Can’t say I agree. I think making a big show of your remorse can become performative and counterproductive. If there is a conversation ongoing and you make a slip, anything more than a “Ah, shit, *correct word*” brings their identity front and center in a way that they may not appreciate.
As long as good faith is understood, big apologies all the time are more self-affirming than polite behavior.
If you find yourself doing it often, maybe that’s a good time to confront your assumptions, but people are human. Prone to error, but prone to correcting them as well.
Foot in their mouth in an adorkable way? 100% yes. Foot in their mouth in a “constantly being an asshole by accident” way? …Less yes, but if they’re sincere enough and it’s genuinely accidental, it’s not completely un-cute.
Guy who constantly has really strange opinions about The Legend of Zelda. Not offensive or anything, they’re just odd, like that time he said Hyrule seems like it’s based on Antwerp.
The games are generally decent with the occasional gem, if the reviews by people I trust on gaming are anything to go by. Is there a movie? IF so, it is probably bad.
I think it’s a charming show. Zelda has a lot of attitude, and this knight guy (he doesn’t wear armor though?) called Link is constantly trying to get her to kiss him, but his fairy companion Sprite is like, super jealous of Zelda so she gets in the way a lot. There’s this pig wizard called Gannon who’s always trying to steal the royal family’s mystical triangle too, so they stay pretty busy.
…which is not exactly what happened. She came out to Joyce after all. What happened is that Becky actually picks up her phone when she gets a call from Jocelyne. What happened is that Joyce made herself unavailable for family checking in on her.
Maybe. We don’t really know. We don’t know when Jocelyne first came out to Becky or why.
Though she did explicitly say it was because Becky was trustworthy and could keep a secret
I can picture it now. “I’m a little hurt you didn’t come out to me before now.” “I’ve actually been trying to do it since last year but you never answer your phone.”
*”See I figured out I don’t have to cause I’m great at deducing what anyone in the family is calling to tell me.” “Oh really, what did you figure out I was coming to visit for?” “Errr”
i also want the Joyce follow-up of “OH NO I WAS BAD TO MY FAMILY I’M AWFUL” just so Jocelyne can tell her “its not weird to want to disengage from this family, we live in fundie drama hell.”
I mean, in a sense, you could argue that his Sex Animal persona and behavior were a deliberate attempt to shield himself from his own emotional intelligence. He feared that he would hurt people the way he perceives his Dad has; he’s naturally very introspective, and at some point, he came up with a way to push down that introspection, because he was encountering an anxiety within himself, for which he didn’t yet have a rational answer.
If he wasn’t emotionally intelligent, he wouldn’t have needed to go so hard on Only Casual Boning, All The Time; but, he was genuinely afraid of actually introducing emotional or romantic stakes to his or any of his partners’ lives.
That kind of justification makes sense NOW, but originally he was written as very one-dimensional. It wouldn’t make sense for early Joe to have this kind of conversation in any context.
I mean, I’m not really privy to the broader Williverse, so I don’t have a frame of reference as to whether he was Just A Dumb Jackass in a different entire universe. But I would hazard a guess that what you said applies to the vast majority of the cast, too?
Sure, Joyce may be making it a bit about her reactions. But she cares and she has good intentions and tbh that’s all I’d ever want from my sibling. The minutiae don’t need to be sweated.
Basically, she’s hyper-focusing on it because its a big thing that just happened in her life, and while its not all about her, it is at least a little bit involving her, and she’s at least somewhat aware that her sister was taking a risk coming out at all.
Basically, she’s overcorrecting, and realizing that on being gently pushed. She’s doing fine, just, you know, needs a gentle push on occasion.
Plus, like…I can’t possibly think of any underlying reason, why Joyce could have internalized that making absolutely sure you over-perform your emotions, to be properly understood and valued was a normal social behavior that everybody was doing, all the time XD
“This isn’t a healthy expectation for you to have of yourself and it doesn’t actually help your sister the way you want it to” is a bit more than sweating minutae. Yes, she’s got the important bit down, but it wouldn’t hurt for her to have a couple more bits.
Well we know Joyce is into ass play and being crushed, likely also big boobs.
Becky is a huge sub. Give her orders and she melts.
Dina seems like a dom on the surface but I think that is mostly because Becky’s reactions entertain her. I think she likes to study based on the things she said to Joe once.
We know Jennifer and Ruth like rough play. Those girls need to develop a safety word at least for the safety of future partners.
Sal? Surprisingly boring maybe? We more know what she’s not into. Maybe someone with a slipshine subscription can give some insights.
I think Dorothy is secretly the dom based on easily she falls into telling people what to do.
We know Sarah likes tall even if she’s coming around to the idea of short kings. At the right angle everyone can be a giant! Lets put macrophillia in there too!
These are just some I can think of off the top of my head. Anyone else got more?
Eh, enjoying deep pressure is really common for autistic and otherwise neurodivergent folks. It’s great for getting one’s brain to chill out, and tends to produce a feeling of calm. That might not be a kink so much as a plain ol’ “this feels nice”.
What about her wanting him to crush her flat with his ass like a rolling pin? I think she said something close to that once either to him or Dorothy. Oh! I also forgot to put voyeurism down for Joyce kinks. She really wants to watch some people go at it.
Joe, maybe don’t discuss the subject of fetishes in front of Joyce, that’s advanced stuff, she’s still very new to this. And with her level of…enthusiasm, you may start getting some very odd requests you aren’t prepared to deal with.
I feel like a looooot of people need to be told this. (Not exclusively about trans stuff, but *very* much about trans stuff. Seriously, a quick self-correction and moving on is so much better than a minute-long litany of apologies until *you* end up trying to make *them* feel better. T_T)
This exactly. Like, I’m not stupid; I know that overwriting habitual patterns of thought and speech take time. You’re not gonna get it right away, and that’s completely normal and not a sign of any moral failing. Hell, I’m trans and it takes me time to get new names and pronouns into my head! So, trust me, I get it – mistakes happen. What matters to me much more is that you believe my new identity is valid and real, and that you care enough to put in the effort to start changing your habits. And, as it happens, as long as you’re doing those two things you WILL get used to new names and pronouns. They’ll become second nature.
I know this might run counter to public trans pushback against deadnaming and misgendering, but the stuff we push back on is when people do that shit on purpose to hurt us, or refuse to put in the work to change their thoughts and/or correct themselves because they don’t care. What we get angry about is the malice or apathy much more than the misgendering itself.
So like – seriously, to all cis people, please chill out. The self-flagellation is just kind of exhausting. And as long as you correct yourself and get better at it over time, I know I’ll be more than happy with that, and I think most other trans people will be too.
Self flagellation is actually a great way of putting it, it’s the result of following this widespread unspoken rule where being punished for doing wrong is an indispensable step in keeping moral order, it’s assumed we want/need this to happen but that’s really just projection lol
Yeah… I’m a straightwhitecismale, but this reminds me of when a (female-shaped, it’s complicated) friend of mine started telling people about what their ex had done to them this one time. (Don’t feel like writing it, but it’s a four-letter word that starts with R.) Apparently most of the times they told guys about it, they ended up having to console the guy, because he felt so terrible about it, even if he couldn’t have done anything. As they said, that reaction made sense when it was their dad they’d just told. Everyone else, though…
I’ve always been bizarrely proud of not having been one of those guys, and somewhat disgusted at that pride, and even more disturbed that I should be the exception. I mean, sure, it’s great that those guys felt horrible on hearing about the event, but, well, keep that to yourself, will you? Your existential angst is your own, the person telling you this is more important than you at the moment. Go whine about how you couldn’t be a knight in shining armor elsewhere, christ…
I understand the slip-ups since Joyce only recently found out, but does anyone else treat themselves so poorly because they messed up a name or pronoun?
I know she shouldn’t worry about dead naming, or using the wrong pronoun as long as she is trying to change, but I also consistently beat myself up every time I make a mistake like that. Anyone else?
Same for me. When my sister’s girlfriend transitioned I fucked up a few times at first, and then proceeded to mentally berate myself any time I so much as thought the wrong pronoun until I got it right consistently.
Your mind is a great place to practice someone’s pronouns, but you can do it without the berating. When people around me change pronouns, I practice referring to them by those pronouns in my head a lot to adjust. Depending on context, it might not be a person you talk about in the third person a lot, especially around them (like if you mainly interact one-on-one), but you can practice a bunch of times mentally. (Also, I don’t want to think of the person in a way that I know feels wrong to them; less in a “thought crime” way as much as “these thoughts affect other thoughts and views affect my actions and interactions.”)
I’ve been on both sides of the name/pronoun slip-ups, and when I do it, I do feel like shit (*especially* since it sucks when people mess up mine). But there’s a difference between feeling like shit and “apologizing” in a way that puts the focus on the mistake-maker’s feelings instead of the person they’re apologizing to. (I’m not suggesting you do that, I’m just trying to clarify there’s a distinction between beating oneself up in one’s own head and verbally eviscerating oneself in front of the person.)
And even aside from that: if it’s an honest mistake, and you’re genuinely trying your best, then that’s all you can do. If you slip up on occasion, you’re human. If the people you’re slipping up about know that you’re sincere and you respect them, they aren’t going to hate you forever for a mistake. So you shouldn’t be overly cruel to yourself, either. If they care about you, they’d never want you to do that.
(Personal anecdote in case it helps: I can’t pass to save my life, so I’m misgendered 90% of the time at work. Weirdly enough, the coworker who handles slip-ups the best is also one who slips up fairly regularly. Like at least once a month. But she just quickly apologizes and corrects herself and moves on, and compared to how some other coworkers handle it, it comes as such a relief. I don’t get mad at her when she slips, because I know she’s a really kind person and she’s doing her best. I hope that helps at least a bit?)
In one of my periods of pronoun growth, I had a phase where I was often messing up pronouns, but in weird ways. Like, I might refer to someone by a pronoun that is neither the one associated with their assigned sex nor the one they use, or I might mess up cis people’s pronouns. I messed up my cisgender mom’s pronouns at one point. Eventually, my brain got more where I needed it to be.
So, can anyone else put their foot in their mouth? Literally, I mean? It came up in conversation with someone that I’m able to do that and they acted like that was out of the ordinary
When I was a lot younger and at peak flexibility, I could easily put my foot up *to* my mouth. *In* my mouth, not so much, but my mouth is annoyingly small, lol
Haha right? I’m able to put both ankles behind my ears at the same time. “Unfortunately”, both me and my partner are asexual so it never occurred to either of us that I could have been making bank. :p
The funniest thing is that I ended up getting diagnosed after my doctor saw me do what I thought was a “normal stretch” (arms behind me and pull them up and back all the way— only way for me to stretch my upper back muscles at all) and she got squicked out because the human shoulder and elbow ARE NOT SUPPOSED to move that way.
And that’s the story of how I was referred to the EDS clinic and got a diagnosis as an older adult. Sure wish I had been diagnosed sooner cos the chronic pain from wearing my joints out doing things I didn’t know was harmful all my life kinda sucks! But what can ya do?
But seriously tho, TheKelliestKelly, if you have joint pain and at least 4/9 on the Beighton Scale, you have EDS or HSD.
Being able to reach your foot to your mouth isn’t something that the average person can usually do— especially if you haven’t trained to do so via ballet or gymnastics etc. It suggests that you have at least a couple hypermobile joints.
Hypermobility can be benign, but if you’re getting pain daily without an explanation like an injury etc, you might want to get checked out.
(Reminder to everyone that the normal amount of pain one should feel daily without an explanation like an injury etc is ZERO. If you are any number higher you should consult a doctor about your chronic pain. And yes, this includes headaches.)
I can get my feet to forearm’s length of my mouth – and I have unusually long forearms.
When I was little, I was able to do the lotus seat, but I could feel the cartilage in my knees twist. Now it’s mostly replaced by bone, and I can’t do it anymore.
I was running into that, but it turns out that, in the US, Medicare will pay for you to go to a foot doctor regularly to get your toenails trimmed. So instead I bend over for the exercise.
Not that I don’t get why this would irk Joyce, but if Jocelyn is telling Becky, it also is probably practical to let Dina in on it, too, so it stands to reason she’d find out before Joyce.
That being said, she’s probably finding out before John, so you’ve got that going for you, Joyce.
It’s can be easier to come out to people you are less close to. But it can hurt feeling like you are less trusted. But you shouldn’t someone else’s scary experience about you. But your feelings are valid and this new information requires thinking and adjusting. But- But- But-
Ha, everyone is doing great, supportive, respectful while also being human.
And also, crucially, Becky and Dina were openly queer. Like, if you aren’t queer, you simply don’t understand the level of difference in discourse, between your queer friends, versus people who still exist purely within comphet social programming. There’s an inherent level of trust and comfort with other queer people, when it comes to specifically queer issues, and Joyce hasn’t come to any sort of way where she could intuit or understand this reality.
For years, we’ve all foolishly believed that Willis had “Butts Disease”, but now the truth comes out! He actually has a massive foot fetish that he’s barely been able to conceal.
From now on, DoA will start to focus on Sierra and her bare feet, as Joyce starts to imitate here. Soon, the whole cast will be walking around campus bare foot, and Willis be selling Slipshines of Joe sucking on Joyce’s toes at night!
(Personally, I better be wrong, because while butts can be sexy, feet gross me out)
as someone who is also has some neurodivergent spice in their brain (though as of now I remain undiagnosed) I do think Joyce is correct in thinking she has to be performatively contrite to show she REALLY is sorry. Because neurodivergent people often get accused of being insincere or unfeeling when we don’t emote according to the social script, even if internally they’re really going through it or maybe they verbally said sorry but their face remained stoic.
But alas, if you perform too much you ALSO get accused of being insincere. Sorry Joyce, I know this is shit advice but try to perform while not performing too much.
I bet that internally Joyce has not even processed how she actually feels about Jocelyn’s coming out. I bet she’s fine with it, or will be fine with it in the end, but right now she’s not even properly thought about it, she’s still in the “there are the right words to say and faces to make so people don’t think I’m an asshole”
I have found that, specifically regarding misnaming or misgendering, people generally prefer if you are as quick about it as possible. Performing distress whenever you slip can make them feel like they’re stressful to be around. “So when he — when she went to the store, she found out…” or “So when he went to the store -+
– oops sorry, she — she found out that…”
At least if you’re fixing your own mistake. If they had to point it out to you then usually more “fuck I’m sorry” is desired. Generally, the longer it’s been since the slip up the more contrite you should be, hence why you don’t mention it if you’re correcting it from one word ago but say a quick sorry if it was a sentence ago.
In that sense it is exactly as if you used the wrong name for them. You correct yourself, done. Nobody cares except your status as a good brained name-rememberer went down by 0.1%, which, you know, is fair because your brain is indeed not cooperating.
I am glad she is talking that out with Joe, Jocelyne should not have to deal with other people’s anxiety about this. I think it is okay to feel anxious about getting a trans person’s pronouns right (after you have known them under other pronouns for a long time) but I think you should just do your best with them, and if you feel the need to talk about your fear of making mistakes talk to someone else about it.
Joyce would do great on puritanical fandom tumblr/twitter/whatever else because she’s currently more concerned with appearing to do well than actually doing so.
I mean it’s an effort, and she’s improving fast, but that’s nonetheless a persistent issue.
Joe has some good advice here. Joyce is already doing good by accepting her sister for who she is after only just recently learning that the sibling she knew as “Josh” all her life is actually Jocelyne. She shouldn’t expect herself to be perfect immediately and never accidentally use the wrong name or pronouns.
Yes, Joyce is kinda making Jocelyne s decision to be to herself. But unconsciously she has been despise a lot of times. Anyone would freak out like her, to make sure twice you didn’t mistake anything.
So, I read comics “carefully”, by which I mean I do my utmost to read them in the order they are supposed to be on the page, frame by frame. The artist/author has a story to tell, and a visual representation in mind for the telling and I choose to follow along with what they have put on the page. I don’t read the payoff frame before I read the actual content/joke, whatever. For DoA I read Willis’ mouseover first. Then, as I read through the storyboard, I figure out the reference.
So, when O read today’s, I could not help but notice at first glance that it was Joyce and probably Joe (at the time, I didn’t happen to see Joe.)
Anyhoo, first thing I read is “feeeeeeeeeeet”, only mentally I read it as “fweeeeeeeet”, like a whistle, so I figure that Joyce got all upset and her brain ‘relieved pressure’ …. you know, “fweeeeet”. 🙂
But a reference to sucking on toe’s as part of Joe’s ‘game’ with the numbered chicks? Yeah, I can see that.
Now I remember ToeDad and have to admit, I’m curious about Willis’ obvious toe fetish…
However, in Joyce’s case, it’s not performative or intentionally making it about herself. She has some serious issues. Obviously Jocelyne is fully in the right to not tell Joyce first, just that Joyce’s shiz is coming from a different place. Not, “Look at me I’m so good,” but, “I need to be perfect because I still have religious trauma where not being perfect = I’m evil”
Seriously, Joyce needs some serious psychiatric help
It’s going to be interesting to see how Joyce reacts if Jocelyn is a liberal Christian versus atheist and doesn’t share her “all or nothing” approach ala Becky.
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OTOH, freaking out is a great tool for reinforcing what you’ve learned! /s
True, nothing breeds new habits like terror and self-recrimination.
and if it’s not working, it can only ever mean you aren’t trying hard enough! /s
Christian fundamentalism in a nutshell.
Can’t say I agree. I think making a big show of your remorse can become performative and counterproductive. If there is a conversation ongoing and you make a slip, anything more than a “Ah, shit, *correct word*” brings their identity front and center in a way that they may not appreciate.
As long as good faith is understood, big apologies all the time are more self-affirming than polite behavior.
If you find yourself doing it often, maybe that’s a good time to confront your assumptions, but people are human. Prone to error, but prone to correcting them as well.
hot tip:
when someone appends a sentence with /s
that indicates they are being sarcastic
I am so incredibly tired I didn’t even see it. My bad!
You’re going to prison.
Dang! I thought that meant “sexy voice”.
I mistaked! /s
Well now I’m just reading that in a sexy voice.
I didn’t even know /s was suppose to be sarcastic.
If you want to be a little more obvious [sarc]TEXT[/sarc] is also acceptable.
I know the joke was about literal feet, but I’m sure some find a guy tripping over his own words all the time cute.
Dorothy definitely does.
Foot in their mouth in an adorkable way? 100% yes. Foot in their mouth in a “constantly being an asshole by accident” way? …Less yes, but if they’re sincere enough and it’s genuinely accidental, it’s not completely un-cute.
Guy who constantly has really strange opinions about The Legend of Zelda. Not offensive or anything, they’re just odd, like that time he said Hyrule seems like it’s based on Antwerp.
I haven’t seen The Legend of Zelda. Is it any good?
The games are generally decent with the occasional gem, if the reviews by people I trust on gaming are anything to go by. Is there a movie? IF so, it is probably bad.
Be kinda weird for a cartoon from 30 years ago to get a movie nowadays, especially one that ran for such a short amount of time.
It has a lot of video games, though, and apparently all you need to get a movie is one video games.
I think it’s a charming show. Zelda has a lot of attitude, and this knight guy (he doesn’t wear armor though?) called Link is constantly trying to get her to kiss him, but his fairy companion Sprite is like, super jealous of Zelda so she gets in the way a lot. There’s this pig wizard called Gannon who’s always trying to steal the royal family’s mystical triangle too, so they stay pretty busy.
Who did the royal family steal the mystical triangle from?
Is your friend from Antwerp, perhaps?
If so, he wouldn’t be the first to assume that everything is based on Antwerp.
Which friend? I just invented a guy.
Isn’t this basically how Hugh Grant started his career?
Must sting learning your sister didn’t trust you. Understandable but it hurts.
…which is not exactly what happened. She came out to Joyce after all. What happened is that Becky actually picks up her phone when she gets a call from Jocelyne. What happened is that Joyce made herself unavailable for family checking in on her.
That definitely makes sense. I wonder how many years back now that month-ago call was 😅
Joyce sent her to voicemail in November 2021 our time.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/scanner/
Maybe. We don’t really know. We don’t know when Jocelyne first came out to Becky or why.
Though she did explicitly say it was because Becky was trustworthy and could keep a secret
I can picture it now. “I’m a little hurt you didn’t come out to me before now.” “I’ve actually been trying to do it since last year but you never answer your phone.”
*”See I figured out I don’t have to cause I’m great at deducing what anyone in the family is calling to tell me.” “Oh really, what did you figure out I was coming to visit for?” “Errr”
i genuinely want this so bad.
i also want the Joyce follow-up of “OH NO I WAS BAD TO MY FAMILY I’M AWFUL” just so Jocelyne can tell her “its not weird to want to disengage from this family, we live in fundie drama hell.”
Joe is understanding things very well. I should give him credit here.
Joe is generally a shockingly emotionally intelligent person for the kind of identity he chose to take up.
I mean, in a sense, you could argue that his Sex Animal persona and behavior were a deliberate attempt to shield himself from his own emotional intelligence. He feared that he would hurt people the way he perceives his Dad has; he’s naturally very introspective, and at some point, he came up with a way to push down that introspection, because he was encountering an anxiety within himself, for which he didn’t yet have a rational answer.
If he wasn’t emotionally intelligent, he wouldn’t have needed to go so hard on Only Casual Boning, All The Time; but, he was genuinely afraid of actually introducing emotional or romantic stakes to his or any of his partners’ lives.
That kind of justification makes sense NOW, but originally he was written as very one-dimensional. It wouldn’t make sense for early Joe to have this kind of conversation in any context.
I mean, I’m not really privy to the broader Williverse, so I don’t have a frame of reference as to whether he was Just A Dumb Jackass in a different entire universe. But I would hazard a guess that what you said applies to the vast majority of the cast, too?
Sure, Joyce may be making it a bit about her reactions. But she cares and she has good intentions and tbh that’s all I’d ever want from my sibling. The minutiae don’t need to be sweated.
Basically, she’s hyper-focusing on it because its a big thing that just happened in her life, and while its not all about her, it is at least a little bit involving her, and she’s at least somewhat aware that her sister was taking a risk coming out at all.
Basically, she’s overcorrecting, and realizing that on being gently pushed. She’s doing fine, just, you know, needs a gentle push on occasion.
Plus, like…I can’t possibly think of any underlying reason, why Joyce could have internalized that making absolutely sure you over-perform your emotions, to be properly understood and valued was a normal social behavior that everybody was doing, all the time XD
This. This right here. This is the thing.
“This isn’t a healthy expectation for you to have of yourself and it doesn’t actually help your sister the way you want it to” is a bit more than sweating minutae. Yes, she’s got the important bit down, but it wouldn’t hurt for her to have a couple more bits.
Yeah no, if you made my coming out all about how great you are reacting to it, then the minutiae absolutely should be sweated
Thanks for making me wonder what fetishes the cast have now, thanks.
Though considering Ethan’s whole deal with Roadblock I have to assume name-calling is one of his.
Butts and feet.
It’s butts and feet all the way down.
Based on that one strip where he confesses a fantasy of being a drop of sweat evaporating off of Ethan’s body, I diagnose Danny with vore.
Well we know Joyce is into ass play and being crushed, likely also big boobs.
Becky is a huge sub. Give her orders and she melts.
Dina seems like a dom on the surface but I think that is mostly because Becky’s reactions entertain her. I think she likes to study based on the things she said to Joe once.
We know Jennifer and Ruth like rough play. Those girls need to develop a safety word at least for the safety of future partners.
Sal? Surprisingly boring maybe? We more know what she’s not into. Maybe someone with a slipshine subscription can give some insights.
I think Dorothy is secretly the dom based on easily she falls into telling people what to do.
We know Sarah likes tall even if she’s coming around to the idea of short kings. At the right angle everyone can be a giant! Lets put macrophillia in there too!
These are just some I can think of off the top of my head. Anyone else got more?
Eh, enjoying deep pressure is really common for autistic and otherwise neurodivergent folks. It’s great for getting one’s brain to chill out, and tends to produce a feeling of calm. That might not be a kink so much as a plain ol’ “this feels nice”.
What about her wanting him to crush her flat with his ass like a rolling pin? I think she said something close to that once either to him or Dorothy. Oh! I also forgot to put voyeurism down for Joyce kinks. She really wants to watch some people go at it.
Joe! Joe gets it.
Panel 2 Joe speaks to the ENTIRE INTERNET.
Presumably, Joe has learned this as a result of meeting basically every girl who’s ever been into Danny.
Joe only recently met Amazigirl.
What do you mean? He’s known Sal since last semester.
There is no “You win the Internets” button so I reported you instead.
Joe, maybe don’t discuss the subject of fetishes in front of Joyce, that’s advanced stuff, she’s still very new to this. And with her level of…enthusiasm, you may start getting some very odd requests you aren’t prepared to deal with.
I feel like a looooot of people need to be told this. (Not exclusively about trans stuff, but *very* much about trans stuff. Seriously, a quick self-correction and moving on is so much better than a minute-long litany of apologies until *you* end up trying to make *them* feel better. T_T)
This exactly. Like, I’m not stupid; I know that overwriting habitual patterns of thought and speech take time. You’re not gonna get it right away, and that’s completely normal and not a sign of any moral failing. Hell, I’m trans and it takes me time to get new names and pronouns into my head! So, trust me, I get it – mistakes happen. What matters to me much more is that you believe my new identity is valid and real, and that you care enough to put in the effort to start changing your habits. And, as it happens, as long as you’re doing those two things you WILL get used to new names and pronouns. They’ll become second nature.
I know this might run counter to public trans pushback against deadnaming and misgendering, but the stuff we push back on is when people do that shit on purpose to hurt us, or refuse to put in the work to change their thoughts and/or correct themselves because they don’t care. What we get angry about is the malice or apathy much more than the misgendering itself.
So like – seriously, to all cis people, please chill out. The self-flagellation is just kind of exhausting. And as long as you correct yourself and get better at it over time, I know I’ll be more than happy with that, and I think most other trans people will be too.
Self flagellation is actually a great way of putting it, it’s the result of following this widespread unspoken rule where being punished for doing wrong is an indispensable step in keeping moral order, it’s assumed we want/need this to happen but that’s really just projection lol
Yeah… I’m a straightwhitecismale, but this reminds me of when a (female-shaped, it’s complicated) friend of mine started telling people about what their ex had done to them this one time. (Don’t feel like writing it, but it’s a four-letter word that starts with R.) Apparently most of the times they told guys about it, they ended up having to console the guy, because he felt so terrible about it, even if he couldn’t have done anything. As they said, that reaction made sense when it was their dad they’d just told. Everyone else, though…
I’ve always been bizarrely proud of not having been one of those guys, and somewhat disgusted at that pride, and even more disturbed that I should be the exception. I mean, sure, it’s great that those guys felt horrible on hearing about the event, but, well, keep that to yourself, will you? Your existential angst is your own, the person telling you this is more important than you at the moment. Go whine about how you couldn’t be a knight in shining armor elsewhere, christ…
Hm. Sorry, that may have got a bit away from me.
I understand the slip-ups since Joyce only recently found out, but does anyone else treat themselves so poorly because they messed up a name or pronoun?
I know she shouldn’t worry about dead naming, or using the wrong pronoun as long as she is trying to change, but I also consistently beat myself up every time I make a mistake like that. Anyone else?
I admit I screwed up just today because I didn’t know that Grant Morrison went by they/them pronouns.
If it makes you feel better, they’ve said they don’t mind he/him pronouns, though they prefer they/them.
Same for me. When my sister’s girlfriend transitioned I fucked up a few times at first, and then proceeded to mentally berate myself any time I so much as thought the wrong pronoun until I got it right consistently.
Your mind is a great place to practice someone’s pronouns, but you can do it without the berating. When people around me change pronouns, I practice referring to them by those pronouns in my head a lot to adjust. Depending on context, it might not be a person you talk about in the third person a lot, especially around them (like if you mainly interact one-on-one), but you can practice a bunch of times mentally. (Also, I don’t want to think of the person in a way that I know feels wrong to them; less in a “thought crime” way as much as “these thoughts affect other thoughts and views affect my actions and interactions.”)
I’ve been on both sides of the name/pronoun slip-ups, and when I do it, I do feel like shit (*especially* since it sucks when people mess up mine). But there’s a difference between feeling like shit and “apologizing” in a way that puts the focus on the mistake-maker’s feelings instead of the person they’re apologizing to. (I’m not suggesting you do that, I’m just trying to clarify there’s a distinction between beating oneself up in one’s own head and verbally eviscerating oneself in front of the person.)
And even aside from that: if it’s an honest mistake, and you’re genuinely trying your best, then that’s all you can do. If you slip up on occasion, you’re human. If the people you’re slipping up about know that you’re sincere and you respect them, they aren’t going to hate you forever for a mistake. So you shouldn’t be overly cruel to yourself, either. If they care about you, they’d never want you to do that.
(Personal anecdote in case it helps: I can’t pass to save my life, so I’m misgendered 90% of the time at work. Weirdly enough, the coworker who handles slip-ups the best is also one who slips up fairly regularly. Like at least once a month. But she just quickly apologizes and corrects herself and moves on, and compared to how some other coworkers handle it, it comes as such a relief. I don’t get mad at her when she slips, because I know she’s a really kind person and she’s doing her best. I hope that helps at least a bit?)
In one of my periods of pronoun growth, I had a phase where I was often messing up pronouns, but in weird ways. Like, I might refer to someone by a pronoun that is neither the one associated with their assigned sex nor the one they use, or I might mess up cis people’s pronouns. I messed up my cisgender mom’s pronouns at one point. Eventually, my brain got more where I needed it to be.
I’ve known people who vehemently insist it’s deadnaming when someone makes a clarification along the lines of
“Elliot Page said that…”
“Sorry, who?”
“Oh – you’d have known him as Ellen Page – anyway, he said that…”
Need I say that everyone I’ve known who insistently made this argument did not have a deadname?
So, can anyone else put their foot in their mouth? Literally, I mean? It came up in conversation with someone that I’m able to do that and they acted like that was out of the ordinary
When I was a lot younger and at peak flexibility, I could easily put my foot up *to* my mouth. *In* my mouth, not so much, but my mouth is annoyingly small, lol
Yep! I have EDS though, so I’m not sure how average that is.
Haha right? I’m able to put both ankles behind my ears at the same time. “Unfortunately”, both me and my partner are asexual so it never occurred to either of us that I could have been making bank. :p
The funniest thing is that I ended up getting diagnosed after my doctor saw me do what I thought was a “normal stretch” (arms behind me and pull them up and back all the way— only way for me to stretch my upper back muscles at all) and she got squicked out because the human shoulder and elbow ARE NOT SUPPOSED to move that way.
And that’s the story of how I was referred to the EDS clinic and got a diagnosis as an older adult. Sure wish I had been diagnosed sooner cos the chronic pain from wearing my joints out doing things I didn’t know was harmful all my life kinda sucks! But what can ya do?
But seriously tho, TheKelliestKelly, if you have joint pain and at least 4/9 on the Beighton Scale, you have EDS or HSD.
Being able to reach your foot to your mouth isn’t something that the average person can usually do— especially if you haven’t trained to do so via ballet or gymnastics etc. It suggests that you have at least a couple hypermobile joints.
Hypermobility can be benign, but if you’re getting pain daily without an explanation like an injury etc, you might want to get checked out.
(Reminder to everyone that the normal amount of pain one should feel daily without an explanation like an injury etc is ZERO. If you are any number higher you should consult a doctor about your chronic pain. And yes, this includes headaches.)
Hypermobile here, I can bite my toes but I’m not in pain yet. Age 39. My almost 1-yo enjoys that we can stretch together.
I haven’t had a day with Zero pain this century. Especially in recent days because my hips are having fits.
Not the whole thing, it’s not like a hand.
I’m honestly not game enough to try on the off chance I pull something. So I’ll assume no.
Yes, I can do it.
I can get my feet to forearm’s length of my mouth – and I have unusually long forearms.
When I was little, I was able to do the lotus seat, but I could feel the cartilage in my knees twist. Now it’s mostly replaced by bone, and I can’t do it anymore.
I can touch my forehead with my heel, but I need to my hands to do it.
These days just bending over to trim my toenails and breathe at the same time is an anatomical impossibility.
I was running into that, but it turns out that, in the US, Medicare will pay for you to go to a foot doctor regularly to get your toenails trimmed. So instead I bend over for the exercise.
Joe will admit a lot of things, but paying attention in gender studies is not one of them.
Supportive boyfriend to the rescue!
But what about Joyce’s Other Sister?
Carla needs to be told about Jocelyn! She now has a second new sister!
I’m sure that’s coming. “Carla, my new sister is just like you!”
Carla: “How could ANYONE possibly be on my level?”
toes
Your mom is a toe!
Becky’s dad was.
Joyce’s boyfriend, Toeseph Tosenthal
Not that I don’t get why this would irk Joyce, but if Jocelyn is telling Becky, it also is probably practical to let Dina in on it, too, so it stands to reason she’d find out before Joyce.
That being said, she’s probably finding out before John, so you’ve got that going for you, Joyce.
She’s also probably missing that sometimes it’s easier to come out to people you’re less close to, too.
It’s can be easier to come out to people you are less close to. But it can hurt feeling like you are less trusted. But you shouldn’t someone else’s scary experience about you. But your feelings are valid and this new information requires thinking and adjusting. But- But- But-
Ha, everyone is doing great, supportive, respectful while also being human.
Hopefully they talk this out later.
And also, crucially, Becky and Dina were openly queer. Like, if you aren’t queer, you simply don’t understand the level of difference in discourse, between your queer friends, versus people who still exist purely within comphet social programming. There’s an inherent level of trust and comfort with other queer people, when it comes to specifically queer issues, and Joyce hasn’t come to any sort of way where she could intuit or understand this reality.
Kinda surprised this strip isn’t titled “mistaked.” That’s gotta be a new one.
I think Willis mistaked when he chose the title.
For years, we’ve all foolishly believed that Willis had “Butts Disease”, but now the truth comes out! He actually has a massive foot fetish that he’s barely been able to conceal.
From now on, DoA will start to focus on Sierra and her bare feet, as Joyce starts to imitate here. Soon, the whole cast will be walking around campus bare foot, and Willis be selling Slipshines of Joe sucking on Joyce’s toes at night!
(Personally, I better be wrong, because while butts can be sexy, feet gross me out)
That is an awfully specific scenario you got there, there something you like to share? May e about your fanfic consumption?
Foot-In-Mouth-Disease is a common complication with Butts Disease.
as someone who is also has some neurodivergent spice in their brain (though as of now I remain undiagnosed) I do think Joyce is correct in thinking she has to be performatively contrite to show she REALLY is sorry. Because neurodivergent people often get accused of being insincere or unfeeling when we don’t emote according to the social script, even if internally they’re really going through it or maybe they verbally said sorry but their face remained stoic.
But alas, if you perform too much you ALSO get accused of being insincere. Sorry Joyce, I know this is shit advice but try to perform while not performing too much.
I bet that internally Joyce has not even processed how she actually feels about Jocelyn’s coming out. I bet she’s fine with it, or will be fine with it in the end, but right now she’s not even properly thought about it, she’s still in the “there are the right words to say and faces to make so people don’t think I’m an asshole”
I have found that, specifically regarding misnaming or misgendering, people generally prefer if you are as quick about it as possible. Performing distress whenever you slip can make them feel like they’re stressful to be around. “So when he — when she went to the store, she found out…” or “So when he went to the store -+
– oops sorry, she — she found out that…”
At least if you’re fixing your own mistake. If they had to point it out to you then usually more “fuck I’m sorry” is desired. Generally, the longer it’s been since the slip up the more contrite you should be, hence why you don’t mention it if you’re correcting it from one word ago but say a quick sorry if it was a sentence ago.
thanks phone for putting a random + in and then not letting me scroll back to proofread that was real cool of you
In that sense it is exactly as if you used the wrong name for them. You correct yourself, done. Nobody cares except your status as a good brained name-rememberer went down by 0.1%, which, you know, is fair because your brain is indeed not cooperating.
The graceful way to deal with this particular mistake is to just correct and move on as quickly as possible!
Like any time you mess up someone’s name, might I add. The erroneous name being a deadname is of very little relevance in this situation.
Joe feet?
He must be really flexible, is all I can think…
Did Joe’s eyes and eyebrows accidentally switch places in the last panel?
i THINK that’s joe rolling his eyes at himself
Yeah that last panel is throwing me off too.
indicating stress-lines below the eyes – like crow’s feet
To quote CeeLo Green on an American Dad episode
“He’s got lady-foot in his mouth….. that’s cool……”
I am glad she is talking that out with Joe, Jocelyne should not have to deal with other people’s anxiety about this. I think it is okay to feel anxious about getting a trans person’s pronouns right (after you have known them under other pronouns for a long time) but I think you should just do your best with them, and if you feel the need to talk about your fear of making mistakes talk to someone else about it.
directed by Quentin Tarantino
That explains it.
The words of Arundhati Roy have never been more literally applied.
Joyce, it’s okay. We all mistake lots of times.
Joyce would do great on puritanical fandom tumblr/twitter/whatever else because she’s currently more concerned with appearing to do well than actually doing so.
I mean it’s an effort, and she’s improving fast, but that’s nonetheless a persistent issue.
Don’t worry so much, it’s bad for your skin.
Joe has some good advice here. Joyce is already doing good by accepting her sister for who she is after only just recently learning that the sibling she knew as “Josh” all her life is actually Jocelyne. She shouldn’t expect herself to be perfect immediately and never accidentally use the wrong name or pronouns.
“Joe’s pretty on the ball”, to quote Joyce from (our) years ago.
feets disease. ~<3
Yes, Joyce is kinda making Jocelyne s decision to be to herself. But unconsciously she has been despise a lot of times. Anyone would freak out like her, to make sure twice you didn’t mistake anything.
So, I read comics “carefully”, by which I mean I do my utmost to read them in the order they are supposed to be on the page, frame by frame. The artist/author has a story to tell, and a visual representation in mind for the telling and I choose to follow along with what they have put on the page. I don’t read the payoff frame before I read the actual content/joke, whatever. For DoA I read Willis’ mouseover first. Then, as I read through the storyboard, I figure out the reference.
So, when O read today’s, I could not help but notice at first glance that it was Joyce and probably Joe (at the time, I didn’t happen to see Joe.)
Anyhoo, first thing I read is “feeeeeeeeeeet”, only mentally I read it as “fweeeeeeeet”, like a whistle, so I figure that Joyce got all upset and her brain ‘relieved pressure’ …. you know, “fweeeeet”. 🙂
But a reference to sucking on toe’s as part of Joe’s ‘game’ with the numbered chicks? Yeah, I can see that.
Now I remember ToeDad and have to admit, I’m curious about Willis’ obvious toe fetish…
However, in Joyce’s case, it’s not performative or intentionally making it about herself. She has some serious issues. Obviously Jocelyne is fully in the right to not tell Joyce first, just that Joyce’s shiz is coming from a different place. Not, “Look at me I’m so good,” but, “I need to be perfect because I still have religious trauma where not being perfect = I’m evil”
Seriously, Joyce needs some serious psychiatric help
It’s going to be interesting to see how Joyce reacts if Jocelyn is a liberal Christian versus atheist and doesn’t share her “all or nothing” approach ala Becky.
This just implies that Joe learned this before taking gender studies class. How much of the class does he already know?
Everyone knows that feet play an important role. It’s where you attach a webcam so you can upload the event later. Just ask Danny.
Joyce looks like an adorable supervillain with her mittens.
“I just want to wrap the world in my arms and CRUSH IT!”
There was this one villain in Kim Possible, DNAmy whose shtick was genetic manipulation and creating huggable hybrid creatures