this is funny but also with the blue added it has a bit of a strobe effect; you should probably tag that with some variation of #flashing or #cw flashing for photosensitive folks
She’s always been the sort who believes in the things that those she likes believe in and doesn’t believe in the things those who’ve hurt her believe. Religion was as much about closeness than anything else.
I feel like these flashbacks are an important look at who she was and why people might worry about her being with Joe. But she’s grown so much and he has too, with them both trying to be better versions of themselves. Making a big choice that’s about what she wants and likes rather than what others like based on how she sees them feels like her endgame here.
Also, that’s fairly hypocrite of you to act like the bible is so important when you were trying to make up something and “workshop it” about the bible a few seconds before.
But the Bible is the only thing that matters. Morality is a question of feeling a certain way about something and then going to the Bible to get support for why that feeling is correct. You can’t just leave out the Bible and act like your feelings alone are any indication of what is moral.
Haha, funny, that’s how the current Supreme Court makes decisions too. Decide the outcome they want then make up some shit about what the founders wanted. They don’t even have to find actual precedent or text in the constitution.
“Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell *bad*. Are you sure your circuits are registering correctly? Your ears are green. “
It’s the old “overwhelm a computer with nonsense until it breaks” gag. This one is from Star Trek the original series. I think the episode is called “Mudd’s Women”. Norman (a robot) is the computer.
Mostly it’s just because she gets a lot of panel time, especially considering that she was barely around for the first half of the comic. If you look at the bottom chart, which is per-appearance rather than just the raw total, she’s way down in the also-rans, below Lucy, of all people.
Also, the poll at the side of the page, I know that there is basically a big tie of a bunch of the 1 percents, but Jennifer probably ought to be closer to Walky in ranking, given Joyce has canonically stared at her tits in wonderment.
Of course, the top 5 is probably as it ought to be, anyway, so it’s a moot point.
I voted Sal. I feel like Joyce would say/vote Joe out of loyalty, but the way she idolises/d Sal makes me think she’d secretly believe she was the hottest even if not specifically as attractive to her as others on the list. That said, I’ve just remembered how thirsty she was over Jacob and thinking I should have voted for him…
And that’s the thing about polls like this; you don’t know how other people read the questions. I nearly voted Dorothy, then thought “But the question isn’t ‘Who does Joyce think is hottest?’ it’s ‘Who’s hottest, answering as Joyce?’ And Joyce would say it’s Joe.” So that’s who I voted for.
And it depends on her mood too. If she’s in a “oh no what if other people think I think my boyfriend is hot” mood, she would answer differently. Or if she were trying to cheer someone up who was feeling bad about themselves.
Ok, so for me the difference here is not so much between “hot” and “attractive”, as it is between “hottest” and most “specifically attractive to her”. Both subjective, but the former is more about her opinion of that person’s hotness, while the latter’s more about how that person makes her feel, if that makes sense?
Exactly, I can quite often recognize how most people will think someone is hot while being indifferent myself.
Will Joyce answer “who is hottest?” with that person which everyone seems to agree is hottest (even though I couldn’t care less), or with the person she finds the hottest, but assumes nobody will ever agree with her ? Joyce seems to value “being correct”, or in such a case “being agreed with” more than “giving her opinion”, which means I expect Joyce will probably answer Sal (or Joe, indeed) if asked “who do you think is the hottest?”
If the question were phrased differently as in “who do you think Joyce finds the hottest?”, then my answer would probably be different.
It sounds like you could benefit from the “sexual vs. romantic vs. aesthetic” trinity model of attraction! That is to say, your version of “hot” sounds like what I’d call “aesthetic attraction” – desire to look at someone and appreciate their appearance – while your version of “attractive” sounds like what I’d call “a mix of romantic and sexual attraction” – desire to do romantic and/or sexual things with someone.
I dunno, as they were getting together, Joyce was definitely getting pretty vivid in how much she wanted Joe, like wanting to bite his ass. I don’t think she ever quite got like that over Sal, or maybe Jacob either.
I think Joyce would answer Sal for “hottest, girl category”, even though I ship her more with Dorothy.
(I don’t know how I’d rate Dorothy’s in-universe attractiveness, though. I feel like her fashion style is so Prematurely Grandma that she’s probably a little dumpy IRL. On the other hand Walky would have us believe she’s very pretty, and I don’t think we are supposed to disbelieve him or think that’s just Because He Likes Her So Much; he was pretty clearly immediately stunned speechless by how pretty she is, and her liking his favorite cartoon was more of a “sealed the deal” thing than the spark that set him off.)
I think Dorothy is probably considered quite attractive, just nerdy, but given how Amber is considered very attractive in-universe, too, a lot of people are into that.
Like Dorothy isn’t a head-turner on Sal’s level, maybe, sure, but she’s well above average if I had to guess.
Also to be clear I also think Joyce would consider Sal the “safest” answer. No one who’s not just like a terrible person would question her choice if she picked Sal for Hottest Girl; she’d still get some teasing, probably, but not as much and not the same kind of teasing that “Dorothy” would.)
(Aside, I’m wondering how much time has passed between the two flashbacks. They look quite a bit older in this one, probably not too far off from when the strip started?)
i don’t think tristan’s paretns would’ve been strict enough to forbid it, esp since they just said ‘hangingo ut’ versus her catching them having sex, much less french kissing lol (if anything didn’t ppl keep calling tristan jewish too? guess they didn’t send him to to temple instead of joyce’s group unless somehow there was some kinda church that accepted other ‘variations’)
Looks like an older Young Joyce. This crush had staying power! It’s a testament to Joyce’s loyal nature…and that a homeschooled girl just doesn’t know a lot of boys.
Well, it was Christian dads who came up with purity balls. “Vow that you’ll be daddy’s property until daddy consigns you to another owner, who shall be known as ‘husband.'”
There definitely aren’t any parts where a dude is stranded in the wilderness with his two adult daughters after an outburst of divine wrath turned his wife into a pillar of salt (kind of a whole basilisk thing, do not look directly at the divine judgment beam, you know how it is) and the two daughters go
“Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if we got Dad drunk and hanky-pankied the shit outta him?”
“Ooh that’d be super hot, you know, for the continuation of the chosen bloodline and all”
—and then proceed to have a consequence-free, God-endorsed incestuous threesome
I don’t know that I would draw a direct line from the Daughters of Lot to the Evangelicalism death-cult heresy, but I mean, as Joyce says, one could workshop something 😛
(I’m not an atheist myself, for the record, I just find it hilarious when the Tetragrammaton really pops off in the biblical canon)
Definitely was not presented as God-endorsed. Presented as a shameful mistake. Lot’s daughters thought that they and their dad were the last people on earth, so that they should repopulate the planet, so they got their dad drunk, and it was gross.
It’s a pattern where the Israelites didn’t get along with a neighboring tribe so we were like, “haha, in our book your ancestor did something really bad and shameful! Y’all are sons of dad-rapists.”
I definitely recommend Jonathan Kirsch’s Harlot by the Side of the Road, which is a hilarious exploration of some of the bible stories that don’t tend to get brought up in Sunday School/Jewish-equivalent-thereof. His conclusion about the Lot and his daughters story is that you have to imagine it being told by a Jewish stand-up comic. Which honestly makes a whole lot of sense, though I can’t remember his specific proposed punchline, which is great. Something about “And guess what??? After all that, their kids were ***!” But I can’t remember what *** is.
@Leorale: Okay, fair point, that’s a better summation lol, and the mythical notes make it more coherent. I think I’ve just always been piqued by the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah’s violent brand of hedonism is enough to nuke them both, and seraphim in disguise come to pick Lot up, and then ultimately: Incest Town, Population: Lot! It’s a weird deal! YHWH was cooking in a very weird way that day!
Rabid Rabbit: holy shit that’s perfect context, I love it
Catholics don’t have a lot of truck with what’s in the Bible. They believe they created the Bible and they can supersede it. As far as I remember, the priests in their sermons never quoted any Bible but Paul.
How bizarre they quote the dude who kept saying “Works aren’t important, just say you believe enough” and not the bits that require them to actually help people.
Schpoonman: you’re thinking Protestants. Catholic dogma very much holds that works are necessary for entry into heaven. That’s why Purgatory’s a thing! Gotta sweat those misdeeds and imperfections out!
On the other hand, though, a lot of priests do like to quote Mr. Epistles a lot, that’s true.
Paul was a huge dipshit and Becky is right to love James the Just a lot more than the Damascene Disaster. Like, honestly, whether Catholic or Protestant, really being into Paul is kind of a red flag for any clergyman—less so with believers, who usually relate to his backstory more, but it still can be. He’s the saint that sucks!
If you’re relating to the backstory ‘Violently oppressed people for being in the wrong sect of Judaism, had a massive TBI, switched sects but otherwise carried on with his life,’ I don’t know that that’s not a red flag
This is insightful, and not as surprising now that I say it out loud to myself, but Joyce said early on that she was considered to be the most socially well adjusted kid in her homeschool group. After Becky and now Tristan, it’s clear that that only meant “the most entrenched”, I suppose. But now she’s kind of completely rubber banded right past the others in terms of “fuck this shit, I’m out”
she was prolly fine with the other ‘well behaved’ christian kids that didn’t show any sign of rebellion or interests in stuff outside of religion but would be interested if it caught up to the present and tara and tristan was wtill together lol
I don’t know why but Tara’s “We’re just having fun.” hints at a girl with a hidden agenda. What fun were you having Tara? Why would you not claim Tristan in front of a potential romantic rival? What were you cooking girl?
I think she might be trying to play it cool, like she wants to impress Tristan by being nonchalant. Either that or Tristan likes her more than she likes him, and she’s trying to pump the brakes a bit without hurting him. Or she’s just a kid who’s new to all this and responding in a way that doesn’t make sense to adults. 🤷🏼♀️
Trivia time: Did you know the word “narc,” meaning “snitch” or “informer,” is much older than the term “narcotics agent?” It goes back to at least the nineteenth century.
Judging by https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=narc it seems like the actual word was nark, but it understandably got conflated with the shortened form of “narcotics agent”.
i know there’s a stereotype of christian girls ‘moving fast’ but feels like that’d be a lot of pressure if either of them rly was like “oh yeah i see as potential marriage” but i mean the point of dating is to get to know ppl , sucky for ppl who married the first person they dated and regretted it before divorce was more normalized
I’ve also always struggled with that lol. Like, if you never want to get married then that’s fine (or your goals change early or later either direction), but when I meet people who *do* and have marriage as a major goal and they’re like “yeah, but we’re just having fun, I don’t think I could ever marry them” my brain short circuits because it doesn’t make sense to me.
Like, I’m in the wrong since apparently dating people you would only consider for marriage is weird and I’m weird for having done that according to 99% of people, but I feel Joyce’s confusion very much here. Very much an “I know I’m wrong but I still don’t understand how” situation.
Not that I’d tell people that I think they’re doing their relationships weirdly. My confusion is more like a cat sitting outside the tub and trying to figure out why their human is willingly sitting in water. I’m just glad I’m married and don’t have to try to navigate this stuff anymore.
Oh, and it doesn’t apply here because those are smols (and my focus on marriage as a teenager was for very unhealthy reasons), I mostly mean in general as adults my age or older. Occurs to me I wasn’t clear on that.
People date those they don’t currently see as marriage material because they feel a need for emotional connection right now, or because they are trying to figure out what works and what doesn’t for them, or maybe they aren’t in a position to get married currently but are in a position to date/have a relationship. Or maybe they just need some kind of sex based partnership. I’m sure there’s more but my brain isn’t working and I have to go work and train newbies to follow processes and also not drill through their hands
It’s fine to want to date for marriage and it’s fine to want to date around. It’s also okay to date around for a while with plans to eventually get married later. And it’s okay for those to change or mix as time goes on. It’s not okay to be a judge dick to other people for what they want (which you aren’t, I’m speaking generally here).
This, right here. @Bittersweet is NOT “in the wrong”, and it’s OK to just feel like a cat sitting outside a tub trying to figure out why their human is willing sitting in water. Sometimes, people don’t value the same things as other people! More the OK, that’s actually a good thing, since it ensures our society will keep a variety of perspectives on hand!
I think a lot of people grew up with the expectation that they would be married “when they were an adult”, and it can seem like a distant future goal that will happen when you are more mature but does not apply to the present.
Honestly, Willis’ representation of autism / different flavours of autism / autism in women and girls is EXTREMELY well-informed in this comic.
It’s very common for autistic women like Joyce to form strong attachments, in a way that looks like – or is also – classified as Borderline Personality Disorder (a horrible name IMO). It’s also common for autistic women to have more ‘social’ special interests, which include crushes, that get them labelled as ‘intense’ and socially rejected or potentially get them taken advantage of, instead.
Personally I rarely see the point in getting involved with someone who I do not like or respect enough to at least offer the possibility of a longer term thing IF nothing pops up to rule it out while getting to know them, however I decoupled that instinct from any link with marraige and from the experience of growing up in a family and village where most people were married and having kids by 21, by moving away and experiencing life without it.
Yeah. I think the common advice “don’t date someone you wouldn’t marry” is not aimed at “meh, not this one, but he/she is fun” but at “no way would I tie myself to this one for life, but I dig feeling risky.”
Plus, it can take some experience to figure out what you mean, specifically, by “someone I would marry.” (“To find your prince, you have to kiss a lot of toads.”)
See I don’t think I agree that that’s the INTENT with that advice (or at least, certainly not always the intent with it), but I do agree that it’s much more useful and less toxic in that form heh.
panels 3-4 are familiar. the thought processes that can get someone her age to those conclusions. Like living too much in one’s own head, and then using religion to repackage it in attempt to make it make sense.
Now I super don’t understand Tristan’s position in this fundie community.
I wasn’t raised full on fundamental but pretty close, and I can’t imagine anyone in the youth group straight up saying that. ACTING like they don’t care what’s in the bible, then immediately prooftexting to justify their behavior, sure, but out loud saying “the bible doesn’t matter” would have been world rocking.
I was thinking that too! This is actually kind of shocking to say at church!
But I’m also realizing that this is actually a pretty large church – maybe a couple hundred people? So it’s possible that Tristan is one of the kids whose parents bring him, he goes to youth group, etc., but they’re not full on Kool-Aid types, and he’s basically going along to avoid trouble. His parents might even be divorced – one parent brings him, the other is Future Hank.
There were a LOT of kids at youth group stuff who were at pretty wildly varying levels of fundamentalism, even in the much smaller churches I saw as a kid.
It’s also interesting that Joyce doesn’t know Tara. Is their church really big enough that she wouldn’t know another girl of the same age from Sunday schools and church trips or the like?
Or is Tara from outside their church? Maybe Tristan’s playing down the Bible to fit better with her.
Of course, but that she doesn’t know her suggests some things. She’s with Tristan right outside of church, which suggests, but doesn’t prove, they’re all there for church.
Mostly what I’m drawing from that is that Tara probably doesn’t attend their church and thus might not be quite so fundy.
And Joyce, how are you supposed to have intentions if you can’t go on any dates and see if you’re even compatible or have fun in each other’s company???? Call it testing the water.
Is she trying to ratiofidelity? Or is this not being able to concede defeat that she wasn’t able to make any move on him after experiencing puppy love for so long?
Maybe things just don’t work out in the future. Or will she consider Joe as her only romantic relationship forevermore?
No Becky in this one.
Which means there either is no active source of these flashbacks in story and they are solely for reader exposition Or Joyce is the active source.
Or Becky will appear from offscreen tomorrow in the immediate continuation of this particular flashback.
These are all from the perspective of nearby beetles, the favored children of Khefri, the Divine Scarab, creator of the universe. Humans are just unintentional by-products whose antics provide a backdrop to beetle’s lives.
Who’d thought you would grow up to create an extremely horny Space Captain who is nothing like you, with a President BFF who is blatantly not based on any real BFF of yours who you clearly do not harbour homoerotic feelings towards, who both get into a fivesome with three muscular Space Vampires definitely not representing any charming hunks of your acquaintance.
Also while Milu WAS using it as an adjective on Joyce’s feelings, homoerotic in media is often divorced from the literal sexuality of the characters it describes. The homoerotic friendship between character x and y, for example, is very close to saying “the shippy (specifically in a queer way) friendship between x and y”.
It’s usually used to describe a reader’s interpretation of a given bit of text, rather than how characters would self-identify, and characters of all sexualities can engage in homoerotic subtext.
I was in Joyce’s shoes when my parents, very strict christians, confessed to me I was generated couple months before marriage, and that’s why my mom looked more “chubby” in wedding album.
I was in Joyce’s shoes when my friend told me he was looking for apps for menstrual circle, and I asked why.
I was in Joyce’s shoes, when I witnessed a fight in the church council.
When I saw a brother showing the middle finger. Or playing Number of The Beast from Iron Maiden.
I was so angry.
First, because they have sinned so explicitly, even knowing the Bible.
After, because why they are allowed to sin, while I’m not.
And last, because I have taken so long to stop believing in those things. To stop fearing God, hell. And furious because I still fear people, for doing things that are so natural for other human being…
If it helps at all, I was raised in a quite liberal Methodist church (compared to the other Methodists in area), went pagan in my 20s, am now 50, and still have those same feelings some times
The origin of Joyce’s sexual attraction to them blasphemers, more like.
“Ooh, you don’t believe in the word of god without question, you say? I hate that! Tell me more.”
What fascinates me about this reveal is that when Joyce and Becky went back home after the ToeDad… unpleasantness… well, okay, fine the FIRST ToeDad unpleasantness, the one where he didn’t get killed, Joyce was still thinking about seeing Tristan (in smaller letters) at church when they went back. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/countryside/
So clearly this didn’t break her entirely. As in, shocking though it may have been, it wasn’t enough to -either- make her doubt -or- instantly give up on him.
Which is interesting.
(Of course, as a literature nerd I also wonder how significant his name is, as Tristan is one of the great romantic heroes except that it’s only because he got accidentally roofied. Hmm.)
Having grown up fundamentalist and become SUPER LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE Christian, this is pretty accurate. For every Joyce, there is someone who doesn’t actually care at all and just does lip service.
This makes me curious where Tristan is now. Did he go to college? Is he still Christian? Does he have fundie brain rot? Is he out bangin broads left and right? Does he know what his (at least childhood) church did, or that it’s at risk of losing the building? What is he up to?
He was at some point. He was on that church trip and Joyce was looking forward to seeing him in church on her visit home, until reminded he was probably at college.
Whatever his actual beliefs, he seems to have not broken entirely with the family church as far as Joyce knew. I’d guess he went to Anderson, like Becky did.
I had the impression that Joyce stalked him at church, going to all of the services etc. I thought they were in church now which would be a rude place to claim no one cared about religion!
So let me see if I have this straight. Joyce liked somebody, and that somebody started dating someone else, and then she got weirdly aggressive and confrontational about that relationship because she wasn’t able to express and own up to her own feelings for that person.
They mean Joyce might have romantic feelings for Dorothy that she can’t recognize consciously and that’s the reason she got so ticked off about her dating Walky at the beggining, similarly to how she is acting in this strip with her former crush.
No, I mean that *Dotty* might have romantic feelings for *Joyce* that she isn’t acknowledging conciously, and that’s the reason she got so ticked off about her dating *Joe* currently, similarly to how Joyce is acting in this strip with her former crush.
Dorothy doesn’t know what she wants, and without a stated purpose she’s going through the motions of what she did before hoping to find what she lost. But the only way forward is doing what she hasn’t done before
My church totally drilled “you have to intend to marry someone or dating is a Sin” rhetoric into my youth group’s heads. A lot of them didn’t seem to care about it as much as I did, but I was a baby autistic who didn’t understand there was gray area about rules yet. (Now I’m Tristan in the penultimate panel, lol)
But like, tl;dr–I can really feel for lil Joyce here
Like I was barely 16, dating someone slightly younger, and our (*mostly his) parents were already talking like we were going to be Married someday and having grandkids for them. I didn’t even like him all that much–the church just pressured me into it because he liked me, and I just went along with it because I was trying so, SO hard to be a Good, Feminine, Straight Christian Young Lady ™.
Anyway, I’m like none of those things now. Maybe “good” on some days.
Loading ...
welp, new frame
oh it’s like her eyes are deflating, weird
this is funny but also with the blue added it has a bit of a strobe effect; you should probably tag that with some variation of #flashing or #cw flashing for photosensitive folks
also cool art 👍
The flashing hurts my eyes, yet the hilarity and clear care of its crafting is a balm upon the soul.
Well it had to start somewhere.
Seriously though, I do love how well this flashback establishes old Joyce’s worldview and how a few syllables can shake her to the core.
Given where Joyce is at the beginning of the strip, I’m guessing that we’re going to go somewhere else with this.
She’s always been the sort who believes in the things that those she likes believe in and doesn’t believe in the things those who’ve hurt her believe. Religion was as much about closeness than anything else.
I feel like these flashbacks are an important look at who she was and why people might worry about her being with Joe. But she’s grown so much and he has too, with them both trying to be better versions of themselves. Making a big choice that’s about what she wants and likes rather than what others like based on how she sees them feels like her endgame here.
I suspect the actual origin was the day Joyce was born and the doctor said “okay, you’re going to have to breathe for yourself now!”
That, or when she discovered that her birth was an indicator that her parents had actually had sex.
*plays “Charlie’s Inferno” by That Handsome Devil on hacked muzak*
I jumped here fast, thought this was something about Hazbin Hotel. But the song is awesome.
OH SHIT
Also, that’s fairly hypocrite of you to act like the bible is so important when you were trying to make up something and “workshop it” about the bible a few seconds before.
Yes, and very much in line with how she was taught.
But the Bible is the only thing that matters. Morality is a question of feeling a certain way about something and then going to the Bible to get support for why that feeling is correct. You can’t just leave out the Bible and act like your feelings alone are any indication of what is moral.
“This is what Joyce Browns actually believe”
Haha, funny, that’s how the current Supreme Court makes decisions too. Decide the outcome they want then make up some shit about what the founders wanted. They don’t even have to find actual precedent or text in the constitution.
“Righteousness” is when you feel right.
The Bible is the ultimate source of all morality, so if you know something is right, it MUST be in the bible. That’s logic, that is!
No need to check. It must be there because it’s right.
NEW FREAKOUT FACE!
Joyce disapproves -100 lol
[Joyce hated this.]
[Joyce is no longer following you.]
[Joyce is now an enemy.]
next move is a band of Joyce Centurions pursuing you across the Mojave Wasteland
And… now we know why Tristan did not work out.
Aside from Joyce pretending she felt nothing, I mean.
NORMAN COORDINATE
I am not programmed to respond in that area.
“Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell *bad*. Are you sure your circuits are registering correctly? Your ears are green. “
What’s going on here?
Didn’t Epimenides the Cretan say all Cretans are liars?
That’s what he claims.
This. Statement. Is. FALSE!
don’t think about it don’t think about it don’t think about it don’t think about it
It’s the old “overwhelm a computer with nonsense until it breaks” gag. This one is from Star Trek the original series. I think the episode is called “Mudd’s Women”. Norman (a robot) is the computer.
“Mudd’s Women” introduced the character of Harry Mudd. This bit comes from “I, Mudd”, a later episode where he returns.
Thank you, that’s what I get for relying on memory instead of checking with The Oracle.
Damn, Tristan! I’d like you if I hadn’t already decided to irrationally hate you instead. I’m breaking even on it.
As we go further back in Joyce’s history, I hope we’ll see many more events in her life that caused her to make a hilarious face.
Going back to newborn Joyce seeing light for the first time.
Tara, this is Joyce, who cares what’s in the Bible.
I’m not sure what I expected when I clicked on your name, but it wasn’t that.
Thanks for compiling the F-bomb report. I don’t know why I care about that, but I do.
If you were going to tell me Becky would be in the top 10 I’d have been surprised.
Mostly it’s just because she gets a lot of panel time, especially considering that she was barely around for the first half of the comic. If you look at the bottom chart, which is per-appearance rather than just the raw total, she’s way down in the also-rans, below Lucy, of all people.
Quite the development.
Also, the poll at the side of the page, I know that there is basically a big tie of a bunch of the 1 percents, but Jennifer probably ought to be closer to Walky in ranking, given Joyce has canonically stared at her tits in wonderment.
Of course, the top 5 is probably as it ought to be, anyway, so it’s a moot point.
The top 4 dominating so much makes everything else basically irrelevant. 15-30 votes out of 1200 is essentially polling error.
Huh, just realized, there’s no Conquest on the list. How do we think Joyce rates her looks?
Joyce refuses to look directly at Conquest.
(I’m making that up.)
I voted Sal. I feel like Joyce would say/vote Joe out of loyalty, but the way she idolises/d Sal makes me think she’d secretly believe she was the hottest even if not specifically as attractive to her as others on the list. That said, I’ve just remembered how thirsty she was over Jacob and thinking I should have voted for him…
And that’s the thing about polls like this; you don’t know how other people read the questions. I nearly voted Dorothy, then thought “But the question isn’t ‘Who does Joyce think is hottest?’ it’s ‘Who’s hottest, answering as Joyce?’ And Joyce would say it’s Joe.” So that’s who I voted for.
That’s definitely another very valid interpretation!
And it depends on her mood too. If she’s in a “oh no what if other people think I think my boyfriend is hot” mood, she would answer differently. Or if she were trying to cheer someone up who was feeling bad about themselves.
So what do “hot” and “attractive” mean?
Ok, so for me the difference here is not so much between “hot” and “attractive”, as it is between “hottest” and most “specifically attractive to her”. Both subjective, but the former is more about her opinion of that person’s hotness, while the latter’s more about how that person makes her feel, if that makes sense?
Exactly, I can quite often recognize how most people will think someone is hot while being indifferent myself.
Will Joyce answer “who is hottest?” with that person which everyone seems to agree is hottest (even though I couldn’t care less), or with the person she finds the hottest, but assumes nobody will ever agree with her ? Joyce seems to value “being correct”, or in such a case “being agreed with” more than “giving her opinion”, which means I expect Joyce will probably answer Sal (or Joe, indeed) if asked “who do you think is the hottest?”
If the question were phrased differently as in “who do you think Joyce finds the hottest?”, then my answer would probably be different.
It sounds like you could benefit from the “sexual vs. romantic vs. aesthetic” trinity model of attraction! That is to say, your version of “hot” sounds like what I’d call “aesthetic attraction” – desire to look at someone and appreciate their appearance – while your version of “attractive” sounds like what I’d call “a mix of romantic and sexual attraction” – desire to do romantic and/or sexual things with someone.
I dunno, as they were getting together, Joyce was definitely getting pretty vivid in how much she wanted Joe, like wanting to bite his ass. I don’t think she ever quite got like that over Sal, or maybe Jacob either.
I answered Ethan, but I see now I should have chosen Dorothy.
I confess I’ve voted for Dorothy TWICE. (I have cellphone and notebook).
But it’s hard to win a himbo like Joe. haha
I think Joyce would answer Sal for “hottest, girl category”, even though I ship her more with Dorothy.
(I don’t know how I’d rate Dorothy’s in-universe attractiveness, though. I feel like her fashion style is so Prematurely Grandma that she’s probably a little dumpy IRL. On the other hand Walky would have us believe she’s very pretty, and I don’t think we are supposed to disbelieve him or think that’s just Because He Likes Her So Much; he was pretty clearly immediately stunned speechless by how pretty she is, and her liking his favorite cartoon was more of a “sealed the deal” thing than the spark that set him off.)
I think Dorothy is probably considered quite attractive, just nerdy, but given how Amber is considered very attractive in-universe, too, a lot of people are into that.
Like Dorothy isn’t a head-turner on Sal’s level, maybe, sure, but she’s well above average if I had to guess.
I’m sure you’re right.
Also to be clear I also think Joyce would consider Sal the “safest” answer. No one who’s not just like a terrible person would question her choice if she picked Sal for Hottest Girl; she’d still get some teasing, probably, but not as much and not the same kind of teasing that “Dorothy” would.)
Oh damn, guess I like Tristan
…oh. Oh wow.
Yeah, I bet Joyce is feeling a lot of regret over this conversation in the present day. I wonder if this was the very first seed of doubt?
Wow, I remember the last Joyce flashback as clearly as if it was just the other week…
(Aside, I’m wondering how much time has passed between the two flashbacks. They look quite a bit older in this one, probably not too far off from when the strip started?)
So, did Joyce rat him out, leading to a stint in some reeducation camp for insufficiently Christian behavior?
I think you severally overestimating the seriousness of these flashback.
i don’t think tristan’s paretns would’ve been strict enough to forbid it, esp since they just said ‘hangingo ut’ versus her catching them having sex, much less french kissing lol (if anything didn’t ppl keep calling tristan jewish too? guess they didn’t send him to to temple instead of joyce’s group unless somehow there was some kinda church that accepted other ‘variations’)
No, people just assumed his ancestors were Jewish because he was Polish. He was in Joyce’s youth group.
Tristan is not Jewish. He has a Polish last name.
Wasn’t it Joyce’s mom that said “that Tristan boy” was Jewish?
Orr something?
Joyce’s mom says a lot of things.
Found it. “Tristan’s dad was from Poland, so I just assume…”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/ohhh/
World: S H A T T E R E D
I had ”BETRAYAL” as the word but I guess this one is better
Looks like an older Young Joyce. This crush had staying power! It’s a testament to Joyce’s loyal nature…and that a homeschooled girl just doesn’t know a lot of boys.
No competition means easier prey for their dads.
That’s right. I said it.
Well, it was Christian dads who came up with purity balls. “Vow that you’ll be daddy’s property until daddy consigns you to another owner, who shall be known as ‘husband.'”
I always picture “purity balls” as being like giant plastic hamster balls that they seal their daughters into to keep them chaste.
It’s really sad that that’s less weird and creepy than what they actually are.
Joyce’s expression in the last panel is the face of someone who stared into the void and the void said chill out dude.
+ 1
Joyce: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
yeah, who cares? do I look like I care? not this guy right here!
No seriously; I took 2 years of catholic summer school and can’t remember a thing of what is in the actual bible.
There definitely aren’t any parts where a dude is stranded in the wilderness with his two adult daughters after an outburst of divine wrath turned his wife into a pillar of salt (kind of a whole basilisk thing, do not look directly at the divine judgment beam, you know how it is) and the two daughters go
“Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if we got Dad drunk and hanky-pankied the shit outta him?”
“Ooh that’d be super hot, you know, for the continuation of the chosen bloodline and all”
—and then proceed to have a consequence-free, God-endorsed incestuous threesome
Definitely none of that
I prefer to think that only the fundies are the product of generations of incest.
I don’t know that I would draw a direct line from the Daughters of Lot to the Evangelicalism death-cult heresy, but I mean, as Joyce says, one could workshop something 😛
(I’m not an atheist myself, for the record, I just find it hilarious when the Tetragrammaton really pops off in the biblical canon)
Definitely was not presented as God-endorsed. Presented as a shameful mistake. Lot’s daughters thought that they and their dad were the last people on earth, so that they should repopulate the planet, so they got their dad drunk, and it was gross.
It’s a pattern where the Israelites didn’t get along with a neighboring tribe so we were like, “haha, in our book your ancestor did something really bad and shameful! Y’all are sons of dad-rapists.”
I definitely recommend Jonathan Kirsch’s Harlot by the Side of the Road, which is a hilarious exploration of some of the bible stories that don’t tend to get brought up in Sunday School/Jewish-equivalent-thereof. His conclusion about the Lot and his daughters story is that you have to imagine it being told by a Jewish stand-up comic. Which honestly makes a whole lot of sense, though I can’t remember his specific proposed punchline, which is great. Something about “And guess what??? After all that, their kids were ***!” But I can’t remember what *** is.
@Leorale: Okay, fair point, that’s a better summation lol, and the mythical notes make it more coherent. I think I’ve just always been piqued by the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah’s violent brand of hedonism is enough to nuke them both, and seraphim in disguise come to pick Lot up, and then ultimately: Incest Town, Population: Lot! It’s a weird deal! YHWH was cooking in a very weird way that day!
Rabid Rabbit: holy shit that’s perfect context, I love it
Catholics don’t have a lot of truck with what’s in the Bible. They believe they created the Bible and they can supersede it. As far as I remember, the priests in their sermons never quoted any Bible but Paul.
How bizarre they quote the dude who kept saying “Works aren’t important, just say you believe enough” and not the bits that require them to actually help people.
Schpoonman: you’re thinking Protestants. Catholic dogma very much holds that works are necessary for entry into heaven. That’s why Purgatory’s a thing! Gotta sweat those misdeeds and imperfections out!
On the other hand, though, a lot of priests do like to quote Mr. Epistles a lot, that’s true.
It’s just weird since Paul was talking about the need to keep the Jewish Law and not all the parts about helping people.
Paul was a huge dipshit and Becky is right to love James the Just a lot more than the Damascene Disaster. Like, honestly, whether Catholic or Protestant, really being into Paul is kind of a red flag for any clergyman—less so with believers, who usually relate to his backstory more, but it still can be. He’s the saint that sucks!
No! Stop that! Get Leslie and her crap taste in ladies out of here! Go be a flawed but lovable mentor somewhere else!
If you’re relating to the backstory ‘Violently oppressed people for being in the wrong sect of Judaism, had a massive TBI, switched sects but otherwise carried on with his life,’ I don’t know that that’s not a red flag
Paul certainly had his flaws, but people also routinely completely misunderstand him.
And loving James the Just instead without leaning into keeping Torah Law just shows that.
This is insightful, and not as surprising now that I say it out loud to myself, but Joyce said early on that she was considered to be the most socially well adjusted kid in her homeschool group. After Becky and now Tristan, it’s clear that that only meant “the most entrenched”, I suppose. But now she’s kind of completely rubber banded right past the others in terms of “fuck this shit, I’m out”
she was prolly fine with the other ‘well behaved’ christian kids that didn’t show any sign of rebellion or interests in stuff outside of religion but would be interested if it caught up to the present and tara and tristan was wtill together lol
I don’t know why but Tara’s “We’re just having fun.” hints at a girl with a hidden agenda. What fun were you having Tara? Why would you not claim Tristan in front of a potential romantic rival? What were you cooking girl?
SHE WAS COOKING WITH THE ETERNAL CONDIMENT OF SIN.
Elders’ workshopping session: “…ooooh, I like that one”
I think she might be trying to play it cool, like she wants to impress Tristan by being nonchalant. Either that or Tristan likes her more than she likes him, and she’s trying to pump the brakes a bit without hurting him. Or she’s just a kid who’s new to all this and responding in a way that doesn’t make sense to adults. 🤷🏼♀️
Or perhaps she is giving a prudent, defensive reply considering that her environment is full of narcs and informers.
Having grown up in essentially this environment, so much this.
Trivia time: Did you know the word “narc,” meaning “snitch” or “informer,” is much older than the term “narcotics agent?” It goes back to at least the nineteenth century.
:O
Judging by https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=narc it seems like the actual word was nark, but it understandably got conflated with the shortened form of “narcotics agent”.
i know there’s a stereotype of christian girls ‘moving fast’ but feels like that’d be a lot of pressure if either of them rly was like “oh yeah i see as potential marriage” but i mean the point of dating is to get to know ppl , sucky for ppl who married the first person they dated and regretted it before divorce was more normalized
*plays Only the Good Die Young on the hacked Muzak*
Possible they’re not allowed to “date” or to have boy/girlfriends, so keeping it officially as “hanging out” skirts the rules.
maybe they’re friends with benefits and not romantically involved 😮
Oh no! An evil succubus appears, offering the secular temptation of “hanging out”!
I’ve also always struggled with that lol. Like, if you never want to get married then that’s fine (or your goals change early or later either direction), but when I meet people who *do* and have marriage as a major goal and they’re like “yeah, but we’re just having fun, I don’t think I could ever marry them” my brain short circuits because it doesn’t make sense to me.
Like, I’m in the wrong since apparently dating people you would only consider for marriage is weird and I’m weird for having done that according to 99% of people, but I feel Joyce’s confusion very much here. Very much an “I know I’m wrong but I still don’t understand how” situation.
Not that I’d tell people that I think they’re doing their relationships weirdly. My confusion is more like a cat sitting outside the tub and trying to figure out why their human is willingly sitting in water. I’m just glad I’m married and don’t have to try to navigate this stuff anymore.
Oh, and it doesn’t apply here because those are smols (and my focus on marriage as a teenager was for very unhealthy reasons), I mostly mean in general as adults my age or older. Occurs to me I wasn’t clear on that.
People date those they don’t currently see as marriage material because they feel a need for emotional connection right now, or because they are trying to figure out what works and what doesn’t for them, or maybe they aren’t in a position to get married currently but are in a position to date/have a relationship. Or maybe they just need some kind of sex based partnership. I’m sure there’s more but my brain isn’t working and I have to go work and train newbies to follow processes and also not drill through their hands
It’s fine to want to date for marriage and it’s fine to want to date around. It’s also okay to date around for a while with plans to eventually get married later. And it’s okay for those to change or mix as time goes on. It’s not okay to be a judge dick to other people for what they want (which you aren’t, I’m speaking generally here).
This, right here. @Bittersweet is NOT “in the wrong”, and it’s OK to just feel like a cat sitting outside a tub trying to figure out why their human is willing sitting in water. Sometimes, people don’t value the same things as other people! More the OK, that’s actually a good thing, since it ensures our society will keep a variety of perspectives on hand!
I think a lot of people grew up with the expectation that they would be married “when they were an adult”, and it can seem like a distant future goal that will happen when you are more mature but does not apply to the present.
Honestly, Willis’ representation of autism / different flavours of autism / autism in women and girls is EXTREMELY well-informed in this comic.
It’s very common for autistic women like Joyce to form strong attachments, in a way that looks like – or is also – classified as Borderline Personality Disorder (a horrible name IMO). It’s also common for autistic women to have more ‘social’ special interests, which include crushes, that get them labelled as ‘intense’ and socially rejected or potentially get them taken advantage of, instead.
Personally I rarely see the point in getting involved with someone who I do not like or respect enough to at least offer the possibility of a longer term thing IF nothing pops up to rule it out while getting to know them, however I decoupled that instinct from any link with marraige and from the experience of growing up in a family and village where most people were married and having kids by 21, by moving away and experiencing life without it.
Yeah. I think the common advice “don’t date someone you wouldn’t marry” is not aimed at “meh, not this one, but he/she is fun” but at “no way would I tie myself to this one for life, but I dig feeling risky.”
Plus, it can take some experience to figure out what you mean, specifically, by “someone I would marry.” (“To find your prince, you have to kiss a lot of toads.”)
See I don’t think I agree that that’s the INTENT with that advice (or at least, certainly not always the intent with it), but I do agree that it’s much more useful and less toxic in that form heh.
panels 3-4 are familiar. the thought processes that can get someone her age to those conclusions. Like living too much in one’s own head, and then using religion to repackage it in attempt to make it make sense.
Don’t trust that Jezebel.
I can tell that Tara doesn’t kara_bout Tristan like Joyce does.
Now I super don’t understand Tristan’s position in this fundie community.
I wasn’t raised full on fundamental but pretty close, and I can’t imagine anyone in the youth group straight up saying that. ACTING like they don’t care what’s in the bible, then immediately prooftexting to justify their behavior, sure, but out loud saying “the bible doesn’t matter” would have been world rocking.
Which I guess is the point!
I hope we get to see Jordan at some point here for the reveal of why he’s the black sheep!
I was thinking that too! This is actually kind of shocking to say at church!
But I’m also realizing that this is actually a pretty large church – maybe a couple hundred people? So it’s possible that Tristan is one of the kids whose parents bring him, he goes to youth group, etc., but they’re not full on Kool-Aid types, and he’s basically going along to avoid trouble. His parents might even be divorced – one parent brings him, the other is Future Hank.
There were a LOT of kids at youth group stuff who were at pretty wildly varying levels of fundamentalism, even in the much smaller churches I saw as a kid.
It’s also interesting that Joyce doesn’t know Tara. Is their church really big enough that she wouldn’t know another girl of the same age from Sunday schools and church trips or the like?
Or is Tara from outside their church? Maybe Tristan’s playing down the Bible to fit better with her.
Even in fundamentalist land, you associate with other children from other churches (camp, gatherings, and so on) or sports events.
Not everyone is home schooled either.
Of course, but that she doesn’t know her suggests some things. She’s with Tristan right outside of church, which suggests, but doesn’t prove, they’re all there for church.
Mostly what I’m drawing from that is that Tara probably doesn’t attend their church and thus might not be quite so fundy.
She could also be new in town, I suppose.
If only he could see her now.
And Joyce, how are you supposed to have intentions if you can’t go on any dates and see if you’re even compatible or have fun in each other’s company???? Call it testing the water.
The fundiegelical crowd… well, definitely they have an opinion on this subject.
Heh. Call it trying on the shoes.
Be friends instead of going on dates.
Friendship and romance are two very different types of compatibility, at least for me.
Is she trying to ratio fidelity? Or is this not being able to concede defeat that she wasn’t able to make any move on him after experiencing puppy love for so long?
Maybe things just don’t work out in the future. Or will she consider Joe as her only romantic relationship forevermore?
No Becky in this one.
Which means there either is no active source of these flashbacks in story and they are solely for reader exposition Or Joyce is the active source.
Or Becky will appear from offscreen tomorrow in the immediate continuation of this particular flashback.
It always seemed very focused on Joyce’s perspective to me.
This one is Tara’s recollection!
These are all from the perspective of nearby beetles, the favored children of Khefri, the Divine Scarab, creator of the universe. Humans are just unintentional by-products whose antics provide a backdrop to beetle’s lives.
God is known to have an inordinate fondness for beetles
Been a while since we had a Joyce Face!
Dumbing of Age, Book 17: In The Bible, Probably
And in that penultimate panel there, Tristan turns it all around and proves himself to have been a slightly above average character all along.
Hahaha! Oh, Joyce.
Who’d thought you would grow up to create an extremely horny Space Captain who is nothing like you, with a President BFF who is blatantly not based on any real BFF of yours who you clearly do not harbour homoerotic feelings towards, who both get into a fivesome with three muscular Space Vampires definitely not representing any charming hunks of your acquaintance.
Nothing, in other words, like this (very NSFW) part 16 of Space Captain Julia Gray’s adventure Make Love Not War.
I still think Joyce is biromantic but heterosexual.
Sure, that’s plausible.
However erotic ≠ sexual,
sexuality ≠ fantasy,
and most importantly my silly fansmut ≠ canon 🤷♀️
Also while Milu WAS using it as an adjective on Joyce’s feelings, homoerotic in media is often divorced from the literal sexuality of the characters it describes. The homoerotic friendship between character x and y, for example, is very close to saying “the shippy (specifically in a queer way) friendship between x and y”.
It’s usually used to describe a reader’s interpretation of a given bit of text, rather than how characters would self-identify, and characters of all sexualities can engage in homoerotic subtext.
That’s hot. Great work, Milu.
Thank you hon 😚
This strip made me remember my life as christian.
I was in Joyce’s shoes when my parents, very strict christians, confessed to me I was generated couple months before marriage, and that’s why my mom looked more “chubby” in wedding album.
I was in Joyce’s shoes when my friend told me he was looking for apps for menstrual circle, and I asked why.
I was in Joyce’s shoes, when I witnessed a fight in the church council.
When I saw a brother showing the middle finger. Or playing Number of The Beast from Iron Maiden.
I was so angry.
First, because they have sinned so explicitly, even knowing the Bible.
After, because why they are allowed to sin, while I’m not.
And last, because I have taken so long to stop believing in those things. To stop fearing God, hell. And furious because I still fear people, for doing things that are so natural for other human being…
If it helps at all, I was raised in a quite liberal Methodist church (compared to the other Methodists in area), went pagan in my 20s, am now 50, and still have those same feelings some times
*proffers e-hug from far away from a complete stranger*
I think I had a horrible realization about religion when I discovered from fellow fundamentalists so many of them were doing it because of fear.
“Why would God want you to do X and not Y because of fear instead of love?”
The celibacy thing was about finding the right person not damning you. Which seemed ridiculous to me.
And I was an ass as a fundamentalist.
First recorded instance of the Joyce ShockHorror face?
OOOOOH no. there will have been plenty from around ages 5-6 when the wrong FOODS were TOUCHING on her PLATE
The origin of Joyce’s sexual attraction to them blasphemers, more like.
“Ooh, you don’t believe in the word of god without question, you say? I hate that! Tell me more.”
What fascinates me about this reveal is that when Joyce and Becky went back home after the ToeDad… unpleasantness… well, okay, fine the FIRST ToeDad unpleasantness, the one where he didn’t get killed, Joyce was still thinking about seeing Tristan (in smaller letters) at church when they went back. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/countryside/
So clearly this didn’t break her entirely. As in, shocking though it may have been, it wasn’t enough to -either- make her doubt -or- instantly give up on him.
Which is interesting.
(Of course, as a literature nerd I also wonder how significant his name is, as Tristan is one of the great romantic heroes except that it’s only because he got accidentally roofied. Hmm.)
and we still see a lot fewer Iseults than Tristrans these days
of course there was all that later fanfic about Lancelot and Guinevere, nd that guy Arthur, to erase her from ancestral memory
It’s possible to continue to have feelings that you know you can never act on, even for a lifetime.
Well, she may have been hoping she could convert him with power of her love…
Having grown up fundamentalist and become SUPER LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE Christian, this is pretty accurate. For every Joyce, there is someone who doesn’t actually care at all and just does lip service.
Guess who gets away with it?
White….Male…Cis…Straight…yep! Boxes ticked.
Face: The Origin
You can pinpoint the moment a multi-year unrequited crush goes *pffbbth*.
sfx: Joyce’s brain, flying around the panel, deflating shrilly
When I first read this comic I thought fundies are people who want fun to die. I’m not sure if this is intentional
headcanon: _accepterd_
I mean it’s not where the term *comes* from, but it’s apropos nonetheless.
How old is Joyce here? (The sliding timescale is confusing me more than typical.)
The flashbacks seem to be spread over multiple years.
I’m guessing this flashback is within the last couple years, maybe even the spring before she started at IU.
no braces, when she had when she was 12. Probably no younger than 14-15.
This makes me curious where Tristan is now. Did he go to college? Is he still Christian? Does he have fundie brain rot? Is he out bangin broads left and right? Does he know what his (at least childhood) church did, or that it’s at risk of losing the building? What is he up to?
3 to 1 he’s the rapist’s wheelman.
Well that got really dark
WTF, where did that rapist thing come from? Is this is a fundie thing, where atheists are immoral and dangerous?
I think they’re referring to this one:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/ryan/
Ryan also claimed to be a pastor’s son and people have been trying to link him to Joyce’s church ever since.
Was Tristan a Christian even as a young teen? I’d think what he says here means he wasn’t. Good for him.
He was at some point. He was on that church trip and Joyce was looking forward to seeing him in church on her visit home, until reminded he was probably at college.
Whatever his actual beliefs, he seems to have not broken entirely with the family church as far as Joyce knew. I’d guess he went to Anderson, like Becky did.
Lots of kids/teens have parents who force them to go to church.
I had the impression that Joyce stalked him at church, going to all of the services etc. I thought they were in church now which would be a rude place to claim no one cared about religion!
Get him to the top of the monthly bonus comic poll and we might find out!
Not who, WHO as in the world health organization. WHO cares what’s the bible?
Well they shouldn’t. Really we don’t need bronze age health advice.
I certainly hope not!
So let me see if I have this straight. Joyce liked somebody, and that somebody started dating someone else, and then she got weirdly aggressive and confrontational about that relationship because she wasn’t able to express and own up to her own feelings for that person.
(Slowwwwwly looks over at Dotty)
what goes around comes around, it seems 😏
Excellent point.
? Dorothy has expressed her feelings the whole time.
They mean Joyce might have romantic feelings for Dorothy that she can’t recognize consciously and that’s the reason she got so ticked off about her dating Walky at the beggining, similarly to how she is acting in this strip with her former crush.
No, I mean that *Dotty* might have romantic feelings for *Joyce* that she isn’t acknowledging conciously, and that’s the reason she got so ticked off about her dating *Joe* currently, similarly to how Joyce is acting in this strip with her former crush.
Why not both?
Dorothy doesn’t know what she wants, and without a stated purpose she’s going through the motions of what she did before hoping to find what she lost. But the only way forward is doing what she hasn’t done before
Has she, though? Has she *really*, or is there a simmering undercurrent of unspoken romantic tension that she’s holding back from expressing?
That must all happen on Blurnsdays, I can’t get the Blurnsday strips for some reason.
It is an increasingly plausible reading, heh. We’ll see, I guess.
mind=blown
Tristan is my new favorite character. Who does care about the bible? Almost no one of consequence.
Joe Biden?
but does he though? or is he just religious?
DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNN!
LOL
You can see the few seconds it took Joyce’s brain to process that information.
Joyce developed a new Surprise Pikachu Face.
Anyone else hear the Beatrix Kiddo siren sound on that last panel?
My church totally drilled “you have to intend to marry someone or dating is a Sin” rhetoric into my youth group’s heads. A lot of them didn’t seem to care about it as much as I did, but I was a baby autistic who didn’t understand there was gray area about rules yet. (Now I’m Tristan in the penultimate panel, lol)
But like, tl;dr–I can really feel for lil Joyce here
Like I was barely 16, dating someone slightly younger, and our (*mostly his) parents were already talking like we were going to be Married someday and having grandkids for them. I didn’t even like him all that much–the church just pressured me into it because he liked me, and I just went along with it because I was trying so, SO hard to be a Good, Feminine, Straight Christian Young Lady ™.
Anyway, I’m like none of those things now. Maybe “good” on some days.