A few years ago I found myself headbanging along to some NIN and thinking “Man, Trent was really on the mark with these lyrics,” and then I realized I had become a pizza cutter.
As a lifelong Atheist, I believe that a church is the people, not the building. Just like how your home should be your family, not the bricks and mortar (or whatever) house. 🙂
Anyone who thinks the building is The Church as much as or more than the people? They have ‘lost the plot’, as it were.
Buildings are replaceable. Nice to have, but not necessary. You can conduct service in a parishioner’s home, in a public building with reservable rooms/times, or outdoors.
Yeah even if I was religious I can’t imagine going to church. Just seems like a pain in the ass and if I wanna pray I dunno why I’d have to go to a place to do it. I know how to read.
There’s a difference between praying in public just so other people can see you, gathering somewhere private to pray in the company of a few fellow believers, and gathering with many nominal believers to lose yourself in a group experience. Personally, I’m in the camp of “God gave me this day off, I’m not getting up early to put on pants and deal with other people” but I understand why some people are.
Never really understood concerts, either. You just get a worse performance with worse audio and a worse atmosphere, and you pay a premium for the privilege.
“worse atmosphere” Well here’s the reason you don’t understand it. People that enjoy concerts will tell you the atmosphere is so much better than sitting at home
Depends on the hardware you have at home.
Not dunking on people who like the concert experience, but we can get tooth-busting decibels at home now, and you don’t need to deal with sweaty, filthy, fart monsters like me jumping around in front of you.
That, and some bands only seem to put on their best performance when they have an audience to react to. For instance, I was never more than a casual fan of Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, but those guys absolutely killed it live. Webb Wilder is also great live, and half the fun is listening to Webb going off on one of his cheerfully deranged rants. Some bands aren’t all that great live, but some bring an energy and intensity to live shows that even their best studio work just can’t match.
Some people like to feel the music in their bones as opposed to hearing full fidelity through their headphones. I do the same sometimes with my speaker setup at home, usually when my wife isn’t around to get annoyed with my video game metal playlist.
Some outdoor concerts can have very good sound. I saw (and heard) the Allman brothers at some venue in western Massachusetts. I don’t know if this is typical.
Here are my personal reasons as an agnostic congregationalist. Who comes from a fairly liberal and queer accepting church.
1. Potluck
2. Coffee Hour after church
3. Getting to meet up with my old friends and talk.
4. It’s fun singing familiar songs with people.
5. Helping out with a soup kitchen makes me feel good, but is a lot easier with a group of friends to help tone done the social anxiety.
As a fellow agnostic those all seem like great reasons for attending a warm accepting place where friends also attend and that doesn’t shame, condemn, belittle, deny or otherwise reduce people based on who they fundamentally happen to be.
I think Joyce thought her church offered her and Becky all of those things (because true Christians of the exact right flavour) until they went back after the first kidnapping attempt. Realising that was not the case really hurt her and her mother never saw or acknowledged that. Hank did…
And that was the first time I think Joyce questioned out loud to somebody who she trusted to maybe know the answer whether or not her mother could be considered a monster.
But I think she also saw clearly for the first time the hypocrisy — that the God preached from the pulpit and in Sunday school, and the one the members claimed as the authority for their actions, were two very different people.
I wonder whether she might someday discover that she still believes in the former. She was a truer Christian than those around her, and still is.
Well, apart from systemic hypocrisy. Today’s church is quite not what St Paul’s church was, and St Paul’s church never has been anywhere close to what Christ’s synagogue had been.
But yes, other than that hypocrisy had not been the problem and Joyce had little choice other than throwing out the muck water along with the swamp eels.
Praying can be done anywhere, and this is encouraged at several points in the Bible. Believers meet regularly to keep their belief aligned, so somebody doesn’t get funny ideas and run off the rails. Obviously it doesn’t always work, and now and then an entire congregation runs off the rails together. (See an example right here in DoA.) But it seems to work almost all the time.
Entire denominations and organizations run off the rails regularly. We’ve had wars between different Christian sects over doctrine.
Joyce’s church is part of a large Christian movement, not a single congregation that’s gone astray.
It doesn’t work anywhere near all the time.
This is, oddly, an extremely Christian perspective. The idea that the whole of the religion is in this one book? Hell, it’s specifically a Protestant bit of bullshit.
No other religion, pre-Martin Luther, does that. Religion is social identity, first and foremost, not a textbook you read.
My wife’s church used to have a carved wooden sign that said “Meetingplace of the Mennonite Church” and I thought that was a rather elegant bit of ecclesiology in such a compact form.
Some years ago they got rid of that sign because a bunch of marketing students told them to get an electronic sign at great expense. Which is now broken. The company says replacement parts are not available so they asked me if I could repair it. (Answer = ‘yes, probably’)
Even though I am an atheist I miss the old wooden sign. I don’t believe in god but I do believe in communities.
Much like the building, the value of the sign is not in itself but in what it represents. I haven’t seen it, but you’ve given us the important part, and I like that sign already.
They’re a good congregation. Nary a bible thumper in the bunch, and they put a lot of resources into disaster relief; building houses, clearing roads, etc. Long history of sponsoring refugees. Modified their building to host a Head Start location. Recently they went through a difficult transformation to become GLBTQ+ friendly. Lost a few members, gained more. And they’ve never given me any grief over being an atheist.
Getting Linda levels of “I’m your mother and can will my reality over your actual literal life at a moment’s notice” from Carol here. Just need a weaponized “I love you,” and it’ll be complete.
She’s also clearly decided “I would kill you and your friends for the church” so her professing “I would die for you” seems like something she just says because it makes her feel righteous.
I believe she does love Joyce. It’s a conditional love, that cares more deeply about the state of Joyce’s soul (to Carol’s specific beliefs about what’s best for said soul) than her wellbeing on this earth, and it’s the kind of love that would therefore allow her to justify kidnapping Joyce at gunpoint in the name of saving her from herself, but it is a form of (incredibly fucked-up and unhealthy for Joyce) love. That’s the realization Joyce had when she heard that.
Having a parent who weaponizes “I would die for you” myself, the thing you need to understand is that it’s not sincere. All it is, is a guilt trip.
Think like how macho bluster works: the one who most dramatically declares their machismo is usually the most insecure about it and phony. Same thing here. People who actually love someone enough to die for them don’t feel the need to go on about it like that. Or use it as a weapon in an argument.
I would did for you is such a Bon Jovi level of 80s bullshittery. Great, now you’re dead and what exactly did that achieve? How about you drop the dramatics and live well for the people you profess to love? Bring in the mail, wrap them in a blanket when they’re cold, make a drink just because, take care of some of the little niggles in their life that make living harder for them and, if you’re a parent, raise your child to be prepared to live and thrive in this world. This is what I want from the world, even if it does make for less catchy songs.
“I would die for you” and “I would kill you for the church” aren’t mutually exclusive though.
She may be a fanatic but if Joyce’s life was in danger for something not church related, she actually could put her life on the line to save her daughter.
Having fucked up religious beliefs doesn’t preclude people from also having a *few* not-horrible qualities.
Eh, she’s in this arc too, give her time to remind us she can compete. At some point she’s going to start pressuring Walky to start prepping for med school and we already know she’s a financial abuser. There’s PLENTY of room for that to get coercive and awful.
(That said, I do agree in that I don’t see Linda as likely to threaten Walky’s life ACTIVELY in quite the same way I worry about Carol “talked about how they should get a gun the WEEKEND AFTER Kidnapping 1” Brown with Joyce and Jocelyne. But I still give it a fairly low odds overall.)
Linda was left speechless the last time she saw Carol. Ironically, it was when she saw Carol use optics (of all things) as a cudgel in an argument with Hank.
Exactly. When it comes right down to it, fundamentalists of all stripes are entirely self-centered. It’s all about self-preservation. They believe in an all-powerful being that is threatening them, and they’ll do anything to save themselves, up to and including disposing of everyone they ever cared about and every principle they ever held. And this being is ok with that attitude because He is evil.
And because this being is capable of mind-reading, they’re desperate to not let themselves even consider that this being isn’t good, since He might take offense to that and start abusing them too. It’s an extraordinarily desperate and fucked up situation they’re in, and one of the reasons it’s so hard to rescue them. They have to give themselves permission to actually evaluate their deity, and that is the one thing above all they’re not allowed to do – heck they even made faith into a virtue, which it is not. God hates critics.
One thing I will disagree with: redeeming your promises is a virtue. That’s what “faith” actually means. Overloading it to mean “mindless acceptance” is one of the great social crimes of all time and is a gateway to other crimes. This latter meaning is actually deprecated in the Bible: “test the spirits that come to you.”
1 John 4:1: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” I like that one better than Matthew 4:7: “Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'” (also backed up by Deuteronomy 6:16).
So… we’re to test every spirit but God, but we’ve got to test the spirit to know if they’re God. Well, fortunately, 1 John 4:2 gives an easy way to check: “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”… except that there are many religion abusers who preach the “mindless acceptance” definition of “faith” yet would easily pass that test.
The world would be a better place if your version of Christianity were the only one, Mark, but unfortunately it isn’t.
Believe in god all you want selling your house is just a dumb move. Who else in the congregation is coming out of pocket like this? Looking at you youth pastor Powers.
other than just going to church out of habit or being set in your ways, how do ppl get that old without ever questioning it, tho luckily i didn’t grow up in a religious household with beliefs forced on me
Google says a 2016 Mustang (ballparking that year) MSRPs around $25k USD. For their precious missionary, I could see a church of sufficient size breaking 30 for a GT.
I love the juxtaposition of Joyce’s raised eyebrow and shaky voice. Indicating that whatever Carol says next will be the final straw…. and yet, she knows what the outcome will be.
For me it’s how “calm” Carol is being. The lack of changes of expression. Not just this comic either, but throughout her latest appearance. She’s been eerily calm, considering last time she was here Ruth had to suplex her to get her under control. The woman is a fucking monster, and yet she’s a monster who has seen her bedrock crumble around her and had to choose between the thing that had always been a constant but was now revealed as a haven of actual evil or her own kid. She chose the former, and can’t seem to believe it herself. This woman is not going to stay this calm for long, and it’s going to be bad when it changes.
Despair can be a very calm, comfortable, and even reassuring place. People like Carol can watch their entire world burn down around them without batting an eyelash, while confidently stating that this one tiny island of supposed stability was all they REALLY cared about anyway. And besides, they still have plenty of memories of how the world used to be, which is really just as good as the real thing if you think about it, especially since the world is obviously going to return to that state, aaaannnny minute now.
You think freshly divorced Carol has a good enough relationship with Hank to talk about this with him? I feel like conversations like these are why they got divorced to begin with.
I assure you, in the 30+ years they were married*, Hank definitely tolerated a lot more of this shit than Joyce did in her mere 18 years of being alive. Hank just reached his endpoint at a slightly earlier date.
*: Probably more like 40+, but I don’t have a particular citation for the length of their marriage beyond that John is noted to be twice Joyce’s age, and there is no known reason to believe that he was born out of wedlock
I don’ t think Hank will cut her out of his life for this. He acknowledged she has a good moral compass. Believing or not believing in God doesn’t change that. He strikes me, on his best days, as the kind of Christian who cares more about if you’re walking the walk than if you’re walking it exactly the way he would.
I think he would also appreciate why the guy in the church he and his wife raised her in, who their church – with his wife’s support – bailed out of jail and supported over her and her best friend, kidnapping her and several friends and being involved in the murder of another friend (even if it was “member of friend group” rather than “close friend who she appreciated and cherished”) would lead to her questioning the existence of a divinity. And when that kidnapper and HER OWN MOTHER seemed to use them as a stand-in for “excuse to exert absolute control over her life, denying her agency, knowledge, healthcare (glasses, adequate treatment for her severe dysmenorrhoea, the possibility of an autism/Asperger’s diagnosis even coming up until college…) and making it absolutely clear that they consider Becky better off dead in this life than gay – coming up devoutly atheist is a really reasonable outcome, given the way Joyce had understood that she had to believe.
Becky’s belief, because it was “Jesus is good, he’s love, the rest is details” allows for flexibility. Therefore, He sent a superhero on a motorbike to save her from a kidnapper – how could they not be good? She can keep the positives because she’d probably never even learnt to parrot the other stuff word from word properly, let alone convincingly enough for Toedad’s liking. Sure, her upbringing has affected her – her “the good stuff’s covered up > Dina wears hats > Dina’s head is the hottest thing on the planet” kink for instance… But she can remain positive about religion and a Christian because it isn’t all one tangled knot that has fallen apart.
Joyce genuinely thought that she literally had to ferociously believe EVERYTHING she was told absolutely or she would be Damned. There was a lot of tension and turmoil hidden down deep behind the triangle smile as she MADE herself do that, even with the “contradictory bits” and has now pretty much flat out been told she was being brainwashed by an adult she respected (the argument with Toedad on the basement stairs…). But I think now when she looks back at those days the one thing that isn’t ashes in her mouth is Becky being light-hearted, irreverent, making her make The Face but also picking off the sausage from her pizza because that’s how she likes it. Accepting her and loving her and expanding her life.
There’s safety for us ’cause we’re just the reader. But, yeah, it’s super depressing and I’m glad Willis is working through it in what seems like a healthy way.
uuuuh, which part? Willis was never involved in a huge ridiculous kidnapping/murder incident and he didn’t come out to his parents as an atheist when he was Joyce’s age. In fact he has mentioned in the comments that he gets better (or got) along with his parents when they know the least about him, if I recall with the implication that he doesn’t bother correcting them when they still think he’s a faithful Christian.
This is going to end in tears, possibly from Carol or Joe, but definitely from Joyce.
Relatedly, telling someone you don’t believe in God, and then to have them say “you don’t mean it” is the height of bullshit. As if someone knows how you feel about something more than you do.
I think Carol is in denial – Joyce saying she doesn’t believe in god probably feels to Carol like she has lost her daughter. Said daughter should probably grab Joe and skedaddle before the next phase of grief kicks in though.
I’d say it’s not so much denial as it’s Carol is used to telling Joyce what Joyce thinks without pushback.
Carol probably has a hard time even conceiving that Joyce is an independent person, rather than an extension of herself.
Without wishing to sound too defensive of Carol, it’s possible she doesn’t see herself as an independent person. Considering the combination of fundie misogyny and whatever “I’m nothing without Jesus” nonsense that she’s likely been forced into believing, I doubt she sees autonomy as an option for herself or for Joyce.
I mean, Carol is in denial, but not in the grieving sense. In the sense of living her life in denial of several aspects of reality, including but not limited to the fact that Joyce is an autonomous person capable of meaningful independent thought.
And leave Carol alone inside Joyce’s room with all of her private things, potential access to her computer, meds, and the like?
I get the idea of diffusing the situation and closing it out, but at the very least if you’re going to do that make sure to get Ruth to keep an eye on Carol.
I think Carol is in denial too, but to be fair, parents belittle and ignore all kinds of stuff their children say with “you don’t believe that.” So it’s probably reflex kicking in here more than anything else.
People old enough to be grandparents tend to pull that kinda crap, it’s the seniority and feeling of being much wiser than some 20 or 30-something who hasn’t lived a quarter of their lifetime taking over and talking.
Not much you can do, they might come around to it eventually, especially if they see you thrive, but they might not live long enough to accept that you never were what they thought you were, and that you were merely pretending just to not upset ’em.
It’s neither a stereotype nor an attack, just something that all people can do as we get older. It’s an insightful comment and a warning about a destructive behaviour that we all get more at risk for over time. There’s real wisdom in it.
Also, considering the very real systemic agism that affects young people, especially minors (yes, minors are a marginalized group), recognizing that older people typically feel entitled to supremacy over younger people isn’t an agist statement
I think if he could, that burrito would be capable of forming a new universe from the sheer raw power required to beat omnipotence. They wrote a really powerful deity into their campaign, I gotta hand it to ’em.
i mean if ur supposed to be perf, things would get boring, maybe you’d do things that’d cause yourself pain within reason without going super mascohist lol
You’re in a cult Carol well technically all religions are a cult beacuse they venerate and devote themselves to a prominent figure but generally cults have negative connotations depending on who you ask the idea of religion has negative connotations.
With my Christian upbringing I was taught about things such as kindness, Caring, Humility, and Love for the people around me along with some other stuff. When I grew up though I noticed that there was a large scale of people who claimed to have similar beliefs as me but clearly lacked all the values I grew up with.
Carol feels like one of those people who never truly understood or just straight up never really believed in what she was preaching.
I remember very little from my religious childhood and the only things that really stuck with me are just “treat your neighbor well, treat people the way you wanna be treated” and “respect your elders”. Now you can argue that last one ain’t always worth practicing but for my money I’m at least always polite and cordial until you give me a reason not to be.
I remember “Respect your mother and father” but since a ton of people who like preaching the Bible aren’t good at it they often forget the second part of that verse which is “Don’t provoke your children to anger.”
My favorite Bible quote in High School was II Thessalonians 5:21—
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” Great line for skewering the faith-alone crowd.
I hate to sound like a Paul apologist, but this misrepresentation annoys me. Paul’s conflict with the disciples was over ritual purity/adherence to Torah Law, not about “do deeds, motherfucker”.
It’s easy to ignore when we read Paul today because we’re not even thinking in those terms
Paul was also a misogynist. Most of the terrible stuff people use from the Bible to justify all sorts of bigotry is from letters (or the Old Testament).
respect is a two way street tho parents never understand that lol. maybe by the time gen z are old enoguh to be grandkids things will get better for ppl growing up
Or one of those people that just uses the term since that is what she grew up as, but could care less about what the actual original source says since it doesn’t fit in with what she wants to believe (or was taught to believe by others). There’s a reason why they originally didn’t want the Bible translated into the native languages of the common people and kept in Latin (easier to tell people what to believe and what it’s interpretation says).
A basic rarely understood truth about Christianity is that it’s far more based on tradition than on the actual words in the Bible. Even in fundamentalist, literalist sects.
At least the Catholics are more honest about that and keep the church doctrine as a formal thing.
Indeed. The key to the success of Christianity (along with most other major recruitment-based religions such as Islam and Buddhsim) is malleability. Christianity went really quickly from being a suppressed mystical cult to being the state religion of Rome, for example.
To some extent, though the suppression wasn’t as extreme or consistent as it’s sometimes portrayed.
But mostly that there’s been debate and conflict about what the religion was from the very beginning. Not only do we have people been arguing about what the NT texts mean as far back as we have records, but the NT itself is a record of those conflicts going back to the days of Paul and of James and Peter. The Gospels tell different stories and teach different theologies. Every different movement or heresy or denomination comes with its own traditions and teachings about what it all means.
And this goes back to Judaism as well – though like the Catholics they do so more formally with the Talmud and Midrash
I was wondering the same thing. If Joyce’s mom is giving everything to the church, even their house, where is the money to keep Joyce at IU going to come from? Joyce is going to be in the same boat as Becky was when her parents yanked her out of Anderson.
We don’t know what assets Hank got as part of the deal that gave Carol the house and the car.
Also there might be an education fund that can’t be spent except for Joyce’s benefit. I know New York State has such things as a tax break because I had to manage the transfer as an executor.
I think so, but I am not absolutely sure. My dad set money aside in one of these plans for his grandchildren. For unknown reasons this money wasn’t spent on the college educations they got, so it just sat there, under my father’s nominal control but specifically allocated to them. When he passed away, I had to get them to set up educational accounts in their own names and then I transferred the money to them. I can’t say for certain that I couldn’t have sucked it back in the general estate, but I doubt it.
What has happened to them since then, I am not sure. If they decided to go back to school for an advanced degree they can use those funds. If not it just sits there tax deferred. I suspect they could eventually roll it over to their kids. Or they might be able to take it out for non-educational purposes, but with a tax penalty, as with taking out IRA money too early.
I recently looked into setting up such an account for my child. It varies based on where you live, but in my state, such funds can be used for educational purposes (e.g. private school, college, vocational/tech school, etc.), withdrawn with a tax penalty, or rolled over into a tax-exempt retirement account.
You know, being a former christian I do have to say I see a lot of my former self in this discussion. I am very glad that Joyce understands that a church is ultimately just a community like any other, and can be just as bad. I do hope she manages to stand her ground against Carol’s delusional views
i wonder if ppl have just not necessarily believed but went to church and just used the confessional booth as more of a therapy session though i suppose the guy on the other end can’t give you proper advice that’s not also a religious thing like “say three hail marys” or so
Carol had one chance to salvage the situation and she blew it in the first panel
Proud of Joyce for sticking to her guns and proud of Joe for being fast to switch from “prefect gentleman” mode to “Imma help you burn this bridge” mode
I dunno if I can be *proud* of Joe for this when he’s the one who instigated the mode switch to begin with against Joyce’s implied wishes. I don’t think he did anything wrong but it’s not necessarily a big character moment or anything.
I get the mindset but still wanted to highlight how her own logic is contradictory. She’s arguing that she has to foot the bill for the building because it’s integral to the well being of the church as a whole which is more important then herself (also a member) and her daughters financial and emotional well being but by that logic the church should not have risked itself in the first place for a single member. I doubt Carol will ever admit it was more about supporting homophobic Christian “ideals” by freeing Ross then standing by their church members.
The hypocrisy and doublethink are load-bearing parts of this mindset. It keeps the followers in line by making them feel, not letting them think from a broad perspective.
The “enemy” is both feeble and an existential threat. Those people are bad, unlike you. We have always been at war with Eastasia.
You know that Carol absolutely tells people she is “Pro-Life” but doesn’t even skip a beat to explain to her daughter that the life of her friend was worth less than the Church that facilitated his murder.
I was honestly expecting it to take a lot longer to tear off this bandaid, and for it to be a lot more devastating. But there’s an almost worse horror, not being told “how dare you” but rather “I know you don’t mean that.” Outrage would at least validate that earth-shattering experience she went through, as hard as it would be. Complete dismissal of it has to sting a lot worse.
So was Joyce. The biggest deal was in her head. Nobody reacted as dramatically to Joyce’s atheism as she herself did. Becky was more mad that she made fun of her than that she was an atheist, nobody else gave a hoot at all, and for Carol, the religion aspect was an ideological justification for the existence of her Mafia-like criminal organisation, but not primary to it.
Here’s hoping they go to Galasso’s, where the Walkertons happen to be! Maybe Becky is on shift and has to keep sneaking past them. Hijinks! They must ensue!
It took me like six years and hundreds of conversations with twitter fascists before I accepted there’s a type of person who it’s pointless to talk to; who just don’t accept new information. Humans switched to read-only mode and with the switch burned off.
So that’s probably going to take a while for Joyce, especially when it’s her mom.
Hiding that in a footnote is ACTUALLY a sign that, deep down, subconsciously, you DO love it. What you really need right now is a wise, benevolent, person such as myself to point it out for you and put you on the right path!
Boo, I wanted the “Joyce is an atheist now” thread to come later because I’m insanely curious as to how Carol would explain away Ross being involved in murder and kidnapping and now we’ll never know because the focus of this conversation will be Joyce’s new non belief
It doesn’t seem that hard to explain. Ross was a good man (because devout believer) trying to do a good thing (saving his daughter’s soul). Anything else is irrelevant, really.
The kidnapping might’ve been unfortunate, but an acceptable sacrifice to do the right thing. Saving someone’s soul is worth any price. As for the murder, she already tried to defend Ross with the argument that he didn’t kill anyone. Presumably she would’ve still defended him on principle (after all, he is/was a good man doing a good thing) even if he had been actively involved in killing.
Interesting how “the church is more important than anything and anyone” translates to “You should accept sacrificing your childhood home and the life of your schoolmate to the church” but it does NOT translate to “The church shouldn’t sacrifice itself in order to protect the individual member that shot up a school.” So, toedad was included in the entity called “the church” that she’s protecting above all else but Joyce, and Joyce’s friends are not.
Yep that’s the unspoken rule your only a real member if you embody their ideals and are useful to the churches agenda in some way. Bailing Ross out gave the church members the ability to go after Becky and what she stood for in their eyes while hiding behind the veil of charity and community.
Nothing odd about that though? The church stands by its own. The members help the church, the church helps its members.
Toedad was a member of the church (and thus worth helping), Joyce’s friends were not. And a good person like Joyce should be able to see why they should side with Toedad (member of church) over their friends (not members of their church). And why sacrificing their house to save the church is the right thing to do.
Side note; I don’t think the church was planning on sacrificing itself completely. They just got pushed over the edge when things escalated.
Carol and her family were also considered members of the church but it has no problem exploiting her being a divorced senior with limited job prospects. Not to mention becky was also a member of the church. Point being the church doesn’t so much help its members as it helped pit family members against each other for its own benefit. Members are expected to sacrifice for the church ideals but this church will not sacrifice for its members, its just find another member to foot the bill for its previous “generosity”.
No way, a big dramatic moment like that would be saved for a Friday. I expect a few days of Carla hijinks and someone ranting about transformers movies.
She’s probably still months, if not years, away from going full no-contact with her mom. Fully cutting a family member out of your life is incredibly hard, and most people take a long time to work up to it.
Well, mine was microaggressions and one day with an outright metaphorical smack down I just packed what I could and left. It really can be the no more Thang, even if it looks like Tuesday to everyone else.
Hasbro, makers of the transformers. It all started when you couldn’t tell if it was a robot or a car with the endgame of making us unable to tell man from woman!
I don’t know who said it, but something like “When the bishop says God is real, that’s all in the way of business. But if he says god is not real, you’d better listen.”
I’ve forgotten what Joyce’s chosen major is, but what could only help her later in her college career would be to take an elective course on comparative religions through history.
Here’s where she would find out how Big Daddy, Junior and The Spook rose to the top after Zeus, Odin and the rest of the gang packed it in and left.
See you this weekend at the Humanist meeting, Joyce.
Elementary education. IIRC going in the plan was to get qualified to homeschool her future kids. That has likely changed, but she hadn’t changed it as of the lunch with Dorothy, Jacob, and Raidah. She could still be a schoolteacher if she sticks with it.
I’m not sure if this is a sunk cost fallacy, extreme indotrination, or just plain stupidity. This church cost her friends, her marriage, her home, and even some of her children, but she still thinks it is literally the most important thing to her
Having met people like her when I was in the church, they spend their life in the church building up a worldview that make THEM (or at least their congregation) the most righteous person(s) they know. Most of them fight any challenge to their worldview once established because otherwise they’ll have to acknowledge they were both wrong, and treated people horribly because of those misconceptions.
As a side-note, I do think Joyce telling her mom she’s atheist in this moment is a bad play, as it’s going to shut down any chance of Carol actually hearing her. She could/should have expanded on Joe’s point, presenting all of the church and Carol’s actions from an outside perspective (“They freed a man who SHOT at a SCHOOL so he could work with a MOBSTER to KILL SOMEONE and then KIDNAP MORE PEOPLE to either HURT or KILL THEM TOO in order to ABDUCT his ESTRANGED ADULT DAUGHTER!”), unless Willis is trying to communicate that “You don’t mean that” is the tell that the window for reaching her has already closed.
I am reminded of how after Avengers: Infinity War came out, many people thought it was a plot hole that Thanos didn’t change his plan to use the Infinity Stones to increase resources, or any of the many alternatives they presented that did not involve murdering half the universe.
Their mistake was thinking that Thanos wanted to save the universe. His words and actions in the film made it pretty clear that he never cared about saving anyone, he cared about proving that he was RIGHT, that his culling plan would have saved Titan if the people had just LISTENED to him.
So he went out to enact his plan on everybody else. And when learning about the Infinity Stones, the only option he could, psychologically, take was to scale up his original plan. If he even considered ANYTHING else it would mean acknowledging that his plan would never have saved Titan. It would mean that he wasn’t a misunderstood savior who made the tough decisions, but a monster who had murdered billions for NOTHING.
You know, I never considered that, you got a good point. All this time I knew he was stubborn about his plan, but I thought he was trying to make sure what happened this his planet didn’t happen to anyone else.
Oh damn, Joyce. I deconverted years ago, and I STILL haven’t told my parents I don’t believe anymore. (I think my dad’s figured it out, but we haven’t had the conversation about it.) I really hope she isn’t putting herself in danger by telling Carol this–I know it’s tempting to be “out” and authentic, whether it’s about atheism or queerness or anything else that Christofascists hate–but I worry about people, especially younger ones, putting themselves in harm’s way by outing themselves to dangerous people when they aren’t in a safe place to do so yet. (Luckily, Joyce is surrounded by people who would totally throw hands in her defense, but still.)
But also, Carol’s “you don’t mean that” in response to Joyce telling her what she *very much does* mean is giving me flashbacks to when I tried to tell my parents I was queer for the first time. My mom and Carol would get along way too well, and I love that for me (/s).
Mother of my ex was quite catholic, doing weekly rosary hours and stuff like that. When she heard of my ex quitting the church (a formal step in Germany because of church taxes), she was relieved because, in her words, “I would not have felt good about you marrying in church”.
Quite religious, but quite not proselytizing. Her faith was for herself to hold, not for others vicariously. So many zealots want to force others to believe because they feel guilty about not believing themselves.
Fingers crossed that the atheism conversation that may be happening gives us a clue to what’s going on with Jordan, as my theory had been he was an atheist.
Frankly, with those nutcases being of a different Christian flavor should be more than enough.
Probably gay.
Family of a friend, the middle brother demanded his younger sibling stay away from family gatherings in order not to be a bad influence on his children, or he’d out him to the family patriarch. So my friend (the oldest brother) and the mother took it on themselves to clue the (arch-conservative) patriarch in. It did achieve the objective of “protecting” the middle brother’s children from exposure to the youngest brother, just not in the manner he had planned for.
But somehow I think that Carol’s priorities about how to lead a family would be different.
It feels like Jordan being gay would mostly be retreading a lot of old ground from Becky, and it would also make Hank’s slow ‘being okay with Becky’ seem even worse.
I feel it might be a religious thing, but honestly it could be anything.
Oh, I was looking back through the archives to see pages with the parents, and found this one: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/maniac/ The reason she sold her house isn’t just because of the bail money they put up, but they probably lost a small fortune to the lawsuit that followed because of the kidnapping.
Actually, “God isn’t real” is a perfectly reasonable statement for a believer to make since “real” is the attribute covering all of God’s creation, and that does not include herself whose level of existence transcends ours.
Okay, I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get blasted, but to be fair Joyce’s mom is going through a divorce right now and is sitting alone in that house surroubded by memories that once gave her comfort, now are daggers reminding her of what she lost. While selling the home so abrubtly is excessive, it’s no differrent than someone going through a midlife crisis. Divorce does crazy things to people. And the church that she used as a crutch for her life and justification to her views is facing closure, so she sees this as a two birds and one stone sort of thing, while having a dream of God telling you this is a bit far fetch I do think these things could have contributed in something like a dream. It’s not an excuse for her bringing all this up so cavalierly, anyone could have told her that Joyce right now needs some structure of stability, but then again this isn’t the first time she has been ignorant of other people’s feelings.
As for Joyce saying God isn’t real, far be it for me to argue, but are we sure she truly feels God isn’t real or is she just angry with God and more angry at her church/ mother. I mean if she truly feels this way and is embracing atheism, more power to her, but is this a state of disbelief or a state of rebellion is my question.
A recurring point in her arc is she’s never actually felt God the way Becky has, that was something that was on her mind even before Toedad happened, we don’t entirely know what happened over the timeskip but it seems that Mike’s death (which Carol just invalidated Joyce’s feelings on in this strip) was the final straw where Joyce finally admitted to herself she didn’t believe
tl;dr: she was always an Atheist she was just in denial about it
Nobody can literally “feel” an imaginary entity. The test for atheism can’t be that, unless you’re claiming every non-delusional religious person is an atheist because they don’t think they have first hand experience of “God”.
Strategy wise it would have been better not to admit the atheism, but on the other hand Carol might still go through her horrible decision so it strategy won’t matter…
What's gayer?
whatever it is Dorothy and Joyce are doing now (84%, 2,828 Votes)
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Joyce: *hands Carol this card*
also Joyce: *shouts*
A few years ago I found myself headbanging along to some NIN and thinking “Man, Trent was really on the mark with these lyrics,” and then I realized I had become a pizza cutter.
All edge, no point?
Don’t we all go through a pizza cutter phase at some point in our lives? No judgement here; sometimes a little teen angst music just hits the spot.
Agnostic here, but yeah, church should be the people, not the building.
Or even personal faith and not a building full of terrible people.
As a lifelong Atheist, I believe that a church is the people, not the building. Just like how your home should be your family, not the bricks and mortar (or whatever) house. 🙂
The real religion is the friends and family we made along the way.
Anyone who thinks the building is The Church as much as or more than the people? They have ‘lost the plot’, as it were.
Buildings are replaceable. Nice to have, but not necessary. You can conduct service in a parishioner’s home, in a public building with reservable rooms/times, or outdoors.
If your church was only established in [year the building was built], then maybe consider something more personal
Asgard’s not a place, it’s a people.
Yeah even if I was religious I can’t imagine going to church. Just seems like a pain in the ass and if I wanna pray I dunno why I’d have to go to a place to do it. I know how to read.
Same reason people go to concerts instead of sitting at home listening to CDs; sometimes you want it to be an experience you share with others.
Oh man, let me tell you what Jesus said about going around sharing your prayers with others.
“Where two or three are gathered, I am there”?
There’s a difference between praying in public just so other people can see you, gathering somewhere private to pray in the company of a few fellow believers, and gathering with many nominal believers to lose yourself in a group experience. Personally, I’m in the camp of “God gave me this day off, I’m not getting up early to put on pants and deal with other people” but I understand why some people are.
“go into your room and close the door”, prayer isn’t a group activity.
The context makes it clear that being seen praying is itself not a bad thing, but praying in order to be seen praying (i.e. seeking community recognition for having done so) is a bad thing.
Never really understood concerts, either. You just get a worse performance with worse audio and a worse atmosphere, and you pay a premium for the privilege.
Never again.
“worse atmosphere” Well here’s the reason you don’t understand it. People that enjoy concerts will tell you the atmosphere is so much better than sitting at home
Depends on the hardware you have at home.
Not dunking on people who like the concert experience, but we can get tooth-busting decibels at home now, and you don’t need to deal with sweaty, filthy, fart monsters like me jumping around in front of you.
That, and some bands only seem to put on their best performance when they have an audience to react to. For instance, I was never more than a casual fan of Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, but those guys absolutely killed it live. Webb Wilder is also great live, and half the fun is listening to Webb going off on one of his cheerfully deranged rants. Some bands aren’t all that great live, but some bring an energy and intensity to live shows that even their best studio work just can’t match.
Some people like to feel the music in their bones as opposed to hearing full fidelity through their headphones. I do the same sometimes with my speaker setup at home, usually when my wife isn’t around to get annoyed with my video game metal playlist.
Wow, never knew I had a twin.
Some outdoor concerts can have very good sound. I saw (and heard) the Allman brothers at some venue in western Massachusetts. I don’t know if this is typical.
Here are my personal reasons as an agnostic congregationalist. Who comes from a fairly liberal and queer accepting church.
1. Potluck
2. Coffee Hour after church
3. Getting to meet up with my old friends and talk.
4. It’s fun singing familiar songs with people.
5. Helping out with a soup kitchen makes me feel good, but is a lot easier with a group of friends to help tone done the social anxiety.
6. It gets me out of the house on a Sunday.
As a fellow agnostic those all seem like great reasons for attending a warm accepting place where friends also attend and that doesn’t shame, condemn, belittle, deny or otherwise reduce people based on who they fundamentally happen to be.
I think Joyce thought her church offered her and Becky all of those things (because true Christians of the exact right flavour) until they went back after the first kidnapping attempt. Realising that was not the case really hurt her and her mother never saw or acknowledged that. Hank did…
And that was the first time I think Joyce questioned out loud to somebody who she trusted to maybe know the answer whether or not her mother could be considered a monster.
That sounds right.
But I think she also saw clearly for the first time the hypocrisy — that the God preached from the pulpit and in Sunday school, and the one the members claimed as the authority for their actions, were two very different people.
I wonder whether she might someday discover that she still believes in the former. She was a truer Christian than those around her, and still is.
I don’t think so. She saw that what they were preaching drove what Ross did and what Carol said. Hypocrisy wasn’t the problem.
Well, apart from systemic hypocrisy. Today’s church is quite not what St Paul’s church was, and St Paul’s church never has been anywhere close to what Christ’s synagogue had been.
But yes, other than that hypocrisy had not been the problem and Joyce had little choice other than throwing out the muck water along with the swamp eels.
I always saw Joyce as the quintessential Christian. Maybe she can be the quintessential Humanist?
Praying can be done anywhere, and this is encouraged at several points in the Bible. Believers meet regularly to keep their belief aligned, so somebody doesn’t get funny ideas and run off the rails. Obviously it doesn’t always work, and now and then an entire congregation runs off the rails together. (See an example right here in DoA.) But it seems to work almost all the time.
Entire denominations and organizations run off the rails regularly. We’ve had wars between different Christian sects over doctrine.
Joyce’s church is part of a large Christian movement, not a single congregation that’s gone astray.
It doesn’t work anywhere near all the time.
Considering the rails a lot of churches are on a lot of people would be in a lot better place if the individuals did go off the rails.
This is, oddly, an extremely Christian perspective. The idea that the whole of the religion is in this one book? Hell, it’s specifically a Protestant bit of bullshit.
No other religion, pre-Martin Luther, does that. Religion is social identity, first and foremost, not a textbook you read.
I dunno Carol, sounds like idolatry to me, but what do I know.
It is. At least, she’s putting church above God.
My wife’s church used to have a carved wooden sign that said “Meetingplace of the Mennonite Church” and I thought that was a rather elegant bit of ecclesiology in such a compact form.
Some years ago they got rid of that sign because a bunch of marketing students told them to get an electronic sign at great expense. Which is now broken. The company says replacement parts are not available so they asked me if I could repair it. (Answer = ‘yes, probably’)
Even though I am an atheist I miss the old wooden sign. I don’t believe in god but I do believe in communities.
Much like the building, the value of the sign is not in itself but in what it represents. I haven’t seen it, but you’ve given us the important part, and I like that sign already.
They’re a good congregation. Nary a bible thumper in the bunch, and they put a lot of resources into disaster relief; building houses, clearing roads, etc. Long history of sponsoring refugees. Modified their building to host a Head Start location. Recently they went through a difficult transformation to become GLBTQ+ friendly. Lost a few members, gained more. And they’ve never given me any grief over being an atheist.
Hey, I found a picture!
Getting Linda levels of “I’m your mother and can will my reality over your actual literal life at a moment’s notice” from Carol here. Just need a weaponized “I love you,” and it’ll be complete.
Remember “I would die for you, Joyce”?
I do not give her long for that last one.
She’s also clearly decided “I would kill you and your friends for the church” so her professing “I would die for you” seems like something she just says because it makes her feel righteous.
I believe she does love Joyce. It’s a conditional love, that cares more deeply about the state of Joyce’s soul (to Carol’s specific beliefs about what’s best for said soul) than her wellbeing on this earth, and it’s the kind of love that would therefore allow her to justify kidnapping Joyce at gunpoint in the name of saving her from herself, but it is a form of (incredibly fucked-up and unhealthy for Joyce) love. That’s the realization Joyce had when she heard that.
It does also make her feel righteous, though.
I believe Carol believes she loves Joyce – but to me, love is an action verb, not a feeling. Carol doesn’t act with love.
Conditional love isn’t love, it’s manipulation and emotional abuse.
*points*
Ding ding!
Having a parent who weaponizes “I would die for you” myself, the thing you need to understand is that it’s not sincere. All it is, is a guilt trip.
Think like how macho bluster works: the one who most dramatically declares their machismo is usually the most insecure about it and phony. Same thing here. People who actually love someone enough to die for them don’t feel the need to go on about it like that. Or use it as a weapon in an argument.
I would did for you is such a Bon Jovi level of 80s bullshittery. Great, now you’re dead and what exactly did that achieve? How about you drop the dramatics and live well for the people you profess to love? Bring in the mail, wrap them in a blanket when they’re cold, make a drink just because, take care of some of the little niggles in their life that make living harder for them and, if you’re a parent, raise your child to be prepared to live and thrive in this world. This is what I want from the world, even if it does make for less catchy songs.
Die not did…
“I would die for you” and “I would kill you for the church” aren’t mutually exclusive though.
She may be a fanatic but if Joyce’s life was in danger for something not church related, she actually could put her life on the line to save her daughter.
Having fucked up religious beliefs doesn’t preclude people from also having a *few* not-horrible qualities.
As bad as she is Linda is still not on Carol’s level.
Eh, she’s in this arc too, give her time to remind us she can compete. At some point she’s going to start pressuring Walky to start prepping for med school and we already know she’s a financial abuser. There’s PLENTY of room for that to get coercive and awful.
(That said, I do agree in that I don’t see Linda as likely to threaten Walky’s life ACTIVELY in quite the same way I worry about Carol “talked about how they should get a gun the WEEKEND AFTER Kidnapping 1” Brown with Joyce and Jocelyne. But I still give it a fairly low odds overall.)
She’s still got to try and talk Walky out of being in a relationship with a browner person then he is. Linda’s go nowhere to go but deeper!
Yeah, that’s probably going to be the first disaster of this visit on the Walky arc’s side.
I’d like to think maybe she won’t go there, maybe she won’t be the worst, but I know in my heart she will.
Not to mention a non-zero chance of this universe’s Shinigami buying in wholesale. 😗
Linda’s racism (and the system into which it plays) is just as deadly as Carol funding Ross’s bail.
Linda was left speechless the last time she saw Carol. Ironically, it was when she saw Carol use optics (of all things) as a cudgel in an argument with Hank.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/public/
Oh, Joyce, you’re really in it now.
She’s spent the entire run of the comic getting out of it.
The way this is going, we are heading towards the next kidnapping and an exorcism.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there we go.
Finally, Carol admits that she doesn’t care.
How so?
By going “the church is more important than anyone” as a response to “our church’s action directly led to the death of my friend”?
Ohhhh. I thought you meant that Carol doesn’t care about Joyce. Thanks for clarifying.
I mean its not far off, she said the church is more important then anyone, anyone includes Joyce
Exactly. When it comes right down to it, fundamentalists of all stripes are entirely self-centered. It’s all about self-preservation. They believe in an all-powerful being that is threatening them, and they’ll do anything to save themselves, up to and including disposing of everyone they ever cared about and every principle they ever held. And this being is ok with that attitude because He is evil.
And because this being is capable of mind-reading, they’re desperate to not let themselves even consider that this being isn’t good, since He might take offense to that and start abusing them too. It’s an extraordinarily desperate and fucked up situation they’re in, and one of the reasons it’s so hard to rescue them. They have to give themselves permission to actually evaluate their deity, and that is the one thing above all they’re not allowed to do – heck they even made faith into a virtue, which it is not. God hates critics.
Very, very well said.
One thing I will disagree with: redeeming your promises is a virtue. That’s what “faith” actually means. Overloading it to mean “mindless acceptance” is one of the great social crimes of all time and is a gateway to other crimes. This latter meaning is actually deprecated in the Bible: “test the spirits that come to you.”
1 John 4:1: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” I like that one better than Matthew 4:7: “Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'” (also backed up by Deuteronomy 6:16).
So… we’re to test every spirit but God, but we’ve got to test the spirit to know if they’re God. Well, fortunately, 1 John 4:2 gives an easy way to check: “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”… except that there are many religion abusers who preach the “mindless acceptance” definition of “faith” yet would easily pass that test.
The world would be a better place if your version of Christianity were the only one, Mark, but unfortunately it isn’t.
Joyce also agreed that everyone in the church was an asshole. So that includes Carol.
Which is true, but boy, that’s just gonna heat things up.
That’s what she said.
Break my heart…
Yep. It doesn’t even faze her that an actual person, the age of her daughter, died over it. Only the cult matter.
It wasn’t anybody she knew, so she’s completely unaffected. Can’t waste any empathy on a stranger in this zero-sum game we call life!
That’s the kind of self-centered detachment that led to the “everyone besides me and the people I like is an NPC” thinking you see on social media.
Technically Carol and Mike spoke on the phone once. Albeit it was not a conversation that would make Carol feel bad about his death.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/answer-2/
And man, if this any conversation in this comic needed a dose of Mike, this one is it.
Believe in god all you want selling your house is just a dumb move. Who else in the congregation is coming out of pocket like this? Looking at you youth pastor Powers.
other than just going to church out of habit or being set in your ways, how do ppl get that old without ever questioning it, tho luckily i didn’t grow up in a religious household with beliefs forced on me
I wonder what a Mustang is worth
Google says a 2016 Mustang (ballparking that year) MSRPs around $25k USD. For their precious missionary, I could see a church of sufficient size breaking 30 for a GT.
Oh but she DOES, Carol! Stick it to her JoyJoe!!!! ✌️👿
*plays “Be Quick or Be Dead” by Iron Maiden on hacked muzak*
The song that Joyce’s story arc makes me think of most is “Look on Down from the Bridge” by Mazzy Star.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g41FFmNU66U
Oh holy fuck.
She did it. She really did it. She dropped the bombshell.
I love the juxtaposition of Joyce’s raised eyebrow and shaky voice. Indicating that whatever Carol says next will be the final straw…. and yet, she knows what the outcome will be.
Good catch. That’s cool comic design.
Yeah, Damnyouwillis does some really good expressions, given how simple the designs are.
Perfection is achieved not when nothing more can be added, but when nothing more can be removed.
For me it’s how “calm” Carol is being. The lack of changes of expression. Not just this comic either, but throughout her latest appearance. She’s been eerily calm, considering last time she was here Ruth had to suplex her to get her under control. The woman is a fucking monster, and yet she’s a monster who has seen her bedrock crumble around her and had to choose between the thing that had always been a constant but was now revealed as a haven of actual evil or her own kid. She chose the former, and can’t seem to believe it herself. This woman is not going to stay this calm for long, and it’s going to be bad when it changes.
Despair can be a very calm, comfortable, and even reassuring place. People like Carol can watch their entire world burn down around them without batting an eyelash, while confidently stating that this one tiny island of supposed stability was all they REALLY cared about anyway. And besides, they still have plenty of memories of how the world used to be, which is really just as good as the real thing if you think about it, especially since the world is obviously going to return to that state, aaaannnny minute now.
Popcorn ready.
Pizza and fundie-repelling demonic Rock and Roll ready!
Interested in seeing Joyce’s mother and father having these sorts of discussions. Bonus strip, maybe?
So things are going well.
Smooth sailing from here on out.
I mean, Joyce said ‘Ding Ding’. Sounds like it’s going well to me.
whelp. I bet I know how Joyce gets outed to Hank.
You think freshly divorced Carol has a good enough relationship with Hank to talk about this with him? I feel like conversations like these are why they got divorced to begin with.
It could always come up in some fresh screaming match.
good enough relationship? This is ammo.
I think the police report where Hank is called to bail out Carol because she tried to assault Joyce will do the talking for her.
Why would he do that?
I don’t think he would, but I can imagine someone phoning him to say he should.
Not that he WOULD, but I would expect she’d either call him, or have the church call him.
Talk with him? No
Yell at and blame him for? Maybe
Hank divorced her over this exact behavior. He put up with it less than Joyce did.
I assure you, in the 30+ years they were married*, Hank definitely tolerated a lot more of this shit than Joyce did in her mere 18 years of being alive. Hank just reached his endpoint at a slightly earlier date.
*: Probably more like 40+, but I don’t have a particular citation for the length of their marriage beyond that John is noted to be twice Joyce’s age, and there is no known reason to believe that he was born out of wedlock
I don’ t think Hank will cut her out of his life for this. He acknowledged she has a good moral compass. Believing or not believing in God doesn’t change that. He strikes me, on his best days, as the kind of Christian who cares more about if you’re walking the walk than if you’re walking it exactly the way he would.
I think he would also appreciate why the guy in the church he and his wife raised her in, who their church – with his wife’s support – bailed out of jail and supported over her and her best friend, kidnapping her and several friends and being involved in the murder of another friend (even if it was “member of friend group” rather than “close friend who she appreciated and cherished”) would lead to her questioning the existence of a divinity. And when that kidnapper and HER OWN MOTHER seemed to use them as a stand-in for “excuse to exert absolute control over her life, denying her agency, knowledge, healthcare (glasses, adequate treatment for her severe dysmenorrhoea, the possibility of an autism/Asperger’s diagnosis even coming up until college…) and making it absolutely clear that they consider Becky better off dead in this life than gay – coming up devoutly atheist is a really reasonable outcome, given the way Joyce had understood that she had to believe.
Becky’s belief, because it was “Jesus is good, he’s love, the rest is details” allows for flexibility. Therefore, He sent a superhero on a motorbike to save her from a kidnapper – how could they not be good? She can keep the positives because she’d probably never even learnt to parrot the other stuff word from word properly, let alone convincingly enough for Toedad’s liking. Sure, her upbringing has affected her – her “the good stuff’s covered up > Dina wears hats > Dina’s head is the hottest thing on the planet” kink for instance… But she can remain positive about religion and a Christian because it isn’t all one tangled knot that has fallen apart.
Joyce genuinely thought that she literally had to ferociously believe EVERYTHING she was told absolutely or she would be Damned. There was a lot of tension and turmoil hidden down deep behind the triangle smile as she MADE herself do that, even with the “contradictory bits” and has now pretty much flat out been told she was being brainwashed by an adult she respected (the argument with Toedad on the basement stairs…). But I think now when she looks back at those days the one thing that isn’t ashes in her mouth is Becky being light-hearted, irreverent, making her make The Face but also picking off the sausage from her pizza because that’s how she likes it. Accepting her and loving her and expanding her life.
Still a better idea to figure out how and when to out yourself as an atheist than to have it be a “I told you so” from a third party.
Coming Out Atheist if anyone is finding themselves in this kind of situation.
Even if she was faking, I couldn’t blame her. I wouldn’t wanna believe in Carol’s god either.
It saddens me to no end this is a true story.
There’s safety for us ’cause we’re just the reader. But, yeah, it’s super depressing and I’m glad Willis is working through it in what seems like a healthy way.
That’s what I’ve been thinking all week
uuuuh, which part? Willis was never involved in a huge ridiculous kidnapping/murder incident and he didn’t come out to his parents as an atheist when he was Joyce’s age. In fact he has mentioned in the comments that he gets better (or got) along with his parents when they know the least about him, if I recall with the implication that he doesn’t bother correcting them when they still think he’s a faithful Christian.
Are you really simping for an abusive relationship right now?
Either I don’t know what simping means or you don’t. I’m not sexually thirsty for a depiction of an abusive relationship, no.
Fundie mom selling the house for the church is from his life.
It seems like each of Joyce’s siblings represent some facet of those relationships.
Pretty sure the alt text are verbatim words told to him.
OK so to set the record straight “The financial security of our church is more important than life of your friend who one of us killed.”
Is what she has to say about Mike
Well, yeah. He wasn’t one of THEM, was he?
I don’t usually want Mike in conversations, but I wish he was still alive to chime in on tis one.
I’m sure he’d offer to chip in a nickel, if she’d like to earn it via an honest job.
… I think. Would Mike draw the line somewhere?
I’d like to think he’d just calmly throw up the horns and yell Hail Satan again.
This is going to end in tears, possibly from Carol or Joe, but definitely from Joyce.
Relatedly, telling someone you don’t believe in God, and then to have them say “you don’t mean it” is the height of bullshit. As if someone knows how you feel about something more than you do.
I don’t like being told how I feel in general. That makes me feel amgru/
You feel angry! At me, for telling you to feel angry!
Even I am mad at me about it! > : (
(In seriousness though, I likewise despise being told how to feel.)
You can’t just have your comments announce how you feel! That makes me feel angry!
Page not found? So clearly you can’t… 😉
To quote Jennifer, “Motherfucker!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBhR4QcBtE
oops, someone told me I couldn’t have ever been a true believer in the comments of the next strip and I got amgru/
I think Carol is in denial – Joyce saying she doesn’t believe in god probably feels to Carol like she has lost her daughter. Said daughter should probably grab Joe and skedaddle before the next phase of grief kicks in though.
Ah yes. The Good Grief. The Charlie Brown event horizon.
They run down the sidewalk, past Booster sitting behind Lucy van Pelt’s “Psychiatric Help 5¢” sign.
Amber makes one of her rare forays outdoors, sees the sign, and just shakes her head. Booster hangs his head low.
their*
I’d say it’s not so much denial as it’s Carol is used to telling Joyce what Joyce thinks without pushback.
Carol probably has a hard time even conceiving that Joyce is an independent person, rather than an extension of herself.
Without wishing to sound too defensive of Carol, it’s possible she doesn’t see herself as an independent person. Considering the combination of fundie misogyny and whatever “I’m nothing without Jesus” nonsense that she’s likely been forced into believing, I doubt she sees autonomy as an option for herself or for Joyce.
I mean, Carol is in denial, but not in the grieving sense. In the sense of living her life in denial of several aspects of reality, including but not limited to the fact that Joyce is an autonomous person capable of meaningful independent thought.
And leave Carol alone inside Joyce’s room with all of her private things, potential access to her computer, meds, and the like?
I get the idea of diffusing the situation and closing it out, but at the very least if you’re going to do that make sure to get Ruth to keep an eye on Carol.
I think Carol is in denial too, but to be fair, parents belittle and ignore all kinds of stuff their children say with “you don’t believe that.” So it’s probably reflex kicking in here more than anything else.
No, said daughter should kick Carol out of her room, her floor, and her dorm.
People old enough to be grandparents tend to pull that kinda crap, it’s the seniority and feeling of being much wiser than some 20 or 30-something who hasn’t lived a quarter of their lifetime taking over and talking.
Not much you can do, they might come around to it eventually, especially if they see you thrive, but they might not live long enough to accept that you never were what they thought you were, and that you were merely pretending just to not upset ’em.
That’s pretty ageist. I didn’t think that sort of stereotype-based attacks on people were welcome here.
It’s neither a stereotype nor an attack, just something that all people can do as we get older. It’s an insightful comment and a warning about a destructive behaviour that we all get more at risk for over time. There’s real wisdom in it.
Also, considering the very real systemic agism that affects young people, especially minors (yes, minors are a marginalized group), recognizing that older people typically feel entitled to supremacy over younger people isn’t an agist statement
If God was real could he make a burrito so hot that even he couldn’t eat it?
CHECKMATE Theists.
I think if he could, that burrito would be capable of forming a new universe from the sheer raw power required to beat omnipotence. They wrote a really powerful deity into their campaign, I gotta hand it to ’em.
Yes, but then he’d eat it anyway.
(It worked for Victor Mancha.)
i mean if ur supposed to be perf, things would get boring, maybe you’d do things that’d cause yourself pain within reason without going super mascohist lol
… wait, Mike’s going to come back as The Cheese in this universe too? 🤔
I’ve never understood this. Being omnipotent includes the ability to make yourself non-omnipotent. I don’t see the logical problem with that.
(And arguing that a perfect being can’t make themself imperfect has nothing to do with this question.)
God doesn’t need to eat burritos.
Checkmate atheists.
Boom, unfazed.
You’re in a cult Carol well technically all religions are a cult beacuse they venerate and devote themselves to a prominent figure but generally cults have negative connotations depending on who you ask the idea of religion has negative connotations.
Point is Carol you and your cult sucks!
With my Christian upbringing I was taught about things such as kindness, Caring, Humility, and Love for the people around me along with some other stuff. When I grew up though I noticed that there was a large scale of people who claimed to have similar beliefs as me but clearly lacked all the values I grew up with.
Carol feels like one of those people who never truly understood or just straight up never really believed in what she was preaching.
Let’s not go down the road of “fundies don’t actually believe”. That’s denying the reality of what religious fundamentalism is.
I remember very little from my religious childhood and the only things that really stuck with me are just “treat your neighbor well, treat people the way you wanna be treated” and “respect your elders”. Now you can argue that last one ain’t always worth practicing but for my money I’m at least always polite and cordial until you give me a reason not to be.
I remember “Respect your mother and father” but since a ton of people who like preaching the Bible aren’t good at it they often forget the second part of that verse which is “Don’t provoke your children to anger.”
My favorite Bible quote in High School was II Thessalonians 5:21—
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” Great line for skewering the faith-alone crowd.
The Parable of the Good Samaritan already tells the faith-alone crowd to fuck off. It ends with Jesus pretty much going “do deeds, motherfucker.”
“But a guy who wasn’t our literal god and messiah said we don’t need to, I think we can ignore what our deity said.”
I hate to sound like a Paul apologist, but this misrepresentation annoys me. Paul’s conflict with the disciples was over ritual purity/adherence to Torah Law, not about “do deeds, motherfucker”.
It’s easy to ignore when we read Paul today because we’re not even thinking in those terms
Paul was also a misogynist. Most of the terrible stuff people use from the Bible to justify all sorts of bigotry is from letters (or the Old Testament).
respect is a two way street tho parents never understand that lol. maybe by the time gen z are old enoguh to be grandkids things will get better for ppl growing up
Or one of those people that just uses the term since that is what she grew up as, but could care less about what the actual original source says since it doesn’t fit in with what she wants to believe (or was taught to believe by others). There’s a reason why they originally didn’t want the Bible translated into the native languages of the common people and kept in Latin (easier to tell people what to believe and what it’s interpretation says).
A basic rarely understood truth about Christianity is that it’s far more based on tradition than on the actual words in the Bible. Even in fundamentalist, literalist sects.
At least the Catholics are more honest about that and keep the church doctrine as a formal thing.
Indeed. The key to the success of Christianity (along with most other major recruitment-based religions such as Islam and Buddhsim) is malleability. Christianity went really quickly from being a suppressed mystical cult to being the state religion of Rome, for example.
To some extent, though the suppression wasn’t as extreme or consistent as it’s sometimes portrayed.
But mostly that there’s been debate and conflict about what the religion was from the very beginning. Not only do we have people been arguing about what the NT texts mean as far back as we have records, but the NT itself is a record of those conflicts going back to the days of Paul and of James and Peter. The Gospels tell different stories and teach different theologies. Every different movement or heresy or denomination comes with its own traditions and teachings about what it all means.
And this goes back to Judaism as well – though like the Catholics they do so more formally with the Talmud and Midrash
Your upbringing wasn’t in that precise denomination.
She absorbed the memes, not the values.
DING DING DING!
I. Smell. Fundie. As always..
*dons a Morgan Freeman mask*
ohmydrpeppershesaidit
Bye mom, let the door hit you on the way out! Multiple times! With a hammer!
:(( dang this is sad. Inevitable but still sad, esp when you consider the additional contexts within this strip.
It’s not like cutting Joyce off is a credible threat anymore…her mom just blew all the family’s money on her cult. So she’s already cut off.
I was wondering the same thing. If Joyce’s mom is giving everything to the church, even their house, where is the money to keep Joyce at IU going to come from? Joyce is going to be in the same boat as Becky was when her parents yanked her out of Anderson.
Joyce has a friendly dentist father.
Also loans are an option.
Yeah, the sense I got is that Hank is funding Joyce’s education, at least in part. Carol has nothing to do with that.
We don’t know what assets Hank got as part of the deal that gave Carol the house and the car.
Also there might be an education fund that can’t be spent except for Joyce’s benefit. I know New York State has such things as a tax break because I had to manage the transfer as an executor.
Does that apply when the benefiary is technically an adult? If so that’s pretty cool.
I think so, but I am not absolutely sure. My dad set money aside in one of these plans for his grandchildren. For unknown reasons this money wasn’t spent on the college educations they got, so it just sat there, under my father’s nominal control but specifically allocated to them. When he passed away, I had to get them to set up educational accounts in their own names and then I transferred the money to them. I can’t say for certain that I couldn’t have sucked it back in the general estate, but I doubt it.
What has happened to them since then, I am not sure. If they decided to go back to school for an advanced degree they can use those funds. If not it just sits there tax deferred. I suspect they could eventually roll it over to their kids. Or they might be able to take it out for non-educational purposes, but with a tax penalty, as with taking out IRA money too early.
I recently looked into setting up such an account for my child. It varies based on where you live, but in my state, such funds can be used for educational purposes (e.g. private school, college, vocational/tech school, etc.), withdrawn with a tax penalty, or rolled over into a tax-exempt retirement account.
College funds kind of have to work when the beneficiary is a technically an adult, since that’s almost every college student, even as a freshman.
Might be a 529 fund. They’re established by Federal law but administered by the states.
Given that we only made it out of a decade-long semester thanks to a time skip, that may never become an issue.
You know, being a former christian I do have to say I see a lot of my former self in this discussion. I am very glad that Joyce understands that a church is ultimately just a community like any other, and can be just as bad. I do hope she manages to stand her ground against Carol’s delusional views
i wonder if ppl have just not necessarily believed but went to church and just used the confessional booth as more of a therapy session though i suppose the guy on the other end can’t give you proper advice that’s not also a religious thing like “say three hail marys” or so
Oh, he can.
…and of course the confessional booth was the closest thing to therapy that existed for well over a thousand years.
This. Even Freud noticed his patients were mostly Protestants and Jews with very few Catholics.
Yes, Carol. She really means it.
And Joe delivers the Will Smith styled slap, verbally.
Does Will Smith actually allow himself to say “Asshole” though?
XD
If things continue to escalate, I could see Joe deciding to take a risk, stepping forward, and saying, “Carol, you need to leave this room. Now.”
♫Ding Ding Ding Goes the trolley
Ding Ding Ding Goes the bell
Ding Ding Ding Goes my heartstrings
My daughter is going to hell♫
-not how I feel.
I absolutely love this and no, Judy Garland is belting in my brain.
Carol had one chance to salvage the situation and she blew it in the first panel
Proud of Joyce for sticking to her guns and proud of Joe for being fast to switch from “prefect gentleman” mode to “Imma help you burn this bridge” mode
she’d probably see it as a ‘test’ or try harder to get joyce back on her side rather than a burnt bridge
Carol already said tons of shit that makes the situation unsalvagable.
I dunno if I can be *proud* of Joe for this when he’s the one who instigated the mode switch to begin with against Joyce’s implied wishes. I don’t think he did anything wrong but it’s not necessarily a big character moment or anything.
Hes talking about feelings without running away though. That is still new with him, particularly dealing with messy stuff in a relationship.
If Church is so much more important then any single individual then why did it go broke over a single man’s bail Carol??
Because he was a part of the church, unlike that random college kid fuck him. You know the classic republican “us vs them” mindset.
I get the mindset but still wanted to highlight how her own logic is contradictory. She’s arguing that she has to foot the bill for the building because it’s integral to the well being of the church as a whole which is more important then herself (also a member) and her daughters financial and emotional well being but by that logic the church should not have risked itself in the first place for a single member. I doubt Carol will ever admit it was more about supporting homophobic Christian “ideals” by freeing Ross then standing by their church members.
The hypocrisy and doublethink are load-bearing parts of this mindset. It keeps the followers in line by making them feel, not letting them think from a broad perspective.
The “enemy” is both feeble and an existential threat. Those people are bad, unlike you. We have always been at war with Eastasia.
You mean Eurasia.
‘We stand by our own.’
In more positive news, Round 2 of Autistic Girlie’s Bracket has started, vote for our autistic queen Dina!!!! 😍
https://www.tumblr.com/autisticgirliesbracket/719668530602278912/autistic-girlies-bracket-round-2-side-a?source=share
I’ve never heard of the other character, so it’d be unsporting to vote.
Tumblrina here! That’s how it works. There’s no sportsmanship in tumblr brackets.
the only sportsmanship on tumblr is not reposting other people’s work
everything else is fair game
You know that Carol absolutely tells people she is “Pro-Life” but doesn’t even skip a beat to explain to her daughter that the life of her friend was worth less than the Church that facilitated his murder.
One of the first things she did after the shooting was to talk about how she wanted Hank to buy a gun into order to murder gophers.
I was honestly expecting it to take a lot longer to tear off this bandaid, and for it to be a lot more devastating. But there’s an almost worse horror, not being told “how dare you” but rather “I know you don’t mean that.” Outrage would at least validate that earth-shattering experience she went through, as hard as it would be. Complete dismissal of it has to sting a lot worse.
So was Joyce. The biggest deal was in her head. Nobody reacted as dramatically to Joyce’s atheism as she herself did. Becky was more mad that she made fun of her than that she was an atheist, nobody else gave a hoot at all, and for Carol, the religion aspect was an ideological justification for the existence of her Mafia-like criminal organisation, but not primary to it.
Joyce was the sincere believer, not Carol.
So are they still on for lunch?
Isn’t lunch the Walkertons’ thing?
Joe offered to treat Carol and Joyce to lunch two strips ago.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/delight/
Here’s hoping they go to Galasso’s, where the Walkertons happen to be! Maybe Becky is on shift and has to keep sneaking past them. Hijinks! They must ensue!
Lunch can be anybody’s thing, until 5 pm. [taps menu]
It took me like six years and hundreds of conversations with twitter fascists before I accepted there’s a type of person who it’s pointless to talk to; who just don’t accept new information. Humans switched to read-only mode and with the switch burned off.
So that’s probably going to take a while for Joyce, especially when it’s her mom.
Read-only mode 😄
Love it
yeah I think Joyce’s last shred of faith just fled out the window
I love it when people say, “you don’t mean that.” *
* I don’t actually love it.
Yaaay, control via gaslighting.
Not sure what else I expected, really.
Kind of a chancy method of control: I would take it to mean “I don’t want to believe that you mean that.”
Hiding that in a footnote is ACTUALLY a sign that, deep down, subconsciously, you DO love it. What you really need right now is a wise, benevolent, person such as myself to point it out for you and put you on the right path!
Boo, I wanted the “Joyce is an atheist now” thread to come later because I’m insanely curious as to how Carol would explain away Ross being involved in murder and kidnapping and now we’ll never know because the focus of this conversation will be Joyce’s new non belief
She literally just did, though. Anything to protect the church is cool.
It doesn’t seem that hard to explain. Ross was a good man (because devout believer) trying to do a good thing (saving his daughter’s soul). Anything else is irrelevant, really.
The kidnapping might’ve been unfortunate, but an acceptable sacrifice to do the right thing. Saving someone’s soul is worth any price. As for the murder, she already tried to defend Ross with the argument that he didn’t kill anyone. Presumably she would’ve still defended him on principle (after all, he is/was a good man doing a good thing) even if he had been actively involved in killing.
Yes. Like, OMG, Carol is living inside her car, after she sold their house.
(waves hands) Ooh! She did explain quite a while ago.
I fully expect Carol to try her hardest to snuff that conversation with denial, dismissiveness, guilt, and gaslighting.
Interesting how “the church is more important than anything and anyone” translates to “You should accept sacrificing your childhood home and the life of your schoolmate to the church” but it does NOT translate to “The church shouldn’t sacrifice itself in order to protect the individual member that shot up a school.” So, toedad was included in the entity called “the church” that she’s protecting above all else but Joyce, and Joyce’s friends are not.
Yep that’s the unspoken rule your only a real member if you embody their ideals and are useful to the churches agenda in some way. Bailing Ross out gave the church members the ability to go after Becky and what she stood for in their eyes while hiding behind the veil of charity and community.
Nothing odd about that though? The church stands by its own. The members help the church, the church helps its members.
Toedad was a member of the church (and thus worth helping), Joyce’s friends were not. And a good person like Joyce should be able to see why they should side with Toedad (member of church) over their friends (not members of their church). And why sacrificing their house to save the church is the right thing to do.
Side note; I don’t think the church was planning on sacrificing itself completely. They just got pushed over the edge when things escalated.
Carol and her family were also considered members of the church but it has no problem exploiting her being a divorced senior with limited job prospects. Not to mention becky was also a member of the church. Point being the church doesn’t so much help its members as it helped pit family members against each other for its own benefit. Members are expected to sacrifice for the church ideals but this church will not sacrifice for its members, its just find another member to foot the bill for its previous “generosity”.
I imagine saying this to my parents (even I’m not totally disbelieveing God). Parents got angry everytime I skip church. No, I can’t risk
Joyce saying it to her mom, I think the selling house thing was too much to her. Like, nothing to loose.
Oh, I know this tune. The tack Carol is going to take is: “No, you still do believe, and this is childish rebellion against God.”
Hank: you’re an adult now, which means I have to trust that there will be some things you know better than me, and I have to nod and learn from that.
Carol: I raised you better than this! Conform! Confooooorm!
call ruth, joyce
maybe she’ll eject her even harder this time
Her mom is right. I looked up Joyce in the dictionary and it said nothing about people in a church being assholes nor God isn’t real.
Yesterday, I commented that “Joyce is two or three strips away from the moment when she tells her mother to get out of her life, and stay out.”
Tomorrow’s strip, or the day after.
No way, a big dramatic moment like that would be saved for a Friday. I expect a few days of Carla hijinks and someone ranting about transformers movies.
She’s probably still months, if not years, away from going full no-contact with her mom. Fully cutting a family member out of your life is incredibly hard, and most people take a long time to work up to it.
One could argue she already has spent months building up to it.
Does getting kidnapped for an exorcism count as contact?
I think she’s attempting to speedrun her deprogramming
Well, mine was microaggressions and one day with an outright metaphorical smack down I just packed what I could and left. It really can be the no more Thang, even if it looks like Tuesday to everyone else.
maybe this is just my own trauma speaking but I have a bad feeling this is going to turn into her mom going “The Jews are corrupting my youth!”
She’s already blamed it on the transgenders.
And WHO is bankrolling the transgenders’ transgenda?
East Coast Cosmopolitan Elites.
Globalists!
International Bankers!
And more dogwhistles!
Hasbro, makers of the transformers. It all started when you couldn’t tell if it was a robot or a car with the endgame of making us unable to tell man from woman!
I don’t know who said it, but something like “When the bishop says God is real, that’s all in the way of business. But if he says god is not real, you’d better listen.”
I’ve forgotten what Joyce’s chosen major is, but what could only help her later in her college career would be to take an elective course on comparative religions through history.
Here’s where she would find out how Big Daddy, Junior and The Spook rose to the top after Zeus, Odin and the rest of the gang packed it in and left.
See you this weekend at the Humanist meeting, Joyce.
Elementary education. IIRC going in the plan was to get qualified to homeschool her future kids. That has likely changed, but she hadn’t changed it as of the lunch with Dorothy, Jacob, and Raidah. She could still be a schoolteacher if she sticks with it.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/salary/
She might still want to teach kids – with facts, the ability to come to their own conclusions, grace, and kindness.
Wouldn’t it be fun to have an arc about roller derby?
Yes! Especially if we get to see more of team green! (And specifically #31…)
https://www.dumbingofage.com/slowpokes/
So does Joe believe in G-d or is he an atheistic Jew? Is this gonna be a future problem for their relationship?
Probably in ‘yeah sure it exists’ way like Jennifer or Danny. As far as we know he hasn’t been to temple since starting school.
Joe is on record as thinking the idea of a personal god is weird.
That was Ethan.
There is definitely an issue with assuming that people of other faiths think of their God(s) in the same terms Christians do.
He probably doesn’t like the idea of an all-powerful being watching what he gets up to in the bedroom or bathroom.
But mostly the bedroom.
Judaism can be surprisingly sex positive. The first commanent chronologically is “be fruitful and multiply”.
Eh, he’s probably believes in god the same way Jennifer does, only as far as he’d tick that mark on a questionnaire.
Oh boy, lunch is gonna be awkward.
As a catholic I was raised exactly in what Carol says, but of course that was a large-scale operation and the economics made more sense.
I’m not sure if this is a sunk cost fallacy, extreme indotrination, or just plain stupidity. This church cost her friends, her marriage, her home, and even some of her children, but she still thinks it is literally the most important thing to her
Usually it’s the first one.
Having met people like her when I was in the church, they spend their life in the church building up a worldview that make THEM (or at least their congregation) the most righteous person(s) they know. Most of them fight any challenge to their worldview once established because otherwise they’ll have to acknowledge they were both wrong, and treated people horribly because of those misconceptions.
As a side-note, I do think Joyce telling her mom she’s atheist in this moment is a bad play, as it’s going to shut down any chance of Carol actually hearing her. She could/should have expanded on Joe’s point, presenting all of the church and Carol’s actions from an outside perspective (“They freed a man who SHOT at a SCHOOL so he could work with a MOBSTER to KILL SOMEONE and then KIDNAP MORE PEOPLE to either HURT or KILL THEM TOO in order to ABDUCT his ESTRANGED ADULT DAUGHTER!”), unless Willis is trying to communicate that “You don’t mean that” is the tell that the window for reaching her has already closed.
I am reminded of how after Avengers: Infinity War came out, many people thought it was a plot hole that Thanos didn’t change his plan to use the Infinity Stones to increase resources, or any of the many alternatives they presented that did not involve murdering half the universe.
Their mistake was thinking that Thanos wanted to save the universe. His words and actions in the film made it pretty clear that he never cared about saving anyone, he cared about proving that he was RIGHT, that his culling plan would have saved Titan if the people had just LISTENED to him.
So he went out to enact his plan on everybody else. And when learning about the Infinity Stones, the only option he could, psychologically, take was to scale up his original plan. If he even considered ANYTHING else it would mean acknowledging that his plan would never have saved Titan. It would mean that he wasn’t a misunderstood savior who made the tough decisions, but a monster who had murdered billions for NOTHING.
You know, I never considered that, you got a good point. All this time I knew he was stubborn about his plan, but I thought he was trying to make sure what happened this his planet didn’t happen to anyone else.
even if this wasn’t (largely) autobio with the RL outcome already known:
IMO, there never was any chance.
As a Quaker (Friends General Conference), I can appreciate churches as beautiful buildings, but we just meet anywhere. Usually someone’s house.
You ever meet at a McDonald’s or pizza place?
Oh damn, Joyce. I deconverted years ago, and I STILL haven’t told my parents I don’t believe anymore. (I think my dad’s figured it out, but we haven’t had the conversation about it.) I really hope she isn’t putting herself in danger by telling Carol this–I know it’s tempting to be “out” and authentic, whether it’s about atheism or queerness or anything else that Christofascists hate–but I worry about people, especially younger ones, putting themselves in harm’s way by outing themselves to dangerous people when they aren’t in a safe place to do so yet. (Luckily, Joyce is surrounded by people who would totally throw hands in her defense, but still.)
But also, Carol’s “you don’t mean that” in response to Joyce telling her what she *very much does* mean is giving me flashbacks to when I tried to tell my parents I was queer for the first time. My mom and Carol would get along way too well, and I love that for me (/s).
Mother of my ex was quite catholic, doing weekly rosary hours and stuff like that. When she heard of my ex quitting the church (a formal step in Germany because of church taxes), she was relieved because, in her words, “I would not have felt good about you marrying in church”.
Quite religious, but quite not proselytizing. Her faith was for herself to hold, not for others vicariously. So many zealots want to force others to believe because they feel guilty about not believing themselves.
I hope she’ll let me visit when I depart.
Fingers crossed that the atheism conversation that may be happening gives us a clue to what’s going on with Jordan, as my theory had been he was an atheist.
Frankly, with those nutcases being of a different Christian flavor should be more than enough.
Probably gay.
Family of a friend, the middle brother demanded his younger sibling stay away from family gatherings in order not to be a bad influence on his children, or he’d out him to the family patriarch. So my friend (the oldest brother) and the mother took it on themselves to clue the (arch-conservative) patriarch in. It did achieve the objective of “protecting” the middle brother’s children from exposure to the youngest brother, just not in the manner he had planned for.
But somehow I think that Carol’s priorities about how to lead a family would be different.
It feels like Jordan being gay would mostly be retreading a lot of old ground from Becky, and it would also make Hank’s slow ‘being okay with Becky’ seem even worse.
I feel it might be a religious thing, but honestly it could be anything.
Maybe it’s more a politics thing, maybe he’s an outspoken Socialist
You mean like Jesus Christ? Heaven forbid!
Absolutely nothing could possibly go wrong as a result of this disclosure and I unreservedly endorse it.
Good on you Joyce, and good on you Willis if this is based on your own awakening at the Uni.
FUCK THE CHURCH
Carol reminds me so much of my mother-in-law, I’m going to need a few minutes to unclench my teeth. What a dismissive, arrogant, delusional…ugh.
If you think god told you to sell your house that’s not god, that’s probably a gas leak. Get your house checked for gas leaks
And *then* sell it because you don’t want a house that has gas leaks.
Most reasonable person
Oh, I was looking back through the archives to see pages with the parents, and found this one: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/maniac/ The reason she sold her house isn’t just because of the bail money they put up, but they probably lost a small fortune to the lawsuit that followed because of the kidnapping.
Actually, “God isn’t real” is a perfectly reasonable statement for a believer to make since “real” is the attribute covering all of God’s creation, and that does not include herself whose level of existence transcends ours.
This is sophistry, and also doesn’t sound like anything an actual believer would say.
Joyce: What if god was none of us?
Okay, I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get blasted, but to be fair Joyce’s mom is going through a divorce right now and is sitting alone in that house surroubded by memories that once gave her comfort, now are daggers reminding her of what she lost. While selling the home so abrubtly is excessive, it’s no differrent than someone going through a midlife crisis. Divorce does crazy things to people. And the church that she used as a crutch for her life and justification to her views is facing closure, so she sees this as a two birds and one stone sort of thing, while having a dream of God telling you this is a bit far fetch I do think these things could have contributed in something like a dream. It’s not an excuse for her bringing all this up so cavalierly, anyone could have told her that Joyce right now needs some structure of stability, but then again this isn’t the first time she has been ignorant of other people’s feelings.
As for Joyce saying God isn’t real, far be it for me to argue, but are we sure she truly feels God isn’t real or is she just angry with God and more angry at her church/ mother. I mean if she truly feels this way and is embracing atheism, more power to her, but is this a state of disbelief or a state of rebellion is my question.
Carol didn’t lose shit. She threw it away.
A recurring point in her arc is she’s never actually felt God the way Becky has, that was something that was on her mind even before Toedad happened, we don’t entirely know what happened over the timeskip but it seems that Mike’s death (which Carol just invalidated Joyce’s feelings on in this strip) was the final straw where Joyce finally admitted to herself she didn’t believe
tl;dr: she was always an Atheist she was just in denial about it
Nobody can literally “feel” an imaginary entity. The test for atheism can’t be that, unless you’re claiming every non-delusional religious person is an atheist because they don’t think they have first hand experience of “God”.
Strategy wise it would have been better not to admit the atheism, but on the other hand Carol might still go through her horrible decision so it strategy won’t matter…