Raised S. Baptist. It didn’t really take. Joined PCA at 26, became a Deacon. Was a solid Fundy for 20 years. Finally got tired of cognitive dissonance, mainly due to getting to know a young gay fellow (friend of my daughter). We left the church a year later. Now when I encounter the mindset I used to espouse, it just makes me mad. And sad for the time I wasted.
Aaaaa yeah! It’s terrifying to have people quote the bible with you with an expectation that you have any clue what they’re talking about every time you do anything that doesn’t align with a specific teaching, I hate it it’s so scary I don’t want to study the Christian Bible. Even people who are atheist still use those teachings as the basis of morality a lot of the time and literally get angry when I can’t recite a bible verse from memory because I don’t want to study the bible like???? Hello?????! I’m not even a good Torah student like come on please no. No thank you.
Gotta say being raised Catholic is good for both knowing the Bible and turning people into atheists, If only the constant guilt could leave with the belief.
I see the bible like a song of ice and fire except you’re supposed to take some lessons from it. Like don’t eat high cholesterol meat or fuck your dad, capitalists are evil and you should whip them with whatever you have on hand
It’s less a lesson of “don’t fuck your dad” and more a lesson of “haha, these people we don’t like are the result of people fucking their dad, what losers!”
Really, knowing it inside and out contributes a lot to being able to say you know it’s not true. After 30 years of being a Christian I can definitely say I’m very sure it isn’t true. I really don’t think Islam is true either, but don’t feel I have the requisite knowledge to make a strong case for that claim.
No it’s totally the same, being angry and emotional means you’re wrong. It’s very different from being perfectly calm and rational and definitely not emotional the way Carol is being.
What is with the demon Winston Churchill emote? I’ve been trying to decode it for days and the best I can come up with is that it maybe stands for “Peace Out, Satan”? Its creative and cool, I just can’t quite crack this encryption. TELL ME YOUR SECRETS!!!
It’s funny cuz even as a kid I just never really believed it. Just never really believed it. It was like Santa Claus. I just didn’t really see much of a reason to believe.
I’ve always been an atheist and didn’t have any religious education/indoctrination growing up, yet I suspect I probably still know the bible better than the average Christian.
I love seeing the replies that say “Yeah, I’m an atheist/the athiests I know became one bc of knowing the bible so well” bc that is exactly what happened to me, that book sucks.
I mean, the book itself isn’t completely awful if you don’t take it literally. Has some interesting fables, a few good moral lessons. Though the main character seems to be flawed to the point that he is often the villain of the story: throwing juvenile tantrums when things don’t go his way, even though he is supposedly the one who arranged for it to go that way in the first place. His son seemed to be a pretty cool guy, though, and tried to make up for a lot of his father’s mistakes.
If you think about it, the bible seems to be a bit of an allegory for Star Wars. Man who was supposed to be this super-powerful good guy ends up getting too self-involved, does some awful things, but then his son comes along and fights the good fight. Tries to teach others to be good, but in the end, the son fails with the proceeding generations and his student(s) start doing bad things again because they prefer the violent messages of his father to what the son was trying to teach.
Yep, I have found the Bible much more interesting and compelling after realizing it looked nothing like the literal word of God and a lot like a lot of different human’s idea about what God is like. It really is fascinating as a piece of literature and historical record.
I’m also now envisioning Darth Vader apologists trying to explain why really he probably knew how everything would turn out due to his power with the force and his actions must have been the best possible ones he could take for everyone since we know he is all good.
Experienced something similar myself. When I told my mom that I wasn’t Christian (more of a non-Christian agnost), she informed me that since I was baptized and had my first communion, I would always be Christian. According to her, I’m going to heaven whether I like it or not…
She doesn’t know her Bible very well, then. I can think of two verses quickly: the one about “if you put your hand on the plow and turn back, you’re not fit to enter the kingdom of Heaven” and the one about blaspheming against the Holy Spirit being an unforgivable sin.
What counts as blasphemy, anyway? Like, if I call their god a fag, does that count and disqualify me from going to cloud-land? Or does me being one myself cancel that out? It’s a (semi-)genuine question.
There’s a lot of debate around what actually counts as “blaspheming against the Spirit”. The most reasonable definition I remember hearing in my Christianing days was attributing the works of Satan to God (and really meaning it, not just talking out of your ass).
It’s kinda amusing to me that the author included all sorts of examples of blasphemy. Without them, the article would be vague and bland, but with them . . .
At first, they seem kinda weaksauce — “God is cruel and unjust” (really? The plain truth is blasphemous?).
But the last paragraph has a more salty example: “Jesus Christ was a bastard and his mother was a whore”. Maybe you could win bar bets with that – “Does the Catholic Encyclopedia have that . . . “; then bring up that page.
With many parents, your children are always children and you relate to them as such, instead of as adults. I don’t think my dad saw me as an adult until i was 28, when i won my first argument with him (i needed to buy a car for work, and i issued the ultimatum: help me shop for a used car or not, either way i’m getting one! and he did 🙂 ).
Yup. Just wanted to add *people with agency. A lot of the problems we see are the result of adults acting like children aren’t individual people with their own volition.
Well atleast Carol reacting with denial means she’s less likely to do something drastic? Always aggravating to have your beliefs dismissed and made to feel like getting angry over that reaction makes the other person “win” either way.
yep, same here. I’m fortunate that as I got older they’ve gotten better (from me having to force the issue) but it definitely still happens and drives me and my siblings bonkers
Carol’s M.O. was always to take potshots and get out quickly. She sucks for a number of reasons but is not “confrontational” in the same way that someone like Toedad was.
The idea of Atheist knowing the Bible inside and out yet still being an Atheist would probably be mind blowing for an old school religious nut who spent a good chunk of her adult years close off inside close fundie community.
But not impossible, I bet Dorothy knows more about the Bible than even Carol. I know people where Christians for 40 years of their life and spent every morning and night reading scripture but had no idea what I was talking about when I told them that according to “Numbers” the Bible is pro abortion.
I would not bet that Dorothy knows more about the Bible than Carol. She isn’t ex-Christian, she was raised areligiously.
I get the sentiment of “people who understand the Bible tend to not actually be Christian” but the implication that “people who are not Christian know the Bible” gives me the ick. Not everyone reads the Bible. Many of us don’t ever feel inclined to study Christian theology. And it is weird to imply that some level of involvement in Christian study is the default for non-Christians.
Yes, definitely (and it sucks), but not as much as a fundie knows. I don’t want to learn anything extra about Christianity, that I am not already forced to learn by living in this culture. And as such I certainly know less than a fundie
I don’t think Dorothy probably knows that much about the Bible. I think it’s the apostasy experience that makes US atheists more likely to know about religions.
Have we ever actually established the Browns are against abortion? Regardless, the traditional objection to abortion is extrabiblical, and that passage isn’t generally interpreted to apply to post-Hellenic Christians. (The traditional claim is that there was a tradition around Paul’s time – not sure how true it is – that he only passed down the laws to the Greeks that applied to Gentiles, and this included what in Greek is “porneia,” traditionally translated as “aryiot,” or “sexual immorality.”)
(I should state that I’m a lapsus, just an extremely obnoxious one.)
It’s been pointed out endless times that “most Christians used to be against abortion until before the Big Mac” or whatever. But even then, far gone, I can’t help but think that meant THOSE “Christians”…
Southern Baptists christians used to view the “pro-life” position as part of Catholic politics until the republicans decided to recruit them in the 70s. As the quote says, their anti-abortion crusade is younger than the Happy Meal.
Being anti-abortion was chosen as the defining issue for white Evangelical Christians in the 1970s once being pro-segregation was no longer a political winner.
I suspect that a lot of fundie Christian types who have read the Bible and can quote certain passages from memory never really bothered to think about what they read and what it actually means.
Many – not all, but many – fundamentalist churches gently discourage their flocks from reading the Bible straight through, all while claiming they do the opposite.
Instead, congregants find themselves reading careful study guides that steer them towards the correct interpretations of verses, even if those verses had to be cherrypicked into submission.
However, there are other fundamentalists who do make a point of reading the Bible cover to cover, with or without a guide.
Instead I’m just gonna say I agree with what Joe said 6 pages ago. Carol does look good for 60. She’s a shitty person but she’s got (what I can only assume) to be some nice curves.
Something I’ve heard before from Penn Jillete and others. The quickest way to stop believing in the bible is to read the bible. Really read it and notice the contradictions and nonsense.
“Take some time and put the Bible on your summer reading list. Try and stick with it cover to cover. Not because it teaches history, we’ve shown you it doesn’t. Read it because you’ll see for yourself what the Bible is all about, it sure isn’t great literature. If it were published as fiction, no reviewer would give it a passing grade. There are some vivid scenes and some quotable phrases, but there’s no plot, no structure, there’s a tremendous amount of filler and the characters are… painfully one-dimensional. Whatever you do, *don’t* read the Bible for a moral code. It advocates prejudice, cruelty, superstition and murder. Read it because we need more atheists, and nothing will get you there faster than reading the damn Bible.” — Penn Jillette
Yeah. Choosing to lay the fundament on sola scriptura was always a really bad idea. Like, I understand why so many German nobles went for it, since it means they got more autonomy, but honestly, it’s such a dumb idea that only a priest who’d spent their entire scholarly life immersed in the damn thing could have thought it was a good idea.
The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible.
-Mark Twain (maybe, probably not, it’s generally attributed to him but I can’t find any sources to confirm it and a lot of shit he didn’t say gets attributed to him so 🤷.)
The one I know to has said this is Penn, but you know, some people don’t like him because he can get a little right-wing sometimes, especially on global warming.
For the record, Penn reversed course on climate change specifically almost a decade ago, and dropped the whole libertarian thing like a hot rock when the pandemic hit.
Lady, I’m an Atheist. I’ve read the entire Bible in four translations (including the Vulgate with Apocrypha) plus the entire New Testament in Greek. I’ve also read English translations of the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita. I’m saying this not to brag (well, not much) but as an explanation of WHY I’m an atheist. Oh, sure readings in physics, biology, history, and philosophy also helped guide me, but the readings in holy books were the deciding factor.
Hate to be the devil’s advocate here, so to speak, but this is not an entirely unreasonable conclusion with the amount of information Carol has access to. We the audience know a lot more about Joyce’s struggles here than Carol does. We know that her interest in the bible was more intellectual (“autistic hyperfocus”, if we have to be infantilising and ableist about it) than “spiritual”.
Neither Joyce nor Carol were ever True Believers. Carol’s beholden to her criminal organisation that uses the Bible to sort its essentially economic and political agenda, while Joyce saw the Bible as an organisation system for her own ideas, which happened to be more sincerely well-intended but she was essentially doing the same thing as Carol. The difference is, to Joyce this constitutes non-belief, while Carol’s well aware she’s doing this yet still considers herself a believer. If Joyce isn’t a True Believer, neither is Carol, either they both are, or neither of them are, and if a pissed off high school freshman throws something like that at you, you don’t reorganise your entire life based around it in most cases.
Carol’s wrong about a lot of things, including this, I guess, but while she’s morally in the wrong here she’s not really entirely incorrect.
Tell that to Becky, who’s repeatedly highlighted the differences between her and Joyce’s modes of religiosity. I have my understanding of what constitutes sincere religiosity and I don’t think Joyce, now or earlier in the strip, fits the bill. This is my reading of Joyce’s character and it’s not here to conform to anyone else’s ideas.
Ok… it’s also something people say when they’re analysing complex characters in a long-running comic about religious conflict and conversion. You don’t have to agree with my analysis.
And there’s something to be said I think about how low-res way I put that analysis, but I also think it has to be borne in mind that 1. this is a comments section on a website, and my comment is already on the longer side, and 2. it’s kinda on you to hold back your own emotional reaction if you come in to curse me out over it, that’s too much, it’s a comic strip, it’s a cartoon.
This is hilarious. “I have no responsibility to avoid upsetting people for no reason, but they have a responsibility to not get upset at me” is basically the same as what you said. It’s like, spooky how close those are. It’s also how loudmouths justify saying whatever they want.
Bryy: Never met Willis, so I can’t really comment on his journey. Other than that, it occurs to me that zealots aren’t always true believers since many have underlying reasons for their actions that have little to do with what they’re worshiping. I was a zealot when I was young. (I wasn’t evil, just really messed up.) Years later, a therapist (who, looking back, I think was probably more than a bit annoyed with me) posited that what I was going through at the time was basically a very dysfunctional response to my parents divorce. I suppose it’s possible. Whatever. I’m not sure why I was on the path I was on, but I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t have much to do with it.
Sorry to ramble. I must be feeling self indulgent this morning.
Anyway, what I meant by “true believer” is that Carol is 100% aware that religion is a tool used to control others. She willingly plays into this (selling her house for money to give the church) and in return she has a spot on the hierarchy and some license to control and manipulate others in her own right. She has a mafia “family” attitude to the whole exercise. Joyce had this same basic idea of control and hierarchy, with the exception that 1. she adhered more closely to scriptural authority than the church did and 2. she was fairly naive as to the real-world implications of this. When Joyce realised the real-world activities the church got up to, it was that, rather than the weakness of their adherence to scriptural authority, that led her to discard Christianity and what it meant to her, since she saw herself as a faithful and inoffensive upholder of scriptural authority.
By contrast, the McIntyres are completely sincere in the whole thing, they’re emotionally-driven and don’t look at any of the implications too hard. It’s up there with the other things they know about the world and any tenet can be weighed and discarded. Ross had zero selfish motive at all, he was after neither material gain nor any kind of protection. He was just gullible.
Every other comment in this section is about how she’s using religion to control Joyce literally right now. She knows what she’s doing. She’s an adult in her 50’s.
I didn’t say they were good. Just that they weren’t selfish. He 100% expected to be dead by the end of everything, and that’s not what a selfish person does.
It is when that selfish person believes he will go to a amazing paradise for all eternity and that he will be treated as a martyr by those that share his beliefs
That may have factored into his decision-making, but he didn’t mention it, even when he was specifically talking about how he was willing to die “for” Becky. I think from the tone of the conversation it was very clear he regarded it as a sacrifice.
I think it’s fairer to say he would “actually” be a martyr rather than to say that he wanted to be regarded as a martyr by others and to me there’s an important distinction.
Bruno: While I agree with your descriptions of her actions and her church, when you say that “Carol is 100% aware that religion is a tool used to control others” I think you’re giving her waaaaaayyyy to much credit for self awareness.
The lack of self-awareness is that she’s unaware that there’s anyone who doesn’t see things the same way she does. But she 100% sees herself as a part of a structure, and gets upset with others for not fulfilling what she sees as their obligation towards it.
I would say that Ross had a very selfish motive. He wanted his daughter back, that is to say his image of his daughter, at any cost. He wanted his old life back.
And may I say that real Christians would have given him real help. Ross was a man sick with grief, to the point that his judgment was drowned in it. His congregation shouldn’t have cheered and supported his sins. They should have gotten him connected with counseling, and perhaps a psychiatrist. They should not have used him as a prop in their bizarre heroic fantasy. What they did was not love.
And? That doesn’t make it not selfishly motivated. Suicide threats can be a manipulation tool and in his case, he used it to get Becky in the car so he could “Get his daughter back”.
Satan is literally an advocate. His entire job is to be a lawyer. That’s what Satan IS. (do not confuse with Lucifer, a character from a different myhtology)
yes and no. current mythology/theology, the same.
Looking at how the religions developed over time, different.
The name Lucifer comes from sloppy translation. It comes from what they called the planet Venus, and it was translated from Hebrew into Greek, and then into Latin, but then stopped being translated. It’s not a name, it’s an honorific title, being used ironically to taunt the death of a Babylonian king (in Isaiah).
Satan is a character in the framing story of Job. Judaism is adapted from the regional polytheism, and other gods were either merged into the main god or demoted to angels. Satan is a title that means “adversary”, like the angel/minor god of justice whose job it is to challenge people/gods to keep them honest. It’s like a court appointed position.
You didn’t bring it up, but the serpent from the garden of eden is a distinct third character. None of them were originally a minor god of evil, as Satan/the Devil/Lucifer is in Christianity or Islam.
She doesn’t say that Ross was right, just that they stand by their own, whether or not he was right has nothing to do with it and doesn’t come up. She wants that stability for herself, and so she willingly participates and makes sacrifices for a church that stands by its own, because that’s the main thing she believes in.
“Our church is more important than anything or anyone.”
It isn’t about God for Carol.
Memorising the entire Bible also doesn’t have anything to do with belief in God. It’s not supporting evidence for belief in God unless Carol is redefining “belief in God” to mean “allegiance to the church”, an allegiance which Joyce demonstrates with her wealth of Biblical knowledge, her insistence on detail, etc, which all re-enforces the church’s ideological pretext for its own existence.
“Don’t you embarrass me! Don’t do this in public!”
It’s something Hank absolutely doesn’t endorse or sympathise with, but there’s no question at all that Carol regards it as a betrayal, because it’s directly at odds with her Mafia ethos I’m describing.
This is the thing Carol is not self-aware about and it’s why she doesn’t recognise Joyce’s atheism: because by Carol’s criteria, right or wrong has nothing to do with it, belief is only tangentially related, you’re a Christian so you can be a part of the Church that stands by its own, and Joyce’s paid remarkable service to that church’s operation and demonstrated a great deal of enthusiasm for it historically. Since that is *also* why Carol considers *herself* a Christian, even a direct profession of disbelief is not going to be enough to excommunicate Joyce. Because to Carol, it’s about the church. And there are holes in this, as Joyce has pointed out, but it’s better to stay on a ship than to jump overboard, even if there’s a hole in the sail.
Carol is never, ever going to leave the church over a moral outrage at its actions, and she won’t understand it that Joyce is, because Carol is not a moral thinker and it’s never occurred to her that someone else would be.
I don’t think Joyce really believed in God so much as she believed in ultimate authority, and when the people in her life who represented that failed her, then her belief system failed her as well. Carol, similarly, believes in structure above all else.
Youre gonna feel SO STUPID once I show myself as the Biggest Believer by getting the entire box set of the scripture on DVD and cassette, getting every Bible variant in existence, hundred percenting ‘Bible Adventures’ for the Nintendo Entertainment System, and having sex with Jesus Christ himself
[Performatively Macho Voice] Yeah but if I was there, I woulda knocked that old lady senseless. Just really busted her up, a proper sock to the kisser, as it were. I’d be such a strong buff cool person in that situation, beating up that old lady. Why, I’d bop ‘er straight to the moon, I’d bust up every bone in her old withering body. Then I’d go drink a couple brewskis at once and bang like 10 hot chicks in my huge-ass monster truck while I eat a big raw steak with my bare hands. After I was physically violent with the old lady, I mean. [/macho]
I remember when I became an atheist I was like, 20. And then I found out later that my parents were never actually religious in the first place, they just went to church because my dad was working at a catholic school and it helped him avoid any negative attention from the more fundamentalist staff members. Not too smart of him to keep that from his kids, which he did acknowledge and apologize for years later.
I’m just glad that the church we went to wasn’t fundamentalist itself or else that whole deal would have done a lot more emotional damage. As it stands the church was actually pretty chill about everything, but they made me take those same fundamentalist teachers my dad was playing it safe with far more seriously than I should have. So I still took some bad hits to my mental health from the ordeal.
I’ve read a few blogs of people commenting on chick tracts, and one thing that they always remark on is the persistent narrative that atheists clearly just haven’t read the Bible. I always wondered where that explanation came from.
The unstated function of proselytizing is to get the target to react negatively, so the kid (or adult) trying to hand out tracts feels ostracized from the public and emotionally dependent on the church. It’s not really for other people to read. It’s for repressing doubts more than recruiting.
And none of them ever stop to think that maybe showing up at the crack of noon on a work day, driving an unmarked black SUV with tinted windows, dressed like some sort of official-type person, miiiiiiiiiiight just slightly make somebody react in a negative way.
Hence the script that requires the target to be some sort of blank slate.
“Gosh, who is this Jesus person that you speak of?”
“I had no idea about any of this!”
These are frequent lines in Chick tracts and training materials, and are things that no one has said for probably five hundred years. But they are what young white Evangelicals are trained to expect.
And yep, it is not a flaw in the recruitment method, but a deliberate feature to ensure that the young Evangelical’s experience with “the world” is one of hostility, so that they will stay in the Bubble.
I’ve long felt that that is perhaps the weirdest fantasy of all. If I were told to find some people who had never heard of Christianity, I would have no idea where to look. (Probably goes for any other major religion, but I don’t know their missionary practices well at all.)
I almost feel sorry for them for being deliberately sabotaged like that. And then they pull up in their black government helicopters and start throwing pamphlets at me.
My religion is not arranged about what you personally believe.
It has always stunned me that you can entirely stop being a Christian by changing your mind.
Most of them. This notion of belief is nigh-exclusively Protestant Christian, and otherwise limited to religious movements that are the result of direct, recent, and profound interaction with evangelical Protestantism.
The tricky part about that mind-changing thing is, you can also become a Christian that way. Like, somehow people go from being 40000% sure they’re completely Gosh-free, and then something will happen and they’re BOOM suddenly the biggest thumper of Bibles since the previous biggest.
You only believe what you cannot know. I might have read that on a DOA comment thread the first time but it makes logical sense.
I believe there’s no god, even though it’s impossible to know for sure. Some folk will say that makes me agnostic but I function as atheist.
To say you believe in Newton’s laws or the existence of the sun is a common but different use of the verb. There must be a word that means “I think this is true based on strong evidence including a verified predictive model” but I just woke up and can’t think of it now.
Maybe I’m speculating too much, but maybe repeated incidents of things like the Spanish Inquisition, where even if someone stops thinking themselves as Jewish, they’re still treated as Jewish by antisemites, has something to do with it.
Because for most of the religions I can think of, if someone stops thinking themselves as a member of that religion, they aren’t that religion anymore.
When I was growing up, I was told to use two spaces after a period, as Joyce’s dialogue does above. Now hardly anyone does, and even though I am in my typing, it won’t show up in the format. When I was learning the Internet, I was told that was a technical limitation, but now everyone’s insisting to me it was always the case.
I still don’t understand the “two spaces after a period” thing. Is it just to create a little extra distance between sentences, or is there some other reason?
It improves readability in text that is displayed with a single-space font. Like an old typewriter. People can get quite agitated about it for some reason.
Two spaces after a period is a fixed font typewriting thing. Computer fonts adjust the size of a space slightly to fit the justification and prevent words from being hyphenated. Kerning. Widows and orphans. All automatic in wysiwyg world. Unless you’re using InDesign or similar software it’s invisible.
When I was first learning to use a Mac, I resented this feature so much that I went out of my way to hyphenate words at the end of a sentence. The Mac got the last laugh when I tried to rewrite a section.
Page layout is a dying art. You can learn a lot of tricks from old computing books, and using a little creativity to stretch that essay out to fill the last half a page without resorting to Kronk-like repetition.
Ohhhhhh, that read as “N-spacers” as in “an undetermined number N of spaces”. I think the typographical lengths are usually written in English as “en” and “em”.
It’s always interesting when the atheism topic comes up because I honestly feel like I’m in the minority of people who didn’t have a bad experience with Christianity or anything. I keep getting people who tell me to read the bible but that book is long as fuck and there’s not even any pictures.
This is funny to me because in my experience, it’s actually kids who care about the difference in terminology. I guess also sometimes teachers who want kids to be able to read them in school (though they could also be pushing back on the negative associations with “comic books” they’re responding to).
Needs ASCII art in Song of Songs, to accompany “Wake up, North Wind. South Wind, blow on my garden; fill the air with fragrance. Let my lover come to his garden and eat the best of its fruits.”
For me, it’s frustrating to be told over and over “You wouldn’t be a Christian if you had actually read the Bible” and my years of study and degree in religious studies are apparently not real?
Now, studying the Bible certainly meant that I have a different view of it than your typical Evangelical, but that’s why I am a Quaker rather than an Evangelical. My university’s historical and sociological approach meant that I approached the Bible from a very different angle than self-proclaimed “literalists” (who are anything but) with an understanding of how the many books of the Bible reflected the people and time of their writing/compiling/translation rather than being the Divinely Dictated, Unchanging Word of God.
Studying and working to understand the Bible does not automatically lead to atheism, and I get pretty tired of people insisting that it does because that was their experience.
Personal experience is compelling. Many people who get through a case of covid with ‘mild effects’ (so far as they know) sort of harbor the belief that it was all overblown. Millions dead? Hey, I got it and I was fine.
So a LOT of people have read the bible carefully and became atheists (raises hand) and the same dynamic is in play. They generalize their experience. My horizon is the edge of the Earth, etc.
It would be more accurate to say reading the bible undermines fundamentalism. Maybe. I haven’t done a formal study.
I remind myself how obnoxious it was when I was still a Christian, when a former Christian presumed I would follow the exact same path he did. It’s condescending. He wasn’t entirely wrong, but there are other paths.
So if I were to frustrate you, I hope it would at least not be in the same tedious way.
Also, I knew a guy who went to D school, and he said about a third of the people there became atheists. So not automatically, but there is some correlation, and it’s not just Biblical literalists (I wasn’t a literalist).
I’m fascinated by the comments that say Carol is 100% aware that she’s manipulating her daughter and possibly emotionally abusing her, and that she’s also aware of the power hierarchy at her church and playing directly into it.
To me it’s entirely possible and I even consider it more likely that Carol has zero self awarenesses. This woman is not the introspective type. She talks like this to Joyce because she doesn’t think about Joyce’s agency as a person. She sold her (half?) of the of house and gave the proceeds to her church because her pastor said this was needed and she did not stop to think about the implications or consequences.
This is the same church that produced Ross, a certified moron who tried to kidnap his daughter in the broad sober daylight in front of witnesses; and then months later committed more serious crimes following a man who never fully explained his plans or motives but did imply he was the same denomination of Christian. Ross never, for a single second, stopped think ahead long enough to even plan successful crimes; he assumed the hand of god would guide him I suppose. Carol was his friend and admired him after the failed kidnapping. She most likely has a very similar mindset
all of this to say that yes, both of them are shitty parents who abuse their children, but I don’t think they even realize it. Carol is not trying to whittle down Joyce’s self esteem and confidence (like Blaine did to Amber), but she raised her family in an environment where that is likely to happen; and now she’s trying to maintain that status quo
It’s my impression that, in religious environments such as hers, self-awareness is strongly deprecated and personal agency systematically denied. Which is hilarious because, then, who is doing the denying, and to whom is he speaking?
See I’ve had this talk myself. The last time was only yesterday. The one that gets to a point where you have to ask “do you want to try having an adult conversation with me, or do you want to rattle off a bunch of assumptions you have about me? Because you don’t need me to be here for the second one.”
[tangent] I get a weird feeling when I read “fundamentalism” being used this way. My wife says she’s a fundamentalist, but she’s not insane, clueless or power-mad. Terms like “fundamentalist” and “evangelical” have been stolen right under our noses. It makes me angry.
(Not at you, Allandrel, or anyone else here. At the perpetrators. Someday I’ll work out effective action to redress their crimes.)
That’s how those groups work: they usurp established verbiage to make themselves sound more legitimate and dismantle the identities of groups they oppose.
I don’t know the bible or torah memorized back to back but the grossness and cultishness of the religious people around me definitely made me leave that whole thing behind me, especially when my parents stopped consistently pushing me towards it as a teen and ESPECIALLY after I realized I’m gay lol
I don’t know. I suspect that kind of memorizing chapter and verse approach fits well with fundamentalism. You learn it that way so you can spit back appropriate bible verses on cue, not because you’ve thought deeply about the meanings.
If Carol is selling the house and giving the money to the church, I’m not quite sure she’s the one funding Joyce’s college. From what we’ve seen of her and what I know of fundamentalists like her, I doubt she has a job outside of the home or at least not one that pays a whole lot (maybe working for a Christian non-profit sort of thing). My guess is that Joyce’s father was the main or sole breadwinner and is probably the one helping Joyce afford college (Joyce very likely also has student loans) and he’s almost certainly paying alimony to Carol and since she also got ownership of the house, he’s probably doing well. Not a rich man, but probably an upper-middle-class type.
The divorce actually took that weapon away from her. All she could do is get herself out of whatever she co-signed. If Hank is willing to shoulder the debt himself, Joyce can still attend.
I wonder what it would take to totally tip Carol over the edge?
“Mom, I’m a lesbian” …
“Mom, I’m a Hare Krishna” …
“Mom, I’m a MAGA” …
“Mom, I’m taking up the oboe” …
Something’s gotta work here.
I really do get incredulous about the MASSIVE egos on religious people who literally claim to be mind readers. Of course they look like the biggest idiots since they say things you know to be untrue with such undeserved confidence
Carol isn’t doing this as gaslighting or being manipulative. Or, she IS, but she’s not doing it intentionally. See, what Joyce is saying to her is something that is completely against how she sees the world. Her child saying she doesn’t believe in God and is an atheist is just not something that is possible in her reality. So she rejects it as being lashing out or a phase or a youthful rebellion.
She also is doing that thing all parents do where they will always see their children as children to some extent. Not saying they will never treat their kids as adults, but there on some level they will always see the little kid that they raised and view what they say or do in that context.
Honestly, the people who’ve read the Bible the most seem to be the most likely to deconvert. There’s some fucked-up shit in there sometimes. (I don’t mean this with any offense to the progressive Christians who decide “fuck that” and follow the good stuff like “love your neighbor.” Some of my favorite people are progressive Christians, who I have more in common with than some kinds of atheists.)
Also, another instance of Carol reminding me of my mom to an uncomfy (but cathartic) degree. Istg, some parents form their mental image of you when you’re like 5 and refuse to let that image change in any way as you grow and change. You tell them you’re queer? “No, you’re not.” You question their religious beliefs? “No, you don’t.” You try to exert any form of autonomy or boundaries? “No.” I get that Carol’s going through a rough time (mind, it’s a hell of her own making) but fuck her, Joyce deserves to lash out at her right now.
I think this is a stereotype that doesn’t remotely hold true. Especially for those who actually hold to the antiestablishment and incredibly anti-fundamentalist views of the New Testament.
Atheism certainly doesn’t require faith, it’s the default position for just about anything. We are all born as atheists and even monotheists are atheists except for the one god they believe in. People get confused about atheism and assume it’s a stronger statement that it actually. If you want a make a logically positive statement about the world then an example of that would be secular humanism, not atheism. The common example of this given is that you don’t need faith to not believe there is a teapot orbiting Mars.
“atheism is a faith” is a lie that religious people tell, often to repress their own doubts. would be great if agnostic atheists didn’t buy into it, because it comes across as trolling other agnostic atheists.
Agnostic does not refer directly to belief in God. It refers to your position on the question of God.
You can be:
An Agnostic Theist: I believe in a God, but don’t know which form it takes
A Gnostic Theist: I believe in God, and claim to know that it’s this specific version.
An Agnostic Atheist: I don’t believe in God, but I have no reason to think a god couldn’t exist should the evidence present itself.
A Gnostic Atheist: I don’t believe in God, and am certain there are no gods.
Most atheists are agnostic atheists. It’s the simplest position to take and is the default state humans are born in. Plus most of us are absolutely willing to admit that if we were presented with compelling evidence, we would have no problem believing in it. We may not worship it, as most gods are absolutely awful, deplorable beings that deserve 0 praise, but belief? Hell yeah, no problem.
Um, yeah. I feel like if you know the Christian bible really well, you’re even more likely to be an atheist. It seems most Christians don’t actually know their own book.
For me, knowing almost the entire bible didn’t turn myself an atheist. Instead, it got me disappointed and sad for the christians, even more those are around me.
Also, knowing the bible inside out and even *enjoying* religious beliefs as a child does NOT mean you will stay the same as an adult. i grew up that way, too. i believed all this to be real until i met atheists who weren’t the kind of terrible people my church had always warned me about.
Now, it’s hard to imagine how i could ever think this way.
But as a child? you are dependant on your parents’ love and support, so you aren’t exactly free to believe what you want to believe, unless maybe if your parents are doing a really great job at celebrating and supporting every choice you make for yourself without it having to be the choice the parent would have made.
Well I’m not an atheist because of that, but I have read a considerable portion of the bible, and if there was ever anything that could guarantee I’d never become religious, it was reading the bible.
some say carol is still walking and denying to this day. she was last spotted around the beach walking into the ocean muttering “She’ll grow out of it…” to herself. may she discover self-awareness on the seafloor…
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HEY, did you know you can know something inside and out AND think it’s all a sack of shit??
Keep your friends close, keep your fictional sky daddy CLOSER
as someone who was a christian for 19 years, the people i met who knew and understood the teachings of the bible the best were all atheists
“The road to atheism is littered with Bibles read cover to cover.” — Andrew Seidel
“Study one religion and they have you for life. Study two religions and you’re done in an hour.” — someone more clever than me
yeah there is good reason why i WAS a christian.
Yep, I even read different translations just to make sure. Still Pagan/Atheist; atheistic pagan?
Raised S. Baptist. It didn’t really take. Joined PCA at 26, became a Deacon. Was a solid Fundy for 20 years. Finally got tired of cognitive dissonance, mainly due to getting to know a young gay fellow (friend of my daughter). We left the church a year later. Now when I encounter the mindset I used to espouse, it just makes me mad. And sad for the time I wasted.
it’s actually a thing where Jews throughout have had to know the xtian bible better than xtians in order to defend themselves against them
Aaaaa yeah! It’s terrifying to have people quote the bible with you with an expectation that you have any clue what they’re talking about every time you do anything that doesn’t align with a specific teaching, I hate it it’s so scary I don’t want to study the Christian Bible. Even people who are atheist still use those teachings as the basis of morality a lot of the time and literally get angry when I can’t recite a bible verse from memory because I don’t want to study the bible like???? Hello?????! I’m not even a good Torah student like come on please no. No thank you.
You know?
The funny thing is Im pretty sure Carol wouldn’t be able to answer if Joyce were to quiz her on the bible.
So does that mean that Carol is an atheist? Because she hasn’t read her Good Book?
(Of course not. She’s arguing in bad faith)
I’d peg her as a MAGA hanger-on with Christian pretenses…
Gotta say being raised Catholic is good for both knowing the Bible and turning people into atheists, If only the constant guilt could leave with the belief.
When I was in my twenties an acquaintance told me she was Catholic and I immediately blurted out “oh–you mean like on purpose?”
I’ve come a long way toward figuring out tact since then. I haven’t been stabbed yet, anyway.
I see the bible like a song of ice and fire except you’re supposed to take some lessons from it. Like don’t eat high cholesterol meat or fuck your dad, capitalists are evil and you should whip them with whatever you have on hand
It’s less a lesson of “don’t fuck your dad” and more a lesson of “haha, these people we don’t like are the result of people fucking their dad, what losers!”
Like most Greek myths, really. “Hey, those Cretians, their queen slept with Zeus in the form of a bull and had a monster kid. How disgusting!”
Really, knowing it inside and out contributes a lot to being able to say you know it’s not true. After 30 years of being a Christian I can definitely say I’m very sure it isn’t true. I really don’t think Islam is true either, but don’t feel I have the requisite knowledge to make a strong case for that claim.
Lashing out because you’re an asshole is not the same as lashing out in a tantrum.
No it’s totally the same, being angry and emotional means you’re wrong. It’s very different from being perfectly calm and rational and definitely not emotional the way Carol is being.
Does panel 3 look oddly squat to anyone else?
Yeah, the proportions seem a bit off compared to normal
Nah, them’s some squat ladies. Joyce takes after her mother in that respect. Doesn’t help that Joe is our only other frame of reference.
[Bowl of oatmeal courtroom guy dot gif]
Nah people just have squat proportions in this universe. You can see it in the portraits
Is joe confused or did he loose an eyebrow again?
She became an atheist BECAUSE she knew the Bible’s contents so well.
How deliciously ironic, Carol!!! ✌️😈
What is with the demon Winston Churchill emote? I’ve been trying to decode it for days and the best I can come up with is that it maybe stands for “Peace Out, Satan”? Its creative and cool, I just can’t quite crack this encryption. TELL ME YOUR SECRETS!!!
The what?
it’s a reference to the Baphomet pose + The Binding of Isaac + I just love the peace sign face pattern LOL
Ohhhh… that’s cool. Thanks.
Sorry that should be: “Ohhh… I get it now. That is really cool. Thanks.”.
Someone’s in denial in this strip, but it’s not the one being accused of it.
The atheists I know (myself included) are atheists precisely *because* we had the bible drilled into us.
So I guess you could say the devil’s in the details?
It’s funny cuz even as a kid I just never really believed it. Just never really believed it. It was like Santa Claus. I just didn’t really see much of a reason to believe.
This was the progression of belief for most people I grew up around
I think I was about 6 when I learned the truth about Santa, and my reaction was basically “oh, that makes sense”.
The real Santa is the friends we made along the way.
frickin PERFECT True 🔥✌️😈🔥
I’ve always been an atheist and didn’t have any religious education/indoctrination growing up, yet I suspect I probably still know the bible better than the average Christian.
Ruth needs a Bat Signal
Surely Sarah is the one with a Bat Signal.
Does anyone really need it signalled? Carol is being very batty all on her own.
What would the shape in the middle of the searchlight be?
A nip bottle?
A couple of femurs crossed in an X?
The maple leaf from the middle of the Canadian flag?
Maybe should have called Sarah after all
It really is just in one ear and out the other with her, huh
I mean, the Bible clearly went in one eye and out the other, for Carol.
If your eye offends you, jam a Bible in it.
Only until she hears something that affirms her position.
It’s a shame in fiction that Joyce has this as her example of Christianity most prominent.
It’s evil that it is not an exaggeration of RL experiences for so many.
I love seeing the replies that say “Yeah, I’m an atheist/the athiests I know became one bc of knowing the bible so well” bc that is exactly what happened to me, that book sucks.
I mean, the book itself isn’t completely awful if you don’t take it literally. Has some interesting fables, a few good moral lessons. Though the main character seems to be flawed to the point that he is often the villain of the story: throwing juvenile tantrums when things don’t go his way, even though he is supposedly the one who arranged for it to go that way in the first place. His son seemed to be a pretty cool guy, though, and tried to make up for a lot of his father’s mistakes.
If you think about it, the bible seems to be a bit of an allegory for Star Wars. Man who was supposed to be this super-powerful good guy ends up getting too self-involved, does some awful things, but then his son comes along and fights the good fight. Tries to teach others to be good, but in the end, the son fails with the proceeding generations and his student(s) start doing bad things again because they prefer the violent messages of his father to what the son was trying to teach.
As a kid, I read it like a superhero comic book. That woman got turned into a pillar of salt! That guy moved the ocean! etc.
An old joke from science fiction fandom is that the Bible is an Ace Double Novel:
War God Of Israel
&
The Thing With Three Souls.
I’m imagining the pair of cover images, very cool
Oh my god. Brilliant take.
Yep, I have found the Bible much more interesting and compelling after realizing it looked nothing like the literal word of God and a lot like a lot of different human’s idea about what God is like. It really is fascinating as a piece of literature and historical record.
I’m also now envisioning Darth Vader apologists trying to explain why really he probably knew how everything would turn out due to his power with the force and his actions must have been the best possible ones he could take for everyone since we know he is all good.
Jeez. I don’t even really know what to add, just, jeez.
Yeah, I expected that. Carol won’t accept that Joyce doesn’t believe anymore, in part because she doesn’t see her as an adult with her own agency.
Experienced something similar myself. When I told my mom that I wasn’t Christian (more of a non-Christian agnost), she informed me that since I was baptized and had my first communion, I would always be Christian. According to her, I’m going to heaven whether I like it or not…
She doesn’t know her Bible very well, then. I can think of two verses quickly: the one about “if you put your hand on the plow and turn back, you’re not fit to enter the kingdom of Heaven” and the one about blaspheming against the Holy Spirit being an unforgivable sin.
What counts as blasphemy, anyway? Like, if I call their god a fag, does that count and disqualify me from going to cloud-land? Or does me being one myself cancel that out? It’s a (semi-)genuine question.
There’s a lot of debate around what actually counts as “blaspheming against the Spirit”. The most reasonable definition I remember hearing in my Christianing days was attributing the works of Satan to God (and really meaning it, not just talking out of your ass).
Gee, sounds like a few people are probably in a little bit of hot water then.
The short answer is “anything that might be conceivably an insult to God”; the long answer is here (Catholic Encyclopedia, topic Blasphemy):
https://web.archive.org/web/20110413020837/http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm
It’s kinda amusing to me that the author included all sorts of examples of blasphemy. Without them, the article would be vague and bland, but with them . . .
At first, they seem kinda weaksauce — “God is cruel and unjust” (really? The plain truth is blasphemous?).
But the last paragraph has a more salty example: “Jesus Christ was a bastard and his mother was a whore”. Maybe you could win bar bets with that – “Does the Catholic Encyclopedia have that . . . “; then bring up that page.
My parents used literally this exact line too. You’ll always be catholic; you’re just ‘not practicing.’
well maybe with enough lack of practice we can forget how to do it and rewrite the brain space for better things <3
With many parents, your children are always children and you relate to them as such, instead of as adults. I don’t think my dad saw me as an adult until i was 28, when i won my first argument with him (i needed to buy a car for work, and i issued the ultimatum: help me shop for a used car or not, either way i’m getting one! and he did 🙂 ).
Yup. Just wanted to add *people with agency. A lot of the problems we see are the result of adults acting like children aren’t individual people with their own volition.
Well atleast Carol reacting with denial means she’s less likely to do something drastic? Always aggravating to have your beliefs dismissed and made to feel like getting angry over that reaction makes the other person “win” either way.
I’m honestly surprised her reaction is to just leave.
growing up around these sorts of people, they love to just pretend things never happened. Ignore it and it’ll go away. it can be infuriating
my parents are like this. its a great method if you want your kids to be self-loathing and not tell you about anything.
yep, same here. I’m fortunate that as I got older they’ve gotten better (from me having to force the issue) but it definitely still happens and drives me and my siblings bonkers
Carol’s M.O. was always to take potshots and get out quickly. She sucks for a number of reasons but is not “confrontational” in the same way that someone like Toedad was.
Turn the other cheek. She just got her left and right slapped, so all that was left was to offer her rear and walk away.
The idea of Atheist knowing the Bible inside and out yet still being an Atheist would probably be mind blowing for an old school religious nut who spent a good chunk of her adult years close off inside close fundie community.
But not impossible, I bet Dorothy knows more about the Bible than even Carol. I know people where Christians for 40 years of their life and spent every morning and night reading scripture but had no idea what I was talking about when I told them that according to “Numbers” the Bible is pro abortion.
I would not bet that Dorothy knows more about the Bible than Carol. She isn’t ex-Christian, she was raised areligiously.
I get the sentiment of “people who understand the Bible tend to not actually be Christian” but the implication that “people who are not Christian know the Bible” gives me the ick. Not everyone reads the Bible. Many of us don’t ever feel inclined to study Christian theology. And it is weird to imply that some level of involvement in Christian study is the default for non-Christians.
Some level of knowledge of christianity is nearly unavoidable when you’re living in a christian culture full of christian privilege.
Yes, definitely (and it sucks), but not as much as a fundie knows. I don’t want to learn anything extra about Christianity, that I am not already forced to learn by living in this culture. And as such I certainly know less than a fundie
I don’t think Dorothy probably knows that much about the Bible. I think it’s the apostasy experience that makes US atheists more likely to know about religions.
Have we ever actually established the Browns are against abortion? Regardless, the traditional objection to abortion is extrabiblical, and that passage isn’t generally interpreted to apply to post-Hellenic Christians. (The traditional claim is that there was a tradition around Paul’s time – not sure how true it is – that he only passed down the laws to the Greeks that applied to Gentiles, and this included what in Greek is “porneia,” traditionally translated as “aryiot,” or “sexual immorality.”)
(I should state that I’m a lapsus, just an extremely obnoxious one.)
…arayot. Sorry.
“Have we ever actually established the Browns are against abortion?”
Dunno, but given their time, and locations in geography, politics, and religion, it would be very unusual for them not to be.
There are pro-choice Christians. But not pro-choice fundamentalist pro-Trump Christian Republicans in 2000s Indiana.
It’s been pointed out endless times that “most Christians used to be against abortion until before the Big Mac” or whatever. But even then, far gone, I can’t help but think that meant THOSE “Christians”…
Southern Baptists christians used to view the “pro-life” position as part of Catholic politics until the republicans decided to recruit them in the 70s. As the quote says, their anti-abortion crusade is younger than the Happy Meal.
Being anti-abortion was chosen as the defining issue for white Evangelical Christians in the 1970s once being pro-segregation was no longer a political winner.
They were carefully steered away from such verses by ‘study guides’
Well, there’s a reason that “reading” and “understanding” are such different words.
I suspect that a lot of fundie Christian types who have read the Bible and can quote certain passages from memory never really bothered to think about what they read and what it actually means.
I have seen quite a lot of evidence to support this. So much that I haven’t bothered to write any of it down, alas.
Many – not all, but many – fundamentalist churches gently discourage their flocks from reading the Bible straight through, all while claiming they do the opposite.
Instead, congregants find themselves reading careful study guides that steer them towards the correct interpretations of verses, even if those verses had to be cherrypicked into submission.
However, there are other fundamentalists who do make a point of reading the Bible cover to cover, with or without a guide.
you cant argue with crazy
Y’know what. I’m not gonna touch this topic.
Instead I’m just gonna say I agree with what Joe said 6 pages ago. Carol does look good for 60. She’s a shitty person but she’s got (what I can only assume) to be some nice curves.
Something I’ve heard before from Penn Jillete and others. The quickest way to stop believing in the bible is to read the bible. Really read it and notice the contradictions and nonsense.
“Take some time and put the Bible on your summer reading list. Try and stick with it cover to cover. Not because it teaches history, we’ve shown you it doesn’t. Read it because you’ll see for yourself what the Bible is all about, it sure isn’t great literature. If it were published as fiction, no reviewer would give it a passing grade. There are some vivid scenes and some quotable phrases, but there’s no plot, no structure, there’s a tremendous amount of filler and the characters are… painfully one-dimensional. Whatever you do, *don’t* read the Bible for a moral code. It advocates prejudice, cruelty, superstition and murder. Read it because we need more atheists, and nothing will get you there faster than reading the damn Bible.” — Penn Jillette
Yeah. Choosing to lay the fundament on sola scriptura was always a really bad idea. Like, I understand why so many German nobles went for it, since it means they got more autonomy, but honestly, it’s such a dumb idea that only a priest who’d spent their entire scholarly life immersed in the damn thing could have thought it was a good idea.
A quote I heard somewhere:
Some Christians treat the Bible like a terms-of-use agreement—they just skip to the end and click I ACCEPT.
Thank you. I will use this.
That’s one way to make her leave
Just a little
Carol will most likely go to her church and double down on any and all of her beliefs after this.
To be honest Carol’s reaction was more underwhelming than what people expected.
People expected anger, but really considering how’s she’s been acting up to this point denial really isn’t surprising.
I think it’s a slow cook.
I suspect it’s really a question of how much power Carol actually believes she holds.
The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible.
-Mark Twain (maybe, probably not, it’s generally attributed to him but I can’t find any sources to confirm it and a lot of shit he didn’t say gets attributed to him so 🤷.)
The one I know to has said this is Penn, but you know, some people don’t like him because he can get a little right-wing sometimes, especially on global warming.
The idea goes back at least to Thomas Paine writing _The Age of Reason_ in 1794.
For the record, Penn reversed course on climate change specifically almost a decade ago, and dropped the whole libertarian thing like a hot rock when the pandemic hit.
Glakd to hear that, we recently rewatched a few episodes of Penn & Teller’s BullSh*t and the global warming episode did not age well…
Lady, I’m an Atheist. I’ve read the entire Bible in four translations (including the Vulgate with Apocrypha) plus the entire New Testament in Greek. I’ve also read English translations of the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita. I’m saying this not to brag (well, not much) but as an explanation of WHY I’m an atheist. Oh, sure readings in physics, biology, history, and philosophy also helped guide me, but the readings in holy books were the deciding factor.
at least she’s actually walking away instead of dragging joyce to get some ‘reeducation’ in a camp or so
Until she talks about this with people from the church and they convince her she needs to
Hate to be the devil’s advocate here, so to speak, but this is not an entirely unreasonable conclusion with the amount of information Carol has access to. We the audience know a lot more about Joyce’s struggles here than Carol does. We know that her interest in the bible was more intellectual (“autistic hyperfocus”, if we have to be infantilising and ableist about it) than “spiritual”.
Neither Joyce nor Carol were ever True Believers. Carol’s beholden to her criminal organisation that uses the Bible to sort its essentially economic and political agenda, while Joyce saw the Bible as an organisation system for her own ideas, which happened to be more sincerely well-intended but she was essentially doing the same thing as Carol. The difference is, to Joyce this constitutes non-belief, while Carol’s well aware she’s doing this yet still considers herself a believer. If Joyce isn’t a True Believer, neither is Carol, either they both are, or neither of them are, and if a pissed off high school freshman throws something like that at you, you don’t reorganise your entire life based around it in most cases.
Carol’s wrong about a lot of things, including this, I guess, but while she’s morally in the wrong here she’s not really entirely incorrect.
“Neither Joyce nor Carol were ever True Believers”
uh. stop right there. that’s pretty fucking offensive
Tell that to Becky, who’s repeatedly highlighted the differences between her and Joyce’s modes of religiosity. I have my understanding of what constitutes sincere religiosity and I don’t think Joyce, now or earlier in the strip, fits the bill. This is my reading of Joyce’s character and it’s not here to conform to anyone else’s ideas.
I should also mention that I think this is a good thing, and I relate.
“you were never a true believer” is bullshit bigots tell apostates. Fuck off, I didn’t torture myself emotionally for years on a lark.
Ok… it’s also something people say when they’re analysing complex characters in a long-running comic about religious conflict and conversion. You don’t have to agree with my analysis.
And there’s something to be said I think about how low-res way I put that analysis, but I also think it has to be borne in mind that 1. this is a comments section on a website, and my comment is already on the longer side, and 2. it’s kinda on you to hold back your own emotional reaction if you come in to curse me out over it, that’s too much, it’s a comic strip, it’s a cartoon.
This is hilarious. “I have no responsibility to avoid upsetting people for no reason, but they have a responsibility to not get upset at me” is basically the same as what you said. It’s like, spooky how close those are. It’s also how loudmouths justify saying whatever they want.
Yes, this exactly, but without being sarcastic about it.
I wasn’t being sarcastic, it really is hilarious. I lol’d out loud IRL in real life at how funny it was. What made you think it was sarcasm?
Bruno, you are actually delusional.
You are toxic AF, dudebro.
Also, you’re literally saying Willis was never a “true believer”. You’re literally brushing off religious zealotry.
Your autocorrect changes “Bruno” to “dudebro”? Mine just replaced “of” with “if” for no reason.
Bryy: Never met Willis, so I can’t really comment on his journey. Other than that, it occurs to me that zealots aren’t always true believers since many have underlying reasons for their actions that have little to do with what they’re worshiping. I was a zealot when I was young. (I wasn’t evil, just really messed up.) Years later, a therapist (who, looking back, I think was probably more than a bit annoyed with me) posited that what I was going through at the time was basically a very dysfunctional response to my parents divorce. I suppose it’s possible. Whatever. I’m not sure why I was on the path I was on, but I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t have much to do with it.
Sorry to ramble. I must be feeling self indulgent this morning.
Don’t make excuses.
sorry, Willis, for cussing like I did in your comments section.
Yeah, watch your fucking mouth, goddamn it.
na I’m being serious. if I want to tell someone to fuck off, I’ll need to make my own website with my own comments section or go to twitter.
I realise that apology was not directed at me, but I nonetheless appreciate it.
please stop trying to antagonize me
Okay. That was the exact opposite of my intention, but as far as I’m concerned, hatchet buried. Walking away now.
Long time no see, MrSmith.
Anyway, what I meant by “true believer” is that Carol is 100% aware that religion is a tool used to control others. She willingly plays into this (selling her house for money to give the church) and in return she has a spot on the hierarchy and some license to control and manipulate others in her own right. She has a mafia “family” attitude to the whole exercise. Joyce had this same basic idea of control and hierarchy, with the exception that 1. she adhered more closely to scriptural authority than the church did and 2. she was fairly naive as to the real-world implications of this. When Joyce realised the real-world activities the church got up to, it was that, rather than the weakness of their adherence to scriptural authority, that led her to discard Christianity and what it meant to her, since she saw herself as a faithful and inoffensive upholder of scriptural authority.
By contrast, the McIntyres are completely sincere in the whole thing, they’re emotionally-driven and don’t look at any of the implications too hard. It’s up there with the other things they know about the world and any tenet can be weighed and discarded. Ross had zero selfish motive at all, he was after neither material gain nor any kind of protection. He was just gullible.
“Carol is 100% aware that religion is a tool used to control others.”
NOPE.
Again: stop whitewashing how evil religion can be.
Every other comment in this section is about how she’s using religion to control Joyce literally right now. She knows what she’s doing. She’s an adult in her 50’s.
I wasn’t gonna comment today because it’s still cult stuff, but you’re just straight up telling lies now.
She’s in her 60s, get it right.
This time, I admit I stepped over the line. I admit I was wrong and apologise to all of those negatively affected.
Yeah, she is using her religion, but she also 1000% believes in it. She literally is leaving cause Joyce said she didn’t believe in God.
Also.
You in earnest wrote the Toedad had no selfish motives. Huh.
I didn’t say they were good. Just that they weren’t selfish. He 100% expected to be dead by the end of everything, and that’s not what a selfish person does.
It is when that selfish person believes he will go to a amazing paradise for all eternity and that he will be treated as a martyr by those that share his beliefs
DING DING DING.
That may have factored into his decision-making, but he didn’t mention it, even when he was specifically talking about how he was willing to die “for” Becky. I think from the tone of the conversation it was very clear he regarded it as a sacrifice.
I think it’s fairer to say he would “actually” be a martyr rather than to say that he wanted to be regarded as a martyr by others and to me there’s an important distinction.
Again, just my read on the character.
Wow, you’re going to be disappointed once you’ve met a statistically significant sample of adults in their 50s.
Wow.
People don’t automatically think things through. Not in ten years, not in fifty years, not in a hundred (Kissinger remains as stupid as ever).
Kissinger is not a stupid man. Kissinger is many things, he is not stupid.
He’s not dead yet either, which is a shame.
We all have our crosses to bear.
Bruno: While I agree with your descriptions of her actions and her church, when you say that “Carol is 100% aware that religion is a tool used to control others” I think you’re giving her waaaaaayyyy to much credit for self awareness.
The lack of self-awareness is that she’s unaware that there’s anyone who doesn’t see things the same way she does. But she 100% sees herself as a part of a structure, and gets upset with others for not fulfilling what she sees as their obligation towards it.
I would say that Ross had a very selfish motive. He wanted his daughter back, that is to say his image of his daughter, at any cost. He wanted his old life back.
And may I say that real Christians would have given him real help. Ross was a man sick with grief, to the point that his judgment was drowned in it. His congregation shouldn’t have cheered and supported his sins. They should have gotten him connected with counseling, and perhaps a psychiatrist. They should not have used him as a prop in their bizarre heroic fantasy. What they did was not love.
This was directly refuted in-text. He was basically attempting suicide-by-cop.
And? That doesn’t make it not selfishly motivated. Suicide threats can be a manipulation tool and in his case, he used it to get Becky in the car so he could “Get his daughter back”.
Devil’s advocate? Satan doln’t deserve affilation with your drivel. 😤
Thank you?
Cut the crap, we know it’s you BubbaFett. 🔥👁️🔥
Stop acting like people are agreeing with you in order to pick at them, please.
Stop giving me such easy bait.
Satan is literally an advocate. His entire job is to be a lawyer. That’s what Satan IS. (do not confuse with Lucifer, a character from a different myhtology)
Are they not the same guy? I always see Lucifer portrayed as basically the Wartortle to Satan’s Blastoise.
* The WARTORTLE TO SATAN’S BLASTOISE*
Thank you, that made my entire morning
yes and no. current mythology/theology, the same.
Looking at how the religions developed over time, different.
The name Lucifer comes from sloppy translation. It comes from what they called the planet Venus, and it was translated from Hebrew into Greek, and then into Latin, but then stopped being translated. It’s not a name, it’s an honorific title, being used ironically to taunt the death of a Babylonian king (in Isaiah).
Satan is a character in the framing story of Job. Judaism is adapted from the regional polytheism, and other gods were either merged into the main god or demoted to angels. Satan is a title that means “adversary”, like the angel/minor god of justice whose job it is to challenge people/gods to keep them honest. It’s like a court appointed position.
You didn’t bring it up, but the serpent from the garden of eden is a distinct third character. None of them were originally a minor god of evil, as Satan/the Devil/Lucifer is in Christianity or Islam.
As far as I can see, she’s completely unaware she’s doing this.
She has simply never thought about this.
I’m assuming Hank spelled it out for her at some point during the divorce. I can’t imagine it didn’t come up.
She spells out her ethos right here: “We stand by our own.”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/won/
She doesn’t say that Ross was right, just that they stand by their own, whether or not he was right has nothing to do with it and doesn’t come up. She wants that stability for herself, and so she willingly participates and makes sacrifices for a church that stands by its own, because that’s the main thing she believes in.
She says it again here just yesterday:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/raised/
“Our church is more important than anything or anyone.”
It isn’t about God for Carol.
Memorising the entire Bible also doesn’t have anything to do with belief in God. It’s not supporting evidence for belief in God unless Carol is redefining “belief in God” to mean “allegiance to the church”, an allegiance which Joyce demonstrates with her wealth of Biblical knowledge, her insistence on detail, etc, which all re-enforces the church’s ideological pretext for its own existence.
While I’m going in here, Carol pretty much explains her side of the divorce in this strip:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/04-is-a-song-forever/public/
“Don’t you embarrass me! Don’t do this in public!”
It’s something Hank absolutely doesn’t endorse or sympathise with, but there’s no question at all that Carol regards it as a betrayal, because it’s directly at odds with her Mafia ethos I’m describing.
This is the thing Carol is not self-aware about and it’s why she doesn’t recognise Joyce’s atheism: because by Carol’s criteria, right or wrong has nothing to do with it, belief is only tangentially related, you’re a Christian so you can be a part of the Church that stands by its own, and Joyce’s paid remarkable service to that church’s operation and demonstrated a great deal of enthusiasm for it historically. Since that is *also* why Carol considers *herself* a Christian, even a direct profession of disbelief is not going to be enough to excommunicate Joyce. Because to Carol, it’s about the church. And there are holes in this, as Joyce has pointed out, but it’s better to stay on a ship than to jump overboard, even if there’s a hole in the sail.
Carol is never, ever going to leave the church over a moral outrage at its actions, and she won’t understand it that Joyce is, because Carol is not a moral thinker and it’s never occurred to her that someone else would be.
There’s more than one model of true belief. Some are stable.
I don’t think Joyce really believed in God so much as she believed in ultimate authority, and when the people in her life who represented that failed her, then her belief system failed her as well. Carol, similarly, believes in structure above all else.
You are not the arbiter of who does and does not count as a True Believer.
Youre gonna feel SO STUPID once I show myself as the Biggest Believer by getting the entire box set of the scripture on DVD and cassette, getting every Bible variant in existence, hundred percenting ‘Bible Adventures’ for the Nintendo Entertainment System, and having sex with Jesus Christ himself
If you’re a Catholic, does sex with JC himself count as a foursome?
…hold up. I just noticed which of Joyce’s many sweaters she was wearing. Who wants to bet…?
Not 100% sure what you’re implying. Is this going to be another week that I have to explain that not every horizontal stripe pattern is a pride flag?
Tell Carol that.
Do you think we can get the red-hats to fly “American Pride” flags that are actually just the flag of The Netherlands?
she is thinking clearly and intentionally lashing out!
I’m just glad Joe didn’t hit the awful old woman.
[Performatively Macho Voice] Yeah but if I was there, I woulda knocked that old lady senseless. Just really busted her up, a proper sock to the kisser, as it were. I’d be such a strong buff cool person in that situation, beating up that old lady. Why, I’d bop ‘er straight to the moon, I’d bust up every bone in her old withering body. Then I’d go drink a couple brewskis at once and bang like 10 hot chicks in my huge-ass monster truck while I eat a big raw steak with my bare hands. After I was physically violent with the old lady, I mean. [/macho]
I mean sure, but Ruth would have suplexed her.
Boy oh boy am I ever having flashbacks to my early adulthood.
I remember when I became an atheist I was like, 20. And then I found out later that my parents were never actually religious in the first place, they just went to church because my dad was working at a catholic school and it helped him avoid any negative attention from the more fundamentalist staff members. Not too smart of him to keep that from his kids, which he did acknowledge and apologize for years later.
I’m just glad that the church we went to wasn’t fundamentalist itself or else that whole deal would have done a lot more emotional damage. As it stands the church was actually pretty chill about everything, but they made me take those same fundamentalist teachers my dad was playing it safe with far more seriously than I should have. So I still took some bad hits to my mental health from the ordeal.
I’ve read a few blogs of people commenting on chick tracts, and one thing that they always remark on is the persistent narrative that atheists clearly just haven’t read the Bible. I always wondered where that explanation came from.
The unstated function of proselytizing is to get the target to react negatively, so the kid (or adult) trying to hand out tracts feels ostracized from the public and emotionally dependent on the church. It’s not really for other people to read. It’s for repressing doubts more than recruiting.
And none of them ever stop to think that maybe showing up at the crack of noon on a work day, driving an unmarked black SUV with tinted windows, dressed like some sort of official-type person, miiiiiiiiiiight just slightly make somebody react in a negative way.
Hence the script that requires the target to be some sort of blank slate.
“Gosh, who is this Jesus person that you speak of?”
“I had no idea about any of this!”
These are frequent lines in Chick tracts and training materials, and are things that no one has said for probably five hundred years. But they are what young white Evangelicals are trained to expect.
And yep, it is not a flaw in the recruitment method, but a deliberate feature to ensure that the young Evangelical’s experience with “the world” is one of hostility, so that they will stay in the Bubble.
I’ve long felt that that is perhaps the weirdest fantasy of all. If I were told to find some people who had never heard of Christianity, I would have no idea where to look. (Probably goes for any other major religion, but I don’t know their missionary practices well at all.)
There’s one of the Andaman Islands, but the locals have strict border controls
I almost feel sorry for them for being deliberately sabotaged like that. And then they pull up in their black government helicopters and start throwing pamphlets at me.
Yeah, one of the core beliefs of fundamentalism is that people auto-believe once they read the Bible.
And somehow non-fundamentalist Christians who have read the Bible will also auto-believe if they read it after getting a quick fundie explanation.
My religion is not arranged about what you personally believe.
It has always stunned me that you can entirely stop being a Christian by changing your mind.
What religion doesn’t involve believing something?
Most of them. This notion of belief is nigh-exclusively Protestant Christian, and otherwise limited to religious movements that are the result of direct, recent, and profound interaction with evangelical Protestantism.
I don’t see how it’s not Catholic or Orthodox Christian, too. And while Islam has practices, belief/faith is important there.
The tricky part about that mind-changing thing is, you can also become a Christian that way. Like, somehow people go from being 40000% sure they’re completely Gosh-free, and then something will happen and they’re BOOM suddenly the biggest thumper of Bibles since the previous biggest.
Either one’s gotta be a trip, tbh.
You only believe what you cannot know. I might have read that on a DOA comment thread the first time but it makes logical sense.
I believe there’s no god, even though it’s impossible to know for sure. Some folk will say that makes me agnostic but I function as atheist.
To say you believe in Newton’s laws or the existence of the sun is a common but different use of the verb. There must be a word that means “I think this is true based on strong evidence including a verified predictive model” but I just woke up and can’t think of it now.
Indeed, if you dig deeply enough, I think you’ll find that the only things one can really know are all mathematics.
Maybe something like “I understand the Sun is real.”
“I find the model of the universe that includes the Sun to have greater predictive power.”
there is a rite to cancel baptism
#BaptismIsOverParty
Maybe I’m speculating too much, but maybe repeated incidents of things like the Spanish Inquisition, where even if someone stops thinking themselves as Jewish, they’re still treated as Jewish by antisemites, has something to do with it.
Because for most of the religions I can think of, if someone stops thinking themselves as a member of that religion, they aren’t that religion anymore.
Carol will be able to deny this for a loooooooooooooooooong time. If that’s what works best for her. Because that is always who it’s for.
Nothing says, “I love my kid” like offhandedly dismissing anything they say if you don’t like it.
Plus, I feel like what annoys Carol most is that Joyce is one of the last known N-spacers.
N-spacers? Is this another anime reference?
I am a thousand years old.
When I was growing up, I was told to use two spaces after a period, as Joyce’s dialogue does above. Now hardly anyone does, and even though I am in my typing, it won’t show up in the format. When I was learning the Internet, I was told that was a technical limitation, but now everyone’s insisting to me it was always the case.
It’s basically a US thing.
Two spaces after sentences, I mean.
I still don’t understand the “two spaces after a period” thing. Is it just to create a little extra distance between sentences, or is there some other reason?
It improves readability in text that is displayed with a single-space font. Like an old typewriter. People can get quite agitated about it for some reason.
Two spaces after a period is a fixed font typewriting thing. Computer fonts adjust the size of a space slightly to fit the justification and prevent words from being hyphenated. Kerning. Widows and orphans. All automatic in wysiwyg world. Unless you’re using InDesign or similar software it’s invisible.
One imagines some of those words have meanings attached to them.
When I was first learning to use a Mac, I resented this feature so much that I went out of my way to hyphenate words at the end of a sentence. The Mac got the last laugh when I tried to rewrite a section.
Sorry. That should read “words at the end of a line”. Should have proofread.
Page layout is a dying art. You can learn a lot of tricks from old computing books, and using a little creativity to stretch that essay out to fill the last half a page without resorting to Kronk-like repetition.
(Also, M-spacers, I mean)
Ohhhhhh, that read as “N-spacers” as in “an undetermined number N of spaces”. I think the typographical lengths are usually written in English as “en” and “em”.
Knowing the bible helps become an Atheist.
It’s always interesting when the atheism topic comes up because I honestly feel like I’m in the minority of people who didn’t have a bad experience with Christianity or anything. I keep getting people who tell me to read the bible but that book is long as fuck and there’s not even any pictures.
It’d make a pretty good visual novel, tbh.
There’s a kid in my class who has brought in his graphic novel version of the Bible a couple times, actually.
A graphic novel is like a comic book, right?
Yes, except adults are officially allowed to read it.
Legally allowed. At least, as of 2019 it’s legal.
This is funny to me because in my experience, it’s actually kids who care about the difference in terminology. I guess also sometimes teachers who want kids to be able to read them in school (though they could also be pushing back on the negative associations with “comic books” they’re responding to).
Bible dating sim when?
…. why did you have to say that when I was browsing the comments? Now I’m tempted.
Just like Christ was.
Get Hirohiko Araki to make it. He’d unironically make an amazing biblical adaptation.
NO. I SAW IT FIRST.
Needs ASCII art in Song of Songs, to accompany “Wake up, North Wind. South Wind, blow on my garden; fill the air with fragrance. Let my lover come to his garden and eat the best of its fruits.”
For me, it’s frustrating to be told over and over “You wouldn’t be a Christian if you had actually read the Bible” and my years of study and degree in religious studies are apparently not real?
Now, studying the Bible certainly meant that I have a different view of it than your typical Evangelical, but that’s why I am a Quaker rather than an Evangelical. My university’s historical and sociological approach meant that I approached the Bible from a very different angle than self-proclaimed “literalists” (who are anything but) with an understanding of how the many books of the Bible reflected the people and time of their writing/compiling/translation rather than being the Divinely Dictated, Unchanging Word of God.
Studying and working to understand the Bible does not automatically lead to atheism, and I get pretty tired of people insisting that it does because that was their experience.
Personal experience is compelling. Many people who get through a case of covid with ‘mild effects’ (so far as they know) sort of harbor the belief that it was all overblown. Millions dead? Hey, I got it and I was fine.
So a LOT of people have read the bible carefully and became atheists (raises hand) and the same dynamic is in play. They generalize their experience. My horizon is the edge of the Earth, etc.
It would be more accurate to say reading the bible undermines fundamentalism. Maybe. I haven’t done a formal study.
Remember, they say “if you actually read the bible”, but what they mean is “if you read the bible my way”.
Whoops, I thought you meant they meant it in a “no true Scotsman” kind of way.
Still applies, I guess?
I remind myself how obnoxious it was when I was still a Christian, when a former Christian presumed I would follow the exact same path he did. It’s condescending. He wasn’t entirely wrong, but there are other paths.
So if I were to frustrate you, I hope it would at least not be in the same tedious way.
Also, I knew a guy who went to D school, and he said about a third of the people there became atheists. So not automatically, but there is some correlation, and it’s not just Biblical literalists (I wasn’t a literalist).
Check out Robert Crumb’s graphic novel version of Genesis. It’s as accurate as he could make it and very entertaining.
A wild Carol appears
Joyce casts “I’m an atheist now, Mom!”
It is somewhat effective
Carol disappears into the tall grass
I think that’s just Joyce using Roar.
I’m fascinated by the comments that say Carol is 100% aware that she’s manipulating her daughter and possibly emotionally abusing her, and that she’s also aware of the power hierarchy at her church and playing directly into it.
To me it’s entirely possible and I even consider it more likely that Carol has zero self awarenesses. This woman is not the introspective type. She talks like this to Joyce because she doesn’t think about Joyce’s agency as a person. She sold her (half?) of the of house and gave the proceeds to her church because her pastor said this was needed and she did not stop to think about the implications or consequences.
This is the same church that produced Ross, a certified moron who tried to kidnap his daughter in the broad sober daylight in front of witnesses; and then months later committed more serious crimes following a man who never fully explained his plans or motives but did imply he was the same denomination of Christian. Ross never, for a single second, stopped think ahead long enough to even plan successful crimes; he assumed the hand of god would guide him I suppose. Carol was his friend and admired him after the failed kidnapping. She most likely has a very similar mindset
all of this to say that yes, both of them are shitty parents who abuse their children, but I don’t think they even realize it. Carol is not trying to whittle down Joyce’s self esteem and confidence (like Blaine did to Amber), but she raised her family in an environment where that is likely to happen; and now she’s trying to maintain that status quo
It’s my impression that, in religious environments such as hers, self-awareness is strongly deprecated and personal agency systematically denied. Which is hilarious because, then, who is doing the denying, and to whom is he speaking?
Or, it would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad.
Carol for fuck’s sake, say something other than “Nuh-uh”. Repetitive jackass.
Was she lashing out the first time she said it, or only after you dismissed it and she tried to say it a second time?
See I’ve had this talk myself. The last time was only yesterday. The one that gets to a point where you have to ask “do you want to try having an adult conversation with me, or do you want to rattle off a bunch of assumptions you have about me? Because you don’t need me to be here for the second one.”
And then I never talked to them again.
It was lashing out the first time, and repeating it only confirmed it as lashing out.
At least that’s how it must work in Carol-land.
Given the tenuous grasp many Christians I’ve encountered have on the Bible, I’m not sure how knowing it precludes atheism.
It doesn’t, but it does tend to preclude a lot of fundamentalism’s major claims.
[tangent] I get a weird feeling when I read “fundamentalism” being used this way. My wife says she’s a fundamentalist, but she’s not insane, clueless or power-mad. Terms like “fundamentalist” and “evangelical” have been stolen right under our noses. It makes me angry.
(Not at you, Allandrel, or anyone else here. At the perpetrators. Someday I’ll work out effective action to redress their crimes.)
That’s how those groups work: they usurp established verbiage to make themselves sound more legitimate and dismantle the identities of groups they oppose.
Ironically, if she saw Becky she’d bend over backwards to not call her a christian
If Carol bent over backwards, I’d be very impressed. Now I wanna see that.
I don’t know the bible or torah memorized back to back but the grossness and cultishness of the religious people around me definitely made me leave that whole thing behind me, especially when my parents stopped consistently pushing me towards it as a teen and ESPECIALLY after I realized I’m gay lol
Knowing the whole Bible by heart is not exactly conducive to being a believer.
I don’t know. I suspect that kind of memorizing chapter and verse approach fits well with fundamentalism. You learn it that way so you can spit back appropriate bible verses on cue, not because you’ve thought deeply about the meanings.
Oh, Carol.
You’re not getting invited to her wedding.
Welcome to No Contact land.
Feel that Carol will threaten to yank funding for Joyce’s college in retaliation at this rate.
Carol will blame the college and Joyce’s friends for ‘poisoning ‘ her mind and force her back home (whatever that may be now).
What’s she gonna do, stop paying with the income we assume she doesn’t have?
If Carol is selling the house and giving the money to the church, I’m not quite sure she’s the one funding Joyce’s college. From what we’ve seen of her and what I know of fundamentalists like her, I doubt she has a job outside of the home or at least not one that pays a whole lot (maybe working for a Christian non-profit sort of thing). My guess is that Joyce’s father was the main or sole breadwinner and is probably the one helping Joyce afford college (Joyce very likely also has student loans) and he’s almost certainly paying alimony to Carol and since she also got ownership of the house, he’s probably doing well. Not a rich man, but probably an upper-middle-class type.
Hank is a dentist.
The divorce actually took that weapon away from her. All she could do is get herself out of whatever she co-signed. If Hank is willing to shoulder the debt himself, Joyce can still attend.
It’s been established that Hank is paying for Joyce’s tuition. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/signup/
good memory
Go back and confront me, coward.
I wonder what it would take to totally tip Carol over the edge?
“Mom, I’m a lesbian” …
“Mom, I’m a Hare Krishna” …
“Mom, I’m a MAGA” …
“Mom, I’m taking up the oboe” …
Something’s gotta work here.
That third one would just make Carol happy.
“Mom, I had an affair with a washing machine…”
Gaslighting in its simplest form.
“I am a thing.”
“Nuh uh.”
🙁
“I know better than you, because I said so. Therefore your feelings are invalid.”
[Extended groan of existential dread]
I really do get incredulous about the MASSIVE egos on religious people who literally claim to be mind readers. Of course they look like the biggest idiots since they say things you know to be untrue with such undeserved confidence
Carol isn’t doing this as gaslighting or being manipulative. Or, she IS, but she’s not doing it intentionally. See, what Joyce is saying to her is something that is completely against how she sees the world. Her child saying she doesn’t believe in God and is an atheist is just not something that is possible in her reality. So she rejects it as being lashing out or a phase or a youthful rebellion.
She also is doing that thing all parents do where they will always see their children as children to some extent. Not saying they will never treat their kids as adults, but there on some level they will always see the little kid that they raised and view what they say or do in that context.
Honestly, the people who’ve read the Bible the most seem to be the most likely to deconvert. There’s some fucked-up shit in there sometimes. (I don’t mean this with any offense to the progressive Christians who decide “fuck that” and follow the good stuff like “love your neighbor.” Some of my favorite people are progressive Christians, who I have more in common with than some kinds of atheists.)
Also, another instance of Carol reminding me of my mom to an uncomfy (but cathartic) degree. Istg, some parents form their mental image of you when you’re like 5 and refuse to let that image change in any way as you grow and change. You tell them you’re queer? “No, you’re not.” You question their religious beliefs? “No, you don’t.” You try to exert any form of autonomy or boundaries? “No.” I get that Carol’s going through a rough time (mind, it’s a hell of her own making) but fuck her, Joyce deserves to lash out at her right now.
I think this is a stereotype that doesn’t remotely hold true. Especially for those who actually hold to the antiestablishment and incredibly anti-fundamentalist views of the New Testament.
I can be an atheist and lash at! I can do both! I’m a multitasker!
Am I the only one here who is more agnostic than atheist? Because, really,
atheism is a form of faith, if only a negative faith.
Atheism certainly doesn’t require faith, it’s the default position for just about anything. We are all born as atheists and even monotheists are atheists except for the one god they believe in. People get confused about atheism and assume it’s a stronger statement that it actually. If you want a make a logically positive statement about the world then an example of that would be secular humanism, not atheism. The common example of this given is that you don’t need faith to not believe there is a teapot orbiting Mars.
“atheism is a faith” is a lie that religious people tell, often to repress their own doubts. would be great if agnostic atheists didn’t buy into it, because it comes across as trolling other agnostic atheists.
Agnostic does not refer directly to belief in God. It refers to your position on the question of God.
You can be:
An Agnostic Theist: I believe in a God, but don’t know which form it takes
A Gnostic Theist: I believe in God, and claim to know that it’s this specific version.
An Agnostic Atheist: I don’t believe in God, but I have no reason to think a god couldn’t exist should the evidence present itself.
A Gnostic Atheist: I don’t believe in God, and am certain there are no gods.
Most atheists are agnostic atheists. It’s the simplest position to take and is the default state humans are born in. Plus most of us are absolutely willing to admit that if we were presented with compelling evidence, we would have no problem believing in it. We may not worship it, as most gods are absolutely awful, deplorable beings that deserve 0 praise, but belief? Hell yeah, no problem.
That’s like saying that not believing in ghosts is a faith, or that not believing in Cthulu is a faith.
“Atheism is a faith in the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby” To sort of quote Penn Gillette.
It’s starting to seem like Carol is running away from the offer of lunch. Looks like she can’t handle some hard truths.
Maybe they’re headed out right now. Let’s see if they continue this conversation in Benihana’s.
Anyone got a shovel and a nickel? This situation needs some Mike.
You can be or do two things at once Carol. But honestly Joyce as some licence to lash out, not that you agree.
Um, yeah. I feel like if you know the Christian bible really well, you’re even more likely to be an atheist. It seems most Christians don’t actually know their own book.
For me, knowing almost the entire bible didn’t turn myself an atheist. Instead, it got me disappointed and sad for the christians, even more those are around me.
she’s just so dismissive…..
how is “no you’re not“ an argument?!
Also, knowing the bible inside out and even *enjoying* religious beliefs as a child does NOT mean you will stay the same as an adult. i grew up that way, too. i believed all this to be real until i met atheists who weren’t the kind of terrible people my church had always warned me about.
Now, it’s hard to imagine how i could ever think this way.
But as a child? you are dependant on your parents’ love and support, so you aren’t exactly free to believe what you want to believe, unless maybe if your parents are doing a really great job at celebrating and supporting every choice you make for yourself without it having to be the choice the parent would have made.
Because Carol is her mother and she says so, that’s why.
*eyeroll, dismissive wanking motion*
I know “dismissive” mostly modifies “motion” here, but now I’m trying to figure out how one might wank dismissively.
Carol. Uh. Many people became atheists because they know the bible inside and out
Well I’m not an atheist because of that, but I have read a considerable portion of the bible, and if there was ever anything that could guarantee I’d never become religious, it was reading the bible.
I admit, I became a believer because of Jesus’ actual words. Dude was a frigging anarchist.
He also hated most hypocrites.
I hope they just let her leave.
Replacing “an atheist” with any proper description gives this convo a whirl of a time.
“Then how do you explain why you’re wearing glasses now??” “I, uhm”
some say carol is still walking and denying to this day. she was last spotted around the beach walking into the ocean muttering “She’ll grow out of it…” to herself. may she discover self-awareness on the seafloor…