I’m 100% behind Joyce here. However good her intentions may be, Dorothy is definitely over a line by this point. As for Roz, just ugh. She’s the loud, performative type that grates on my nerves, even if I happen to agree with what they’re saying.
Joeyce currently, but basically never Joyrothy. I just don’t see the ship. I see a lot of other queer ship options as enjoyable and possible, but that one’s never been it for me.
I’m in the same boat. Love Dina and Becky and thought the Mike and Ethan was underexplored before, y’know. But Joyce and Dorothy? They’ve never clicked like that. It’s too… sexless?
Personally I’m baffled by ships that run counter to the established sexuality of the characters involved. Like, sure sometimes two characters have great chemistry and that CAN lead to them discovering their sexuality is broader than they previously thought, but also sometimes two characters can just have fantastic chemistry and also incompatible sexualities, not everything is about sex and/or romance.
As a straight man I have had phenomenal chemistry with several straight men, a couple bi men, at least one gay man, at least two lesbian women, and at least one asexual woman. At no point in any of those totally platonic relationships did anybody seriously contemplate pushing things into romantic or sexual territory (or at least, not seriously enough to have told me about it). There were of course lots and lots of jokes about such relationship evolutions made in just about all of these examples, because I and my friends tend to have a rather campy and lewd sense of humor, but everyone was always clear and open about what the lines are and when we’re joking about them. Also, for the record I’ve also had similar chemistry with straight and bi women, but they weren’t mentioned since the reason those relationships remained platonic wasn’t due to incompatible sexualities and thus has nothing to do with elephants.
I get it historically. People made queer ships out of canonically straight characters because straight characters were all they had in media to work with. Sometimes they were even teased intentionally by the creators, often below the radar of the company owning the product.
Old habits live on, but it seems much weirder to me in a strip that does actually explore such representation.
Steve Harvey’s name is too close to Steve Burton, Cloud’s English VA. It’s bordering on tangential selfcest, which is good, but not quite the vibe I was after.
Also I’m pretty sure Steve Harvey is a soulless predator who doesn’t believe it’s possible for humans to have basic morality if they’re not Christian. Then again, I guess if we’re going for crackships…
Having been a “straight” person who needed some time and distance from my former religion to safely realize I was gay, I think people are just reflecting real life! Especially when engaging with fiction, you can explore a lot of different options that don’t necessarily have to conflict each other. It’d be interesting if she was straight, and just as interesting if she discovered she was gay or bi!
There are a number of factors… sometimes non-canon ships, whether or not they go against the established sexuality of the characters, are based on “I think this would be more interesting/a more enjoyable story.” Sometimes, too, actual love interests don’t actually have good chemistry with the characters in question, or just aren’t that interesting. And yet the story insists on having them, because romance has been made overly important in a lot of media (imo).
This can leave it like, “Am I more interested in seeing this character make out with this bland, underdeveloped, who maybe we’ve been told they have a whole history with, but who came into the show three seasons in, or do I want to see them make out with this other character, who’s complex and with whom I’ve watched their relationship develop for years now?”
When straight is the societal default, a lot of characters are “established straight” by things that don’t actually fully establish that, and sometimes if it is established, it’s not unrealistic for it to change.
There’s also just people like what they like; it becomes a problem if they harass creators or other fans in the name of their ship (which has happened with a lot of media and ships, regardless of orientation; I got death threats on YouTube videos about ATLA characters when I was twelve, some people really need to chill).
Yeah this, all of your paragraphs. What you said about it making things more interesting dynamics or better matches, and re: straight being considered default.
Regarding last bit, there’s also shit like when Shelby Rabara (voice of Peridot) basically got ran off twitter by people harassing her about who Peridot should be shipped with.
I am aware that sometimes “established straight” characters are only established as such by default rather than anything actually stated in canon, and I try not to fall into that pitfall when considering a character’s sexuality, to varying degrees of success. My confusion comes in when a character has explicitly stated and demonstrated clear attraction to the opposite sex and NOT the same sex, it is a work that has a history of exploring LGBT stuff and has LGBT characters in the main cast, and yet people insist that a same sex ship with said character is OTP.
I developed a bit of a distaste for it when the CW Supergirl fandom canceled an actor for joking about how Kara/Lena “wasn’t gonna happen” in a season recap video, claiming it was homophobic. Up to that point Kara had been consistently shown to be attracted to men, had never demonstrated more than platonic or familial feelings for women, and there were openly gay and openly trans characters in the main cast, suggesting that if Kara were gonna figure out she was bi, it probably would have already been explored or at least hinted at, and if they did decide to do it without any foreshadowing or hinting, it probably would have played as forced unless they spent several seasons developing that subplot, and they didn’t really have several seasons left to do that.
I don’t take issue with people making fanworks featuring characters acting against their canon sexuality, as I am aware of the history and frankly don’t really care what people do with their fanworks, so long as they don’t try to impose their fanon onto the canon. I kinda view the Joyce/Dorothy shipping that goes on in the comments as that, especially when asking people what their preferred/predicted ship is, since this is the actual strip and not a fanwork. IMO, discussions regarding predictions of the direction the strip is going should be based only upon the established canon.
Given what’s established I could maybe see predicting that Joyce or Dorothy might discover their sexuality is broader than they previously thought, but I genuinely cannot fathom how people can take the tiny hints that may or may not even be hints about that and extrapolate it into “Joyce and Dorothy are gonna get together”. I’m not mad about it, mostly just confused how people can come to that conclusion, and despite all of the thoughtful answers that I very much appreciate, I don’t think I was told anything I didn’t already know.
I suppose some of the confusion might come from the fact that in my head there are two entirely distinct things being referenced in regard to “shipping”, one is predicting relationships that you think might become canon or that you want to become canon, which is what I’m talking about, and the other is fanworks depicting non-canon relationships, which really don’t need to be based on anything. I suppose if other people don’t make a distinction between these two things then that must be where the disconnect lies.
…Yeah, based on this comment, I don’t think this is something we’ll see eye t eye on. I felt uncomfortable reading this, honestly, so I probably won’t engage further if it comes up again with you in the future.
I don’t really have a problem with ones that are against canon sexuality (unless they’re insisting queer characters are/should be straight) or canon ships. That (particularly the latter) is the fun of shipping, that it can be something other than what the source media gives you
But sometimes they’re insisting it’s absolutely true and just about to actually happen in canon. Eventually? maybe, people learn things about themselves. But not anytime soon, and not definitely.
But for Dorothy/Joyce in particular I’ve never seen any romantic chemistry, personally. Joyce has acted a little like she had a crush in the past, but Dotty hasn’t, and I don’t think they’d make a good couple.
Yeah, I’d enjoy either one (or both) of them learning they’re queer, but I don’t ship them. I even think said realization could come from their relationship– I could see that especially for Joyce, but Dorothy too- but that wouldn’t have to mean their relationship develops into anything romantic.
I don’t really think that’s likely to happen in the comic, and I’m fine with that, but I do see the appeal.
I don’t think Dorothy has actually even commented on her own sexuality, though we know she likes men and probably doesn’t identify as any gay-umbrella since there have been times it would have made sense to mention it. She could already be bi. Just, not bi with Joyce.
(note, I know sexualities are consistent between canons, but I have no idea what’s confirmed outside of DOA).
I’ve been shipping Joe and Joyce since the rerun of Roomies where Willis pointed out they’ve always had a weird amount of chemistry and I’ve never been unable to see it. I’ve shipped them for years.
Definitely team Joece. He’s the only one who actually listens to her, instead of brushing off what she has to say while they shove her into the box they think she belongs in.
It’s just that Joyce is a fictional character to us, no one is harmed by our shipping.
To Joyce’s friends, Joyce is a real person and should be treated as such.
It was the question asked, even as a joke, so…yeah? That’s generally how people are going to respond; it sets up a much more direct route for engagement.
What moon said, but I was just in a hurry to assert that I don’t get Joyrothy (because I feel like a couple pages back people were acting like it was canon), and also “answer question” kind of overrided the “respond to main comment” in my brain
Joyce and Dorothy don’t even have a healthy friendship. Adding romance and physical stuff doesn’t fix a friendship problem, just makes a toxic relationship more toxic.
Joyce having sex with Dorothy would a MUCH bigger mistake than with Joe. Like, comic-breaking mistake, until it turned out to be a dream sequence or something. Like, I might honestly have to drop the strip if something so character-breaking happens without major repercussions. I’m having flashbacks to 9CL and Seth suddenly turning straight at even the possiblity.
She had a chance talking to Joyce alone after lunch, but the conversation might just have moved too fast and she couldn’t get back to it before the others showed up.
She’s definitely not doing this well.
It would be the most respectful way to approach this, but I guess she’s assuming joyce is either too horny or too naive to really hear such a statement about joe.
Also it would end the storyline way too fast.
“Joe? But he’s a pure innocent saint. When he’s not helping orphaned children learn maths he’s assisting at the soup kitchen. Also he told me he has never once been horny before in his life, so we’re all fine there.”
Yep, She’s trying to get Joyce to do what she wants by bringing to mind her shame on sex because both Joe and Joyce have already made clear they aren’t dropping their ship to appease her. It’d really frustrating that Dorothy would stoop to this level to get her way.
The closest she’s come is saying “he’s bad news” and “he’s a bad match”. Nothing about why. Nothing that could lead Joyce to talking about why she thinks he’s changed.
It really is weird she’s putting on some kind of pretense here when she’s flat out told Joyce this is about her interest in Joe. My guess is for whatever reason she doesn’t want Roz and the others to know.
like Joyce: “Your (penis) has already been around everywhere”
Joe: “Leslie! Slut shaming!” so she knows what joes about and has been around for joe to offer support through the texting that dorothy doesn’t know about and all that
yeah this is what I don’t get re:Dorothy’s treatment of Joyce or even some reader’s opinion of the situation – isn’t Joyce already perfectly aware of Joe’s usual behavior (which I don’t think is bad btw he doesn’t coerce anyone, he just likes casual sex OMG)? Idk I feel like I’ve even seen her express some of that conflict between her initial impression of him v her feelings for him now. She’s not nearly as ignorant as some ppl think.
Yeah. Spelling out more about why he’s bad news would open up a space for Joyce to defend him and say why she thinks he’s not. Let Dorothy know about the changes he’s been through.
dorothy knows that joyve is completely aware of joe’s past behavior. joyve has been on the receiving end of joe’s past behavior. while i dont think it would hurt to be abundantly clear about her isses the idea that dorothy is being vague is ??? everyone knows what joe is like. everyone knows what joe’s problems are. joyce knows what dorothy thinks of joe.
Dorothy: I’m not in any way infantalizing, Joyce. I just think she can’t be trusted to make an objective decision about having sex with Joe because I think she’s unable to be trusted with her hormones and that sex with someone I don’t like is traumatizing.
Joyce: None of your business!
Dorothy: Of course it’s my business! I must make all of your decisions! I AM THE PREDESTINY OF JOYCE!
Oh she’s in the business. Business of kicking your ass. And let me tell you. Business is booming. She’s open for business. Business of giving you the business.
Yup. Dorothy’s behavior here is bad, but well-intentioned. Roz’s is arguably more correct (don’t slut-shame, let women make their own decisions about sex), but her motives sour that for me, immensely–it’s not about empowering Joyce, it’s about making sure everyone in the Tri-County Area knows her agenda.
This person’s right for the wrong reasons, that person’s wrong for the right reasons, she said this, well she did that, it’s all just noise that needs to stop. In Joyce’s place, I’ve had much more severe outbursts, and the annoying part is that literally any negative reaction leads to the put-upon individual being painted as this suddenly aggressive freak who needs to stop causing problems by existing.
Personal/physical body types/blood tests and all that aside, wish birth control was something you could buy OTC as easily as say, tylenol.
Interesting to call it ‘control’ versus, say, ‘prevention’, because since there’s medicine to lessen the percentage, there’s also fertility pills that’d make you more likely to have kids as well (tho that’s arguably an even harder process to go through for couples struggling to conceive [if only ppl could switch problems, i feel sorry for the ppl trying for years while a young teen could accidentally be pregnant with twins after one try])
(don’t mind me just tangenting/thinking to myself lol)
I read a sci-fi story with an alien race who does things in a more sensible way. Young people lay eggs, and older couples adopt and raise them. I can’t stop thinking about how much more rational this approach is, even if it would be different for mammals.
Well, that’s basically what surrogacy is. It’s just more complicated and costly for humans because of how insanely intense pregnancy + childbirth is for our species
Well, while it’s not the full combined contraceptive with estrogen, having worked behind a pharmacy counter i can tell you i sold the mini pill as easily and often as Panadol. I’m not sure the exact differences between that and the prescription combined pill but I’m still glad it was so accessible
Oral contraceptives should absolutely be available OTC. Today’s pills typically contain much smaller doses of hormones than earlier pills, so they’re safe for the vast majority of women to use. It’s true that some women may have problems with basic pills, and may need some medical advice to find the best solution. That’s no reason to make every woman who wants to control her fertility jump through legal and medical hoops, though. It’s just too bad that the whole issue remains hopelessly bogged down in politics.
Yes it is. All of her friends hound her to pick up her her pills asap then act weirded out when she does something on her own. It was never about helping Joyce really it was always about congratulating themselves on taking care of the ‘child’ in the group. Hoping she continues to speak out and not cave to their “helping”.
There’s a big difference between “not caring” and “not treating Joyce like a child just because she doesn’t have your breadth of experience”. I think they need to learn to trust Joyce, or she needs to find some friends who will.
Not caring isn’t the issue, it’s their lack of respect for Joyce as a person. Becky is a good example, she was complaining about being the one to who would have to hand feed Joyce pills, proceeded to rope Jennifer in on the basis that Joyce really needed help making it out like was for Joyce’s own good despite Joyce saying otherwise…then when it turns out Joyce actually did take a pill without her she has nothing positive to say just mutters about Joyce changing. For all the complaning and talk of helping Joyce their not really happy when she shows independence and that is a huge obstacle for Joyce in her journey to adulthood.
Not necessarily saying they don’t care, just saying they’re showing that care in totally inappropriate ways that seem mostly driven by their own agendas. It’s important to draw a line between “caring” and “infantilizing”. Joyce is an adult, at least legally (sorta-mostly). She’s at least trying to learn to act like one, and her friends need to respect that. And yeah, that sometimes means shutting up and letting friends make what you think is a bad decision, just because it’s ultimately their decision to make. Maybe they’re right and you’re wrong. Even if you are right, sometimes the best thing you can do is let a friend stumble. Just be there to help them up again.
i knew she was gonna blow up at roz. well, everybody i suppose . and becky staying quiet for now. makes me wonder if this’ll discourage her even more to share with joyce that she and dina finally got intimate
treating sex like a big decision is indeed reinforcing the cultural norm that virginity is important and tangible and/or something that can’t be regained once it is lost.
Dorothy is not thinking of that: she’s thinking that sex is a big decision for Joyce (and she’s not entirely wrong about that), so she’s failing to check her language for this sort of thing that does reinforce the church’s teachings about sexual purity, especially in regards to women.
In short: Dorothy is not wrong, but Roz is more right
Yeah I don’t really get the logic in downplaying what a big thing it can be. Even if you put aside the religious factor there’s a ton of emotional and physical intimacy involved. Saying sex isn’t a big decision is like downplaying the importance of your own body/mind, and pushing people to be irresponsible with an act that can have some pretty damn big ramifications if you’re not careful.
It’s no a binary though, there’s nuance between “sex is the biggest decision that will affect the rest of your life” and “sex is no big deal”; and I should emphasize that Joyce was never taught there’s anything in-between until (presumably) she attended Leslie’s class.
Not only was she never taught, she was actively told thinking or exploring other options was The Devil.
Wow. Sex isn’t a big decision for me, it wasn’t a big deal when I had it for the first time. That isn’t “downplaying the importance of my own body/mind” that is simply having a different opinion and experience in life than you.
I have to say that your comment here hits a lot of slut-shaming buttons all on its own. Other people not giving the same weight to something that you personally do doesn’t mean they’re downplaying it, being irresponsible, or not understanding their own importance.
Sex was a VERY big deal for me right up until the first time. And then it’s been no big deal and a lot of fun since then, once I got over the hangup.
Other people’s mileage can and will vary, but the important thing to note here is that you can’t predict how that will end up–I was brought up not quite as extreme as Joyce but was pretty extreme anyway (like, I took MYSELF out of sex ed and told my mom I didn’t want “the talk” because I figured if I knew less about it, there would be less TEMPTATION, etc.).
And then after my first time, which was a random hookup with a friend who was known to be promiscuous while I was in a bout of depression after giving up my childhood religion, I kinda just completely snapped out of it.
… yeah, there’s kinda a couple reasons I’m on team Joeyce.
I mean even putting the emotional stuff aside, it’s a big physical undertaking the first time. At least when you have the parts Joyce has and they’re faulty in some way (speaking from experience). Like, granted I’m not the best point if reference but given Joyce has probably never put so much as a tampon up there and she has a likely reproductive disorder, it’s gonna hurt. Especially since joe is a big dude. And when it hurts and you already have hangups about sex it’s the worst pain.
Like I’m definitely super projecting here and I know p/v sex isn’t the only type but sex is fuckin physically stressful (and in my ace opinion not worth the hype)
Not always and not for everyone. Joyce’s education since almost birth has been in absolutes, especially when it comes to sex. Right now she probably needs to hear Roz’s approach to it more than Dorothy’s.
(I do think sex is a big deal for Joyce, but just knowing the fact that virginity is a arbitrary construct and approaching sex at your own pace for your own sake instead of “it’s correct to wait until holy matrimony” can be so so freeing for an ex-churchy girl)
It’s always a big decision because you can’t do it haphazardly. You gotta be protected, both physically and emotionally, and make sure everyone having the sex is down to have the sex. And make sure everyone having the sex is far enough removed or hierarchically similar that you aren’t actually unintentionally taking advantage of someone.
And that’s assuming you can attract a partner to have the sex. It’s a big decision for everyone involved. And stresses me right the hell out.
Though, no matter how small a decision it is for you, you still need to keep those points in mind. That the proper protections are in place – for pregnancy and STDs (both of which remain huge deals, regardless of your state of mind). That the other people involved are enthusiastically consenting and on a similar wavelength about how big a deal it is. That there isn’t some power imbalance that messes with the other person’s consent.
No matter how casually you take it, it can still turn into a big deal.
Think of early Joe, for whom having sex wasn’t a big decision. Who openly treated it extremely casually. And who still did damage with that attitude.
I definitely agree with that, I just don’t personally view any of that as “a big deal” any more than it’s a big deal to make sure everyone in the car wants to go to disney world and is wearing a seatbelt.
THats a big deal too. That’s life or death. It’s mundane but it could be disastrous if it’s not done. Heck if one of the people in the car refuses to wear a seatbelt they could seriously harm or injure everyone else in the car. Just cuz it’s mundane doesn’t mean it’s not a big deal.
I understand that it gives you anxiety, and you feel as if I should consider it a bigger deal. I don’t. It doesn’t give me the same anxious feelings. It’s okay for us to feel differently about this.
Everything you’re saying is just that having sex can be COMPLICATED, not that it’s a big decision. It’s not always that complicated. And it’s not a big deal because of navigating boundaries and consent, because quite frankly, you need to be navigating boundaries and consent when it comes to everything, all the time, with everyone! Sex isn’t all that special in this regard!
And quite frankly, if people stopped putting sex on a pedestal, it would be a lot easier to get more people on board with understanding that boundaries and consent and power dynamics are universal concepts to human interaction, and we can have broader emotional intelligence across the board.
Complicated things can be big decisions when the outcomes are huge life changing events. Like if you’re really good at handling your shit then it doesn’t feel like a big deal but it’s absolutely a big deal. Like handling dangerous machinery. It’s complicated but if you’re really good at it you can effectively use it every day with no issues. But all you gotta do is screw up once and you might lose a limb or your life. It’s a big deal, it’s just become mundane.
Or say, driving a car?
Some basic training is needed before you start (sex ed, consent)
It can absolutely ruin lives if done irresponsibly.
The first time you get behind the wheel in a parking lot can be fun and cheerful, or it can be super stressful and it can even go very badly, especially if you’re in bad company.
but also, for many people, it’s a fairly mundane thing with low stakes that they do all the time.
like any metaphor, this one has limitations but i think it’s got merit
Honestly the car comparison is apt. I was actually thinking the other day about how scary it is that I drive every day. And much like sex my fear is less that someone will hit me and more that I’m afraid of hitting someone. I’d rather have a bad experience than be someone else’s bad experience.
The tricky part there is, some folks like being hit during sex, so that’s another layer of complication and something else we have to ask about and check in on.
And, unfortunately, in this moment when at last everybody’s train of thought has been derailed and they might actually listen, Joyce storms off instead of asking how the heck did we get here???
I think Joyce needs to walk off to gather her thoughts before talking to them at this point. Might be best to have I divide all one one talks also instead of being made to feel like she’s defending her anger to a group.
Like nearly everything in life it depends entirely on the individual. Some people put more weight in choosing their outfit in the morning over who to fuck and when.
Sex IS a big decision. In an ideal world*, losing (or retaining) one’s virginity is one of the first truly adult decision someone makes. Most importantly, if the choice includes a heterosexual partner, then the possibility of creating a child is there, no matter how many precautions you take. That is a very big deal.
*Unfortunately, in our world, many people have this choice involuntarily taken from them. This is one of the many reasons sexual abuse is so horrible. Deepest sympathies to those who have experienced this.
Hi, I know you didn’t mean anything by it so please take this correction with the kindness it is meant, but:
Many survivors of that kind of abuse don’t count it as the loss of their virginity, nor the loss of that first decision of with whom and when to engage in sex for the first time.
I would prefer if you didn’t talk about it in those terms, but obviously that’s just a request and not a demand.
My apologies. I was not sure how to express my thoughts with the proper sensitivity. I appreciate the clarification. Thank you for your polite response and your understanding.
This is overly personal, and, like, TW: sexual assault, but…
I remember crying on the phone to a crisis line about how I understood virginity was a social construct, and a fucked up one at that, so really I shouldn’t be so upset, I don’t know why this bothers me so much, and so on… which all crumpled in with the fact that it had actually been rape, but I was going hard in denial, full on told the crisis worker it was consensual while actively breaking down on my way home.
And then! Then, I kept that denial going for about three months, during which time I had sex with several people in a kinda “I can definitely retroactively consent my way out of this” attempt. And because of the joys of trauma, those experiences all blend and blur and I cannot put them in order or work out the full narrative of any of them. Now discussions of virginity are more likely to trigger me than discussions of rape, which is so, so frustrating.
I don’t count when I was raped as “my first time” (usually, sometimes I lose hold of this), but I also don’t know what else to put there because of the mess of memories. Recently I’ve been working with the idea that I’ll just pick one where the main bit I remember of it was positive, and like, that’ll be it. (To the extent that I need to define it or feel like I have to have an answer, which I don’t think is the case for everyone, but it’s something I want at this point.)
None of you needed to know all that, but these experiences definitely inform some of my thinking in the discussions around these topics. And maybe not always healthily, but I also think that may be the case for others, and of course no one needs to spill their guts in the comment section, so I guess to make a point in a comment I originally started with no goal of doing such: Remember that these things can be really sensitive subjects for some people! And if someone seems to be making a conversation difficult, they may have their own stuff going on, try to give as much grace as you can and whatnot.
You have my empathy and sympathy. I don’t count my technical first sexual experience either for similar reasons. I count the first one I consented to. I’ve done a lot of healing, but I still have a lot of work ahead.
Cw: child sexual assault and human trafficking
For me having sex is a big decision to make even now because my first sexual experience was at 3 years old and continued for the next 8 years as part of human trafficking pedophile ring. Then was followed by some other non-consensual experiences in my teen years. Thankfully at 32 I’ve worked through a lot of it and am able to have a healthier relationship with sex. I’ve even begun exploring more casual sexual relationships with friends with benefits, which has been incredibly healing for me after getting out of an 11 year relationship that had a lot of emotional abuse and pressure around sex. It will probably always be a big decision for me, but it’s getting easier to make the decision free of shame or fear.
@Yumi, @Fox, thank you for sharing your stories, personal as they are, i’m impressed and touched by how… beautifully?? you tell them, i’m not sure what word to use exactly, so i hope you know what i mean? yeah, i hope your experience helps ground some of these discussions a bit.
i absolutely agree with your point today and yesterday Yumi that there needs to be space to talk with nuance and gentleness about virginity and first times, and thank you for saying it. Yeah, we can’t hope to abolish virginity without also reckoning with and caring for the harm it does and has been wreaking. to say nothing of sexual trauma of course, but the fact that the construct of virginity will pile on to that and complicate it, is so crucial to this discussion i think.
Nova already pointed this out but it bears repeating: the idea that people can lose their virginity through rape only succeeds in bringing shame to rape survivors and since the entire concept of virginity is a social construct; we could actually create a society where we get rid of this idea.
That might be a lofty goal for society at large but I think we can at least achieve it in this comments section
*Brings tea.*
*Brings chocolate.*
*Brings tissues.*
*Brings lavender scented potpourri.*
*Brings the puppy dog and the puppy dog’s blanket.*
For ALL those dealing with this tough, tough, tough stuff.
I just wanted to let you know that we listen, and we care. I appreciate you all for co-constructing a comfortable, critical, accepting, accountable space. A space where we can agree to disagree civilly and with mutual respect, and forgive each other the errors that we sincerely work to correct.
Just thank you, folks, for being here.
This is tough. This is tough. I hear youse. We hear you all.
It’d be a better world if the concept of ‘virginity’ didn’t exist all, the same way that we don’t have a word for “not having ever driven a car” or “not having ever sung a song” or “not having ever played baseball”.
Y’know, incels have a weird fixation on adding “-cel” to the end of things, and any fixation or addiction gets “-holic” tacked on despite it making no sense (What the fuck is chocohol???). I don’t see any reason not to start adding “-gin” to things willy-nilly.
Never driven? Cargin. Never sang? Song-gin. No baseball/sports? Ballgin. Does it make sense? Does that matter?
I don’t think uncles are the ones doing that, considering incel is kind of a derogatory term. It’s short for “involuntarily celibate” and it’s meant to insult people (mostly men) who want to have sex but cannot. It’s basically like calling someone a virgin, but more pointedly like “this is a failing, not a choice”. In that way it became popular insult for most guys who are gross dumb assholes who can’t get laid because it’s ok to make fun of someone’s inability to have sex if it’s due to them being a shitty person. But under a baseline description I’d probably also be an incel. I don’t really think it’s a group that takes pride in being one since the “involuntary” implies they don’t wanna be celibate. I think it’d be contradictory.
They might not do it anymore, but years ago I got really irritated with this “incel” word that I didn’t understand and looked it up, and wound up on the r/braincel subreddit (r/incel got banned or something, idk), and they were absolutely doing that. I think it’s another one of those terms that people started out using for themselves, but when other people started making fun of their stupid rhetoric and revenge fantasies, they started pretending to be offended by the word, like TERFs did.
But yeah, they had a whole vocabulary. One I remember was “volcel”, as in “voluntarily celibate”, which they used to gatekeep people who were basically too attractive to fit in with them. I also saw “cuckcel”, which I’m still not sure what it meant and didn’t care to learn at the time, along with “gymcel”, which was just any incel who worked out to try and increase his appeal to women.
That was my experience with it, anyway. They didn’t seem proud of it, necessarily, but they definitely found the community useful for their pitiful little misogynist echo chamber. I kinda stopped looking when I got to a post some guy made that was this huge bullet list of things a woman must be willing to do before he’d date her, one of which was “Commit sati if I die first”. Not exactly the most stable individuals.
“I think it’s one of those terms people started out using for themselves, but when other people started making fun of their stupid rhetoric and revenge fantasies, that started pretending to be offended by the words, like TERFs did”
Other way around from what I recall. I think redits like /r incels were made to mock them but then those kinds of people started to flock their and unironically post their shitty opinions cuz they now have a convenient meeting place.
As far as I can tell, it started as self-applied term and didn’t go wide spread enough to be used externally as a slur until the community was solidified — and until several mass murderers had come out of it.
It was actually coined by a woman trying to run essentially an online support group for the involuntarily celibate, at least a decade before it went mainstream. In between it got taken over by almost entirely men and merged into the larger manosphere and picked up a lot of PUA and MRA terminology.
A lot of the -cel coinages absolutely did come out of that cesspool
The term started as a neutral one- invented by a young college student who wanted to have a productive discussion about her status as someone who would like to be doing the no-pants dance but lacked the appropriate partner. In that sense, I like it. By that definition, I too am an “incel”- I’m not ace, I lack a romantic partner, and hooking up with someone without a connection is not something that I find appealing in the slightest. And there’s a lot of room for discussion about how and why I’m in that situation, and I imagine that’s true for many others.
But, like too many things, the term was seized on by entitled men who chose to blame others instead of self-reflecting, and it sadly picked up more momentum until that way of looking at it became the default use of the word.
Self-Described Incels literally spit vitriol and hate at women for existing, discuss their wishes for government sanctioned rape/slavery of women, and now and then straight up mass murder groups of women.
Maybe learn what a group actually supports/is about before you go calling yourself one.
Also, PLENTY of people can’t have sex despite wanting it. That’s a shame, but it’s not the same as what most people mean when they say the word “incel” these days.
The idea that incels are being defended as this poor-me little babies that need to be treated nicely and protected while they actively demand rights be removed from women? FUCK no. Thanks bye.
I…really don’t think anyone here was advocating for any of that. Yotomoe was simply incorrect in his idea of what “incel” meant, and even admitted as much explicitly after being corrected.
You are correct though, they’re absolutely not a group that needs defended under any circumstances. In fact, they’re the exact sort of group that normal people need to be defended from. Anyone with an understanding of the history and meaning behind the term should at least agree with that much.
Whelp, I was speaking mostly from my own experience with the word and how it’s used but I’ll think twice about speaking openly about something I’m not an expert on and using my own experiences to inform my opinions, since I am often wrong.
You’re welcome, Farewell.
It’s only important if you give it meaning, i mean ideally it’d be nice to have a first time with someone you emotionally connect with/are intimate with but i can understand ‘wanting to get it over with’ or with someone you don’t care about and get some experience to see what you like/are comfortable with before having a more fulfilling experience with a long term partner
Not necessarily. Roz will not help Joyce work through her ingrained shame. She will push Joyce to just do it because sex is fun and there’s no need to feel shame and if you shake anyone, including yourself, for having sex you’re a bad person.
This will be harmful for Joyce, who many (myself included) assume is very likely to react similarly to Liz her first time. And Roz, unlike Dorothy, won’t be there to help Joyce work through that either. Dorothy may not be saying things perfectly, but I believe she does have Joyce’s best interest at heart rather than a political agenda.
Roz has not said a word about Joyce having or not having sex. She’s called Dorothy on her slut shaming attitudes which have come out before with Roz and so this sounds pretty similar and cheered for Joyce asserting, very firmly, she doesn’t want to talk about this. I see no reason to believe she’d push Joyce to have sex she’s not ready for.
Yeah, while roz is for ‘sexual freedom’ for women, it does seem like she’s unnecessarily butting in so she can…IDK, validate her own lifestyle/choices?
I’m sure someone smarter/better at analysis can say it better but it feels like Roz cares more about the fact that someone /can/ have sex more than working through the issues on why someone might have hangups
There are worse alternatives but hopefully it wouldn’t spiral into say, a ‘coping’ mechanism
Like Amber and “Walky being a version of your trauma you can fuck” tho totally diff situations
“it feels like Roz cares more about the fact that someone /can/ have sex more than working through the issues on why someone might have hangups
That’s unfair to Roz. Society punishes women/afab ppl for being in charge of their sexuality. Roz is an activist. Of course she made her own choices, but her “lifestyle” is not the point. Supporting women’s sexual agency is the point.
I think it’s a coin toss on whether Roz would help Joyce through it or not: on one hand Roz is extremely passionate about sex education and sex positivity, she approached Joyce with a therapist number after Joyce’s near-rape (of which she had the vaguest details about but still made an effort to reach out) and this was after Joyce openly slut-shamed Roz.
On the other hand Roz was the one who berated Joyce for being homophobic; she wasn’t entirely wrong but she approached it in a non-constructive way. Instead of trying to teach Joyce something positive, she scolded her.
So it could go either way. I lean towards Roz’s wanting more sex positivity side on winning
I feel like it’s important to note that Joyce said she needed to hear what Roz said in that class, and it did drive her to break up with Ethan. You might disagree with Joyce on that, but last we heard, she said ‘Sometimes I need someone to be mean.’
I don’t think what Dorothy is trying to warn Joyce about is sex; it’s sex with Joe that has her worried because she’s known him a very long time and doesn’t trust him to treat Joyce any better than other women he’s had sex with.
She seems to be keeping it general to avoid bringing up his name in front of everyone else.
Yes. Dorothy isn’t shaming Joyce for wanting sex. She’s warning Joyce about wanting sex with Joe. I’m not sure sex is actually on the table at this point, though. The two seem to want some sort of emotional ease as the focus of a relationship. They both are very troubled people. Well, for comic strip characters…
They both do, but Dorothy has no reason to believe Joe’s in it for anything but the sex. And neither he nor Joyce have given her any reason to think so.
Not that she’d likely believe anything Joe said, but she might listen to Joyce if she opened up about it. But she also hasn’t really given Joyce the opportunity or asked her about him.
Dororthy has good intentions, but she’s unintentionally using language that feeds into what Joyce was taught about sex being an extreme corrupting force that women have to watch for lest they be tainted forever
I think there’s something a bit more specific happening with Dorothy here. Dorothy, I think, despite her best intentions, absolutely has a bias toward conceiving of sexuality as irrational, as something that clouds one’s better judgement and causes them to act against their own interest – in short, a vice. Think about how Dorothy phrased her objections a few strips back: “Joe is a bad match, and you’re just horny.” Joyce’s sexual attraction is framed as the thing keeping her from realizing what Dorothy sees as obvious – that Joe is bad news. And because she’s defaulted to the narrative that Joyce’s horniness is making her act irrationally (because that’s an insecurity she has about herself,) she isn’t really considering that Joyce might not be acting irrationally at all, that she genuinely sees something in Joe other than raw physical attractiveness.
people that had hyper religious/conservative upbringings are taught that sex is the MOST IMPORTANT EVENT IN YOUR LIFE and that if you do it “wrong” YOU’LL BE DAMNED FOR ALL ETERNITY.
Speaking from personal experience, it does help to be told that sex is not that important, it’s definitely not soul-changing important
And here we see the squabble for territorial dominance has agitated the young Joyce! She lets out a cry of frustration before fleeing, likely back to her burrow for hot pockets and a nap. Remarkable. Such is the delicate balance of life out on the Indiana University plains.
Sex can be a big decision for some, or as casual as a handshake for others: an individual approach can be valid and healthy for one person but be completely wrong for someone else.
I wish Dorothy would say the above paragraph instead of the “maybe you’re not ready” approach that might be too close to church doctrine for Joyce’s comfort. But hey, Dorothy is not omniscient and she doesn’t have 24 hours between comics to percolate this information and come up with a logical response like we do
God Roz really pisses me off. That 2nd panel is really creasing me. It’s that thing people do, where instead of having a conversational argument they just throw out buzzwords and then an insult.
“Hey, I’m doing this because Bla bla bla bla”
“Oh yeah, well have you considered that you’re stupid and also you’re bad? OWNED”
It’s shitflinging with no attempt to actually converse ideas. You can still disagree but just saying “you slut shame and status quo, I know everything I’m roz. You’re running for president and I won’t vote for you haha” is making my blood boil. If you don’t have anything meaningful to contribute Fudge off, Roz.
That’s Roz’s entire shtick though. She thrives on causing a scene, outraging people, and forcing them to react in anger while she needles them and sprinkles in talking points.
Which now that I think about it sounds an awful lot like something a certain party does in real life…
To which I say – So what? I know you weren’t expressing an opinion either way, so no shade in your direction, but honestly I don’t see the issue in being someone that people you vehemently disagree with would mock.
The point is more that there’s a type that’s really easy to mock and that gets used to mock the entire movement. A type that’s cringe even to those who agree and that get amplified to paint everyone who agrees as cringe.
I don’t care what people who oppose civil liberties and equal rights think of as “cringe”. The people who are going to disingenuously take the actions of a single person to paint an entire movement aren’t the kind of people who were ever going to engage sincerely or learn anything anyway.
So fuck ’em.
I also don’t find Roz cringe, so I think maybe some broader understanding that what makes one person uncomfortable might not make others uncomfortable (also, that maybe that discomfort is coming from some internalized shit we should be sitting with and sorting through rather than silencing people who are more vehement about things than we are).
Don’t give a shit about them, but it works as propaganda. Painting an entire group as if they’re like one bad example is a very effective tactic at countering them.
It’s hard to avoid, since there are always going to be some and out of context anyone can look awful anyway. It’s still best not to hand over any more ammunition than necessary.
And I only sometimes find Roz cringe. Not sure I really agree that she’s a good example, but it is a thing and it’s a thing we should want to avoid.
Yeah, I don’t really care what nasty little thoughts are swimming around inside a bigot’s mind, not even their direct opinions about me, personally. What actually matters and affects other people is their actions, which frequently include intentional harm, harassment, and even murder, with anything non-freaks say being used as ammunition for that harm. While yes, they’re going to do their best to cause that harm no matter what, arguing with and scolding people who are on your own side doesn’t do anything to help anybody, no matter how right you actually are.
Corrections, vibe checks, even an appropriately timed and aimed verbal slapdown are all completely fine and good and help keep folks concentrated on what’s important, yes, that’s not up for debate really. It’s the shouting down others and arguing with people who don’t even disagree that makes it easier for the harmful freaks to do their freakish harm.
Roz does the latter, not the former, in almost every case. She talks over people, interjects in situations that don’t involve her, makes wild assumptions and accusations about people, and she even treats individuals as if they’re personally responsible for the actions of an entire group (“That was you”). All she cares about is spewing jargon at people because everyone else is Wrong Wrong Wrong and has Bad Thoughts in their heads that she seems to think she’s personally responsible for purging at all costs.
Her politics can be as solid as they want, but that does not matter to people who only see her overly intense behavior. If even your allies are treated like enemies, you risk alienating help when you end up needing it.
Hell, she’s the type that actual “SJWs” would mock. Just an unbearable scold who has to be More Right than everybody, especially when they mostly agree with her and extra-especially when nobody asked.
Roz is in the right for the conversation she thinks she’s butting into. Obnoxious–because it’s Roz, who is more three-dimensional than her roommate but not by a whole lot–but with her heart in the right place.
She’s not in the right for the conversation that is actually happening at all, mind. And Dorothy’s not gonna unpack the whole thing in public, so Roz will keep on with the assumption that this is the problem that fits inside her wheelhouse.
Yeah that’s shitty and I hate it. If you’re having the wrong argument at the wrong time then you’re wrong. Even if your position is technically correct, if you’re telling it to the wrong person or don’t have context you’re wrong and if you double down you’re obnoxious.
I think that while Dorothy doesn’t INTEND it that way, the ‘big decision you’ll regret and could be really bad even if its what you want’ bit she’s been doing this conversation feeds the anti-sex attitudes Joyce has been exposed to her whole life. I dunno if I’d choose the phrase ‘slut shaming’ for it as opposed to ‘sex shaming’ but given Dorothy’s been pretty slut shamey to Roz before (with her video and a few days ago in class with her only fans) I think Roz has a point that Dorothy has a pretty slut shaming side to her. One born of her own political insecurities maybe, but an existing one.
“I don’t say my exact views out loud so other lefty’s don’t ONE-UP me” (paraphrasing)
That kinda ‘liberal’…posturing does make it seem like she exaggerates/plays up that point and doesn’t rly care bout actual issues (wonder if robin had run on a liberal platform if roz would’ve been more conservative outta spite?)
“she knows leftist theory but does she do the dishes”
i wouldn’t be surprised if, while nothing wrong with sexual freedom and stuff, if guys just told her what she wanted to hear just to hook up because she was loudly public about her beliefs like “college frat bros” thinking liberal chicks are ‘easy’
It’s been a long time though. Only in the first few days of school, iirc.
I’d love to see more focus on Roz’s activism, rather than just have her incidental to the other’s issues.
same. it’s probably inadvertent of Willis to make her into a bit of antifeminist trope but it’s a bit uncomfortable. (and not saying she’s that unrealistic, just that she’s only activist character)
I’ll say this, one of the things I’ve noticed as I’ve gotten older is that…most people suck. Even when they’re being morally correct they still suck. They’ll still use toxic behaviors to further their stances and feel justified doing so because they’re in the right. I’ll be completely honest, even if I agree wholeheartedly with someone’s stance, the way you express that stance fucking matters. If you act like an asshole, gaslight people, talk down to people and refuse to back up your arguments with anything more than name calling and mudslinging, I’m going to call you a shitty person. You can be advocating for saving the planet and helping orphans and if you’re a dick about it I’ll still hate you as a person.
Panel 2 is why Roz absolutely deserves to get rebuked, too, in the final panel. She was using Joyce as a freebie to take shots at Dorothy, so yeah, she can also get fucked right now.
Actually yeah, why doesn’t she go get fucked if she cares so much? Caring about other people’s sex lives is cringe, she oughta focus on her own instead.
this is a tangent but I feel like Joyce might get a kick out of playing Cult of the Lamb. Or maybe she’d be triggered by it? (hopefully not)
I can say it’s a hoot to play it as an ex-catholic. The game might be too cutsey to actually delve into religious trauma, but maybe that’s exactly what she would need right now: a low-stakes, satirical approach that implies that organized religion is a farce, but doesn’t go deep into it
I like how in today’s and yesterdays strip, the in-front panels are Dorothy and Roz arguing supposedly on behalf of Joyce, with Joyce in the background and half out of frame. And the in-back panels center on Joyce, her non-reaction yesterday and her reaction today.
Glad Joyce is calling everyone out on their fixation on her personal business. She’s completely right Jennifer is so far the only one who had a normal reaction. For everyone else its this big thing that they just have to help Joyce with because the thought of her even taking a pill on her own is so unbelievable.
How? This has nothing to do with Dina and her fucking. Becky would be projecting some heavy insecurity to assume that. Which she kind of is, so maybe???
Unless Joyce decides she needs distance from all three of them in that case no pretext will be necessary. Seriously though Becky doesn’t seem to want Joyce to be okey with premarital sex because in her mind it’s too much of a change.
After Joyce has a day or so of space between her an the others I can see Becky approaching Joyce they have a conversation this at some point leads back this somehow or Joyce brings up her recent flirtation with Joe and how she’s worried some the others are going to judge her for even considering the idea of getting intament and right then and there Becky can decide to break the news to her that she and Dina had made love.
“Me and Dina had sex, I’m sorry I didn’t tell you I just thought you’d make fun of me or judge me, but I shouldn’t haft worry about that from you and you shouldn’t haft to worry about that from me when the time comes when you find the one you want to be with.”
I half expect it to build up to joyce wanting to /making the first move on Joe and then he can’t ‘perform’, that’d be quite the reaction from both of them
Tsk tsk tsk. If Joyce didn’t want people talking and judging every aspect of her personal life she shouldn’t have been the main character! I could be reading about Marcie’s cool skateboard adventures right now! I bet it’s like Rocket Power but at college! But noooo! We missing out cause Joyce has to be the focus of every character’s attention.
And I mean… Willis’s buffer keeps getting thicker… maybe eventually they’ll treat their boredom with BOARD DOM i’m sorry is marcie a dom? i like to think so, maybe because i like to imagine Malaya *thinking* they’re a dom, and Marcie going all snuggly soft butch on them makes them feel all confident about the power dynamic, but when they finally get down Marcie just instantly turns them into an absolute drooling pet and Malaya is like whoaaaah i never knew how bad i needed th—
wait how did i—
i was making a silly pun and then—
omg *shame-monkey emoji again*
oooh pretty please
*blushhhhh*
…ideally you’d need some ASL consultant (unless you know some ASL yourself?) but,,, maybe you can work around that. or treat it as a fun challenge and go look up filthy words in ASL lol
(i literally just searched “marcie” on the DOA tumblr to find some reference and whoknows do a bit of fanart of my own, and this was the first result hahahahahaha)
Man, if Joyce goes off the meds because of all this and would rather suffer, then I hope Dorothy and everybody else making it about sex realize how bad they fucked up
i’d imagine they’d lecture joyce/annoy her again if she’s complaining about pain from being off the meds, but you can still have sex without ‘the pill’ birth control if you have condoms, or maybe count ovulation days on top of that to be sure (while def not as safe im sure some ppl used that method back in the day)
Even good friends need to back the fuck off sometimes. Dorothy has said what she wanted to say, and that’s fine, and Roz had a good point and should have left it at that, but everyone wants the last word and needs to fucking drop it, rather than harp on it.
(Not that I think Roz is a good friend to Joyce. They don’t even like each other, Roz just has a hateboner for Dorothy and wants to shadowbox with her fantasy version of who Dorothy is. None of this shit in this strip was Roz operating in good faith.)
I can’t imagine giving any kinda ‘sexual advice’ to my friends unprompted/unless they bring it up first like, “i’m on birth control” “congrats” is as far as i’d get unless they continue
A) Roz should learn not to get in the middle of conversations she only hears part of.
B) Dorothy sucks at being subtle. She should just say, “I don’t think Joe is good for you. Trust me, I’ve known him too long.”
I still wonder if Dorothy and Joe have any history between each other that they both kept from Danny. This level of distrust comes from somewhere, though the do list could be enough.
To be fair, in game it’s been about 4 months since the do list went public, and before that Joe actively pretended to have used alcohol to “facilitate threesomes” – which, uh, out of context of seeing him value consent and autonomy explicitly to Danny I would’ve taken as a major date rape red flag (this panel https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/theplural/ for context). Like, without the added context Joyce has, I’d be of the same opinion as Dorothy not on the slut shame side but more on the, “I am concerned this man is actively unsafe” side. We know that Joe actually isn’t like that, but that’s with the benefit of seeing behind his horndog PUA persona. I don’t think Dorothy has the benefit of seeing behind it.
Joyce ain’t wrong. People can push you to your breaking point even when they’re trying to offer sound advice or look out for you. People need to respect others’ agency.
Yep, one more potentially reasonable conversation shut down by Roz jumping in with hasty judgments and slogans. What was it I said yesterday about bodies and the business of them?
Dang, and people think Amazi-Girl has a problem with escalating conflicts.
If Dorothy isn’t rude, Roz never has to step in. Roz may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back but Dorothy’s the one who heaped the first bales
I really don’t think Dorothy has been reasonable. She still hasn’t actually asked Joyce why she’s interested in Joe, she’s just stonewalling the both of them.
I said “potentially”. At some point Dot “could” have stopped circling around telling Joyce that Joe has a long history of treating women like objects for him to have sex on and has nothing to offer in human relationships, and then Joyce might tell her that’s not who he is anymore, and they could potentially have a meaningful exchange of information. The point being, once Roz interferes there’s no such possibility.
Willis generally portrays Dorothy positively – as the reasonable and “correct”, if socially clumsy character. But recently she has come across more negatively, and quite so here. I wonder where he is aiming for her character to go?
Yeah, this exchange seems a bit out of character (mainly because I had friends in college who went on birth control for medical reasons and I never connected it with their sex lives because condoms and STIs exist and birth control is best with relationships where everyone knows their exact STI status at any point… so I can’t imagine Dorothy bringing it up out of nowhere. But other commenters have theories so let’s see where it goes.)
I don’t think anyone in the comic is always correct. They’re all just people who are right about some things and wrong about others and sometimes are neither right or wrong but just disagree with each other. (Except maybe Mary; Mary’s pretty much always wrong, at least so far.)
It occurs to me…Joe has been the Most Non-judgmental about Joyce’s birth control, hasn’t he? The comic cut away from the potential remainder of that conversation, but…all he said was “on birth control?” The way I see it, he expressed mild surprise and then moved right on, didn’t pay much attention to it. For Joyce, who has always seen both birth control and Joe as being inherently sexual, I imagine his failure to jump on any possible pickup lines (and instead basically just going “huh, ok” and moving on) was incredibly reassuring.
So iirc, so far, Joe is the one person who’s gone “birth control, neato, thumbs-up-emoji” and not made Some Kinda Deal about it. I dunno, I just think that’s maybe interesting.
Yes. Joe actually cares about Joyce, and will only approach having sex with her if he’s sure she’s comfortable with it. The fact that she is pharmaceutically prepared right now has no bearing on his actions.
One interesting thing about Dorothy and Joyce’s current conflict regarding Joe, is that in certain ways it’s kinda a conflict of faith (like a parallel to Joyce’s recent conflict with Becky). But instead of being about faith in the religious sense, it’s about two people’s faith in a person. Similar to how Joyce (understandably) lost faith in her religion due to her past experiences with it, Dorothy has no faith in Joe (also understandably) due to her past experiences with/adjacent to Joe. And like how Becky is aware of the issues and flaws with the Christian experience she and Joyce were brought up in but also still finds solace and comfort in her faith, Joyce is also a person who is a aware of the flaws and past failings of Joe, but for Joyce he has also been a form of solace and comfort (and now attraction). Just a neat parallel, don’t know if it was intentional or not, but interesting all the same.
You’re quite right, this is extremely annoying behaviour from Dorothy plus you get added “isn’t Joyce such a child, she can’t even flip the bird properly” for good measure
I’m going to hazard a guess that it doesn’t really help that this is at least the second time Joyce has done this gag? First time was with Sarah, I don’t remember where exactly it is in the timeline.
Okay, one more thing. This whole concept of “slut shaming” is extra goddamn irritating because Joyce is not a “slut” in the first place. She’s just being shamed for existing, essentially. She’s taking some pills to regulate her fucking period and contemplating going out with one guy. Maybe I’m taking the phrase too literally, but she’s barely finished digesting her first placebo, for fuck’s sake. I swear, she’s being supernaturally patient with these clowns. Buncha noisy fuckin’ harlequins.
Props to Joyce for getting just her ring finger up enough to look like she’s flipping the bird. Is it just me that finds that physical more difficult than raising the middle finger?
Nope not just you: middle, index or pinkie – no problem, but ring finger requires a lot of planning, concentration and help from the thumb (at least for me)
A thought occurs. Now, I haven’t actually looked into this (yet), so I may be off base, but is it possible that the ring finger was chosen for that purpose specifically because it’s harder to move for a lot of people? Less mobility = less opportunities for catastrophic ring failure, right?
Could be for Joyce. I wish Dorothy didn’t feel the need to correct every little thing about Joyce like thst. It’s frustrating when you finally express yourself only for the person to focus on something insignificant like this as though trying to change the conversation.
It’s interesting how Becky don’t say a world during all this disaster. I kinda hope she and Joyce will have a private and sincere discussion soon about this matter. Joyce’s explosion in panel four is amazing. GO JOYCE!
Reminds me of a kid I knew when he was in fourth grade, who used to flip his index fingers at class mates when he got angry and didn’t get why everybody was laughing at him (which made him even angrier). On the plus side this fail kept him from getting in real trouble.
Gods, I always hated that shit. If you won’t explain to somebody why they’re being punished, then they’re not in trouble and you don’t have a reason to hold them hostage. Especially when it’s a kid.
Fun fact that’s how I learned the N-word. When I was a kid I was a fan of Winnie the Pooh, my favorite one being “Tigger” (some of you keen eyed audience members may already see where this is going.) So I was doing what kids do and just spouting rhyming words when some kid overheard me and told on me to the teachers. They told me I used a bad word but I didn’t even know which one I said was the bad one. And obviously they’re not gonna say which one was the bad one. And I certainly don’t envy the white teachers who have to explain to an innocent black child what word was the bad one and why.
It was probably years before I found out what it was.
That one’s kinda funny to me, just because I’ve heard a bunch of variations on it that always end with some white buffoon stammering and beating around the bush to avoid saying an extremely targeted slur at an innocent kid who hasn’t even realized they said it.
That’s also a perfect illustration of my point, I think. Nobody wants to be the administrator teaching a kid a slur, it’s just a bad look and the parents are probably gonna have Questions (chiefly “Why are you calling my kid the N-word?”), so if you can’t follow through on that, there’s no reason to start scolding in the first place.
I have a sorta similar anecdote, also involving A Certain Yellow Bear and his friends. My siblings and I, couldn’t have been older than maybe 6/7, we’re going through the names of each character and swapping out the first letters of their names. Well, we got to the obvious one and started giggling because we’d heard that word before and knew it was a cuss word (but didn’t understand the actual severity) and thought it was really funny to say rude things about Pooh Bear. Our parents overheard us laughing and came in to check out the fun, heard us repeatedly saying really awful shit, and then it was ass-whoopin’ time. To their credit, they did actually explain to us what we’d said and why it was wrong (even though they kept saying it themselves), which helped solidify our concept of fair punishment. Any time we fucked up like that, they were quick to explain why and how, instead of just taking our PlayStation away like nerds.
I wouldn’t call the teacher a buffoon. She was doing her best. The true villain of my story was the little brat who told on me. They were there, they knew the context. I wasn’t calling anyone a name or using it as a sentence enhancer. They knew I was just saying random rhyming words and they still decided to tattle on me. They’re the ones who put us in that situation and got off Scott free.
You know how kids will make up swears? Like, in the sense that they’re like, “I know I’m not allowed to say shit or fuck, so what if I just come up with a random word to say instead?” I got to deal with one of those once, when the word the kid had come up with as a “safe replacement” was…f*g.
He clearly didn’t know what it meant, because it was like he dropped his pencil case and everything spilled out, and he was like, “Oh, f*g.” So I was like, “Uh, hey, let’s talk for a minute?” And he mentioned that he had said it when his teacher was there before, and she hadn’t said anything. I suggested that maybe she hadn’t heard, but I think it was also possible that she was like, “Well, don’t know what to do with that.”
It’s harder when the kid can’t identify the word in question, though, and you also don’t want to say it… but also, you don’t want the kid going around like, “This is fine to say.”
I also usually don’t care about kids swearing in general, just slurs or if they’re swearing *at* someone. When I was a substitute, sometimes I’d be in a clas and kids would be talking to each other and swear, then suddenly remember that I was there and apologize, and it takes me a minute to figure out what they’re apologizing for.
Even worse was the forced, meaningless apologies. My elementary school loved that method of “conflict resolution”. “There, he mumbled ‘sorry’ in the least convincing way possible, so now you accept, shake hands, and go be friends!” Yeah, THAT doesn’t immediately result in more bullying.
One time I had one of the teachers seeing double because I flipped the script on them. “No, he’s not sorry. He’s only saying that because you’re making him!” They didn’t know what to do, so we both got sent to the principal’s office.
Those were so fucking irritating, because the exact same teachers would reject an actual, unprompted apology because “you’re only sorry you got in trouble”. They’re just teaching kids that all apologies are meaningless, and also that kids are literally incapable of understanding their own thoughts and emotions, while simultaneously being deliberately malicious and cognizant of all the harm they could potentially be doing. To this day, I can’t see or hear the phrase “you’re only sorry you got caught/in trouble” without at least rolling my eyes.
And yeah, if you call them on their blatant, lazy bullshit, they always go straight to escalation and send you to somebody higher up, who then assumes that because a person with authority sent you to them, you’re obviously misbehaving and in need of discipline. After all, why would Mrs. Kratchpelt send you to the office just because she’s too incompetent and bullheaded to “deal with you” right now?
ANY authority figure who treats someone below them as an automatic problem deserves to lose that authority then and there, on the spot, in the most embarassing way possible. Especially when it’s a kid who’s being treated that way. Yes, even the “troublemakers” deserve to be treated as human beings, because half the time they’re “acting out” from mistreatment/improper care in the first place.
You know what word I’ve grown to hate. “Excuse” because whenever I hear it used it’s just “a reason I don’t like.” What’s the difference between an explanation and an excuse? It varies. I’m sick of it. I try to explain why I did something or why something happened and I just hear “I don’t want an excuse”. FUCK YOU IM TRYING TO EXPLAIN MY PERSPECTIVE! Do you not wanna hear it? Fucking hate that. This isn’t really related but your post reminded me of that. It’s a classic “I don’t respect people below me” issue.
Oh, I hate “excuse” too. If you don’t recite the exact specific sequence of events that the person has already decided upon in their head, down to the smallest vocal inflection, you’re “making an excuse”. What you’re making an excuse for is seldom actually explained. On top of that, the sequence they invented for you typically assumes the absolute worst of you, your intentions, your intelligence, and anything else they can come up with to stay angry.
Hell, I’ve given direct, honest answers with absolutely no attempt to sugar-coat or weasel my way out of consequences, and still gotten accused of “making excuses”. It really does just translate to “I don’t respect you, you’re less than me, don’t even bother trying to speak.”
At the rate this comments section is going lately, we could probably compile a small dictionary of seemingly-innocuous, common words and phrases that are often used to deliberately shove other people into the dirt while framing any given scenario in a way that makes the target look as bad as possible. “Just”, “excuse”, “only sorry because”, “troublemaker”, hell even “bright” and “gifted”.
I remember as a kid flipping people off with my ring finger as a way to flick people off but be able to say “no, teacher. This is my ring finger. I have done nothing wrong”. I don’t think I was ever confronted about it but I doubt that argument would’ve even worked in hindsight.
I’m actually 100% on Joyce’s side here on this. They (I mean, it’s mostly Dorothy, right? Everyone else has made a few jokes but not actual Concerns) can’t go around saying birth control is no big deal and not about sex, and then immediately start worrying that she’s going to go have sex now that she’s on it.
As someone who has been the Mom Friend before, Dorothy, take a chill pill. You’re not Joyce’s parent, and the more you make yourself do things for her, the more you’re gonna just resent her when she makes choices you wouldn’t make.
the meme where the guy is having trouble deciding between two buttons but Dorothy’s head is photoshopped on and the buttons say “Help Joyce realize her own strength in her judgements” and “Shame Joyce over the subject of her affections because it’s Joe”
Isn’t it just fantastic when you’re more of a subject to debate and argue over and talk around, rather than an actual person? People really do love to treat actual, living human beings who are ostensibly their friends or loved ones as if they were a hypothetical fictional character.
This isn’t really a specific to this page comment, but I feel like the more independent Joyce has managed to get, the more Dorothy has started trying to mother her. Like, she helped Joyce with stuff before the time jump, but she wasn’t trying to organize Joyce’s time/activities (even though the drawing class was helpful, it was weird, and I think Joyce had only asked her to look up some options, not book her in and buy her a sketchbook), go into Joyce’s appointments (she at least had some re: her punching wrist), or as far as I recall, lecture her on personal decisions. Maybe on like “here’s why you can’t do that actually shitty thing,” but not at random between classes when they’re just walking around.
I definitely think the whole Yale situation is stressing Dorothy out, and she might be falling back on certain habits a little more strongly than is maybe helpful. I hope she can settle down long enough to realise she’s sorta been the tiniest bit of a tool to Joyce and they can talk this over more openly.
That makes sense to me- she could be bearing down either because she thinks “I stayed here for Joyce I HAVE to raise her now,” or “next term I’m REALLY going to Yale, so I have to fix Joyce before then.”
It could also also be her having still not really processing the trauma from the kidnapping scenario. For her, consistency, control and routine is synonymous with safety. I feel like her doubling down on trying to control her surroundings is a symptom of that and it has been showing up as inability to truly acknowledge the change and growth Joyce has been having. The Yale decision is another change looming over Dorothy when she really is seeking safety.
Yeah, I (and I think a lot of people) keep kind of forgetting that the kidnapping effected anyone other than Joyce, Becky, and Amber, even though the others were also kidnapped and in mortal danger.
I also forgot that Dorothy dealing with that badly/pretending she’s perfectly fine was a focus for a little while
Yep I would say the kidnapping had this effect on Sarah and Becky also to an extent. All three seem to treat taking care of Joyce more seriously as a group activity then before. Probably has to do with remembering old Joyce as naive but lightheared which they all want to go back to.
Yeah, that and the kidnapping. She’s not dealing nearly as well as she wants to be.
I’m hoping once everyone has a few hours to get into a better headspace and emotional state (i.e. Joyce isn’t angry anymore, Dorothy had time to reflect and not be defensive) they can be a good conversation.
Becky and Joyce finally yelling at each other about atheism definitely helped, but that felt like a healthier thing than this to me (at least at the point where they started yelling, they were actually being pretty open, whereas Dorothy hasn’t really said anything clear yet. If they can’t have an okay conversation from here, then maybe they need a second instance of yelling)
[not sure how long it takes for old pages’ comments to turn off, so before that happens: I want to be clear that it’s because Institutionalized is about one’s parents insisting something’s wrong with them (and that they’re on drugs, but that’s less relevant) when really they are just being quiet and trying to figure themselves out. That and because there’s a lot of yelling]
Oh Roz, with her constant good messaging marred entirely by how utterly BAD she is at expressing her stances. I want to like her, but my god she makes it hard.
As an aside, it must be so utterly exhausting to be Joyce and have about everything you do and say undermined by your friends’ ‘witticisms’.
Some of this would be ok in a private conversation. None of it works well as a teen shouting match. For both Dorothy and Roz, this is more about themselves than Joyce. She is more a pretext that a subject. Like an NPC ina game.
Just by making the birth control stuff about sex when she has period issues has been ableist of them? Plus they’re all perpetuating some level of misogyny towards Joyce. I’ve had that before where the most helpful person to talk to was literally a guy with an outsider’s perspective on sexism. When you experience it all the time you can get desensitized to it and not really realize how bad it is or when you’re perpetuating it I feel like.
Dorothy once again says something that sounds super creepy out of context.
Joyce really needs space right now. Some of the other comments talk about the kidnapping trauma. Like, remember Dorothy is the only one here who was in the situation when amber stabbed gashface repeatedly, because he was stalking Dorothy and planning to kill her. That’s probably relevant to why Dorothy’s been overprotective towards Joyce!
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go off Joyce
Preach.
I accidentally flagged your comment, my bad
I’m 100% behind Joyce here. However good her intentions may be, Dorothy is definitely over a line by this point. As for Roz, just ugh. She’s the loud, performative type that grates on my nerves, even if I happen to agree with what they’re saying.
Fuck yeah, Joyce! Fight back against infantilization!
another thing she has in common with dina…
Yeah, these people discussing Joyce’s sex life are totally out of line.
So anyway, are you Team Joe-yce or Team Joyothy?
Joeyce currently, but basically never Joyrothy. I just don’t see the ship. I see a lot of other queer ship options as enjoyable and possible, but that one’s never been it for me.
I’m in the same boat. Love Dina and Becky and thought the Mike and Ethan was underexplored before, y’know. But Joyce and Dorothy? They’ve never clicked like that. It’s too… sexless?
Personally I’m baffled by ships that run counter to the established sexuality of the characters involved. Like, sure sometimes two characters have great chemistry and that CAN lead to them discovering their sexuality is broader than they previously thought, but also sometimes two characters can just have fantastic chemistry and also incompatible sexualities, not everything is about sex and/or romance.
As a straight man I have had phenomenal chemistry with several straight men, a couple bi men, at least one gay man, at least two lesbian women, and at least one asexual woman. At no point in any of those totally platonic relationships did anybody seriously contemplate pushing things into romantic or sexual territory (or at least, not seriously enough to have told me about it). There were of course lots and lots of jokes about such relationship evolutions made in just about all of these examples, because I and my friends tend to have a rather campy and lewd sense of humor, but everyone was always clear and open about what the lines are and when we’re joking about them. Also, for the record I’ve also had similar chemistry with straight and bi women, but they weren’t mentioned since the reason those relationships remained platonic wasn’t due to incompatible sexualities and thus has nothing to do with elephants.
I get it historically. People made queer ships out of canonically straight characters because straight characters were all they had in media to work with. Sometimes they were even teased intentionally by the creators, often below the radar of the company owning the product.
Old habits live on, but it seems much weirder to me in a strip that does actually explore such representation.
People will also do weird crossover ships, like Cloud Strife with George Lopez. There’s no rules here.
Ugh, Cloud and George would be a horrible couple. If you’re going to ship Cloud with any comedian, it would be Steve Harvey
Steve Harvey’s name is too close to Steve Burton, Cloud’s English VA. It’s bordering on tangential selfcest, which is good, but not quite the vibe I was after.
Also I’m pretty sure Steve Harvey is a soulless predator who doesn’t believe it’s possible for humans to have basic morality if they’re not Christian. Then again, I guess if we’re going for crackships…
Having been a “straight” person who needed some time and distance from my former religion to safely realize I was gay, I think people are just reflecting real life! Especially when engaging with fiction, you can explore a lot of different options that don’t necessarily have to conflict each other. It’d be interesting if she was straight, and just as interesting if she discovered she was gay or bi!
There are a number of factors… sometimes non-canon ships, whether or not they go against the established sexuality of the characters, are based on “I think this would be more interesting/a more enjoyable story.” Sometimes, too, actual love interests don’t actually have good chemistry with the characters in question, or just aren’t that interesting. And yet the story insists on having them, because romance has been made overly important in a lot of media (imo).
This can leave it like, “Am I more interested in seeing this character make out with this bland, underdeveloped, who maybe we’ve been told they have a whole history with, but who came into the show three seasons in, or do I want to see them make out with this other character, who’s complex and with whom I’ve watched their relationship develop for years now?”
When straight is the societal default, a lot of characters are “established straight” by things that don’t actually fully establish that, and sometimes if it is established, it’s not unrealistic for it to change.
There’s also just people like what they like; it becomes a problem if they harass creators or other fans in the name of their ship (which has happened with a lot of media and ships, regardless of orientation; I got death threats on YouTube videos about ATLA characters when I was twelve, some people really need to chill).
Yeah this, all of your paragraphs. What you said about it making things more interesting dynamics or better matches, and re: straight being considered default.
Regarding last bit, there’s also shit like when Shelby Rabara (voice of Peridot) basically got ran off twitter by people harassing her about who Peridot should be shipped with.
I am aware that sometimes “established straight” characters are only established as such by default rather than anything actually stated in canon, and I try not to fall into that pitfall when considering a character’s sexuality, to varying degrees of success. My confusion comes in when a character has explicitly stated and demonstrated clear attraction to the opposite sex and NOT the same sex, it is a work that has a history of exploring LGBT stuff and has LGBT characters in the main cast, and yet people insist that a same sex ship with said character is OTP.
I developed a bit of a distaste for it when the CW Supergirl fandom canceled an actor for joking about how Kara/Lena “wasn’t gonna happen” in a season recap video, claiming it was homophobic. Up to that point Kara had been consistently shown to be attracted to men, had never demonstrated more than platonic or familial feelings for women, and there were openly gay and openly trans characters in the main cast, suggesting that if Kara were gonna figure out she was bi, it probably would have already been explored or at least hinted at, and if they did decide to do it without any foreshadowing or hinting, it probably would have played as forced unless they spent several seasons developing that subplot, and they didn’t really have several seasons left to do that.
I don’t take issue with people making fanworks featuring characters acting against their canon sexuality, as I am aware of the history and frankly don’t really care what people do with their fanworks, so long as they don’t try to impose their fanon onto the canon. I kinda view the Joyce/Dorothy shipping that goes on in the comments as that, especially when asking people what their preferred/predicted ship is, since this is the actual strip and not a fanwork. IMO, discussions regarding predictions of the direction the strip is going should be based only upon the established canon.
Given what’s established I could maybe see predicting that Joyce or Dorothy might discover their sexuality is broader than they previously thought, but I genuinely cannot fathom how people can take the tiny hints that may or may not even be hints about that and extrapolate it into “Joyce and Dorothy are gonna get together”. I’m not mad about it, mostly just confused how people can come to that conclusion, and despite all of the thoughtful answers that I very much appreciate, I don’t think I was told anything I didn’t already know.
I suppose some of the confusion might come from the fact that in my head there are two entirely distinct things being referenced in regard to “shipping”, one is predicting relationships that you think might become canon or that you want to become canon, which is what I’m talking about, and the other is fanworks depicting non-canon relationships, which really don’t need to be based on anything. I suppose if other people don’t make a distinction between these two things then that must be where the disconnect lies.
…Yeah, based on this comment, I don’t think this is something we’ll see eye t eye on. I felt uncomfortable reading this, honestly, so I probably won’t engage further if it comes up again with you in the future.
I don’t really have a problem with ones that are against canon sexuality (unless they’re insisting queer characters are/should be straight) or canon ships. That (particularly the latter) is the fun of shipping, that it can be something other than what the source media gives you
But sometimes they’re insisting it’s absolutely true and just about to actually happen in canon. Eventually? maybe, people learn things about themselves. But not anytime soon, and not definitely.
But for Dorothy/Joyce in particular I’ve never seen any romantic chemistry, personally. Joyce has acted a little like she had a crush in the past, but Dotty hasn’t, and I don’t think they’d make a good couple.
Yeah, I’d enjoy either one (or both) of them learning they’re queer, but I don’t ship them. I even think said realization could come from their relationship– I could see that especially for Joyce, but Dorothy too- but that wouldn’t have to mean their relationship develops into anything romantic.
I don’t really think that’s likely to happen in the comic, and I’m fine with that, but I do see the appeal.
I don’t think Dorothy has actually even commented on her own sexuality, though we know she likes men and probably doesn’t identify as any gay-umbrella since there have been times it would have made sense to mention it. She could already be bi. Just, not bi with Joyce.
(note, I know sexualities are consistent between canons, but I have no idea what’s confirmed outside of DOA).
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/kinsey/
Aware that estimate could change, but last we heard, places herself at a 0 on the Kinsey Scale.
For some reason I didn’t think it was a Dorothy line
I’ve been shipping Joe and Joyce since the rerun of Roomies where Willis pointed out they’ve always had a weird amount of chemistry and I’ve never been unable to see it. I’ve shipped them for years.
Team Joycelia Gray-Brown.
“JoJo”ship seems more likely and I don’t hate it, but I’ll always hold a small fool’s for the “really good friends” ship.
I’m on Team Two-Hands, personally.
Team Joyce x Successful Art Career to the point where she can have her pick of a dozen Joes and Dorothy’s
My personal fav ship with Joyce doesn’t work in DoA because of character ages being changed between Walkyverse and Dumbverse.
That aside, I’m team Joeyce both because I think they balance one another and because of the historical reference.
So Joyeagan then?
Definitely team Joece. He’s the only one who actually listens to her, instead of brushing off what she has to say while they shove her into the box they think she belongs in.
Team Joyothy, of course. Tired to see default couple in everywhere.
JJ or DJ?
Did everyone really miss the point of this post?
Or just ignore it?
No we got the joke.
It’s just that Joyce is a fictional character to us, no one is harmed by our shipping.
To Joyce’s friends, Joyce is a real person and should be treated as such.
I guess, but no one else even commented and just went right to talking about the shipping.
It was the question asked, even as a joke, so…yeah? That’s generally how people are going to respond; it sets up a much more direct route for engagement.
What moon said, but I was just in a hurry to assert that I don’t get Joyrothy (because I feel like a couple pages back people were acting like it was canon), and also “answer question” kind of overrided the “respond to main comment” in my brain
Joyce and Dorothy don’t even have a healthy friendship. Adding romance and physical stuff doesn’t fix a friendship problem, just makes a toxic relationship more toxic.
Joyce having sex with Dorothy would a MUCH bigger mistake than with Joe. Like, comic-breaking mistake, until it turned out to be a dream sequence or something. Like, I might honestly have to drop the strip if something so character-breaking happens without major repercussions. I’m having flashbacks to 9CL and Seth suddenly turning straight at even the possiblity.
You know that kind of comment sounds like an appeal to do it?
The false equivalence is just bonus!
I’m gonna toss Joe-rothy out there, just for the odds.
Y’know dorothy if you just said “I think Joe specifically is bad because of X behaviour I’ve observed for Y years” this could have gone much better
It almost feels weird how hesitant she has been to say that directly up until now. She’s really been mincing her words.
I’m guessing it’s so self-evident to her she doesn’t think it needs to be said.
Or she doesn’t think it’s her place to tell the others that Joyce likes Joe.
Probably part that, maybe partially an aversion to badmouthing someone publicly, even if they deserve it.
She had a chance talking to Joyce alone after lunch, but the conversation might just have moved too fast and she couldn’t get back to it before the others showed up.
She’s definitely not doing this well.
It would be the most respectful way to approach this, but I guess she’s assuming joyce is either too horny or too naive to really hear such a statement about joe.
Also it would end the storyline way too fast.
“Joe? But he’s a pure innocent saint. When he’s not helping orphaned children learn maths he’s assisting at the soup kitchen. Also he told me he has never once been horny before in his life, so we’re all fine there.”
If Joyce is too horny/naive to hear that, she’s too horny/naive for this approach to work either.
I am kind of getting the “If they just talk the plot will fall apart” vibes from this arc though.
She’s a born politician.
I feel like she was actually fairly clear about her objections. She’s being passive-aggressive now because the direct angle didn’t work.
Yep, She’s trying to get Joyce to do what she wants by bringing to mind her shame on sex because both Joe and Joyce have already made clear they aren’t dropping their ship to appease her. It’d really frustrating that Dorothy would stoop to this level to get her way.
The closest she’s come is saying “he’s bad news” and “he’s a bad match”. Nothing about why. Nothing that could lead Joyce to talking about why she thinks he’s changed.
It really is weird she’s putting on some kind of pretense here when she’s flat out told Joyce this is about her interest in Joe. My guess is for whatever reason she doesn’t want Roz and the others to know.
Yeah, that’s much more valid than this kind of mother hen deal.
Nothing joyce doesn’t already know
like Joyce: “Your (penis) has already been around everywhere”
Joe: “Leslie! Slut shaming!” so she knows what joes about and has been around for joe to offer support through the texting that dorothy doesn’t know about and all that
He literally left a conversation with Joyce to go get laid because he didn’t want to talk about feelings.
She knows Joe enough for a college relationship. Lol
yeah this is what I don’t get re:Dorothy’s treatment of Joyce or even some reader’s opinion of the situation – isn’t Joyce already perfectly aware of Joe’s usual behavior (which I don’t think is bad btw he doesn’t coerce anyone, he just likes casual sex OMG)? Idk I feel like I’ve even seen her express some of that conflict between her initial impression of him v her feelings for him now. She’s not nearly as ignorant as some ppl think.
Apparently she did: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/02-turning-saints-into-the-sea/calmyourself/
She just says “He’s bad news” and expresses she hates being around him. That could mean anything.
Yeah. Spelling out more about why he’s bad news would open up a space for Joyce to defend him and say why she thinks he’s not. Let Dorothy know about the changes he’s been through.
and that would be communication, which (as noted elsewhere) is poison to a lot of plots. :/
dorothy knows that joyve is completely aware of joe’s past behavior. joyve has been on the receiving end of joe’s past behavior. while i dont think it would hurt to be abundantly clear about her isses the idea that dorothy is being vague is ??? everyone knows what joe is like. everyone knows what joe’s problems are. joyce knows what dorothy thinks of joe.
Dorothy: I’m not in any way infantalizing, Joyce. I just think she can’t be trusted to make an objective decision about having sex with Joe because I think she’s unable to be trusted with her hormones and that sex with someone I don’t like is traumatizing.
Joyce: None of your business!
Dorothy: Of course it’s my business! I must make all of your decisions! I AM THE PREDESTINY OF JOYCE!
Weird typo for President.
I am the Presidenty of Joyce
She lives in Indiana. Vowing to control a woman’s body for her is sure to win her votes.
And yet, still somewhat appropriate for Dorothy’s mindset that she needs to make Joyce’s decisions for her
Entirely Valid Joyce.
Quit judging me!
*Immediately judges*
I actually agree with Joyce this time.
YES, Joyce! Call them on their shit! Give ’em the business!
👏👏👏💯
Show them that it is not, in fact, Business Time.
**hums Adventure Time theme song**
Business Time
Come on, fuck your friends
Oh she’s in the business. Business of kicking your ass. And let me tell you. Business is booming. She’s open for business. Business of giving you the business.
Up your butt.
I am glad Roz was included in this, since Roz was absolutely using Joyce as a pretense to start shit with Dorothy here, too.
Yup. Dorothy’s behavior here is bad, but well-intentioned. Roz’s is arguably more correct (don’t slut-shame, let women make their own decisions about sex), but her motives sour that for me, immensely–it’s not about empowering Joyce, it’s about making sure everyone in the Tri-County Area knows her agenda.
This person’s right for the wrong reasons, that person’s wrong for the right reasons, she said this, well she did that, it’s all just noise that needs to stop. In Joyce’s place, I’ve had much more severe outbursts, and the annoying part is that literally any negative reaction leads to the put-upon individual being painted as this suddenly aggressive freak who needs to stop causing problems by existing.
[groan of existential despair]
Been there.
Yeah, now that Joyce has expressed everyone needs to stop, they need to stop.
Joyce is right. Fuck these people.
And not in a fun Las Vegas way.
Stick up WHERE?
Eh, birth controls have a sub-plot anyway… in more cases than one.
…
*furiously swaps panels 2 and 3 just to revive the meme*
Personal/physical body types/blood tests and all that aside, wish birth control was something you could buy OTC as easily as say, tylenol.
Interesting to call it ‘control’ versus, say, ‘prevention’, because since there’s medicine to lessen the percentage, there’s also fertility pills that’d make you more likely to have kids as well (tho that’s arguably an even harder process to go through for couples struggling to conceive [if only ppl could switch problems, i feel sorry for the ppl trying for years while a young teen could accidentally be pregnant with twins after one try])
(don’t mind me just tangenting/thinking to myself lol)
I read a sci-fi story with an alien race who does things in a more sensible way. Young people lay eggs, and older couples adopt and raise them. I can’t stop thinking about how much more rational this approach is, even if it would be different for mammals.
Well, that’s basically what surrogacy is. It’s just more complicated and costly for humans because of how insanely intense pregnancy + childbirth is for our species
God, I wish human reproduction was more like that. Mostly in the “happens outside of one’s body” sense.
Well, while it’s not the full combined contraceptive with estrogen, having worked behind a pharmacy counter i can tell you i sold the mini pill as easily and often as Panadol. I’m not sure the exact differences between that and the prescription combined pill but I’m still glad it was so accessible
Oral contraceptives should absolutely be available OTC. Today’s pills typically contain much smaller doses of hormones than earlier pills, so they’re safe for the vast majority of women to use. It’s true that some women may have problems with basic pills, and may need some medical advice to find the best solution. That’s no reason to make every woman who wants to control her fertility jump through legal and medical hoops, though. It’s just too bad that the whole issue remains hopelessly bogged down in politics.
*plays some Michael Jackson on the P.A. speakers*
https://imgur.com/a/Ct5hDAC
I doodled this for no particular reason.
lmao joe doesn’t know what to do with himself
And where his can and can’t put his hands. This is unusual for him–its also intriguing.
😍 awe how splendid! The form and figure are fantastic!
Cute as the dickens, I adore this.
In the immortal words of Arin Hanson: “Nice!”
“Lemme eat your butt, Joe ♡”
she’s loving her new toy …
“Joyce’s State of Mind” seems awfully abelist.
Nah, it’s just the first draft of a famous Billy Joel song
“Some folks like to screw a lot
With someone that’s hot
Or just anyone
Grab a condom from the bowl
And go have some fun
But me I’m preachin’ compassion
And slowly takin’ your time
I’m mindful of
Joyce’s state of mind”
And totally not projecting at all.
I mean, a vulnerable ‘state of mind’ can apply to a lot of women, neurotypical or not
Tho I’d imagine it’d be more of her hormones than her mental state (not that her feelings/friendship/connection with joe is any less valid)
joyce speaking up for herself is fantastic to see
Yes it is. All of her friends hound her to pick up her her pills asap then act weirded out when she does something on her own. It was never about helping Joyce really it was always about congratulating themselves on taking care of the ‘child’ in the group. Hoping she continues to speak out and not cave to their “helping”.
Do you genuinely think that they don’t care about Joyce?
There’s a big difference between “not caring” and “not treating Joyce like a child just because she doesn’t have your breadth of experience”. I think they need to learn to trust Joyce, or she needs to find some friends who will.
Not caring isn’t the issue, it’s their lack of respect for Joyce as a person. Becky is a good example, she was complaining about being the one to who would have to hand feed Joyce pills, proceeded to rope Jennifer in on the basis that Joyce really needed help making it out like was for Joyce’s own good despite Joyce saying otherwise…then when it turns out Joyce actually did take a pill without her she has nothing positive to say just mutters about Joyce changing. For all the complaning and talk of helping Joyce their not really happy when she shows independence and that is a huge obstacle for Joyce in her journey to adulthood.
Not necessarily saying they don’t care, just saying they’re showing that care in totally inappropriate ways that seem mostly driven by their own agendas. It’s important to draw a line between “caring” and “infantilizing”. Joyce is an adult, at least legally (sorta-mostly). She’s at least trying to learn to act like one, and her friends need to respect that. And yeah, that sometimes means shutting up and letting friends make what you think is a bad decision, just because it’s ultimately their decision to make. Maybe they’re right and you’re wrong. Even if you are right, sometimes the best thing you can do is let a friend stumble. Just be there to help them up again.
I literally put my arms up in the air like I was signalling a touchdown.
i knew she was gonna blow up at roz. well, everybody i suppose . and becky staying quiet for now. makes me wonder if this’ll discourage her even more to share with joyce that she and dina finally got intimate
treating sex like a big decision is indeed reinforcing the cultural norm that virginity is important and tangible and/or something that can’t be regained once it is lost.
Dorothy is not thinking of that: she’s thinking that sex is a big decision for Joyce (and she’s not entirely wrong about that), so she’s failing to check her language for this sort of thing that does reinforce the church’s teachings about sexual purity, especially in regards to women.
In short: Dorothy is not wrong, but Roz is more right
Sex is a big decision though. As far as it’s been described to me it seems like it absolutely is. We don’t want it to be but it kinda always is.
Yeah I don’t really get the logic in downplaying what a big thing it can be. Even if you put aside the religious factor there’s a ton of emotional and physical intimacy involved. Saying sex isn’t a big decision is like downplaying the importance of your own body/mind, and pushing people to be irresponsible with an act that can have some pretty damn big ramifications if you’re not careful.
It’s no a binary though, there’s nuance between “sex is the biggest decision that will affect the rest of your life” and “sex is no big deal”; and I should emphasize that Joyce was never taught there’s anything in-between until (presumably) she attended Leslie’s class.
Not only was she never taught, she was actively told thinking or exploring other options was The Devil.
Wow. Sex isn’t a big decision for me, it wasn’t a big deal when I had it for the first time. That isn’t “downplaying the importance of my own body/mind” that is simply having a different opinion and experience in life than you.
I have to say that your comment here hits a lot of slut-shaming buttons all on its own. Other people not giving the same weight to something that you personally do doesn’t mean they’re downplaying it, being irresponsible, or not understanding their own importance.
No, but I suspect that if sex no big deal the first time, you’re probably doing it wrong. 😀
that’s rather myopic and judgmental, Clif
That’s a Roz tier argument.
I mean I mostly agree with Roz in this interaction so…thanks?
Yotomoe wasn’t even replying to you here.
You may suspect that, but you’d be incorrect.
Do you always pass judgement on the sex lives of strangers, or just when they don’t agree with your opinions about it?
Sex was a VERY big deal for me right up until the first time. And then it’s been no big deal and a lot of fun since then, once I got over the hangup.
Other people’s mileage can and will vary, but the important thing to note here is that you can’t predict how that will end up–I was brought up not quite as extreme as Joyce but was pretty extreme anyway (like, I took MYSELF out of sex ed and told my mom I didn’t want “the talk” because I figured if I knew less about it, there would be less TEMPTATION, etc.).
And then after my first time, which was a random hookup with a friend who was known to be promiscuous while I was in a bout of depression after giving up my childhood religion, I kinda just completely snapped out of it.
… yeah, there’s kinda a couple reasons I’m on team Joeyce.
I mean even putting the emotional stuff aside, it’s a big physical undertaking the first time. At least when you have the parts Joyce has and they’re faulty in some way (speaking from experience). Like, granted I’m not the best point if reference but given Joyce has probably never put so much as a tampon up there and she has a likely reproductive disorder, it’s gonna hurt. Especially since joe is a big dude. And when it hurts and you already have hangups about sex it’s the worst pain.
Like I’m definitely super projecting here and I know p/v sex isn’t the only type but sex is fuckin physically stressful (and in my ace opinion not worth the hype)
I would assume Joe would start someone like Joyce off with something that’s not PiV right away. Mouths and fingers go a long way
Not always and not for everyone. Joyce’s education since almost birth has been in absolutes, especially when it comes to sex. Right now she probably needs to hear Roz’s approach to it more than Dorothy’s.
(I do think sex is a big deal for Joyce, but just knowing the fact that virginity is a arbitrary construct and approaching sex at your own pace for your own sake instead of “it’s correct to wait until holy matrimony” can be so so freeing for an ex-churchy girl)
It’s always a big decision because you can’t do it haphazardly. You gotta be protected, both physically and emotionally, and make sure everyone having the sex is down to have the sex. And make sure everyone having the sex is far enough removed or hierarchically similar that you aren’t actually unintentionally taking advantage of someone.
And that’s assuming you can attract a partner to have the sex. It’s a big decision for everyone involved. And stresses me right the hell out.
It’s always a big decision *for you*.
It is not always a big decision for everyone.
Though, no matter how small a decision it is for you, you still need to keep those points in mind. That the proper protections are in place – for pregnancy and STDs (both of which remain huge deals, regardless of your state of mind). That the other people involved are enthusiastically consenting and on a similar wavelength about how big a deal it is. That there isn’t some power imbalance that messes with the other person’s consent.
No matter how casually you take it, it can still turn into a big deal.
Think of early Joe, for whom having sex wasn’t a big decision. Who openly treated it extremely casually. And who still did damage with that attitude.
I definitely agree with that, I just don’t personally view any of that as “a big deal” any more than it’s a big deal to make sure everyone in the car wants to go to disney world and is wearing a seatbelt.
THats a big deal too. That’s life or death. It’s mundane but it could be disastrous if it’s not done. Heck if one of the people in the car refuses to wear a seatbelt they could seriously harm or injure everyone else in the car. Just cuz it’s mundane doesn’t mean it’s not a big deal.
I understand that it gives you anxiety, and you feel as if I should consider it a bigger deal. I don’t. It doesn’t give me the same anxious feelings. It’s okay for us to feel differently about this.
Everything you’re saying is just that having sex can be COMPLICATED, not that it’s a big decision. It’s not always that complicated. And it’s not a big deal because of navigating boundaries and consent, because quite frankly, you need to be navigating boundaries and consent when it comes to everything, all the time, with everyone! Sex isn’t all that special in this regard!
And quite frankly, if people stopped putting sex on a pedestal, it would be a lot easier to get more people on board with understanding that boundaries and consent and power dynamics are universal concepts to human interaction, and we can have broader emotional intelligence across the board.
upvote for Joyfulldreams!
Complicated things can be big decisions when the outcomes are huge life changing events. Like if you’re really good at handling your shit then it doesn’t feel like a big deal but it’s absolutely a big deal. Like handling dangerous machinery. It’s complicated but if you’re really good at it you can effectively use it every day with no issues. But all you gotta do is screw up once and you might lose a limb or your life. It’s a big deal, it’s just become mundane.
Or say, driving a car?
Some basic training is needed before you start (sex ed, consent)
It can absolutely ruin lives if done irresponsibly.
The first time you get behind the wheel in a parking lot can be fun and cheerful, or it can be super stressful and it can even go very badly, especially if you’re in bad company.
but also, for many people, it’s a fairly mundane thing with low stakes that they do all the time.
like any metaphor, this one has limitations but i think it’s got merit
Honestly the car comparison is apt. I was actually thinking the other day about how scary it is that I drive every day. And much like sex my fear is less that someone will hit me and more that I’m afraid of hitting someone. I’d rather have a bad experience than be someone else’s bad experience.
The tricky part there is, some folks like being hit during sex, so that’s another layer of complication and something else we have to ask about and check in on.
Well I was speaking metaphorically but also yeah I don’t kinkshame. Who knows, I might be one of those people too.
Joyce doesn’t need to hear any more from anyone until they hear her. There’s been lots of talk but no communication.
And, unfortunately, in this moment when at last everybody’s train of thought has been derailed and they might actually listen, Joyce storms off instead of asking how the heck did we get here???
I think Joyce needs to walk off to gather her thoughts before talking to them at this point. Might be best to have I divide all one one talks also instead of being made to feel like she’s defending her anger to a group.
‘Best to have one on one talks’ it should say
Like nearly everything in life it depends entirely on the individual. Some people put more weight in choosing their outfit in the morning over who to fuck and when.
Sex IS a big decision. In an ideal world*, losing (or retaining) one’s virginity is one of the first truly adult decision someone makes. Most importantly, if the choice includes a heterosexual partner, then the possibility of creating a child is there, no matter how many precautions you take. That is a very big deal.
*Unfortunately, in our world, many people have this choice involuntarily taken from them. This is one of the many reasons sexual abuse is so horrible. Deepest sympathies to those who have experienced this.
Hi, I know you didn’t mean anything by it so please take this correction with the kindness it is meant, but:
Many survivors of that kind of abuse don’t count it as the loss of their virginity, nor the loss of that first decision of with whom and when to engage in sex for the first time.
I would prefer if you didn’t talk about it in those terms, but obviously that’s just a request and not a demand.
My apologies. I was not sure how to express my thoughts with the proper sensitivity. I appreciate the clarification. Thank you for your polite response and your understanding.
Apologies totally accepted. Thanks for hearing me out about it <3
thank you for involving yourself in this discussion and being so thoughtful and mindful Nova! i appreciate you =)
This is overly personal, and, like, TW: sexual assault, but…
I remember crying on the phone to a crisis line about how I understood virginity was a social construct, and a fucked up one at that, so really I shouldn’t be so upset, I don’t know why this bothers me so much, and so on… which all crumpled in with the fact that it had actually been rape, but I was going hard in denial, full on told the crisis worker it was consensual while actively breaking down on my way home.
And then! Then, I kept that denial going for about three months, during which time I had sex with several people in a kinda “I can definitely retroactively consent my way out of this” attempt. And because of the joys of trauma, those experiences all blend and blur and I cannot put them in order or work out the full narrative of any of them. Now discussions of virginity are more likely to trigger me than discussions of rape, which is so, so frustrating.
I don’t count when I was raped as “my first time” (usually, sometimes I lose hold of this), but I also don’t know what else to put there because of the mess of memories. Recently I’ve been working with the idea that I’ll just pick one where the main bit I remember of it was positive, and like, that’ll be it. (To the extent that I need to define it or feel like I have to have an answer, which I don’t think is the case for everyone, but it’s something I want at this point.)
None of you needed to know all that, but these experiences definitely inform some of my thinking in the discussions around these topics. And maybe not always healthily, but I also think that may be the case for others, and of course no one needs to spill their guts in the comment section, so I guess to make a point in a comment I originally started with no goal of doing such: Remember that these things can be really sensitive subjects for some people! And if someone seems to be making a conversation difficult, they may have their own stuff going on, try to give as much grace as you can and whatnot.
You have my empathy and sympathy. I don’t count my technical first sexual experience either for similar reasons. I count the first one I consented to. I’ve done a lot of healing, but I still have a lot of work ahead.
Cw: child sexual assault and human trafficking
For me having sex is a big decision to make even now because my first sexual experience was at 3 years old and continued for the next 8 years as part of human trafficking pedophile ring. Then was followed by some other non-consensual experiences in my teen years. Thankfully at 32 I’ve worked through a lot of it and am able to have a healthier relationship with sex. I’ve even begun exploring more casual sexual relationships with friends with benefits, which has been incredibly healing for me after getting out of an 11 year relationship that had a lot of emotional abuse and pressure around sex. It will probably always be a big decision for me, but it’s getting easier to make the decision free of shame or fear.
@Yumi, @Fox, thank you for sharing your stories, personal as they are, i’m impressed and touched by how… beautifully?? you tell them, i’m not sure what word to use exactly, so i hope you know what i mean? yeah, i hope your experience helps ground some of these discussions a bit.
i absolutely agree with your point today and yesterday Yumi that there needs to be space to talk with nuance and gentleness about virginity and first times, and thank you for saying it. Yeah, we can’t hope to abolish virginity without also reckoning with and caring for the harm it does and has been wreaking. to say nothing of sexual trauma of course, but the fact that the construct of virginity will pile on to that and complicate it, is so crucial to this discussion i think.
Nova already pointed this out but it bears repeating: the idea that people can lose their virginity through rape only succeeds in bringing shame to rape survivors and since the entire concept of virginity is a social construct; we could actually create a society where we get rid of this idea.
That might be a lofty goal for society at large but I think we can at least achieve it in this comments section
*Sits with youse.*
*Brings tea.*
*Brings chocolate.*
*Brings tissues.*
*Brings lavender scented potpourri.*
*Brings the puppy dog and the puppy dog’s blanket.*
For ALL those dealing with this tough, tough, tough stuff.
I just wanted to let you know that we listen, and we care. I appreciate you all for co-constructing a comfortable, critical, accepting, accountable space. A space where we can agree to disagree civilly and with mutual respect, and forgive each other the errors that we sincerely work to correct.
Just thank you, folks, for being here.
This is tough. This is tough. I hear youse. We hear you all.
#Metoo.
It’d be a better world if the concept of ‘virginity’ didn’t exist all, the same way that we don’t have a word for “not having ever driven a car” or “not having ever sung a song” or “not having ever played baseball”.
Y’know, incels have a weird fixation on adding “-cel” to the end of things, and any fixation or addiction gets “-holic” tacked on despite it making no sense (What the fuck is chocohol???). I don’t see any reason not to start adding “-gin” to things willy-nilly.
Never driven? Cargin. Never sang? Song-gin. No baseball/sports? Ballgin. Does it make sense? Does that matter?
I don’t think uncles are the ones doing that, considering incel is kind of a derogatory term. It’s short for “involuntarily celibate” and it’s meant to insult people (mostly men) who want to have sex but cannot. It’s basically like calling someone a virgin, but more pointedly like “this is a failing, not a choice”. In that way it became popular insult for most guys who are gross dumb assholes who can’t get laid because it’s ok to make fun of someone’s inability to have sex if it’s due to them being a shitty person. But under a baseline description I’d probably also be an incel. I don’t really think it’s a group that takes pride in being one since the “involuntary” implies they don’t wanna be celibate. I think it’d be contradictory.
They might not do it anymore, but years ago I got really irritated with this “incel” word that I didn’t understand and looked it up, and wound up on the r/braincel subreddit (r/incel got banned or something, idk), and they were absolutely doing that. I think it’s another one of those terms that people started out using for themselves, but when other people started making fun of their stupid rhetoric and revenge fantasies, they started pretending to be offended by the word, like TERFs did.
But yeah, they had a whole vocabulary. One I remember was “volcel”, as in “voluntarily celibate”, which they used to gatekeep people who were basically too attractive to fit in with them. I also saw “cuckcel”, which I’m still not sure what it meant and didn’t care to learn at the time, along with “gymcel”, which was just any incel who worked out to try and increase his appeal to women.
That was my experience with it, anyway. They didn’t seem proud of it, necessarily, but they definitely found the community useful for their pitiful little misogynist echo chamber. I kinda stopped looking when I got to a post some guy made that was this huge bullet list of things a woman must be willing to do before he’d date her, one of which was “Commit sati if I die first”. Not exactly the most stable individuals.
“I think it’s one of those terms people started out using for themselves, but when other people started making fun of their stupid rhetoric and revenge fantasies, that started pretending to be offended by the words, like TERFs did”
Other way around from what I recall. I think redits like /r incels were made to mock them but then those kinds of people started to flock their and unironically post their shitty opinions cuz they now have a convenient meeting place.
As far as I can tell, it started as self-applied term and didn’t go wide spread enough to be used externally as a slur until the community was solidified — and until several mass murderers had come out of it.
It was actually coined by a woman trying to run essentially an online support group for the involuntarily celibate, at least a decade before it went mainstream. In between it got taken over by almost entirely men and merged into the larger manosphere and picked up a lot of PUA and MRA terminology.
A lot of the -cel coinages absolutely did come out of that cesspool
The term started as a neutral one- invented by a young college student who wanted to have a productive discussion about her status as someone who would like to be doing the no-pants dance but lacked the appropriate partner. In that sense, I like it. By that definition, I too am an “incel”- I’m not ace, I lack a romantic partner, and hooking up with someone without a connection is not something that I find appealing in the slightest. And there’s a lot of room for discussion about how and why I’m in that situation, and I imagine that’s true for many others.
But, like too many things, the term was seized on by entitled men who chose to blame others instead of self-reflecting, and it sadly picked up more momentum until that way of looking at it became the default use of the word.
Well interesting. Guess I was wrong. Learn something new at least. Something that honestly just makes me feel shittier tbh.
Self-Described Incels literally spit vitriol and hate at women for existing, discuss their wishes for government sanctioned rape/slavery of women, and now and then straight up mass murder groups of women.
Maybe learn what a group actually supports/is about before you go calling yourself one.
Also, PLENTY of people can’t have sex despite wanting it. That’s a shame, but it’s not the same as what most people mean when they say the word “incel” these days.
The idea that incels are being defended as this poor-me little babies that need to be treated nicely and protected while they actively demand rights be removed from women? FUCK no. Thanks bye.
I…really don’t think anyone here was advocating for any of that. Yotomoe was simply incorrect in his idea of what “incel” meant, and even admitted as much explicitly after being corrected.
You are correct though, they’re absolutely not a group that needs defended under any circumstances. In fact, they’re the exact sort of group that normal people need to be defended from. Anyone with an understanding of the history and meaning behind the term should at least agree with that much.
Whelp, I was speaking mostly from my own experience with the word and how it’s used but I’ll think twice about speaking openly about something I’m not an expert on and using my own experiences to inform my opinions, since I am often wrong.
You’re welcome, Farewell.
This. SO MUCH this.
It’s only important if you give it meaning, i mean ideally it’d be nice to have a first time with someone you emotionally connect with/are intimate with but i can understand ‘wanting to get it over with’ or with someone you don’t care about and get some experience to see what you like/are comfortable with before having a more fulfilling experience with a long term partner
“Dorothy is not wrong, but Roz is more right”
Not necessarily. Roz will not help Joyce work through her ingrained shame. She will push Joyce to just do it because sex is fun and there’s no need to feel shame and if you shake anyone, including yourself, for having sex you’re a bad person.
This will be harmful for Joyce, who many (myself included) assume is very likely to react similarly to Liz her first time. And Roz, unlike Dorothy, won’t be there to help Joyce work through that either. Dorothy may not be saying things perfectly, but I believe she does have Joyce’s best interest at heart rather than a political agenda.
Roz has not said a word about Joyce having or not having sex. She’s called Dorothy on her slut shaming attitudes which have come out before with Roz and so this sounds pretty similar and cheered for Joyce asserting, very firmly, she doesn’t want to talk about this. I see no reason to believe she’d push Joyce to have sex she’s not ready for.
Even when she, unprompted, told Joyce about birth control’s effectiveness etc, she said ‘if you choose to have sex’
Yeah, while roz is for ‘sexual freedom’ for women, it does seem like she’s unnecessarily butting in so she can…IDK, validate her own lifestyle/choices?
I’m sure someone smarter/better at analysis can say it better but it feels like Roz cares more about the fact that someone /can/ have sex more than working through the issues on why someone might have hangups
There are worse alternatives but hopefully it wouldn’t spiral into say, a ‘coping’ mechanism
Like Amber and “Walky being a version of your trauma you can fuck” tho totally diff situations
“it feels like Roz cares more about the fact that someone /can/ have sex more than working through the issues on why someone might have hangups
That’s unfair to Roz. Society punishes women/afab ppl for being in charge of their sexuality. Roz is an activist. Of course she made her own choices, but her “lifestyle” is not the point. Supporting women’s sexual agency is the point.
I think it’s a coin toss on whether Roz would help Joyce through it or not: on one hand Roz is extremely passionate about sex education and sex positivity, she approached Joyce with a therapist number after Joyce’s near-rape (of which she had the vaguest details about but still made an effort to reach out) and this was after Joyce openly slut-shamed Roz.
On the other hand Roz was the one who berated Joyce for being homophobic; she wasn’t entirely wrong but she approached it in a non-constructive way. Instead of trying to teach Joyce something positive, she scolded her.
So it could go either way. I lean towards Roz’s wanting more sex positivity side on winning
I feel like it’s important to note that Joyce said she needed to hear what Roz said in that class, and it did drive her to break up with Ethan. You might disagree with Joyce on that, but last we heard, she said ‘Sometimes I need someone to be mean.’
I don’t think what Dorothy is trying to warn Joyce about is sex; it’s sex with Joe that has her worried because she’s known him a very long time and doesn’t trust him to treat Joyce any better than other women he’s had sex with.
She seems to be keeping it general to avoid bringing up his name in front of everyone else.
Yes. Dorothy isn’t shaming Joyce for wanting sex. She’s warning Joyce about wanting sex with Joe. I’m not sure sex is actually on the table at this point, though. The two seem to want some sort of emotional ease as the focus of a relationship. They both are very troubled people. Well, for comic strip characters…
They both do, but Dorothy has no reason to believe Joe’s in it for anything but the sex. And neither he nor Joyce have given her any reason to think so.
Not that she’d likely believe anything Joe said, but she might listen to Joyce if she opened up about it. But she also hasn’t really given Joyce the opportunity or asked her about him.
Dororthy has good intentions, but she’s unintentionally using language that feeds into what Joyce was taught about sex being an extreme corrupting force that women have to watch for lest they be tainted forever
I think there’s something a bit more specific happening with Dorothy here. Dorothy, I think, despite her best intentions, absolutely has a bias toward conceiving of sexuality as irrational, as something that clouds one’s better judgement and causes them to act against their own interest – in short, a vice. Think about how Dorothy phrased her objections a few strips back: “Joe is a bad match, and you’re just horny.” Joyce’s sexual attraction is framed as the thing keeping her from realizing what Dorothy sees as obvious – that Joe is bad news. And because she’s defaulted to the narrative that Joyce’s horniness is making her act irrationally (because that’s an insecurity she has about herself,) she isn’t really considering that Joyce might not be acting irrationally at all, that she genuinely sees something in Joe other than raw physical attractiveness.
agreed!
Which, to be fair, is a thing that happens. People who are crushing on someone are often oblivious to very obvious red flags.
Oh well said!
I think sex is exactly as important as what it means to you. You shouldn’t downplay it or play it up. It means what it does to whoever is having it.
people that had hyper religious/conservative upbringings are taught that sex is the MOST IMPORTANT EVENT IN YOUR LIFE and that if you do it “wrong” YOU’LL BE DAMNED FOR ALL ETERNITY.
Speaking from personal experience, it does help to be told that sex is not that important, it’s definitely not soul-changing important
Just call me Marie Kondo because I love mess
I hope Joyce runs into Ethan and Booster, we need a good angst singularity
And here we see the squabble for territorial dominance has agitated the young Joyce! She lets out a cry of frustration before fleeing, likely back to her burrow for hot pockets and a nap. Remarkable. Such is the delicate balance of life out on the Indiana University plains.
Yeah they sure did drop the ball on this one.
Yay Joyce! Tell them where to go and what to do there!
Joyce needs to do one of those city-shattering anime screams to get rid of everyone.
Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT_zq3vQt4U
Sex can be a big decision for some, or as casual as a handshake for others: an individual approach can be valid and healthy for one person but be completely wrong for someone else.
I wish Dorothy would say the above paragraph instead of the “maybe you’re not ready” approach that might be too close to church doctrine for Joyce’s comfort. But hey, Dorothy is not omniscient and she doesn’t have 24 hours between comics to percolate this information and come up with a logical response like we do
“Quite a grip you’ve got there” could work both ways ;P
God Roz really pisses me off. That 2nd panel is really creasing me. It’s that thing people do, where instead of having a conversational argument they just throw out buzzwords and then an insult.
“Hey, I’m doing this because Bla bla bla bla”
“Oh yeah, well have you considered that you’re stupid and also you’re bad? OWNED”
It’s shitflinging with no attempt to actually converse ideas. You can still disagree but just saying “you slut shame and status quo, I know everything I’m roz. You’re running for president and I won’t vote for you haha” is making my blood boil. If you don’t have anything meaningful to contribute Fudge off, Roz.
That’s Roz’s entire shtick though. She thrives on causing a scene, outraging people, and forcing them to react in anger while she needles them and sprinkles in talking points.
Which now that I think about it sounds an awful lot like something a certain party does in real life…
Every political party ever?
Yeah…Mario Party. I can’t believe the things Luigi has said.
she seems like the type of leftist ‘anti sjws’ would mock
To which I say – So what? I know you weren’t expressing an opinion either way, so no shade in your direction, but honestly I don’t see the issue in being someone that people you vehemently disagree with would mock.
The point is more that there’s a type that’s really easy to mock and that gets used to mock the entire movement. A type that’s cringe even to those who agree and that get amplified to paint everyone who agrees as cringe.
And?
I don’t care what people who oppose civil liberties and equal rights think of as “cringe”. The people who are going to disingenuously take the actions of a single person to paint an entire movement aren’t the kind of people who were ever going to engage sincerely or learn anything anyway.
So fuck ’em.
I also don’t find Roz cringe, so I think maybe some broader understanding that what makes one person uncomfortable might not make others uncomfortable (also, that maybe that discomfort is coming from some internalized shit we should be sitting with and sorting through rather than silencing people who are more vehement about things than we are).
Don’t give a shit about them, but it works as propaganda. Painting an entire group as if they’re like one bad example is a very effective tactic at countering them.
It’s hard to avoid, since there are always going to be some and out of context anyone can look awful anyway. It’s still best not to hand over any more ammunition than necessary.
And I only sometimes find Roz cringe. Not sure I really agree that she’s a good example, but it is a thing and it’s a thing we should want to avoid.
Yeah, I don’t really care what nasty little thoughts are swimming around inside a bigot’s mind, not even their direct opinions about me, personally. What actually matters and affects other people is their actions, which frequently include intentional harm, harassment, and even murder, with anything non-freaks say being used as ammunition for that harm. While yes, they’re going to do their best to cause that harm no matter what, arguing with and scolding people who are on your own side doesn’t do anything to help anybody, no matter how right you actually are.
Corrections, vibe checks, even an appropriately timed and aimed verbal slapdown are all completely fine and good and help keep folks concentrated on what’s important, yes, that’s not up for debate really. It’s the shouting down others and arguing with people who don’t even disagree that makes it easier for the harmful freaks to do their freakish harm.
Roz does the latter, not the former, in almost every case. She talks over people, interjects in situations that don’t involve her, makes wild assumptions and accusations about people, and she even treats individuals as if they’re personally responsible for the actions of an entire group (“That was you”). All she cares about is spewing jargon at people because everyone else is Wrong Wrong Wrong and has Bad Thoughts in their heads that she seems to think she’s personally responsible for purging at all costs.
Her politics can be as solid as they want, but that does not matter to people who only see her overly intense behavior. If even your allies are treated like enemies, you risk alienating help when you end up needing it.
TL;DR – Sometimes shutting the fuck up minding your own business can be a virtue.
Hell, she’s the type that actual “SJWs” would mock. Just an unbearable scold who has to be More Right than everybody, especially when they mostly agree with her and extra-especially when nobody asked.
Roz is in the right for the conversation she thinks she’s butting into. Obnoxious–because it’s Roz, who is more three-dimensional than her roommate but not by a whole lot–but with her heart in the right place.
She’s not in the right for the conversation that is actually happening at all, mind. And Dorothy’s not gonna unpack the whole thing in public, so Roz will keep on with the assumption that this is the problem that fits inside her wheelhouse.
Yeah that’s shitty and I hate it. If you’re having the wrong argument at the wrong time then you’re wrong. Even if your position is technically correct, if you’re telling it to the wrong person or don’t have context you’re wrong and if you double down you’re obnoxious.
I think that while Dorothy doesn’t INTEND it that way, the ‘big decision you’ll regret and could be really bad even if its what you want’ bit she’s been doing this conversation feeds the anti-sex attitudes Joyce has been exposed to her whole life. I dunno if I’d choose the phrase ‘slut shaming’ for it as opposed to ‘sex shaming’ but given Dorothy’s been pretty slut shamey to Roz before (with her video and a few days ago in class with her only fans) I think Roz has a point that Dorothy has a pretty slut shaming side to her. One born of her own political insecurities maybe, but an existing one.
“How lefty are ya?”
“I don’t say my exact views out loud so other lefty’s don’t ONE-UP me” (paraphrasing)
That kinda ‘liberal’…posturing does make it seem like she exaggerates/plays up that point and doesn’t rly care bout actual issues (wonder if robin had run on a liberal platform if roz would’ve been more conservative outta spite?)
“she knows leftist theory but does she do the dishes”
i wouldn’t be surprised if, while nothing wrong with sexual freedom and stuff, if guys just told her what she wanted to hear just to hook up because she was loudly public about her beliefs like “college frat bros” thinking liberal chicks are ‘easy’
We’ve seen Roz doing the day to day grunt work handing out condoms for planned parenthood. Yes, Roz does the dishes.
It’s been a long time though. Only in the first few days of school, iirc.
I’d love to see more focus on Roz’s activism, rather than just have her incidental to the other’s issues.
same. it’s probably inadvertent of Willis to make her into a bit of antifeminist trope but it’s a bit uncomfortable. (and not saying she’s that unrealistic, just that she’s only activist character)
I’ll say this, one of the things I’ve noticed as I’ve gotten older is that…most people suck. Even when they’re being morally correct they still suck. They’ll still use toxic behaviors to further their stances and feel justified doing so because they’re in the right. I’ll be completely honest, even if I agree wholeheartedly with someone’s stance, the way you express that stance fucking matters. If you act like an asshole, gaslight people, talk down to people and refuse to back up your arguments with anything more than name calling and mudslinging, I’m going to call you a shitty person. You can be advocating for saving the planet and helping orphans and if you’re a dick about it I’ll still hate you as a person.
Panel 2 is why Roz absolutely deserves to get rebuked, too, in the final panel. She was using Joyce as a freebie to take shots at Dorothy, so yeah, she can also get fucked right now.
Actually yeah, why doesn’t she go get fucked if she cares so much? Caring about other people’s sex lives is cringe, she oughta focus on her own instead.
Huh. Kinda forgot about that.
Hfil yeah Joyce!
this is a tangent but I feel like Joyce might get a kick out of playing Cult of the Lamb. Or maybe she’d be triggered by it? (hopefully not)
I can say it’s a hoot to play it as an ex-catholic. The game might be too cutsey to actually delve into religious trauma, but maybe that’s exactly what she would need right now: a low-stakes, satirical approach that implies that organized religion is a farce, but doesn’t go deep into it
Man, I’ve been meaning to pick that game up soon. It looks really good and a funny theme (also the JT Music rap about it is fire)
Ten hours into Cult of the Lamb, I thought to myself: who knew that most of being in a cult is feeding people and cleaning up after them?
Oh yeah. Me. I knew that.
I like how in today’s and yesterdays strip, the in-front panels are Dorothy and Roz arguing supposedly on behalf of Joyce, with Joyce in the background and half out of frame. And the in-back panels center on Joyce, her non-reaction yesterday and her reaction today.
I also don’t think it’s incidental that this particular snap happened with the Becky/Dorothy/Sarah triad around
This has been a long time coming and I’m glad Joyce said it. Hopefully they can get some clarity after everyone cools off.
I’m the only one who read Roz last line in banes voice?
“The city is yours! Take what you please!”
Well now you’re not lmao
Glad Joyce is calling everyone out on their fixation on her personal business. She’s completely right Jennifer is so far the only one who had a normal reaction. For everyone else its this big thing that they just have to help Joyce with because the thought of her even taking a pill on her own is so unbelievable.
This blow up, while justified on Joyce’s part, probably only solidified in Becky’s mind that Joyce can’t know about her and Dina having sex
How? This has nothing to do with Dina and her fucking. Becky would be projecting some heavy insecurity to assume that. Which she kind of is, so maybe???
Leading to hilarious sit-com hijinks as Becky needs ever-more complicated pretexts to keep the secret?
Unless Joyce decides she needs distance from all three of them in that case no pretext will be necessary. Seriously though Becky doesn’t seem to want Joyce to be okey with premarital sex because in her mind it’s too much of a change.
I see it playing out the opposite way actually.
After Joyce has a day or so of space between her an the others I can see Becky approaching Joyce they have a conversation this at some point leads back this somehow or Joyce brings up her recent flirtation with Joe and how she’s worried some the others are going to judge her for even considering the idea of getting intament and right then and there Becky can decide to break the news to her that she and Dina had made love.
“Me and Dina had sex, I’m sorry I didn’t tell you I just thought you’d make fun of me or judge me, but I shouldn’t haft worry about that from you and you shouldn’t haft to worry about that from me when the time comes when you find the one you want to be with.”
One would presume that, if anything, it would be Dorothy’s stance that would Becky to think having sex should be kept a secret.
It may not be significant but I wanted Joe to be brought up as the object of Joyce’s eye, given that Roz slept with him in the previous semester.
Well, technically, so did Joyce after the joint birthday party at Robin’s apartment.
There’s so much I don’t remember from this comic, I swear to gods.
They didn’t have sex. They just woke up on the floor together and I think Joyce was laying on his chest.
I half expect it to build up to joyce wanting to /making the first move on Joe and then he can’t ‘perform’, that’d be quite the reaction from both of them
Oh, I’d like that turn of events to happen.
I kinda wanna draw that.
heck yeah joyce tell ’em. stop treating her like a child!!!
i love her, you go girl
You go girl, take the power!
Tsk tsk tsk. If Joyce didn’t want people talking and judging every aspect of her personal life she shouldn’t have been the main character! I could be reading about Marcie’s cool skateboard adventures right now! I bet it’s like Rocket Power but at college! But noooo! We missing out cause Joyce has to be the focus of every character’s attention.
i think marcie’s paid her dues being injured to the point that she has a permanent disability(?)
i’m sure we’ll see some of the others here and there but i assume the next arc will focus on someone else
(like that one meme lol, “Mom says it’s my turn to have the character arc/story line”)
If Mike was the main character we could be having Doom-like adventures in hell right now
oooh now i want a Marcie-focused spinoff *0*
And I mean… Willis’s buffer keeps getting thicker… maybe eventually they’ll treat their boredom with BOARD DOM i’m sorry is marcie a dom? i like to think so, maybe because i like to imagine Malaya *thinking* they’re a dom, and Marcie going all snuggly soft butch on them makes them feel all confident about the power dynamic, but when they finally get down Marcie just instantly turns them into an absolute drooling pet and Malaya is like whoaaaah i never knew how bad i needed th—
wait how did i—
i was making a silly pun and then—
omg *shame-monkey emoji again*
Now I want the mike spin-off computer game
That«’s just the Untitled Goose Game.
ROFL
I kinda wanna draw this too
oooh pretty please
*blushhhhh*
…ideally you’d need some ASL consultant (unless you know some ASL yourself?) but,,, maybe you can work around that. or treat it as a fun challenge and go look up filthy words in ASL lol
….or just find this book
(i literally just searched “marcie” on the DOA tumblr to find some reference and whoknows do a bit of fanart of my own, and this was the first result hahahahahaha)
Man, if Joyce goes off the meds because of all this and would rather suffer, then I hope Dorothy and everybody else making it about sex realize how bad they fucked up
If she did that, she’d be validating that she can’t handle her own shit, unfair as that’d be, so I’d really hope she doesn’t do that.
i’d imagine they’d lecture joyce/annoy her again if she’s complaining about pain from being off the meds, but you can still have sex without ‘the pill’ birth control if you have condoms, or maybe count ovulation days on top of that to be sure (while def not as safe im sure some ppl used that method back in the day)
Even good friends need to back the fuck off sometimes. Dorothy has said what she wanted to say, and that’s fine, and Roz had a good point and should have left it at that, but everyone wants the last word and needs to fucking drop it, rather than harp on it.
(Not that I think Roz is a good friend to Joyce. They don’t even like each other, Roz just has a hateboner for Dorothy and wants to shadowbox with her fantasy version of who Dorothy is. None of this shit in this strip was Roz operating in good faith.)
I can’t imagine giving any kinda ‘sexual advice’ to my friends unprompted/unless they bring it up first like, “i’m on birth control” “congrats” is as far as i’d get unless they continue
A) Roz should learn not to get in the middle of conversations she only hears part of.
B) Dorothy sucks at being subtle. She should just say, “I don’t think Joe is good for you. Trust me, I’ve known him too long.”
I still wonder if Dorothy and Joe have any history between each other that they both kept from Danny. This level of distrust comes from somewhere, though the do list could be enough.
re: point B
she DID already say that, though. two weeks ago (real time) she said exactly that: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/02-turning-saints-into-the-sea/calmyourself/
Okay, then she has given her advice and Joyce gets to take it or leave it. Dorothy can back the hell off.
To be fair, in game it’s been about 4 months since the do list went public, and before that Joe actively pretended to have used alcohol to “facilitate threesomes” – which, uh, out of context of seeing him value consent and autonomy explicitly to Danny I would’ve taken as a major date rape red flag (this panel https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/theplural/ for context). Like, without the added context Joyce has, I’d be of the same opinion as Dorothy not on the slut shame side but more on the, “I am concerned this man is actively unsafe” side. We know that Joe actually isn’t like that, but that’s with the benefit of seeing behind his horndog PUA persona. I don’t think Dorothy has the benefit of seeing behind it.
I have no idea why I wrote game instead of comic. Chalk it up to an “it’s obscenely early” brain fart.
Dorothy’s known him for years in high school. She’s seem him at his worst.
I’d also be on the actively unsafe side.
And it’s not just seeing behind the persona, but we (and Joyce) have seen him confronted on that and seen him working to change.
Joyce ain’t wrong. People can push you to your breaking point even when they’re trying to offer sound advice or look out for you. People need to respect others’ agency.
Yep, one more potentially reasonable conversation shut down by Roz jumping in with hasty judgments and slogans. What was it I said yesterday about bodies and the business of them?
Dang, and people think Amazi-Girl has a problem with escalating conflicts.
Until Dorothy stops trying to be Joyce’s mom and start treating her like a peer, there was no reasonable conversation that was going to take place.
It wasn’t reasonable, but Roz jumping in with judgements and slogans still didn’t help.
If Dorothy isn’t rude, Roz never has to step in. Roz may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back but Dorothy’s the one who heaped the first bales
This thanks
I really don’t think Dorothy has been reasonable. She still hasn’t actually asked Joyce why she’s interested in Joe, she’s just stonewalling the both of them.
That’s true. I guess it’s been like ten minutes, though. The potential was there.
I have NO idea how you could possibly have seen that conversation as “reasonable”.
I said “potentially”. At some point Dot “could” have stopped circling around telling Joyce that Joe has a long history of treating women like objects for him to have sex on and has nothing to offer in human relationships, and then Joyce might tell her that’s not who he is anymore, and they could potentially have a meaningful exchange of information. The point being, once Roz interferes there’s no such possibility.
Willis generally portrays Dorothy positively – as the reasonable and “correct”, if socially clumsy character. But recently she has come across more negatively, and quite so here. I wonder where he is aiming for her character to go?
Yeah, this exchange seems a bit out of character (mainly because I had friends in college who went on birth control for medical reasons and I never connected it with their sex lives because condoms and STIs exist and birth control is best with relationships where everyone knows their exact STI status at any point… so I can’t imagine Dorothy bringing it up out of nowhere. But other commenters have theories so let’s see where it goes.)
I don’t think anyone in the comic is always correct. They’re all just people who are right about some things and wrong about others and sometimes are neither right or wrong but just disagree with each other. (Except maybe Mary; Mary’s pretty much always wrong, at least so far.)
Not the angle I was expecting the rage to come from but damn glad to see it.
It occurs to me…Joe has been the Most Non-judgmental about Joyce’s birth control, hasn’t he? The comic cut away from the potential remainder of that conversation, but…all he said was “on birth control?” The way I see it, he expressed mild surprise and then moved right on, didn’t pay much attention to it. For Joyce, who has always seen both birth control and Joe as being inherently sexual, I imagine his failure to jump on any possible pickup lines (and instead basically just going “huh, ok” and moving on) was incredibly reassuring.
So iirc, so far, Joe is the one person who’s gone “birth control, neato, thumbs-up-emoji” and not made Some Kinda Deal about it. I dunno, I just think that’s maybe interesting.
Yes. Joe actually cares about Joyce, and will only approach having sex with her if he’s sure she’s comfortable with it. The fact that she is pharmaceutically prepared right now has no bearing on his actions.
One interesting thing about Dorothy and Joyce’s current conflict regarding Joe, is that in certain ways it’s kinda a conflict of faith (like a parallel to Joyce’s recent conflict with Becky). But instead of being about faith in the religious sense, it’s about two people’s faith in a person. Similar to how Joyce (understandably) lost faith in her religion due to her past experiences with it, Dorothy has no faith in Joe (also understandably) due to her past experiences with/adjacent to Joe. And like how Becky is aware of the issues and flaws with the Christian experience she and Joyce were brought up in but also still finds solace and comfort in her faith, Joyce is also a person who is a aware of the flaws and past failings of Joe, but for Joyce he has also been a form of solace and comfort (and now attraction). Just a neat parallel, don’t know if it was intentional or not, but interesting all the same.
Dorothy, the middle-ness of her finger isn’t fucking important right now, you ass-bleedingly pedantic child.
Eh, I tend to treat the last panel of every strip as of being of dubious canonicity and often only used for the punchline.
That’s fair enough. I get really irritated by that specific behavior, for various reasons that would be over sharing. Evan as a joke it grates.
You’re quite right, this is extremely annoying behaviour from Dorothy plus you get added “isn’t Joyce such a child, she can’t even flip the bird properly” for good measure
I’m going to hazard a guess that it doesn’t really help that this is at least the second time Joyce has done this gag? First time was with Sarah, I don’t remember where exactly it is in the timeline.
Finally. I’ve been waiting for Joyce to stick up for herself.
Finally, poor Joyce gets some catharsis! This was long overdue.
“STOP BEING ALL UP MY BUTT ABOUT EVERYTHING”
Okay, one more thing. This whole concept of “slut shaming” is extra goddamn irritating because Joyce is not a “slut” in the first place. She’s just being shamed for existing, essentially. She’s taking some pills to regulate her fucking period and contemplating going out with one guy. Maybe I’m taking the phrase too literally, but she’s barely finished digesting her first placebo, for fuck’s sake. I swear, she’s being supernaturally patient with these clowns. Buncha noisy fuckin’ harlequins.
Props to Joyce for getting just her ring finger up enough to look like she’s flipping the bird. Is it just me that finds that physical more difficult than raising the middle finger?
Nope not just you: middle, index or pinkie – no problem, but ring finger requires a lot of planning, concentration and help from the thumb (at least for me)
A thought occurs. Now, I haven’t actually looked into this (yet), so I may be off base, but is it possible that the ring finger was chosen for that purpose specifically because it’s harder to move for a lot of people? Less mobility = less opportunities for catastrophic ring failure, right?
Smart if true.
I find my ring finger’s and pinky’s movement is tied together, but I can move them relatively easily when I need to.
Could be for Joyce. I wish Dorothy didn’t feel the need to correct every little thing about Joyce like thst. It’s frustrating when you finally express yourself only for the person to focus on something insignificant like this as though trying to change the conversation.
Oh, shut up and get back in Twitter, Roz. Don’t you have a minority to talk over?
Go troll Elon, Roz. You’d be doing something funny at least.
She doesn’t know where she’s going, just away from all of them. She will stop, and look up at Joe’s Dormroom Window. How did she get here?
There is a knock at the window. Danny walks up thining it’s Sal.
It’s not.
“Hey is… Joe in?”
Danny: “He’s still in bed. His next class isn’t until later this evening.”
Joyce: “I’m coming up.”
Roz: “You mean coming on Joe.”
Joyce: “Did you effing follow me??!”
Go, Joyce, go find some better friends. The bar is low enough that it shouldn’t take too long.
Give her a break, Becky, she did manage to say “hell”.
I think that’s Dorothy?
Yeah, Becky seems to be the only one keeping her damn mouth shut. Which makes her opinion the only one being expressed properly. (Aside from Joyce.)
It’s interesting how Becky don’t say a world during all this disaster. I kinda hope she and Joyce will have a private and sincere discussion soon about this matter. Joyce’s explosion in panel four is amazing. GO JOYCE!
All of em can fudge off, to be honest.
YES. FINALLY
Reminds me of a kid I knew when he was in fourth grade, who used to flip his index fingers at class mates when he got angry and didn’t get why everybody was laughing at him (which made him even angrier). On the plus side this fail kept him from getting in real trouble.
When I was in third grade, I was punished for sticking up my middle finger. I didn’t know what it meant, and they wouldn’t tell me.
Gods, I always hated that shit. If you won’t explain to somebody why they’re being punished, then they’re not in trouble and you don’t have a reason to hold them hostage. Especially when it’s a kid.
Fun fact that’s how I learned the N-word. When I was a kid I was a fan of Winnie the Pooh, my favorite one being “Tigger” (some of you keen eyed audience members may already see where this is going.) So I was doing what kids do and just spouting rhyming words when some kid overheard me and told on me to the teachers. They told me I used a bad word but I didn’t even know which one I said was the bad one. And obviously they’re not gonna say which one was the bad one. And I certainly don’t envy the white teachers who have to explain to an innocent black child what word was the bad one and why.
It was probably years before I found out what it was.
That one’s kinda funny to me, just because I’ve heard a bunch of variations on it that always end with some white buffoon stammering and beating around the bush to avoid saying an extremely targeted slur at an innocent kid who hasn’t even realized they said it.
That’s also a perfect illustration of my point, I think. Nobody wants to be the administrator teaching a kid a slur, it’s just a bad look and the parents are probably gonna have Questions (chiefly “Why are you calling my kid the N-word?”), so if you can’t follow through on that, there’s no reason to start scolding in the first place.
I have a sorta similar anecdote, also involving A Certain Yellow Bear and his friends. My siblings and I, couldn’t have been older than maybe 6/7, we’re going through the names of each character and swapping out the first letters of their names. Well, we got to the obvious one and started giggling because we’d heard that word before and knew it was a cuss word (but didn’t understand the actual severity) and thought it was really funny to say rude things about Pooh Bear. Our parents overheard us laughing and came in to check out the fun, heard us repeatedly saying really awful shit, and then it was ass-whoopin’ time. To their credit, they did actually explain to us what we’d said and why it was wrong (even though they kept saying it themselves), which helped solidify our concept of fair punishment. Any time we fucked up like that, they were quick to explain why and how, instead of just taking our PlayStation away like nerds.
I wouldn’t call the teacher a buffoon. She was doing her best. The true villain of my story was the little brat who told on me. They were there, they knew the context. I wasn’t calling anyone a name or using it as a sentence enhancer. They knew I was just saying random rhyming words and they still decided to tattle on me. They’re the ones who put us in that situation and got off Scott free.
You know how kids will make up swears? Like, in the sense that they’re like, “I know I’m not allowed to say shit or fuck, so what if I just come up with a random word to say instead?” I got to deal with one of those once, when the word the kid had come up with as a “safe replacement” was…f*g.
He clearly didn’t know what it meant, because it was like he dropped his pencil case and everything spilled out, and he was like, “Oh, f*g.” So I was like, “Uh, hey, let’s talk for a minute?” And he mentioned that he had said it when his teacher was there before, and she hadn’t said anything. I suggested that maybe she hadn’t heard, but I think it was also possible that she was like, “Well, don’t know what to do with that.”
It’s harder when the kid can’t identify the word in question, though, and you also don’t want to say it… but also, you don’t want the kid going around like, “This is fine to say.”
I also usually don’t care about kids swearing in general, just slurs or if they’re swearing *at* someone. When I was a substitute, sometimes I’d be in a clas and kids would be talking to each other and swear, then suddenly remember that I was there and apologize, and it takes me a minute to figure out what they’re apologizing for.
Even worse was the forced, meaningless apologies. My elementary school loved that method of “conflict resolution”. “There, he mumbled ‘sorry’ in the least convincing way possible, so now you accept, shake hands, and go be friends!” Yeah, THAT doesn’t immediately result in more bullying.
One time I had one of the teachers seeing double because I flipped the script on them. “No, he’s not sorry. He’s only saying that because you’re making him!” They didn’t know what to do, so we both got sent to the principal’s office.
Those were so fucking irritating, because the exact same teachers would reject an actual, unprompted apology because “you’re only sorry you got in trouble”. They’re just teaching kids that all apologies are meaningless, and also that kids are literally incapable of understanding their own thoughts and emotions, while simultaneously being deliberately malicious and cognizant of all the harm they could potentially be doing. To this day, I can’t see or hear the phrase “you’re only sorry you got caught/in trouble” without at least rolling my eyes.
And yeah, if you call them on their blatant, lazy bullshit, they always go straight to escalation and send you to somebody higher up, who then assumes that because a person with authority sent you to them, you’re obviously misbehaving and in need of discipline. After all, why would Mrs. Kratchpelt send you to the office just because she’s too incompetent and bullheaded to “deal with you” right now?
ANY authority figure who treats someone below them as an automatic problem deserves to lose that authority then and there, on the spot, in the most embarassing way possible. Especially when it’s a kid who’s being treated that way. Yes, even the “troublemakers” deserve to be treated as human beings, because half the time they’re “acting out” from mistreatment/improper care in the first place.
You know what word I’ve grown to hate. “Excuse” because whenever I hear it used it’s just “a reason I don’t like.” What’s the difference between an explanation and an excuse? It varies. I’m sick of it. I try to explain why I did something or why something happened and I just hear “I don’t want an excuse”. FUCK YOU IM TRYING TO EXPLAIN MY PERSPECTIVE! Do you not wanna hear it? Fucking hate that. This isn’t really related but your post reminded me of that. It’s a classic “I don’t respect people below me” issue.
Oh, I hate “excuse” too. If you don’t recite the exact specific sequence of events that the person has already decided upon in their head, down to the smallest vocal inflection, you’re “making an excuse”. What you’re making an excuse for is seldom actually explained. On top of that, the sequence they invented for you typically assumes the absolute worst of you, your intentions, your intelligence, and anything else they can come up with to stay angry.
Hell, I’ve given direct, honest answers with absolutely no attempt to sugar-coat or weasel my way out of consequences, and still gotten accused of “making excuses”. It really does just translate to “I don’t respect you, you’re less than me, don’t even bother trying to speak.”
At the rate this comments section is going lately, we could probably compile a small dictionary of seemingly-innocuous, common words and phrases that are often used to deliberately shove other people into the dirt while framing any given scenario in a way that makes the target look as bad as possible. “Just”, “excuse”, “only sorry because”, “troublemaker”, hell even “bright” and “gifted”.
I remember as a kid flipping people off with my ring finger as a way to flick people off but be able to say “no, teacher. This is my ring finger. I have done nothing wrong”. I don’t think I was ever confronted about it but I doubt that argument would’ve even worked in hindsight.
I don’t see a bratty kid in this story. I see a budding civil rights advocate.
Yup thats been coming for a while now, poor joyce
I’m sorry Joyce had to boil to this point but man I’m glad to see her go off on them for all doing what they said they wouldn’t do.
It’s deserved too, given how especially Dorothy has been about it.
Anyone notice that panel 3 looks like that “women yelling at cat” meme?
Got the reference. Sadly, the cat part is missing.
Nothing I want more now than this comic.
Panel 1 Joyce storms into Joe’s room
Panel 2 The Door
Panel 3 Joyce is shoving Danny out of the room.
Panel 4 The Door
Panel 5 The Door
The next day we just see Joyce and Joe Hugging followed by her venting on her frustrations with everything.
Somebody better be playing with somebody else’s hair in this scenario, or I swear I’ll riot.
Joyce in Joe’s lap, Joe playing with her hair. After she’s had a chance to vent, she reaches up like in Yoto’s art posted higher up.
I’m actually 100% on Joyce’s side here on this. They (I mean, it’s mostly Dorothy, right? Everyone else has made a few jokes but not actual Concerns) can’t go around saying birth control is no big deal and not about sex, and then immediately start worrying that she’s going to go have sex now that she’s on it.
As someone who has been the Mom Friend before, Dorothy, take a chill pill. You’re not Joyce’s parent, and the more you make yourself do things for her, the more you’re gonna just resent her when she makes choices you wouldn’t make.
To be fair I think this is less about the birth control and more about Joyce’s feelings for Joe. They could have used another kind of contraception.
the meme where the guy is having trouble deciding between two buttons but Dorothy’s head is photoshopped on and the buttons say “Help Joyce realize her own strength in her judgements” and “Shame Joyce over the subject of her affections because it’s Joe”
Dorothy: “You villainous playboy! You villainous interloper! Depart from my precious baby!”
Joe: “I’m insulted and dehumanized by the fact that you don’t think I’m capable of growth and maturity.
Roz: “Threesome!”
Joe: “Threesome?”
Dorothy: “Real Life isn’t a Porno!”
Haha that’s funny…
Unless…
I love that Joyce keeps getting better at speaking up for herself and defend her boundaries!!
Yeah I love this Joyce.
Still no motorcycle for you, Joyce.
yes joyce OMG TELL EM
As an autistic person, i do love when people talk about me and for me like I’m not right fucking there. Like fuck the fuck right off
Isn’t it just fantastic when you’re more of a subject to debate and argue over and talk around, rather than an actual person? People really do love to treat actual, living human beings who are ostensibly their friends or loved ones as if they were a hypothetical fictional character.
This isn’t really a specific to this page comment, but I feel like the more independent Joyce has managed to get, the more Dorothy has started trying to mother her. Like, she helped Joyce with stuff before the time jump, but she wasn’t trying to organize Joyce’s time/activities (even though the drawing class was helpful, it was weird, and I think Joyce had only asked her to look up some options, not book her in and buy her a sketchbook), go into Joyce’s appointments (she at least had some re: her punching wrist), or as far as I recall, lecture her on personal decisions. Maybe on like “here’s why you can’t do that actually shitty thing,” but not at random between classes when they’re just walking around.
I definitely think the whole Yale situation is stressing Dorothy out, and she might be falling back on certain habits a little more strongly than is maybe helpful. I hope she can settle down long enough to realise she’s sorta been the tiniest bit of a tool to Joyce and they can talk this over more openly.
That makes sense to me- she could be bearing down either because she thinks “I stayed here for Joyce I HAVE to raise her now,” or “next term I’m REALLY going to Yale, so I have to fix Joyce before then.”
Meant “she could ALSO be bearing down because,” as in that it’s as well as the stress, not that it’s specifically how the stress is manifesting
It could also also be her having still not really processing the trauma from the kidnapping scenario. For her, consistency, control and routine is synonymous with safety. I feel like her doubling down on trying to control her surroundings is a symptom of that and it has been showing up as inability to truly acknowledge the change and growth Joyce has been having. The Yale decision is another change looming over Dorothy when she really is seeking safety.
Yeah, I (and I think a lot of people) keep kind of forgetting that the kidnapping effected anyone other than Joyce, Becky, and Amber, even though the others were also kidnapped and in mortal danger.
I also forgot that Dorothy dealing with that badly/pretending she’s perfectly fine was a focus for a little while
Yep I would say the kidnapping had this effect on Sarah and Becky also to an extent. All three seem to treat taking care of Joyce more seriously as a group activity then before. Probably has to do with remembering old Joyce as naive but lightheared which they all want to go back to.
Yeah, that and the kidnapping. She’s not dealing nearly as well as she wants to be.
I’m hoping once everyone has a few hours to get into a better headspace and emotional state (i.e. Joyce isn’t angry anymore, Dorothy had time to reflect and not be defensive) they can be a good conversation.
Becky and Joyce finally yelling at each other about atheism definitely helped, but that felt like a healthier thing than this to me (at least at the point where they started yelling, they were actually being pretty open, whereas Dorothy hasn’t really said anything clear yet. If they can’t have an okay conversation from here, then maybe they need a second instance of yelling)
Don’t forget when the person who tried to assault Joyce stalked Dorothy and planned to kill her. That’s probably relevant.
I feel like I could reference Institutionalized on this page too
[not sure how long it takes for old pages’ comments to turn off, so before that happens: I want to be clear that it’s because Institutionalized is about one’s parents insisting something’s wrong with them (and that they’re on drugs, but that’s less relevant) when really they are just being quiet and trying to figure themselves out. That and because there’s a lot of yelling]
Oh Roz, with her constant good messaging marred entirely by how utterly BAD she is at expressing her stances. I want to like her, but my god she makes it hard.
As an aside, it must be so utterly exhausting to be Joyce and have about everything you do and say undermined by your friends’ ‘witticisms’.
Some of this would be ok in a private conversation. None of it works well as a teen shouting match. For both Dorothy and Roz, this is more about themselves than Joyce. She is more a pretext that a subject. Like an NPC ina game.
Honestly, this would be the best time for Becky to talk to her. Provided she says the right thing. And I think she might.
The art in panel 4 is so good.
Just by making the birth control stuff about sex when she has period issues has been ableist of them? Plus they’re all perpetuating some level of misogyny towards Joyce. I’ve had that before where the most helpful person to talk to was literally a guy with an outsider’s perspective on sexism. When you experience it all the time you can get desensitized to it and not really realize how bad it is or when you’re perpetuating it I feel like.
Dorothy once again says something that sounds super creepy out of context.
Joyce really needs space right now. Some of the other comments talk about the kidnapping trauma. Like, remember Dorothy is the only one here who was in the situation when amber stabbed gashface repeatedly, because he was stalking Dorothy and planning to kill her. That’s probably relevant to why Dorothy’s been overprotective towards Joyce!