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Honestly, maybe it’s better Joyce get in a practice run before she has to deal with Jocelyn.
I mean, this is 31 flavors of cringe, but if there’s one person who’s got the rock-solid confidence to not care it’s Carla. Let Joyce get all her well-intentioned insanity out and collect feedback from Dorothy and Sarah before she has to try this with someone she could hurt, y’know?
This is on the one hand true, but on the other hand people learn social scripts by doing (or watching others do). It is perennially one of the shitty things about being a minority that folks have less practice with or exposure to the correct social scripts for dealing with you, but it’s also often not malicious. It’s an unfair but broadly not wildly avoidable social reality that if there’s fewer people like you you’re gonna be more people’s first scriptless (or script minimal) learning experience. Joyce did TRY to get guidance on how to do this without making it Carla’s issue first, but it is. Unfortunate that she asked the one person who could mislead her in this particular way.
Sucks to be the practice trans, gay friend, romance partner, rebound, etc. Lots of situations which it sucks to be. But, really, without that practice, how else are most newbie people gonna learn?
yeah, as long as they also learn that the practice individual doesn’t owe them a damn thing and that they don’t get to be butthurt towards said practice individual over being told off.
Here’s the thing. If a practice individual tells someone off rather than instructs them, they’re being what anyone is when someone makes a mistake for the first time and they get eaten out for it.
That right there is the conundrum. How can a person learn to navigate through dating and sexuality, fail, and recover again, without practice? And without gaining scars from getting told off harshly?
There’s so little patience out there. Far too much anger, fear, and other dark side feels.
Yeah, but on the other hand, Jocelyn already loves her as a sister and always has. Plus, she’s known Joyce since Joyce was a baby and surely is used to her by now.
Oh right, I thought it was just Joyce declaring more of her lady friends are her sisters (besides Sarah) because she always wanted to have sisters instead of three brothers (and possibly she unconsciously senses something she likes about Jocelyne), while simultaneously not so subtly wanting to affirm Carla’s womanhood. Forgot all about Ethan’s well meaning meddling.
That’s one of the main purposes of first-year college time. (along with teen poetry, fanfic, and other creative writing). All the cringe for us to ruminate over until we die.
In either case, she’s trying.
But considering she’s trying with someone who’s a friend and not family, the experience is actually highlighting the “other” rather than the bond they share.
If it actually WAS Jocelyne, I think it’d be a lot more poingnant.
Here, I assume Carla is avoiding being someone else’s prop as a self-affirming moment of goodness.
Well, we are all the “children” of the first amino acids that ever swam in the primordial soup, so… technically, yes? Maybe? For some remote definition of family?
From the look on her face, I think on some level Joyce understands how weird she is making this.
… I think this is meant to be a lesson about what happens when you blindly follow directions from people you might assume posses innate moral authority on something?
This is entirely true, however — Joyce is autistic and poorly socialized, and was given advice by Ethan. She’s trying her best and if she was a real person and not a comic character she’d be mortified from embarrassment and not leave her room for a month.
To be fair I don’t think the problem here is blindly following Ethan’s advice. It was good advice, if it had been triggered by the right information. If my irl brother said those exact words to me, transmasc edition, it would be wholesome and touching and what I would love to hear. What makes this awkward is that 1) Carla is not Jocelyn/family and 2) Carla is in a position where on a familial level she can be out, so Ethan’s advice geared towards ‘show support in the face of at least one bigoted parent’ isn’t applicable.
TL;DR Joyce would have nailed this, if she’d told the right person. Ethan’s advice would have nailed it if he’d had all the facts but Joyce was correct in not potentially outing the trans person in question when seeking advice.
…so the problem is blindly following Ethan’s advice. Not because Ethan’s advice is bad, but because the context is wrong, and Joyce didn’t question it.
But why would she question the context?
Any context in which Ethan’s advice makes sense but isn’t generically applicable is just wildly unlikely. True, but kind of ridiculous that Ethan knows something about her actual family she doesn’t.
Yeah I was pretty much thinking the same thing, right peg for the wrong hole. But the overall principle holds, don’t blindly follow advice when your instincts are giving you alarm signals, even if they come from someone who seems like they deserve to be right. Ethan had perfect advice for a completely different relationship he was thinking about.
….what? They’ve interacted a ton. She did her makeup in the last arc and engineered her shower shoes (“CARLA IS GREAT AND I AM A BUG!”), at the very least.
Nymph, I always choose to believe that you are a sock-puppet of Taffy’s. I mean there is no evidence of this and a fair amount of internal evidence it’s extremely unlikely. But I choose to believe it anyway because it would be hilarious.
Whenever anyone you are not very familiar with calls you sibling or sister/brother, it is weird. I suppose it could be a cultural thing, but it isn’t anything that I am too familiar with. On the rare occasion it happens to me, IRL or online, it is weird every single time.
It also appears to me that they tend to use it to try and tone down whatever they are going to say next. In that case, a stranger using an overly familiar term does not tone down anything at all and feels very patronizing. I am not sure that is what Joyce is doing here though, for several reasons. First, she is going off of what Ethan told her for guidance. Secondly, she is using it at the end of the sentence, rather than starting it right off the bat. The cases I have seen it used to tone down what someone is saying, they start right off with it.
Eh, “sister”/”brother” is addressed to non-siblings a lot in labor unions, social and service organizations, churches and social movements. It’s used to express solidarity in a cause or profession.
In English it’s also used when “I love you” would be even weirder because of the ways that that word has been overloaded.
Compare this with the way, in some cultures, it’s normal and expected in some situations to address someone who is not one’s parent as “Mother” or “Father”, to convey respect.
I would agree that in this scene it is indeed a bit weird, but if Joyce had done a bit of work to establish context before plunging in I think it would have been quite appropriate. (Thing is: Carla would have detected the developing context and repelled it. [“I am a Rock” swells in background])
yeah, the turkish / kurdish communities in my city are also using “Bruder“ (brother) to adress any man they meet and have a positive connection to. My barber calls me “Bruder“ and as a trans guy, THIS GIVES ME SO MUCH EUPHORIA.
But that’s also because he does it to every man, not specifically to trans guys! It’s not an overemphasized support statement.
Does Carla know Joyce is an atheist now? Did she previously pay enough attention to know Joyce was religious? Because I could see it being taken as a “sister in Christ” thing, which I would also skate away from… would just add a layer of misunderstanding.
yeah. Learning is slow but she is constantly unlearning and learning, so i’m sure she’ll get there.
it just sucks for the people who are in the line of fire while she still gets things wrong on such a basic level…
Not everybody who transitions wants it to be a big deal or even discuss it. Personally I just want to be treated like a normal woman. Having somebody come up and be “special” at me for is not supportive, at least to me. Its like people who insistently they/them you without asking. I was at urgent care Friday and the doctor would not address me as she (or he thank fek) She had been told not using “they/them” pronouns with people who transtion was RUDE! I had a rather arch conversation between her, me and my birth certificate.
2. While not everybody who transitions wants it to be a big deal or even wants to discuss it, we’re talking about Carla and… honestly, who even knows with her?
3. I’m just going to say point 1 again because omg.
Doctor got the spirit (or maybe not even that, maybe just a PC training without inner desire to get it right), but is missing the most important point:
JUST ASK THE PERSON IN FRONT OF YOU ABOUT THEIR PRONOUNS.
And even if you *do* learn a fact about trans people as a whole: if a single individual comes to you and says “that does not apply to me personally“, then you BELIEVE him/her/them/…
The only thing i can speak for for the whole trans community is: We are not a monolith, we are individuals. ^^
The sheer majesty of her egocentrism is somehow appealing to me. She demands only respect, not service. She can be perceptive and giving. Carla is the good queen who protects and nurtures her subjects, not the evil queen who reduces them to utensils. It’s only off-putting because her monarchy is all in her mind.
I would very much love to have Carla and Jocelyne pass each other, and have one, mid-conversation, say “Heat from fire”, and the other, without looking up from whatever they are doing reply “Fire from heat”? and then they both just continue on with whatever they were doing without so much as an explanation.
yeah it really sucks. Like, what are we supposed to do? “Hey, I’m really glad you just ambushed me at work, where I’m clearly masking as much as I can, so as to avoid these conversations, but yeah sure let me tell you all about the most personal aspects of my core being, so that you can tell me how you have a family member, and give you the opportunity to feel good about yourself…”
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You know what, this could have gone worse.
who said “this” is necessarily over? 0-0
after all she JUST started chasin’ her XD
Yeah, give it time.
Honestly it’s too bad Carla isn’t black. Joyce probably would’ve said “Sistah” for the double whammy.
Or Joyce could’ve been the non-binary one, Carla cisgender and black, and Joyce could’ve said “Cistah” for the triple-whammy
fuckin killin me here brah XD
Take my imaginary upvote!
Joyce should have learned by now that you don’t appeal to Carla with genuine empathy.
The look in the fourth panel says it all
“My sister in—in Christ!”
” *skates faster* ”
“In science?!”
“Too late, you’ve already made it too weird!”
Sudden, situational, religious belief to avoid awkwardness. That must be like 80 percent of all politicians.
*LOL*
Only in America.
I mean, many other countries do that as well precisely because they’ve learned from USA’s bad example
We are a very educational bad example. Doing the right thing only after trying every other possible wrong thing.
No, Joyce, Jocelyn is your sister.
Honestly, maybe it’s better Joyce get in a practice run before she has to deal with Jocelyn.
I mean, this is 31 flavors of cringe, but if there’s one person who’s got the rock-solid confidence to not care it’s Carla. Let Joyce get all her well-intentioned insanity out and collect feedback from Dorothy and Sarah before she has to try this with someone she could hurt, y’know?
Mmmmayyybe…
I dunno. Kind of sucks to be anyone’s “practice trans”. Feels about as bad as being anyone’s “practice gay friend”.
I mean, Ethan was kind of her “practice gay friend” and she showed up real well for Becky
Joking aside, I do agree with you
This is on the one hand true, but on the other hand people learn social scripts by doing (or watching others do). It is perennially one of the shitty things about being a minority that folks have less practice with or exposure to the correct social scripts for dealing with you, but it’s also often not malicious. It’s an unfair but broadly not wildly avoidable social reality that if there’s fewer people like you you’re gonna be more people’s first scriptless (or script minimal) learning experience. Joyce did TRY to get guidance on how to do this without making it Carla’s issue first, but it is. Unfortunate that she asked the one person who could mislead her in this particular way.
Sucks to be the practice trans, gay friend, romance partner, rebound, etc. Lots of situations which it sucks to be. But, really, without that practice, how else are most newbie people gonna learn?
yeah, as long as they also learn that the practice individual doesn’t owe them a damn thing and that they don’t get to be butthurt towards said practice individual over being told off.
this this this this this this this
Here’s the thing. If a practice individual tells someone off rather than instructs them, they’re being what anyone is when someone makes a mistake for the first time and they get eaten out for it.
A fucking ass.
That right there is the conundrum. How can a person learn to navigate through dating and sexuality, fail, and recover again, without practice? And without gaining scars from getting told off harshly?
There’s so little patience out there. Far too much anger, fear, and other dark side feels.
…chewed out.
CHEWED.
Yeah, but on the other hand, Jocelyn already loves her as a sister and always has. Plus, she’s known Joyce since Joyce was a baby and surely is used to her by now.
Boffo?
Boffo, Lenny, socko. Let’s do lunch sometime! Don’t call me, I’ll call you!
Slang for ‘extremely good’ but like, as a noun it’s sort of a posh tot I think. In this case she’s basically saying “alright, fancypants”.
Chocko Socko is boffo!
Or if you need to open a door, offob si okcos okcohc!
Boffo deez nuts!
* cues up “Skateaway” by Dire Straits *
+1 for deep music knowledge.
lol
I forgot this little time bomb was ticking
Can I have an explanation?
Joyce just recently found out that Carla is “secret Trans girl” in the dorm.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-15/01-love-dares-you-to-change/expertise/ Ethan thought that Joyce’s sister Jocelyn had finally told Joyce that she is a trans woman, and Ethan assumed Joyce was grappling with that. Joyce discovered that Carla is trans and wants to not be a transphobic bigot weirdo so asked him for advice.
That explains it
Oh right, I thought it was just Joyce declaring more of her lady friends are her sisters (besides Sarah) because she always wanted to have sisters instead of three brothers (and possibly she unconsciously senses something she likes about Jocelyne), while simultaneously not so subtly wanting to affirm Carla’s womanhood. Forgot all about Ethan’s well meaning meddling.
Man Joyce is going to look back on this exact moment once Jocelyne comes out to her and be mortified
To clarify the sister part is what will mortify her, not the general supportive message
Meh. I said worse (similar) to my friends in high school.
This applies to basically anytime future Joyce look back at her first college year.
That’s one of the main purposes of first-year college time. (along with teen poetry, fanfic, and other creative writing). All the cringe for us to ruminate over until we die.
Sister? Since when? There some hidden Rutten love child conspiracy going on? They are billionaires so I wouldn’t write that off automatically.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-15/01-love-dares-you-to-change/expertise/
No I got the setup. I was trying to joke that Joyce and Carla would be blood related to justify her awkward flub.
IIRC, Carla’s natural hair color is blonde…
And she wears glasses…
Welp, Ethan would know. He’s the expert!
I’d say time travel must be involved, but then I say that about everything, don’t I?
Ethan ain’t even in this one, hover text.
You didn’t look at the secret tags.
There are secret tags?
Only truly worthy people can see them.
Awww. I’m not truly worthy.
(gonna go eat worms)
Someone helpfully linked to the Ethan description where he thinks Joyce is talking about her not yet out sister.
Oh no, not well-meaning attempts at support! Anything but that!
This is partly Ethan fault but let’s not kid ourselves tatt she would had been any less weird on her own.
In fact, Ethan said he wasn’t an expert on that topic, and yet Joyce decided to take what he said into account.
And the result?….well
I mean she’s got the spirit…
just the wrong one for this situation.
Tbf, alt text, Ethan doesn’t have a *lot* of things straight
He can’t even think straight… ;-D
nope, couldn’t keep a straight face XD
In either case, she’s trying.
But considering she’s trying with someone who’s a friend and not family, the experience is actually highlighting the “other” rather than the bond they share.
If it actually WAS Jocelyne, I think it’d be a lot more poingnant.
Here, I assume Carla is avoiding being someone else’s prop as a self-affirming moment of goodness.
You try going up to random people and telling them that they are and have always been your sister. Then report back on the reactions you get.
Trying her best to out-skate the awkward.
Clif, I just want you to know that you are and have always been my sister.
Well, we are all the “children” of the first amino acids that ever swam in the primordial soup, so… technically, yes? Maybe? For some remote definition of family?
Brothers and Sisters all! We are the children of Mitochondrial Eve!
Brothers and sisters and nonbinary siblings!
I really want a monosyllabic word (along the lines of Bro and Sis) for that. Non doesn’t seem quite right. Brethren, Sistren, and Nonren?
Uly – Too late. The will has already been probated.
I just tried it with my wife, but she just looked at me weird.
But then, she doesn’t own rollerskates.
Your wife!?
From the look on her face, I think on some level Joyce understands how weird she is making this.
… I think this is meant to be a lesson about what happens when you blindly follow directions from people you might assume posses innate moral authority on something?
This is entirely true, however — Joyce is autistic and poorly socialized, and was given advice by Ethan. She’s trying her best and if she was a real person and not a comic character she’d be mortified from embarrassment and not leave her room for a month.
girl gotta shove 18 years worth of social learning into less than 4.
thankfully as Willis once put it, “nothing prepares you for life better than being stupid over and over again” XD
In her way, Joyce has great emotional fortitude, she can shrug off humiliation pretty good and just plow forward enthusiastically.
To be fair I don’t think the problem here is blindly following Ethan’s advice. It was good advice, if it had been triggered by the right information. If my irl brother said those exact words to me, transmasc edition, it would be wholesome and touching and what I would love to hear. What makes this awkward is that 1) Carla is not Jocelyn/family and 2) Carla is in a position where on a familial level she can be out, so Ethan’s advice geared towards ‘show support in the face of at least one bigoted parent’ isn’t applicable.
TL;DR Joyce would have nailed this, if she’d told the right person. Ethan’s advice would have nailed it if he’d had all the facts but Joyce was correct in not potentially outing the trans person in question when seeking advice.
…so the problem is blindly following Ethan’s advice. Not because Ethan’s advice is bad, but because the context is wrong, and Joyce didn’t question it.
But why would she question the context?
Any context in which Ethan’s advice makes sense but isn’t generically applicable is just wildly unlikely. True, but kind of ridiculous that Ethan knows something about her actual family she doesn’t.
Yeah I was pretty much thinking the same thing, right peg for the wrong hole. But the overall principle holds, don’t blindly follow advice when your instincts are giving you alarm signals, even if they come from someone who seems like they deserve to be right. Ethan had perfect advice for a completely different relationship he was thinking about.
lmao
i love how in panel 3 shes like yes yes continue
“Live long… and prosper.”
I’m a DOCTOR, Jim!
There’s coffee in that nebula.
This is weird. Joyce and Carla have never once interacted before this strip.
….what? They’ve interacted a ton. She did her makeup in the last arc and engineered her shower shoes (“CARLA IS GREAT AND I AM A BUG!”), at the very least.
No.
Compelling point, well made.
Slight correction, to add supporting in-text citation:
No. (Hamlet 3.3.87)
Nymph, I always choose to believe that you are a sock-puppet of Taffy’s. I mean there is no evidence of this and a fair amount of internal evidence it’s extremely unlikely. But I choose to believe it anyway because it would be hilarious.
If I had sock puppet, it’d be way more homophobic.
Whenever anyone you are not very familiar with calls you sibling or sister/brother, it is weird. I suppose it could be a cultural thing, but it isn’t anything that I am too familiar with. On the rare occasion it happens to me, IRL or online, it is weird every single time.
It also appears to me that they tend to use it to try and tone down whatever they are going to say next. In that case, a stranger using an overly familiar term does not tone down anything at all and feels very patronizing. I am not sure that is what Joyce is doing here though, for several reasons. First, she is going off of what Ethan told her for guidance. Secondly, she is using it at the end of the sentence, rather than starting it right off the bat. The cases I have seen it used to tone down what someone is saying, they start right off with it.
Eh, “sister”/”brother” is addressed to non-siblings a lot in labor unions, social and service organizations, churches and social movements. It’s used to express solidarity in a cause or profession.
In English it’s also used when “I love you” would be even weirder because of the ways that that word has been overloaded.
Compare this with the way, in some cultures, it’s normal and expected in some situations to address someone who is not one’s parent as “Mother” or “Father”, to convey respect.
I would agree that in this scene it is indeed a bit weird, but if Joyce had done a bit of work to establish context before plunging in I think it would have been quite appropriate. (Thing is: Carla would have detected the developing context and repelled it. [“I am a Rock” swells in background])
yeah, the turkish / kurdish communities in my city are also using “Bruder“ (brother) to adress any man they meet and have a positive connection to. My barber calls me “Bruder“ and as a trans guy, THIS GIVES ME SO MUCH EUPHORIA.
But that’s also because he does it to every man, not specifically to trans guys! It’s not an overemphasized support statement.
“My sibling in Christ” is used so sarcastically/belittlingly online I hardly ever hear it IRL these days.
Someone gave her a script, there was just a misunderstanding about when to deploy it.
^ this, thank you
She fumbled it and the pages are all out of order now.
I’ve dropped my notebook so many times. *sigh*
What a coincidence, that!
Does Carla know Joyce is an atheist now? Did she previously pay enough attention to know Joyce was religious? Because I could see it being taken as a “sister in Christ” thing, which I would also skate away from… would just add a layer of misunderstanding.
i mean probably not, most of the time she can’t be bothered to remember peoples’ NAMES, let alone their religious orientation XD
But she does remember qualities such as “the annoyingly earnest one.”
I’m *so* excited for Joyce to try and repair this further.
rich people’s misery, unknown family members pop up at every opportunity
(laugh) I forgot about Ethan’s advice.
Panel 4 seems kinda like Joyce is practicing for another important conversation that she doesn’t yet know she’s going to have sometime soon.
You know what? At least she made the decision to be accepting and supportive. That’s a plus in the Joyce column.
yeah. Learning is slow but she is constantly unlearning and learning, so i’m sure she’ll get there.
it just sucks for the people who are in the line of fire while she still gets things wrong on such a basic level…
Re: hover text Ethan’s so gay even his facts aren’t straight.
Not everybody who transitions wants it to be a big deal or even discuss it. Personally I just want to be treated like a normal woman. Having somebody come up and be “special” at me for is not supportive, at least to me. Its like people who insistently they/them you without asking. I was at urgent care Friday and the doctor would not address me as she (or he thank fek) She had been told not using “they/them” pronouns with people who transtion was RUDE! I had a rather arch conversation between her, me and my birth certificate.
Sounds like your doctor got trans and NB people mixed up. Bleh. >.>
1. Your doctor was so ridiculous and rude.
2. While not everybody who transitions wants it to be a big deal or even wants to discuss it, we’re talking about Carla and… honestly, who even knows with her?
3. I’m just going to say point 1 again because omg.
Carla acts as Carla does, so as to make her being trans the least important and interesting thing.
Likely that doctor had not simply been told; she had had it drilled into her until it has become automatic and hard to control.
Plus, these days one risks being reamed out by bystanders who are diversity enthusiasts.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that.
“diversity enthusiasts” is a perfect descriptor. I’m gonna steal it.
Doctor got the spirit (or maybe not even that, maybe just a PC training without inner desire to get it right), but is missing the most important point:
JUST ASK THE PERSON IN FRONT OF YOU ABOUT THEIR PRONOUNS.
And even if you *do* learn a fact about trans people as a whole: if a single individual comes to you and says “that does not apply to me personally“, then you BELIEVE him/her/them/…
The only thing i can speak for for the whole trans community is: We are not a monolith, we are individuals. ^^
Hol up, I thought it was ok to use they/them as a catch-all? Is that wrong?
Well, if the specific person in front of you is specifically saying to use he or she then they’re not a catch-all, they’re a specific person.
Yes but wasn’t the whole point that singular they/them is gender neutral?
“The small, annoying one of you?”
Hey, Dorothy and Joyce are each 5’4″.
Dorothy is the small, less annoying one of them.
And that’s still half a foot shorter than carla
Sorry, forgot inches are factors of 12 and not metric for a second. Over half a foot shorter
Apparently calling her “the one with the jugs” doesn’t go over as well though.
it’s a wonder anyone tolerate Carla
The sheer majesty of her egocentrism is somehow appealing to me. She demands only respect, not service. She can be perceptive and giving. Carla is the good queen who protects and nurtures her subjects, not the evil queen who reduces them to utensils. It’s only off-putting because her monarchy is all in her mind.
Ir is a reaction formation: a protective defense mechanism.
Carla is satisfying to have around when Mary does her hateful crap.
God forbid women do anything!
Eh, she’s not the type of person who’d fuck you over to get ahead, she’s just annoying and eccentric. I think she’d be entertaining in small doses.
Did Joyce feel this supportive when she didn’t know Carla was trans? And will she be so supportive when she finds out about her blood sister?
Joyce, no!
I would very much love to have Carla and Jocelyne pass each other, and have one, mid-conversation, say “Heat from fire”, and the other, without looking up from whatever they are doing reply “Fire from heat”? and then they both just continue on with whatever they were doing without so much as an explanation.
I’ve been in Carla’s skates here before lmao Willis really does seem to understand
yeah it really sucks. Like, what are we supposed to do? “Hey, I’m really glad you just ambushed me at work, where I’m clearly masking as much as I can, so as to avoid these conversations, but yeah sure let me tell you all about the most personal aspects of my core being, so that you can tell me how you have a family member, and give you the opportunity to feel good about yourself…”
It’s okay, Morleuca, FOR YOU WILL ALWAYS BE MY SISTER!
Foolish Carla. Joyce’s friendship is a persistence predator.
“That’s what she does! That’s all she does!“
SO happy she took Ethan’s advice.