I read it as a sincere immediate response, where Joe reacted dick-first, before even reality-checking what was happening.
Sarah knew him well enough to select for him an appropriate lie. And now he’ll have to figure out how on earth to dig himself out of it. Whoops!
Most of me thinks Joe realizes how absurd Sarah’s offer is, and is attempting to respond with an over-the-top reaction to show he’s joking. Unfortunately, he severely underestimated how believable his reaction would have been for Classic Joe — “having his clothes off before he even gets through the door” is a little bit beyond what I think even he’d do but not a lot.
On the other hand, though, his eyebrows seem genuine and his shirt-tug in the last panel seems a little more guilty than I’d expect for a joke not landing.
I’ve how its ok to do this shit to men, but if the same were said about women it would be shut shaming. He’s never cheated on anyone, always got affirmative consent, and immediately backed off with no pressure if the girl changed her mind. Yet despite doing all of that he’s treated like a sexual predator all the time.
It was limited access at most. He offered access to anyone who he suspected might be interested. If I recall correctly it had an rss feed.
It was a list that was intended to be shared, and shouldn’t be papered over as a whoopsie. It was creepy and sleazy. It would be both of those things even if he didn’t share it and didn’t tell anyone about it, but the fact that he did makes it significantly worse and earned him a bad reputation.
It was the act of a kid who’s considered barely old enough to buy scrstch off tickets. It was a ranking of hot chicks by score. Not that different from People magazine’s sexiest man alive bit they do each year. Once again, if it were women doing it they’d be praised for being empowered, or at least not vilified. It was stupid, but not evil or malicious. And it does not in ANY way justify him being treated as if he’s a sex offender.
Yeah no, Sarah doesn’t just hate him because he has sex with a lot of girls. She hates him because he (used to) constantly objectify every woman around him and basically looked at every girl on campus as a potential conquest. That’s not the same as just being promiscuous
Also when his list leaked, it functioned, however unintentionally, as a map to every girl on campus for sexual predators, and did in fact allow Ryan to get to Joyce, though Amber stopped him. Not really minor, I get why Sarah is not forgiving. I like Joe and I believe in him and Joyce, but he has a hard row to hoe with everyone else and it’s his own doing.
As I recall, Joe’s list leaked *after* Amber cut Ryan to ribbons. Then he gave out donuts, saved one for Joyce, and she told him about Ryan and how Amber got him for good.
Not quite. Ryan was mad at Joyce for scarring him with the glass/bottle she smashed in his face, and Amazigirl and Dorothy for blasting his picture and sharing what had happened, and used Joe’s list to track them down. He was going after them in a place they should have been safe (their dorms) with a knife – and if Amber hadn’t wedged a folder into the door, disarmed him, and sliced him up, Ryan would quite probably have murdered Dorothy, unless she could outrun and outhide him; and Joyce if she froze against an armed attacker violating a safe space and was unable to disarm him by e.g. throwing books at his arms until she blunt-force made him drop the knife; Sarah, if she didn’t have her bat to hand to fight back with… as he is a sexual predator too, ruling out SA as part of his plans would be short-sighted.
Amber is a small girl who looks slightly chubby; she went right up to him and got the element of surprise because she doesn’t look like an experienced, strong, agile, fast, viciously violent fighter who will not hesitate to turn a predator into a pile of meat ribbons with his own knife. If it hadn’t been for that aspect to her, that she hates about herself (when not channeled into Amazigirl, who has principles, apparently… I think she trusts Amazigirl to know when to stop and doesn’t trust herself to do so) – it is very likely that at least one of the girls would have been seriously injured or killed.
It isn’t Joe’s fault and he didn’t make them targets – but he did provide neat directions to where they were.
ESPECIALLY after having been kidnapped, tied up and thrown into a cellar by somebody who apparently didn’t want to hurt them – somebody who made her and Little Sister more vulnerable to someone who did wish them harm is going to need to work pretty hard to get off her 💩-list.
Amber didn’t completely have the element of surprise – Ryan thought she was Amazi-girl, so should have known she was dangerous, but he had a knife and thought that would make the difference.
Promiscuity with consent and respect AND open communication about intentions (like “just so you know, i’m not looking for a relationship”) is GREAT.
Objectifying women (or people in general, but let’s name the structural problem as it is) is BAD.
Maybe that’s because he didn’t always immediately back off with no pressure. I can think of at least once he didn’t stop sniffing around until Sarah screamed at him.
He also used to say things like a drunker version of Joyce might have a sex tape, along with saying he’d upgrade her from a four to a ten and that he’d fix her with his penis TO SARAH.
He’s doing better now but if he didn’t want to be treated like a predator, he shouldn’t have acted like one.
I feel like maybe people are forgetting how bad Joe was, cause it wasn’t just him having a healthy and active sex life. Roz is more that type of character. Joe was the guy saying “kiss” every time girls fought. This isn’t Sarah being mean. Joe earned all of this. I’m glad he’s trying to improve and I like where his growth is leading but he’s gonna have to hold some of these L’s too.
Has JOYCE earned it though? Having her choices and life dictated by other people? If Joe is a mistake, and that’s still very much an if, he’sJoyce’s mistake to make.
Everyone in Joyce’s life seems to me to have a fundamental and unshakable lack of respect for her as a person.
For sure, it’s up to her, but I also can’t fault an older sibling figure for telling him to fuck off without knowing what’s going on. I’m hoping she’ll be over it by the end of the conversation but that crack from Joe didn’t help.
If anything the fact that Joe says he *wants* to change for her might be the biggest flag for Sarah because they all say that. Sarah doesn’t see what we do — she doesn’t even see what Joyce does — so she’s right to be sketchy
Agreed. The idea of “changing” somebody is the height of relationship naïvete. It’s very, very basic relationship advice to date people as they are. Don’t set your heart on changing big central things about them (such as whether monogamy/non-monogamy will be easy for them).
Not in the sense of doing something wrong, but she was terribly naive when she first arrived on campus. And the way she’s talking here makes it seem like she’s still that person. Her friends have always felt a need to take care of her and protect her, and initially she welcomed that role. She’s changing into a person who doesn’t need or want that kind of care anymore, but it may take some time for her friends to adjust. I understand that it’s not fair to Joyce and her friends seem shitty at the moment, but I don’t think all the blame lies with them.
She also welcomed that kind of attention initially. Remember that, after the Ryan incident, the big moment during the morning after was that she was surrounded by a posse of protectors.
These are the same people who are dubious about this relationship. In exactly the same proportion that they were protective of Joyce.
Not just terribly naive, but also immediately determined to find a husband and obsessed with romance. Never mind the fact that Joe used their date to “corrupt” her and make her more sexually appealing to him
Absolutely agreed.
Part of changing your ways is admitting and atoning for your mistakes.
He has hurt people and he needs to hold himself accountable for it.
If he does, he has my respect, for the change he’s making.
And so does anyone who’s not willing to forgive him and is still hurt. Just because a predator no longer is a predator does not negate the impact he had on others. Their feelings matter even more.
As noted, he kept a list of women by attractiveness. His reputation is well-earned. Sarah isn’t treating him like a predator, she’s treating him like someone who’s going to ultimately break Joyce’s heart. Not that it’s good that she’s making this decision for her, but she has a good reason to distrust him.
Well, he was very much about to cheat right here. And do you not recall the “Do” list? People have good reason for mistrusting him even though he’s grown a fair bit. And you can see that Sarah’s objection is that she thinks he’s horrible at exclusive relationships, which is what he’s supposedly in right now. This isn’t some gendered double standard thing.
It’s okay to do what exactly? What Sarah did? If this was centered around someone like Roz, and the guy’s friend tried to trick her into cheating, would that be slut shaming? I understand that it’s problematic, but if someone’s whole personality is having multiple sexual partners there’s bound to be concern if they start dating your somewhat naive friend.
Because he constantly harassed the women on campus and had to be yelled at to take no for an answer. Source: Sarah and Rachel
He also introduced himself to Sarah by saying he was going to fix Joyce with his dick. The problem with Joe’s past behavior wasn’t having sex, it was openly reducing women to objects and going on “conquests”. Don’t get me wrong I love him and he’s changed a lot but lets not whitewash his past and downplay the redemption part of his redemption arc
Honestly, Joe was never actually a predator but he sure smelled like one, so I don’t blame the women of IU for distrusting him. There was, for instance, the time he tried to pedantically hit on Rachel the instant she stepped outside her dorm room. She stayed pretty calm, but honestly if someone did that in real life I think it would be seen as downright scary.
Early series Joe honestly reminds me of a lot of cocky, strident young men I’ve known; they don’t actively mean harm but aren’t self-aware enough to even realize their actions can *cause* harm.
Looking at all of Joe’s past comments, I’d say he’s a pretty big shithead. I can’t imagine him actually cleaning up his act longterm for Joyce. And I don’t mean the sleeping around, I mean. He’s treated women terribly and spoke like a creep most of the first semester. He should take more time alone to learn to be a decent human being before dating anyone… because he’s a shithead.
i’m not sure i’d agree he’s still a shithead, but i really agree with that last thing: Spend a lot of time alone to actually reflect on what you need to change to become the new person, the non-shithead you want to be now. Because even though he has *decided* to be a better person, you don’t grow better-person-habits overnight. There will be so many situations where you impulsively try to act the way you’re used to reacting (like here) because, literally, your neural pathways are programmed that way. Rewiring your psychological responses to things is a LOT of work and it would be the most respectful thing to do to spend some time away to get started on being a person you feel it worth being around other people.
To be fair to Joe, that was basically his plan. (Maybe – it’s not at all clear to me how much he’s been sleeping around this semester, or the end of last.) He certainly wasn’t planning on dating Joyce. He’d spent quite a while not only not asking her out, but actively trying to keep up his old act, partly I suspect to forestall any chance of her being interested.
But she kept coming to visit and he stumbled into it.
This fan theory checks out. Crashing and burning on purpose to get out of it without having to dump Joyce…instead he’ll just crumple her self esteem without having to change
I don’t at all think he’s doing that now. He was afraid he wouldn’t be able to change and he’d hurt her (or really anyone he got close to), but since he admitted it to her, he’s been all in.
To be fair, they dated for, like, two days. And Joe has never actually dated anyone before. All he was doing before were casual sexual encounters, and he’s probably used to being single.
I think there’s two different definitions of dating: the “we’re in a relationship“ meaning and the “we have been or will be going on one or several dates (without specifying anything about the relationship)”
To be honest, it feels like slapstick to me, not like something anyone, not even Joe, would actually do.
Even the greatest asshole irl would have enough self preservation to at least lie about wanting to take Sarah’s offer.
I also don’t think it’s an intentional joke *by Joe* (i think he can read a room at least somewhat), although i guess it may be a knee jerk flirtatious but unserious jokey comment, made by the kind of guys who like making flirtatious remarks in a jokey way – so there’s plausible deniability when a woman takes offense. “i’m joking!!!!“ – except you weren’t joking until someone took offense, and also, this is not how jokes work, what exactly is the joke?
….. anyways, i think IF there is a joke here, it’s a Willis joke for the punchline, which i find misplaced because i expected Joe to be slightly (even if not massively) better than this. It wasn’t worth the punch line imho.
Especially since it wasn’t just *one* comment. “hell yeah“ i’m willing to write off as a reflex, but proceeding to get up and follow it up with a second line, *that* is where i stop to believe in a reflex, he did have enough time to stop himself because there’s no way he has forgotten that Joyce is right behind that door.
Dorothy isn’t judgemental of Becky’s sex life and actually seemed pretty proud of her. She was judgemental of Roz and is overly protective of Joyce in a way that infantilizes her. As for Sarah, I think she’s concerned because it’s Joe. We gotta remember that Sarah was present for when Joyce was roofied, and proceeded to beat the crap out of Ryan with a bat. Joe is nowhere near Ryan’s levels, but Sarah’s overprotectiveness seems to come from that experience, whereas Dorothy seems to think Joyce can’t pick a partner for herself.
This is such a good point. Joyce was traumatized back then, but it’s also hard to accept and process when someone you care about gets hurt. Sarah is being extra vigilant for good reason
Dorothy’s reaction was also focused on it being Joe and while Joe’s bothered Sarah more on screen, Dorothy also knew Joe throughout high school. She knew exactly what he was like and had no reason to think he’d changed.
Like this is a case where I might’ve agrees without the hyperbolic expansion. Dorothy is strangely sex-negative for an atheist not that those don’t exist, and it’s honestly much more believable for me than Becky having “found and done faith right” and “gone through tons of trauma virtually unchanged or affected” despite being a lesbian with loads of intersectional trauma and growth experiences that should challenge her convictions to Christianity, her church and religion in general, which feels entirely due to being pigeonholed as the roughly 2.5D foil to Joyce on most levels.
But Dorothy isn’t extremely sex-negative, and recent events are having her question that along with multiple other parts of her, which is good and what growth and being a three-dimensional character looks like. And disliking Joe doesn’t make anybody sex-negative, he has legitimately devalued and preyed on girls. Sex positivity isn’t just about being okay that people have lots of sex, you still have to respect what sex means to other people, and their value divorced from your desires for them.
How is Dorothy sex-negative?
She’s shown concern about how being sexually active will affect her reputation – especially in the context of her presidential ambitions, but that’s really about it.
It’s more how she’s acted and reacted to Roz, and the bizarre admonishment of Joyce for having a crush on Jacob and spending time with him, which they both were subconsciously or perhaps half-consciously flirting with one another. Dorothy’s reaction to it felt really overstepping and based in unhealthy notions of sex and relationships as a young adult, largely informed by restrictive christian monogamy-based concepts conflating dating in college with Real Forever Love, that because Raidah and Jacob were dating then that she had Dibs on him and that he couldn’t get on with somebody better and change his mind about who he wanted to be with (besides that she was using him as a trophy boyfriend and a stepping stone to get ties to his brother)
idk if i read this right, but i *do* agree with Dorothy that you don’t try to seduce people who are in a monogamous relationship just because you think that the partner they have is bad for them and you’d be a much better choice.
That’s not a good way to do it because it WILL result in drama and unresolved issues. Relationships should never end by starting a new one. If you end one, you need time to process what happened and what you want to do better next time. Otherwise, you carry the same crap over to the new partner! (that is more relevant to me than the morals of cheating, actually)
You can disagree with the idea that one shouldn’t try to break up couples, but being against that has nothing to do with being sex-negative. Joe was against it too and we’d hardly describe him as sex-negative.
Also, Joyce was not at all “subconsciously or perhaps half-consciously flirting with one another”. Jacob was, but Joyce was doing very consciously and deliberately and she told Dorothy as much when they talked about it.
It’s not the sex life they are judgmental of but the lack of respect for other people and seeing them as nothing more than a source of sexual release And being proud of that.
Now, I weirdly kind of want to see Sarah eventually go through with her offer and fall in love. I mean if you sink the /Joe ship you become the new /Joe ship right? It’s like the Elder Wand? (and no I refuse to let that become the new name for Joe’s junk).
I’m probably wrong but this seems more like a really, really, extraordinarily bad bit of badly timed humour from Joe rather than him thinking Sarah was being serious
The only thing I can see here is that Joe thought Sarah was being so over the top that he would react just as over the top to show how silly Sarah was being
He certainly wasn’t seriously considering it. No thought put into it at all. Either it really was a profoundly stupid joke or he was just going with little Joe’s first impulse.
Rigor mortis is a result of muscular decay. It doesn’t start until hours after death, and you aren’t experiencing it as you die. Also, no muscles in the penis.
Reminds me of the Scrubs scene where Carla offers JD a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to squeeze her boobs only for JD to decline and she’s like “That’s because you’re a good guy”
I was thinking about Danny and Ethan too! So much anticipation and then Danny says something where it’s like, you understand why he said it but now it’s over forever
We’ve hit another of those Everything Is Ruined Forever moments where I usually need to take a vacation from Dee Dub, only to come back in six to twelve months and binge on everything I missed.
Oof, my boy, oof. Really can’t tell if that was sarcasm or not but i have doubts. I mean, as a person who’s never gonna be monogamous, i relate to just wanting all the casual opportunities even if you’re very romantically attached to somebody… But uh, even to successfully be poly you gotta stop thinking with your dick for like a single second
absolutely agreed!
Poly is NOT a “have lots of unattached sex without drama“ free pass.
Oh no.
It just multiplies the amount of communication and emotional work you need to put into your interactions!!
Possibly it could be a joke, but it’s a terrible time to make a joke about all this. Sarah and Joyce are shouting, so he heard most of the conversation. The way his eyebrows escape from his forehead also seems like genuine enthusiasm. I don’t think he would have actually followed through with it once his brain caught up, but it seems authentic enough in the moment.
I had a lot of thoughts as to what kinds of ways this conversation was going to go and none of them were particularly optimistic, but this was worse than any of them. I am sad now.
On one hand, I can see why Sarah’s distrustful of Joe, given the reputation he’s built for himself during their time in college. On the other, the fact that she absolutely refuses to believe that he’s capable of changing is quite closed-minded of her. I get she’s being protective of Joyce, but she could at least listen to what Joyce is saying.
I still don’t think Sarah’s being receptive to any information that’s not “Joe bad, protect Joyce”. I would say listening involves actually taking in what’s being said, and if it conflicts with your preconceived notions, maybe ask for clarity instead of just saying “nuh-uh” in response.
To be fair to Sarah, she applied the scientific method. She heard Joyce’s hypothesis and conducted an experiment to test it, which Joe promptly failed.
Joyce hasn’t offered information. She’s offered ‘I CAN CHANGE HIM BIG SISTER’. Which….I’m sorry but famous last words. In the overwhelming majority of cases, Sarah would be RIGHT to dismiss that because it’s almost always a failing effort in the best of cases and flat out bullshit at worst. WE know Joe is actually making an effort but that’s not something Sarah’s seen and Joyce and Joe aren’t helping themselves. And again, taking in what’s being said does not mean you have to agree with it or entertain flatly naive or bad evidence. That’s how you get people entertaining nonsense like conspiracy theories and pseudoscience.
Couple days ago I wrote a sarcastic comment on Facebook, ending the comment with a /s tag for clarity. The first reply was someone giving me a lengthy explanation of the subject and why my statement was incorrect.
I must be really bad at sarcasm. Maybe Joe is, too.
Prolly woulda been better to be direct and say ‘Go to hell Sarah!’ so his meaning would be unmistakable.
Sighhhh I guess it was unrealistic to expect Joe to go from 0 to 100 without zero experience or practice in being a good boyfriend. He’s never had to turn off his “single brain” before.
Now just to see where this goes. I have no guesses, honestly. (I do have hopes because I’m still a shipper! But, ah)
It depends on where you live. In Louisville, KY, it appears that lab testing fees range from $8 to $150 and at-home tests cost between $35 and $175 per test.
So it can get expensive pretty quickly depending on how often you and/or your partner(s) are sleeping around with others and how risky you are willing to be in that regard.
They are in college, however, and there is a campus health center. They may offer testing at a sort of “student discount” (or possibly free), but you’d have to look up Indiana University info on that and I don’t feel like Googling it right now. 🙂
If Joe’s at all as conscientious as I think he is, he’ll always use condoms anyway, which doesn’t eliminate, but drastically reduces the chances of STDs. Given that he’s only been involved with casual hook-ups, he’d be a fool not to.
He’s certainly not taking both himself and his hook up for the night to get tested beforehand.
I think it’s bizarre to expect Joyce to get over monogamy before Joe adapts to monogamy as the easier option, though they are both coming from opposite ends of the stick here in that regard. Joyce is already going to contend a lot with repressed sexual desires, and the extremely recent decimation of her very monogamy-oriented faith. Given monogamy extends well beyond Christianity, it’s very likely she has no capacity nor inclination to be able to manage polyamory at this stage.
Meanwhile, Joe has grown up with his parents in a surface -monogamous marriage that led to divorce, ostensibly due to his dad’s cheating. This both means he may struggle with monogamy but has been deeply affected by the consequences of “doing monogamy wrong.” In this sense, and also because Joe has more investment in Joyce that we’ve seen of the pair so far, the onus is largely on Joe to adapt to a monogamous relationship, at least initially.
Considering Sara’s body language was more aggressive with just a touch of sarcasm, I’m willing to give Joe’s response the benefit of the doubt. Had her body language suggested more “sincerity”(even if it were feigned to prove that point for Joyce) and Joe still acquiesced, then he should have known better to let his baser instincts take over.
I actually think that was one of Joe’s less problematic interactions. She knocked on his door and asked for sex. It wasn’t like she asked to sleep over at his place and he pressured her to have sex.
He was really exemplary about it, the only problems with it are that a: it was Sarah’s sister and Sarah is aware that they’re attracted to one another at the very least, so doesn’t help her opinion of him and b: Joe was ready to get into bed with her despite her reminding him of Joyce in a couple ways, ways that did seem to end up messing with his head and probably will lead to as-yet unseen issues, if this ship can survive the Sarahpedoes. There is also the issue that this strip is showing a similar reflex that ended up with him and Liz nearly banging, which was fine then when both parties were available, but Joe and Joyce have not even had those conversations yet and given Joyce’s background, he is definitely going to need to assume that hooking up is no longer a thing he gets to do for now.
One thing Joe hasn’t shown is any ability to turn anyone down, even when he’s got reasons not to. We saw it with Malaya back when. We saw it with Liz, though there he did agonize a little. And may we even see it today, depending on how much he’s joking.
Not going to be? Well, if the guy whose main established hobby is saying whatever it takes to get women into bed says he’s “going” to change for you, did Joyce place a large bet against her own ship or what?
And no, Joe isn’t sarcastic. The clues are in how he changes his mind mid-sentence when he remembers he’s not supposed to jump in dick first whenever he smells an opportunity for sex anymore and awkwardly tries to explain he didn’t really mean to react like he did.
If he thought Sarah was joking and was playing along, his line in the last panel would maybe go something like. “Was that too much?” or “I think we’ve taken this bit far enough, can I come in now?”
I’m inclined to agree. And while I think Joe is sincere in wanting to have a relationship, I can see why Sarah thinks Joyce has fallen for an act designed to get her into bed. The way she is talking in the second panel has a tinge of old-Joyce rose-colored glasses. I know Joe messed up here, but possibly it will help Joyce understand that the emotional labor of Joe’s reformation won’t fall solely on him. She will also have to be patient and understanding or what is likely to be a long process.
I think Joe wouldn’t have done it. He was caught offguard by the comment and reverted to “old Joe” mode for a moment. My bet is he would have
caught himself and stopped before he finished undressing, despite his reply.
I mean, changing from being a douchebag to being a decent guy IS a change i believe can happen and is worth pursuing.
But if Joe has a desire to have a lot of different, loose sexual connections, he might not be suited well for monogamy. It *may* be part of him changing to start seeing women less as sex objects, but it *may* also be part of who he is as a sexual being to have many different partners without deep romantic connection. That part is not morally wrong as long as he’s not doing PUA shit anymore, but is respectful AND upfront about not looking for romance or anything.
But, will he *actually* be happy in a monogamous relationship, once the NRE (New Relationship Energy) wears off?!
Maybe not, but it’s okay for Joe to find out. This is just a college relationship. If he’s not happy in a few months, he can bow out. Joyce will be disappointed but if he doesn’t cheat on her I would say he hasn’t done anything wrong. Joyce needs to get over looking at every relationship as marriage material, so it might be good for he in a certain way.
Agreed. I just think they really, really need to have this conversation, and over and over. It’s not True Love Forever, this is not how college works, this is not how learning relationships works. I believe that the amount of time a relationship lasts is nearly irrelevant, as long as it’s a good relationship and people are being happy with each other. If you communicate well about your needs and wishes, and respect those of your partner, you will be okay. Even if it ends in a few months.
But Joyce is not aware that relationships can end, and by that i mean, that *her* relationship will end (for any other reason than finding out your partner is a gay guy). She seems to believe that a woman can magically change a man (because it’s TRUE LOVE!) and then it’s gonna last forever. She needs to become aware that she shouldn’t prescriptively expect that from a relationship.
If Joe couldn’t refrain from falling into Sarah’s trap here, when he knows full well she *hates* him, I cannot fathom that he’ll be able to hold out when he comes across someone who is actually interested. I no longer have any faith in Joe’s capacity to not cheat.
When I was in college, I had a bunch of casual relationships and one night stands. But I knew I eventually WANTED a monogamous relationship, marriage, kids, etc.
I’ve got that now. Sometimes I think about the times of casual relationships fondly, but I wouldn’t go back.
Joe might decide he WANTS that, maybe even with Joyce.
But then, maybe he doesn’t. And that’s ok too. College is a time of discovery, to figure out what you want.
Heck, maybe Joyce will decide she wants to be in a poly relationship. All things are possible
Joe has shown he puts Joyce’s wishes first, and that he’s got her back if he has a difference of opinion (i.e. shouting at Joyce’s mom instead of being the model lapdog gentleman). If he thought this was Joyce, then doing what she wanted coincided with his survival needs, his delayed gratification finally coming due. But with the trap sprung, he now has to give lame explanations to rebut Sarah’s perspective.
“If he thought this was Joyce”? He’s looking *straight at her* in panel 4 with a big dopey grin on his face. He didn’t think this was Joyce, he was knee-jerk reacting to literally the first woman to throw herself at him.
I’m happy for Joe, but I wish he would see it as a change for himself, and Joyce is simply the type of girl he truly wants. Changing yourself just for one person never ends well.
Sarah, looking Joyce directly in the eye “See, I told you!”
Joe, looking confused “Wait, something’s not right here.”
Joyce, holding the camera “Can you give it to her a little softer, Joe? It looks a little forced.”
(That said this isn’t really a win for Sarah *either*, because the next panel is *either* going to be Joyce angry at Sarah and ignoring Joe’s fail or Joyce being shocked and hurt at how easily Joe switched back to default settings.)
Guess the true dividing line between me at eighteen, and Joe (besides the obvious) is that my first reaction to Sarah’s ploy would’ve been ‘What??’ He’s not unintelligent, he’s had exposure to Sarah previously. Might’ve been “What? Why NOW??”
Clearly Joe has a much more idealized view of reality than I grew up with.
This is a frustrating part of the story BECAUSE Sarah has every reason to act like this – She has not seen the soft, protective side of Joe. She has every reason to suspect that Joyce is being manipulated
forgot to hit “post comment” so maybe someone else has noted this in the past 12 hours.
Even though Joe is probably not serious about having sex with Sarah, I think it’s moot, because both he and Joyce make Sarah’s point for her. They say he’s changing for Joyce. I think it’s more than that, I think he probably is changing for himself, because of Joyce, because of his conversations with Amber (I had links the first time I wrote this, sorry). But changing for someone else implies its provisional, not a real change. Joe’s skeptical his father is changing for real, for Stacy, for example.
And even though he’s probably joking about being willing to have sex with Sarah, he was willing to have sex with Liz at the drop of a hat. Nuances and all that, but Sarah is in the Goldilocks zone of torpedoing this ship. I think they can make it, but more importantly, Joe needs to figure out which version of him he prefers being, for himself.
So much of the character development in this comic, even the stuff that may seem over the top, feels completely true to life. Amber’s dissociative identity disorder. Checks out. Portrayal of various manifestations of autism. That tracks. Danny being the biggest pushover in the world. Been there. Super insane straining-belief mega-fundie parents. Sadly totally real. Walky’s gifted child ADHD shame-avoidance failing out of class. Totally real. Body-count Joe spending an afternoon with the woman he has a huge crush on, is dating, and obviously cares for, then two minutes later insta-jumps to take his clothes off for someone else, while Joyce is standing right there, *in the room*. I just can’t see it. Even for him.
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Joe: Come ON, it was a REFLEX!
Sarah: So’s this FIST in your FACE
We haven’t heard from Joyce yet. Wait for it.
DAMMIT Joe…
Accidental flag. DAMMIT Me…
You heard her, she said faaaaaaaaaaaaaace
C’mon, Joe, you had one job.
Pretty sure he was mocking her. He and Sarah have never got along.
those eyebrows in panel 4 though
I read it as a sincere immediate response, where Joe reacted dick-first, before even reality-checking what was happening.
Sarah knew him well enough to select for him an appropriate lie. And now he’ll have to figure out how on earth to dig himself out of it. Whoops!
We’ll find out for sure tomorrow.
Most of me thinks Joe realizes how absurd Sarah’s offer is, and is attempting to respond with an over-the-top reaction to show he’s joking. Unfortunately, he severely underestimated how believable his reaction would have been for Classic Joe — “having his clothes off before he even gets through the door” is a little bit beyond what I think even he’d do but not a lot.
On the other hand, though, his eyebrows seem genuine and his shirt-tug in the last panel seems a little more guilty than I’d expect for a joke not landing.
That’s Method.
Also Method: Remember your lines, and don’t bump into the furniture.
Same. Especially since, given the exclamation points, Sarah and Joyce’s conversation has been likely loud enough to hear through the door.
Joe prefers jobs with hand or blow as a prefix.
what can he say, habits die hard
Damn I guess Sarah wants to take matters into her own hands, kinda off-putting to just throw out her friend’s boyfriend like that tho? 😮
Also sort of a jerk move to proposition him (even if “IT’S A TRAP!”)
Well it wouldn’t be the first time Joyce’s boyfriend has been ejected from her room.
he wasn’t ejected then, he was fired
Maybe it’s just a reflex, like how you close your eyes when you sneeze.
He’s been Classically Conditioned.
(Get it? Cause he’s a dog.)
He’s a dog, he likes boning 😛
the torpedo is a devastating weapon against ships of all types
If you get your future self to bring you back some future quantum torpedoes, you can take out a Borg cube all by yourself in one hit.
whelp
i don’t even ship them, but
dang
Sometimes the best laid ships are the ones you didn’t even know where being built.
yeah that metaphor makes sense.
“You mean like a submarine which is all stealthy”
“I was going to go with Darth Maul’s “Scimitar” which has a cloaking field but let’s go with your”.
They WERE a fling in Roomies!.
And she HAS flung him in DOA 😀
Oh, I can help with this one, Joe! You have to add /s at the end of your message.
…oh wait. She slammed the door before the end of it. Nevermind.
Joe just forget to say “Kappa” at the end.
(it’s from Twitch)
“… jk … unless … ?”
…wow, that’s a hell of a Natural 1 roll there, Joe.
It’s like his heart isn’t even *in* the game!
Ahhh, finally, balance is restored
I guess for once we can say he really JOE’d it up this time! He and Danny really have switched places.
I’ve how its ok to do this shit to men, but if the same were said about women it would be shut shaming. He’s never cheated on anyone, always got affirmative consent, and immediately backed off with no pressure if the girl changed her mind. Yet despite doing all of that he’s treated like a sexual predator all the time.
Agreed. At the same time, he was careless with publishing his private list in an unintentionally public manner.
It was limited access at most. He offered access to anyone who he suspected might be interested. If I recall correctly it had an rss feed.
It was a list that was intended to be shared, and shouldn’t be papered over as a whoopsie. It was creepy and sleazy. It would be both of those things even if he didn’t share it and didn’t tell anyone about it, but the fact that he did makes it significantly worse and earned him a bad reputation.
Solidly said. Thanks for the correction.
It was the act of a kid who’s considered barely old enough to buy scrstch off tickets. It was a ranking of hot chicks by score. Not that different from People magazine’s sexiest man alive bit they do each year. Once again, if it were women doing it they’d be praised for being empowered, or at least not vilified. It was stupid, but not evil or malicious. And it does not in ANY way justify him being treated as if he’s a sex offender.
Yeah no, Sarah doesn’t just hate him because he has sex with a lot of girls. She hates him because he (used to) constantly objectify every woman around him and basically looked at every girl on campus as a potential conquest. That’s not the same as just being promiscuous
Also when his list leaked, it functioned, however unintentionally, as a map to every girl on campus for sexual predators, and did in fact allow Ryan to get to Joyce, though Amber stopped him. Not really minor, I get why Sarah is not forgiving. I like Joe and I believe in him and Joyce, but he has a hard row to hoe with everyone else and it’s his own doing.
Yup. This. Entirely.
As I recall, Joe’s list leaked *after* Amber cut Ryan to ribbons. Then he gave out donuts, saved one for Joyce, and she told him about Ryan and how Amber got him for good.
Not quite. Ryan was mad at Joyce for scarring him with the glass/bottle she smashed in his face, and Amazigirl and Dorothy for blasting his picture and sharing what had happened, and used Joe’s list to track them down. He was going after them in a place they should have been safe (their dorms) with a knife – and if Amber hadn’t wedged a folder into the door, disarmed him, and sliced him up, Ryan would quite probably have murdered Dorothy, unless she could outrun and outhide him; and Joyce if she froze against an armed attacker violating a safe space and was unable to disarm him by e.g. throwing books at his arms until she blunt-force made him drop the knife; Sarah, if she didn’t have her bat to hand to fight back with… as he is a sexual predator too, ruling out SA as part of his plans would be short-sighted.
Amber is a small girl who looks slightly chubby; she went right up to him and got the element of surprise because she doesn’t look like an experienced, strong, agile, fast, viciously violent fighter who will not hesitate to turn a predator into a pile of meat ribbons with his own knife. If it hadn’t been for that aspect to her, that she hates about herself (when not channeled into Amazigirl, who has principles, apparently… I think she trusts Amazigirl to know when to stop and doesn’t trust herself to do so) – it is very likely that at least one of the girls would have been seriously injured or killed.
It isn’t Joe’s fault and he didn’t make them targets – but he did provide neat directions to where they were.
ESPECIALLY after having been kidnapped, tied up and thrown into a cellar by somebody who apparently didn’t want to hurt them – somebody who made her and Little Sister more vulnerable to someone who did wish them harm is going to need to work pretty hard to get off her 💩-list.
Amber didn’t completely have the element of surprise – Ryan thought she was Amazi-girl, so should have known she was dangerous, but he had a knife and thought that would make the difference.
There’s no reason to think Ryan’s attacks and Joe’s list were connected at all.
He recognized Dorothy and followed her back.
Exactly this!
Promiscuity with consent and respect AND open communication about intentions (like “just so you know, i’m not looking for a relationship”) is GREAT.
Objectifying women (or people in general, but let’s name the structural problem as it is) is BAD.
Maybe that’s because he didn’t always immediately back off with no pressure. I can think of at least once he didn’t stop sniffing around until Sarah screamed at him.
He also used to say things like a drunker version of Joyce might have a sex tape, along with saying he’d upgrade her from a four to a ten and that he’d fix her with his penis TO SARAH.
He’s doing better now but if he didn’t want to be treated like a predator, he shouldn’t have acted like one.
He certainly has grown a lot over the last 10 years hasn’t he?
I feel like maybe people are forgetting how bad Joe was, cause it wasn’t just him having a healthy and active sex life. Roz is more that type of character. Joe was the guy saying “kiss” every time girls fought. This isn’t Sarah being mean. Joe earned all of this. I’m glad he’s trying to improve and I like where his growth is leading but he’s gonna have to hold some of these L’s too.
I couldn’t agree more.
Has JOYCE earned it though? Having her choices and life dictated by other people? If Joe is a mistake, and that’s still very much an if, he’sJoyce’s mistake to make.
Everyone in Joyce’s life seems to me to have a fundamental and unshakable lack of respect for her as a person.
For sure, it’s up to her, but I also can’t fault an older sibling figure for telling him to fuck off without knowing what’s going on. I’m hoping she’ll be over it by the end of the conversation but that crack from Joe didn’t help.
Yup. The “he’ll change for me” is exactly what the naive targets always say about the creeps trying to take advantage of them. It’s a predator tactic.
We know Joe’s serious, but Joyce saying it shouldn’t be enough to convince Sarah.
If anything the fact that Joe says he *wants* to change for her might be the biggest flag for Sarah because they all say that. Sarah doesn’t see what we do — she doesn’t even see what Joyce does — so she’s right to be sketchy
Agreed. The idea of “changing” somebody is the height of relationship naïvete. It’s very, very basic relationship advice to date people as they are. Don’t set your heart on changing big central things about them (such as whether monogamy/non-monogamy will be easy for them).
Not in the sense of doing something wrong, but she was terribly naive when she first arrived on campus. And the way she’s talking here makes it seem like she’s still that person. Her friends have always felt a need to take care of her and protect her, and initially she welcomed that role. She’s changing into a person who doesn’t need or want that kind of care anymore, but it may take some time for her friends to adjust. I understand that it’s not fair to Joyce and her friends seem shitty at the moment, but I don’t think all the blame lies with them.
She also welcomed that kind of attention initially. Remember that, after the Ryan incident, the big moment during the morning after was that she was surrounded by a posse of protectors.
These are the same people who are dubious about this relationship. In exactly the same proportion that they were protective of Joyce.
Whoops, doubled up on Bash saying “welcomed”. Sorry about that.
Not just terribly naive, but also immediately determined to find a husband and obsessed with romance. Never mind the fact that Joe used their date to “corrupt” her and make her more sexually appealing to him
Do you have to earn having people warn off sexual predators? Seems that should be the default.
Absolutely agreed.
Part of changing your ways is admitting and atoning for your mistakes.
He has hurt people and he needs to hold himself accountable for it.
If he does, he has my respect, for the change he’s making.
And so does anyone who’s not willing to forgive him and is still hurt. Just because a predator no longer is a predator does not negate the impact he had on others. Their feelings matter even more.
As noted, he kept a list of women by attractiveness. His reputation is well-earned. Sarah isn’t treating him like a predator, she’s treating him like someone who’s going to ultimately break Joyce’s heart. Not that it’s good that she’s making this decision for her, but she has a good reason to distrust him.
Well, he was very much about to cheat right here. And do you not recall the “Do” list? People have good reason for mistrusting him even though he’s grown a fair bit. And you can see that Sarah’s objection is that she thinks he’s horrible at exclusive relationships, which is what he’s supposedly in right now. This isn’t some gendered double standard thing.
“Very much about to cheat” yeah okay
I mean, this could very well be sarcasm.
It’s okay to do what exactly? What Sarah did? If this was centered around someone like Roz, and the guy’s friend tried to trick her into cheating, would that be slut shaming? I understand that it’s problematic, but if someone’s whole personality is having multiple sexual partners there’s bound to be concern if they start dating your somewhat naive friend.
Because he constantly harassed the women on campus and had to be yelled at to take no for an answer. Source: Sarah and Rachel
He also introduced himself to Sarah by saying he was going to fix Joyce with his dick. The problem with Joe’s past behavior wasn’t having sex, it was openly reducing women to objects and going on “conquests”. Don’t get me wrong I love him and he’s changed a lot but lets not whitewash his past and downplay the redemption part of his redemption arc
Honestly, Joe was never actually a predator but he sure smelled like one, so I don’t blame the women of IU for distrusting him. There was, for instance, the time he tried to pedantically hit on Rachel the instant she stepped outside her dorm room. She stayed pretty calm, but honestly if someone did that in real life I think it would be seen as downright scary.
Early series Joe honestly reminds me of a lot of cocky, strident young men I’ve known; they don’t actively mean harm but aren’t self-aware enough to even realize their actions can *cause* harm.
well shit I wrote the word “honestly” 3 times, bad form
I love his cartoon face in that second to last panel
…Joe are you incapable of controlling the reflex, or are you actually that much of a shithead?
I’m pretty sure it was reflex.
Looking at all of Joe’s past comments, I’d say he’s a pretty big shithead. I can’t imagine him actually cleaning up his act longterm for Joyce. And I don’t mean the sleeping around, I mean. He’s treated women terribly and spoke like a creep most of the first semester. He should take more time alone to learn to be a decent human being before dating anyone… because he’s a shithead.
i’m not sure i’d agree he’s still a shithead, but i really agree with that last thing: Spend a lot of time alone to actually reflect on what you need to change to become the new person, the non-shithead you want to be now. Because even though he has *decided* to be a better person, you don’t grow better-person-habits overnight. There will be so many situations where you impulsively try to act the way you’re used to reacting (like here) because, literally, your neural pathways are programmed that way. Rewiring your psychological responses to things is a LOT of work and it would be the most respectful thing to do to spend some time away to get started on being a person you feel it worth being around other people.
To be fair to Joe, that was basically his plan. (Maybe – it’s not at all clear to me how much he’s been sleeping around this semester, or the end of last.) He certainly wasn’t planning on dating Joyce. He’d spent quite a while not only not asking her out, but actively trying to keep up his old act, partly I suspect to forestall any chance of her being interested.
But she kept coming to visit and he stumbled into it.
This fan theory checks out. Crashing and burning on purpose to get out of it without having to dump Joyce…instead he’ll just crumple her self esteem without having to change
I don’t at all think he’s doing that now. He was afraid he wouldn’t be able to change and he’d hurt her (or really anyone he got close to), but since he admitted it to her, he’s been all in.
…wow. Even of Joe I expected better. At worst, to disabuse Joyce.
To be fair, they dated for, like, two days. And Joe has never actually dated anyone before. All he was doing before were casual sexual encounters, and he’s probably used to being single.
Does the time he dated Joyce, chaperoned by Mike, count as a date or was it too insincere for that
I think there’s two different definitions of dating: the “we’re in a relationship“ meaning and the “we have been or will be going on one or several dates (without specifying anything about the relationship)”
I really can’t tell if Joe was joking or if this is just such a reflex for him that it was genuine
I read it as a joke but not one that helped his case.
I’d like to think so too because I really like Joe lately and his relationship with Joyce. Know your audience, Joe
Considering the life he’s lead in college so far, it could literally be reflex.
To be honest, it feels like slapstick to me, not like something anyone, not even Joe, would actually do.
Even the greatest asshole irl would have enough self preservation to at least lie about wanting to take Sarah’s offer.
I also don’t think it’s an intentional joke *by Joe* (i think he can read a room at least somewhat), although i guess it may be a knee jerk flirtatious but unserious jokey comment, made by the kind of guys who like making flirtatious remarks in a jokey way – so there’s plausible deniability when a woman takes offense. “i’m joking!!!!“ – except you weren’t joking until someone took offense, and also, this is not how jokes work, what exactly is the joke?
….. anyways, i think IF there is a joke here, it’s a Willis joke for the punchline, which i find misplaced because i expected Joe to be slightly (even if not massively) better than this. It wasn’t worth the punch line imho.
Especially since it wasn’t just *one* comment. “hell yeah“ i’m willing to write off as a reflex, but proceeding to get up and follow it up with a second line, *that* is where i stop to believe in a reflex, he did have enough time to stop himself because there’s no way he has forgotten that Joyce is right behind that door.
Ehhh probably a little of column A and column B
You’re not helping yourself there dude.
Damn it, Joe. :/
Dangit Joe
Can’t tell if he was trying to make a joke or it was a sincere reflexive response.
me neither LOL
is it like one of those earthling meme things where not getting it is the joke?
I am unsure too, but I lean towards his reaction being a reflex on the part of Joe and a funny joke on the part of the author.
I think reflex myself, exacerbated by kind of enjoying being dragged around by a dominant lady.
Sarah and Dorothy are notably extremely sex-negative and judgemental of their dorm mates’ sex lives.
Dorothy is most def not sex-negative. She just doesn’t view others as self-reliant.
Dorothy isn’t judgemental of Becky’s sex life and actually seemed pretty proud of her. She was judgemental of Roz and is overly protective of Joyce in a way that infantilizes her. As for Sarah, I think she’s concerned because it’s Joe. We gotta remember that Sarah was present for when Joyce was roofied, and proceeded to beat the crap out of Ryan with a bat. Joe is nowhere near Ryan’s levels, but Sarah’s overprotectiveness seems to come from that experience, whereas Dorothy seems to think Joyce can’t pick a partner for herself.
Yeah, honestly Sarah’s reaction seems way more justified than Dorothy’s was.
This is such a good point. Joyce was traumatized back then, but it’s also hard to accept and process when someone you care about gets hurt. Sarah is being extra vigilant for good reason
Dorothy’s reaction was also focused on it being Joe and while Joe’s bothered Sarah more on screen, Dorothy also knew Joe throughout high school. She knew exactly what he was like and had no reason to think he’d changed.
Like this is a case where I might’ve agrees without the hyperbolic expansion. Dorothy is strangely sex-negative for an atheist not that those don’t exist, and it’s honestly much more believable for me than Becky having “found and done faith right” and “gone through tons of trauma virtually unchanged or affected” despite being a lesbian with loads of intersectional trauma and growth experiences that should challenge her convictions to Christianity, her church and religion in general, which feels entirely due to being pigeonholed as the roughly 2.5D foil to Joyce on most levels.
But Dorothy isn’t extremely sex-negative, and recent events are having her question that along with multiple other parts of her, which is good and what growth and being a three-dimensional character looks like. And disliking Joe doesn’t make anybody sex-negative, he has legitimately devalued and preyed on girls. Sex positivity isn’t just about being okay that people have lots of sex, you still have to respect what sex means to other people, and their value divorced from your desires for them.
How is Dorothy sex-negative?
She’s shown concern about how being sexually active will affect her reputation – especially in the context of her presidential ambitions, but that’s really about it.
It’s more how she’s acted and reacted to Roz, and the bizarre admonishment of Joyce for having a crush on Jacob and spending time with him, which they both were subconsciously or perhaps half-consciously flirting with one another. Dorothy’s reaction to it felt really overstepping and based in unhealthy notions of sex and relationships as a young adult, largely informed by restrictive christian monogamy-based concepts conflating dating in college with Real Forever Love, that because Raidah and Jacob were dating then that she had Dibs on him and that he couldn’t get on with somebody better and change his mind about who he wanted to be with (besides that she was using him as a trophy boyfriend and a stepping stone to get ties to his brother)
idk if i read this right, but i *do* agree with Dorothy that you don’t try to seduce people who are in a monogamous relationship just because you think that the partner they have is bad for them and you’d be a much better choice.
That’s not a good way to do it because it WILL result in drama and unresolved issues. Relationships should never end by starting a new one. If you end one, you need time to process what happened and what you want to do better next time. Otherwise, you carry the same crap over to the new partner! (that is more relevant to me than the morals of cheating, actually)
You can disagree with the idea that one shouldn’t try to break up couples, but being against that has nothing to do with being sex-negative. Joe was against it too and we’d hardly describe him as sex-negative.
Also, Joyce was not at all “subconsciously or perhaps half-consciously flirting with one another”. Jacob was, but Joyce was doing very consciously and deliberately and she told Dorothy as much when they talked about it.
It’s not the sex life they are judgmental of but the lack of respect for other people and seeing them as nothing more than a source of sexual release And being proud of that.
Now, I weirdly kind of want to see Sarah eventually go through with her offer and fall in love. I mean if you sink the /Joe ship you become the new /Joe ship right? It’s like the Elder Wand? (and no I refuse to let that become the new name for Joe’s junk).
That’s his father’s wand. Joe’s is shiny and new
The Junior Wand
“It’s magically delicious!” – Joe
“Joe’s is shiny and new” …is it though?
I mean, it’s definitely been given a good spitshine and polishing over and over
Compared to Richard’s?
I think I know why the Future Panel was Joyce/Joe.
Far less anxiety now.
I’m probably wrong but this seems more like a really, really, extraordinarily bad bit of badly timed humour from Joe rather than him thinking Sarah was being serious
The only thing I can see here is that Joe thought Sarah was being so over the top that he would react just as over the top to show how silly Sarah was being
At least I hope that’s what he was thinking
Sarah was TRYING to see if she could (hypothetically) get some humor out of Joe.
*flees for dear Galen-punning life.*
Was kinda choleric to his sanguinity.
I mean one would think, the idea that it’s such a reflex that he’d do something that massively idiotic is seems pretty absurd.
Oh come on that’s bullshit
Like this is the most looney tunes ass way to move this plot along
Totally agree like… there’s gotta be a slightly more subtle way to try and show he hasn’t changed that much yet if that’s the way the plot is going
Hey, some of us like Looney Tunes.
Agreed. He spent more time considering Malayas offer than he did this
I’m hoping there’s more to it
I’m 99% sure Joe was joking and not seriously considering her offer.
He certainly wasn’t seriously considering it. No thought put into it at all. Either it really was a profoundly stupid joke or he was just going with little Joe’s first impulse.
Possiblity: seeing how it plays out
Joe N O
Joe Y E S
Anyway, Joe is so pudic in last panel.
lol joe should’ve known better but respect for committing to the bit?? that said sarah can’t rly stay attached to the hip with joyce forever lol
Joe thought this was the threesome call and he got a little ahead of himself.
Joe: Now I can stop pretending to Danny 🥲🥲🥲
To be fair, nobody would believe him if he told them who it was.
Old habits die hard and erect.
Nah, rigor mortis doesn’t affect the penis. Ask me how I know.
Something something blood flow?
Ok HOW DO YOU KNOW?
it’s probably something mundane like “you work in a morgue“ 😛
Rigor mortis is a result of muscular decay. It doesn’t start until hours after death, and you aren’t experiencing it as you die. Also, no muscles in the penis.
Reminds me of the Scrubs scene where Carla offers JD a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to squeeze her boobs only for JD to decline and she’s like “That’s because you’re a good guy”
dude.
I know Sarah’s just testing Joe but I’m also I’m really down for this method of courtship.
I love how angry Sarah looks when she says she’s horny for him. Anger shouldn’t look sexy, but
Long ago Joe admit thar he dig her angry sex energy
So Sarah was playing to her strengths here.
Damn it Joe. You were doing better. Still got a long way to go, clearly.
The ship sunk after hitting a rock on the Horn of Dumbass.
Willis. Willis please.
I have been waiting for this ship to happen for a decade, at least.
PLEASE do not take it away so quickly like this I am BEGGING on my HANDS AND KNEES. TT__TT
I think there’s gotta be some drama, not just smooth sailing forever.
Tell it to Danny x Ethan. Teased that M-M romance for 5 years, literally put it on the Masthead. then boom.
I was thinking about Danny and Ethan too! So much anticipation and then Danny says something where it’s like, you understand why he said it but now it’s over forever
Really wondering how it’s going to go here
Guess we’ll find out, in five or six years.
We’ve hit another of those Everything Is Ruined Forever moments where I usually need to take a vacation from Dee Dub, only to come back in six to twelve months and binge on everything I missed.
ohhhh I hate all of this. (in a “yes delicious conflict” way.)
joyce I hate that you’re revealing this in a heated, charged yelling match
sarah, I hate that you’re stonewalling the possibility of growth even though I’m not gonna say you’re being unreasonable
joe…actually, i’m ok with joe here. i get it. not in a “you get a pass” way, but I get it.
Oof, my boy, oof. Really can’t tell if that was sarcasm or not but i have doubts. I mean, as a person who’s never gonna be monogamous, i relate to just wanting all the casual opportunities even if you’re very romantically attached to somebody… But uh, even to successfully be poly you gotta stop thinking with your dick for like a single second
100% this. They haven’t even discussed it yet.
absolutely agreed!
Poly is NOT a “have lots of unattached sex without drama“ free pass.
Oh no.
It just multiplies the amount of communication and emotional work you need to put into your interactions!!
*sad trombone*
Possibly it could be a joke, but it’s a terrible time to make a joke about all this. Sarah and Joyce are shouting, so he heard most of the conversation. The way his eyebrows escape from his forehead also seems like genuine enthusiasm. I don’t think he would have actually followed through with it once his brain caught up, but it seems authentic enough in the moment.
His eyebrows are symbiotic organisms with their own ears. They’re faster than his brain.
I had a lot of thoughts as to what kinds of ways this conversation was going to go and none of them were particularly optimistic, but this was worse than any of them. I am sad now.
Okay, I know this looks bad, but…actually that’s just kind of the end of that sentence.
ehhh. this feels like actual character growth derailed for cheap gag of the day.
If Joe said nothing, Sarah would still think the same thing. I think it works.
I read it as Joe being sarcastic so I don’t think he’s being derailed.
Feeling a sudden need for a dream sequence of Joyce/Joe nuptials.
With Mike as best man.
Worst man 🙂
Oh Joe, betrayed by your own instincts and bad old habits.
Joe chose the worst possible moment to be sarcastic.
On one hand, I can see why Sarah’s distrustful of Joe, given the reputation he’s built for himself during their time in college. On the other, the fact that she absolutely refuses to believe that he’s capable of changing is quite closed-minded of her. I get she’s being protective of Joyce, but she could at least listen to what Joyce is saying.
It also doesn’t help Joe’s case that even though he’s trying to become a better person for Joyce, those old habits really do seem to die hard.
Phrasing.
She DID listen to what Joyce was saying. And then went “and here’s my counterargument”.
Listening is when you reject everything you’re hearing, I agree.
Listening doesn’t require you to agree.
I still don’t think Sarah’s being receptive to any information that’s not “Joe bad, protect Joyce”. I would say listening involves actually taking in what’s being said, and if it conflicts with your preconceived notions, maybe ask for clarity instead of just saying “nuh-uh” in response.
To be fair to Sarah, she applied the scientific method. She heard Joyce’s hypothesis and conducted an experiment to test it, which Joe promptly failed.
Joyce hasn’t offered information. She’s offered ‘I CAN CHANGE HIM BIG SISTER’. Which….I’m sorry but famous last words. In the overwhelming majority of cases, Sarah would be RIGHT to dismiss that because it’s almost always a failing effort in the best of cases and flat out bullshit at worst. WE know Joe is actually making an effort but that’s not something Sarah’s seen and Joyce and Joe aren’t helping themselves. And again, taking in what’s being said does not mean you have to agree with it or entertain flatly naive or bad evidence. That’s how you get people entertaining nonsense like conspiracy theories and pseudoscience.
When you put it that way, I can see your point.
Sarah’s been Very reasonable because she actually gave Joe a chance, that’s far more than most people, knowing Joe’s history, would do.
She gave him a chance.
He proceeded to colossally fuck up that chance.
Sarah is being too cynical, sure, but she’s not being entirely closed minded here.
Ok, I’m at a loss here, did Joe seriously fall for that or did he confuse Sara with Joyce? And is this just for the punchline?
Ah cmon there’s no way joe is thar stupid
honestly I’m not even sure if he was trying to joke or if it was a pavlov reflex
It seemed a little bit more like a pavlov reflex to me, considering he only called it sarcasm when Sarah slammed and locked the door.
You failed, Joe.
Oh no, Joe
Sarcasm bites him in the ass once again
May God forgive you because Sarah certainly won’t
This is my favourite comment so far
Couple days ago I wrote a sarcastic comment on Facebook, ending the comment with a /s tag for clarity. The first reply was someone giving me a lengthy explanation of the subject and why my statement was incorrect.
I must be really bad at sarcasm. Maybe Joe is, too.
Prolly woulda been better to be direct and say ‘Go to hell Sarah!’ so his meaning would be unmistakable.
Even if he’d answered no she would’ve just said he was lying and that he’s playing the long-con to get with Joyce
Seriously Joe, it’s best to not say the shitty thing even if you meant to append a “Just kidding.” to it. Just don’t be shitty in the first place.
This is how people end up resenting and feeling burdened by their own sex drive.
Well call me Marie Kondo because I love mess
I really don’t like this. It’s just people yelling.
Sighhhh I guess it was unrealistic to expect Joe to go from 0 to 100 without zero experience or practice in being a good boyfriend. He’s never had to turn off his “single brain” before.
Now just to see where this goes. I have no guesses, honestly. (I do have hopes because I’m still a shipper! But, ah)
Honestly one of the most workable solutions would be an openly poly relationship with Joe. Hopefully Joe is good about getting tested for STD:s.
Y’know, people bring up the STDs thing a lot. Is testing expensive? If it was, that’d kinda suck for anyone who didn’t have much money.
It depends on where you live. In Louisville, KY, it appears that lab testing fees range from $8 to $150 and at-home tests cost between $35 and $175 per test.
So it can get expensive pretty quickly depending on how often you and/or your partner(s) are sleeping around with others and how risky you are willing to be in that regard.
They are in college, however, and there is a campus health center. They may offer testing at a sort of “student discount” (or possibly free), but you’d have to look up Indiana University info on that and I don’t feel like Googling it right now. 🙂
Also, Joe’s dad is a doctor, which suggests to me both lots of money, and easy access by association to affordable testing.
If Joe’s at all as conscientious as I think he is, he’ll always use condoms anyway, which doesn’t eliminate, but drastically reduces the chances of STDs. Given that he’s only been involved with casual hook-ups, he’d be a fool not to.
He’s certainly not taking both himself and his hook up for the night to get tested beforehand.
I think it’s bizarre to expect Joyce to get over monogamy before Joe adapts to monogamy as the easier option, though they are both coming from opposite ends of the stick here in that regard. Joyce is already going to contend a lot with repressed sexual desires, and the extremely recent decimation of her very monogamy-oriented faith. Given monogamy extends well beyond Christianity, it’s very likely she has no capacity nor inclination to be able to manage polyamory at this stage.
Meanwhile, Joe has grown up with his parents in a surface -monogamous marriage that led to divorce, ostensibly due to his dad’s cheating. This both means he may struggle with monogamy but has been deeply affected by the consequences of “doing monogamy wrong.” In this sense, and also because Joe has more investment in Joyce that we’ve seen of the pair so far, the onus is largely on Joe to adapt to a monogamous relationship, at least initially.
Considering Sara’s body language was more aggressive with just a touch of sarcasm, I’m willing to give Joe’s response the benefit of the doubt. Had her body language suggested more “sincerity”(even if it were feigned to prove that point for Joyce) and Joe still acquiesced, then he should have known better to let his baser instincts take over.
He’s not even looking at her.
Plus, we know he likes her angry energy.
He definitely should have known better – whether he was joking or serious.
I think he was joking but the timing of it didn’t work out because he’s an idiot
We’ll see if the timing works out once we get to Joyce’s reaction to it. I’m 99.9% sure it was a joke though.
Remember that Joe was ok with random sex with Sarah’s sister just a short time ago. Someone he barely knew and didn’t have a place to sleep.
I actually think that was one of Joe’s less problematic interactions. She knocked on his door and asked for sex. It wasn’t like she asked to sleep over at his place and he pressured her to have sex.
And we still don’t know where she slept. (Either night, because I think there were two?)
He showed full stop, that he respected her autonomy. No excuses, no pleading. Not really seeing the problem here.
He was really exemplary about it, the only problems with it are that a: it was Sarah’s sister and Sarah is aware that they’re attracted to one another at the very least, so doesn’t help her opinion of him and b: Joe was ready to get into bed with her despite her reminding him of Joyce in a couple ways, ways that did seem to end up messing with his head and probably will lead to as-yet unseen issues, if this ship can survive the Sarahpedoes. There is also the issue that this strip is showing a similar reflex that ended up with him and Liz nearly banging, which was fine then when both parties were available, but Joe and Joyce have not even had those conversations yet and given Joyce’s background, he is definitely going to need to assume that hooking up is no longer a thing he gets to do for now.
One thing Joe hasn’t shown is any ability to turn anyone down, even when he’s got reasons not to. We saw it with Malaya back when. We saw it with Liz, though there he did agonize a little. And may we even see it today, depending on how much he’s joking.
Wait, people can have sex with people they barely know? I’ve never heard of that happening, ever.
Not going to be? Well, if the guy whose main established hobby is saying whatever it takes to get women into bed says he’s “going” to change for you, did Joyce place a large bet against her own ship or what?
And no, Joe isn’t sarcastic. The clues are in how he changes his mind mid-sentence when he remembers he’s not supposed to jump in dick first whenever he smells an opportunity for sex anymore and awkwardly tries to explain he didn’t really mean to react like he did.
If he thought Sarah was joking and was playing along, his line in the last panel would maybe go something like. “Was that too much?” or “I think we’ve taken this bit far enough, can I come in now?”
I’m inclined to agree. And while I think Joe is sincere in wanting to have a relationship, I can see why Sarah thinks Joyce has fallen for an act designed to get her into bed. The way she is talking in the second panel has a tinge of old-Joyce rose-colored glasses. I know Joe messed up here, but possibly it will help Joyce understand that the emotional labor of Joe’s reformation won’t fall solely on him. She will also have to be patient and understanding or what is likely to be a long process.
This is what I’d call a twisted version of Jack Tripper, especially since he’s trying to date a Joyce.
If I had a quarter every time a Clinton says they’re horny for Joe, I’d have two quarters. Which ain’t much if they’re not state quarters.
I think Joe wouldn’t have done it. He was caught offguard by the comment and reverted to “old Joe” mode for a moment. My bet is he would have
caught himself and stopped before he finished undressing, despite his reply.
Checks Date
I mean, changing from being a douchebag to being a decent guy IS a change i believe can happen and is worth pursuing.
But if Joe has a desire to have a lot of different, loose sexual connections, he might not be suited well for monogamy. It *may* be part of him changing to start seeing women less as sex objects, but it *may* also be part of who he is as a sexual being to have many different partners without deep romantic connection. That part is not morally wrong as long as he’s not doing PUA shit anymore, but is respectful AND upfront about not looking for romance or anything.
But, will he *actually* be happy in a monogamous relationship, once the NRE (New Relationship Energy) wears off?!
Maybe not, but it’s okay for Joe to find out. This is just a college relationship. If he’s not happy in a few months, he can bow out. Joyce will be disappointed but if he doesn’t cheat on her I would say he hasn’t done anything wrong. Joyce needs to get over looking at every relationship as marriage material, so it might be good for he in a certain way.
Agreed. I just think they really, really need to have this conversation, and over and over. It’s not True Love Forever, this is not how college works, this is not how learning relationships works. I believe that the amount of time a relationship lasts is nearly irrelevant, as long as it’s a good relationship and people are being happy with each other. If you communicate well about your needs and wishes, and respect those of your partner, you will be okay. Even if it ends in a few months.
But Joyce is not aware that relationships can end, and by that i mean, that *her* relationship will end (for any other reason than finding out your partner is a gay guy). She seems to believe that a woman can magically change a man (because it’s TRUE LOVE!) and then it’s gonna last forever. She needs to become aware that she shouldn’t prescriptively expect that from a relationship.
If Joe couldn’t refrain from falling into Sarah’s trap here, when he knows full well she *hates* him, I cannot fathom that he’ll be able to hold out when he comes across someone who is actually interested. I no longer have any faith in Joe’s capacity to not cheat.
I mean, it depends on what he ultimately wants.
When I was in college, I had a bunch of casual relationships and one night stands. But I knew I eventually WANTED a monogamous relationship, marriage, kids, etc.
I’ve got that now. Sometimes I think about the times of casual relationships fondly, but I wouldn’t go back.
Joe might decide he WANTS that, maybe even with Joyce.
But then, maybe he doesn’t. And that’s ok too. College is a time of discovery, to figure out what you want.
Heck, maybe Joyce will decide she wants to be in a poly relationship. All things are possible
What if… Joyce discovers she wants to be in a polyam relationship… and Joe discovers he doesn’t?
Okay, new hopes for the future.
It’s heavily implied that Joyce is bi and doesn’t realize it yet.
And she’s been exposed to a polycule on her floor.
Dorothy/Joyce/Joe?
Eh, Dotty says she’s like a Kinsey 1, maybe not
Joe being the one not wanting to share with Dorothy? I’d like that a lot.
Joe has shown he puts Joyce’s wishes first, and that he’s got her back if he has a difference of opinion (i.e. shouting at Joyce’s mom instead of being the model lapdog gentleman). If he thought this was Joyce, then doing what she wanted coincided with his survival needs, his delayed gratification finally coming due. But with the trap sprung, he now has to give lame explanations to rebut Sarah’s perspective.
“If he thought this was Joyce”? He’s looking *straight at her* in panel 4 with a big dopey grin on his face. He didn’t think this was Joyce, he was knee-jerk reacting to literally the first woman to throw herself at him.
Malaya. Right after Joe had decided to reform…
I’m happy for Joe, but I wish he would see it as a change for himself, and Joyce is simply the type of girl he truly wants. Changing yourself just for one person never ends well.
I think he has been, even if she inspired a lot of it.
He was changing well before he admitted he might possibly be safe enough for Joyce.
Alternate ending.
Sarah, looking Joyce directly in the eye “See, I told you!”
Joe, looking confused “Wait, something’s not right here.”
Joyce, holding the camera “Can you give it to her a little softer, Joe? It looks a little forced.”
Well, that was a catastrophic fail on Joe’s part.
(That said this isn’t really a win for Sarah *either*, because the next panel is *either* going to be Joyce angry at Sarah and ignoring Joe’s fail or Joyce being shocked and hurt at how easily Joe switched back to default settings.)
It would be out of character for Joyce not to understand how deeply ingrained Joe’s default settings are.
goddammit joe
goddammit sarah
goddammit joyce
Damn You Willis!
Joe, stop being an idiot
Sarah, stop being a sabotaging bongo
Joyce…eh, you’re fine.
Seriously, the guy is trying to change, and you do that shit?
what’s next, gonna dangle a bottle of vodka in front of Ruth?
Guess the true dividing line between me at eighteen, and Joe (besides the obvious) is that my first reaction to Sarah’s ploy would’ve been ‘What??’ He’s not unintelligent, he’s had exposure to Sarah previously. Might’ve been “What? Why NOW??”
Clearly Joe has a much more idealized view of reality than I grew up with.
end of the day, if this it all it takes to sink Joy and Joyce’s relationship, there wasn’t enough there to actually build on.
Last panel Joe hides his … embarrassment?
All that masturbation and he’s still that horny?
Old habits die hard
Hahaha, hard…
Hah! I geddit!
PS: Please, Sarah. Don’t fuck your hate-sink.
This is a frustrating part of the story BECAUSE Sarah has every reason to act like this – She has not seen the soft, protective side of Joe. She has every reason to suspect that Joyce is being manipulated
And yet it still frustrates me to see
forgot to hit “post comment” so maybe someone else has noted this in the past 12 hours.
Even though Joe is probably not serious about having sex with Sarah, I think it’s moot, because both he and Joyce make Sarah’s point for her. They say he’s changing for Joyce. I think it’s more than that, I think he probably is changing for himself, because of Joyce, because of his conversations with Amber (I had links the first time I wrote this, sorry). But changing for someone else implies its provisional, not a real change. Joe’s skeptical his father is changing for real, for Stacy, for example.
And even though he’s probably joking about being willing to have sex with Sarah, he was willing to have sex with Liz at the drop of a hat. Nuances and all that, but Sarah is in the Goldilocks zone of torpedoing this ship. I think they can make it, but more importantly, Joe needs to figure out which version of him he prefers being, for himself.
So much of the character development in this comic, even the stuff that may seem over the top, feels completely true to life. Amber’s dissociative identity disorder. Checks out. Portrayal of various manifestations of autism. That tracks. Danny being the biggest pushover in the world. Been there. Super insane straining-belief mega-fundie parents. Sadly totally real. Walky’s gifted child ADHD shame-avoidance failing out of class. Totally real. Body-count Joe spending an afternoon with the woman he has a huge crush on, is dating, and obviously cares for, then two minutes later insta-jumps to take his clothes off for someone else, while Joyce is standing right there, *in the room*. I just can’t see it. Even for him.
You had one job, Joe.