Telegram is a chat app and you can upload your own stickers, so at least in my circles, having personalized stickers of your sona is really popular. There’s a booming commission industry around telegram sona stickers
As I understand it, germs are also a big problem with corpses.
That said, that’s usually not a problem with undead, as apparently the same stuff that keeps them moving also deals with the germs. Zombies are sometimes a very notable exception to this. Other corporeal undead not generally known for speaking can also be issues at times, and mummies are specifically known for spreading mummy rot. But for whatever reason, vampires usually get a clean bill of health here.
This is probably some of Dorothy’s worst flirting so far, it’s such an easy hit and yet she missed by a mile and dismissed Joyce’s want of validation of her beauty, smh.
even with the laundry room masturbation plot point, i wouldnt’ be surprised if she and dorothy both categorized her as a ‘mom friend’ still and not ‘potential love interest’
The true test is do lady Sasquatches find Joe attractive? I used to avoid ‘squatch territory during mating season for just that reason, I didn’t want to test if I was furry enough, because I was unsure about surviving the encounter.
Yeah, everybody knows Squatchgirls are a riot in the sack. The only thing to worry about is getting your world rocked so hard it ruins you for any other kind of sex.
Eh, he’s probably a bit of a furry. Thanks to Disney and space jam and Captain laserhawk we’re all kind of furries. Goes double for the cat girl loving weebs
Even better, Sal will fistbump Joyce halfway through. Joyce will get those massive shiny eyes she sometimes gets and stare at her fist in awe for a moment.
I agree, I don’t want dotty and joyce to get together
They’re fine as friends but the two of them in a relationship would be disastrous
They love each other, but recently dorothy has a habit of infantalzing joyce a bit, treating her more like a child than an adult (which is unfortunate given the autism thing)
Now she’s just trying to teach joyce things she never really got to learn growing up because of her hyper religious upbringing, but she’s nowhere near as naive as she used to be and of course there is alot dorothy still talks to her about that she needs to learn, the trans thing for example, joyce has the spirit but she’s still a bit to learn and unlearn.
But I don’t know if that’s a great environment for a relationship to thrive, as it’s very easy even if unintended to use that kind of dynamic to your own gain like dismissing opinions and feelings of your partner because they’re so used to learning from you,.shed be more of a mom than a partner.
Course I love dorothy as a character, and joyce, but as a couple? That’s a train wreck waiting to happen
it’s interesting that joyce points out ‘glasses’ as a potential unattractive feature when walky teased her for maybe crushing on dorothy and jacob wears glasses too lol
That’s the problem about internalized discrimination: You still believe and repeat those thoughts and you don’t even notice that they are not true for the actual people around you. Your brain will just ignore the bits that don’t fit the narrative. It takes conscious unlearning to get through that.
Glasses aren’t unattractive as such (though i do have preferences for some types of glasses over others, and so do other people), but we have been taught they are (despite glasses being the most normalized disability aid out there). Yet, people with glasses thrive and are loved, because at the end of the day, attraction is subjective (on top of internalized crap) and there are more factors to someone’s attractiveness than what they wear on their eyes.
Money’s on them having someone with like two cells of the Rabies virus that they keep on a balancing act when they need to get someone literally foaming at the mouth for whatever they’re trying to build outrage.
I totally get where Joyce is coming from. Owning your sexuality, validation from someone we actually WANT the interest of? Powerful things, especially to those unaccustomed to it.
To be fair, Dorothy, some of us don’t find anyone sexually attractive. (But I would describe some people as hot. But not Joyce. But that’s mainly because of the style/medium she exists in.)
nothing wrong with ‘thicc’ girls but sadly for some ppl just being skinny/fairly slender is enough versus having other ‘attractive’ traits for some ppl
I was noting which words were emphasized in Dorothy’s dialogue in the strip, and yuyhyyhheeeeeep, I also was feeling shades of that. I feel like we’ve come past the point where it’s pure speculation, as of a while back. I wouldn’t say confirmed, but I do think there’s been reasonable hints of that.
Plus, DYW gets to toy with our feelings, which I get the sense is one of the perks of being the writer, *and* I’m thinking how Dorothy related to Joyce in the pre-Dumbiverse (Walkyverse?). Dorothy having romantic feelings for Joyce is a great reinterpretation of her previous role Re: Walky. Even if it’s jealousy as a friend rather than as a romantic partner, actually.
…But I do feel like showing Joyce how to do laundry does not feel *particularly* ramrod-straight to me. I could be wrong, and as I recall all of that was litigated a fair amount in the comments.
From how I have seen the situation between the two, I feel that it is more jealousy of friendship than romantic, and let’s see, I clarify once and for all that everyone is free to create the ships they want,
(I’m not going to be hypocritical, I still miss Walky and Dorothy, but it would be fun to see more interaction between the blonde and Jacob and that would make Walky a little jealous (I’m still angry at the idiot for allowing Raidah to insult her) and why not, let Raidah be 1000% jealous)
But I don’t really notice that kind of spark that they look for in Joyce and Dorothy.
Dorothy acted similarly unenthusiastic about Joyce telling her about her first kiss. These are big moments for Joyce and Dorothy has been pretty shitty and unsupportive
Why? What has Joe done that Dorothy’s seen that’s shown that he’s anything but a sex-obsessed meathead looking to bang hot chicks? She knew him before college, she’s had a long time to build up resentment over it all.
And I believe the first kiss was with Ethan, hence Dorothy’s disapproval, “pushing a gay man to date you” was a pretty heavy and legit theme for Dorothy.
I feel like *dating Joyce* is a pretty good indicator that he’s not solely a sex-obsessed meathead? Surely she’s the second least likely shot at a casual hookup after Mary. Actually doing the boyfriend thing is a pretty noticeable change in behaviour from his prior “sex: y/n?” method.
He did go on a date with her early on when he was definitely still the sex-obsessed meathead. With the avowed intent of upgrading her with his penis.
Dorothy could be forgiven for thinking he’s just playing a slightly longer game now. But I don’t think she is. Between a combination of her own issues and overhearing him while Joyce was treed, I think she’s okay with them now.
At a bare minimum, I would have expected Dorothy to recognize “something’s different this time” because of the comparatively large amount of time and effort he’s putting into this relationship.
I mean considering the fact hes actively made a point of not only not trying to get joyce to sleep with him yet, and is actively dating her rather than just flirting and trying to seduce her says alot
Not saying she has to LIKE joe for his past behaviour, but they all really need to just
Support joyce a bit more? Let her make her decisions without getting shit that is kind of unwarranted
They all forget that she did go on a date with Joe in the beginning of college, and he was a pig that pissed her off
So if she’s giving him a chance now just maybe she sees something the others haven’t yet
She may be sheltered and naive at times, but she’s not stupid, she wouldn’t give joe another chance if there wasn’t a genuine connection and if she hadn’t made note of that change
But how much of that do they actually know? How much is obvious the interactions they’ve seen?
Joyce hasn’t really talked about him changing with either of them or about the time she’s spent with him before they even talked about dating.
Mostly unsurprised, I’d say. And the second half is definitely supportive.
Not being excited about Joe finding her attractive could be seen as unsupportive, but like she said “water is wet”. And telling Joyce that she is actually attractive and many people would find her so seems better than acting all shocked that Joe does.
Yeah, I honestly read the second half as just being… general feminism? I agree she was awfully scowly in her initial response, probably because she still has highly negative associations with Joe calling women hot chicks, but the rest of the strip is not ragging on Joe.
Not even general feminism necessarily, as just reinforcing that Joyce actually is hot. She doesn’t think of herself that way, but in world she pretty clearly is.
I think Dorothy’s expression creates a tone of being dismissive raher than taking the opportunity to give Joyce a boost. Like if say “of course, you’re gorgeous!” with a smile. It doesn’t have to be about Joe complimenting her, you can just acknowledge your friend’s attractiveness and that also let’s them know it isn’t just this one guy who’ll find them attractive.
I agree, it’s very weird. Like, Joyce is excited because her boyfriend called her hot, she’s happy. Especially since her first ‘boyfriend’ was Ethan, who was gay and compared her to being like a little sister. This is a big moment for Joyce. “Know your value” is a very weird response to it.
But (maybe?) more seriously, this feels on-brand with how she previously viewed Joe, but I got the impression she had come around a fair amount after overhearing their conversation with Joyce hiding in the tree. But, maybe because Dorothy had also kind of given up on her dreams at that point (at least temporarily), maybe now she’s feeling differently?
Also, maybe she is jealous. Or maybe, because she doesn’t know the context, it sounds worse than it is to her? Or she’s just not aware of Joyce’s self-esteem issues, because of how she sees Joyce.
I definitely think Dorothy is jealous, though whether it’s because she has feelings for Joyce or because she just desires a relationship in general, that’s up in the air.
Agreed. Plus, it sounds patronizingly dismissive of physical appearance. Everybody deserves to be treated with respect and equanimity regardless of appearance, of course, but it’s also outright false to claim that everybody is “beautiful” or “sexually attractive”. Tastes will vary, but one of the harsh truths of life is that most people are NOT going to be George Clooney or Shakira-levels of physically beautiful. (I have no illusions about being one of those privileged few, either. :P) And beyond the “average masses”, there WILL be some people who just get dealt a terrible hand in the physical attractiveness department, and they will need to learn how to cope with that and emphasize their traits that they DO excel in.
Since DoA is a cartoon I’ve yet to see any truly UGLY physical specimens (except Toedad, I guess. XD Even scumbag Blaine obviously had his charms), but they must exist in the world too.
Dorothy doesn’t say that though. Sarah goes in that direction – and she’s wrong, as an aside. We know that Joe does rate some human females quite low.
Dorothy does dismiss Joe’s opinion, but she goes on to say that it’s because Joyce is attractive and that many people would find her so, implying that’s why it’s not surprising Joe does.
Are people somehow forgetting that Dorothy and Sarah both hate Joe? The comment section are like “wow, they’re not being good friends/they’re jealous” but they also actively hate this dude because of how he’s been for 90% of the webcomic.
Not at all, but even at 18 I knew the vast difference between “I don’t like your boyfriend, he’s liable to hurt you,” and “I disapprove of your choice of boyfriend, therefore I’m going to browbeat you into masturbating for the first time because I view you as a child who’s just horny/try to break the two of you up by canvassing our dorm hall.”
We’ve seen Becky be less-than-impressed with Joe but she’s not treating Joyce nearly as poorly as Sarah and Dorothy are.
And before you “Well, Dorothy’s spent more time with Joe!” me, note that Sarah is currently significantly more gung ho about this shit than Dorothy is, and Sarah hasn’t spent that much more time with Joe than Becky has. Becky also knows Joyce much better than either Dorothy or Sarah do.
Oh yeah, and the idea that people who want to and are trying to change actually cannot change is so insanely antithetical to the themes of this comic that* anyone who backs Sarah in any way shape or form actually does not comprehend the material. Like, they’re the kind of person who reads “Turn the other cheek” and immediately thinks “So I can get wind-up for the retaliatory strike, right?”
*: Unless Willis is pulling a long con and goes “Fools! You thought this was a comic about growth and understanding? No, it’s misanthropy all the way down!”
But I find that extremely unlikely, which leaves the sadder but slightly more likely case of “A bunch of people aren’t getting what they’re reading” the verdict.
More like, since Dorothy and Sarah aren’t readers and since Joe long went out of his way to keep up his original front, they’ve had little reason to think that he actually wanted to or was trying to change.
It’s not clear that Sarah still has any reason to think that. And we know that Sarah’s not exactly the most trusting and accepting person anyway.
Like, multiple things can be true at once. Joe can have done a lot of growing and it can also be the case that other characters justifiably doubt that growth based on their limited perspectives of it.
Also I imagine Joe would be the first to say that none of the women on campus are obligated to forgive him for his “Do” list.
In the comic where she identifies herself as “your friend”, it’s in response to Joe saying Danny told him not to talk to anyone; and in the comic where she “offers to spin it”, what she actually says is that she hates this story and thinks it’s being overblown.
You can dislike someone and still be against the idea of that person being targeted for harassment and aggressively sex-negative tabloid coverage.
Like, if Joe had been the subject of a scandal for his “Do” list, I don’t think Dorothy would have offered her assistance to keep a different reporter from going whole-hog on it. But in the case of Roz and the leaked sex tape, Joe was going to get targeted for having fully unproblematic, slightly kinky sex with someone.
None of those strips contradict the idea that Dorothy didn’t like him and hoped to get to stop being “friends” with him after ending things with Danny.
“Dorothy has a lot more animosity towards Joe more recently than at the beginning of the school year.”
Just a reminder that I did not say they were good buddies. In their early interactions, she does not display the amount of utter loathing she does during “Turning Saints Into The Sea”.
might be more the wording, joyce herself is fine with it but i’m sure joe’s also had his fair share of eyerolls talking to ‘hot chicks’ with dorothy observing
Dorothy was raised to be a lot more sex-positive (or at least LESS sex-negative) than Joyce. Joyce is working through baggage that Dorothy and Sarah have never had, and they’re both trying to make Joyce run instead of cheering her for her first few teetering baby steps.
They’re right, of course, that technically Joyce shouldn’t NEED sexual validation from a man to feel complete. But Joyce isn’t seeking Joe’s validation, not really — she’s reveling in the fact that she’s deprogrammed enough to even WANT to be seen as “hot” by anyone but her hypothetical future youth pastor husband.
YES. THIS. I think this is the best way to characterize what Joyce is doing right now, and why what Dorothy iis doing is spectacularly unhelpful. Joyce is just happy that the prospect of being attracted to someone and being attractive can be a positive thing.
You have to keep in mind in these scenes that Dorothy knew Joe from High School. Back when he was an obnoxious faux-ladies-man that she had to put up with for a long time because she was dating Danny.
Joe’s changed a fair bit in college, but Dorothy hasn’t seen much of that, and probably has heard all sorts of horror stories about Joe pretending to change to woo a girl, only for things to go awful.
I don’t have to keep anything in mind. I can say anything and somebody will bring up whatever I happened to leave out. That’s called outsourcing memories.
I thought it’s lingering exasperation with someone who for so long has been unable to see that she is an attractive and interesting person. “You’re really surprised by this? Do you not own a mirror?”
Joe and Joyce’s dynamic in the last strip and Dorothy basically going “Well, pretty much anyone would be sexually attracted to you” in this strip is why I eventually just three up my arms and decided to ship Joe/Joyce/Dorothy. I like both Joe/Joyce and Dorothy/Joyce too much.
Dorothy has a point that Joyce should place a higher value in herself to not go gaga over being called hot, especially based on her experience with Joe. Have to wonder how many times she’s heard girls back in high school squee about being called hot by Hunky Joe…
Of course, Joyce is absolutely right that she should be allowed to bask in it a bit, especially given her history, and doubly especially since she’s aware of it all. Bask in the praise, but keep a hand on the wheel too.
Thank goodness, it’s good to see that although there is some aggression in Dorothy, what she says is true, perhaps Joyce does something she will regret.
“Virtually”. I think the “who’s attracted to women” is implied. The point is that Joe isn’t the only person who might find her hot. She could easily find someone else.
They accepted the relationship, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to tolerate it immediately, but the truth is that Dorohty’s way of talking did surprise me, I mean, it’s something you would hear from Sarah.
She’s still low-key trying to dissuade Joyce from pursuing this relationship. This passive-aggressive stuff is even worse than when she was blunt about it.
MOTION SECONDED, ahem, cough, pardon me, I mean to say: motion seconded. I second the motion. I second the hell out of it.
I then took a moment to reflect, and considered that this was a strange thing to have such a strong reaction to, considering that – while I’m not opposed to furry art in general, I wouldn’t consider myself one. But then I remembered catgirls aren’t furries. Er, probably. But that does sound specifically like something a furry would say, soooo
(I think mostly the concept of catgirl!Joyce just sounds extremely cute, though.)
Furdom is like a spectrum. I mean, a sexual attraction to human is attraction to a hairless ape, after all. Add cat ears, and soon it’ll include a tail, then paws, and soon rio lepidoptera is designing you a $20,000 fursuit
I mean, all sarah has to do is say something like “Have fun having sex, i’ll make a giant banner and display it in the main hall saying “Congrats on the sex”” and joyce would prolly double down on avoiding it/maybe act repressed on it to the point where it’d circle around to her saying “Oh my god sleep with your gf already” lol 8D;
Sarah was a realistic “Introvert who was hurt trying to connect with people and now she’s septupled down on it” character in the first semester. Now she’s just Mike. Fuck Mike, and fuck Sarah for acting like him.
Yeah, they’re real bad at this. You need a Becky friend for this type of situation. Becky’d be like “heck yeah, he’s right!” Even Dina would be like “does this assessment please you?” And when you said yeah she’d be like “congratulations!”
Joyce’s friends are terrible, and I love them. I want to give them warm blankets and some tomato soup. With thick slices of fresh, airy bread with a crispy crust.
o3o maybe a strictly me problem but I don’t think I have ever once been called hot or sexy or cute without a hint of irony (or by a family member or someone benign like a friend) so like if someone I was interested in/dating me said it I’d be over the moon. I’d attempt a cartwheel. I might cry.
Same.
The only times I’ve been told I was anything close to hot or sexy were by the few women who preferred big men, which, while not fetishizing, did feel biased, and thus inaccurate.
Everyone else I was involved with either liked me despite my body or tolerated it.
It did not help my self esteem despite knowing that being liked for my personality was a good thing.
Eh. I wouldn’t discount it. I like bigger girls so obviously I’ll find a bigger girl hot but that doesn’t mean that my feelings aren’t true. I’m not stating objectivity here. All love is biased.
“I. find YOU. hot.” And if that’s cuz I find tooth gaps or freckles cute then that’s irrelevant.
That’s the the thing.
There’s a difference between “you are hot” and “I find you hot”.
One is pitched as objective (regardless of that actually being the case) and the other is pitched as subjective.
The feelings may be true, but that doesn’t mean they’re accurate or objective to reality.
Jessica Rabbit is into Roger because he makes her laugh.
Would I be happy if the sexy life sized cartoon character found me hot because I made her laugh?
After wondering how the hell she came out of the movie, sure, but that wouldn’t make me believe that I’m hot, just that Jessica Rabbit was somehow into me.
That’s just how my low self esteem manifests: I appreciate their feelings, but it will still feel like it’s more about their tastes than my looks.
I can feel wanted and desired, but I don’t feel hot or sexy.
But ultimately that’s about how I see myself.
Oh I agree that they found me attractive.
I find myself attractive; I have a handsome face, I like my height, and I’m built for cuddling, if I do say so myself.
But I fall a good deal short of sexy, and, for a long time, I had wanted to feel like I was objectively sexy, like some stranger could see me and want me off looks alone and that would be the reason they approached me, and I never felt that.
It took years for me to no longer crave that, decades even, but, eventually, it stoppe being something I wished for.
it’s weird coming from a family if you don’t go outta your way to dress up. Or like “you’re so pretty/handsome, you look just like your mother/father” which would make more sense lol
That said, half off topic but i wonder if someone had ‘conventionally’ attractive parents to where ppl are like “dude ur mom/dad’s hot”, if that’d give the ma complex/make them attracted to ‘unconventionally attractive/average looking’ ppl lol
Well I’ve had many friends call my mom hot and I recognize her as conventionally attractive and I don’t think that’s effected my tastes much. Well I mean I do have nonconventional tastes but that’s because there’s a WIDE umbrella of things I find hot.
Yeah i guess it’d only be an issue if you were attracted to someone that looked liek your mom (tho ppl do have attration to similar personality aspects i’d think), but i imagine that’d prolly be unlikely hopefully tho i have mild face blindness so i’d have a hard time finding similatiries as i would seeing ppl with differences but i’d prefer a pleasant voice over a ‘hot’ body lol
If this was (say) 2017-DOA, saying that Joyce has now become an objectified glorified baby factory by Joe of all people would be a riot, cause what did he rate Joyce in The “Do” List?
Hey, Joyce’s friends, how about saying “yeah he has eyes in his head, of course he funds you attractive” instead of “he would literally find anything attractive, even a pidgeon”?
Yeah, they’re kind of blowing it all off instead of listening to Joyce when she talks about her specific insecurities. I can relate to that (can not believe how little it helps when someone is saying “nooooo you’re not fat at all”, like yes I am?? How is pretending I’m not going to make me feel better?)
She’s saying it in a “I’m annoyed that I have to point it out” kinda way. I know she deals with a lot of Joyce nonsense but she’s usually not this negative about it. I wonder if she’s jealous?
Not required for furriness. A furry is someone who enjoys anthro animal characters- that’s it. Furries often but don’t always have fursonas, some furries enjoy smut art of said anthro animal characters, and some furries like to /do/ smut while in said persona. All of that except the baseline enjoyment is an individual thing. The Internet makes a WAY bigger deal out of it than it is.
If she likes anthro animal characters, sure, and/or has a specific anthro animal persona. Just plain “I like animal-shaped hoodies and sometimes pretend to be various animals” isn’t quite the same thing.
I’d say she’s probably into scaly stuff but actually the inaccuracies would probably just drive her mad. Speaking from experience tho, it can be easier to be attracted to non-human designs as an ace (or really just, fiction and art work in general. Cartoon people are perfect, real people are icky). We probably carry a good chunk of the monster fucker community
DoA cast as types of furries (assigned by a furry):
-Joe would be a technical furry by virtue of jacking it to basic straight airbrushed Lola Rabbit pinups.
– Joyce would be one of those peeps who is more into the social/creative aspects. her fursona would be a mouse. she goes out her way to clarify she doesn’t look at the porn!! ˢʰᵉ ᶜᵃⁿ ᵃᵖᵖʳᵉᶜᶦᵃᵗᵉ ᵗʰᵉ ᵃʳᵗᶦˢᵗᶦᶜ ᵛᵃˡᵘᵉ ᵒᶠ ˢᵒᵐᵉ ˢᵗᵘᶠᶠ but she isn’t INTO It into it hahaha!!! (that’s true for lots of people! she’s lying though)
-like 70/30 chance Dina just IS a dinosaur scalie. I’ve met Dinas before. Her fursona would be whatever her favorite dinosaur is I’m too lazy to look it up
– Danny strikes me as a guy who had a big Lion King or Sonic phase as a kid and had/has like funny animal OCs but doesn’t consider himself a furry necessarily. If he decided to make a fursona it’d be a humble dog or cat
I read the first one as Joe /is/ a furry a la Lola bunny, and now I will be there forever. I cannot read.
I see Joyce as a long socks cat girl, but I agree she “isn’t into it” and would “never ride a washing machine looking at it.” She likes looking at horses.
I think Sarah would dress as a classic hunter-either Midwest style for deer, or jungle hunting.
In the Old Universe, Joyce’s glimpse of furry fandom led to her subconcious casting her as a squirrel. (All the other characters in that story are what Joyce thinks they’d be, so aren’t indicative of anything.)
Joe: Jacked wolf/German shepherd/lupine dog. Joyce draws his fursona. Doesn’t really get it but he’s attached to said fursona from the get because Joyce values it.
Joyce: Raccoon nerd. Joyce draws her in a kind of classic Disney frumpy way that inspires one thousand fetishes. Everyone wants to draw porn of her.
Dina: Utahraptor. She uses the feathers as a crest/hairstyle thing exclusively and is deeply ashamed at the scientific inaccuracy.
Becky: Gallimimus who also uses feathers to have a hairstyle. Unashamed. Constantly being caught by Dinaraptor in predator/prey kink scenarios.
Sarah: I feel like she’d be an owl. Or a vampire bat. She’d play up being mean and scary in whatever she did.
Danny: Moon is right, this boy had a Sonic or a Star Fox phase something fierce. I think he might go Robin Hood-style twink fox, tho.
Sal: “Ah’m an armadillo. I ain’t takin questions.”
Sarah going “Don’t be excited your boyfriend finds you hot that’s just because you have a vagina and that’s literally the only bar” is maybe a little bit negging-ish?
I don’t think so. She’s not saying Joyce isn’t hot, and she’s not challenging Dorothy when she says she is, only that she should consider the source. I think she’s coming from a place of care – she doesn’t want her to let herself be buttered up by Joe, whom she’s understandably suspicious of.
What great friends, can’t even dab up a girl with “yeah of course, because you ARE hot dummy”. 😒
They just have worse social skills than fucking dry napkins istfg, learn to give a girl a compliment. 🙄
That is quite literally what Dorothy is saying. You can argue about the tone, its not a great tone, but that is the exact meaning of her words. She’s saying “you’re objectively hot” in Dorothyish
Almost more than the commentary, the expression on Dorothy and Sarah’s faces in panel 2 suck. I’d be pretty hurt by my friends hardcore dismissing something I’m feeling this good about, even if it is a fairly minor thing.
of the cast, there’s like maybe two people who would immediately recognize and possibly give an affirming response, to what Joyce is excited about. One of them is in church with Walky and Becky. And the other is lifting weights, conspicuously not in church.
Ya know considering Joyce’s issues she may be intrigued by the furry suits style. Let’s her completely cover up and still be sexy while staying unseen, pretending to be someone else
I’m old, and I have to admit that both this strip and a lot of the comments about it confuse me.
For a strip that is so sex/gender/alignment/preference positive as it is, the slap at furries seems a bit odd. I mean as long as there is a kink for being banged by or as a clown, or for women sitting on and popping balloons while naked, (and there is, for both and many other things) what it wrong with people who like to get their freak on while wearing an animal costume? I mean, not my thing, but live and let live… right?
And as far as Joe goes, why are so many people down on him? He isn’t raping the women he has sex with (except maybe from the POV of those who claim to believe that all P in V sex is rape, and what a sad group they are. He has, previously to his infatuation with Joyce, been a proud hound, and may well be one again at some point. What is wrong with that, exactly?
The strip itself doesn’t look to be making fun of furries (to my eye), just saying “there are people who enjoy non-human people in addition to/instead of human people”.
I dunno why the Internet gets so up in arms about it. Both because being a furry isn’t inherently a sex thing (sometimes it’s just “I enjoy anthro animal characters and/or I find it fun to have this anthro animal character persona for artwork”), and because, as you’ve said, weird sex things are /fine/. But gasp, oh no, how dare someone enjoy *checks notes* artwork of sex between a tiger person and a fox person.
As to Joe, the making a list of all the women on campus and ranking them by attractiveness is kinda shitty behavior, as is the previous treating women as though the only interaction he needs with them is sex-related. He has, historically, been a bit shitty. Though not really shitty enough to warrant the way some people act about him- maybe he’s hit a sore spot or something.
My problem with Joe – old Joe specifically here – is that he waved all the red flags for being a dangerous predator. Objectification of women. Talked about alcohol helping him get laid. Fixing virgins with his penis. Just really creepy stuff. Pushing his presence and sexual comments, even when he was told no.
But it was clear from the metatext that he never really was that bad. He wasn’t actually dangerous.
So a lot of readers focused on that to prove that he really wasn’t that bad (which he wasn’t) and that anyone who thought he was or who thought other characters were right not to accept him were the ones with the real problems.
Joe, when he had his lists was somewhere around 18. Even brilliant 18-year-old guys are dumbasses 80-90% of the time, especially when it comes to women. Looking back at that time, in an era known to historians only as ‘the 60s’, I am truly amazed of two things: 1) that women would allow me in their presence at all, and 2) that I could generate the brain power needed to move my arms and legs.
Fortunately, no college had to put up with me at the time because I was on a shortlist for receiving an invitation from the President to attend a party in SE Asia. I avoided this party by joining a group of like-minded people called the Navy.
My college years came sometime later in life at the age of 44 when my major concerns were 1) making it clear to my fellow classmates that no, I would not buy them beer, and 2) I don’t care how ‘bongoin’ their frat was, I wasn’t coming to the party and wouldn’t be bringing booze.
And as far as Joe goes, why are so many people down on him?
He is hot. We like hot people, it’s our nature. He gives what readers want, so it’s natural his attraction.
“down on someone” is think/say bad things about someone. “to be down with someone” is to think good things about someone. Shouting “Down with Joe!” means he’s bad. sorry about our weird language.
People are weird about furries, especially online. I’m pretty sure it’s just instinctive and/or to make themselves feel less like freaks for their own interests. I’ve seen the most degenerate weebs talk about furries the way normal people talk about pedos and Nazis. It’s a projection imo
Sarah and Dorothy may become rivals for Jacob. But it’s nice to see them completely agree in being against Joe. Protecting Joyce remains their priority.
Dorothy, I don’t care that it’s a low bar to clear, it is a bar that has been cleared for the first time. Like how “my crush/datemate/partner just kissed me for the first time” is a thing that happens multiple times to most people over the course of their lives, and is therefore quite common, but is still worth being happy about. Particularly the first time it happens to someone ever.
Genuinely my first read was “look, sexual attraction is never as big a deal as it seems like and you need to not prize that because it’s not important, here is a chart, here is a worksheet about value”.
Optimally speaking, I get that Dorothy is trying to say something nice. In practice, her specific language (and Sarah’s) comes across as too diminishing to feel like an actual compliment.
“Water is wet, scowling face” “low bar to clear”, “you could find that quality from virtually anyone”, it’s all dismissive, like it should be less exciting just because of her specific partner. The focus isn’t actually on Joyce’s enthusiasm, it’s on the (subjectively) sub-optimal person she’s enthusiastic about, and in a small way it feels like a shutdown.
Yeah exactly, this. This is the first impression and it’s bad, folks. Sure, Dorothy is saying that Joyce is SO SEXY if you look at it right and you solve the Zelda puzzle, but the delivery gives this bad impression and it gives it strongly.
*Jesus*, Dorothy, I expect this from Sarah “Our Lady of the Acid Tongue” Clinton, whose patron animal is the Xenomorph, but like…On you it doesn’t even read as jealous? It just seems…chiding?
Like…man, this is part of why I can’t really get into Dorothy/Joyce shipping, even as a big polyshipper! I don’t see the chemistry! I don’t see Dotty hiding her feelings here, I see her going for the Teachable Moment!
(And to be clear, teachable moments are often valid and all, it doesn’t make Dotty *bad*, but holy shit, it’s the direct opposite of erotic or romantic. It even comes off as bitter in a pretty un-earned way? Cause it doesn’t read like criticism of Joe, it reads like Joyce being sexy is low-value??)
I almost want next strip to feature Joyce trying this with Becky and Dina so we can see how they would respond, because I would bet money Becks is like “And he’s RIGHT baybee” and Dina is genuinely like “congratulations! :D” and then Dorothy can feel S H A M E
(Sarah would not feel shame because she is Sarah, her shame glands only activate when she has been struck down by the heavens for her hubris, and I understand and respect this.)
I mean I’m not into the ship either but like, this whole strip is just Dorothy calling Joyce hot. In a long convoluted Dorothy nerd way but she’s just calling her objectively hot. She’s just reacting like you usually do to your mega hot friend with low self esteem but in a more annoying way. She’s saying “you shouldn’t be surprised, you are hot. Realize your value (that value being hot)”
See, on repeated readings, yes, I see it. But it took me repeated readings and squinting at it to see it.
…I guess the lesson here is, once again, that Dorothy has no sapphic game. She is rizzless. She cannot kiss the girl, she can barely talk to the girl. Give up on women for the sake of your dignity, Dots, you have more charisma in innocent small talk with Jacob than you do with Joyce at all ever.
Why Joyce keeps saying she’s a dork and get impressed that she’s been called ‘hot chick’?
Like, inside DoA, she’s not unnactrative. She kissed 4 people (ok, 3, because Ethan) since she entered university.
If there’s someone that could be considered not so cute by others is Other Rachel, for example.
I’m sorry if I didn’t make myself clear. Is this speech of Joyce that I don’t understand.
Maybe if she’s consider a step by herself to get rid of childhood fears, ok, it could be that…
aw yeah, furries gettin’ a nod :3 I wonder what Joe’s fursona would be? My partner and I decided he would’ve been a dragon first, but overtime Joyce influences him and he changes it to something else. Maybe a dog or bear!
I don’t hear it so much but sometimes people like when someone finds them attractive and are told so preferably in a not increepy way or in a way that is trying to sell them something.
Dorothy: “Sure, I find Joyce to be sexually attractive. Literally everybody does! This isn’t some kind of special or meaningful thing I need to read into, it’s just NORMAL.”
Jennifer: “…Well damn, THIS feels really uncomfortably familiar. Lemme speed you through some revelations about yourself real quick, girl…”
So random thought. Since Jacob is just below frame, what if he pops up and looks at both Dorothy and Sarah and points out that what they just said was shitty?
PANEL 1: Joyce bounds up to her friends. Dorothy and Sarah look up, briefly surprised by her sudden appearance. Joyce declares: “Joe said I’m a hot chick!”
From Joyce’s perspective, this is a direct continuation of the previous strip, where she was delighted but also deeply amused by both Joe’s word choice and his interest. This isn’t the first time where she has expressed delighted incredulity that Joe could be attracted to her. She keeps teasing him for it: haha, you like me, that’s super embarrassing for you!
(Side note: This is very different from how Joyce has reacted to previous prospective romantic interests. When Joe first asked her out, she was pretty clearly deep in a “in love with the idea of being in love” phase, excited just to be asked out by anyone. When she and Ethan first started dating, before she knew he was gay, she was similarly excited to have any boyfriend at all. When Joe suggested that she might actually be able to steal Jacob from Raidah, she was incredulous and very flattered. Now this: I would argue that teasing Joe for being into her is the most relaxed about the idea that we’ve ever seen her be. It’s also like, a LITTLE bit juvenile, but not in a bad way imho. Just in a sweetly girlish way.)
PANEL 2: Unfortunately, neither Sarah nor Dorothy have this same context for Joyce’s words. While Dorothy has backed off begging Joyce not to date him and Sarah has (at least for now iirc) given up on trying to break them up, neither of them like Joe very much. And a lot of women don’t like being called “chicks”. Not to the point where it’s universally a terrible idea, but to the point where Joe has probably had to apologize for the word choice more than once in his life.
Even if neither Dorothy nor Sarah would object to being called chicks in general, I can’t imagine the associations with Joe saying “hot chick” are great for either of them.
So: Dorothy’s grumpy expression. “Congratulations. Water is wet.”
So: Sarah’s exasperation. “Yeah, you’re a human female. He’s gonna say you’re a hot chick.”
PANEL 3: …but not because she was super excited to have a boy sexually interested in her, imho.
Which is why she says what she says here. Not, “Come on, guys, I was having a nice moment there,” or anything of the sort — but a protestation that this should be making her friends laugh.
Come on, guys! Don’t you see the inherent absurdity? He called ME a hot chick! That’s funny, and embarrassing for him! He’s into me, even though I’m me!
This is a continuation of a sentiment we’ve seen from Joyce repeatedly. Look at what a ridiculous mess I am, and yet you’re into me! Ha, take that!
(I want to emphasize here that Joyce isn’t seriously trying to knock Joe down a peg for being attracted to her; her teasing seems entirely well-intentioned and Joe seems to be taking it that way, at least so far. But I definitely think Joyce expected Dorothy and Sarah to laugh at Joe. I don’t think this was a “showing off the engagement ring to the girls” moment, and I don’t think she expected Dorothy or Sarah to high-five her for having a boyfriend who’s attracted to her. I think she thought they’d laugh at Joe, in a good-natured way. I also think she underestimated how negative they’d both be about the whole thing, but I don’t think she underestimated them so completely that she thought they’d be happy for her that Joe thinks she’s hot.)
PANEL 4: Here, I would say, Dorothy’s priorities shift. It was one thing to be told (excitedly, but with no other context) that Joe had called Joyce hot: it’s another thing to hear Joyce saying with her own mouth that this is supposed to be funny, with an implication — steadily gaining volume — that Joyce doesn’t think of herself as a reasonable person for someone like Joe to be attracted to.
(I imagine, if Dorothy had been present for the scene where Joyce realized Joe was saying she stood a chance vs Raidah, that Dorothy would have been similarly concerned there. But she wasn’t; and I am relatively sure this is actually the first time Joyce had expressed doubts about her attractiveness in front of Dorothy.)
So, with growing concern: “Joyce, someone finding you sexually attractive is an extremely low bar to clear. You could find that quality in virtually anyone. Know your value.”
There is definitely an aspect to these dialogue bubbles of “man, is THAT what you get out of dating Joe? Joyce, you could do so much better,” but I don’t think it’s the main thrust. The main thrust, imho, is… a kind of belated damage control? Dorothy sees a problem that she previously didn’t know existed and attempts to tackle it from multiple angles at once.
Thus dialogue that is simultaneously telling Joyce she’s very attractive but also, with that last bit (“Know your value.”) potentially gearing up to try to separate Joyce’s self-worth from sexual attractiveness.
PANEL 5: Which, I’d say, Joyce can hear coming. Thus the gear-shift she does in return:
“C’mon, Dorothy, I was raised to believe I’m a glorified baby factory who deserves eternal torment. Lemme build up my self-esteem outta something.”
And by this panel you can see that all annoyance has completely left Dorothy; she just looks worried.
I think Dorothy has been struggling for a long time now, since at least Roz called her out all those RL years ago for not being more proactive about pushing back on Joyce’s belief structure, over how hands-on to be with Joyce.
When they first ate lunch together, it was with the explicit understanding that Joyce wasn’t going to try to convert her and Dorothy wasn’t going to try to convince her of the non-existence of God. Shortly after that, they went to a college party together, and Dorothy beat herself up for not keeping a closer eye on Joyce; and then Becky turned up, and Roz verbally lambasted Dorothy for not working harder to correct Joyce’s bigoted ideas, and later, possibly that same day, Dorothy realized Joyce had been dating a gay boy with the aim of helping him “ex-gay” himself. Could she have stopped any of that by being firmer with Joyce?
The dream sequence shows (and if you reread the storyline, you can clearly see) that Dorothy also blamed herself for Joyce being kidnapped by Blane; that she feels at least partly responsible for Ross’s death (because she tried to pit them against each other, and it “work[ed] too well”).
We can argue about how and where she’s overstepped. But I would say a core character conflict right now is vacillating overcorrection: she pushed Joyce to have her eyes checked, then got lambasted by Jennifer for not doing more to get her to take birth control for her irregular, highly painful periods. She tried to get Joyce not to date Joe in a couple of different ways, one of which was directly attempting to leverage her Mom Friend authority, and not only did all of them fail, but she was eventually confronted by the sight of Joe and Joyce being a great couple, right after her own failed overture at Walky, and realized both that she had been wrong about them dating being a bad idea and that she had no idea what she was talking about.
Here’s another moment where maybe she should push back on the way Joyce was raised. But maybe she’s already pushed too much and she should leave it alone? But also it hurts to hear your friend say this kind of thing about themselves…
Conflicted, conflicted, conflicted.
(Sarah’s line is just a punchline.) (Although I’ll be honest, people who rag on furries get my hackles up. If you’re gonna be nasty about people for the crime of being weird in a thoroughly harmless way, I just… do not trust you to treat either queer or ND people well.)
I don’t know if anyone’s said this yet, but Joe essentially also said, “virtually everyone would recognize you’re a hot chick”, but in casual conversation instead of as part of a scold.
Someone with a feminist and sex neutral upbringing reacting with YIKES to their friend being excited a notorious fuckboi called them hot is… not a surprising reaction, guys.
Miscommunications like this happen all the damn time, I don’t know why the comments section is determined to read every single interaction in the worst possible light.
I read this as Dorothy DOES think Joyce is pretty and so she shouldn’t settle for someone Dorothy mostly knows as a creep. We know that’s not what’s happening and I do appreciate Joyce telling her to let her have this, but I don’t see it as her chiding Joyce.
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“As long as they got a pulse! …or not! Pulse optional!“
Furry Check:
1. Is Joe in IT?
2. owo?
3. Does he have a Telegram account with custom stickers?
Bearing in mind this is me and not Joe but may still be relevant… 1. No 2. Hell yes 3. I don’t even know what that means.
Telegram is a chat app and you can upload your own stickers, so at least in my circles, having personalized stickers of your sona is really popular. There’s a booming commission industry around telegram sona stickers
You know I never thought about it before, but that is another reason Twilight is sort of creepy. Boning an undead being is technically necrophilia.
Let’s also mention how Jacob is like …15 while Bella is 18?
Not really sure why you’re singling out Twilight among the entire literature of vampire romances.
Isn’t the main reason why necrophilia is bad bc it’s desecrating a body and you can’t get consent? In any case I’ve seen Castlevania, vampires are hot
As I understand it, germs are also a big problem with corpses.
That said, that’s usually not a problem with undead, as apparently the same stuff that keeps them moving also deals with the germs. Zombies are sometimes a very notable exception to this. Other corporeal undead not generally known for speaking can also be issues at times, and mummies are specifically known for spreading mummy rot. But for whatever reason, vampires usually get a clean bill of health here.
It’s the pretty. Anything that looks that pretty can’t possibly be germy and gross. It’s like, against the rules or something.
What I wanna know is, who the eff is minding Jacob right now?
Hopefully if he calls for a spot at least one of them will notice
Although I will be delighted if the next comic is a joke about that
P.S. Cake or death?
DEATH
… eventually
–Dav, but first, a little snusnu
I’d recommend this clip from Suburgatory is what that’s meant to say
“You could find that quality in virtually anyone, even the person talking to you now.”
“well duh, obviously you’re extremely hot”
Time for Jacob to also chime in and say she’s not while avoiding complimenting sarah in case she takes it the wrong way XD
Feeling pretty sorry for Jacob.
You know what they say:
One spotter is a spotter
Two spotters are half a spotter
Three spotters are no spotter at all.
Okay, so it’s intended for dogs, but I’m certain it applies here.I didn’t know they said that but it sounds very apt!
“It was never that far from the surface, mate!”
This is probably some of Dorothy’s worst flirting so far, it’s such an easy hit and yet she missed by a mile and dismissed Joyce’s want of validation of her beauty, smh.
It’s almost like Dorothy isn’t even flirting at all.
even with the laundry room masturbation plot point, i wouldnt’ be surprised if she and dorothy both categorized her as a ‘mom friend’ still and not ‘potential love interest’
That middle panel punched me in the gut. ROLL CALL ALL MOUSIES WITH COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIPS TO SEX
Pros: they’re saying you don’t need a man for self validation?
Cons: they’re suggesting Joe is a furry. Or is furry, check his body hair ratio.
I hear his chest hair goes all the way down to his toes.
But also: what’s wrong with furries? Furries pay my bills
Love your art.
<3 <3 <3
Well, I suppose there might be concern that Joyce might feel obliged to buy a fursuit? I hear those things are expensive.
the Something Positive cats have visited the Walkyverse before
she might be able to get a deal on a used dinosaur outfit
–Dave, yes yes, technicallly that’s not ‘furry’
The true test is do lady Sasquatches find Joe attractive? I used to avoid ‘squatch territory during mating season for just that reason, I didn’t want to test if I was furry enough, because I was unsure about surviving the encounter.
Thereby establishing that it’s possible to be both extremely wise and bonkers simultaneously.
Yeah, everybody knows Squatchgirls are a riot in the sack. The only thing to worry about is getting your world rocked so hard it ruins you for any other kind of sex.
Eh, he’s probably a bit of a furry. Thanks to Disney and space jam and Captain laserhawk we’re all kind of furries. Goes double for the cat girl loving weebs
I’ve got a thousand internet points that says Joe and Joyce have sex before Sal and Danny.
It’s going to be a literal race to Danny and Joe’s dorm.
It’s ok, Dorothy and Joe won that race long ago xd
I’m not taking that bet.
… It’s DoA preview, right?
They’ll have sex together. Top bunk Bottom bunk. And Joe will fistbump Danny halfway through.
Even better, Sal will fistbump Joyce halfway through. Joyce will get those massive shiny eyes she sometimes gets and stare at her fist in awe for a moment.
“Joe. I’m sorry. What you’re doing is amazing but I think that fist bump just topped it.”
“Understandable. I’ll temper my expectations for the big finish.”
Dottie’s “Oh, you’re hot all right. And other people find you hot.”
Dottie is other people.
There’s no plead the 5th choice.
This was meant for the post below mine.
Hot take: I really hope Dorothy doesn’t develop internalized homophobia from this.
Hot Take: I really hope Dorothy and Joyce don’t get together in the future.
Hot take: Jacob and Joe should make out to re-boost Joyce’s mood
In these here parts, that take is colder than Indiana winters. 😀
Is a take “hot” if it’s actually the non-problematic one? Dorothy has serious issues about Joyce’s sexuality.
There are DOZENS of us.
I agree, I don’t want dotty and joyce to get together
They’re fine as friends but the two of them in a relationship would be disastrous
They love each other, but recently dorothy has a habit of infantalzing joyce a bit, treating her more like a child than an adult (which is unfortunate given the autism thing)
Now she’s just trying to teach joyce things she never really got to learn growing up because of her hyper religious upbringing, but she’s nowhere near as naive as she used to be and of course there is alot dorothy still talks to her about that she needs to learn, the trans thing for example, joyce has the spirit but she’s still a bit to learn and unlearn.
But I don’t know if that’s a great environment for a relationship to thrive, as it’s very easy even if unintended to use that kind of dynamic to your own gain like dismissing opinions and feelings of your partner because they’re so used to learning from you,.shed be more of a mom than a partner.
Course I love dorothy as a character, and joyce, but as a couple? That’s a train wreck waiting to happen
Train wreck, so it -must- happen. And Dorothy will escape by going to Yale.
Agreed. Do NOT date your mentor/mentee. This will not be an equal relationship. :/
Same, honestly, Yotomoe. I’m so, so tired of the whole ‘no one is allowed to be close friends without sex involved’ thing.
SAME
oh no, not jason hold on
one more time
no
it’s interesting that joyce points out ‘glasses’ as a potential unattractive feature when walky teased her for maybe crushing on dorothy and jacob wears glasses too lol
That’s the problem about internalized discrimination: You still believe and repeat those thoughts and you don’t even notice that they are not true for the actual people around you. Your brain will just ignore the bits that don’t fit the narrative. It takes conscious unlearning to get through that.
Glasses aren’t unattractive as such (though i do have preferences for some types of glasses over others, and so do other people), but we have been taught they are (despite glasses being the most normalized disability aid out there). Yet, people with glasses thrive and are loved, because at the end of the day, attraction is subjective (on top of internalized crap) and there are more factors to someone’s attractiveness than what they wear on their eyes.
The results of the poll thus far are utterly unsurprising.
But the issue is that it doesn’t specify what I have the sexual lust for.
That’s true, but you could always rectify that here in the comments.
You might even give Amber fresh material to work with
Water isnt wet
Dorothy, on the other hand…
In order for something to be wet, water must be touching it. Water is touching water. Therefore water is wet.
Hydrophobic
Now there’s a niche group. I wonder if Faux News gives hydrophobes any airtime.
Money’s on them having someone with like two cells of the Rabies virus that they keep on a balancing act when they need to get someone literally foaming at the mouth for whatever they’re trying to build outrage.
Damn oilnormativity!
Does he get wet
Or does water get him
Molecule Man, Molecule Man
Let her enjoy receiving a compliment!!!
…hi, Jacob’s hands. I recommend you not drop the weights at this time
Jacob: “……….help………..”
“Glenn Glenn Glenn Glenn Glenn!”
I was actually glad to see his hands back in frame in the last panel.
This whole strip, especially the last panel, is Dumbing of Age in a nutshell.
I totally get where Joyce is coming from. Owning your sexuality, validation from someone we actually WANT the interest of? Powerful things, especially to those unaccustomed to it.
Cue roz coming in and saying that dorothy’s slut shaming again xD;
Or Malaya sticking her head into frame and yelling “FAKEY!”.
…for no particular reason.
To be fair, Dorothy, some of us don’t find anyone sexually attractive. (But I would describe some people as hot. But not Joyce. But that’s mainly because of the style/medium she exists in.)
nothing wrong with ‘thicc’ girls but sadly for some ppl just being skinny/fairly slender is enough versus having other ‘attractive’ traits for some ppl
Was this meant as a reply to me? Feels unrelated.
Oh, Dorothy. You got it bad.
As far as Sarah’s furry speculation, it’s not the first time
1d
Dorothy: Literally everyone finds you sexually attractive.
Sarah: …Even you?
Dorothy: Especially me-
Joyce: …*turns pitch red*
Haha, yes! I want to see this.
I was noting which words were emphasized in Dorothy’s dialogue in the strip, and yuyhyyhheeeeeep, I also was feeling shades of that. I feel like we’ve come past the point where it’s pure speculation, as of a while back. I wouldn’t say confirmed, but I do think there’s been reasonable hints of that.
Plus, DYW gets to toy with our feelings, which I get the sense is one of the perks of being the writer, *and* I’m thinking how Dorothy related to Joyce in the pre-Dumbiverse (Walkyverse?). Dorothy having romantic feelings for Joyce is a great reinterpretation of her previous role Re: Walky. Even if it’s jealousy as a friend rather than as a romantic partner, actually.
…But I do feel like showing Joyce how to do laundry does not feel *particularly* ramrod-straight to me. I could be wrong, and as I recall all of that was litigated a fair amount in the comments.
From how I have seen the situation between the two, I feel that it is more jealousy of friendship than romantic, and let’s see, I clarify once and for all that everyone is free to create the ships they want,
(I’m not going to be hypocritical, I still miss Walky and Dorothy, but it would be fun to see more interaction between the blonde and Jacob and that would make Walky a little jealous (I’m still angry at the idiot for allowing Raidah to insult her) and why not, let Raidah be 1000% jealous)
But I don’t really notice that kind of spark that they look for in Joyce and Dorothy.
Pitch red? Is that a thing?
Pitch isn’t red. It’s black.
the uranium in pitchblende (you know. the fine artisanal stuff you can make homemade expensive spicy pitch from) is occasionally gamma-colored
–Dave, tasting a rainbow
Someone make the fanart.
Bashir and Garak at Quark’s.
Wow how supportive.
Dorothy acted similarly unenthusiastic about Joyce telling her about her first kiss. These are big moments for Joyce and Dorothy has been pretty shitty and unsupportive
wasn’t joyce’s first kiss technically with ethan or another guy? i assume dorothy would be over disapproving of joe by now
Why? What has Joe done that Dorothy’s seen that’s shown that he’s anything but a sex-obsessed meathead looking to bang hot chicks? She knew him before college, she’s had a long time to build up resentment over it all.
And I believe the first kiss was with Ethan, hence Dorothy’s disapproval, “pushing a gay man to date you” was a pretty heavy and legit theme for Dorothy.
I feel like *dating Joyce* is a pretty good indicator that he’s not solely a sex-obsessed meathead? Surely she’s the second least likely shot at a casual hookup after Mary. Actually doing the boyfriend thing is a pretty noticeable change in behaviour from his prior “sex: y/n?” method.
…wouldn’t exactly shock me that Dorothy knew someone not that unlike pre-Athiesm Joyce who fell for Joe. >_>
He did go on a date with her early on when he was definitely still the sex-obsessed meathead. With the avowed intent of upgrading her with his penis.
Dorothy could be forgiven for thinking he’s just playing a slightly longer game now. But I don’t think she is. Between a combination of her own issues and overhearing him while Joyce was treed, I think she’s okay with them now.
Okay might be a stretch, she’s definantely tolerating him
She overheard at least part of the conversation where Joe talked Joyce down from her anxieties (and a tree).
https://www.dumbingofage.com/backdown/
At a bare minimum, I would have expected Dorothy to recognize “something’s different this time” because of the comparatively large amount of time and effort he’s putting into this relationship.
I mean considering the fact hes actively made a point of not only not trying to get joyce to sleep with him yet, and is actively dating her rather than just flirting and trying to seduce her says alot
Not saying she has to LIKE joe for his past behaviour, but they all really need to just
Support joyce a bit more? Let her make her decisions without getting shit that is kind of unwarranted
They all forget that she did go on a date with Joe in the beginning of college, and he was a pig that pissed her off
So if she’s giving him a chance now just maybe she sees something the others haven’t yet
She may be sheltered and naive at times, but she’s not stupid, she wouldn’t give joe another chance if there wasn’t a genuine connection and if she hadn’t made note of that change
Hard for Dorothy to “remember” something that happened before she and Joyce were friends.
Joe asked Joyce out in December of 2010; Joyce and Dorothy had lunch together for the first time with Dorothy asking Joyce to pls not try to convert her in June of 2011.
But how much of that do they actually know? How much is obvious the interactions they’ve seen?
Joyce hasn’t really talked about him changing with either of them or about the time she’s spent with him before they even talked about dating.
Joe isn’t even the first person in this room to have kissed Joyce.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-10/01-birthday-pursuit/rushed/
I mean her first kiss was a gay man. Which she knew about. She deserved some shit
There is definitely a hint of bitterness and resentment seeping from Dorothy.
Mostly unsurprised, I’d say. And the second half is definitely supportive.
Not being excited about Joe finding her attractive could be seen as unsupportive, but like she said “water is wet”. And telling Joyce that she is actually attractive and many people would find her so seems better than acting all shocked that Joe does.
Yeah, I honestly read the second half as just being… general feminism? I agree she was awfully scowly in her initial response, probably because she still has highly negative associations with Joe calling women hot chicks, but the rest of the strip is not ragging on Joe.
Not even general feminism necessarily, as just reinforcing that Joyce actually is hot. She doesn’t think of herself that way, but in world she pretty clearly is.
I think Dorothy’s expression creates a tone of being dismissive raher than taking the opportunity to give Joyce a boost. Like if say “of course, you’re gorgeous!” with a smile. It doesn’t have to be about Joe complimenting her, you can just acknowledge your friend’s attractiveness and that also let’s them know it isn’t just this one guy who’ll find them attractive.
Can anyone else feel this scene inevitably careening towards a hilarious and/or tragic spotting failure?
I was just thinking that!
I found the sight of Jacob’s hands in the last panel hilarious. He’s still there, still trying to work out, trying really hard not to laugh probably.
Is it me, or is Dorothy being weirdly unsupportive about this? It feels like she’s spinning it as a negative somehow.
I agree, it’s very weird. Like, Joyce is excited because her boyfriend called her hot, she’s happy. Especially since her first ‘boyfriend’ was Ethan, who was gay and compared her to being like a little sister. This is a big moment for Joyce. “Know your value” is a very weird response to it.
I mean, Dorothy *is* an anyone…
But (maybe?) more seriously, this feels on-brand with how she previously viewed Joe, but I got the impression she had come around a fair amount after overhearing their conversation with Joyce hiding in the tree. But, maybe because Dorothy had also kind of given up on her dreams at that point (at least temporarily), maybe now she’s feeling differently?
Also, maybe she is jealous. Or maybe, because she doesn’t know the context, it sounds worse than it is to her? Or she’s just not aware of Joyce’s self-esteem issues, because of how she sees Joyce.
I definitely think Dorothy is jealous, though whether it’s because she has feelings for Joyce or because she just desires a relationship in general, that’s up in the air.
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I agree. Not sure which one, but at least one of them.
She’s doubling down on being Joyce’s conscience/mom-friend in order to fill the void her shattered dreams and ambitions left behind.
Seems Dorothy’s still not comfortable with the relationship.
Agreed. Plus, it sounds patronizingly dismissive of physical appearance. Everybody deserves to be treated with respect and equanimity regardless of appearance, of course, but it’s also outright false to claim that everybody is “beautiful” or “sexually attractive”. Tastes will vary, but one of the harsh truths of life is that most people are NOT going to be George Clooney or Shakira-levels of physically beautiful. (I have no illusions about being one of those privileged few, either. :P) And beyond the “average masses”, there WILL be some people who just get dealt a terrible hand in the physical attractiveness department, and they will need to learn how to cope with that and emphasize their traits that they DO excel in.
Since DoA is a cartoon I’ve yet to see any truly UGLY physical specimens (except Toedad, I guess. XD Even scumbag Blaine obviously had his charms), but they must exist in the world too.
Dorothy doesn’t say that though. Sarah goes in that direction – and she’s wrong, as an aside. We know that Joe does rate some human females quite low.
Dorothy does dismiss Joe’s opinion, but she goes on to say that it’s because Joyce is attractive and that many people would find her so, implying that’s why it’s not surprising Joe does.
She’s not saying “everyone is beautiful blah blah blah”, she’s saying that she thinks Joyce is objectively hot. Just with more words
It’s true, I took that as a surprise and it’s not like Dorothy to say those things.
Dorothy still doesn’t like Joe even if she’s accepted the relationship.
Yeah she’s looking annoyed at Joyce but Sarah gets a pass
It’s weird in the way that jealousy can break someone’s brain. It’s a mix of being dismissive of Joe and floundering to compliment Joyce.
Are people somehow forgetting that Dorothy and Sarah both hate Joe? The comment section are like “wow, they’re not being good friends/they’re jealous” but they also actively hate this dude because of how he’s been for 90% of the webcomic.
Not at all, but even at 18 I knew the vast difference between “I don’t like your boyfriend, he’s liable to hurt you,” and “I disapprove of your choice of boyfriend, therefore I’m going to browbeat you into masturbating for the first time because I view you as a child who’s just horny/try to break the two of you up by canvassing our dorm hall.”
We’ve seen Becky be less-than-impressed with Joe but she’s not treating Joyce nearly as poorly as Sarah and Dorothy are.
And before you “Well, Dorothy’s spent more time with Joe!” me, note that Sarah is currently significantly more gung ho about this shit than Dorothy is, and Sarah hasn’t spent that much more time with Joe than Becky has. Becky also knows Joyce much better than either Dorothy or Sarah do.
Oh yeah, and the idea that people who want to and are trying to change actually cannot change is so insanely antithetical to the themes of this comic that* anyone who backs Sarah in any way shape or form actually does not comprehend the material. Like, they’re the kind of person who reads “Turn the other cheek” and immediately thinks “So I can get wind-up for the retaliatory strike, right?”
*: Unless Willis is pulling a long con and goes “Fools! You thought this was a comic about growth and understanding? No, it’s misanthropy all the way down!”
But I find that extremely unlikely, which leaves the sadder but slightly more likely case of “A bunch of people aren’t getting what they’re reading” the verdict.
More like, since Dorothy and Sarah aren’t readers and since Joe long went out of his way to keep up his original front, they’ve had little reason to think that he actually wanted to or was trying to change.
It’s not clear that Sarah still has any reason to think that. And we know that Sarah’s not exactly the most trusting and accepting person anyway.
This exactly.
Like, multiple things can be true at once. Joe can have done a lot of growing and it can also be the case that other characters justifiably doubt that growth based on their limited perspectives of it.
Also I imagine Joe would be the first to say that none of the women on campus are obligated to forgive him for his “Do” list.
Dorothy has a lot more animosity towards Joe more recently than at the beginning of the school year. Because now he’s a rival.
This is Dorothy having an unreliable memory.
Dorothy and Joe interacting earlier in the school year, including when she offered to spin a news article to help him because they were friends.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/dorothy+joe/page/11/
I think that’s a bit of a reach.
In the comic where she identifies herself as “your friend”, it’s in response to Joe saying Danny told him not to talk to anyone; and in the comic where she “offers to spin it”, what she actually says is that she hates this story and thinks it’s being overblown.
You can dislike someone and still be against the idea of that person being targeted for harassment and aggressively sex-negative tabloid coverage.
Like, if Joe had been the subject of a scandal for his “Do” list, I don’t think Dorothy would have offered her assistance to keep a different reporter from going whole-hog on it. But in the case of Roz and the leaked sex tape, Joe was going to get targeted for having fully unproblematic, slightly kinky sex with someone.
None of those strips contradict the idea that Dorothy didn’t like him and hoped to get to stop being “friends” with him after ending things with Danny.
“Dorothy has a lot more animosity towards Joe more recently than at the beginning of the school year.”
Just a reminder that I did not say they were good buddies. In their early interactions, she does not display the amount of utter loathing she does during “Turning Saints Into The Sea”.
“Dorothy and Joe interacting earlier in the school year, including when she offered to spin a news article to help him because they were friends.”
^ this is the bit I called a stretch, for the reasons I gave.
ok. the reasons you gave did not convince me.
Fair enough! Agree to disagree.
might be more the wording, joyce herself is fine with it but i’m sure joe’s also had his fair share of eyerolls talking to ‘hot chicks’ with dorothy observing
You could maybe read it that way, but I don’t think she’s trying to bury Joyce here.
Sarah, however, absolutely is
Isn’t it obvious? She’s feeling chucked by Joe. 😀
But for reals a majority of the cast still has sentiment about it due to Joe’s infamy as a horn dog.
*cucked. could have sworn i typed that right
Dorothy was raised to be a lot more sex-positive (or at least LESS sex-negative) than Joyce. Joyce is working through baggage that Dorothy and Sarah have never had, and they’re both trying to make Joyce run instead of cheering her for her first few teetering baby steps.
They’re right, of course, that technically Joyce shouldn’t NEED sexual validation from a man to feel complete. But Joyce isn’t seeking Joe’s validation, not really — she’s reveling in the fact that she’s deprogrammed enough to even WANT to be seen as “hot” by anyone but her hypothetical future youth pastor husband.
YES. THIS. I think this is the best way to characterize what Joyce is doing right now, and why what Dorothy iis doing is spectacularly unhelpful. Joyce is just happy that the prospect of being attracted to someone and being attractive can be a positive thing.
You have to keep in mind in these scenes that Dorothy knew Joe from High School. Back when he was an obnoxious faux-ladies-man that she had to put up with for a long time because she was dating Danny.
Joe’s changed a fair bit in college, but Dorothy hasn’t seen much of that, and probably has heard all sorts of horror stories about Joe pretending to change to woo a girl, only for things to go awful.
I don’t have to keep anything in mind. I can say anything and somebody will bring up whatever I happened to leave out. That’s called outsourcing memories.
I heard she probably didn’t hear all sorts of horror stories where that happened.
I thought it’s lingering exasperation with someone who for so long has been unable to see that she is an attractive and interesting person. “You’re really surprised by this? Do you not own a mirror?”
That’s definitely a lot of it, especially for Dorothy. Sarah goes off on Joe, but Dorothy focuses on “Yes Joyce, you’re hot.”
Probably with some lingering suspicion of Joe making her want to reinforce that he isn’t the only one who might be attracted to her.
+1
Joe and Joyce’s dynamic in the last strip and Dorothy basically going “Well, pretty much anyone would be sexually attracted to you” in this strip is why I eventually just three up my arms and decided to ship Joe/Joyce/Dorothy. I like both Joe/Joyce and Dorothy/Joyce too much.
“You could find that quality in virtually anyone” She didn’t find that ‘quality’ in her first boyfriend Ethan. Calm the fuck down, Dorothy.
Dorothy has a point that Joyce should place a higher value in herself to not go gaga over being called hot, especially based on her experience with Joe. Have to wonder how many times she’s heard girls back in high school squee about being called hot by Hunky Joe…
Of course, Joyce is absolutely right that she should be allowed to bask in it a bit, especially given her history, and doubly especially since she’s aware of it all. Bask in the praise, but keep a hand on the wheel too.
Thank goodness, it’s good to see that although there is some aggression in Dorothy, what she says is true, perhaps Joyce does something she will regret.
“Virtually”. I think the “who’s attracted to women” is implied. The point is that Joe isn’t the only person who might find her hot. She could easily find someone else.
Yeah Dorothy, damn…
Joyce’s friends are terrible and I hate them.
They accepted the relationship, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to tolerate it immediately, but the truth is that Dorohty’s way of talking did surprise me, I mean, it’s something you would hear from Sarah.
we did see previously that Joe brings this side out of her, especially in connection with Joyce.
She’s still low-key trying to dissuade Joyce from pursuing this relationship. This passive-aggressive stuff is even worse than when she was blunt about it.
I think it’s because Dorothy is losing her mind to jealousy and a nervous breakdown (not an excuse).
However, I do think Sarah is correct. Joyce should put on a kitty costume.
MOTION SECONDED, ahem, cough, pardon me, I mean to say: motion seconded. I second the motion. I second the hell out of it.
I then took a moment to reflect, and considered that this was a strange thing to have such a strong reaction to, considering that – while I’m not opposed to furry art in general, I wouldn’t consider myself one. But then I remembered catgirls aren’t furries. Er, probably. But that does sound specifically like something a furry would say, soooo
(I think mostly the concept of catgirl!Joyce just sounds extremely cute, though.)
Furdom is like a spectrum. I mean, a sexual attraction to human is attraction to a hairless ape, after all. Add cat ears, and soon it’ll include a tail, then paws, and soon rio lepidoptera is designing you a $20,000 fursuit
Well, most humans aren’t totally hairless; some men have quite a lot of it, actually.
Cat girls are furry lite. Gateway furries. You can either live in fear and denial (like most weebs as I’ve observed) or embrace it
wait tongue in cheek?
i mean as Carla said, everyone in the comic is an ass in their own way…
I mean, all sarah has to do is say something like “Have fun having sex, i’ll make a giant banner and display it in the main hall saying “Congrats on the sex”” and joyce would prolly double down on avoiding it/maybe act repressed on it to the point where it’d circle around to her saying “Oh my god sleep with your gf already” lol 8D;
Sarah was a realistic “Introvert who was hurt trying to connect with people and now she’s septupled down on it” character in the first semester. Now she’s just Mike. Fuck Mike, and fuck Sarah for acting like him.
Yeah, they’re real bad at this. You need a Becky friend for this type of situation. Becky’d be like “heck yeah, he’s right!” Even Dina would be like “does this assessment please you?” And when you said yeah she’d be like “congratulations!”
Joyce’s friends are terrible, and I love them. I want to give them warm blankets and some tomato soup. With thick slices of fresh, airy bread with a crispy crust.
“Lemme guess. Joe’s a wolf, isn’t he.”
He’s actually that tiger from zootopia
The kid that wanted to become an actuary?
The one on the train
Sorry, I’m drawing a blank.
“That one tiger from Zootopia who would treat me right.”
Well, he sure is hungry.
Where are they going to find a gigantic comedy bone at this hour?
Joyce is going to need a giant calculator to figure out how big that bone is.
Joyce knows her value, and it’s way higher than what they told her as a child/teen.
Joyce: Is him being a furry related to him loving ‘cats’?
Joe: I don’t wannt hear sh** about being a furry from someone who likes choir mouse boys.
o3o maybe a strictly me problem but I don’t think I have ever once been called hot or sexy or cute without a hint of irony (or by a family member or someone benign like a friend) so like if someone I was interested in/dating me said it I’d be over the moon. I’d attempt a cartwheel. I might cry.
Same.
The only times I’ve been told I was anything close to hot or sexy were by the few women who preferred big men, which, while not fetishizing, did feel biased, and thus inaccurate.
Everyone else I was involved with either liked me despite my body or tolerated it.
It did not help my self esteem despite knowing that being liked for my personality was a good thing.
Eh. I wouldn’t discount it. I like bigger girls so obviously I’ll find a bigger girl hot but that doesn’t mean that my feelings aren’t true. I’m not stating objectivity here. All love is biased.
“I. find YOU. hot.” And if that’s cuz I find tooth gaps or freckles cute then that’s irrelevant.
That’s the the thing.
There’s a difference between “you are hot” and “I find you hot”.
One is pitched as objective (regardless of that actually being the case) and the other is pitched as subjective.
The feelings may be true, but that doesn’t mean they’re accurate or objective to reality.
Jessica Rabbit is into Roger because he makes her laugh.
Would I be happy if the sexy life sized cartoon character found me hot because I made her laugh?
After wondering how the hell she came out of the movie, sure, but that wouldn’t make me believe that I’m hot, just that Jessica Rabbit was somehow into me.
That’s just how my low self esteem manifests: I appreciate their feelings, but it will still feel like it’s more about their tastes than my looks.
I can feel wanted and desired, but I don’t feel hot or sexy.
But ultimately that’s about how I see myself.
I do think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Whatever reason those people told you were attractive, they still found you attractive.
*told you you were
Oh I agree that they found me attractive.
I find myself attractive; I have a handsome face, I like my height, and I’m built for cuddling, if I do say so myself.
But I fall a good deal short of sexy, and, for a long time, I had wanted to feel like I was objectively sexy, like some stranger could see me and want me off looks alone and that would be the reason they approached me, and I never felt that.
It took years for me to no longer crave that, decades even, but, eventually, it stoppe being something I wished for.
So I clicked your name thinking I might find a photo of you and instead I found your fan art and now I’m starting to feel like Joe.
haha sorry some of them are nsfw but those are towards the bottom 😛
Also there’s no pictures of me in existence. Nobody should know what I look like.
pepperidge farm remembers
–Dave, \
…okay, that was supposed to end up as left-angle-bracket forward-slash spooky right-angle-bracket. sorry.
–Dave, clearly I have much to rediscover about this medium
This.
it’s weird coming from a family if you don’t go outta your way to dress up. Or like “you’re so pretty/handsome, you look just like your mother/father” which would make more sense lol
That said, half off topic but i wonder if someone had ‘conventionally’ attractive parents to where ppl are like “dude ur mom/dad’s hot”, if that’d give the ma complex/make them attracted to ‘unconventionally attractive/average looking’ ppl lol
Well I’ve had many friends call my mom hot and I recognize her as conventionally attractive and I don’t think that’s effected my tastes much. Well I mean I do have nonconventional tastes but that’s because there’s a WIDE umbrella of things I find hot.
Yeah i guess it’d only be an issue if you were attracted to someone that looked liek your mom (tho ppl do have attration to similar personality aspects i’d think), but i imagine that’d prolly be unlikely hopefully tho i have mild face blindness so i’d have a hard time finding similatiries as i would seeing ppl with differences but i’d prefer a pleasant voice over a ‘hot’ body lol
Dumbing of Age, Book 15: I Don’t Know Joe’s NOT A Furry
… … TAKE MY MONEY
–Dave, now I have to hear the, er, stretch goals
I wonder how Jacob is doing
who?
I wonder if Jacob will join this conversation.
Jacob reveals they’re fur-bros
his neck is choking on the weight bar while dorothy lectures them 8D;
He’s very focused in his thing, and will catch the conversation later.
They’re spotting him real good!
I am curious to see what he makes of how Joyce’s friends are talking her down, and what position he takes on it.
The nuance of this revelation is lost in this audience. Maybe that’s when Jacob chimes in?
Jacob pumping iron just off-screen, pretending he can’t hear any of this conversation.
… Joe’s fursona would definitely be a wolf.
Half expecting this discussion to continue into tomorrow’s strip, with a smash-cut to Jacob trapped under a weight, begging for help…
If this was (say) 2017-DOA, saying that Joyce has now become an objectified glorified baby factory by Joe of all people would be a riot, cause what did he rate Joyce in The “Do” List?
Zero. Minus. The Anti-Rachel.
Clock’s still ticking on that.
But see the next strip: “What was I, Joe, before I hurt you?”
Joe did make that one joke about wanting to know if it was morally okay for him to bone sapient cat-like space aliens.
oh, right. lol
Hey, Joyce’s friends, how about saying “yeah he has eyes in his head, of course he funds you attractive” instead of “he would literally find anything attractive, even a pidgeon”?
Finds* agh
this is just how it is for girls with body image issues. no one wants to help, they just wanna stop hearing about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, they’re kind of blowing it all off instead of listening to Joyce when she talks about her specific insecurities. I can relate to that (can not believe how little it helps when someone is saying “nooooo you’re not fat at all”, like yes I am?? How is pretending I’m not going to make me feel better?)
i mean, they prolly would be less harsh if it was someone other than joe, hopefully. even walky called her “not unpretty” lol
Dorothy is saying the former, Sarah is saying the later.
Yeah, read it again now and Dorothy does kind of say it in a convoluted way.
She’s saying it in a “I’m annoyed that I have to point it out” kinda way. I know she deals with a lot of Joyce nonsense but she’s usually not this negative about it. I wonder if she’s jealous?
Also Sarah, ain’t Dina technically a furry? A scalie? Whatever is the right term?
I don’t think dina wants to fuck dinosaurs.
Becky is a dinosaur.
Not required for furriness. A furry is someone who enjoys anthro animal characters- that’s it. Furries often but don’t always have fursonas, some furries enjoy smut art of said anthro animal characters, and some furries like to /do/ smut while in said persona. All of that except the baseline enjoyment is an individual thing. The Internet makes a WAY bigger deal out of it than it is.
If she likes anthro animal characters, sure, and/or has a specific anthro animal persona. Just plain “I like animal-shaped hoodies and sometimes pretend to be various animals” isn’t quite the same thing.
I’d say she’s probably into scaly stuff but actually the inaccuracies would probably just drive her mad. Speaking from experience tho, it can be easier to be attracted to non-human designs as an ace (or really just, fiction and art work in general. Cartoon people are perfect, real people are icky). We probably carry a good chunk of the monster fucker community
feather…ie? plumie?
It’s not a big deal or anything, but I love that Jacob is still just lifting weights as the panels go on.
So, Dorothy think Joyce’s hot, too. Ohh.
I try not to get overexcited about the potential Joyce/Dorothy ship because I don’t think it’s ever happening, but oh my.
relating hard to Joyce here on every level except for the sweater vests; i was more about the oversized graphic tee shirts.
DoA cast as types of furries (assigned by a furry):
-Joe would be a technical furry by virtue of jacking it to basic straight airbrushed Lola Rabbit pinups.
– Joyce would be one of those peeps who is more into the social/creative aspects. her fursona would be a mouse. she goes out her way to clarify she doesn’t look at the porn!! ˢʰᵉ ᶜᵃⁿ ᵃᵖᵖʳᵉᶜᶦᵃᵗᵉ ᵗʰᵉ ᵃʳᵗᶦˢᵗᶦᶜ ᵛᵃˡᵘᵉ ᵒᶠ ˢᵒᵐᵉ ˢᵗᵘᶠᶠ but she isn’t INTO It into it hahaha!!! (that’s true for lots of people! she’s lying though)
-like 70/30 chance Dina just IS a dinosaur scalie. I’ve met Dinas before. Her fursona would be whatever her favorite dinosaur is I’m too lazy to look it up
– Danny strikes me as a guy who had a big Lion King or Sonic phase as a kid and had/has like funny animal OCs but doesn’t consider himself a furry necessarily. If he decided to make a fursona it’d be a humble dog or cat
Danny absolutely had a huge Sonic phase as a kid. He’s just got the vibe.
I read the first one as Joe /is/ a furry a la Lola bunny, and now I will be there forever. I cannot read.
I see Joyce as a long socks cat girl, but I agree she “isn’t into it” and would “never ride a washing machine looking at it.” She likes looking at horses.
I think Sarah would dress as a classic hunter-either Midwest style for deer, or jungle hunting.
She just wants to be the horse.
lol sorry!!!
I think you’re right for Joyce though. Based on her Julia Gray she’d want her character to be a cooler species than a mouse
“Their fanbase is… Diverse.”
“You mean fucking weird.”
“It’s a matter of perspective, really.”
In the Old Universe, Joyce’s glimpse of furry fandom led to her subconcious casting her as a squirrel. (All the other characters in that story are what Joyce thinks they’d be, so aren’t indicative of anything.)
I’m not sure Joyce would be a mouse.
Walky was the mouse.
Joe: Jacked wolf/German shepherd/lupine dog. Joyce draws his fursona. Doesn’t really get it but he’s attached to said fursona from the get because Joyce values it.
Joyce: Raccoon nerd. Joyce draws her in a kind of classic Disney frumpy way that inspires one thousand fetishes. Everyone wants to draw porn of her.
Dina: Utahraptor. She uses the feathers as a crest/hairstyle thing exclusively and is deeply ashamed at the scientific inaccuracy.
Becky: Gallimimus who also uses feathers to have a hairstyle. Unashamed. Constantly being caught by Dinaraptor in predator/prey kink scenarios.
Sarah: I feel like she’d be an owl. Or a vampire bat. She’d play up being mean and scary in whatever she did.
Danny: Moon is right, this boy had a Sonic or a Star Fox phase something fierce. I think he might go Robin Hood-style twink fox, tho.
Sal: “Ah’m an armadillo. I ain’t takin questions.”
If Sarah’s an owl, she’s specifically the Owl from The Secret of NIMH.
That owl would be her jam, yes, absolutely
Sarah going “Don’t be excited your boyfriend finds you hot that’s just because you have a vagina and that’s literally the only bar” is maybe a little bit negging-ish?
“Negging,” at least to me, implies ulterior motives; I think Sarah just wants her to know the score.
It’s certainly mean-spirited.
I don’t think so. She’s not saying Joyce isn’t hot, and she’s not challenging Dorothy when she says she is, only that she should consider the source. I think she’s coming from a place of care – she doesn’t want her to let herself be buttered up by Joe, whom she’s understandably suspicious of.
Yeah, because Sarah fucking sucks.
And Dorothy saying exactly the same thing with longer words isn’t?
I don’t hate either of them, but they both have a real problem with knowing when it’s “Life lesson for Joyce” time and when it really, really isn’t.
No, Dorothy and Sarah are saying opposite things. Sarah is saying Joe would find any girl hot. Dorothy is saying anyone would find Joyce hot.
Yeah, it’s really weird how people are reading this strip like Dorothy and Sarah are one voice proclaiming the same opinion.
Reading comprehension 100
Those are about as opposite as two cars driving next to each other.
Opposite IS the wrong word, but “Joe has no standards” and “you’re hot enough to meet anyone’s standards” are certainly different things.
Sarah and Dorothy seem to forget that Joe has standards and ranks women. Joyce has a reason to brag, she’s in his high tier list!
It’s not her fault that the metagame is shaped around her.
A simple “Aww, I’m so happy for you” would suffice.
Joyce needs better friends. She’s genuinely happy about something and their reaction is to go “what, are you fucking stupid? you didn’t notice?”
Jacob died doing what he loved: Being crushed under a barbell while three hot coeds talk about their love lives right above him.
What great friends, can’t even dab up a girl with “yeah of course, because you ARE hot dummy”. 😒
They just have worse social skills than fucking dry napkins istfg, learn to give a girl a compliment. 🙄
Dorothy is basically saying that, but very rudely.
That is quite literally what Dorothy is saying. You can argue about the tone, its not a great tone, but that is the exact meaning of her words. She’s saying “you’re objectively hot” in Dorothyish
Also, like, the other person involved is Sarah. Sarah wasn’t born with the gene that says “give people affirmation.”
Almost more than the commentary, the expression on Dorothy and Sarah’s faces in panel 2 suck. I’d be pretty hurt by my friends hardcore dismissing something I’m feeling this good about, even if it is a fairly minor thing.
of the cast, there’s like maybe two people who would immediately recognize and possibly give an affirming response, to what Joyce is excited about. One of them is in church with Walky and Becky. And the other is lifting weights, conspicuously not in church.
Unerelated but well, the RL weather matches the snowy weather of the comic now 😀
Ya know considering Joyce’s issues she may be intrigued by the furry suits style. Let’s her completely cover up and still be sexy while staying unseen, pretending to be someone else
Joyce needs better friends.
I’m old, and I have to admit that both this strip and a lot of the comments about it confuse me.
For a strip that is so sex/gender/alignment/preference positive as it is, the slap at furries seems a bit odd. I mean as long as there is a kink for being banged by or as a clown, or for women sitting on and popping balloons while naked, (and there is, for both and many other things) what it wrong with people who like to get their freak on while wearing an animal costume? I mean, not my thing, but live and let live… right?
And as far as Joe goes, why are so many people down on him? He isn’t raping the women he has sex with (except maybe from the POV of those who claim to believe that all P in V sex is rape, and what a sad group they are. He has, previously to his infatuation with Joyce, been a proud hound, and may well be one again at some point. What is wrong with that, exactly?
The strip itself doesn’t look to be making fun of furries (to my eye), just saying “there are people who enjoy non-human people in addition to/instead of human people”.
I dunno why the Internet gets so up in arms about it. Both because being a furry isn’t inherently a sex thing (sometimes it’s just “I enjoy anthro animal characters and/or I find it fun to have this anthro animal character persona for artwork”), and because, as you’ve said, weird sex things are /fine/. But gasp, oh no, how dare someone enjoy *checks notes* artwork of sex between a tiger person and a fox person.
As to Joe, the making a list of all the women on campus and ranking them by attractiveness is kinda shitty behavior, as is the previous treating women as though the only interaction he needs with them is sex-related. He has, historically, been a bit shitty. Though not really shitty enough to warrant the way some people act about him- maybe he’s hit a sore spot or something.
My problem with Joe – old Joe specifically here – is that he waved all the red flags for being a dangerous predator. Objectification of women. Talked about alcohol helping him get laid. Fixing virgins with his penis. Just really creepy stuff. Pushing his presence and sexual comments, even when he was told no.
But it was clear from the metatext that he never really was that bad. He wasn’t actually dangerous.
So a lot of readers focused on that to prove that he really wasn’t that bad (which he wasn’t) and that anyone who thought he was or who thought other characters were right not to accept him were the ones with the real problems.
Meh.
Joe, when he had his lists was somewhere around 18. Even brilliant 18-year-old guys are dumbasses 80-90% of the time, especially when it comes to women. Looking back at that time, in an era known to historians only as ‘the 60s’, I am truly amazed of two things: 1) that women would allow me in their presence at all, and 2) that I could generate the brain power needed to move my arms and legs.
Fortunately, no college had to put up with me at the time because I was on a shortlist for receiving an invitation from the President to attend a party in SE Asia. I avoided this party by joining a group of like-minded people called the Navy.
My college years came sometime later in life at the age of 44 when my major concerns were 1) making it clear to my fellow classmates that no, I would not buy them beer, and 2) I don’t care how ‘bongoin’ their frat was, I wasn’t coming to the party and wouldn’t be bringing booze.
Joyce spelled it out awhile back. (And the strips around that too.)
And as far as Joe goes, why are so many people down on him?
He is hot. We like hot people, it’s our nature. He gives what readers want, so it’s natural his attraction.
I don’t like beefcake men actually. I’m down on him for his behavior. I like Jacob because he hasn’t sucked for us yet.
“down on someone” is think/say bad things about someone. “to be down with someone” is to think good things about someone. Shouting “Down with Joe!” means he’s bad. sorry about our weird language.
“down on someone” is oral sex.
go down*
Ragging on furries is an Internet tradition that dates back to at least the early 2000s.
People are weird about furries, especially online. I’m pretty sure it’s just instinctive and/or to make themselves feel less like freaks for their own interests. I’ve seen the most degenerate weebs talk about furries the way normal people talk about pedos and Nazis. It’s a projection imo
Sarah and Dorothy may become rivals for Jacob. But it’s nice to see them completely agree in being against Joe. Protecting Joyce remains their priority.
Judging from the mythology of nearly every human culture throughout history, being a furry hardly qualifies as a kink.
Animation made it mainstream.
Dorothy, I don’t care that it’s a low bar to clear, it is a bar that has been cleared for the first time. Like how “my crush/datemate/partner just kissed me for the first time” is a thing that happens multiple times to most people over the course of their lives, and is therefore quite common, but is still worth being happy about. Particularly the first time it happens to someone ever.
It being a low bar is a massive compliment, since it means her hotness is glaringly obvious. I’m not sure how other people are reading this.
Genuinely my first read was “look, sexual attraction is never as big a deal as it seems like and you need to not prize that because it’s not important, here is a chart, here is a worksheet about value”.
Optimally speaking, I get that Dorothy is trying to say something nice. In practice, her specific language (and Sarah’s) comes across as too diminishing to feel like an actual compliment.
“Water is wet, scowling face” “low bar to clear”, “you could find that quality from virtually anyone”, it’s all dismissive, like it should be less exciting just because of her specific partner. The focus isn’t actually on Joyce’s enthusiasm, it’s on the (subjectively) sub-optimal person she’s enthusiastic about, and in a small way it feels like a shutdown.
Yeah exactly, this. This is the first impression and it’s bad, folks. Sure, Dorothy is saying that Joyce is SO SEXY if you look at it right and you solve the Zelda puzzle, but the delivery gives this bad impression and it gives it strongly.
Okay, you two need to get back to spotting and/or drooling over Jacob and let Joyce get back to my ship.
*Jesus*, Dorothy, I expect this from Sarah “Our Lady of the Acid Tongue” Clinton, whose patron animal is the Xenomorph, but like…On you it doesn’t even read as jealous? It just seems…chiding?
Like…man, this is part of why I can’t really get into Dorothy/Joyce shipping, even as a big polyshipper! I don’t see the chemistry! I don’t see Dotty hiding her feelings here, I see her going for the Teachable Moment!
(And to be clear, teachable moments are often valid and all, it doesn’t make Dotty *bad*, but holy shit, it’s the direct opposite of erotic or romantic. It even comes off as bitter in a pretty un-earned way? Cause it doesn’t read like criticism of Joe, it reads like Joyce being sexy is low-value??)
I almost want next strip to feature Joyce trying this with Becky and Dina so we can see how they would respond, because I would bet money Becks is like “And he’s RIGHT baybee” and Dina is genuinely like “congratulations! :D” and then Dorothy can feel S H A M E
(Sarah would not feel shame because she is Sarah, her shame glands only activate when she has been struck down by the heavens for her hubris, and I understand and respect this.)
I mean I’m not into the ship either but like, this whole strip is just Dorothy calling Joyce hot. In a long convoluted Dorothy nerd way but she’s just calling her objectively hot. She’s just reacting like you usually do to your mega hot friend with low self esteem but in a more annoying way. She’s saying “you shouldn’t be surprised, you are hot. Realize your value (that value being hot)”
See, on repeated readings, yes, I see it. But it took me repeated readings and squinting at it to see it.
…I guess the lesson here is, once again, that Dorothy has no sapphic game. She is rizzless. She cannot kiss the girl, she can barely talk to the girl. Give up on women for the sake of your dignity, Dots, you have more charisma in innocent small talk with Jacob than you do with Joyce at all ever.
Yes, Joyce, Dorothy and Sarah HATE Joe.
As someone who has never been called a hot chick, I’m with Joyce on this one. Don’t rain on her parade!
Why Joyce keeps saying she’s a dork and get impressed that she’s been called ‘hot chick’?
Like, inside DoA, she’s not unnactrative. She kissed 4 people (ok, 3, because Ethan) since she entered university.
If there’s someone that could be considered not so cute by others is Other Rachel, for example.
I’m sorry if I didn’t make myself clear. Is this speech of Joyce that I don’t understand.
Maybe if she’s consider a step by herself to get rid of childhood fears, ok, it could be that…
Because she’s the Bible nerd who dresses frumpy in sweater vests.
She’s definitely wrong, but it’s understandable why she’s not confident about it.
So what I’m hearing, Dotty, is that you find Joyce sexually attractive…
Water is wet indeed.
aw yeah, furries gettin’ a nod :3 I wonder what Joe’s fursona would be? My partner and I decided he would’ve been a dragon first, but overtime Joyce influences him and he changes it to something else. Maybe a dog or bear!
I don’t hear it so much but sometimes people like when someone finds them attractive and are told so preferably in a not increepy way or in a way that is trying to sell them something.
Point is Sarah and Dorothy just need to just need to be supportive not break it down in a negative fashion or provide an analysis.
Dorothy: “Sure, I find Joyce to be sexually attractive. Literally everybody does! This isn’t some kind of special or meaningful thing I need to read into, it’s just NORMAL.”
Jennifer: “…Well damn, THIS feels really uncomfortably familiar. Lemme speed you through some revelations about yourself real quick, girl…”
So random thought. Since Jacob is just below frame, what if he pops up and looks at both Dorothy and Sarah and points out that what they just said was shitty?
Comic analysis—
PANEL 1: Joyce bounds up to her friends. Dorothy and Sarah look up, briefly surprised by her sudden appearance. Joyce declares: “Joe said I’m a hot chick!”
From Joyce’s perspective, this is a direct continuation of the previous strip, where she was delighted but also deeply amused by both Joe’s word choice and his interest. This isn’t the first time where she has expressed delighted incredulity that Joe could be attracted to her. She keeps teasing him for it: haha, you like me, that’s super embarrassing for you!
(Side note: This is very different from how Joyce has reacted to previous prospective romantic interests. When Joe first asked her out, she was pretty clearly deep in a “in love with the idea of being in love” phase, excited just to be asked out by anyone. When she and Ethan first started dating, before she knew he was gay, she was similarly excited to have any boyfriend at all. When Joe suggested that she might actually be able to steal Jacob from Raidah, she was incredulous and very flattered. Now this: I would argue that teasing Joe for being into her is the most relaxed about the idea that we’ve ever seen her be. It’s also like, a LITTLE bit juvenile, but not in a bad way imho. Just in a sweetly girlish way.)
PANEL 2: Unfortunately, neither Sarah nor Dorothy have this same context for Joyce’s words. While Dorothy has backed off begging Joyce not to date him and Sarah has (at least for now iirc) given up on trying to break them up, neither of them like Joe very much. And a lot of women don’t like being called “chicks”. Not to the point where it’s universally a terrible idea, but to the point where Joe has probably had to apologize for the word choice more than once in his life.
Even if neither Dorothy nor Sarah would object to being called chicks in general, I can’t imagine the associations with Joe saying “hot chick” are great for either of them.
So: Dorothy’s grumpy expression. “Congratulations. Water is wet.”
So: Sarah’s exasperation. “Yeah, you’re a human female. He’s gonna say you’re a hot chick.”
Joyce is visibly surprised.
PANEL 3: …but not because she was super excited to have a boy sexually interested in her, imho.
Which is why she says what she says here. Not, “Come on, guys, I was having a nice moment there,” or anything of the sort — but a protestation that this should be making her friends laugh.
Come on, guys! Don’t you see the inherent absurdity? He called ME a hot chick! That’s funny, and embarrassing for him! He’s into me, even though I’m me!
This is a continuation of a sentiment we’ve seen from Joyce repeatedly. Look at what a ridiculous mess I am, and yet you’re into me! Ha, take that!
(I want to emphasize here that Joyce isn’t seriously trying to knock Joe down a peg for being attracted to her; her teasing seems entirely well-intentioned and Joe seems to be taking it that way, at least so far. But I definitely think Joyce expected Dorothy and Sarah to laugh at Joe. I don’t think this was a “showing off the engagement ring to the girls” moment, and I don’t think she expected Dorothy or Sarah to high-five her for having a boyfriend who’s attracted to her. I think she thought they’d laugh at Joe, in a good-natured way. I also think she underestimated how negative they’d both be about the whole thing, but I don’t think she underestimated them so completely that she thought they’d be happy for her that Joe thinks she’s hot.)
PANEL 4: Here, I would say, Dorothy’s priorities shift. It was one thing to be told (excitedly, but with no other context) that Joe had called Joyce hot: it’s another thing to hear Joyce saying with her own mouth that this is supposed to be funny, with an implication — steadily gaining volume — that Joyce doesn’t think of herself as a reasonable person for someone like Joe to be attracted to.
(I imagine, if Dorothy had been present for the scene where Joyce realized Joe was saying she stood a chance vs Raidah, that Dorothy would have been similarly concerned there. But she wasn’t; and I am relatively sure this is actually the first time Joyce had expressed doubts about her attractiveness in front of Dorothy.)
So, with growing concern: “Joyce, someone finding you sexually attractive is an extremely low bar to clear. You could find that quality in virtually anyone. Know your value.”
There is definitely an aspect to these dialogue bubbles of “man, is THAT what you get out of dating Joe? Joyce, you could do so much better,” but I don’t think it’s the main thrust. The main thrust, imho, is… a kind of belated damage control? Dorothy sees a problem that she previously didn’t know existed and attempts to tackle it from multiple angles at once.
Thus dialogue that is simultaneously telling Joyce she’s very attractive but also, with that last bit (“Know your value.”) potentially gearing up to try to separate Joyce’s self-worth from sexual attractiveness.
PANEL 5: Which, I’d say, Joyce can hear coming. Thus the gear-shift she does in return:
“C’mon, Dorothy, I was raised to believe I’m a glorified baby factory who deserves eternal torment. Lemme build up my self-esteem outta something.”
And by this panel you can see that all annoyance has completely left Dorothy; she just looks worried.
I think Dorothy has been struggling for a long time now, since at least Roz called her out all those RL years ago for not being more proactive about pushing back on Joyce’s belief structure, over how hands-on to be with Joyce.
When they first ate lunch together, it was with the explicit understanding that Joyce wasn’t going to try to convert her and Dorothy wasn’t going to try to convince her of the non-existence of God. Shortly after that, they went to a college party together, and Dorothy beat herself up for not keeping a closer eye on Joyce; and then Becky turned up, and Roz verbally lambasted Dorothy for not working harder to correct Joyce’s bigoted ideas, and later, possibly that same day, Dorothy realized Joyce had been dating a gay boy with the aim of helping him “ex-gay” himself. Could she have stopped any of that by being firmer with Joyce?
The dream sequence shows (and if you reread the storyline, you can clearly see) that Dorothy also blamed herself for Joyce being kidnapped by Blane; that she feels at least partly responsible for Ross’s death (because she tried to pit them against each other, and it “work[ed] too well”).
We can argue about how and where she’s overstepped. But I would say a core character conflict right now is vacillating overcorrection: she pushed Joyce to have her eyes checked, then got lambasted by Jennifer for not doing more to get her to take birth control for her irregular, highly painful periods. She tried to get Joyce not to date Joe in a couple of different ways, one of which was directly attempting to leverage her Mom Friend authority, and not only did all of them fail, but she was eventually confronted by the sight of Joe and Joyce being a great couple, right after her own failed overture at Walky, and realized both that she had been wrong about them dating being a bad idea and that she had no idea what she was talking about.
Here’s another moment where maybe she should push back on the way Joyce was raised. But maybe she’s already pushed too much and she should leave it alone? But also it hurts to hear your friend say this kind of thing about themselves…
Conflicted, conflicted, conflicted.
(Sarah’s line is just a punchline.) (Although I’ll be honest, people who rag on furries get my hackles up. If you’re gonna be nasty about people for the crime of being weird in a thoroughly harmless way, I just… do not trust you to treat either queer or ND people well.)
Anyway those are my thoughts. Wanted to get them out in detail somewhere instead of continuing to ooze them in chunks in replies to other people.
Oh, good. Jacob is credited, even if it’s just his hand.
Dorothy once again accidentally emitting bisexual vibes
I don’t know if anyone’s said this yet, but Joe essentially also said, “virtually everyone would recognize you’re a hot chick”, but in casual conversation instead of as part of a scold.
Water is not wet.
Someone with a feminist and sex neutral upbringing reacting with YIKES to their friend being excited a notorious fuckboi called them hot is… not a surprising reaction, guys.
Miscommunications like this happen all the damn time, I don’t know why the comments section is determined to read every single interaction in the worst possible light.
I’d make a joke about Sarah being a secret TERF by her use of “human female”, but it would probably go over everyone’s head. 😅
Maybe she’s a secret Romulan.
I read this as Dorothy DOES think Joyce is pretty and so she shouldn’t settle for someone Dorothy mostly knows as a creep. We know that’s not what’s happening and I do appreciate Joyce telling her to let her have this, but I don’t see it as her chiding Joyce.