Spin off stories and other adventures from the world of Atomic Robo!
Wychwood
Varethane
When Tiara's pyrokinesis is finally noticed, she is captured by a magical research organization for study. If she cooperates, she could be helping to save humanity from a dire threat - but can she trust them?
Folklore
Adam Ma, Colin Tan Wei
A superhuman horror story focused on a small band of survivors trying to navigate a war-torn world in the aftermath of the Federation’s collapse.
Patrik the Vampire
Bree Paulsen
Patrik loves to knit, bake, and help his friends while dealing with his own demons... like his thirst for blood because, oh yeah--he's a vampire.
Lighter Than Heir
Melissa Albino
A young Volant woman joins the military in an effort to upstage her war-hero father.
Come Hell or High Water
Jenny/Star, Mori
Prince Gladimir was never meant to fall for a pirate. Swearing off love for duty, the threat of war propels him back into the Captain’s world of high seas and high stakes. Their relationship could be the thing to save the kingdom of Yvoire - or destroy it.
Tove
Severin
The end of the world is coming, and Tove doesn't want to be a hero, but SOMEONE has to look after her little brother.
Knights Errant
J.R. Doyle
Wilfrid's humble quest for revenge becomes bigger and bloodier by the day.
How to be a Werewolf
Shawn Lenore
Malaya Walters was bitten by a werewolf as a child. After being raised by her human family, she faces the chance to learn what being a werewolf is really like as an adult.
Girl Genius
Phil Foglio, Kaja Foglio
In a time when the Industrial Revolution has become an all-out war, Mad Science rules the World...with mixed success.
MASKLESS
kickingshoes
In a world where people can wield the magic of elemental Masks, all Ashe wants to do is help. Maskless and useless, with dreams of fire and smoke on the back of his tongue, he finds himself on a strange, dangerous path to uncovering the secrets of these incredible objects, and the source of the monsters plaguing his home.
Fairmeadow
Kendra P. / KP
A wayward soldier finds herself in a pacifist commune deep in the wilderness of a war-weary land. Living in isolation brings her closer to those she was sworn to kill than she could ever imagine - but also threatens to tear the place apart.
The Witch Door
Anni K.
Katariina Lehto discovers her neighbor is a witch called Jousia Muotka. Jousia introduces Katariina to the strange people and places beyond the witch door...
Spinnerette
Krazy Krow, Rocio Zucchi, Pablo Rey
When a lab accident gives Heather Brown spider powers and six arms, she does what any midwest comic geek would do: Become Ohio's #3 superhero!
2 Slices
RJ Morel
After a case of mistaken identity, will awkward Daisuke find help from excitable Mamo, or will his love life be thrown completely off track?
Obelisk
Ashley McCammon
In 1908 New York, a young woman struggles to put her life back together in the wake of her father's death - until she discovers a vampire in the shambles of her inheritance.
Demon Studies
Miyuli
Four students summon and study potentially dangerous demons within the walls of the mysterious Summerland University.
Sam & Fuzzy
Sam Logan
Troubled by gangster rodents, lovesick vampire stalkers, or confused ninja assassins? Don't panic! Sam and Fuzzy are here to help. (For a reasonable fee.)
Countdown to Countdown
Velinxi
Iris Black is a self-proclaimed inventor with the curious ability to bring his drawings to life, and yearns to find a space where he can use his powers freely.
Dumbing of Age
David M Willis
Joyce has been homeschooled her entire life until now, when she's suddenly a freshman in college! Things don't go well.
Wilde Life
Pascalle Lepas
Oscar decided to rent an old haunted house, and that's when things got weird...
Hazy London
Scotty
A story about messy relationships. From friendly foes to crazy families. Nothing is black and white, just full of color. But, all colors can get a little hazy...
Between Failures
Jackie Wohlenhaus
The low stakes adventures of an assorted group of 20 somethings trapped in the declining years of American retail. They are naughty and say lots of swears.
Killjoys
Flatw00ds
When two disgraced ex-feds fall backwards into trouble with the clown mafia, getting out in one piece is gonna be no joke!
Guilded Age
T Campbell, John Waltrip, Florence Machina
Welcome to the saga of the working-class adventurer! Enjoy the complete story with new annotations daily!
Goblins
Ellipsis
A fantasy RPG as told through the eyes of the low-level monsters.
Far to the North
Allison Shaw
Kelu turns to the monsters of her remote mountain home when her family is held hostage by outsiders.
Shaderunners
Alex Assan, Lin Darrow
A ragtag band of bootleggers open a speakeasy for bottled colour in the greyscale city of Ironwell.
Clockwork
Chikuto
Cog Kleinschmidt is a diligent, quiet worker at the Mercia Fortress, the world power's leading stronghold. His orderly life is thrown into chaos when an enemy kingdom sends a diplomat for peace talks. This diplomat needs something from Cog - whether he agrees to their terms or not!
Lunar Blight
Studio CARTRIDGE, Laura Lee
Lunar Blight is a gothic horror story about an elite knight serving a moon cult who must choose between upholding his honoured duty or condemning everything he’s grown to know.
Cyanide & Happiness
Explosm
Satire, dark humor and surreal humor.
Heart of Gold
Eliot Baum, Viv Tanner
A pianist with failing eyesight seeks out a priest with a miraculous healing touch, drawing him deeper into a world of miracles and curses.
Whomp!
Ronnie
A depressed, portly, hirsute anime fan stumbles through life in the ever-pursuit of chicken nuggets and other life-shortening indulgences.
Anacrine Complex
Sae Cotton
A superhuman heist involving probably too many pigeons than entirely necessary.
The Otherknown
Lorian Merriman
Chandra is a 12-year-old accidental time traveler with a reluctant new dad, who happens to be a member of a feared galactic crime syndicate.
Awaken
Koti Saavedra/Flipfloppery
Superpowers, monsters and conspiracies. Piras, the spoiled Dameschi heir, fights to recover his identity after becoming a terrorist!
Sunshine Boy
Moosopp
New-kid Kelly is sweet but naive. Luckily, he's got his outgoing neighbor Grey in his corner.
Paint the Town Red
Windy, Winter Jay Kiakas
Winona runs a werewolf shelter with partner in crime, Odile in the Gothic city of Merlot. One day they take in an injured vampire, and soon unravels many of the dark secrets of Merlot.
Empowered
Adam Warren
A sexy superhero comedy (except when it isn't) about the never-ending struggles of a plucky but very unlucky young superheroine.
El Goonish Shive
Dan Shive
WARNING: This comic often ignores the Laws of Physics
Monster Pulse
Magnolia Porter Siddell
Four kids run afoul of a creepy secret organization's experiments, which turn their body parts into fighting monsters. Part sentimental coming-of-age story, part monster-training shonen manga, with just a bit of sci-fi body horror.
Go Get a Roomie
Clover
Experience the queer journey of an upbeat hippie and the friendships she makes along the way! A tale of self-discovery and love of many forms.
Atomic Robo
Brian Clevinger, Scott Wegener
The robot punches monsters and bad robots and one time he was a cowboy.
Nerf Now!!
Josué Pereira
A cute webcomic about fanservice, video games, and... love. Mostly video games, though.
Solstoria
Angelica Maria
After her brother goes missing, Samantha vows to become a Knight and help those around her in the Kingdom of St. Helena.
Drugs & Wires
Mary Safro, Io Black
Dan used to be a VR operator until his brain got fried by malware. Now he's stuck delivering packages in a post-Soviet hellhole all while trying to adjust to his new life and find some answers.
[un]Divine
Ayme
A highschool senior thought giving up his soul for a demon was a good idea. It wasn't.
Demon's Mirror
Harry Bogosian
Based loosely off of "The Snow Queen", a story by Hans Christian Andersen, we see things take a different turn as the demons become central characters, and the side characters stick around. Yup, that's the only differences. Enjoy!
No End
Erli, Kromi
A queer romance about people attempting to build lives in a cold, post-apocalyptic world ravaged by hordes of undead.
The Lonely Vincent Bellingham
Diana Huh
Vincent is an unkind man looking to disappear, and finds himself in the care of a vampire and her two wicked children.
Star Trip
Gisele Weaver
Jas is a human taken from her home planet on a trip across the galaxy she will never forget.
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Yeah, me too. For a very, very long time. Not just the last eight or nine years. A very, very long time.
Honestly, the biggest lesson I’ve learned is this:
The hardest thing in the world is to get people to recognise what is directly in front of their faces.
None of this was secret, none of this was hidden, they said all this shit in words amongst themselves in places anyone could hear it. None of it was even subtle. You just had to listen to them and acknowledge what was going on in front of you was actually happening, and… almost no one would.
So here we are, down the singularity, past the event horizon, and there are no more good outcomes. Only varying degrees of bad.
(But those degrees of bad are still really, really important. It’s funny that the best hope now for climate is a global economic implosion that doesn’t quite get to active war. Biden’s infrastructure programme tipped solar and wind into high enough production that it’s now cheaper than oil, without subsidies. Push comes to shove, that’s all anyone in industry will care about – particularly as people try to recover from Trump’s all too likely economic depression.)
What is crazy is how hard it STILL IS to get people to see the obvious threats happening right in front of them. You show people how Kolmar Abrego Garcia was unilaterally removed from the country without any due process against a Supreme Court order, and they are just straight up ignoring the order to return him. And they will just quote the DHS lies about him being an MS13 member and we don’t want terrorists back in the country. HELLO? There was no due process, there is no evidence he is a member of a gang, and the government has already admitted he was deported accidentally. And now they are talking about using the same process against “homegrown terrorists”. How can they possibly make it any more obvious that they are setting the stage to claim people they don’t like are terrorists and export them to a foreign prison system without any due process?
The problem is that it always starts out as seeming impossible to happen to people. Then it happens and they have to normalize it in their mind to make sense of it, so it can’t actually be that bad.
If people build a gallows, contact a rope merchant, walk you to the gallows, and put the rope around your neck, if they deny that you are being walked to the gallows during that process its called “Lying” and your confusion as to how “can’t they see that they are hanging people and it kills them.” Is the distraction they use on you. Its give you hope they will stop if they notice, so they wont try and forcibly stop you.
Fascists don’t stop because you ask them to or show them that they are doing a fascism. Your confusion over them not admitting to there collective actions, helps them.
If only if only the woodpecker cried the wood was a little bit softer. The wolf cried aloud at the moon as he cried “If only, If only.”
“Homegrown terrorists” == “US citizens who protest / whistleblow too much, whom we’ve accused with no evidence whatsoever”. And sent out of country to concentration camps. With no due process, no rights at all. Guantanamo * 100. And removal of citizenship with no due process, no rights, and no undoing it. And if it’s accidental? Whoopsie.
The problem is, Dara, that even if people accept climate change is a problem and do something about it, they still fail to recognise that environmental overreach, of which climate change is merely a symptom, is going to screw us over anyway.
People really underestimate how fast a democracy can unravel itself. It only took Hitler 53 days to turn Germany from a parliamentary republic into a dictatorship. Trump promised he’d be a dictator from day 1.
Y’know, the fuckin’ weird part is, I’m pretty sure Hitler was in better health than the orange thing. It took a few years to take that loser out, but a lightly rowdy child could probably bump into this loser and get the job done.
I dunno. Hiltler had a plethora of health problems for which his personal doctor prescribed him like 70+ different drugs, including phenytoin, cocaine, and actual crystal meth
I mean meth was pretty popular in Germany back then, they actually gave it to the Nazi soldiers initially but then stopped on account that the withdrawal symptoms basically made them start to murder each other
Nazis murdering each other? Damn, now that’s some good clean entertainment. Not even a tiny moral dilemma, you can just pop some corn and watch the show. After all, they’re just Nazis.
Is there a particular event we’re despairing over? I try to keep up to date, but so much is constantly happening and never seems to stop from keep happening constantly, so I’ve kinda lost track of where the fuck we’re even at. Is it like This Week recent or [broad and frantic hand waving]?
There are countless events to despair about, but I think the most significant at the moment is how Trump isn’t doing anything about the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia.
The salient facts are:
1. the Trump administration itself recognized this deportation was “an administrative mistake”.
2. the Supreme Court, that very Supreme Court that’s packed with Trump-appointed “Justices” that decided Trump should be legally immune for any and all crimes he decides to officially commit, has ordered the government to bring Abrego Garcia back.
3. Trump received the dictator of El Salvadar in the White House, and instead of demanding the safe return of Abrego Garcia, preferred to talk about how “homegrowns are next”, meaning that he’s planning to also send native US citizens to foreign prisons.
Note: They fired the man who said it was a mistake and said it was because he didn’t fight harder against the order. Which is to say they hate that anyone admitted he wasn’t a terrorist.
getting really bad really fast is a good thing overall. Better than a slow creep of abuses to get the general public used to one before the next one hits. This way there’s a greater chance of enough of the comfortable to become uncomfortable.
That’s only true if there’s a public-pressure, mostly-non-violent means of stopping it.
There’s 2 reasons fascists hit the gas on going full-fascism:
* they’re overeager and inept
* they know they’ve already won
They control all 3 branches of the federal government already – even the one that’s halfheartedly wagging their fingers at the open contempt for due process. They’ve thrown out literally everyone whose job it is to prevent abuses of power. All that’s left is waiting for an excuse to declare martial law and start ignoring posse comitatis. At the moment, the political opposition is still at the “public denouncements and filing useless lawsuits” stage of toothlessly resisting.
Give it a few more months, and enough of the drowsy sheep will realize the wolves have somehow been named shepherds and start gathering in the streets to bleat. Which’ll make ’em nice targets, of course.
Who would’ve thought the most unrealistic thing in this comic strip that includes a superhero would end up being a MAGA Republican voluntarily giving up power for… any reason at all, really, but particularly a queer kid.
Who knows how close to reality Willis’ GOP would’ve been, but a Robin that stayed in politics to fight for queer rights as a member of a Republican Party even kind of similar to IRL would’ve been forced out of power by her own party leadership with very little hesitation.
Even if you’re right, what… difference does that make for the comparison, which was just talking about whether Dorothy is bi or straight with an exception
I don’t even agree with that description of Dorothy or Robin, but it doesn’t really seem to have anything to do with Joyce’s reciprocation or lack thereof.
Dorothy finds Amazi-girl hot.
Amazi-girl and Amber share a body
It has been said that Amber is “Thick Brunette Dorothy”
….
I’m not going to read anymore into this.
Yeah, A-G’s the second of the two. Joyce is, of course, the first.
There are some others that are plausible, but if someone wants to say that Dorothy’s not into them, I’m not going to look at them askance and go, “Are you even reading the comic?”
Even Dorothy is not claiming to be a lesbian! Why do so many people here seem to think that possible attraction to up to 2 females, in a lifetime of being male-attracted and acting like it, automatically means that said attractions to and relationships with men are totally all lies, and never ever real? Like, come on.
Dorothy needs to talk to WALKY first, not try to publicly fuck Joyce, for crying out loud. Walky is her boyfriend, ant least in her mind, and deserves better treatment.
Of course she isn’t, she was previously trying to convince Danny she wasn’t even a 1 on the Kinsey scale.
2. Things can be gay without the people involved identifying that way. I’m bi, I do gay stuff all the time. It’s used as an umbrella term sometimes. Relax.
3. “not to try to publicly fuck Dorothy”
Uh-huh. Because that’s obviously what telling Joyce about her feelings would entail. Not that you’re even replying to a comment encouraging her to do that.
4. Again, umbrella terms, but also. “So many people” think that because it matches their own lived experiences.
Heteronormativity is a hell of a thing, and some people do identify as bi before coming out as gay.
It can be frustrating when you’re looking for bi representation, but it isn’t inherently evil of someone else to say, “Wow, I find Dorothy so relatable right now, this was exactly me before I came to terms with being a lesbian.”
This feels like that inappropriate guy in Love Actually. I’m picturing Dorothy going to Joyce and Joe’s wedding and taking stalkery Joyce photos, then showi g up at their door with signs.
1. “All right” is The Correctness. “Alright” is an assortment of English alphabet letters that have no purpose in life.
2. Dorothy. Dorothy. You gotta tell her. (yeah, yeah, i know you ain’t gonna.)
While I don’t think it would be the case, there’s potential for a lot more suffering if she confessed she had a crush.
Between Joyce questioning their past and future behavior on what she should and shouldn’t do, Walky’s view on whether or not the cleavage pic was cheating, and the drama that could come from Becky if she got a bug up her butt about it, there could be a lot more suffering than Dorothy not telling Joyce how attractive she is in her sexiest sweater vest.
I’d keep it to myself.
Joyce doesn’t need to know unless Dorothy acts on those feelings.
A properly stated clear and believable rejection usually helps make the feelings go away, after which they can be friends again. I mean, most people can handle mild physical or even romantic attraction to a friend and remain friends, but some people (and some extreme levels of attraction for a lot more people) can get in the way of actually being a friend instead of just acting like one.
Regardless of how far back some readers called it, it’s been like 12 hours since Dorothy realized her feelings.
The idea that she’s not only suffering from not having said anything, but that if she doesn’t say anything it will affect their friendship feels like early days.
Not to forget that they’re both in relationships with other people; there’s no need to potentially blow up the spot at this time.
Y’all may be right that saying something might help, or even might need to be said for Dorothy’s peace of mind, but if I were Dorothy, I’d definitely give myself more time to reflect on my feelings before sharing them with Joyce, if at all.
Dorothy only just recognized her feelings, but they’ve been causing some suffering from her and affecting he friendship for a bit now. I do think she should give it time– it’s possible that just acknowledging her feelings will help lessen some of her struggles. It’d also be great if she could talk about it, but a lot of those close to her might not feel like the right people to start with (those people being Joyce, Walky, people who are friends with her but closer to Joyce, Amber…). Maybe she could talk to her therapist. Or Leslie.
That said, I *want* to see her tell Joyce because I want to watch what happens, so I’m not in the stands chanting, “Take a rational and measured approach to this, Dorothy!” Comic time is too slow for that.
I know we only just learned Dorothy’s been pining for Joyce, but it’s clearly been going on for some time and it’s reasonable to assume it’s part of why Dorothy has been stressed and depressed since at least the timeskip.
It’s not like Dorothy just woke up today, being attracted to Joyce; even before she was ready to admit what was going on, she still all but said out loud, “I gave up Yale for you.” (Not the entire reason, I’m sure, but part of it!) And, of course, comics like this, where we now know (per Word of Willis on public Patreon posts) she was full of confused, frustrated pining.
I also agree that it would be BETTER for Dorothy to take some time and process this, and to come out as bi without necessarily confessing her feelings to Joyce, but also, it took years to get here, and it’s already gonna take probably years to see Joyce realize Dorothy has feelings for her even if Dorothy only waits a week. So.
I keep hearing people say she’s going to develop TRUST ISSUES if more than one female friend turns out to be in love with her, and that is just a very weird thing to say.
If the case were that her friends had no real interest in her beyond these romantic feelings and they dropped her when she didn’t reciprocate, *then* I could see her developing trust issues. That’s something a lot of people experience, especially women who believe a guy is their friend and then find out that there wasn’t actual value for their friendship.
But that’s very much *not* what’s happening here, so.
Every time I read someone saying it, I just want to look directly into the camera like I’m on The Office because I have been that woman*, and yeah, this is so completely different, not just because Dorothy and Becky are girls or queer.
I feel like Joyce herself would be furious that anyone is implying that Dorothy having (unrequited) feelings for her would even make her a little bit uncomfortable, much less give her trust issues. Even if it did make her a tiny bit uncomfortable, she’d be so determined to make sure Dorothy knows it’s okay and that they don’t have to stop being friends… sigh.
* Not a woman, but I identified as one at the time, and it’s been three guys so far who I thought were a platonic friend, two of which knew I (thought I) was a lesbian, and were also older than me, and also decided to confess their feelings late at night during what I thought was a platonic sleepover, lol. The third guy was definitely pretending to be my friend in hopes of hooking up with me, but one of the first two? Despite how super awkward and uncomfortable that situation was? Despite the fact that he was the second guy in a row to do exactly the same thing? We’re still friends! And I have somehow managed not to develop a complex about guy friends. Weird of me, I guess, being able to emotionally handle a development like that when I was fourteen, when obviously Joyce is gonna shatter into a million pieces despite being legally an adult.
Yeahhh the fact of the matter is if you have a community and people date within it your friends and community members are gonna have crushes on each other and sometimes you. This can be *annoying* sometimes, especially if some people proceed to be weird about it after you confess to or reject them, but this seems… Normal to me. I feel like the only way this would not be normal would be if you were under the assumption you only had to worry about this happening with opposite sex friendships and were uncomfortable with that not being the case, which… Is homophobic? I promise people are capable of being normal with people who they’ve had crushes on and/or dated. People in this comic do it all the goddamn time I don’t know why commenters are harping on it here.
You and I have very different ideas of what trauma is if you think questioning your behavior on how you’ve acted and should act towards a friend who admitted attraction to you counts.
I was speaking of the potential of EVERYTHING I mentioned all going in the WORST possible way as possibly being a lot more suffering.
Not JUST considering her behavior with Dorothy.
And I said I doubted it would happen.
I also never said Dorothy should question her behavior or even that Joyce should (I assume you meant Joyce there, but just clarifying if not).
But I do believe Joyce WOULD.
I think she would think about all the times Walky, Sarah, or Becky made reference to how close they are, how she calls Dorothy perfect and loves her, how Dorothy held her hands while they masturbated, how she drunkenly cuddled in Dorothy’s arms, how Dorothy sent her a cleavage pic, and wonder if anything she did made Dorothy like her romantically, how she feels about Dorothy’s feelings, if she has romantic feelings in return, if she should get advice from anyone, if it’s ok to talk to others about it without Dorothy’s ok, and lastly, if she doesn’t return Dorothy’s feelings at all, or not at the moment, would it still be ok to do any and all things she did before without making Dorothy feel awkward, bad, or lonely that they’re not together.
Joyce has made a lot of improvement in being considerate of others, and even if she wouldn’t have to be more considerate of her behavior with Dorothy, she’d almost certainly think about if she should.
And if she overthought it, that could lead to suffering.
I think so, too.
I also think Dorothy will be fine.
Which is why I don’t think Dorothy needs to tell Joyce anything at the moment.
But if the metric for needing to say anything is suffering, there’s more potential of suffering due to telling vs not telling at this moment in time.
More chance of suffering? Probably not.
More potential for suffering? Probably so.
Only if you agree that there’s actually any potential “suffering” for Joyce in the equation, which, you know, I don’t. So cancel that out.
Then there’s Walky, who you’re assuming is going to suffer as a result of Dorothy telling him she’s bi, or interested in Joyce, but who you’re assuming won’t suffer at all as long as Dorothy just……… keeps the fact that she’s in love with someone else to herself.
I am assuming you can see why I might disagree with that second proposition.
Anyway, the only one we actually know is hurting is Dorothy, who has been visibly in pain for in-universe months, but sure. Maybe Joyce might hypothetically experience some discomfort, and maybe Walky would be better off continuing to date someone who’s in denial about her sexuality, rather than having an adult conversation about it. I guess those are also possibilities.
I’m not assuming anything.
I’ve said at least twice that I don’t think anything would happen if she shared her feelings.
On top of that, I specifically mentioned Dorothy cheating in regards to Walky, not Dorothy being bi or even liking Joyce (he’s probably already suspected it).
But Dorothy obviously felt like she was cheating and even felt the need to apologize to Walky because of it.
If Walky felt the same, that would be suffering (I doubt he would because intent matters and that wasn’t her intent).
Also, I don’t think Dorothy is in love with Joyce; I think she’s too new to these feelings to know what they are beyond attraction (which is all the more reason to not say anything until she’s had more than a few hours to let it marinate).
Consequently, I don’t think her feelings for Joyce are her main issue for the past few weeks, cuz if they were, it diminishes her very real struggles to a crush she didn’t even know she had.
Lastly, you do realize that there’s a big difference between being in denial about your sexuality and telling anyone what your sexuality is, right?
There’s also a big difference between telling Walky she’s bi and telling Walky she wants Joyce.
These are separate, but related things that you are conflating together.
Unless you think that you have to go with the Becky approach about your sexuality to not be in denial, which is a fair view to take.
1. If you don’t actually think Dorothy would hurt anyone by telling Joyce and/or Walky about her feelings, whyyyy are you still arguing that she shouldn’t tell anyone?
2. In this hypothetical scenario where Walky does think the photo counts as cheating, you… do realize that’s not an argument against telling him about it, right. We can agree that Walky deserves to make an informed decision about his relationship with Dorothy, right?
3. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about whether or not Dorothy is in love with Joyce, but goodness, why would that “diminish” her struggle?
4. “there’s a big difference between being in denial about your sexuality and telling anyone what your sexuality is”
yes, that difference is literally called the closet.
I’m going to assume you just mean Dorothy doesn’t have to tell specific people, although again, why you’d be arguing against her telling them if you don’t think it’ll hurt anybody is beyond me, but seriously. The state of “not being in denial about your sexuality but not telling anyone what it is” is called being in the closet.
5. “There’s also a big difference between telling Walky she’s bi and telling Walky she wants Joyce.”
I notice that you have changed the wording here so that it’s no longer telling Walky that she has feelings for Joyce but telling Walky that she “wants” Joyce, which I assume you consider to be oversharing. But there’s literally no reason Dorothy has to phrase things that way.
6. “Unless you think you have to go with the Becky approach about your sexuality to not be in denial”
It’s so funny, because like, there was this whole arc of this strip where Joyce was constantly “reminding” Becky that she didn’t need to tell anyone she was a lesbian if she didn’t want to.
Do you remember that arc. Do you remember how Joyce was doing that because she was still deeply uncomfortable with Becky’s sexuality herself, and projecting…….?
Like, Dorothy telling Walky and Joyce that she’s bi would not be Being Becky. Her telling Walky and Joyce that she has feelings for Joyce would not be Being Becky.
But you should honestly maybe sit with yourself and ask yourself why you asked this last question, and whether or not there’s some part of you that thinks Becky telling everyone she’s a lesbian loudly and proudly was, like, wrong of her.
Like, is this a “devil’s advocate” conversation for you. Because if it is, I’m just gonna stop responding. The devil doesn’t need any more advocates, and there are plenty of people who seem to sincerely believe that Dorothy telling Joyce about her crush would be harmful. I’d rather expend energy talking to those people.
1. Because you kept replying to me and misunderstanding me. I hate to be misunderstood.
2. I don’t believe it’s cheating, so I don’t think it’s worth telling. And for people who have actually cheated, I don’t believe in telling people just to assuage one’s guilt. Telling your partner because you legitimately want to make amends and/or give them the choice to leave you, yes. Telling them because you don’t like the guilt of it, no, because then you’re just trying pass your bad feelings onto them.
3. If her struggle is ONLY because of her crush, then she has no real concerns over her path in life and just needed the love of a good woman. But her concerns are real world concerns and should not be fixed by just finding the love of a good woman.
4. Yes, in denial and in the closet are different. We were discussing being in denial. Bringing up being in the closet as if that was always part of the discussion is moving the goalposts.
5. They’re synonymous to me.
6. I don’t think it’s wrong. That’s why I said it was a fair point. I do think it was unnecessary to tell random strangers she was a lesbian as her one and only conversation with said strangers. There are people who don’t know her name, but know she”s a lesbian. Since I don’t think acknowledging your sexuality to yourself is being in denial, then I obviously don’t think the opposite end of the spectrum, the Becky method, is necessary. But I never said it was wrong.
This whole back and forth you’ve had the bad habit of either not reading what I said or reading more into what I said.
You say you’d rather talk to people who genuinely believe it would be harmful?
I told you multiple times that I did not actually believe there would be any problem.
That’s exactly what I mean when I say you have not been reading what I’ve actually said or that you read more into what I’ve said than is there.
Okay, I said I was going to say that, so I said it, but honestly if it were me and my primary complaint was being misunderstood, that would really cheese me off, so here. You do not have to respond to this if you don’t want to, though.
1. I don’t think I misunderstood you as badly as you think I did. I did see your occasional disclaimers that you didn’t really think Joyce or Walky would be hurt. But they weren’t included in every comment — for example, your opening salvos to Steamweed and your first response to Regret — and you did keep arguing for the hypothetical situation where Joyce and Walky were hurt. It… really seemed like you were invested in at least the idea of there being greater potential harm from Dorothy speaking her truth, not to put too fine a point on it. So that’s what I was responding to, and disagreeing with: even hypothetically, the most I see is potential for mild discomfort from Joyce, and if Walky would be hurt, that’s all the more reason for Dorothy to tell him, in my mind. (See my response to the “cheating” concept below.)
You’re right that I misread or mistyped the bit with Dorothy versus Joyce in my second comment. I should have said, “you said there was a greater potential for suffering, but sure, all you meant was that Joyce would have to think about her and Dorothy’s friendship”. I would have been equally as skeptical, but suffering is such a loaded word for Joyce being, like, at most a little awkward for a bit.
2. We are definitely gonna have to agree to disagree about cheating, gosh, haha. I think cheaters absolutely need to tell their partners so that they can make an informed decision about the relationship, which is probably going to end. I have no patience for cheating at all, and it’s not about assuaging the cheater’s guilt even a little. I think there are very few situations where a relationship is salvageable after such a serious breach of trust, but they need honest and open communication. The only acceptable alternative, to me, is breaking up with the partner you’ve cheated on, but pretending it’s for some other reason you think will hurt them less. And even that feels kind of like one last betrayal, because you’re deciding for them that this is better.
3. The part where we disagree about the intensity of Dorothy’s feelings is really the most salient bit. If I agreed that Dorothy only felt a fleeting surface-level attraction to Joyce, I’d still support her coming out to all her friends and her family and anyone else she wanted to, but I’d be a lot less sure that she needs to tell Joyce or Walky.
I also still don’t at all agree that it would diminish Dorothy’s arc. It’s part of her arc, and it’s a big part of what has been causing her pain, but that doesn’t make it the whole thing. Dorothy’s arc has been about feeling like she no longer knows who she is: not being sure she wants to go to Yale isn’t a bigger part of that than realizing she’s bi and that a lot of her recent actions might have had subconscious motives she’s not proud of.
Also? Even if it was as simple as her “needing the love of a good woman”? Come on. Let’s not pretend that it wouldn’t make any difference that the “good woman” is her first bisexual crush. It’s not the same trite story that it would be if she’d realized she needed the love of a good man. It just isn’t.
Maybe someday we’ll all be so spoiled for queer representation and queer love stories that it’ll be just as trite and disappointing, but we’re not there yet, and frankly we aren’t even moving in that direction. The direction we are currently moving in is one where DoA itself is gonna be forcibly recategorized as pornography for having trans characters in it.
4. We were discussing whether or not Dorothy should tell people she’s bi. I don’t really see that as moving goal posts, especially after you said there was a difference between being in denial “and telling anyone what your sexuality is” (emphasis mine).
As I pointed out in my original comment, I don’t think you meant to imply Dorothy should never tell anyone at all, but that is kind of what you said? And then you went on to say the alternative was Being Becky, which further made it sound like you were saying she should be closeted.
5. Well, they’re not synonymous, and also a lot of people have been talking about Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce in simultaneously very negative ways and very crude ways; see other comments on this very page about how Dorothy is obviously going to stick her tongue down Joyce’s throat any second, or how the rest of us must want her to fuck Joyce in public. So. Don’t be surprised if you run into other commentators who also wince at this conflation.
6. Since I don’t think acknowledging your sexuality to yourself is being in denial, then I obviously don’t think the opposite end of the spectrum, the Becky method, is necessary.
Honestly, I am starting to wonder if you know what being closeted means?
I don’t mean that in a mean way. I know I was kind of snarky about Becky before; I’ll admit you touched a nerve there, because the way Becky nuked her closet from orbit was genuinely SO cathartic and wonderful to read, and I don’t like reading it described as if she was oversharing.
But yeah, I am genuinely wondering. Because you keep saying stuff that sounds like as long as Dorothy isn’t actively in denial in her own mind, she isn’t in the closet.
But being in the closet is what happens after you stop being in denial. You know you’re queer, but you are keeping it to yourself and pretending to be not-queer.
So no, Dorothy cannot keep her sexuality entirely to herself without also being in the closet. Because that is what being in the closet is.
7. Anyway I hope you feel less misunderstood now. But again, you don’t actually have to respond. It’s okay not to, if you don’t want to keep talking about this. Goodness knows I am very tired now, heh.
Also I guess I misspoke up there, because it’s not really that I would rather be arguing with someone who actually believed Dorothy’s feelings were inherently harmful. It’s just that if I have to argue about this, I’d rather it be serving more of a purpose than just talking past someone who mostly agreed with me.
1. I do sincerely believe there is greater potential for suffering.
I do not believe that potential would become reality.
And I think the biggest issue is how much of Dorothy’s suffering the past few weeks is due to her realizations about her sexuality and her feelings about Joyce.
You seem to think it’s a bigger part than I do, so of course you’d be resistant to my suggestion that there’d be potentially more suffering because that would have to involve a hell of a lot more suffering from your pov than what would make sense for the potential I described.
2. Ok. Agree to disagree.
3. I think that Dorothy spent the better part of her teenage life working towards the goal of becoming president, of being good and doing good, of being the best she could and trying to uplift others to be the best they could.
She ended her relationships with both Danny and Walky for it (not for the same reasons but all related to her goal).
Then she found out she couldn’t help Walky and herself, and then ended up hurting him.
She realized that despite how she saw herself, she had a hard time getting people to view her as leadership material (going up against Roz for RA).
She admired Amber and Amazigirl, but didn’t realize how much of a balancing act it was for them to keep it together until she saw some things.
Add in the Yale thing, Raidah convincing her being president required being terrible, her acting out from being horny and jealous…you get my long winded point, I see her struggles as continuing from last semester, not just as being part of this semester.
But her feelings for Joyce are a new development of this semester, and so cannot be a big part of resolving her issues since they started long before that, hence it would be diminishing them.
That said, I do believe that I have not been considering her realization of her sexuality as weighty as you have, and have definitely considered it less weighty than her feelings for Joyce, so that’s probably another reason why I felt it diminished her struggle to solve it like that.
4. My initial comment was about Dorothy telling others she had a crush on Joyce, not about telling others she’s bi.
When I said there was potential for greater suffering, it was in regards to admitting the crush (and cheating), not being bi.
When I said Dorothy needs to think about her feelings before saying anything, that was about the crush, not about being bi.
You brought up being in denial, in one comment, then you brought up being in the closet in a different comment; prior to that, I hadn’t been talking about it.
And I specifically corrected you when you did, saying I was talking about her cheating on Walky, not about coming out as bi.
If you read my words again, you’ll notice that I never said Dorothy shouldn’t tell anyone she was bi, I said she shouldn’t tell them about her crush, but you seem to have had me equating the two.
When I got into the difference between being in denial and not telling anyone, that’s only because you brought it up and was inferring that I supported her dating Walky while in denial, which I never said.
That’s also why I brought up the Becky method as, since I never brought up being in denial, I legitimately considered you felt something closer to how she went about it was necessary; I wasn’t being sarcastic when I said it was fair.
Only after that did you bring up being in the closet – which is why I said you were moving the goalposts because the conversation went from never mentioning denial, to mentioning denial, to mentioning the closet, which we both agree are different, yet related.
5. They’re not ALWAYS synonymous. I do think they’re synonymous in this case, as they both are synonymous with caring and desire, so I stand by it…but we can agree to disagree.
6. The reason why I said being in denial and being in the closet are different is because I acknowledge you can be in the latter and not the former. I don’t know what about my words makes you think I didn’t understand, because it doesn’t read like that to me.
If it’s because of the Becky thing, I explained why I brought that up.
Also, look at your quote of me: “ Since I don’t think acknowledging your sexuality to yourself is being in denial, then I obviously don’t think the opposite end of the spectrum, the Becky method, is necessary.” The key part of that is “in denial”. I don’t think it’s necessary to not be in DENIAL. Of course, sharing to that degree isn’t necessary to not be in the closet, either, but that wasn’t what I was talking about.
Remember, you brought up denial and you brought up the closet; I was never talking about either of those positions/stances/whatever the right word is (I’m tired of my own writing now) until you did. I was only ever talking about the crush and the “cheating” prior to that.
7. I do feel better, thank you.
And I get it, you have some significant views on this, while I, unfortunately, just have this hard to resist compulsion to explain myself towards any perceived misunderstanding.
It’s not the same energy, and it sucks if I was hitting sore points in that situation.
You might not come back to see this, but, despite having felt misunderstood on some things, I want you to know that I do feel this was a worthwhile conversation.
— Yeah, even if I didn’t think Dorothy was suffering more than you do, I’d still disagree, because I don’t think there’s even any potential suffering for Joyce, and because I think if any of this would hurt Walky, that’s all the more reason for Dorothy to tell him.
— I don’t actually think that’s why she broke up with Danny at all; I think she broke up with Danny because he wasn’t listening to her or respecting her. Danny has been a great boyfriend for Sal, but he and Dorothy weren’t in a great place. Similarly, she was so moved by Walky because he believed in her (generally), not just because he specifically thought she was gonna be president someday.
I also see her struggled as continuing from last semester, but Word of Willis is that he’s known she was bi since before the timeskip, so that’s not really disqualifying for them having been part of it.
Also, most importantly, I don’t think her coming out to Joyce or telling Joyce about her feelings is going to resolve everything for Dorothy. I just think it will significantly relief the pain she’s been in.
Also worth noting: Dorothy has told Joyce about not going to Yale, and about not being sure she wants to be president; she’s told Walky about both things; and yet, getting that weight off her chest hasn’t made her feel all that much better, that we have seen.
— I mean, I understand that you don’t feel like we’ve ever been talking about being in denial or being closeted, but you didn’t actually start this thread.
You first replied to Steamweed’s top-level comment saying, “You’ve gotta tell her, Dorothy,” by asking why, and other people (not just me) have tried to explain that the “why” is because Dorothy is in pain.
I would argue that everyone in this thread apart from you has always been talking about Dorothy needing to come out of the closet to both her crush and her boyfriend.
So, I wasn’t moving goal posts on purpose: we just didn’t understand where each other’s posts were when the conversation started, I think. There’s been a lot of incompatible, silent, base assumptions in this thread! Not because either of us are trying to misunderstand each other, it’s just kind of happening.
— Sorry, but I do have to emphasize this:
Not only can you be in denial but not in the closet, you kind of can’t be in the closet IF you’re in denial. Because being in the closet is about the pain of knowing you are queer and not feeling like you can tell anyone else. If you’re still in denial, you aren’t hiding anything from anyone else on purpose, so it’s just a different state of existing altogether.
Also, this?
Of course, sharing to that degree isn’t necessary to not be in the closet
It kiiiiind of is, is the thing.
Because of how society works. Because the default assumption in almost all still living societies is that you’re straight and cis. Because even if you really, really don’t pass as either, most strangers are still going to assume you’re just weird instead of correctly guessing your identity.
This is also why Becky spent $20 on a very queer haircut. Because even she doesn’t actually want to have to scream it from the roof tops all the time forever.
There are other options! Like wearing very prominent pronoun bin in pride flag colors and hoping people know what that means.
But like. Speaking as someone who wouldn’t self-describe as closeted, but who is still very much not out at work most of the time: lol. Lmao.
We don’t actually want to yell about it all the time, but it’s either that or let people assume we are straight and cis, and the latter is a kind of slow suffocation.
– I should have been more clear, but I tend to over explain myself, as you may have noticed, and I’ve been trying to resist.
Dorothy broke up with Danny because he treated her goal of becoming president as a phase and because he followed her here with no real goal in mind other than computer science classes and their relationship.
When I wrote about why she ended their relationship, I meant her goal of being president (he didn’t respect it as you said) and that he didn’t have his own goal other than being with her (which I consider wanting him to do better).
She even said breaking up was doing him a kindness and that it would have been kinder if she’d done it months earlier.
– We do not know what Steamweed meant without asking for clarification. They only gave the clarification of suffering and that Dorothy needed to tell Joyce specifically.
You’re saying that you believe, and that you think others believe, that Steamweed meant coming out as bi.
I say that makes less sense than to believe they meant the crush.
Here’s why: the significance, of whatever she has to tell, to both herself and Joyce, and that she’s suffering from due to not talking.
The crush is much more significant for Dorothy than coming out as bi because 2.5 people already know it, and it’s more significant for Joyce, because coming out it would simply be finding out another friend was queer.
But telling Joyce she has a crush makes more sense as a source of suffering that has to be specifically told to her as that involves unexpressed and possibly unrequited feelings that only one other person knows about, and that only because he figured it out.
If you’re telling me that I’m the odd one out in thinking Steamweed meant the crush instead of coming out as bi, while certainly possible, that’s hard to believe.
– I said “The reason why I said being in denial and being in the closet are different is because I acknowledge you can be in the latter (the closet) and not the former (denial).”
I gotta say, I don’t get you with this one.
Did you misread me?
Did you just prefer I said it differently?
Or do you legitimately feel I’m missing something?
Because I’m not seeing much of a difference here.
I assume you wanted me to say “you can’t be in the latter if you’re in the former”.
If so, I got it now.
If not, I don’t know what I’m still missing.
– As for being like Becky being necessary to say one is not in the closet, Becky’s behavior is the minority in this comic.
Now if you believe Dina, Sierra, Ruth, Carla, Marcie, Leslie etc., are all in the closet, then there’s nothing I can say.
But if you believe any of them are not in the closet, then you’re acknowledging that sharing to the degree Becky did is not necessary.
And I hope you realize that when I say “sharing like Becky”, I’m being literal.
I consider displaying colors, flags, and pins as sharing less than what Becky originally did.
But that’s honestly probably more to do with the yelling part (I’m not big on making scenes in public), than the random strangers part, since strangers can also see the displays.
— I mean, you explained yourself fine, I just don’t think I agree?
But then again, I actually don’t think her specific literal goal was ever all that important to the narrative. I had always kind of taken it to be short-hand for “this character is both very ambitious and very altruistic”.
Which I think it very quickly stopped functioning as, if it had ever served that purpose, when the reality of Obama’s disappointing presidency set in.
(He was a lot better than a Republican would have been, and the ACA is generally huge in ways a lot of people don’t realize today because they don’t realize preexisting conditions are no longer a thing. But I do think in 2010, when this comic started, we all thought he’d be very different than he wound up being.
And then after two terms of that, Trump.)
So. I’m not Willis, I can’t speak for Willis, but I would not be surprised if the seeds of Dorothy’s course correction hadn’t been sown a lot earlier than the campaign against Roz revealing that Dorothy, for all her lovability throughout, wasn’t yet (at 18) a particularly adept politician.
So yeah I think this is just something we really disagree on, rather than you not being clear enough.
I totally get that you don’t mean Dorothy literally ended her relationships because they were incompatible with her goal of becoming president. But I really don’t think her specific goal has ever been as central a driving force for Dorothy as what she’s more recently shrunk it down to, which was: help as many people as possible.
I’d still kind of like to see a flash forward to President Keener, even though intellectually I know it’s a… let’s say fraught career opportunity, heh, and that Dorothy might be much happier and healthier if we instead flash forward to see her middle aged with a low-stakes job and a satisfying relationship and a bunch of cats.
As for doing Danny a kindness… yes, she said that, and I do think she meant it, but I don’t think she was under any illusion that it was the only reason she was breaking up with him, either; and imho, the sequence leading up to the breakup, where Danny misread Dorothy’s mood and tone a whole bunch of times in a way he could only have been doing by not really listening to her… I think the most charitable interpretation of that sequence is that Willis wanted to show us that they weren’t on the same page. It culminated in his dismissal of her goals, but those smaller instances of him ignoring her body language, tone, expression, and even the words coming out of her mouth were all important, too, and none of them had to do with her goal of being president.
But we can disagree on that. And this arc isn’t finished yet, so we don’t yet know where Willis is going with Dorothy.
— I mean, yes, I think you’re the odd one out, in this thread, because all the rest of us have been united in saying that Dorothy needs to tell Joyce and Walky, and that she is currently in pain because she isn’t telling them. You’re the one who’s been arguing that it’s not that big of a deal.
I think it’s a natural step from there to supposing you might also be alone in not talking about this in terms of coming out / being in the closet / etc, yes.
But that’s just my opinion, of course.
— Yes, the difference between what you said and what you could have hypothetically said here is significant, but I wasn’t trying to correct your wording out of pedantry.
I have legitimately been trying to ask if you know what being closeted is, and trying to explain it.
You still haven’t said you know what being closeted is, and you also haven’t said you have any kind of experience with real-life queerness, either yourself or through friends, and you’re still talking about Becky’s approach to coming out as if it only matters in comparison to other characters in this comic rather than as in comparison to real people like me who are reading it.
So, I’ve been increasingly getting the sense that no, you don’t have any real-life experience with it, and that I should be explaining more and assuming less.
Which is why I keep trying to explain the difference here.
Anyway:
Your points of comparison are Dina, Sierra, Ruth, Carla, Marcie, and Leslie (plus more unnamed characters), all of whom you suggest are not closeted without being Becky.
Let’s eliminate Sierra from contention here, since we actually don’t know much about her at all, but the fact that Joyce (who’s both pretty oblivious AND still very sheltered) knows Sierra is in a poly relationship suggests that, off screen, Sierra is actually pretty loud about both her identity and her relationship status.
Now let’s tackle Ruth, who said to Jennifer “and I think we found out I like girls together, wasn’t that fun”; whose own brother asked her if she was a lesbian, and she said she didn’t know; who was only really identified on-panel explicitly as bi when Joyce tried to police her sexuality: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/02-ill-leave-you-a-phantom/murdering/
Like, yeah, Ruth isn’t Being Becky about her sexuality, but because she isn’t doing that, other characters are assuming she’s straight, or assuming she’s a lesbian. She’s having to correct them.
And she definitely isn’t out to her whole family (there’s just no way she’s told her horrible abusive grandfather), so she is still partly in the closet in one of the most significant ways one can be.
Carla: actually a perfect demonstration of what I’m talking about! You consider her to be less loud about her identity than Becky, but she was actually SO publicly out that she was in the news. She’s complained that it’s only freshmen like Joyce who don’t know, and Joyce finding out and being heckin weird about it while she tried to be supportive was just one of many exhausting experiences we face, and why Becky’s nuking of the closet was so cathartic.
Carla also tries to make her asexuality as obvious as possible, taking pretty much every opportunity she gets to reassert her sex-repulsion, but honestly she’s still being too subtle for a lot of readers, who have needed reminders of the years.
Marcie: here’s another character where we actually have no idea how loud she is or isn’t about her sexuality, because we haven’t seen her much, and what we have seen is mostly her interacting with the same close friend group. But we’ve still seen Marcie struggling with Malaya not realizing she was interested, which could well be because Malaya had assumed she was straight.
Leslie: again, we don’t actually know how obvious she is in her personal life. It would definitely be…….. frowned upon if she went around telling students at IU about her sexuality at the drop of a hat. She did come out to Joyce’s gender studies class, but only partway through the year, when it was defensibly relevant to the material, and in that coming out speech, she talked about how she spent a long time in the closet and even married a man, and how her whole family disowned her when she came out, so.
Anyway, I don’t think this crop of ladies was as good an example of “not like Becky but not in any way closeted” as you intended them to be.
Dina first of all benefits from always standing next to Becky and often holding hands with her, so she doesn’t need to be loud herself to not be assumed straight.
Second of all, Dina has gleefully engaged in yelling “BECKY AND I HAVE FUCKED”, so I don’t think she would be quiet about her sexuality by preference in Becky’s absence, even though she’s described herself as “unconcerned” rather than “questioning”.
– I felt I wasn’t clear because I basically feel the same way you do, but the fact that you felt you had to say that meant that I didn’t convey that.
And apparently still didn’t.
– Yumi, AK, Regret, Erik, and Clif; I can’t speak for them, but it looks to me that they’re also talking about the crush, not coming out the closet in and of itself.
Maybe I’m misreading their comments, but if I take the crush out of the equation, a lot of their comments make less sense.
So I think this is a you thing.
It is true that I do believe this crush is not that big a deal, and it does look like most of them feel that she should talk to her about the crush, but that IS the crush. While talking about it will also include coming out, that doesn’t seem to be their focus to me.
– I don’t know what more you want me to say, so just assume that I don’t know.
That said, do not explain it to me any further, because if I haven’t gotten it with this conversation, I don’t think I’m going to have a sudden epiphany.
As for my personal experiences, I didn’t know you wanted them, nor do I feel the need to share them to validate what I’m saying, especially since what I’ve been saying clearly makes you think I don’t understand.
So I don’t know what personal experience I or the people close to me have had that would suddenly make you think I did understand.
So just treat it as I don’t.
– I literally said yelling at strangers.
None of those people do that, including Carla.
Also, on the topic of Carla, I was talking about who she found attractive, not her being trans.
She’s not yelling at strangers that she’s asexual (and maybe I don’t understand asexuality, because I assumed you can be asexual while also being straight, bi, or gay, but you brought up none of those).
Dina isn’t yelling at strangers that she’s…whatever she is. She is in a lesbian relationship, but she also talked about how she could scientifically break down Joe by experimenting with sexual pleasure on him.
Also, I thought it was stated that sexuality remains the same between universes, and Dina dated Walky and Mike in the Walkyverse, so is she bi or was she in denial?
Since she never seemed to question herself, I’m going to go with bi.
Tangent aside, yelling their sexuality at strangers is what I’ve been talking about and no one is doing that except Becky (unless Dina told some random that she had sex with Becky and I’m forgetting it).
But even in regards to Carla being trans, Joyce, who has known her for months and would probably call her a friend, didn’t know Carla was until last week.
Carla was not hiding it, but she also was not literally yelling it to strangers or friends.
All that aside, it seems you have answered my question: you do not feel like everyone has to literally yell their sexuality to strangers. You seem to equate some of their behavior to that, but I think I stressed enough that I was being literal, so I don’t equate any of their behavior to the same level as hers.
— While talking about it will also include coming out
Yes, exactly.
My argument is that no one is explicitly saying she should come out because the rest of us are assuming those two things would be simultaneous and that it didn’t actually need to be stated that Dorothy coming out was a big part of why she’s in pain and why she needs to say something to Joyce/Walky.
— I asked you if you knew what being closeted meant and you never answered that question, and you continued to talk like being in the closet and being in denial weren’t mutually exclusive, so yeah, I after a bunch of back and forth along those lines, I eventually said hey it seems like maybe you don’t have personal experience here.
I was trying to avoid making that assumption!
But you know, I wanna drop this thread, because I certainly agree that there’s no point in further belaboring the issue.
— I am sighing over this distinction. Becky didn’t only yell at strangers. I thought you were being hyperbolic, and I was only cooperating with that characterization of Becky’s loud proud continuous coming-out because I thought you, too, were being hyperbolic.
My point about Becky-style coming out was that if one does not make a point of deliberately coming out to every person one meets, one inevitably winds up being assumed to be straight and or cis by some of the people in one’s life.
Becky’s refusal to do that was incredibly cathartic for me and for a lot of other readers.
That’s all.
As for Carla, yeah, she’s specifically homoromantic, and she’s been pretty loud about that too, though not as loud as she’s been about being sex-repulsed.
As for Dina, I only said she doesn’t need to speak up to be assumed not straight; for a lot of people, that’s good enough, but she’s also worn ace flag colors, IIRC! So yeah, she’s demisexual and biromantic or panromantic, as far as we know.
But yeah, we just had fully different definitions of Being Becky. I am a little stunned that you thought it was remotely conceivable that I was arguing for literally yelling at strangers, especially given that I was pretty clear, I thought, about what I was actually saying, but.
Feel free to stress you said you were being literal all you want, but like, I have ADHD and dyslexia, and you aren’t even consistently breaking up your paragraphs, so I think I’ve done an amazing job of following your replies anyway tbqh.
I was going to leave it alone, but I kept thinking about it, so I’ll try to make it short:
– I think it’s just you assuming everyone is on the same page as you when you’re actually the odd one out.
– You asked me if I knew what “in the closet” meant and I explained what it meant.
You then tried to explain it to me.
So I then used your same wording.
You still tried to explain it to me.
So if my explanation doesn’t work for you, and your own explanation doesn’t work for you, then no explanation will.
It really seems like you made up your mind and that it didn’t matter what I said, unless it was something specific to validate your assumption.
So since you were assuming anyway, I just gave you the go ahead.
I don’t actually doubt my own understanding of it.
– No one said yelling at strangers was the only thing Becky did, but I am saying she is the only one that did actually yell at strangers.
And I did make it clear that yelling at strangers was literally and specifically what I was talking about.
I wasn’t being hyperbolic; I was being literal, which is why I said “literally”.
So I was stunned that you didn’t get that I was actually talking about yelling.
I’ve already said that you either misread what I said or read more into what I said than was there; this is another moment of that.
– Lastly, saying “I have ADHD and dyslexia, and you aren’t even consistently breaking up your paragraphs” really doesn’t help.
Saying the first part makes your opinions on what I and everyone else meant and understood hold less weight, as who is to know if you really took in all that was written, that you didn’t miss a significant word or phrase?
So I’m going to treat it as if you did not say that.
But saying the second part, that I don’t consistently break up my paragraphs, just comes off as you blaming me for your own misunderstandings.
I hope this comment does not come off as harsh, but I feel like it might be, so I apologize if that is the case.
— Okay. I mean, you’re literally the only one assuming Dorothy isn’t in pain, so you’re already the odd one out in this thread, but like, whatever you wanna believe I guess.
— Don’t really think there’s anything to say about this point. I have had the very simple same issue with your use of closeted this whole time.
— You very much did just insist that because they aren’t yelling at strangers, they can’t be Being Becky about coming out, and you just said that you’d always said you were being very literal about the yelling, but whatever.
— Holy shit.
I get that you’re probably embarrassed that you took repeated pot shots at my ~ability to read your comments~ because I wasn’t responding to every single offhanded word you said, but holy shit.
Anyway we are super duper done. Say whatever you wanna in response to this because not only am I not going to go to the trouble of reading it, I’m also not going to be talking to you ever again???
Jesus, cbwroses. Just so you know, NOT the way to handle someone admitting they have disabilities, lmao.
Actually I’m gonna flag your last reply-able comment and my own, because if I’d seen that attitude in response to someone ELSE telling you they’ve got learning disabilities, I’d sure as hell flag it.
What a gross attitude to take.
Your comments are hard to read because you ramble and talk in circles and instead of ever, ever, EVER conceding a point, insist you didn’t say what you literally said. I was letting all of that slide, when I clearly shouldn’t have been. Clearly I should never have let you get away with ignoring that I was always talking about Coming Out AND the crush, never claiming that anyone else had been talking about “only” coming out, or that I very clearly and repeatedly said “cis AND OR straight” but then you complained that Carla being very publicly out about being trans didn’t count because you were only talking about sexuality. And you ignored my point about how she was IN THE NEWS and complained in-comic that freshmen (like Joyce!!!) don’t know. And you ignored my point that Sierra MUST have very loudly told Joyce about her sexuality off-panel, because there’s no way Joyce would pick up on her being poly from osmosis.
No, you pick and choose what parts of my comments you wanna deign with responses, you ignore anything that’s inconvenient for you, and you just pretend you’ve never said any of the actual words you’ve said once they’re inconvenient for proving whatever point you think you were making, and you continuously accuse me of misreading you or failing to see when REALLY we’re in agreement, condescending as hell.
No one’s actually going to see this mess because it’s buried several pages back, but I invite you to try your sneering attitude about learning disabilities somewhere anyone else in this comment section is gonna see it and see how that works out for you, lmao.
You have been exhausting to talk to, and I look forward to never doing it again. Goodbye.
You say you won’t read this, fine, but I’ll write it anyway, because I’m not going to let you say bs about me without replying:
– you keep moving the goalposts and you don’t even see it.
That remark was about you justifying your moving of the goalposts the first time by saying everyone else but me was on the same page as you regarding her pain being from her not confessing her sexuality vs not confessing the crush.
The source of the pain was the point.
Now simply saying “everyone thinks she is in pain” doesn’t change that the source of the pain is the point of contention.
– Yes, you had the very same issue that hasn’t made sense almost from the beginning.
When I say what you say almost word for word, and you still find fault, then your issue doesn’t make sense.
– Do you even know what you’re saying here?
You’re bringing this up like you contradicted me, but that IS what I’ve been saying.
On a scale of 1-10, Becky is an 11.
I say she’s a 11 because she yelled at strangers.
No one else yells at strangers, so no one else is an 11, and no one else is using the Becky method.
I have not contradicted myself, but the fact that you seem to think so really makes me question what you think I’m saying or what you think you’re saying.
– I haven’t taken any potshots at you, let alone repeatedly.
You have been misunderstanding me: that is an objective fact.
You didn’t take me at my word when I said I literally meant yelling.
You also assumed I thought Dorothy shouldn’t tell Walky she was bi (never said that) and that Becky yelling at strangers was wrong (I said that degree wasn’t necessary and not for me).
But saying you are not getting my point or you are not understanding my meaning, those are not potshots.
That you feel they are is probably something you should think about.
– As for flagging comments, you do you.
I didn’t attack you and even apologized if I came off the wrong way, but you thinking I meant something more than I actually did has become par for the course.
– This last part of your reply is just unfair and wrong.
Ramble and talk in circles? I said I over explain myself.
Never conceding the point? Twice I’ve agreed to disagree.
I also told you to just assume I don’t know what being closeted means because you kept harping on it.
– I did not respond to your breakdown of all the women because I was the one who brought them up, so it was MY criteria that was the point.
There was no need to respond about everything you said about them when you already acknowledged my point, that they weren’t yelling at strangers.
But the reason I didn’t say anything about Sierra, Ruth, Marcie, and Leslie specifically is because I didn’t disagree (though I do believe there is a strip where someone actually explains the polycule to Joyce).
I didn’t ignore it; I agreed with it, so felt no need to address it.
I guess you wanted a pat on the back?
The one or two other times when I felt we were in agreement and I said something was because I felt you didn’t think we were, which I admitted was on me, at least in regards to Dorothy dumping Danny.
– Yes, I pick and choose which part I want to respond to because I was only responding to stuff I disagreed with or felt was misunderstood.
You didn’t do the same?
You think you responded to every single I wrote? Ok.
– Don’t tell the lie that I deny anything I’ve said.
What I deny is your interpretation of what I said.
– And condescending?
You repeatedly tell me I’m the only one who read things a certain way.
You repeatedly tell me you don’t think I understand what “in the closet” means.
Then you try to use the fact that I didn’t volunteer my personal experience (which you never asked for prior to mentioning it nor are entitled to) as validation for your assumption.
And now you’re claiming that every time you misunderstood me, I just lied about what I really meant or said to…what? Continue having this enjoyable discussion with you?
THAT is condescending.
Not me pointing out your misunderstanding of me which you, again, have objectively done.
– As for a sneering attitude about learning disabilities, you really missed the mark on that one.
I do not have a learning disability, so if I chose the wrong words, you’d know better than me.
But when I repeatedly say you misunderstand me, and then you tell me you have learning disabilities that could possibly explain those misunderstandings, I can easily just say “Oh, that’s why they think that way! It’s not my words. It’s not the way I’m saying it. It’s their disabilities’ fault.”
But I didn’t say that.
I said I’m going to pretend you didn’t mention them because while I believe everything I’ve said was clear, I acknowledge the possibility that I just might not be able to see my mistake.
Even if you don’t like my word choice or even my mentioning it at all, the idea that I was sneering at you/your disabilities was all in your head.
…Well! I was looking for something different here, but uh:
@cbwroses: Please do not assume I was on your side/your area in any of this. Li offered far more reasonable interpretations of what I said. I think this conversation really wore on you– I hate being misunderstood, too, and ongoing back and forths in these comments can get me worked up– but you really started to come off as a jerk here.
One point that seems to be missing from the general discussion around being in the closest and all that– are you aware that many people consider being in the closest to be painful? This seems important when the discussion is around the idea of suffering.
High chance you’ll never see this, but I’m not looking to bring it to the current comments… but considerations on how being in the closest feels seem like a big piece that was missing in the conversation, maybe part of what both of you weren’t sure the other understood.
When I was in middle school, there was an English teacher who had a newspaper article on her wall titled “‘Alright’ Isn’t Right– But It Will Be,” and I still think about that when the topic comes up.
And yet I have had google drive tell me to change “all right” to “alright”, which means if it is still considered incorrect it won’t be for much longer.
Joyce and Dorothy will somehow wind up like that couple who were photographed kissing after getting knocked over by police in the 2011 Stanley Cup riots in Vancouver.
Yes, because more cheating and the ruination of Joyce’s relationship with a guy she loves and all the pain that entails is totally a thing to root for.
People having beef with the way languages change will never be less ridiculous to me, but especially so when that change happened like a century before they were born.
taffy
noun
taf·fy ˈta-fē
plural taffies
Synonyms of taffy
1 : a boiled candy usually of sugar, molasses or corn syrup, butter, and often vinegar and vanilla that is pulled until porous and glossy
2 : insincere flattery
3 : an ungovernable autist who only learns rules for the purpose of breaking them
Whatever else is going on here I, for one, am absolutely delighted to learn that at long last. Sarah is, barring possible unforeseen circumstances, going to get laid.
o7 <- saluting with an intent, serious fervor despite not giving one single damn about the military.
It’s both frustrating and hilarious when you can tell multiple people didn’t refresh the page before responding all at once. Frustrating because goddamn it why did seven people have to correct me about how many R’s are in Siera’s name. Hilarious because of course they wouldn’t have thought to refresh first, they’re just reading through and responding as they go.
I’d probably comment here a lot more if I wasn’t constantly refreshing to discover someone else already said what I wanted. I didn’t refresh before posting this though. Today I’ve decided to live dangerously
You know I’d probably make a lot more comments, but every time I do I hit referesh and someone’s already made the comment I was gonna make! Makes me feel so unoriginal
For some reason all I can think of is an older generation democrat standing across a river of lava screaming at Dorothy:
“You were the Chosen Candidate, Dorothy. It was said you would exploit the gays not join them. Balance the Senate, not leave it in rainbows!”
Doesn’t even need to be a Republican in the White house. Or Governors mansion. Or mayors office. When the orange dumpster fire is gone and replaced by a Democrat it still won’t be safe to protest all the bullshit the government hasn’t stopped doing.
There were police snipers on the buildings at the protests at IU, the university changed decades long protest policy overnight, and over 30 protestors were arrested, when Biden was president, not threatening to withhold federal funding.
A part of me feels like Willis doing a storyline on police brutality at campus protests and the horror that would befall Jocelyn if she were arrested would probably be a little too real right now.
Yeah, that’d be just too grim, and doesn’t really jive with the comic’s tone. I also don’t think we’re going to actually see the protest, as that would require developing more concrete details about Bulmeria (at the very least, designing flags), and that’s not the comic’s focus. I think the protest was included as a topical reference (when this was written a year ago) to signify Jocelyne’s moral character and spur some character development for Dorothy, nothing else. But I suppose I could be wrong!
A single, eh? Is he in the forbidden zone at the end of Beck, with his own halfbath? Or is he in the mirror of Carla’s room, and shares a halfbath with the Star Trek RA. Or a secret other place there’s singles.
asknfdja I just realized with how damn similar they look, that is a real possibility. (But also Jocelyn would probably be one of the best people Dorothy could talk to about this)
I think “moving on” from Joyce to Jocelyne would be a lot more likely if Dorothy’s interest in Joyce were primarily physical…? But, um. I don’t think that’s the case.
I think if we’re looking for non-Joyce options here, Amazi-Girl is a lot more plausible, since Dorothy’s also interested in her, and unlike Amber, Amazi-Girl has never made any kind of statement wrt her ability to be attracted to women.
You don’t think they share mannerisms, speech patterns, personality traits? You think Dorothy would be “moving on” if she tried to kiss Jocelyne because she reminded her of Joyce? You don’t think Jocelyne has other traits, like her political convictions, that Dorothy might admire in her current directionless state?
You never think, “what would make this situation really awkward”?
I guess I should say I think those things and am baffled by the dismissal of the sisters’ similarity, including their physical appearance, with Dorothy’s interest in Joyce not being primarily physical. Like if Dorothy’s attraction was primarily physical, then I think it’d be pretty unlikely she’d make a pass at Jocelyne. Joyce and Jocelyne don’t have the same build (yet).
No, I don’t think Jocelyne is particularly similar to Joyce. I think what we’ve so far seen of her — which hasn’t been all that much! — is as similar to Becky as it is to Joyce. And those two girls aren’t that similar, either.
Yes, of course there are other admirable things about Jocelyne. But I currently think that part of the point of Dorothy and Walky getting back together is that when you’re really stuck on someone, it’s not that easy to be in a relationship with a different person, no matter how much that second person might otherwise be attractive to you.
It would certainly make this situation awkward! But I’m already so tired of people calling Dorothy a terrible horrible awful predatory person, it’s kind of interfering with my ability to feel any excitement over “Dorothy displaces her attraction for Joyce onto Joyce’s newly out, newly maybe-feeling-open-to-ladies trans sister”. The comment section would become completely unreadable, and it’s already pretty hard to read!
I think Jacob moving on from Joyce to Lucy made a ton of sense, because Lucy and Joyce are very similar, with Lucy being different in a few ways that only make them more compatible (like their shared religious beliefs). I thought Joe trying to displace his feelings for Joyce onto Liz made a ton of sense, and the backfiring of that was excellent drama, with the added bonus of Liz not being a character who was going to stick around, so her fallout from that night can happen off-screen.
I don’t think either of those scenarios are similar to what’s going on right now, since Jocelyne has been promoted to Cast Page, so she’s not going anywhere, and if Dorothy hurt her by kissing her while thinking of Joyce, the fallout of that would be huge and long-lasting. That, unlike telling Joyce about her feelings, I see as potentially seriously damaging Joyce’s relationship with Dorothy: monster who broke my sister’s heart says what??
But also, like, Dorothy falling for Joyce is just a much bigger deal. First-ever girl-crush, forcing her to completely redefine her sexuality, which is a big deal for most people. It would be a lot weirder if Willis had always planned for her to switch her affections to Jocelyne, who she only just met like the day before yesterday in-universe.
Clarifying: Dorothy falling for Joyce is a much bigger deal than Jacob falling for Joyce, so pulling the rug out from under it at the last minute by having Dorothy kiss a different girl before she’s even told Joyce her feelings, much less a girl who looks so much like Joyce but is otherwise not very similar to her, would be weird in a way that subverting expectations on Jacob-and-Joyce was not.
Am I? I wasn’t even talking to you when I first said I didn’t see Dorothy switching her affections from Joyce to Jocelyne, lol. You’re not the only person who’s been talking about this idea.
like, I was just laying out my points. Whatever you think wasn’t a response to you probably wasn’t. Only the first three paragraphs were even really related to your comment.
Almost as subtle as the time she tried to induce sensory overload in the hall by wearing a brightly colored shirt. Not sure why she thought that would work.
Dorothy thinking about where there is a not-in-a-relationship clone of Joyce… Who’s also taller than her… Is Joss in a relationship? I don’t think so, right?
I assume it’s the “almost” part. Like a “come on, you’re so close, just change the hues that extra little bit” kinda meme.
Personally, I like the idea of Dorothy being firmly cisgender and accidentally sending out nonbiney signals. It brings to mind Becky’s “your wardrobe sends out false positives” remark from the days of eld.
The use of “all right” (or “alright”, I personally don’t care) in song lyrics always remind me of Prisencolinensinainciusol. Where “all right” are the only actual words in the entire song.
I love that song! I played the original for my ESL students, lo, last century. They were mostly Spanish speaking, but they all agreed with and enjoyed that song.
Lots of people know songs many decades older than when they were born. Maybe they had older family members who played those songs a lot when they were kids. Or they heard the song in a movie or TV show. Or they just developed a taste for a genre of music that’s much older than them.
Okay, I’ve never looked up DoA locations on Google Maps because I don’t want to be a creep that conflates a fictional story with a real place with a real people in it. I got curious about how serious the protest is if it can kind-of-sort-of be heard from campus, so I figured an ultra high level “how far apart are these two landmarks” search would be okay.
Assuming they are at Bloomington (which I think was established already although I can’t remember when I exactly), Dunn Meadow is only a 3 minute walk from them (which makes sense because Joe asked Joyce if she wanted to drop by to see her sister before lunch). Having passed by multiple peaceful protests on foot, this brings me to think it’s currently busy, likely still mostly peaceful, maybe a bit if chanting and/or the odd speakerphone amplifying voices. So it’s very likely that Jocelyn (and presumably Asma) are still safe for now.
Jocelyn is gonna sort out her sister’s queer friend again isn’t she? She’s the older wiser person that helped Ethan come clean. Now she can do the same for Dorothy.
the hypersexualizing of Dorothy’s romantic feelings for Joyce is really gross.
Commenters can’t even say “this is cute” without being accused of calling for Joyce and Dorothy to fuck in public, and there’s been a lot of “you’re all too busy getting off on this to think about Joe’s feelings” and it’s really, really uncomfortable to read.
I’m not saying these comments are all coming from queerphobes, I’m not even saying they’re all coming from straight people, and I’m certainly not saying there’s no sexual component to Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce; there probably is some of that!
But I am sure not enjoying the constant reminder that society views all sapphic attraction as inherently predatory and hypersexual.
It reminds me of this upsetting response (from years ago) Tom Siddell (Gunnerkrigg Court) gave to a message he received on Formspring.
Fan message: “Just wanted to let you know: some of us ask about characters being gay, because we love your characters and want to identify with them better. Also being gay or wanting to read about gay characters isn’t just about “sexualising things”.”
Tom: “It is on the Internet, where the topic of homosexuality is never deeper than an edited image of Annie fucking Kat.”
Like I said, that was years ago; I continue to follow Gunnerkrigg Court and can’t imagine Tom would say something like that now. But as a young queer person who was interested in everything about my favorite webcomic? Ouch.
How unfair to everyone involved, including the people drawing that fanart, to be held to a standard that is absolutely never, ever, ever applied to presumed straight fans of m/f ships.
People can want a slipshine of Joyce/Joe and no one will assume that’s the entirety of their interest in the ship, but if someone says “now kiss” (invoking a famous meme) about Joyce and Dorothy, we must be thinking with whatever the commentariat assumes is in our pants.
Not to be all “I’m ace” again, because honestly I would be just as uncomfortable about strangers speculating about my Pants Situation even if I weren’t, but ughhhhhhh.
What, predatory? What exactly makes it “predatory” if Dorothy has realised she likes Joyce in a sexual way and would really like to get busy with her? How is that “predatory”?
I would invite you to re-read my comment if you think I’m the one saying there’s anything predatory about Dorothy having feelings (or any kind of sexual attraction) for Joyce.
To break it down slightly, I’m pretty sure Li is perceiving a societal attitude toward sapphic attraction that paints it as predatory, in particular the displays of it here on this very website. There’s a vibe in the air of “Dorothy’s into Joyce and hasn’t instantaneously confessed those feelings to Joyce before she’s even finished processing them, so she’s preying on Joyce until further notice”, and Li’s definitely not the only one picking up on it.
I’ll put this politely and to nobody in specific (all use of “you” here is the Royal You). If you think anything Dorothy’s doing, in regards to this newly admitted attraction to Joyce, is screwy or sideways or predatory or creepy or any of those silly little negative interpretations, you’re being fucking stupid and need to get your head out of your ass.
Definitely Royal You, I’m not trying to call out any one person in specific. Just the increasingly overwhelming background radiation of the comments every time Dorothy breathes.
To be extra clear, I’ll call one specific person out with no regrets or hesitation, and that Royal You will get a whole lot more personal, if I think they’re being extra stupid about it. Dorothy needs oxygen to live, maybe we can let the poor cartoon girl breathe some Kinsey 2 breaths without making it a federal fucking case.
But have we considered that it’s actually very selfish of her to breathe, when her breathing might materially harm Joyce???? By causing her to experience one (1) moment of slight discomfort??????
Hmm, I think Dottie might be having some trouble looking at Joyce right now. Kinda hard to see, but you can tell she’s looking away from the very start.
You can be a guy who likes girls and have friends that are girls.
You can be lesbian and have friends that are girls.
You can be attracted to your friend and still be a friend. We cannot help what we find attractive, but we can dictate our actions. It does not automatically mean you are going to deliberately lust after them. Humans can be better than that and assuming they cannot is assuming lesser of them for no reason.
You can even have feelings for a person that is your friend and carry on. Not all feelings turn a platonic relationship to a non-platonic one. Some people can’t carry that, but some can. Again, making that assumption and then using that as a weapon of judgement against them belittles the person and disrespects their agency.
I don’t know if anyone needed to hear any of the above but judging from the comments I sure think so.
Gawd I really hope nothing I said sounded like I think Dorothy needs Joyce to return her feelings in order to stop being in so much pain. I just think Dorothy needs to be honest about her feelings, with both Joyce and Walky, if they’re as strong as I think they are. Even if Joyce totally rejects her, that would help so much with Dorothy’s ability to move on.
Getting rejected sucks a lot, but when you’ve been futilely pining for a long while, it’s like finally just ripping a bandaid off. Important for getting past it emotionally, imho.
ok, the stage is set for Joyce to have her room all to herself this evening. The evening following her date with Joe. The date he suggested after she “implied” she was ready for a bit more physicality. Were Dorothy to decide that tonight is the night to share with Joyce, it will definitely not go well.
today in #9chickweedlane i learned that man we've been speedrunning twins marriage stuff for so long, that I'd forgotten that a major component of the strip usually is Yet Another Flashback To Children Learning What Sex Is, But A Different Way This Time Than Last Time
"She says you have four kids all under the age of seven, and one of them's named Jeffy? And to not look immediately to your right, because there he is????"
disassembled my omega prime, leaving an intact bottom half, and @toyboxcomix.com was like "hey you should put the top half of armada prime on that" and i did and I made Omegada Prime
(aka ohmigerd prime)
Just wildly flailing his arms, randomly repeating things he has heard that made people laugh, utterly unable to discern *why* they made them laugh, hoping beyond hope he will accidentally hit the target
Brian Tyler Cohen@briantylercohen.bsky.social ⋅ 21h
Early access is now available to TRANSFORMERS: THE BASICS on OVERRIDE! A high-speed history of the leader of Velocitron, and the almost-forgotten G1 Triggerbot from whom she takes her name!
Watch now on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/127657...
Or for members on YT: www.youtube.com/@ChrisMcFeel...
The Ohioana Book Festival is a real event here in Columbus that's next weekend. Anyway, knowledge is a curse and so I'm upset it's drawn like a comic convention, with the cloth cubicles, rather than the rows of tables at a library that it really is.
We still need about $470 to make rent - if you’re able to help, we could surely use it. Thank you!
Mae Dean@maegodhavemercy.com ⋅ 2d
Hey folks - I’m still looking for work, and as much as I hate having to ask, I could use a bit of help getting the rent paid. If there’s any way you could help, I’m “MaeGodHaveMercy” on PayPal, Venmo and Cashapp.
Thank you in advance - you’ve all helped me more than I can ever explain.
there's this thing in journalism that really gets me mad. the ben smiths of the world will look at you like you're crazy for simply stating what is actually happening all the way up to the moment they report on it themselves with wide eyed wonder, and then its their story that goes megaviral.
that a bunch of billionaires have been irreversibly brainwormed by getting addicted to a glorified chat room adds credence to my theory that spending too much time on IRC as a child acts as a powerful inoculant to the worst impulses of an escalatory group dynamic
what do you mean dr wu is making a marvel-style broadside?????????
and he's about 5 inches tall so that he's to cartoon scale with the rest of their tiny-scale figures
Bayjmin Tuckles @bayjmin-tuckles.bsky.social ⋅ 17h
Brian Tyler Cohen @briantylercohen.bsky.social ⋅ 21h
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“my single brain cell is going into high gear over the protest and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE”
“Really? Nothing else at all?”
Everything about Joyce is taking place lower in her body than her brain.
For example, her pants are on fire.
(For those who had a deficient childhood the taunt goes “Liar! Liar! Pants on Fire.”)
There’s certainly some thermodynamics going on in Dorothy’s pants.
*JimCarreyMask-Smokin.gif*
+1
Joyce humming “Red Wine Supernova”
Yes, I am into Chappell Roan now. Thanks Willis!
(I mean that sincerely – always nice to find a new artist I like.)
Willis:
I get the job down
Methinks she doth protest too mu…
… wait, Dorothy’s not actually at the protest. Huh. I need to think this over.
Sadly, the protests are once more a case of Willis doing an already serious thing and then the reality getting so much worse.
#handsoff
It’s fucking grim, I don’t know what to say. I knew it was gonna be bad, but I didn’t expect it to get this much worse this quickly.
Amen.
I did.
Wasn’t good enough at getting people to believe me, though.
You too, huh? :\
Yeah, me too. For a very, very long time. Not just the last eight or nine years. A very, very long time.
Honestly, the biggest lesson I’ve learned is this:
The hardest thing in the world is to get people to recognise what is directly in front of their faces.
None of this was secret, none of this was hidden, they said all this shit in words amongst themselves in places anyone could hear it. None of it was even subtle. You just had to listen to them and acknowledge what was going on in front of you was actually happening, and… almost no one would.
So here we are, down the singularity, past the event horizon, and there are no more good outcomes. Only varying degrees of bad.
(But those degrees of bad are still really, really important. It’s funny that the best hope now for climate is a global economic implosion that doesn’t quite get to active war. Biden’s infrastructure programme tipped solar and wind into high enough production that it’s now cheaper than oil, without subsidies. Push comes to shove, that’s all anyone in industry will care about – particularly as people try to recover from Trump’s all too likely economic depression.)
What is crazy is how hard it STILL IS to get people to see the obvious threats happening right in front of them. You show people how Kolmar Abrego Garcia was unilaterally removed from the country without any due process against a Supreme Court order, and they are just straight up ignoring the order to return him. And they will just quote the DHS lies about him being an MS13 member and we don’t want terrorists back in the country. HELLO? There was no due process, there is no evidence he is a member of a gang, and the government has already admitted he was deported accidentally. And now they are talking about using the same process against “homegrown terrorists”. How can they possibly make it any more obvious that they are setting the stage to claim people they don’t like are terrorists and export them to a foreign prison system without any due process?
The problem is that it always starts out as seeming impossible to happen to people. Then it happens and they have to normalize it in their mind to make sense of it, so it can’t actually be that bad.
If people build a gallows, contact a rope merchant, walk you to the gallows, and put the rope around your neck, if they deny that you are being walked to the gallows during that process its called “Lying” and your confusion as to how “can’t they see that they are hanging people and it kills them.” Is the distraction they use on you. Its give you hope they will stop if they notice, so they wont try and forcibly stop you.
Fascists don’t stop because you ask them to or show them that they are doing a fascism. Your confusion over them not admitting to there collective actions, helps them.
If only if only the woodpecker cried the wood was a little bit softer. The wolf cried aloud at the moon as he cried “If only, If only.”
“Homegrown terrorists” == “US citizens who protest / whistleblow too much, whom we’ve accused with no evidence whatsoever”. And sent out of country to concentration camps. With no due process, no rights at all. Guantanamo * 100. And removal of citizenship with no due process, no rights, and no undoing it. And if it’s accidental? Whoopsie.
The problem is, Dara, that even if people accept climate change is a problem and do something about it, they still fail to recognise that environmental overreach, of which climate change is merely a symptom, is going to screw us over anyway.
People are a lot more willing to do something than give something up, and a lot aren’t that willing to do something in the first place.
Yep, people were telling me I was paranoid. How I wish they were right.
Lots of Cassandra-ification going on.
People really underestimate how fast a democracy can unravel itself. It only took Hitler 53 days to turn Germany from a parliamentary republic into a dictatorship. Trump promised he’d be a dictator from day 1.
Y’know, the fuckin’ weird part is, I’m pretty sure Hitler was in better health than the orange thing. It took a few years to take that loser out, but a lightly rowdy child could probably bump into this loser and get the job done.
I dunno. Hiltler had a plethora of health problems for which his personal doctor prescribed him like 70+ different drugs, including phenytoin, cocaine, and actual crystal meth
It’s a shame he couldn’t have been a normal meth-head. Just eating people’s car stereos, instead of becoming one of history’s greatest monsters.
I mean meth was pretty popular in Germany back then, they actually gave it to the Nazi soldiers initially but then stopped on account that the withdrawal symptoms basically made them start to murder each other
Nazis murdering each other? Damn, now that’s some good clean entertainment. Not even a tiny moral dilemma, you can just pop some corn and watch the show. After all, they’re just Nazis.
Is there a particular event we’re despairing over? I try to keep up to date, but so much is constantly happening and never seems to stop from keep happening constantly, so I’ve kinda lost track of where the fuck we’re even at. Is it like This Week recent or [broad and frantic hand waving]?
There are countless events to despair about, but I think the most significant at the moment is how Trump isn’t doing anything about the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia.
The salient facts are:
1. the Trump administration itself recognized this deportation was “an administrative mistake”.
2. the Supreme Court, that very Supreme Court that’s packed with Trump-appointed “Justices” that decided Trump should be legally immune for any and all crimes he decides to officially commit, has ordered the government to bring Abrego Garcia back.
3. Trump received the dictator of El Salvadar in the White House, and instead of demanding the safe return of Abrego Garcia, preferred to talk about how “homegrowns are next”, meaning that he’s planning to also send native US citizens to foreign prisons.
Note: They fired the man who said it was a mistake and said it was because he didn’t fight harder against the order. Which is to say they hate that anyone admitted he wasn’t a terrorist.
Let’s call concentration camps by the proper name.
getting really bad really fast is a good thing overall. Better than a slow creep of abuses to get the general public used to one before the next one hits. This way there’s a greater chance of enough of the comfortable to become uncomfortable.
That’s only true if there’s a public-pressure, mostly-non-violent means of stopping it.
There’s 2 reasons fascists hit the gas on going full-fascism:
* they’re overeager and inept
* they know they’ve already won
They control all 3 branches of the federal government already – even the one that’s halfheartedly wagging their fingers at the open contempt for due process. They’ve thrown out literally everyone whose job it is to prevent abuses of power. All that’s left is waiting for an excuse to declare martial law and start ignoring posse comitatis. At the moment, the political opposition is still at the “public denouncements and filing useless lawsuits” stage of toothlessly resisting.
Give it a few more months, and enough of the drowsy sheep will realize the wolves have somehow been named shepherds and start gathering in the streets to bleat. Which’ll make ’em nice targets, of course.
Who would’ve thought the most unrealistic thing in this comic strip that includes a superhero would end up being a MAGA Republican voluntarily giving up power for… any reason at all, really, but particularly a queer kid.
#HandsOff #50501
What dies 50501 mean?
*does
https://www.fiftyfifty.one/
50 states, 1 cause
I hadn’t seen this. Thanks!
Ironically, Robin should have stayed a leader and maybe actually fought for LGBTA rights.
I doubt her opponent has been nearly as passionate.
Who knows how close to reality Willis’ GOP would’ve been, but a Robin that stayed in politics to fight for queer rights as a member of a Republican Party even kind of similar to IRL would’ve been forced out of power by her own party leadership with very little hesitation.
Oops – musta messed up the /i after “kind”
Yeah, it almost certainly would have had to have been a party change
It’s been bad for campus protestors for a very long time, much longer than most people realize.
Since Kent State back in the “Remember When”
Kent State is what I was thinking of. That and the arrests of campus protestors last year when Biden was president.
(Gay, gay, homosexual, gay)
I’m honestly wondering if Dorothy is in Walkyverse Robin’s position: Not into “girls; Into that girl.
The difference is that Robin was into someone who was 100% into girls.
Dorothy is into someone who’s not only in a relationship, but has also given zero concrete proof of being into women.
Godspeed.
No concrete proof. But possibly cement.
So what, 80% into girls? 90%? We’ll definitely hit 100% soon
Even if you’re right, what… difference does that make for the comparison, which was just talking about whether Dorothy is bi or straight with an exception
I don’t even agree with that description of Dorothy or Robin, but it doesn’t really seem to have anything to do with Joyce’s reciprocation or lack thereof.
The assumption seems that Joyce will magically become full lesbian once Dorothy shoves her tongue down Joyce’s throat, seemingly.
Whose assumption, exactly?
Just because Dorothy’s sexuality might be similar to Robin’s doesn’t mean any other character has to “become” Leslie???
Not that that would clear up her current existential crisis much, but proper context never hurts.
Dorothy is clearly into at least two girls. Robin wasn’t as straight as all that, either.
Seems like Dorothy also finds Amazi-Girl hot…
Well, yes, but she is hot.
Dorothy finds Amazi-girl hot.
Amazi-girl and Amber share a body
It has been said that Amber is “Thick Brunette Dorothy”
….
I’m not going to read anymore into this.
Yeah, A-G’s the second of the two. Joyce is, of course, the first.
There are some others that are plausible, but if someone wants to say that Dorothy’s not into them, I’m not going to look at them askance and go, “Are you even reading the comic?”
Yeah, SP! Robin was in denial for awhile, but by the end she was defining herself as queer
Per the order of tags, I think it’s gay, bi, bi(-ish?), and straight.
Ahh, now I know the reference
Ayyyyyyy
Even Dorothy is not claiming to be a lesbian! Why do so many people here seem to think that possible attraction to up to 2 females, in a lifetime of being male-attracted and acting like it, automatically means that said attractions to and relationships with men are totally all lies, and never ever real? Like, come on.
Dorothy needs to talk to WALKY first, not try to publicly fuck Joyce, for crying out loud. Walky is her boyfriend, ant least in her mind, and deserves better treatment.
Jesus, what are you even talking about.
1. “Even Dorothy isn’t claiming to be a lesbian”
Of course she isn’t, she was previously trying to convince Danny she wasn’t even a 1 on the Kinsey scale.
2. Things can be gay without the people involved identifying that way. I’m bi, I do gay stuff all the time. It’s used as an umbrella term sometimes. Relax.
3. “not to try to publicly fuck Dorothy”
Uh-huh. Because that’s obviously what telling Joyce about her feelings would entail. Not that you’re even replying to a comment encouraging her to do that.
4. Again, umbrella terms, but also. “So many people” think that because it matches their own lived experiences.
Heteronormativity is a hell of a thing, and some people do identify as bi before coming out as gay.
It can be frustrating when you’re looking for bi representation, but it isn’t inherently evil of someone else to say, “Wow, I find Dorothy so relatable right now, this was exactly me before I came to terms with being a lesbian.”
NO IMPURE THOUGHTS HERE NOSIREE BOB!
This feels like that inappropriate guy in Love Actually. I’m picturing Dorothy going to Joyce and Joe’s wedding and taking stalkery Joyce photos, then showi g up at their door with signs.
*plays “Detroit Rock City” by Kiss on hacked muzak*
also, plays “Alright” by Kendrick Lamar, because I hacked the muzak
awe man, this hits home real hard, then and now… :,)
1. “All right” is The Correctness. “Alright” is an assortment of English alphabet letters that have no purpose in life.
2. Dorothy. Dorothy. You gotta tell her. (yeah, yeah, i know you ain’t gonna.)
Let’s compromise, aight?
A’ight, but it needs the apostrophe.
Alright.
Why would she need to tell her?
She’s suffering; totally doing it to herself.
While I don’t think it would be the case, there’s potential for a lot more suffering if she confessed she had a crush.
Between Joyce questioning their past and future behavior on what she should and shouldn’t do, Walky’s view on whether or not the cleavage pic was cheating, and the drama that could come from Becky if she got a bug up her butt about it, there could be a lot more suffering than Dorothy not telling Joyce how attractive she is in her sexiest sweater vest.
I’d keep it to myself.
Joyce doesn’t need to know unless Dorothy acts on those feelings.
A properly stated clear and believable rejection usually helps make the feelings go away, after which they can be friends again. I mean, most people can handle mild physical or even romantic attraction to a friend and remain friends, but some people (and some extreme levels of attraction for a lot more people) can get in the way of actually being a friend instead of just acting like one.
Regardless of how far back some readers called it, it’s been like 12 hours since Dorothy realized her feelings.
The idea that she’s not only suffering from not having said anything, but that if she doesn’t say anything it will affect their friendship feels like early days.
Not to forget that they’re both in relationships with other people; there’s no need to potentially blow up the spot at this time.
Y’all may be right that saying something might help, or even might need to be said for Dorothy’s peace of mind, but if I were Dorothy, I’d definitely give myself more time to reflect on my feelings before sharing them with Joyce, if at all.
Dorothy only just recognized her feelings, but they’ve been causing some suffering from her and affecting he friendship for a bit now. I do think she should give it time– it’s possible that just acknowledging her feelings will help lessen some of her struggles. It’d also be great if she could talk about it, but a lot of those close to her might not feel like the right people to start with (those people being Joyce, Walky, people who are friends with her but closer to Joyce, Amber…). Maybe she could talk to her therapist. Or Leslie.
That said, I *want* to see her tell Joyce because I want to watch what happens, so I’m not in the stands chanting, “Take a rational and measured approach to this, Dorothy!” Comic time is too slow for that.
All of this.
I know we only just learned Dorothy’s been pining for Joyce, but it’s clearly been going on for some time and it’s reasonable to assume it’s part of why Dorothy has been stressed and depressed since at least the timeskip.
It’s not like Dorothy just woke up today, being attracted to Joyce; even before she was ready to admit what was going on, she still all but said out loud, “I gave up Yale for you.” (Not the entire reason, I’m sure, but part of it!) And, of course, comics like this, where we now know (per Word of Willis on public Patreon posts) she was full of confused, frustrated pining.
I also agree that it would be BETTER for Dorothy to take some time and process this, and to come out as bi without necessarily confessing her feelings to Joyce, but also, it took years to get here, and it’s already gonna take probably years to see Joyce realize Dorothy has feelings for her even if Dorothy only waits a week. So.
Gotta say, this idea that Dorothy’s feelings would necessarily be traumatizing for Joyce to hear about really…… feels bad to read, friend.
I don’t think it would be traumatizing, but I can well believe that it would make things weird for Joyce.
I keep hearing people say she’s going to develop TRUST ISSUES if more than one female friend turns out to be in love with her, and that is just a very weird thing to say.
If the case were that her friends had no real interest in her beyond these romantic feelings and they dropped her when she didn’t reciprocate, *then* I could see her developing trust issues. That’s something a lot of people experience, especially women who believe a guy is their friend and then find out that there wasn’t actual value for their friendship.
But that’s very much *not* what’s happening here, so.
Every time I read someone saying it, I just want to look directly into the camera like I’m on The Office because I have been that woman*, and yeah, this is so completely different, not just because Dorothy and Becky are girls or queer.
I feel like Joyce herself would be furious that anyone is implying that Dorothy having (unrequited) feelings for her would even make her a little bit uncomfortable, much less give her trust issues. Even if it did make her a tiny bit uncomfortable, she’d be so determined to make sure Dorothy knows it’s okay and that they don’t have to stop being friends… sigh.
* Not a woman, but I identified as one at the time, and it’s been three guys so far who I thought were a platonic friend, two of which knew I (thought I) was a lesbian, and were also older than me, and also decided to confess their feelings late at night during what I thought was a platonic sleepover, lol. The third guy was definitely pretending to be my friend in hopes of hooking up with me, but one of the first two? Despite how super awkward and uncomfortable that situation was? Despite the fact that he was the second guy in a row to do exactly the same thing? We’re still friends! And I have somehow managed not to develop a complex about guy friends. Weird of me, I guess, being able to emotionally handle a development like that when I was fourteen, when obviously Joyce is gonna shatter into a million pieces despite being legally an adult.
Yeahhh the fact of the matter is if you have a community and people date within it your friends and community members are gonna have crushes on each other and sometimes you. This can be *annoying* sometimes, especially if some people proceed to be weird about it after you confess to or reject them, but this seems… Normal to me. I feel like the only way this would not be normal would be if you were under the assumption you only had to worry about this happening with opposite sex friendships and were uncomfortable with that not being the case, which… Is homophobic? I promise people are capable of being normal with people who they’ve had crushes on and/or dated. People in this comic do it all the goddamn time I don’t know why commenters are harping on it here.
+5, AK. Co-signed.
You and I have very different ideas of what trauma is if you think questioning your behavior on how you’ve acted and should act towards a friend who admitted attraction to you counts.
You called it inflicting much more suffering, but sure, all you said was that Dorothy should question her behavior.
I was speaking of the potential of EVERYTHING I mentioned all going in the WORST possible way as possibly being a lot more suffering.
Not JUST considering her behavior with Dorothy.
And I said I doubted it would happen.
I also never said Dorothy should question her behavior or even that Joyce should (I assume you meant Joyce there, but just clarifying if not).
But I do believe Joyce WOULD.
I think she would think about all the times Walky, Sarah, or Becky made reference to how close they are, how she calls Dorothy perfect and loves her, how Dorothy held her hands while they masturbated, how she drunkenly cuddled in Dorothy’s arms, how Dorothy sent her a cleavage pic, and wonder if anything she did made Dorothy like her romantically, how she feels about Dorothy’s feelings, if she has romantic feelings in return, if she should get advice from anyone, if it’s ok to talk to others about it without Dorothy’s ok, and lastly, if she doesn’t return Dorothy’s feelings at all, or not at the moment, would it still be ok to do any and all things she did before without making Dorothy feel awkward, bad, or lonely that they’re not together.
Joyce has made a lot of improvement in being considerate of others, and even if she wouldn’t have to be more considerate of her behavior with Dorothy, she’d almost certainly think about if she should.
And if she overthought it, that could lead to suffering.
Being alive “could lead” to suffering.
Joyce will be fine.
I think so, too.
I also think Dorothy will be fine.
Which is why I don’t think Dorothy needs to tell Joyce anything at the moment.
But if the metric for needing to say anything is suffering, there’s more potential of suffering due to telling vs not telling at this moment in time.
More chance of suffering? Probably not.
More potential for suffering? Probably so.
Only if you agree that there’s actually any potential “suffering” for Joyce in the equation, which, you know, I don’t. So cancel that out.
Then there’s Walky, who you’re assuming is going to suffer as a result of Dorothy telling him she’s bi, or interested in Joyce, but who you’re assuming won’t suffer at all as long as Dorothy just……… keeps the fact that she’s in love with someone else to herself.
I am assuming you can see why I might disagree with that second proposition.
Anyway, the only one we actually know is hurting is Dorothy, who has been visibly in pain for in-universe months, but sure. Maybe Joyce might hypothetically experience some discomfort, and maybe Walky would be better off continuing to date someone who’s in denial about her sexuality, rather than having an adult conversation about it. I guess those are also possibilities.
I’m not assuming anything.
I’ve said at least twice that I don’t think anything would happen if she shared her feelings.
On top of that, I specifically mentioned Dorothy cheating in regards to Walky, not Dorothy being bi or even liking Joyce (he’s probably already suspected it).
But Dorothy obviously felt like she was cheating and even felt the need to apologize to Walky because of it.
If Walky felt the same, that would be suffering (I doubt he would because intent matters and that wasn’t her intent).
Also, I don’t think Dorothy is in love with Joyce; I think she’s too new to these feelings to know what they are beyond attraction (which is all the more reason to not say anything until she’s had more than a few hours to let it marinate).
Consequently, I don’t think her feelings for Joyce are her main issue for the past few weeks, cuz if they were, it diminishes her very real struggles to a crush she didn’t even know she had.
Lastly, you do realize that there’s a big difference between being in denial about your sexuality and telling anyone what your sexuality is, right?
There’s also a big difference between telling Walky she’s bi and telling Walky she wants Joyce.
These are separate, but related things that you are conflating together.
Unless you think that you have to go with the Becky approach about your sexuality to not be in denial, which is a fair view to take.
1. If you don’t actually think Dorothy would hurt anyone by telling Joyce and/or Walky about her feelings, whyyyy are you still arguing that she shouldn’t tell anyone?
2. In this hypothetical scenario where Walky does think the photo counts as cheating, you… do realize that’s not an argument against telling him about it, right. We can agree that Walky deserves to make an informed decision about his relationship with Dorothy, right?
3. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about whether or not Dorothy is in love with Joyce, but goodness, why would that “diminish” her struggle?
4. “there’s a big difference between being in denial about your sexuality and telling anyone what your sexuality is”
yes, that difference is literally called the closet.
I’m going to assume you just mean Dorothy doesn’t have to tell specific people, although again, why you’d be arguing against her telling them if you don’t think it’ll hurt anybody is beyond me, but seriously. The state of “not being in denial about your sexuality but not telling anyone what it is” is called being in the closet.
5. “There’s also a big difference between telling Walky she’s bi and telling Walky she wants Joyce.”
I notice that you have changed the wording here so that it’s no longer telling Walky that she has feelings for Joyce but telling Walky that she “wants” Joyce, which I assume you consider to be oversharing. But there’s literally no reason Dorothy has to phrase things that way.
6. “Unless you think you have to go with the Becky approach about your sexuality to not be in denial”
It’s so funny, because like, there was this whole arc of this strip where Joyce was constantly “reminding” Becky that she didn’t need to tell anyone she was a lesbian if she didn’t want to.
Do you remember that arc. Do you remember how Joyce was doing that because she was still deeply uncomfortable with Becky’s sexuality herself, and projecting…….?
Like, Dorothy telling Walky and Joyce that she’s bi would not be Being Becky. Her telling Walky and Joyce that she has feelings for Joyce would not be Being Becky.
But you should honestly maybe sit with yourself and ask yourself why you asked this last question, and whether or not there’s some part of you that thinks Becky telling everyone she’s a lesbian loudly and proudly was, like, wrong of her.
Like, is this a “devil’s advocate” conversation for you. Because if it is, I’m just gonna stop responding. The devil doesn’t need any more advocates, and there are plenty of people who seem to sincerely believe that Dorothy telling Joyce about her crush would be harmful. I’d rather expend energy talking to those people.
1. Because you kept replying to me and misunderstanding me. I hate to be misunderstood.
2. I don’t believe it’s cheating, so I don’t think it’s worth telling. And for people who have actually cheated, I don’t believe in telling people just to assuage one’s guilt. Telling your partner because you legitimately want to make amends and/or give them the choice to leave you, yes. Telling them because you don’t like the guilt of it, no, because then you’re just trying pass your bad feelings onto them.
3. If her struggle is ONLY because of her crush, then she has no real concerns over her path in life and just needed the love of a good woman. But her concerns are real world concerns and should not be fixed by just finding the love of a good woman.
4. Yes, in denial and in the closet are different. We were discussing being in denial. Bringing up being in the closet as if that was always part of the discussion is moving the goalposts.
5. They’re synonymous to me.
6. I don’t think it’s wrong. That’s why I said it was a fair point. I do think it was unnecessary to tell random strangers she was a lesbian as her one and only conversation with said strangers. There are people who don’t know her name, but know she”s a lesbian. Since I don’t think acknowledging your sexuality to yourself is being in denial, then I obviously don’t think the opposite end of the spectrum, the Becky method, is necessary. But I never said it was wrong.
This whole back and forth you’ve had the bad habit of either not reading what I said or reading more into what I said.
You say you’d rather talk to people who genuinely believe it would be harmful?
I told you multiple times that I did not actually believe there would be any problem.
That’s exactly what I mean when I say you have not been reading what I’ve actually said or that you read more into what I’ve said than is there.
Okay. So, we are done! Congratulations, you are free.
Okay, I said I was going to say that, so I said it, but honestly if it were me and my primary complaint was being misunderstood, that would really cheese me off, so here. You do not have to respond to this if you don’t want to, though.
1. I don’t think I misunderstood you as badly as you think I did. I did see your occasional disclaimers that you didn’t really think Joyce or Walky would be hurt. But they weren’t included in every comment — for example, your opening salvos to Steamweed and your first response to Regret — and you did keep arguing for the hypothetical situation where Joyce and Walky were hurt. It… really seemed like you were invested in at least the idea of there being greater potential harm from Dorothy speaking her truth, not to put too fine a point on it. So that’s what I was responding to, and disagreeing with: even hypothetically, the most I see is potential for mild discomfort from Joyce, and if Walky would be hurt, that’s all the more reason for Dorothy to tell him, in my mind. (See my response to the “cheating” concept below.)
You’re right that I misread or mistyped the bit with Dorothy versus Joyce in my second comment. I should have said, “you said there was a greater potential for suffering, but sure, all you meant was that Joyce would have to think about her and Dorothy’s friendship”. I would have been equally as skeptical, but suffering is such a loaded word for Joyce being, like, at most a little awkward for a bit.
2. We are definitely gonna have to agree to disagree about cheating, gosh, haha. I think cheaters absolutely need to tell their partners so that they can make an informed decision about the relationship, which is probably going to end. I have no patience for cheating at all, and it’s not about assuaging the cheater’s guilt even a little. I think there are very few situations where a relationship is salvageable after such a serious breach of trust, but they need honest and open communication. The only acceptable alternative, to me, is breaking up with the partner you’ve cheated on, but pretending it’s for some other reason you think will hurt them less. And even that feels kind of like one last betrayal, because you’re deciding for them that this is better.
3. The part where we disagree about the intensity of Dorothy’s feelings is really the most salient bit. If I agreed that Dorothy only felt a fleeting surface-level attraction to Joyce, I’d still support her coming out to all her friends and her family and anyone else she wanted to, but I’d be a lot less sure that she needs to tell Joyce or Walky.
I also still don’t at all agree that it would diminish Dorothy’s arc. It’s part of her arc, and it’s a big part of what has been causing her pain, but that doesn’t make it the whole thing. Dorothy’s arc has been about feeling like she no longer knows who she is: not being sure she wants to go to Yale isn’t a bigger part of that than realizing she’s bi and that a lot of her recent actions might have had subconscious motives she’s not proud of.
Also? Even if it was as simple as her “needing the love of a good woman”? Come on. Let’s not pretend that it wouldn’t make any difference that the “good woman” is her first bisexual crush. It’s not the same trite story that it would be if she’d realized she needed the love of a good man. It just isn’t.
Maybe someday we’ll all be so spoiled for queer representation and queer love stories that it’ll be just as trite and disappointing, but we’re not there yet, and frankly we aren’t even moving in that direction. The direction we are currently moving in is one where DoA itself is gonna be forcibly recategorized as pornography for having trans characters in it.
4. We were discussing whether or not Dorothy should tell people she’s bi. I don’t really see that as moving goal posts, especially after you said there was a difference between being in denial “and telling anyone what your sexuality is” (emphasis mine).
As I pointed out in my original comment, I don’t think you meant to imply Dorothy should never tell anyone at all, but that is kind of what you said? And then you went on to say the alternative was Being Becky, which further made it sound like you were saying she should be closeted.
5. Well, they’re not synonymous, and also a lot of people have been talking about Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce in simultaneously very negative ways and very crude ways; see other comments on this very page about how Dorothy is obviously going to stick her tongue down Joyce’s throat any second, or how the rest of us must want her to fuck Joyce in public. So. Don’t be surprised if you run into other commentators who also wince at this conflation.
6. Since I don’t think acknowledging your sexuality to yourself is being in denial, then I obviously don’t think the opposite end of the spectrum, the Becky method, is necessary.
Honestly, I am starting to wonder if you know what being closeted means?
I don’t mean that in a mean way. I know I was kind of snarky about Becky before; I’ll admit you touched a nerve there, because the way Becky nuked her closet from orbit was genuinely SO cathartic and wonderful to read, and I don’t like reading it described as if she was oversharing.
But yeah, I am genuinely wondering. Because you keep saying stuff that sounds like as long as Dorothy isn’t actively in denial in her own mind, she isn’t in the closet.
But being in the closet is what happens after you stop being in denial. You know you’re queer, but you are keeping it to yourself and pretending to be not-queer.
So no, Dorothy cannot keep her sexuality entirely to herself without also being in the closet. Because that is what being in the closet is.
7. Anyway I hope you feel less misunderstood now. But again, you don’t actually have to respond. It’s okay not to, if you don’t want to keep talking about this. Goodness knows I am very tired now, heh.
Also I guess I misspoke up there, because it’s not really that I would rather be arguing with someone who actually believed Dorothy’s feelings were inherently harmful. It’s just that if I have to argue about this, I’d rather it be serving more of a purpose than just talking past someone who mostly agreed with me.
1. I do sincerely believe there is greater potential for suffering.
I do not believe that potential would become reality.
And I think the biggest issue is how much of Dorothy’s suffering the past few weeks is due to her realizations about her sexuality and her feelings about Joyce.
You seem to think it’s a bigger part than I do, so of course you’d be resistant to my suggestion that there’d be potentially more suffering because that would have to involve a hell of a lot more suffering from your pov than what would make sense for the potential I described.
2. Ok. Agree to disagree.
3. I think that Dorothy spent the better part of her teenage life working towards the goal of becoming president, of being good and doing good, of being the best she could and trying to uplift others to be the best they could.
She ended her relationships with both Danny and Walky for it (not for the same reasons but all related to her goal).
Then she found out she couldn’t help Walky and herself, and then ended up hurting him.
She realized that despite how she saw herself, she had a hard time getting people to view her as leadership material (going up against Roz for RA).
She admired Amber and Amazigirl, but didn’t realize how much of a balancing act it was for them to keep it together until she saw some things.
Add in the Yale thing, Raidah convincing her being president required being terrible, her acting out from being horny and jealous…you get my long winded point, I see her struggles as continuing from last semester, not just as being part of this semester.
But her feelings for Joyce are a new development of this semester, and so cannot be a big part of resolving her issues since they started long before that, hence it would be diminishing them.
That said, I do believe that I have not been considering her realization of her sexuality as weighty as you have, and have definitely considered it less weighty than her feelings for Joyce, so that’s probably another reason why I felt it diminished her struggle to solve it like that.
4. My initial comment was about Dorothy telling others she had a crush on Joyce, not about telling others she’s bi.
When I said there was potential for greater suffering, it was in regards to admitting the crush (and cheating), not being bi.
When I said Dorothy needs to think about her feelings before saying anything, that was about the crush, not about being bi.
You brought up being in denial, in one comment, then you brought up being in the closet in a different comment; prior to that, I hadn’t been talking about it.
And I specifically corrected you when you did, saying I was talking about her cheating on Walky, not about coming out as bi.
If you read my words again, you’ll notice that I never said Dorothy shouldn’t tell anyone she was bi, I said she shouldn’t tell them about her crush, but you seem to have had me equating the two.
When I got into the difference between being in denial and not telling anyone, that’s only because you brought it up and was inferring that I supported her dating Walky while in denial, which I never said.
That’s also why I brought up the Becky method as, since I never brought up being in denial, I legitimately considered you felt something closer to how she went about it was necessary; I wasn’t being sarcastic when I said it was fair.
Only after that did you bring up being in the closet – which is why I said you were moving the goalposts because the conversation went from never mentioning denial, to mentioning denial, to mentioning the closet, which we both agree are different, yet related.
5. They’re not ALWAYS synonymous. I do think they’re synonymous in this case, as they both are synonymous with caring and desire, so I stand by it…but we can agree to disagree.
6. The reason why I said being in denial and being in the closet are different is because I acknowledge you can be in the latter and not the former. I don’t know what about my words makes you think I didn’t understand, because it doesn’t read like that to me.
If it’s because of the Becky thing, I explained why I brought that up.
Also, look at your quote of me: “ Since I don’t think acknowledging your sexuality to yourself is being in denial, then I obviously don’t think the opposite end of the spectrum, the Becky method, is necessary.” The key part of that is “in denial”. I don’t think it’s necessary to not be in DENIAL. Of course, sharing to that degree isn’t necessary to not be in the closet, either, but that wasn’t what I was talking about.
Remember, you brought up denial and you brought up the closet; I was never talking about either of those positions/stances/whatever the right word is (I’m tired of my own writing now) until you did. I was only ever talking about the crush and the “cheating” prior to that.
7. I do feel better, thank you.
And I get it, you have some significant views on this, while I, unfortunately, just have this hard to resist compulsion to explain myself towards any perceived misunderstanding.
It’s not the same energy, and it sucks if I was hitting sore points in that situation.
You might not come back to see this, but, despite having felt misunderstood on some things, I want you to know that I do feel this was a worthwhile conversation.
— Yeah, even if I didn’t think Dorothy was suffering more than you do, I’d still disagree, because I don’t think there’s even any potential suffering for Joyce, and because I think if any of this would hurt Walky, that’s all the more reason for Dorothy to tell him.
— I don’t actually think that’s why she broke up with Danny at all; I think she broke up with Danny because he wasn’t listening to her or respecting her. Danny has been a great boyfriend for Sal, but he and Dorothy weren’t in a great place. Similarly, she was so moved by Walky because he believed in her (generally), not just because he specifically thought she was gonna be president someday.
I also see her struggled as continuing from last semester, but Word of Willis is that he’s known she was bi since before the timeskip, so that’s not really disqualifying for them having been part of it.
Also, most importantly, I don’t think her coming out to Joyce or telling Joyce about her feelings is going to resolve everything for Dorothy. I just think it will significantly relief the pain she’s been in.
Also worth noting: Dorothy has told Joyce about not going to Yale, and about not being sure she wants to be president; she’s told Walky about both things; and yet, getting that weight off her chest hasn’t made her feel all that much better, that we have seen.
— I mean, I understand that you don’t feel like we’ve ever been talking about being in denial or being closeted, but you didn’t actually start this thread.
You first replied to Steamweed’s top-level comment saying, “You’ve gotta tell her, Dorothy,” by asking why, and other people (not just me) have tried to explain that the “why” is because Dorothy is in pain.
I would argue that everyone in this thread apart from you has always been talking about Dorothy needing to come out of the closet to both her crush and her boyfriend.
So, I wasn’t moving goal posts on purpose: we just didn’t understand where each other’s posts were when the conversation started, I think. There’s been a lot of incompatible, silent, base assumptions in this thread! Not because either of us are trying to misunderstand each other, it’s just kind of happening.
— Sorry, but I do have to emphasize this:
Not only can you be in denial but not in the closet, you kind of can’t be in the closet IF you’re in denial. Because being in the closet is about the pain of knowing you are queer and not feeling like you can tell anyone else. If you’re still in denial, you aren’t hiding anything from anyone else on purpose, so it’s just a different state of existing altogether.
Also, this?
Of course, sharing to that degree isn’t necessary to not be in the closet
It kiiiiind of is, is the thing.
Because of how society works. Because the default assumption in almost all still living societies is that you’re straight and cis. Because even if you really, really don’t pass as either, most strangers are still going to assume you’re just weird instead of correctly guessing your identity.
This is also why Becky spent $20 on a very queer haircut. Because even she doesn’t actually want to have to scream it from the roof tops all the time forever.
There are other options! Like wearing very prominent pronoun bin in pride flag colors and hoping people know what that means.
But like. Speaking as someone who wouldn’t self-describe as closeted, but who is still very much not out at work most of the time: lol. Lmao.
We don’t actually want to yell about it all the time, but it’s either that or let people assume we are straight and cis, and the latter is a kind of slow suffocation.
— Genuinely glad you feel better!
– I should have been more clear, but I tend to over explain myself, as you may have noticed, and I’ve been trying to resist.
Dorothy broke up with Danny because he treated her goal of becoming president as a phase and because he followed her here with no real goal in mind other than computer science classes and their relationship.
When I wrote about why she ended their relationship, I meant her goal of being president (he didn’t respect it as you said) and that he didn’t have his own goal other than being with her (which I consider wanting him to do better).
She even said breaking up was doing him a kindness and that it would have been kinder if she’d done it months earlier.
– We do not know what Steamweed meant without asking for clarification. They only gave the clarification of suffering and that Dorothy needed to tell Joyce specifically.
You’re saying that you believe, and that you think others believe, that Steamweed meant coming out as bi.
I say that makes less sense than to believe they meant the crush.
Here’s why: the significance, of whatever she has to tell, to both herself and Joyce, and that she’s suffering from due to not talking.
The crush is much more significant for Dorothy than coming out as bi because 2.5 people already know it, and it’s more significant for Joyce, because coming out it would simply be finding out another friend was queer.
But telling Joyce she has a crush makes more sense as a source of suffering that has to be specifically told to her as that involves unexpressed and possibly unrequited feelings that only one other person knows about, and that only because he figured it out.
If you’re telling me that I’m the odd one out in thinking Steamweed meant the crush instead of coming out as bi, while certainly possible, that’s hard to believe.
– I said “The reason why I said being in denial and being in the closet are different is because I acknowledge you can be in the latter (the closet) and not the former (denial).”
I gotta say, I don’t get you with this one.
Did you misread me?
Did you just prefer I said it differently?
Or do you legitimately feel I’m missing something?
Because I’m not seeing much of a difference here.
I assume you wanted me to say “you can’t be in the latter if you’re in the former”.
If so, I got it now.
If not, I don’t know what I’m still missing.
– As for being like Becky being necessary to say one is not in the closet, Becky’s behavior is the minority in this comic.
Now if you believe Dina, Sierra, Ruth, Carla, Marcie, Leslie etc., are all in the closet, then there’s nothing I can say.
But if you believe any of them are not in the closet, then you’re acknowledging that sharing to the degree Becky did is not necessary.
And I hope you realize that when I say “sharing like Becky”, I’m being literal.
I consider displaying colors, flags, and pins as sharing less than what Becky originally did.
But that’s honestly probably more to do with the yelling part (I’m not big on making scenes in public), than the random strangers part, since strangers can also see the displays.
– thank you.
— I mean, you explained yourself fine, I just don’t think I agree?
But then again, I actually don’t think her specific literal goal was ever all that important to the narrative. I had always kind of taken it to be short-hand for “this character is both very ambitious and very altruistic”.
Which I think it very quickly stopped functioning as, if it had ever served that purpose, when the reality of Obama’s disappointing presidency set in.
(He was a lot better than a Republican would have been, and the ACA is generally huge in ways a lot of people don’t realize today because they don’t realize preexisting conditions are no longer a thing. But I do think in 2010, when this comic started, we all thought he’d be very different than he wound up being.
And then after two terms of that, Trump.)
So. I’m not Willis, I can’t speak for Willis, but I would not be surprised if the seeds of Dorothy’s course correction hadn’t been sown a lot earlier than the campaign against Roz revealing that Dorothy, for all her lovability throughout, wasn’t yet (at 18) a particularly adept politician.
So yeah I think this is just something we really disagree on, rather than you not being clear enough.
I totally get that you don’t mean Dorothy literally ended her relationships because they were incompatible with her goal of becoming president. But I really don’t think her specific goal has ever been as central a driving force for Dorothy as what she’s more recently shrunk it down to, which was: help as many people as possible.
I’d still kind of like to see a flash forward to President Keener, even though intellectually I know it’s a… let’s say fraught career opportunity, heh, and that Dorothy might be much happier and healthier if we instead flash forward to see her middle aged with a low-stakes job and a satisfying relationship and a bunch of cats.
As for doing Danny a kindness… yes, she said that, and I do think she meant it, but I don’t think she was under any illusion that it was the only reason she was breaking up with him, either; and imho, the sequence leading up to the breakup, where Danny misread Dorothy’s mood and tone a whole bunch of times in a way he could only have been doing by not really listening to her… I think the most charitable interpretation of that sequence is that Willis wanted to show us that they weren’t on the same page. It culminated in his dismissal of her goals, but those smaller instances of him ignoring her body language, tone, expression, and even the words coming out of her mouth were all important, too, and none of them had to do with her goal of being president.
But we can disagree on that.
And this arc isn’t finished yet, so we don’t yet know where Willis is going with Dorothy.
— I mean, yes, I think you’re the odd one out, in this thread, because all the rest of us have been united in saying that Dorothy needs to tell Joyce and Walky, and that she is currently in pain because she isn’t telling them. You’re the one who’s been arguing that it’s not that big of a deal.
I think it’s a natural step from there to supposing you might also be alone in not talking about this in terms of coming out / being in the closet / etc, yes.
But that’s just my opinion, of course.
— Yes, the difference between what you said and what you could have hypothetically said here is significant, but I wasn’t trying to correct your wording out of pedantry.
I have legitimately been trying to ask if you know what being closeted is, and trying to explain it.
You still haven’t said you know what being closeted is, and you also haven’t said you have any kind of experience with real-life queerness, either yourself or through friends, and you’re still talking about Becky’s approach to coming out as if it only matters in comparison to other characters in this comic rather than as in comparison to real people like me who are reading it.
So, I’ve been increasingly getting the sense that no, you don’t have any real-life experience with it, and that I should be explaining more and assuming less.
Which is why I keep trying to explain the difference here.
Anyway:
Your points of comparison are Dina, Sierra, Ruth, Carla, Marcie, and Leslie (plus more unnamed characters), all of whom you suggest are not closeted without being Becky.
Let’s eliminate Sierra from contention here, since we actually don’t know much about her at all, but the fact that Joyce (who’s both pretty oblivious AND still very sheltered) knows Sierra is in a poly relationship suggests that, off screen, Sierra is actually pretty loud about both her identity and her relationship status.
Now let’s tackle Ruth, who said to Jennifer “and I think we found out I like girls together, wasn’t that fun”; whose own brother asked her if she was a lesbian, and she said she didn’t know; who was only really identified on-panel explicitly as bi when Joyce tried to police her sexuality: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/02-ill-leave-you-a-phantom/murdering/
Like, yeah, Ruth isn’t Being Becky about her sexuality, but because she isn’t doing that, other characters are assuming she’s straight, or assuming she’s a lesbian. She’s having to correct them.
And she definitely isn’t out to her whole family (there’s just no way she’s told her horrible abusive grandfather), so she is still partly in the closet in one of the most significant ways one can be.
Carla: actually a perfect demonstration of what I’m talking about! You consider her to be less loud about her identity than Becky, but she was actually SO publicly out that she was in the news. She’s complained that it’s only freshmen like Joyce who don’t know, and Joyce finding out and being heckin weird about it while she tried to be supportive was just one of many exhausting experiences we face, and why Becky’s nuking of the closet was so cathartic.
Carla also tries to make her asexuality as obvious as possible, taking pretty much every opportunity she gets to reassert her sex-repulsion, but honestly she’s still being too subtle for a lot of readers, who have needed reminders of the years.
Marcie: here’s another character where we actually have no idea how loud she is or isn’t about her sexuality, because we haven’t seen her much, and what we have seen is mostly her interacting with the same close friend group. But we’ve still seen Marcie struggling with Malaya not realizing she was interested, which could well be because Malaya had assumed she was straight.
Leslie: again, we don’t actually know how obvious she is in her personal life. It would definitely be…….. frowned upon if she went around telling students at IU about her sexuality at the drop of a hat. She did come out to Joyce’s gender studies class, but only partway through the year, when it was defensibly relevant to the material, and in that coming out speech, she talked about how she spent a long time in the closet and even married a man, and how her whole family disowned her when she came out, so.
Anyway, I don’t think this crop of ladies was as good an example of “not like Becky but not in any way closeted” as you intended them to be.
– You’re welcome
Shoot I skipped Dina by accident.
Dina first of all benefits from always standing next to Becky and often holding hands with her, so she doesn’t need to be loud herself to not be assumed straight.
Second of all, Dina has gleefully engaged in yelling “BECKY AND I HAVE FUCKED”, so I don’t think she would be quiet about her sexuality by preference in Becky’s absence, even though she’s described herself as “unconcerned” rather than “questioning”.
– I felt I wasn’t clear because I basically feel the same way you do, but the fact that you felt you had to say that meant that I didn’t convey that.
And apparently still didn’t.
– Yumi, AK, Regret, Erik, and Clif; I can’t speak for them, but it looks to me that they’re also talking about the crush, not coming out the closet in and of itself.
Maybe I’m misreading their comments, but if I take the crush out of the equation, a lot of their comments make less sense.
So I think this is a you thing.
It is true that I do believe this crush is not that big a deal, and it does look like most of them feel that she should talk to her about the crush, but that IS the crush. While talking about it will also include coming out, that doesn’t seem to be their focus to me.
– I don’t know what more you want me to say, so just assume that I don’t know.
That said, do not explain it to me any further, because if I haven’t gotten it with this conversation, I don’t think I’m going to have a sudden epiphany.
As for my personal experiences, I didn’t know you wanted them, nor do I feel the need to share them to validate what I’m saying, especially since what I’ve been saying clearly makes you think I don’t understand.
So I don’t know what personal experience I or the people close to me have had that would suddenly make you think I did understand.
So just treat it as I don’t.
– I literally said yelling at strangers.
None of those people do that, including Carla.
Also, on the topic of Carla, I was talking about who she found attractive, not her being trans.
She’s not yelling at strangers that she’s asexual (and maybe I don’t understand asexuality, because I assumed you can be asexual while also being straight, bi, or gay, but you brought up none of those).
Dina isn’t yelling at strangers that she’s…whatever she is. She is in a lesbian relationship, but she also talked about how she could scientifically break down Joe by experimenting with sexual pleasure on him.
Also, I thought it was stated that sexuality remains the same between universes, and Dina dated Walky and Mike in the Walkyverse, so is she bi or was she in denial?
Since she never seemed to question herself, I’m going to go with bi.
Tangent aside, yelling their sexuality at strangers is what I’ve been talking about and no one is doing that except Becky (unless Dina told some random that she had sex with Becky and I’m forgetting it).
But even in regards to Carla being trans, Joyce, who has known her for months and would probably call her a friend, didn’t know Carla was until last week.
Carla was not hiding it, but she also was not literally yelling it to strangers or friends.
All that aside, it seems you have answered my question: you do not feel like everyone has to literally yell their sexuality to strangers. You seem to equate some of their behavior to that, but I think I stressed enough that I was being literal, so I don’t equate any of their behavior to the same level as hers.
— While talking about it will also include coming out
Yes, exactly.
My argument is that no one is explicitly saying she should come out because the rest of us are assuming those two things would be simultaneous and that it didn’t actually need to be stated that Dorothy coming out was a big part of why she’s in pain and why she needs to say something to Joyce/Walky.
— I asked you if you knew what being closeted meant and you never answered that question, and you continued to talk like being in the closet and being in denial weren’t mutually exclusive, so yeah, I after a bunch of back and forth along those lines, I eventually said hey it seems like maybe you don’t have personal experience here.
I was trying to avoid making that assumption!
But you know, I wanna drop this thread, because I certainly agree that there’s no point in further belaboring the issue.
— I am sighing over this distinction. Becky didn’t only yell at strangers. I thought you were being hyperbolic, and I was only cooperating with that characterization of Becky’s loud proud continuous coming-out because I thought you, too, were being hyperbolic.
My point about Becky-style coming out was that if one does not make a point of deliberately coming out to every person one meets, one inevitably winds up being assumed to be straight and or cis by some of the people in one’s life.
Becky’s refusal to do that was incredibly cathartic for me and for a lot of other readers.
That’s all.
As for Carla, yeah, she’s specifically homoromantic, and she’s been pretty loud about that too, though not as loud as she’s been about being sex-repulsed.
As for Dina, I only said she doesn’t need to speak up to be assumed not straight; for a lot of people, that’s good enough, but she’s also worn ace flag colors, IIRC! So yeah, she’s demisexual and biromantic or panromantic, as far as we know.
But yeah, we just had fully different definitions of Being Becky. I am a little stunned that you thought it was remotely conceivable that I was arguing for literally yelling at strangers, especially given that I was pretty clear, I thought, about what I was actually saying, but.
Feel free to stress you said you were being literal all you want, but like, I have ADHD and dyslexia, and you aren’t even consistently breaking up your paragraphs, so I think I’ve done an amazing job of following your replies anyway tbqh.
I was going to leave it alone, but I kept thinking about it, so I’ll try to make it short:
– I think it’s just you assuming everyone is on the same page as you when you’re actually the odd one out.
– You asked me if I knew what “in the closet” meant and I explained what it meant.
You then tried to explain it to me.
So I then used your same wording.
You still tried to explain it to me.
So if my explanation doesn’t work for you, and your own explanation doesn’t work for you, then no explanation will.
It really seems like you made up your mind and that it didn’t matter what I said, unless it was something specific to validate your assumption.
So since you were assuming anyway, I just gave you the go ahead.
I don’t actually doubt my own understanding of it.
– No one said yelling at strangers was the only thing Becky did, but I am saying she is the only one that did actually yell at strangers.
And I did make it clear that yelling at strangers was literally and specifically what I was talking about.
I wasn’t being hyperbolic; I was being literal, which is why I said “literally”.
So I was stunned that you didn’t get that I was actually talking about yelling.
I’ve already said that you either misread what I said or read more into what I said than was there; this is another moment of that.
– Lastly, saying “I have ADHD and dyslexia, and you aren’t even consistently breaking up your paragraphs” really doesn’t help.
Saying the first part makes your opinions on what I and everyone else meant and understood hold less weight, as who is to know if you really took in all that was written, that you didn’t miss a significant word or phrase?
So I’m going to treat it as if you did not say that.
But saying the second part, that I don’t consistently break up my paragraphs, just comes off as you blaming me for your own misunderstandings.
I hope this comment does not come off as harsh, but I feel like it might be, so I apologize if that is the case.
— Okay. I mean, you’re literally the only one assuming Dorothy isn’t in pain, so you’re already the odd one out in this thread, but like, whatever you wanna believe I guess.
— Don’t really think there’s anything to say about this point. I have had the very simple same issue with your use of closeted this whole time.
— You very much did just insist that because they aren’t yelling at strangers, they can’t be Being Becky about coming out, and you just said that you’d always said you were being very literal about the yelling, but whatever.
— Holy shit.
I get that you’re probably embarrassed that you took repeated pot shots at my ~ability to read your comments~ because I wasn’t responding to every single offhanded word you said, but holy shit.
Anyway we are super duper done. Say whatever you wanna in response to this because not only am I not going to go to the trouble of reading it, I’m also not going to be talking to you ever again???
Jesus, cbwroses. Just so you know, NOT the way to handle someone admitting they have disabilities, lmao.
Actually I’m gonna flag your last reply-able comment and my own, because if I’d seen that attitude in response to someone ELSE telling you they’ve got learning disabilities, I’d sure as hell flag it.
What a gross attitude to take.
Your comments are hard to read because you ramble and talk in circles and instead of ever, ever, EVER conceding a point, insist you didn’t say what you literally said. I was letting all of that slide, when I clearly shouldn’t have been. Clearly I should never have let you get away with ignoring that I was always talking about Coming Out AND the crush, never claiming that anyone else had been talking about “only” coming out, or that I very clearly and repeatedly said “cis AND OR straight” but then you complained that Carla being very publicly out about being trans didn’t count because you were only talking about sexuality. And you ignored my point about how she was IN THE NEWS and complained in-comic that freshmen (like Joyce!!!) don’t know. And you ignored my point that Sierra MUST have very loudly told Joyce about her sexuality off-panel, because there’s no way Joyce would pick up on her being poly from osmosis.
No, you pick and choose what parts of my comments you wanna deign with responses, you ignore anything that’s inconvenient for you, and you just pretend you’ve never said any of the actual words you’ve said once they’re inconvenient for proving whatever point you think you were making, and you continuously accuse me of misreading you or failing to see when REALLY we’re in agreement, condescending as hell.
No one’s actually going to see this mess because it’s buried several pages back, but I invite you to try your sneering attitude about learning disabilities somewhere anyone else in this comment section is gonna see it and see how that works out for you, lmao.
You have been exhausting to talk to, and I look forward to never doing it again. Goodbye.
You say you won’t read this, fine, but I’ll write it anyway, because I’m not going to let you say bs about me without replying:
– you keep moving the goalposts and you don’t even see it.
That remark was about you justifying your moving of the goalposts the first time by saying everyone else but me was on the same page as you regarding her pain being from her not confessing her sexuality vs not confessing the crush.
The source of the pain was the point.
Now simply saying “everyone thinks she is in pain” doesn’t change that the source of the pain is the point of contention.
– Yes, you had the very same issue that hasn’t made sense almost from the beginning.
When I say what you say almost word for word, and you still find fault, then your issue doesn’t make sense.
– Do you even know what you’re saying here?
You’re bringing this up like you contradicted me, but that IS what I’ve been saying.
On a scale of 1-10, Becky is an 11.
I say she’s a 11 because she yelled at strangers.
No one else yells at strangers, so no one else is an 11, and no one else is using the Becky method.
I have not contradicted myself, but the fact that you seem to think so really makes me question what you think I’m saying or what you think you’re saying.
– I haven’t taken any potshots at you, let alone repeatedly.
You have been misunderstanding me: that is an objective fact.
You didn’t take me at my word when I said I literally meant yelling.
You also assumed I thought Dorothy shouldn’t tell Walky she was bi (never said that) and that Becky yelling at strangers was wrong (I said that degree wasn’t necessary and not for me).
But saying you are not getting my point or you are not understanding my meaning, those are not potshots.
That you feel they are is probably something you should think about.
– As for flagging comments, you do you.
I didn’t attack you and even apologized if I came off the wrong way, but you thinking I meant something more than I actually did has become par for the course.
– This last part of your reply is just unfair and wrong.
Ramble and talk in circles? I said I over explain myself.
Never conceding the point? Twice I’ve agreed to disagree.
I also told you to just assume I don’t know what being closeted means because you kept harping on it.
– I did not respond to your breakdown of all the women because I was the one who brought them up, so it was MY criteria that was the point.
There was no need to respond about everything you said about them when you already acknowledged my point, that they weren’t yelling at strangers.
But the reason I didn’t say anything about Sierra, Ruth, Marcie, and Leslie specifically is because I didn’t disagree (though I do believe there is a strip where someone actually explains the polycule to Joyce).
I didn’t ignore it; I agreed with it, so felt no need to address it.
I guess you wanted a pat on the back?
The one or two other times when I felt we were in agreement and I said something was because I felt you didn’t think we were, which I admitted was on me, at least in regards to Dorothy dumping Danny.
– Yes, I pick and choose which part I want to respond to because I was only responding to stuff I disagreed with or felt was misunderstood.
You didn’t do the same?
You think you responded to every single I wrote? Ok.
– Don’t tell the lie that I deny anything I’ve said.
What I deny is your interpretation of what I said.
– And condescending?
You repeatedly tell me I’m the only one who read things a certain way.
You repeatedly tell me you don’t think I understand what “in the closet” means.
Then you try to use the fact that I didn’t volunteer my personal experience (which you never asked for prior to mentioning it nor are entitled to) as validation for your assumption.
And now you’re claiming that every time you misunderstood me, I just lied about what I really meant or said to…what? Continue having this enjoyable discussion with you?
THAT is condescending.
Not me pointing out your misunderstanding of me which you, again, have objectively done.
– As for a sneering attitude about learning disabilities, you really missed the mark on that one.
I do not have a learning disability, so if I chose the wrong words, you’d know better than me.
But when I repeatedly say you misunderstand me, and then you tell me you have learning disabilities that could possibly explain those misunderstandings, I can easily just say “Oh, that’s why they think that way! It’s not my words. It’s not the way I’m saying it. It’s their disabilities’ fault.”
But I didn’t say that.
I said I’m going to pretend you didn’t mention them because while I believe everything I’ve said was clear, I acknowledge the possibility that I just might not be able to see my mistake.
Even if you don’t like my word choice or even my mentioning it at all, the idea that I was sneering at you/your disabilities was all in your head.
…Well! I was looking for something different here, but uh:
@cbwroses: Please do not assume I was on your side/your area in any of this. Li offered far more reasonable interpretations of what I said. I think this conversation really wore on you– I hate being misunderstood, too, and ongoing back and forths in these comments can get me worked up– but you really started to come off as a jerk here.
One point that seems to be missing from the general discussion around being in the closest and all that– are you aware that many people consider being in the closest to be painful? This seems important when the discussion is around the idea of suffering.
High chance you’ll never see this, but I’m not looking to bring it to the current comments… but considerations on how being in the closest feels seem like a big piece that was missing in the conversation, maybe part of what both of you weren’t sure the other understood.
Cue “I Loved You Once in Silence” from Camelot…
Although I already almost always use alright altogether.
That’s alot of words starting with “al-“.
Abdul Alhazred wrote a book with a lot of words that start with Al and end with the return of the elder gods.
People don’t give the great prophet HP Alovecraft enough credit.
Alright has been in common usage since the 1800s. It is just a word at this point
When I was in middle school, there was an English teacher who had a newspaper article on her wall titled “‘Alright’ Isn’t Right– But It Will Be,” and I still think about that when the topic comes up.
And yet I have had google drive tell me to change “all right” to “alright”, which means if it is still considered incorrect it won’t be for much longer.
It’s all going to come out at the protest.
Joyce and Dorothy will somehow wind up like that couple who were photographed kissing after getting knocked over by police in the 2011 Stanley Cup riots in Vancouver.
Yes, because more cheating and the ruination of Joyce’s relationship with a guy she loves and all the pain that entails is totally a thing to root for.
People having beef with the way languages change will never be less ridiculous to me, but especially so when that change happened like a century before they were born.
Language was fine before [unspecified date, probably before anyone on Earth was alive]
Meh, it’s all been downhill since people stopped speaking Proto-Indo-European.
I celebrate that language every March 14.
Nah, it’s the spread of PIE (and its descendants) everywhere that messed everything up.
1850s. It’s been almost 300 years.
Your math isn’t mathing.
*200, sorry
1850 -> 1950 -> 2050.
(25 years short, sure, but 2/3rds of the way there! I consider that close enough for an “almost”)
I hear math that bad. >:(
Right?
Speakers make the language, not the other way around. Grammar rules are de-scriptive, not pre-scriptive.
Whenever people complain about irregardless, I like to point out that it’s been in the dictionary longer than most people currently alive today.
I didn’t make it into the dictionary at all.
I’ve been in there for a few centuries.
taffy
noun
taf·fy ˈta-fē
plural taffies
Synonyms of taffy
1 : a boiled candy usually of sugar, molasses or corn syrup, butter, and often vinegar and vanilla that is pulled until porous and glossy
2 : insincere flattery
3 : an ungovernable autist who only learns rules for the purpose of breaking them
I was unaware of the second definition, and could only guess at the third.
dammit now I want taffy, better yet to make my own taffy.
ever have saltwater taffy from Santa Cruz? it’s good. they also have chocolate covered bacon there if you can believe that
Whatever else is going on here I, for one, am absolutely delighted to learn that at long last. Sarah is, barring possible unforeseen circumstances, going to get laid.
o7 <- saluting with an intent, serious fervor despite not giving one single damn about the military.
She is going to be insufferable, in the good way, for a full week (in-universe so like 6 months in real time) after this
Never thought I’d see Sarah belting out Elton John, but okay.
Isn’t that Becky singing?
I think you were correct before, because that’s definitely Becky singing
I mean I wouldn’t have bet on Elton John with her either.
It is a little bit funny.
Unfortunately, I think that was Becky.
Totally Becky. She’s got her arms up. And mouth _wide_ open.
Ok. Ok. Enough with the pile on. He needs a new squirrel sized monocle. He gets it, already.
It’s both frustrating and hilarious when you can tell multiple people didn’t refresh the page before responding all at once. Frustrating because goddamn it why did seven people have to correct me about how many R’s are in Siera’s name. Hilarious because of course they wouldn’t have thought to refresh first, they’re just reading through and responding as they go.
I’d probably comment here a lot more if I wasn’t constantly refreshing to discover someone else already said what I wanted. I didn’t refresh before posting this though. Today I’ve decided to live dangerously
Gasp!
There are 2 by the way
*Sierrra
You know I’d probably make a lot more comments, but every time I do I hit referesh and someone’s already made the comment I was gonna make! Makes me feel so unoriginal
Ah heck it happened again!
Y’know what’? In this chaotic sapphic disaster of a day, you go Sarah. Get that McHenry dick.
Appropriate gravatar is appropriate!
Even the angel on Dorothy’s shoulder figures a kiss would be honesty.
The devil knows Joyce’s roommate is out.
Dorothy needs the shoulder crew from Devil’s Panties to come help her out.
The crew on my shoulder keeps telling me that it would be allright to use allright and piss everybody off.
Every angel is just one fall away from being a devil.
It would also be cheating, which Dorothy is ALREADY castigating herself over. Why should she think more cheating would make anything better?
Because hornt.
Dorothy’s devil: Kiss her!
Dorothy: No!
DD: C’mon, you know you want to! Kiss her kiss her make out with her kiss her kiss her!
D: Nooo I’d be no better than Joe!
DD: ooh, good role model! Get in there and grab dem tidies!
D: rrrRRRR… *to Angel* Anything to contribute here??
Dorothy’s Angel: … Doesn’t Joyce have beautiful eyelashes?
D: …*bites lip* PROTESTS! MUST FOCUS ALL ENERGIES ON PROTESTS!!
*storms off*
Angel and Devil look at each other*
Angel: Yeah, we’re gonna break her!
*Angel and Devil high-five*
Also I imagine Dorothy’s Devil looks a lot like Becky, and Dorothy’s Angel looks a lot like Billie…
Dorothy’s angel looks like Joyce.
Dorothy, confess.
Confessions of a Two on the Kinsey Scale, Too Good for This World
For some reason all I can think of is an older generation democrat standing across a river of lava screaming at Dorothy:
“You were the Chosen Candidate, Dorothy. It was said you would exploit the gays not join them. Balance the Senate, not leave it in rainbows!”
Why make the Obi-wan analogue the villain?
I have no idea. That just floated out of my Star-Wars obsessed subconscious.
Fair. I heard the lines in Ewan McGregor’s voice, the cadence was well-crafted.
I can see this scene in Trainspotting, yes.
Becky: crawls across the ceiling
Not while I’m drinking coffee at the keyboard, damn it.
Choose Joyce, not drugs!
Eff you, alt text, it saves time and text space.
Do alot of people agree with you?
…
Jocelyne looks a lot like her little sister, doesn’t she? Like an older, more blonde clone…
Hm… Hm…
“Yep, totally thinking about your sister and definitely not you. And definitely not thinking of us with tangled limbs!”
…I hope the protest goes well, but I’m under no illusion
Guess it depends a lot on how much money the federal government is threatening to withhold from the university.
They don’t need to threaten to withhold money from the university for pigs to start pepper spraying and busting the heads of peaceful protestors.
Doesn’t even need to be a Republican in the White house. Or Governors mansion. Or mayors office. When the orange dumpster fire is gone and replaced by a Democrat it still won’t be safe to protest all the bullshit the government hasn’t stopped doing.
And even if it is safe to protest, the government still won’t have stopped doing it.
There were police snipers on the buildings at the protests at IU, the university changed decades long protest policy overnight, and over 30 protestors were arrested, when Biden was president, not threatening to withhold federal funding.
A part of me feels like Willis doing a storyline on police brutality at campus protests and the horror that would befall Jocelyn if she were arrested would probably be a little too real right now.
Yeah, that’d be just too grim, and doesn’t really jive with the comic’s tone. I also don’t think we’re going to actually see the protest, as that would require developing more concrete details about Bulmeria (at the very least, designing flags), and that’s not the comic’s focus. I think the protest was included as a topical reference (when this was written a year ago) to signify Jocelyne’s moral character and spur some character development for Dorothy, nothing else. But I suppose I could be wrong!
Huh, is Joyce onto her?
I’m think Joyce senses something big is going on, inside Dorothy’s head.
See the last panel here:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/tardy/
A single, eh? Is he in the forbidden zone at the end of Beck, with his own halfbath? Or is he in the mirror of Carla’s room, and shares a halfbath with the Star Trek RA. Or a secret other place there’s singles.
anyways, Dorothy’s going to kiss Jocelyne.
She’s gonna kiss her right on the cheek.
asknfdja I just realized with how damn similar they look, that is a real possibility. (But also Jocelyn would probably be one of the best people Dorothy could talk to about this)
I think “moving on” from Joyce to Jocelyne would be a lot more likely if Dorothy’s interest in Joyce were primarily physical…? But, um. I don’t think that’s the case.
I think if we’re looking for non-Joyce options here, Amazi-Girl is a lot more plausible, since Dorothy’s also interested in her, and unlike Amber, Amazi-Girl has never made any kind of statement wrt her ability to be attracted to women.
You don’t think they share mannerisms, speech patterns, personality traits? You think Dorothy would be “moving on” if she tried to kiss Jocelyne because she reminded her of Joyce? You don’t think Jocelyne has other traits, like her political convictions, that Dorothy might admire in her current directionless state?
You never think, “what would make this situation really awkward”?
I guess I should say I think those things and am baffled by the dismissal of the sisters’ similarity, including their physical appearance, with Dorothy’s interest in Joyce not being primarily physical. Like if Dorothy’s attraction was primarily physical, then I think it’d be pretty unlikely she’d make a pass at Jocelyne. Joyce and Jocelyne don’t have the same build (yet).
No, I don’t think Jocelyne is particularly similar to Joyce. I think what we’ve so far seen of her — which hasn’t been all that much! — is as similar to Becky as it is to Joyce. And those two girls aren’t that similar, either.
Yes, of course there are other admirable things about Jocelyne. But I currently think that part of the point of Dorothy and Walky getting back together is that when you’re really stuck on someone, it’s not that easy to be in a relationship with a different person, no matter how much that second person might otherwise be attractive to you.
It would certainly make this situation awkward! But I’m already so tired of people calling Dorothy a terrible horrible awful predatory person, it’s kind of interfering with my ability to feel any excitement over “Dorothy displaces her attraction for Joyce onto Joyce’s newly out, newly maybe-feeling-open-to-ladies trans sister”. The comment section would become completely unreadable, and it’s already pretty hard to read!
I think Jacob moving on from Joyce to Lucy made a ton of sense, because Lucy and Joyce are very similar, with Lucy being different in a few ways that only make them more compatible (like their shared religious beliefs). I thought Joe trying to displace his feelings for Joyce onto Liz made a ton of sense, and the backfiring of that was excellent drama, with the added bonus of Liz not being a character who was going to stick around, so her fallout from that night can happen off-screen.
I don’t think either of those scenarios are similar to what’s going on right now, since Jocelyne has been promoted to Cast Page, so she’s not going anywhere, and if Dorothy hurt her by kissing her while thinking of Joyce, the fallout of that would be huge and long-lasting. That, unlike telling Joyce about her feelings, I see as potentially seriously damaging Joyce’s relationship with Dorothy: monster who broke my sister’s heart says what??
But also, like, Dorothy falling for Joyce is just a much bigger deal. First-ever girl-crush, forcing her to completely redefine her sexuality, which is a big deal for most people. It would be a lot weirder if Willis had always planned for her to switch her affections to Jocelyne, who she only just met like the day before yesterday in-universe.
Clarifying: Dorothy falling for Joyce is a much bigger deal than Jacob falling for Joyce, so pulling the rug out from under it at the last minute by having Dorothy kiss a different girl before she’s even told Joyce her feelings, much less a girl who looks so much like Joyce but is otherwise not very similar to her, would be weird in a way that subverting expectations on Jacob-and-Joyce was not.
You’re reading a lot into what I said that I didn’t say.
Am I? I wasn’t even talking to you when I first said I didn’t see Dorothy switching her affections from Joyce to Jocelyne, lol. You’re not the only person who’s been talking about this idea.
like, I was just laying out my points. Whatever you think wasn’t a response to you probably wasn’t. Only the first three paragraphs were even really related to your comment.
“Joyce, would it be weird for you if I fucked your sister?”
“You hadn’t yet?”
On one hand, I want to see that development. On the other hand, I do not want to see that development.
Dorothy you might be the worst liar in this strip and that’s saying something
Dorothy: “…Baseball”
Definitely baseball.
Aw, the Tedd gravatar was so fitting.
It never changed, what do you mean “was”?
Sooo… if Sarah is at Tony’s, that means Joyce will be… all alone.
Alone. Alllllll alone in her room.
Right?
I’m guessing that gonna lead to Joyce and Joe hooking up and Dorothy taking Emotional Damage from it.
2d4 Emotional Damage
(d4s are the most damaging cuz they got those sharp corners)
Stepping on those things! :O
Have fun, Sarah~
And yeah, sure, Dotty. We believe you.
As subtle as always dotty
Almost as subtle as the time she tried to induce sensory overload in the hall by wearing a brightly colored shirt. Not sure why she thought that would work.
Dorothy is “a beautiful, brilliant idiot genius.”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/handkypanky/
“Definitely not thinking about how I taught you how to masturbate on a washing machine. Absolutely not.”
“Well of course, that would be a non sequitur.”
Washing machine or dryer?
I thought it was a dryer.
(better vibrations)
Dorothy thinking about where there is a not-in-a-relationship clone of Joyce… Who’s also taller than her… Is Joss in a relationship? I don’t think so, right?
“Yup, Joyce, I wanna protest about something too”
I dunno what’s bugging me more, Dorothy almost looking like an NB flag or the difficulty of making Dorothy confess even if it’s with a comfy chair
Why is the enby flag vibe bugging you?
I assume it’s the “almost” part. Like a “come on, you’re so close, just change the hues that extra little bit” kinda meme.
Personally, I like the idea of Dorothy being firmly cisgender and accidentally sending out nonbiney signals. It brings to mind Becky’s “your wardrobe sends out false positives” remark from the days of eld.
There are drums in the deep.
“They are coming.”
I mean, they will be coming.
I mean, she will be coming.
(*breaks out into godawful rendition of ‘she’ll be coming on the mountain when she comes.’)
Alt text is too real, lol
I endorse the proper spelling of “all right.” Damn right.
*high fives
Agreed! Fist bump!
Their’rez knoughw sutch theengk azz “””prawpurre sbpaeleing”.
We’re all all right! We’re all all right!
Yeah!
That and “Soggies May Rule”, because everyone, everywhere, is always thinking about that, all the time, right?
…right?!
I feel like Joyce should probably be as concerned about how those protests are going as Dorothy, considering her sister is there.
The use of “all right” (or “alright”, I personally don’t care) in song lyrics always remind me of Prisencolinensinainciusol. Where “all right” are the only actual words in the entire song.
I love that song! I played the original for my ESL students, lo, last century. They were mostly Spanish speaking, but they all agreed with and enjoyed that song.
‘You should join me, Joyce.’
‘For the protests?’
‘…yesssss?’
Yup. That’s the face of someone who totally isn’t thinking of kissing Joyce under the moonlight.
Sarah is FINALLY getting some
‘Bout. Damn. Time.
How do these children know a song that came and went 3 decades before they were born?
The same way you and I know “Alexander’s Rag Time Band”. Some songs are just classics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night%27s_Alright_for_Fighting#In_popular_culture
I like the idea that Becky watches professional wrestling.
I’m not sure I every thought she didn’t.
She absolutely ships Toni/Mariah
Lots of people know songs many decades older than when they were born. Maybe they had older family members who played those songs a lot when they were kids. Or they heard the song in a movie or TV show. Or they just developed a taste for a genre of music that’s much older than them.
I have a track in my MP3 collection that was recorded in 1899.
It’s a Scott Joplin rag as played by Actually Scott Joplin, originally recorded as a player piano roll.
Nice.
The oldest I’ve got is some Robert Johnson blues which dates back to the 30s, I think?
So you’re saying you’re a time traveler!
It’s the only way you could know such an old song, after all
Oh, right, between Jennifer and Dorothy’s big feels I forgot about the protest. I am once again concerned for Jocelyn’s safety. Erk.
Okay, I’ve never looked up DoA locations on Google Maps because I don’t want to be a creep that conflates a fictional story with a real place with a real people in it. I got curious about how serious the protest is if it can kind-of-sort-of be heard from campus, so I figured an ultra high level “how far apart are these two landmarks” search would be okay.
Assuming they are at Bloomington (which I think was established already although I can’t remember when I exactly), Dunn Meadow is only a 3 minute walk from them (which makes sense because Joe asked Joyce if she wanted to drop by to see her sister before lunch). Having passed by multiple peaceful protests on foot, this brings me to think it’s currently busy, likely still mostly peaceful, maybe a bit if chanting and/or the odd speakerphone amplifying voices. So it’s very likely that Jocelyn (and presumably Asma) are still safe for now.
… For now…
side note but i’m so proud of jocelyn for protesting!!
Just keep pushing those feelings down, Dorothy. What could possibly go wrong?
Jocelyn is gonna sort out her sister’s queer friend again isn’t she? She’s the older wiser person that helped Ethan come clean. Now she can do the same for Dorothy.
This is my personal bet for the upcoming preview panels of them talking more.
Oh Dorothy 🥺
Jocelyne’s not gonna get arrested is she?
She’s definitely not thinking about your, brains.
I’m just gonna say it:
the hypersexualizing of Dorothy’s romantic feelings for Joyce is really gross.
Commenters can’t even say “this is cute” without being accused of calling for Joyce and Dorothy to fuck in public, and there’s been a lot of “you’re all too busy getting off on this to think about Joe’s feelings” and it’s really, really uncomfortable to read.
I’m not saying these comments are all coming from queerphobes, I’m not even saying they’re all coming from straight people, and I’m certainly not saying there’s no sexual component to Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce; there probably is some of that!
But I am sure not enjoying the constant reminder that society views all sapphic attraction as inherently predatory and hypersexual.
It reminds me of this upsetting response (from years ago) Tom Siddell (Gunnerkrigg Court) gave to a message he received on Formspring.
Fan message: “Just wanted to let you know: some of us ask about characters being gay, because we love your characters and want to identify with them better. Also being gay or wanting to read about gay characters isn’t just about “sexualising things”.”
Tom: “It is on the Internet, where the topic of homosexuality is never deeper than an edited image of Annie fucking Kat.”
Like I said, that was years ago; I continue to follow Gunnerkrigg Court and can’t imagine Tom would say something like that now. But as a young queer person who was interested in everything about my favorite webcomic? Ouch.
Exactly this.
How unfair to everyone involved, including the people drawing that fanart, to be held to a standard that is absolutely never, ever, ever applied to presumed straight fans of m/f ships.
People can want a slipshine of Joyce/Joe and no one will assume that’s the entirety of their interest in the ship, but if someone says “now kiss” (invoking a famous meme) about Joyce and Dorothy, we must be thinking with whatever the commentariat assumes is in our pants.
Not to be all “I’m ace” again, because honestly I would be just as uncomfortable about strangers speculating about my Pants Situation even if I weren’t, but ughhhhhhh.
What, predatory? What exactly makes it “predatory” if Dorothy has realised she likes Joyce in a sexual way and would really like to get busy with her? How is that “predatory”?
I would invite you to re-read my comment if you think I’m the one saying there’s anything predatory about Dorothy having feelings (or any kind of sexual attraction) for Joyce.
To break it down slightly, I’m pretty sure Li is perceiving a societal attitude toward sapphic attraction that paints it as predatory, in particular the displays of it here on this very website. There’s a vibe in the air of “Dorothy’s into Joyce and hasn’t instantaneously confessed those feelings to Joyce before she’s even finished processing them, so she’s preying on Joyce until further notice”, and Li’s definitely not the only one picking up on it.
I’ll put this politely and to nobody in specific (all use of “you” here is the Royal You). If you think anything Dorothy’s doing, in regards to this newly admitted attraction to Joyce, is screwy or sideways or predatory or creepy or any of those silly little negative interpretations, you’re being fucking stupid and need to get your head out of your ass.
Thank you, Taffy.
Definitely Royal You, I’m not trying to call out any one person in specific. Just the increasingly overwhelming background radiation of the comments every time Dorothy breathes.
To be extra clear, I’ll call one specific person out with no regrets or hesitation, and that Royal You will get a whole lot more personal, if I think they’re being extra stupid about it. Dorothy needs oxygen to live, maybe we can let the poor cartoon girl breathe some Kinsey 2 breaths without making it a federal fucking case.
But have we considered that it’s actually very selfish of her to breathe, when her breathing might materially harm Joyce???? By causing her to experience one (1) moment of slight discomfort??????
There are suffocating kids in Africa who could breathe that fictional air.
Dorothy is the worst, it’s like she doesn’t even care about those kids. :'(
Hmm, I think Dottie might be having some trouble looking at Joyce right now. Kinda hard to see, but you can tell she’s looking away from the very start.
It’s OK! That song really doesn’t slur “All Right” into “Alright.”
Dorothy, tell the truth please.
Wild comments today.
You can be a guy who likes girls and have friends that are girls.
You can be lesbian and have friends that are girls.
You can be attracted to your friend and still be a friend. We cannot help what we find attractive, but we can dictate our actions. It does not automatically mean you are going to deliberately lust after them. Humans can be better than that and assuming they cannot is assuming lesser of them for no reason.
You can even have feelings for a person that is your friend and carry on. Not all feelings turn a platonic relationship to a non-platonic one. Some people can’t carry that, but some can. Again, making that assumption and then using that as a weapon of judgement against them belittles the person and disrespects their agency.
I don’t know if anyone needed to hear any of the above but judging from the comments I sure think so.
Gawd I really hope nothing I said sounded like I think Dorothy needs Joyce to return her feelings in order to stop being in so much pain. I just think Dorothy needs to be honest about her feelings, with both Joyce and Walky, if they’re as strong as I think they are. Even if Joyce totally rejects her, that would help so much with Dorothy’s ability to move on.
Getting rejected sucks a lot, but when you’ve been futilely pining for a long while, it’s like finally just ripping a bandaid off. Important for getting past it emotionally, imho.
ok, the stage is set for Joyce to have her room all to herself this evening. The evening following her date with Joe. The date he suggested after she “implied” she was ready for a bit more physicality. Were Dorothy to decide that tonight is the night to share with Joyce, it will definitely not go well.
It would go well for *me*, a messy bench who loves drama.
“That and your sweet soft formerly Christian bottom as my pillow, Joyce”