any moral code. It’s “popular and magic, must be Satan!”
Narnia’s only allowed by some groups because it’s got Aslan as Jesus’ fursona.
Remember the campaign in Age of Empires where you start off with a lone priest, and you have to wololo your way to victory by converting enemy units? Imagine if that was the whole game.
Not sure. Aren’t the hard core fundies against using your imagination?
And somewhere I think I saw how to modify In Nomine to conform with evangelical theology.
Pretty sure it was in the In Nomine GM’s guide.
No, this was a more detailed one that covered things like that contrary to IN canon, souls are indestructible, and the primacy of Jesus (who is also God) in everything. Canonically in IN no Servitor is sure exactly who or what Jesus was or is, and the Superiors aren’t telling. And souls can be destroyed, though it is rare and difficult.
There was a really interesting article about d&d posted on a religious site about a month ago. It was talking about how d&d should be embraced by the church, and I found it both sweet and a little frustrating. Considering the amoint of stigma the church placed on d&d in the 80’s, it feels weird especially when people in the comments basically stated they thought it would be a good conversion tool. Still not sure how I felt about it.
Near as I can tell the Christian community, even during the “Satanic Panic,” was kind of split on D&D. Lot of parents watching their kids play, realizing it’s basically harmless and gets their geeky kid some friends, and that was that. I always thought it was more sound and fury than anything else, although I was a little little kid getting into the game at the very tail end of it so maybe I just didn’t see anything around where I lived.
My Darling Bride and I joke about developing a couple of those themed Vacation Bible School programs. So far we’ve got ‘Deadly Sins – To Avoid, You Must Understand’, ‘Martyrs and Terminators’, and ‘Plagues of Egypt Week’ (boys excused on the last afternoon (at leader’s discretion)).
Ten seconds of googling later…
[Stock Crowd Gasp Effect #3]
Do you suppose so? I remember Hank saying that although they didn’t always see eye to eye, but he’s still a good kid. And…I don’t know, it’s hard for me to imagine him describing a non-Christian that way, right after insisting Dorothy could not possibly be a good person.
Or Jocelyne used Halloween to dress as herself, but the parents were not happy about the feminine attire.
I think it relates to Jocelyne, because John and Jordan wouldn’t
likely do something that would offend the parents before age 12. Jocelyne dressing as a woman, though. That would give them a problem with Halloween.
Yeah, the “I wanna be a witch!” Roseanne reference makes me think it started with Jocelyn.
I think it’s a Futurama reference (because of the heels clicking) but that may in turn be a Roseanne reference.
I’m surprised their church didn’t do the “trunk-or-treat” in the church parking lot so everybody could get their sugar on in a morally acceptable and controlled fashion. Or is that just a Southern Thing (TM)?
I’ve seen that done in the northeast as well, but more just as a safer community building thing for towns where the traditional wander the neighborhood isn’t really practical.
Still came with all the usual costumes and decorations though.
Well, Joyce did mention that they changed churches a lot. Maybe at that time they were involved with a church that was against celebrating Halloween?
Either Jocelyn showing the parents old trick or treating photos made them realize the took Jordan trick or treating and he turned out bad, making them have a problem with Halloween, or they had a problem with Halloween after Jordan turned out bad and Jocelyn would insist on taking Joyce trick or treating still and show them the pictures to make a point about it being an important family tradition.
I suspect it was mostly just the Browns getting more and more fundie as the years went on and the propaganda sank deeper. There may have been a specific trigger with Jordan, though I’m not sure if that fits the timeline.
I am not seeing the clear indication that it was a problem with Jordan that turned them away from Halloween. How do we know it wasn’t a result of Jocelyne’s costume choices being highly inappropriate in the opinion of her parents?
The Browns have avoided talking much about Jordan, so he’s mysterious. Probably some massive plot twist when we find out why he’s estranged, and perhaps this gives Jocelyne and Joyce to be themselves to their family.
Because Jordan is The Problem Child(tm) from the implications we’ve seen. (parents dont talk about him, avoid conversations directed towards him, he’s not around, etc)
That doesn’t mean that he is the Source/Manifestation/Result Of All Things Wrong* With The Brown Family.
* Or Supposedly Wrong
I just assumed that the Browns became more religiously conservative over the years, so their problem with Halloween developed sometime after John and Jordan but before Joyce.
That’s what happened to my family. They got ‘convicted’ everything got stricter and less fun. They even got rid of Toy Story (because of Sid). Eventually I had a semi arranged marriage because dating is evil… Course then I went bad and maybe it inspired them to loosen their grip. But maybe not. I don’t have a relationship with them so I wouldn’t know.
I’m one of the older kids in my family.
Pretty sure he’s not the ‘source’ of what went wrong, but the first casualty of it.
I think the heavy implication is that Jocelyn snuck Joyce out for trick or treating because their parents didn’t approve anymore. It’s not a big jump from there that Jocelyn wanted to wear “not gender appropriate” costumes and that was why this happened, but that’s not heavy.
I don’t think Joyce-until-recently would have been able or willing to conceal trick-or-treating trips from her parents.
I doubt it was snuck, more Jocelyne using the old pictures of them taking John and Jordan to convince them to let her take Joyce.
My milder take is that initially the Browns had no problems with Halloween, then began to have misgivings after hearing negative stuff about it from their fellow churchgoers, to the point where they refused to directly participate, but not so much that they would begrudge little Joyce from participating. It may or may not have anything to do with Jordan or Jocelyne directly.
This seems most likely to me, too.
Ah, shit, those kinds of family realizations are never fun. Sorry, Joyce.
As a fellow Joshua, I approve of Joshua taking his little sister out for trick-or-treating.
Damn, sorry! I honestly was thinking about Jordan, not Jocelyne. My brain is not good right now.
But Jocelyne is good big sister.
As in, I forgot that Jocelyne’s dead name (or zombie name) was Joshua.
“Jane Smith nee’ Jones” is used for maiden/married names. Is there an analogous convention for zombie or all dead names?
No, because Jocelyne likely wants nothing to do with “Joshua” when she is out. It’s called a dead name because that’s what it is. Dead.
If there was, it would something like:
“Jocelyne REEEEEEEEE Joshua.”
(The implication that you’ll be REEE’d if you say the second one.)
Or….. Jocelyne yeet Joshua?
(Jk I wouldn’t use that for myself either but it made me laugh when it crossed my mind)
I misread that as “Jocelyne meet Joshua”, and I imagined her travelling back in time and meeting her younger self from before she chose the name.
“…So I’m still presenting as a guy in the future?”
“Afraid so.”
“Shit. Am I out to anyone?”
“I use our real name on the website, but that’s about it.”
DKW does the comic adaptation of Heinlein’s “All You Zombies-“?
“The Jocelyn formerly known as ‘Joshua'” ?
“The Motherfucking Goddess Carla formerly known as fuck you, that’s none of your business.”
It’s on her business card.
So I’m assuming Joyce’s parents stopped taking their kids trick-or-treating after Jordan, which makes me really want to know what’s up with him.
He’s the chief warlock of some neopagan/Wiccan group.
I’ve guessed before that Jordan’s black-sheep-ness is about him having turned his back on the church — but yeah, it’s beginning to look like there may have been a pagan element to it, and that Halloween got tarred with the same brush, so to speak.
What if he’s just Catholic? (I know that’s not “just” to Joyce’s family)
Actually, what if he’s one of the super normal things Joyce wasn’t allowed? Someone said DND already, so otherwise, if he started watching anime and got kicked out because it teaches ‘eastern religion’ or collected star wars memorabilia (for the original trilogy) or had a girlfriend they didn’t approve of or something?
Wait what if he has a baby. That happened to my cousin, although her super religious parents still accepted her and the kid (I was too young at the time to know much more of the story, so that might not have been right away). Like holy shit what if Joyce has a nephew or niece (practically a sister!) that she never knew about.
Maybe he knocked up his girlfriend and wouldn’t marry her. Or did marry her despite her being “not one of our kind” in some way.
This reminds me of my speculating on if Becky really has no living relatives besides Toedad, or if they are out there but have never had contact with her because religion.
I adore the look of love and happy reminiscence in panel 3.
And then the shocked realization in panel 5.
Just good art all around.
“My brother Joshua took me out trick-or-treating, until that one year when we went out on the lake a couple hours after midnight and I fell out of the boat. I’m not sure what happened after that.”
Sorry to the five-ish people who’ll get that reference. It’s the only thing that came to mind.
That witch is super cute, but why is Joyce wearing gloves? Is she just germophobic, or is she afraid of touching anything that Mary has handled (as she rightly should)?
I think her hand is just pasty.
I like your gravatar
Thanks, stranger. Yours is a cat.
Oh…that’s her skin, huh. The lighting is playing tricks on me. This is the black-and-blue / white-and-gold dress all over again, isn’t it.
More like why isn’t Joyce wearing gloves? She was last time we saw her hands. I guess they came off with the jacket.
Also, Joyce helping Sarah put decorations on the door isn’t really going to sell the “I’m doing this to get a rise out of Joyce” angle if anyone walks by.
Your mother had a problem with Joshua.
Which is in some ways a surprise. “Joshua” is the parental favorite precisely because they know so little about her, by her own estimation.
I am glad Joyce is hitting revelation time. I hope this will get her talking to Jocelyn or Jordan, since John is definitely not going to happen, and even with Hank making some breakthroughs, I dunno how much help he’d be with this.
As for how much help, I’d go with… On a scale of 1-10, let’s put Jocelyne at a 8 or 9, Hank at a 6 or 7, and everyone else at negative numbers. I can do that because really, there’s nothing Carol and John can do that wouldn’t qualify as harm.
I honestly don’t know enough about Jordan to make a guess at where he’d fit, but I’d put him at… more than a five, tentatively? We don’t even know why Jordan’s estranged!
If you judge people by who their enemies are, Jordan is probably a good person.
Concur’d. I just don’t know how much more than 5. Probably more than Hank considering that he’s (seemingly) more open.
John: “Mom! Dad! Don’t hug him, he’s concentrated Evil.”
I don’t think its always a good idea to judge people by who there enemies are, at least not unless you can know who all their enemies are and why.
At least that’s the impression I’m getting watching Star vs the Forces of Evil.
Turns out evil person A can hate other evil person B for stupid reasons, or good reasons.
RARE JORDAN SIGHTING
In a few years we might actually *see* Jordan…
… you girls realize that the whole “to get a rise out of Joyce” excuse doesn’t work if Joyce is helping… and discussing how she thinks her family had no issue with it, right?
I’ll assume Sarah decided not to give a f- anymore XD
I’m guessing that Sarah had some sort of revelation after seeing that (a) Joyce is aware of how she comes across, ((b) gives zero fudge, (c) is so unaffected by what others may think of her that she’s quite happy to play up to their perceptions of her if it means a friend can enjoy something she likes, and (d) is completely accepting of Sarah and her prickles (big sister!), and ‘fessed up and got her pumpkins back.
Sometimes knowing you have an excuse to fall back on can give you the courage to do the thing you actually wanted to do.
Not that I’d know anything about that… (uses foot to tuck away all my former bullshit faux-feminist excuses for wearing a skirt as a “boy” in college)
It’s honestly pretty hilarious because Sarah is getting help from two Fundie girls to celebrate a holiday the fundie girls are supposed to hate XD
Many years ago there was a church I drove by regularly. Every October their sign talked about their upcoming “Noah’s Ark Party.” Which without further research I assumed was an attempted to sanitize Halloween letting kids dress up as animals, patriarchs, maybe sinners who were gonna drown deservedly, etc.
Loving the Futurama reference in the ‘hover over the image’ text.
This is so real
No, it’s a cartoon. *hyuk hyuk hyuk*
Ah yes, I appreciate the clarification. *Tips hat to you*
So Joyce only celebrates Halloween because the only other freethinker in her family took her out those nights. Also, it seems they did celebrated with the eldest brothers, but something happened considering how Jordan is described. Is Jordan gay, or an atheist?
Far worse, he eats well done steak and pineapple on pizza.
Why would you eat steak on pizza, no matter how well it’s been prepared? For one thing, that’s just a lot of meat in one bite.
I have seen that, I believe you are expected to use a knife and fork to cut it into bite sized bits.
They probably weren’t so fundamentalist with the older ones because they had only just started homeschooling. Once you start buying fundamentalist homeschool materials you just funnel deeper and deeper.
Like scientology propaganda and pyramid schemes.
John went to public school and turned out okay – by their standards. Jordan probably did too and didn’t, which is probably why the younger two weren’t. Or Jocelyne was pulled out early. Not sure of the actual timeline.
But yeah, I expect they’ve sunk deeper and deeper as time went on.
Well, specifically, Carol eventually had a problem with Halloween and she seems to be one of those personalities who thinks that if she has a problem with something, she needs to force everyone to have a problem with it. I’ve got a feeling that all of the past and current problems the Brown family have seems to somehow be rooted in her need to wave her righteous around for public show.
This is the first insight we have had into what Hank referred to as the ‘Joshua issue’. I wonder if he took Joyce out trick-or-treating just to show his mother the finger?
Jocelyn (Joshua to Joyce, for now) is the one they get along with the best, remember? I think the son they consider an “issue” is Jordan. Jocelyn probably loved Halloween and insisted to her mom that Joyce be allowed to enjoy something that John and her turned out fine despite celebrating.
It’s not clear. It’s specifically photos of John and Jordan she was showing their mom, not of herself.
I wonder if they stopped before taking her and it was only when she was old enough to make the argument for taking Joyce that they relented.
I’m not sure how much clearer it could be than specifically saying ‘photos of John and Jordan’… I suppose ‘John and Jordan, but not him [sic]’ would be clearer, but it would also be extremely unusual phrasing.
Well, the thing about that type of religious structure is that it’s not “I have a problem with this, thus everyone must have a problem with this.”
It’s “God has a problem with this and God will punish this any day now when he ends the world damning everyone not on his short list to Hell, so the only way I can save the literal immortal souls of everyone around me is to get them to hate this thing I… I mean God hates no matter what nasty tricks are used to get there.”
It’s the perfect worldview to turn projection of fears and hatreds into do or die battles for the fates of your loved ones with no possibility for compromise, compassion, or even listening (because the devil will use anyone, even your own children to steal all your souls).
Yeah this.
To the fundamentalist POV, God just so happens to be perfectly synced with their own hangups.
Let’s not be too quick to excuse Hank on this score. He’s made a turnaround on Becky, but he was still quite a bit of a prick before that.
Like comparing a family of non religious jews/catholics of being like Hitler. He actually said it.
To be fair to Hank, atheism causes genocide is a very common belief in fundamentalist circles – coupled with no true Scotsman, it is used to retroactively absolve the church of all evil.
No True Christian would commit mass murder so Hitler must have been an atheist goes the reasoning.
Yeah, it’s easy to pin all the blame on Carol, but I think Hank’s a more interesting character if he’s actually trying to dig himself out of that mindset, rather than just having gone along with it passively.
TBH, rebelling against your parents by taking your little sister trick-or-treating is like the coolest way to rebel. You piss off your parents and let your sister enjoy a tradition, two birds with one stone.
Another cool way to rebel is to become an outstanding person and being open about everything they hated, and in that way prove you don’t need to follow their doctrine to be happy and successful.
yeah thats a wonderful way to flip your parents the bird.
Two dinosaurs with one coprolite.
Any chance the burning Witch could be available in itself so it can become a phone wallpaper ?
Anyone else had this experience? Realizing your family had an issue with something and you were oblivious to it until you were an adult?
Because I *just* had this* happen to me and I still haven’t been able to wrap my head around it. (*Not “hates Halloween” specifically)
I have a family member who, after suffering a stroke, makes up stories about the past. Then, with a combination of talking to his long divorced wife, his grown-up siblings, and looking at his military service records, apparently he’s been making up stories (aka lying) his whole life, prior to having stroke-induced dementia.
I didn’t realize how racist my mom and aunt (her sister) were until I was 20ish and moving to a town with a large Indian population (the town had one of the oldest Sikh temples in Canada).
The same aunt also is apparently really scared of witchcraft and demons? Which is weird, since she’s not particularly religious or anything. She’s into like, whitewashed chakras and so on, but was going on about how this acquaintance of hers was ‘a Wicca’ and had used a love spell to steal her (my aunt’s) friend’s husband, and also about how a person she knew in college who took LSD to try and have a spiritual experience and instead was possessed by demons (she does not believe this is what happens to everyone who trips, so I don’t know why she believes this so strongly about him). After telling these things to me she asked me very sincerely if I was doing anything with demons or Ouija boards. I was probably 22-24 for this one.
I love the witch but having it in such close proximity to Joyce kind of highlights the dangerous line Willis is walking with her saucer eyes.
Jocelyne is a good egg.
I am seeing a lot of people mention Joyce’s brother Jordan in regards to a possible falling out with the family or something, but I for the life of me can’t remember anything about this character ever being mentioned, can someone fill me in please? Any links to when he is mentioned?
Thank you kindly.
Don’t even trip, dawg! Jordan’s only been in one-sentence mentions all over the comic, with heavy implications his family doesn’t like him. Joyce calls him “Too Jordan…” early in the comic, Hank refers to a “Jordan situation” later…
There’s more, but I don’t remember.
I can only think of a few things that would trigger being disowned so thoroughly. Maybe he was openly gay, or atheist, or left-wing Christian.
I feel like he’s not necessarily “thoroughly disowned” as much as there’s conflict between him and his family and he’s not willing to put up with it. Like, I could see his parents having the approach of, “We will love you even though you are Wrong. Also, we will take every opportunity to remind you that you are Wrong. Because we love you.” And he was like, “Nah, fuck that.”
And so now there’s just a lot of distance between him and the family.
Maybe the disowning worked in the other direction? Like, what if Jordan doesn’t talk to the family because they left the church where dancing was a sin?
Or, gasp, converted to Catholicism!
I never mentioned this before but Mary’s chibi!Sarah is probably the cutest thing that has ever appeared in this strip.
You may be right, which is astounding considering the cast already.
It’s cute, sure.
But is it REALLY cuter than Joyce-in-an-oversized-sweater or Dina-falling-asleep-while-dreaming-sweet-dreams-about-Dinosaurs-and-Becky?
I’m not ready to make that call.
How about Joyce and Dorothy and Walky just all falling asleep together from exhaustion after watching cartoons all night??
That’s dangerously close to “It’s so sweet Bagge will melt like the wicked witch of the west-“levels.
Especially if you factor in Joyce’s content little smile as she woke up next to Dorothy (and before she realized she was also waking up next to Walky)
A lot of people guessing that Jordan’s estrangement is due to being atheist or pagan.
Let me be the first to guess that Jordan is…
…CATHOLIC.
Your guess has been officially notarised. You have been granted authorisation for permission to use exactly one ‘is that your phone ringing?/because i £$”@ing called it’ style joke should your guess prove accurate.
Use of more than one of these style of jokes is prohibited and may incur a penalty.
*”Is that your knife ringing?”
(This is an old comment section in-joke, so don’t worry if you don’t get it, but also, I’m never going to let it go.)
I’m still have a long shot bet in on him being some denomination too crazy conservative for the other Browns.
That’s my guess as well.
All we know is it’s something big enough they no longer speak but not something they consider totally irredeemable (since Hank says he’s ‘still a good kid’).
I still don’t get what beef Christians would have with a mass exorcism ritual, especially considering that every argument used against Halloween could be equally applied to both Easter and Christmas.
Religious fundamentalism is a hell of a drug.
For the user to get high, everyone else has to be on it as well.
…Joshua/Jocelyne did a lot more of Joyce’s youth than she get credit for, heh.
In that light, her standing up for Joyce against John at the diner is double awesome.
I wasn’t allowed to go Trick or treating or have anything to do with Halloween. Always went to church Halloween functions instead. In school I HAD to dress up as it was actually a grade! Seriously, the teachers threatened the students that if they didn’t dress up they’d get a failing grade…*face palms* My dad tho actually started decorating his house for halloween after my parents divorced. Like WTF? I only like that time of year cuz of the candy available… don’t celebrate halloween to this day by choice. I prefer Dia De Muerta as it’s a celebration of family and remembering ancestors.
I’m mostly left wondering if we couldn’t add “Joshua” -> “Jocelyne” to the comments word change filter.
It would get kind of awkward, since the strip itself continues to use “Joshua” and there’s always someone who doesn’t remember.
Explaining would get weird with the filter. “No, Jocelyne is really Jocelyne.” “Don’t call her Jocelyne.”
It’d be especially confusing because Joss isn’t really out to Anyone in universe aside from Ethan.
There are a few commenters named Joshua who’d have their names changed on them.
My legal name is But for me it was Tuesday (BfmiwT), and you don’t see me complaining.
Aw, boo, that filter is gone. 😛
After the filter not happening this time, I did a search to make sure I had the phrase right, and now that the filter’s gone, all the past filtered comments have been restored. So you see comments like this: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/beef/#comment-1146071
From what I can see, it was unblocked during the day on February 10, 2018.
I stand by my ‘Aw, boo.’ 😛
How about one to add the terminal “e” that keeps going missing?
I too was raised fundamentalist and my mother too didn’t have a problem with Halloween at first but then eventually did and I was thereafter forbidden from trick-or-treating and, especially, haunted houses. Though she still spent hundreds of dollars on candy to pass out to other people’s trick-or-treating kids.
The more I read through these different universe’s comics, the more I am reassured that as jacked up as my childhood was (secular music was also forbidden etc), I wasn’t alone.
My dad insisted we have candy for other peoples kids after we weren’t allowed to do it anymore.
We raised my dress up box, dressed in the laundry room, and ran out the back door to the front and said trick or treat. They rolled their eyes and gave us candy.
Then we each got an entirely different costume each and did it again and they made us stop. Oh well.
I don’t get it. Could someone explain?
Joyce thought her parents had no problem with Halloween.
Thinking back on it, she remembered when Jocelyn (who Joyce still knows as Jordan) would show her, and her parents, pictures of her oldest brothers trick-or-treating.
Joyce didn’t understand it at the time, but her parents (almost certainly her mother) had been sinking into the “HALLOWEEN IS EVIL” sort of fundie mindset, and Jocelyn had been bringing out the old pictures to pressure Joyce’s parents into letting Joyce have the holiday.
She knows Joss as Joshua, not Jordan.
We really need to meet Jordan, so people can remember he’s the estranged brother, not Joss…
there are a lot of J-names
I too hope that we will get a better view of Mary’s artwork. It would be refreshing to have something -good- about Mary.
And YAY! More pumpkins on the door!