“God damnit I wish these two would shut the hell up so i can focus on drawing the proper line of action so that my poses stop looking so stiff! God, I screwed up the hand placement and it’s all their fault! I shouldn’t have picked to day to use charcoal”
I imagine that most of the campus has identified the main cast and avoid them. If not when Joe’s list came out, then when it became a mortal hazard to be near Becky or Joyce.
“Why yes Joyce, your near-continuous snark, fundie-residual sexual shaming and hostile put-downs have set the stage for me to open up and share my vulnerability. Here, please crush my heart while you’re in there.”
Tf does she think Joe’s doing, hanging on her every word? I get that Joyce is going through it right now, but she’s acting downright blind to the tone her actions are setting. No duh Joe will respond with jokes and snark.
I feel like thete’s more to their relationship than what’s been shown? Like what prompted Joyce to start texting Joe that one weekend where she went home or if he texted back at any point?
A lot of her interactions with Joe have also felt very defensive lately as well and I’m not sure if it’s due to her expecting him to tease her or if it’s more due to how all her friends have been treating her lately? Most of her more positive interactions have been with Joe since the start of the new term/semester so I’m interested in seeing where this goes…
Maybe this is an insensitive thing to say, but… So what if she’s (probably) autistic? So am I, and I don’t get a free pass to say any old thing I want about people. I get rightly shit down if I get genuinely out of line, and while I don’t think Joyce is actually doing that here, if she were she shouldn’t get that free pass for it, either. We (autistic people) aren’t magical faeries who get to play by our own rules and expect every single neuroboring person to let us do and say whatever, consequence-free. If Joe was truly hurt by her remark (I don’t think he is), he’d be well within any reasonable standard of behavior to shoot back at her and/or leave, or even bluntly tell her she’s crossing a line.
Now, I’m not painting either of them as Bad People, let’s get that straight up-front, but there’s absolutely no reason why she should be allowed to say and do things that are hurtful (I don’t think she’s doing that) or fail to read the room without an expectation of something happening as a direct result. In fact, failing to read the room often has the direct consequence of being removed from the room, and that’s Fine, Actually.
TL;DR, like… I just don’t think being (probably) autistic means she (or we) can just Get To act however and Joe can’t be bothered by it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone you’re replying to said “she gets to act however she wants and joe can’t be bothered by it” – they were pointing out that there are reasons behind what she’s doing and how she’s doing it that explain why she might not be behaving the way some people expect.
Also, she’s not someone who has been working for a bit to understand and cope with her social cue struggles. She’s brand new to this. It has never occurred to her before a couple days ago. She doesn’t get to act however she wants, but it wouldn’t kill people in this comment section to treat her with a little empathy while she finds out where her miscommunications lie and gets a handle on what to apply extra effort to.
I don’t really have a stake in whether you’re right or wrong, personally. That’s not my jurisdiction. I also never said anyone else said anything, but I will now. You yourself called it a “great excuse”, and maybe we’ve just lived different experiences, but that noun has usually been thrown at me as a synonym for “free pass”, with the implication that I ever wanted that pass to begin with. Whether or not “free pass” is the specific phrasing anyone here used, is beside the point.
But if you’re saying that’s not what you meant, I’ll just believe you, because you know what you meant better that I do. I was bristling at a term that’s been used to directly harm me and the attitude behind it, is all.
She knows he does, which is why it frustrates her that he again and again has not let her in. She doesn’t actually believe he’s just a libido with a face, but she’s tired of having to pry for him to share anything with her
When she asked him if he wanted to talk about it in the doorway of his dorm room, he said, “wanna go get a pizza?” Which was both an implicit agreement that he was open to talking about this and also a choice to move it from the most private venue immediately available to them (Joe’s room, not currently containing Danny) to something more public (a restaurant).
Joe set the expectations there. He’s perfectly within his rights to change his mind about what he wants to share, and when, and where, but Joyce’s irritation about the backtracking ain’t coming out of nowhere.
I think “Do you wanna talk about this over a pizza” was the expectation. Joyce said she was coming here and his response to that was “Another time, then?” Sure, he agreed to come with her to this class, but that doesn’t automatically mean he’s shifted on where he’s okay talking about his anxieties. He’s made no indication since coming here that he wants to Have This Conversation Here, and while it’s fine for her to ask, it’s not backtracking on his part to not do something he didn’t explicitly and vocally agree to do. He hasn’t (as far as I can see) changed his mind about the when and where, he expressly set that conversation aside for “another time”. This class is a separate activity.
He doesn’t, and I don’t honestly think she believes he does. She just … really wishes he would share with her. And she’s frustrated that he won’t. And that may not entirely be fair, but it’s also pretty believeable and relatable.
On both their parts. Because damn it, Joyce, you’re in public, in what is probably a fairly quiet room. This is absolutely not the place for that kind of conversation. But damn it, Joe … don’t just blow it off with a casual joke, either. Blow it off with a casual joke, then follow it with a “seriously though, not here, okay?”
If he’s not up to share he should say so then? He suggested talking about his anxieties at a pizza place, and Joyce counter offered that he come with her to life drawing. And he did. He has not indicated to her that he changed his mind about sharing, thus Joyce is frustrated by the deflecting.
Yeah but I feel like talking over lunch is a different vibe than talking while in an art class. You might still be in public but a booth gives you some semblance of privacy.
Im not sure that she does see him as having more depth than his persona. Id imagine she suspects there might be more but is so offput by his casual objectification of women that she immediately puts up her defenses whenever she lets them down and he responds with a defensive joke.
While I agree she hasn’t been very palatable, I’m not miffed here. She heard one of her friends might be going through something and was told she should talk to him. Sought him out and offered to talk to which he was agreeable (he suggested pizza and came with her). She initiated the topic and was immediately shot down with a weird kinda-sexist joke.
On a bad day, “if you wanna act like an emotionally stunted misogynist, fine. You do that,” would also be my response.
On a good day it’d be different, but I also have a fully formed brain. As a teen I’d probably still be a bit bongo
She literally just found out she might have autism a day ago. It’s actually a great excuse AND an explanation because she’s dealing with something right now, isn’t equipped with any of the tools ND people use to deal with NT people, and also isn’t required to laugh at jokes she finds objectionable.
I will simply note that “explore a little empathy” was also the reaction when she tried to be all “AUTISM BUDDIES” with Dina and Dina shut her down.
Yeah, Joyce has been All Up In Her Feelings for multiple valid reasons (and a couple not-so-valid). That doesn’t give her the right to demand to be “Anxiety Buddies” with Joe, then insult him when he doesn’t play along
.
Hey, yo, someone in the autism spectrum here: We do not, actually, get to use autism as an excuse for being little shits.
It is an explanation, sure, but we don’t get free passes.
Hi there! Also on the spectrum and not interested in arguing against a point I didn’t make.
I said she’s struggling with the symptoms, not that she gets a free pass. I said it’s not shocking that she’s struggling, given the fact that she had no awareness or assistance up to this point with recognizing and understanding her own behaviours.
If everyone could stop acting like I’m saying “free pass!” when I really said “understanding!” that’d be great.
Last time I checked that’s not an excuse to hurt people’s feelings, though. You still gotta apologize and try to be better, even if people around you should be more understanding with you, too.
He knows it’s a facade. She knows it’s a facade. He knows she knows it’s a facade. She knows that he knows that she knows etc. He is nonetheless specifically and purposely continuing the facade. If he is going to be hurt by her giving up and admitting defeat on pushing past the facade (at least for today), that is on him.
Joyce: Fine, I will not throw you a birthday party, as you hate them so much.
Joe: *deeply upset at not getting a birthday party*
Comment section: How can Joyce so cruelly take away someone’s birthday party like this? And to go so far as to call him a birthday party hater?? Where is her comeuppance?!
That’s a good part of what led to her mind creating a second her who’s almost cartoonishly good in a “Saturday morning superhero punches bad guys in the face.” kind of way. Yeah it was also to get her violent urges out in a way more acceptable to her but I can’t help but think that there being a her that was by definition good was a factor.
Well Joe of all the times in which you need to be honest, this is one of them. I’m not sure how Joyce will react to your anxieties, but it has to be better than being silent and feeling like shit.
I mean “Eeeeh no thanks” is a valid response to unwished-for prying, Joe. Doubling down on your previous reputation then feeling hurt when she slams you into that box is not your only option.
I think he was just being playful. It’s also a coping mechanism. If you ALSO joke about “haha you’re right I do draw big titty” it feels less like a pointed criticism and more like “haha yeah I suck” which gives you a level of control over any hurt feelings you may have. Which is often times more comfortable than actually being honest with how you feel.
I too worry I draw much too unrealistic titty. Just inexplicable Breasts. Unbelievable booby. Unpredictable chests and above all indescribable mamaries. It’s a serious problem.
Try drawing women with A cups or smaller (they do exist) interacting with people without regards to their gender but more to their humanity. Odd thought I know, but it does happen outside of science fiction.
As it happens I prefer women of A cup and smaller who are of legal age after having relationships with women of F and larger cup sizes most of my life. The trick is making sure they are of legal age.
I think that hit him right in the anxieties. I suspect that he really likes her for her and that he’s worried that she’ll never want to be with him because of his reputation and his well, his past actions, and that all she’ll ever do is see him as a walking libido who could never really have emotions that aren’t just *horny*. That even if he says he has a crush on her or asks her out, she’ll think all he wants is to have sex with her and leave
That’s actually a good question. I mean I can feel horny like an emotion. It comes and goes like emotions and often times reacts to stimuli like an emotion. I honestly can’t think of a reason why I couldn’t describe it as an emotion.
Yes. The encounter with Liz really shook him. He may find it easy to be selfish and shallow, but the idea that he could do harm has become real to him and he very much doesn’t want to be that guy.
People have been talking about Joe changing, but I don’t think it’s a choice (yet). He’s being changed by circumstances and is floundering a bit due to unfamiliar emotions.
Eh, I think he’s less worried about that in particular and more worried that *Joyce* will just think that. I think he’s worried about a lot of stuff; that he’s not good enough for her, that he doesn’t know how to be in a romantic relationship, that he may not be equipped to help Joyce in the ways that she needs.
Honestly, I think the best outcome for them right now would be to open up to each other, admit their feelings, but ultimately stay friends(with tension) for the time being. They both have so many hang ups, insecurities, and anxieties between them that I think they’d be a lot better off if they worked some stuff out on their own first.
Yeah, this is precisely why I generally feel like they’re better off not going there now, even though I think once they’ve both done a little more growing and healing as individuals, they’ll make a great couple. They’ve got a lot of baggage that could derail them quickly and in an ugly way, overburdening a new relationship between two people who have very little experience in navigating romantic relationships to begin with. Shoring up the friendship while they do that growing and healing though—that’s a good way to start.
I’m a person of faith. I believe we could talk about fictional characters, so much enough to make they create life in one way or another. Like an egregore.
Joyce is yet again treating people like sbitthat have done nothing to warrant it. Saying something hurtful to Dehumanize Joe because she doesn’t get her way, whe insulting Amber too. I’m really getting tired of her and hope people start putting her in her place for this crap. I used to like her, but in my opinion she’s lost everything that made her appealing as a character. Her self centeredness is approaching almost Mary levels.
I’ll be honest, I actually never really cared for Joyce much. She’s just…always felt like this to me. And I didn’t really get any enjoyable catharsis at “fundie girl gets trolled by the whole cast” or anything. She has her moments but honestly she only started to appeal to me somewhat recently.
She repaid Joe’s snarky lack of seriousness with the sort of sarcastic retort that if we didn’t have external knowledge of Joe’s psychology none of you would bat an eye at it. Joyce tried to be open with Joe, someone she has issues with, and Joe repaid it by blowing her off. I don’t think she’s being unreasonable.
It’s definitely fine to not be into how Joyce is acting right now, but I’m gonna push back about the Mary comment. Mary tried to drive someone to suicide and then the next day asked if she could ‘have’ the trans girl who pushed back against her bullshit so she could do it to her.
Joyce has not come close to that level of self centred vileness.
Also, Joyce’s more abrasive behavior has really only been like 3 days in-universe, whereas Mary has been consistently awful throughout the entire comic’s run.
She’s following the script. He uses sexual humor to deflect, she goes along with what he’s acting. She’s not insulting Amber, she’s not saying she thinks Amber actually lied. Amber lying is what would follow from what Joe’s pretending here. She’s saying she’s not going to pry, she’s not dehumanizing him. It is just incidental that what she says is the root of his anxiety. That, uh… synchronicity?, is today’s strip’s humor and tragedy.
I was looking for such a comment. I wouldn’t compare her to Mary, but Joyce exaggerates the hospitality of Joe in draining the steam. it’s almost tsundere level
“I’m really getting tired of her and hope people start putting her in her place for this crap.”
The last few months of every single person she cares about suddenly ripping her behaviour apart wasn’t enough for you?
“I used to like her, but in my opinion she’s lost everything that made her appealing as a character.”
Yeah, severe trauma will change a person. Shocking, that.
“Her self centeredness is approaching almost Mary levels.”
OMG yeah, wanting to know a friend’s anxieties and rolling your eyes when he blows you off with a pervy joke is EXACTLY THE SAME as being a hateful, genuinely vicious person who admits to enjoying pushing people she disagrees with to suicide.
Nuance? What’s that? Empathy? Gross. Joyce needs to be “put in her place” because being frustrated is no different than being actively murderous, apparently.
Thank you! Some of the people in this comment section are so determined to see Joyce as the bad guy that it feels like they’ve lost basic reading comprehension
I’ll be honest, I think it’s obviously in jest, nobody is actually gonna stab anybody with a pencil but like…how is one more ethical than the other? I feel like both are just murder, just the method is different.
They… absolutely are, though? It really feels like murder either way, SE as Yotomoe said, just with extra steps in one case. Like, one involves a form of torture almost inherently, but the result is still one more dead person. Not that I actually think Joyce was legitimately or credibly threatening Joe, only a fucking moron would think that, but let’s be real here. Whoever’s finger pulls the trigger, if you’re the reason the trigger was pulled, you’re a murderer.
But that’s a little dark, so that’s as far as I’ll take the murder/extra steps subject.
And that’s the Royal You in all cases, not the Specific You, lest anyone doubt.
Wasn’t Joyce in the group that got kidnapped? And also with Becky when Toedad tried to kidnap Becky the first time at gunpoint? And lets not forget the time she glassed Ryan in the face, who later was sliced, diced and julienned by Amber with his own knife as he tried to get into the dorm to rape and murder her. And all of this between the end of August and Halloween. That’s an awful lot of trauma to process in a short time, and on top of that she’s just discovered she may be autistic and has to process that nugget as well.
I mean someone tried to murder me and it has been decades and I don’t think I’ll ever get over it and he died less than a year after he tried to kill me. I mean it was 21 years ago this past August and I’m still not over “He tried to kill me!”
I hope he opens up at least halfway, that he’s romantically attracted to someone instead of just physically, and he’s anxious about exactly what she’s joking about. It’d at least move their friendship.
Joyce comes off poorly here but it’s worth remembering that last semester almost every time she and Joe bordered on meaningful connection he would blow her off and pretend it didn’t happen. She expects it of him now.
Joyce can’t read his mind and she won’t know how he actually feels, or that this is his sore spot, if he doesn’t tell her.
When she returned to class after the home visit, Joyce tried reaching out to him because she thought it brought them closer and he blew her off. So yes, exactly like that time.
I love Joe, and I love that he’s changing. But he very rarely reciprocated the openness and vulnerability she has shown him. She *wants* to be there for him, he’s just not given her any way to do that yet.
It’s more like she wants him to open up and is sulky when he doesn’t. He’s not obligated to be open just because she wants him to.
He’s a great sounding board. He listens to Joyce about her anxieties and is non-judgmental about her diagnosis. It doesn’t have to be transactional that he needs to open up about his.
For some people it IS important that friendship goes both ways. She doesn’t have to just accept him blowing her off whenever he decides, doesn’t have to accept jokes about titties while she’s trying to connect with him. If he doesn’t want the kind of friendship that she does, no one tied him to that chair or forced him to tag along after she indicated she wanted to discuss his anxieties.
He could have said no (and can still say no) at any point. Until he does, I raise a serious eyebrow at the people in the comments behaving like Joyce is demanding jack shit here.
While it’s true that no-one owes anyone anything, that doesn’t mean those people can use that as an excuse to act in a toxic or anti-social way with no feedback.
I don’t HAVE to tell the truth, I don’t HAVE to be polite, I don’t HAVE to reciprocate friendship, I don’t HAVE to communicate clearly and actively – sure, I don’t, but I’m making a choice, and I’m responsible for that decision and understanding the consequences.
The other person wanting me to be polite or give back the same as them isn’t a demand, recognising that an other person has needs and choosing to not provide them for my own reasons IS my right – but I shouldn’t act like they were demanding it from me, or pretend my (in)actions won’t potentially have negative consequences for myself and others.
Also, it’s worth remembering we have a lot of context and insight into Joe’s actions that Joyce, and insight into Joyce’s that Joe does not.
The person who has the problem is the person who needs to address the problem. By which I mean that if Joyce expects Joe to open up to her as a prerequisite for their friendship when he’s not willing to, she needs to either understand that he won’t and get over it, or she needs to give up on the friendship. She can communicate her needs, but she cannot expect people to bend to them solely for her sake. And when she gets sulky and pissy that he’s not opening up when she wants, the only part of the above that’s she’s doing is the expecting. That’s not acceptable behavior.
She… did communicate that she wanted to discuss his anxieties, though?
IF Joe doesn’t want to open up about his anxieties (and I actually think he does), it’s isn’t on JOYCE to magically understand that he won’t. Like you said “The person who has the problem is the person who needs to address the problem.” If Joe has a problem with opening up about his anxieties then he needs to say so, not bat pervy jokes at Joyce and hope she just ‘gets it’.
If Joe didn’t want to open up about his anxieties (and, again, I think he does, he’s just struggling) then it was on him to say “no” rather than “let’s get pizza” – on him to say “maybe some other time” rather than agreeing to tag along to the drawing class. On him to say “hey, not here” if that’s what he meant.
IS Joyce being “sulky and pissy” or is that just how you personally are reading her tone? Because I took it as an exasperated eyeroll at Joe deflecting with a joke rather than communicating (a thing that he should do, whether it’s about his anxieties or his lack of desire to share those anxieties). And honestly, I’m a little suspect of all the people in the comments today raging that Joyce isn’t good at picking up whatever secret social cues you guys are seeing.
To me the comic looks like a young man struggling to talk about something and a young woman getting frustrated at being given boob jokes when she was hoping to be there for a friend the way he was there for her. The way she personally wants to engage in friendship. The door is right there if that’s not his vibe, his mouth is ALSO right there.
I do, in fact, call insulting someone because they don’t do what you want getting sulky and pissy. Is Joe wrong for making a joke about his anxieties? Maybe, but more than a few people handle difficult situations with humor. Putting yourself into a vulnerable position when you’ve generally avoided emotional introspection in the past is an extremely difficult position, and Joyce really ought to be more understanding that she’s pushing him out of his comfort zone.
And that’s not a secret social cue. That’s understanding his personality and the way he reacts to things in general. I think we also need to keep in mind that Joyce isn’t just pushing Joe here, she’s actively prying. She basically heard that he had a secret and is pushing him to open up because she is curious. Even without the knowledge we have that Joe’s anxieties are related to his crush on Joyce and that she’s probably the most difficult person for him to open up to about them, she owes him a bit of patience on this matter as well as the understanding that he may not want now to open up to her, even if he previously indicated that he did, and he may not be willing to completely slam that door shut.
But where I think you really missed my point is I was responding specifically to your statement that “For some people it IS important that friendship goes both ways.” That’s why I qualified my statement by saying “if Joyce expects Joe to open up to her as a prerequisite for their friendship.” I’m not saying that Joe is giving off “secret social cues,” but why is the onus on him not to do so but Joyce gets a free pass? If that is the requirement Joyce has, she needs to state it and/or deal with it internally.
Nah, she’s saying that if he wants to pretend he’s only a libido with a face, she’ll treat him that way. She wouldn’t be here with him or ask him about his inner life if she really thought that was him.
Do it, Joe. Walk out dramatically. Initiate the melodramatic romance tropes we all crave. Billie and Ruth flew too close to the sun, but you two can MAKE IT WORK!
Joe storms out dramatically, almost close to tears. Joyce wonders what’s wrong, begins to worry, feel insecure and anxious about her actions. Joe books a train ticket. He doesn’t want to bother Joyce anymore. It begins to rain.
This is Indiana. There’s only one train, it doesn’t go where you’re going, and you have to catch it in the middle of the night. A bus is more plausible. And somehow a bus station is more depressing.
That’s what makes the train’s appearance extra weird. The glowing vortex behind the door probably would also set off a few warning lights, and when Joe wakes up in an unfamiliar place after going inside, he’s probably gonna have a few questions. Especially when the little round robot comes up on a screen and starts talking about his feelings.
I don’t think she actually believes that, but she’s twisting the knife a bit because she’s annoyed with them. On the other hand, does it not occur to her this isn’t really an ideal place for this conversation?
Probably not. I’d rather have a conversation like this with an activity that occupies my hands/brain and doesn’t require me to hold eye contact with the person. I’d feel too much pressure sitting down at a table. Not to say that’s the same for them, but assuming Joyce is autistic, it might not’ve occurred to her.
To be fair, neurotypical people can also be oblivious of the environment every once in a while, especially when trying to establish a connection with someone.
What makes it an autistic trait is the frequency of occurrence.
Yeah… it might be time for Joyce to tone down her preconceived notions about somebody. I think it feels pretty hurtful to lots of us right now because we’ve got a lot more insight into Joe’s head & the changes he’s made than Joyce has, and she hasn’t had a lot of time to get used to him actually being decent to her, either.
Joyce isn’t being an asshole. She’s just been somewhat thoughtlessly following an old pattern. And i guess I remember being the kid who wasn’t good at socializing and used to make jokes like this thinking they were funny when really they were just kinda mean to people. I didn’t get when the context wasn’t quite right or it was just putting people in boxes or expressing my own bitterness. I believe Joyce will figure this out and be better about it. I guess we’ll see if that happens before she pushes Joe back out of his moment (day?) of being vulnerable.
So, I guess I’m alone in perceiving Joyce’s response to Joe not as a legitimate put-down, but more of a “Okay, fine, I’ll play your game for now. You’re not a real person who has real anxieties, you’re just a big hol’ hornball who’s never worried about anything, if that’s how you want to play it.”
Just sort of … going along with it in a very “I know what you’re doing, and I want you to know I know” kind of way.
My first thought just from the wording was that she was being sincere in saying it, but it just doesn’t make much sense from what she already knows about Joe.
So yeah I agree that’s it’s a sort of “Fine, if that’s the way you want to be, have it your way.” thing.
That’s close to my reading, too. To me, it doesn’t feel like a genuine put-down, pointed though it may be, and Joe’s expression looks (to me) more like a “Goddamn it, I’m blowing this” sort of thing. Like, I think he’s frustrated with himself for cracking yet another booby joke when his crush is directly offering a genuine conversation. Or possibly he was hoping to have this conversation over pizza like he said, and this environment is throwing him off his balance. I’m not reading a lot of malice or hurt today.
Joyce, don’t you know by now that humor is a defense mechanism? Just because someone doesn’t tell you what their anxieties are, doesn’t mean they don’t have them.
Did she clock that with Becky, though? Or did she just correctly assume Becky is not feeling well, because of all the sht Becky went through. I’m really not sure how good Joyce is as guessing how people feel via behaviour.
I think she knows full well that Joe is using humor as a defense mechanism. There is a difference between telling someone you don’t want to talk about your anxieties right now and denying that you have them despite your previous statements to the contrary. Joe is doing the latter, and Joyce is calling him out on it.
The libido with a face comment combined with Joyce’s facial expressions strikes me as sarcasm, but that’s apparently an unpopular opinion today.
But I don’t see how, “Fine. Amber lied. You’re just a libido with a face.” Is supposed to be read straight here. To me it’s obvious sarcastic hyperbole to indicate to Joe she doesn’t buy it and also is willing to let it lie for now.
I feel like Joe being interested in Joyce is just a reflection of some self loathing. Why would he want to spend time with someone that continually insults him and puts him down for being himself? If there’s something in your life that you want to change, that’s fine, you can work on changing it. But it’s not healthy to seek out your own uncomfortability with yourself in other people. It’s not a supportive environment.
Yeah the list thing was pretty whack, but Joe clearly isn’t a bad person, and it’s not a bad thing to be a flirt and be comfortable with your sexuality. I just feel like he should move on from the cast and spend time with people that aren’t so condescending.
Naw. We know why Joe is into Joyce; he’s said so explicitly. He’s in awe of her ability to change and grow for the better (while simultaneously intimidated by the belief that she’s going to become someone so much better than him that he could never keep up with her, or worse yet, that he’d drag her down with him, if they got together). Crushing on Joyce has nothing to do with self-hatred. It’s kind of the opposite? To Joe, Joyce represents the terrifying possibility that HE can try to become a better person, and that he ought to even try at all.
Joe is feeling a lot of pain from this situation, but he continues to stand by Joyce’s side and pretend that everything is fine this way. I’m afraid Amber will have to hear another desperate conference by a desperate Joe destroyed by the knowledge that he’s the worst. Or maybe Joe will finally open up to Danny?
It seems like Joyce has a similar problem as a lot of the cast, she views people as they were, not as they are. Her view of Joe is unchanging in someways, similar to how many people view her. I just think it’s really interesting how even when she is (rightfully) annoyed at being treated that way, she doesn’t seem to notice she’s doing it to Joe. A lot of the cast views each other as immutable, and expects the others to conform to what they think of each other (Sometimes not even based on what they acted like, but other’s extrapolation of those events). Hence, the tension when that doesn’t pan out.
I really, really don’t think this is fundie judgementality. Joyce isn’t bitter because sex is bad for your soul and how dare Joe sin. Joyce is bitter because she thinks .
Joyce told Joe that she’s always afraid people are objectifying and dehumanizing her – even her friends. That’s why she was upset with his list, because it represented the way he viewed women. Since they’ve become friends she’s basically been trying to take it on faith that he’s not that guy any more. She’s been going out of her comfort zone every time she talks to him. It’s hard and scary, but she wants to believe people can be change and even a guy with a high libido can be safe. So every time Joe makes jokes about how the only thing in his head is sex, that’s what she’s thinking about. How he’s objectifying women and maybe he’ll get one of them hurt some day. How she is never safe.
She’s being really harsh here (I think harsher than she realizes) and Joe doesn’t deserve it. A lot of y’all are prescribing the wrong reason why she’s doing it, though.
Heck, I’m real bad at HTML. That first paragraph was supposed to end with this, hyperlinked:
Joyce is bitter because she thinks men being flippant about sex is a sign of a dangerous mentality — that women are simply pieces in a game you can win.
He wants to tell her his anxieties, but he also does not want to be too vulnerable. And considering his anxieties revolve around her, there’s no way to avoid it.
He’s biting his lip because he’s not sure how much he wants to keep his mouth shut.
I read it as Joyce doesn’t really think that, she’s just manipulating Joe into sharing because she knows he cares about Amber and don’t want to make her a liar.
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“That hurts! I ALSO have a penis”
I’m pretty sure that’s the libido
So, a penis with a face?
… so Neon Green then?
(that’s a deep cut for the Slipshine subscribers)
That second panel Joe face is just PERFECT 😍
Did Joe draw a boobie, upside down?
Gonna say he have some basics of perspective, which is … good.
it’s super effective!
Hmm, is that a worse hit than whah he got during their last date
Yes, soul damage is generally worse than bludgeoning.
Wonder what the rest of the class thinks of all this.
They’re not protagonists, they know to just shut up and mind their business.
“God damnit I wish these two would shut the hell up so i can focus on drawing the proper line of action so that my poses stop looking so stiff! God, I screwed up the hand placement and it’s all their fault! I shouldn’t have picked to day to use charcoal”
I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue!
They’re so focused on trying to get something on the page in 15 seconds that everything else is just background noise.
For some reason I feel like at least one person has started drawing them instead of the model. It just feels right.
I imagine that most of the campus has identified the main cast and avoid them. If not when Joe’s list came out, then when it became a mortal hazard to be near Becky or Joyce.
Maybe the IU administration issues threat level warnings to the rest of the campus, based on how many crises are going on among the cast.
Ha like in Community.
The Willis Gives, and the Willis Taketh Away
He is displeased with us. Who has a goat to sacrifice?
That’s animal abuse, sacrifice a cake. Which is significantly less animal abuse.
Oh please. Everyone knows Willis Sama would be much more pleased with a Kraft Dinner. 😊
That should be spelled DAMN YOU WILLIS.
“Why yes Joyce, your near-continuous snark, fundie-residual sexual shaming and hostile put-downs have set the stage for me to open up and share my vulnerability. Here, please crush my heart while you’re in there.”
Tf does she think Joe’s doing, hanging on her every word? I get that Joyce is going through it right now, but she’s acting downright blind to the tone her actions are setting. No duh Joe will respond with jokes and snark.
Yeah she’s not really made herself out to be a pal or a confidant. Honestly it’s kinda bugging me a lot actually.
I feel like thete’s more to their relationship than what’s been shown? Like what prompted Joyce to start texting Joe that one weekend where she went home or if he texted back at any point?
A lot of her interactions with Joe have also felt very defensive lately as well and I’m not sure if it’s due to her expecting him to tease her or if it’s more due to how all her friends have been treating her lately? Most of her more positive interactions have been with Joe since the start of the new term/semester so I’m interested in seeing where this goes…
It’s almost like she has trouble reading social cues or something.
Like an autistic person might sometimes. But that can’t be right can it?
Maybe this is an insensitive thing to say, but… So what if she’s (probably) autistic? So am I, and I don’t get a free pass to say any old thing I want about people. I get rightly shit down if I get genuinely out of line, and while I don’t think Joyce is actually doing that here, if she were she shouldn’t get that free pass for it, either. We (autistic people) aren’t magical faeries who get to play by our own rules and expect every single neuroboring person to let us do and say whatever, consequence-free. If Joe was truly hurt by her remark (I don’t think he is), he’d be well within any reasonable standard of behavior to shoot back at her and/or leave, or even bluntly tell her she’s crossing a line.
Now, I’m not painting either of them as Bad People, let’s get that straight up-front, but there’s absolutely no reason why she should be allowed to say and do things that are hurtful (I don’t think she’s doing that) or fail to read the room without an expectation of something happening as a direct result. In fact, failing to read the room often has the direct consequence of being removed from the room, and that’s Fine, Actually.
TL;DR, like… I just don’t think being (probably) autistic means she (or we) can just Get To act however and Joe can’t be bothered by it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone you’re replying to said “she gets to act however she wants and joe can’t be bothered by it” – they were pointing out that there are reasons behind what she’s doing and how she’s doing it that explain why she might not be behaving the way some people expect.
Also, she’s not someone who has been working for a bit to understand and cope with her social cue struggles. She’s brand new to this. It has never occurred to her before a couple days ago. She doesn’t get to act however she wants, but it wouldn’t kill people in this comment section to treat her with a little empathy while she finds out where her miscommunications lie and gets a handle on what to apply extra effort to.
I don’t really have a stake in whether you’re right or wrong, personally. That’s not my jurisdiction. I also never said anyone else said anything, but I will now. You yourself called it a “great excuse”, and maybe we’ve just lived different experiences, but that noun has usually been thrown at me as a synonym for “free pass”, with the implication that I ever wanted that pass to begin with. Whether or not “free pass” is the specific phrasing anyone here used, is beside the point.
But if you’re saying that’s not what you meant, I’ll just believe you, because you know what you meant better that I do. I was bristling at a term that’s been used to directly harm me and the attitude behind it, is all.
I wanted to reply, but honestly if you’ve got no stake in it then there’s little point. Have a good one.
Aye, and you as well. 🙂
That makes it explainable, not acceptable.
Dina got to call her on her bullshit. I hope Joe gets a similar chance.
Seriously, it’s like she actually thinks Joe doesn’t have any emotion past “horny”.
She knows he does, which is why it frustrates her that he again and again has not let her in. She doesn’t actually believe he’s just a libido with a face, but she’s tired of having to pry for him to share anything with her
Did I miss something where he owes her that, on demand?
THANK YOU.
In public, might I add?
When she asked him if he wanted to talk about it in the doorway of his dorm room, he said, “wanna go get a pizza?” Which was both an implicit agreement that he was open to talking about this and also a choice to move it from the most private venue immediately available to them (Joe’s room, not currently containing Danny) to something more public (a restaurant).
Joe set the expectations there. He’s perfectly within his rights to change his mind about what he wants to share, and when, and where, but Joyce’s irritation about the backtracking ain’t coming out of nowhere.
I think “Do you wanna talk about this over a pizza” was the expectation. Joyce said she was coming here and his response to that was “Another time, then?” Sure, he agreed to come with her to this class, but that doesn’t automatically mean he’s shifted on where he’s okay talking about his anxieties. He’s made no indication since coming here that he wants to Have This Conversation Here, and while it’s fine for her to ask, it’s not backtracking on his part to not do something he didn’t explicitly and vocally agree to do. He hasn’t (as far as I can see) changed his mind about the when and where, he expressly set that conversation aside for “another time”. This class is a separate activity.
He doesn’t, and I don’t honestly think she believes he does. She just … really wishes he would share with her. And she’s frustrated that he won’t. And that may not entirely be fair, but it’s also pretty believeable and relatable.
On both their parts. Because damn it, Joyce, you’re in public, in what is probably a fairly quiet room. This is absolutely not the place for that kind of conversation. But damn it, Joe … don’t just blow it off with a casual joke, either. Blow it off with a casual joke, then follow it with a “seriously though, not here, okay?”
“Not here” implies he’ll talk about it elsewhere and he doesn’t want to open up to her about this at all.
And he doesn’t have to.
If he’s not up to share he should say so then? He suggested talking about his anxieties at a pizza place, and Joyce counter offered that he come with her to life drawing. And he did. He has not indicated to her that he changed his mind about sharing, thus Joyce is frustrated by the deflecting.
Yeah but I feel like talking over lunch is a different vibe than talking while in an art class. You might still be in public but a booth gives you some semblance of privacy.
Im not sure that she does see him as having more depth than his persona. Id imagine she suspects there might be more but is so offput by his casual objectification of women that she immediately puts up her defenses whenever she lets them down and he responds with a defensive joke.
While I agree she hasn’t been very palatable, I’m not miffed here. She heard one of her friends might be going through something and was told she should talk to him. Sought him out and offered to talk to which he was agreeable (he suggested pizza and came with her). She initiated the topic and was immediately shot down with a weird kinda-sexist joke.
On a bad day, “if you wanna act like an emotionally stunted misogynist, fine. You do that,” would also be my response.
On a good day it’d be different, but I also have a fully formed brain. As a teen I’d probably still be a bit bongo
She literally just found out she might have autism a day ago. It’s actually a great excuse AND an explanation because she’s dealing with something right now, isn’t equipped with any of the tools ND people use to deal with NT people, and also isn’t required to laugh at jokes she finds objectionable.
It wouldn’t hurt you to explore a little empathy.
I will simply note that “explore a little empathy” was also the reaction when she tried to be all “AUTISM BUDDIES” with Dina and Dina shut her down.
Yeah, Joyce has been All Up In Her Feelings for multiple valid reasons (and a couple not-so-valid). That doesn’t give her the right to demand to be “Anxiety Buddies” with Joe, then insult him when he doesn’t play along
.
YEPPPP. Shocking that someone with undiagnosed, unassisted autism might be struggling with symptoms of autism.
Hey, yo, someone in the autism spectrum here: We do not, actually, get to use autism as an excuse for being little shits.
It is an explanation, sure, but we don’t get free passes.
Hi there! Also on the spectrum and not interested in arguing against a point I didn’t make.
I said she’s struggling with the symptoms, not that she gets a free pass. I said it’s not shocking that she’s struggling, given the fact that she had no awareness or assistance up to this point with recognizing and understanding her own behaviours.
If everyone could stop acting like I’m saying “free pass!” when I really said “understanding!” that’d be great.
Last time I checked that’s not an excuse to hurt people’s feelings, though. You still gotta apologize and try to be better, even if people around you should be more understanding with you, too.
You are correct.
He knows it’s a facade. She knows it’s a facade. He knows she knows it’s a facade. She knows that he knows that she knows etc. He is nonetheless specifically and purposely continuing the facade. If he is going to be hurt by her giving up and admitting defeat on pushing past the facade (at least for today), that is on him.
And the insults are on Joyce.
The “insult” is a direct description of the facade he is presenting.
Which, as even her defenders have pointed out, she knows isn’t true.
That makes it WORSE.
Joe: Really, I don’t like birthday parties.
Joyce: Fine, I will not throw you a birthday party, as you hate them so much.
Joe: *deeply upset at not getting a birthday party*
Comment section: How can Joyce so cruelly take away someone’s birthday party like this? And to go so far as to call him a birthday party hater?? Where is her comeuppance?!
…yeah, Tan, that’s not really what this is. She SAID something mean she could have said in a nicer way. That’s it.
It’s why I’m not behind Joe/Joyce right now. Until she works all the residual judgment out of her system, she’s not kind to him.
“That makes no sense. You say I don’t have an anxiety and then immediately say my anxiety!”
No idea why, but I think Amber may have been slightly evil putting these two together.
Amber’s always been slightly evil.
But if she’s evil, then she’s like her father, who she despises with a purple passion.
That’s a good part of what led to her mind creating a second her who’s almost cartoonishly good in a “Saturday morning superhero punches bad guys in the face.” kind of way. Yeah it was also to get her violent urges out in a way more acceptable to her but I can’t help but think that there being a her that was by definition good was a factor.
Well, yeah, she needs to make her own drama, she just stated that a few strips ago.
Amber is smart and Amber is mean?
Well Joe of all the times in which you need to be honest, this is one of them. I’m not sure how Joyce will react to your anxieties, but it has to be better than being silent and feeling like shit.
…what is Joe’s drawing in the second panel supposed to be? I feel like I’m missing something here.
a bangin’ boobie that’s too rocking for this world
a bangin’ boobie that’s too rocking for this world
A titillating titty that is too Metal for the earth.
A bodacious bosom that’s too funky for this galaxy
A radical rack that’s too righteous for this universe.
A humongous honker that’s too swag for this plane.
A miraculous mammary that’s too rad for this realm.
A fabulous funbag that’s too cool for this cosmos.
Slipshine
A nifty nipple too neat for this planet.
I mean “Eeeeh no thanks” is a valid response to unwished-for prying, Joe. Doubling down on your previous reputation then feeling hurt when she slams you into that box is not your only option.
I think he was just being playful. It’s also a coping mechanism. If you ALSO joke about “haha you’re right I do draw big titty” it feels less like a pointed criticism and more like “haha yeah I suck” which gives you a level of control over any hurt feelings you may have. Which is often times more comfortable than actually being honest with how you feel.
Panel 6: That libido’s face looks very anxious.
I’m not sure a room full of strangers is the sort of place a guy like Joe, or… Well, anyone really, would want to openly talk about their anxieties.
In better news, from the looks of it he’s got a bright future ahead of him drawing too-unrealistic tiddy on Deviant Art.
I too worry I draw much too unrealistic titty. Just inexplicable Breasts. Unbelievable booby. Unpredictable chests and above all indescribable mamaries. It’s a serious problem.
Worry not, this is but another opportunity to increase your Porn Lord Power.
And besides, it’s not always the best choice to make your titties 100% realistic anyways. 😉
The only realistic solution is to draw a great many more, in a huge variety of shapes, sizes and situations to really get a grasp of the problem.
Not just to draw, but also to show us so that we can review and give constructive criticism as well as well-earned praise.
Singularly blasphemous indescribably pallid mamaries the angles of which create an atavistic response in ones demented mind.
What’s with these Lovecraftian lady lumps all over the place?
Try drawing women with A cups or smaller (they do exist) interacting with people without regards to their gender but more to their humanity. Odd thought I know, but it does happen outside of science fiction.
As it happens I prefer women of A cup and smaller who are of legal age after having relationships with women of F and larger cup sizes most of my life. The trick is making sure they are of legal age.
I think that hit him right in the anxieties. I suspect that he really likes her for her and that he’s worried that she’ll never want to be with him because of his reputation and his well, his past actions, and that all she’ll ever do is see him as a walking libido who could never really have emotions that aren’t just *horny*. That even if he says he has a crush on her or asks her out, she’ll think all he wants is to have sex with her and leave
I agree (though I don’t think horny is an emotion).
PS.
That’s a cool name and profile picture.
That’s actually a good question. I mean I can feel horny like an emotion. It comes and goes like emotions and often times reacts to stimuli like an emotion. I honestly can’t think of a reason why I couldn’t describe it as an emotion.
Lonely: “I crave companionship and/or romantic affection.”
Happy: “these endorphins are marvelous and I crave the continued production thereof.”
Horny: “I crave the stimulation of one or more erogenous zones.”
It’s, y’know, one of the baser states of mind, but it’s in the emotional sandbox.
He’s afraid he’ll ruin her forever.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/ruined/
Yes. The encounter with Liz really shook him. He may find it easy to be selfish and shallow, but the idea that he could do harm has become real to him and he very much doesn’t want to be that guy.
People have been talking about Joe changing, but I don’t think it’s a choice (yet). He’s being changed by circumstances and is floundering a bit due to unfamiliar emotions.
Eh, I think he’s less worried about that in particular and more worried that *Joyce* will just think that. I think he’s worried about a lot of stuff; that he’s not good enough for her, that he doesn’t know how to be in a romantic relationship, that he may not be equipped to help Joyce in the ways that she needs.
Honestly, I think the best outcome for them right now would be to open up to each other, admit their feelings, but ultimately stay friends(with tension) for the time being. They both have so many hang ups, insecurities, and anxieties between them that I think they’d be a lot better off if they worked some stuff out on their own first.
Yeah, this is precisely why I generally feel like they’re better off not going there now, even though I think once they’ve both done a little more growing and healing as individuals, they’ll make a great couple. They’ve got a lot of baggage that could derail them quickly and in an ugly way, overburdening a new relationship between two people who have very little experience in navigating romantic relationships to begin with. Shoring up the friendship while they do that growing and healing though—that’s a good way to start.
The thing with Liz was just an added twist on top of his baseline of “I’m doomed to be like my dad and cheat on and hurt anyone I get close to.”
Move on, Joe.
Date someone else like Amber ala Clueless.
Like Amber aka the sister he secretly always wanted to have?
Clueless has the foster siblings hooking up, which is why I made the reference.
Based on Joe’s drawing I feel like this was a prime opportunity for the oversized comedy prop tag
Amber didn’t lied. The problem, Joyce, is his anxiety really envolves his libido. Because he likes you.
Unfortunately she can’t hear us. Or I guess fortunately cuz we say a lot of weird shit and have a bizarre amount of insight into her personal life.
I’m a person of faith. I believe we could talk about fictional characters, so much enough to make they create life in one way or another. Like an egregore.
This comment section does sometimes sound like the greek choir inside my own head.
DAMN JOYCE
Joyce is yet again treating people like sbitthat have done nothing to warrant it. Saying something hurtful to Dehumanize Joe because she doesn’t get her way, whe insulting Amber too. I’m really getting tired of her and hope people start putting her in her place for this crap. I used to like her, but in my opinion she’s lost everything that made her appealing as a character. Her self centeredness is approaching almost Mary levels.
I’ll be honest, I actually never really cared for Joyce much. She’s just…always felt like this to me. And I didn’t really get any enjoyable catharsis at “fundie girl gets trolled by the whole cast” or anything. She has her moments but honestly she only started to appeal to me somewhat recently.
She repaid Joe’s snarky lack of seriousness with the sort of sarcastic retort that if we didn’t have external knowledge of Joe’s psychology none of you would bat an eye at it. Joyce tried to be open with Joe, someone she has issues with, and Joe repaid it by blowing her off. I don’t think she’s being unreasonable.
It’s definitely fine to not be into how Joyce is acting right now, but I’m gonna push back about the Mary comment. Mary tried to drive someone to suicide and then the next day asked if she could ‘have’ the trans girl who pushed back against her bullshit so she could do it to her.
Joyce has not come close to that level of self centred vileness.
Also, Joyce’s more abrasive behavior has really only been like 3 days in-universe, whereas Mary has been consistently awful throughout the entire comic’s run.
Joyce has been in a generally bitter mood recently, for a lot of reasons, so she hasn’t exactly been the nicest person.
Mary is a cruel hateful sadist who’s main positive quality is that she isn’t competent enough to be a serious threat on her own
These are not even close to ethically equivalent
She’s following the script. He uses sexual humor to deflect, she goes along with what he’s acting. She’s not insulting Amber, she’s not saying she thinks Amber actually lied. Amber lying is what would follow from what Joe’s pretending here. She’s saying she’s not going to pry, she’s not dehumanizing him. It is just incidental that what she says is the root of his anxiety. That, uh… synchronicity?, is today’s strip’s humor and tragedy.
I’ve said it before but Joyce is a great person to have in a crisis, because she will fight tooth and nail and punch out a dad for you.
She’s an utter pill in day-to-day interactions.
I was looking for such a comment. I wouldn’t compare her to Mary, but Joyce exaggerates the hospitality of Joe in draining the steam. it’s almost tsundere level
“I’m really getting tired of her and hope people start putting her in her place for this crap.”
The last few months of every single person she cares about suddenly ripping her behaviour apart wasn’t enough for you?
“I used to like her, but in my opinion she’s lost everything that made her appealing as a character.”
Yeah, severe trauma will change a person. Shocking, that.
“Her self centeredness is approaching almost Mary levels.”
OMG yeah, wanting to know a friend’s anxieties and rolling your eyes when he blows you off with a pervy joke is EXACTLY THE SAME as being a hateful, genuinely vicious person who admits to enjoying pushing people she disagrees with to suicide.
Nuance? What’s that? Empathy? Gross. Joyce needs to be “put in her place” because being frustrated is no different than being actively murderous, apparently.
Thank you! Some of the people in this comment section are so determined to see Joyce as the bad guy that it feels like they’ve lost basic reading comprehension
But she literally threatened to stab him in the previous strip! With a pencil, no less!
Attempting murder and pushing to suicide are not ethically equivalent.
I’ll be honest, I think it’s obviously in jest, nobody is actually gonna stab anybody with a pencil but like…how is one more ethical than the other? I feel like both are just murder, just the method is different.
They… absolutely are, though? It really feels like murder either way, SE as Yotomoe said, just with extra steps in one case. Like, one involves a form of torture almost inherently, but the result is still one more dead person. Not that I actually think Joyce was legitimately or credibly threatening Joe, only a fucking moron would think that, but let’s be real here. Whoever’s finger pulls the trigger, if you’re the reason the trigger was pulled, you’re a murderer.
But that’s a little dark, so that’s as far as I’ll take the murder/extra steps subject.
And that’s the Royal You in all cases, not the Specific You, lest anyone doubt.
Murder + torture is worse than just murder. The final result may be the same, but the moral implications about the perpetrator are way different.
I disagree, and also, what a strange response for you to make.
Wasn’t Joyce in the group that got kidnapped? And also with Becky when Toedad tried to kidnap Becky the first time at gunpoint? And lets not forget the time she glassed Ryan in the face, who later was sliced, diced and julienned by Amber with his own knife as he tried to get into the dorm to rape and murder her. And all of this between the end of August and Halloween. That’s an awful lot of trauma to process in a short time, and on top of that she’s just discovered she may be autistic and has to process that nugget as well.
I mean someone tried to murder me and it has been decades and I don’t think I’ll ever get over it and he died less than a year after he tried to kill me. I mean it was 21 years ago this past August and I’m still not over “He tried to kill me!”
WHOA WHAT
I know they are both going through the growing pains of becoming adults, so I try to give them as much slack as possible.
But I’m just not liking Joyce lately.
I hope he opens up at least halfway, that he’s romantically attracted to someone instead of just physically, and he’s anxious about exactly what she’s joking about. It’d at least move their friendship.
My libido has a face, it’s J-O-E
My libido has a second name, it’s R-O-S-E-N-T-H-A-L
Oh boy. Right in the anxieties!
It’s hard being a libido with a face.
A critical hit, but not in great the “holy shit I think I like this person” Nishikata to Takagi way.
Give a little bit here Joe, she knows you’re an actual person, YOU know SHE knows you’re an actual person.
Joyce comes off poorly here but it’s worth remembering that last semester almost every time she and Joe bordered on meaningful connection he would blow her off and pretend it didn’t happen. She expects it of him now.
Joyce can’t read his mind and she won’t know how he actually feels, or that this is his sore spot, if he doesn’t tell her.
was thinking this too!!
You mean like when she was visiting home and regularly texted him about her anxieties?
Or when he purposely saved a plain doughnut just for her?
What a monster, that Joe.
When she returned to class after the home visit, Joyce tried reaching out to him because she thought it brought them closer and he blew her off. So yes, exactly like that time.
I love Joe, and I love that he’s changing. But he very rarely reciprocated the openness and vulnerability she has shown him. She *wants* to be there for him, he’s just not given her any way to do that yet.
It’s more like she wants him to open up and is sulky when he doesn’t. He’s not obligated to be open just because she wants him to.
He’s a great sounding board. He listens to Joyce about her anxieties and is non-judgmental about her diagnosis. It doesn’t have to be transactional that he needs to open up about his.
For some people it IS important that friendship goes both ways. She doesn’t have to just accept him blowing her off whenever he decides, doesn’t have to accept jokes about titties while she’s trying to connect with him. If he doesn’t want the kind of friendship that she does, no one tied him to that chair or forced him to tag along after she indicated she wanted to discuss his anxieties.
He could have said no (and can still say no) at any point. Until he does, I raise a serious eyebrow at the people in the comments behaving like Joyce is demanding jack shit here.
Thanks, yeah, this needed to be said.
While it’s true that no-one owes anyone anything, that doesn’t mean those people can use that as an excuse to act in a toxic or anti-social way with no feedback.
I don’t HAVE to tell the truth, I don’t HAVE to be polite, I don’t HAVE to reciprocate friendship, I don’t HAVE to communicate clearly and actively – sure, I don’t, but I’m making a choice, and I’m responsible for that decision and understanding the consequences.
The other person wanting me to be polite or give back the same as them isn’t a demand, recognising that an other person has needs and choosing to not provide them for my own reasons IS my right – but I shouldn’t act like they were demanding it from me, or pretend my (in)actions won’t potentially have negative consequences for myself and others.
Also, it’s worth remembering we have a lot of context and insight into Joe’s actions that Joyce, and insight into Joyce’s that Joe does not.
The person who has the problem is the person who needs to address the problem. By which I mean that if Joyce expects Joe to open up to her as a prerequisite for their friendship when he’s not willing to, she needs to either understand that he won’t and get over it, or she needs to give up on the friendship. She can communicate her needs, but she cannot expect people to bend to them solely for her sake. And when she gets sulky and pissy that he’s not opening up when she wants, the only part of the above that’s she’s doing is the expecting. That’s not acceptable behavior.
She… did communicate that she wanted to discuss his anxieties, though?
IF Joe doesn’t want to open up about his anxieties (and I actually think he does), it’s isn’t on JOYCE to magically understand that he won’t. Like you said “The person who has the problem is the person who needs to address the problem.” If Joe has a problem with opening up about his anxieties then he needs to say so, not bat pervy jokes at Joyce and hope she just ‘gets it’.
If Joe didn’t want to open up about his anxieties (and, again, I think he does, he’s just struggling) then it was on him to say “no” rather than “let’s get pizza” – on him to say “maybe some other time” rather than agreeing to tag along to the drawing class. On him to say “hey, not here” if that’s what he meant.
IS Joyce being “sulky and pissy” or is that just how you personally are reading her tone? Because I took it as an exasperated eyeroll at Joe deflecting with a joke rather than communicating (a thing that he should do, whether it’s about his anxieties or his lack of desire to share those anxieties). And honestly, I’m a little suspect of all the people in the comments today raging that Joyce isn’t good at picking up whatever secret social cues you guys are seeing.
To me the comic looks like a young man struggling to talk about something and a young woman getting frustrated at being given boob jokes when she was hoping to be there for a friend the way he was there for her. The way she personally wants to engage in friendship. The door is right there if that’s not his vibe, his mouth is ALSO right there.
I do, in fact, call insulting someone because they don’t do what you want getting sulky and pissy. Is Joe wrong for making a joke about his anxieties? Maybe, but more than a few people handle difficult situations with humor. Putting yourself into a vulnerable position when you’ve generally avoided emotional introspection in the past is an extremely difficult position, and Joyce really ought to be more understanding that she’s pushing him out of his comfort zone.
And that’s not a secret social cue. That’s understanding his personality and the way he reacts to things in general. I think we also need to keep in mind that Joyce isn’t just pushing Joe here, she’s actively prying. She basically heard that he had a secret and is pushing him to open up because she is curious. Even without the knowledge we have that Joe’s anxieties are related to his crush on Joyce and that she’s probably the most difficult person for him to open up to about them, she owes him a bit of patience on this matter as well as the understanding that he may not want now to open up to her, even if he previously indicated that he did, and he may not be willing to completely slam that door shut.
But where I think you really missed my point is I was responding specifically to your statement that “For some people it IS important that friendship goes both ways.” That’s why I qualified my statement by saying “if Joyce expects Joe to open up to her as a prerequisite for their friendship.” I’m not saying that Joe is giving off “secret social cues,” but why is the onus on him not to do so but Joyce gets a free pass? If that is the requirement Joyce has, she needs to state it and/or deal with it internally.
God DAMN Joyce! Stop it!
i *think* what’s happening is that joyce believes joe will push her away like he has before, and so she just prepares for him to shut her out
Even though he reacts kindly when Joyce opened up about nearly anything else, including just earlier in the day about her diagnosis.
Nah, she’s saying that if he wants to pretend he’s only a libido with a face, she’ll treat him that way. She wouldn’t be here with him or ask him about his inner life if she really thought that was him.
Do it, Joe. Walk out dramatically. Initiate the melodramatic romance tropes we all crave. Billie and Ruth flew too close to the sun, but you two can MAKE IT WORK!
Joe storms out dramatically, almost close to tears. Joyce wonders what’s wrong, begins to worry, feel insecure and anxious about her actions. Joe books a train ticket. He doesn’t want to bother Joyce anymore. It begins to rain.
It’s the rain.
This is Indiana. There’s only one train, it doesn’t go where you’re going, and you have to catch it in the middle of the night. A bus is more plausible. And somehow a bus station is more depressing.
That’s what makes the train’s appearance extra weird. The glowing vortex behind the door probably would also set off a few warning lights, and when Joe wakes up in an unfamiliar place after going inside, he’s probably gonna have a few questions. Especially when the little round robot comes up on a screen and starts talking about his feelings.
Now where do I find that crossover fanfiction…
My flash drive, that’s where.
Did…did Joe draw a giant tit with a tiny woman hiding behind it? WTF?
Reminds me of an artist talking about the difference between “girl has boobs” and “boobs has girl” in art.
I interpreted it as a tiny Joe-like person admiring how rockin’ the boobie is.
Life drawing class doesn’t seem the place to bring up one’s anxieties.
If your wondering why too public; to much going on;and uncomfortable furniture that doesn’t not lend itself to conversation.
A pizza place while public has booths which allow for more direct interaction.
[TF2 crit sound dot wav]
Joe, don’t blow this.
Harsh.
I don’t think she actually believes that, but she’s twisting the knife a bit because she’s annoyed with them. On the other hand, does it not occur to her this isn’t really an ideal place for this conversation?
Probably not. I’d rather have a conversation like this with an activity that occupies my hands/brain and doesn’t require me to hold eye contact with the person. I’d feel too much pressure sitting down at a table. Not to say that’s the same for them, but assuming Joyce is autistic, it might not’ve occurred to her.
To be fair, neurotypical people can also be oblivious of the environment every once in a while, especially when trying to establish a connection with someone.
What makes it an autistic trait is the frequency of occurrence.
Yeah… it might be time for Joyce to tone down her preconceived notions about somebody. I think it feels pretty hurtful to lots of us right now because we’ve got a lot more insight into Joe’s head & the changes he’s made than Joyce has, and she hasn’t had a lot of time to get used to him actually being decent to her, either.
Joyce isn’t being an asshole. She’s just been somewhat thoughtlessly following an old pattern. And i guess I remember being the kid who wasn’t good at socializing and used to make jokes like this thinking they were funny when really they were just kinda mean to people. I didn’t get when the context wasn’t quite right or it was just putting people in boxes or expressing my own bitterness. I believe Joyce will figure this out and be better about it. I guess we’ll see if that happens before she pushes Joe back out of his moment (day?) of being vulnerable.
So, I guess I’m alone in perceiving Joyce’s response to Joe not as a legitimate put-down, but more of a “Okay, fine, I’ll play your game for now. You’re not a real person who has real anxieties, you’re just a big hol’ hornball who’s never worried about anything, if that’s how you want to play it.”
Just sort of … going along with it in a very “I know what you’re doing, and I want you to know I know” kind of way.
“a big ‘ol hornball” not a big hol’ hornball. I don’t even know what that would mean, but it sounds vaguely uncomfortable.
Yeah, I agree. She seems more done with his facade than anything else and is going, “Fine, whatever”
My first thought just from the wording was that she was being sincere in saying it, but it just doesn’t make much sense from what she already knows about Joe.
So yeah I agree that’s it’s a sort of “Fine, if that’s the way you want to be, have it your way.” thing.
That’s close to my reading, too. To me, it doesn’t feel like a genuine put-down, pointed though it may be, and Joe’s expression looks (to me) more like a “Goddamn it, I’m blowing this” sort of thing. Like, I think he’s frustrated with himself for cracking yet another booby joke when his crush is directly offering a genuine conversation. Or possibly he was hoping to have this conversation over pizza like he said, and this environment is throwing him off his balance. I’m not reading a lot of malice or hurt today.
Nope, that’s exactly my read on it.
Honestly? I feel like Joyce can mean it the way you said it, and Joe can still receive it as a legit put-down.
As a wiser person than me said, “The failure mode of ‘clever’ is ‘asshole’.”
Yoink.
That one’s going into my text file of wisdom!
Joyce has been taking a fair amount of jobs at Joe today, like in biology class. So it feels like a consistent issue.
I also interpreted it this way. How I read it, she is basically re-stating the impression he’s giving.
Call him out, Joyce! You want people to know you’re a human being, you gotta open up about what makes you human.
Sorry Joe but the brother humour you developed for interacting with Amber just won’t work on Joyce.
The facial expressions on Joyce are spot on. It’s so clear what she’s conveying.
Oooooof
That’s exactly what you wanted, right Joe?
Except when he gets it, he doesn’t want it anymore…
So, he’s a teenager?
Or like thirty cats wearing a teenager skin disguise.
I’m not convinced there’d be a noticeable difference.
Joyce, don’t you know by now that humor is a defense mechanism? Just because someone doesn’t tell you what their anxieties are, doesn’t mean they don’t have them.
I think she legit does not clock that, which is understandable.
Her best friend was Becky. She absolutely knows that humour can be a defense mechanism.
Did she clock that with Becky, though? Or did she just correctly assume Becky is not feeling well, because of all the sht Becky went through. I’m really not sure how good Joyce is as guessing how people feel via behaviour.
I think she knows full well that Joe is using humor as a defense mechanism. There is a difference between telling someone you don’t want to talk about your anxieties right now and denying that you have them despite your previous statements to the contrary. Joe is doing the latter, and Joyce is calling him out on it.
Jeez, Joyce; Joe just told you that you really hurt his feelings just now. And you hurt him some more.
That fundie habit of being judgmental.
Here’s hoping the next words out of his mouth are about how he doesn’t want to be just a libido with a face
That’s how Joyce got the idea of drawing The Adventures of LibFace, the Indomitable Sex Monster.
(A slightly NSFW superhero comic).
The libido with a face comment combined with Joyce’s facial expressions strikes me as sarcasm, but that’s apparently an unpopular opinion today.
But I don’t see how, “Fine. Amber lied. You’re just a libido with a face.” Is supposed to be read straight here. To me it’s obvious sarcastic hyperbole to indicate to Joe she doesn’t buy it and also is willing to let it lie for now.
I feel like Joe being interested in Joyce is just a reflection of some self loathing. Why would he want to spend time with someone that continually insults him and puts him down for being himself? If there’s something in your life that you want to change, that’s fine, you can work on changing it. But it’s not healthy to seek out your own uncomfortability with yourself in other people. It’s not a supportive environment.
Yeah the list thing was pretty whack, but Joe clearly isn’t a bad person, and it’s not a bad thing to be a flirt and be comfortable with your sexuality. I just feel like he should move on from the cast and spend time with people that aren’t so condescending.
Naw. We know why Joe is into Joyce; he’s said so explicitly. He’s in awe of her ability to change and grow for the better (while simultaneously intimidated by the belief that she’s going to become someone so much better than him that he could never keep up with her, or worse yet, that he’d drag her down with him, if they got together). Crushing on Joyce has nothing to do with self-hatred. It’s kind of the opposite? To Joe, Joyce represents the terrifying possibility that HE can try to become a better person, and that he ought to even try at all.
big talk coming from a walking bastardized bible turned red pill redditor.
Joe is feeling a lot of pain from this situation, but he continues to stand by Joyce’s side and pretend that everything is fine this way. I’m afraid Amber will have to hear another desperate conference by a desperate Joe destroyed by the knowledge that he’s the worst. Or maybe Joe will finally open up to Danny?
I know Joyce doesnt do social cues but fuck that deflection was in big neon signs and she missed it
I don’t think she missed it.
If anything, she seems to be rolling with it.
It seems like Joyce has a similar problem as a lot of the cast, she views people as they were, not as they are. Her view of Joe is unchanging in someways, similar to how many people view her. I just think it’s really interesting how even when she is (rightfully) annoyed at being treated that way, she doesn’t seem to notice she’s doing it to Joe. A lot of the cast views each other as immutable, and expects the others to conform to what they think of each other (Sometimes not even based on what they acted like, but other’s extrapolation of those events). Hence, the tension when that doesn’t pan out.
I really, really don’t think this is fundie judgementality. Joyce isn’t bitter because sex is bad for your soul and how dare Joe sin. Joyce is bitter because she thinks .
Joyce told Joe that she’s always afraid people are objectifying and dehumanizing her – even her friends. That’s why she was upset with his list, because it represented the way he viewed women. Since they’ve become friends she’s basically been trying to take it on faith that he’s not that guy any more. She’s been going out of her comfort zone every time she talks to him. It’s hard and scary, but she wants to believe people can be change and even a guy with a high libido can be safe. So every time Joe makes jokes about how the only thing in his head is sex, that’s what she’s thinking about. How he’s objectifying women and maybe he’ll get one of them hurt some day. How she is never safe.
She’s being really harsh here (I think harsher than she realizes) and Joe doesn’t deserve it. A lot of y’all are prescribing the wrong reason why she’s doing it, though.
Heck, I’m real bad at HTML. That first paragraph was supposed to end with this, hyperlinked:
Joyce is bitter because she thinks men being flippant about sex is a sign of a dangerous mentality — that women are simply pieces in a game you can win.
Yeah, but a face you want to sit on, right, Joyce?
I don’t think she’s even aware of that position, but the second she learns about it, Joe’s gonna have a real weird night.
Weird and fun, I bet.
Hovering my mouse over the comic says “Critical hit” A very nice touch and…. ouch…
BTW is Joe biting his lip because he’s horny or am I misreading expressions? 😅
definitely not a horny face. not sure exactly how I’d describe it, more like just got an emotional gut-punch face
He wants to tell her his anxieties, but he also does not want to be too vulnerable. And considering his anxieties revolve around her, there’s no way to avoid it.
He’s biting his lip because he’s not sure how much he wants to keep his mouth shut.
Bingo. If you weren’t raised to be manly, it’s hard to understand how unthinkable vulnerability is.
I read it as Joyce doesn’t really think that, she’s just manipulating Joe into sharing because she knows he cares about Amber and don’t want to make her a liar.