It does totally solve the most common (and often kind of banal) forms of love triangles, but the best love triangles face more complex barriers than “I want to be with both of them but I can’t”. Those? Those ones are dull as dowels. But what if you love two people, but they’re enemies with one another? What if their competition with one another turns out to be the main thing attracting them to you at all? What if you’re *in* a polycule, but jealousy and insecurity form anyways?
Also – what if instead of “I wanna be with both but have to choose one because compulsory monogamy,” it’s just practicality? A is moving across the world and isn’t interested in anything long distance while B wants to stay local?
Or A is interested in B but B is interested in C who maybe isn’t interested in anyone because they’re ace and then you have D who also is interested in B… Etc. Mine your high school classmates’ relationship dramas for more interesting content!
(Seriously my high school was better than a soap opera for unbelievable relationship dramas lol)
Or hell instead of the classic you cheater you must choose – maybe A cheated because it gave them a thrill, and unbeknownst to them B would have been ok with polyamory but isn’t okay with lying (I am not poly but most poly people I know are super big on honesty), then B and C and D go off into the sunset or something and have fun being a throuple (sp?) while A is alone because they’re a lying liar who lies a lot.
Not really. I used to be with someone poly. I lived with them and their poly partner and honestly I just didn’t get on with their partner. But we both wanted to live with our mutual partner. So unfortunately polycules do not solve everything!
Well, thanks to “mean” Sarah, Walky knows Joyce has been masturbating a lot recently, but he doesn’t know how she does it or that she calls it doing laundry.
Also, there’s like dozens of rooms in a wing, so dozens of people who haven’t even shown up in the background, but probably interact with these characters on a daily basis, off panel. We know all these phantom residents are of no consequence, but Joe and Joyce don’t.
Okay, I’m still not sure I get the Dot-hate from that incident. Yes, it was bizarre. But she was upfront about her intentions, gave Joyce multiple opportunities to opt out, and, ultimately, she was right.
Teaching masturbation as something enjoyable and not shameful (which Dorothy did in part by virtue of being present and non-judgemental) is, in fact, a very, very good way to keep people from doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.
Now, I’ll concede that Dorothy’s motives were not as pure as they could’ve been; it’s unfortunate that showing up Roz was a factor (no matter how much I, personally, love to see Roz get shown up). But there’s no evidence here that she did Joyce any harm, or acted with real malice.
So, yeah, “worse than Raidah” is a case that needs to be substantiated, at the very least, given that Raidah’s actions have encompassed both malicious motive and actual harm.
Oh, and to be clear–she was right that Joyce shouldn’t be climbing Mt. Libido because she’s foggy-headed from hormones. THAT would be a decision that could lead to regret and shame.
She should bone Joe, hard, while in an utterly clear state of mind.
I think at this point, there’s no “needs to be substantiated”, people probably aren’t going to be convinced, they’ve got their reading of the situation and will change. I don’t see “upfront” when Dorothy starts the encounter without telling Joyce first, and makes a dig at Joyce’s insecurity. I don’t get “without malice” from this face: https://www.dumbingofage.com/faceless/
You’re not going to be able to convince me, and I doubt anyone will be able to convince you. I do not hate Dorothy though. I think she fucked up, and can be better. That’s kind of the over-arching message of the entire strip, that people can be better than their worst mistakes.
Right? felt hypocritical how Dorothy was framing her own insecurities about Joyce’s attraction to Joe as her being open-minded on sexuality. No Dorothy, trying to keep Joyce from pusuing a real person because you think you know what’s best Is just another way of upholding your person status quo.
She knew Joe at that point in time as being a sleazy guy. I don’t know why people forget that.
Like she wasn’t being a perfect person that’s for sure, but you’re acting like she did something horrendous and unforgivable. No she had concerns because she knew what Joe used to be like.
Teaching her how to masturbate so that Joyce at least would be in a clearer head going in is like the least offensive thing she did during that time.
‘Horendous and unforgivable’ no, ethically problematic yes. Deciding for somebody your going to personally teach masturbation to them when you have a maternal friend relationship makes consent very questionable consent because Dorothy and Joyce are not equals their friendship. I don’t think Dorothy’s actions need to be outright villainous to be acknowledged as wrong and I still don’t think Joes character in first semester is a justification.
Everyone is also forgetting that Joyce and Dorothy’s last interaction before that was Joyce very loudly and clearly telling Dorothy to leave her and her burgeoning sexuality alone.
Dorothy’s very next appearance was to say “Hey, remember a few hours ago when you said you wanted space? No.” And Joyce doesn’t even acknowledge it! We skip right over “You’re judging me again,” skip right over “Hey, you’re trying to control my selection in partners without having one of those in-depth talks you’re normally great about having,” and land straight on “I’ve never touched myself.”
The hard cut to them walking to the laundromat really sold the fact that Willis went “Well, I’m making this happen, but there’s no way to unambiguously and cleanly show Joyce consenting at this point, so I won’t.” We get a super shakey “If you’re not sure about this…” from Dorothy and ultra-eager-to-please Joyce saying she IS sure when she’s clearly not.
This is all of course ignoring that Joyce is a sexual assault victim which just triples how gross Dorothy was that entire sequence. I don’t think Dorothy is one of the villain characters. I do think she fucked up badly and the comic going meaner and wackier after the timeskip is going to do a lot of work in smoothing over just how wrong that sequence was.
And if I see one more person misconstrue Dorothy’s intentions as “She was trying to HELP Joyce have a clear head when dealing with Joe” I’m going to revert to my shittiest form until I’m nuked off this website. She was very very clear it was intended to control Joyce and keep her away from Joe entirely.
But she was just trying to help Joyce have a clearer head when dealing with Joe. Now, granted, she assumed a clear headed Joyce would “deal with Joe” by staying away from him but Dorothy still achieved her main objective, albeit in a roundabout way different than she envisioned.
We know she doesn’t want them together, but we also know she hasn’t seen any of the deep conversations they’ve had.
Joyce: “I want Joe.”
Dorothy: “No you don’t, you’re just horny. I know how to fix that.”
[Kinda weird laundry room sequence]
Dorothy: “There! All set! Now you can stay away from Joe.”
Joyce: “Nah, I still want Joe.”
Dorothy: *internal screaming*
Remember when Joe agreed he was planning to fix Joyce by making her cum, but really his motivation was self-gratification? That was pretty creepy, fortunately, people can be better than the worst version of themselves. But it takes recognizing them recognizing their mistakes. Anyways, Dorothy tried to “fix” Joyce by making her cum, after a week or two of her own fumbles being thrown into her face and needing a win.
I also don’t love Dorothy’s attitude toward Joe in that same arc. She was treating Joe like a sex monster, which I will absolutely admit has some degree of justification based on what we know of his behavior in high school and his first semester of college. But at the same time, she was disregarding Joyce’s privacy and wishes for bodily autonomy. Sure, Dorothy had good intentions, but she crossed some lines and the contrast between her behavior and what she was preaching to Joe deserves scrutiny. Plus, Dorothy needs to learn that she cannot solve all problems for all people- I think that’s kind of the core of her current arc- and having to accept that Joe is changing as significantly as she herself is would be a good lens for Dorothy to look through, I think. She can be a little rigid in her thinking, and learning to see others as multifaceted and dynamic will a) be good for her worldview, and b) probably help her see herself that way. I don’t expect or want a big blow-out fight, but a hard honest conversation between two people who have known each other for a long time during a formative period feels right.
I’m not sure Joe will ever get the whole story. At this point he just knows Joyce and Dorothy masturbated together. Which sounds odd knowing Joyce isn’t comfortable with sex, but I doubt he’d pry as she’s stated it happened before they got together.
So at this point I don’t think Joe will be bothered beyond being surprised it happened at all.
I really want to know what all she’s going to share about that. She is both making it sound worse than it was plus… honestly not really misrepresenting it THAT much.
Dorothy kinda pushed her into it, though. Like, seriously. Joyce didn’t seem to have much of a choice there. Dorothy was low-key coercing her into it. That pissed me the hell off there. Women get away with so much creepy shit in this comic. But Dorothy’s was a new low. I hope Joe confronts her about it.
It was maybe a little clunky pacing wise but I don’t think it was coercion. Joyce went along willingly and Dorothy gave her multiple outs. I don’t like the argument as it kind of takes away Joyce’s agency. Like she’s not adult enough to make decisions or that Dorothy has some total control over her. I just think Joyce needed to more clearly affirm she was okay with it but dialogue like that often doesn’t feel natural.
I felt like the narrative took away Joyce’s agency. I might not be so iffy on it if it didn’t come RIGHT after Joyce asked Dorothy to stay out of her business. And if Dorothy’s primary reason for doing it wasn’t “To keep her from making bad decisions.” and not just…self exploration. It feels like it’s just another way of her Micromanaging Joyce’s life.
It definitely was, most of Dorothys motivation by her own admission was to keep Joyce and Joe apart and to prove to herself that Roz was wrong about her being a slut shaming upholder of the status quo. It was especially controlling with how Dorothy just walked in and told Joyce what to do.
I can agree with that. Dorothy having more selfish motives does kind of make the situation more questionable. I just don’t like the general Dorothy is a manipulator or Joyce is incapable of making decisions allegations. It kind of feels insulting to their relationship.
Yeah, this. Joyce had plenty of opportunity to tell Dorothy to f off, had she so pleased. But she wanted to know where this situation would go, so she stuck through it despite being scared. No clue what’s creepy about that.
Joyce is still in the habit of going along with what dorothy tells her even when she doesn’t want to and letting the resentment build up(ex) her being upset with dorothy outside the pharmacy for being so up in her personal buisness, blowing up at Dorothy and Roz ) so I never liked the argument that it was all up to Joyce to keep telling dorothy no and that Dorothy was right to plan the whole “laundry trip” without asking beforehand for permission.
I’m pretty sure the point of her blowing up about being in her business was at least half if not more narrative mechanism to indicate how having to go through multiple real life veryday changes (glasses, birth control) that she felt conflicted about due to religious upbringing and autism, and feel like she doesn’t have control over herself anymore was amplified by Dorothy constantly trying to shepherd her. In reality, she needed glasses, she couldn’t see anymore, she needed birth control, her periods were extremely painful which could be an indicator of endometriosis, and yes left to her own devices she may have avoided wearing her glasses or taking her pills. But it was also a sign of growth, that she was done being a child and wanted to be independent and responsible for her own choices.
Dotty had a position of power over Joyce that made it creepy for me.
I know people get all bent out of shape over the “mom friend” thing, but their whole relationship reads *to me* that Dotty had put herself in the “responsible for you” position for Joyce.
And doing hanky panky stuff while in that position when consent seems dubious reads squick to me.
And I reaaaaally dislike the “She could just leave” stance, because… No, sometimes you feel like you can’t just leave when this sort of thing happens.
If Joyce sees Dotty as an authority figure, and Dotty uses that to coerce Joyce do something sexual, that’s abuse. Doesn’t matter if she came from it or not.
Their relationship is still fairly new(only about 6 months now) Dorothy has always been a bit controlling and Joyce is in a stage where she doesnt have the church or her mother to tell her how to live her life which she is still adjusting to. I don’t think it’s insulting to admit their flaws. Dorothy took too much control on that instance because shes used to Joyces obedience and Joyce still has trouble setting boundaries with respected authority figures.
To be fair too Dorothy, Joyce has been giving very mixed messages on how much she wants Dorothy to back off. One minute it’s leave me alone, next minute it’s can you research and sign me up for an art class?
Sometimes dumbing of age isn’t about stupid decisions, it’s about making the right decision in a stupid (or stupidly funny) way.
You are correct in that Joyce is literally given multiple outs. People can feel squicked out about it if they want, but if they think consent wasn’t there, that is them explicitly misremembering what happened, which, it was months ago now, so I get it.
I like how Joe is so big that he is scrunched up by the panel frames (and in universe likely the door frame) so all his hand jesters are with his elbows bent in.
“Like you used her to assist you or you did it in tandem? Were you side by side or back to back? Were you using your own fingers or like did you help each other out? Would it still be masturbation then? Maybe if she guided your hand or something I guess. Or did you like…have her on the phone while you did it for moral support?
Who said they haven’t already?
They’ve been friends since kindergarten, so they may have done so before, especially when they hit puberty and/or had sex ed.
I wonder if he’s going to find out when exactly, because it was the evening of the day Dorothy threatened him at lunch, that she could keep Joyce and him apart instead of trusting Joyce.
But to put the timing in perspective, Joe was going to have sex with Liz because he thought it would rid him of his crush on Joyce. One week ago, that was a Friday, this is the next Friday.
Just because she trusts Joyce doesn’t change the fact she doesn’t trust Joe based on reasonable concerns of his own past and not wanting her to get hurt by him.
You can trust someone and think they’re an adult and still do things like that if you don’t trust the other person.
Joe was an a-hole yes but not a predator or manipulator. Sometimes your friends are going to date people you think are going to break their heart and as long as their not a danger you need to accept that it’s the friends decision to make after warning them of your misgivings.
I was referencing http://www.dumbingofage.com/faceless in which Joe said he trusted Joyce to decide if he was worth it, urged Dorothy to do the same, and then, as I thought was pretty clear, indicated she didn’t.
And I thought it was clear she, at least momentarily, realized that she was trying to tell people what to do with their lives, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions, here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/standing-2/
I thought the Dorothy/Joyce scene was cute. It read a little more awkwardly day-to-day, when you don’t know where it’s going, but all that really happened was that Dorothy helped her friend (who absolutely needed help) for slightly askew reasons. Reading it archivally, it’s adorable. Dorothy later realized she was being askew and stopped trying to patronize to Joyce about her love life, and everyone moved on.
The “this is predatory” stuff is… well, I won’t get into it, because there’s plenty of arguments already up above you can get into if you want to argue. I don’t. I just wanted to voice that I liked the scene, because as much as I sometimes feel like Willis enjoys starting discourse here, I’m sure they also like hearing positive words as much as anyone. X3
I really look forward to a new comic every morning though. And I completely lack the discipline to just read one a day. If there’s ice cream in the freezer I’m gonna have some.
I read it mostly all at once, I took a break around when they ran into Carla, and waited a few days after the twitter description seemed like the scene was over.
I do have a reasonable opinion, but it’s one you seem to think is unreasonable and that people wouldn’t have if they read it all at once.
Like I said, there’s plenty of people eager to debate about it. I just liked the scene and wanted to make a space for people to talk about liking it without the endless squabbles. “Agree to disagree” is a much faster way to say what you said. X3
For the sake of the joke and to keep the narrative short, a lot of the discussion around consent is dropped. If somebody acted like that in real life, it would be pushing a boundary at the very minimum. I think people get too caught up in judging the comic with real-life standards.
Joyce, I don’t think Joe’s problem is that you masturbated with Dorothy, I think the problem is that you masturbated with Dorothy, and he wasn’t there to see it
Joe’s kinda killin’ it here? He’s hearing her, comprehending her words, and asking relevant follow-up questions, without twisting anything in some insane direct that makes no sense. It’s like he gives a fuck what she’s saying to him? Which isn’t a high bar to clear, obviously, but sometimes these characters may as well be speaking different languages to each other, so it’s nice to see a normal conversation.
Oh! And let’s not undersell Joyce managing to come out and say it explicitly. She’s shy about it, but she’s not dissolving into brownsauce or freaking out and fleeing the scene of the crime. Like she trusts him with this information or something? It’s like they’re characters who talk to each other?
Nah, it’s an extremely strained reference to an old episode of OneyPlays. As part of an anecdote that’s pretty gross and involves the host getting blackout drunk and falling asleep on the toilet, [fill in the blanks], he mentions being relieved something even worse didn’t happen, and his co-host makes a joke about him thinking “Oh, thank God. He dissolved into brownsauce.”
It’s funnier in action. Or possibly not, if you’re not a fan of the older Newgrounds style of humor.
I’ve noticed that she is a degree or two more open talking with him than most everyone else, even before Life Drawing Class. Despite the image he presents to everyone [else], he’s a good listener.
There’s a camp of “Dorothy is a predator” and another that’s sort of “What Dorothy did was great why does anyone have a problem?” But to me it just seemed she was a bit of a controlling know-it-all, which is totally on-brand for her. And does not necessarily signal bad intentions.
Joyce is sorting out a lifetime of judgment and shame and that’s not gonna go away in a moment. So far Joe’s handling things really well and in a kindly way. At the beginning of the strip years ago, I wouldn’t have predicted that.
Yeah, I think there’s a third camp of us who largely agree with you, that Dorothy did something a little weird by trying to take charge of a situation that she doesn’t actually have control over. But it would just be exhausting to try to convince people that there’s not an actual power imbalance between two 18 year olds who live in the same dorm. So I say nothing.
My amusement that Joe has NO IDEA what the problem is here grows with each passing strip. Like, he can’t even CONCEPTUALIZE why masturbating might be a problem, why you’d need a weird euphemism, or how the hell Dorothy is involved at all.
The thing that’s weird to me about the whole ‘Dorothy is a moustache-twirling villain who cannot stand to see Joyce acting independently’ angle is that it simultaneously takes as granted that Joyce is so easily pressured into sexual acts that she is not ready for that repeatedly reminding her that her consent is revokable at any time might as well just be chloroforming her, but also that Dorothy trying to keep Joyce from falling in with a KNOWN SEX PEST (as a generous description from Dorothy’s perspective) is a ‘selfish’ motivation.
I’m not saying Dorothy was right, but her main problems are A: having a different subjective experience than us comic readers, and B: overcorrection. She saw Joyce (vulnerable former attempted-rape victim who is in several ways still naive) seeming to fall under the sway of a man she has known for YEARS as a sex-obsessed creep. The kind of guy who looks at a girl like Joyce and decides the way to ‘fix’ her is to ‘break her in’ with a good banging (note: literally Joe’s words in early comics). Dorothy raised objections, which I don’t think is RIGHT, but is absolutely understandable. And got shit on for being sex-negative. So she took that criticism and promptly overcorrected into the opposite end of the spectrum for a sex-positive way to defend Joyce from what Dorothy saw as a threat.
And then when it turned out Joyce wasn’t JUST horny but actually has a budding genuine relationship with Joe (and also with Dorothy’s own shit going on), Dorothy admitted her wrong and dropped it.
what’s really weird to me is when criticism of Dorothy’s actions is mischaracterized as “Dorothy is a mustache-twirling villain”.
Did Joe agreeing with Sarah that he wants to “fix” Joyce by making her cum make Joe a creep? I think so. Dorothy also tried to “fix” Joyce by making her cum, and I think that was super creepy.
Dorothy’s main problem is she is ordinary, but thinks she’s extraordinary. That’s some relatable growing pains stuff, even when she makes terrible and creepy mistakes.
Well that’s not what’s happening here because I’m not responding to criticism of Dorothy’s actions. I criticized Dorothy’s actions myself, in fact. I’m responding to the thing I said I was responding to. So. Y’know. Rock on.
Honestly, I agree with your read. Like– alright, her motivations were a little condescending; she was assuming Joyce was just into Joe because she was horny.
On the other hand, they’re both eighteen year old girls in the same dorm who have gone through a lot together, and who trust each other. And either Joyce is an adult, who can give and withdraw consent as she pleases, or Joyce is a sheltered child, and shouldn’t be allowed to date.
Joyce is an adult. She gave consent, and, later, took the reigns of the experience, kicking Dorothy out of the room. I kind of find the argument that Joyce is too attached to Dorothy to say no to be infantalizing- she Has said no to Dorothy before, she Has established and held boundaries with Dorothy before, and if she couldn’t meaningfully consent with Dorothy, by that same logic, she can’t meaningfully consent with Joe.
I mean… so are we gonna just gloss over the fact that Joyce has been regularly masturbating in a public room? A room that everyone in the dorm needs to use all the time? Like… Like what if we found out Joe was doing that? Would he still be considered datable material?
Loading ...
If you masturbate with someone else, is that cheating on yourself?!
anyway I thought she DIDN’T touch herself, that’s why it didn’t count??
i thought it was called ‘heavy petting’ tho technically theyu didn’t touch each other, just holding hands lol
side note but i always get so excited when i see your propic finally come up in a strip!! <3
It’s not explicit, but I read her asking Dorothy to leave before she finished as her going to touch herself.
I mean… I think she knows it is masturbation but can’t SAY THE WORD because Joyce Reasons, and so this is as close as she managed…
Joe: I want to tell you it’s okay but I’m afraid you’ll misconstrue it!
Joyce: YOU PERVERT!
He could always volunteer to be her chaperone next time instead of Dorothy. That way it’s not cheating!
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
Polyamory solves the math of love triangles.
You don’t “solve” the math of love triangles by allowing fifty non-conflicting triangles simultaneously.
It does totally solve the most common (and often kind of banal) forms of love triangles, but the best love triangles face more complex barriers than “I want to be with both of them but I can’t”. Those? Those ones are dull as dowels. But what if you love two people, but they’re enemies with one another? What if their competition with one another turns out to be the main thing attracting them to you at all? What if you’re *in* a polycule, but jealousy and insecurity form anyways?
Also – what if instead of “I wanna be with both but have to choose one because compulsory monogamy,” it’s just practicality? A is moving across the world and isn’t interested in anything long distance while B wants to stay local?
Or A is interested in B but B is interested in C who maybe isn’t interested in anyone because they’re ace and then you have D who also is interested in B… Etc. Mine your high school classmates’ relationship dramas for more interesting content!
(Seriously my high school was better than a soap opera for unbelievable relationship dramas lol)
Or hell instead of the classic you cheater you must choose – maybe A cheated because it gave them a thrill, and unbeknownst to them B would have been ok with polyamory but isn’t okay with lying (I am not poly but most poly people I know are super big on honesty), then B and C and D go off into the sunset or something and have fun being a throuple (sp?) while A is alone because they’re a lying liar who lies a lot.
Hehehe
Sorry that last one is a mood
What if she loves your alter-ego but not you? And your alter-ego can’t be with her because of his enemies?
Then you keep her away from goblins and bridges.
Not really. I used to be with someone poly. I lived with them and their poly partner and honestly I just didn’t get on with their partner. But we both wanted to live with our mutual partner. So unfortunately polycules do not solve everything!
Joyce has really come a long way. No pun intended.
But this also shows how far she has yet to go.
Aaaaaaaaawwwwweeee 🥹🥰
Also yeah, i miscalculated earlier it seems. The likelihood of having to renew my slipshine subscription soon now borders on almost certain. 😗
Wonder who else is in Joe’s hallway right now.
Though with Danny and Walky both out right now, there’s really not many people left of consequence that live there. Just Ethan, Booster, and Jacob.
it would be great if walky was in the hallway but i imagine it’d not be enough time/simultaneous for him to make it back lol
Well, thanks to “mean” Sarah, Walky knows Joyce has been masturbating a lot recently, but he doesn’t know how she does it or that she calls it doing laundry.
well other than sarah outing herself i’m sure walky would revel(?) in joyce admitting it herself out loud lol
And even once he gets back, he’s probably busy freaking out.
Arnold.
Also, there’s like dozens of rooms in a wing, so dozens of people who haven’t even shown up in the background, but probably interact with these characters on a daily basis, off panel. We know all these phantom residents are of no consequence, but Joe and Joyce don’t.
And Peter. And Peter’s frequent (entirely-chaste) guest.
The mom walks back in…
Booster would enjoy this, for as long as it’s a chaotic anyway
Cue The diVinyls “I Touch Myself.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-34w8kGPM
Gotta love the transition Joe makes from “Wait, that’s what all this fuss is about?” to “Actually, something is genuinely not quite right here!”
I really hope Joe confronts Dorothy here. Because that was really not okay of her to do. Like, Dorothy went below Raidah for me in that moment.
agreed
Okay, I’m still not sure I get the Dot-hate from that incident. Yes, it was bizarre. But she was upfront about her intentions, gave Joyce multiple opportunities to opt out, and, ultimately, she was right.
Teaching masturbation as something enjoyable and not shameful (which Dorothy did in part by virtue of being present and non-judgemental) is, in fact, a very, very good way to keep people from doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.
Now, I’ll concede that Dorothy’s motives were not as pure as they could’ve been; it’s unfortunate that showing up Roz was a factor (no matter how much I, personally, love to see Roz get shown up). But there’s no evidence here that she did Joyce any harm, or acted with real malice.
So, yeah, “worse than Raidah” is a case that needs to be substantiated, at the very least, given that Raidah’s actions have encompassed both malicious motive and actual harm.
Oh, and to be clear–she was right that Joyce shouldn’t be climbing Mt. Libido because she’s foggy-headed from hormones. THAT would be a decision that could lead to regret and shame.
She should bone Joe, hard, while in an utterly clear state of mind.
Even I wouldn’t say worse than Raidah and I’m a semi-regular Raidah defender
I think at this point, there’s no “needs to be substantiated”, people probably aren’t going to be convinced, they’ve got their reading of the situation and will change. I don’t see “upfront” when Dorothy starts the encounter without telling Joyce first, and makes a dig at Joyce’s insecurity. I don’t get “without malice” from this face: https://www.dumbingofage.com/faceless/
You’re not going to be able to convince me, and I doubt anyone will be able to convince you. I do not hate Dorothy though. I think she fucked up, and can be better. That’s kind of the over-arching message of the entire strip, that people can be better than their worst mistakes.
Right? felt hypocritical how Dorothy was framing her own insecurities about Joyce’s attraction to Joe as her being open-minded on sexuality. No Dorothy, trying to keep Joyce from pusuing a real person because you think you know what’s best Is just another way of upholding your person status quo.
She knew Joe at that point in time as being a sleazy guy. I don’t know why people forget that.
Like she wasn’t being a perfect person that’s for sure, but you’re acting like she did something horrendous and unforgivable. No she had concerns because she knew what Joe used to be like.
Teaching her how to masturbate so that Joyce at least would be in a clearer head going in is like the least offensive thing she did during that time.
‘Horendous and unforgivable’ no, ethically problematic yes. Deciding for somebody your going to personally teach masturbation to them when you have a maternal friend relationship makes consent very questionable consent because Dorothy and Joyce are not equals their friendship. I don’t think Dorothy’s actions need to be outright villainous to be acknowledged as wrong and I still don’t think Joes character in first semester is a justification.
“…not equal in their friendship.” Does either of them know this?
Everyone is also forgetting that Joyce and Dorothy’s last interaction before that was Joyce very loudly and clearly telling Dorothy to leave her and her burgeoning sexuality alone.
Dorothy’s very next appearance was to say “Hey, remember a few hours ago when you said you wanted space? No.” And Joyce doesn’t even acknowledge it! We skip right over “You’re judging me again,” skip right over “Hey, you’re trying to control my selection in partners without having one of those in-depth talks you’re normally great about having,” and land straight on “I’ve never touched myself.”
The hard cut to them walking to the laundromat really sold the fact that Willis went “Well, I’m making this happen, but there’s no way to unambiguously and cleanly show Joyce consenting at this point, so I won’t.” We get a super shakey “If you’re not sure about this…” from Dorothy and ultra-eager-to-please Joyce saying she IS sure when she’s clearly not.
This is all of course ignoring that Joyce is a sexual assault victim which just triples how gross Dorothy was that entire sequence. I don’t think Dorothy is one of the villain characters. I do think she fucked up badly and the comic going meaner and wackier after the timeskip is going to do a lot of work in smoothing over just how wrong that sequence was.
And if I see one more person misconstrue Dorothy’s intentions as “She was trying to HELP Joyce have a clear head when dealing with Joe” I’m going to revert to my shittiest form until I’m nuked off this website. She was very very clear it was intended to control Joyce and keep her away from Joe entirely.
But she was just trying to help Joyce have a clearer head when dealing with Joe. Now, granted, she assumed a clear headed Joyce would “deal with Joe” by staying away from him but Dorothy still achieved her main objective, albeit in a roundabout way different than she envisioned.
Did she?
We know she doesn’t want them together, but we also know she hasn’t seen any of the deep conversations they’ve had.
Joyce: “I want Joe.”
Dorothy: “No you don’t, you’re just horny. I know how to fix that.”
[Kinda weird laundry room sequence]
Dorothy: “There! All set! Now you can stay away from Joe.”
Joyce: “Nah, I still want Joe.”
Dorothy: *internal screaming*
You can have good intentions and still be wrong, that’s the thing.
She met up with them again – when Joyce was in the tree – and seemed to accept them together.
Remember when Joe agreed he was planning to fix Joyce by making her cum, but really his motivation was self-gratification? That was pretty creepy, fortunately, people can be better than the worst version of themselves. But it takes recognizing them recognizing their mistakes. Anyways, Dorothy tried to “fix” Joyce by making her cum, after a week or two of her own fumbles being thrown into her face and needing a win.
I also don’t love Dorothy’s attitude toward Joe in that same arc. She was treating Joe like a sex monster, which I will absolutely admit has some degree of justification based on what we know of his behavior in high school and his first semester of college. But at the same time, she was disregarding Joyce’s privacy and wishes for bodily autonomy. Sure, Dorothy had good intentions, but she crossed some lines and the contrast between her behavior and what she was preaching to Joe deserves scrutiny. Plus, Dorothy needs to learn that she cannot solve all problems for all people- I think that’s kind of the core of her current arc- and having to accept that Joe is changing as significantly as she herself is would be a good lens for Dorothy to look through, I think. She can be a little rigid in her thinking, and learning to see others as multifaceted and dynamic will a) be good for her worldview, and b) probably help her see herself that way. I don’t expect or want a big blow-out fight, but a hard honest conversation between two people who have known each other for a long time during a formative period feels right.
I’m not sure Joe will ever get the whole story. At this point he just knows Joyce and Dorothy masturbated together. Which sounds odd knowing Joyce isn’t comfortable with sex, but I doubt he’d pry as she’s stated it happened before they got together.
So at this point I don’t think Joe will be bothered beyond being surprised it happened at all.
“Damn, that’s hot!”
I really want Joyce to come out as bi…
I mean, she’s still working on any sexuality at all, give her time.
Eh, give it a few years.
She has to come out to herself first.
I do not think she’s there yet
Or Cum out as bi.
Dorothy already handled the cumming.
I thought it was Joyce who handled it! Sure, the laundry machines helped out a bit.
A former cult member, wouldn’t be surprised if her hand was just about petrified while the machine did all the work.
“If I don’t intentionally move it, IT DOESN’T COUNT IT DOESN’T COUNT AAAAAAAAH~”
I mean how many times has Joe done laundry since they got together like two days ago? 5? I bet it’s 5.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/03-joementum/dirtbag/ He seems to distract himself with other stuff like ‘cocaine’ lol, unless he got laid so often that solo time was never rly a ‘necessity’/issue for him lol
I really want to know what all she’s going to share about that. She is both making it sound worse than it was plus… honestly not really misrepresenting it THAT much.
Dorothy kinda pushed her into it, though. Like, seriously. Joyce didn’t seem to have much of a choice there. Dorothy was low-key coercing her into it. That pissed me the hell off there. Women get away with so much creepy shit in this comic. But Dorothy’s was a new low. I hope Joe confronts her about it.
Joe looks like he’s gonna break, poor guy. 😢
I like the drama so I’d be all for this
Gonna break? Looks more to me like pent up horny 😂
It was maybe a little clunky pacing wise but I don’t think it was coercion. Joyce went along willingly and Dorothy gave her multiple outs. I don’t like the argument as it kind of takes away Joyce’s agency. Like she’s not adult enough to make decisions or that Dorothy has some total control over her. I just think Joyce needed to more clearly affirm she was okay with it but dialogue like that often doesn’t feel natural.
I felt like the narrative took away Joyce’s agency. I might not be so iffy on it if it didn’t come RIGHT after Joyce asked Dorothy to stay out of her business. And if Dorothy’s primary reason for doing it wasn’t “To keep her from making bad decisions.” and not just…self exploration. It feels like it’s just another way of her Micromanaging Joyce’s life.
It definitely was, most of Dorothys motivation by her own admission was to keep Joyce and Joe apart and to prove to herself that Roz was wrong about her being a slut shaming upholder of the status quo. It was especially controlling with how Dorothy just walked in and told Joyce what to do.
I can agree with that. Dorothy having more selfish motives does kind of make the situation more questionable. I just don’t like the general Dorothy is a manipulator or Joyce is incapable of making decisions allegations. It kind of feels insulting to their relationship.
Their relationship may need some insulting. In-comic and to at least Dorothy’s face, so she can confront her icky patterns.
Yeah, this. Joyce had plenty of opportunity to tell Dorothy to f off, had she so pleased. But she wanted to know where this situation would go, so she stuck through it despite being scared. No clue what’s creepy about that.
Joyce is still in the habit of going along with what dorothy tells her even when she doesn’t want to and letting the resentment build up(ex) her being upset with dorothy outside the pharmacy for being so up in her personal buisness, blowing up at Dorothy and Roz ) so I never liked the argument that it was all up to Joyce to keep telling dorothy no and that Dorothy was right to plan the whole “laundry trip” without asking beforehand for permission.
I’m pretty sure the point of her blowing up about being in her business was at least half if not more narrative mechanism to indicate how having to go through multiple real life veryday changes (glasses, birth control) that she felt conflicted about due to religious upbringing and autism, and feel like she doesn’t have control over herself anymore was amplified by Dorothy constantly trying to shepherd her. In reality, she needed glasses, she couldn’t see anymore, she needed birth control, her periods were extremely painful which could be an indicator of endometriosis, and yes left to her own devices she may have avoided wearing her glasses or taking her pills. But it was also a sign of growth, that she was done being a child and wanted to be independent and responsible for her own choices.
Dotty had a position of power over Joyce that made it creepy for me.
I know people get all bent out of shape over the “mom friend” thing, but their whole relationship reads *to me* that Dotty had put herself in the “responsible for you” position for Joyce.
And doing hanky panky stuff while in that position when consent seems dubious reads squick to me.
And I reaaaaally dislike the “She could just leave” stance, because… No, sometimes you feel like you can’t just leave when this sort of thing happens.
Dorothy putting herself in charge of Joyce doesn’t actually give her power, though?
It does if Joyce thinks it does.
If Joyce sees Dotty as an authority figure, and Dotty uses that to coerce Joyce do something sexual, that’s abuse. Doesn’t matter if she came from it or not.
I didn’t say anything about that last part, that was a weird inclusion.
Their relationship is still fairly new(only about 6 months now) Dorothy has always been a bit controlling and Joyce is in a stage where she doesnt have the church or her mother to tell her how to live her life which she is still adjusting to. I don’t think it’s insulting to admit their flaws. Dorothy took too much control on that instance because shes used to Joyces obedience and Joyce still has trouble setting boundaries with respected authority figures.
To be fair too Dorothy, Joyce has been giving very mixed messages on how much she wants Dorothy to back off. One minute it’s leave me alone, next minute it’s can you research and sign me up for an art class?
Sometimes dumbing of age isn’t about stupid decisions, it’s about making the right decision in a stupid (or stupidly funny) way.
Just research, not sign up, but that was a mixed message.
You are correct in that Joyce is literally given multiple outs. People can feel squicked out about it if they want, but if they think consent wasn’t there, that is them explicitly misremembering what happened, which, it was months ago now, so I get it.
I like how Joe is so big that he is scrunched up by the panel frames (and in universe likely the door frame) so all his hand jesters are with his elbows bent in.
Reminds me of this old Sandra and Woo strip LOL 😂
http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2010/11/22/0219-a-short-history-of-newspaper-comic-strips/
That made me laugh. Thank you.
awe you’re welcome fam 😊
I feel like his scrunched in arms always make him look extra exasperated. lol
Joe’s having new experiences too. https://www.dumbingofage.com/urgent/
“I NEED DETAILS”
“Like you used her to assist you or you did it in tandem? Were you side by side or back to back? Were you using your own fingers or like did you help each other out? Would it still be masturbation then? Maybe if she guided your hand or something I guess. Or did you like…have her on the phone while you did it for moral support?
“industrial machinery was used, that’s all I’ll say!”
“Hot.”
Joe, the only way to make this right is that you and Danny need to Jack off together too. Make it even.
Who said they haven’t already?
They’ve been friends since kindergarten, so they may have done so before, especially when they hit puberty and/or had sex ed.
One thing for sure, I know what I wanna see next bonus strip XD
Which one is getting stuck in the dryer though?
What are you doing, Step-Joe?
Writing Amber’s dialogue for her now?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/tissue/
Well, this happened but i assume danny didn’t go through with it
fair enough
Welp, this’ll be a conversation!
I wonder if he’s going to find out when exactly, because it was the evening of the day Dorothy threatened him at lunch, that she could keep Joyce and him apart instead of trusting Joyce.
But to put the timing in perspective, Joe was going to have sex with Liz because he thought it would rid him of his crush on Joyce. One week ago, that was a Friday, this is the next Friday.
Just because she trusts Joyce doesn’t change the fact she doesn’t trust Joe based on reasonable concerns of his own past and not wanting her to get hurt by him.
You can trust someone and think they’re an adult and still do things like that if you don’t trust the other person.
Joe was an a-hole yes but not a predator or manipulator. Sometimes your friends are going to date people you think are going to break their heart and as long as their not a danger you need to accept that it’s the friends decision to make after warning them of your misgivings.
I was referencing http://www.dumbingofage.com/faceless in which Joe said he trusted Joyce to decide if he was worth it, urged Dorothy to do the same, and then, as I thought was pretty clear, indicated she didn’t.
And I thought it was clear she, at least momentarily, realized that she was trying to tell people what to do with their lives, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions, here: https://www.dumbingofage.com/standing-2/
For all day and a half of it, hahaha
I thought the Dorothy/Joyce scene was cute. It read a little more awkwardly day-to-day, when you don’t know where it’s going, but all that really happened was that Dorothy helped her friend (who absolutely needed help) for slightly askew reasons. Reading it archivally, it’s adorable. Dorothy later realized she was being askew and stopped trying to patronize to Joyce about her love life, and everyone moved on.
The “this is predatory” stuff is… well, I won’t get into it, because there’s plenty of arguments already up above you can get into if you want to argue. I don’t. I just wanted to voice that I liked the scene, because as much as I sometimes feel like Willis enjoys starting discourse here, I’m sure they also like hearing positive words as much as anyone. X3
I feel like the comment section would have far more reasonable opinions if strips were dropped weekly, seven at a time.
I really look forward to a new comic every morning though. And I completely lack the discipline to just read one a day. If there’s ice cream in the freezer I’m gonna have some.
I don’t mean to imply that Willis should do it that way, only that the comment section would relate differently to the story and characters.
I read it mostly all at once, I took a break around when they ran into Carla, and waited a few days after the twitter description seemed like the scene was over.
I do have a reasonable opinion, but it’s one you seem to think is unreasonable and that people wouldn’t have if they read it all at once.
Like I said, there’s plenty of people eager to debate about it. I just liked the scene and wanted to make a space for people to talk about liking it without the endless squabbles. “Agree to disagree” is a much faster way to say what you said. X3
Oh, sorry, I just noticed you were replying to someone else! I’m occasionally a dummy.
For the sake of the joke and to keep the narrative short, a lot of the discussion around consent is dropped. If somebody acted like that in real life, it would be pushing a boundary at the very minimum. I think people get too caught up in judging the comic with real-life standards.
+1
“not sure if outraged or aroused” –( Joe, probably
Probably a whole slew of emotions there.
“Wait that’s not right, she’s JOYCE…”
“Wait… But.. *I* eventually want…”
*Bluescreen*
Poor Joyce is mortified 🤣
Book Title: Wait, you masturbated with Dorothy?!
Joyce, I don’t think Joe’s problem is that you masturbated with Dorothy, I think the problem is that you masturbated with Dorothy, and he wasn’t there to see it
Joe’s kinda killin’ it here? He’s hearing her, comprehending her words, and asking relevant follow-up questions, without twisting anything in some insane direct that makes no sense. It’s like he gives a fuck what she’s saying to him? Which isn’t a high bar to clear, obviously, but sometimes these characters may as well be speaking different languages to each other, so it’s nice to see a normal conversation.
I like these two more and more as time goes on.
Oh! And let’s not undersell Joyce managing to come out and say it explicitly. She’s shy about it, but she’s not dissolving into brownsauce or freaking out and fleeing the scene of the crime. Like she trusts him with this information or something? It’s like they’re characters who talk to each other?
Brown sauce? What is that, like her family’s secret recipe or something? XD
It should be.
Nah, it’s an extremely strained reference to an old episode of OneyPlays. As part of an anecdote that’s pretty gross and involves the host getting blackout drunk and falling asleep on the toilet, [fill in the blanks], he mentions being relieved something even worse didn’t happen, and his co-host makes a joke about him thinking “Oh, thank God. He dissolved into brownsauce.”
It’s funnier in action. Or possibly not, if you’re not a fan of the older Newgrounds style of humor.
The Brits call it HP sauce, but A1 steak sauce here in ‘Murica is kind of the same idea.
I’ve noticed that she is a degree or two more open talking with him than most everyone else, even before Life Drawing Class. Despite the image he presents to everyone [else], he’s a good listener.
Shes getting even more blushing in the last panel.
How many strips in a row with Joyce blushing is this?
Never too many.
There’s a camp of “Dorothy is a predator” and another that’s sort of “What Dorothy did was great why does anyone have a problem?” But to me it just seemed she was a bit of a controlling know-it-all, which is totally on-brand for her. And does not necessarily signal bad intentions.
Joyce is sorting out a lifetime of judgment and shame and that’s not gonna go away in a moment. So far Joe’s handling things really well and in a kindly way. At the beginning of the strip years ago, I wouldn’t have predicted that.
Yeah, I think there’s a third camp of us who largely agree with you, that Dorothy did something a little weird by trying to take charge of a situation that she doesn’t actually have control over. But it would just be exhausting to try to convince people that there’s not an actual power imbalance between two 18 year olds who live in the same dorm. So I say nothing.
Welcome to the camp!
Yeah I’m here. Hi, friends.
Why she didn’t say “Only once!” ??? Is there something I don’t know?
Why is the “only once ” relevant? The thing that makes it ok is that it happened before she and Joe were dating, not how many times it happened.
It’s still relevant info, you wanna know your partner’s past relationships with people who are a) still in both of your lives b) hate your guts
Ah yes, the Kidd Kraddick euphemism for sexual intercourse. RIP Kidd, been 10 years now.
My amusement that Joe has NO IDEA what the problem is here grows with each passing strip. Like, he can’t even CONCEPTUALIZE why masturbating might be a problem, why you’d need a weird euphemism, or how the hell Dorothy is involved at all.
Of COURSE she’s wearing the bi shirt.
I didn’t even NOTICE that until now, HOLY CRAP
You’re misreading the room, Joyce; Joe is upset, because he didn’t get to watch it.
The thing that’s weird to me about the whole ‘Dorothy is a moustache-twirling villain who cannot stand to see Joyce acting independently’ angle is that it simultaneously takes as granted that Joyce is so easily pressured into sexual acts that she is not ready for that repeatedly reminding her that her consent is revokable at any time might as well just be chloroforming her, but also that Dorothy trying to keep Joyce from falling in with a KNOWN SEX PEST (as a generous description from Dorothy’s perspective) is a ‘selfish’ motivation.
I’m not saying Dorothy was right, but her main problems are A: having a different subjective experience than us comic readers, and B: overcorrection. She saw Joyce (vulnerable former attempted-rape victim who is in several ways still naive) seeming to fall under the sway of a man she has known for YEARS as a sex-obsessed creep. The kind of guy who looks at a girl like Joyce and decides the way to ‘fix’ her is to ‘break her in’ with a good banging (note: literally Joe’s words in early comics). Dorothy raised objections, which I don’t think is RIGHT, but is absolutely understandable. And got shit on for being sex-negative. So she took that criticism and promptly overcorrected into the opposite end of the spectrum for a sex-positive way to defend Joyce from what Dorothy saw as a threat.
And then when it turned out Joyce wasn’t JUST horny but actually has a budding genuine relationship with Joe (and also with Dorothy’s own shit going on), Dorothy admitted her wrong and dropped it.
what’s really weird to me is when criticism of Dorothy’s actions is mischaracterized as “Dorothy is a mustache-twirling villain”.
Did Joe agreeing with Sarah that he wants to “fix” Joyce by making her cum make Joe a creep? I think so. Dorothy also tried to “fix” Joyce by making her cum, and I think that was super creepy.
Dorothy’s main problem is she is ordinary, but thinks she’s extraordinary. That’s some relatable growing pains stuff, even when she makes terrible and creepy mistakes.
Well that’s not what’s happening here because I’m not responding to criticism of Dorothy’s actions. I criticized Dorothy’s actions myself, in fact. I’m responding to the thing I said I was responding to. So. Y’know. Rock on.
All criticism is red-eyed hatred. All reservations are criminal charges. All objections are threats.
Honestly, I agree with your read. Like– alright, her motivations were a little condescending; she was assuming Joyce was just into Joe because she was horny.
On the other hand, they’re both eighteen year old girls in the same dorm who have gone through a lot together, and who trust each other. And either Joyce is an adult, who can give and withdraw consent as she pleases, or Joyce is a sheltered child, and shouldn’t be allowed to date.
Joyce is an adult. She gave consent, and, later, took the reigns of the experience, kicking Dorothy out of the room. I kind of find the argument that Joyce is too attached to Dorothy to say no to be infantalizing- she Has said no to Dorothy before, she Has established and held boundaries with Dorothy before, and if she couldn’t meaningfully consent with Dorothy, by that same logic, she can’t meaningfully consent with Joe.
I mean… so are we gonna just gloss over the fact that Joyce has been regularly masturbating in a public room? A room that everyone in the dorm needs to use all the time? Like… Like what if we found out Joe was doing that? Would he still be considered datable material?
Does it count as regular if it’s only been a day?