Yup. We started making out in my car the school parking lot which led to activities and I left the car on with the radio on while we were in the back seat.
The battery died and we had to call her brother to jump my car…
That happened with my first girlfriend, but in an “under construction” subdivision. Had to walk up to the road to find some stranger to jump us off. REALLY embarrassing.
A bad first experience in anything can ruin the thing for you. If you choke on the first time you eat a grape, you may not want to have grapes again. It is also common if people get horribly sick due to appendicitis to not want to eat the food they had right before that, as your body tends to link the two together even though they aren’t actually linked.
The first time a woman shut me down she said, “The first time is shit, and I don’t want to be responsible for the worst experience of your life.” Now granted, I wasn’t exactly well adjusted in this area, but that sentence haunted me for years.
That’s messed up.
And for any first-timers reading this, my first times definitely weren’t shitty or anywhere close to a worst experience, what the heck. (Mine was special, and neato, and empowering because it was all about going at exactly my pace.) Please do not believe that your first time has to be a bad time.
But so can a bad 27th experience…
The first time having to be the most special experience is so overrated.
I don’t even remember my first time. It was insignificant tbh. Not bad, but not good, obviously.
Stuff has only gotten better since then, because i know better what i want and who with.
But hey, the earlier you catch on to going into sexual encounters with enthusiasm, and sure about who you’re with, the better. I do hope teens can make better experiences because of better sex ed and empowerment!
I know somebody who was tracking her fertility, because she wanted to get pregnant, and she found she was most fertile during her period. She mentioned this to her mother, who was like, “yeah, that’s why you and your brother are 10 years apart”.
Also I know somebody with long periods, and she and her partner decided that periods really aren’t such a big deal that they’d like to wait two weeks to have sex when they want to; they can just use a towel, it’s fine.
What do men’s dressing rooms sound like, do they talk about sports or what
Wait … people talk in dressing rooms where you are? My experience with them usually has vocalizations limited to “Hmm… nah.” or “Oooh… nice.” And the like. Maybe with an occasional “What do you think?” followed by the others.
Meh, my sexual debut was a nothingburger. People built it up like it was going to be this life altering thing that could devastate my life if I wasted it on someone, but I just decided I was done being “a virgin” and had sex with the guy I was dating.
It wasn’t great, it wasn’t awful, I don’t regret just throwing it at someone to be rid of it. Didn’t seem new and powerful, didn’t change who I was, just gave me fun new ways to show affection.
I had the “sex isn’t really a big deal” lesson taught to me, but I also didn’t actually understand how that could be possible until I started having it. It seemed too important. Congrats on learning that lesson before you had experience; I think most people have a hard time with that.
exactly my point! THE FIRST TIME is overrated and making experiences is great, as long as everyone involved is enthusiastic about making them! (and has some basic knowledge on how to avoid STIs including babies 😛 )
It’s definitely a bad topic to have in public and in Dorothy’s case also passive aggressive since she knows Joyce won’t likely refute her on this when other friends are watching.
Yeah, but the way it sounds, and also I think she’s said some things to Roz about Roz making a sex tape, so from Roz’ perspective, pretty legit observation.
But yeah, this comic always brings weird concepts to me, like agreeing with anything Roz says. Yet here we are, she’s not that far from the mark, I think.
I think that needs to be considered in light of Dorothy’s concerns about even her own more conventional sexual activity being used against her politically, which we’ve seen come up a few times.
Joyce cannot have this conversation without being slutshamed because her internalised slut-shamer is on a hair trigger. You only have to remind Joyce that sex is a thing she Could Do for her to be slutshamed. Introjection is a helluva thing.
I’m torn on this. There’s a difference between controlling behavior and giving advice. I think Dorothy is on the edge of skirting that line but she hasn’t crossed it. This is just her being annoying about it. Controlling would be Dorothy trying to take that choice away.
Agreed. Dorothy hasn’t seen Joe’s character development like we had. Joe from the earliest strips going after “newly atheist, on birth control now” Joyce would be really unhealthy for Joyce. Especially since Joyce still has trauma from an attempted rape mixed in with her upbringing.
I think people are so critical of Dorothy because we’ve seen Joe grow and also seen him agonizing over this crush and the risk to Joyce’s wellbeing. If Joyce were considering early strips Joe, which is what Dorothy believes, I think we’d be more on Dorothy’s side.
I do think that Joe has grown enough and had enough experiences he could be a very healthy first sexual partner for Joyce. But he’s got some bad history that is fair to be skeptical of.
It’s also because she’s not doing it well or smoothly and we’ve been seeing that from her a lot lately.
Her intentions are good I think, but her implementation is backfiring.
Dorothy hasn’t even asked Joyce, “Why do you like Joe?” She went immediately into telling Joyce what to do without even finding out the context of the situation.
Even if Joe was still a scumbag and joyce still has trauma to work through its not an excuse for Dorothy to take agency away from Joyce. I personally think this behavior of Dorothy’s is already controlling to an unhealthy degree. Her bringing up a topic tinged with shame is a form of emotional control because she’s deliberatly reminding joyce about the shame she personally associates with the pill in order to get Joyce to alter her behavior since joyce made it clear she wasn’t going to let Dorothy’s disapproval of Joe sway her. Joyce has made it clear Dorothy’s level of management is unwanted in her personal life and Dorothy isn’t backing off this is definitely an attempt to control her friends choices.
Yeah, I think Joyce’s line in the sand for friendly favors and advice was actually really good earlier in the storyline (Dorothy signing her up for life drawing and acquiring supplies on her behalf, because they both acknowledged that taking that step personally was stressful for Joyce but that the overall experience of the class would be a positive, although that was still an overreach since Joyce only asked her for the smaller favor of a list of classes).
Dorothy maybe didn’t see it as the line it was, despite the fact it came right on the tail of Joyce expressing her extreme discomfort in the pharmacy and LITERALLY telling her that she wanted space, but instead an invitation to keep being self-declared mom-friend after a short (under 24 hour) break.
Whether she’s doing it consciously or not (and I agree that slut-shaming isn’t the exact type of shaming going on), I feel like if she’s saying that so loudly that someone that far away can clearly hear her Dorothy is totally playing on Joyce’s shame. Even if random classmates weren’t able to hear them, she knows Joyce, she knows Joyce’s hang-ups, saying it for Sarah and Becky to hear is an attempt to shame Joyce out of doing anything with Joe all in its own.
I agree, Sarah bringing it up was a bit weirdly worded for a public conversation too but she atleast sounds sincere. Dorothy is straight up implying that Joyce is only on the pill for casual sex, something she of all people knows joyce doesn’t want people to just assume about her. She’s taking a personal topic Joyce trusted her with and using it against her.
No, Dorothy is warning Joyce not to get involved with Joe, even though she’s on birth control. If Dorothy is slut shaming anyone it’s Joe. She has a real problem with Joe because she thinks he doesn’t care about consequences. Of course, Joe cares about consequences as much as (or maybe even more than) Dorothy. That’s why he avoids them. The irony of the situation is that Joe’s the one who is most at risk of getting hurt in this situation.
Dorothy has already told Joyce what she thinks of Joe. Using the topic of the pill to have yet another conversation telling Joyce she’s not supposed to get with Joe while making it sound to anyone in earshot that she thinks Joyce only took the pill for having sex is really a really awful thing for Dorothy to do to joyce nomatter how well intentioned she’s being.
The time gap between the last panel with these and this one is a matter of minutes. Dorothy and joyce were walking from lunch to pick up Sarah and Becky after their class. It’s not ‘yet another’, this iron is still hot.
We know it’s about Joe specifically, but it’s phrased in a generic slut-shamey way. “Let’s not get out of hand or anything, and not immediately jump into something we might regret”.
She could have said something like “don’t let Joe talk his way into your pants just because you’re on the pill, because Joe’s a jerk and you can’t trust him”.
But no! She said things about how Joyce could get “out of hand”, and do something that we might regret. Not Joyce might regret, but we might regret. She asserts she has a right to control Joyce’s sex life and that Joyce can only take lovers that she approves of, otherwise Dotty might regret Joyce’s choices. The heck?
Consider that Dorothy may be unsure just who knows about Joyce + Joe. She may be allusive to protect Joyce’s privacy. They all know about the medication.
I read that “we” as the “medical we”. As in: “well, Mr. Patient, how are we feeling today?” (I just realized that I have no idea why people use “we” that way, but they do.) So, maybe expressing “duty of care” rather than control/controlled. Still an inappropriate assumption but in a different way.
Feels weird to say, but I too am with Roz on this one. This is absolutely not Dorothy’s place to comment on unprovoked, and is super shitty of her to do so when she knows that that is not what Joyce is taking them for and is something she was pretty specifically worried would be misinterpretted that way.
This honestly comes off as Dorothy trying to provoke Becky to chime in and take her side in the conversation like she tried to do before with the ‘best friend’ declaration.
ya, Joyce can’t/won’t respond without either admitting she’s super horny, or revealing she and Joe are potentially a thing. To Becky and Sarah. Then some mysterious ways and Becky is on Dorothy’s side. I don’t think it would have worked out, even if Roz hadn’t interrupted.
I think you’re hearing Sarah’s voice in a different tone than BarerMender & I do. Remember, Sarah is basically Joyce “big sister” and knows her very well. It’s not far-fetched to find it unbelievable that Joyce took a pill on her own after the way she demonstrated over it earlier. “You *actually* did it by yourself? Wow. Congrats.”
wouldn’t be surprised if the piling on by dorothy and sarah caused joyce to blow up at roz, though at least she (hopefully) wouldn’t be the type to take this information and use it to her advantage somehow or spread it around
Dorothy’s secretly been the slut judging one the whole time but fundie Joyce acted as an effective smokescreen. The dark truths have been revealed. Next up…Dina’s secret gambling addiction!
One day Dina had to climb on top of Leo’s shoulders to watch the game she was betting on. But she was a bit too heavy for him, so she wound up slipping off when she leaned over to one side. She climbed up again, though, before she paid him her stake for the game. She had to: the word was “Pay Leo on tall agee.”
But dina is secretly seething at all this money she’s forking over to her bookie. She’s trying to become a gangster herself, so that she can boss Leo around without having to give him a cut. Her mantra :”Pay Leo until a G”
Dina found out you can play crane games online and came across one that had reasonably accurate dinosaur plushies (allowing for the limits of being constructed out of fabric on any kind of scale).
1) Dorothy not your place, we don’t know how that argument ended, but that’s still something that you shouldn’t be so unintentionally/intentionally condescending about.
2) Roz, also not your place, not part of the friend group and literally just a bystander walking by as it was happening. Also oddly direct and insulting.
3) . . .I’m actually really interested in seeing how this goes. Considering. . .well Roz and Joe **have** slept together, and considering how Joyce and Joe are making eyes at one another, that whole thing might come back to the fore in a really really interesting way so I’m intrigued on where this is going.
I think their last interaction was when Leslie gave Roz an impromptu substitute teaching role one day in Gender Studies class. Joe brought up his list again, and Roz replied simply “Joe, don’t rank women.”
I suspect Roz isn’t really a fan of Joe anymore, but she also doesn’t think that he’s actually threatening.
I think you are right about Roz’s opinions on Joe (personally I think he doesn’t really matter to her even.)
But Roz didn’t simply reply “Joe, don’t rank women.” to Joe bringing up his list.
She replied “All women are tens” to him bring up his list.
The “Don’t rate women, Joe” was in response to him retorting “Even Tomhi Lahren?”, after a beat panel of her with a terse expression, implying that the latter was Roz speak for “No, she isn’t but I don’t want to admit that (and also I still don’t like you having made your list)”.
I didn’t realize until reading this comment that I want Joyce and Roz to be Eskimo sisters. I hope that term isn’t derogatory to Arctic natives or something. I just mean them both having a shared sexual companion in their experiences. Seems like a dynamic ripe for humor.
Gotta imagine “Eskimo sisters” is straight up *shudders* levels of derogatory. I honestly hadn’t heard the term before, but got what it means from this. “Eskimo” is already generally considered derogatory, and now we’re going to add sexual connections to use it in a phrase? Seems pretty gross, would suggest retiring that one.
Eskimo is a slur against Inuit people, so any usage of the word is offensive. The term e***** sisters was almost certainly used historically to invite more discrimination against indigenous people, so we should not say that either.
Anyways, what sort of hijinks are you envisioning here between Roz and Joyce?
Thanks for the insight. Yeah it doesn’t really feel right to use that term but I can’t think of good slang for this idea. That being said Joyce and Roz seem so different but having the same taste in men is just fun. This is consistent too since Roz has also shown interest in Jacob. It reveals things about both of them. Perhaps Joyce is more perverted and Roz more vanilla than they let on. We at least know that’s true for Joyce.
A term I’ve heard before, but probably just as a one-off line in a show or something, is “sausage sisters,” and apparently the term “pogo sisters” exists too.
I think both Joyce and Joe are expecting to take things slowly. Joyce probably still has strong ideas about how relationships develop, regardless of how she got them or what her glands may be telling her right now. And this is a relationship that Joe values and wants to keep — I think he’s afraid of falling into his usual pattern and blowing it up.
Not to mention that taking it slowly lets Mr. Willis keep us in suspense for years….
Dorothy is definitely being a busy-body here. I realize she’s projecting her own dislike of Joe onto Joyce, but she should check her own house before telling Joyce to keep hers clean!
If this was an over the top teen drama with joyce having pettiness, i can imagine an alternate timeline when it’s like “I fucked both your exes (danny/walky) and they were mediocre, now i’ll fuck joe’s brains out”
prior to this episode I thought Becky’s “you’re my rival” thing was really just a bit. Now that it really seems like Dorothy is very controlling of Joyce I’m starting to think it’s not. Also I’m realizing that I don’t feel like i could ever trust or be friends with someone who was planning on trying to become a big politician. They have to have their friend group be optically perfect, they have to make no mistakes, which means realistically you have to be somewhat controlling of your friends or just never really get close to anyone. And I say this as someone who *was* friends with someone like that. He started pulling back from the friendship when he started actually making progress to his goal.
Well it’s not the long-sought-after Joyce/Dorothy ship because why would that need birth control… obviously Dorothy is fighting the temptation for a FMF threesome with Joyce and someone else?
The ‘We’ might just be because that is often how mothers talk to their kids, and Dorothy takes her roll as Joyce mom #3 very seriously (her dorm fridge is 85% lunchables).
would be interesting to see if anyone was petty enough to wait and say ‘i told you so’ but that’d be annoying/a friendship ender for me personally, not that i’d really tell anyone about any hookups, close mutual friends or not
Yeah that’s been my theory since someone brought it up a few weeks ago and backed it up with an otherwise hard to explain Dorothy reaction to Joe bragging about how people come to him for sexy shenanigans but then also judge him for it.
In her head, sure, but to anyone outside of her own head it’s Joyce, and it’s preying on Joyce’s religious trauma so I’m not letting it slide on that one.
Unless her retort tomorrow is “I’m not slut shaming Joyce, I’m slut-shaming Joe” in which case still shitty, but at least the conversation can open up about why it’s shitty instead of her just locking down.
Context is paramount. Maybe a better phrase would be to say, “People should have the freedom to make their own mistakes, so long as they do not harm others.”
In Dorothy’s case I feel it is trying to protect Joyce from Joe, whom she strongly feels would be a bad match that would leave Joyce heartbroken (also it is hinted she is maybe jealous of Joe gaining Joyce’s affection and/or time).
In general, well social constructs and norms don’t all come from religion (hence why going topless in some cultures was historically fine but not in others and why tattoos are considered cool in some subcultures but unsightly in others – I don’t think the bible has a lot to say on the topic). Also, AIDS kind of put a big damper on casual sex.
That’s probably part of why Dorothy phrases it generically, rather than framing it around Joe, even though that’s what she’s thinking of. Doesn’t want to reveal Joyce’s interest to anyone Joyce hasn’t let in on it yet.
Which is nice of her, even if it makes the rest of what she’s saying even more awkward.
Ironically, I feel like everyone else will have a more positive reaction to Joe/Joyce than Dorothy did, and it will make her feel like she’s crazy. Becky might’ve had some decent interactions with him in class, or seen how he interacts with Joyce and might actually not have that bad of an opinion of him. Sarah has actually had a few interesting interactions with him and might know that there’s more to him than just being a horndog.
Dorothy is actually the one who’s been the most out of the loop on New Joe.
Excellent. Perfect time for Roz shenanigans. Is she going to be unnecessarily abrasive? Absolutely. Is she going to be downright terrible? Maybe, maybe not. Bring it on
there’s always one person who inappropriately inserts themselves in situations/always has to comment on something, happens a lot with teens/young adults but a lot of ppl don’t outgrow it either
Becky is the only one here whose opinion is being expressed properly, at the moment. Which is to say, she’s currently keeping it the fuck to herself. I’m exhausted with this “Everyone has an opinion about Joyce’s body and won’t shut up about it” nonsense. It’s written fine, don’t get me wrong, it’s just that the portrayed behavior really grates on me as someone who spent decades getting scrutinised for anything people could justify.
I’m not saying this isn’t possible but considering Danny’s relationship s with both of them I would assume this would have come up before now if it happened. Like for this scenario to work Joe would have to keep him banging a girl a secret which I don’t think he was capable of last semester.
unless they both got drunk or it was a time when danny was happy with sal/amber to not care anymore, i think joe respects his best friend enough to not hookup with his ex, even if he was put on the ‘do’ list way back
The ‘we’ honestly does sound possessive of Dorothy in this context because whether she means it as a friend or the general we it comes off as her telling Joyce she has to consider Dorothy and the rest of her friends opinions no matter what she does. “Don’t get yourself into a situation where we have to spend time picking up the pieces Joyce” is what the underlying message here sounds like.
As much as I feel for Joe and am happy with Joyce’s growing confidence, nothing has actually shown Dorothy why she’s wrong about Joe. She’s not even slut-shaming, she’s literally worrying about Joyce being another target for a very predatory individual (who has gone character development but like… does anyone besides Amber know this?)
Not that I fault Roz for coming to the wrong conclusion… well okay, I do because she literally is butting herself into the conversation. Okay, I think Roz means well, but unlike Dorothy, Roz literally knows nothing about any of these people and her morality is… less than great?
Oh and the fact that Dorothy rightly pointed out that Joyce sucks at relationships. The toxic relationship with Ethan and literally trying to get another boy to cheat on his girlfriend with her… okay, Joyce also isn’t a great person behind that perky veneer huh.
Eh, people will disappoint you if you put them on a pedestal. That’s more of a “you” problem than a “people” imo. (And by “you” i mean, Charlie Kaufman? Probably?)
It’s more a statement about people’s tendency for people to only show their most positive traits when first getting to know someone. As you learn more and more about them they slowly fail to live up to the expectations they set because they purposely didn’t show you that.
Hell, I only show YOU guys my best parts. If you really got to know me I’d be a lot more disappointing.
Oh, sure, but that’s to be expected? I feel like when i get to know people, provided i do like them well enough (i don’t normally bother getting to know the others) my experience hasn’t been disappointment usually so much as empathy and tenderness for their flaws, and greater trust too as *they* also get to know the whole me, warts and all, and somehow fail to run away. It’s not always fun or comfortable (people initially hide their flaws for good reason) but if there’s respect and love on both sides, well.. Why would you be disappointed?
I guess the “love and respect” caveat makes all the difference.
Joyce grew up in a subculture that has various bad ideas about relationships to go with the bad ideas about relationships floating around in the wider American culture. So it’s no surprise things went poorly with Ethan who was having his own crisis at the time. Or that she may have been acting out some “nice girl versus mean girl” thing with Jacob.
Honestly, I think she handled the relationship with Ethan pretty well. It was toxic in nature – which she didn’t know at the start and he wanted to continue it after she found out, for his own messed up reasons, but I don’t think she handled any of the actual relationship aspects that badly.
I don’t think Ethan and Joyce had a toxic relationship. Quite the opposite actually since Ethan confided his sexuality to her and they both continued the relationship in the naive at best hope he would convert somehow. He even continued walking with her after their inevitable split. The relationship was problematic but not toxic because they both did care about each other. They might even still be dating if they were more sexually compatible. I think it’s a bit of a missed opportunity Joyce hasn’t interacted with Ethan since Mike’s death. She’d be a great support to him as they have good chemistry.
JOYCE knows this, and that’s the most relevant thing here. Joyce knows exactly what Joe was, and she likes him now. The real issue is that Dorothy 1) doesn’t even consider the possibility that she might not have all the facts and 2) Joyce needs to be managed because she is an irrational dum-dum.
Also, Roz’s morality is fine, unless you fundamentally consider sex an issue of good vs evil.
Joe isn’t predatory, he’s a himbo/slut. Being predatory implies the use of deceit or manipulation. He straight up says what he’s interested in and if the girl isn’t interested he moves on.
I can’t remember, where you the one really into this whitewashing of Joe before? Like, who completely reimagined that date that Joyce and Joe went on way back when?
This sounds familiar. Wasn’t there some nonsense about Joe hitting on Connie during the date, even though all he did was notice her cleavage and instantly got his ass beat for it?
No, I chimed in too. Like, if I go to an insurance agent and say “I’d like to buy some insurance,” is that predatory? What makes Joe unpleasant is that he assumes everyone is an insurance agent until informed otherwise. It works now and then, but rubs a lot of people the wrong way in the process.
No, he doesn’t. He was most definitely not upfront with Joyce about what he wanted on that first date and was talking behind her back about ‘upgrading her from a four to a ten’ with his dick.
I feel like that face says “I…hadn’t actually considered that.” In the abstract, sure, but like…the fact that she could really just, go do it? That’s only just sinking in
Joyce absolutely needed the pills for purposes of pain management, regardless of anything else that might result. So Dorothy helped her get them and take them.
I’m sure Dorothy doesn’t regret that at all. But she’s more recently concluded that Joyce might be interested in having sex, and has decided to mom out over that as well.
Yeah, it’s kind of weird of Sarah to say that. Even without Dorothy’s follow up, which overshadows it, you’d expect Joyce would react badly, given her concerns about the “hussy pills”.
I was thinking earlier today about how there should be more room for discussion about how regrettable sex can be traumatic. (This was after reading one of those “regret is not rape” statements that some asshole said, and like, that’s a different discussion, but it spurred this.)
Anyway, I love Joyce and Joe together and do want them to have sex a some point, but I can see Dorothy’s concern. I think this is a shitty way of voicing it and that it comes off patronizing and controlling, but I can see where she’d have legitimate concern.
Add another 100% to it. If Dorothy were coming at this as Joyce’s equal from a place of respect, and not Joyce’s fake-mom from a place of smothery affection and superiority, I think she’d be doing better.
i mean, college seems the ideal time for ‘regretting’ a relationship/hookup as long as you’re safe enough to not get pregnant/an std (I could never understand how ppl can have drunken hookups, a bit tipsy maybe but fully blacking out seems scary enough even with friends/at home)
There’s a spectrum of regret, is what I’m saying. Also, sometimes people make safe choices and still get pregnant or an STI, so let’s remember there’s some luck involved too.
sex doesn’t seem worth the trouble to me lol, other than emotional intimacy i’d rather just have like a sterilized android or so lol (tho apparently there’s a whole niche group of ppl getting stds on purpose? either for kink/thrill/danger reasons or just to get it over with? lol, if only we lived in a world where sex wasn’t stigmatized or had negative consequences)
It’d be fantastic if people were like… Less paranoid about sex. “Oh, are they gonna regret it? Am I gonna regret it? Is a hypothetical internet fundie gonna make a judgemental post about it? Is that a cock or a syringe full of Gay Petroleum they’re putting in me?” And so on and so forth.
Everyone gets so stuck on the “thinking about thinking about how other people think about thinking about it” part, they wind up scared of the most natural thing ever.
Well ya see, when two guys (it’s apparently gotta be guys, but the study didn’t specify if they had to be cis so YMMV) really wanna get it on, they can make an offering to the petrol deity known as Yo’shib’el-muhatu. If the offering is accepted, one of their dongs will develop a hinge over the course of 48 hours, which can then be opened to reveal a large, blunt syringe. This syringe takes about 300 pumps to build sufficient pressure, and once that’s built up, one of the guys can press a little button on the top, which will deliver a payload of approximately 7 liters of randomly scented petroleum. In some cultures, the scent of the petrol is considered a sign of a person’s fortune, but there’s very little proof that this has any truth to it.
Remember that blacking out usually isn’t planned, as it’s basically just memory loss, which means sex while blacked out usually isn’t planned; even if someone knows they have a tendency to blackout under certain situations, the time in which it occurs should be hard to plan around.
I wonder if you’re conflating blacking out with passing out, though I think passed out sex is planned even more rarely (unfortunately rape of a passed out person is planned all too often and I only even mention it to make sure no one thinks I’m talking about the latter).
Yeah, part of the thing with really drunk sex is that your judgement is impaired (even if it’s not black out, so that you remember it later.) And very likely, so is the other person’s judgement, so they aren’t any better at deciding it’s a bad idea, even if they’re well-intentioned.
It’s scary, but only in theory or in the aftermath. In the drunken moment, you’re into it and it seems like a good idea.
Obviously predators take advantage of this, but that isn’t all drunk sex.
Unfortunately I fear Dorothy is deliberately communicating though hints because joyce has already rejected her upfront conversation so now she’s resorting to bringing up shame. Between the pharmacy trip and that strip awhile ago where Dorothy noted joyce more ashamed of her sexuality them stealing a boyfriend (jacob) Dorothy knows how effective shame works on joyce which makes its more aggravating that she’s using it to make joyce act how she wants here.
Also Dorothy ironically feels threatened by Joyce’s fledgling sense of agency and self-assertion, despite encouraging it in Joyce for so long, as it is another sign of her unraveling sense of self-worth and put-togetherness that she long prided herself on.
huh, i havent thought about how *roz* would react to joe/joyce news. she’s not really in either of their social circles, just a classmate. but she is very opinionated and doesnt always know how to keep those opinions to herself, even in situations where it’s been downright hurtful
i gotta admit joe and joyces coming together story reminds me juuuust enough of my own relationship that i think i may have feelings about it that are stronger than most. hell one of my nicknames is joe!! but i’m trying to stay cool about it and see it unfold
Honestly, probably pretty similarly to Dorothy, if phrased very differently. At least if she figures out that Joyce isn’t looking for just a casual hookup, but thinks Joe’s really serious about her.
also roz and dorothy have always butted heads, so while i think they both make good points and are coming from a good place, i feel like it will be less of a discussion and more of a fight. especially with joyce *right there next to them*
Joyce and Dorothy are good friends. Friends get to give each other unsolicited advice. Friends get to ignore friends advice if they want to, at the risk of a “told you so.”
Roz shouldn’t interjrct but Dorothy also shouldn’t be using Joyce’s personal insecurity about being on the pill to shame her into feeling she must remain chaste. She’s just now attempting to slowly break free from her own cultural constraint only for Dorothy the move in and apply her own.
A thing I ask myself every time someone defends the level of infantilism and controlling nonsense that comes out of Joyce’s friend group.
Personally, I wouldn’t remain friends with people who treated me like a dumb little puppy who needed constant oversight. If I make mistakes, those are mine to make. If I want advice, I will reach out for it. If someone I am friends with constantly offers unwanted advice, even after being told to crawl out of my ass about something? I would not continue to be around them.
Boundaries are a thing. Friendship is not a free pass to override them. I think your friendships and my friendships work differently, so that’s probably the disconnect there.
I do know how friendship works, but I don’t accept that as a good reason not to intervene when someone sounds super slut shamey to someone else, especially when that someone else has expressed they trust you (as Joyce did when she invited Roz to her party).
Ok, I don’t see anything wrong with Dorothy’s statement, except for the parental “we will regret it” (unless Dorothy means that she would blame herself for pushing Joyce onto the dick carousel by offering the pills). It could very well be about alcohol and car accident.
Another thing who talks about someone taking birth control pills in a public place and loud enough that the person at the other end of the stairs can join the discussion?!
If I remember correctly, Joyce still thinks it’s something embarrassing. next time make this a discussion on gender studies jeez
People talk about things in public you’d think they’d want to keep private all the time. Especially if cell phones are involved. I’ve sat on the bus and heard people air their relationship dirty laundry, discuss acquiring drugs, mention confidential legal information, and more.
lol well i know recording ppl in public might be illegal depending on the state laws, but seems like you could easily make money becoming a snitch for ppl esp if you could be considered ‘invisible’ to the average person lol
Dor’s comment definitely comes off as being in poor taste imo. Joyce’s major anxiety has been that people will look down on her as sexually promiscuous for taking birth control. Dorothy finding out she started taking it and immediately going the heavily-implied “don’t heaux it up” route (although, as others have pointed out, it’s likely directed at her relationship with Joe) could just affirm those anxieties. I suspect it may not help that Roz is coming in with the “slut-shaming” accusation because, while not totally out of line, Joyce might hear that and conclude that she’s the “slut” that Dorothy’s trying to “shame” in this scenario.
I can appreciate her feeling the need to have a conversation with Joyce about sexual health and safety (because there’s exactly 0% chance her parents espoused any teachings beyond abstinence only), but this isn’t it
Dorothy didn’t “find out” Joyce is taking birth control, she went with Joyce to get the freaking pills.
This is completely about Joe and Dorothy is trying to be tactful and is ending up coming off negative in a different way.
Okay, simmer down.
If you reread my comment, you’ll notice I wrote that Dorothy found out Joyce started taking her birth control, which is not the same physically having the pills. Dorothy wasn’t in the room with Jen and Becky when Joyce revealed she took her birth control for the first time. It stands to reason that this is the first time she’s hearing about that and her comments come off as inappropriate to me
It may not be Dorothy or Roz’s business, but Joyce is new to all this and still has a lifetime of misinformation to sort through and plenty of men who’d love to take advantage. If something bad happens Dorothy is more likely to do damage control than Roz and that’s the difference. Roz doesn’t care about consequences.
That feels harsh on Roz. Dorothy is definitely more likely to deal with any fallout, but Roz did reach out to offer a resource to Joyce based on the somewhat vague “something happened at that party” knowledge she had.
And, even though Dorothy isn’t slut-shaming, she’s still policing Joyce, which is [i]bad.[/i] Roz is right about respecting Joyce’s autonomy, here, even if she’s not aware they’re not talking about sexual autonomy.
Taking a break from piling on Dorothy to say Sarah could stand to back off a bit here too. A bit rude really. (And I don’t want to hear the “that’s just Sarah being sardonic excuse. It’s still not a nice way to treat your friend with something you know they’re having a tough time with)
Yeah. If today’s strip started elsewhere and ended with Sarah’s comment, we’d be raking her over the coals for it. As it is, it kind of gets lost in Dorothy taking it even farther.
Agree, while I acknowledge Sarah meant to be supportive as opposed to Dorothy its still not a good excuse to bring the topic up in public when she knows Joyce doesn’t want to advertise the fact. she could have just said ‘pain free freedom’ but i think sarah also has trouble not thinking of joyce as the ex fundi on bc.
I get Roz’s point. I get that she’s making a great counterpoint to the point she thinks Dorothy is making. And I can respect her willingness to ignore social convention for the sake of encouraging someone to feel safe in having sex.
But she literally just jumped into a conversation with both feet without actually having the proper context for said conversation after overhearing part of it. And that’s what really gets me. The “let’s not do anything we regret” can have more than 1 possible meaning here. It can mean “let’s not rush into having sex because virginity is precious and can only be given once so make sure you do it only with someone you love,” yes. But it can also mean “okay but let’s reconsider sleeping with Joe right away because I don’t trust that he’s changed and this is still the guy who made a list of how bangable all the girls he knew were” or possibly “let’s not jump into having condomless sex because the pill doesn’t protect you from STD’s remember” or even “look this is still a huge mental shift for you and let’s consider making sure this is something you want to do and not something you feel a godless heathen should do just to stick it to the parents you’re mad at.”
Roz is also jumping in with both feet solely to insult someone, and that’s not okay either.
Yeah Roz sucks. Even if by some merit she was absolutely spot on I’d still say she sucks because of how she entered the convo. She didn’t ask questions or clarify she just started hurling insults.
The funny thing is she’s not “slut-shaming” Joyce; if anything she’s infantilizing her, acting like her mom, exacerbated by not wanting her to fuck Joe in particular. She’d probably be like, hm, ooookay if it was someone else she was considering. Then again, Roz always seems like a parody of the particularly rigid and doctrinaire “SJWs”, so I’m gonna assume the text isn’t entirely on her side.
It is slut shaming, in a way, because Dorothy is infantilizing Joyce in an attempt to keep her from being in a sexual relationship with someone. Even though it’s doctored up with pretty words, the vibe of what Dorothy says here is basically “well, just because you have birth control, you shouldn’t go sleeping around with just anyone”. Which, you know, in a vacuum, that’s great advice.
But in a culture where women are expected to be both desirable but untouchable, where even sleeping with just one person somehow ‘ruins’ a woman and her reputation, and keeping in mind that Fundies (aka, the people Joyce was raised with) dislike birth control because “protected sex outside of marriage is bad!!!” then Dorothy is unfortunately playing into slut shaming arguments.
I’d say it’s more that she’s (maybe not intentionally?) using Joyce’s well developed sense of slut shame to push her away from letting Joe use her.
I’m not sure how much Dorothy’s thinking of the slut shaming angle and how much she’s just thinking about Joe and taking an opportunity that Sarah raised, while trying not to mention Joe, since Becky and Sarah don’t know about that.
I find this kinda thing kinda interesting because it definitely shows how differently people view sex and what is/isn’t appropriate behavior when it comes to having it. Like, Joyce is the one who gets to have a say in if she wants to fuck Joe (well Joe is also involved in that decision obviously) but also if Joe is a creep or might do something to ruin her first time or worse, it’s at least responsible as a friend to warn her, right?
But like the nuance comes where that line is, how much should/can you object to this thing that has nothing to do with you. DOES it have nothing to do with her? Because if Joyce has a bad experience Dorothy is definitely going to be her support system. What is a sexual experience and how does one qualify it?
It’s all somewhat subjective, especially with different experiences, upbringings and opinions on sex. Is sex not a big deal or is it, in fact THE BIGGEST DEAL? Can a hookup, in fact, be casual?
It can but it definitely isn’t always, and it’s reasonable to expect that Joyce will not be of that mind her first time.
I think Dorothy is also (not incorrectly) expecting that if Joyce and Joe get together, she will once again have to interact with Joe on a regular basis. I think Dorothy is motivated here by both concern for Joyce and her own desires.
I think Dorothy’s concerns are reasonable, but she’s expressing herself…poorly.
It can be and it can not be. It’s when the two parties have very different expectations that things get ugly.
Dorothy thinks, correctly, that Joyce isn’t interested in a casual hookup, but in romance. She also thinks, incorrectly, but with good reasons, that Joe isn’t interested in anything but a hookup and is misleading Joyce into thinking it’ll be more. That’s a recipe for disaster that it’s definitely reasonable to try to warn your friend about – but hard to do even in the best case if that friend is crushing hard.
And Dorothy is definitely not doing it well. I don’t think that her motives are bad or that she’s just trying to control Joyce or whatever, but she’s not good at this.
I can’t speak from others’ experience, but I’ve observed that whether it is no big deal or the biggest deal depends on who is experiencing it. Some are one way, some the other, some in between, and for some it’s different in different relationships. Some people can do casual, some can’t, and some only think they can. When partners have different reactions, that can be really stressful.
Even if you can handle casual, if that’s not what you think you’re getting because the other person is pretending romance in order to seduce you, it’s not going to go well.
Which isn’t what Joe’s doing of course, but it’s not unreasonable for Dorothy to think so.
Joyce’s pause and lack of response here makes me think this is the moment where she’s truly realizing the correlation between taking her BC and the possibility of getting physical with Joe. Suddenly that option becomes very real.
Can’t believe I’m saying this, but I haft to agree with Roz.
Dorothy of all people should know that Joyce wouldn’t be taking those pills for anything other than the minstrel cycle pains. Hell she spent the last few days worried about anyone knowing she’s going on the pill because she thought that someone was going to shame her for it. The day before Dorothy was trying to convince Joyce not to be afraid of that happening, yet here we are with her undoing that work herself like what the fuck?
Is this because of Joe? If she’s that hanged up over them than maybe she needs to Reevaluate some things because she’s not acting like herself…besides the over bearing mother hen routine.
She’s really just trying to say, “Dont Fuck JOe” only but coding it in Euphemisms not to tell everyone instantly ( for some reason ) this is a concern makes it look worse.
Or I dunno.
Maybe Dorothy hs developed stronger feelings for Joyce
The Dorothy & Joyce lesbian love running jokes aside. There wasn’t this desperate reaction between them when Joyce was with Eathan and even if didn’t approve of Jacob she atleast wasn’t, well ito quote Joyce ” Up her ass” about it.
Even as a dudebro, I don’t think that really warrants this type of reaction. Dorothy said her piece to both parties which is fine, but now Dotty is trying to manipulate Joyce to stop this relationship, whereas if Joe was really the person she thinks he is he’ll end the relationship himself after they have sex and then Dorothy can throw out her “told you so”, Dorothy will be rid of Joe finally and Joyce will be a little wiser from now on.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to try to keep your friend from making the kind of mistake that leads to them getting seduced then dumped and you getting to say “I told you so”.
Dorothy isn’t going about it well, but if she was right about Joe, this would be pretty traumatic for Joyce.
Would it really? I think that’s a pretty big assumption. Maybe what Joyce needs is a casual hook-up or fwb. Or maybe not. The point is that that’s not Dorothy’s call to make, really, and ASSUMING that there’s NO WAY Joyce could possibly handle having casual sex with a boy and that also because of that, she should intervene and judge Joyce’s every potential sexual partner is. Woof!
Dorothy can give her opinion on Joe, and already has, and probably should more directly and then just leave it at that. That’s what good friends do–tell you what they think, but leave you to make your own decisions (unless it’s to do with something genuinely dangerous, and even then you have to pick your battles carefully or risk alienating them entirely.)
Joyce might be able to handle casual sex now – though it goes against basically every bit of characterization we’ve seen from her. It was only days ago she was freaking out about getting “hussy pills”.
But that’s not the point: Being seduced and then dumped isn’t the same as agreeing to casual sex. Joyce isn’t looking for casual sex. If Joyce does get together with Joe, she’s looking for an actual romantic relationship. And Dorothy knows Joe’s not up for anything but casual. She’s wrong about that, but thinks she has good reason to not trust him if he says otherwise.
Also, yeah, dorothy does risk alienating Joyce here. She’s very definitely not doing this well.
They really need to talk about this more openly, which they haven’t yet had the opportunity to do, at least on screen. They were either with Joe or now with Sarah and Becky. So Dorothy hasn’t really had the chance to talk about her concerns, nor has Joyce had the chance to talk about how she knows that Joe really has changed.
I don’t fully disagree, but I don’t fully know where you’re getting the idea that Joyce is looking explicitly for a romantic relationship and exclusively for a romantic relationship. The read I get from her right now is that she doesn’t know WHAT she wants, really.
She’s being bombarded with lots and lots of new feelings and her entire framework for understanding reality has been ripped to shreds, which included that the POINT of romance was only for marriage and christian children. She might well want to distance herself from that and try new, heathen things! Like casual sex!
Whether that will be good for her in the long run is debatable, but I don’t think that “joyce wants a romantic relationship exclusively and could only ever want that” is a given here.
Quite frankly, wouldn’t it be just PEAK DRAMA for Joe to be the one who wants a romantic relationship, but Joyce</i< just wants to try sex with someone she trusts, and nothing more?
I'd scream DYW from the rooftops but I'd love every second of it tbh.
I’m not even sure she wants any relationship with Joe. I don’t think she’s fully adjusted to the idea that he’s interested in her yet.
But again, it was only a day or so ago she was freaking out about getting the “hussy pills”. She’s certainly not thinking consciously about having casual sex yet. Maybe someday she’ll get there, but there’s been no sign of it yet. Even just having sex in a relationship is still going to be a big deal for her.
I’m kind of expecting that if this argument goes any further, Joyce is just going to disappear on them. Like, Dorothy turns back from Roz and Joyce has long since left (other cast may or may not have noticed).
Roz is accusing Dorothy of “always” slut-shaming. But Dorothy dated Walky for several weeks/months (which was probably well known on the floor).
In an ideal world, people could have sex with whomever they want with no repercussions. (No regrets about “what did I do”, no condemnation from other people….) But we don’t live in an ideal world, and its possible for problems to arise from sex…. people have bad experiences they regret, they get unfair condemnation, etc.. Dorothy even talked about that with Joyce once, talking about how “god forgives but voters do not” (or something along those lines). The problem is that Roz seems to live in the fake/ideal world without considering the fact that not everyone has joined her there yet. Dorothy seems to be smart enough to at least understand the problem.
Generally speaking, slut shaming isn’t aimed at people in a relationship aside from those who shame because it’s premarital hankypanky.
It’s because they consider someone to have had sex easily, often, and/or with a “significant” number of people that the varying degrees of shamers spew their idiocy.
Also Roz definitely knows people don’t share her viewpoint; that’s why she’s so vocal about it.
i think i remember joyce being more ‘slut shamey’ against roz than anyone else tho leslie did tell roz to go easy on her and ‘let her grow’ and such
It’d be nice if ppl could do what they want sexually and the only bad ‘repercussion’ is any drama from say, cheating, but that’s more of a choice than like an accidental pregnancy even after precaution
I just realized a good reason for Becky’s sideglance here, is that she in fact had premarital hanky panky recently. And she’s been grappling with some of the aftermath of that. Namely the swing between “that was amazing! I had sex with my girlfriend and I had fun!” to “God must be mad at me now, am I bad for this?” which is primarily the reason behind her hiding the hanky panky from Joyce. I’d love it if this leads to Becky and Joyce having a talk together. They’ve kinda repaired their friendship, but it also feels like there’s a lot of things left unsaid.
I do wonder what Becky makes of Dorothy’s judgmental tone here in the context of her own hangups. Does she see it and Joyce on the pill as separate issues or does she take it to mean Dorothy is secretly judging her too?
This comic has been going for over 10 years so I’m sure I’ve forgotten something, but when else has Dorothy been slut-shamey? Or is Roz just pulling stuff out of her ass because Dorothy isn’t encouraging Joyce to bang the whole football team before lunch and then the basketball team for an afternoon refresher?
idk if she directly slutshamed roz in her article but the way she talked to her did kinda frame it as a way of her “using her body/sex tape just to get at her sister” which i suppose is still judgmental for seeing her ‘weaponizing sexuality’ as opposed to her being free (the only thing roz did ‘underhanded’ at that time was not letting joe know he was being recorded as far as i know tho i’m sure he would’ve agreed to a sex tape but irl i’m pretty sure filming someone without consent is a crime even if it doesn’t become a viral online vid)
Joe did, in fact, know that he was being recorded and that it would be uploaded to the internet. (Either of those would have been MAJORLY bad if he hadn’t been informed.) What he hadn’t been made aware of was who Roz’s sister was and that it would attract political attention.
I think the line I mentioned is to Dorothy, when interviewing him for the paper. I can’t find it though, but I did find this one where he confirms to Danny that he was into it being filmed.
I believe it’s a state by state basis on whether you need consent to record someone.
That said, the various factors like if it’s audio vs video, if the person is identifiable in the recording, whether nudity is shown, if the sex acts themselves are illegal etc. almost certainly matter.
How is “you put up a sex vide” is slut shaming, given Roz made a video of her having sex with Joe to use it as a weapon against her sister?
It is judging Roz for an underhand political act that ignores a lot of unspoken rules (and maybe the law).
As far as I remember, Joe agreed to having the video taken but not to it being all over the internet. He probably just though Roz wanted something to remember him by.
Because the question was “Did you judge me?” and the answer was essentially “of course I did.” She didn’t just say “You put up a sex video” in a vacuum
I’m not even saying Roz is right, but from Roz’s side there are a lot of observations that would make it seem like Dorothy is slut shaming, including this page’s conversation, as Roz has no context to know that Dorothy is talking about something specific and not just telling Joyce not to have sex (Roz also knows that Joyce is on birth control, but not that it was unrelated to sex, which probably doubles down on the illusion that Dorothy’s trying to stop Joyce from fucking)
There’s the context, thanks. Bad enough for Roz’s hair-trigger anti-sex-rhetoric radar to go wild, but probably mainly Dorothy judging Roz’s choice in light of Roz’s electability.
i don’t consider myself hugely sexual but college/dumb peak youthfulness would probably make me ‘double down’ and sleep with someone even faster
(still being as safe as possible. maybe like being pegged with a strapon [sry if that’s too inappropriate to say/idk if you can black out text on here lol])
Aside from you possibly tattling on yourself here, I’m kinda just repeating what’s been screamed at me. Everything I’ve seen online so far has been the equivalent of the Muses frantically shaking their hands in the camera and shrieking*. Apparently, there’s still a risk of catching people’s ever-present and universal diseases, even if you boil your toys in washing-up liquid and antibacterial cider after every use.
oh ok? i haven’t encountered those muses but i guess i haven’t been chatting about dildo hygiene online much. i don’t really get how boiling sex toys would not be good enough while it’s fine for, say, cafeteria knives and forks, not to mention surgical implements. maybe it’s a “better safe than sorry” type of advice?
I assume there’s proper care out there but feels like it’d be expensive (or some kinda humble brag) if a lesbian bought a new strap on each time she hooked up with a girl, tho that’d be an interesting collection lol)
If you repeat and rephrase enough, eventually you’ll wear your target down and get compliance, of course. That’s how you stretch one point out to a whole argument.
/s
I’m just waiting until Joyce gets fed up and dismisses her with a sarcastic “yes mother” or “okay, Carol”.
i think she was more direct about it earlier asking point blank if she liked joe and “you’re just horny”
Tho given how ‘repressed’ everyone says joyce is, i’d think five mins of like french kissing would prolly tide her over for now if not like “second base”/some groping or so lol/you can still do things that aren’t full blown ‘sex’ or whatever
Roz is generally wrong about this, like when has Dorothy really sex-shamed? Is Roz still mad Dorothy thought what Roz did with Joe was actually really fucked up? Because it was. Joe being cool with it once it happened didn’t mean Joe wasn’t exploited for Roz’s intended benefit,.
On the other hand, in this case, Roz is right that Dorothy is overstepping and should respect Joyce’s autonomy.
Yeah, I don’t generally side with Roz, but she has a point here.
On the other hand, someone should probably warn Joyce that birth control isn’t immediately effective, and she needs to wait at least a week to have actual “reproductive freedom”. Also, that she really shouldn’t have sex if she’s going to spend the next several hours panicking in Dorothy’s room about it.
Think it’s a bit early to assume Joyce doesn’t already know this information and assuming she’s going to go right for it and have a break down is Dorothy’s way of trying to stop her from being with Joe.
Joyce has been intensely homeschooled for years and carries around so much shame about all things sex related that I imagine the whole “These take a week to actually make any changes to your body, don’t have sex before then” part of the instructions was mostly drowned out by the internal screaming in her head, and the overwhelming sound of blood rushing past her ears.
I’m doubtful she’ll immediately jump into bed with someone anyways, but it might be worth re-iterating the safety parts while they’re talking about reproductive freedom. I’d take my chance at being a little be over-cautious and ruining the joke, rather than have my friend drop out of college because she got pregnant due to not understanding her medication.
You know, people who start dating earlier than college usually start with cuddling and smooches not full blown sex and get a feeling for what they like and don’t like.
Dorothy thinking Joyce shouldn’t jump in the deep end is a healthy impulse, she’s just so bad at emotions it will backfire.
Something tells me Joe’s going to hit the brakes if Joyce somehow overrides her shame and they get to that point*. His encounter with Liz set that up. (She even had the triangle smile and everything!)
kinda odd to assume that the girl that can’t eat a taco bell salad without overseeing its construction would jump straight into sword swallowing and pogo-sticking.
the girl is too nervous to take birth control pills, and you think she’s gonna go handholding with whats his name?
Yeah, incredibly horny and sexually repressed isn’t a good combination.
She is likely to move too fast in the right circumstances and to regret it afterwards. It’s likely to be awkward anyway and it would be really bad if Dorothy was right about Joe.
im with roz. dorothy is trying to control what joyce is doing and put judgement on it. i think shes had enough of that already in life. taking this medication was hard for joyce and its not ok to then be like now dont use it for THAT like most people do.
Worse Dorothy knows how much Joyce hates people assuming she’s just taking the pills for sex but is going out of her way to imply infront of her friends that was her motivation to control her behavior. It’s putting Joyce in a no win situation of gelling scrutinized no matter what she does.
I saw this comment yesterday and wanted to agree and add some stuff, but I misplaced it until now, and forgot what I was going to say, so: “yeah, this”
Also, to anybody who’s forgotten, Ross obtained Joe’s consent. Joe didn’t necessarily expect the video to go viral, but that’s kind of the ideal result when you decide with a partner to post a sex video publicly to the internet (like, presumably you want people to see it, that’s kind of the point, and this is supported by the fact that Joe seemed quite pleased with the outcome), so the idea that she did wrong by him is honestly a little weak.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that Sarah making the first comment, and the response about “congrats on your new… reproductive freedom.” But as I recall, these pills were prescribed for something other than unbridled sexual activity – and Sarah, as Joyce’s roommate, should have been well aware of this. So why the crack about “reproductive freedom”?
Sarah’s joke was a sign of support and held no passive aggressive nagging, unlike another friend everyone here is questioning she’s not the one making a comment that implies Joyce might abuse said new “reproductive freedom” as if she’s expecting the first thing she’s going to do with them is fuck a certain somebody.
Honestly, this post of all of them kind of made me remember, “Right, all the characters are flawed and broken in some way, we shouldn’t really be rooting for or jeering any of them. The whole POINT of this comic is that they are all people with trauma growing up in a world that keeps challenging their preconceived notions”
IE They are more toony/zany examples of what real young adults go through, with a touch of Oh Dear God The Trauma for many of them thanks to an insane fundie dad and… Whatever the hell you call the corpse that was Blaine
Suet’s a commenter-poet.
they commonly post weird couplets.
on phones we can’t hover,
and their wit is a stumper
but they seem to have fun, so… fuck it!
It’s kind of funny since what Dotty says boils down to “Don’t hook up with and have sex with Joe”. Meanwhile one of the first things we have seen Roz do is have sex with Joe XD
Dorothy not understanding how to be more indirect when appropriate made her a bad candidate for the R.A. position. Now Dorothy not understanding when to be more direct is handicapping her ability to healthily communicate to Joyce her concerns about Joe. These are probably going to be good lessons for her moving forward, but they’ll be painful in the now.
Ooh, this is a nice thematic bow between then and now, well spotted! I always appreciate a comment with the distance to understand these well-drawn characters as fictional characters with arcs and themes, and not just commenting with whatever reaction you would have if you ran into these people in real life
Speaking of bodies, Roz, yours is super busy. Busybody who loves jumping into the middle of conversations to tell people they’re doing caring about other people wrong.
I mean, she’s not as off the mark about what Dorothy and Joyce are talking about as Dorothy is about the Joe situation. But I guess the difference is Dorothy is trying to help her friend who she thinks is about to make a virgin mistake that will give her wildly wrong ideas about sex, while Roz is just trying to shut someone she knows from class up.
why would Roz just want to shut up Dorothy up? despite the fact they competed for RA job (however unbelievable either of them would get the job) they don’t seem to have particular beef with each other
you’re right that Roz inserts herself into conversations without invitation, but she’s consistently done so when the subject is about sex education, slut shaming or the protection of queer rights.
it doesn’t make her right, but she does have a motivation beyond being the centre of attention or pettily shutting Dorothy up for no reason
To my understanding, Roz sees Dorothy as basically a younger clone of Hillary Clinton. Dorothy is in favor of working for reform through the system and isn’t as far left as Roz. To a lot of leftists, that’s worse than being a MAGA chud because that kind of person a) has a lot more political power than someone like Roz and b) claims to be on the same side but spends most of their time holding back real progress, so clearly they must hate leftists more than they hate fascists, and are therefore fascists themselves*
So couple that with some personal interactions that don’t go well, and Roz is basically going to try and read everything she does as negatively as possible.
*This is an opinion that is sometimes true but other times frustration that folks can be genuinely progressive and still hold different opinions about how things should be done.
I don’t know where else she would want this interaction to go? Unless the goal is to have a nuanced discussion about how healthy or unhealthy it would be for Joyce to have casual sex from yelling distance.
I mean, she might want a nuanced conversation as a goal. I never pretended her methods are good or effective, but I do think her motivations are (misplacedly) good
wow that’s such a backhanded compliment from Dorothy in the first panel: “it sounds unbelievable to me that you were able to take care of yourself without being treated like a child or a puppy, but congrats”
Even if from Sarah she could try a bit harder to sound happy that Joyce is taking the initiative. Sadly everyone seems to be giving joyce the child star treatment and acting every instance of her growing up is some kind of unnatural event.
THANK YOU ROZ, she needs to be taken down from her trauma based high horse. Seriously I acknowledge a lot of this is just her wanting to keep control, but that “Too much freedom” line was too much.
Too much freedom all at once can be a real shock to the system and overwhelm, especially the repressed. This is why the Rumspringah or whatever the Amish call it is so effective at retaining Amish culture and identity. The Amish teens go out, get loose and party, get disillusioned/mildly traumatized, and then run back home and stay there the rest of their life, raising their kids in the same way.
Dorothy is trying to avoid all of Joyce’s progress rebounding and snapping back at itself.
That’s a bit of a stretch I think. If attempted rape, kidnapping, and watching someone die isn’t enough to stop joyce from progressing then what makes you think her dating Joe again Is going to cause her to run back home and resume religion?
Everything you mentioned happened to Joyce. They weren’t her decisions. People misinterpret the Amish tradition and think it’s about sending them into the big scary world and then they see the stuff that you describe, and they get scared back. That is an element, to be sure, but the bit that actually works is not what others do, but what the Amish teens themselves do. It’s less about fear and more about leaning on regret and guilt.
And I don’t think anything is going to make Joyce specifically run back home to her religion, it was a real-world example, not an analogy. But I think Dorothy is aware of these patterns, and she’s understandably convinced that Joe is just going to break her heart, probably within two or three weeks based on how her life has been going since College started. Dorothy can’t protect Joyce forever, and she knows it, especially with that Yale letter, but she can at least stop what appears to her like Joyce just punching herself in the face.
I am very much enjoying that both Roz and Dorothy are right, and neither of them are correct. It’s good writing.
“WE” might regret? Who the heck is “we”, Dorothy, unless you’re offering up a threeway maybe you should butt out a bit harder.
I do love the panel line construction that puts a big, stark barrier between “people who have no boundaries around Joyce, to Joyce’s detriment” and Joyce herself. May it be symbolic of Joyce unwinding herself from “friends” who currently seem to care more about the image they have of her than of the actual person.
I feel like a lot of people are on Dorothy’s case because she’s a stick in the mud. She advises caution, forethought, and planning, and that’s boring nerd stuff. She’s boring.
Which I get, believe me, but as someone who *likes* boring, I personally think Dorothy is a good influence on Joyce and should be allowed to have opinions like this.
No. People are on Dorothy’s case because she’s continually treating Joyce like a child, butting in where she has specifically been asked to butt out, and generally assuming that her opinion is the only possible correct one.
If you’re like that, then good for you, but there will be people like me who have no interest in having that energy around them. Not because it’s “boring” or “cautious” or “requiring forethought” or “boring nerd stuff” but because it’s “intrusive” and “rude” and “overstepping boundaries”.
I personally think Dorothy is allowed to have whatever opinions she has, but not entitled to air them without consequence.
But but but first amendment and freedom of speech and and and lib’ral agender! If she say thing and other person react in any way, other person deleting her freedom!
Dorothy has not yet asked why Joyce is interested in Joe. It makes all the difference in the world that she’s not considering Joyce’s opinion at all, she just keeps saying “Do not date/sleep with Joe.”
Given that willis told us he doesn’t want to retread plotpoints, I hope this doesnt turn into roz going off and trying to boink joe without knowing all the details
I always see sex as a blank canvas, or performance art. With practice, there are all kinds of ways to express yourself and give your partner(s) an experience, whether thrilling, comforting, playful, you name it.
In this analogy, Dorothy’s personality probably has the best outcome for first sex as painting a Rembrandt on the first try, and she’s not about to let the wrong partner get in the way. Of course, all bets are off when it’s her own sex life, because her rational side went out the window for that.
The problem is judging the results of each instance over the pattern of improvement, and for Dorothy’s personality, that applies to more than just sex.
interesting analogy (i disagree with your take on Dorothy, but that’s been trodden in like 90% of threads today so i’m leaving that aside).
i like to think of sex as just one type of social interaction (which is not really an analogy, more of an angle.) interacting with people in a successful, satisfactory, creative and authentic way is something you learn, whether the interaction is small talk, commenting on a comic strip, going on a trip with someone, or sex.
and just like all those types of interactions, some people are pretty much naturals, others will always find it challenging but still want to try, and others don’t care for it at all.
So I take it that the borderless panel 3 depicts the exact moment when it finally occurs to Joyce that sex really is something she could actually do now.
Like, it’s always been completely off the table before because God wouldn’t like it, and she could become pregnant, and she didn’t have anyone in her life who she’d consider doing it with. (Except maybe Jacob, but we all saw how that went.) And all of those obstacles have been cleared away.
Dorothy caught onto the implications immediately, but Joyce’s habits of thought prevented her from even thinking of it as a possibility until Dorothy pointed it out. Which means that, in addition to all the problems pointed out in the threads above, Dorothy’s warning has had exactly the opposite effect than intended.
I think it’s clear to me at this point that Joyce has outgrown her initial friend circle and they’re not happy about it. If someone talked to me the way Dorothy talks to Joyce I’d never speak to them again.
It’s also worth pointing out that multiple times now people outside of Joyce’s immediate friend circle have all intervened on Joyce’s behalf or otherwise interacted with her in ways Dorothy in particular disapproves of.
There’s definatly a theme where all three of them at some point try to limit Joyce’s outside friendships. Sarah I can see coming around once she gets called out. Becky eventually, now that she’s starting to form close attachments other then Joyce. Dorothy…I think will have the hardest time accepting the change in joyce because it would mean to acknowledge her own underlying need for control and unlike Becky she doesn’t yet have anyone she respects enough to give her advice, probably because it woukd mean acknowledging a shortcoming.
I don’t know if she’s outgrown her friends (or at least, not all of them. If Dotty keeps trying to mother her, it may well be that Joyce has outgrown her), but she has definitely outgrown the kind of friendship they had, where she was the naive baby of the group.
Thats really the problem. They are used to the sheltered and obedient child from first semester and now despite ridiculing her for being like that nobody wants to see her grow out of the mold.
It’s going to be so tragic if Dorothy has the conversation I gave up take for you with the response nobody asked you to do that! But that’s where this is heading. (Dorothy don’t give up Yale! Make new friends with healthier dynamics!)
hell, if she goes to yale she can even keep some of the same friends if she really wants, she just won’t be living with them.
I’m still really hoping that’s an invitation for second year (fall term), rather than the current spring term, but I’m seeing this argument coming too. Especially because Dorothy seems to have ramped up doing stuff for Joyce this term.
Dorothy, having expressed her reproductive freedom all over Walky, really shouldn’t be reinforcing the negative stigmas Joyce already has. A bit hypocritical, although it does befit her future political career.
Dorothy: I’m not in any way infantalizing, Joyce. I just think she can’t be trusted to make an objective decision about having sex with Joe because I think she’s unable to be trusted with her hormones and that sex with someone I don’t like is traumatizing.
Jesus Christ you all have the most absurd takes on Dorothy’s behavior. Riz is like objectively wrong about this situation as an outsider and while Dorothy’s tack is a bit off here she’s not shaming Joyce for her budding sexuality, there is almost certainly some sort of back story to Dorothy’s feelings about Joe that’s making her so defensive of Joyce. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills in these comments sometimes
Yeah, Roz has the right to say this. I like Dorothy, she’s one of my favorite characters, but what she just said was really creepy, and Dorothy has always treated Roz like some kind of insufferable twit instead of engaging respectfully. Like… Sorry, Dorothy, I normally side with you but you brought this on yourself.
Dorothy perceiving Joe as a sexual predator is a valid perspective, I think. (He sounded like an Andrew Tate fan for the majority of the time that Dorothy has known him.) I feel like she should address that with Joyce directly.
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VIRGINITY IS A CONSTRUCT
True! But even if you know this, a bad first experience can still fuck you up.
The only thing I’d take back from mine was the battery dying in the school parking lot.
…car battery?
Yup. We started making out in my car the school parking lot which led to activities and I left the car on with the radio on while we were in the back seat.
The battery died and we had to call her brother to jump my car…
hahahahahaha
That happened with my first girlfriend, but in an “under construction” subdivision. Had to walk up to the road to find some stranger to jump us off. REALLY embarrassing.
Do you live in a sitcom or something?
A bad first experience in anything can ruin the thing for you. If you choke on the first time you eat a grape, you may not want to have grapes again. It is also common if people get horribly sick due to appendicitis to not want to eat the food they had right before that, as your body tends to link the two together even though they aren’t actually linked.
The first time a woman shut me down she said, “The first time is shit, and I don’t want to be responsible for the worst experience of your life.” Now granted, I wasn’t exactly well adjusted in this area, but that sentence haunted me for years.
That’s messed up.
And for any first-timers reading this, my first times definitely weren’t shitty or anywhere close to a worst experience, what the heck. (Mine was special, and neato, and empowering because it was all about going at exactly my pace.) Please do not believe that your first time has to be a bad time.
Also, it can be very medium.
But so can a bad 27th experience…
The first time having to be the most special experience is so overrated.
I don’t even remember my first time. It was insignificant tbh. Not bad, but not good, obviously.
Stuff has only gotten better since then, because i know better what i want and who with.
But hey, the earlier you catch on to going into sexual encounters with enthusiasm, and sure about who you’re with, the better. I do hope teens can make better experiences because of better sex ed and empowerment!
I’d like to deconstruct mine!
well considering she just started, i’d assume it might not be good to have sex before it kicks in even if joe does use condoms lol
Since I thought that it was her time of the month, not sure that it would be a problem, but I could be wrong on both counts.
People who have sex during the time of the month is a thing.
yeah but you’re much less likely to get pregnant (NOT FAILSAFE DO NOT USE THIS AS YOUR ONLY CONTRACEPTIVE) from period sex
Things you learn in dressing rooms:
I know somebody who was tracking her fertility, because she wanted to get pregnant, and she found she was most fertile during her period. She mentioned this to her mother, who was like, “yeah, that’s why you and your brother are 10 years apart”.
Also I know somebody with long periods, and she and her partner decided that periods really aren’t such a big deal that they’d like to wait two weeks to have sex when they want to; they can just use a towel, it’s fine.
What do men’s dressing rooms sound like, do they talk about sports or what
The braggarts talk about conquests. This is the sort of dudebro that grows up to become an Andrew Tate admirer.
Wait … people talk in dressing rooms where you are? My experience with them usually has vocalizations limited to “Hmm… nah.” or “Oooh… nice.” And the like. Maybe with an occasional “What do you think?” followed by the others.
Honestly, I can’t think of a conversation that I’ve had in a changing room that I wouldn’t have had outside of it
there’s even a song about it. by the barenaked ladies. 🤦
Exactly what I was thinking.
I don’t think she’s worried about Joyce’s virginity. She’s worried about with whom Joyce will be intimate with at all. Namely Joe.
Starting to get the feeling Dotty and Joe banged at this point.
Ya this is clearly Dorothy being worried about Joe while Roz thinks this is about Dorothy being anti-sex or something
Experiencing something new amd powerful for the first time isn’t.
Meh, my sexual debut was a nothingburger. People built it up like it was going to be this life altering thing that could devastate my life if I wasted it on someone, but I just decided I was done being “a virgin” and had sex with the guy I was dating.
It wasn’t great, it wasn’t awful, I don’t regret just throwing it at someone to be rid of it. Didn’t seem new and powerful, didn’t change who I was, just gave me fun new ways to show affection.
I had the “sex isn’t really a big deal” lesson taught to me, but I also didn’t actually understand how that could be possible until I started having it. It seemed too important. Congrats on learning that lesson before you had experience; I think most people have a hard time with that.
exactly my point! THE FIRST TIME is overrated and making experiences is great, as long as everyone involved is enthusiastic about making them! (and has some basic knowledge on how to avoid STIs including babies 😛 )
ROZ FROM THE TOP ROPE
Who’s going to show up tomorrow with a steel chair?
Rozzers B^O
Hope that turn of phrase doesn’t do any psychic damage to Joyce (considering she was still concerned about the pharmacist thinking she’s a “hussy”).
Yup. Seems *everyone* chiming in is doing so clumsily, despite their seeming good intensions.
It’s definitely a bad topic to have in public and in Dorothy’s case also passive aggressive since she knows Joyce won’t likely refute her on this when other friends are watching.
Honestly this might be the only time I’ve actually liked Roz. lol
But Dorothy isn’t slut shaming Joyce, she has concerns about Joe specifically
New random Gravatar is MOST unfortunate in this context
Yeah, but the way it sounds, and also I think she’s said some things to Roz about Roz making a sex tape, so from Roz’ perspective, pretty legit observation.
Dorothy had some very interesting first choice in questions for the interview she got. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/brought/
But yeah, this comic always brings weird concepts to me, like agreeing with anything Roz says. Yet here we are, she’s not that far from the mark, I think.
I mean, it’s a tough question, but it’s not really a sex shaming question, is it? It’s focused on the politics and her motivations.
also in a weird and uncomfortable move, she lectured Roz for having an onlyfans, because it would make her “unelectable”
I think that needs to be considered in light of Dorothy’s concerns about even her own more conventional sexual activity being used against her politically, which we’ve seen come up a few times.
Most slut-shaming comes from personal concerns, that doesn’t make it okay to pin on someone else.
She’s doing what she can with the context she’s got to work with, even if she jumped to a couple conclusions to get there.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/private/
I feel like it’s worth noting that even Roz said “if” Joyce chooses to be sexually active.
Joyce cannot have this conversation without being slutshamed because her internalised slut-shamer is on a hair trigger. You only have to remind Joyce that sex is a thing she Could Do for her to be slutshamed. Introjection is a helluva thing.
They can’t slut shame you if you do it to yourself first! #Clever
Inside Joyce are two wolves. They both slutshame her.
Dorothy may not be slut-shaming, but she trying to control Joyce’s behavior. Joyce’s mistakes are hers to make.
I’m torn on this. There’s a difference between controlling behavior and giving advice. I think Dorothy is on the edge of skirting that line but she hasn’t crossed it. This is just her being annoying about it. Controlling would be Dorothy trying to take that choice away.
Agreed. Dorothy hasn’t seen Joe’s character development like we had. Joe from the earliest strips going after “newly atheist, on birth control now” Joyce would be really unhealthy for Joyce. Especially since Joyce still has trauma from an attempted rape mixed in with her upbringing.
I think people are so critical of Dorothy because we’ve seen Joe grow and also seen him agonizing over this crush and the risk to Joyce’s wellbeing. If Joyce were considering early strips Joe, which is what Dorothy believes, I think we’d be more on Dorothy’s side.
I do think that Joe has grown enough and had enough experiences he could be a very healthy first sexual partner for Joyce. But he’s got some bad history that is fair to be skeptical of.
It’s also because she’s not doing it well or smoothly and we’ve been seeing that from her a lot lately.
Her intentions are good I think, but her implementation is backfiring.
Dorothy hasn’t even asked Joyce, “Why do you like Joe?” She went immediately into telling Joyce what to do without even finding out the context of the situation.
Even if Joe was still a scumbag and joyce still has trauma to work through its not an excuse for Dorothy to take agency away from Joyce. I personally think this behavior of Dorothy’s is already controlling to an unhealthy degree. Her bringing up a topic tinged with shame is a form of emotional control because she’s deliberatly reminding joyce about the shame she personally associates with the pill in order to get Joyce to alter her behavior since joyce made it clear she wasn’t going to let Dorothy’s disapproval of Joe sway her. Joyce has made it clear Dorothy’s level of management is unwanted in her personal life and Dorothy isn’t backing off this is definitely an attempt to control her friends choices.
Yeah, I think Joyce’s line in the sand for friendly favors and advice was actually really good earlier in the storyline (Dorothy signing her up for life drawing and acquiring supplies on her behalf, because they both acknowledged that taking that step personally was stressful for Joyce but that the overall experience of the class would be a positive, although that was still an overreach since Joyce only asked her for the smaller favor of a list of classes).
Dorothy maybe didn’t see it as the line it was, despite the fact it came right on the tail of Joyce expressing her extreme discomfort in the pharmacy and LITERALLY telling her that she wanted space, but instead an invitation to keep being self-declared mom-friend after a short (under 24 hour) break.
Whether she’s doing it consciously or not (and I agree that slut-shaming isn’t the exact type of shaming going on), I feel like if she’s saying that so loudly that someone that far away can clearly hear her Dorothy is totally playing on Joyce’s shame. Even if random classmates weren’t able to hear them, she knows Joyce, she knows Joyce’s hang-ups, saying it for Sarah and Becky to hear is an attempt to shame Joyce out of doing anything with Joe all in its own.
I agree, Sarah bringing it up was a bit weirdly worded for a public conversation too but she atleast sounds sincere. Dorothy is straight up implying that Joyce is only on the pill for casual sex, something she of all people knows joyce doesn’t want people to just assume about her. She’s taking a personal topic Joyce trusted her with and using it against her.
No, Dorothy is warning Joyce not to get involved with Joe, even though she’s on birth control. If Dorothy is slut shaming anyone it’s Joe. She has a real problem with Joe because she thinks he doesn’t care about consequences. Of course, Joe cares about consequences as much as (or maybe even more than) Dorothy. That’s why he avoids them. The irony of the situation is that Joe’s the one who is most at risk of getting hurt in this situation.
Right, but with the old version of Joe that “not caring about consequences” would be seducing Joyce then walking away, pretending that was enough.
And that’s the version Dorothy knew for years.
Dorothy has already told Joyce what she thinks of Joe. Using the topic of the pill to have yet another conversation telling Joyce she’s not supposed to get with Joe while making it sound to anyone in earshot that she thinks Joyce only took the pill for having sex is really a really awful thing for Dorothy to do to joyce nomatter how well intentioned she’s being.
The time gap between the last panel with these and this one is a matter of minutes. Dorothy and joyce were walking from lunch to pick up Sarah and Becky after their class. It’s not ‘yet another’, this iron is still hot.
We know it’s about Joe specifically, but it’s phrased in a generic slut-shamey way. “Let’s not get out of hand or anything, and not immediately jump into something we might regret”.
She could have said something like “don’t let Joe talk his way into your pants just because you’re on the pill, because Joe’s a jerk and you can’t trust him”.
But no! She said things about how Joyce could get “out of hand”, and do something that we might regret. Not Joyce might regret, but we might regret. She asserts she has a right to control Joyce’s sex life and that Joyce can only take lovers that she approves of, otherwise Dotty might regret Joyce’s choices. The heck?
Consider that Dorothy may be unsure just who knows about Joyce + Joe. She may be allusive to protect Joyce’s privacy. They all know about the medication.
I read that “we” as the “medical we”. As in: “well, Mr. Patient, how are we feeling today?” (I just realized that I have no idea why people use “we” that way, but they do.) So, maybe expressing “duty of care” rather than control/controlled. Still an inappropriate assumption but in a different way.
Roz is annoying and mean but she usually has a point
Unfortunately, her point is often unrelated or aimed at the wrong person.
But not today.
That has yet to be seen, but so far you appear to be right.
Feels weird to say, but I too am with Roz on this one. This is absolutely not Dorothy’s place to comment on unprovoked, and is super shitty of her to do so when she knows that that is not what Joyce is taking them for and is something she was pretty specifically worried would be misinterpretted that way.
This honestly comes off as Dorothy trying to provoke Becky to chime in and take her side in the conversation like she tried to do before with the ‘best friend’ declaration.
ya, Joyce can’t/won’t respond without either admitting she’s super horny, or revealing she and Joe are potentially a thing. To Becky and Sarah. Then some mysterious ways and Becky is on Dorothy’s side. I don’t think it would have worked out, even if Roz hadn’t interrupted.
Honestly I don’t get the Roz hate because she’s usually always right.
Her bad side is that she’s abrasive in a cast of abrasive people.
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person etc.
“Seems Unbelievable, but good for you” isn’t the fun kinda rib for me. That’s honestly pissing me off a little, Sarah.
It doesn’t strike me as a rib. I think Sarah intends a compliment.
That pisses me off TWICE as much!
I think you’re hearing Sarah’s voice in a different tone than BarerMender & I do. Remember, Sarah is basically Joyce “big sister” and knows her very well. It’s not far-fetched to find it unbelievable that Joyce took a pill on her own after the way she demonstrated over it earlier. “You *actually* did it by yourself? Wow. Congrats.”
wouldn’t be surprised if the piling on by dorothy and sarah caused joyce to blow up at roz, though at least she (hopefully) wouldn’t be the type to take this information and use it to her advantage somehow or spread it around
What?
What information are you concerned about Joyce blowing up at Roz and spreading around? I ask, cause I got nothing.
Dorothy’s secretly been the slut judging one the whole time but fundie Joyce acted as an effective smokescreen. The dark truths have been revealed. Next up…Dina’s secret gambling addiction!
I can’t wait until we get the full scoop on Leslie’s secret rap career, personally.
Round n Round, Let the city turn, We can party in the hills we can party in the burbs.
The likelihood of someone on this board branching out from Leslie to Pearl exceeds 1, actually. It sounds mathematically impossible, but here we are.
And Dannys Norwegean Black Metal addiction – played on Ukulele.
Dina likes to roll the bones.
Her favorite card game is Spades.
She can really dig it.
Dina’s bookie’s name is Leo. She’s always got “Pay Leo” on her mind. (Paleo-)
One day Dina had to climb on top of Leo’s shoulders to watch the game she was betting on. But she was a bit too heavy for him, so she wound up slipping off when she leaned over to one side. She climbed up again, though, before she paid him her stake for the game. She had to: the word was “Pay Leo on tall agee.”
But dina is secretly seething at all this money she’s forking over to her bookie. She’s trying to become a gangster herself, so that she can boss Leo around without having to give him a cut. Her mantra :”Pay Leo until a G”
LOL!
Since she met Becky, her favorite game is….
No, I can’t do it.
Oh! Hearts!
Rock, Paper, Scissor?
Boom.
(…Poker. *Blushes*)
* gasp *
Say it ain’t so! ;D
She has a lot riding on whether future discoveries will indicate that a certain species of dinosaur was capable of flight.
She won big betting against Dakotaraptor
Let’s be honest, if there’s a Gatcha game with scientifically accurate dinosaur drops she might actually be in danger.
I could see Dina getting into Blackjack but with her analytical mind she’d probably do quite well
Dina found out you can play crane games online and came across one that had reasonably accurate dinosaur plushies (allowing for the limits of being constructed out of fabric on any kind of scale).
Dina is in debt bigtime from losing bets on the secret underground dinosaur gladiator fights.
>A wild ROZ appeared!
>DOROTHY used PIVOT!
>It wasn’t very effective…
Sudden Roz!
First off
1) Dorothy not your place, we don’t know how that argument ended, but that’s still something that you shouldn’t be so unintentionally/intentionally condescending about.
2) Roz, also not your place, not part of the friend group and literally just a bystander walking by as it was happening. Also oddly direct and insulting.
3) . . .I’m actually really interested in seeing how this goes. Considering. . .well Roz and Joe **have** slept together, and considering how Joyce and Joe are making eyes at one another, that whole thing might come back to the fore in a really really interesting way so I’m intrigued on where this is going.
Roz: “oh wait this is about Joe? I take back what I said keep shaming her until she stays away from his forever”
That’s how it could go.
i mean, as far as i remember, things didn’t necessarily end up on bad terms with joe, they just never really hooked up/talked again
yeah, I’m pretty sure it was just a couple casual hookups, and I doubt she’s still interested after the publishing of Joe’s list
I think their last interaction was when Leslie gave Roz an impromptu substitute teaching role one day in Gender Studies class. Joe brought up his list again, and Roz replied simply “Joe, don’t rank women.”
I suspect Roz isn’t really a fan of Joe anymore, but she also doesn’t think that he’s actually threatening.
We may find out soon!
I think you are right about Roz’s opinions on Joe (personally I think he doesn’t really matter to her even.)
But Roz didn’t simply reply “Joe, don’t rank women.” to Joe bringing up his list.
She replied “All women are tens” to him bring up his list.
The “Don’t rate women, Joe” was in response to him retorting “Even Tomhi Lahren?”, after a beat panel of her with a terse expression, implying that the latter was Roz speak for “No, she isn’t but I don’t want to admit that (and also I still don’t like you having made your list)”.
I didn’t realize until reading this comment that I want Joyce and Roz to be Eskimo sisters. I hope that term isn’t derogatory to Arctic natives or something. I just mean them both having a shared sexual companion in their experiences. Seems like a dynamic ripe for humor.
Gotta imagine “Eskimo sisters” is straight up *shudders* levels of derogatory. I honestly hadn’t heard the term before, but got what it means from this. “Eskimo” is already generally considered derogatory, and now we’re going to add sexual connections to use it in a phrase? Seems pretty gross, would suggest retiring that one.
Eskimo is a slur against Inuit people, so any usage of the word is offensive. The term e***** sisters was almost certainly used historically to invite more discrimination against indigenous people, so we should not say that either.
Anyways, what sort of hijinks are you envisioning here between Roz and Joyce?
Thanks for the insight. Yeah it doesn’t really feel right to use that term but I can’t think of good slang for this idea. That being said Joyce and Roz seem so different but having the same taste in men is just fun. This is consistent too since Roz has also shown interest in Jacob. It reveals things about both of them. Perhaps Joyce is more perverted and Roz more vanilla than they let on. We at least know that’s true for Joyce.
A term I’ve heard before, but probably just as a one-off line in a show or something, is “sausage sisters,” and apparently the term “pogo sisters” exists too.
i’ve just heard ‘sloppy seconds’, which isn’t really that much better lol
And that usually refers to doing it with the same person one right after another, which wouldn’t be the case here.
I saw the term “sisters of the pole.”
Very recently became one, when someone decided it means “eats raw meat”. Much more likely it means “nets a snowshoe”…
https://uaf.edu/anlc/research-and-resources/resources/resources/inuit_or_eskimo.php in a nutshell.
I’m glad you made the slur bigger so that we could all see it better.
it has always been an exonym even if it wasn’t always considered a slur. also, most slurs weren’t always considered a slur
How could that not be derogatory…?!?
I think both Joyce and Joe are expecting to take things slowly. Joyce probably still has strong ideas about how relationships develop, regardless of how she got them or what her glands may be telling her right now. And this is a relationship that Joe values and wants to keep — I think he’s afraid of falling into his usual pattern and blowing it up.
Not to mention that taking it slowly lets Mr. Willis keep us in suspense for years….
So, Roz can give Joyce advice like “Joe really likes it when you [redacted] his [censored] with your [****].”?
Dorothy is definitely being a busy-body here. I realize she’s projecting her own dislike of Joe onto Joyce, but she should check her own house before telling Joyce to keep hers clean!
If this was an over the top teen drama with joyce having pettiness, i can imagine an alternate timeline when it’s like “I fucked both your exes (danny/walky) and they were mediocre, now i’ll fuck joe’s brains out”
I mean its not bad, albeit generic, advice but its also sounding like its missed a reply or two from Joyce
And whats with the ‘we’?
Thinks Joyce might regret sleeping with Joe; thinks she herself might regret… the violent options she didn’t take to stop it?
Dorothy is really wanting the Queen of Joyce Possession title off Becky
prior to this episode I thought Becky’s “you’re my rival” thing was really just a bit. Now that it really seems like Dorothy is very controlling of Joyce I’m starting to think it’s not. Also I’m realizing that I don’t feel like i could ever trust or be friends with someone who was planning on trying to become a big politician. They have to have their friend group be optically perfect, they have to make no mistakes, which means realistically you have to be somewhat controlling of your friends or just never really get close to anyone. And I say this as someone who *was* friends with someone like that. He started pulling back from the friendship when he started actually making progress to his goal.
Well it’s not the long-sought-after Joyce/Dorothy ship because why would that need birth control… obviously Dorothy is fighting the temptation for a FMF threesome with Joyce and someone else?
Jason?
He’s about to be TAing a class they’re in, so no. Jason would never sleep with a student.
The ‘We’ might just be because that is often how mothers talk to their kids, and Dorothy takes her roll as Joyce mom #3 very seriously (her dorm fridge is 85% lunchables).
That just sounds like a dorm fridge. Lunchables and uncrustables.
would be interesting to see if anyone was petty enough to wait and say ‘i told you so’ but that’d be annoying/a friendship ender for me personally, not that i’d really tell anyone about any hookups, close mutual friends or not
Maybe Dorothy already slept with Joe and regretted it.
Yeah that’s been my theory since someone brought it up a few weeks ago and backed it up with an otherwise hard to explain Dorothy reaction to Joe bragging about how people come to him for sexy shenanigans but then also judge him for it.
there it is.
Ironically the slut she’s shaming here is Joe, not Joyce.
DAMN
It’s still wrong to do.
In her head, sure, but to anyone outside of her own head it’s Joyce, and it’s preying on Joyce’s religious trauma so I’m not letting it slide on that one.
Unless her retort tomorrow is “I’m not slut shaming Joyce, I’m slut-shaming Joe” in which case still shitty, but at least the conversation can open up about why it’s shitty instead of her just locking down.
Oh today’s going to be a FUN comment section.
Me right now.
(Although Roz has a point)
(ducks)
Oh she absolutely does, I just don’t think it’s her place to say it *at this time*. If that makes any sense.
Did you just make this, or is this just a safe reaction whenever Roz is in a strip.
Either way ACES.
I literally had the idea as it was striking midnight and had to scramble.
No idea why the “Me” jumps at one point, I was in a hurry.
Oh how the free hand of Atheism quickly became…. the controlling hand of Atheism?
Freedom is relative. People will preach freedom and then say “no, not like that”.
Because, in some cases, it actually is “no, not like that”.
Context is paramount. Maybe a better phrase would be to say, “People should have the freedom to make their own mistakes, so long as they do not harm others.”
And that phrase too has context buried within it.
In Dorothy’s case I feel it is trying to protect Joyce from Joe, whom she strongly feels would be a bad match that would leave Joyce heartbroken (also it is hinted she is maybe jealous of Joe gaining Joyce’s affection and/or time).
In general, well social constructs and norms don’t all come from religion (hence why going topless in some cultures was historically fine but not in others and why tattoos are considered cool in some subcultures but unsightly in others – I don’t think the bible has a lot to say on the topic). Also, AIDS kind of put a big damper on casual sex.
The Bible explicitly forbids tattoos: Leviticus 19:28: “You must not put tattoo marking upon yourselves.”
Leviticus sounds like the kid at school who tells on you for not drinking your milk at lunch.
There were also some food restrictions that I don’t know of any Christains following (though there could be some).
What creative translation is that? KJV: “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.”
I did not know that. Thanks for the correction – I am always happy to learn.
Sort of like how sex scenes or nudity are considered more okay in Europe, while violent scenes are considered more okay in America.
What does atheism have to do with anything?
I can’ recall, is Joyce keeping her new and definitely totally platonic interest in Joe secret from Becky or has she just not told her?
Joyce is keeping her new totally platonic interest in Joe a secret from Joyce.
So naturally Becky knows already.
I feel it’s going to be what sets off the Sex Bomb.
The Sex Bob-omb.
i mean, it’ll be obvious to her (or maybe dina will notice and point it out) once she sees joyce and joe interact for five mins
Oooh, I didn’t even see that Becky was in this strip! This could be even more interesting.
That’s probably part of why Dorothy phrases it generically, rather than framing it around Joe, even though that’s what she’s thinking of. Doesn’t want to reveal Joyce’s interest to anyone Joyce hasn’t let in on it yet.
Which is nice of her, even if it makes the rest of what she’s saying even more awkward.
Another option for that, though, would be not bringing it up during a group conversation.
Not saying she’s handling this well. She jumped at the opportunity Sarah brought up and she shouldn’t have.
Ironically, I feel like everyone else will have a more positive reaction to Joe/Joyce than Dorothy did, and it will make her feel like she’s crazy. Becky might’ve had some decent interactions with him in class, or seen how he interacts with Joyce and might actually not have that bad of an opinion of him. Sarah has actually had a few interesting interactions with him and might know that there’s more to him than just being a horndog.
Dorothy is actually the one who’s been the most out of the loop on New Joe.
Excellent. Perfect time for Roz shenanigans. Is she going to be unnecessarily abrasive? Absolutely. Is she going to be downright terrible? Maybe, maybe not. Bring it on
there’s always one person who inappropriately inserts themselves in situations/always has to comment on something, happens a lot with teens/young adults but a lot of ppl don’t outgrow it either
Also happens a lot with sitcoms. It’s genre-appropriate
Becky is the only one here whose opinion is being expressed properly, at the moment. Which is to say, she’s currently keeping it the fuck to herself. I’m exhausted with this “Everyone has an opinion about Joyce’s body and won’t shut up about it” nonsense. It’s written fine, don’t get me wrong, it’s just that the portrayed behavior really grates on me as someone who spent decades getting scrutinised for anything people could justify.
If Becky vocalized her opinion on Joyce’s body they’d be having a very different conversation.
You make a good point. I want that conversation to happen instead.
https://imgur.com/a/pmiGvYr
Quick mockup.
My suspicious have been confirmed.
Approved and appreciated.
BTW Yotomoe I do enjoy your arts, even if I don’t comment on them much. Thank you.
i’d imagine she’d push him onto joyce, if only to keep distance from dina, not that joe’s an actual ‘threat’ to their relationship
or take the chance to talk to joyce about it, “i had *gay* sex and the world didn’t end, so go on and do your boring tall straight man”
“We” might regret, Dotty? I like you but you need to back off.
Wrong “we”, I think. Pretty sure she’s doing the Conversational We, which is actually “you” but just saying a different word for some reason.
I think she’s talking about her own regrets. I’m pretty sure Dorothy and Joe made the beast with too backs.
Two.
Where’d you get that idea from?
I’m not saying this isn’t possible but considering Danny’s relationship s with both of them I would assume this would have come up before now if it happened. Like for this scenario to work Joe would have to keep him banging a girl a secret which I don’t think he was capable of last semester.
unless they both got drunk or it was a time when danny was happy with sal/amber to not care anymore, i think joe respects his best friend enough to not hookup with his ex, even if he was put on the ‘do’ list way back
The ‘we’ honestly does sound possessive of Dorothy in this context because whether she means it as a friend or the general we it comes off as her telling Joyce she has to consider Dorothy and the rest of her friends opinions no matter what she does. “Don’t get yourself into a situation where we have to spend time picking up the pieces Joyce” is what the underlying message here sounds like.
I don’t know what adjective in particular goes on that ‘we’, but it would piss me the hell off.
As much as I feel for Joe and am happy with Joyce’s growing confidence, nothing has actually shown Dorothy why she’s wrong about Joe. She’s not even slut-shaming, she’s literally worrying about Joyce being another target for a very predatory individual (who has gone character development but like… does anyone besides Amber know this?)
Not that I fault Roz for coming to the wrong conclusion… well okay, I do because she literally is butting herself into the conversation. Okay, I think Roz means well, but unlike Dorothy, Roz literally knows nothing about any of these people and her morality is… less than great?
Roz is the most obnoxious kinda asshole. An asshole who means well.
Oh and the fact that Dorothy rightly pointed out that Joyce sucks at relationships. The toxic relationship with Ethan and literally trying to get another boy to cheat on his girlfriend with her… okay, Joyce also isn’t a great person behind that perky veneer huh.
Nobody’s a great person, and if you think anyone is, you just haven’t found out what they’ve done yet.
“Everyone’s disappointing the more you get to know them”-Synecdoche new york
Eh, people will disappoint you if you put them on a pedestal. That’s more of a “you” problem than a “people” imo. (And by “you” i mean, Charlie Kaufman? Probably?)
It’s more a statement about people’s tendency for people to only show their most positive traits when first getting to know someone. As you learn more and more about them they slowly fail to live up to the expectations they set because they purposely didn’t show you that.
Hell, I only show YOU guys my best parts. If you really got to know me I’d be a lot more disappointing.
Oh, sure, but that’s to be expected? I feel like when i get to know people, provided i do like them well enough (i don’t normally bother getting to know the others) my experience hasn’t been disappointment usually so much as empathy and tenderness for their flaws, and greater trust too as *they* also get to know the whole me, warts and all, and somehow fail to run away. It’s not always fun or comfortable (people initially hide their flaws for good reason) but if there’s respect and love on both sides, well.. Why would you be disappointed?
I guess the “love and respect” caveat makes all the difference.
Joyce grew up in a subculture that has various bad ideas about relationships to go with the bad ideas about relationships floating around in the wider American culture. So it’s no surprise things went poorly with Ethan who was having his own crisis at the time. Or that she may have been acting out some “nice girl versus mean girl” thing with Jacob.
Honestly, I think she handled the relationship with Ethan pretty well. It was toxic in nature – which she didn’t know at the start and he wanted to continue it after she found out, for his own messed up reasons, but I don’t think she handled any of the actual relationship aspects that badly.
I don’t think Ethan and Joyce had a toxic relationship. Quite the opposite actually since Ethan confided his sexuality to her and they both continued the relationship in the naive at best hope he would convert somehow. He even continued walking with her after their inevitable split. The relationship was problematic but not toxic because they both did care about each other. They might even still be dating if they were more sexually compatible. I think it’s a bit of a missed opportunity Joyce hasn’t interacted with Ethan since Mike’s death. She’d be a great support to him as they have good chemistry.
JOYCE knows this, and that’s the most relevant thing here. Joyce knows exactly what Joe was, and she likes him now. The real issue is that Dorothy 1) doesn’t even consider the possibility that she might not have all the facts and 2) Joyce needs to be managed because she is an irrational dum-dum.
Also, Roz’s morality is fine, unless you fundamentally consider sex an issue of good vs evil.
Joe isn’t predatory, he’s a himbo/slut. Being predatory implies the use of deceit or manipulation. He straight up says what he’s interested in and if the girl isn’t interested he moves on.
I can’t remember, where you the one really into this whitewashing of Joe before? Like, who completely reimagined that date that Joyce and Joe went on way back when?
This sounds familiar. Wasn’t there some nonsense about Joe hitting on Connie during the date, even though all he did was notice her cleavage and instantly got his ass beat for it?
No, I chimed in too. Like, if I go to an insurance agent and say “I’d like to buy some insurance,” is that predatory? What makes Joe unpleasant is that he assumes everyone is an insurance agent until informed otherwise. It works now and then, but rubs a lot of people the wrong way in the process.
Yes, they were one of those people who would not be told that Joe was a misogynist.
No, he doesn’t. He was most definitely not upfront with Joyce about what he wanted on that first date and was talking behind her back about ‘upgrading her from a four to a ten’ with his dick.
You are right there, and it’s weird, because I can’t recall a single other instance of Joe not being upfront about what he wanted.
I feel like that face says “I…hadn’t actually considered that.” In the abstract, sure, but like…the fact that she could really just, go do it? That’s only just sinking in
Dorothy IS aware Joyce is taking the pills for the purpose of her periods to be bearable, right?
She is, but she’s not above trying to mom Joyce out of making decisions based on her own judgement.
I’m just confused cos the pills were something she mommed Joyce into.
She’s just controlling in general.
Joyce absolutely needed the pills for purposes of pain management, regardless of anything else that might result. So Dorothy helped her get them and take them.
I’m sure Dorothy doesn’t regret that at all. But she’s more recently concluded that Joyce might be interested in having sex, and has decided to mom out over that as well.
She isn’t taking birth control for reproductive freedom, but for managing painful periods…the freedom is a by product..?
Roz and other ppl have said it’d take a bit to kick in as well, so i imagine even if a ‘date’ happened she wouldn’t jump into bed at the end
Yeah, it’s kind of weird of Sarah to say that. Even without Dorothy’s follow up, which overshadows it, you’d expect Joyce would react badly, given her concerns about the “hussy pills”.
Besides the reproductive freedom not being the primary goal, how long does it take to become effective? A whole cycle, or is it reliable sooner?
I was thinking earlier today about how there should be more room for discussion about how regrettable sex can be traumatic. (This was after reading one of those “regret is not rape” statements that some asshole said, and like, that’s a different discussion, but it spurred this.)
Anyway, I love Joyce and Joe together and do want them to have sex a some point, but I can see Dorothy’s concern. I think this is a shitty way of voicing it and that it comes off patronizing and controlling, but I can see where she’d have legitimate concern.
‘I think this is a shitty way of voicing it and that it comes off patronizing and controlling, but I can see where she’d have legitimate concern.’
Agreed 100%
Add another 100% to it. If Dorothy were coming at this as Joyce’s equal from a place of respect, and not Joyce’s fake-mom from a place of smothery affection and superiority, I think she’d be doing better.
Adding a 100% to your 100%
Dorothy has been mad condescending lately.
i mean, college seems the ideal time for ‘regretting’ a relationship/hookup as long as you’re safe enough to not get pregnant/an std (I could never understand how ppl can have drunken hookups, a bit tipsy maybe but fully blacking out seems scary enough even with friends/at home)
There’s a spectrum of regret, is what I’m saying. Also, sometimes people make safe choices and still get pregnant or an STI, so let’s remember there’s some luck involved too.
sex doesn’t seem worth the trouble to me lol, other than emotional intimacy i’d rather just have like a sterilized android or so lol (tho apparently there’s a whole niche group of ppl getting stds on purpose? either for kink/thrill/danger reasons or just to get it over with? lol, if only we lived in a world where sex wasn’t stigmatized or had negative consequences)
It’d be fantastic if people were like… Less paranoid about sex. “Oh, are they gonna regret it? Am I gonna regret it? Is a hypothetical internet fundie gonna make a judgemental post about it? Is that a cock or a syringe full of Gay Petroleum they’re putting in me?” And so on and so forth.
Everyone gets so stuck on the “thinking about thinking about how other people think about thinking about it” part, they wind up scared of the most natural thing ever.
i would like to know more about that gay petroleum syringe please
Well ya see, when two guys (it’s apparently gotta be guys, but the study didn’t specify if they had to be cis so YMMV) really wanna get it on, they can make an offering to the petrol deity known as Yo’shib’el-muhatu. If the offering is accepted, one of their dongs will develop a hinge over the course of 48 hours, which can then be opened to reveal a large, blunt syringe. This syringe takes about 300 pumps to build sufficient pressure, and once that’s built up, one of the guys can press a little button on the top, which will deliver a payload of approximately 7 liters of randomly scented petroleum. In some cultures, the scent of the petrol is considered a sign of a person’s fortune, but there’s very little proof that this has any truth to it.
I hope that cleared things up.
oh right. that. yeah, everyone knows that. *slaps forehead*
Remember that blacking out usually isn’t planned, as it’s basically just memory loss, which means sex while blacked out usually isn’t planned; even if someone knows they have a tendency to blackout under certain situations, the time in which it occurs should be hard to plan around.
I wonder if you’re conflating blacking out with passing out, though I think passed out sex is planned even more rarely (unfortunately rape of a passed out person is planned all too often and I only even mention it to make sure no one thinks I’m talking about the latter).
Yeah, part of the thing with really drunk sex is that your judgement is impaired (even if it’s not black out, so that you remember it later.) And very likely, so is the other person’s judgement, so they aren’t any better at deciding it’s a bad idea, even if they’re well-intentioned.
It’s scary, but only in theory or in the aftermath. In the drunken moment, you’re into it and it seems like a good idea.
Obviously predators take advantage of this, but that isn’t all drunk sex.
Way place and time. Dorothy could express herself less obliquely in private. Have a conversation instead of dropping hints.
Unfortunately I fear Dorothy is deliberately communicating though hints because joyce has already rejected her upfront conversation so now she’s resorting to bringing up shame. Between the pharmacy trip and that strip awhile ago where Dorothy noted joyce more ashamed of her sexuality them stealing a boyfriend (jacob) Dorothy knows how effective shame works on joyce which makes its more aggravating that she’s using it to make joyce act how she wants here.
As well all know the more you nag/berate/lovingly chide someone the more likely they are to do it
Works. Every. Single. Time.
Also Dorothy ironically feels threatened by Joyce’s fledgling sense of agency and self-assertion, despite encouraging it in Joyce for so long, as it is another sign of her unraveling sense of self-worth and put-togetherness that she long prided herself on.
This, Dorothy always wanted Joyce to be more enlightened but but she doesn’t like that it now means Joyce’s won’t always listen to her.
Pot, meet kettle.
What the hell, Dorothy
huh, i havent thought about how *roz* would react to joe/joyce news. she’s not really in either of their social circles, just a classmate. but she is very opinionated and doesnt always know how to keep those opinions to herself, even in situations where it’s been downright hurtful
i gotta admit joe and joyces coming together story reminds me juuuust enough of my own relationship that i think i may have feelings about it that are stronger than most. hell one of my nicknames is joe!! but i’m trying to stay cool about it and see it unfold
AND ALSO: You know who has some firsthand experience and possibly thoughts based on such re: sex with Joe?
Yes, but Roz’s experience is set in such a different context than Joyce’s situation that I hesitate to consider it applicable.
Honestly, probably pretty similarly to Dorothy, if phrased very differently. At least if she figures out that Joyce isn’t looking for just a casual hookup, but thinks Joe’s really serious about her.
Roz doesn’t have a great opinion of Joe.
also roz and dorothy have always butted heads, so while i think they both make good points and are coming from a good place, i feel like it will be less of a discussion and more of a fight. especially with joyce *right there next to them*
I think we’re about to see once again why sometimes our beloved main characters need Roz to be mean.
Joyce and Dorothy are good friends. Friends get to give each other unsolicited advice. Friends get to ignore friends advice if they want to, at the risk of a “told you so.”
Do people not know how friendships work?
And, yeah, I’m not sure Roz has any friends.
Roz shouldn’t interjrct but Dorothy also shouldn’t be using Joyce’s personal insecurity about being on the pill to shame her into feeling she must remain chaste. She’s just now attempting to slowly break free from her own cultural constraint only for Dorothy the move in and apply her own.
I’d easily be friends with Roz. I love me a straight-up unapologetic feminist, even the somewhat self-righteous kind
Same! I wish one of our mains would befriend her so we could see more of her.
“Do people not know how friendships work?”
A thing I ask myself every time someone defends the level of infantilism and controlling nonsense that comes out of Joyce’s friend group.
Personally, I wouldn’t remain friends with people who treated me like a dumb little puppy who needed constant oversight. If I make mistakes, those are mine to make. If I want advice, I will reach out for it. If someone I am friends with constantly offers unwanted advice, even after being told to crawl out of my ass about something? I would not continue to be around them.
Boundaries are a thing. Friendship is not a free pass to override them. I think your friendships and my friendships work differently, so that’s probably the disconnect there.
I do know how friendship works, but I don’t accept that as a good reason not to intervene when someone sounds super slut shamey to someone else, especially when that someone else has expressed they trust you (as Joyce did when she invited Roz to her party).
I ahve no idea what this “beloved main characters” thing is, because I like Roz better than anyone in that group, except possibly Sarah.
Most of us love at least one. 😛
ROZ! COME OOOOON yer bustin my precontextualized perfect bubble!
Man, its a new year, can I not be a blowjob cat this year? Damn…
Capitalize the C in your email address. See if that doesn’t fix it.
unless it doesn’t have a C in which case you’re screwed.
…jk just capitalize whatever letter
Hmm. Interesting theory. Lets try that?
Interesting, its about the email address, sorry for useless comments
Yessssss best character achieved
I don’t know if I’ve agreed with Roz so much
I don’t think Dorothy really cares if Joyce has sex with somebody. Just as long as it’s not Joe.
Ok, I don’t see anything wrong with Dorothy’s statement, except for the parental “we will regret it” (unless Dorothy means that she would blame herself for pushing Joyce onto the dick carousel by offering the pills). It could very well be about alcohol and car accident.
Another thing who talks about someone taking birth control pills in a public place and loud enough that the person at the other end of the stairs can join the discussion?!
If I remember correctly, Joyce still thinks it’s something embarrassing. next time make this a discussion on gender studies jeez
There are some differences around things like drunk driving and sex… Like, the messaging for drunk driving is simple: don’t do it. But sex?
People talk about things in public you’d think they’d want to keep private all the time. Especially if cell phones are involved. I’ve sat on the bus and heard people air their relationship dirty laundry, discuss acquiring drugs, mention confidential legal information, and more.
To be fair, it’s a comic which means no one else can hear until the plot requires them to have heard.
lol well i know recording ppl in public might be illegal depending on the state laws, but seems like you could easily make money becoming a snitch for ppl esp if you could be considered ‘invisible’ to the average person lol
ew that’s evil
Yeah, i understand blabing about yourself or about another person but here it is in your face, its like “hey Joyce hows your rash on ass?’
Yeesh. Both Dorothy and Roz are acting with their hearts in the right place and expressing themselves in possibly the worst possible respective ways.
Dor’s comment definitely comes off as being in poor taste imo. Joyce’s major anxiety has been that people will look down on her as sexually promiscuous for taking birth control. Dorothy finding out she started taking it and immediately going the heavily-implied “don’t heaux it up” route (although, as others have pointed out, it’s likely directed at her relationship with Joe) could just affirm those anxieties. I suspect it may not help that Roz is coming in with the “slut-shaming” accusation because, while not totally out of line, Joyce might hear that and conclude that she’s the “slut” that Dorothy’s trying to “shame” in this scenario.
I can appreciate her feeling the need to have a conversation with Joyce about sexual health and safety (because there’s exactly 0% chance her parents espoused any teachings beyond abstinence only), but this isn’t it
Dorothy didn’t “find out” Joyce is taking birth control, she went with Joyce to get the freaking pills.
This is completely about Joe and Dorothy is trying to be tactful and is ending up coming off negative in a different way.
Okay, simmer down.
If you reread my comment, you’ll notice I wrote that Dorothy found out Joyce started taking her birth control, which is not the same physically having the pills. Dorothy wasn’t in the room with Jen and Becky when Joyce revealed she took her birth control for the first time. It stands to reason that this is the first time she’s hearing about that and her comments come off as inappropriate to me
It may not be Dorothy or Roz’s business, but Joyce is new to all this and still has a lifetime of misinformation to sort through and plenty of men who’d love to take advantage. If something bad happens Dorothy is more likely to do damage control than Roz and that’s the difference. Roz doesn’t care about consequences.
That feels harsh on Roz. Dorothy is definitely more likely to deal with any fallout, but Roz did reach out to offer a resource to Joyce based on the somewhat vague “something happened at that party” knowledge she had.
And, even though Dorothy isn’t slut-shaming, she’s still policing Joyce, which is [i]bad.[/i] Roz is right about respecting Joyce’s autonomy, here, even if she’s not aware they’re not talking about sexual autonomy.
I’m just so frustrated with Dorothy here. Glad Roz, or SOMEONE is speaking up. It is HONESTLY not her business. Seriously.
Taking a break from piling on Dorothy to say Sarah could stand to back off a bit here too. A bit rude really. (And I don’t want to hear the “that’s just Sarah being sardonic excuse. It’s still not a nice way to treat your friend with something you know they’re having a tough time with)
I concur.
Yeah. If today’s strip started elsewhere and ended with Sarah’s comment, we’d be raking her over the coals for it. As it is, it kind of gets lost in Dorothy taking it even farther.
Agree, while I acknowledge Sarah meant to be supportive as opposed to Dorothy its still not a good excuse to bring the topic up in public when she knows Joyce doesn’t want to advertise the fact. she could have just said ‘pain free freedom’ but i think sarah also has trouble not thinking of joyce as the ex fundi on bc.
one of those sort of rare instances where im just sitting here uncomplicatedly agreeing with Roz
stop making roz the sensible one, it doesn’t suit her
Yeah, we want a completely hateable character with no complexity
Like Mary
I get Roz’s point. I get that she’s making a great counterpoint to the point she thinks Dorothy is making. And I can respect her willingness to ignore social convention for the sake of encouraging someone to feel safe in having sex.
But she literally just jumped into a conversation with both feet without actually having the proper context for said conversation after overhearing part of it. And that’s what really gets me. The “let’s not do anything we regret” can have more than 1 possible meaning here. It can mean “let’s not rush into having sex because virginity is precious and can only be given once so make sure you do it only with someone you love,” yes. But it can also mean “okay but let’s reconsider sleeping with Joe right away because I don’t trust that he’s changed and this is still the guy who made a list of how bangable all the girls he knew were” or possibly “let’s not jump into having condomless sex because the pill doesn’t protect you from STD’s remember” or even “look this is still a huge mental shift for you and let’s consider making sure this is something you want to do and not something you feel a godless heathen should do just to stick it to the parents you’re mad at.”
Roz is also jumping in with both feet solely to insult someone, and that’s not okay either.
Yeah Roz sucks. Even if by some merit she was absolutely spot on I’d still say she sucks because of how she entered the convo. She didn’t ask questions or clarify she just started hurling insults.
The funny thing is she’s not “slut-shaming” Joyce; if anything she’s infantilizing her, acting like her mom, exacerbated by not wanting her to fuck Joe in particular. She’d probably be like, hm, ooookay if it was someone else she was considering. Then again, Roz always seems like a parody of the particularly rigid and doctrinaire “SJWs”, so I’m gonna assume the text isn’t entirely on her side.
It is slut shaming, in a way, because Dorothy is infantilizing Joyce in an attempt to keep her from being in a sexual relationship with someone. Even though it’s doctored up with pretty words, the vibe of what Dorothy says here is basically “well, just because you have birth control, you shouldn’t go sleeping around with just anyone”. Which, you know, in a vacuum, that’s great advice.
But in a culture where women are expected to be both desirable but untouchable, where even sleeping with just one person somehow ‘ruins’ a woman and her reputation, and keeping in mind that Fundies (aka, the people Joyce was raised with) dislike birth control because “protected sex outside of marriage is bad!!!” then Dorothy is unfortunately playing into slut shaming arguments.
I’d say it’s more that she’s (maybe not intentionally?) using Joyce’s well developed sense of slut shame to push her away from letting Joe use her.
I’m not sure how much Dorothy’s thinking of the slut shaming angle and how much she’s just thinking about Joe and taking an opportunity that Sarah raised, while trying not to mention Joe, since Becky and Sarah don’t know about that.
She’s not very good at this.
Prayers up for my girl Becky, caught in the hideous vise of awkwardness that she never asked for and has done nothing to deserve
I find this kinda thing kinda interesting because it definitely shows how differently people view sex and what is/isn’t appropriate behavior when it comes to having it. Like, Joyce is the one who gets to have a say in if she wants to fuck Joe (well Joe is also involved in that decision obviously) but also if Joe is a creep or might do something to ruin her first time or worse, it’s at least responsible as a friend to warn her, right?
But like the nuance comes where that line is, how much should/can you object to this thing that has nothing to do with you. DOES it have nothing to do with her? Because if Joyce has a bad experience Dorothy is definitely going to be her support system. What is a sexual experience and how does one qualify it?
It’s all somewhat subjective, especially with different experiences, upbringings and opinions on sex. Is sex not a big deal or is it, in fact THE BIGGEST DEAL? Can a hookup, in fact, be casual?
It can but it definitely isn’t always, and it’s reasonable to expect that Joyce will not be of that mind her first time.
I think Dorothy is also (not incorrectly) expecting that if Joyce and Joe get together, she will once again have to interact with Joe on a regular basis. I think Dorothy is motivated here by both concern for Joyce and her own desires.
I think Dorothy’s concerns are reasonable, but she’s expressing herself…poorly.
It can be and it can not be. It’s when the two parties have very different expectations that things get ugly.
Dorothy thinks, correctly, that Joyce isn’t interested in a casual hookup, but in romance. She also thinks, incorrectly, but with good reasons, that Joe isn’t interested in anything but a hookup and is misleading Joyce into thinking it’ll be more. That’s a recipe for disaster that it’s definitely reasonable to try to warn your friend about – but hard to do even in the best case if that friend is crushing hard.
And Dorothy is definitely not doing it well. I don’t think that her motives are bad or that she’s just trying to control Joyce or whatever, but she’s not good at this.
I can’t speak from others’ experience, but I’ve observed that whether it is no big deal or the biggest deal depends on who is experiencing it. Some are one way, some the other, some in between, and for some it’s different in different relationships. Some people can do casual, some can’t, and some only think they can. When partners have different reactions, that can be really stressful.
Even if you can handle casual, if that’s not what you think you’re getting because the other person is pretending romance in order to seduce you, it’s not going to go well.
Which isn’t what Joe’s doing of course, but it’s not unreasonable for Dorothy to think so.
golly dorothy is infantilizing joyce something fierce
It is her nature.
Joyce, stung: “Dorothy, why???”
Dorothy: “YOU KNEW WHAT I WAS”
Joyce’s pause and lack of response here makes me think this is the moment where she’s truly realizing the correlation between taking her BC and the possibility of getting physical with Joe. Suddenly that option becomes very real.
Can’t believe I’m saying this, but I haft to agree with Roz.
Dorothy of all people should know that Joyce wouldn’t be taking those pills for anything other than the minstrel cycle pains. Hell she spent the last few days worried about anyone knowing she’s going on the pill because she thought that someone was going to shame her for it. The day before Dorothy was trying to convince Joyce not to be afraid of that happening, yet here we are with her undoing that work herself like what the fuck?
Is this because of Joe? If she’s that hanged up over them than maybe she needs to Reevaluate some things because she’s not acting like herself…besides the over bearing mother hen routine.
She’s really just trying to say, “Dont Fuck JOe” only but coding it in Euphemisms not to tell everyone instantly ( for some reason ) this is a concern makes it look worse.
Or I dunno.
Maybe Dorothy hs developed stronger feelings for Joyce
The Dorothy & Joyce lesbian love running jokes aside. There wasn’t this desperate reaction between them when Joyce was with Eathan and even if didn’t approve of Jacob she atleast wasn’t, well ito quote Joyce ” Up her ass” about it.
Does she just hate Joe that much?
Remember, she knows surface-level dudebro Joe. She doesn’t know the Joe that Joyce is falling for.
Even as a dudebro, I don’t think that really warrants this type of reaction. Dorothy said her piece to both parties which is fine, but now Dotty is trying to manipulate Joyce to stop this relationship, whereas if Joe was really the person she thinks he is he’ll end the relationship himself after they have sex and then Dorothy can throw out her “told you so”, Dorothy will be rid of Joe finally and Joyce will be a little wiser from now on.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to try to keep your friend from making the kind of mistake that leads to them getting seduced then dumped and you getting to say “I told you so”.
Dorothy isn’t going about it well, but if she was right about Joe, this would be pretty traumatic for Joyce.
Would it really? I think that’s a pretty big assumption. Maybe what Joyce needs is a casual hook-up or fwb. Or maybe not. The point is that that’s not Dorothy’s call to make, really, and ASSUMING that there’s NO WAY Joyce could possibly handle having casual sex with a boy and that also because of that, she should intervene and judge Joyce’s every potential sexual partner is. Woof!
Dorothy can give her opinion on Joe, and already has, and probably should more directly and then just leave it at that. That’s what good friends do–tell you what they think, but leave you to make your own decisions (unless it’s to do with something genuinely dangerous, and even then you have to pick your battles carefully or risk alienating them entirely.)
Joyce might be able to handle casual sex now – though it goes against basically every bit of characterization we’ve seen from her. It was only days ago she was freaking out about getting “hussy pills”.
But that’s not the point: Being seduced and then dumped isn’t the same as agreeing to casual sex. Joyce isn’t looking for casual sex. If Joyce does get together with Joe, she’s looking for an actual romantic relationship. And Dorothy knows Joe’s not up for anything but casual. She’s wrong about that, but thinks she has good reason to not trust him if he says otherwise.
Also, yeah, dorothy does risk alienating Joyce here. She’s very definitely not doing this well.
They really need to talk about this more openly, which they haven’t yet had the opportunity to do, at least on screen. They were either with Joe or now with Sarah and Becky. So Dorothy hasn’t really had the chance to talk about her concerns, nor has Joyce had the chance to talk about how she knows that Joe really has changed.
I don’t fully disagree, but I don’t fully know where you’re getting the idea that Joyce is looking explicitly for a romantic relationship and exclusively for a romantic relationship. The read I get from her right now is that she doesn’t know WHAT she wants, really.
She’s being bombarded with lots and lots of new feelings and her entire framework for understanding reality has been ripped to shreds, which included that the POINT of romance was only for marriage and christian children. She might well want to distance herself from that and try new, heathen things! Like casual sex!
Whether that will be good for her in the long run is debatable, but I don’t think that “joyce wants a romantic relationship exclusively and could only ever want that” is a given here.
Quite frankly, wouldn’t it be just PEAK DRAMA for Joe to be the one who wants a romantic relationship, but Joyce</i< just wants to try sex with someone she trusts, and nothing more?
I'd scream DYW from the rooftops but I'd love every second of it tbh.
I’m not even sure she wants any relationship with Joe. I don’t think she’s fully adjusted to the idea that he’s interested in her yet.
But again, it was only a day or so ago she was freaking out about getting the “hussy pills”. She’s certainly not thinking consciously about having casual sex yet. Maybe someday she’ll get there, but there’s been no sign of it yet. Even just having sex in a relationship is still going to be a big deal for her.
I’m kind of expecting that if this argument goes any further, Joyce is just going to disappear on them. Like, Dorothy turns back from Roz and Joyce has long since left (other cast may or may not have noticed).
(though if Joyce wants to yell I’d enjoy that)
I see that too. Neither Joyce or Becky even turned around, Sarah only turned her head.
Roz is accusing Dorothy of “always” slut-shaming. But Dorothy dated Walky for several weeks/months (which was probably well known on the floor).
In an ideal world, people could have sex with whomever they want with no repercussions. (No regrets about “what did I do”, no condemnation from other people….) But we don’t live in an ideal world, and its possible for problems to arise from sex…. people have bad experiences they regret, they get unfair condemnation, etc.. Dorothy even talked about that with Joyce once, talking about how “god forgives but voters do not” (or something along those lines). The problem is that Roz seems to live in the fake/ideal world without considering the fact that not everyone has joined her there yet. Dorothy seems to be smart enough to at least understand the problem.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/basting/
Generally speaking, slut shaming isn’t aimed at people in a relationship aside from those who shame because it’s premarital hankypanky.
It’s because they consider someone to have had sex easily, often, and/or with a “significant” number of people that the varying degrees of shamers spew their idiocy.
Also Roz definitely knows people don’t share her viewpoint; that’s why she’s so vocal about it.
i think i remember joyce being more ‘slut shamey’ against roz than anyone else tho leslie did tell roz to go easy on her and ‘let her grow’ and such
It’d be nice if ppl could do what they want sexually and the only bad ‘repercussion’ is any drama from say, cheating, but that’s more of a choice than like an accidental pregnancy even after precaution
I just realized a good reason for Becky’s sideglance here, is that she in fact had premarital hanky panky recently. And she’s been grappling with some of the aftermath of that. Namely the swing between “that was amazing! I had sex with my girlfriend and I had fun!” to “God must be mad at me now, am I bad for this?” which is primarily the reason behind her hiding the hanky panky from Joyce. I’d love it if this leads to Becky and Joyce having a talk together. They’ve kinda repaired their friendship, but it also feels like there’s a lot of things left unsaid.
I do wonder what Becky makes of Dorothy’s judgmental tone here in the context of her own hangups. Does she see it and Joyce on the pill as separate issues or does she take it to mean Dorothy is secretly judging her too?
*grabs popcorn*
*throws popcorn at the screen*
booooo Doroth..! no, Roz… no, Sar… oh i don’t care, boooooooo!!!
This comic has been going for over 10 years so I’m sure I’ve forgotten something, but when else has Dorothy been slut-shamey? Or is Roz just pulling stuff out of her ass because Dorothy isn’t encouraging Joyce to bang the whole football team before lunch and then the basketball team for an afternoon refresher?
idk if she directly slutshamed roz in her article but the way she talked to her did kinda frame it as a way of her “using her body/sex tape just to get at her sister” which i suppose is still judgmental for seeing her ‘weaponizing sexuality’ as opposed to her being free (the only thing roz did ‘underhanded’ at that time was not letting joe know he was being recorded as far as i know tho i’m sure he would’ve agreed to a sex tape but irl i’m pretty sure filming someone without consent is a crime even if it doesn’t become a viral online vid)
Joe did, in fact, know that he was being recorded and that it would be uploaded to the internet. (Either of those would have been MAJORLY bad if he hadn’t been informed.) What he hadn’t been made aware of was who Roz’s sister was and that it would attract political attention.
He had a line like “If a girl asks you to make a sex video, you say yes!”
I think the line I mentioned is to Dorothy, when interviewing him for the paper. I can’t find it though, but I did find this one where he confirms to Danny that he was into it being filmed.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/cam/
got it just after commenting
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/interview-2/
ah right. kinda shitty to tape it to danny’s foot but otherwise everything was pretty consensual/chill
I believe it’s a state by state basis on whether you need consent to record someone.
That said, the various factors like if it’s audio vs video, if the person is identifiable in the recording, whether nudity is shown, if the sex acts themselves are illegal etc. almost certainly matter.
I think this is the main one
“you put up a sex video, what do you think?”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/judge/
Also less shamey but still kind of shamey, and also just weird and unappealing
“should we be jealous of something that will make you unelectable?”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/babybirds/
How is “you put up a sex vide” is slut shaming, given Roz made a video of her having sex with Joe to use it as a weapon against her sister?
It is judging Roz for an underhand political act that ignores a lot of unspoken rules (and maybe the law).
As far as I remember, Joe agreed to having the video taken but not to it being all over the internet. He probably just though Roz wanted something to remember him by.
Because the question was “Did you judge me?” and the answer was essentially “of course I did.” She didn’t just say “You put up a sex video” in a vacuum
Also, Joe did agree
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/interview-2/
Dorothy also admitted she judged Ross for reasons apparently irrelevent to the interview itself (https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/compete/) (and she did ask the important questions, ie about it being a political move
I’m not saying Dorothy isn’t judging Roz, she plenty is. But judging and slut-shaming are not the same thing.
I’m not even saying Roz is right, but from Roz’s side there are a lot of observations that would make it seem like Dorothy is slut shaming, including this page’s conversation, as Roz has no context to know that Dorothy is talking about something specific and not just telling Joyce not to have sex (Roz also knows that Joyce is on birth control, but not that it was unrelated to sex, which probably doubles down on the illusion that Dorothy’s trying to stop Joyce from fucking)
There’s the context, thanks. Bad enough for Roz’s hair-trigger anti-sex-rhetoric radar to go wild, but probably mainly Dorothy judging Roz’s choice in light of Roz’s electability.
Ok, I won’t argue that Joe’s ability to make decisions might be impaired by his hornyness, though it’s tempting.
Ah, in one strip Dorothy needled Roz about having an OnlyFans with something along the lines of “That’s gonna make you unelectable to public office.”
OOP never mind someone already mentioned this
On the one hand, Roz is not wrong. On the other, Roz is not right.
i don’t consider myself hugely sexual but college/dumb peak youthfulness would probably make me ‘double down’ and sleep with someone even faster
(still being as safe as possible. maybe like being pegged with a strapon [sry if that’s too inappropriate to say/idk if you can black out text on here lol])
Long as you make sure it’s your own strap-on. Sharing toys is irresponsible.
i mean if they’re nice and washed???
*monkey-hiding-face-in-shame-(yeah-i-know-that’s-not-what-that-monkey-means-but-that’s-how-i-typically-use-it)*
Aside from you possibly tattling on yourself here, I’m kinda just repeating what’s been screamed at me. Everything I’ve seen online so far has been the equivalent of the Muses frantically shaking their hands in the camera and shrieking*. Apparently, there’s still a risk of catching people’s ever-present and universal diseases, even if you boil your toys in washing-up liquid and antibacterial cider after every use.
*(Hercules reference.)
oh ok? i haven’t encountered those muses but i guess i haven’t been chatting about dildo hygiene online much. i don’t really get how boiling sex toys would not be good enough while it’s fine for, say, cafeteria knives and forks, not to mention surgical implements. maybe it’s a “better safe than sorry” type of advice?
Me, in my first reading of this: “Wait, who’s fucking themselves with cafeteria knives???”
“i get surgical tools, of course. but cutlery???” =P
I hadn’t GOTTEN THAT FAR yet.
I assume there’s proper care out there but feels like it’d be expensive (or some kinda humble brag) if a lesbian bought a new strap on each time she hooked up with a girl, tho that’d be an interesting collection lol)
This is her indirectly saying “don’t get with Joe”, isn’t it. :\
When she said it directly, Joyce didn’t comply. Not sure why she’d think an indirect (and 300000% transparent) variation would work.
If you repeat and rephrase enough, eventually you’ll wear your target down and get compliance, of course. That’s how you stretch one point out to a whole argument.
/s
I’m just waiting until Joyce gets fed up and dismisses her with a sarcastic “yes mother” or “okay, Carol”.
Or you’ll find the argument that works.
Same thing, really.
Because she’s not good at this.
Makes more sense than that she’s just expecting Joyce to go sex wild for no reason.
i think she was more direct about it earlier asking point blank if she liked joe and “you’re just horny”
Tho given how ‘repressed’ everyone says joyce is, i’d think five mins of like french kissing would prolly tide her over for now if not like “second base”/some groping or so lol/you can still do things that aren’t full blown ‘sex’ or whatever
Roz is generally wrong about this, like when has Dorothy really sex-shamed? Is Roz still mad Dorothy thought what Roz did with Joe was actually really fucked up? Because it was. Joe being cool with it once it happened didn’t mean Joe wasn’t exploited for Roz’s intended benefit,.
On the other hand, in this case, Roz is right that Dorothy is overstepping and should respect Joyce’s autonomy.
Yeah, I don’t generally side with Roz, but she has a point here.
On the other hand, someone should probably warn Joyce that birth control isn’t immediately effective, and she needs to wait at least a week to have actual “reproductive freedom”. Also, that she really shouldn’t have sex if she’s going to spend the next several hours panicking in Dorothy’s room about it.
Think it’s a bit early to assume Joyce doesn’t already know this information and assuming she’s going to go right for it and have a break down is Dorothy’s way of trying to stop her from being with Joe.
Joyce has been intensely homeschooled for years and carries around so much shame about all things sex related that I imagine the whole “These take a week to actually make any changes to your body, don’t have sex before then” part of the instructions was mostly drowned out by the internal screaming in her head, and the overwhelming sound of blood rushing past her ears.
I’m doubtful she’ll immediately jump into bed with someone anyways, but it might be worth re-iterating the safety parts while they’re talking about reproductive freedom. I’d take my chance at being a little be over-cautious and ruining the joke, rather than have my friend drop out of college because she got pregnant due to not understanding her medication.
You know, people who start dating earlier than college usually start with cuddling and smooches not full blown sex and get a feeling for what they like and don’t like.
Dorothy thinking Joyce shouldn’t jump in the deep end is a healthy impulse, she’s just so bad at emotions it will backfire.
Something tells me Joe’s going to hit the brakes if Joyce somehow overrides her shame and they get to that point*. His encounter with Liz set that up. (She even had the triangle smile and everything!)
*Remember, Anti-Joyce is in there somewhere.
kinda odd to assume that the girl that can’t eat a taco bell salad without overseeing its construction would jump straight into sword swallowing and pogo-sticking.
the girl is too nervous to take birth control pills, and you think she’s gonna go handholding with whats his name?
she already held hands with Joeee
Honestly we have all seen just how THIRSTY Joyce is for hot men. Dotty’s worries are not exactly unfounded.
Yeah, incredibly horny and sexually repressed isn’t a good combination.
She is likely to move too fast in the right circumstances and to regret it afterwards. It’s likely to be awkward anyway and it would be really bad if Dorothy was right about Joe.
Sword swallowing is probably not on the menu, but pogo sticking probably is
im with roz. dorothy is trying to control what joyce is doing and put judgement on it. i think shes had enough of that already in life. taking this medication was hard for joyce and its not ok to then be like now dont use it for THAT like most people do.
Worse Dorothy knows how much Joyce hates people assuming she’s just taking the pills for sex but is going out of her way to imply infront of her friends that was her motivation to control her behavior. It’s putting Joyce in a no win situation of gelling scrutinized no matter what she does.
Honestly yeah that was a super shitty thing for her to say
I saw this comment yesterday and wanted to agree and add some stuff, but I misplaced it until now, and forgot what I was going to say, so: “yeah, this”
Generally the hand is not the only place it’s going !
I just adore Roz.
Also, to anybody who’s forgotten, Ross obtained Joe’s consent. Joe didn’t necessarily expect the video to go viral, but that’s kind of the ideal result when you decide with a partner to post a sex video publicly to the internet (like, presumably you want people to see it, that’s kind of the point, and this is supported by the fact that Joe seemed quite pleased with the outcome), so the idea that she did wrong by him is honestly a little weak.
Ross, huh? 😏
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that Sarah making the first comment, and the response about “congrats on your new… reproductive freedom.” But as I recall, these pills were prescribed for something other than unbridled sexual activity – and Sarah, as Joyce’s roommate, should have been well aware of this. So why the crack about “reproductive freedom”?
Sarah’s joke was a sign of support and held no passive aggressive nagging, unlike another friend everyone here is questioning she’s not the one making a comment that implies Joyce might abuse said new “reproductive freedom” as if she’s expecting the first thing she’s going to do with them is fuck a certain somebody.
It was still backhanded, joke or not.
Honestly, this post of all of them kind of made me remember, “Right, all the characters are flawed and broken in some way, we shouldn’t really be rooting for or jeering any of them. The whole POINT of this comic is that they are all people with trauma growing up in a world that keeps challenging their preconceived notions”
IE They are more toony/zany examples of what real young adults go through, with a touch of Oh Dear God The Trauma for many of them thanks to an insane fundie dad and… Whatever the hell you call the corpse that was Blaine
“Toedead” seems to be the popular name.
Whoops, that was Ross.
“Good riddance” is more applicable to Blaine.
I personally use “haha, fucker’s dead”.
i think Blaine now goes by “Blam”
Damn, the Newgrounds rating system has gotten intense.
One in the hand, two in the tush… Dotty needs push why Joe dush.
Politely, what the fuck are you saying?
Somethin’ about two in the same hole, I reckon.
Suet’s a commenter-poet.
they commonly post weird couplets.
on phones we can’t hover,
and their wit is a stumper
but they seem to have fun, so… fuck it!
“Before Joyce starts to become Joe’s boo and soon go Roz II,
Dotty needs to cut the mystery and spill the tea”
… in Variety Speak!
It’s kind of funny since what Dotty says boils down to “Don’t hook up with and have sex with Joe”. Meanwhile one of the first things we have seen Roz do is have sex with Joe XD
Pretty restrained Dorothy-bashing today in the comment section. Having Roz as your antagonist makes wonders.
When you go, “Yeah Roz! Make Dorothy rethink shit!”, it makes you pause and go, “Uh… Wait… What? No, something is wrong here…”
Hahaha!
Dorothy not understanding how to be more indirect when appropriate made her a bad candidate for the R.A. position. Now Dorothy not understanding when to be more direct is handicapping her ability to healthily communicate to Joyce her concerns about Joe. These are probably going to be good lessons for her moving forward, but they’ll be painful in the now.
Ooh, this is a nice thematic bow between then and now, well spotted! I always appreciate a comment with the distance to understand these well-drawn characters as fictional characters with arcs and themes, and not just commenting with whatever reaction you would have if you ran into these people in real life
Thank you! Glad to know you like it.
Accidentally pressed the flag button because the genius design places it next to the reply button. Didn’t mean to do it.
It’s been so long I forgot that these two very much do not like each other
Wow. I didn’t expect Roz to be the one to call out Dorothy.
Speaking of bodies, Roz, yours is super busy. Busybody who loves jumping into the middle of conversations to tell people they’re doing caring about other people wrong.
I mean, she’s not as off the mark about what Dorothy and Joyce are talking about as Dorothy is about the Joe situation. But I guess the difference is Dorothy is trying to help her friend who she thinks is about to make a virgin mistake that will give her wildly wrong ideas about sex, while Roz is just trying to shut someone she knows from class up.
why would Roz just want to shut up Dorothy up? despite the fact they competed for RA job (however unbelievable either of them would get the job) they don’t seem to have particular beef with each other
you’re right that Roz inserts herself into conversations without invitation, but she’s consistently done so when the subject is about sex education, slut shaming or the protection of queer rights.
it doesn’t make her right, but she does have a motivation beyond being the centre of attention or pettily shutting Dorothy up for no reason
To my understanding, Roz sees Dorothy as basically a younger clone of Hillary Clinton. Dorothy is in favor of working for reform through the system and isn’t as far left as Roz. To a lot of leftists, that’s worse than being a MAGA chud because that kind of person a) has a lot more political power than someone like Roz and b) claims to be on the same side but spends most of their time holding back real progress, so clearly they must hate leftists more than they hate fascists, and are therefore fascists themselves*
So couple that with some personal interactions that don’t go well, and Roz is basically going to try and read everything she does as negatively as possible.
*This is an opinion that is sometimes true but other times frustration that folks can be genuinely progressive and still hold different opinions about how things should be done.
I don’t know where else she would want this interaction to go? Unless the goal is to have a nuanced discussion about how healthy or unhealthy it would be for Joyce to have casual sex from yelling distance.
I mean, she might want a nuanced conversation as a goal. I never pretended her methods are good or effective, but I do think her motivations are (misplacedly) good
Becky, next strip “YESSSS!!! FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!!!!” Or at least that’s what I’m thinking right now.
Is it me, or is Joyce’s face one of realization? Like “wait, I am already taking birth control for other reasons, so miiiight as well…???”
I don’t think she’s got as far as “might as well…” or will for some time. It might be the face of “oh! That‘s what you’re going on about!”
Probably more like: “They do think I’m a hussy because I’m taking the hussy pills.”
I have to agree with Roz; despite being sexually active herself, Dorothy is always quick to judge others, on their own sexual encounters.
wow that’s such a backhanded compliment from Dorothy in the first panel: “it sounds unbelievable to me that you were able to take care of yourself without being treated like a child or a puppy, but congrats”
That wasn’t Dorothy. It was Sarah.
Even if from Sarah she could try a bit harder to sound happy that Joyce is taking the initiative. Sadly everyone seems to be giving joyce the child star treatment and acting every instance of her growing up is some kind of unnatural event.
Huh, I owe Dorothy an apology then, though I repeat my comment but directed at Sarah this time.
THANK YOU ROZ, she needs to be taken down from her trauma based high horse. Seriously I acknowledge a lot of this is just her wanting to keep control, but that “Too much freedom” line was too much.
Too much freedom all at once can be a real shock to the system and overwhelm, especially the repressed. This is why the Rumspringah or whatever the Amish call it is so effective at retaining Amish culture and identity. The Amish teens go out, get loose and party, get disillusioned/mildly traumatized, and then run back home and stay there the rest of their life, raising their kids in the same way.
Dorothy is trying to avoid all of Joyce’s progress rebounding and snapping back at itself.
That’s a bit of a stretch I think. If attempted rape, kidnapping, and watching someone die isn’t enough to stop joyce from progressing then what makes you think her dating Joe again Is going to cause her to run back home and resume religion?
Everything you mentioned happened to Joyce. They weren’t her decisions. People misinterpret the Amish tradition and think it’s about sending them into the big scary world and then they see the stuff that you describe, and they get scared back. That is an element, to be sure, but the bit that actually works is not what others do, but what the Amish teens themselves do. It’s less about fear and more about leaning on regret and guilt.
And I don’t think anything is going to make Joyce specifically run back home to her religion, it was a real-world example, not an analogy. But I think Dorothy is aware of these patterns, and she’s understandably convinced that Joe is just going to break her heart, probably within two or three weeks based on how her life has been going since College started. Dorothy can’t protect Joyce forever, and she knows it, especially with that Yale letter, but she can at least stop what appears to her like Joyce just punching herself in the face.
I am very much enjoying that both Roz and Dorothy are right, and neither of them are correct. It’s good writing.
“WE” might regret? Who the heck is “we”, Dorothy, unless you’re offering up a threeway maybe you should butt out a bit harder.
I do love the panel line construction that puts a big, stark barrier between “people who have no boundaries around Joyce, to Joyce’s detriment” and Joyce herself. May it be symbolic of Joyce unwinding herself from “friends” who currently seem to care more about the image they have of her than of the actual person.
As for Sarah engaging in light mockery of Joyce, that’s been earned since 2011. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/sisters-2/
“WE decided? MY best interests?”
Honestly I feel like a lot of Dorothy’s controlling behavior would die down if she comes into the realization that she has a crush on Joyce.
I’m not saying that as a shipper. I genuinely believe that’s what going on.
I feel like a lot of people are on Dorothy’s case because she’s a stick in the mud. She advises caution, forethought, and planning, and that’s boring nerd stuff. She’s boring.
Which I get, believe me, but as someone who *likes* boring, I personally think Dorothy is a good influence on Joyce and should be allowed to have opinions like this.
Dorothy ga…warukunai yo ne.
No. People are on Dorothy’s case because she’s continually treating Joyce like a child, butting in where she has specifically been asked to butt out, and generally assuming that her opinion is the only possible correct one.
If you’re like that, then good for you, but there will be people like me who have no interest in having that energy around them. Not because it’s “boring” or “cautious” or “requiring forethought” or “boring nerd stuff” but because it’s “intrusive” and “rude” and “overstepping boundaries”.
I personally think Dorothy is allowed to have whatever opinions she has, but not entitled to air them without consequence.
But but but first amendment and freedom of speech and and and lib’ral agender! If she say thing and other person react in any way, other person deleting her freedom!
Dorothy has not yet asked why Joyce is interested in Joe. It makes all the difference in the world that she’s not considering Joyce’s opinion at all, she just keeps saying “Do not date/sleep with Joe.”
Dotty is just wrong here. She may mean well, but this is not ok.
Given that willis told us he doesn’t want to retread plotpoints, I hope this doesnt turn into roz going off and trying to boink joe without knowing all the details
I always see sex as a blank canvas, or performance art. With practice, there are all kinds of ways to express yourself and give your partner(s) an experience, whether thrilling, comforting, playful, you name it.
In this analogy, Dorothy’s personality probably has the best outcome for first sex as painting a Rembrandt on the first try, and she’s not about to let the wrong partner get in the way. Of course, all bets are off when it’s her own sex life, because her rational side went out the window for that.
The problem is judging the results of each instance over the pattern of improvement, and for Dorothy’s personality, that applies to more than just sex.
interesting analogy (i disagree with your take on Dorothy, but that’s been trodden in like 90% of threads today so i’m leaving that aside).
i like to think of sex as just one type of social interaction (which is not really an analogy, more of an angle.) interacting with people in a successful, satisfactory, creative and authentic way is something you learn, whether the interaction is small talk, commenting on a comic strip, going on a trip with someone, or sex.
and just like all those types of interactions, some people are pretty much naturals, others will always find it challenging but still want to try, and others don’t care for it at all.
@strip title:
“Oh!”
So I take it that the borderless panel 3 depicts the exact moment when it finally occurs to Joyce that sex really is something she could actually do now.
Like, it’s always been completely off the table before because God wouldn’t like it, and she could become pregnant, and she didn’t have anyone in her life who she’d consider doing it with. (Except maybe Jacob, but we all saw how that went.) And all of those obstacles have been cleared away.
Dorothy caught onto the implications immediately, but Joyce’s habits of thought prevented her from even thinking of it as a possibility until Dorothy pointed it out. Which means that, in addition to all the problems pointed out in the threads above, Dorothy’s warning has had exactly the opposite effect than intended.
I think this is a good read. I thought it was just Joyce realizing that even Dorothy is treating it as a sex thing, even though she knows it wasn’t.
Ooh good point. And Joe’s reaction after Liz… ooooh super curious.
Panel 3 Joyce: “Oh dang I *can* do hanky panky with Joe!!”
Also Roz is so annoying and she’s honestly growing on me.
ALSO also, Willis mentioned that nobody seems to have made fanart of Other Rachel yet (remember her?) so I took it upon myself to rectify this.
https://twitter.com/namioshiro/status/1611092928356573191
Other Rachel!!!
very adorbz, and so are the ones you posted lately! *appreciate*
You mean Rachel. I saw your Tweet with Tall Rachel and Sal, your art is amazing.
She’s tagged as Other Rachel so Other Rachel she remains until word of God indicates otherwise
Dorothy’s phrasing is making this seem more about bodily autonomy, when she’s trying to give her friend romantic relationship advice.
I’m usually on the side of defending Dorothy but… Girl come on.
I think it’s clear to me at this point that Joyce has outgrown her initial friend circle and they’re not happy about it. If someone talked to me the way Dorothy talks to Joyce I’d never speak to them again.
It’s also worth pointing out that multiple times now people outside of Joyce’s immediate friend circle have all intervened on Joyce’s behalf or otherwise interacted with her in ways Dorothy in particular disapproves of.
There’s definatly a theme where all three of them at some point try to limit Joyce’s outside friendships. Sarah I can see coming around once she gets called out. Becky eventually, now that she’s starting to form close attachments other then Joyce. Dorothy…I think will have the hardest time accepting the change in joyce because it would mean to acknowledge her own underlying need for control and unlike Becky she doesn’t yet have anyone she respects enough to give her advice, probably because it woukd mean acknowledging a shortcoming.
I don’t know if she’s outgrown her friends (or at least, not all of them. If Dotty keeps trying to mother her, it may well be that Joyce has outgrown her), but she has definitely outgrown the kind of friendship they had, where she was the naive baby of the group.
Thats really the problem. They are used to the sheltered and obedient child from first semester and now despite ridiculing her for being like that nobody wants to see her grow out of the mold.
Preach it Roz!
Love how Dorothy is lecturing Joyce like a child in front of their other friends
It’s going to be so tragic if Dorothy has the conversation I gave up take for you with the response nobody asked you to do that! But that’s where this is heading. (Dorothy don’t give up Yale! Make new friends with healthier dynamics!)
hell, if she goes to yale she can even keep some of the same friends if she really wants, she just won’t be living with them.
I’m still really hoping that’s an invitation for second year (fall term), rather than the current spring term, but I’m seeing this argument coming too. Especially because Dorothy seems to have ramped up doing stuff for Joyce this term.
While Roz is off the mark with the first comment her second one is spot on. Never thought I’d agree with Roz, huh weird.
Dorothy, having expressed her reproductive freedom all over Walky, really shouldn’t be reinforcing the negative stigmas Joyce already has. A bit hypocritical, although it does befit her future political career.
My opinion on this can be summarized as:
Dorothy: I’m not in any way infantalizing, Joyce. I just think she can’t be trusted to make an objective decision about having sex with Joe because I think she’s unable to be trusted with her hormones and that sex with someone I don’t like is traumatizing.
Also she shouldn’t right away because the birth control doesn’t work yet.
Jesus Christ you all have the most absurd takes on Dorothy’s behavior. Riz is like objectively wrong about this situation as an outsider and while Dorothy’s tack is a bit off here she’s not shaming Joyce for her budding sexuality, there is almost certainly some sort of back story to Dorothy’s feelings about Joe that’s making her so defensive of Joyce. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills in these comments sometimes
Yeah I agree. I just wasn’t up for the annoying “Well Ackshually Here’s Why You’re Wrong” replies haha
Wow, Roz is really pretty when she’s angry.
Yeah, Roz has the right to say this. I like Dorothy, she’s one of my favorite characters, but what she just said was really creepy, and Dorothy has always treated Roz like some kind of insufferable twit instead of engaging respectfully. Like… Sorry, Dorothy, I normally side with you but you brought this on yourself.
Dorothy perceiving Joe as a sexual predator is a valid perspective, I think. (He sounded like an Andrew Tate fan for the majority of the time that Dorothy has known him.) I feel like she should address that with Joyce directly.