I think she accepts the reasoning as valid but still finds it irritating. (Plus Becky acting like a jealous ex over Joyce doing non-Becky-centric things right in front of her might not be helping.)
Judging by Becky’s expression, she may be about to start acting like a jealous ex over Joyce doing non-Becky-centric activities behind Dina’s back, with a sprinkle of ‘how dare you insult my girlfriend’ energy sprinkled on like a disguise.
Yeah but like, I really don’t get the point in pointing that like out like Joyce did, given there’s nothing Dina can really do about it? (she can’t stop being short nor stop being autistic)
She’s pointing it out as part of explaining why she didn’t invite Becky. “We wanted to do a naughty thing and inviting you would have made it much harder”. It’s harsh but it’s the truth. I’m not sure how you can make it less harsh.
And then Joyce, knowing Dina is sensitive about that, tried to head off any assumptions that she herself saw Dina as childlike, and began wildly overcompensating to the point it got very irritating and probably insulting again, because that is how Joyce do.
Another poster made the suggestion that while “Dina looks too young to get into a bar” is the truth, Joyce could have used the excuse “the more people the more chance of failure” (which would also be true, even if it wasn’t the primary reason), an excuse that wouldn’t have specifically targeted Dina.
The problem is, it would have required Joyce to “think fast” in order to come up with the alternative excuse. What seems like a good idea to us while we peruse the interwebs may not occur to someone who is under pressure and has to give an immediate answer.
ppl around that age range are allowed to be immature, although must be sucky for someone to be ‘mature for their age’ and hard to connect with someone even with a one year diff with them acting super immature, tho i guess it depends on how they express themselves/what they do, bc while teens can do/say dumb things sometimes, i kinda wish i had done more ‘dumb things’ with my friends (although breaking the law aside i guess some ppl would use their teenage youth as an excuse to get away with some things that an ‘adult’ should know better)
Yeah, as a fellow “tiny neurodiverse person who looks younger than she is,” I can’t entirely fault Joyce for this. I literally get people carded when I am with them (even if they are normally never carded). One time, when going to eat with my dad, HE was carded for the first time in decades, because I was with him. I was in my early 20s at the time and he in his 60s. He looks young for his age too…but not 4 decades younger. XD
I’d never begrudge someone for being nervous about bringing me to that sort of scenario back before I was 21 (but I also would’ve been too scared to break the rules anyway) so I’d consider Joyce completely reasonable and blameless in this…except for the point that Dina DOES tend to also go unnoticed to an extreme degree, nullifying the effect of her young appearance in this sort of scenario.
This is where Dina and I differ, and I envy this skill. I somehow manage to be extremely conspicuous despite being tiny and quiet. I suspect it’s my hair – platinum blonde tends to stand out like a glow stick on a nighttime jogger. I can’t ever be sneaky.
Honestly, this is a good point for Dina’s upset *not* being about Joyce. If Dina was upset with Joyce, she’d be letting Joyce know about it, not coolly walking away. Dina doesn’t seem like the type to break a promise.
Dina just does not want to deal with this. She ‘knows’ she’s a rebound, and that insecurity is coming back in full force right now.
I was gonna say that it just looked like she was done with Joyce’s shit to me, but it occurs to me that I have no clue what “Dina about to cry” would look like. I don’t… think we’ve seen her cry in this universe? And old continuity Dina probably wouldn’t be an effective yardstick.
I came to post this same theory. No doubt she has had the thought at some point in the last several months, and may even have had the idea of testing the idea empirically with Becky as a form of ‘romantic exploration’. The current discussion may have pushed up her intended timeline and expanded to include the social circle at large. The question really, will she attempt it herself, or seek ‘expert’ advice in the form of Sal (the two of them have not interacted much) who might take an uncharacteristically sympathetic stance on the issue and indeed guide Dina in an attempt to make herself ‘appear’ older than she normally does. Paradoxically, while Sal would say that ‘trying’ to be cool would in fact nullify any coolness, might initially be against such a such a thing; Dina would only be asking about age appearance, not necessarily ‘cool factor’ (as Joyce sees Sal), and perhaps giving Sal the opportunity to help Dina ‘defy expectation’ would be a nice moment of character bonding between them.
In all actuality, sadly, it’s more likely that she’s simply perceiving Becky’s (sadly) transparent display of ‘ex-lover jealously’ behavior and taking issue with it – and the ‘age appearance’ thing only further compounding her discomfort.
What? She looks moderately annoyed. Joyce has said much more upsetting things to her while trying to be a lot less delicate about it. She looks the way everyone does when Joyce is trying to be sensitive about something she’s been bad about in the past and says something incredibly stupid. See: booster in “he uses they/them pronouns”
Dina is going to face a (near term) life of having to carry ID everywhere to prove her age. Let’s face it, any fake ID she might use (not that I think she would like to do so) would be very carefully examined. Or just disbelieved.
I feel you may all be wrong and Dinas beef is actually with Becky for wanting to do this with Joyce and not her. Having Joyce pointing out the possible flaws in that scheme has made it seem like that is unlikely to happen the way Dina would like it to. I could be wrong of course, I was once back in 1996 but tbf I was only four at the time…
1) Geologists and paleontologists do not use BC for mya (millions of years ago), but BP, which means “Before Present”, where “Present” actually means “1950”, because 1950 is when radiometric dating gets hinky due to radioactive nuclear fallout from fission bomb testing. (Things that are on the order of ~10 kya might be young enough that BC or BCE could be an appropriate date reference)
2) While 65 mya is the popular idea of when the end-Cretaceous extinction event took place, it is based on older research. Better radiometric dating has put the end of the Cretaceous as being 66 mya. The adjustment only took place a little more than a decade ago, so it’s unsurprising the older date is still knocking around, but nevertheless.
3) WikiP:Velociraptor actually suggests that velociraptors actually lived from 76-71 mya, although that may just mean that’s the datings for the examples known and found. But older wouldn’t hurt.
(Why am i nitpicking a joke? Because SCIENCE!!! Come to think of it, Dina probably would as well.)
It’s highly likely that 90% of the 65m years statements you see are just people rounding numbers off… I’ve heard 66m years for my entire life; but numbers get rounded to 5s and 0s for ease of calculation.
And I would argue that this interaction WAS Joyce trying to be better. She knew her reasoning was potentially offensive, and made an effort to make it as impersonal and objective as possible to try and soften the blow. Speaking from experience, when you know you’re not going to be able to sell a lie or deflection, it’s better to just rip the bandaid off and say the thing you know they won’t like, and try to be as kind as you can possibly figure out how to be.
Sucking at something is the first step to being good at something. There is no journey without the first steps, even if you mostly stumble and fall when you begin.
Yeah, this is just the equivalent to “he uses they/them pronouns”. She’s very clearly trying to be sensitive about a topic that’s touchy for Dina. She’s just terrible at it lol, always has been always will be. Some people are clumsy and trip on their first few steps, but they’re still determined to make it to the finish line
i mean other than being actively hostile they don’t rly need to be each other’s friends or anything even if becky is still one of joyce’s best friends but hopefully they can reach an understanding.
but i don’t see them voluntarily hanging out one on one versus just group outings or so
I think they could eventually be friends, or at least on friendly terms.
It will take some time to get to that point, not just because Joyce has some serious unlearning to do, but also because Dina herself is coming into her own as an adult as well.
I think i’d still be irritated in the moment but would also appreciate joyce’s explanation of things, but wonder how many ppl would take it as a ‘challenge’ tho other than it being a ‘youthful mistake’ or so, even with a group of friends as part of the experience once, doesn’t rly seem worth it to just be dumb and drunk (esp when you can do dumb fun things together sober XD)
She’s literally not wrong- Dina is very frequently mistaken as much younger and we do not see her express any interest in doing what they did to get into said bar (makeup and clothes wise)
Also becky 100% would have blown it on her own tbf
Yeah, Becky seems like she’d be the *worst* kind of bad liar, the kind that can’t help but make leading statements with an “I know something you don’t know” tone of voice, as a professional liar (magician) it is always *incredibly* painful to encounter. My brother is like that, my former best friend was like that, but like, seriously, how hard is it to just treat the lie as though it’s reality so you can sell it with a straight face? You don’t need to believe it’s true, just operate *as though* it were true and no signs of deception get through, it’s genuinely not difficult.
Oh come on, we all know Dina can just magically appear in the bar without ever actually going through the door. Girl’s got offscreen Nightcrawler powers.
Given how close the university is that they were able to get there by walking distance, i’m surprised they wouldnt be double checking everyone just to be safe unless it’s just like “the actual uni students old enough to drink legally come more than ppl trying to sneak in”
If I remember correctly, didn’t they have (fake) hand-stamps?
I’m not sure how exactly it worked, but my assumption is that the bouncer would have seen the stamps, believed the stamps were legitimate, and thought “I have already checked these people when they got stamped” and just let them in.
They went in with the group of presumably-older-enough ladies and got their hands stamped by the bouncer.
The stamps let the bartender serve them, since they’d obviously been checked by the bouncer.
Back when I went to university, there would sometimes be bars or parties that would stamp your hand when you entered. That way if you left for some reason (to go smoke, or whatever) you could come back and they would know you had already paid the cover charge, checked for ID, etc..
I assumed they had done something like that in the comic, since they showed their hand stamps several strips before they actually ordered anything from the bartender..
But that the panel after they got by the bouncer, presumably getting their hand stamped by him. Showing it off to each other because they were excited to have pulled it off.
To be fair, they *did* sneak in with a group of girls that were (supposedly) *obviously* over 21. Sure, bars are supposed to card anyone who looks younger than 35 (if I’m remembering the training course I had to take made by the Indiana state government to get certified to handle alcohol here correctly), just in case, and some in the area will just card everybody regardless as a matter of policy, but if a bouncer has been particularly busy I could totally see one just waving a group through, especially if said bouncer doesn’t actually care (which is definitely the case with some of them). It’s also possible that the bouncer knew one of the girls in the group, and was like “well, I *know* that she is 23, and she said she was going out with her fellow grad students, so everyone in the group must be of similar ages and thus old enough, no need to bother them with ID checks”. Still against the rules, but a common enough thing.
There has to be a better way of saying it though. Not that my autistic ass can puzzle out the way of acknowledging the fact that it’s simply true there’s no way a bouncer or bartender is going to buy that Dina is 21 without sounding like I’m personally infantalizing her.
The art isn’t realistic enough to be entirely sure but my impression is that Dina is shorter than average for her age, not very well endowed, and for lack of a better term has “a baby face”. Even if you take her out of the clothing she prefers and put her in an evening gown and impeccable makeup there’s a very high chance the bouncer/bartender would assume she’s a twelve or thirteen year old trying to trick them. And that is something Dina is likely going to have to deal with until she starts getting visible grey hairs at least.
There has got to be a way to acknowledge the fact that others will treat her as much younger than she actually is without making it seem like you’re treating her as younger than she actually is. And like I said I don’t know what that way is but having actually treated her as if she’s younger than she actually is in the past is absolutely not helping Joyce here.
There isn’t a good way to say it, Joyce kinda fumbled it here, but her basic strategy really is the best one available. When the answer to a question is something you *know* the other person won’t like to hear, but you know you won’t be able to sell a lie or deflection, the best option is to just be honest, acknowledge that the reality sucks, and make it clear it’s not a personal attack, just an objective observation. Joyce is trying to do that, but she’s putting too much emphasis on “don’t get mad at me” and not enough on empathy. Sometimes you can’t avoid hurting someone’s feelings, so instead of trying to, you’re better off doing your best to soften the blow as much as possible and then focus on helping them feel better again afterward.
As someone who looks very young, that’s not really encouraging actually. It just means our autonomy and authority will be doubted for longer. I don’t care so much about bars or alcohol, because I rarely drink them. But when I got confused for a middle schooler when I was a teacher, or an administrator at the college I worked at kept telling people how amusing it was that I looked like a student, I don’t care who envies me because they feel old.
Plus, there’s no guarantee of continuing to look young. I gained weight in my mid 30s and now it’s very rare for people to assume I’m younger.
Middle aged and while I am glad I still shock people at looking 10 years younger, it gains me little as a ND woman/person – I will still generally be overlooked for dating opportunities, and in my professional life I am still prone to being talked down to or underestimated.
Yeah, the whole, “not being taken seriously as a working professional and adult” part is a struggle and it doesn’t really make you feel great to have people basically dismiss that struggle.
might depend on where you go to/how heavy the asian population in the city is, idk how strict bars are but some grocery stores maybe ppl wouldn’t care if they’re paid min wage, idk if someone will go up and card you if ur doing self checkout but i mean if ur casually buying alcohol it’s prolly less risk than showing up to the bar and leaving inebriated
altho being carded seems like a mild inconvenience rather than a big issue, other than just like not having a drivers license (but even if you never learn to drive, yo ucan still get a ‘state id’)
I’ve never bought alcohol so I don’t know how common this is, but I’m fairly certain I’ve seen self-checkouts have people scan their ID so the machine can verify you’re of age.
My state is stingy about liquor licenses, so our big-box and grocery stores generally don’t carry anything but O’Doul’s and mixers. You have to go to a convenience store or packie, and I’ve never seen self checkout at one of those.
I’ve had the self checkout lock itself down and call for an attendant when I’ve bought spray paint and starting fluid, though.
To get certified to handle alcohol professionally in the state of Indiana you have to go through a digital training course where they instruct you to card everyone who looks younger than 35, so if the bouncers are doing their jobs correctly, they should be carding *most* of the people in this hypothetical group of 35 year old women, or at least around half, since what are the odds that Dina would be the only one to look even slightly younger than their age?
There are some bars where they just check everybody’s ID as a matter of policy anyway. I deliver alcohol for a living and that’s our policy, I’m not even *able* to exercise judgement if I want to, since I’m required to scan your ID into the app in order to complete the order on my end and I could get fired if I don’t. You could be four thousand and seven years old and look every day of your age and I’d still have to card you. I also can’t accept expired IDs for… some reason. This has caused issues with older people on a number of occasions because they think it’s stupid to be carded when they’re visibly several decades over 21, and they think it’s stupid that I can’t give them alcohol because their driver’s license needs to be renewed, but I literally have no choice. There are a couple bars in town that have similar policies, although since they have a person doing the checks instead of a phone app they’re able to be reasonable about things like expired IDs.
That’s really the only reliable way to do it: check everyone. It’s also kinder, in a way, since it (slightly) inconveniences everyone equally.
“…looks younger than 35….” What does that look like? I couldn’t describe it. There were a couple of kids in my high school who could’ve passed for 35, visually at least.
I have been buying alcohol since I was 17 and got my first senior discount I didn’t request when I was 37. Not getting carded was cool, getting free stuff for getting old was less so (free coffee for being over 55), discounts for travel when buying bus tickets was good even though my wife was the only one who qualified (she’s 5 years older than I am). Yeah, I’ve never been cougar bait but I have been pursued by “Grandpa chasers” since my mid-40s.
I mean, they might get some side eye/looked down upon, but even if they didn’t drink, i wouldn’t be surprised if there were some kids brought to bars by their parents
if only so they could be the ‘designated driver’ or keep an eye on them/reverse parenting lol
tho, other than joining the group i can imagine dina being fine wit hbeing the ‘sober’ one for the night and just observing how everyone is drunk lol
Unfortunately that doesn’t fly in Indiana, even if the kid doesn’t drink you can’t legally enter a bar under the age of 21. There are *some* exceptions for things like employment, for instance I went to high school with a girl who played bass in a local rock band that was moderately popular in the area, and when they’d have gigs at bars she was allowed to go in, but there was like paperwork to fill out, she was required to have a legal guardian on the premises, and she was only allowed to enter and exit through the employee entrance and not the front where the customers came and went. I think she was also restricted to where in the bar she was allowed to go, like there was one table next to the stage that would be labelled as “no alcohol” or something and that was the only place she was allowed to sit. If I’m remembering correctly, I haven’t spoken to her since I graduated a decade ago, and I wasn’t really involved in any of that, we just sat next to each other in latin class for a semester and I learned of this because she was bragging that she did her homework in a bar the night before one time. But speaking as someone certified to serve alcohol in Indiana, yeah, they can’t legally let a minor into the bar under most circumstances, even if they were to employ some kind of marking system to label them as “do not serve alcohol” the way some states allow.
Another exception is dry events, I recall in the 4th grade I went to a regional chess tournament that was hosted at a bar here called “The Bishop” (fun fact, The Bishop appears to be the model Willis used for the bar that Joyce and Dorothy snuck into), they had all the alcohol locked up so there was no chance of the (many) minors on the premises sneaking any, it wasn’t even visible anywhere. In fact, I had no idea it was a bar until several years later.
Maybe an Indiana thing. I spent waaaaaaaay more time in bars as a small child in an undisclosed part of the US than I ever have as an adult pushing forty.
Which admittedly isn’t hard, since I don’t think I’ve ever set foot in one as an adult, but it’s still true.
Not just Indiana, I once got ditched in New Orleans on Bourbon Street because my mom went into a bar without me and they wouldn’t even let me in to look for her. Nor would they have anyone inside look for her.
In Texas if you have your parent with you, you can go damn near anywhere and do pretty much anything as long as they okay it and it’s not against a personal company policy. Drinking included.
As a Texas resident can confirm that the only thing you can’t do in a bar as a minor is actually buy the alcohol even if you use your parent’s card. When your parents bring you in you can drink anything served to the table, some places don’t let minors order, others don’t care as long as the adult(s) pay for it.
If there is a separate non-bar section (like in a “bar and grill”) children can be seated there, but there were several instances when I was in high school and hanging out with my adult friends where I would have to eat alone because they all decided to sit in the bar section of a restaurant and I was the only minor. I’m not sure if the law makes a distinction between a “bar” and a “pub” here, as most pubs have bars in them, but get treated more like bars than restaurants with bar sections, then there are bars that are definitely not “pubs” but still are called “pub” on their signage, and then there are a couple that are neither a bar nor a pub but still call themselves a pub on their signs, so I don’t think the term “pub” actually has an official definition various establishments are expected to follow. There’s also at least one saloon that definitely doesn’t fit the definition of a saloon here.
Even though it wasn’t Joyce’s real reason for not inviting Becky (that Joyce needed to get Dotty alone and drunk to find out what was wrong), I think Joyce has a point. It’s pretty unlikely for Dina to have passed as 21. If Dina got in it would only be because of her ninja skills and not because anyone believed she was 21.
they could ask jen to get them a fake id but it’d be easier to just ask some older students to buy them a six pack and have a more private in dorm party, RA/rules aside
Every time Dina is in front of her, Joyce cannot be impeccable with her words. And to think that Joyce herself said that she would try to improve with her.
You forgot to add to the count of something not focusing on Becky exclusively and her being upset by it. She’s almost as insufferable as Carla in that regard.
I don’t want them to break up but it would make for entertaining drama for some ppl if they did all go together, becky gets drunk and more or less admits she still loves joyce in front of dina to see what the fallout would be the following week haha
But that was a long time ago. Since then, Becky lost her father. They lost their V cards to eachother. “Lesbian wives have been confirmed!”
I think Becky has some processing to do WRT Joyce, but e.g. doesn’t seem to have noticed the “sexy cleavage sweater vest outfit” that had Sarah cringing a bit. Sapphic crushes can get confusing (at least for some women, at least sometimes) with “do I want to be you, or be with you?” – and they have real, sincere friendship there too…
As kids, Joyce was the one with two loving parents who really “were” a cohesive unit. She was the one who the community believed would succeed – she got widespread approval and support. She was the one who could “cope” with the temptations of a secular college.
I hope Mrs McIntyre made her feel like a failure, but in the eyes of most, Becky was a mess whose friendship with Joyce was probably seen as her most redeeming feature. She probably got beaten with wooden spoons more than most, and this was basically common knowledge.
Her friend, with the supportive, loving parents, whose happy smile wasn’t hiding pain, who believed as devoutly as she did and could name chapters verse and draw you a Picture Bible accurate depiction to back up any religious argument, and who tried to keep her out of too much trouble, and whose house she could escape to and her dad would be OK with it..? Sure, she was pretty and they had fun together and she could tease her (autocorrect changed that to “taste”… Pretty sure that didn’t happen o.O) and make her pull the BEST horrified faces… But did she really want to be with her? Or did she want to be her?
Dina… She decided she wanted to be a scientist after meeting her, but the delineation is a bit clearer. Dina, I think she wants to be with.
(You can also see this very much in Joyce’s plausibly crush-coded friendships. Wanting to play dress-up with Sal, and brush her hair, and borrow her clothes. She straight up TOLD Dorothy she wants to be her and Joe was somewhat startled this is how she defines love.)
About the Bar thing yeah, she really has no legit reason. But she did just watch her girlfriend get upset because of something Joyce said, and even though Joyce is correct, that doesn’t mean Becky can’t be upset at Joyce for saying it like she did.
Joyce is not good at talking, and she does not know how to talk to Dina (To be fair she very rarely is even in the same room as her, and if she was, she wouldn’t know because Dina has raptor stealth on half the time.), and to be fair, most people don’t know how to interact with people on the spectrum. I am on the spectrum and I have problems talking to other people on the spectrum (Its a VERY big spectrum).
However well meaning Joyce meant it or how she wanted it to be taken, that doesn’t change the fact that what she said was insensitive and made Dina feel left out, and to her meant that her different way of functioning has caused her Girlfriend to be left out to, doubling down on the hurt.
yeah, it’s good to have reasoning but an over-explanation seems like it might be more offensive, but it would’ve been better to just be like “i wanted to go out drinking with dorothy specifically bc i’ve been worried about how she’s been acting”
As someone similarly affected (constantly mistaken as much younger than I am), god it’s infuriating. And everyone expects you to be grateful and “oh but you’ll miss it when you’re younger!!” No, no I won’t, I thought I could stop worrying about certain things (that start with p and in end “ile”) when I hit 18/20, and YET I got mistaken as under 18 last year, literally on my 31st birthday.
And before you go “how’s it that bad” think, just think, about how you’d feel if EVERYONE constantly thought you were an 18 year old. At 30. It’s not as glamourous as you’d think.
Fully agree. Especially in professional contexts. Or any situation where I need to be taken seriously. And no, I don’t get any “benefits” now that I’m older, because I gained weight and apparently that means I don’t look very young anymore. Personally though, I’m just thankful that I’m consistently treated as an adult now. I don’t care if people think I’m old and fat, at least they start our interactions with the assumption that I make my own decisions, and they don’t need to contact my parents.
I think it’d only be good if you wanted to stay/look young but other than being treated nicer at like work b/c they think its ur first job, but wouldn’t be surprised if presentation helps too, i wouldn’t be surprised if there was some ‘aging’ makeup versus just dressing nicer but it’s rare to see the opposite happens, or maybe ppl are just impressed b/c some white ppl age faster than others/some americans, i’ve seen some guys mid 20s with like a beer gut and going grey but genes aside i guess depends on how ppl take care of themselves, but it does make me think of that one story where some underage girl used covid to wear a mask and do some ‘granny makeup’ to buy beer
Had a friend from college many years who was very petite, had amazing skin, and had very rosy chubby cheeks. She did a lot of frustrated stomping ar being treated like an infant.
As a fellow short slight person, we did a lot of knowing eye rolls at each other when people treated her like crap.
I’m on the opposite side of this coin- people have told me that I look older than my actual age (by anywhere from 5-15 years) for a decade. I have a brother who’s 10 years older than I am, and *many* people have asked if I am older than him. It might not be the most pleasing thing to be identified as being much younger than your age… But it absolutely sucks to constantly be identified as much older than your age.
It’s more or less equivalent to a constant refrain of “you look tired and ugly.” As for dating success…. Well, there isn’t any.
that’s the joke, they don’t know what a keg stand is, they’re guessing. as becky says, they promised each other at the beginning of the semester to “learn what it is without havin’ to google it”: https://www.dumbingofage.com/andwereback/
couple years back i went to get a haircut and the stylist was making conversation, as you do, and she asked what grade i was in. i said oh, i actually graduated recently. and she said oh, really! so you’ll be heading into high school next year, or…?
the thing i had just graduated from was college. and gang, i had not even finished in four years.
guess it can be a social place but i never rly make small talk with ppl/try to make interactions quick, tho up to a certain point i can imagine a 25 year old still being mistaken as like an 18 year old versus the “40 year olds playing teenagers as actors” (tho at least it’s not as awkward as “I graduated high school over a decade ago but i didn’t go to college and haven’t done anything with my life since)
after a certain point unless you have really bad genes/don’t take care of your health i think most ppl more or less do stop aging/maybe decade by decade versus every 2-3 years
I don’t think she’s wrong, but god. Joyce really would benefit from knowing how to perform a white lie. Like, she is absolutely terrible at it, and thus avoids it knowing this, but still. There are a lot of valid reasons she could have pointed to, like if she didn’t want to have more potential points of failure by involving more people in the scheme, or didn’t want to ask Becky to take on that risk of being found out, etc etc, but I get that it isn’t what Joyce’s actual issue was, and thus she is unable to pretend it is with her current skillset.
Or “something is bothering Dorothy. She was unravelling before my eyes. I thought she’d be more likely to tell me about it if we were alone [and a little drunk]. It was a snap decision in an emergency.”
I will admit that that takes a level of self-awareness of which I’m still not consistently capable.
This is kind of a white lie though.
She’s covering for not wanting to talk about her concern for Dorothy publicly, which is valid and this has deflected from it well. Just into other dangerous directions.
No, I don’t think she’s angry with you, Joyce. She’s upset with reality. If I was in her position, and knowing how my own autism is, I’d be going, “…Yeah, I’ll always be seen as a kid… Yeah… :<"
other than the sneaking past by ppl, i wonder if it’d work if she did just stare down a bouncer and just get a ‘pass’ without needing to dress up/put on makeup like joyce
tho i wonder how often it has the opposite effect, other than a pro makeup artist or or just a lot of practice, since makeup does make you look younger or skin smoother depending on the products you use, might not always help you look more ‘mature’. or maybe the opposite of ‘trying too hard to look older’, i don’t rly like red lipstick myself that much but other than it being messy/clown-y, even if i don’t put on a lot, sometimes when i wear lipstick it looks like an 11 year old who went through her moms makeup bag
It’s not just appearance, though. A lot of people would notice Dina’s intense interest in a topic that most find, at best, mildly diverting, and perceive it as more appropriate to 12 than to 18.
But I do think Dina is thinking in terms of apperance just now. She’s going to disappear for a few strips and show up with a new look, well crafted, and her friends will be dumbfounded. If she goes for “businesslike” people may start mistaking her for a professor of paleontology.
i’m surprised jen got a comment about having ‘crows feet’ or so. idk if it was from heavy makeup usage or just alcohol aging you faster or so considering it doesn’t show on her body otherwise lol
Now that Joyce knows she’s autistic, she might benefit from a neurodivergent therapist (not just one that focuses on neurodivergence, but one that actually is). Cause this definitely sounds like the way I would over-correct before I learned that I’m autistic. I’d say something, immediately clock that it was not the right thing to say and then keep talking to make things either worse or weirder. Therapy has helped me so much with communication and navigating a neurotypical world.
Probably not but she hasn’t verbalized as much and I think it’s clear that Dina in this strip is hearing Joyce say “Dina doesn’t look her age” and thinking right back to that moment.
At least the 12 year old is a 12 year old. I had a 7 year old assume I was “a mommy” just because I’m an adult. Riley’s a kid. Joyce isn’t a kid.
Also, just gonna say the quiet part out loud, pretty sure the things that lead to people assuming Dina “acts” like she’s twelve are things related to the fact that she’s likely autistic. Enjoying cereal (literally why she and Riley connected in the above), her interest in dinosaurs. She has comfort foods and special interests. Other people take these things and assume she’s “acting like a child” even though she is definitely not a child. It’s not childish to have comfort foods. It isn’t childish to enjoy dinosaurs. So. You know. I’m just saying, the people in the comments section here should probably think a little bit more before just nodding along and going “yeah yeah, Dina doesn’t look her age at all, Joyce is right” because there is an implication wrapped up in there that is. Not great.
I assume most commenters think she looks younger than 19 because it has been mentioned by multiple characters.
And while loving dinosaurs, wearing novelty hats, and eating cereal everyday is something many people of all ages do, it is more associated with children. As other characters got to know Dina better they treated her like a peer.
Yeah nothing says “treated like a peer” quite like being told “I didn’t invite your girlfriend to go drinking because she probably would invite you and you can’t pass for being 21 or over”.
I get you are being sarcastic but yeah, that is being treated like a peer.
I mean, sure, Joyce said it awkwardly but acknowledging someone probably can’t pass as older than they are is fine. Like, I’m a short (shorter than Dina if the fan wiki is correct), baby faced adult that likes cartoons and eating cereal everyday. It’s all good.
man I know that mood where you have a point but there’s a valid problem with it but there’s a valid problem with that and everyone seems to be mad that you said anything at all like there was a secret better way to address a situation and you just want to die or kill everyone, depends on the moment, and nobody is filling you in on what you should’ve done
shit sucks
Joyce pretty clearly has a point and has difficulties expressing it because she’s autistic and Dina is irritated because she’s fed up with it and Becky is like “be nice to my girlfriend” but this is not a great situation for anyone.
Anyone who is saying Joyce has a point is missing the real point: If she resepected Dinah (or Becky) at all she could have ASKED and been HONEST and given them the credit for friendship, maturity to work with her.
Dinah may well have said “Going out drinking sounds awful, I will stay in and play on the Nintendo” or she may have, as someone suggested, dressed up and proved Joyce wrong.
Joyce did not give her a chance, or any autonomy. She ASSUMED and made a decision for her. She has shown a lack of trust in Becky and Dinah, and treated them like they are too stupid to cooperate or make rational decisions the way she can.
Agreed, whether Dina “really looks her age” or not, in the end it’s just a silly excuse when the truth is that she just didn’t want Becky and Dina to go. Which is fine! Joyce can do things without them! But the least she could do is respect them when she tells them why she didn’t want to invite them and this kind of response is… not so great. I’d be pissed off too if my best friend told me “well I didn’t invite you to party with me cause you might bring your girlfriend and she couldn’t pass for being over 21”. That opens up a big can of worms for a fight, honestly.
Sure, but the honest reason is “I wanted to make it all about Dorothy because she’s spiralling”, and I feel like maybe you don’t just blurt that out without checking with Dorothy.
You also don’t just blurt whatever this is out, of course, so I dunno what the right answer is.
Hmm. I think what Joyce is saying here is Not Good, but I’m not ready to embrace “every time you don’t invite someone to something, you’re robbing them of their autonomy” either.
Does it also apply to Joyce not inviting Sarah? Or Sal?
Now, if you want to talk about Joyce robbing Dina of her autonomy by telling her “this is how your side of the argument would go and I’ve already refuted it”, I’m totally behind that.
Dina does canonically look, and dress, young. Dina is being a little sensitive but Joyce did stick her foot in her mouth explaining though.
However a more true but still respectful explanation- “I just wanted to spend some time with Dorothy” probably wouldn’t make Becky less mad.
I don’t really see how Dina dresses younger than the rest of the cast. Aside from the very few times she’s worn that one dinosaur hoodie. Is it because she’s not showing cleavage?
She’s changed a bit now, but at the beginning the comic she seemed to favour fairly shapeless t-shirts and big-ish shorts. Combine that with her not being especially curvey and that translated to “childish dressing” for a lot of people.
But the whole point of the outing was to get Dorothy to loosen up and talk about her spiraling. She can’t talk about *that*, and she can’t say “I wanted to spend time with Dorothy” because then it would inflame Becky’s constantly lingering sense of insecurity and losing Joyce as a friend.
So…what does she say exactly? I don’t really blame Joyce for going for “if I invited you, you’d invite Dina, and Dina’s presence might have messed it all up” then walking into a social fumble where she accidentally reinforces Dina’s infantilization.
She could have asked Dorothy if she was ok with Becky coming along. I think it took Amber being there to finally get the information from Dorothy anyway, and there’s a good chance if Becky was there and knew something was up she’d have helped reveal the truth too.
She could have asked, but whether Dorothy’s okay with it or not, there’s still a good chance it’d derail the actual mission.
It would also involve asking Dorothy if she was okay with Joyce talking to Becky about Joyce’s concerns over Dorothy spiraling.
A) she’s done absolutely nothing to Dina’s autonomy. She literally just didn’t invite them for drinks.
B) this is obviously an excuse that Joyce is drumming up to avoid telling Becky the truth out of respect for Dorothy’s privacy, not an actual reflection of how she feels about Dina.
C) again, she literally just didn’t invite them for drinks. It has nothing to do with how much she respects them. She’s not obligated to include Becky in everything, or anything, that she does.
I’m basing this on the words that came out of her mouth in this moment, that have led to Dina storming off, not the original decision and what we imagine was or was not in Joyce’s head at that moment.
If she genuinely didn’t give an invite because “Dina can’t pass as older” it is in fact removing Dina from the conversation and making that call for her, like an adult going over a child’s head. Very belittling and yes, robbing of autonomy.
But if it’s her trip at risk she can determine what risk she is accepting via invitation. Not defending Joyce, but your allowed to decide who to invite based on if it will accomplish goals.
I question whether Joyce even thought of Becky or Dina at the time. It was not a social occasion, but an intervention.
Now she’s been reminded of a promise that she’s seemingly broken, and has about 800 milliseconds to come up with a plausible excuse. I’d probably just freeze up until people stop talking and I have time to think.
This age stuff is also interesting for me too because I don’t usually look my age and my mom was the same way. There’s a two year age gap between my parents and when they were in their twenties and dating, she said whenever she was out with my dad, people would shoot daggers at my father because pre-pregnant, my mom was short and petite so people thought she was way younger than she actually was.
I am much more certain than not that Joyce is making up an excuse in the moment, and I think Dina is more hurt by the blatant lie of it than by any specific thing Joyce said. If Joyce ACTUALLY had thought this through beforehand, that might have made it less hurtful in Dina’s mind.
That’s not really a problem though? Joyce was caught up in the moment and didn’t think of contacting Becky. Joyce never said this is the reason why she didn’t, but this is a valid reason why she wouldn’t have thought to. It doesn’t seem like something Dina would be bothered by.
I like Becky, but I don’t think it would have flown as a valid reason for Becky. And Joyce knows that. Which is why she’s flailing so hard here, she’s on eggshells because 99% of anything she could say won’t be taken as a valid excuse by Becky, she apparently can’t explain the actual situation for some reason, and so she tries to grab the first semi-plausible sounding thing that pops into her head.
Like, if Becky didn’t do this every time Joyce did anything, this convo would’ve gone a lot differently. Tbh I think Becky and Joyce should probably cool it on their friendship, they’re kinda going two different directions and that’s okay, but Becky kinda puts way too much on Joyce (and Joyce does her own things too that are Very Bad for this friendship dgmw, but I’m just focusing on Becky rn because she started the convo with intent to argue).
I rarely comment but this seems like a good time. Joyce, your arguments should have gone as follows (please note I’m not taking Becky’s side):
First- it was a snap decision so there wasn’t time to include everyone I wanted.
Second- Dorothy was in a very bad spot and wasn’t opening up so I was more focused on getting her into a spot where she could more so than making this a social outing.
Third- (she makes this one..poorly) I would never have thought to invite you without inviting Dina and the more of us there were the more likely we would have been caught. And no offense, Dina you do routinely get mistaken for someone barely out of middle school which would have made it even harder.
Fourth- You, Becky, are an bad enough liar with low enough impulse control who would have gotten any with an inkling of suspicion to pook hard enough to get us kicked out thus ruining the plan. Especially sine you want to yell about it here.
And on a personal note from myself and not Joyce: Fuck off Becky. Friend or not she literally owes you nothing, you’re not entitled to her time or Friendship get off your crush addled high horse.
But, Joyce was under pressure (I’m sure she didn’t expect to be confronted by Becky like that), and would have had to think fast to come up with, well, any of those excuses. And when panic/adrenaline hit, you don’t often come up with good ideas
It’s amazing how expressive you made that last panel for Dina ~ I’m sure some of it is me using context to infer things, but the way her expression shifted to be a little more dead-eyed, the way her posture looks like she’s suddenly weighed down, it’s very relatable for me.
A prior promise from Joyce that this is something they’d do together improves Becky’s position. She’s still not handling it well, but there’s more justification for her being upset than Joyce not just automatically including her in all social activities.
While this does feel kinda mean, from a strategic perspective she’s totally right, if you have 18 year olds that are trying to pass as 21 you don’t want anything to raise suspicions, and unfortunately a 21 year old that looks like she’s 18 would fuck up the bag for all of them 😭
I’m surprised how many people think Joyce didn’t say anything wrong. As a fellow sufferer of foot-in-mouth disease, I usually sympathize hard with that part, but for me it’s weird that she’s making it about Dina in the first place.
I have no memory of inviting Becky crossing Joyce’s mind, with or without Dina. She certainly hung out with Dorothy alone while Dorothy was dating other people. Even if that was genuinely the reason, it’s understandable that Dina wouldn’t love hearing her girlfriend being told that choosing to date her means her best friend excluding her from things that are important to her.
It’s also fair to want to do things that aren’t universally accessible.
There are plenty of times when a friend is welcome to join where hanging out with them specifically isn’t the point of those specific plans. But if you are disabled, you find out just how often hanging out with you isn’t the point by how often accommodating you isn’t worth risking the plan. It’s not different from everyone else’s relationships except for the social niceties
that make it a lot less blunt and a lot less frequently confronted point-blank for typical people. It still hurts when it happens, even if you get that you’re not the main character all the time.
Dina isn’t the main character to anyone but Becky, and she made friends, but they are mostly Becky’s friends, and they just told her ththat not only did it not matter that she be included, but now she gets to watch someone she loves being excluded by the other person SHE relies on to treat her like a main character.
Joyce said something that could be and turned out to be hurtful, but accidentally hurting people is a normal part of life and I don’t think people should be told off for saying something wrong in an ethical sense, that’s too harsh. It was hurtful, unwise, lacked empathy, and a mistake, but not unethical. It is within the range things you’re allowed to say. And yes, saying things like that can lead to conflict, and yes that is a suboptimal situation, but it doesn’t mean you’re on the path to becoming evil, it just means you’re as complex as any other human interacting in a complex way with another complex human.
Conflicts are an unavoidable part of the kind of complex interactions that make socializing worth it, and calling any act that could cause a conflict wrong implies that we should just stop interacting with those people we do not yet understand well enough to perfectly predict at all time, which would be the death of society.
Honestly it just comes off as hypocritical because Joyce complained about being infantilized as well. Kind of a sucky move to do the same to another person as a way to get your friend off your back.
I find the blind agreement with Joyce pretty frustrating too, especially when I’m doing my best to break down WHY Dina being infantilized like this is pretty shitty, since it’s caked in that good old ableism, only to get responses like “hmm well, dinosaurs are more associated with kids, and Dina isn’t showing off her curves, so she does look and act more childish, so she has no reason to be upset”.
for me it’s not that she didn’t say anything wrong – she definitely did and there were a lot of ways to avoid this problem
it’s that she’s not technically incorrect and that feels like the same thing before one opens their mouth
and I’m sympathising heavily with doing your best but still standing there finding yourself hated for what you thought was the best way to avoid that exact kind of moment and people are still looking at you so you keep talking because clearly they expect more but apparently not more of this, for some reason
I think a lot of people can sympathise with someone fucking up socially, I don’t know that it’s that weird
That’s really insulting. Wow. I don’t care if Joyce is right. She’s still infantilizing Dina by assuming she could never pass as 21. And even if she couldn’t, she would still probably be able to get in the bar by blending in. It’s not the same, but the method doesn’t matter, only the end result does. Fuck off with that “don’t blame me” bullcrap explanation. Especially since she HAS treated Dina differently before, due to perception of age.
5 bucks says Dina is off to brew her own moonshine and get shitfaced in front of them. That or she’ll just hit a store and bullshit her way into getting some liqueur.
She enjoyed palaeontology so much that she is doing it Twice!
Hmm auto-correct suggest palaeopathology… what is that… oh interesting
“Paleopathology encompasses the study of disease, both human and nonhuman, “
I’m disappointed that Joyce seems to have accidentally trampled on Dina’s feelings here, because it feels like a bit of a regression in their relationship and it’s distracting from the bigger problem: Becky’s possessiveness.
The feelings in this strip are many and conflicting.
For one, it’s understandable to feel sympathy for Joyce, as she legitimately didn’t intend to offend Dina, and you sorta want to back her up because it kinda would be hard for Dina to pass as 21, her young-looking face and height being at least two factors.
However, it can also be said that defending Joyce is wrong, because whether or not she intended to offend Dina or not, she still left her and Becky out of going for drinks.
However, it can also be said that she was not obligated to ask Becky and Dina to go out for drinks. She went with just Dorothy because she noticed that there was something wrong with one of her close college friends and she wanted to do something to help her.
It would’ve been nice if she had invited Becky and Dina out with them, but I feel like it might not have helped Joyce’s initial plan of helping Dorothy feel better.
I’m starting to think that after college Becky and Joyce will go their separate ways, becoming the kind of friends who write greetings to each other at holidays and then never talk to each other again. What a strange coincidence that a good friendship like this goes down on the same day that in “Luann” a friendship that looked doomed seems to come back stronger than ever.
… considering how the entire thing happened – Joyce suddenly realized something was very wrong with Dorothy, rushed over there, dragged her out with a half-thought-out idea of going and getting drinks and hopefully making her feel happy and getting her to open up about what was wrong…
Joyce telling Becky that Dina was the reason that she didn’t include her, is a lie.
It’s not the reason. It’s a justification, concocted after the decision was made, so that Becky wouldn’t get mad at her. And it’s not even a very good one: people don’t *have* to invite the boyfriend or girlfriend when going out as friends. Joyce didn’t drag Joe along, after all.
And whether Becky knows it was a lie or not, she knows that the WAY that Joyce said it, was throwing Dina under the bus and making her take the blame for something she couldn’t control, rather than Joyce accept that she was in any way responsible for Becky’s hurt feelings.
Joyce knows it, too. That’s why she had “anticipated and addressed all her grievances” – she knew she’d have them. Just because Joyce is most likely on the spectrum doesn’t mean that she suddenly forgot everything she ever knew about friends and loyalty and making others feel loved and accepted.
Yes Joyce, she *still* gets to be angry because you don’t get to tell her how to feel about reality and about you bringing it up. You are growing and catching yourself on your mistakes right away, which is great progress, but even just being reminded of a sore topic can ruin a person’s day, even if you notice and apologize right away. But you’ll learn. You are learning so much. I’m proud of you.
Hm. Maybe this isn’t about Joyce anymore. I guess i’ve started talking to my younger self halfway through.
Joyce’s next self-improvement project: stop talking before the shit comes out.
It’s a pretty long project. I’m almost certain it can be accomplished within the human lifetime. If nothing else, it’s certainly achieved afterwards.
Anyway, she’s also lying. I doubt she ever considered that whole thing. It’s the sort of excuse you make because you anticipate having to lie and overprepare.
She did not want to invite Becky. That’s it. And she pretends it’s about Dina (oh so logical, sure) so that she doesn’t make it about Becky. A more personal argument. Again.
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Days since Joyce was caught with her foot in her mouth: (-_-)
At least Dina appears more exasperated than angry.
I think she accepts the reasoning as valid but still finds it irritating. (Plus Becky acting like a jealous ex over Joyce doing non-Becky-centric things right in front of her might not be helping.)
Judging by Becky’s expression, she may be about to start acting like a jealous ex over Joyce doing non-Becky-centric activities behind Dina’s back, with a sprinkle of ‘how dare you insult my girlfriend’ energy sprinkled on like a disguise.
Ye, basically Dina is ticked with the situation rather than Joyce herself. Probably feeling mildly crushed
More like… disappointed.
Especially since she gotta put up with these kinds of hurtful assumptions just about everywhere.
Yeah, it seemed sort of like a “I’m not surprised but I am still disappointed” scenario. Also, great memory to recall and find that specific strip.
Dina may be disappointed, but what are the “assumptions” here?
I mean, assuming Dina is less mature than the rest because of her appearance and actions would be a “hurtful assumption”.
But simply saying “Dina looks young” isn’t an assumption, it’s a fact.
Yeah but like, I really don’t get the point in pointing that like out like Joyce did, given there’s nothing Dina can really do about it? (she can’t stop being short nor stop being autistic)
She’s pointing it out as part of explaining why she didn’t invite Becky. “We wanted to do a naughty thing and inviting you would have made it much harder”. It’s harsh but it’s the truth. I’m not sure how you can make it less harsh.
And then Joyce, knowing Dina is sensitive about that, tried to head off any assumptions that she herself saw Dina as childlike, and began wildly overcompensating to the point it got very irritating and probably insulting again, because that is how Joyce do.
Another poster made the suggestion that while “Dina looks too young to get into a bar” is the truth, Joyce could have used the excuse “the more people the more chance of failure” (which would also be true, even if it wasn’t the primary reason), an excuse that wouldn’t have specifically targeted Dina.
The problem is, it would have required Joyce to “think fast” in order to come up with the alternative excuse. What seems like a good idea to us while we peruse the interwebs may not occur to someone who is under pressure and has to give an immediate answer.
ppl around that age range are allowed to be immature, although must be sucky for someone to be ‘mature for their age’ and hard to connect with someone even with a one year diff with them acting super immature, tho i guess it depends on how they express themselves/what they do, bc while teens can do/say dumb things sometimes, i kinda wish i had done more ‘dumb things’ with my friends (although breaking the law aside i guess some ppl would use their teenage youth as an excuse to get away with some things that an ‘adult’ should know better)
Yeah, as a fellow “tiny neurodiverse person who looks younger than she is,” I can’t entirely fault Joyce for this. I literally get people carded when I am with them (even if they are normally never carded). One time, when going to eat with my dad, HE was carded for the first time in decades, because I was with him. I was in my early 20s at the time and he in his 60s. He looks young for his age too…but not 4 decades younger. XD
I’d never begrudge someone for being nervous about bringing me to that sort of scenario back before I was 21 (but I also would’ve been too scared to break the rules anyway) so I’d consider Joyce completely reasonable and blameless in this…except for the point that Dina DOES tend to also go unnoticed to an extreme degree, nullifying the effect of her young appearance in this sort of scenario.
This is where Dina and I differ, and I envy this skill. I somehow manage to be extremely conspicuous despite being tiny and quiet. I suspect it’s my hair – platinum blonde tends to stand out like a glow stick on a nighttime jogger. I can’t ever be sneaky.
Honestly, this is a good point for Dina’s upset *not* being about Joyce. If Dina was upset with Joyce, she’d be letting Joyce know about it, not coolly walking away. Dina doesn’t seem like the type to break a promise.
Dina just does not want to deal with this. She ‘knows’ she’s a rebound, and that insecurity is coming back in full force right now.
I think she looks like she’s going to cry.
I was gonna say that it just looked like she was done with Joyce’s shit to me, but it occurs to me that I have no clue what “Dina about to cry” would look like. I don’t… think we’ve seen her cry in this universe? And old continuity Dina probably wouldn’t be an effective yardstick.
IIRC she came close to crying when she learned about the physical abuse Becky faced in her childhood.
Even when I don’t cry in response to prejudices like that (sometimes I do in private), I often still cry on the inside. Dina may be too.
I think she looks as if she’s determined to make a liar of Joyce by reappearing as someone who looks older than 21.
Would probably be more effective to return with alcohol.
Turns out you called it. Also, did not flag your comment intentionally.
I came to post this same theory. No doubt she has had the thought at some point in the last several months, and may even have had the idea of testing the idea empirically with Becky as a form of ‘romantic exploration’. The current discussion may have pushed up her intended timeline and expanded to include the social circle at large. The question really, will she attempt it herself, or seek ‘expert’ advice in the form of Sal (the two of them have not interacted much) who might take an uncharacteristically sympathetic stance on the issue and indeed guide Dina in an attempt to make herself ‘appear’ older than she normally does. Paradoxically, while Sal would say that ‘trying’ to be cool would in fact nullify any coolness, might initially be against such a such a thing; Dina would only be asking about age appearance, not necessarily ‘cool factor’ (as Joyce sees Sal), and perhaps giving Sal the opportunity to help Dina ‘defy expectation’ would be a nice moment of character bonding between them.
In all actuality, sadly, it’s more likely that she’s simply perceiving Becky’s (sadly) transparent display of ‘ex-lover jealously’ behavior and taking issue with it – and the ‘age appearance’ thing only further compounding her discomfort.
To me it looks like rolling her eyes.
I read generally grumpy off of her posture, which can include but is not limited to eyerolling.
What? She looks moderately annoyed. Joyce has said much more upsetting things to her while trying to be a lot less delicate about it. She looks the way everyone does when Joyce is trying to be sensitive about something she’s been bad about in the past and says something incredibly stupid. See: booster in “he uses they/them pronouns”
About Becky.
Not exasperated, more like disappointed. But we did get two Joyce Faces for the price of one
Dina is going to face a (near term) life of having to carry ID everywhere to prove her age. Let’s face it, any fake ID she might use (not that I think she would like to do so) would be very carefully examined. Or just disbelieved.
Waddaya mean? She totally saved it.
I feel you may all be wrong and Dinas beef is actually with Becky for wanting to do this with Joyce and not her. Having Joyce pointing out the possible flaws in that scheme has made it seem like that is unlikely to happen the way Dina would like it to. I could be wrong of course, I was once back in 1996 but tbf I was only four at the time…
Added on top of the fact that Dina is well aware that she’s Becky’s rebound from Joyce.
I accidentally reported your comment! I’m sorry!
Bouncer: “This ID says you are…a velociraptor?”
Dina: “That is correct.”
Bouncer: “Date of birth: 65 Million BC. Let’s see, it’s January, 16.5 million leap years…yeah, you’re good, come on in.”
Joyce: ⊙▃⊙
That bouncer was Kronk.
3 nits:
1) Geologists and paleontologists do not use BC for mya (millions of years ago), but BP, which means “Before Present”, where “Present” actually means “1950”, because 1950 is when radiometric dating gets hinky due to radioactive nuclear fallout from fission bomb testing. (Things that are on the order of ~10 kya might be young enough that BC or BCE could be an appropriate date reference)
2) While 65 mya is the popular idea of when the end-Cretaceous extinction event took place, it is based on older research. Better radiometric dating has put the end of the Cretaceous as being 66 mya. The adjustment only took place a little more than a decade ago, so it’s unsurprising the older date is still knocking around, but nevertheless.
3) WikiP:Velociraptor actually suggests that velociraptors actually lived from 76-71 mya, although that may just mean that’s the datings for the examples known and found. But older wouldn’t hurt.
(Why am i nitpicking a joke? Because SCIENCE!!! Come to think of it, Dina probably would as well.)
One nit for your nit-picking….
It’s highly likely that 90% of the 65m years statements you see are just people rounding numbers off… I’ve heard 66m years for my entire life; but numbers get rounded to 5s and 0s for ease of calculation.
oh get off your high horses already
I assure you officer, my horse is completely sober.
*Horse, joint in mouth* “Does anyone have a light? . . . Bad time?”
Stoned-cold sober, heh heh
fr, joyce is just right about this one
Dinah is never going to be Joyce’s friend, is she?
The last time they interacted, Joyce said that she would try to improve with Dina, in fact, in the end they shared a smile as a sign of agreement.
And I would argue that this interaction WAS Joyce trying to be better. She knew her reasoning was potentially offensive, and made an effort to make it as impersonal and objective as possible to try and soften the blow. Speaking from experience, when you know you’re not going to be able to sell a lie or deflection, it’s better to just rip the bandaid off and say the thing you know they won’t like, and try to be as kind as you can possibly figure out how to be.
I agree. Joyce was trying. But she went way overboard in her assurances and just became irritating about it. But she’s definitely trying.
And failing.
Sucking at something is the first step to being good at something. There is no journey without the first steps, even if you mostly stumble and fall when you begin.
Yeah, this is just the equivalent to “he uses they/them pronouns”. She’s very clearly trying to be sensitive about a topic that’s touchy for Dina. She’s just terrible at it lol, always has been always will be. Some people are clumsy and trip on their first few steps, but they’re still determined to make it to the finish line
i mean other than being actively hostile they don’t rly need to be each other’s friends or anything even if becky is still one of joyce’s best friends but hopefully they can reach an understanding.
but i don’t see them voluntarily hanging out one on one versus just group outings or so
I think they could eventually be friends, or at least on friendly terms.
It will take some time to get to that point, not just because Joyce has some serious unlearning to do, but also because Dina herself is coming into her own as an adult as well.
Yep. That’s exactly how arguments work. Nailed it Joyce.
I think i’d still be irritated in the moment but would also appreciate joyce’s explanation of things, but wonder how many ppl would take it as a ‘challenge’ tho other than it being a ‘youthful mistake’ or so, even with a group of friends as part of the experience once, doesn’t rly seem worth it to just be dumb and drunk (esp when you can do dumb fun things together sober XD)
It’s impressive how fast Joyce is digging this hole
She should use these digging skills to make a tunnel through the massive snow pile instead
She’ll hollow the thing out in 5 minutes.
I mean she’s not wrong, exactly.
She’s literally not wrong- Dina is very frequently mistaken as much younger and we do not see her express any interest in doing what they did to get into said bar (makeup and clothes wise)
Also becky 100% would have blown it on her own tbf
Yeah, Becky seems like she’d be the *worst* kind of bad liar, the kind that can’t help but make leading statements with an “I know something you don’t know” tone of voice, as a professional liar (magician) it is always *incredibly* painful to encounter. My brother is like that, my former best friend was like that, but like, seriously, how hard is it to just treat the lie as though it’s reality so you can sell it with a straight face? You don’t need to believe it’s true, just operate *as though* it were true and no signs of deception get through, it’s genuinely not difficult.
Oh come on, we all know Dina can just magically appear in the bar without ever actually going through the door. Girl’s got offscreen Nightcrawler powers.
Fair point.
Not that she knows it, but the bouncer wasn’t checking any ids.
Given how close the university is that they were able to get there by walking distance, i’m surprised they wouldnt be double checking everyone just to be safe unless it’s just like “the actual uni students old enough to drink legally come more than ppl trying to sneak in”
If I remember correctly, didn’t they have (fake) hand-stamps?
I’m not sure how exactly it worked, but my assumption is that the bouncer would have seen the stamps, believed the stamps were legitimate, and thought “I have already checked these people when they got stamped” and just let them in.
They went in with the group of presumably-older-enough ladies and got their hands stamped by the bouncer.
The stamps let the bartender serve them, since they’d obviously been checked by the bouncer.
Maybe I misunderstood.
Back when I went to university, there would sometimes be bars or parties that would stamp your hand when you entered. That way if you left for some reason (to go smoke, or whatever) you could come back and they would know you had already paid the cover charge, checked for ID, etc..
I assumed they had done something like that in the comic, since they showed their hand stamps several strips before they actually ordered anything from the bartender..
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/03-trystin-in-the-wind/dont-be-suspicious/
But that the panel after they got by the bouncer, presumably getting their hand stamped by him. Showing it off to each other because they were excited to have pulled it off.
To be fair, they *did* sneak in with a group of girls that were (supposedly) *obviously* over 21. Sure, bars are supposed to card anyone who looks younger than 35 (if I’m remembering the training course I had to take made by the Indiana state government to get certified to handle alcohol here correctly), just in case, and some in the area will just card everybody regardless as a matter of policy, but if a bouncer has been particularly busy I could totally see one just waving a group through, especially if said bouncer doesn’t actually care (which is definitely the case with some of them). It’s also possible that the bouncer knew one of the girls in the group, and was like “well, I *know* that she is 23, and she said she was going out with her fellow grad students, so everyone in the group must be of similar ages and thus old enough, no need to bother them with ID checks”. Still against the rules, but a common enough thing.
There has to be a better way of saying it though. Not that my autistic ass can puzzle out the way of acknowledging the fact that it’s simply true there’s no way a bouncer or bartender is going to buy that Dina is 21 without sounding like I’m personally infantalizing her.
The art isn’t realistic enough to be entirely sure but my impression is that Dina is shorter than average for her age, not very well endowed, and for lack of a better term has “a baby face”. Even if you take her out of the clothing she prefers and put her in an evening gown and impeccable makeup there’s a very high chance the bouncer/bartender would assume she’s a twelve or thirteen year old trying to trick them. And that is something Dina is likely going to have to deal with until she starts getting visible grey hairs at least.
There has got to be a way to acknowledge the fact that others will treat her as much younger than she actually is without making it seem like you’re treating her as younger than she actually is. And like I said I don’t know what that way is but having actually treated her as if she’s younger than she actually is in the past is absolutely not helping Joyce here.
There isn’t a good way to say it, Joyce kinda fumbled it here, but her basic strategy really is the best one available. When the answer to a question is something you *know* the other person won’t like to hear, but you know you won’t be able to sell a lie or deflection, the best option is to just be honest, acknowledge that the reality sucks, and make it clear it’s not a personal attack, just an objective observation. Joyce is trying to do that, but she’s putting too much emphasis on “don’t get mad at me” and not enough on empathy. Sometimes you can’t avoid hurting someone’s feelings, so instead of trying to, you’re better off doing your best to soften the blow as much as possible and then focus on helping them feel better again afterward.
I’d probably try to make a conversational opening for Dina to say it herself. Still unpleasant for her, but maybe easier to accept?
I mean if I was Joyce I probably woulda just said “the more of us there were, the greater our risk of failure”
Also if I was Joyce I’d make out with Joe a whole bunch.
Is that all you would do…?
I agree with all of this ^^^^
When she’s 35 and still being carded, Dina will be envied by her friends. Which doesn’t help her now, admittedly.
And this is how Dina is representative of David “baby face” Willis! He got carded for alcohol not too long ago!
As someone who looks very young, that’s not really encouraging actually. It just means our autonomy and authority will be doubted for longer. I don’t care so much about bars or alcohol, because I rarely drink them. But when I got confused for a middle schooler when I was a teacher, or an administrator at the college I worked at kept telling people how amusing it was that I looked like a student, I don’t care who envies me because they feel old.
Plus, there’s no guarantee of continuing to look young. I gained weight in my mid 30s and now it’s very rare for people to assume I’m younger.
Middle aged and while I am glad I still shock people at looking 10 years younger, it gains me little as a ND woman/person – I will still generally be overlooked for dating opportunities, and in my professional life I am still prone to being talked down to or underestimated.
So yeah, it’s nice, but not an advantage.
Yeah, the whole, “not being taken seriously as a working professional and adult” part is a struggle and it doesn’t really make you feel great to have people basically dismiss that struggle.
might depend on where you go to/how heavy the asian population in the city is, idk how strict bars are but some grocery stores maybe ppl wouldn’t care if they’re paid min wage, idk if someone will go up and card you if ur doing self checkout but i mean if ur casually buying alcohol it’s prolly less risk than showing up to the bar and leaving inebriated
altho being carded seems like a mild inconvenience rather than a big issue, other than just like not having a drivers license (but even if you never learn to drive, yo ucan still get a ‘state id’)
Mild inconveniences snowball into big issues when they’re consistently happening.
I’ve never bought alcohol so I don’t know how common this is, but I’m fairly certain I’ve seen self-checkouts have people scan their ID so the machine can verify you’re of age.
My state is stingy about liquor licenses, so our big-box and grocery stores generally don’t carry anything but O’Doul’s and mixers. You have to go to a convenience store or packie, and I’ve never seen self checkout at one of those.
I’ve had the self checkout lock itself down and call for an attendant when I’ve bought spray paint and starting fluid, though.
To get certified to handle alcohol professionally in the state of Indiana you have to go through a digital training course where they instruct you to card everyone who looks younger than 35, so if the bouncers are doing their jobs correctly, they should be carding *most* of the people in this hypothetical group of 35 year old women, or at least around half, since what are the odds that Dina would be the only one to look even slightly younger than their age?
There are some bars where they just check everybody’s ID as a matter of policy anyway. I deliver alcohol for a living and that’s our policy, I’m not even *able* to exercise judgement if I want to, since I’m required to scan your ID into the app in order to complete the order on my end and I could get fired if I don’t. You could be four thousand and seven years old and look every day of your age and I’d still have to card you. I also can’t accept expired IDs for… some reason. This has caused issues with older people on a number of occasions because they think it’s stupid to be carded when they’re visibly several decades over 21, and they think it’s stupid that I can’t give them alcohol because their driver’s license needs to be renewed, but I literally have no choice. There are a couple bars in town that have similar policies, although since they have a person doing the checks instead of a phone app they’re able to be reasonable about things like expired IDs.
That’s really the only reliable way to do it: check everyone. It’s also kinder, in a way, since it (slightly) inconveniences everyone equally.
“…looks younger than 35….” What does that look like? I couldn’t describe it. There were a couple of kids in my high school who could’ve passed for 35, visually at least.
I was dating an older woman (11 yrs) and was once mistaken for her son.
I was later mistaken for being the son of my late wife (9 yrs).
I have now, some number of years later, aged out of being cougar bait.
I have been buying alcohol since I was 17 and got my first senior discount I didn’t request when I was 37. Not getting carded was cool, getting free stuff for getting old was less so (free coffee for being over 55), discounts for travel when buying bus tickets was good even though my wife was the only one who qualified (she’s 5 years older than I am). Yeah, I’ve never been cougar bait but I have been pursued by “Grandpa chasers” since my mid-40s.
All I am comfortable with saying is: Oof.
Oofist!!!
Dumbing of Age Book 14: I’ve Anticipated and Addressed All Your Grievances, and So You Can’t Get Mad at Me
Dangit, ninja’d >_<
Damn, that’s good.
but what if they gave Dina a grad school text book, because those are often used to get into bars.
Dina’s smart enough to pass as a grad student. It could maybe work
Bouncer: Damn, it’s amazing you got into grad school at 13. Still not gettin’ in.
Now I’m wondering if Liz over at QC, who was in grad school at that age, ever tried that.
Huh. Will file that information away, in case it might prove useful later.
Somehow.
Despite my being several years too old for it to matter.
…it’s the principle of the thing.
I mean, they might get some side eye/looked down upon, but even if they didn’t drink, i wouldn’t be surprised if there were some kids brought to bars by their parents
if only so they could be the ‘designated driver’ or keep an eye on them/reverse parenting lol
tho, other than joining the group i can imagine dina being fine wit hbeing the ‘sober’ one for the night and just observing how everyone is drunk lol
Unfortunately that doesn’t fly in Indiana, even if the kid doesn’t drink you can’t legally enter a bar under the age of 21. There are *some* exceptions for things like employment, for instance I went to high school with a girl who played bass in a local rock band that was moderately popular in the area, and when they’d have gigs at bars she was allowed to go in, but there was like paperwork to fill out, she was required to have a legal guardian on the premises, and she was only allowed to enter and exit through the employee entrance and not the front where the customers came and went. I think she was also restricted to where in the bar she was allowed to go, like there was one table next to the stage that would be labelled as “no alcohol” or something and that was the only place she was allowed to sit. If I’m remembering correctly, I haven’t spoken to her since I graduated a decade ago, and I wasn’t really involved in any of that, we just sat next to each other in latin class for a semester and I learned of this because she was bragging that she did her homework in a bar the night before one time. But speaking as someone certified to serve alcohol in Indiana, yeah, they can’t legally let a minor into the bar under most circumstances, even if they were to employ some kind of marking system to label them as “do not serve alcohol” the way some states allow.
Another exception is dry events, I recall in the 4th grade I went to a regional chess tournament that was hosted at a bar here called “The Bishop” (fun fact, The Bishop appears to be the model Willis used for the bar that Joyce and Dorothy snuck into), they had all the alcohol locked up so there was no chance of the (many) minors on the premises sneaking any, it wasn’t even visible anywhere. In fact, I had no idea it was a bar until several years later.
Wait, children aren’t allowed in to bars in Indiana? Even during the day?
(I’m guessing this is going to be an American thing and a pub vs bar distinction)
Maybe an Indiana thing. I spent waaaaaaaay more time in bars as a small child in an undisclosed part of the US than I ever have as an adult pushing forty.
Which admittedly isn’t hard, since I don’t think I’ve ever set foot in one as an adult, but it’s still true.
Not just Indiana, I once got ditched in New Orleans on Bourbon Street because my mom went into a bar without me and they wouldn’t even let me in to look for her. Nor would they have anyone inside look for her.
In Texas if you have your parent with you, you can go damn near anywhere and do pretty much anything as long as they okay it and it’s not against a personal company policy. Drinking included.
As a Texas resident can confirm that the only thing you can’t do in a bar as a minor is actually buy the alcohol even if you use your parent’s card. When your parents bring you in you can drink anything served to the table, some places don’t let minors order, others don’t care as long as the adult(s) pay for it.
If there is a separate non-bar section (like in a “bar and grill”) children can be seated there, but there were several instances when I was in high school and hanging out with my adult friends where I would have to eat alone because they all decided to sit in the bar section of a restaurant and I was the only minor. I’m not sure if the law makes a distinction between a “bar” and a “pub” here, as most pubs have bars in them, but get treated more like bars than restaurants with bar sections, then there are bars that are definitely not “pubs” but still are called “pub” on their signage, and then there are a couple that are neither a bar nor a pub but still call themselves a pub on their signs, so I don’t think the term “pub” actually has an official definition various establishments are expected to follow. There’s also at least one saloon that definitely doesn’t fit the definition of a saloon here.
Even though it wasn’t Joyce’s real reason for not inviting Becky (that Joyce needed to get Dotty alone and drunk to find out what was wrong), I think Joyce has a point. It’s pretty unlikely for Dina to have passed as 21. If Dina got in it would only be because of her ninja skills and not because anyone believed she was 21.
they could ask jen to get them a fake id but it’d be easier to just ask some older students to buy them a six pack and have a more private in dorm party, RA/rules aside
Also, fake IDs take time to make.
Even if Dina pulled it off, Becky probably would’ve blown their cover at some point.
Every time Dina is in front of her, Joyce cannot be impeccable with her words. And to think that Joyce herself said that she would try to improve with her.
And those faces of obvious disappointment say it.
Smooth, Joyce. Smooth.
about as smooth as granola
Granola can be smooth.
You just need a powerful enough blender.
a horrifying but correct assertion!
Oh look, my favorite type of interaction.
Joyce and Dina not getting along for the fortieth fucking time.
Yaaay.
You’re taking this well.
Thank you! I aspire to.
You forgot to add to the count of something not focusing on Becky exclusively and her being upset by it. She’s almost as insufferable as Carla in that regard.
Becky needs to get the hell over herself. This is not a legit reason to be upset.
I don’t want them to break up but it would make for entertaining drama for some ppl if they did all go together, becky gets drunk and more or less admits she still loves joyce in front of dina to see what the fallout would be the following week haha
Dina knows she’s a rebound, her and Sarah had a conversation about that.
But that was a long time ago. Since then, Becky lost her father. They lost their V cards to eachother. “Lesbian wives have been confirmed!”
I think Becky has some processing to do WRT Joyce, but e.g. doesn’t seem to have noticed the “sexy cleavage sweater vest outfit” that had Sarah cringing a bit. Sapphic crushes can get confusing (at least for some women, at least sometimes) with “do I want to be you, or be with you?” – and they have real, sincere friendship there too…
As kids, Joyce was the one with two loving parents who really “were” a cohesive unit. She was the one who the community believed would succeed – she got widespread approval and support. She was the one who could “cope” with the temptations of a secular college.
I hope Mrs McIntyre made her feel like a failure, but in the eyes of most, Becky was a mess whose friendship with Joyce was probably seen as her most redeeming feature. She probably got beaten with wooden spoons more than most, and this was basically common knowledge.
Her friend, with the supportive, loving parents, whose happy smile wasn’t hiding pain, who believed as devoutly as she did and could name chapters verse and draw you a Picture Bible accurate depiction to back up any religious argument, and who tried to keep her out of too much trouble, and whose house she could escape to and her dad would be OK with it..? Sure, she was pretty and they had fun together and she could tease her (autocorrect changed that to “taste”… Pretty sure that didn’t happen o.O) and make her pull the BEST horrified faces… But did she really want to be with her? Or did she want to be her?
Dina… She decided she wanted to be a scientist after meeting her, but the delineation is a bit clearer. Dina, I think she wants to be with.
(You can also see this very much in Joyce’s plausibly crush-coded friendships. Wanting to play dress-up with Sal, and brush her hair, and borrow her clothes. She straight up TOLD Dorothy she wants to be her and Joe was somewhat startled this is how she defines love.)
*I hope Mrs McIntyre DIDN’T make her feel like a failure!!! OMG! 🫣😱😳
Don’t worry; that instantly read like there was a word missing.
Becky is for sure still not completely over Joyce.
Even if she’s completely in love with Dina, she has not gotten over Joyce.
About the Bar thing yeah, she really has no legit reason. But she did just watch her girlfriend get upset because of something Joyce said, and even though Joyce is correct, that doesn’t mean Becky can’t be upset at Joyce for saying it like she did.
Joyce is not good at talking, and she does not know how to talk to Dina (To be fair she very rarely is even in the same room as her, and if she was, she wouldn’t know because Dina has raptor stealth on half the time.), and to be fair, most people don’t know how to interact with people on the spectrum. I am on the spectrum and I have problems talking to other people on the spectrum (Its a VERY big spectrum).
However well meaning Joyce meant it or how she wanted it to be taken, that doesn’t change the fact that what she said was insensitive and made Dina feel left out, and to her meant that her different way of functioning has caused her Girlfriend to be left out to, doubling down on the hurt.
I 100% agree with this. I’m not sure it’s a valid reason for Becky to be upset last strip, when it happens in the final panel of this strip.
It doesn’t actually work like that, Joyce.
That can be applied to almost all Joyce’s experiences in this webcomic…
It’s the comic’s unwritten motto.
yeah, it’s good to have reasoning but an over-explanation seems like it might be more offensive, but it would’ve been better to just be like “i wanted to go out drinking with dorothy specifically bc i’ve been worried about how she’s been acting”
understable have a nice day
As someone similarly affected (constantly mistaken as much younger than I am), god it’s infuriating. And everyone expects you to be grateful and “oh but you’ll miss it when you’re younger!!” No, no I won’t, I thought I could stop worrying about certain things (that start with p and in end “ile”) when I hit 18/20, and YET I got mistaken as under 18 last year, literally on my 31st birthday.
And before you go “how’s it that bad” think, just think, about how you’d feel if EVERYONE constantly thought you were an 18 year old. At 30. It’s not as glamourous as you’d think.
Fully agree. Especially in professional contexts. Or any situation where I need to be taken seriously. And no, I don’t get any “benefits” now that I’m older, because I gained weight and apparently that means I don’t look very young anymore. Personally though, I’m just thankful that I’m consistently treated as an adult now. I don’t care if people think I’m old and fat, at least they start our interactions with the assumption that I make my own decisions, and they don’t need to contact my parents.
I think it’d only be good if you wanted to stay/look young but other than being treated nicer at like work b/c they think its ur first job, but wouldn’t be surprised if presentation helps too, i wouldn’t be surprised if there was some ‘aging’ makeup versus just dressing nicer but it’s rare to see the opposite happens, or maybe ppl are just impressed b/c some white ppl age faster than others/some americans, i’ve seen some guys mid 20s with like a beer gut and going grey but genes aside i guess depends on how ppl take care of themselves, but it does make me think of that one story where some underage girl used covid to wear a mask and do some ‘granny makeup’ to buy beer
Had a friend from college many years who was very petite, had amazing skin, and had very rosy chubby cheeks. She did a lot of frustrated stomping ar being treated like an infant.
As a fellow short slight person, we did a lot of knowing eye rolls at each other when people treated her like crap.
I’m on the opposite side of this coin- people have told me that I look older than my actual age (by anywhere from 5-15 years) for a decade. I have a brother who’s 10 years older than I am, and *many* people have asked if I am older than him. It might not be the most pleasing thing to be identified as being much younger than your age… But it absolutely sucks to constantly be identified as much older than your age.
It’s more or less equivalent to a constant refrain of “you look tired and ugly.” As for dating success…. Well, there isn’t any.
Dina leaves to acquire a bar.
imagine her being the most able to hold her liquor lol
I give credit Joyce leads with “mistaken.”
Though also what precisely was the “keg stand” promise? Dorothy and Joyce never did a “keg stand,” they did a “whiskey flight.”
that’s the joke, they don’t know what a keg stand is, they’re guessing. as becky says, they promised each other at the beginning of the semester to “learn what it is without havin’ to google it”: https://www.dumbingofage.com/andwereback/
Well, technically only Becky promised.
couple years back i went to get a haircut and the stylist was making conversation, as you do, and she asked what grade i was in. i said oh, i actually graduated recently. and she said oh, really! so you’ll be heading into high school next year, or…?
the thing i had just graduated from was college. and gang, i had not even finished in four years.
guess it can be a social place but i never rly make small talk with ppl/try to make interactions quick, tho up to a certain point i can imagine a 25 year old still being mistaken as like an 18 year old versus the “40 year olds playing teenagers as actors” (tho at least it’s not as awkward as “I graduated high school over a decade ago but i didn’t go to college and haven’t done anything with my life since)
after a certain point unless you have really bad genes/don’t take care of your health i think most ppl more or less do stop aging/maybe decade by decade versus every 2-3 years
I don’t think she’s wrong, but god. Joyce really would benefit from knowing how to perform a white lie. Like, she is absolutely terrible at it, and thus avoids it knowing this, but still. There are a lot of valid reasons she could have pointed to, like if she didn’t want to have more potential points of failure by involving more people in the scheme, or didn’t want to ask Becky to take on that risk of being found out, etc etc, but I get that it isn’t what Joyce’s actual issue was, and thus she is unable to pretend it is with her current skillset.
And it seems that a better interaction with Dina will be a long road for Joyce
Or “something is bothering Dorothy. She was unravelling before my eyes. I thought she’d be more likely to tell me about it if we were alone [and a little drunk]. It was a snap decision in an emergency.”
I will admit that that takes a level of self-awareness of which I’m still not consistently capable.
This is kind of a white lie though.
She’s covering for not wanting to talk about her concern for Dorothy publicly, which is valid and this has deflected from it well. Just into other dangerous directions.
Betrayal, and dissing her girl? how dare!
Joyce, are you forgetting Dina’s superpower of just being able to pass largely unnoticed?
this is exactly what i was thinking
No, I don’t think she’s angry with you, Joyce. She’s upset with reality. If I was in her position, and knowing how my own autism is, I’d be going, “…Yeah, I’ll always be seen as a kid… Yeah… :<"
other than the sneaking past by ppl, i wonder if it’d work if she did just stare down a bouncer and just get a ‘pass’ without needing to dress up/put on makeup like joyce
tho i wonder how often it has the opposite effect, other than a pro makeup artist or or just a lot of practice, since makeup does make you look younger or skin smoother depending on the products you use, might not always help you look more ‘mature’. or maybe the opposite of ‘trying too hard to look older’, i don’t rly like red lipstick myself that much but other than it being messy/clown-y, even if i don’t put on a lot, sometimes when i wear lipstick it looks like an 11 year old who went through her moms makeup bag
It’s not just appearance, though. A lot of people would notice Dina’s intense interest in a topic that most find, at best, mildly diverting, and perceive it as more appropriate to 12 than to 18.
But I do think Dina is thinking in terms of apperance just now. She’s going to disappear for a few strips and show up with a new look, well crafted, and her friends will be dumbfounded. If she goes for “businesslike” people may start mistaking her for a professor of paleontology.
us asians are babyfaced after all
i’m surprised jen got a comment about having ‘crows feet’ or so. idk if it was from heavy makeup usage or just alcohol aging you faster or so considering it doesn’t show on her body otherwise lol
Becky thought before it was cute when Joyce is being… Joyce.
Now she gets to see the impact Joyce’s behaviour has on other people, good and bad.
She’s not wrong, but she is saying it the wrong way.
Now that Joyce knows she’s autistic, she might benefit from a neurodivergent therapist (not just one that focuses on neurodivergence, but one that actually is). Cause this definitely sounds like the way I would over-correct before I learned that I’m autistic. I’d say something, immediately clock that it was not the right thing to say and then keep talking to make things either worse or weirder. Therapy has helped me so much with communication and navigating a neurotypical world.
I think people have to remember that this kind of thing with Dina isn’t just “she looks young”, last time Joyce brought it up she said that Dina also ACTS like she’s 12. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/safe-2/
Dina’s not just upset at being told she looks young, it’s because Joyce has already made it clear she thinks Dina acts like a 12 year old.
That was a long time ago. I don’t think it’s how Joyce still feels at all.
Probably not but she hasn’t verbalized as much and I think it’s clear that Dina in this strip is hearing Joyce say “Dina doesn’t look her age” and thinking right back to that moment.
Maybe not, but bear in mind that an actual 12-year-old also assumed Dina was 12. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/rapport/
At least the 12 year old is a 12 year old. I had a 7 year old assume I was “a mommy” just because I’m an adult. Riley’s a kid. Joyce isn’t a kid.
Also, just gonna say the quiet part out loud, pretty sure the things that lead to people assuming Dina “acts” like she’s twelve are things related to the fact that she’s likely autistic. Enjoying cereal (literally why she and Riley connected in the above), her interest in dinosaurs. She has comfort foods and special interests. Other people take these things and assume she’s “acting like a child” even though she is definitely not a child. It’s not childish to have comfort foods. It isn’t childish to enjoy dinosaurs. So. You know. I’m just saying, the people in the comments section here should probably think a little bit more before just nodding along and going “yeah yeah, Dina doesn’t look her age at all, Joyce is right” because there is an implication wrapped up in there that is. Not great.
I assume most commenters think she looks younger than 19 because it has been mentioned by multiple characters.
And while loving dinosaurs, wearing novelty hats, and eating cereal everyday is something many people of all ages do, it is more associated with children. As other characters got to know Dina better they treated her like a peer.
Yeah nothing says “treated like a peer” quite like being told “I didn’t invite your girlfriend to go drinking because she probably would invite you and you can’t pass for being 21 or over”.
I get you are being sarcastic but yeah, that is being treated like a peer.
I mean, sure, Joyce said it awkwardly but acknowledging someone probably can’t pass as older than they are is fine. Like, I’m a short (shorter than Dina if the fan wiki is correct), baby faced adult that likes cartoons and eating cereal everyday. It’s all good.
It’s good for you. Cool beans.
She’s also real short. Which doesn’t help.
Not only did the 12 year old assume that, but Dina didn’t read her as a kid, instead taking her as a peer.
Dina has changed her behavior a lot since then
In comic time it’s technically only a few months.
Sometimes it’s insane to realise that the entire comic has been going for less than a year.
Technically less than 5 months, they’re sometime in January of the school year that started in late August.
man I know that mood where you have a point but there’s a valid problem with it but there’s a valid problem with that and everyone seems to be mad that you said anything at all like there was a secret better way to address a situation and you just want to die or kill everyone, depends on the moment, and nobody is filling you in on what you should’ve done
shit sucks
Joyce pretty clearly has a point and has difficulties expressing it because she’s autistic and Dina is irritated because she’s fed up with it and Becky is like “be nice to my girlfriend” but this is not a great situation for anyone.
yeah this sucks for everyone involved
Oh thank goodness that pre-winning arguments is effective at preventing them before they start. And everyone is so good at going along with it!
Anyone who is saying Joyce has a point is missing the real point: If she resepected Dinah (or Becky) at all she could have ASKED and been HONEST and given them the credit for friendship, maturity to work with her.
Dinah may well have said “Going out drinking sounds awful, I will stay in and play on the Nintendo” or she may have, as someone suggested, dressed up and proved Joyce wrong.
Joyce did not give her a chance, or any autonomy. She ASSUMED and made a decision for her. She has shown a lack of trust in Becky and Dinah, and treated them like they are too stupid to cooperate or make rational decisions the way she can.
Agreed, whether Dina “really looks her age” or not, in the end it’s just a silly excuse when the truth is that she just didn’t want Becky and Dina to go. Which is fine! Joyce can do things without them! But the least she could do is respect them when she tells them why she didn’t want to invite them and this kind of response is… not so great. I’d be pissed off too if my best friend told me “well I didn’t invite you to party with me cause you might bring your girlfriend and she couldn’t pass for being over 21”. That opens up a big can of worms for a fight, honestly.
Sure, but the honest reason is “I wanted to make it all about Dorothy because she’s spiralling”, and I feel like maybe you don’t just blurt that out without checking with Dorothy.
You also don’t just blurt whatever this is out, of course, so I dunno what the right answer is.
Right. Keeping the conversation from getting to the actual reason is important and this was successful at that.
Just not good on its own terms.
Hmm. I think what Joyce is saying here is Not Good, but I’m not ready to embrace “every time you don’t invite someone to something, you’re robbing them of their autonomy” either.
Does it also apply to Joyce not inviting Sarah? Or Sal?
Now, if you want to talk about Joyce robbing Dina of her autonomy by telling her “this is how your side of the argument would go and I’ve already refuted it”, I’m totally behind that.
Dina does canonically look, and dress, young. Dina is being a little sensitive but Joyce did stick her foot in her mouth explaining though.
However a more true but still respectful explanation- “I just wanted to spend some time with Dorothy” probably wouldn’t make Becky less mad.
I don’t really see how Dina dresses younger than the rest of the cast. Aside from the very few times she’s worn that one dinosaur hoodie. Is it because she’s not showing cleavage?
She’s changed a bit now, but at the beginning the comic she seemed to favour fairly shapeless t-shirts and big-ish shorts. Combine that with her not being especially curvey and that translated to “childish dressing” for a lot of people.
Novelty animal hats are definitely more of a “small child” or “adult on vacation at a theme park” vibe too.
She’s being sensitive because she’s been treated like this time and time again. It’s tiring.
In this case, she’s made an agreement with Becky to get drunk with her, apprently?
But the whole point of the outing was to get Dorothy to loosen up and talk about her spiraling. She can’t talk about *that*, and she can’t say “I wanted to spend time with Dorothy” because then it would inflame Becky’s constantly lingering sense of insecurity and losing Joyce as a friend.
So…what does she say exactly? I don’t really blame Joyce for going for “if I invited you, you’d invite Dina, and Dina’s presence might have messed it all up” then walking into a social fumble where she accidentally reinforces Dina’s infantilization.
She could have asked Dorothy if she was ok with Becky coming along. I think it took Amber being there to finally get the information from Dorothy anyway, and there’s a good chance if Becky was there and knew something was up she’d have helped reveal the truth too.
She could have asked, but whether Dorothy’s okay with it or not, there’s still a good chance it’d derail the actual mission.
It would also involve asking Dorothy if she was okay with Joyce talking to Becky about Joyce’s concerns over Dorothy spiraling.
A) she’s done absolutely nothing to Dina’s autonomy. She literally just didn’t invite them for drinks.
B) this is obviously an excuse that Joyce is drumming up to avoid telling Becky the truth out of respect for Dorothy’s privacy, not an actual reflection of how she feels about Dina.
C) again, she literally just didn’t invite them for drinks. It has nothing to do with how much she respects them. She’s not obligated to include Becky in everything, or anything, that she does.
Agreed and
D) this situation is all because of Becky’s jealousy and possessiveness putting Joyce on the spot
I’m basing this on the words that came out of her mouth in this moment, that have led to Dina storming off, not the original decision and what we imagine was or was not in Joyce’s head at that moment.
If she genuinely didn’t give an invite because “Dina can’t pass as older” it is in fact removing Dina from the conversation and making that call for her, like an adult going over a child’s head. Very belittling and yes, robbing of autonomy.
But if it’s her trip at risk she can determine what risk she is accepting via invitation. Not defending Joyce, but your allowed to decide who to invite based on if it will accomplish goals.
I question whether Joyce even thought of Becky or Dina at the time. It was not a social occasion, but an intervention.
Now she’s been reminded of a promise that she’s seemingly broken, and has about 800 milliseconds to come up with a plausible excuse. I’d probably just freeze up until people stop talking and I have time to think.
This age stuff is also interesting for me too because I don’t usually look my age and my mom was the same way. There’s a two year age gap between my parents and when they were in their twenties and dating, she said whenever she was out with my dad, people would shoot daggers at my father because pre-pregnant, my mom was short and petite so people thought she was way younger than she actually was.
This could all have been avoided if Joyce stopped enabling Becky’s repeated and constant claims of being entitled to her time.
Dig up, stupid!
Again Joyce is stuck between a rock and a hard place because of Beckys jealousy and possessiveness
I hope Dina calls Becky out on her, quite frankly, shitty and disrespectful behaviour
But probably won’t
My sister in Christ, you’re still virgin, and Dina’s not.
I am much more certain than not that Joyce is making up an excuse in the moment, and I think Dina is more hurt by the blatant lie of it than by any specific thing Joyce said. If Joyce ACTUALLY had thought this through beforehand, that might have made it less hurtful in Dina’s mind.
That’s not really a problem though? Joyce was caught up in the moment and didn’t think of contacting Becky. Joyce never said this is the reason why she didn’t, but this is a valid reason why she wouldn’t have thought to. It doesn’t seem like something Dina would be bothered by.
She’s at least implying now that this is the reason she didn’t.
I like Becky, but I don’t think it would have flown as a valid reason for Becky. And Joyce knows that. Which is why she’s flailing so hard here, she’s on eggshells because 99% of anything she could say won’t be taken as a valid excuse by Becky, she apparently can’t explain the actual situation for some reason, and so she tries to grab the first semi-plausible sounding thing that pops into her head.
Like, if Becky didn’t do this every time Joyce did anything, this convo would’ve gone a lot differently. Tbh I think Becky and Joyce should probably cool it on their friendship, they’re kinda going two different directions and that’s okay, but Becky kinda puts way too much on Joyce (and Joyce does her own things too that are Very Bad for this friendship dgmw, but I’m just focusing on Becky rn because she started the convo with intent to argue).
Oh, Joyce, you old so-and-so
I rarely comment but this seems like a good time. Joyce, your arguments should have gone as follows (please note I’m not taking Becky’s side):
First- it was a snap decision so there wasn’t time to include everyone I wanted.
Second- Dorothy was in a very bad spot and wasn’t opening up so I was more focused on getting her into a spot where she could more so than making this a social outing.
Third- (she makes this one..poorly) I would never have thought to invite you without inviting Dina and the more of us there were the more likely we would have been caught. And no offense, Dina you do routinely get mistaken for someone barely out of middle school which would have made it even harder.
Fourth- You, Becky, are an bad enough liar with low enough impulse control who would have gotten any with an inkling of suspicion to pook hard enough to get us kicked out thus ruining the plan. Especially sine you want to yell about it here.
And on a personal note from myself and not Joyce: Fuck off Becky. Friend or not she literally owes you nothing, you’re not entitled to her time or Friendship get off your crush addled high horse.
Except she doesn’t want to (and probably shouldn’t) talk about Dorothy being in a bad spot, which kind of derails the whole thing.
And Becky is a far better liar than Joyce is, even if she covers it up with a loud obnoxious persona
Those would not have been bad arguments to make.
But, Joyce was under pressure (I’m sure she didn’t expect to be confronted by Becky like that), and would have had to think fast to come up with, well, any of those excuses. And when panic/adrenaline hit, you don’t often come up with good ideas
I can’t decide whether Dina’s expression is “I’m so tired of this” or “that’s the last straw — I’m going to do something about this.”
She’s going to use her “Asians never age” stereotype power, and her mothers ID to go and buy a keg for Becky.
It’s amazing how expressive you made that last panel for Dina ~ I’m sure some of it is me using context to infer things, but the way her expression shifted to be a little more dead-eyed, the way her posture looks like she’s suddenly weighed down, it’s very relatable for me.
From Becky overreacting to Joyce stepping on a rake. That’s the good stuff
A prior promise from Joyce that this is something they’d do together improves Becky’s position. She’s still not handling it well, but there’s more justification for her being upset than Joyce not just automatically including her in all social activities.
While this does feel kinda mean, from a strategic perspective she’s totally right, if you have 18 year olds that are trying to pass as 21 you don’t want anything to raise suspicions, and unfortunately a 21 year old that looks like she’s 18 would fuck up the bag for all of them 😭
I mean, it’s not like that promise is broken. They hadn’t done a keg stand yet
I’m surprised how many people think Joyce didn’t say anything wrong. As a fellow sufferer of foot-in-mouth disease, I usually sympathize hard with that part, but for me it’s weird that she’s making it about Dina in the first place.
I have no memory of inviting Becky crossing Joyce’s mind, with or without Dina. She certainly hung out with Dorothy alone while Dorothy was dating other people. Even if that was genuinely the reason, it’s understandable that Dina wouldn’t love hearing her girlfriend being told that choosing to date her means her best friend excluding her from things that are important to her.
It’s also fair to want to do things that aren’t universally accessible.
There are plenty of times when a friend is welcome to join where hanging out with them specifically isn’t the point of those specific plans. But if you are disabled, you find out just how often hanging out with you isn’t the point by how often accommodating you isn’t worth risking the plan. It’s not different from everyone else’s relationships except for the social niceties
that make it a lot less blunt and a lot less frequently confronted point-blank for typical people. It still hurts when it happens, even if you get that you’re not the main character all the time.
Dina isn’t the main character to anyone but Becky, and she made friends, but they are mostly Becky’s friends, and they just told her ththat not only did it not matter that she be included, but now she gets to watch someone she loves being excluded by the other person SHE relies on to treat her like a main character.
Joyce said something that could be and turned out to be hurtful, but accidentally hurting people is a normal part of life and I don’t think people should be told off for saying something wrong in an ethical sense, that’s too harsh. It was hurtful, unwise, lacked empathy, and a mistake, but not unethical. It is within the range things you’re allowed to say. And yes, saying things like that can lead to conflict, and yes that is a suboptimal situation, but it doesn’t mean you’re on the path to becoming evil, it just means you’re as complex as any other human interacting in a complex way with another complex human.
Conflicts are an unavoidable part of the kind of complex interactions that make socializing worth it, and calling any act that could cause a conflict wrong implies that we should just stop interacting with those people we do not yet understand well enough to perfectly predict at all time, which would be the death of society.
Honestly it just comes off as hypocritical because Joyce complained about being infantilized as well. Kind of a sucky move to do the same to another person as a way to get your friend off your back.
It’s astounding to me that multiple people are even defending Joyce.
I find the blind agreement with Joyce pretty frustrating too, especially when I’m doing my best to break down WHY Dina being infantilized like this is pretty shitty, since it’s caked in that good old ableism, only to get responses like “hmm well, dinosaurs are more associated with kids, and Dina isn’t showing off her curves, so she does look and act more childish, so she has no reason to be upset”.
for me it’s not that she didn’t say anything wrong – she definitely did and there were a lot of ways to avoid this problem
it’s that she’s not technically incorrect and that feels like the same thing before one opens their mouth
and I’m sympathising heavily with doing your best but still standing there finding yourself hated for what you thought was the best way to avoid that exact kind of moment and people are still looking at you so you keep talking because clearly they expect more but apparently not more of this, for some reason
I think a lot of people can sympathise with someone fucking up socially, I don’t know that it’s that weird
That’s really insulting. Wow. I don’t care if Joyce is right. She’s still infantilizing Dina by assuming she could never pass as 21. And even if she couldn’t, she would still probably be able to get in the bar by blending in. It’s not the same, but the method doesn’t matter, only the end result does. Fuck off with that “don’t blame me” bullcrap explanation. Especially since she HAS treated Dina differently before, due to perception of age.
We were doing so well too lol
5 bucks says Dina is off to brew her own moonshine and get shitfaced in front of them. That or she’ll just hit a store and bullshit her way into getting some liqueur.
Dina is secretly 22 years old and on her second degree.
She enjoyed palaeontology so much that she is doing it Twice!
Hmm auto-correct suggest palaeopathology… what is that… oh interesting
“Paleopathology encompasses the study of disease, both human and nonhuman, “
So dinosaur sicknesses. Awesome. That *would* be interesting.
I’m disappointed that Joyce seems to have accidentally trampled on Dina’s feelings here, because it feels like a bit of a regression in their relationship and it’s distracting from the bigger problem: Becky’s possessiveness.
The feelings in this strip are many and conflicting.
For one, it’s understandable to feel sympathy for Joyce, as she legitimately didn’t intend to offend Dina, and you sorta want to back her up because it kinda would be hard for Dina to pass as 21, her young-looking face and height being at least two factors.
However, it can also be said that defending Joyce is wrong, because whether or not she intended to offend Dina or not, she still left her and Becky out of going for drinks.
However, it can also be said that she was not obligated to ask Becky and Dina to go out for drinks. She went with just Dorothy because she noticed that there was something wrong with one of her close college friends and she wanted to do something to help her.
It would’ve been nice if she had invited Becky and Dina out with them, but I feel like it might not have helped Joyce’s initial plan of helping Dorothy feel better.
Yes, Joyce did good, and it was healthy for both herself and Dorothy. It’s this post hoc rationalisation that went wrong.
Honestly, Becky would probably have been a bongo to Dorothy the whole time anyways. I couldn’t imagine what she would say while drunk.
I’m starting to think that after college Becky and Joyce will go their separate ways, becoming the kind of friends who write greetings to each other at holidays and then never talk to each other again. What a strange coincidence that a good friendship like this goes down on the same day that in “Luann” a friendship that looked doomed seems to come back stronger than ever.
… considering how the entire thing happened – Joyce suddenly realized something was very wrong with Dorothy, rushed over there, dragged her out with a half-thought-out idea of going and getting drinks and hopefully making her feel happy and getting her to open up about what was wrong…
Joyce telling Becky that Dina was the reason that she didn’t include her, is a lie.
It’s not the reason. It’s a justification, concocted after the decision was made, so that Becky wouldn’t get mad at her. And it’s not even a very good one: people don’t *have* to invite the boyfriend or girlfriend when going out as friends. Joyce didn’t drag Joe along, after all.
And whether Becky knows it was a lie or not, she knows that the WAY that Joyce said it, was throwing Dina under the bus and making her take the blame for something she couldn’t control, rather than Joyce accept that she was in any way responsible for Becky’s hurt feelings.
Joyce knows it, too. That’s why she had “anticipated and addressed all her grievances” – she knew she’d have them. Just because Joyce is most likely on the spectrum doesn’t mean that she suddenly forgot everything she ever knew about friends and loyalty and making others feel loved and accepted.
Becky comics are the worst. It’s like she’s constructed to be obnoxious, and outside of a comic she’d likely find herself alone quickly.
She’s quite over-the-top. I’ve gotten used to Dina, and kind of like her now. Becky is still a bit much.
Yes Joyce, she *still* gets to be angry because you don’t get to tell her how to feel about reality and about you bringing it up. You are growing and catching yourself on your mistakes right away, which is great progress, but even just being reminded of a sore topic can ruin a person’s day, even if you notice and apologize right away. But you’ll learn. You are learning so much. I’m proud of you.
Hm. Maybe this isn’t about Joyce anymore. I guess i’ve started talking to my younger self halfway through.
Joyce’s next self-improvement project: stop talking before the shit comes out.
It’s a pretty long project. I’m almost certain it can be accomplished within the human lifetime. If nothing else, it’s certainly achieved afterwards.
Anyway, she’s also lying. I doubt she ever considered that whole thing. It’s the sort of excuse you make because you anticipate having to lie and overprepare.
She did not want to invite Becky. That’s it. And she pretends it’s about Dina (oh so logical, sure) so that she doesn’t make it about Becky. A more personal argument. Again.
I don’t have a thesis statement to write about this minute-long interaction, but I do think nobody’s misbehaving to the degree others seem to believe.
It’s true, but she shouldn’t say it.
I’m pleased that Dina remembered her promise to Joyce to let her know when she’s upset or when Joyce has put her foot in her mouth.
Oooof. As an autistic woman in my 30s who still gets mistaken for a teen sometimes… I feel this in my gut.
Joyce no…
Sidebar but have you seen some 21 year olds these days? Some of them look like they’re still in jr high.
Congratulations, you have aged.