i mean from what we’ve seen/heard has joe ever had a steady ‘girlfriend’ versus casual hookups, i guess it might be harder as a thing to offer to underage teens even if it’s someone in your friend group or a hot popular girl/guy at school offering but it does seem like it’d cause drama if it was openly known that multiple ppl liked the same person
(i mean , idk how many ppl got caught or would be bitter/resentful but when i was younger there was like a ‘one week’ etiquette before dating someone’s ex in a friend group but this was before smartphones so other than being neighbors/in after school clubs/teams where they’d have chances to spend time and not be seen idk how many ppl risked sneaking around)
I assume the intent is that she tried to warn the girls Joe asked out that he was only interested in the casual hookup, not in a girlfriend. Pretty sure Dorothy doesn’t think he’s really interested in a steady girlfriend now, nor has Joyce given her any reason to think she knows better.
It’s alarmingly easy to forget that people sometimes have different information than you do, and from there, it’s a short hop to “they don’t actually believe what they’re saying, no sensible person does, therefore they’re up to something.”
Joyce was raised by a family that likely drew this conclusion about others a LOT, and hasn’t dropped the habit.
Joyce has also been raised to always obey authority figures (what Dorothy has set herself up as here) so part of her anger is also trying to reassert her stance with Joe because she’s not used to simply going ‘ you and I may not agree but I have a right to make my own choices’
Yeah, this is really a perfect storm of differing information and experiences and unfortunate neuroses clashing in terrible ways.
Joyce is an adult who’s capable of making her own decisions, and she’s attracted to Joe on multiple levels, but she’s definitely in denial about how much her sexual repression is affecting things and her need to be independent is almost certainly going to blind her a bit to taking information or advice from someone with much more knowledge of Joe’s past behavior.
Dorothy, meanwhile, would honestly be right to be kind of concerned that Noted Horndog Chauvinist Joe is apparently showing interest in someone who is both highly inexperienced in dating and has been sexually assaulted before, but is also absolutely going to overstep bounds due to her established need to be right and take on protector/leader roles, and is almost certainly influenced by Joyce’s recent diagnosis.
Narratively it’s a great setup in which both characters are right and wrong about different things at the same time, ie, exactly what you want in a work of fiction about personal relationships and painful growth.
In the comments section, it’s the perfect recipe for a trash fire.
This plays into their dynamic perfectly, just like the optometrist visit. Dorothy has concerns, but they manifest as authority (“I booked an eye appointment for you”, “do not get with Joe”) instead of peer interaction (“you should get your eyes checked”, “you know what you’re getting into, right?”) That just makes Joyce dig her heels in.
Despite what you were told as a child, the word “please” does not make a phrase a request. Lots of people say “please” in lots of contexts where, in fact, they’re not making anything like a request at all. They’re just being polite.
It’s possible, but given what we see, I think it comes down to how we already see the character in this scene.
We can’t hear her tone, which would probably make it clear.
“Please” doesn’t necessarily make a request. Nor, I guess, does the “I’m asking you”. OTOH, neither makes it a demand either.
It’s certainly more ambiguous than if she’d just said the “do not get with Joe” that Needfuldoer quoted above.
i love both these characters and they are both making good points. this argument will turn into a fight and that fight will suck, but i believe after time and seeing how things with joe go, they will repair their friendship and go back to being besties
From what I’ve heard from most artists it’s pretty hard to actually get off to your own stuff. Dunno why. probably just a mental block since you just see the process of making it more than the lewdness of it.
I write erotica and I can only get off from it if I somehow forget I wrote it. Otherwise I’m either distracted by criticizing myself, looking for continuity errors, or being like “oh yeah, I worded this THIS way, because of this thing that inspired it” (which I might go jerk off to separately if the inspiration was erotic)
I have, however, jerked off during or after writing though, since my brain is deep in ‘what is the hottest possible thing to happen next for these characters.’ Preferably after, since I write it better when I’m actually wanting to do the things, rather than when I’m done.
This has been my experience. Often times the SCENARIO in my head is hotter than what I actually put on the canvas. So I can get off on the idea but not the actual drawing, if that makes sense. Also the only art of mine I’ve found hot is art that is considerably old because often times I forget I drew it so it feels almost brand new to me.
When I’m in a very specific mood I’ll write a 6 paragraph sex scene embedded in 2 chapters of text, just to make sure it’s not contrived. The process of it requires that I relax and concentrate at the same time in order to be creative.
I have, unironically, watched porn with the sole motivation of getting references for art. It’s a weird feeling when I’m like actually studying the anatomy and not just…watching the video.
I have an entire folder of bookmarks of porn specifically for character design and position reference. I like to make certain that anything I describe is actually possible, which is easy enough for stuff I’ve done personally, but for anything outside, I like to get a reference video of actual humans.
Is “Happy Solstice” not appropriate for non-pagans? Aside from being a day late, that is. Happy Solstice athiests. Also everyone else, no matter what you believe, it was still the solstice yesterday.
My search history is full of stuff on people going into damp caves. That’s not a sex thing, I’m writing a review paper on the effects of anthropogenic activity on subterrian ecosystems and troglodytic species diversity. Though some of the paper titles sound vaguely sexual “Population density, habitat dynamic and aerial survival of relict cave bivalves from genus Congeria in the Dinaric karst by Galvas et al” for example.
I mean, the student population on-campus is the size of a small city in itself (45,000+ as of last year). Joyce wouldn’t necessarily have to date within the circle of people they already know.
there’s actually an entire horde of perfectly decent, attractive, single guys with their own nuanced, complex personalities and rich inner lives, just off-screen at all times. if only these gals ever glanced past the strip border!
Nah, there’s only around five guys and about twelve girls or so give or take the brief cameo and the one or two gender non conformers that maybe can fit either category which you think would make dating easier but most likely doesn’t. If Joyce can’t get Joe to work I guess she better start looking into Lyle or broaden her gender pool.
That was a bit after my time; did they handle it better than Ed, Edd, n’ Eddy? (Most of the series took place on one cul-de-sac over summer vacation, then they made a season where the characters went back to school. Problem is they didn’t fill the school out with extras, and there were never any adults in the series at all. As a result the school scenes felt empty, almost post-apocalyptic. The only time they introduced an additional character was the finale.)
Sidenote: Tony becoming an active character in DOA would honestly make my day. It’s never going to happen, and it’s honestly funnier that he’s irrelevant, but a man can dream.
Joyce and Danny would be an interesting trainwreck to watch given how both of them struggle with both asserting and respecting boundaries, self-worth, and direct communication in this universe.
She’s definitely not. She’s definitely under a lot of stress, and she doesn’t let any of her friends know about it, even less why. We the audience don’t even know why yet… But we can hasard a guess. One part identity crisis (two many people questioning her people-skills and chances of becoming President) and second-thoughts about going to Yale (Dorothy’s social life might never have been this good, and she’s made some really meaningful friendships she’s loathe to leave behind). She’s placing a lot of pressure on herself and it’s finally getting to her.
Definatly, with Jacob and Ethan too there was always a degree of personal likability and trust that had to happen before Joyce began thinking of intimacy. I don’t think Dorothy really wants to consider that angle because it helps her argument to stay away from Joe if Joyce is nothing but horny and a terrible judge of character, and it’s not occurring to Joyce to bring up the prior friendship because right now she’s feeling personally attacked.
being horny can cause ppl to make mistakes/make irrational decisions but a ‘mistake’ with joe is better than getting drunk at a bar and taking home a stranger lol
I mean, I guess it’s better than doing it drunk – though Joe has talked about using alcohol to get sex, so Dorothy probably still sees that as a possibility. Otherwise, not sure that a mistake with Joe would be better than one with a stranger. At least not a mistake with the Joe Dorothy knew, who wanted to fix Joyce with his penis.
Getting a little tired of hearing about that last bit. I think Joe assumed that Joyce was feeling “at last, out from under my parents’ thumb!” and looking to shatter her repressive upbringing — that she wanted to be “fixed” and would cooperate enthusiastically. Epic failure to read the other’s character, but not evil.
No idea why you’d think he’d assume that. They’d barely spoken. He’d seen her in gender studies, where she was talking about finding a husband. When he asked her out, she asked his opinion on “marital sanctity” and he walked away talking about breaking her in.
If that’s just a failure to read her character, it’s the most epic ever and has to say something about his general attitude.
And I’m getting tired of people in the comments section defending or ignoring blatant misogyny because they happen to like the character and his current arc.
It was super creepy? It’s… Like… That’s one of those things that Joyce and Joe had a conversation about. Dorothy isn’t aware of that conversation. It’s literally just communication issues, so just that fact that they’re both communicating right now is a good thing. They’ll eventually get to the overlooked issue but haven’t gotten there yet, hopefully?
Joe’s parents are divorced, and Joyce’s are going through one. That’s what they eventually bonded over.
Their interests don’t really converge, but that could be said of many of the other pairings in this comic. Walky and Dorothy only had cartoons. Becky only started to show an interest in science after she met Dina. Joyce has displayed an openness to working out in the dorm gym when she was interested in Jacob, and Joe showed an interest in her comic strip and went with her to her live figure drawing class. They are both good people with good hearts. Sometimes, that’s enough.
Divorced parents, slowly crawling out of established gender roles, overly co-dependent best friends (though Danny seems to have been getting better on that front). Oh, and basic chemistry.
idk how much she and walky have in common but they were married in an alternate story themselves so you never know lol, you can be decent friends and date without having ‘common’ interests as long as you get along and have chemistry i suppose
Joyce’s search history like
“male anatomy diagrams”
“ding-dongs”
“boys without pants on”
“butts”
“boy butts”
“boy butts being touched”
“tall boy butts being touched”
“how to delete search history”
“really tall boy butts being touched”
“hand holding”
“How to seduce a sexually active guy”
“Is playing hard to get mean?”
“Pictures of Cats”
“Art Class supplies”
“Do guys find girls with glasses cute?”
“How to draw characters from a 3/4 view”
“Boy Butts”
Upon typing a few of those in to google Joyce (and anyone curious like me) might need to be careful with those search terms. Maybe “man butts” would be a nice refinement if you don’t want the FBI knocking. Also I imagine her history has a lot of male underwear models.
Haha Honestly hadn’t even considered that. Mostly cuz I call people well into their 20s and even 30s boys/girls. Ironically I considered writing “teens” for one but thought “naw that might sound a little sus” not even realizing my solution was worse!
you’re missing like four pages where she tries every version of “tushy/tushie” before copying “Butt” from another site and ctrl+V’ing it instead of typing it.
bah. when I was a kid, they didn’t just pipe this stuff into your house along with the water and electricity; we had to go out and find it ourselves (in magazines and the occasional catalog), and then hide it under the bed.
I remember that too … walking three miles in the snow in below-freezing weather to the dirty bookstore to get the latest Playboy or Penthouse, then walking back home with my illicit purchase in its brown paper bag concealed under my coat and tucked into the waistband of my pants. And it was uphill and into the wind both ways!!
well, other than extremely high standards i dont imagine most ppl to try to aim for the most seemingly perfect person their first try (tho awkward friendships aside i’d feel more comfortable going on a ‘date’ with afriend i’ve known for five years rather than a random attractive stranger hitting on me at a bar/tinder)
what is she supposed to defend against? Dorothy never made any accusations against him.
all she’s said so far is “i don’t like him. you shouldn’t date him.”
also, acting like a demanding judgemental mother is NOT going to go well with joyce.
Does Dorothy know about Joyce’s date with Joe at the very start of the school year? Because Joyce figured out Joe was a bad match then, so the fact she’s now reconsidering might be a better way to get into this than just laying down the law. “Come on, you know Joe isn’t right for you. Why change your mind?” “Um, because I’m not the same person I was then, and he’s changed as well?” “Joe? Change? What?” *Dorothy’s head explodes*
But then, based on yesterday’s strip, Dorothy’s personal investment in this is genuine and suspect, in the sense that not all of her objections are for Joyce’s own good, as opposed to for Dorothy’s own comfort.
Dorothy is performing a “move to conclude” one of the less advised methods to take in my old call center escalation handling gig. She assumes she knows all factors and has the answer and is simply stating it to both parties.
Empathy statement followed by probing questions is always the way to go to make sure both parties are listening and that you have the correct information yourself 😉
I hated my old gig but I can recognize moves that quadruple call times and place you in a stalemate and it’s horrible.
Dorothy’s way too personally invested but also she’s willfully decided to somewhat remove herself socially. I think we’re seeing the consequences of these things as she’s somewhat selectively available to her friends. She has alot of academic gumption but her social skills are actually pretty poor and she seems unable to deploy any sort of academic abstraction to compensate.
I actually think Joyce’s sociability could help Dorothy get better at group interactions if they went to more parties and social events together. Joyce is good at approaching new people which is a skill that Dorothy really needs to improve, she just needs to admit there’s things her friends can help her with and not always the reverse.
Yeah the conversation would go alot better if Dorothy asked Joyce to describe what she sees in Joe personally but looking for good in Joe is a subject Dorothy doesnt want to touch with a 10 foot pole.
It’s not helping that Joyce isn’t admitting to seeing anything in Joe at all, but just going off on how she’s not horny and doesn’t want to touch his butt.
Now if this was the Joe from before, yeah, absolutely, bad idea (IDC how horny you are, fucking some asshole who thinks he can fix you with his penis is a bad idea. It may be my friend’s bad idea to make but I would definitely be on the record as telling them ‘bad idea’). But just horny is fine
I always wonder if joe’s early joe-ness wasn’t just all a front to keep feelings away. he seemed weirdly self aware for someone dense enough to say “My dick can cure you” with anything akin to seriousness.
Unfortunately Joyce still isn’t at the stage of admitting that horny is a valid reason in itself and she’s been raised to be obedient so she feels she would have to listen to Dorothy if she didn’t have “good” reason to hangout with Joe.
i mean at this point might as well take advantage of the birth control (tho someone like joe i’d assume would have condoms anyways because irl someone who was just a ‘fuckboy’ surface level would have at least one std by now unless he only went after virgins specifically [genetic/passed ondiseases aside])
Sure, but when you’re serious sexually repressed, “just horny” can mess with your judgement – either about your own feelings or the other person’s. If Joyce was saying she was “just horny” and wanted to jump Joe’s bones with no further expectations, I don’t think Dorothy would be as concerned.
As you say, she might still think it’s a bad idea, because Joe, but not to the same level as Joyce’s hormones making her think she’s going to have a storybook romance with Joe.
I know Becky said she’d tone down her antagonism of Dorothy, but did Dot really expect to challenge Becky like that and then have Becky come to her aid?
She’s trying to take advantage of Becky’s possessive streak towards Joyce thinking Becky will sooner back her than support Joyce getting with Joe. Definitely a low blow from Dorothy, she’s trying to get somebody else involved to get Joyce ‘under control’ rather than admit Joyce won’t always listen to her.
idk if becky knew that jacob already had a gf at the time (tho they probably watched a lot of rom com movies where the protag ‘steals’ their ‘soulmate’ from a ‘terrible’ current gf to where she wouldn’t be surprised) but feels like she’d also encourage it liek she did with jacob (plus it might put her more at ease if joe is with joyce as opposed to thinking he’s the reason that dina needs for sexual arousal)
Unfortunately the fact that Dorothy tried to get Becky involved to gang up on convincing Joyce no to pursue Joe suggests she’s not about to stop even though she can’t verbalize any more specific reasons to avoid Joe.
Ignoring the specifics of Joyce and Joe, does “Don’t get involved with [foobar], they are a creep/lothario/cut their toast the wrong way” trick ever work? Do people ever listen?
in real life? of course it does. plenty of folk will trust and respect their friends’ opinions on people that they have more experience with. in fiction? never, nope, not once ever
I think if the potential couple just met than it could work. But when you are talking about someone you’ve known for over a semester already, than no, not a chance. Particularly not in the manner that Dotty is going about it with the “I don’t like him/he’s a creep” shtick. To even have a chance to convince Joyce, Dorothy would have to tell her a story about Joe (preferably with proof) that would change the way she saw him, like that he kicks puppies in his spare time or something.
might depend on the closeness, or the other party ‘doubling down’. or maybe “just get drunk and f*** him to get him out of your system” tho that can still be risky even if you take all the safety precautions (tho i imagine it’d be more convincing if it’s like “this guy is ten years older than you, he’s only interested because women his own age” don’t put up with his bs, and in certain cases i suppose you could get parents involved/authorities even)
Wonder if Becky will be the one to tell Dorothy that Joyce and Joe were already on their first date ages ago? I’m really hoping your right and Becky is encouraging if only so Joyce doesn’t have to deal with a triumvirate of concerned mom friends like with the pharmacy trip.
Joyce feels like she’s clutching at straws as far as WHAT she’s mad at Dorothy about. All the other more serious things that she’s angry at her about are probably a helluva lot harder for her to put into proper words in the heat of the moment.
I mean, a lot of the reasons to be mad are kind of hard to define. Like from the outside, I’d summarize them as “Dotty has been weird and paternalistic* to Joyce” but that’s hard to sum up into a list of defined things a friend has done
*maternalistic? Dotty’s a lady but I don’t think that means the same thing, even if it’s the gender switched word
I think last two strips a good example of the paternalistic aspect. Dorothy is using her relationship to Joyce’s to demand obedience and summoning her ‘co-parent’ Becky to back her up when Joyce isn’t obeying her. It might be beneficial to have some space from each other for a bit because Joyce is struggling off her authoritarian parents upbringing and having a friend who takes charge of her to this extent isn’t healthy.
yeah definitely. it’s probably hard for Joyce to express that now. like “you keep… trying to protect me! and to help me with medical appointments!”
And we’d know what she means but I’m not sure Joyce would be able to articulate it any better than that, and intentionally or (most likely) not Dorothy could use that intangibility to say it’s nothing
Dorothy’s a little wrong in her methods, understandably concerned though. I’m now more concerned with Joyce being in denial about ALL the things than Dotty telling her off, haha. She’s enjoying herself without letting herself figure out the underlying reasons for what she wants, and that can be kinda self-defeating. Though I’m sure she feels like she needs a break….
Aside from going straight to the “your just horney” argument it’s hard to be completely open with yourself when feeling on the defensive so I can see why she’s looking for vindictive reasons in Dorothy’s accusations instead of real life reasons. That being said her underlying feelings for Joe are something Joyce needs time to process, she asked Joe for time so she could just enjoy the feeling on being wanted and think it through but Dorothy doesn’t want to give her that time.
I mean, Joyce spent like three panels talking about how she didn’t want to rub Joe’s butt all over her face before Dorothy went straight to “you’re just horny”, so I think it’s excusable.
While it’s not revenge, I do think “he’s a bad match, and you’re just horny” was kind of what Joyce said about her and Walky. Just spitballing good comebacks.
Not that Joyce has to win this argument. I mean they’re both wrong, regarding the other’s motives. But what Joyce decides to do is up to her. And Dorothy has failed to make a convincing argument.
And Becky’s a lot more likely to be on board. At least with less arguing. She knows a toned down version of Joe. Her and Dina are on friendly terms with him. Still a bit shallow on the surface, but he socializes with Dina in a way that makes her comfortable. He talked Becky when he was concerned about Joyce’s feelings. We don’t see every interaction, but I think those show a level of mutual respect that he and Dorothy have never had for each other.
Exactly! Dorothy missed all of Joe’s character development because she’s been avoiding him as much as possible. Becky knows he cares more than he may let on.
Kind of glad Becky wasnt summoned. Dorothy’s trying to use Becky’s possessive streak towards joyce against her by getting a third party involved so Joyce will back down. Even if Becky didn’t back Dorothy up the feeling of being suffocated by mom friends is not something Joyce needs right now and Dorothy needs to accept when she hasn’t made a convincing argument on her own.
Dorothy, I get it, you’re worried. Be there for if/when Joyce gets hurt and needs a shoulder to cry on – Remember, she has been repressed due to the crazy religious community she was from. She does NOT know how to handle horny
I love how Joyce hangups introduce too much noise for her to actually tell Dorothy that she’s been friends with Joe for a while and he’s been a good friend to her when she needed him. Absolutely excellent
all this just reminds me of all the relationships I’ve been in where people try to warn me about things I know, as if they know more than I do about a person they don’t care about, and I do. that, and joe and joyce are a fun couple and I just want to see them kiss. I made popcorn and everything, dorothy!
lol i’ve always had the opposite problems when teen friends ask for ‘advice’. tho i never really was like “you know i literally have no experience, right?” or they ask for a ‘second opinion’ even tho they already made their decision and either want them to be agreed with or just not bothering
Florence King once described a very enjoyable dalliance with a man she’d known for maybe a day, and then mentioned “It felt different (freeing?) to do something for itself,, and not to get material to write about”.
Let’s say Joyce fell for the Hypothetical-Horny-Joe that lives in Dorothy’s mind. They bang, consensually. Joe moves on, Joyce is heartbroken. That might be suboptimal, but it’s hardly the worst case scenario. Joyce has been through enough trauma, that a little heartbreak would not break her.
All that is ignoring the fact that Real-Joe is not the sex fiend he imagines himself to be, and is in fact capable of real relationship, even if it is entirely out of his wheelhouse.
I reread Men are from Beck, Women are from Clark. That Joe is a piece of shit and embracing it. That’s the Joe that lives in Dorothy’s mind. And I think that’s ok. Even if she knew Joe’s trying to be better, and has become better, she’s not obligated to give him the benefit of the doubt. People are allowed to just not like someone.
The problem is the Joyce in her mind is also the Joyce from that chapter. Too naive to tell someone is a piece of shit when they’re only red flags. Current Joyce has a reasonable level of savviness to decide if she wants to get involved with someone who has said he’s only interested in sex.
But does she have the level of savviness to do so when that someone is claiming to want more than just sex? Especially when she’s as obviously horny and crushing as she is.
I’m not sure Dorothy’s opinion of Joe is even as high “openly just wants sex”. I’m not sure my opinion of early Joe is that high either.
I think Joyce and Dorothy will have a fight and a very bad one. Dorothy is rightly worried about Joyce while Joyce could solve everything just telling her about the conversations she had with Joe and his declaration the day before. But so far she hasn’t and I’m starting to believe she doesn’t want to tell anyone about that. Maybe she considers the memories with Joe theirs memories, a private thing that she doesn’t want to share with anyone.
I think you’re right about the privacy of this relationship. It feels very familiar.
Joyce and Dorothy need to fight this through. They need to scream and rage and use up all the stored emotions until they have to fall back on facts and the disconnect in their understanding becomes evident.
Her denials of interest kind of sound like they run deep enough that it’s not just that she wants to keep them private, but that she’s not being honest with herself.
Even if she wants to deny her interest for him, that wouldn’t stop Joyce from defending Her Good Friend Joe against accusations that she knows are based on past behavior. For me Joyce is willfully avoiding to say the reasons for her deep friendship with Joe, while she’s, more or less and in a comical way, talking about her attraction to him. It doesn’t seem like she wants to tell why, for her, it’s a serious thing.
It’s also good for Joyce as a character, to be on the outs with both Becky and Dorothy, and there’s a nice mirror here in Dorothy being worried about Joyce’s sexuality and Becky being worried about Joyce discovering Becky’s newly updated sexual history. Lot of people out here mad at Dorothy when they could just be appreciating the thematic-ness of it all. I’m really enjoying the ride.
damn. im upset that dorothy is extremely in the right here. joe WAS a sex pest and joyce is, well, joyce. while joe HAS changed, even if dorothy knew all that, at the end of the day old habits die hard and joyce is…. well, joyce. lmao.
On one hand, I am firmly in the Joe/Joyce camp.
On the other, and maybe this is my conservative upbringing clawing itself back to the surface, but Joe would probably not be the best person for Joyce to have her first time with.
Joe is experienced, cares about Joyce, and has shown a willingness to be gentle with her and let her take her time about things. I can’t imagine a set of criteria more useful for someone’s sexual debut.
Joe is experienced? Maybe. He has revealed some of his talk about sex is bluffing. So who knows. Maybe the big shalyman twist is surprise, joe was a virgin until Roz and only had sex with her and malaya.
Thats would suck. If that happens then its two idiot virgins fumbling around in bed. Not knowing what the hell theyre doing. By rights, that sex would be awkward and terrible. Her with her fundie cult stuff and him fessing up to a life of lying? Ugh.
It would be great if joe actually has experience and helps joyce tbrough all the fundie cult programming that will inevitably show up. That joe might be able to make it a great experience for joyce. And maybe they turn into the het version of becky/dina. But no real good, strong, sex positive, het male role models here in doa, so i would not be surprised if joe confesses he has only had sex twice and its all a lie and he joins the DoA lineup of male weenuses.
Danny has mentioned post-timeskip that he “regularly” gets sexiled from his dorm room. That doesn’t seem to indicate Joe’s only ever had sex with Roz and Malaya, at least.
There should be one more panel, with Becky’s ears perking up, and her having a strong feeling that there is someplace she is supposed to be, RIGHT NOW!
The next page would be a montage of her trying to get to Joyce and Dorothy, similar to the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition bit.
Liz probably has 1/10th the cult programming that joyce does. When she almost had sex with joe, she freaked out and stopped saying she “almost ruined” herself.
Joyce has way more cult programming and could easy fall into an existential void if she goes through with it.
Dorothy is doing the right thing, trying to protect joyce from that kind of damage. Like walky punching asher to protect his sister. Or when sarah told joe not to break joyce. Good people look out for their friends.
The thing is Joyce could probably benefit from getting help from a cult deprogrammer or someone who can help her look at all the fundamentalist stuff still rattling around in her brain. So she doesnt have a meltdown like liz did.
But outside help doesnt lend itself to a soap opera drama plot, so she’ll ignore all advice and crash and burn her way through joe. I just hope she doesnt hurt joe while shes in so much denial about all the feelings going on in her head. She could do a lot of damage to herself and joe the way shes acting right now.
Joyce is going to date Joe, not jump straight into bed with him. Probably won’t be that long, but it will be long enough to be in the context of a serious relationship. Very different from what Liz was doing.
It’s Dorothy attempting to use some of her genre savviness to summon a character from Hammerspace, by saying something that along the lines of previous things that when said has caused Becky to pop up seemingly from nowhere, for comic effect
Dorothy isn’t breaking the fourth wall, she doesn’t know she’s in a slice of life sitcom dramedy, but the thought has crossed her mind
I’m hoping the in universe explanation Becky didn’t show is because she’s not lurking around Joyce as often now that she’s developing a social life outside of her. Unlike Dorothy, Becky could be coming to appreciate that her childhood friend isn’t as dependent on her and Dorothy as she originally thought.
“Cameron has never been in love – at least, nobody’s ever been in love with him. If things don’t change for him, he’s gonna marry the first girl he lays, and she’s gonna treat him like shit, because she will have given him what he has built up in his mind as the end-all, be-all of human existence. She won’t respect him, ’cause you can’t respect somebody who kisses your ass. It just doesn’t work.”
Play hookey with Ferris, Joyce. Get yourself straightened out before you fuck Joe. Dont be like Cameron.
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Dorothy tried to warn some of her high school friends too… it never worked.
And Willis tried to warn their past self. But alt-text autobiographical references cannot be searched in the past.
i mean from what we’ve seen/heard has joe ever had a steady ‘girlfriend’ versus casual hookups, i guess it might be harder as a thing to offer to underage teens even if it’s someone in your friend group or a hot popular girl/guy at school offering but it does seem like it’d cause drama if it was openly known that multiple ppl liked the same person
(i mean , idk how many ppl got caught or would be bitter/resentful but when i was younger there was like a ‘one week’ etiquette before dating someone’s ex in a friend group but this was before smartphones so other than being neighbors/in after school clubs/teams where they’d have chances to spend time and not be seen idk how many ppl risked sneaking around)
I assume the intent is that she tried to warn the girls Joe asked out that he was only interested in the casual hookup, not in a girlfriend. Pretty sure Dorothy doesn’t think he’s really interested in a steady girlfriend now, nor has Joyce given her any reason to think she knows better.
Becky is hiding in the rafters, eyebrows up, listening to Horny Joyce
Dina has taught Becky well.
Echoing from the distance: HOMPK!
Dumbing of Age Book 13: I Was Fine With Ethan, Because I Didn’t Know He Was Gay
…wait no
I’d be down with it.
Dumbing of Age Book 13: It’s Not Revenge
(or is it)
If it’s supposed to express a theme for the whole book, I suggest “Listen to me, Joyce, your best friend.”
Yeah, out of context it sounds kinda homophobic.
I enjoy that they’re both wrong
I wonder how much Joyce is actually enjoying being in denial.
We know that she occasionally gets a kick of bringing up her old fundie beliefs just to be like ‘haha wow, I used to believe that???’
Yeah dotty is wrong about Joe (understandably) and Joyce, who doesnt get why she’d be wrong, is wrong about Dorothy’s motives! This is fun chaos.
It’s alarmingly easy to forget that people sometimes have different information than you do, and from there, it’s a short hop to “they don’t actually believe what they’re saying, no sensible person does, therefore they’re up to something.”
Joyce was raised by a family that likely drew this conclusion about others a LOT, and hasn’t dropped the habit.
Joyce has also been raised to always obey authority figures (what Dorothy has set herself up as here) so part of her anger is also trying to reassert her stance with Joe because she’s not used to simply going ‘ you and I may not agree but I have a right to make my own choices’
Yeah, this is really a perfect storm of differing information and experiences and unfortunate neuroses clashing in terrible ways.
Joyce is an adult who’s capable of making her own decisions, and she’s attracted to Joe on multiple levels, but she’s definitely in denial about how much her sexual repression is affecting things and her need to be independent is almost certainly going to blind her a bit to taking information or advice from someone with much more knowledge of Joe’s past behavior.
Dorothy, meanwhile, would honestly be right to be kind of concerned that Noted Horndog Chauvinist Joe is apparently showing interest in someone who is both highly inexperienced in dating and has been sexually assaulted before, but is also absolutely going to overstep bounds due to her established need to be right and take on protector/leader roles, and is almost certainly influenced by Joyce’s recent diagnosis.
Narratively it’s a great setup in which both characters are right and wrong about different things at the same time, ie, exactly what you want in a work of fiction about personal relationships and painful growth.
In the comments section, it’s the perfect recipe for a trash fire.
Completely agreed.
This plays into their dynamic perfectly, just like the optometrist visit. Dorothy has concerns, but they manifest as authority (“I booked an eye appointment for you”, “do not get with Joe”) instead of peer interaction (“you should get your eyes checked”, “you know what you’re getting into, right?”) That just makes Joyce dig her heels in.
She is coming off strong, but not quite that strong. I mean, she does say “don’t get with Joe” last strip, but right after “Please, I am asking you”.
That doesn’t sound like asking to me.
She literally says “I am asking you”. Even says “please”.
It came off as “LISTEN TO ME” instead of “please i am asking you to listen to me”.
The Jeff is right in my opinion.
Despite what you were told as a child, the word “please” does not make a phrase a request. Lots of people say “please” in lots of contexts where, in fact, they’re not making anything like a request at all. They’re just being polite.
It’s possible, but given what we see, I think it comes down to how we already see the character in this scene.
We can’t hear her tone, which would probably make it clear.
“Please” doesn’t necessarily make a request. Nor, I guess, does the “I’m asking you”. OTOH, neither makes it a demand either.
It’s certainly more ambiguous than if she’d just said the “do not get with Joe” that Needfuldoer quoted above.
So much trashfire. If this was youtube we’d be hitting the front page.
Yeah, this one made me laugh. So
Much going on.
I’d quote “Cleopatterer” but that is a song I don’t really know, just know of.
i love both these characters and they are both making good points. this argument will turn into a fight and that fight will suck, but i believe after time and seeing how things with joe go, they will repair their friendship and go back to being besties
i hope
Or else Dorothy skies off to Yale and we never see her again.
I mean, I have a lot of stuff in my search history that is story research.
Doesn’t mean I (and you) didn’t masturbate to it, Joyce. Just that, when writing romance, that is sometimes part of the process.
Tell me about it! If you manage to rub one out on your own work, it’s a good sign! 😍😉
From what I’ve heard from most artists it’s pretty hard to actually get off to your own stuff. Dunno why. probably just a mental block since you just see the process of making it more than the lewdness of it.
I write erotica and I can only get off from it if I somehow forget I wrote it. Otherwise I’m either distracted by criticizing myself, looking for continuity errors, or being like “oh yeah, I worded this THIS way, because of this thing that inspired it” (which I might go jerk off to separately if the inspiration was erotic)
I have, however, jerked off during or after writing though, since my brain is deep in ‘what is the hottest possible thing to happen next for these characters.’ Preferably after, since I write it better when I’m actually wanting to do the things, rather than when I’m done.
This has been my experience. Often times the SCENARIO in my head is hotter than what I actually put on the canvas. So I can get off on the idea but not the actual drawing, if that makes sense. Also the only art of mine I’ve found hot is art that is considerably old because often times I forget I drew it so it feels almost brand new to me.
When I’m in a very specific mood I’ll write a 6 paragraph sex scene embedded in 2 chapters of text, just to make sure it’s not contrived. The process of it requires that I relax and concentrate at the same time in order to be creative.
I have, unironically, watched porn with the sole motivation of getting references for art. It’s a weird feeling when I’m like actually studying the anatomy and not just…watching the video.
I have an entire folder of bookmarks of porn specifically for character design and position reference. I like to make certain that anything I describe is actually possible, which is easy enough for stuff I’ve done personally, but for anything outside, I like to get a reference video of actual humans.
I call it “The Art Block Buster”
I’m left with the inescapable conclusion that I’ve been doing story research wrong.
Happy solstice, Only Person In the Commentariat I Know Is Pagan.
Thanks! And a happy Solstice to you too!
I got several lovely gifts, including two fantasy/romance novels.
Oooooo! That sounds fantastic!!! I would very much like to know how you decorate your tree if that’s no problem 🙂
Happy Solstice!!! 😊🎄🎁
Is “Happy Solstice” not appropriate for non-pagans? Aside from being a day late, that is. Happy Solstice athiests. Also everyone else, no matter what you believe, it was still the solstice yesterday.
Do other faiths celebrate the solstices? I mean, I don’t go “happy 12th of March” or whatever random date it happens to be on the calendar.
Joyous Solstice!
And a very festive Kwanzaa to all! Habari Gani?
OPITCIKIP for short
Research, that’s a good excuse. Gotta start using it…
also covers plagiarism![1]
1. Lehrer, T. “Lobachevsky”, 1951.
I grew up listening to my mum’s Tom Lehrer recordings on cassette and I *adore* seeing this reference in the wild.
My search history is full of stuff on people going into damp caves. That’s not a sex thing, I’m writing a review paper on the effects of anthropogenic activity on subterrian ecosystems and troglodytic species diversity. Though some of the paper titles sound vaguely sexual “Population density, habitat dynamic and aerial survival of relict cave bivalves from genus Congeria in the Dinaric karst by Galvas et al” for example.
That Et Al guy is awfully promiscuous tho. You see him with all kinds of partners.
I think it’s actually just Al. He must be a voraphile. He gets “Et” all the time.
Not saying Dorothy is wrong (because well, she’s not), but also… who WOULD Dorothy be okay with Joyce dating?
I mean, the pool of (available) men is pretty darn low. There’s… Jim? I guess Joyce talked to him for a few minutes.
I mean, the student population on-campus is the size of a small city in itself (45,000+ as of last year). Joyce wouldn’t necessarily have to date within the circle of people they already know.
Except it’s Joyce and strangers spook her out since Ryan.
there’s actually an entire horde of perfectly decent, attractive, single guys with their own nuanced, complex personalities and rich inner lives, just off-screen at all times. if only these gals ever glanced past the strip border!
It’s like that episode of Gumball when they’re forced to acknowledge there’s students who go to the school outside of Gumball’s class.
Nah, there’s only around five guys and about twelve girls or so give or take the brief cameo and the one or two gender non conformers that maybe can fit either category which you think would make dating easier but most likely doesn’t. If Joyce can’t get Joe to work I guess she better start looking into Lyle or broaden her gender pool.
That was a bit after my time; did they handle it better than Ed, Edd, n’ Eddy? (Most of the series took place on one cul-de-sac over summer vacation, then they made a season where the characters went back to school. Problem is they didn’t fill the school out with extras, and there were never any adults in the series at all. As a result the school scenes felt empty, almost post-apocalyptic. The only time they introduced an additional character was the finale.)
But are they in the main cast?
That’s the litmus here.
Actually, Joyce dating Tony would be hilarious, from a multiverse standpoint.
Absolutely.
Sidenote: Tony becoming an active character in DOA would honestly make my day. It’s never going to happen, and it’s honestly funnier that he’s irrelevant, but a man can dream.
Poor kid deserves a break, after everything he went through in the old continuity.
“who WOULD Dorothy be okay with Joyce dating?”
Danny?
Danny’s dating Sal.
Does Dorothy know that?
Joyce and Danny would be an interesting trainwreck to watch given how both of them struggle with both asserting and respecting boundaries, self-worth, and direct communication in this universe.
Who the fuck is Jim?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/jim/
I think he was more of a character in Shortpacked!
he wasn’t a character at all in shortpacked- might have been in it’s walky, though.
Someone you don’t mess around with.
Unless you’re Willie McCoy, then nobody messes around with you.
The way things are going at the other lunch date theres always Walky. I mean, theres precedent.
Joyce x Sayid?
Horny search history? Looks like Willis is about to deliver us an especially naughty Christmas present!!! 😏⛄🎁😈
bonk bonk time for horny jail xD
That is actually the perfect Book 13 title.
I think Dorothy’s main problem is that she isn’t *asking* Joyce how well she knows Joe and how long have they been “friends”.
Which if those are indeed sleep-deprived/exhausted eyes that I’m seeing on her face, might mean she’s not fully operating at 100% atm.
Those are her blush/cheek marks. Most characters have them.
She’s definitely not. She’s definitely under a lot of stress, and she doesn’t let any of her friends know about it, even less why. We the audience don’t even know why yet… But we can hasard a guess. One part identity crisis (two many people questioning her people-skills and chances of becoming President) and second-thoughts about going to Yale (Dorothy’s social life might never have been this good, and she’s made some really meaningful friendships she’s loathe to leave behind). She’s placing a lot of pressure on herself and it’s finally getting to her.
With a heaping dose of trauma repression.
Dorothy’s going about this *exceptionally* poorly.
Definatly, with Jacob and Ethan too there was always a degree of personal likability and trust that had to happen before Joyce began thinking of intimacy. I don’t think Dorothy really wants to consider that angle because it helps her argument to stay away from Joe if Joyce is nothing but horny and a terrible judge of character, and it’s not occurring to Joyce to bring up the prior friendship because right now she’s feeling personally attacked.
Why would Dorothy need to ask when she “knows” already?
On the one hand, Dorothy is right about the horny thing. On the other hand, Dorothy is wrong about Joe(not they she knows that.)
I mean, Joyce IS horny, but she’s not JUST horny
being horny can cause ppl to make mistakes/make irrational decisions but a ‘mistake’ with joe is better than getting drunk at a bar and taking home a stranger lol
I mean, I guess it’s better than doing it drunk – though Joe has talked about using alcohol to get sex, so Dorothy probably still sees that as a possibility. Otherwise, not sure that a mistake with Joe would be better than one with a stranger. At least not a mistake with the Joe Dorothy knew, who wanted to fix Joyce with his penis.
Getting a little tired of hearing about that last bit. I think Joe assumed that Joyce was feeling “at last, out from under my parents’ thumb!” and looking to shatter her repressive upbringing — that she wanted to be “fixed” and would cooperate enthusiastically. Epic failure to read the other’s character, but not evil.
No idea why you’d think he’d assume that. They’d barely spoken. He’d seen her in gender studies, where she was talking about finding a husband. When he asked her out, she asked his opinion on “marital sanctity” and he walked away talking about breaking her in.
If that’s just a failure to read her character, it’s the most epic ever and has to say something about his general attitude.
And I’m getting tired of people in the comments section defending or ignoring blatant misogyny because they happen to like the character and his current arc.
Guess we’re both just going to be tired.
It was super creepy? It’s… Like… That’s one of those things that Joyce and Joe had a conversation about. Dorothy isn’t aware of that conversation. It’s literally just communication issues, so just that fact that they’re both communicating right now is a good thing. They’ll eventually get to the overlooked issue but haven’t gotten there yet, hopefully?
I don’t doubt Joe’s sincerity, but how much do he and Joyce have in common?
Joe’s parents are divorced, and Joyce’s are going through one. That’s what they eventually bonded over.
Their interests don’t really converge, but that could be said of many of the other pairings in this comic. Walky and Dorothy only had cartoons. Becky only started to show an interest in science after she met Dina. Joyce has displayed an openness to working out in the dorm gym when she was interested in Jacob, and Joe showed an interest in her comic strip and went with her to her live figure drawing class. They are both good people with good hearts. Sometimes, that’s enough.
Divorced parents, slowly crawling out of established gender roles, overly co-dependent best friends (though Danny seems to have been getting better on that front). Oh, and basic chemistry.
They wanna touch each other’s butts.
Sometimes that’s all you need.
idk how much she and walky have in common but they were married in an alternate story themselves so you never know lol, you can be decent friends and date without having ‘common’ interests as long as you get along and have chemistry i suppose
“Research” is what I call it, too.
Joyce’s search history like
“male anatomy diagrams”
“ding-dongs”
“boys without pants on”
“butts”
“boy butts”
“boy butts being touched”
“tall boy butts being touched”
“how to delete search history”
“really tall boy butts being touched”
“hand holding”
“How to seduce a sexually active guy”
“Is playing hard to get mean?”
“Pictures of Cats”
“Art Class supplies”
“Do guys find girls with glasses cute?”
“How to draw characters from a 3/4 view”
“Boy Butts”
Upon typing a few of those in to google Joyce (and anyone curious like me) might need to be careful with those search terms. Maybe “man butts” would be a nice refinement if you don’t want the FBI knocking. Also I imagine her history has a lot of male underwear models.
Haha Honestly hadn’t even considered that. Mostly cuz I call people well into their 20s and even 30s boys/girls. Ironically I considered writing “teens” for one but thought “naw that might sound a little sus” not even realizing my solution was worse!
it always makes me wonderi f ppl are put on a list because “bathbombs”/cleaning bomb recipes are a thing now XD
you’re missing like four pages where she tries every version of “tushy/tushie” before copying “Butt” from another site and ctrl+V’ing it instead of typing it.
When I was a kid I used to type in “chests” so my mom didn’t see “boobs” in the search results 😛
bah. when I was a kid, they didn’t just pipe this stuff into your house along with the water and electricity; we had to go out and find it ourselves (in magazines and the occasional catalog), and then hide it under the bed.
I remember that too … walking three miles in the snow in below-freezing weather to the dirty bookstore to get the latest Playboy or Penthouse, then walking back home with my illicit purchase in its brown paper bag concealed under my coat and tucked into the waistband of my pants. And it was uphill and into the wind both ways!!
…and that’s how you ended up with a fetish for historic luggage items?
Roz DeSanto hanky panky tape
She’s seen it.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/scrootoob/
aren’t dingdongs a type of food/dessert? idk how feelings on twinkies tho i imagine she either loves or hates them lol
As long as it is Twinkies in the search history, and not twinks.
For that third-to-last one, unequivocally yes.
You forgot the last line in the search history:
“For the love of god, how do I delete my search history”
Dotty, Becky fired Ethan for not getting in Joyce’s pants
Y’know upon reflection, Joyce might have questionable dating instincts actually.
well, other than extremely high standards i dont imagine most ppl to try to aim for the most seemingly perfect person their first try (tho awkward friendships aside i’d feel more comfortable going on a ‘date’ with afriend i’ve known for five years rather than a random attractive stranger hitting on me at a bar/tinder)
All that stuff in MY search history is because I’m horny. Even stuff like “recipe for fried rice”. I just REALLY like fried rice.
To be fair, fried rice is amazing.
yup yup especially in omelets hee hee 😋
Did you know that it is possible to distil essence of fried rice from fried rice and then add it to fried rice to make it even fried-ricier?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWCbiNPv1yM
Is it possible to learn this power?
Does that make it… fried-rice-fried fried rice?
And can you then distill the essence of this to make fried-rice-fried-fried-rice-fried fried rice?
YOU AM PLAY GODS
elissa_slater_spittake.gif
Refried rice?
i mean, idk about rice, but i remember seeing a chart that was like “pasta cravings mean you’re sexually frustrated” XD:
That explains my love of Fetuccini Alfredo.
You comment is so funny when you know that “fried rice” is a euphemism for having sex in Taiwan.
Go Willis. Book 13. Best. Book. Title. EVER.
Joyce’s denial seems to be getting in the way of making an actual argument in defense of Joe at all if she’s inclined to make one.
what is she supposed to defend against? Dorothy never made any accusations against him.
all she’s said so far is “i don’t like him. you shouldn’t date him.”
also, acting like a demanding judgemental mother is NOT going to go well with joyce.
para 2: oooooooooh, good point. >.<
Does Dorothy know about Joyce’s date with Joe at the very start of the school year? Because Joyce figured out Joe was a bad match then, so the fact she’s now reconsidering might be a better way to get into this than just laying down the law. “Come on, you know Joe isn’t right for you. Why change your mind?” “Um, because I’m not the same person I was then, and he’s changed as well?” “Joe? Change? What?” *Dorothy’s head explodes*
But then, based on yesterday’s strip, Dorothy’s personal investment in this is genuine and suspect, in the sense that not all of her objections are for Joyce’s own good, as opposed to for Dorothy’s own comfort.
50% of everything Dorothy does is for her own comfort.
Dorothy is performing a “move to conclude” one of the less advised methods to take in my old call center escalation handling gig. She assumes she knows all factors and has the answer and is simply stating it to both parties.
Empathy statement followed by probing questions is always the way to go to make sure both parties are listening and that you have the correct information yourself 😉
I hated my old gig but I can recognize moves that quadruple call times and place you in a stalemate and it’s horrible.
Dorothy’s way too personally invested but also she’s willfully decided to somewhat remove herself socially. I think we’re seeing the consequences of these things as she’s somewhat selectively available to her friends. She has alot of academic gumption but her social skills are actually pretty poor and she seems unable to deploy any sort of academic abstraction to compensate.
I actually think Joyce’s sociability could help Dorothy get better at group interactions if they went to more parties and social events together. Joyce is good at approaching new people which is a skill that Dorothy really needs to improve, she just needs to admit there’s things her friends can help her with and not always the reverse.
Very interesting conflict-conversation perspective. Thanks!
Yeah the conversation would go alot better if Dorothy asked Joyce to describe what she sees in Joe personally but looking for good in Joe is a subject Dorothy doesnt want to touch with a 10 foot pole.
It’s not helping that Joyce isn’t admitting to seeing anything in Joe at all, but just going off on how she’s not horny and doesn’t want to touch his butt.
Hey, nothing wrong with “just horny”, Dorothy.
Now if this was the Joe from before, yeah, absolutely, bad idea (IDC how horny you are, fucking some asshole who thinks he can fix you with his penis is a bad idea. It may be my friend’s bad idea to make but I would definitely be on the record as telling them ‘bad idea’). But just horny is fine
I always wonder if joe’s early joe-ness wasn’t just all a front to keep feelings away. he seemed weirdly self aware for someone dense enough to say “My dick can cure you” with anything akin to seriousness.
a front, but also a step down that path. I think Joyce made him realize that kind of joke isn’t just a joke. https://www.dumbingofage.com/object/
Unfortunately Joyce still isn’t at the stage of admitting that horny is a valid reason in itself and she’s been raised to be obedient so she feels she would have to listen to Dorothy if she didn’t have “good” reason to hangout with Joe.
i mean at this point might as well take advantage of the birth control (tho someone like joe i’d assume would have condoms anyways because irl someone who was just a ‘fuckboy’ surface level would have at least one std by now unless he only went after virgins specifically [genetic/passed ondiseases aside])
Also, no way the birth control is effective yet. She probably hasn’t taken anything other than the placebo.
Sure, but when you’re serious sexually repressed, “just horny” can mess with your judgement – either about your own feelings or the other person’s. If Joyce was saying she was “just horny” and wanted to jump Joe’s bones with no further expectations, I don’t think Dorothy would be as concerned.
As you say, she might still think it’s a bad idea, because Joe, but not to the same level as Joyce’s hormones making her think she’s going to have a storybook romance with Joe.
I know Becky said she’d tone down her antagonism of Dorothy, but did Dot really expect to challenge Becky like that and then have Becky come to her aid?
No, she’s just super looking for a convenient way to keep her moral superiority.
She’s trying to take advantage of Becky’s possessive streak towards Joyce thinking Becky will sooner back her than support Joyce getting with Joe. Definitely a low blow from Dorothy, she’s trying to get somebody else involved to get Joyce ‘under control’ rather than admit Joyce won’t always listen to her.
idk if becky knew that jacob already had a gf at the time (tho they probably watched a lot of rom com movies where the protag ‘steals’ their ‘soulmate’ from a ‘terrible’ current gf to where she wouldn’t be surprised) but feels like she’d also encourage it liek she did with jacob (plus it might put her more at ease if joe is with joyce as opposed to thinking he’s the reason that dina needs for sexual arousal)
Didn’t Jacob bring Raidah to some party Becky had organized? Was it Sarah’s birthday party?
Yup. Becky knew the plan.
Not Sarah’s birthday party though. That was after.
The party she threw for Joyce way back where Becky and Dina first connected
Thank you, Dorothy, you have communicated your concerns.
What Joyce does with your input is her business.
THIS
And if that “Does” happens to be Joe, so bet it.
I personally do not think her first time should be with Joe. But it will ’cause that’s max drama right there.
Unfortunately the fact that Dorothy tried to get Becky involved to gang up on convincing Joyce no to pursue Joe suggests she’s not about to stop even though she can’t verbalize any more specific reasons to avoid Joe.
Ignoring the specifics of Joyce and Joe, does “Don’t get involved with [foobar], they are a creep/lothario/cut their toast the wrong way” trick ever work? Do people ever listen?
in real life? of course it does. plenty of folk will trust and respect their friends’ opinions on people that they have more experience with. in fiction? never, nope, not once ever
I think if the potential couple just met than it could work. But when you are talking about someone you’ve known for over a semester already, than no, not a chance. Particularly not in the manner that Dotty is going about it with the “I don’t like him/he’s a creep” shtick. To even have a chance to convince Joyce, Dorothy would have to tell her a story about Joe (preferably with proof) that would change the way she saw him, like that he kicks puppies in his spare time or something.
I mean I’ve only had one occasion to deploy that line for a friend of mine, and yeah it was totally ignored.
A decade later, they’re still happy together, so I’m willing to admit that I was dead wrong.
might depend on the closeness, or the other party ‘doubling down’. or maybe “just get drunk and f*** him to get him out of your system” tho that can still be risky even if you take all the safety precautions (tho i imagine it’d be more convincing if it’s like “this guy is ten years older than you, he’s only interested because women his own age” don’t put up with his bs, and in certain cases i suppose you could get parents involved/authorities even)
I’m now imaging this getting to Becky and Becky surprising everyone by saying “she could do worse”
I’m thinking Becky would just be all “she needs to get it out of her system”, because that’s what Becky did.
Also, a small part of me thinks Becky would project her own insecurities over having done it and assume this is how Joyce flocks back to religion.
Yes, pun intended. I have no regrets.
Wonder if Becky will be the one to tell Dorothy that Joyce and Joe were already on their first date ages ago? I’m really hoping your right and Becky is encouraging if only so Joyce doesn’t have to deal with a triumvirate of concerned mom friends like with the pharmacy trip.
Joyce feels like she’s clutching at straws as far as WHAT she’s mad at Dorothy about. All the other more serious things that she’s angry at her about are probably a helluva lot harder for her to put into proper words in the heat of the moment.
Though I’m sure it’ll come.
I mean, a lot of the reasons to be mad are kind of hard to define. Like from the outside, I’d summarize them as “Dotty has been weird and paternalistic* to Joyce” but that’s hard to sum up into a list of defined things a friend has done
*maternalistic? Dotty’s a lady but I don’t think that means the same thing, even if it’s the gender switched word
I think last two strips a good example of the paternalistic aspect. Dorothy is using her relationship to Joyce’s to demand obedience and summoning her ‘co-parent’ Becky to back her up when Joyce isn’t obeying her. It might be beneficial to have some space from each other for a bit because Joyce is struggling off her authoritarian parents upbringing and having a friend who takes charge of her to this extent isn’t healthy.
yeah definitely. it’s probably hard for Joyce to express that now. like “you keep… trying to protect me! and to help me with medical appointments!”
And we’d know what she means but I’m not sure Joyce would be able to articulate it any better than that, and intentionally or (most likely) not Dorothy could use that intangibility to say it’s nothing
there was supposed to be a “but” or a “though” in that second sentence
“…isn’t healthy”? Dunno. Aversive, yes. So, counterproductive, definitely.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/asshole-4/
I think that’s what’s she’s mad about.
Dorothy’s a little wrong in her methods, understandably concerned though. I’m now more concerned with Joyce being in denial about ALL the things than Dotty telling her off, haha. She’s enjoying herself without letting herself figure out the underlying reasons for what she wants, and that can be kinda self-defeating. Though I’m sure she feels like she needs a break….
Aside from going straight to the “your just horney” argument it’s hard to be completely open with yourself when feeling on the defensive so I can see why she’s looking for vindictive reasons in Dorothy’s accusations instead of real life reasons. That being said her underlying feelings for Joe are something Joyce needs time to process, she asked Joe for time so she could just enjoy the feeling on being wanted and think it through but Dorothy doesn’t want to give her that time.
I mean, Joyce spent like three panels talking about how she didn’t want to rub Joe’s butt all over her face before Dorothy went straight to “you’re just horny”, so I think it’s excusable.
yes! yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyess! do it, dorothy! let the hate* flow through you!!!!!
*i’m aware it isn’t hate, This Is A Joke
Aww, Dorothy does like having Becky around! 🥰
They are teh bestest frenemies 5evar.
Joyce, it’s okay to be horny. You can be little a homewrecker and date gayboys and eat all the Joe ass you want, as a treat.
As a treat.
This is funny to me.
While it’s not revenge, I do think “he’s a bad match, and you’re just horny” was kind of what Joyce said about her and Walky. Just spitballing good comebacks.
Not that Joyce has to win this argument. I mean they’re both wrong, regarding the other’s motives. But what Joyce decides to do is up to her. And Dorothy has failed to make a convincing argument.
And Becky’s a lot more likely to be on board. At least with less arguing. She knows a toned down version of Joe. Her and Dina are on friendly terms with him. Still a bit shallow on the surface, but he socializes with Dina in a way that makes her comfortable. He talked Becky when he was concerned about Joyce’s feelings. We don’t see every interaction, but I think those show a level of mutual respect that he and Dorothy have never had for each other.
Exactly! Dorothy missed all of Joe’s character development because she’s been avoiding him as much as possible. Becky knows he cares more than he may let on.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/darntootin/
Kind of glad Becky wasnt summoned. Dorothy’s trying to use Becky’s possessive streak towards joyce against her by getting a third party involved so Joyce will back down. Even if Becky didn’t back Dorothy up the feeling of being suffocated by mom friends is not something Joyce needs right now and Dorothy needs to accept when she hasn’t made a convincing argument on her own.
Yeah using weight of numbers to berate Joyce doing into what Dorothy thinks is best is entering scummy behaviour territory
Especially using the ‘best friend’ declaration in that context.
Yeah nothing like a little emotional blackmail to drive it home, in a similar vein to Carol Browns “I would die for you”
Mama’s gonna check out all your girl friends for you
Mama won’t let anyone dirty get through
Thought that sounded familiar…
If Dorothy catches Joe in the back seat trying to pick Joyce’s locks, she’s gonna send him back to mother in a cardboard box.
Dorothy thinks Joe needs a dirty woman but she doesn’t know that Joe doesn’t want a dirty girl
What Joe really wants is for Joyce to stick around and maybe they’ll put one down ’cause Joe wants find what lies behind those eyes
what are college relationships even for, if not to fuck around both literally and figuratively, as long as you can do it as safely as possible
Dorothy, I get it, you’re worried. Be there for if/when Joyce gets hurt and needs a shoulder to cry on – Remember, she has been repressed due to the crazy religious community she was from. She does NOT know how to handle horny
You are NOT going to get through to her
Becky couldn’t answer the summoning spell, because Dina had pants euphoria.
Ah yes, of course it was just “for research purposes”.
i’m sure there’s tons of resources now on how to write sex scenes despite being inexperienced and all that lol
I hope that is the actual title of the next book.
I love how Joyce hangups introduce too much noise for her to actually tell Dorothy that she’s been friends with Joe for a while and he’s been a good friend to her when she needed him. Absolutely excellent
Honestly, while it’s not completely off, it doesn’t feel a bit like a contrived excuse to keep them from resolving this.
Never horny, Not Even Once!
Probably should keep Joyce away from any thornbushes!
all this just reminds me of all the relationships I’ve been in where people try to warn me about things I know, as if they know more than I do about a person they don’t care about, and I do. that, and joe and joyce are a fun couple and I just want to see them kiss. I made popcorn and everything, dorothy!
lol i’ve always had the opposite problems when teen friends ask for ‘advice’. tho i never really was like “you know i literally have no experience, right?” or they ask for a ‘second opinion’ even tho they already made their decision and either want them to be agreed with or just not bothering
While we do know Joe has changed, Dorothy has known him much longer and better than Joyce has, so it’s not as unreasonable here as it could be.
I know the Becky thing is there for comedic reasons, but I’m starting to worry about Dorothy’s mental state.
In a fanfic, this would end with them kissing, because Dorothy is jealous because she wants to be with Joyce herself.
…I doubt it will pan out that way here. I also don’t think that’s her motivation. I was just amused by how well the beats lined up.
Joyce really does have a thing for enormous men.
Did the fourth wall just break?
You are just horny (and have no experience how to deal with that in a healthy way) is kindof like an good point, but you are not helping, Dorothy.
This is quite a callback to a similar scene in the ladies’ room during “Guess Who’s Coming to Galasso’s”.
Florence King once described a very enjoyable dalliance with a man she’d known for maybe a day, and then mentioned “It felt different (freeing?) to do something for itself,, and not to get material to write about”.
Writers are like that.
Let’s say Joyce fell for the Hypothetical-Horny-Joe that lives in Dorothy’s mind. They bang, consensually. Joe moves on, Joyce is heartbroken. That might be suboptimal, but it’s hardly the worst case scenario. Joyce has been through enough trauma, that a little heartbreak would not break her.
All that is ignoring the fact that Real-Joe is not the sex fiend he imagines himself to be, and is in fact capable of real relationship, even if it is entirely out of his wheelhouse.
I reread Men are from Beck, Women are from Clark. That Joe is a piece of shit and embracing it. That’s the Joe that lives in Dorothy’s mind. And I think that’s ok. Even if she knew Joe’s trying to be better, and has become better, she’s not obligated to give him the benefit of the doubt. People are allowed to just not like someone.
The problem is the Joyce in her mind is also the Joyce from that chapter. Too naive to tell someone is a piece of shit when they’re only red flags. Current Joyce has a reasonable level of savviness to decide if she wants to get involved with someone who has said he’s only interested in sex.
But does she have the level of savviness to do so when that someone is claiming to want more than just sex? Especially when she’s as obviously horny and crushing as she is.
I’m not sure Dorothy’s opinion of Joe is even as high “openly just wants sex”. I’m not sure my opinion of early Joe is that high either.
I think them fucking would send Joe into an existential crisis.
You are correct. But Dorothy cannot accept sub-optimal easily.
I think Joyce and Dorothy will have a fight and a very bad one. Dorothy is rightly worried about Joyce while Joyce could solve everything just telling her about the conversations she had with Joe and his declaration the day before. But so far she hasn’t and I’m starting to believe she doesn’t want to tell anyone about that. Maybe she considers the memories with Joe theirs memories, a private thing that she doesn’t want to share with anyone.
I think you’re right about the privacy of this relationship. It feels very familiar.
Joyce and Dorothy need to fight this through. They need to scream and rage and use up all the stored emotions until they have to fall back on facts and the disconnect in their understanding becomes evident.
Yes! Let them fight!
Her denials of interest kind of sound like they run deep enough that it’s not just that she wants to keep them private, but that she’s not being honest with herself.
Even if she wants to deny her interest for him, that wouldn’t stop Joyce from defending Her Good Friend Joe against accusations that she knows are based on past behavior. For me Joyce is willfully avoiding to say the reasons for her deep friendship with Joe, while she’s, more or less and in a comical way, talking about her attraction to him. It doesn’t seem like she wants to tell why, for her, it’s a serious thing.
It’s also good for Joyce as a character, to be on the outs with both Becky and Dorothy, and there’s a nice mirror here in Dorothy being worried about Joyce’s sexuality and Becky being worried about Joyce discovering Becky’s newly updated sexual history. Lot of people out here mad at Dorothy when they could just be appreciating the thematic-ness of it all. I’m really enjoying the ride.
damn. im upset that dorothy is extremely in the right here. joe WAS a sex pest and joyce is, well, joyce. while joe HAS changed, even if dorothy knew all that, at the end of the day old habits die hard and joyce is…. well, joyce. lmao.
….but i reeeeally want them to get together lmao
Okay, Carol.
No, wait, Tall Rachel.
Acknowledging reality calls for comparison to Carol?
Or Tall Rachel?
Agreed. Kinda confused as to why that’s in response to someone just saying ‘I think X is right’.
Years from now Dorothy will look back on this as the time she learned to say her piece, then let her friends do what they want to do.
In which nobody apparently believes in sexual freedom or agency, and a college age girl can’t possibly date someone just because they’re both horny.
Agency is when you fuck Joe. Freedom is when you know Dorothy will disapprove and do it anyway.
If that’s all it was, I think it would likely end with a broken heart for Joyce. Dorothy doesn’t see their emotional bond.
Oh joyce
On one hand, I am firmly in the Joe/Joyce camp.
On the other, and maybe this is my conservative upbringing clawing itself back to the surface, but Joe would probably not be the best person for Joyce to have her first time with.
Joe is experienced, cares about Joyce, and has shown a willingness to be gentle with her and let her take her time about things. I can’t imagine a set of criteria more useful for someone’s sexual debut.
I think it’s the conservative upbringing there.
Apparently has good stamina as well
Joe is experienced? Maybe. He has revealed some of his talk about sex is bluffing. So who knows. Maybe the big shalyman twist is surprise, joe was a virgin until Roz and only had sex with her and malaya.
Thats would suck. If that happens then its two idiot virgins fumbling around in bed. Not knowing what the hell theyre doing. By rights, that sex would be awkward and terrible. Her with her fundie cult stuff and him fessing up to a life of lying? Ugh.
It would be great if joe actually has experience and helps joyce tbrough all the fundie cult programming that will inevitably show up. That joe might be able to make it a great experience for joyce. And maybe they turn into the het version of becky/dina. But no real good, strong, sex positive, het male role models here in doa, so i would not be surprised if joe confesses he has only had sex twice and its all a lie and he joins the DoA lineup of male weenuses.
We shall see, in, oh, a year or two…
Danny has mentioned post-timeskip that he “regularly” gets sexiled from his dorm room. That doesn’t seem to indicate Joe’s only ever had sex with Roz and Malaya, at least.
Well then, joe, put on the Barry White and rock her world
That must be one of the best book titles for DoA.
Full stop 😉
There should be one more panel, with Becky’s ears perking up, and her having a strong feeling that there is someplace she is supposed to be, RIGHT NOW!
The next page would be a montage of her trying to get to Joyce and Dorothy, similar to the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition bit.
Liz probably has 1/10th the cult programming that joyce does. When she almost had sex with joe, she freaked out and stopped saying she “almost ruined” herself.
Joyce has way more cult programming and could easy fall into an existential void if she goes through with it.
Dorothy is doing the right thing, trying to protect joyce from that kind of damage. Like walky punching asher to protect his sister. Or when sarah told joe not to break joyce. Good people look out for their friends.
The thing is Joyce could probably benefit from getting help from a cult deprogrammer or someone who can help her look at all the fundamentalist stuff still rattling around in her brain. So she doesnt have a meltdown like liz did.
But outside help doesnt lend itself to a soap opera drama plot, so she’ll ignore all advice and crash and burn her way through joe. I just hope she doesnt hurt joe while shes in so much denial about all the feelings going on in her head. She could do a lot of damage to herself and joe the way shes acting right now.
Joyce is going to date Joe, not jump straight into bed with him. Probably won’t be that long, but it will be long enough to be in the context of a serious relationship. Very different from what Liz was doing.
As long as she is in denial, it doesnt matter if its a day or a month, its going to mess her up just the same.
can’t wait for the twist where we find out Dorothy was one of Joe’s conquests
I know the last panel is a reference to something but i can’t think of what.
Is a reference to the meme where two characters exist simultaneously. Kind of a newer one.
It’s Dorothy attempting to use some of her genre savviness to summon a character from Hammerspace, by saying something that along the lines of previous things that when said has caused Becky to pop up seemingly from nowhere, for comic effect
Dorothy isn’t breaking the fourth wall, she doesn’t know she’s in a slice of life sitcom dramedy, but the thought has crossed her mind
I’m hoping the in universe explanation Becky didn’t show is because she’s not lurking around Joyce as often now that she’s developing a social life outside of her. Unlike Dorothy, Becky could be coming to appreciate that her childhood friend isn’t as dependent on her and Dorothy as she originally thought.
“Cameron has never been in love – at least, nobody’s ever been in love with him. If things don’t change for him, he’s gonna marry the first girl he lays, and she’s gonna treat him like shit, because she will have given him what he has built up in his mind as the end-all, be-all of human existence. She won’t respect him, ’cause you can’t respect somebody who kisses your ass. It just doesn’t work.”
Play hookey with Ferris, Joyce. Get yourself straightened out before you fuck Joe. Dont be like Cameron.
Dorothy is just an un-hip Ferris, trying to save Joyce.
Sex shaming an ex-fundie doesn’t seem like the best way to go about this situation even from Dorothy’s very warped perspeptive.