Sarah wants to sort through Joyce’s baggage and then get kissed many times by her? Wait, which kid is she thinking of? Death before or after the kissing?
Is Joe really expecting Joyce to give him many kisses? Methinks Joyce may not have groked how seriously Sarah means that word. In this scenario, I think Joe’s hoping, but he seem’s pretty laid back expectations wise.
Yeah if your a year older you really shouldn’t be calling people kid in order to denote ones maturity, especially if you threaten ro murder them or maybe this might be manslaughter.
Stroll across a college campus and observe. Some students are still kids, some could pass for adjunct professors or visiting business leaders, and some swing from one pole to the other minute by minute. These are people on the cusp of first maturity, and their variance in development is often stark.
I remember at that age it was common to use “kid” to mean “peer.” Frankly, I think for us millennials it lasted longer than it should’ve – I think that’s sort of where it came from that Jefferson shouts “this kid is out!” at fifty.
I say she’s not a monster, she just cares for Joyce and hasn’t seen the evidence we have that Joe has changed from a blatant womanizer to a big old softie.
Sarah is a “monster” because of the scene with Lucy. Towards Joyce she has more authority to interfere as the “big sister” as long as Joyce doesn’t take away her title
Sarah was in the right and Lucy was in the wrong. Lucy ignored the friend group that repeatedly shut down her attempts to call Sarah out, including Joyce, and tried to ambush Sarah alone like a bully despite being very new to said social group.
Sarah, meanwhile, gave excellent advice that was rudely phrased.
“Stand there waving to Walky and Amber as they walked away, minding her own business, when Sarah came up behind Lucy of her own volition to give Lucy unsolicited, unwanted, snarky, and hateful ‘advice,’ to which Lucy, naturally, respond poorly” is an exceedingly odd definition for the word “ambush.” If anyone was the “bully” in that interaction, it wasn’t Lucy.
Sarah ambushed Lucy to badmouth Lucy’s boyfriend (said boyfriend being is nominally one of Sarah’s “friends”) behind his back, like the asshole that she is, and then started insulting Lucy for not accepting said insults.
That’s after the scene where Sarah proved herself a horrible person by humiliating Joyce (in front of Lucy) for the lolz, and Lucy like the good person that she isd stood up to Sarah and made her second-guess how much a friend she actually is if she elicits joy from hurting her so-called “friends”.
Seriously FUCK the gaslight abusive idea that to be abusive is what friendship is all about. Sarah and everyone who thinks like her can burn in hell.
Monster this, asshole that, whatever. Instead of being hyperbolically judgemental, I choose to be a different kind of insufferable and say that Sarah’s being a cockblock. Or smoochblock, as the case may be. Either way, she’s interfering in matters beyond her station as a roommate.
Joyce is not a child. She’s a college student. She’s allowed to make choices – even choices you disagree with, Sarah-and-Dorothy! – and make mistakes and kiss people if she wants!
I think it’s less about not respecting Joyce’s decision and more that Joe has been unrelentingly creepy until very recently. Especially to Sarah. He pretty much told Sarah he was going fix Joyce with his dick when they first met. That’s not something you let go of easily. Dorothy is more willing to trust him than Sarah is. I think that lines up well with their experiences with him.
That, and Mike’s shittiness infecting a bunch of the cast members, have been my two big complaints about the time skip. So much happened in such a short period of in-universe time that most of the cast getting put in stasis during the timeskip has left a lot of interactions in weird off-balance places.
We know that Joe started off pretty scummy, and that Joyce was mostly the only person who really saw his changing in the first two months of school, but what happened during the rest of October, and November and December? Was Joe hooking up with other girls to distract himself from Joyce in that time? Liz’s appearance made it seem like he was a recovering addict and someone dropped a gallon jug of his poison of choice in front of him.
I was under the impression that he’s mostly been keeping to himself, but I suppose “Dude who has historically been A Problem is currently not a problem” files under “Dude’s just waiting to restart being A Problem” instead of “Dude’s cleaning up his act.”
He WAS a little sketchy. “Fix her with my penis” is definitely the low standard. But that we haven’t seen him behaving like a douche in a while, including some change before the time skip, then people mostly treating him like it’s move-in day, keeps tripping me.
We have seen him behaving like a douche though, just even more performatively. Other than with Joyce and a bit with Danny, he keeps trying to keep up the pretense he’s basically the same.
Like this scene. And the following page. He’s not really trying, but doing enough to avoid changing his image.
As for “an active sex life” 1) that’s not the problem and it’s never been the problem, but if the creepy dude who has an active sex like by obsessively hitting on every sex object he talks to continues to have that active sex life after supposedly reforming, it’s not surprising people wonder.
2) Part of my larger problem with Joe’s portrayal is that we don’t really know if Joe still had (before this thing with Joyce) an active sex life. Or really, ever did. Did he ever hook up with anyone besides the ones we specifically know about? (Roz, a couple times. Penny. Malaya.) We know he exaggerated. I was actually pretty sure he’d stopped and was never that successful, but during the Liz thing Danny implied he was still being regularly sexiled.
Very good points.
Yeah, Willis *has* sort of allowed this character to be read as an unfairly maligned but harmless straight cis bro whose only crime is being an enthusiastic heterosexual. It’s a bit iffy and i don’t love it
If Joe didn’t want to be maligned, he could have been less malignant earlier on. First impressions matter. To some people, they’re the only impressions that matter. Nowadays he’s not being that way, but the damage is already done. Once a reputation has been established, fair or not, you have to fight tooth and nail to un-establish it.
Has he? I don’t think that’s what’s been happening at all. Joe has been slowly (and frequently painfully) learning that the way he started out (in thie comic) was bad and harmful, and has been trying to be better. And it hasn’t been a linear process.
Yeah, i agree. But Joe is the only main POV character showing clear red flags re: his relationships to women. I don’t really mind his particular character arc but within the story you have totally evil rapists like Ryan and then all the way off to the “almost harmless” end of the spectrum you have Joe. It would be a different story if he was one of several problematic cis men, with varying levels of self-awareness. For instance i dont think we see much in the way of male solidarity in-universe. you know? It’s like his struggle is purely, like, psychoanalytical.
Idk. The vibes around Joe annoy me, perhaps im not yet quite sure why
More of a range would help, I think. We have actual blatant drugging rapist and we have Joe who’s got huge red flags, but seems to be pretty decent. And has definitely improved.
It’s not milu’s issue with him I think, but one of my big issues is exactly that he did have tons of red flags, but he’s portrayed as if they really shouldn’t have meant anything.
Also that his seductions and sex life have always been offscreen, except for that first date and him getting shot down by a couple of cast members. Makes it hard to judge how he behaved with women who didn’t come on to him or instantly reacted with yells and threats like Sarah (or punches like Joyce early on).
1) you know what, i don’t know. I would certainly feel better about this comment section being super defensive of Joe if i’d seen the same people taking a clear stance on sexist attitudes when the same sort of stakes are involved (central POV character, straight romance) but there is no convenient redemption arc.
2) As for male solidarity, i mean, what does joe’s social circle look like? We’ve seen Sanny, and like, one scene with Jacob. In my experience boys tend to congregate together and encourage each other’s worst behaviour. And i think that validation from male peers of acting despicable to women/queer folk/marginalized men is a big part of the socialization of teenage boys into adult enforcers of patriarchy.
@milu
1) Yeah, I think the comments section could have done to be a lot more critical of Joe, but I have a lot of other problems with the comments section as well and I try not to let my feelings about that influence the comic itself.
2) Danny has been the biggest aspect, and to that end I really liked how he also got interrogated as to how much he was enabling Joe, which I think also went a long way towards Joe’s development. I grant you a lot of that is me reading into it and interpreting things that happened out of sight, so it’s a fair criticism.
adults can make bad and hurtful choices, too. most people in my family would be better off right now if someone had sat them down and explained that they were dating a piece of shit and how they should expect to be treated. sarah is unlikely to be very soft in how she does it but she isn’t inherently wrong for trying to keep her traumatized friend from a misogynistic cultlike upbringing away from known womanizers.
To be fair, Joe was never the kind of sleaze bag Sarah is making him out to be rn, IE the kind of guy that expects that doing a lady a favor means she owes him some kind of sexual repayment. He’s definitely got his problems but that was thankfully never one of them.
You mean like Joe was right before their first date? He made out like he just wanted a date and as soon as Joyce was gone he started talking about how he was going to ‘upgrade her from a four to a ten’ and ‘fix her with his penis’.
Joe has been a creep about Joyce. I’m not gonna blame Sarah for kicking him to the curb.
Joe has definitely been a creep, I won’t fight you on that one at all. But I don’t think he was deceitful about it. Joe asked out Joyce and she pretty much instantly jumped at the chance to date him without even considering his motives (until the actual date, when she very effectively precluded them). I think there’s a general understanding in American society that when an adult asks another adult out, there’s a pretty good chance they might be interested in sex. In general I think we’ve seen Joe wear his creepiness on his sleeve, as opposed to say Ryan, who deliberately concealed it under a veneer of purity.
Sounds like you haven’t reread that section in awhile.
For one thing, Joyce has a whole questionnaire for him prior to the date which includes “Do you believe in the sanctity of marriage?” to which Joe answers “Uh, sure, why not”
When Joyce introduces Mike as their chaperone, Joe takes him aside out of Joyce’s earshot to try to bribe him with $50 to “get lost” during the date.
At every stage Joyce makes entirely clear what her expectations are, and Joe keeps playing along, while expecting he’ll be able to talk her into it anyway, until he gets sick of being punched in the face and bails.
*Replying to Tan*
Huh, actually that’s a fair point, I forgot about how he tried to secretly bribe Mike. Okay, I take it back, Joe was somewhat deceitful.
He wasn’t lying or actively pretending to not want sex tho. My understanding is that when two adults are on a first date, they both understand the other might be looking for sex, and I think it would be kinda terrifying if Joe just walked up to Joyce and said “Hi, I want to have sex with you.”
The way Joe has talked to and about women was often very disrespectful, people who do that deserve to be criticized for it (also, sharing that horrible list). But being *interested* in finding many sexual partners is not the same matter.
While he was very much a creep sometimes in how he phrased things, in a lot of ways Joe is a very mature individual when it comes to the actual nature of consent and such. Having an active, casual sex life is not bad, inherently. It’s only a problem if you start thinking of other people (in this case women) as numbers the way he was.
Treating women as if they are objects only worth interacting with if they dispense sex is not at a sign of maturity. And given that multiple women have had to yell at him to get him to stop hitting on them, I’d say his understanding of consent isn’t that great.
I think womanizer has the implication that you let your partner think you are looking for a deeper relationship when you only want sex. It doesn’t make me think of someone who is upfront about only wanting casual sex. At the start of the comic we see Joe act charming in front of Joyce and ask her on a date, while confiding to Danny that he wants to break her in. So I think there was a gap between his intentions and the way he presented himself.
They are different because patriarchy. There’s a reason sex-positive feminists of all genders have been reclaiming the word “slut” while no feminist is clamoring for the destigmatizatisation of “womanizer”. The issue is rather that outside progressive circles its not stigmatizing *enough*
Differences in power are very real, that falls under the category of “context”. You’re right to talk about context, it’s really important. But I said “principally”. I’m saying that the principal of the matter is that womanizer and slut are both terms that effectively describe the same thing.
My attitude is that the more you generally strengthen an attitude regarding a principal (IE people that have many sexual partners), the more effectively you protect the vulnerable people that can specifically be harmed by a violation of that principal (IE women that have many sexual partners).
It’s funny, when I think about “player”, I immediately associate that term with “cheater” and “liar”. Like, if you catch them they’ll say “Don’t hate the player, hate the game”.
Men don’t get harassed, assaulted, stalked, and lots things I can’t say here for the sake of people’s mental health for sleeping around. Oh, unless it’s with other men of course. Womanizers are “sly”, sluts are regarded as subhuman.
The thing is, even when you’re right, sitting someone down and explaining why their romantic partner is a piece of shit does not work to get people out of bad relationships. If anything, it tends to driver them harder into the arms of their POS of choice.
At the very least, Sarah’s expecting him to be a douche eventually and break Joyce’s heart, and *then* Sarah will do the murdering. We have no evidence that she’s going to do things in the wrong order yet!
I don’t maybe its in a “Billy the Kid” kind of way. Maybe she means to kill him “Pistols at Dawn” Spaghetti Western Style, with all the cast either quickly closing or peeking out of their dorm rooms as the pair square up in the hall. A single tumble weed of hair from under a bed drifting by, as the clock on the wall ticks up to High Noon. I mean if you are going to jail for murder – might as well go down in style.
*thinks* So the Baby-Sitter Club books lead me to believe people USians typically finish middle school and thus start high school at 14 – so after 3 years of high school they’ll be approximately 17… so if no gap year they would be starting college at 17!! I guess that does help to explain just how overbearing some of the parents can be..? Their minors are living away from home!
(TIL! I had assumed the last HS year was when they’re 17-18 so they start college a solid 18. And the babies would be people like me who turn 19 in July/August
I don’t think I can really pinpoint any single moment when I started feeling like an adult. I guess it was sort of a gradual transition during the few years between when I finished undergrad and when I started teaching.
i’m sure she begrudgingly would’ve if joyce looked super busy/messy and joining in after becky helping out or so but yeah i imagine she wouldn’t have rly prioritized it (tho sorting through papers like this is prolly more pleasant than talking to joyces moom)
I like how she’s almost going out of her way to not explain the full context here in a way that almost makes it sound like some payment he worked out with her, despite the two never having kissed yet.
In any case, Joyce is being defiant, and understandably so. She’s gone through the song and dance with Dorothy about her stifling Joyce, and now it’s Sarah’s turn. I guess we’ll see if she handles it with the grace Dorothy (eventually) did.
I’m hoping that this will turn just heated enough for them to both abandon defensive stances and actually address their issues. “What?” “What?” And then cool down and maybe even try to understand each other.
I feel like someone, at some point, would have been told she’s been befriending the dude for months, but I doubt Dorothy would ever be that person, Sarah’s been extra spicy… it’s probably either Bevky or someone who fundamentally doesn’t care.
She’s picking these fights to make a point, I think. That growth and late teenage rebellion is a whole Thing right now.
Sarah should table that murder for after she earns her law degree. That way she can represent herself and avoid incurring legal fees on top of whatever student loan debt she’ll have, in case any further scholarships are less than well-funded.
2500 years ago, the Oracle of Delphi was very confused.
“I see…a girl who wears the barbaric pants of the northmen, facing down a warlike amazon most fierce to defend the honour of her beau, a young man with a chin like Agammemnon. I foresee…that womens clothes STILL won’t have pockets.”
That’s not what she said at all. “Beau” was way too clean a term for the Pythia, you see. She was honestly kind of a potty mouth, so a lot of her visions had to be tidied a little before they could be written down.
I like that all of the Dorothy/Roz/etc mothering has now put Joyce into a position where she looks at her big sis directly in the eyes and says “I am dating him and I know you’re not going to approve and I *dare* you to challenge me on this.” She’s growing up!
Sarah knows Joyce has no interest in being bribed by sex, she can barely even talk about masturbation without freezing up and screaming that it’s all lies; I think this is just Joyce’s way of ripping off the bandaid so Sarah doesn’t think she’s getting tricked into it. Joe would absolutely harbor some kind of ulterior motive and she’s saying “yes, we’re both aware of it”
I mean… is it a “card”?? I get that you’re joking but Sarah got really worried about her sister, (whether rightly or wrongly doesn’t affect my point,) and she saw Joyce get really excited about breaking some rules and behave a lot like Liz all of a sudden.
It’s fine, it’s a story and so on but it’s weird to me that we are so unanimously empathetic to Joyce and Joe here, and few of us seem to have much understanding or patience or actually? admiration for Sarah.
Like, i know from Joyce’s perspective she’s a busybody but she’s really trying to do the right thing. She’s not perfect but she cares and worries. How many of us really *do* something when we suspect that a friend is in danger of intimate violence/abuse? That’s what this is about, for Sarah.
I don’t the the figurative card up the sleeve is about Joyce being like Liz. I think it’s about Joe and Liz, and Joyce may be sensitive about the timing.
Right right. But precisely Sarah is concerned about both Liz and Joyce. She sees them as easily fooled by a charming piece of shit like Joe. It turns out she’s wrong about Joe because the plot said so, but she has good reason to worry.
Now, Sarah gonna Sarah. She might not bring this up in the most delicate manner. But that won’t mean it doesn’t come from a place of genuine concern
Actually, I’m not so emphatic with them, and I understand about Sarah.
(Tbh, as big brother, sometimes I feel the urge to protect, too).
The card thing is a potential information Sarah can use against the couple.
Agreed. I can see why Joyce used the words, particularly after experiencing Dorothy’s take, but Sarah really doesn’t have the context to hear them the way Joyce is saying them.
Not that it’s okay that Sarah has already forcibly ejected a guest Joyce has been clear about welcoming in this instance.
I don’t think it’s Joyce who’s making Sarah think it’s a transaction given that it was Sarah who asked what Joe was expecting in return. I think Sarah thought that all on her own.
I strongly feel that Joyce *intentionally* chose to express herself in this fashion; her making it seem transactional isn’t accidental. She’s looking very defiant/ ‘I’m a big kid now!’ here, and implying that she’s exchanging favors for sexual ones sounds (from an immature viewpoint) very grown up…
It’s Sarah’s choice to interpret her words that way and, frankly, it’s Joyce’s choice if she wants to follow through. She can give Joe as many kisses as she wants in return for his services and Sarah truly has no say in the matter.
Sarah? In addition to all the other comments from the peanut gallery, you might also want to consider that trying to hurt people that Joyce cares about TENDS TO GO BADLY for whoever makes the attempt.
I think Sarah’s just working with incomplete information here, and while I don’t think she’s gonna be happy about it, I think she’ll back off if Joyce elaborates on the situation.
I too expect Becky to be more positive, if only because Joe meets her basic criteria for acceptability as a Joyce-partner: he thinks Joyce and Joyce’s pants are gosh-danged glorious.
* just to clarify, AFTER it is clear that Joyce decided to date him and is comfortable etc. she’s maybe being worse now, but all she knows so far is ‘Joe was in our room’ and ‘Joe might be kissing Joyce’
I’ve been appreciating how both Joyce and Joe have been earning this relationship by going through the skeptical friend crucible, person by person. Joe has to take on the chin all these moments of Joyce’s friends trying to fiercely protect her, and Joyce has to grit her teeth and repeatedly declare her autonomy.
I was on her side when she told off Lucy for being a judgmental brat with horribly naive ideas about dating, but right now Sarah needs to fuck right off.
yeah. Everybody needs to ASK JOYCE what she wants, instead of patronizing her. They are well-meaning, and i get it, it’s *JOE*, and also with her trauma with roofie guy, i get it that they are protective, but they also gotta let her make her own choices….
I do think that it’s fair if friends point out their concerns when i’m dating someone they think is not good for me, but in the end, it needs to be up to me. I might realize a while later that they were right about the person, but sometimes i gotta learn my own lessons. Only when there’s serious abuse happening, people need to step up and do an intervention. If i’d still not listen, then i can only hope the friends will still be around by the time i ask for help to get out.
Sometimes it’s really hard to see your friends make dumb decisions…….
That’s it, really. I think so far Dorothy and Sarah have gone “The FUCK you are dating Joe.” Dorothy tried a little to get to actually talking about the matter, but was derailed by Joyce’s neuroses. So far Sarah’s been pretty closed on the matter, which, uh, she can’t do because it’s Joyce’s consent to give.
As this comment section’s most volatile autist, I officially diagnose Sarah with Violent Grump Disorder. There’s a small amount of overlap/comorbidity, but they’re not actually the same thing once you get past the superficial similarities.
Yep, Sarah’s big sister mode has activated. Even if she does know about some of Joe’s development (and I’m not sure she does), that bit might be fine for other people, but it is in no way sufficient for her little sister.
That’s been one of the big issues around Joyce. A *lot* of people have a tendency to treat her as a child who doesn’t know what’s best for her. Now initially, she was VERY sheltered and naive and probably did need people to sort of guide her, but she doesn’t now and they haven’t all switched to seeing her as her own person.
It’s weird how everyone has a double standard for how Dorothy and Sarah reacted, except for me. For me, I see the nuances that everyone else is missing, unless they agree with me.
if people want to hate Joe based on how his character started out, that’s perfectly fine because first impressions tend to stick. but like we can’t deny the dude is undergoing a serious arc and is actually a really good example of how people with shitty attitudes can change. I actually do know some cis men who look back on their hs/early college selves with a healthy amount of cringe because they shared similar attitudes to early Joe.
Is anyone actually hating on Joe here? I mean people in the comments who’ve seen his character arc.
Or are they/we pointing out that it’s not unreasonable for Sarah to not accept his character development on faith when she hasn’t really seen any of it?
I’ve seen far more hating on Sarah today than Joe.
Joe had a rough start, but he found a good woman and wants to be better for her.
That sounds like a good character arc to me.
all the thots on earth can’t compare to the girl that captured your heart, instead of your D.
Yeah, this comment I think is meant to be pointing at Sarah not believing Joe can change, and perhaps even struggling to see Joyce’s growth as well.
On the other hand, I agree with you that it’s reasonable that Sarah wouldn’t believe Joe has changed too much. Wasn’t it like a week ago in comic time that he was picking up her sister and nearly spending the night with her? I can’t remember if she knew about that at all, but it certainly would put a wrench in the works for convincing her that he’s reformed. And yes, the comments section tends to love hating in Sarah, because she is a prickly and difficult person. But frankly, Sarah does not need to change Sarah, Sarah has Been Through It and will continue to Go Through It at least until college is done, what she needs is someone who still loves her despite being prickly in a way that lets her finally start trusting and healing, and from there hopefully she will become less prickly just by dint of needing to defend herself and her loved ones less.
Errrh… I just don’t bought his redemption arc. Or maybe it still will came one day.
And there’s other reasons I don’t like him so much.
But someone had commented week ago, that Joyce knows that Joe is like this. That her date is like a rebels action, to get ride of her old religious past.
I respect that, and personally I’m trying to inspire on her.
Joyce. Joyce, no. Joyce, why? This is not conveying what you want to convey!
Sidenote, he is not even expecting that in return! Up to this point, Joyce put kisses off-limits because she is afraid she lacks the self-control to stop at face-kisses, and Joe is respecting that boundary.
(This exchange seems entirely in-character for Joyce, and I’m enjoying watching this trainwreck. Don’t @ me.)
I hope Joyce quickly clarifies that these are not conditions that Joe set, and that he doesn’t even have any conditions; the kisses are just Joyce’s idea of a good reward.
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Sarah: “because *I* WANT TO DO THAT”
…wait no?
Sarah wants to sort through Joyce’s baggage and then get kissed many times by her? Wait, which kid is she thinking of? Death before or after the kissing?
Wait, YES.
Is Joe really expecting Joyce to give him many kisses? Methinks Joyce may not have groked how seriously Sarah means that word. In this scenario, I think Joe’s hoping, but he seem’s pretty laid back expectations wise.
oh yea, all I see Joe expecting from this is good happy chat times
D e a t h
D u r i n g
D i s h o n o r
W i t h K i s s e s.
Wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom
NOOOO I was trying to reply and accidentally flagged! How do I unflag
Don’t worry about. Willis’ system doesn’t do things arbitrarily.
Have a great day.
Kid?
Pika pika?
Who exactly is she referring to on the last panel?
Joe, presumably.
Joe
Pretty sure she’s referring to Joe as “that kid” in the last panel. She’s a year older than (or, at least, a year ahead of) Joe and Joyce.
Yeah if your a year older you really shouldn’t be calling people kid in order to denote ones maturity, especially if you threaten ro murder them or maybe this might be manslaughter.
It’s just colloquial I think.
They’re all kids, really. I mean, not age-wise, but in terms of life experience and all that.
eh, kind of rubs me the wrong way to be calling college students “kids”?
eh, once you are of a certain age, whether or not you admit it, or say it out loud, EVERYONE’s a kid.
I have absolutely no problem mentally referring to anyone under, say, 30, as a kid, because they are, to me.
I’m 26, living alone, and adulting, I still kind of think of myself as a kid.
I’m 23 and because the panini hit when I was 19 and just starting my second semester of college I feel like I never developed past that age
Pro tip: EVERYONE is kids, even folks in paliative care, playing shuffle board, or negotiating disarmarment treaties. They’re just in big bodies.
Yup. Just like every dog is a pupper, no matter how grizzled their muzzle.
“Sadly true,” thought the old guy on Medicare who watches cartoons and reads comics…
(Though I have a colleague who is just under two years older than I am, who has called me ‘young man’ for almost 20 years)
Stroll across a college campus and observe. Some students are still kids, some could pass for adjunct professors or visiting business leaders, and some swing from one pole to the other minute by minute. These are people on the cusp of first maturity, and their variance in development is often stark.
If your age ends in -teen I’m gonna keep calling you kid
eleventyteen?
me reading Arlo and Janice last night, “ah, look at those crazy kids enjoying their retirement, good for them.” DoA comment section, D:<
Basically. This is how people talk. “kid” doesn’t always mean literal child or even imply that person is like a child.
She’s calling Joe an immature goat.
This made me chuckle. Thank you for this best response.
In my experience growing up in the USA, referring to college kids as kids is totally normal and has little to do with the maturity of the speaker.
I remember at that age it was common to use “kid” to mean “peer.” Frankly, I think for us millennials it lasted longer than it should’ve – I think that’s sort of where it came from that Jefferson shouts “this kid is out!” at fifty.
That’s kinda hot.
Yeah it will be quite the joy,
and probably in front of a bonfire nonetheless!
😍
Some women wear homicidal fury well, and Sarah’s one of them.
Fess up, Yotomoe, you’ve *already* drawn Joyce & Sarah kissing, while Joe is tied up in the corner, crying.
Haha naw. I like Joe enough that he wouldn’t be tied up or crying.
Unless it’s tears of joy.
“Two hot chicks making out in front of me, this is the greatest day of my life.”
Exactly: tied up and egging them on.
Tied up and they’re making out on top of him.
Keep going…
It is easily what I like most about atheist Joyce. She is brave as fuck, its super hot
Confidence. Is. Sexy.
Right??
Literally the first comic that I thought of Joyce as anything more than a mildly interesting character was this one and I was just like okay, Joyce is hot now
Different experience here. Joyce has always had confidence and spunk. The change is new confidence in herself.
Especially if she keeps making that face the whole time and does it just to spite Sarah
Never breaks eye contact.
It too early to murder him though. Save that for the series finale!
I know it’s been this way since the timeskip, I just wanted to mention that I love Sarah’s current hairdo.
Over/under on how many people in the comments section going ‘oh wow Sarah is an absolute monster!’ today?
I say she’s not a monster, she just cares for Joyce and hasn’t seen the evidence we have that Joe has changed from a blatant womanizer to a big old softie.
Sarah is a “monster” because of the scene with Lucy. Towards Joyce she has more authority to interfere as the “big sister” as long as Joyce doesn’t take away her title
Sarah was in the right and Lucy was in the wrong. Lucy ignored the friend group that repeatedly shut down her attempts to call Sarah out, including Joyce, and tried to ambush Sarah alone like a bully despite being very new to said social group.
Sarah, meanwhile, gave excellent advice that was rudely phrased.
“Stand there waving to Walky and Amber as they walked away, minding her own business, when Sarah came up behind Lucy of her own volition to give Lucy unsolicited, unwanted, snarky, and hateful ‘advice,’ to which Lucy, naturally, respond poorly” is an exceedingly odd definition for the word “ambush.” If anyone was the “bully” in that interaction, it wasn’t Lucy.
Sarah ambushed Lucy to badmouth Lucy’s boyfriend (said boyfriend being is nominally one of Sarah’s “friends”) behind his back, like the asshole that she is, and then started insulting Lucy for not accepting said insults.
That’s after the scene where Sarah proved herself a horrible person by humiliating Joyce (in front of Lucy) for the lolz, and Lucy like the good person that she isd stood up to Sarah and made her second-guess how much a friend she actually is if she elicits joy from hurting her so-called “friends”.
Seriously FUCK the gaslight abusive idea that to be abusive is what friendship is all about. Sarah and everyone who thinks like her can burn in hell.
To be fair, said boyfriend is currently in his ex’s room contemplating whether to remove his bottoms before playing her games.
Ambushing is when I’m approached by somebody else, yes, of course.
Re-read the strip.
Monster this, asshole that, whatever. Instead of being hyperbolically judgemental, I choose to be a different kind of insufferable and say that Sarah’s being a cockblock. Or smoochblock, as the case may be. Either way, she’s interfering in matters beyond her station as a roommate.
Clam jam.
Ahh, fly honey. I get it.
You can’t murder him now, Sarah, it isn’t even the tenth book of the season yet.
A bad start to this conversation, but not a particularly surprising one. The cast can’t all be as understanding and generally spectacular as Dina.
Joyce is not a child. She’s a college student. She’s allowed to make choices – even choices you disagree with, Sarah-and-Dorothy! – and make mistakes and kiss people if she wants!
I think it’s less about not respecting Joyce’s decision and more that Joe has been unrelentingly creepy until very recently. Especially to Sarah. He pretty much told Sarah he was going fix Joyce with his dick when they first met. That’s not something you let go of easily. Dorothy is more willing to trust him than Sarah is. I think that lines up well with their experiences with him.
Yes, well, it’s not like Joyce doesn’t know that Joe was like that. Joyce is allowed to date Joe even if he’s very creepy.
That, and Mike’s shittiness infecting a bunch of the cast members, have been my two big complaints about the time skip. So much happened in such a short period of in-universe time that most of the cast getting put in stasis during the timeskip has left a lot of interactions in weird off-balance places.
We know that Joe started off pretty scummy, and that Joyce was mostly the only person who really saw his changing in the first two months of school, but what happened during the rest of October, and November and December? Was Joe hooking up with other girls to distract himself from Joyce in that time? Liz’s appearance made it seem like he was a recovering addict and someone dropped a gallon jug of his poison of choice in front of him.
I was under the impression that he’s mostly been keeping to himself, but I suppose “Dude who has historically been A Problem is currently not a problem” files under “Dude’s just waiting to restart being A Problem” instead of “Dude’s cleaning up his act.”
Implying that having an active sex life is a problem? Cause otherwise we haven’t seen him behaving like a douche in a while.
He WAS a little sketchy. “Fix her with my penis” is definitely the low standard. But that we haven’t seen him behaving like a douche in a while, including some change before the time skip, then people mostly treating him like it’s move-in day, keeps tripping me.
We have seen him behaving like a douche though, just even more performatively. Other than with Joyce and a bit with Danny, he keeps trying to keep up the pretense he’s basically the same.
Like this scene. And the following page. He’s not really trying, but doing enough to avoid changing his image.
As for “an active sex life” 1) that’s not the problem and it’s never been the problem, but if the creepy dude who has an active sex like by obsessively hitting on every sex object he talks to continues to have that active sex life after supposedly reforming, it’s not surprising people wonder.
2) Part of my larger problem with Joe’s portrayal is that we don’t really know if Joe still had (before this thing with Joyce) an active sex life. Or really, ever did. Did he ever hook up with anyone besides the ones we specifically know about? (Roz, a couple times. Penny. Malaya.) We know he exaggerated. I was actually pretty sure he’d stopped and was never that successful, but during the Liz thing Danny implied he was still being regularly sexiled.
Very good points.
Yeah, Willis *has* sort of allowed this character to be read as an unfairly maligned but harmless straight cis bro whose only crime is being an enthusiastic heterosexual. It’s a bit iffy and i don’t love it
If Joe didn’t want to be maligned, he could have been less malignant earlier on. First impressions matter. To some people, they’re the only impressions that matter. Nowadays he’s not being that way, but the damage is already done. Once a reputation has been established, fair or not, you have to fight tooth and nail to un-establish it.
Has he? I don’t think that’s what’s been happening at all. Joe has been slowly (and frequently painfully) learning that the way he started out (in thie comic) was bad and harmful, and has been trying to be better. And it hasn’t been a linear process.
Yeah, i agree. But Joe is the only main POV character showing clear red flags re: his relationships to women. I don’t really mind his particular character arc but within the story you have totally evil rapists like Ryan and then all the way off to the “almost harmless” end of the spectrum you have Joe. It would be a different story if he was one of several problematic cis men, with varying levels of self-awareness. For instance i dont think we see much in the way of male solidarity in-universe. you know? It’s like his struggle is purely, like, psychoanalytical.
Idk. The vibes around Joe annoy me, perhaps im not yet quite sure why
I’m not sure I understand. Would you feel better about Joe if there were more main cast characters with problematic approaches to women?
I’m also not entirely sure what you mean about male solidarity. Solidarity in what terms, over what topics?
More of a range would help, I think. We have actual blatant drugging rapist and we have Joe who’s got huge red flags, but seems to be pretty decent. And has definitely improved.
It’s not milu’s issue with him I think, but one of my big issues is exactly that he did have tons of red flags, but he’s portrayed as if they really shouldn’t have meant anything.
Also that his seductions and sex life have always been offscreen, except for that first date and him getting shot down by a couple of cast members. Makes it hard to judge how he behaved with women who didn’t come on to him or instantly reacted with yells and threats like Sarah (or punches like Joyce early on).
1) you know what, i don’t know. I would certainly feel better about this comment section being super defensive of Joe if i’d seen the same people taking a clear stance on sexist attitudes when the same sort of stakes are involved (central POV character, straight romance) but there is no convenient redemption arc.
2) As for male solidarity, i mean, what does joe’s social circle look like? We’ve seen Sanny, and like, one scene with Jacob. In my experience boys tend to congregate together and encourage each other’s worst behaviour. And i think that validation from male peers of acting despicable to women/queer folk/marginalized men is a big part of the socialization of teenage boys into adult enforcers of patriarchy.
@milu
1) Yeah, I think the comments section could have done to be a lot more critical of Joe, but I have a lot of other problems with the comments section as well and I try not to let my feelings about that influence the comic itself.
2) Danny has been the biggest aspect, and to that end I really liked how he also got interrogated as to how much he was enabling Joe, which I think also went a long way towards Joe’s development. I grant you a lot of that is me reading into it and interpreting things that happened out of sight, so it’s a fair criticism.
When I was Joe’s present age, there was a saying: those who talk about it most, do it the least.
Often true and I definitely leaned in that direction – but then Danny talked about being frequently sexiled, so —
ironic, because it’s Dorothy who tried to fix Joyce by making her cum.
Man, that sequence just keeps getting worse and worse.
adults can make bad and hurtful choices, too. most people in my family would be better off right now if someone had sat them down and explained that they were dating a piece of shit and how they should expect to be treated. sarah is unlikely to be very soft in how she does it but she isn’t inherently wrong for trying to keep her traumatized friend from a misogynistic cultlike upbringing away from known womanizers.
To be fair, Joe was never the kind of sleaze bag Sarah is making him out to be rn, IE the kind of guy that expects that doing a lady a favor means she owes him some kind of sexual repayment. He’s definitely got his problems but that was thankfully never one of them.
He was never the “sex as payment” type, but he WAS the “only interested in one thing” type.
Sure but that’s only a problem if you’re being deceitful about it
You mean like Joe was right before their first date? He made out like he just wanted a date and as soon as Joyce was gone he started talking about how he was going to ‘upgrade her from a four to a ten’ and ‘fix her with his penis’.
Joe has been a creep about Joyce. I’m not gonna blame Sarah for kicking him to the curb.
Joe has definitely been a creep, I won’t fight you on that one at all. But I don’t think he was deceitful about it. Joe asked out Joyce and she pretty much instantly jumped at the chance to date him without even considering his motives (until the actual date, when she very effectively precluded them). I think there’s a general understanding in American society that when an adult asks another adult out, there’s a pretty good chance they might be interested in sex. In general I think we’ve seen Joe wear his creepiness on his sleeve, as opposed to say Ryan, who deliberately concealed it under a veneer of purity.
Sounds like you haven’t reread that section in awhile.
For one thing, Joyce has a whole questionnaire for him prior to the date which includes “Do you believe in the sanctity of marriage?” to which Joe answers “Uh, sure, why not”
When Joyce introduces Mike as their chaperone, Joe takes him aside out of Joyce’s earshot to try to bribe him with $50 to “get lost” during the date.
At every stage Joyce makes entirely clear what her expectations are, and Joe keeps playing along, while expecting he’ll be able to talk her into it anyway, until he gets sick of being punched in the face and bails.
*Replying to Tan*
Huh, actually that’s a fair point, I forgot about how he tried to secretly bribe Mike. Okay, I take it back, Joe was somewhat deceitful.
He wasn’t lying or actively pretending to not want sex tho. My understanding is that when two adults are on a first date, they both understand the other might be looking for sex, and I think it would be kinda terrifying if Joe just walked up to Joyce and said “Hi, I want to have sex with you.”
No, no openly reducing every woman you talk to to a sex object is very much a problem
The way Joe has talked to and about women was often very disrespectful, people who do that deserve to be criticized for it (also, sharing that horrible list). But being *interested* in finding many sexual partners is not the same matter.
While he was very much a creep sometimes in how he phrased things, in a lot of ways Joe is a very mature individual when it comes to the actual nature of consent and such. Having an active, casual sex life is not bad, inherently. It’s only a problem if you start thinking of other people (in this case women) as numbers the way he was.
Treating women as if they are objects only worth interacting with if they dispense sex is not at a sign of maturity. And given that multiple women have had to yell at him to get him to stop hitting on them, I’d say his understanding of consent isn’t that great.
Also… i mean is calling a man a “womanizer” principally any different from calling a woman a “slut”? Basically comes down to the number of partners
I think womanizer has the implication that you let your partner think you are looking for a deeper relationship when you only want sex. It doesn’t make me think of someone who is upfront about only wanting casual sex. At the start of the comic we see Joe act charming in front of Joyce and ask her on a date, while confiding to Danny that he wants to break her in. So I think there was a gap between his intentions and the way he presented himself.
They are different because patriarchy. There’s a reason sex-positive feminists of all genders have been reclaiming the word “slut” while no feminist is clamoring for the destigmatizatisation of “womanizer”. The issue is rather that outside progressive circles its not stigmatizing *enough*
Differences in power are very real, that falls under the category of “context”. You’re right to talk about context, it’s really important. But I said “principally”. I’m saying that the principal of the matter is that womanizer and slut are both terms that effectively describe the same thing.
My attitude is that the more you generally strengthen an attitude regarding a principal (IE people that have many sexual partners), the more effectively you protect the vulnerable people that can specifically be harmed by a violation of that principal (IE women that have many sexual partners).
Yeah and my attitude is that words do not, in fact, exist independent of their context
I can’t disagree with that.
“womanizer” also comes with implications of objectification, reducing it to just number of sexual partners is I think a bit overly simplistic.
I think the better comparison is “player”, which has traditionally come with more positive connotations than “slut”.
It’s funny, when I think about “player”, I immediately associate that term with “cheater” and “liar”. Like, if you catch them they’ll say “Don’t hate the player, hate the game”.
Men don’t get harassed, assaulted, stalked, and lots things I can’t say here for the sake of people’s mental health for sleeping around. Oh, unless it’s with other men of course. Womanizers are “sly”, sluts are regarded as subhuman.
The thing is, even when you’re right, sitting someone down and explaining why their romantic partner is a piece of shit does not work to get people out of bad relationships. If anything, it tends to driver them harder into the arms of their POS of choice.
At the very least, Sarah’s expecting him to be a douche eventually and break Joyce’s heart, and *then* Sarah will do the murdering. We have no evidence that she’s going to do things in the wrong order yet!
Aren’t you a year older then him Sarah I don’t think people should be able to call others kid if there’s is less then a five year age difference.
I don’t maybe its in a “Billy the Kid” kind of way. Maybe she means to kill him “Pistols at Dawn” Spaghetti Western Style, with all the cast either quickly closing or peeking out of their dorm rooms as the pair square up in the hall. A single tumble weed of hair from under a bed drifting by, as the clock on the wall ticks up to High Noon. I mean if you are going to jail for murder – might as well go down in style.
Or maybe they could use rapiers. “Hello, my name is Sarah Clinton, you kissed my roommate prepare to die!”
Two years, I think. Sarah is 20 and most of the freshmen would be 17 or 18.
*thinks* So the Baby-Sitter Club books lead me to believe people USians typically finish middle school and thus start high school at 14 – so after 3 years of high school they’ll be approximately 17… so if no gap year they would be starting college at 17!! I guess that does help to explain just how overbearing some of the parents can be..? Their minors are living away from home!
(TIL! I had assumed the last HS year was when they’re 17-18 so they start college a solid 18. And the babies would be people like me who turn 19 in July/August
US high schools are almost always 4 years. 18 is the archetypical HS grad/university Freshman age. I was on the young end, graduating at 17.
To be fair I called everyone “kids” until I graduated college. I didn’t feel like an adult until then.
I don’t think I can really pinpoint any single moment when I started feeling like an adult. I guess it was sort of a gradual transition during the few years between when I finished undergrad and when I started teaching.
I’m 74 and never once thought of myself as an actual adult. Sure, I could pretend well enough to pass, but I always knew the difference.
I don’t think you even have to be older, I’ve called people 10+ years older than me kid because they seemed very kid
Everyone younger than you is a “kid”. That’s just how it works.
best response to the infantilizing “I/ can help with that!” would be “Then why didn’t/aren’t you?”
Did Sarah even know Joyce had the boxes? I can’t remember.
Sarah did know about the bins. She offered to help, and Joyce declined.
“im sorry, sarah, are *you* going to kiss me???”
Many times?
“…No.😮💨”
“Got a better counteroffer?”
“Damn it. Fine, but keep it above the belt while I’m in the room.”
i’m sure she begrudgingly would’ve if joyce looked super busy/messy and joining in after becky helping out or so but yeah i imagine she wouldn’t have rly prioritized it (tho sorting through papers like this is prolly more pleasant than talking to joyces moom)
I like how she’s almost going out of her way to not explain the full context here in a way that almost makes it sound like some payment he worked out with her, despite the two never having kissed yet.
In any case, Joyce is being defiant, and understandably so. She’s gone through the song and dance with Dorothy about her stifling Joyce, and now it’s Sarah’s turn. I guess we’ll see if she handles it with the grace Dorothy (eventually) did.
I’m hoping that this will turn just heated enough for them to both abandon defensive stances and actually address their issues. “What?” “What?” And then cool down and maybe even try to understand each other.
Yeah, Joyce is mad and definitely phrasing to annoy Sarah, but doing in a way that will confirm Sarah’s worst suspicions about Joe.
Sarah needs to “tend her own garden” and butt out.
Sarah really seems to have become more unlikeable since the timeskip
well, joe/joyce was fun while it lasted
wrap it up, guys, we are done here
“you know what? i’m going to date him even harder”
What’s Sarah going to do when Joyce takes the boxes to Joe’s room to sort them? Drag Joyce out and lock her in their room?
Tell Joe to stay the fuck out of her room, and that when he hurts Joyce, she’ll make his life hell.
Unfortunately, seems more likely to be the downfall of Sarah from Joyce’s friendsgroup, and probably from the strip.
taking that point out that i put into hammerspace during the fight with Lucy about ‘going too far’ for these next pages- annnnd Continue.
Yeah, Lucy’s gonna show up at the absolute worst part of this pending argument, and/or Joyce is gonna foot-in-mouth it real hard.
I feel like someone, at some point, would have been told she’s been befriending the dude for months, but I doubt Dorothy would ever be that person, Sarah’s been extra spicy… it’s probably either Bevky or someone who fundamentally doesn’t care.
She’s picking these fights to make a point, I think. That growth and late teenage rebellion is a whole Thing right now.
Sarah gfy and I mean that with love
Dumbing of Age, Book 15: I Will Kiss Him Many Times
Dumbing of Age. Book 15: I Always Knew I’d End Up in Prison for Murdering That Kid.
Man, Sarah really is a bongo sometimes, huh?
to answer the alt text, yes. thankfully i only got a one week suspension from school…
Story time?
Wow Joyce did not hold back.
Sarah should table that murder for after she earns her law degree. That way she can represent herself and avoid incurring legal fees on top of whatever student loan debt she’ll have, in case any further scholarships are less than well-funded.
and if she loses the lawsuit, she will be able to sue the university for teaching her badly. Win-win
A lawyer who represents herself in court has a fool for a client.
Yes, it’s a trite saying, but it’s still true.
2500 years ago, the Oracle of Delphi was very confused.
“I see…a girl who wears the barbaric pants of the northmen, facing down a warlike amazon most fierce to defend the honour of her beau, a young man with a chin like Agammemnon. I foresee…that womens clothes STILL won’t have pockets.”
“Aw dangit.”
That’s not what she said at all. “Beau” was way too clean a term for the Pythia, you see. She was honestly kind of a potty mouth, so a lot of her visions had to be tidied a little before they could be written down.
Yes, Willis, I have. Sadly, he murdered his girlfriend and is serving life in Florida. How he escaped the death penalty, I’ll never understand.
I have as well. Fortunately I was wrong.
And at this point no-one can prove a thing.
Oh. And way back there was this girl who was 17. I was wrong about that as well.
I love you Sarah but N O
Is Sarah a monster? Yes!
Mothering
Overprotective
Nurturing
Suspicious
Terrific
Endearing
Ready to fight
^_^
Ill joyfully back you up on almost all of that but where’d you get NURTURING
>.> I got it from the “I need a nice word starting with N and it’s not completely out of left field” bucket
Close enough, I’ll go with Notafraidtouseabat
I like that all of the Dorothy/Roz/etc mothering has now put Joyce into a position where she looks at her big sis directly in the eyes and says “I am dating him and I know you’re not going to approve and I *dare* you to challenge me on this.” She’s growing up!
I hope so, because right now what she’s said is “I bribed him with sex to help me”, which is not going to give Sarah the right impression.
Sarah knows Joyce has no interest in being bribed by sex, she can barely even talk about masturbation without freezing up and screaming that it’s all lies; I think this is just Joyce’s way of ripping off the bandaid so Sarah doesn’t think she’s getting tricked into it. Joe would absolutely harbor some kind of ulterior motive and she’s saying “yes, we’re both aware of it”
Joyce would be bribing with sex here, not being bribed. And she says kisses, but Sarah thinks she knows where Joe would go with that.
And yes, you’re right about what Joyce is saying, but it’s not the impression Sarah would get from it.
I mean, Sarah can interpret Joyce’s words that way, sure. But that is NOT what she said.
I’ve played Hearthstone enough to know Sarah have a special card on her sleeves, able to fuck this entire game. And this card is called Liz.
yup. Like a random item in your game inventory that you realize is can be used in a very certain circumstance to blow everything up.
Then Joyce flips the table and walks out.
I mean… is it a “card”?? I get that you’re joking but Sarah got really worried about her sister, (whether rightly or wrongly doesn’t affect my point,) and she saw Joyce get really excited about breaking some rules and behave a lot like Liz all of a sudden.
It’s fine, it’s a story and so on but it’s weird to me that we are so unanimously empathetic to Joyce and Joe here, and few of us seem to have much understanding or patience or actually? admiration for Sarah.
Like, i know from Joyce’s perspective she’s a busybody but she’s really trying to do the right thing. She’s not perfect but she cares and worries. How many of us really *do* something when we suspect that a friend is in danger of intimate violence/abuse? That’s what this is about, for Sarah.
Joe tried to sleep with Liz less than a week before declaring his feelings to Joyce. Sarah doesn’t know quite that much, but she does know that Joe talked about wanting to fuck Liz, and Liz suggesting there was something between them.
Which part is this an answer to, I’m confused
I don’t the the figurative card up the sleeve is about Joyce being like Liz. I think it’s about Joe and Liz, and Joyce may be sensitive about the timing.
^ I don’t think the…
Right right. But precisely Sarah is concerned about both Liz and Joyce. She sees them as easily fooled by a charming piece of shit like Joe. It turns out she’s wrong about Joe because the plot said so, but she has good reason to worry.
Now, Sarah gonna Sarah. She might not bring this up in the most delicate manner. But that won’t mean it doesn’t come from a place of genuine concern
Actually, I’m not so emphatic with them, and I understand about Sarah.
(Tbh, as big brother, sometimes I feel the urge to protect, too).
The card thing is a potential information Sarah can use against the couple.
I’m just imagining Joe just hanging out in the corner, enjoying that imagery but also being terrified
Brannigan and Fry, sentenced to death by snu-snu.
Oh that’s a very poor choice of words from Joyce, making it look to Sarah like it’s a transaction and Joe is being a creeper.
Yeah, Sarah is missing a LOT of context here.
Agreed. I can see why Joyce used the words, particularly after experiencing Dorothy’s take, but Sarah really doesn’t have the context to hear them the way Joyce is saying them.
Not that it’s okay that Sarah has already forcibly ejected a guest Joyce has been clear about welcoming in this instance.
I don’t think it’s Joyce who’s making Sarah think it’s a transaction given that it was Sarah who asked what Joe was expecting in return. I think Sarah thought that all on her own.
Oh that’s the point, Joyce didn’t intend it this way but the way she worded it will validate Sarah’s suspicion.
But it is Joyce who responded in a way that sounds like, “this is what he is expecting in return,” even though that is not really true.
I strongly feel that Joyce *intentionally* chose to express herself in this fashion; her making it seem transactional isn’t accidental. She’s looking very defiant/ ‘I’m a big kid now!’ here, and implying that she’s exchanging favors for sexual ones sounds (from an immature viewpoint) very grown up…
It’s Sarah’s choice to interpret her words that way and, frankly, it’s Joyce’s choice if she wants to follow through. She can give Joe as many kisses as she wants in return for his services and Sarah truly has no say in the matter.
BUT MOM, I LOVE HIM!
…sigh.
You’re gonna have to let it go, Esla.
Not before she bludgeons someone with a comically large icicle
Sarah? In addition to all the other comments from the peanut gallery, you might also want to consider that trying to hurt people that Joyce cares about TENDS TO GO BADLY for whoever makes the attempt.
Oh Sarah catching Joyce’s One Punch would be a sight to behold.
Why would Sarah even begin to consider that? Who’s going to get hurt here that she knows Joyce cares about?
Joe.
Sarah knows that Joyce cares about Joe?
When did that come up?
Obviously Joyce does, but I don’t think Sarah knows about it. She’s certainly not acting like she does.
Joyce is talking about kissing him lots of times, so it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.
I’m afraid this could be the beginning of the end of Joyce and Sarah’s friendship.
“Do you know what he wants from you”
“Yeah and i’m into it”
“I hope it’s face-sitting.”
Sarah’s big sister attitude is showing. Big suspicious sister. Big sus.
Kissing someone many times without a determinate amount usually leads to a slobbery face after
Big sus sis.
I think Sarah’s just working with incomplete information here, and while I don’t think she’s gonna be happy about it, I think she’ll back off if Joyce elaborates on the situation.
I’m guessing she’ll be a bit better than Dorothy was at first, but that Becky will be much more positive
Being how Dina feels about Joe I’d imagine it’d be very positive
I too expect Becky to be more positive, if only because Joe meets her basic criteria for acceptability as a Joyce-partner: he thinks Joyce and Joyce’s pants are gosh-danged glorious.
* just to clarify, AFTER it is clear that Joyce decided to date him and is comfortable etc. she’s maybe being worse now, but all she knows so far is ‘Joe was in our room’ and ‘Joe might be kissing Joyce’
Nope. She’s an absolute monster that just hates Joe unreasonably and wants to control Joyce. No other possible explanation.
Just like Dorothy. Nothing will change her mind.
I thought we’d decided Dorothy was a rapist. I guess that falls under the “absolute monster” umbrella, though.
I’ve been appreciating how both Joyce and Joe have been earning this relationship by going through the skeptical friend crucible, person by person. Joe has to take on the chin all these moments of Joyce’s friends trying to fiercely protect her, and Joyce has to grit her teeth and repeatedly declare her autonomy.
Next Dumbing of Age book title: I Will Kiss Him Many Times.
I was on her side when she told off Lucy for being a judgmental brat with horribly naive ideas about dating, but right now Sarah needs to fuck right off.
yeah. Everybody needs to ASK JOYCE what she wants, instead of patronizing her. They are well-meaning, and i get it, it’s *JOE*, and also with her trauma with roofie guy, i get it that they are protective, but they also gotta let her make her own choices….
I do think that it’s fair if friends point out their concerns when i’m dating someone they think is not good for me, but in the end, it needs to be up to me. I might realize a while later that they were right about the person, but sometimes i gotta learn my own lessons. Only when there’s serious abuse happening, people need to step up and do an intervention. If i’d still not listen, then i can only hope the friends will still be around by the time i ask for help to get out.
Sometimes it’s really hard to see your friends make dumb decisions…….
That’s it, really. I think so far Dorothy and Sarah have gone “The FUCK you are dating Joe.” Dorothy tried a little to get to actually talking about the matter, but was derailed by Joyce’s neuroses. So far Sarah’s been pretty closed on the matter, which, uh, she can’t do because it’s Joyce’s consent to give.
Dorothy was concerned about it and definitely went too far, but she’s accepted it after running into them when Joyce was in the tree.
I don’t think Sarah knows anything about them dating
Sarah, you have got to attend the cast update meetings more often…
Sarah is having problems with change. Everyone declare her autistic.
As this comment section’s most volatile autist, I officially diagnose Sarah with Violent Grump Disorder. There’s a small amount of overlap/comorbidity, but they’re not actually the same thing once you get past the superficial similarities.
: D I get it you might cure violent or grump, if someone wants to be cured. but just like there’s no cure for awesome there’s no cure for autism.
Why did you say that last part twice
“And bite his tushie.”
I’ll say it if no one will: i fully support and endorse being suspicious of straight cis men as a baseline attitude. We live in a society etc
are you sure you’re not infantalizing everyone who is attracted to a straight cis man?
That’s silly.
Several things can be true at once. Straight cis men suck AND Sarah is being patronizing. I don’t see a contradiction here
I’m suspicious of everyone, until they prove to be trustworthy
Yep, Sarah’s big sister mode has activated. Even if she does know about some of Joe’s development (and I’m not sure she does), that bit might be fine for other people, but it is in no way sufficient for her little sister.
Well, I’m sure this will absolutely turn out well and not lead to any type of animosity between friends.
The only one with a problem here is Sarah, so any animosity is gonna be her own fault.
You’re not wrong. Her refusal to believe people can change, while also being witness to those close to her changing, is a bit too realistic, sadly.
Sarah has some serious issues. Joyce is an adult, treat her like one.
That’s been one of the big issues around Joyce. A *lot* of people have a tendency to treat her as a child who doesn’t know what’s best for her. Now initially, she was VERY sheltered and naive and probably did need people to sort of guide her, but she doesn’t now and they haven’t all switched to seeing her as her own person.
Wonder if that’s the point, about similar how Dor3otjy, Sarah and Carol (Becky to a lesser degree) are in regards to controlling Joyce
“It’s for your own good”
It’s weird how everyone has a double standard for how Dorothy and Sarah reacted, except for me. For me, I see the nuances that everyone else is missing, unless they agree with me.
Truly your wisdom knows no bounds!
I only know that I know nothing, except what’s correct.
sarah gonna need a knee brace with how hard she’s been overstepping lately
if people want to hate Joe based on how his character started out, that’s perfectly fine because first impressions tend to stick. but like we can’t deny the dude is undergoing a serious arc and is actually a really good example of how people with shitty attitudes can change. I actually do know some cis men who look back on their hs/early college selves with a healthy amount of cringe because they shared similar attitudes to early Joe.
people hate it when an A-hole becomes a better person.
They want someone to hate, and they want to keep hating that person no matter what.
It’s pretty much people taking “redemption is a story” and believing it wholeheartedly. Definitely one of the worse vices in this comment section.
God, Tall Rachel is the worst.
Is anyone actually hating on Joe here? I mean people in the comments who’ve seen his character arc.
Or are they/we pointing out that it’s not unreasonable for Sarah to not accept his character development on faith when she hasn’t really seen any of it?
I’ve seen far more hating on Sarah today than Joe.
Joe had a rough start, but he found a good woman and wants to be better for her.
That sounds like a good character arc to me.
all the thots on earth can’t compare to the girl that captured your heart, instead of your D.
Yeah, this comment I think is meant to be pointing at Sarah not believing Joe can change, and perhaps even struggling to see Joyce’s growth as well.
On the other hand, I agree with you that it’s reasonable that Sarah wouldn’t believe Joe has changed too much. Wasn’t it like a week ago in comic time that he was picking up her sister and nearly spending the night with her? I can’t remember if she knew about that at all, but it certainly would put a wrench in the works for convincing her that he’s reformed. And yes, the comments section tends to love hating in Sarah, because she is a prickly and difficult person. But frankly, Sarah does not need to change Sarah, Sarah has Been Through It and will continue to Go Through It at least until college is done, what she needs is someone who still loves her despite being prickly in a way that lets her finally start trusting and healing, and from there hopefully she will become less prickly just by dint of needing to defend herself and her loved ones less.
Errrh… I just don’t bought his redemption arc. Or maybe it still will came one day.
And there’s other reasons I don’t like him so much.
But someone had commented week ago, that Joyce knows that Joe is like this. That her date is like a rebels action, to get ride of her old religious past.
I respect that, and personally I’m trying to inspire on her.
Sarah, you are *barely* older than him.
Joyce. Joyce, no. Joyce, why? This is not conveying what you want to convey!
Sidenote, he is not even expecting that in return! Up to this point, Joyce put kisses off-limits because she is afraid she lacks the self-control to stop at face-kisses, and Joe is respecting that boundary.
(This exchange seems entirely in-character for Joyce, and I’m enjoying watching this trainwreck. Don’t @ me.)
I hope Joyce quickly clarifies that these are not conditions that Joe set, and that he doesn’t even have any conditions; the kisses are just Joyce’s idea of a good reward.
In case anyone is, like me, freaking out at work, here’s some soothing rhythm for the hacked office laptop speakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_1MixAhWs
…Had a bad PTSD trigger at work yesterday. Trying to figure out how to report it properly and make the higher-ups take it seriously.