*Dorothy and Joyce show up at Joe’s room*
Dorothy in a very flat voice: “Joe. Joyce would like me to inform you that she consents to have oral and vaginal sex with you in either missionary or cowgirl, with other positions to follow on a case by case basis.”
Joe, afraid: “But… what if she changes her mind.”
Joyce: “I won’t -”
*Dorothy holds up her hand.*
Dorothy, professional: “I will, of course, remain with my client. Should she wish to withdraw any portion of her consent, she will run that request through me.”
*Joyce nods enthusiastically*
For the other readers who may not know it, this is an actual Hollywood job, which is quite important for making sure the actors feel respected in the morning despite the pressures of auteur directors and their careers all being incredibly precarious. The best, hottest movies all have them now.
Also superior to screwed tables. Really the only tables superior to pegged are joined tables. Which should be obvious given that being joined – now – beats having been nailed, screwed, or pegged.
I had a friend who sat on the glass panel in a coffee table and it broke under her. Despite our initial horror, she was not cut or otherwise injured, other than her dignity. Lucked out that time.
Y’know, given their size disparity, I think consent wouldn’t be the only obstacle…solving the purely logistical challenges of lining them up in the right configurations would be far from trivial…
I think at this stage in her life Dorothy would, she’s been kinda going through a crisis of self and doing things she would generally consider immoral, including snatching her man back up as soon as he’s back on the market and kinda treating him like a sex object. Joyce… would struggle a lot more, I think, but she has also been… rejecting previous ideas of morality in ways that end up being harmful not just to others but to herself as well. So I don’t think it’s impossible for that kind of passionate mistake to occur.
And just think about the juicy, juicy DRAMA!!! I don’t think Joyce and Dotty should end up together, but if they hooked up and it led to ALL of their relationships absolutely collapsing?? Walky leaving Dorothy feels like a when rather than an if, he needs a good enough reason but it’s obviously telegraphed as a key future moment for his character arc…. I think Joe would honestly try his best to forgive, but Joyce wouldn’t be able to forgive *herself*… and god, BECKY. Poor Becky…
Do it anyway. I always say: you have to go on creating bad stuff until you notice that it’s becoming rather good. Otherwise you don’t get to the good stuff.
I love their dynamic, but I do not love how this is kind of putting Dorothy in a space she’s really trying to not be in, since even if Joyce is inviting it, it’s still making a friend a project.
Agreed. Like I know with Joyce and the glasses and her birth control, she seemed to be getting to a point where she didn’t want people telling her what to do. Which, hey! That’s her right, take agency! But then we have situations like this, where Joyce is approaching Dorothy about a situation that should really involve Joe. Joyce and Dorothy are great friends, but I think in cases like this it starts to lean on the side of being a bit… unhealthy for them.
Exactly, glasses and pills are one thing, but for Joyce to already take this confidence to these levels… hey Brown, calm down.
Furthermore, Dorothy is aware that this issue is between Joyce and Joe.
“she seemed to be getting to a point where she didn’t want people telling her what to do”
she wasn’t getting to that point, she WAS at that point, she directly told Dorothy to fuck off and stop trying to mother her and Dorothy ignored that and plowed right ahead in inserting her (explicitly unwanted) help.
But see, you have Joyce saying “I don’t want your help” only to come to Dorothy literally only days later to say “okay I want your help deciding how my boyfriend should fuck me”. I can completely understand why Dorothy would feel some mixed messages there. That’s part of where their situation is becoming a little unhealthy.
I feel one leads to the other — Dorothy pushing through Joyce’s “don’t want your help” and it turning out not terrible could easily have had the effect of Joyce having a major setback in her desire to self-determination — as shown in this comic, where she’s back to asking Dorothy about things instead of just taking a leap of faith.
I think it’s perfectly normal and healthy to say “I would like your help when I ask for it, not in situations where I’ve told you that it’s unwanted or in which I feel infantilized.” Joyce and Dorothy are navigating the boundaries in their relationship, and they seem to be mostly doing well as a result. I’m relieved about it honestly, because the Joyce-vs-condescending-advice arc was an exhausting read.
Now whether it’s normal to ask your best friend for THIS? Well, maybe it’s normal for Joyce lol
Honestly, I feel like it’s more normal to get a group of people talking about it than just one-on-one … though to be fair I went to a boarding school for high school and late night all-girls conversations were pretty common. I don’t think we had as many conversations like that in college. (Oddly, in high school I was considered a prude and in college I was considered over-sexed. I did not change.)
“only days later”? my sibling in Christ, it’s been several weeks if not months since Joyce was forced to fill out her birth control prescription even though she explicitly said she did not want help doing that.
She’s made peace with it, probably because she values Dorothy’s friendship more than she values enforcing her boundaries. Joyce has let it go, but that doesn’t make Dorothy’s actions right.
You know that in-comic, it’s only been like two weeks, maybe three tops since the new semester has started, right? I’d say it’s been maybe a week, a week and a half (which is, indeed, several days worth of time), but definitely not MONTHS.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/nonevent/ This is the strip where Joyce picks up her prescription. It is 8 chapters/books/storylines whatever you wanna call it before this current storyline. Each storyline tends to cover about, a day? Maybe two at the most? So unless there is a stated time skip, I’d say it has been 8 days. Maybe 9 days.
Ergo, my sibling in Christ, it has indeed been days.
Also, making peace with breaking down your own boundaries isn’t exactly the definition of HEALTHY, hence my continued point that this thing with Dorothy and Joyce isn’t HEALTHY but you know. Fuck me I guess.
I have a sneaking suspicion that we’re seeing bits of Carol in Joyce.
There’s this unspoken assumption that Joe will go along with whatever she wants. With drinking, with sex, with even defending her decisions to Becky.
Joe isn’t involved here, not because this is Joyce deciding what she feels comfortable with and when; Joe isn’t involved here because whatever she decides, he’s *going* to be doing it, because he’s her boyfriend, and that’s his job. And he *will* be thrilled to do it.
Joyce might be past the church in regards to faith, but every family dynamic and relationship she’s seen is still within that bubble. People outside the church only see one extreme of the spectrum – the “Wives, submit to your husbands” bit, where they see men as controlling abusers. The lesser known flipside, is the “Husbands, love your wives,” which talks about a self-sacrificial love that gives up *everything* for the wife, up to and including your life. Joyce has already talked about this at least once in the last decade of strips. The expectation that the gentleman will open doors, pull out chairs, pay for everything, spoil her with gifts, support her in every decision, defend her in all circumstances, and eventually work extra hard to support the both of them so she can stay in the home raising the kids.
Hell, Hank and Carol are split because Hank wouldn’t back Carol, and she didn’t even check with him first before she expected him to be there. We become our parents, in all ways except the ways that we realize we passionately should not, and Joyce is only a few months liberated.
In this case though, there are other things going on. There might be echoes of that fundie attitude here, but we’re talking about sex, so there’s first the baseline assumption that the guy is going to be more willing to do sex stuff and the woman will have to slow that down if she wants to. Even more though, in their particular case, she’s the sheltered virgin who has to figure out what she’s ready for while he’s known to have plenty of experience.
It’s not really surprising she thinks he’ll be up for everything she’s ready for as soon as she’s willing.
Agreed, and if it was just the sex stuff, I’d assume that.
But things started smelling a little funny ever since Becky cornered Joyce about how she was hurt that Joyce didn’t include her on the first bar outing, and confronted by that, she shoved Joe ahead saying something like, “Here, you handle this, it’s your job.”
And then when talking with her friends, she just says loudly to everyone that Joe *will* be doing “sex stuff” to her very soon. And while the assumption of sex could be filed under “he’s the experienced partner,” the assumption that Joe is OK with her talking in depth about their intimacy is ALSO stepping on him.
Then there’s the entire assumption about drinking, where Joe literally tries to ask for them to do something else – anything else – and she tells him no, and then he feels he has to pretend to drink and be the one nondrinker at a college party, because she’s shut down his voice. And then she gets angry later at him because he didn’t do what she had decided he would do, and the fight is resolved by him agreeing to do the thing he didn’t want to do.
A relationship should be a partnership of equals, and that’s not what it is here. If the roles were reversed, this would be misogyny. And this is more than just “Oh, she’s undiagnosed autistic.” That may be why she’s not noticing it in the moment right now, but the underlying assumptions weren’t put there by autism. These are internalized assumptions on gender roles within a relationship.
As many have said in many ways, you can take the person out of the church / cult, but it’s slow going taking the church / cult out of the person.
I think “I want Joe to do this stuff to me” is a remnant from Joyce’s conservative upbringing. Gonna take some deliberate effort to get from “to me” to “with me.”
At some point we have to remember that they’re all around 18 years old here, and 18-year-olds are really, really dumb. Doing shit that’s unhealthy for them is just de rigeur.
Gotta admit, I was quite the dumb at age 18. Hell, I think I got over the dumb around age 30. And tbh I ain’t too sure I’m really completely over the dumb. Still got me some of that adult-impostering syndrome stuff going on every now and then.
Not sure I agree that Dorothy really doesn’t want to be in this position, because it’s… Complicated. Dorothy understands Joyce on a level practically nobody else does, and she has on several occasions initiated “project” situations, so at least to some degree, she does like helping Joyce becoming the best version of Joyce that she can be.
I am kind of interested in the point where Joyce realizes that Joe has to consent to stuff to. Not that she’s a secret monster or anything, but I suspect her particular brand of religion went with the ‘boys ALWAYS want to have sex and it is on the girls to say no’. I think Joyce consciously realising that things are more complicated and that Joe has his own hang-ups around sex will be interesting.
Especially since Joyce’s very organized approach could easily feed into his current self-image as some sort of toxic penis lure for good girls.
It definitely will be interesting.
And it’s not just the ‘boys ALWAYS want to have sex and it is on the girls to say no’ part, but Joe’s reputation and past as a horn dog. Of course he’ll consent. Why would she think otherwise?
I’m quite worried that when Joe and Joyce finally talk to each other about this, Joe is going to say he’s not ready and Joyce will take that as “He’ll sleep with anyone, but not me,” and it’ll tank her self-esteem.
Hmmmmmm welllll ok you got a point. Dots didn’t exactly leave a lot of space for Joyce to say no to the laundry thing, just imperatively told her it was time for a lesson in public masturbation. Aaaand while we’re at it, Joyce basically emotionally blackmailed her into coming along for the drinking thing… It doesn’t really count as saying yes if you preclude conditions for saying no. man this is killin the mood
Joyce had a ton of room to say no, don’t be ridiculous. And Joyce didn’t blackmail diddly squat out of Dorothy. There are plenty of ways to say “no” without answering a literal binary yes/no question, and you know that.
Dorothy is not comfortable not being in control of situations or showing vulnerability — she is kind of struggling to say “yes” and Joyce does help her with that.
I’ve missed this dynamic so much, I’ve been yearning for more of it ever since the Billie and Ruth break up (even if their relationship did improve before the timeskip)
Dorothy and Joyce both have issues with acceptance of a lack of control.
Joyce has trouble accepting her urges and desires and wishes are human and normal and wants to smother them. Dorothy has trouble accepting powerlessness in life and keeps pushing herself to control more factors.
When she says “let each other say yes” they’re talking about surrendering power to things they want to do but are scared.
“I give you permission to say ‘yes’ to wanting sex and requesting it when you want.”
“And I give you permission to say ‘yes’ to relaxing and stopping trying to control everything.”
“Permission” is a weird way to describe it. It’s not so much permission as it is learning healthier habits. Joyce has to unlearn immense shame and embarrassment, and Dorothy has to unlearn her staggering expectations of herself.
Dorothy admitting she was human to Joyce while they were drunk was a huge, difficult thing for her. Joyce undressing with Joe was a huge, difficult thing for her. They will continue to slam headfirst into friction trying to unlearn habits.
This arc is literally about Joyce taking ownership of her sexuality. IDK how to tell you this but “not knowing she’s into girls” isn’t the same as playing it off as a phase.
Because two girls at college might be bi? Maybe guys should learn not to view all women as a single entity without individuation. Sounds like a them problem.
Real talk, though–I left fundamentalism over 6 years ago, and had mentally checked out a few years before that. That’s like a decade ago. I’ve been sexually active for most of that time, and I still catch myself (as someone raised AFAB in evangelicalism) thinking sex is something done “to” me, not “with” me. I want to note that both my partners in this time span have been wonderful people, it’s just that the conditioning since birth can be really hard to unravel.
Dorothy is completely right in pointing out the phrasing/way of thinking is messed up. But yeah, it can take a while to unpack and replace with healthier ways of thinking. I don’t know how long it takes yet, because I’m still not completely over it. …Idk what the point of this comment was. Just… yeah, Joyce, that’s rough.
Never was a Fundamentalist, but attitudes from our culture when I was young are awfully hard to shake off. Even against stuff I know is true. I have hang-ups to this day based upon stuff I know doesn’t matter. Thankfully there is no God involved or I’d be baked.
I think Jamie’s talking about stuff like…
Person A: I’m okay with you choking me a bit. My safeword is pineapple.
Person B: *I’M* not okay with that. I don’t want that power over you.
A better way to put it though might be ‘consent has two parts, even if one person is an active participant and the other person is passive’.
I’m put in mind of a piece of Frozen Rule 34 that had Anna having sex with Kristoff… And Elsa was in bed with them, reading a book while holding Anna’s hand (fully clothed, BTW).
I asked her with my eyes to ask again yes and then she asked me would yes to let her say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around her yes and drew her down to me so she could feel my breasts all perfume yes and her heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes
Dorothy’s right though. At some point, Joyce is gonna need to go over this list with Joe. The exact manner in which the conversation takes place will vary from couple to couple, but it’s VERY important that the other person be informed of what you would like to do with/to them, and if they are comfortable/happy to do those things. Otherwise (and this is speaking from the PoV of someone who is part of the BDSM community), you are potentially setting both of you up for some very harsh words and hurt feelings. Or worse, if one or more of those things is something that one person cannot live without, it could end the relationship, and oftentimes it’s best that people find out sooner rather than later before bonds get too deep.
Possibly, but it’s a big ask for a college couple exploring their first real relationship (and for one, their first sex), to do all that work up front. Especially when they probably don’t know a lot of it.
Can’t they explore together to find out what they actually want?
I DID say that the exact manner that would take place would vary from couple to couple. 😉 For some people, it’s just snuggling on a couch and going with the flow. (The problem here is that Joyce is too clueless about it all and would just freeze up, and for his part Joe is afraid to take the lead because he doesn’t want to inadvertently trample Joyce’s boundaries that she doesn’t even know herself.) For others, it might be a whole “sit down at a table with a contract” a la Fifty Shades-style. But regardless of how it’s done, it SHOULD be done.
Given the physics involved in both a kneejob and pegging, I think a few of those things might need to be done TO joe. But. Baby steps.
Also at this point I feel a bit like I should be offering the Dorothy/Joyce shippers a fruit basket or a sympathetic shoulder or something. I feel like “euphemism for that time you taught me how to masturbate used as a touchstone for our closeness” is a new bar of some kind or another.
starting to think joyce might actually need to spend some time learning how to talk about sex with… whoever teaches adults that before she moves on to talking to joe about this
Agreed; Christian sex education leaves a lot to be desired and coming out of purity culture is rough. I would love to be able to give advice and a hug to Joyce right now.
Joyce now has this huge list with a lot of stuff she likely would never have thought of. It’s gotta be somewhat overwhelming. No wonder she wants help!
My advice: pick three and put the master list away. (For later?)
This is literally a part of religious sexual shame i am 100% familiar with.
If something is done *to me*, then i can’t be guilty for *doing it*. If i happen to like it, wellll….. IT WASN’T MY FAULT, THE OTHER PERSON INITIATED IT
It’s a bad way to do sex (unless it’s specifically negotiated and/or you take turns taking charge), but it follows a sexual shame logic.
I feel like this is going to end up with “Hey Joe, I would like to do sex stuff with Dorothy please.” Somewhat soon… which for Willis can mean like, 2 years from now
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“are you making me a chaperone”
Is that what we’re calling it now?
*Dorothy and Joyce show up at Joe’s room*
Dorothy in a very flat voice: “Joe. Joyce would like me to inform you that she consents to have oral and vaginal sex with you in either missionary or cowgirl, with other positions to follow on a case by case basis.”
Joe, afraid: “But… what if she changes her mind.”
Joyce: “I won’t -”
*Dorothy holds up her hand.*
Dorothy, professional: “I will, of course, remain with my client. Should she wish to withdraw any portion of her consent, she will run that request through me.”
*Joyce nods enthusiastically*
But what is on Dorothy’s business card here? Coitus Consultant? Lay Lawyer? Solicitor specializing in smashing?
Agent of Amor.
Amatory Assistant
Boinkage barrister
Member of the Bonetown Bar
Coitus Interruptant?
Solicitation Solicitor
Railing Representative
Orgasm Ombudsperson
Intercourse Intermediary
Consent Counsel
Intimacy Coordinator
For the other readers who may not know it, this is an actual Hollywood job, which is quite important for making sure the actors feel respected in the morning despite the pressures of auteur directors and their careers all being incredibly precarious. The best, hottest movies all have them now.
By the way, this list is fantastic!
I am just so proud of the wonderful list my comment spawned. **joyful tears in eyes**
Attorney at Smex.
Delight Attendant
intimacy coordinator
Not originally exactly one of the fanfic dialogues that I’ve imagined, but it is now. 😀
this is the true punishment of being Mom Friend
“we got you this comfy chair just for you while Joe and I bang!”
definitely want to be asking if pegging is on or off the table
Or on the bed, or against the wall, or on the laundry machine, or
That last one’s a given.
Pegged tables are superior to nailed tables.
Also superior to screwed tables. Really the only tables superior to pegged are joined tables. Which should be obvious given that being joined – now – beats having been nailed, screwed, or pegged.
You can be all four and that’s much better
Be all four while ON all fours
They start out on the table and let things work from there.
As long as they are not glass tables
I had a friend who sat on the glass panel in a coffee table and it broke under her. Despite our initial horror, she was not cut or otherwise injured, other than her dignity. Lucked out that time.
Y’know, given their size disparity, I think consent wouldn’t be the only obstacle…solving the purely logistical challenges of lining them up in the right configurations would be far from trivial…
Gay :3
me, innocently: it doesn’t get any gayer than this
Found the name of their pornagraphique.
I’m starting to wonder if we’re gonna get one with Joyce and Dorothy before Joyce and Joe. And how that might effect… well, basically everything.
I don’t think Joyce would ever cheat on Joe nor Dorothy on Walky. They are better than that.
Also, what name Sirksome?
I think at this stage in her life Dorothy would, she’s been kinda going through a crisis of self and doing things she would generally consider immoral, including snatching her man back up as soon as he’s back on the market and kinda treating him like a sex object. Joyce… would struggle a lot more, I think, but she has also been… rejecting previous ideas of morality in ways that end up being harmful not just to others but to herself as well. So I don’t think it’s impossible for that kind of passionate mistake to occur.
And just think about the juicy, juicy DRAMA!!! I don’t think Joyce and Dotty should end up together, but if they hooked up and it led to ALL of their relationships absolutely collapsing?? Walky leaving Dorothy feels like a when rather than an if, he needs a good enough reason but it’s obviously telegraphed as a key future moment for his character arc…. I think Joe would honestly try his best to forgive, but Joyce wouldn’t be able to forgive *herself*… and god, BECKY. Poor Becky…
“Let each other say yes.” Also Walky and Joe might be more okay with it if they’re there too.
The Joyce/Joe, or the Joyce/Dorothy pornographique?
If I could draw, I’d be drawing all kinds of fan art right now.
Since when has that stopped anybody?
Unfortunately, having been stopped, those that did stop did not leave a record of what they did not do.
Sheesh, if that ain’t the perfect epitaph for my fanfic-non-writing output.
Do it anyway. I always say: you have to go on creating bad stuff until you notice that it’s becoming rather good. Otherwise you don’t get to the good stuff.
Point.
love the lighting in the first three panels ^^
also this is so damn gay, i love <3
That is very nice lighting.
also isnt it nice how joyce steps in front of that light in the last panel 😮
I like the way the lighting is progressing. Very natural.
Dorothy’s going to have to watch and give tips, huh?
But who’s receiving the tip, Joyce or Joe
Depending on whether it’s pegging on the table.
Certainly the bed would be more comfortable?
Joyce and Joe gonna be giving each other much more than just the tip.
I love their dynamic, but I do not love how this is kind of putting Dorothy in a space she’s really trying to not be in, since even if Joyce is inviting it, it’s still making a friend a project.
Agreed. Like I know with Joyce and the glasses and her birth control, she seemed to be getting to a point where she didn’t want people telling her what to do. Which, hey! That’s her right, take agency! But then we have situations like this, where Joyce is approaching Dorothy about a situation that should really involve Joe. Joyce and Dorothy are great friends, but I think in cases like this it starts to lean on the side of being a bit… unhealthy for them.
Exactly, glasses and pills are one thing, but for Joyce to already take this confidence to these levels… hey Brown, calm down.
Furthermore, Dorothy is aware that this issue is between Joyce and Joe.
“she seemed to be getting to a point where she didn’t want people telling her what to do”
she wasn’t getting to that point, she WAS at that point, she directly told Dorothy to fuck off and stop trying to mother her and Dorothy ignored that and plowed right ahead in inserting her (explicitly unwanted) help.
But see, you have Joyce saying “I don’t want your help” only to come to Dorothy literally only days later to say “okay I want your help deciding how my boyfriend should fuck me”. I can completely understand why Dorothy would feel some mixed messages there. That’s part of where their situation is becoming a little unhealthy.
I feel one leads to the other — Dorothy pushing through Joyce’s “don’t want your help” and it turning out not terrible could easily have had the effect of Joyce having a major setback in her desire to self-determination — as shown in this comic, where she’s back to asking Dorothy about things instead of just taking a leap of faith.
I think it’s perfectly normal and healthy to say “I would like your help when I ask for it, not in situations where I’ve told you that it’s unwanted or in which I feel infantilized.” Joyce and Dorothy are navigating the boundaries in their relationship, and they seem to be mostly doing well as a result. I’m relieved about it honestly, because the Joyce-vs-condescending-advice arc was an exhausting read.
Now whether it’s normal to ask your best friend for THIS? Well, maybe it’s normal for Joyce lol
Honestly, I feel like it’s more normal to get a group of people talking about it than just one-on-one … though to be fair I went to a boarding school for high school and late night all-girls conversations were pretty common. I don’t think we had as many conversations like that in college. (Oddly, in high school I was considered a prude and in college I was considered over-sexed. I did not change.)
Yeah, it’s so weird for people to want something when they want it and not when they don’t.
Crazy talk.
“only days later”? my sibling in Christ, it’s been several weeks if not months since Joyce was forced to fill out her birth control prescription even though she explicitly said she did not want help doing that.
She’s made peace with it, probably because she values Dorothy’s friendship more than she values enforcing her boundaries. Joyce has let it go, but that doesn’t make Dorothy’s actions right.
You know that in-comic, it’s only been like two weeks, maybe three tops since the new semester has started, right? I’d say it’s been maybe a week, a week and a half (which is, indeed, several days worth of time), but definitely not MONTHS.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/nonevent/ This is the strip where Joyce picks up her prescription. It is 8 chapters/books/storylines whatever you wanna call it before this current storyline. Each storyline tends to cover about, a day? Maybe two at the most? So unless there is a stated time skip, I’d say it has been 8 days. Maybe 9 days.
Ergo, my sibling in Christ, it has indeed been days.
Also, making peace with breaking down your own boundaries isn’t exactly the definition of HEALTHY, hence my continued point that this thing with Dorothy and Joyce isn’t HEALTHY but you know. Fuck me I guess.
I have a sneaking suspicion that we’re seeing bits of Carol in Joyce.
There’s this unspoken assumption that Joe will go along with whatever she wants. With drinking, with sex, with even defending her decisions to Becky.
Joe isn’t involved here, not because this is Joyce deciding what she feels comfortable with and when; Joe isn’t involved here because whatever she decides, he’s *going* to be doing it, because he’s her boyfriend, and that’s his job. And he *will* be thrilled to do it.
Joyce might be past the church in regards to faith, but every family dynamic and relationship she’s seen is still within that bubble. People outside the church only see one extreme of the spectrum – the “Wives, submit to your husbands” bit, where they see men as controlling abusers. The lesser known flipside, is the “Husbands, love your wives,” which talks about a self-sacrificial love that gives up *everything* for the wife, up to and including your life. Joyce has already talked about this at least once in the last decade of strips. The expectation that the gentleman will open doors, pull out chairs, pay for everything, spoil her with gifts, support her in every decision, defend her in all circumstances, and eventually work extra hard to support the both of them so she can stay in the home raising the kids.
Hell, Hank and Carol are split because Hank wouldn’t back Carol, and she didn’t even check with him first before she expected him to be there. We become our parents, in all ways except the ways that we realize we passionately should not, and Joyce is only a few months liberated.
Good points. I’m somewhat worried about how Joyce is treating the relationship with Joe, too.
In this case though, there are other things going on. There might be echoes of that fundie attitude here, but we’re talking about sex, so there’s first the baseline assumption that the guy is going to be more willing to do sex stuff and the woman will have to slow that down if she wants to. Even more though, in their particular case, she’s the sheltered virgin who has to figure out what she’s ready for while he’s known to have plenty of experience.
It’s not really surprising she thinks he’ll be up for everything she’s ready for as soon as she’s willing.
Agreed, and if it was just the sex stuff, I’d assume that.
But things started smelling a little funny ever since Becky cornered Joyce about how she was hurt that Joyce didn’t include her on the first bar outing, and confronted by that, she shoved Joe ahead saying something like, “Here, you handle this, it’s your job.”
And then when talking with her friends, she just says loudly to everyone that Joe *will* be doing “sex stuff” to her very soon. And while the assumption of sex could be filed under “he’s the experienced partner,” the assumption that Joe is OK with her talking in depth about their intimacy is ALSO stepping on him.
Then there’s the entire assumption about drinking, where Joe literally tries to ask for them to do something else – anything else – and she tells him no, and then he feels he has to pretend to drink and be the one nondrinker at a college party, because she’s shut down his voice. And then she gets angry later at him because he didn’t do what she had decided he would do, and the fight is resolved by him agreeing to do the thing he didn’t want to do.
A relationship should be a partnership of equals, and that’s not what it is here. If the roles were reversed, this would be misogyny. And this is more than just “Oh, she’s undiagnosed autistic.” That may be why she’s not noticing it in the moment right now, but the underlying assumptions weren’t put there by autism. These are internalized assumptions on gender roles within a relationship.
Good distinction between how autism may affect unexamined assumptions, versus what the content of those assumptions are.
As many have said in many ways, you can take the person out of the church / cult, but it’s slow going taking the church / cult out of the person.
I think “I want Joe to do this stuff to me” is a remnant from Joyce’s conservative upbringing. Gonna take some deliberate effort to get from “to me” to “with me.”
At some point we have to remember that they’re all around 18 years old here, and 18-year-olds are really, really dumb. Doing shit that’s unhealthy for them is just de rigeur.
I was a very boring 18 year old. The most ‘unhealthy’ thing I ever did was drink too much soda and not get enough sleep.
As a college freshman who turned 19 before a semester passed,I remember Dorothy specifically is 19 now.
And “effing horny”, as we learned in the same strip.
Must we?
Gotta admit, I was quite the dumb at age 18. Hell, I think I got over the dumb around age 30. And tbh I ain’t too sure I’m really completely over the dumb. Still got me some of that adult-impostering syndrome stuff going on every now and then.
Not sure I agree that Dorothy really doesn’t want to be in this position, because it’s… Complicated. Dorothy understands Joyce on a level practically nobody else does, and she has on several occasions initiated “project” situations, so at least to some degree, she does like helping Joyce becoming the best version of Joyce that she can be.
I think Joyce is one strong reason why Dorothy turned down the Yale opportunity. Be that reason a mixture of strong friendship and sapphic attraction.
I am kind of interested in the point where Joyce realizes that Joe has to consent to stuff to. Not that she’s a secret monster or anything, but I suspect her particular brand of religion went with the ‘boys ALWAYS want to have sex and it is on the girls to say no’. I think Joyce consciously realising that things are more complicated and that Joe has his own hang-ups around sex will be interesting.
Especially since Joyce’s very organized approach could easily feed into his current self-image as some sort of toxic penis lure for good girls.
It definitely will be interesting.
And it’s not just the ‘boys ALWAYS want to have sex and it is on the girls to say no’ part, but Joe’s reputation and past as a horn dog. Of course he’ll consent. Why would she think otherwise?
I’m quite worried that when Joe and Joyce finally talk to each other about this, Joe is going to say he’s not ready and Joyce will take that as “He’ll sleep with anyone, but not me,” and it’ll tank her self-esteem.
Not sure I agree, Dorothy hasn’t learned to ask first, so I wouldn’t call that “let each other say yes”.
Hmmmmmm welllll ok you got a point. Dots didn’t exactly leave a lot of space for Joyce to say no to the laundry thing, just imperatively told her it was time for a lesson in public masturbation. Aaaand while we’re at it, Joyce basically emotionally blackmailed her into coming along for the drinking thing… It doesn’t really count as saying yes if you preclude conditions for saying no. man this is killin the mood
Joyce had a ton of room to say no, don’t be ridiculous. And Joyce didn’t blackmail diddly squat out of Dorothy. There are plenty of ways to say “no” without answering a literal binary yes/no question, and you know that.
Ok we can say Dotty was being more strident and obnoxious than literally noncon about the laundry room but
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/03-trystin-in-the-wind/acollege/
Maybe your take on this scene was different from mine, felt pretty bad to me…
Mischief and shenanigans, and nobody got hurt.
Online comic strip mischief and shenanigans, to be specific.
Dorothy is not comfortable not being in control of situations or showing vulnerability — she is kind of struggling to say “yes” and Joyce does help her with that.
Oh god Joyce is going to ask her to sex Joe first so she can observe and take notes, isn’t she.
My money is on Dotty holding Joyce’s hand while Joe does things to her.
Some fanfic of just this been going on for months now. 😀
“We’ve learned how to LET each other say yes”
Why does it feel like alarm bells are blaring? Something about that statement makes me go, “NNNNNNOPE”
this is the real toxic college lesbian situationship they warn you about in television
I’ve missed this dynamic so much, I’ve been yearning for more of it ever since the Billie and Ruth break up (even if their relationship did improve before the timeskip)
What could the problem possibly be?
Codependency?
That’s probably the gut reaction a lot of people are having. Which, yeah, it’s not entirely wrong.
Bit dramatic, innit.
This comment section? Being overdramatic about characters having imperfect interactions and personalities? Pfft, surely you jest.
Flashing back the “THEY’RE CODEPENDENT!” scene from Rick and Morty…
Joyce has become too confident and if that continues in the long term… yep, it won’t be rewarding at all.
I’m honestly still trying to untangle what the hell that line even means
Dorothy and Joyce both have issues with acceptance of a lack of control.
Joyce has trouble accepting her urges and desires and wishes are human and normal and wants to smother them. Dorothy has trouble accepting powerlessness in life and keeps pushing herself to control more factors.
When she says “let each other say yes” they’re talking about surrendering power to things they want to do but are scared.
So this?
“I give you permission to say ‘yes’ to wanting sex and requesting it when you want.”
“And I give you permission to say ‘yes’ to relaxing and stopping trying to control everything.”
“Permission” is a weird way to describe it. It’s not so much permission as it is learning healthier habits. Joyce has to unlearn immense shame and embarrassment, and Dorothy has to unlearn her staggering expectations of herself.
Dorothy admitting she was human to Joyce while they were drunk was a huge, difficult thing for her. Joyce undressing with Joe was a huge, difficult thing for her. They will continue to slam headfirst into friction trying to unlearn habits.
This is why so many guys believe in the “college girls are all bi” myth.
Joyce strikes me as the ultimate LUG, though. So does Jennifer, now I come to think of it.
…because, like in the current strip, Joyce doesn’t take ownership of her sexuality. Much like Jennifer with her “It was just a phase” attitude.
This arc is literally about Joyce taking ownership of her sexuality. IDK how to tell you this but “not knowing she’s into girls” isn’t the same as playing it off as a phase.
Because two girls at college might be bi? Maybe guys should learn not to view all women as a single entity without individuation. Sounds like a them problem.
That doesn’t really answer the question.
did joe say he was taking joyce out on a date tonight, or just in general?? i couldn’t super tell. if it’s tonight we gotta unpack with SPEED
Joyce wants to unpack Joe with speed, if you get my drift.
EYYYY
Such a smashing joke!
Real talk, though–I left fundamentalism over 6 years ago, and had mentally checked out a few years before that. That’s like a decade ago. I’ve been sexually active for most of that time, and I still catch myself (as someone raised AFAB in evangelicalism) thinking sex is something done “to” me, not “with” me. I want to note that both my partners in this time span have been wonderful people, it’s just that the conditioning since birth can be really hard to unravel.
Dorothy is completely right in pointing out the phrasing/way of thinking is messed up. But yeah, it can take a while to unpack and replace with healthier ways of thinking. I don’t know how long it takes yet, because I’m still not completely over it. …Idk what the point of this comment was. Just… yeah, Joyce, that’s rough.
Cleaning out the fundieness from your mind can sure take a while.
Never was a Fundamentalist, but attitudes from our culture when I was young are awfully hard to shake off. Even against stuff I know is true. I have hang-ups to this day based upon stuff I know doesn’t matter. Thankfully there is no God involved or I’d be baked.
Can’t tell if healthy or not…
Sorry Fry, that’s humans for ya.
Joyce is taking things at her own speed, and we’re proud of her for that.
this is so romantic
wait
shit
how long is a while
I like the distinction of with vs to and I like that they give each other permission to say yes.
Very kinky of them 😛
Now I’m curious if “I don’t consent to you consenting” is a thing.
It is. Some people do not want power, even in a controlled situation.
I don’t see the connection between the two ideas.
I think Jamie’s talking about stuff like…
Person A: I’m okay with you choking me a bit. My safeword is pineapple.
Person B: *I’M* not okay with that. I don’t want that power over you.
A better way to put it though might be ‘consent has two parts, even if one person is an active participant and the other person is passive’.
Ah, that makes sense. I guess it also equals out to “You can’t say yes because I already said no.”
You were supposed to abandon conformism, not change your master
[Star Wars reference]
Joyce [to Dorothy]: When I left you, I was but the learner, but now I am the mistress.
This is some of the gayest and most recipe for bad decisions coded shit I’ve ever seen, I love it so fucking much
Hey did anyone else realize this dialogue is probably a reference to Anti-Joyce?
https://www.itswalky.com/comic/hey-walky/
Ehh?
oh my *God* just please date
Yes, it’s taking so long…
Haven’t they already been on two dates? (technically speaking, at least)
(which brings to mind lucy’s ‘third date’ nonsense…hmmm…)
That’s interesting
*takes a sip of my tea*
I’m put in mind of a piece of Frozen Rule 34 that had Anna having sex with Kristoff… And Elsa was in bed with them, reading a book while holding Anna’s hand (fully clothed, BTW).
That’s disgusting. Where?
Can I link it here?
https://rule34.xxx/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=1560807
It was very easy to find and it’s hilarious how much it represents whatever’s happening between these three
An interesting take on the primae noctis (possibly fictional) practice.
Anna’s *GLEE* face and Kristoff’s “I know I agreed to this but come on!” expression make that pic.
More smut should be funny like this.
Hate it.
Its nice not to be alone with that image
Dorothy: “I don’t remember agreeing to a mutual CNC relationship.”
They’re headed for the maker lab?
Me [giving slow applause]: Well done!
I asked her with my eyes to ask again yes and then she asked me would yes to let her say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around her yes and drew her down to me so she could feel my breasts all perfume yes and her heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes
I think that’s a different Joyce…
+1
Well. That’s … progress.
Is alt text telling us that some real sex will take more time to happen?
It’s taking Willis a lot of time to get that next Slipshine done. 🙂
Dorothy’s right though. At some point, Joyce is gonna need to go over this list with Joe. The exact manner in which the conversation takes place will vary from couple to couple, but it’s VERY important that the other person be informed of what you would like to do with/to them, and if they are comfortable/happy to do those things. Otherwise (and this is speaking from the PoV of someone who is part of the BDSM community), you are potentially setting both of you up for some very harsh words and hurt feelings. Or worse, if one or more of those things is something that one person cannot live without, it could end the relationship, and oftentimes it’s best that people find out sooner rather than later before bonds get too deep.
Possibly, but it’s a big ask for a college couple exploring their first real relationship (and for one, their first sex), to do all that work up front. Especially when they probably don’t know a lot of it.
Can’t they explore together to find out what they actually want?
They absolutely can and there’s nothing wrong with it. Some people in the comments are just high strung.
I DID say that the exact manner that would take place would vary from couple to couple. 😉 For some people, it’s just snuggling on a couch and going with the flow. (The problem here is that Joyce is too clueless about it all and would just freeze up, and for his part Joe is afraid to take the lead because he doesn’t want to inadvertently trample Joyce’s boundaries that she doesn’t even know herself.) For others, it might be a whole “sit down at a table with a contract” a la Fifty Shades-style. But regardless of how it’s done, it SHOULD be done.
And of course spontaneity will be first on the list!
Joyce, just now that sounded kinda… 😀
A problem with personal growth is that it’s like moving residences. Unpacking one’s baggage can take longer than the original packing did.
This might well end up with Joe chaperoning these two
Given the physics involved in both a kneejob and pegging, I think a few of those things might need to be done TO joe. But. Baby steps.
Also at this point I feel a bit like I should be offering the Dorothy/Joyce shippers a fruit basket or a sympathetic shoulder or something. I feel like “euphemism for that time you taught me how to masturbate used as a touchstone for our closeness” is a new bar of some kind or another.
In regards to the current poll. I believe that “what they’re doing right now” is more romantically gay, while the other thing is physically gay.
Is a cuck chair going to be needed here? Not just by Joe just like, in general
Maybe a closet and Superman costume instead?
Reported for Rick and Morty reference.
“You will not stop me and my references!”
He screams as he gets dragged away to Cringe Prison
But is Brimping on the list?
(shoutout to Starsky and Fraction)
starting to think joyce might actually need to spend some time learning how to talk about sex with… whoever teaches adults that before she moves on to talking to joe about this
Agreed; Christian sex education leaves a lot to be desired and coming out of purity culture is rough. I would love to be able to give advice and a hug to Joyce right now.
Joyce now has this huge list with a lot of stuff she likely would never have thought of. It’s gotta be somewhat overwhelming. No wonder she wants help!
My advice: pick three and put the master list away. (For later?)
as is expected, given my randomly assigned gravatar, I too prefer the sound of/implication of sex stuff being done to me rather than with me
This is literally a part of religious sexual shame i am 100% familiar with.
If something is done *to me*, then i can’t be guilty for *doing it*. If i happen to like it, wellll….. IT WASN’T MY FAULT, THE OTHER PERSON INITIATED IT
It’s a bad way to do sex (unless it’s specifically negotiated and/or you take turns taking charge), but it follows a sexual shame logic.
I feel like this is going to end up with “Hey Joe, I would like to do sex stuff with Dorothy please.” Somewhat soon… which for Willis can mean like, 2 years from now