I think he’s just tired of an overly complicated vinegar flavored meal he’s been working on for… how long have he and Raidah been together? Something tells me he wants something light fluffy and sweet instead. Y’know, not too complicated.
Ah well, he should make up his mind about what he wants to eat and where he wants to eat it before he ends up mixing up his meals and getting indigestion.
I know you’re talking about relationships but as a cook, if your meal doesn’t taste proper you do it OVER AND OVER UNTIL IT IS RIGHT OR ALL YOUR DISHES ARE BROKEN IN RAGE
As a poor person, you eat that first meal, no matter how messed up it is, and you’re grateful just to have something to eat at all. And then you think about people throwing away perfectly good food because it’s “not proper”, and your eye does.. a thing.
Of course, the notion that the alternate menu item in this case is ‘not too complicated’ is an interesting one. I mean, Joyce is an absolute seven-layer dip.
The first thing that popped into my head when i read “light fluffy and sweet” was the lyrics from the bloodhound gang song and somehow, it still fit with what i think Jacob was thinking in a way.
I think the problem here is that Jacob has spent so much time trying to fill his brothers shoes do to the high expectations people have for him that he seems a bit depressed over things being all work and no play.
Raidah passive aggressively mocks Joyce for being childish and care free but I think Jacob’s see’s that and wishes he could have a bit that free spirited morale in his life. It’s probably why he likes hanging out with Joyce.
Yeah, that’s why I don’t get some of the comments about “having morals” about breaking these two up. Raidah’s well on her way to getting the job done on her own.
C’mon, Doctor. Don’t pull another End of Time Part 2 and pair off the two (of four who I can remember) black people on the cast because you think it’s better if you get to snog the blonde teenagers.
RTD had some weird ideas about tying up loose ends, didn’t he? Have two characters who barely ever interacted get married offscreen, visit the descendant of someone he cared about, not the person themselves, and help Captain Jack get laid (as if he’s ever had difficulty with that).
Moffat’s run may have been spotty in parts, but at least he knew how to say goodbye; a short and sweet scene where the Old Doctor addresses the New Doctor, which doubles as the Old Actor speaking to the New Actor and the Old Writer giving notes to the New Writer.
Um, I’m pretty sure that Joyce was a text-book Yandere back in Roomies (less so in It’s Walky – the memory wipe helped). No matter what the recent video game might suggest, most Yandere don’t actually hurt anyone physically.
I believe Delicious Taffy is talking about Yandere Simulator, a game stuck in development hell (and yes, it’s exactly what it says on the tin) whose creator, YandereDev, is indeed a scumbag.
There’s a lot going on with him, from what I’ve heard. He’s a control freak, can’t accept criticism, tells his fans to kill themselves on livestreams (and a good portion of them are underage), steals assets for his game, ‘hires’ people to work on his game but never actually pays them, among other things. I’m probably not the best person to ask this to, though, since I only found out about his existence last month and I haven’t been following this since.
To stay on topic with DoA: I support the idea of Jacob getting a clue and ditching both Raidah and Joyce.
And his fault if he ends up as Raidah’s means to an end at his expense because he can’t see a red flag or two….How deep in their relationship were they in before Raidah found out about his brother?
How would it possibly be anyone else’s choice? Joyce can’t actually break them up.
And seems to me that all she’s really doing is putting herself out there. She’s being herself, or a more confident version of herself than we’re used to. Her flirting with Jacob is largely them having chemistry, which is why Sarah thought aiming Joyce at Jacob had a chance in the first place. It’s up to Jacob to sit back and enjoy the show, shut her down, or decide that hey, a two month freshman relationship isn’t a romance for the ages.
Joyce has explicitly stated previously that she wants to break up Jacob and Raidah so that Jacob will be with someone that Joyce approves of, Sarah initially and her now.
I don’t fucking care how good or bad Raidah is. She can be Queen Bongo of the Universe for all it matters, because it’s not about her, it’s about Jacob.
The moment that Joyce started on this road, everything about it became tainted. The moment she went from “I’m just being nice to this guy that’s nice and friendly” to “…I want to be with him and I don’t care what his actual girlfriend has to say about it”, she crossed a line.
It’s little more than Nice Guy Entitlement, and it frankly sickens me.
Well, she was never really “I’m just being nice to this guy that’s nice and friendly”. She went straight from “Jacob would be good for Sarah” to “I’m going to help Sarah break them up so she can get together with him” to “I’m going to break them up for me.” There was never a point without the ulterior motives.
And I don’t really think it’s got much to do with Nice Guy Entitlement. It’s shitty, but it’s a different kind of shitty.
Part of what’s throwing some people, is the distinction between Joyce’s intent and her actual actions. Ignoring intent, we haven’t seen her do anything that bad – she’s just been hanging out with him in a friendly way, right? She hasn’t bad-mouthed Raidah. She hasn’t made an open move on him. She’s just there, being attractive.
And yet we know her intent. We know she wants to get him to fall for her and leave Raidah, which casts everything she does in a different light for me.
I think that’s partly where the difference from the Nice Guy (Nice Gal?) comes in – the stereotypical nice gal would be stewing over how bad the other partner was, but would be trying to position herself to be there for the inevitable breakup or passive-aggressively tearing the other down, rather than trying to win him with her own charms.
I mean that’s kinda exactly what Nice Guys do: passively exist in the object of their affection’s orbit in the guise of a friend without stating their romantic intentions so they can’t be clearly shot down, it just happens she started out acting as like a Nice Guy by proxy for Sarah. Like, Joyce is too generally good natured for the kind of festering resentment you often see in Nice Guys but her playbook isn’t far off and her behaviour is still rooted in a belief that she is entitled to insert herself into Jacob’s love life because she knows what’s best for him. The difference is semantics.
Perhaps. I think it’s different.
I suspect Joyce is already less passive and is probably going to become less so.
She’s really more the “Other Woman” stereotype here. She’s actively trying to seduce him (in her own way), not just waiting for them to break up.
And frankly, without the festering resentment and without the “I did stuff for you, you owe me dates and sex”, I’m not actually sure what’s left that’s wrong with the Nice Guy. At that point, we’re really left with “I’ve got a crush on you that I haven’t told you about since you’re dating someone else, but that’s okay. I’m cool with it.” We’ve pretty much all been there.
So… Thought Crime? (Namely ” I want this person to choose me over someone else”) I guess I just never saw dating as a inviolate bond, so I don’t see a problem unless lies are involved
You can’t ever find out where the dating is going to go if other people are constantly moving in on you. And it might be useful to practice actual monogamy so you know if you can handle it in an actual full-blown commitment.
Some people here may be poly and may say “uh what about poly people” but I’ve seen how summayou folks handle that stuff and let me say I’m mostly not impressed. Plus I’m not poly so I can’t speak from that perspective, not that there is ONE poly perspective anyway. If there’s anything you can say for mono people, it’s that they put more of an emphasis on boundaries and clean breaks. Ideally. In theory that means less emotional/psychic garbage to have to drag around.
“You can’t ever find out where the dating is going to go if other people are constantly moving in on you”
Sounds like we’re attributing someone’s inability to handle their own relationship decisions on other people. I mean, are we really taking the “it’s their fault for being interested in me, I couldn’t help myself” angle? Good grief.
Not sure how Poly came into this, but Poly is just monogamy with more people and a theoretically, potentially better end result. In short, the support structure and bonds formed could be that much more significant and reliable.. but imagine the difficulty of having a functional monogamous relationship, and then EXPONENTIALLY multiply it. It’s obvious that most poly relationships wouldn’t work out- though that doesn’t mean it isn’t something to aim for (if that’s an acceptable relationship structure for you), since the potential end result could be massively beneficial.
But, anyway. Poly has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, not only because it never came up in any way, but also because Poly (even just the less idealized, sexualized interpretation) requires openness (or it’s not poly, it’s cheating), meaning it can’t have been implied in any way.
In any case, if you’re that easily lured away from your current partner then, 1: You shouldn’t in a relationship with them, since it’s clear your relationship wasn’t strong and 2: You shouldn’t be in a relationship with anyone, since you lack proper respect for your partners. That has nothing to do with anyone hitting on you, regardless of how sultry and seductive they may be going about it [assuming they’re not actively deceiving you about anything, or manipulating you against your partner, or so forth]. It certainly doesn’t apply to respectful flirting, or to open admissions of interest. You have the ability to make a mature decision about your relationship progressions- casting aside that responsibility to put blame on others makes it pretty readily evident that the individual in question isn’t mature enough to properly handle a relationship of any sort.
And there we loop back to “even a basic monogamous relationship is difficult.. and requires effort“.
Final note, it’s “psychological”. Psychic is a bit different. 🙂
The thing is, she’s not. Jacob’s choices are his own, and every single person making the whole Joyce is being awful in having the intent of winning Jacob over and getting him to break up with Raidah seem to completely ignore that Jacob has actual agency and isn’t beholden in any way to Joyce’s whims, desires or intent.
Joyce can’t break them up unless Jacob wants them to break up, and the sorts of things that would actually cross a line, like spreading vicious rumors about Raidah, trying to create tension between her and Jacob’s other friends, or attempting to sabotage Raidah academically or socially isn’t happening.
Joyce is competing, and isn’t doing so in an underhanded way. Jacob isn’t being denied agency.
Yeah, we’ve all been over this any number of times since this storyline started.
You’re right. He still gets choices. She’s not actually taking his free will away. Nonetheless I think it’s uncool to try to do so, even not using the nastiest of methods.
They’re dating. Don’t hit on him. If they break up someday, ask him out then.
But I’m sure we’re going to disagree on this and I don’t really have anything further to say.
It is still rude to presume to tell someone, directly or indirectly, that you know better than they do about whom they should be dating. Let’s talk about agency here, by all means. *Joyce* has agency. And maybe she shouldn’t be abusing it.
I still like the lady, don’t get me wrong. I just think she needs to chill and let things run their course. Raidah’s not what you’d call a terribly nice person, and Jacob’s going to figure that out eventually when his hormones stop getting in the way.
you respect someone’s right to make their own decisions, and joyce neither has the privileged position nor has demonstrated the inclination to violate THAT rule. if anything, she is *presenting* him with choices to make, and you’re calling for her to *restrict* his options to choose among.
respecting someone’s decisions? like, each and every one? not only do you not owe anybody that, it’s not even possible to deliver that. if you ever go a *week* without making a forehead-slappingly stupid decision, let me know how it feels. ive certainly never done it, never seen it done.
He doesn’t need her help to make any decisions about whom he’s dating. He’s perfectly capable of dumping Raidah on his own and then going and chatting Joyce up if that is what he wants to do. The fact he is not doing it tells me that either he’s not interested in Joyce or that the interest only goes as far as theory and not far enough for him to want to act on it. Either way, he’s where he wants to be. It’s dating, not stealing plutonium for a flux capacitor from Middle Eastern terrorists. There are far worse decisions a person can make.
He still barely knows Joyce, and he’s still in a relationship with Raidah, which he needs to come to conclusions about. Are you forgetting the pacing of the comic’s timeline, or? ’cause I can’t figure out why you seem to be arguing against the very point you made just above. 😛
“Hi, let’s be friends. And I’ll be flirty, because I’m interested in you. If you don’t reciprocate that interest, that’s fine. But, rather than confront you about your bad relationship, let me passively offer you an alternative, for comparison. If you don’t accept that- agan, that’s fine, I won’t push it.” is a far cry different from the sort of seduction and manipulation and so forth that people are attributing to Joyce.
I mean, gods. Joyce isn’t acting any differently than some people do naturally, and such people (excluding those who ARE actively flirting with everyone) have it well-established that they’re not intentionally trying to “put moves” on someone. It’s not like Joyce is there complimenting Jacob’s biceps and talking about how good his abs must make him in bed. There’s nothing remotely improper going on.
And, as you say- he’s where he wants to be, and noone is trying to coerce him out of that. Name one clear thing that Joyce has done that remotely crosses a line, outside of the scope of “thought crimes”?
It’s one thing to talk to a friend, tell them you don’t think a relationship is good for them. It’s another to say “therefore you should be with me” or try to *make* them end a relationship.
I suspect it is going to do what she expects it to do. At least in the short term. (Eventually I expect she’ll escalate far enough to piss Jacob off, but we’re nowhere near that yet.)
This is relatively subtle “crapping on your boyfriend’s friends”. Just reminding him of things they’ve joked about and how much better of an impression she’ll make than that kid would.
Remember that Jacob and Sarah first bonded over silly Joyce stories. If you’re looking at Raidah through somewhat rose-tinted glasses (and are completely oblivious to the tension), this doesn’t look that different.
…”your avatar’s expression is exactly the expression I get whenever anyone asks me ‘How’s the weather up there?'”
That but looking downwards, I suppose.
yeah, but first “couple” impression… I blew that once by having my bf over at my parents’ house when I didn’t realize my mother was still home (and not dressed)
I’d like to picture that the brother is really chill and nice (like Jacob), and the need to dress up is a combination of couple impression (because yeah that’s a thing) and, moreover, that Raidah’s been really pushing this narrative that Jacob could never live up to his brother.
“….that Raidah’s been really pushing this narrative that Jacob could never live up to his brother.”
That sounds a lot more like clear-cut outright emotional abuse than anything I think I’ve seen from her before. It would completely change how we view the entire relationship.
I don’t think she’s actually been doing that. I think she’s been using his need to live up to his brother to manipulate him – and we’ve been seeing that for quite awhile now.
But it’s not that he can’t, it’s that he needs to do what she wants so that he will.
Jacob ends up working at a toy store in Shortpacked! as well as suffering serious substance abuse problems as well as sex addiction. He also becomes a hoarder. Jacob is incredibly well put together here but the implications are he can and does have the potential for a nervous breakdown.
I think it would be hilarious to see Raidah’s reaction if Jacob’s brother looked less like him and more like Jaleel White as Urkel. He’s still as accomplished as we’ve been told he is, but we all know she’ll just mentally check out right then and there.
Based on his constant complimenting of his brother, him stating that his brother is just so amazing, constantly pushing himself to meet that standard, and now this response – the “Well, I better go iron every shirt that I own.” They’re talking about making a good first impression in the same way that an interviewee would do when meeting with a potential employer.
Every single time that Jacob mentions his brother, it’s to strongly praise him and say -nothing- else, and when Raidah talks about Jacob’s brother to Jacob, it’s usually to push him to study harder or be more impressive to measure up to his brother. It seems like Jacob’s brother is one of, if not -the- defining motivations in his life.
You can’t really hero-worship someone without also defining yourself as inferior.
Rather, her shallowness relates to things such as disdain for low-income people, complex emotional decisions, innocence, etc. It doesn’t seem to relate to things that reflect her upper-class mentality. As such, physical appearance probably wouldn’t be as important to her as someone’s employment accomplishments and social standing.
Okay let’s turn it around then. What if she gets a serious case of foot-in-mouth after learning the scrawny nerd she just dismissed or condescended to is Jacob’s perfect brother?
Come to think of it, for Raidah that’s the more likely scenario anyway. Remember how she treated Dina in the mall? First impressions are everything with her.
Honestly, this is a bridge too far. She is very much class- and status-obsessed, that much is obvious. So long as Jacob’s brother fulfills that particular agenda, then she’ll still be focused on him.
I can see why Raidah’s not worried about Joyce’s flirtiness breaking up her and Jacob. Judging by that last panel, her own attitude is already doing the job nicely.
I feel like I have this reaction to a lot of DoA strips, but:
Interesting, intrigued how this is going to play out.
The frown in the last panel, for instance. Anxiety about his brother, no doubt, but also in reaction to the Raidah comment? Maybe he doesn’t like having to posture and be so grown up, maybe he is reacting to her dig at Joyce.
Oof, yeah, it looks like Raidah’s point’s been made (that Joyce is not the kind of girl who’s going to get Jacob where he wants to go).
And I think Raidah seems a little nervous about meeting Jacob’s brother, who’s a bigshot in her chosen profession and someone Jacob looks up to a lot, but I think, sadly, her talking about this is making him feel worse.
That’s a very kind interpretation of what Raidah is doing here.
To me, it reads as Raidah manipulating Jacob with his anxieties to meet his brothers standards while belittling Joyce in an incredibly condescending way.
If Jacob doesn’t realize that’s asshole behavior, he’s a much less nice guy than I thought.
I think it still is. She jumps right in with it to keep from going on further about the good parts of the conversation with Joyce, then doubles down with the “first impressions” and kid’s menu stuff.
None of which means she might not also be nervous about the meeting, but it really seems intentional here.
I think Raidah looks a just a bit too nervous about what she should wear and first impressions for this one to intentional. She seems a little intimidated by meeting him too. I think the fact he’s usually pretty casual or happy to talk about his brother (he showed no signs of discomfort earlier when talking about him) I’d say it’s easier for her to miss this time.
Although, yeah, definitely doesn’t miss the chance to take a shot at Joyce.
Not everyone gets passive-agressiveness and stuff like that, and it doesn’t make them a bad person. Just, naive or evident that they don’t have great social awareness.
Is that really passive aggressiveness, though? I thought passive aggressiveness was all about having uncommunicated expectations and then holding the other person accountable for having not met them. I’m not saying Raidah isn’t doing something wrong, but it feels like it would have a different term.
Regardless, how one chooses to react in the moment when one sees that ones associates are less than perfect being is not the entire being of their character. Jacob could be realizing exactly what’s going on with Joyce, Raidah, Sarah, Walky, Ethan, Danny, Joe, Mike, and so forth, and he’s just not overtly reacting because things are complicated and he’s not making a snap decision just to meet some anxious fan’s schedule to end the series early in one nice, neat package.
I understand there’s a lot more going on in this strip than Jacob’s love life, but the buffer extends all the way to October! None of the shit in this shit is resolving quickly, and that takes thoughtful or oblivious characters like Jacob and Becky. (Um, no, that’s not a ship. Although I did meet a Gay/Lesbian couple at a party once who were deeply in love and handled their stupidly incompatible sexual needs by double-dating.)
I think the scene right after Raidah showed up where she and Joyce glared at each other and we saw Jacob’s thought ballooon of “pizza” was a pretty clear indication that Jacob was still oblivious. It’s possible he’s clued in since then, but there’s been no indication.
Unlike, for example, Dorothy where we were given reaction shots to establish she knew what was going on even before Raidah showed up, even though she didn’t directly say anything about it until last strip to Becky.
Willis is actually pretty good at conveying this stuff even if Jacob was trying to avoid a snap decision.
You know what, I take it back, Jacob dump the bongo, go pick Joyce up in one arm, deny her those extra steps so you can win and then talk about the “picture bible” on the way back to campus. Fuck you Raidah, maybe recognize the clear anxiety your boyfriend is showing and care more about that than impressing his brother. Your networking ability is probably very impressive, but your social ability is as repulsive as the rest of your behavior.
I never noticed it before now, I don’t even know what words are filtered out. But that does explain some of the random words in other comments I’ve seen before.
If that is the case that is even more disgusting, it is one thing to simply ignore or not notice when your partner needs your help, it is another to actively make their problems worse because you think it benefits you. I want to try and give Raidah some credit that she isn’t trying to induce anxiety in Jacob but at this point I wouldn’t be surprised.
No, it’s definitely deliberate. That’s the third time she’s brought up Jacob’s brother *specifically* in the context of Jacob-You’ll-Never-Live-Up-To-Him, which seems to be a real issue for Jacob.
Also somehow I replied to your wrong comment below, derp.
It’s cool, I commented more than usual this evening so it happens. And yeah I hadn’t noticed that but that really sucks. :/ Hopefully there’s a great comeuppance for Raidah and a happy ending(or happy middle-of-the-story as it is) for Jacob.
OK, Raidah seriously needs to calm the fuck down with the whole “being adult” thing. She’s barely any older than Joyce and she certainly isn’t acting her age to begin with.
You’d be surprised at how quickly a superiority complex makes people feel more mature than they actually are. Though I guess that is exactly part of what a superiority complex does.
No, it’s definitely deliberate. That’s the second time she’s brought up Jacob’s brother *specifically* in the context of Jacob-You’ll-Never-Live-Up-To-Him, which seems to be a real issue for Jacob.
Well, that’s specifically about the “kids menu” and everyone makes fun of Joyce only being able to eat off the kids menu.
Raidah is of course weaponizing it.
Raidah is reminding me of how my sister describes her boyfriend’s brother. Someone who acts superior and belittles everything that isn’t up to “adult” standards.
Adding on… if raidah is so impressed by Jacob’s brother’s standards than just date him.. i dont mean like literally but it feels like she’s just assuming since his brother has x standards than so does jacob.
Except Jacob DOES have high standards. Jacob wants to have the same ambitious lawyer life as his brother because he wants to be like him and make his family proud. That’s a lot of pressure and Raidah isn’t helping in this instance, but he DOES want the ‘glamorous life’ as Raidah called it.
My “read” on Harrison here for some reason was that Jacob’s blown away by his achievements – his brother has made the world tangibly better. It’s not necessarily being rich or high profile that he thinks is amazing – although thos strip indicates that these things may make him nervous around him.
However, this interpretation may be coloured by my opinion of Jacob…
I think you’re probably right about that. Though the two are probably merged together to some extent.
My theory now is that when Harrison does show up, he’ll have gotten Jacob’s stories confused and think he’s dating “that awesome girl who punched out a kidnapper”.
Don’t go selling Jacob’s girlfriend short; she’s *also* the girl who fought off the date rapist scum who was slipping stuff into innocent women’s drinks at parties while talking up his preacher heritage, *and* she was prominently campaigning for Harrison’s favorite congresswoman. Plus, while Jacob hasn’t put two and two together yet, Jacob’s girlfriend is also Amazi-Girl.
I think Jacob wants all three. And that’s not a bad thing, but it does mean he probably doesn’t want someone intent on a simple life that’s romance based.
I don’t think either of those are true. Jacob is very perceptive, and he seems very empathetic. However it seems he would probably avoid confrontation until it is absolutely necessary. I would guess the she is beginning to push her luck but he just isn’t ready to call her out on it just yet
Except the complication only comes into play if he likes both women romantically, which hasn’t been shown to be the case. He hasn’t even been shown to be aware of Joyce liking him. Without that feeling towards Joyce, the situation is merely a lunch with his friends and girlfriend.
So if we assume he’s oblivious, then there is no complication.
If we assume he’s aware and just not showing us his actual thoughts and feelings, then that allows the possibility that he’s more in line with Raidah’s attitude then most of us would like to assume and that similarly hasn’t been shown to us.
Wow, you’re world is certainly a lot simpler than mine.
For me, if I found I was dating someone like Raidah, even without the added complication of a possible other woman interested, exactly how to go about breaking up with Raidah would require a lot of thought. If she really was everything I wanted, apart from the jealousy bit, knowing that she had that jealousy bit might not be enough to make me decide immediately to dump her.
Also, typically, if I did decide to dump her, I’d most likely do it via getting her to dump me for somebody else instead, because I’m scum like that. Not that I would deliberately do this, mind you; it’s just how it’s worked out two times out of three. Probably a better way to put is, “I’d take long enough to figure out how to dump her that she’d leave me first”. Admittedly, I never went out with someone as obviously jealous and manipulative as Raidah, so I might have an easier time with just breaking up with her.
I’m straightforward. That way, I don’t have to play games like that.
Leaving that aside, TheJeff was talking about Jacob missing/ignoring Joyce’s feelings for Jacob and her going back and forth with Raidah. Thus, your reply about complications would be expected to refer to that, not Jacob’s relationship with Raidah. Which, again, he can just break up with her if her attitude is that big a problem.
It does sound it! Although if his brother is all that, would he really go for his baby bro’s girl??
Would kinda like to see her hitting on him in front of Jacob, Jacob calling her on it, Raidah responding along rhe lines of “everything’s fair in love and war”, Harrison – unimpressed – reminding her about the Geneva convention, Jacob dumping her, and his brother telling her he doesn’t date petty children.
People who are that duplicitous themselves generally believe that everyone else is, too. That or foolish. Raidah has obviously sorted Jacob’s brother into the former and Joyce into the latter, not realizing that there are people who are perfectly capable of perfidy who resist because it’s ultimately a losing strategy. Jacob is that third category; I’ll be interested to see which one his brother is.
Not much, it’s just that she’s sees Joyce’s attempt as clumsy and juvenile and therefore not a threat, and thinks herself superior to Joyce, and so she lumps Joyce with the fools
It’s pretty clear to me that she sees Joyce as a threat, despite her denials. That’s why she raced down to lunch. That’s why she’s playing these games.
I don’t see that at all. The whole point of talking up Harrison is to manipulate Jacob. She’s not just going on about him because she thinks he’s great, but because Jacob does.
Plus Harrison’s likely close to 10 years older than them – out of college + law school + enough experience to play a role on a major case.
I agree with you. I also think people’s dislike of Raidah is causing them to read stuff into her statements that aren’t there. And that isn’t necessary; she’s distasteful enough all on her own.
Not a fan of what Joyce is doing but I also really fucking hate Raidah and her stuck-up pretentious ass really doesn’t deserve a complete sweetheart like Jacob. I just hope if he breaks up with her that it’ll be more because he legit realizes she’s pretty awful and not b/c of what Joyce (and previously Sarah) is doing.
I am wondering if part of why he puts up with Raidah is because of his own issues with intimacy. Maybe he feels Raidah is his only chance at a relationship built on something that isn’t sex. When he dumps her I do believe it will be because of Joyce, but it will be because Joyce showed him that there’s something out there better then Raidah
I think he’s just got it in his head that
Dating Someone Like Raidah = Wearing Big-Boy Pants
Basically that this kind of relationship is what you’re Supposed To Do.
And Raidah has been selling this idea every time we’ve seen her, so it makes sense she’d have been the person who snagged him.
I remember in college I had a lot of ideas about What Must Happen In Adulthood. Pursuing those without thinking through the why caused me a lot of grief.
Way to deliberately misinterpret what somebody said, to make it about something it wasn’t.
Raidah is a pretentious, stuck up ass, independent of her pathetic squabble with Joyce. What that could possibly have to do with Also Becky’s hypothetical views on women of color and the uppity-ness thereof, I haven’t the faintest fucking idea.
Doomska seems to be convinced that the only reason people don’t like Raidah is because she’s not white, and that any criticisms leveled at her character are the product of racism.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Raidah “defending” her relationship, if she truly wanted to do that she could talk to Jacob and explain she feels that Joyce may be trying something underhanded. But Raidah playing on Jacob’s anxieties, using him as a means to get ahead, talking down to anyone that isn’t furthering her goals and not caring about Jacob’s emotions?
All of that is what people are upset by, so don’t assume this has anything to do with the color of Raidah’s skin. Just the color of her heart, and that part of her black and white, since she replaced it with legal documents a long time ago.
That is a fair point, and that is why I said talk to him not accuse him of doing anything wrong. He clearly doesn’t know that Joyce has any feelings for him, or he hasn’t shown it, so Raidah giving him that heads up and talking to him is perfectly normal. Either way her treatment of Jacob is the main issue here, not her treatment of Joyce. If Raidah wants to do that to Joyce I understand why and Joyce has brought it on herself, Jacob has not done anything wrong here.
I would argue that if she has concerns about one of his friends that are affecting her behaviour towards them, and doesn’t feel able to talk to him about it all (and neither a joking “It’s a good thing I’m not the jealous type: Joyce seems to have a thing for you!” nor a more serious “I can see you don’t see it but I’m pretty sure Joyce has a big crush on you, and I’m worried you’ll break her heart” should come across as jealous, if she’s relaxed, and she was when she spoke to her friends about this) – HE isn’t right for HER. Communication is so important in relationships…
That is basically my take on Jacob. Which is good, because at least it means he’s got one flaw.:)
But of course Raidah’s not going to do that, because manipulative is what she does. We see it retrospectively even in that scene where she talks about how she’s not the jealous type – she’d just ditch him and move on.
Which is clearly not what she’s doing.
Not strictly. But definitely by implication.
That little speech certainly didn’t include “Yes, I will get jealous and try to disrupt anyone who does seem to be flirting with you and I won’t trust you enough to talk to you openly about it.”
Oh for fucks sake, I’m so sick of seeing this argument. Nobody hates raidah because she’s a woc. We hate raidah for two reasons stated: she is a stuck up pretentious bongo. Also manipulative, self centered, condescending as *fuck*, and lets not forget how she talked down to Dina like she was a small child *after* finding out she was 18 and calling her mentally challenged. She was hated long before all this relationship stuff happened. In fact, her personality is on par with the “popular rich white girl” villains in shitty high school movies that try to be mean girls. It’s typically seen on white women and guess what? Nobody fucking likes those characters. Thats because tje hate for raidah has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, gender, and everything to do with her shitty personality, which would be hated on white women, absolutely on white men (for some reason that one makes me even angrier). I hate people trying to defend raidah because she is a brown Muslim woman. It’s disgusting and reductive.
I am finding it amazing that there are champions of light that can fight through all this dark, deep foreshadowing that Joyce is heading towards a self-earned reckoning to still believe, through sheer willpower, that she’s the good guy here.
You realise that just because someone else is exhibiting poor behavior doesn’t automatically mean your behavior is good, right? Like, yeah, Joyce is being a Not Good (TM) person right now, but Raidah’s not exactly a paragon here. I don’t like what Joyce is doing here, at all, but Raidah’s being very rude and condescending, instead of being forward with Jacob about her concerns.
Oh yeah definitely, Joyce’s actions right now are worse than Raidah, but I dont see how thats relevant, cause no matter how shitty Joyce is being, or how much to blame she is, in most cases that shouldn’t really determine our criticism of Raidah’s behaviour
Considering we’re talking largely about her behaviour TOWARDS Joyce I think how Joyce is acting towards her is kinda relevant. Like, I’m not getting why Raidah is expected to be remotely civil towards this girl who is actively trying to fuck over her relationship. Yeah, it sucks that her only real option for for actively protecting her relationship from this interloper is veiled barbs to diminish her but Jacob’s made it clear he’s not going to tolerate jealousy even if it’s justified and he’s just too oblivious to see it so she can’t exactly be upfront about it even if she wanted to lest she be labelled crazy and jealous.
I agree that Raidah isn’t under any obligation to be perfectly civil with Joyce, but I don’t think Raidah is as devoid of options as you make it to be. Jacob in this strip doesn’t seem like he won’t tolerate jealousy, he doesn’t say jealousy is a dealbreaker for him and its left ambiguous whether those relationships were broken up by him over their jealousy or them because of jealousy.
Raidah seems to be doing this because she might not trust Jacob enough to confide in him, or because of worry of what he’ll do when confronted by the realization, not because its her only option.
That being said, my original post was about her behaviour in this strip, what with encouraging his anxiety to further her own goals, sorry about the lack of clarity
I mean, willis isn’t really giving us anything that hints why she’d do that instead of confide in Jacob, so all we can do is assume
The closest thing I can get as potential proof for my “she’s scared off what Jacob will do if he realizes he likes Joyce” assumption is this strip , where is seems like she’s worried about the possibility of Jacob falling for Joyce if he realizes it, and so it would make sense if she decides to try to keep him from that realization.
Think of it this way: Raidah knows Joyce is trying to fuck over her relationship, but Jacob doesn’t. If she says anything to him, he will likely thinks she’s just another jealous girlfriend because he is oblivious to the situation. So from his perspective, it’s less “she’s making fun of someone who’s trying to wreck our relationship”, more “she’s insulting one of my best friends to both our faces”. To come off that way would not be in raidahs best interest, that’s like a one way ticket to dumpville. In terms of underhandedness, it would probably be better to be completely friendly with Joyce in front of Jacob, then lose the mask when hes out of ear shot. Right now, even though Jacob tends to be oblivious, she’s really pushing her luck, because to him it just looks like she’s poking fun at Joyce because she’s just different from them (Jacob and Raidah). He might think of it as playful banter, but he’s bound to catch on eventually.
The thing I’m running into here is that Jacob sees parts of himself he LIKES in Joyce. Stuff he doesn’t always want to admit he likes, because he thinks Being a Big Boy is very important.
But the result is that snarking on Joyce doesn’t just look like jealousy. A few of those barbs Raidah’s slinging at Joyce are probably stinging Jacob too.
Yeah, and she could do what I said she should be doing: be forward with Jacob about her concerns. Like the mature adult she claims to be. Not being a rude and condescending twat.
I’ve just said above – if things Jacob has said about jealous ex-girlfriends has left her unable to communicate with him about this with him at all – he is not right for her. Because “I know you don’t see it and wouldn’t encourage it if you did, but I’m pretty certain Joyce has a massive crush on you, and this is her way of flirting. I think she’s been pretty sheltered growing up? I know you would feel awful if you accidentally broke her heart, so please, just be aware it might be a possibility” should not come across as jealous or accusative.
Look, Doomska, you just don’t understand. Joyce is a nice girl, she’s nice and sweet and supportive, she’s obviously way better for the super-hot guy than that Mega-Bongo Raidah, who’s cruel and manipulative and ugh just such a jerk, she’d be just so much better for him, he just needs to realize it, that’s why everything Joyce is doing is totally legitimate!
………and, other people, if you nodded along and agreed with everything I just said, you’re cheering on the person developing Nice Guy Syndrome.
I don’t want to disagree since I don’t care for the rightness of any of the two here, but is there such a thing than a reverse Nice Guy Syndrome? Wouldn’t the “Nice Guy Syndrome” linked to the systemic oppression of women by men, and so the reverse could only be false equivalence?
Well there’s obviously going to be an inherent difference because male entitlement is so legitimized in our society but that doesn’t mean a woman can’t engage in the same behaviours and be super gross for doing so.
Oh trust me, NiceGirls exist. Just look on reddit.theres a lot of slut shaming and “I’m not like other girls! So I’m better than them!”, A lot of the girl claiming she just wanted to use the guy after getting rejected, insulting the girl her crush picked over her, entitlement to relationships (including thinking they deserve their ex back after they were caught cheating), and complete disrespect for boundaries. I once saw a girl get pissed that her date wouldn’t have sex with her and responded to “doesn’t no mean no?” With “only when I say it!”
I can get that. But isn’t it like all these antifem women? I mean, the point still is that as well for Nice guy TM as for the guy targeted by the “Nice Girl”, in both case it’s the man that has an impression of ownership, no? it’s a byproduct of the patriarchal systemic, no?
Also, I’m not sure you examples are the same.
No, there’s definitely a sense of ownership from the nice girls side. I forgot to mention that they’re generally the type that don’t believe men can be abused by women, and therefore tend to emotionally and sometimes physically abuse whatever poor saps fall for them. They’re the types who will say “if you’re a female you have zero reason to be talking to my man.” And like I said, they still feel entitled to the relationship even after they destroyed it themselves like if they cheated.
Except we’re seeing this from an outside perspective. It’s quite possible for us to think Raidah is a manipulative jerk and Jacob would be better off without her and be right about it.
Hell, it’s even possible to think that Jacob and Joyce would make a good couple and still think she shouldn’t be rewarded for her shitty behavior.
My biggest disappointment with this whole story arc is that I’m pretty sure it’s going to preclude Jacob/Joyce for just that reason.
Flirting with the guy involved in a relationship, with the intent of breaking up the relationship and dating him herself. (Or earlier, her announced intent of breaking them up for Sarah.)
If you don’t think that’s shitty, I don’t know what else to say.
Adding onto what thejeff said, even if you believe Joyce flirting with the dude in the relationship to break it up is fine, her flirting will also heighten tension between Jacob and Raidah, tension that might lead to a breakup, which also conceivably wouldn’t be there is Joyce hadn’t inserted herself in the situation. In this case, how could you say that Joyce is blameless? Hell, even her intentions are shitty too, she’s clearly ignoring Jacob and Raidah’s choice to be in a monogamous relationship with each other, disregarding Raidah entirely, as well as disregarding any fallout that Jacob may have to deal with.
I feel like right in this moment, his expression is just that he’s really, really sad that he has to put so much effort into “living up” to everyone else’s expectations.
At this point, I’m not sure Joyce OR Raidah is right for Jacob. Joyce doesn’t want the glamorous life Jacob does and she’s not particularly ambitious. Jacob wants someone who’s capable of being involved in the high life with him in their own right – someone who gets it basically. But Raidah talking about his brother is making him uncomfortable here and I think she’s been hitting that button a lot with how much she’s harping on his brother today (although in this instance I think it’s unintentional – she looks nervous about meeting him too rather than consciously going for anxiety). I think Jacob could use someone who is similarly ambitious and capable of understanding what that means to him but also someone who’s a bit more emotionally perceptive and supportive (and, ideally, someone he can read and support as well).
I could be wrong, maybe Raidah will notice and try to help. That would be nice.
You sure he wants that “glamorous life”? It’s Raidah who says “he needs me because of these reasons”. Plus, it’s obvious Jacob is under some pressure to step out of his brother’s shadow, he feels like he has to live up to his success in some way.
Plus, Joyce is a very supportive person, and her friend is the girl who wants to be president as well.
They get along, and I think they could have worked out, just… probably not like this. I just don’t see it happening.
Yes, I am sure. Jacob’s expressions have been showing he’s not that enthused about the simpler life and Jacob’s already said Raidah’s check for check his ideal girlfriend. Raidah’s not making that up.
And while Joyce is very supportive, she herself isn’t ambitious and has no major glamour goals. Hence Jacob’s expressions when she thinks 50K is a lot of money or his ‘yeah, whoof’ here.
I have no doubt Joyce and he get along great but I don’t think they’d be happy long term.
To be fair to Joyce, I don’t think she’s had the opportunity to explore her personality enough to decide if she’s ambitious or not. She’s never been granted the luxury of defining her own aspirations.
Pretty much this. Though she doesn’t yet see it in the same terms Becky does, the “sum of her allowed ambitions” was the same.
Jacob might help her break out of that mold and soar. After all, we know she really wants to be a fighter pilot with her own cartoon show who makes mac and cheese for their kids. 🙂
I hope he does. I don’t think Joyce really wants to be an early childhood educator. And personally I think she would’ve been a tomboy in a household that allowed her to explore herself more. I see her winding up in some STEM field if she explores who she is more.
By contrast I hope Danny does go into education. Think he would be good at it.
She really hasn’t yet, but I’m speaking about her now, not who she may grow to be in the future. It’s entirely possible she’ll grow into someone more ambitious and go-getter.
so basically you’re saying Dorothy would be perfect for him
too bad Dorothy herself needs someone who’d help soothe and distract her and bring something to her life that’s not her career and ambitions. like Walky. exactly like Walky. just Walky. she needs Walky back breaking up with him for the sake of burning herself out worse was a terrible idea
Nah, Dorothy would probably be frazzled and stressed out by someone who’s just as ambitious as she is. She has a tendency to make everyone’s problems her problems and in the ‘glamorous life’ that’s going to cause rapid burnout. Dorothy needs someone low-key and fun with minimal problems so she doesn’t end every night screaming into her pillow because she’s stressing out.
I think Jacob has not indicated ANY of that. Mostly, Jacob seems to like Raidah because she’s not pressuring him for sex and they’re just enjoying each other’s company. He showed interest in Sarah until she became proved unable to move out of her misanthrope mood.
A) Jacob’s suggested fooling around with her fairly casually.
B) Again, Jacob’s said Raidah’s check for check what he wants in a girlfriend – at least to his own understanding (he doesn’t like girlfriends who get jealous, for example). Based on his own desire to be equal with his brother, who IS living the glamour life (at least to Raidah’s standards), I’d say that he’s looking for someone who DOES want the glamorous life (and would thereby understand his ambitions) and be able to stand next to him there. That’s not Joyce. It might have been Sarah (to the extent of also wanting to be a lawyer, if not the sociability aspects) but honestly Raidah’s closer than either of those two are.
I do suspect that Jacob and Raidah would define glamour like somewhat differently. But the things they want out of it often come together – especially when you’re pursuing it through law school.
To be fair, I don’t think Joyce really knows what she wants. She’s never really had the chance to think about it. When she is made to think about it, her responses are childish and fanciful because her whole life she has been allowed but a single ambition, and it is one I think she is starting to realize is a poor fit.
Yeah, my vote is solidly on ‘Jacob finds someone else after he tells both of them off for their shitty behavior in this field’.
I do think Joyce might get more ambitious once she truly realizes she’s allowed to be, but it’ll take a while for her to figure all of that out. Also, again, I do hope this ends with Jacob telling her life’s not a romcom and that behavior’s not okay.
Raidah, at the most generous, doesn’t recognize she’s aggravating Jacob’s inferiority complex with his brother. Also, I kind of think a lawyer who clearly cares about civil rights is going to be unimpressed with her if she insults professions that aren’t paid well or someone who appears to have ARFID, so she had better keep an eye on that. (I am sure she’ll try to make a Good Impression, but this meeting being mentioned guarantees chaos will ensue, and Raidah clearly considers a Good Impression including building herself up by putting others down as an option. Jacob doesn’t notice the meaner stuff because it’s tied up in his anxieties and she almost certainly didn’t start off with this shit when she met him, but if she does it the first time Harrison meets her he won’t have that thought process most likely.)
Also seriously, Joyce needs a supportive online community because I’m pretty sure she has an eating disorder.
Honestly, there’s a part of me that wants to see the meeting end up one of two ways:
1) Raidah keeps up her routine of condescending to anyone “below” her, only to find that after spending so long primping and preening and working on manufacturing her first impression her attitude ends up ruining it for her when Jacob’s brother calls her out on it.
or
2) Raidah ends up on the receiving end of her own games and either has a moment of empathy or blows her lid.
I think I like the first one better, because the running theme regarding meeting characters’ families is dispelling misconceptions of our families we form as kids, and this would give Jacob a chance to humanize his brother.
I also like the idea of Raidah getting to grow as a person! Gets called out on shitty behavior and challenged to be as responsible emotionally as she is intellectually, and Rises To It, taking on her own issues and starting to treat people better.
I mean, she’d become a bit of a boring character to deal with at that point – basically her only useful role would be Wise Mentor (or the college-story equivalent of Reformed Villain) – but there are enough other freakazoid characters in the ‘verse to keep the story running without her being shitty in center stage.
Assuming Dorothy and Walky don’t get back together, I feel like Dorothy and Jacob would make an interesting couple.
I’m not sure if Dorothy would pursue that relationship even if she wanted to though since she knows about Joyce’s crush.
(This is not meant to be a commentary about the ethics of Joyce’s behaviour here, just thoughts on what Dorothy might believe about dating someone your friend already has a crush on.)
Probably some place that has a fucking chandelier and/or sconces, with those intangible white tablecloths that almost touch the floor, and like, no fucking light, so you have to squint to read their asinine menu that’s basically Olive Garden’s but with a quarter the portion and six times the price. Oh, and every fucking counter is curved and wavy, like they’re worried a straight line will displease the hypothetical phantom of a potential rich Frenchman who might, under the unknowable perfect circumstances, notice the place and have the tiniest of vague criticisms about something or other.
Indeed – though I have been to supposedly ‘adult’ restaurants that actually had decent light. And pretty good but also pretty expensive food. There was only one time the price was not waranted by the taste.
Though I suppose Raidah mistook the adjective she used, she obviously meant “expensive”, not “adult”. But expensive doesn’t always equal good.
Plus: She just assumes Joyce and all never go to fancy restaurants. With Joyce and Becky it is the case, but disregarding that, where’d she expect to get her lunch in a timely manner to still be able to get to class? Fast food joints and Deli’s exist especially for that.
The nearest I get to going to an expensive restaurant is this local Indian Place with the nicer than standard decor but the food isn’t all that much pricier than the Indian takeaways you find in shopping mall food courts.
I did try a TGI Fridays once, the potions were pitiful and the price was up to 3 times higher than if I had gone to one of those sporting club venues.
I think she meant adult. To emphasize Joyce eating off the kid’s menu and how embarassing it would be for Jacob to take Joyce to meet his brother and have to find a place with food-not-touching-other-food.
I’m sure the class would come out if needed, but she’s aiming at low hanging fruit here. No need point out Joyce wouldn’t know which fork to use.
Jacob isn’t going to break with Raidah because of her being a liberal elitist, a classist, or just a bully that destroys lives, but he is going to break up with her for not liking non spicy chicken. Boneless chicken without sauce tastes good.
Admitting that Raidah is manipulating him means admitting to having been fooled for a long time and generally accepting self doubt. He is not secure enough to call her out.
You honestly seem like a troll; she at minimum keeps comparing him to his brother unnecessarily and keeps acting passive-aggressive towards Joyce and undermining her in front of him. It is not ‘protecting a relationship’ as you claimed in another comment, it is attempting to damage his friendships and his self-esteem while acting like nothing is wrong.
I don’t know how intentional this is, but… Well, one of the jokes about white people is their (okay, our) aversion to spice. I KNOW, I KNOW, plenty of white people DO like spice, and maybe you’re one of them, you don’t have to yell at me! But it’s a stereotype other cultures can (and do) laugh about. It’s like the thing about not having a white person bring the potato salad to the cookout.
Food is more than just food; it’s identity. And while Willis makes it explicit that Raidah is equating non-spicy chicken with immaturity, it could also be read as her reminding Jacob of their shared blackness, which also excludes Joyce.
If there is one demographic of people who are *more* poised to make fun of white people for intolerance to spice/spiciness than balck people, lemme tell you about how it’s Indians/South Asians.
Depends on the region too, even in the US. Even for traditional regional cuisines, not just tolerance of eating at “ethnic restaurants”.
Anywhere with a southwestern influence can give most spicy cuisines a run for their money. Tex-Mex, chilis, Cajun and creole foods. Admittedly, that’s influence from non-white cuisines, but it’s still been widely adopted by the local white folks.
Yeah, isn’t that, like, one of the most mild possible Indian dishes? But it isn’t even Indian, because it was invented in the UK (either because the British thought Chicken Tikka was too dry or too spicy, depending on the story you believe)?
Joyce’s food issues are a running joke among her friends and family. Not a “white people” thing. They’re a natural and easy target for Raidah everything else aside.
So neither Joyce and Raidah are covering themselves in glory here however in this particular instance Raidah wins this round
Last panel shows Jacob concerned about brother what his brothers opinion and while a lot of people think Joyce is nice and sweet and lovely and caring I’m thinking that Jacob thinks Harrisons reaction wouldn’t be too dissimilar to Joyces brother (the missionary one) when the Brown siblings and Becky met up
It sounds (but not confirmed) that Harrison has standards and expectations which is no bad thing when you set high goals for yourself
So if you were meeting someone like that then in a choice between Raidah at a fancy restaurant or Joyce in a family restaurant (for lack of a better term) then its not even close, Raidah will have a very good idea of how to act whereas Joyce will likely put her foot (or mouth) in it
But whatever happens there’ll be drama and shenanigans aplenty
Disagree. Notice how Jacob’s smiling when they say goodbye to Joyce and Dorothy? And how he isn’t anymore at the end of the strip, after Raidah mentioned his brother (again), dismissed his remark, and talked down to Joyce’s (and his) choice of restaurant?
Joyce didn’t *win*, but Raidah does a good job shooting herself in the foot here.
Hes not smiling because he just remembered that hes meeting up with his brother and that he has a lot of ironing to do
If he feels he that needs to iron his clothing when meeting his brother then he knows its probably not a good to idea to suggest Harrison meets him at a family restaurant so they can all enjoy chicken fingers that aren’t too spicy
He may well do but we don’t know that and the person that appears to know him best, Jacob, seems to think that fancy restaurants and ironed clothes are the way to go
Or he’s not smiling because, somewhere deep down that he doesn’t even admit is a possibility, he’s imagining bringing Joyce to meet his brother and how embarrassed he’d be by all the superficial things Raidah’s been bringing up. (And maybe the more serious ones like Joyce having no apparent ambitions beyond being a housewife and mom.)
Little realizing maybe that Harrison would be as impressed as he was by the fundie who punched out her lesbian friend’s kidnapping bigoted dad.
My view is different that Jacob DOESN’T want to live in his brother’s shadow but not in the way Raidah thinks. He doesn’t want to follow his brother’s path and we know Jacob ends up having a complete breakdown in the Shortpacked verse. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s because of Raidah.
More properly, I think he’s realising that Raidah is going to expect him to be just like Harrison — she wants to be one half of a power couple. And I somehow think Jacob has plans of his own for his life, that don’t involve being a carbon copy of his brother.
Gonna say preemptively, after reading more posts, I’m sure she is aware in how she’s manipulating him and so on, but she really doesn’t seem aware that he looks really disappointed when she disses his friends.
I think if I was there in person I could read Jacob’s micro expressions and see how how his thoughts are tending. But here, he’s opaque. I can read him one of several ways and I have no idea which is correct.
I reread the last few strips with Raidah in and wow there was really nothing redeeming about her at all, seriously Raidah just chill out a bit. I get that you’re feeling threatened with Joyce but damn she really tried to cut both Joyce and Dorothy to pieces.
Also I think that has rubbed off on Jacob too, that moment where he’s gone “yeah whoof” and then looks really sad afterwards, he doesn’t want to be that person at all
Hopefully these guys can talk, at the moment I don’t think Jacob should really be with either of them
You know, if Raidah could stop obsessing about herself for one minute, she’d see that Jacob is not a happy bunny. I’ve said it before: Joyce won’t have to win anything; Raidah will end up throwing it all away because she’s so self-obsessed.
You do understand that you can go after the things you want while being considerate of people’s feelings yes? And that Joyce hasn’t actually crossed any lines that could cause Jacob or even Raidah any problems? If Jacob is unhappy with Raidah and prefers being with Joyce, he should be. If he’s not, he won’t be. Jacob has all the actual power here. He gets to make the decision.
But you do understand that Regardless of how you view Joyce’s behavior, she does not consider Raidah’s feelings?
That part is clear. She does want to break up Raidah and Jacob and they were just sniping at each other all through lunch.
So you can try to claim she’s considerate of Jacob’s feeling (I disagree), but she’s definitely not considerate of Raidah’s.
I hate food snobbery more than anything else. For food if I can eat it and I can afford it and it’s safe/clean that makes it the best food in the world.
Ooh, look at the safe-playing square, preferring edible food. Try living on the wild side for once, and eat some real food, like Little Caesar’s or a kiwi fruit.
Sorry, but I have a hard time figuring things out, so could someone explain to me what a family restaurant is? I believe it’s not the same in my culture.
Also, wouldn’t it be considered more mature to eat with fork and knife, hence the adult word? I’m asking there, there is a big cultural gap I still have to figure.
Family restaurants are generally more casual. Kid-friendly especially. So they’ll have booster seats and kids’ menus and if the kids are being loud no one cares. An adult restaurant would be more formal and any kids, if they’re allowed, would be expected to be quiet.
Family restaurants are an almost uniquely North American thing. Generally in North America, fancy restaurants are considered places where people shouldn’t bring children unless those children are older or exceptionally well-behaved. Kids aren’t forbidden, per se, but more that it’s socially discouraged and mainstream impression is that children don’t belong somewhere fancy like that. As well, if your child starts behaving in a disruptive or unhappy way, you may be asked to leave if you don’t leave on your own.
But families with kids like to be able to eat out once in a while, right? And how are kids supposed to learn the rules of how to eat out if they never get to go to a restaurant? So a whole industry of less fancy restaurants with explicit accommodations for children has popped up, and these are termed “family restaurants” which generally have special (super bland) menus for kids and booster seats/high chairs, etc, and where children being kids are tolerated. Some family restaurants even have activity rooms or playgrounds for children to play in while the adults enjoy some adult conversation for a change (McDonald’s and Dairy Queen are two common franchises that do this in Canada) and several have children’s menus with toys to keep the kids busy.
Elsewhere in the world, generally speaking, family restaurants don’t seem to be a thing. Parents bring their kids to real restaurants and feed their kids off the parents’ plates (if the child is too young to eat their own meal) or order their kids adult entrees – kid’s menus aren’t a thing because many cultures hold that kids’ can only develop a palate through exposure, so why would you have a kid eat special, blander food and ruin their palate?
Funny story: The concept of feeding children special, blander food specifically aimed at kids was invented in the US in the 1890s to try to stop masturbation in children in North America (it was thought that spicy food would lead to over-arousal in kids and masturbation), and by now it’s so culturally entrenched most adults in North America genuinely think children can’t handle flavorful food. Which you get disabused of quickly if you travel to Asia and see toddlers snacking down on stinking tofu or szechuan noodles left, right and center, or if you travel to Europe and see a bunch of kids chowing down on liver and other foods that are thought of as “not kid foods” in North America.
Anyway, I’m not a historian but I wouldn’t be surprised if the ultrabland cuisine of a lot of religious conservative circles in the US derives from the same principles.
Which makes sense – I’m talking more North America’s brand of kids menu, which is typically super bland and unhealthy – fries and chicken nuggets, plain hamburger and fries, and plain cheese pizza being the three most common options in Canada on kids menus.
Thanks to you (and to the former poster) for your explanation.
This notion is very alien to me because I can’t even think of McDonalds as a restaurant. They did bargained the right to call themselves restaurant here (in exchange to cash for the FIFA during a world cup) but nobody would call it so, or even say “I go to restaurant” to go there or in diners, joints, or other franchised kinds.
Here the kid menu exist in most fancier restaurants, as the country relies much on tourism to pay the bills, and tourists are mostly families, so they can typically have salad + fries&steack/ham or sausages + a small portion ice cream as kid’s menu. It is extremely common that if called ahead, even very fancy places accomodate for kids’ chairs. But of course, couples and friends meetings traditionnally take place around 21PM and later on, so most kids would be already sleeping, so there’s not such a turmoil about having both noisy kids and discreet dates. I don’t think it’s legal to refuse someone with children or ask them to leave because of the noise. If you and your kids don’t behave, you will get cold stares, cold food, slow and bad service as a result, since waiters don’t rely on tips.
Also, until recently, most people only rarely eat out, maybe once every two/three months. The trend is changing, arguably because time for mandatory meal pauses was shortened.
It wasn’t just children; the whole “excitement” thing went along with the Temperance movement in the U.S.and gave us Kellogg’s Corn Flakes and Prohibition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg
Not sadly at all. Joyce is being terrible and absolutely deserves to have this whole thing blow up in her face to teach her that she can’t treat her relationships like she lives in a shitty 90s romcom.
Jacob’s apparent harem anime protagonist grade obliviousness makes me not want to root for him either like I’m not a fan of anyone in this clusterfuck.
So Panel 1 Dorothy is uncertain how to handle new horny Joyce, Joyce is oblivious to what she’s doing herself (it is entirely possible to flirt unconsciously if you’re raised in a super conservative household – when Joyce has tried to flirt before she was way too over-aggressive and scared Joe off, so I honestly don’t think she’s flirting on purpose. Befriending him on purpose, sure, but not flirting). Jacob seemingly oblivious to Joyce and Raidah sniping at each other all meal, and Raidah looking displeased but like she’s trying to hide that.
Panel 2, Jacob is trying to joke with Raidah … looking to relieve tension? Maybe he wasn’t so oblivious but was just trying to pretend he was so he didn’t have to deal with it. Raidah for her part plays emotional whataboutism. Rather than keep talking about something I find uncomfortable/threatening (Joyce), what about this thing you’re anxious about?
Which brings us to panel 3 – Jacob’s reaction here suggests to me that where he relates to and likes Joyce it’s because she relates to the experience of being crushed under family expectations. He seems to genuinely dread seeing his brother in the same way Joyce dreaded Freshman family weekend. That’s… worrying. Is it just that he feels he can’t match up, or is it that the Golden Boy has a mean streak?
And Raidah twists the knife of his anxiety because… ? I mean, she does seem to be using the tactics of an emotional abuser but why? Usually someone who’s doing that has an aim in mind – whether it’s reminding you of your insecurity so you return to behaving in a subordinate way (my money’s on this – there’s a reason Raidah targeted a younger guy for her ambitions) or if it’s trying to manipulate you into something, there’s an end goal in mind. What’s Raidah’s?
Panel 5 – Transparent dig at Joyce, trying to isolate Jacob (or at least make him feel uncomfortable about bringing her up around Joyce). Interestingly, Jacob joked like this and pissed Sarah off in so doing a couple weeks ago in-universe. Now that he knows Joyce, he’s also made uncomfortable by Raidah making fun of Joyce’s sheltered upbringing. I like bringing this full circle, really emphasizes how Jacob himself has grown up over the past few weeks – from a guy who’d socially bully a girl he didn’t know to make friends with someone in his class to a guy who recognizes that for what it is and is made uncomfortable by it. You can see that in how he doesn’t continue the joke or bring up another anecdote – instead by the last panel, Jacob is downcast.
Which is right where Raidah seems to want him.
I don’t know whether Raidah and Jacob have an abusive relationship yet but this is getting close – in these panels, we’ve seen Raidah use Jacob’s insecurity to punish him for behavior she doesn’t like, use his insecurity to make him subordinate to her, and tried to isolate him from friendships she doesn’t approve of. It’s troubling.
Like Raidah is a great foil for Dorothy and Joyce, and I enjoy her as a character (unlike Mike) because I see why she does what she does and she seems a believable antagonist. But she’s got some abusive tendencies.
I don’t think you’re reading the last panel right. I think Jacob looks downcast because they’re going to go to an “adult restaurant” (read: and now turn an enjoyable activity into a performative act, draining the fun out of it) instead of somewhere he can feel relaxed in and get something he ACTUALLY likes to eat. I’d love to throw Mike at that dinner.
Yours is certainly a valid interpretation, though.
I find it confusing when someone besides the author of a work asserts that somebody else’s differing view on the motivations of characters in a fictitious world is ‘valid’.
It feels to me like the author knows what is the right interpretation and what isn’t. In an ongoing work like this, we’ll all eventually see what was right. All of the other guesses aren’t the right one.
But I don’t see what makes some guesses more valid than others. Well, OK, if I said Jacob looked really excited in the last panel, that would probably be wrong. Also, if I claimed I thought he was probably just sad because he was realizing that he’d never be able to get Torg’s man love, due to Torg’s undying fascination with Emmi Esk, that wouldn’t be particularly valid.
But to say someone who had the same thought about the emotion behind the expression as you, but had different in-universe explanations for that emotion was or was not valid doesn’t seem like something that makes any sense.
For me, it’s because tone doesn’t convey properly over the internet. I wanted to make sure what I wrote was interpreted as “I think you’re wrong and I think this is the correct interpretation, but I see your conclusion as a possible one” and not “You’re wrong, I’m right, and you’re a moron for thinking like you do.”
There are interpretations where the author would have to be actively misrepresenting things in a frankly stupid way in order to serve a later twist for them to be wrong.
A lot of times, in this context, “valid” just means “plausible.”
Used that way, well…at a given time with the information present, some ideas ARE more plausible than others. Most people wouldn’t call “Raidah’s doing this because she cares about Joyce and wants her to be happy” a valid read of the situation, even though Willis technically could have the story unfold in a way that reveals that to have been her motivation all along.
Joe wasn’t scared off by over aggressive flirting. He was bothered by how fast she wanted to go “romantically” vs how slow she wanted to go physically.
And even that didn’t make him end the date. It was the face punching.
Other than that, which I couldn’t resist commenting about, interesting analysis.
Panel 1 is Dorothy rethinking her post-Walky-breakup plan of having Joyce fill the gaps in her Recreation Quadrant. Repeatedly.
Seriously, isn’t Dorothy the only one in that panel who has been shown to have had sex?
IMHO, a disinterested (not uninterested) observer might just conclude that Raidah and Joyce have a lot more in common than they are dissimilar. And that it was Char who was really nasty to Dina earlier, with Raidah’s insults actually being aimed at Sarah.
So this pretty much confirms that Raidah is with Jacob because of his connections, at least for me. I’ve suspected as much for a while but this pretty much cements it in my eyes. (Either that or she wants to use Jacob to get close to his brother and then get with the brother instead, but I feel like that’s less likely.)
Almost every time we’ve seen the two of them together, something about his brother gets brought up. We’ve also seen her mention how important it is to have connections with the lawyer’s world, or at least she’s implied it in my opinion.
Her friend group with Dana consisted of multiple people who had lawyers in the family, she’s brought up the fact that her father is a lawyer, she’s dating a guy with an apparently famous lawyer brother…with whom she is hoping for the best possible first impression. That doesn’t sound to me like “I want your family to like me” so much as “I want a famous lawyer to like me.” Although I guess it could be both.
Granted, it is possible for her to ACTUALLY LIKE Jacob and that she would still be with him regardless of his brother’s status… But I’m not seeing that as very likely.
I hope Jacob realizes this. I kind of hope she’ll be more obvious than she realizes about her intentions when she meets him.
That might be it, or she might just be bringing him up as emotional leverage on Jacob. “You need to live up to the expectations of the brother you admire so much, so you better choose me, the future-lawyer as a partner, rather than a less ambitious or financially successful teacher.”
She said as much in the past. Though, these motivations are far from mutually exclusive.
If I were trying not to overthink this, I’d say that Joyce isn’t trying to break up Jacob and Raidah anymore because she doesn’t like that idea, but she is also not terribly self-aware. And that despite their differences she and Jacob actually enjoy each other’s company, and that matters a lot, and that Raidah hasn’t cracked that code yet.
I think you’re either giving Joyce too much credit (to think she wouldn’t try to steal someone else’s man) or too little credit (to think she isn’t aware of what she’s doing).
I think, in context, that an “adult restaurant” is one which assumes that (a) you want your food to taste like something other than corn syrup and (b) you can be trusted not to smash most of the dishes.
Remember – lawyers. Think fancy place with a culinary school trained chef, extensive wine list, many courses and small portions. Oh, and unidentifiable silverware.
Usually by ‘adult’ someone like Raidah means ‘so fancy that people with food sensitivities/allergies/autism won’t be able to eat there and there will be nothing suitable for a kid’s typical palate (some kids like complex foods, but a lot are overstimulated by them until they get older)’.
By ‘kid’ they usually mean it is usually designed around families and is easily adjustable for people with sensitivities and likely has specific kid options too.
I feel like the question right now is whether Jacob is too worried about his brother’s visit now to even notice that Raidah is shit-talking his friend.
An old CS Lewis line which seems appropriate in regards to this scene:
“Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence…When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
My second-favourite reworking of “When I became a man…”
My favourite is Sir Terry Pratchett’s “when I became a man I put away childish things because. wow, then I could afford much *better* childish things!” Ethan knows what I’m talking about.
Raidah can’t be that clueless, can she? Is she an only child or something? Obviously anyone with an older sibling who can Do No Wrong has insecurities about not measuring up; sometimes that’s the key source of their insecurities.
And Jacob has self-esteem issues, even if he hides them well. I have no strong shipping feelings one way or the other, but I do believe that a SO who makes you feel *more* insecure or reinforces comparing you to the people you judge yourself so harshly against is probably not the best for you.
This comic is the first time I realized people might genuinely do this out of cluelessness rather than intentionally trying to put you down to build themselves up. Because I get the vibe that Raidah actually has good self-esteem herself, and doesn’t seem to be wanting to tear down Jacob to control him. It literally doesn’t occur to her that this is not a great thing to say.
Definitely seems to me she’s doing to control him – or more accurately to make herself look better as someone his brother would approve of than Joyce would be.
Whether she’s thinking of that as actually tearing at his self-esteem or not is more difficult.
I interpreted that to mean, first time to meet as a “power” couple. I am wondering however, if Raidah might be using Jacob to try and land successful big brother for herself.
You know, even disregarding the Joyce situation, Raidah is an awful person who has yet to show a single redeeming character trait. Seriously.
She walked up to Sarah unprovoked twice to harass her in her introductory scenes. She thought it was okay to be condescending and infantalizing as all hell to Dina so long as she didn’t use ableist slurs (and spare me the whataboutism that other characters did the same, it wasn’t okay for them to do it and it wasn’t okay for her). She’s an elitist snob. She’s either deliberately manipulating Jacob via his insecurities about his brother, or she’s so obsessed with Harrison and her ability to network through him that she doesn’t even notice Jacob’s discomfort, and neither is a good look.
What a miserable person. I hope Jacob gets far, far away sooner rather than later.
Gravatars are based off the email you put in, thankfully its case sensitive, so just change the capitalisation of letters until you get the one you want
She does have a few good character traits, they just don’t make up for her bad ones remotely. For instance; she is polite, good at carrying conversations, charismatic, patient, and she will call out her friends on their prejudice (while she is still ableist, she did call out a friend who was being more obviously so). Like, it makes sense why some people are friends with her in comic and why Jacob was initially drawn to her as she does outwardly have good traits towards people she likes, and has been understanding towards Jacob in ways he has found other girls aren’t always.
But when you’re a reader like us you can go ‘holy hell Raidah’ because of her classism, ableism and overly vindictive and petty nature.
There seems to be a few disparaging remarks about Raidah talking about adult restaurants but consider the upside which is no screaming or running around kids to deal with
Except she’s not praising “adult” restaurants because she doesn’t want to be around screaming children. She’s saying that to dis Joyce, trying to get Jacob to dismiss her as immature and childish.
She’s right, Joyce *is* immature and childish in many ways. But she’s also kind and generous, whereas Raidah is showing she’s not a nice person. Thing is, Joyce can grow up…
As someone who had to deal with very picky younger siblings for a lot of my life, I get a bit of what Raidah’s saying, except that she’s saying it to make Joyce look bad and in such a rude way in general. Like. It’s pizza, Raidah, everyone, including adults that aren’t snooty assholes, like pizzas (and subs).
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Jacob was jonesin’ for those not-spicy chicken doobers tho
I think he’s just tired of an overly complicated vinegar flavored meal he’s been working on for… how long have he and Raidah been together? Something tells me he wants something light fluffy and sweet instead. Y’know, not too complicated.
Ah well, he should make up his mind about what he wants to eat and where he wants to eat it before he ends up mixing up his meals and getting indigestion.
I know you’re talking about relationships but as a cook, if your meal doesn’t taste proper you do it OVER AND OVER UNTIL IT IS RIGHT OR ALL YOUR DISHES ARE BROKEN IN RAGE
As a poor person, you eat that first meal, no matter how messed up it is, and you’re grateful just to have something to eat at all. And then you think about people throwing away perfectly good food because it’s “not proper”, and your eye does.. a thing.
Who says I throw away the food?
So, after months of some boutique micro-batch spicy Worchestershire sauce, he’s hankerin’ for some sweet Heinz?
(Joyce got dat Heinz goin on)
Joyce would have a honey sauce, and I’m sure Jacob would be interested in Joyce’s bee-Heinz.
underappreciated wordplay tbh
Of course, the notion that the alternate menu item in this case is ‘not too complicated’ is an interesting one. I mean, Joyce is an absolute seven-layer dip.
With all the ingredients in their own separate bowls
And now I’m hungry for dip.. :X
The first thing that popped into my head when i read “light fluffy and sweet” was the lyrics from the bloodhound gang song and somehow, it still fit with what i think Jacob was thinking in a way.
Aaaaaaand Anxiety!
Whoof. Sorry, Jacob.
I think the problem here is that Jacob has spent so much time trying to fill his brothers shoes do to the high expectations people have for him that he seems a bit depressed over things being all work and no play.
Raidah passive aggressively mocks Joyce for being childish and care free but I think Jacob’s see’s that and wishes he could have a bit that free spirited morale in his life. It’s probably why he likes hanging out with Joyce.
Yeah, it seem Jacob WANTS to be childish, as in having fun and be care-free and not worry too much about this or that or how other people see him.
What happened to that sushi joint the gang took Becky to?
Galasso defeated them, as he shall all restaurants! In the end, there will be only Galasso’s!
(And Taco Bell, according to Demolition Man)
Or a combination of Pizza Hut and Taco Bell.
Ah yes demolition man good times….
Dang now i wanna see Wesley Snipes and Sylvester Stallone show up and Galasso and just have a random cage fight…
As long as Sly gets to yell “PHOENIX!!” a few times!
Nah, all three huddled in confused conversation on how exactly does one use The Three Shells.
I’m not sure we saw the same movie.
They *called* it Taco Bell, but it looked all Galasso’s to me.
I thought Galasso’s served Shushi, too?
his signature Indiana Rolls, filled with Arby’s
Yessss, crapping on your boyfriend’s friends. That’s productive. And clever. And going to do exactly what you want it to do.
Yeah, that’s why I don’t get some of the comments about “having morals” about breaking these two up. Raidah’s well on her way to getting the job done on her own.
That’d be Jacob’s choice (or hers, if it comes to that). It shouldn’t be anyone else’s.
Pair the Spares!
Jacob runs into Walky and it’s love at first sight, thus solving both their relationship problems.
C’mon, Doctor. Don’t pull another End of Time Part 2 and pair off the two (of four who I can remember) black people on the cast because you think it’s better if you get to snog the blonde teenagers.
martha was one of the best companions regardless btw planting my flag on this hill
Definitely the best one of the RTD era.
RTD had some weird ideas about tying up loose ends, didn’t he? Have two characters who barely ever interacted get married offscreen, visit the descendant of someone he cared about, not the person themselves, and help Captain Jack get laid (as if he’s ever had difficulty with that).
Moffat’s run may have been spotty in parts, but at least he knew how to say goodbye; a short and sweet scene where the Old Doctor addresses the New Doctor, which doubles as the Old Actor speaking to the New Actor and the Old Writer giving notes to the New Writer.
RTD?
Russel T. Davis, the showrunner for Doctor Who during the 9th and 10 Doctor runs.
Unless Joyce straight up murders Raidah, it will be his choice.
Now I’m imagining Joyce as a Yandere, and it’s creepy.
She’s got the smile for it.
Um, I’m pretty sure that Joyce was a text-book Yandere back in Roomies (less so in It’s Walky – the memory wipe helped). No matter what the recent video game might suggest, most Yandere don’t actually hurt anyone physically.
Thanks for reminding me of that borderline vaporware travesty and it’s scumbag creator.
*its, you fucking reprobate
… wait, where did that come from?
What has the creator done?
I believe Delicious Taffy is talking about Yandere Simulator, a game stuck in development hell (and yes, it’s exactly what it says on the tin) whose creator, YandereDev, is indeed a scumbag.
Are you saying that they’re a scumbag for making the game, or is there something else going on, too?
There’s a lot going on with him, from what I’ve heard. He’s a control freak, can’t accept criticism, tells his fans to kill themselves on livestreams (and a good portion of them are underage), steals assets for his game, ‘hires’ people to work on his game but never actually pays them, among other things. I’m probably not the best person to ask this to, though, since I only found out about his existence last month and I haven’t been following this since.
To stay on topic with DoA: I support the idea of Jacob getting a clue and ditching both Raidah and Joyce.
Exactly. She’s just putting herself out there. No one’s forcing Jacob to do anything.
*beaten by drs, who put it better than I did anyway.
And his fault if he ends up as Raidah’s means to an end at his expense because he can’t see a red flag or two….How deep in their relationship were they in before Raidah found out about his brother?
How would it possibly be anyone else’s choice? Joyce can’t actually break them up.
And seems to me that all she’s really doing is putting herself out there. She’s being herself, or a more confident version of herself than we’re used to. Her flirting with Jacob is largely them having chemistry, which is why Sarah thought aiming Joyce at Jacob had a chance in the first place. It’s up to Jacob to sit back and enjoy the show, shut her down, or decide that hey, a two month freshman relationship isn’t a romance for the ages.
This.^
Joyce has explicitly stated previously that she wants to break up Jacob and Raidah so that Jacob will be with someone that Joyce approves of, Sarah initially and her now.
I don’t fucking care how good or bad Raidah is. She can be Queen Bongo of the Universe for all it matters, because it’s not about her, it’s about Jacob.
The moment that Joyce started on this road, everything about it became tainted. The moment she went from “I’m just being nice to this guy that’s nice and friendly” to “…I want to be with him and I don’t care what his actual girlfriend has to say about it”, she crossed a line.
It’s little more than Nice Guy Entitlement, and it frankly sickens me.
Didn’t you know Nice Guy Entitlement is okay though when it’s coming from the pretty white girl.
Well, she was never really “I’m just being nice to this guy that’s nice and friendly”. She went straight from “Jacob would be good for Sarah” to “I’m going to help Sarah break them up so she can get together with him” to “I’m going to break them up for me.” There was never a point without the ulterior motives.
And I don’t really think it’s got much to do with Nice Guy Entitlement. It’s shitty, but it’s a different kind of shitty.
Part of what’s throwing some people, is the distinction between Joyce’s intent and her actual actions. Ignoring intent, we haven’t seen her do anything that bad – she’s just been hanging out with him in a friendly way, right? She hasn’t bad-mouthed Raidah. She hasn’t made an open move on him. She’s just there, being attractive.
And yet we know her intent. We know she wants to get him to fall for her and leave Raidah, which casts everything she does in a different light for me.
I think that’s partly where the difference from the Nice Guy (Nice Gal?) comes in – the stereotypical nice gal would be stewing over how bad the other partner was, but would be trying to position herself to be there for the inevitable breakup or passive-aggressively tearing the other down, rather than trying to win him with her own charms.
I mean that’s kinda exactly what Nice Guys do: passively exist in the object of their affection’s orbit in the guise of a friend without stating their romantic intentions so they can’t be clearly shot down, it just happens she started out acting as like a Nice Guy by proxy for Sarah. Like, Joyce is too generally good natured for the kind of festering resentment you often see in Nice Guys but her playbook isn’t far off and her behaviour is still rooted in a belief that she is entitled to insert herself into Jacob’s love life because she knows what’s best for him. The difference is semantics.
Perhaps. I think it’s different.
I suspect Joyce is already less passive and is probably going to become less so.
She’s really more the “Other Woman” stereotype here. She’s actively trying to seduce him (in her own way), not just waiting for them to break up.
And frankly, without the festering resentment and without the “I did stuff for you, you owe me dates and sex”, I’m not actually sure what’s left that’s wrong with the Nice Guy. At that point, we’re really left with “I’ve got a crush on you that I haven’t told you about since you’re dating someone else, but that’s okay. I’m cool with it.” We’ve pretty much all been there.
So… Thought Crime? (Namely ” I want this person to choose me over someone else”) I guess I just never saw dating as a inviolate bond, so I don’t see a problem unless lies are involved
I feel like a lot of the arguments over this stem from a disagreement over how serious “dating” should be.
You can’t ever find out where the dating is going to go if other people are constantly moving in on you. And it might be useful to practice actual monogamy so you know if you can handle it in an actual full-blown commitment.
Some people here may be poly and may say “uh what about poly people” but I’ve seen how summayou folks handle that stuff and let me say I’m mostly not impressed. Plus I’m not poly so I can’t speak from that perspective, not that there is ONE poly perspective anyway. If there’s anything you can say for mono people, it’s that they put more of an emphasis on boundaries and clean breaks. Ideally. In theory that means less emotional/psychic garbage to have to drag around.
“You can’t ever find out where the dating is going to go if other people are constantly moving in on you”
Sounds like we’re attributing someone’s inability to handle their own relationship decisions on other people. I mean, are we really taking the “it’s their fault for being interested in me, I couldn’t help myself” angle? Good grief.
Not sure how Poly came into this, but Poly is just monogamy with more people and a theoretically, potentially better end result. In short, the support structure and bonds formed could be that much more significant and reliable.. but imagine the difficulty of having a functional monogamous relationship, and then EXPONENTIALLY multiply it. It’s obvious that most poly relationships wouldn’t work out- though that doesn’t mean it isn’t something to aim for (if that’s an acceptable relationship structure for you), since the potential end result could be massively beneficial.
But, anyway. Poly has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, not only because it never came up in any way, but also because Poly (even just the less idealized, sexualized interpretation) requires openness (or it’s not poly, it’s cheating), meaning it can’t have been implied in any way.
In any case, if you’re that easily lured away from your current partner then, 1: You shouldn’t in a relationship with them, since it’s clear your relationship wasn’t strong and 2: You shouldn’t be in a relationship with anyone, since you lack proper respect for your partners. That has nothing to do with anyone hitting on you, regardless of how sultry and seductive they may be going about it [assuming they’re not actively deceiving you about anything, or manipulating you against your partner, or so forth]. It certainly doesn’t apply to respectful flirting, or to open admissions of interest. You have the ability to make a mature decision about your relationship progressions- casting aside that responsibility to put blame on others makes it pretty readily evident that the individual in question isn’t mature enough to properly handle a relationship of any sort.
And there we loop back to “even a basic monogamous relationship is difficult.. and requires effort“.
Final note, it’s “psychological”. Psychic is a bit different. 🙂
There’s a tl;dr version by Eolirin just below 😛
Joyce owes Raidah nothing. We’re not talking about a marriage, we’re talking about a college freshman relationship that’s maybe a month old.
She owes Jacob not messing with his relationship.
Because you know, she likes Jacob and should respect his choices.
The thing is, she’s not. Jacob’s choices are his own, and every single person making the whole Joyce is being awful in having the intent of winning Jacob over and getting him to break up with Raidah seem to completely ignore that Jacob has actual agency and isn’t beholden in any way to Joyce’s whims, desires or intent.
Joyce can’t break them up unless Jacob wants them to break up, and the sorts of things that would actually cross a line, like spreading vicious rumors about Raidah, trying to create tension between her and Jacob’s other friends, or attempting to sabotage Raidah academically or socially isn’t happening.
Joyce is competing, and isn’t doing so in an underhanded way. Jacob isn’t being denied agency.
^ Yes.
Yeah, we’ve all been over this any number of times since this storyline started.
You’re right. He still gets choices. She’s not actually taking his free will away. Nonetheless I think it’s uncool to try to do so, even not using the nastiest of methods.
They’re dating. Don’t hit on him. If they break up someday, ask him out then.
But I’m sure we’re going to disagree on this and I don’t really have anything further to say.
It is still rude to presume to tell someone, directly or indirectly, that you know better than they do about whom they should be dating. Let’s talk about agency here, by all means. *Joyce* has agency. And maybe she shouldn’t be abusing it.
I still like the lady, don’t get me wrong. I just think she needs to chill and let things run their course. Raidah’s not what you’d call a terribly nice person, and Jacob’s going to figure that out eventually when his hormones stop getting in the way.
you respect someone’s right to make their own decisions, and joyce neither has the privileged position nor has demonstrated the inclination to violate THAT rule. if anything, she is *presenting* him with choices to make, and you’re calling for her to *restrict* his options to choose among.
respecting someone’s decisions? like, each and every one? not only do you not owe anybody that, it’s not even possible to deliver that. if you ever go a *week* without making a forehead-slappingly stupid decision, let me know how it feels. ive certainly never done it, never seen it done.
Nah, I’ve done plenty of dumb stuff.
But I don’t hit on people in relationships.
He doesn’t need her help to make any decisions about whom he’s dating. He’s perfectly capable of dumping Raidah on his own and then going and chatting Joyce up if that is what he wants to do. The fact he is not doing it tells me that either he’s not interested in Joyce or that the interest only goes as far as theory and not far enough for him to want to act on it. Either way, he’s where he wants to be. It’s dating, not stealing plutonium for a flux capacitor from Middle Eastern terrorists. There are far worse decisions a person can make.
He still barely knows Joyce, and he’s still in a relationship with Raidah, which he needs to come to conclusions about. Are you forgetting the pacing of the comic’s timeline, or? ’cause I can’t figure out why you seem to be arguing against the very point you made just above. 😛
“Hi, let’s be friends. And I’ll be flirty, because I’m interested in you. If you don’t reciprocate that interest, that’s fine. But, rather than confront you about your bad relationship, let me passively offer you an alternative, for comparison. If you don’t accept that- agan, that’s fine, I won’t push it.” is a far cry different from the sort of seduction and manipulation and so forth that people are attributing to Joyce.
I mean, gods. Joyce isn’t acting any differently than some people do naturally, and such people (excluding those who ARE actively flirting with everyone) have it well-established that they’re not intentionally trying to “put moves” on someone. It’s not like Joyce is there complimenting Jacob’s biceps and talking about how good his abs must make him in bed. There’s nothing remotely improper going on.
And, as you say- he’s where he wants to be, and noone is trying to coerce him out of that. Name one clear thing that Joyce has done that remotely crosses a line, outside of the scope of “thought crimes”?
Did common human decency and lack of malice stop existing?
They’ll just get in the way, for, oh Earth and Sea, Sarah and Raidah hath found themselves their next Dana!!!!! Zounds and Gadzooks!
Yeah, but how many times does something like this snowball and then you find out you’ve been married to the wrong person for 5 years?
It’s one thing to talk to a friend, tell them you don’t think a relationship is good for them. It’s another to say “therefore you should be with me” or try to *make* them end a relationship.
I suspect it is going to do what she expects it to do. At least in the short term. (Eventually I expect she’ll escalate far enough to piss Jacob off, but we’re nowhere near that yet.)
This is relatively subtle “crapping on your boyfriend’s friends”. Just reminding him of things they’ve joked about and how much better of an impression she’ll make than that kid would.
Remember that Jacob and Sarah first bonded over silly Joyce stories. If you’re looking at Raidah through somewhat rose-tinted glasses (and are completely oblivious to the tension), this doesn’t look that different.
jacob’s totally not happy in the relationship
to be like the big people and walk in great strides. ;-;
(I am so dang small you guys)
How’s the weather?
Heh. I’m pretty tall, and your avatar’s expression is exactly the expression I get whenever anyone asks me “How’s the weather up there?”
I once had a coworker who thought it was abso-fraggin’-lutely hilarious every single time he asked me that, which was at least once a day. >_<
…”your avatar’s expression is exactly the expression I get whenever anyone asks me ‘How’s the weather up there?'”
That but looking downwards, I suppose.
I’ve found an excellent response that stops them asking again is to say it’s raining, and then spit on them. 😛
That is when you piss on him and tell him it is raining.
You’d have to be pretty darn tall for that to come from above them (as per rain), which is kinda the point with spitting. 😛
I’m pretty sure Jacob’s well past the point of first impressions with his own brother…
yeah, but first “couple” impression… I blew that once by having my bf over at my parents’ house when I didn’t realize my mother was still home (and not dressed)
I can see where that would make an impression.
Still probably better than your bf not dressed.
To be fair, I might have a sister I’ve never met.
I feel like that’s not Jacob’s situation, but wouldn’t that be interesting.
I’d like to picture that the brother is really chill and nice (like Jacob), and the need to dress up is a combination of couple impression (because yeah that’s a thing) and, moreover, that Raidah’s been really pushing this narrative that Jacob could never live up to his brother.
“….that Raidah’s been really pushing this narrative that Jacob could never live up to his brother.”
That sounds a lot more like clear-cut outright emotional abuse than anything I think I’ve seen from her before. It would completely change how we view the entire relationship.
I don’t think she’s actually been doing that. I think she’s been using his need to live up to his brother to manipulate him – and we’ve been seeing that for quite awhile now.
But it’s not that he can’t, it’s that he needs to do what she wants so that he will.
Raidah, your shittiness is showing.
This strip contains a veritable smorgasbord of expressions from Jacob, and virtually all of them are some flavor of negative.
Maybe wanna pay attention to your partner’s feelings, Raidah?
She is paying attention. She could hardly manipulate him so well if she wasn’t, could she?
Fair point. I should separate paying attention to one’s partner’s feelings and *caring* about them, in this case.
Seems to me the point is that she’s paying attention to his feelings quite well.
This is clearly NOT what’s happening, but my first impression of panel five was that Jacob was calling Raidah a bongo.
This confirms it, Jake has felt his brother’s presence for YEARS and it’s finally starting to wear thin.
Anyone else noticing this strange inferiority complex that Jacob seems to have with his brother?
Well, at least Jacob seems to be noticing Raidah’s pettiness.
Kind of mean that she’s trying to use his feelings with his brother against him.
Jacob ends up working at a toy store in Shortpacked! as well as suffering serious substance abuse problems as well as sex addiction. He also becomes a hoarder. Jacob is incredibly well put together here but the implications are he can and does have the potential for a nervous breakdown.
Perhaps brought on by family pressure.
I think it would be hilarious to see Raidah’s reaction if Jacob’s brother looked less like him and more like Jaleel White as Urkel. He’s still as accomplished as we’ve been told he is, but we all know she’ll just mentally check out right then and there.
Based on what?
Based on his constant complimenting of his brother, him stating that his brother is just so amazing, constantly pushing himself to meet that standard, and now this response – the “Well, I better go iron every shirt that I own.” They’re talking about making a good first impression in the same way that an interviewee would do when meeting with a potential employer.
Every single time that Jacob mentions his brother, it’s to strongly praise him and say -nothing- else, and when Raidah talks about Jacob’s brother to Jacob, it’s usually to push him to study harder or be more impressive to measure up to his brother. It seems like Jacob’s brother is one of, if not -the- defining motivations in his life.
You can’t really hero-worship someone without also defining yourself as inferior.
But what makes you think Raidah would immediately check out if he wasn’t handsome? Raidah is rude, but she isn’t stupid or shallow.
Are we sure about the shallow part?
Rather, her shallowness relates to things such as disdain for low-income people, complex emotional decisions, innocence, etc. It doesn’t seem to relate to things that reflect her upper-class mentality. As such, physical appearance probably wouldn’t be as important to her as someone’s employment accomplishments and social standing.
Okay let’s turn it around then. What if she gets a serious case of foot-in-mouth after learning the scrawny nerd she just dismissed or condescended to is Jacob’s perfect brother?
Come to think of it, for Raidah that’s the more likely scenario anyway. Remember how she treated Dina in the mall? First impressions are everything with her.
I must have missed a lot of strips, because I didn’t even know he *had* a brother.
Honestly, this is a bridge too far. She is very much class- and status-obsessed, that much is obvious. So long as Jacob’s brother fulfills that particular agenda, then she’ll still be focused on him.
*plays the opening to “Iron Man” on the hacked P.A. speakers*
… so is he in the relationship for the same reasons she is?
No, I don’t think he’s looking for an in to network with his brother.
I can see why Raidah’s not worried about Joyce’s flirtiness breaking up her and Jacob. Judging by that last panel, her own attitude is already doing the job nicely.
I feel like I have this reaction to a lot of DoA strips, but:
Interesting, intrigued how this is going to play out.
The frown in the last panel, for instance. Anxiety about his brother, no doubt, but also in reaction to the Raidah comment? Maybe he doesn’t like having to posture and be so grown up, maybe he is reacting to her dig at Joyce.
Jacob was at his most happy when he was a complete mess in Shortpacked.
Oof, yeah, it looks like Raidah’s point’s been made (that Joyce is not the kind of girl who’s going to get Jacob where he wants to go).
And I think Raidah seems a little nervous about meeting Jacob’s brother, who’s a bigshot in her chosen profession and someone Jacob looks up to a lot, but I think, sadly, her talking about this is making him feel worse.
That’s a very kind interpretation of what Raidah is doing here.
To me, it reads as Raidah manipulating Jacob with his anxieties to meet his brothers standards while belittling Joyce in an incredibly condescending way.
If Jacob doesn’t realize that’s asshole behavior, he’s a much less nice guy than I thought.
Third time she’s compared Jacob to his brother, and he clearly has a complex about it already. She’s doing it on purpose.
I thought about that too but I think Raidah looks just a touch too nervous about meeting him this time for this instance to be intentional.
She just brought up five minutes ago and this is the .
I think she’s gone waaaaaay past bringing this up accidentally.
Yes, she did. I’m saying that THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE doesn’t seem like her intentionally poking the anxiety button to me.
I think it still is. She jumps right in with it to keep from going on further about the good parts of the conversation with Joyce, then doubles down with the “first impressions” and kid’s menu stuff.
None of which means she might not also be nervous about the meeting, but it really seems intentional here.
I think Raidah looks a just a bit too nervous about what she should wear and first impressions for this one to intentional. She seems a little intimidated by meeting him too. I think the fact he’s usually pretty casual or happy to talk about his brother (he showed no signs of discomfort earlier when talking about him) I’d say it’s easier for her to miss this time.
Although, yeah, definitely doesn’t miss the chance to take a shot at Joyce.
Not everyone gets passive-agressiveness and stuff like that, and it doesn’t make them a bad person. Just, naive or evident that they don’t have great social awareness.
Is that really passive aggressiveness, though? I thought passive aggressiveness was all about having uncommunicated expectations and then holding the other person accountable for having not met them. I’m not saying Raidah isn’t doing something wrong, but it feels like it would have a different term.
Regardless, how one chooses to react in the moment when one sees that ones associates are less than perfect being is not the entire being of their character. Jacob could be realizing exactly what’s going on with Joyce, Raidah, Sarah, Walky, Ethan, Danny, Joe, Mike, and so forth, and he’s just not overtly reacting because things are complicated and he’s not making a snap decision just to meet some anxious fan’s schedule to end the series early in one nice, neat package.
I understand there’s a lot more going on in this strip than Jacob’s love life, but the buffer extends all the way to October! None of the shit in this shit is resolving quickly, and that takes thoughtful or oblivious characters like Jacob and Becky. (Um, no, that’s not a ship. Although I did meet a Gay/Lesbian couple at a party once who were deeply in love and handled their stupidly incompatible sexual needs by double-dating.)
I think the scene right after Raidah showed up where she and Joyce glared at each other and we saw Jacob’s thought ballooon of “pizza” was a pretty clear indication that Jacob was still oblivious. It’s possible he’s clued in since then, but there’s been no indication.
Unlike, for example, Dorothy where we were given reaction shots to establish she knew what was going on even before Raidah showed up, even though she didn’t directly say anything about it until last strip to Becky.
Willis is actually pretty good at conveying this stuff even if Jacob was trying to avoid a snap decision.
“and stuff”. English is not my first language, and I don’t know a different term for this.
Hear that odd noise?
That’s the sound of Raidah choking on her own foot.
You know what, I take it back, Jacob dump the bongo, go pick Joyce up in one arm, deny her those extra steps so you can win and then talk about the “picture bible” on the way back to campus. Fuck you Raidah, maybe recognize the clear anxiety your boyfriend is showing and care more about that than impressing his brother. Your networking ability is probably very impressive, but your social ability is as repulsive as the rest of your behavior.
Huh, apparently a certain key word get replaced with bongo. Neat. 😛
People are so used to that word filter here that they’ll say it on purpose, which is what I thought you were doing.
I never noticed it before now, I don’t even know what words are filtered out. But that does explain some of the random words in other comments I’ve seen before.
Honestly I’ve caught myself actually saying “bongo” IRL at times.
I’ve been trying to spread it.
It’s creeping into my vocabulary, too! As is “son of a biscuit”, but that’s got nothing to do with DoA.
Well, I guess it replaces the same word.
Oh, she recognizes his anxiety, alright. She’s actively *cultivating* that shit.
If that is the case that is even more disgusting, it is one thing to simply ignore or not notice when your partner needs your help, it is another to actively make their problems worse because you think it benefits you. I want to try and give Raidah some credit that she isn’t trying to induce anxiety in Jacob but at this point I wouldn’t be surprised.
No, it’s definitely deliberate. That’s the third time she’s brought up Jacob’s brother *specifically* in the context of Jacob-You’ll-Never-Live-Up-To-Him, which seems to be a real issue for Jacob.
Also somehow I replied to your wrong comment below, derp.
It’s cool, I commented more than usual this evening so it happens. And yeah I hadn’t noticed that but that really sucks. :/ Hopefully there’s a great comeuppance for Raidah and a happy ending(or happy middle-of-the-story as it is) for Jacob.
OK, Raidah seriously needs to calm the fuck down with the whole “being adult” thing. She’s barely any older than Joyce and she certainly isn’t acting her age to begin with.
You’d be surprised at how quickly a superiority complex makes people feel more mature than they actually are. Though I guess that is exactly part of what a superiority complex does.
No, it’s definitely deliberate. That’s the second time she’s brought up Jacob’s brother *specifically* in the context of Jacob-You’ll-Never-Live-Up-To-Him, which seems to be a real issue for Jacob.
Scratch that, THIRD time, twice during this diner adventure and once before when she shot him down.
Well, that’s specifically about the “kids menu” and everyone makes fun of Joyce only being able to eat off the kids menu.
Raidah is of course weaponizing it.
Is Sarah really trying to kill a relationship if seems like it’s this painful already, or is she putting it out of its misery?
…Wait.
Chicken fingers are supposed to be spicy?
…
My whole life has been built a lie.
built upon*
dagnabit
Some people consider black pepper spicy.
My boyfriend’s dad is one of them.
Black pepper can be spicy. You’ve just got to use a lot of it.
He does not. 😛
Less is more, Raidah.
A place with no ketchup?!
Phillistines!
Raidah is reminding me of how my sister describes her boyfriend’s brother. Someone who acts superior and belittles everything that isn’t up to “adult” standards.
Adding on… if raidah is so impressed by Jacob’s brother’s standards than just date him.. i dont mean like literally but it feels like she’s just assuming since his brother has x standards than so does jacob.
Except Jacob DOES have high standards. Jacob wants to have the same ambitious lawyer life as his brother because he wants to be like him and make his family proud. That’s a lot of pressure and Raidah isn’t helping in this instance, but he DOES want the ‘glamorous life’ as Raidah called it.
My “read” on Harrison here for some reason was that Jacob’s blown away by his achievements – his brother has made the world tangibly better. It’s not necessarily being rich or high profile that he thinks is amazing – although thos strip indicates that these things may make him nervous around him.
However, this interpretation may be coloured by my opinion of Jacob…
Earlier than that strip, Raidah mentions that Jacob really wants to be like his brother and make his family proud.
But Raidah sees that as high profile, rich etc. I think Jacob may see it as making a difference…
I think you’re probably right about that. Though the two are probably merged together to some extent.
My theory now is that when Harrison does show up, he’ll have gotten Jacob’s stories confused and think he’s dating “that awesome girl who punched out a kidnapper”.
Don’t go selling Jacob’s girlfriend short; she’s *also* the girl who fought off the date rapist scum who was slipping stuff into innocent women’s drinks at parties while talking up his preacher heritage, *and* she was prominently campaigning for Harrison’s favorite congresswoman. Plus, while Jacob hasn’t put two and two together yet, Jacob’s girlfriend is also Amazi-Girl.
Fuck i would love that
I think Jacob wants all three. And that’s not a bad thing, but it does mean he probably doesn’t want someone intent on a simple life that’s romance based.
Oh god… one of those people who share memes about how “If you play video games, read comics, or watch anime then you are a child and need to grow up”
I really hate those people and not just because I do all three of those things
If the next strip is not Jacob calling Raidah on her shit, I am going to be sorely disappointed in Jacob.
Prepare to be disappointed because that’s not happening anytime soon.
He’s either not clued in or doesn’t care about her various issues.
I don’t think either of those are true. Jacob is very perceptive, and he seems very empathetic. However it seems he would probably avoid confrontation until it is absolutely necessary. I would guess the she is beginning to push her luck but he just isn’t ready to call her out on it just yet
Jacob doesn’t seem that perceptive – or at least he’s got a huge blind spot.
As far as anyone can tell, he’s completely missed Joyce’s huge crush on him and the tension between her and Raidah.
Right – because deferring judgement to handle a complicated situation later is never a thing.
Or maybe we don’t know things about the characters that they don’t tell us.
Except the complication only comes into play if he likes both women romantically, which hasn’t been shown to be the case. He hasn’t even been shown to be aware of Joyce liking him. Without that feeling towards Joyce, the situation is merely a lunch with his friends and girlfriend.
So if we assume he’s oblivious, then there is no complication.
If we assume he’s aware and just not showing us his actual thoughts and feelings, then that allows the possibility that he’s more in line with Raidah’s attitude then most of us would like to assume and that similarly hasn’t been shown to us.
Wow, you’re world is certainly a lot simpler than mine.
For me, if I found I was dating someone like Raidah, even without the added complication of a possible other woman interested, exactly how to go about breaking up with Raidah would require a lot of thought. If she really was everything I wanted, apart from the jealousy bit, knowing that she had that jealousy bit might not be enough to make me decide immediately to dump her.
Also, typically, if I did decide to dump her, I’d most likely do it via getting her to dump me for somebody else instead, because I’m scum like that. Not that I would deliberately do this, mind you; it’s just how it’s worked out two times out of three. Probably a better way to put is, “I’d take long enough to figure out how to dump her that she’d leave me first”. Admittedly, I never went out with someone as obviously jealous and manipulative as Raidah, so I might have an easier time with just breaking up with her.
I’m straightforward. That way, I don’t have to play games like that.
Leaving that aside, TheJeff was talking about Jacob missing/ignoring Joyce’s feelings for Jacob and her going back and forth with Raidah. Thus, your reply about complications would be expected to refer to that, not Jacob’s relationship with Raidah. Which, again, he can just break up with her if her attitude is that big a problem.
Well, from what’s been shown in the comic, Jacob is consciously oblivious but also reacting positively to Joyce’s flirting.
Enough that everybody else in the comic picks up on it.
I wonder if Raidah is going to dump Jacob and start dating his brother.
Honestly with how she’s been mentioning his brother, I’m starting to think she might just be with Jacob so she can go after his brother.
It does sound it! Although if his brother is all that, would he really go for his baby bro’s girl??
Would kinda like to see her hitting on him in front of Jacob, Jacob calling her on it, Raidah responding along rhe lines of “everything’s fair in love and war”, Harrison – unimpressed – reminding her about the Geneva convention, Jacob dumping her, and his brother telling her he doesn’t date petty children.
People who are that duplicitous themselves generally believe that everyone else is, too. That or foolish. Raidah has obviously sorted Jacob’s brother into the former and Joyce into the latter, not realizing that there are people who are perfectly capable of perfidy who resist because it’s ultimately a losing strategy. Jacob is that third category; I’ll be interested to see which one his brother is.
What evidence would she have to think Joyce isn’t capable of perfidy?
Not much, it’s just that she’s sees Joyce’s attempt as clumsy and juvenile and therefore not a threat, and thinks herself superior to Joyce, and so she lumps Joyce with the fools
It’s pretty clear to me that she sees Joyce as a threat, despite her denials. That’s why she raced down to lunch. That’s why she’s playing these games.
I think she basically is dating Jacob because he’s the next best thing to her brother.
Like the time Rachel dated the man named Russ.
I don’t see that at all. The whole point of talking up Harrison is to manipulate Jacob. She’s not just going on about him because she thinks he’s great, but because Jacob does.
Plus Harrison’s likely close to 10 years older than them – out of college + law school + enough experience to play a role on a major case.
I agree with you. I also think people’s dislike of Raidah is causing them to read stuff into her statements that aren’t there. And that isn’t necessary; she’s distasteful enough all on her own.
I’m honestly curious whether he’ll recommend it – whether in anger in a fight down the road or as a sincere suggestion that he thinks is good for her.
YES JACOB
LET THE EPIPHANY FLOW THROUGH YOU
Not a fan of what Joyce is doing but I also really fucking hate Raidah and her stuck-up pretentious ass really doesn’t deserve a complete sweetheart like Jacob. I just hope if he breaks up with her that it’ll be more because he legit realizes she’s pretty awful and not b/c of what Joyce (and previously Sarah) is doing.
I am wondering if part of why he puts up with Raidah is because of his own issues with intimacy. Maybe he feels Raidah is his only chance at a relationship built on something that isn’t sex. When he dumps her I do believe it will be because of Joyce, but it will be because Joyce showed him that there’s something out there better then Raidah
I think he’s just got it in his head that
Dating Someone Like Raidah = Wearing Big-Boy Pants
Basically that this kind of relationship is what you’re Supposed To Do.
And Raidah has been selling this idea every time we’ve seen her, so it makes sense she’d have been the person who snagged him.
I remember in college I had a lot of ideas about What Must Happen In Adulthood. Pursuing those without thinking through the why caused me a lot of grief.
> Not a fan of what Joyce is doing but I also really fucking hate Raidah and her stuck-up pretentious ass
God I know right
These women of color, defending their relationships
So uppity
Way to deliberately misinterpret what somebody said, to make it about something it wasn’t.
Raidah is a pretentious, stuck up ass, independent of her pathetic squabble with Joyce. What that could possibly have to do with Also Becky’s hypothetical views on women of color and the uppity-ness thereof, I haven’t the faintest fucking idea.
Doomska seems to be convinced that the only reason people don’t like Raidah is because she’s not white, and that any criticisms leveled at her character are the product of racism.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Raidah “defending” her relationship, if she truly wanted to do that she could talk to Jacob and explain she feels that Joyce may be trying something underhanded. But Raidah playing on Jacob’s anxieties, using him as a means to get ahead, talking down to anyone that isn’t furthering her goals and not caring about Jacob’s emotions?
All of that is what people are upset by, so don’t assume this has anything to do with the color of Raidah’s skin. Just the color of her heart, and that part of her black and white, since she replaced it with legal documents a long time ago.
“if she truly wanted to do that she could talk to Jacob and explain she feels that Joyce may be trying something underhanded”
Well she could but Jacob has made it quite clear that he doesn’t want a jealous girlfriend, that previous girlfriends have been labelled as jealous
Maybe those girlfriends could see what Jacob is choosing not to see, brought it up with him and they’re now jealous exs
That is a fair point, and that is why I said talk to him not accuse him of doing anything wrong. He clearly doesn’t know that Joyce has any feelings for him, or he hasn’t shown it, so Raidah giving him that heads up and talking to him is perfectly normal. Either way her treatment of Jacob is the main issue here, not her treatment of Joyce. If Raidah wants to do that to Joyce I understand why and Joyce has brought it on herself, Jacob has not done anything wrong here.
I would argue that if she has concerns about one of his friends that are affecting her behaviour towards them, and doesn’t feel able to talk to him about it all (and neither a joking “It’s a good thing I’m not the jealous type: Joyce seems to have a thing for you!” nor a more serious “I can see you don’t see it but I’m pretty sure Joyce has a big crush on you, and I’m worried you’ll break her heart” should come across as jealous, if she’s relaxed, and she was when she spoke to her friends about this) – HE isn’t right for HER. Communication is so important in relationships…
That is basically my take on Jacob. Which is good, because at least it means he’s got one flaw.:)
But of course Raidah’s not going to do that, because manipulative is what she does. We see it retrospectively even in that scene where she talks about how she’s not the jealous type – she’d just ditch him and move on.
Which is clearly not what she’s doing.
To be fair, she said she’d do that if he cheated.
He hadn’t cheated, so it doesn’t apply, and thus she hasn’t contradicted herself.
Not strictly. But definitely by implication.
That little speech certainly didn’t include “Yes, I will get jealous and try to disrupt anyone who does seem to be flirting with you and I won’t trust you enough to talk to you openly about it.”
Oh for fucks sake, I’m so sick of seeing this argument. Nobody hates raidah because she’s a woc. We hate raidah for two reasons stated: she is a stuck up pretentious bongo. Also manipulative, self centered, condescending as *fuck*, and lets not forget how she talked down to Dina like she was a small child *after* finding out she was 18 and calling her mentally challenged. She was hated long before all this relationship stuff happened. In fact, her personality is on par with the “popular rich white girl” villains in shitty high school movies that try to be mean girls. It’s typically seen on white women and guess what? Nobody fucking likes those characters. Thats because tje hate for raidah has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, gender, and everything to do with her shitty personality, which would be hated on white women, absolutely on white men (for some reason that one makes me even angrier). I hate people trying to defend raidah because she is a brown Muslim woman. It’s disgusting and reductive.
Sorry for any typos, my keyboard is fucked up
I really hope Jacob’s expression in the last panel is him starting to realize that Raidah is a jerk.
I am finding it amazing that there are champions of light that can fight through all this dark, deep foreshadowing that Joyce is heading towards a self-earned reckoning to still believe, through sheer willpower, that she’s the good guy here.
You realise that just because someone else is exhibiting poor behavior doesn’t automatically mean your behavior is good, right? Like, yeah, Joyce is being a Not Good (TM) person right now, but Raidah’s not exactly a paragon here. I don’t like what Joyce is doing here, at all, but Raidah’s being very rude and condescending, instead of being forward with Jacob about her concerns.
Neither are being good people but remember that Raidah is there because Joyce is trying to make Jacob and Raidah break up
First it was for Sarah and then for herself so basically, in this instance, Joyce started it and when Raidah appeared Joyce then doubled down
Joyce is more to blame in this particular storyline
Oh yeah definitely, Joyce’s actions right now are worse than Raidah, but I dont see how thats relevant, cause no matter how shitty Joyce is being, or how much to blame she is, in most cases that shouldn’t really determine our criticism of Raidah’s behaviour
Considering we’re talking largely about her behaviour TOWARDS Joyce I think how Joyce is acting towards her is kinda relevant. Like, I’m not getting why Raidah is expected to be remotely civil towards this girl who is actively trying to fuck over her relationship. Yeah, it sucks that her only real option for for actively protecting her relationship from this interloper is veiled barbs to diminish her but Jacob’s made it clear he’s not going to tolerate jealousy even if it’s justified and he’s just too oblivious to see it so she can’t exactly be upfront about it even if she wanted to lest she be labelled crazy and jealous.
I agree that Raidah isn’t under any obligation to be perfectly civil with Joyce, but I don’t think Raidah is as devoid of options as you make it to be. Jacob in this strip doesn’t seem like he won’t tolerate jealousy, he doesn’t say jealousy is a dealbreaker for him and its left ambiguous whether those relationships were broken up by him over their jealousy or them because of jealousy.
Raidah seems to be doing this because she might not trust Jacob enough to confide in him, or because of worry of what he’ll do when confronted by the realization, not because its her only option.
That being said, my original post was about her behaviour in this strip, what with encouraging his anxiety to further her own goals, sorry about the lack of clarity
Well that’s a big ole assumption of her motivations.
@emily
I mean, willis isn’t really giving us anything that hints why she’d do that instead of confide in Jacob, so all we can do is assume
The closest thing I can get as potential proof for my “she’s scared off what Jacob will do if he realizes he likes Joyce” assumption is this strip , where is seems like she’s worried about the possibility of Jacob falling for Joyce if he realizes it, and so it would make sense if she decides to try to keep him from that realization.
Think of it this way: Raidah knows Joyce is trying to fuck over her relationship, but Jacob doesn’t. If she says anything to him, he will likely thinks she’s just another jealous girlfriend because he is oblivious to the situation. So from his perspective, it’s less “she’s making fun of someone who’s trying to wreck our relationship”, more “she’s insulting one of my best friends to both our faces”. To come off that way would not be in raidahs best interest, that’s like a one way ticket to dumpville. In terms of underhandedness, it would probably be better to be completely friendly with Joyce in front of Jacob, then lose the mask when hes out of ear shot. Right now, even though Jacob tends to be oblivious, she’s really pushing her luck, because to him it just looks like she’s poking fun at Joyce because she’s just different from them (Jacob and Raidah). He might think of it as playful banter, but he’s bound to catch on eventually.
The thing I’m running into here is that Jacob sees parts of himself he LIKES in Joyce. Stuff he doesn’t always want to admit he likes, because he thinks Being a Big Boy is very important.
But the result is that snarking on Joyce doesn’t just look like jealousy. A few of those barbs Raidah’s slinging at Joyce are probably stinging Jacob too.
Yeah, and she could do what I said she should be doing: be forward with Jacob about her concerns. Like the mature adult she claims to be. Not being a rude and condescending twat.
I’ve just said above – if things Jacob has said about jealous ex-girlfriends has left her unable to communicate with him about this with him at all – he is not right for her. Because “I know you don’t see it and wouldn’t encourage it if you did, but I’m pretty certain Joyce has a massive crush on you, and this is her way of flirting. I think she’s been pretty sheltered growing up? I know you would feel awful if you accidentally broke her heart, so please, just be aware it might be a possibility” should not come across as jealous or accusative.
Look, Doomska, you just don’t understand. Joyce is a nice girl, she’s nice and sweet and supportive, she’s obviously way better for the super-hot guy than that Mega-Bongo Raidah, who’s cruel and manipulative and ugh just such a jerk, she’d be just so much better for him, he just needs to realize it, that’s why everything Joyce is doing is totally legitimate!
………and, other people, if you nodded along and agreed with everything I just said, you’re cheering on the person developing Nice Guy Syndrome.
I don’t want to disagree since I don’t care for the rightness of any of the two here, but is there such a thing than a reverse Nice Guy Syndrome? Wouldn’t the “Nice Guy Syndrome” linked to the systemic oppression of women by men, and so the reverse could only be false equivalence?
Well there’s obviously going to be an inherent difference because male entitlement is so legitimized in our society but that doesn’t mean a woman can’t engage in the same behaviours and be super gross for doing so.
Oh trust me, NiceGirls exist. Just look on reddit.theres a lot of slut shaming and “I’m not like other girls! So I’m better than them!”, A lot of the girl claiming she just wanted to use the guy after getting rejected, insulting the girl her crush picked over her, entitlement to relationships (including thinking they deserve their ex back after they were caught cheating), and complete disrespect for boundaries. I once saw a girl get pissed that her date wouldn’t have sex with her and responded to “doesn’t no mean no?” With “only when I say it!”
I can get that. But isn’t it like all these antifem women? I mean, the point still is that as well for Nice guy TM as for the guy targeted by the “Nice Girl”, in both case it’s the man that has an impression of ownership, no? it’s a byproduct of the patriarchal systemic, no?
Also, I’m not sure you examples are the same.
No, there’s definitely a sense of ownership from the nice girls side. I forgot to mention that they’re generally the type that don’t believe men can be abused by women, and therefore tend to emotionally and sometimes physically abuse whatever poor saps fall for them. They’re the types who will say “if you’re a female you have zero reason to be talking to my man.” And like I said, they still feel entitled to the relationship even after they destroyed it themselves like if they cheated.
Except we’re seeing this from an outside perspective. It’s quite possible for us to think Raidah is a manipulative jerk and Jacob would be better off without her and be right about it.
Hell, it’s even possible to think that Jacob and Joyce would make a good couple and still think she shouldn’t be rewarded for her shitty behavior.
My biggest disappointment with this whole story arc is that I’m pretty sure it’s going to preclude Jacob/Joyce for just that reason.
What shifty behavior is Joyce engaging in. Flirting with Jacob?
Flirting with the guy involved in a relationship, with the intent of breaking up the relationship and dating him herself. (Or earlier, her announced intent of breaking them up for Sarah.)
If you don’t think that’s shitty, I don’t know what else to say.
Adding onto what thejeff said, even if you believe Joyce flirting with the dude in the relationship to break it up is fine, her flirting will also heighten tension between Jacob and Raidah, tension that might lead to a breakup, which also conceivably wouldn’t be there is Joyce hadn’t inserted herself in the situation. In this case, how could you say that Joyce is blameless? Hell, even her intentions are shitty too, she’s clearly ignoring Jacob and Raidah’s choice to be in a monogamous relationship with each other, disregarding Raidah entirely, as well as disregarding any fallout that Jacob may have to deal with.
Non sequitur much? I literally didn’t even mention Joyce in the comment you replied to.
I feel like right in this moment, his expression is just that he’s really, really sad that he has to put so much effort into “living up” to everyone else’s expectations.
At this point, I’m not sure Joyce OR Raidah is right for Jacob. Joyce doesn’t want the glamorous life Jacob does and she’s not particularly ambitious. Jacob wants someone who’s capable of being involved in the high life with him in their own right – someone who gets it basically. But Raidah talking about his brother is making him uncomfortable here and I think she’s been hitting that button a lot with how much she’s harping on his brother today (although in this instance I think it’s unintentional – she looks nervous about meeting him too rather than consciously going for anxiety). I think Jacob could use someone who is similarly ambitious and capable of understanding what that means to him but also someone who’s a bit more emotionally perceptive and supportive (and, ideally, someone he can read and support as well).
I could be wrong, maybe Raidah will notice and try to help. That would be nice.
You sure he wants that “glamorous life”? It’s Raidah who says “he needs me because of these reasons”. Plus, it’s obvious Jacob is under some pressure to step out of his brother’s shadow, he feels like he has to live up to his success in some way.
Plus, Joyce is a very supportive person, and her friend is the girl who wants to be president as well.
They get along, and I think they could have worked out, just… probably not like this. I just don’t see it happening.
Yes, I am sure. Jacob’s expressions have been showing he’s not that enthused about the simpler life and Jacob’s already said Raidah’s check for check his ideal girlfriend. Raidah’s not making that up.
And while Joyce is very supportive, she herself isn’t ambitious and has no major glamour goals. Hence Jacob’s expressions when she thinks 50K is a lot of money or his ‘yeah, whoof’ here.
I have no doubt Joyce and he get along great but I don’t think they’d be happy long term.
To be fair to Joyce, I don’t think she’s had the opportunity to explore her personality enough to decide if she’s ambitious or not. She’s never been granted the luxury of defining her own aspirations.
Pretty much this. Though she doesn’t yet see it in the same terms Becky does, the “sum of her allowed ambitions” was the same.
Jacob might help her break out of that mold and soar. After all, we know she really wants to be a fighter pilot with her own cartoon show who makes mac and cheese for their kids. 🙂
I hope he does. I don’t think Joyce really wants to be an early childhood educator. And personally I think she would’ve been a tomboy in a household that allowed her to explore herself more. I see her winding up in some STEM field if she explores who she is more.
By contrast I hope Danny does go into education. Think he would be good at it.
I think Mike would be the best damn college professor in the world.
She really hasn’t yet, but I’m speaking about her now, not who she may grow to be in the future. It’s entirely possible she’ll grow into someone more ambitious and go-getter.
so basically you’re saying Dorothy would be perfect for him
too bad Dorothy herself needs someone who’d help soothe and distract her and bring something to her life that’s not her career and ambitions. like Walky. exactly like Walky. just Walky. she needs Walky back breaking up with him for the sake of burning herself out worse was a terrible idea
Nah, Dorothy would probably be frazzled and stressed out by someone who’s just as ambitious as she is. She has a tendency to make everyone’s problems her problems and in the ‘glamorous life’ that’s going to cause rapid burnout. Dorothy needs someone low-key and fun with minimal problems so she doesn’t end every night screaming into her pillow because she’s stressing out.
I think Jacob has not indicated ANY of that. Mostly, Jacob seems to like Raidah because she’s not pressuring him for sex and they’re just enjoying each other’s company. He showed interest in Sarah until she became proved unable to move out of her misanthrope mood.
Except:
A) Jacob’s suggested fooling around with her fairly casually.
B) Again, Jacob’s said Raidah’s check for check what he wants in a girlfriend – at least to his own understanding (he doesn’t like girlfriends who get jealous, for example). Based on his own desire to be equal with his brother, who IS living the glamour life (at least to Raidah’s standards), I’d say that he’s looking for someone who DOES want the glamorous life (and would thereby understand his ambitions) and be able to stand next to him there. That’s not Joyce. It might have been Sarah (to the extent of also wanting to be a lawyer, if not the sociability aspects) but honestly Raidah’s closer than either of those two are.
I do suspect that Jacob and Raidah would define glamour like somewhat differently. But the things they want out of it often come together – especially when you’re pursuing it through law school.
Dorothy needs therapy is what Dorothy needs.
I think she’s been seeing a therapist regularly (or at least after the Rapey Mcscarface stabbing).
Wonder if she’s been cutting that out for scheduling concerns.
Or, I wonder if she’s talked to her therapist about the overwork and breakup.
To be fair, I don’t think Joyce really knows what she wants. She’s never really had the chance to think about it. When she is made to think about it, her responses are childish and fanciful because her whole life she has been allowed but a single ambition, and it is one I think she is starting to realize is a poor fit.
Yeah, my vote is solidly on ‘Jacob finds someone else after he tells both of them off for their shitty behavior in this field’.
I do think Joyce might get more ambitious once she truly realizes she’s allowed to be, but it’ll take a while for her to figure all of that out. Also, again, I do hope this ends with Jacob telling her life’s not a romcom and that behavior’s not okay.
Raidah, at the most generous, doesn’t recognize she’s aggravating Jacob’s inferiority complex with his brother. Also, I kind of think a lawyer who clearly cares about civil rights is going to be unimpressed with her if she insults professions that aren’t paid well or someone who appears to have ARFID, so she had better keep an eye on that. (I am sure she’ll try to make a Good Impression, but this meeting being mentioned guarantees chaos will ensue, and Raidah clearly considers a Good Impression including building herself up by putting others down as an option. Jacob doesn’t notice the meaner stuff because it’s tied up in his anxieties and she almost certainly didn’t start off with this shit when she met him, but if she does it the first time Harrison meets her he won’t have that thought process most likely.)
Also seriously, Joyce needs a supportive online community because I’m pretty sure she has an eating disorder.
Honestly, there’s a part of me that wants to see the meeting end up one of two ways:
1) Raidah keeps up her routine of condescending to anyone “below” her, only to find that after spending so long primping and preening and working on manufacturing her first impression her attitude ends up ruining it for her when Jacob’s brother calls her out on it.
or
2) Raidah ends up on the receiving end of her own games and either has a moment of empathy or blows her lid.
I think I like the first one better, because the running theme regarding meeting characters’ families is dispelling misconceptions of our families we form as kids, and this would give Jacob a chance to humanize his brother.
I also like the idea of Raidah getting to grow as a person! Gets called out on shitty behavior and challenged to be as responsible emotionally as she is intellectually, and Rises To It, taking on her own issues and starting to treat people better.
I mean, she’d become a bit of a boring character to deal with at that point – basically her only useful role would be Wise Mentor (or the college-story equivalent of Reformed Villain) – but there are enough other freakazoid characters in the ‘verse to keep the story running without her being shitty in center stage.
Team JacobxPizza!
Assuming Dorothy and Walky don’t get back together, I feel like Dorothy and Jacob would make an interesting couple.
I’m not sure if Dorothy would pursue that relationship even if she wanted to though since she knows about Joyce’s crush.
(This is not meant to be a commentary about the ethics of Joyce’s behaviour here, just thoughts on what Dorothy might believe about dating someone your friend already has a crush on.)
Hacking the muzak for Joyce to play “Doncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me. Doncha wish your girlfriend was fun like me by the Pussycat Dolls.
Adult restaurant? Like Hooters?
Probably some place that has a fucking chandelier and/or sconces, with those intangible white tablecloths that almost touch the floor, and like, no fucking light, so you have to squint to read their asinine menu that’s basically Olive Garden’s but with a quarter the portion and six times the price. Oh, and every fucking counter is curved and wavy, like they’re worried a straight line will displease the hypothetical phantom of a potential rich Frenchman who might, under the unknowable perfect circumstances, notice the place and have the tiniest of vague criticisms about something or other.
Ok so its not your thing then
Chandeliers are for people with silent letters in their names.
Snarky!
HA.
Eh???
Indeed – though I have been to supposedly ‘adult’ restaurants that actually had decent light. And pretty good but also pretty expensive food. There was only one time the price was not waranted by the taste.
Though I suppose Raidah mistook the adjective she used, she obviously meant “expensive”, not “adult”. But expensive doesn’t always equal good.
Plus: She just assumes Joyce and all never go to fancy restaurants. With Joyce and Becky it is the case, but disregarding that, where’d she expect to get her lunch in a timely manner to still be able to get to class? Fast food joints and Deli’s exist especially for that.
The nearest I get to going to an expensive restaurant is this local Indian Place with the nicer than standard decor but the food isn’t all that much pricier than the Indian takeaways you find in shopping mall food courts.
I did try a TGI Fridays once, the potions were pitiful and the price was up to 3 times higher than if I had gone to one of those sporting club venues.
I think she meant adult. To emphasize Joyce eating off the kid’s menu and how embarassing it would be for Jacob to take Joyce to meet his brother and have to find a place with food-not-touching-other-food.
I’m sure the class would come out if needed, but she’s aiming at low hanging fruit here. No need point out Joyce wouldn’t know which fork to use.
Chandeliers look nice but I always worry that they will fall on my head if I’m not careful.
Perhaps you’re channeling Damocles.
You know, there IS such a thing as an aesthetic preference that doesn’t come from fear and/or pretension.
Jacob isn’t going to break with Raidah because of her being a liberal elitist, a classist, or just a bully that destroys lives, but he is going to break up with her for not liking non spicy chicken. Boneless chicken without sauce tastes good.
Admitting that Raidah is manipulating him means admitting to having been fooled for a long time and generally accepting self doubt. He is not secure enough to call her out.
Call her out for what?
You honestly seem like a troll; she at minimum keeps comparing him to his brother unnecessarily and keeps acting passive-aggressive towards Joyce and undermining her in front of him. It is not ‘protecting a relationship’ as you claimed in another comment, it is attempting to damage his friendships and his self-esteem while acting like nothing is wrong.
The fact Raidah is horribly rude and controlling, which are like the things Jacob is most unhappy about.
He doesn’t like her making fun of Joyce.
…She’s in! In his head, that is.
…. so Joyce won this round.
That expression in the last panel … is he starting to notice how Raidah’s been acting today? I really hope so.
Raidah, the defense lawyer in Season 2 of Broadchurch is supposed to be the Bad Guy, not a role model.
I don’t know how intentional this is, but… Well, one of the jokes about white people is their (okay, our) aversion to spice. I KNOW, I KNOW, plenty of white people DO like spice, and maybe you’re one of them, you don’t have to yell at me! But it’s a stereotype other cultures can (and do) laugh about. It’s like the thing about not having a white person bring the potato salad to the cookout.
Food is more than just food; it’s identity. And while Willis makes it explicit that Raidah is equating non-spicy chicken with immaturity, it could also be read as her reminding Jacob of their shared blackness, which also excludes Joyce.
Word of Willis is Raidah’s not black. Going from her book PDF profile, I’m fairly sure she’s South Asian.
Ah! Thanks. So, maybe not shared blackness, but at least a shared not-whiteness.
Man like
If there is one demographic of people who are *more* poised to make fun of white people for intolerance to spice/spiciness than balck people, lemme tell you about how it’s Indians/South Asians.
………I mean, speaking as a white guy, that’s pretty justified.
Well.
Except for the crazy people, like my uncle, who happily eats chili peppers whole.
Your uncle belongs in Arkham.
I’ll be right there next to him, then.
I like some spicy food! But then I also like milk and always have it on hand if its too much so.
Depends on the region too, even in the US. Even for traditional regional cuisines, not just tolerance of eating at “ethnic restaurants”.
Anywhere with a southwestern influence can give most spicy cuisines a run for their money. Tex-Mex, chilis, Cajun and creole foods. Admittedly, that’s influence from non-white cuisines, but it’s still been widely adopted by the local white folks.
Definitely a cultural thing.
Chicken Tikka Masala is a Thing in the UK, has been for a while, not so much amongst the older population.
Yeah, isn’t that, like, one of the most mild possible Indian dishes? But it isn’t even Indian, because it was invented in the UK (either because the British thought Chicken Tikka was too dry or too spicy, depending on the story you believe)?
I suspect that’s going too far.
Joyce’s food issues are a running joke among her friends and family. Not a “white people” thing. They’re a natural and easy target for Raidah everything else aside.
“But I like pizza…”
Everyone should like pizza.
So neither Joyce and Raidah are covering themselves in glory here however in this particular instance Raidah wins this round
Last panel shows Jacob concerned about brother what his brothers opinion and while a lot of people think Joyce is nice and sweet and lovely and caring I’m thinking that Jacob thinks Harrisons reaction wouldn’t be too dissimilar to Joyces brother (the missionary one) when the Brown siblings and Becky met up
It sounds (but not confirmed) that Harrison has standards and expectations which is no bad thing when you set high goals for yourself
So if you were meeting someone like that then in a choice between Raidah at a fancy restaurant or Joyce in a family restaurant (for lack of a better term) then its not even close, Raidah will have a very good idea of how to act whereas Joyce will likely put her foot (or mouth) in it
But whatever happens there’ll be drama and shenanigans aplenty
Disagree. Notice how Jacob’s smiling when they say goodbye to Joyce and Dorothy? And how he isn’t anymore at the end of the strip, after Raidah mentioned his brother (again), dismissed his remark, and talked down to Joyce’s (and his) choice of restaurant?
Joyce didn’t *win*, but Raidah does a good job shooting herself in the foot here.
Hes not smiling because he just remembered that hes meeting up with his brother and that he has a lot of ironing to do
If he feels he that needs to iron his clothing when meeting his brother then he knows its probably not a good to idea to suggest Harrison meets him at a family restaurant so they can all enjoy chicken fingers that aren’t too spicy
Maybe Harrison likes chicken fingers, and would love nothing more than to max out on a big ol’ plate of ’em with his baby bro.
He may well do but we don’t know that and the person that appears to know him best, Jacob, seems to think that fancy restaurants and ironed clothes are the way to go
The result is the same.
Or he’s not smiling because, somewhere deep down that he doesn’t even admit is a possibility, he’s imagining bringing Joyce to meet his brother and how embarrassed he’d be by all the superficial things Raidah’s been bringing up. (And maybe the more serious ones like Joyce having no apparent ambitions beyond being a housewife and mom.)
Little realizing maybe that Harrison would be as impressed as he was by the fundie who punched out her lesbian friend’s kidnapping bigoted dad.
My view is different that Jacob DOESN’T want to live in his brother’s shadow but not in the way Raidah thinks. He doesn’t want to follow his brother’s path and we know Jacob ends up having a complete breakdown in the Shortpacked verse. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s because of Raidah.
I think Jacob is realizing that Raidah wants to be with his brother and not necessarily him.
More properly, I think he’s realising that Raidah is going to expect him to be just like Harrison — she wants to be one half of a power couple. And I somehow think Jacob has plans of his own for his life, that don’t involve being a carbon copy of his brother.
Except he said the opposite. He’s his own person, not a canvas for the protagonists fantasies.
Man, the ironing, the ironing …
Raidah is not exactly self aware, is she
Gonna say preemptively, after reading more posts, I’m sure she is aware in how she’s manipulating him and so on, but she really doesn’t seem aware that he looks really disappointed when she disses his friends.
I think if I was there in person I could read Jacob’s micro expressions and see how how his thoughts are tending. But here, he’s opaque. I can read him one of several ways and I have no idea which is correct.
I reread the last few strips with Raidah in and wow there was really nothing redeeming about her at all, seriously Raidah just chill out a bit. I get that you’re feeling threatened with Joyce but damn she really tried to cut both Joyce and Dorothy to pieces.
Also I think that has rubbed off on Jacob too, that moment where he’s gone “yeah whoof” and then looks really sad afterwards, he doesn’t want to be that person at all
Hopefully these guys can talk, at the moment I don’t think Jacob should really be with either of them
You know, if Raidah could stop obsessing about herself for one minute, she’d see that Jacob is not a happy bunny. I’ve said it before: Joyce won’t have to win anything; Raidah will end up throwing it all away because she’s so self-obsessed.
And what a lesson that would be for Joyce, if you want something then go after it and don’t worry about other peoples feelings
You do understand that you can go after the things you want while being considerate of people’s feelings yes? And that Joyce hasn’t actually crossed any lines that could cause Jacob or even Raidah any problems? If Jacob is unhappy with Raidah and prefers being with Joyce, he should be. If he’s not, he won’t be. Jacob has all the actual power here. He gets to make the decision.
But you do understand that Regardless of how you view Joyce’s behavior, she does not consider Raidah’s feelings?
That part is clear. She does want to break up Raidah and Jacob and they were just sniping at each other all through lunch.
So you can try to claim she’s considerate of Jacob’s feeling (I disagree), but she’s definitely not considerate of Raidah’s.
“Oh no… The person I’m dating is kind of a jackass”
geez, some people are way too eager to step out of childhood
as for me I’ll cling onto as much of it as I can for as long as I’ll be able to ^^
I hate food snobbery more than anything else. For food if I can eat it and I can afford it and it’s safe/clean that makes it the best food in the world.
Ooh, look at the safe-playing square, preferring edible food. Try living on the wild side for once, and eat some real food, like Little Caesar’s or a kiwi fruit.
Sorry, but I have a hard time figuring things out, so could someone explain to me what a family restaurant is? I believe it’s not the same in my culture.
Also, wouldn’t it be considered more mature to eat with fork and knife, hence the adult word? I’m asking there, there is a big cultural gap I still have to figure.
Family restaurants are generally more casual. Kid-friendly especially. So they’ll have booster seats and kids’ menus and if the kids are being loud no one cares. An adult restaurant would be more formal and any kids, if they’re allowed, would be expected to be quiet.
Family restaurants are an almost uniquely North American thing. Generally in North America, fancy restaurants are considered places where people shouldn’t bring children unless those children are older or exceptionally well-behaved. Kids aren’t forbidden, per se, but more that it’s socially discouraged and mainstream impression is that children don’t belong somewhere fancy like that. As well, if your child starts behaving in a disruptive or unhappy way, you may be asked to leave if you don’t leave on your own.
But families with kids like to be able to eat out once in a while, right? And how are kids supposed to learn the rules of how to eat out if they never get to go to a restaurant? So a whole industry of less fancy restaurants with explicit accommodations for children has popped up, and these are termed “family restaurants” which generally have special (super bland) menus for kids and booster seats/high chairs, etc, and where children being kids are tolerated. Some family restaurants even have activity rooms or playgrounds for children to play in while the adults enjoy some adult conversation for a change (McDonald’s and Dairy Queen are two common franchises that do this in Canada) and several have children’s menus with toys to keep the kids busy.
Elsewhere in the world, generally speaking, family restaurants don’t seem to be a thing. Parents bring their kids to real restaurants and feed their kids off the parents’ plates (if the child is too young to eat their own meal) or order their kids adult entrees – kid’s menus aren’t a thing because many cultures hold that kids’ can only develop a palate through exposure, so why would you have a kid eat special, blander food and ruin their palate?
Funny story: The concept of feeding children special, blander food specifically aimed at kids was invented in the US in the 1890s to try to stop masturbation in children in North America (it was thought that spicy food would lead to over-arousal in kids and masturbation), and by now it’s so culturally entrenched most adults in North America genuinely think children can’t handle flavorful food. Which you get disabused of quickly if you travel to Asia and see toddlers snacking down on stinking tofu or szechuan noodles left, right and center, or if you travel to Europe and see a bunch of kids chowing down on liver and other foods that are thought of as “not kid foods” in North America.
Anyway, I’m not a historian but I wouldn’t be surprised if the ultrabland cuisine of a lot of religious conservative circles in the US derives from the same principles.
Kid’s menu in my country is usually less (in terms quantity), because kids don’t always eat as much as adults.
Which makes sense – I’m talking more North America’s brand of kids menu, which is typically super bland and unhealthy – fries and chicken nuggets, plain hamburger and fries, and plain cheese pizza being the three most common options in Canada on kids menus.
Since American portions are so huge, kids’ menus seem to have about normal meal portions that an adult should eat anyway.
Huh, that is really interesting about the origin of bland “kids’ food” and I didn’t know about it. I’d always kinda wondered about that!
Thanks to you (and to the former poster) for your explanation.
This notion is very alien to me because I can’t even think of McDonalds as a restaurant. They did bargained the right to call themselves restaurant here (in exchange to cash for the FIFA during a world cup) but nobody would call it so, or even say “I go to restaurant” to go there or in diners, joints, or other franchised kinds.
Here the kid menu exist in most fancier restaurants, as the country relies much on tourism to pay the bills, and tourists are mostly families, so they can typically have salad + fries&steack/ham or sausages + a small portion ice cream as kid’s menu. It is extremely common that if called ahead, even very fancy places accomodate for kids’ chairs. But of course, couples and friends meetings traditionnally take place around 21PM and later on, so most kids would be already sleeping, so there’s not such a turmoil about having both noisy kids and discreet dates. I don’t think it’s legal to refuse someone with children or ask them to leave because of the noise. If you and your kids don’t behave, you will get cold stares, cold food, slow and bad service as a result, since waiters don’t rely on tips.
Also, until recently, most people only rarely eat out, maybe once every two/three months. The trend is changing, arguably because time for mandatory meal pauses was shortened.
It wasn’t just children; the whole “excitement” thing went along with the Temperance movement in the U.S.and gave us Kellogg’s Corn Flakes and Prohibition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg
Point Raidah, sadly.
Point Raidah at the door and advise her against allowing said door to strike her on the posterior, more like.
pokemon go to the pollsNot sadly at all. Joyce is being terrible and absolutely deserves to have this whole thing blow up in her face to teach her that she can’t treat her relationships like she lives in a shitty 90s romcom.
Well, Raidah is being more terrible, so… I hope that blows up in her face.
In what way is Raidah being more Terrible by not being polite to someone being an actively toxic actor?
In her personality and behaviour? Yeah, she’s not the instigator here but she’s letting a very ugly side of her show while trying to show up Joyce.
I hope (and suspect) it’s going to blow up in both their faces.
Team Jacob/Pizza!
The pizza only wants him for his body.
Pizza: I want to be inside you.
Jacob: HOLY SHIT DID THAT PIZZA JUST TALK?
Mike, other side of the restaurant: *Casually reading Ventriloquism for Dummies*
That’s fair. He only wants it for his body, too.
Jacob’s apparent harem anime protagonist grade obliviousness makes me not want to root for him either like I’m not a fan of anyone in this clusterfuck.
Not even the pizza’s?
Raidah is manipulative and mean spirited towards her boyfriend, so I’m sad it worked.
Raidah, you keep using “we” when you mean “I.” Knock it off, it’s creepy af
So is Raidah the physical embodiment of the Venom symbiote suit ? Oh shit are we in Spider-Man 3 right now.
The itch-bay is strong with this one.
From Jacob’s face in that final panel, I think Raidah just blew it.
A bit
(love your YKK avatar <3)
So…Galasso’s has chicken fingers?
Don’t know for sure, but they looked like normal human fingers in the panels he has appeared in.
So Panel 1 Dorothy is uncertain how to handle new horny Joyce, Joyce is oblivious to what she’s doing herself (it is entirely possible to flirt unconsciously if you’re raised in a super conservative household – when Joyce has tried to flirt before she was way too over-aggressive and scared Joe off, so I honestly don’t think she’s flirting on purpose. Befriending him on purpose, sure, but not flirting). Jacob seemingly oblivious to Joyce and Raidah sniping at each other all meal, and Raidah looking displeased but like she’s trying to hide that.
Panel 2, Jacob is trying to joke with Raidah … looking to relieve tension? Maybe he wasn’t so oblivious but was just trying to pretend he was so he didn’t have to deal with it. Raidah for her part plays emotional whataboutism. Rather than keep talking about something I find uncomfortable/threatening (Joyce), what about this thing you’re anxious about?
Which brings us to panel 3 – Jacob’s reaction here suggests to me that where he relates to and likes Joyce it’s because she relates to the experience of being crushed under family expectations. He seems to genuinely dread seeing his brother in the same way Joyce dreaded Freshman family weekend. That’s… worrying. Is it just that he feels he can’t match up, or is it that the Golden Boy has a mean streak?
And Raidah twists the knife of his anxiety because… ? I mean, she does seem to be using the tactics of an emotional abuser but why? Usually someone who’s doing that has an aim in mind – whether it’s reminding you of your insecurity so you return to behaving in a subordinate way (my money’s on this – there’s a reason Raidah targeted a younger guy for her ambitions) or if it’s trying to manipulate you into something, there’s an end goal in mind. What’s Raidah’s?
Panel 5 – Transparent dig at Joyce, trying to isolate Jacob (or at least make him feel uncomfortable about bringing her up around Joyce). Interestingly, Jacob joked like this and pissed Sarah off in so doing a couple weeks ago in-universe. Now that he knows Joyce, he’s also made uncomfortable by Raidah making fun of Joyce’s sheltered upbringing. I like bringing this full circle, really emphasizes how Jacob himself has grown up over the past few weeks – from a guy who’d socially bully a girl he didn’t know to make friends with someone in his class to a guy who recognizes that for what it is and is made uncomfortable by it. You can see that in how he doesn’t continue the joke or bring up another anecdote – instead by the last panel, Jacob is downcast.
Which is right where Raidah seems to want him.
I don’t know whether Raidah and Jacob have an abusive relationship yet but this is getting close – in these panels, we’ve seen Raidah use Jacob’s insecurity to punish him for behavior she doesn’t like, use his insecurity to make him subordinate to her, and tried to isolate him from friendships she doesn’t approve of. It’s troubling.
Like Raidah is a great foil for Dorothy and Joyce, and I enjoy her as a character (unlike Mike) because I see why she does what she does and she seems a believable antagonist. But she’s got some abusive tendencies.
I don’t think you’re reading the last panel right. I think Jacob looks downcast because they’re going to go to an “adult restaurant” (read: and now turn an enjoyable activity into a performative act, draining the fun out of it) instead of somewhere he can feel relaxed in and get something he ACTUALLY likes to eat. I’d love to throw Mike at that dinner.
Yours is certainly a valid interpretation, though.
I find it confusing when someone besides the author of a work asserts that somebody else’s differing view on the motivations of characters in a fictitious world is ‘valid’.
It feels to me like the author knows what is the right interpretation and what isn’t. In an ongoing work like this, we’ll all eventually see what was right. All of the other guesses aren’t the right one.
But I don’t see what makes some guesses more valid than others. Well, OK, if I said Jacob looked really excited in the last panel, that would probably be wrong. Also, if I claimed I thought he was probably just sad because he was realizing that he’d never be able to get Torg’s man love, due to Torg’s undying fascination with Emmi Esk, that wouldn’t be particularly valid.
But to say someone who had the same thought about the emotion behind the expression as you, but had different in-universe explanations for that emotion was or was not valid doesn’t seem like something that makes any sense.
For me, it’s because tone doesn’t convey properly over the internet. I wanted to make sure what I wrote was interpreted as “I think you’re wrong and I think this is the correct interpretation, but I see your conclusion as a possible one” and not “You’re wrong, I’m right, and you’re a moron for thinking like you do.”
There are interpretations where the author would have to be actively misrepresenting things in a frankly stupid way in order to serve a later twist for them to be wrong.
A lot of times, in this context, “valid” just means “plausible.”
Used that way, well…at a given time with the information present, some ideas ARE more plausible than others. Most people wouldn’t call “Raidah’s doing this because she cares about Joyce and wants her to be happy” a valid read of the situation, even though Willis technically could have the story unfold in a way that reveals that to have been her motivation all along.
Turns out Jacob is an abuser and Raidah is trying to keep him from abusing Joyce.
Willis: “Take that, readers!”
Readers: “Damn you, Willis!”
The author has a better position than most to declare an interpretation correct or incorrect.
But validity – fitting with established facts – doesn’t require the author’s insight – anyone can see the events on the page.
Joe wasn’t scared off by over aggressive flirting. He was bothered by how fast she wanted to go “romantically” vs how slow she wanted to go physically.
And even that didn’t make him end the date. It was the face punching.
Other than that, which I couldn’t resist commenting about, interesting analysis.
Romantically overaggressive. And Joe was creeped out by Joyce’s marriage-and-babies talk even if he didn’t run away right away.
Hahaha! Sorry- even mentioning the face punching makes me laugh. I laugh out oud every time I read that part.
Panel 1 is Dorothy rethinking her post-Walky-breakup plan of having Joyce fill the gaps in her Recreation Quadrant. Repeatedly.
Seriously, isn’t Dorothy the only one in that panel who has been shown to have had sex?
IMHO, a disinterested (not uninterested) observer might just conclude that Raidah and Joyce have a lot more in common than they are dissimilar. And that it was Char who was really nasty to Dina earlier, with Raidah’s insults actually being aimed at Sarah.
So this pretty much confirms that Raidah is with Jacob because of his connections, at least for me. I’ve suspected as much for a while but this pretty much cements it in my eyes. (Either that or she wants to use Jacob to get close to his brother and then get with the brother instead, but I feel like that’s less likely.)
Almost every time we’ve seen the two of them together, something about his brother gets brought up. We’ve also seen her mention how important it is to have connections with the lawyer’s world, or at least she’s implied it in my opinion.
Her friend group with Dana consisted of multiple people who had lawyers in the family, she’s brought up the fact that her father is a lawyer, she’s dating a guy with an apparently famous lawyer brother…with whom she is hoping for the best possible first impression. That doesn’t sound to me like “I want your family to like me” so much as “I want a famous lawyer to like me.” Although I guess it could be both.
Granted, it is possible for her to ACTUALLY LIKE Jacob and that she would still be with him regardless of his brother’s status… But I’m not seeing that as very likely.
I hope Jacob realizes this. I kind of hope she’ll be more obvious than she realizes about her intentions when she meets him.
I kind of hope that we get to see the meeting with the brother, and he sees right through her and actually gets offended by it.
That might be it, or she might just be bringing him up as emotional leverage on Jacob. “You need to live up to the expectations of the brother you admire so much, so you better choose me, the future-lawyer as a partner, rather than a less ambitious or financially successful teacher.”
She said as much in the past. Though, these motivations are far from mutually exclusive.
Very fair point. But she could be choosing HIM for his connections while also making sure he thinks he needs her.
Which is probably what you meant by that last sentence :p
If I were trying not to overthink this, I’d say that Joyce isn’t trying to break up Jacob and Raidah anymore because she doesn’t like that idea, but she is also not terribly self-aware. And that despite their differences she and Jacob actually enjoy each other’s company, and that matters a lot, and that Raidah hasn’t cracked that code yet.
I think you’re either giving Joyce too much credit (to think she wouldn’t try to steal someone else’s man) or too little credit (to think she isn’t aware of what she’s doing).
What the fuck’s the difference between an adult and kid restaurant?
Like…Lonestar vs. Waffle House?
Applebees vs. Carlos?
Olive Garden vs. Texas Roadhouse?
I think, in context, that an “adult restaurant” is one which assumes that (a) you want your food to taste like something other than corn syrup and (b) you can be trusted not to smash most of the dishes.
Remember – lawyers. Think fancy place with a culinary school trained chef, extensive wine list, many courses and small portions. Oh, and unidentifiable silverware.
Usually by ‘adult’ someone like Raidah means ‘so fancy that people with food sensitivities/allergies/autism won’t be able to eat there and there will be nothing suitable for a kid’s typical palate (some kids like complex foods, but a lot are overstimulated by them until they get older)’.
By ‘kid’ they usually mean it is usually designed around families and is easily adjustable for people with sensitivities and likely has specific kid options too.
The quickest method is usually “Are there photos of the food in your menu” Quickly followed by “Does the kids menu come on its own activity paper”
Ultimately, It doesn’t cater to families/children.
Which is fine. Even parents need a place away from ‘family’ style establishments.
I feel like the question right now is whether Jacob is too worried about his brother’s visit now to even notice that Raidah is shit-talking his friend.
Agreed.
Raidah, Galasso’s serves alcohol.
Your complaint is moot.
An old CS Lewis line which seems appropriate in regards to this scene:
“Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence…When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
I never knew that was the whole quote.
Reminds me of something from XKCD a forever and a half ago… “We’re adults, it’s our turn to decide what that means.”
I even put that on a t-shirt, I love it so much.
My second-favourite reworking of “When I became a man…”
My favourite is Sir Terry Pratchett’s “when I became a man I put away childish things because. wow, then I could afford much *better* childish things!” Ethan knows what I’m talking about.
I’m a fan of MacHall’s: I put away childish things, but I unpacked most of them when I got there.
“It’s never too late to have a happy childhood.” – Tom Robbins
Hmmmm… Methinks Raidah thinks her relationship is going better than it is.
Cattiness is so the wrong tactic to take with Jacob.
Good.
Raidah can’t be that clueless, can she? Is she an only child or something? Obviously anyone with an older sibling who can Do No Wrong has insecurities about not measuring up; sometimes that’s the key source of their insecurities.
And Jacob has self-esteem issues, even if he hides them well. I have no strong shipping feelings one way or the other, but I do believe that a SO who makes you feel *more* insecure or reinforces comparing you to the people you judge yourself so harshly against is probably not the best for you.
This comic is the first time I realized people might genuinely do this out of cluelessness rather than intentionally trying to put you down to build themselves up. Because I get the vibe that Raidah actually has good self-esteem herself, and doesn’t seem to be wanting to tear down Jacob to control him. It literally doesn’t occur to her that this is not a great thing to say.
Definitely seems to me she’s doing to control him – or more accurately to make herself look better as someone his brother would approve of than Joyce would be.
Whether she’s thinking of that as actually tearing at his self-esteem or not is more difficult.
Raidah: I’M AN ADULT!
Inigo: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
“we only get that one first impression”: does it mean it’s the first time Jacob will meet is brother? Or is Raidah royalty?
I interpreted that to mean, first time to meet as a “power” couple. I am wondering however, if Raidah might be using Jacob to try and land successful big brother for herself.
You know, even disregarding the Joyce situation, Raidah is an awful person who has yet to show a single redeeming character trait. Seriously.
She walked up to Sarah unprovoked twice to harass her in her introductory scenes. She thought it was okay to be condescending and infantalizing as all hell to Dina so long as she didn’t use ableist slurs (and spare me the whataboutism that other characters did the same, it wasn’t okay for them to do it and it wasn’t okay for her). She’s an elitist snob. She’s either deliberately manipulating Jacob via his insecurities about his brother, or she’s so obsessed with Harrison and her ability to network through him that she doesn’t even notice Jacob’s discomfort, and neither is a good look.
What a miserable person. I hope Jacob gets far, far away sooner rather than later.
Also, how do I change my gravatar?
Gravatars are based off the email you put in, thankfully its case sensitive, so just change the capitalisation of letters until you get the one you want
She does have a few good character traits, they just don’t make up for her bad ones remotely. For instance; she is polite, good at carrying conversations, charismatic, patient, and she will call out her friends on their prejudice (while she is still ableist, she did call out a friend who was being more obviously so). Like, it makes sense why some people are friends with her in comic and why Jacob was initially drawn to her as she does outwardly have good traits towards people she likes, and has been understanding towards Jacob in ways he has found other girls aren’t always.
But when you’re a reader like us you can go ‘holy hell Raidah’ because of her classism, ableism and overly vindictive and petty nature.
It’s the fact she’s judging
There seems to be a few disparaging remarks about Raidah talking about adult restaurants but consider the upside which is no screaming or running around kids to deal with
So theres always an upside
Except she’s not praising “adult” restaurants because she doesn’t want to be around screaming children. She’s saying that to dis Joyce, trying to get Jacob to dismiss her as immature and childish.
She’s right, Joyce *is* immature and childish in many ways. But she’s also kind and generous, whereas Raidah is showing she’s not a nice person. Thing is, Joyce can grow up…
As someone who had to deal with very picky younger siblings for a lot of my life, I get a bit of what Raidah’s saying, except that she’s saying it to make Joyce look bad and in such a rude way in general. Like. It’s pizza, Raidah, everyone, including adults that aren’t snooty assholes, like pizzas (and subs).
Can you hate someone who’s in the Right? I feel like I hate someone who’s technically in the right in this situation
Absolutely. Everyone is called out on their bad behavior.