Yes! I very much prefer the RWBY style of naming ships over just mashing names together (though occasionally a pair of names sounds too good not to).
If I were clever I would make a pun out of them both being leaders (president and cheerleader) or Jennifer’s nickname being Billie and presidents sign bills…
I like the portmanteau variety if there’s a very obviously good one (or someone can eventually come up with a very good one) like Ronance but otherwise I do prefer the theme names instead.
This is like saying the Hindenburg’s name doesn’t really matter because it went down in flames.
It’s possible to go down in flames so magnificently that your name is remembered forever in history.
Well, do people remember the Hindenburg for the crash itself, or for Herbert Morrison? If Morrison didn’t lose his shit, more than likely the Hindenburg would just be a footnote in history, that most people would glance over.
Plays “Utah Saints” on the hacked Muzak:
“I believe in me. I believe in you.
I believe in me. I believe in you.
I believe in me. I believe in you.
Don’t you know I believe in love.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr3Eync1MSk
In the Walkyverse she has two dogs. The first one introduced was backed Danny, but then later when they visited her parents we were introduced to her much older dog Walky
If they demand it maybe. Dorothy may finally be ready to … gasp … assert herself. After seeing that violent outburst at Ruth, I think maybe what Billie wants is good, old fashioned, New York cabbie shouting match. Tell her what you really think, Dorothy.
Oh my lord. Dorothy, there’s Mom Friend Status and then there’s teleporting in to lecture one of your friend’s other random friends for being a deadbeat Dad.
(This should not be read as angry, I find this strip hilarious.)
For the most part 😛 The Yotoverse which is only slightly hornier than the original DOA. Also I probably have given Walky too much action though. I’m neglecting the other boys!
Not quite. Go back a bit. What got Joyce to the clinic where she got her diagnosis in the first place? Jennifer talked a lot of shit, to Dorothy and to Joyce, and the boomerang’s come back around.
hopefully she gets jennifer to help out tho considering she’s ‘so busy’ i would’ve expected her to get back to her yale stuff unless jen happened to be in her path on the way back
I think she may have realised the medication doing nothing yet means going to the pharmacist was kind of unnecessary in the immediate term and is mad that Jennifer accidentally may have done a better job on this one
Good thing she didn’t run into Roz I guess
we don’t know if Joyce has even taken the medication yet. how would it have had any effect at all? she’s pretty clearly mad at jen for insulting her to her face, like, a day ago.
It was mentioned as they left the pharmacy that since Joyce is currently on her period she’ll be starting with placebos, so even if she started taking them the moment she walked out the door the medication won’t actually help with the pain until the next time around.
I think that this is more about Dorothy feeling threatened about her role as the caretaker friend since Joyce got grouchy about her helping after having accepted Jennifer’s help earlier, but it is a fair point that they probably could’ve saved the pharmacy visit for when Joyce was feeling better and it wouldn’t have changed the effectiveness of the meds.
I think it’s more about Jennifer barging in getting mad about Dorothy not “solving” Joyce’s problems, taking one step to help and leaving Dorothy to deal with the rest.
The “maternal vulture” thing? I guess that’s an insult but it’s pretty tame in terms of how these folks talk to each other. Honestly I kind of mentally put that aside, Jennifer being the only one who didn’t assume Joyce taking birth control had to be the biggest deal ever took up much more brainspace around that interaction for me.
Oh don’t get me wrong, assertive is not bad at all. I find I’m more attracted to women that, make that first step in asking you out, or she makes sure you spend time together just doing small things. A woman who knows what she wants is a very attractive trait.
I’d like to know if this is something she already had before and it made her attracted to Ruth or was it something Ruth instilled in her with her behaviour…
Haha, go Dorothy! She’s just taken a load of undeserved shit from Joyce and instead of escalating with someone who is clearly not herself, she dumped it right where it belonged. She was doing a great job just putting up with Joyce, waiting for her to recover, biding her time for a more opportune time to Have A Talk until Billie showed up out of nowhere to berate her.
Is this the first time (after dumping Dan) that we’e seen her assert herself? Just imagine all the pent up anger she saved up from never lashing out at Becky with, haha.
She wasn’t waiting til Joyce recovered to have a talk with her, if she were she would have told Jennifer when Jennifer asked why nothing was being done
She was explicitly not doing it because she felt it would be hard
Consider how difficult it was to get Joyce to get her eyes checked.
And based on that, and how Joyce has reacted to things previously, it’s fairly easy to extrapolate that getting Joyce to do something that will most likely involve birth control, which is often tied to sex, and something that Joyce is very… well, *Joyce* about (and she kind of has been, see her calling them “hussy pills”), I wouldn’t exactly be keen on doing it either. Especially since the glasses thing was like… what, a day or two previous?
Funnily enough, when Jennifer says that it’s “up to her” to solve problems, Becky points out that it’s not Jennifer who has to deal with the aftermath. Which is true! She doesn’t! Dorothy, Becky, and Sarah are the ones who have to deal with the aftermath.
Problem is, Dorothy’s strategy of momming Joyce into doing those things just makes Joyce dig her heels in. (This probably ties in with her complicated-in-hindsight relationship with Carol; Dorothy doesn’t have any real authority over her so she feels she can safely push back.) The more defensive Joyce gets, the more Dorothy doubles down on “you’re going to because you have to because I said so”, resulting in a belligerence feedback loop.
Jennifer may not be there for the follow-through, but Dorothy could learn a thing or two from her more tactful approach.
Maybe. OTOH, Jennifer wasn’t there for the follow-through, so we don’t know if her more tactful approach would have lasted if it hit any resistance at all.
It’s fair to say that Dorothy could refine her approach to manipulating Joyce into taking care of herself, assuming that Jennifer’s approach would have worked better in the long run, but that makes it clear that both of them think Joyce has to be managed, it’s just a question of what tactics to use.
This is all true! But it’s also all just making the case that Dorothy wasn’t doing anything to help Joyce with physically debilitating periods because….she thought it was gonna be hard.
I respect that while also acknowledging that it doesn’t square with Dorothy’s self-identified role as Joyce’s caretaker and guide to the scary, scary secular world. Dorothy’s 18 or 19; she’s allowed a little hypocrisy, as a treat! (But other people are also allowed to call her on it.)
Jennifer had some good advice, but I also get where Dorothy’s coming from. Jennifer had the easy part, whereas the actual upkeep ends up in Dorothy’s, and to an extent Sarah’s, lap.
It’s not like Joyce is a tamagochi or something, but she’s someone who has needed a lot of help, between various crises she has fallen into, coming to college with a disturbing lack of socialization, etc, and while it’s easy for Jennifer for treat it like Dorothy being a helicopter friend with a savior complex or something, this shit takes a toll on you. You don’t need a parade for it, but your efforts shouldn’t get treated with disdain and disrespect, either.
🎼 Suddenly Dorothy (suddenly Dorothy), is standing behind you (she’s right behind you). She gained teleportation (super powers), as Joyce’s mom friend (she all our mom friend!) 🎶
That seems like a wildly disproportionate reaction to Jennifer’s involvement in all this, which, at least I checked, was gently and effectively persuading Joyce to go to the student health center for a birth control prescription and throwing a little shade on Joyce’s other friends for not having done so already.
Not sure why any of that merits getting beaten up.
But yeah, I’d be mad at Jennifer too, her advice and criticism was mega garbage and she deserves called on it and told she is the Least Helpful.
Jennifer did pop in, criticise everyone for doing nothing and go ‘this is easy, watch’, forced Joyce to make and go to an appointment, and Joyce was nothing but grateful to her for it.
Dorothy pushes herself to do it again knowing that glasses was already a difficult process to get Joyce through where she wasn’t appreciated for helping and not only does Joyce not appreciate being helped remotely, but if Dorothy pushed herself to do it because of the criticism, then she got told she was being a bad friend for doing nothing then made to feel like a bad friend for helping too.
And Jennifer does deserve called out for the fact it was super easy for her because she popped in once then doesn’t have to be around Joyce the rest of the time or have to help her with more than one thing.
It would definitely rankle getting shat on for not helping her friend, and then get shat on for helping her friend. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dorothy had actually had backed off and hadn’t gotten Joyce to get her birth control pills today, she would have been blamed for not doing it.
As I mentioned earlier in the comments, Becky actually pointed out the fact that Jennifer *doesn’t* have to deal with the aftermath. And it brings to mind another thought: how many times Jennifer has helped people with an initial crisis, but then hadn’t been around for the fallout/aftermath?
Considering Jennifer cited taking people to actual abortion clinics and them being part of her cheer squad… I’m guessing she was actually around for a lot of it. Just not stuff related to her: i.e. car crash.
Jennifer did try to check in on Joyce a singular time so I don’t think she is adverse to checking in immediately after. But I do think she then goes ‘well this is solved, they’re still alive’ and wanders off, not really sticking around for the long-term, only for the initial crisis.
And as Joyce told Sarah: you can’t just show up for the big stuff or only show you care in a crisis. The small things matter too.
Also, I will self-correct here that Jennifer did not make her make an appointment, they went to a walk-in. Though it doesn’t much change my point.
Yeah, but also at the same time Dorothy (and Sarah) treats Joyce, a grown-ass woman, as some kind of invalid who’s so incapable that her desire to talk to Jennifer must be blocked for her own protection. Remember, the start of this whole storyline was Dorothy and Becky (wrongly!) assuming Joyce wouldn’t want to go to a doctor.
Dorothy doesn’t really do things to help Joyce, and doesn’t seem to really care about what Joyce actually wants. She’s supposed to be your friend, not your sick hamster.
Dorothy does not block Joyce from speaking to Jennifer, Sarah does, as Sarah does not like Jennifer, never has and sees her as a bad influence on someone she regards in a sisterly way.
Dorothy is not trying to block contact either, she’s just rightfully mad that Jennifer got on at her for not doing enough to help Joyce then when she did try to help Joyce, Joyce doesn’t much appreciate it, because Jennifer gives terrible advice and criticises unfairly.
Dorothy and Becky being incorrect about Joyce’s willingness to go to the doctor also stems from her past behaviour and the pretty RECENT thing with glasses where she did make it as difficult as possible. Oh, and, they weren’t wrong ultimately either that this would become another difficult thing to manage, because Joyce did start to have a hang up that birth control are ‘hussy pills’ and they are likely still gonna have to push her to actually take them. While Jennifer just gets to write it off as ‘problem solved’ and move on.
And it is a pretty unkind read to say Dorothy doesn’t do things to help Joyce or care what she wants when she literally gives her advice to do life drawing classes and will help her find them, even when Joyce is snapping at her on and off, and has countless times listened to her, tries to give her good advice and generally tries to be a kind supportive friend. And very much WANTS to be a good friend, but is now being told by every side how bad she is at it.
I will also note here, I do NOT think Joyce has to appreciate Dorothy helping her get pills. I stand hard on the line that if someone refuses to help themselves, you cannot force them unless they are a literal child, and people can choose to remain in suffering but cannot expect others to stay with them in it. It isn’t uncommon for well-meaning caring friends to make this type of error though, because it is hard to watch someone suffer, and especially when someone criticises you for not pushing them to get help.
Forcing is when you mention doing something unpleasant to the person who finds it unpleasant, give them the option of not doing it, and then they purposely do the unpleasant thing entirely of their own accord.
Also, I’m starting to Notice Something about these Joyce comments that reminds me of certain comments made about Dina, but it’s not a solid thought yet and I can’t figure out what it is.
Right, because OBVIOUSLY when I say Joyce’s friends need to be more respectful of her agency, what I ACTSHEWALLY mean is she’s a broken, helpless automaton who can’t make good decisions for herself because she’s neurodivergent.
Do you not see the difference between “you’re doing this because it’s good for you and I said so” and “I think it would be a good idea if you did this”, or are you just being disingenuously sarcastic?
Also, do you REALLY think I would disparage neurodivergent people like that? Your comment reads like you’re dancing around saying it, and having been on the receiving end of that infantilizing shit far too many times in my life I really don’t appreciate the insinuation.
Fuck, I’d forgotten about Dorothy’s “Why not show up in a bath robe, farting!” line in response to Joyce and Jennifer doing a walk-in visit at the clinic. I think that’s the first time I’ve ever wanted to slap Dorothy. I normally like her even when she irritates me, but then again, classism is one of my hot-button issues.
And because Joyce took it up, we didn’t get to see how Jennifer would have reacted to her not doing so.
That she’d just gone off on Dorothy and Becky for not “solving this” and that she’d thought they “might reasonably take care of” Joyce, suggests to me that she still would have been focused on solving it and not just left it at that if Joyce hadn’t agreed.
But we don’t see that, so we get to blame Dorothy for dealing badly with the aftermath and praise Jennifer for doing one bit that happened to work.
Of course Jennifer would’ve tried to be more convincing, but I think Joyce was amenable at all because the decisionmaking wasn’t immediately taken out of her hands (like it was when Dorothy booked the optometrist appointment for her).
Yeah. All the ships are cute but I really think she’s just yelling at Jennifer because she can’t yell at Joyce. Booster would note she’s displacing her anger.
The infantalizing crap that Jennifer has as well. She was upset at Dorothy for not “solving” Joyce’s problem and for not taking care of her properly in her absence.
I think the difference is that Jennifer talks to Joyce like she’s her age. She’s soft on her, because yes, Joyce does need help. But Joyce also needs someone who doesn’t talk to her like she’s a toddler, even if she acts like one (to be fair to her tho, she’s in an immense amount of pain. I’d throw tantrums too, shit hurts. As well as the whole cult thing, constant Infantilization, and not knowing who you are).
Jennifer was reasonable with her, and let her make a choice. Dorothy mothered her. And Joe listens to her. I mention Joe because what he does is really important and great too 🙂 I know we’re on the Dorothy x Joyce train rn, but Joyce x Joe forever for me..
Joe actually listening to Joyce and taking her very seriously despite the wild shit she was indoctrinated in that she is slowing trying to unlearn is 100% why I ship them, despite a VERY rough start where they’d both be in their rights to never want to interact with one another again. I’m just so happy whenever they spend time together! They’re helping one another grow as people, in a beautiful way.
On one hand I agree that Jennifer was out of line disappearing from her old friend group only to reappear and act like Dorothy was slacking off in her absence. On the other hand Joyce clearly needed to have a talk with someone who didn’t treat her like a 5 year old and there is some truth the Jennifers assessment of Dorothy being judgmental with material vulture tendencies. Yes she gets Joyce to her appointments but in a way that doesn’t give Joyce much room for making her own decisions and mistakes.
Joe is pretty much the only ones that doesn’t either infantalize her in some way, shape, or form or pin her into a box, with Dina eeking out of it because at the very least, organizing folks into boxes is a trait sometimes seen in the spectrum
Dina just kinda rocks tho. I always got the impression that she’d adapt real quick if anyone politely and genuinely asked her to not do a thing and explained why they don’t like it.
Hey Dorothy maybe you should consider that Joyce is an an adult YOUR AGE and it’s not your damn job to take care of her. (a young adult, but an adult nevertheless)
Joyce needs to remember that, too, honestly. She’s got some valid gripes, but she also has been heavily reliant on the others, and just kind of expects them to magically know when to step in or not. That’s on her, too.
I have a lot of empathy for dorothy ((and joyce)) as someone who has been on both ends of the kind of friendship they have. there’s a very fine line between helpful and smothering. there’s a very fine line between grateful and overwhelmed. it’s important to step back and remember that this an overall fun and healthy friendship!! all relationships have bumps, friendships included
i think it’s also important to remember that dorothy got into yale and is leaving at the end of this semester, and she most likely wants to spend as much time as she can with her best friend before she goes away and will most not likely see her again in person for a very long time
No! No nuance! Either Joyce is the worst human being alive and a terrible friend, or Dorothy is! (Jennifer’s terribleness in this scenario is in a quantum state depending on the status of the above.) Someone has to be THE MOST WRONG, and we must identify them, so we know who to stone to death! It’s not possible that two people with a loving friendship might make mistakes, both avoidable and unavoidable, as they navigate rocky waters and while trying to juggle everything else going on in their lives! You take your empathy not limited to one favorite character and STUFF IT.
I think you are right on the money about Dorothy operating in a “I’m gonna be leaving for Yale” mindset with regards to Joyce. It’s a bit of a bummer, because it feels like she’s been focusing more on Fixing Joyce as much as she can instead of just spending time with her for the company. Stuff like intensely pressuring Joyce to immediately do whatever she needed to do to make up with Becky after they argued, instead of giving Joyce space to process an emotionally wrenching experience. It makes sense, if she’s thinking “I’m going to be out of here after this semester, I want my friend to still have her best friend when I’m gone”—but she was valuing Becky’s hurt feelings over Joyce’s atheism over Joyce’s right to embrace her atheism, and the outcome of Joyce going to talk to Becky when everything was still raw was…a paper bandaid over a gaping wound they’re pretending doesn’t still hurt, even though Becky’s doing shit like trying to reconvert Joyce to Christianity and Joyce is grimly putting up with it because the one time she didn’t immediately prioritize Becky’s needs over her own, she got told off over it by half her circle of friends.
Poor Dorothy, Joyce telling her she needs to be alone and that maybe Liz was right in saying she needs to stop seeing her old friends has hurt her a lot, probably more than she wants to admit. Seeing Dorothy angry is so weird, maybe she’s really about to realize that she, after all, loves Joyce. But Jennifer’s intervention was important.
I don’t think Dorothy heard the bit about Liz (and in fact, I don’t think she really had anything to do with the Liz visit and would not necessarily pick up the meaning of that remark without explanation even if she did).
But yeah, “than, you for your help but also I need to be alone now” probably stings right now. And it’s easier to go unload that on Jennifer than it is to unload it on someone she knows is emotionally agitated and in intense physical pain.
The problem is that Jennifer is actually very agitated too, but Dorothy don’t knows that… Good thing that a fight between the two is totally impossible even to think.
I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, want it to scan better, but sadly neither Dotty Keener nor Dorothy Keener quite fit the rhythm when you use them to replace the words “Shia LaBeouf”.
So instead I’ll focus on Jennifer’s VERY important and accurate point made in panel 5.
I like how Dorothy is mad that Joyce seems to prefer Jennifer and that Joyce was mad at Dorothy for being too controlling and omnipresent, and Dorothy’s reaction is to go yell at Jennifer for only being around occasionally.
It’s not Dorothy’s job to be Joyce’s full-time carer, and Joyce neither needs nor wants one.
What Joyce needs is some space to deal with her problems at her own pace and on her own terms. If her pace isn’t “fast enough” for other people, those people can go screw.
While that is true, you know as well as I that, left to her own devices, Joyce will simply continue to deny that there is any problem and continue to suffer in silence. (Possibly until it kills her, depending on whether there’s a deeper, more dangerous cause behind her painful periods.) Whether or not friends/family should intervene when they can see that someone they love has a problem is honestly a bigger debate that’s difficult to have a concrete answer for.
Does Joyce WANT help? She says she doesnt so we have to assume so. Does she NEED help? The glasses incident alone shows that, yes, she does. What kind of help is uo for debate.
That’s not what she’s yelling at Jennifer for.
It’s the getting mad at Dorothy for not taking care of Joyce properly when she’s not trying to do it herself.
Both Dorothy and Jennifer think Joyce does need someone to take care of her – rightly or wrongly, they agree on that.
Well, glad to see Joyce’s totally-not-attraction is returned. That is some unexamined jealousy right there. Also, Jennifer definitely has a type when it comes to women. Also good to see.
Orrrrrrr maybe you can go fuck yourself, Dorothy. Jennifer didn’t “take control”. She put Joyce in control. The reason why you taking care of Joyce takes all that work is because you refuse to do the same.
I’m not sure how well the control thing applies, since Jennifer handily avoided telling Joyce what the most likely outcome of the doctor’s visit would be, and then peaced right out when the thing that Dorothy and Becky knew would be an issue did in fact become an issue.
And considering Jennifer did that after scolding them for “not fixing this”, I don’t think she’s really in any kind of superior position. She agreed that an intervention was necessary.
“Fixing this” isn’t acting like Joyce is 17 months old intead of 17 years, unless you intend to spend the rest of your mutual lives “fixing this”. “Fixing this” is making sure Joyce is aware of her options and then letting her make the calls.
She…what? She literally did not do that. JOYCE kicked her out of the room because she didn’t want to discuss her reproductive organs with Jennifer in the room. Jennifer then WAITED for her to be finished, made sure she was good before heading back to her own dorm, and then checked up on her later in the day. It’s now the next morning, and Jennifer has her own stuff to be doing.
That’s not ‘peacing out’, its literally how anyone with a life will act when assuming that someone else has agency and their own stuff going on, but still wants to be supportive. This is entirely normal.
I didn’t think this before, but after this strip and more thought, I think Billie might have actually done better with the prescription pickup than Dotty did. Probably go the “no one’s going to care almost every woman on campus takes birth control they’re not going to remember your face, okay we’re here tell them your name,” as opposed to Dorothy (and Becky) kiiiiiind of feeding the insecurity by instead taking the “we’ll prove you’re not a hussy!’ route.
I honestly think she would have. This is gonna sound bad, but: Joyce is susceptible to peer pressure. For all that she has clearly picked up, at this point, that Jennifer is a hot flaming mess, she also still thinks she’s really cool, and she likes her and wants to be her friend, and wants Jennifer to think of her as a friend. “Billie is my cool friend who obviously knows ALL ABOUT the hussy pills and how to score them and she says it’s NBD and no one will think twice about me getting them, so I’ll just follow her lead even though I’m still deeply uncomfortable about all of this. I don’t want her to think I’m weird,” would probably have gone smoother than this.
It’s not the healthiest way to make choices, and the stress would still have been present, just more self-contained…but her other friends poking at Joyce’s insecurities and stress about this so that they kept coming out doesn’t seem to have alleviated them at all, just upped the drama quotient by stressing out Dorothy, too.
*Acting* like getting a birth control wasn’t a big deal, actually modeling that for her, would have been more effective than constantly vocally reassuring her that of course it’s not a big deal, there’s nothing to worry about, I promise this isn’t going to hurt a bit, sweetie! When you tell someone it’s not going to hurt a bit! they’re much more sensitized to the possibility that it WILL hurt.
I mean, that was what I was alluding to when I said she’s clearly aware by now that Jennifer is a mess. But she’s expressing a lot of affection and appreciation for Jennifer’s presence the same time she’s calling her on her too-cool act.
It’s hard to articulate, but I think if Joyce didn’t put any stock in Jennifer’s superior knowledge of stuff like birth control—which, yes, I’m pretty sure she DID know was going to be the likely suggestion from a doctor for handling her debilitating periods—she wouldn’t have agreed to go with Jennifer so quickly. (Cause the thing about Jennifer is that her judgement overall is pretty crap, but she does have a lot of experience-based knowledge that is real and valuable even if a lot of it was probably acquired by making bad decisions.)
Dorothy— taking care of Joyce is not your job. But you probably won’t learn to avoid too close friendships with the Joyces of the world for another decade or two like, in your time. (100 years from the readers perspective.)
Also Dorothy is making a lot of assumptions about Jennifer’s intents regarding helping Joyce with her period suggestion, we already know she checked in on Joyce afterwards, who’s to say that, knowing the while appointment was emotionally draining on Joyce and that the birth control wouldn’t help her immediately, she was planning on giving Joyce a few days before offering to help her pick it up
As opposed to Dorothy’s “you gotta do it right this second” style of helping
Thinking about it Dorothy doesn’t give Joyce a chance to process all the big changes in her life it’s no wonder Joyce got overwhelmed and is now lashing out
A lot of people giving Dorothy crap and…I can’t argue, she’s several bits too controlling. I mean Dorothy is still a LITTLE right in how Jennifer ditched again(plus she was no help when Joyce was diagnosed with autism) but still she’s kinda pushing here.
I know the flashback chapter skewed things a bit for us but please remember that Jennifer taking Joyce to the doctor literally happened yesterday in universe, Jennifer hasn’t had enough time to ditch
(Also side note, Joyce has not yet been diagnosed with Autism, she’s gotten a referral to see a specialist to maybe be diagnosed)
Oh shit, you’re right… I don’t think Dotty yelling at Jennifer is uncalled for (Jennifer did snark at the group, doing her whole “Guess I’m the component one again” schtick) but now it does seem a bit… Ehhhh
First thing in the morning the next day Dotty does a Joyce Thing. Second thing in the morning, Dotty scolds Billie for abandoning them forever in their hour of greatest need.
And Jennifer didn’t just ditch? She made a point of following up with Joyce after her appointment, after classes. She even had a stand-off with Sarah over it!
Sure, maybe she’s GONNA ditch again, buf honestly, I’ve argued before that that wouldn’t make her evil; as long as she’s clear and honest with Joyce about what Joyce can expect from her in terms of ongoing support, it’s not the worst thing in the world to step in to help someone in crisis when they need an immediate, concrete intervention, but not to commit to being the long-term support. The lady who drove me and my dog to the vet when she got hit by a car didn’t agree to stay with me and pay the vet bills, she just drove me to the vet, and that saved my dog’s life! I got no complaints about that!
Also, while it’s understandable that Dorothy isn’t aware of this, since she’s not omniscient, Joyce and Jennifer have already talked about the distance Jennifer put between them, and it’s Joyce’s call how handle that. Not Dorothy’s. (I do think Dorothy is venting her own Joyce-frustrations on Jennifer in this strip more than she’s trying to manage the Joyce-Jennifer friendship the way she’s kiiiiinda been trying to manage Joyce and Becky lately, or else I would say well, that’s a troubling pattern!)
I’ll half give you the first point as YES it has…. been just a day(this comic distorts my perception of time) but I still feel Jen keeping herself at lengths from the group a detractor.
ALSO… doesn’t that count as a diagnosis? Learn something new every day. Either way,she and Dotty didn’t handle it well. Kinda a toss up on who was worse, Jen was more crass, but Dotty’s “masking” comment felt like unintentional neuro-splaining.
The thing that bugged me about Dorothy strong-arming Joyce into picking up her meds first thing in the morning while fussing at her for not getting them the day before is, birth control is not some magic drug that instantly eliminates all your pain and so you must start taking it right away OR ELSE. Hell, the ones she’ll be taking while she’s still on her period are placebos, anyway.
Point being, there was no reason for Becky, Dorothy, and Sarah to fuss at Joyce about not immediately picking them up, and there was no reason for Dorothy to drag her out of bed and push her into a stressful situation while she was still miserable, exhausted and in pain.
And sure, maybe Joyce shouldn’t be so snippy with the people who’re trying to help her (with varying degrees of success), but look. As an autistic person who had horrible endometriosis and poly-cystic ovarian syndrome that eventually necessitated a complete hysterectomy, I’m speaking from experience when I say that being in that much pain to start with and then having to deal with additional stress, anxiety and pressure and people getting up in my face on top of that did not usually put me in the best of moods, either, and it always took me a long time to recover afterwards.
On the whole, I feel like Dorothy, Becky, and Sarah really do mean well (if begrudgingly so in Sarah’s case, lol), and a lot of Joyce’s anger and frustration right now is coming from her physical pain and discomfort, and they probably all need to just give each other some breathing room right now.
I agree that there are a lot of good intentions leading to bad outcomes. It seems like Dorothy thought the meds would help immediately and that’s why she was pushing for Joyce to start taking them right away. She obviously things Joyce isn’t capable of taking care of herself and that’s why she appoints herself as the mom-friend.
Like, they’re good friends to her. I do love them all (Becky a little less…) But damn, they need to CHILL. I’m tired of people treating Joyce like a toddler, and not letting her make her own choices. They really like laying in on her when she’s just waking up too… Get on Joyce for not respecting boundaries (which she changed), but they don’t respect hers either. It’s like she gets the illusion of choice and it’s just a little weird.
I’ll admit I have more empathy for Joyce on this matter, but I am starting to see Dorothy’s side too thanks to the new strip and the comments. I just don’t think she HAS to do any of this. Also learned that this all happened in the course of like, one day.
Everyone here going Joyce/Dorothy/Jennifer are either perfect and good/terrible and evil people with no grey. They’re all dumb college kids, full tilt. No one is perfect.
They don’t have the collective wisdom of the comments section, who are divorced from the events and pulling judgments on the each person’s character while forgetting that living in the moment from that character’s perspective kinda makes it hard to make good decisions. Dorothy, Joyce, and Jennifer can’t press pause on what’s going down to think it thru. They don’t have 24 hours like we do between strips, but a lot of people here are expecting them to make the perfect decision anyway.
I’m glad she’s calling out Billie on this. Billie’s “swoop in and take control while looking down on everyone else” was bugging me. She really needs a reality check on herself.
Loading ...
…spontaneously thinking, FOR SOME REASON, that one day there will just be a ship generator that names every possible permutation of ships
I never dreamed Dorothy and Jennifer, but it’s the hottest ship yet.
But is the ship name Jorthy or Dennifer?
Jorts.
Dilly.
Sounds like a fun endearment or fun sex threat, I’ll dilly you.
That’s taken.
I humbly suggest Jennothy.
Dorth Illie? Dorth Nifer? I feel that it has to start with Dorth because it sounds like Darth and Billie is tooootally not into Star Wars.
Birthy
Thanks. I hate it.
One’s a future president and the other’s from a family with big bucks
The Buck Stops Here
If not for Joyce’s crisis of faith, her ship with Dorothy could’ve been Preachy Keen(er)
Pre-atheism Joyce, shipped with her own OC Julia Grey the starfighter pilot, could be Preach Bomber
Jennifer, bring a spoiled princess, could have been shipped with pre-atheism Joyce as Princess Preach.
(Jennifer with Daisy would be– what else?– Princess Daisy)
Yes! I very much prefer the RWBY style of naming ships over just mashing names together (though occasionally a pair of names sounds too good not to).
If I were clever I would make a pun out of them both being leaders (president and cheerleader) or Jennifer’s nickname being Billie and presidents sign bills…
How’s about Executive Billie for a name? 😛
I like the portmanteau variety if there’s a very obviously good one (or someone can eventually come up with a very good one) like Ronance but otherwise I do prefer the theme names instead.
Heads of State in Charge
It doesn’t really matter, as it will just go down in flames, like Jennifer’s other ships. Just saying.
This is like saying the Hindenburg’s name doesn’t really matter because it went down in flames.
It’s possible to go down in flames so magnificently that your name is remembered forever in history.
Well, do people remember the Hindenburg for the crash itself, or for Herbert Morrison? If Morrison didn’t lose his shit, more than likely the Hindenburg would just be a footnote in history, that most people would glance over.
Dorothy stares angrily into Billie’s eyes for a long moment, then looks at her lips. “Kiss me, you fool.”
Dorofer.
I put forth Jotty.
You need a reason?
Plays “Utah Saints” on the hacked Muzak:
“I believe in me. I believe in you.
I believe in me. I believe in you.
I believe in me. I believe in you.
Don’t you know I believe in love.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr3Eync1MSk
‘Course, Jennifer’s likely still concussed from having Ruth slam her head on the floor just the day before.
Ow…
Can’t wait for GalassoXPenny.
A match made in … somewhere.
Galasso will finally know what sex is
Dornifer? Jennithey?
There’s not enough computing power in the world for that. Our ships are quantum!
a wild Dorothy appears!
She uses Scold.
It’s not very effective.
Ooo I love these! 😃
*plays Pokémon Kanto Wild Battle Theme*
DOROTHY F-BOMB COUNT DOUBLES
Without counting from the list someone’s curated, I trust that count implicity. Because Dorothy.
Here’s her other one: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/flunking/
That one also came after she was accused of trying too hard to help someone
And here she gets half of one.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/basting/
WHYD YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME HOW WONDERFUL THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS!
Yep. And she’s still the least sweary character who’s on the scoreboard at all.
Does Dorothy think they’re divorced parents
I mean, with how much she and Jennifer tended to be Joyce’s “role models” in the earliest years of DoA, Dorothy’s not entirely wrong.
Joyce’s Family:
Dorothy and Jennifer – Moms
Sarah – Big sis
Liz – Bad influence friend
Dina – Good influence friend
Carla – Awesome influence friend
Joe – Pet dog in need of being fixed
That read on Joe gives a whole new meaning to “I can fix him!”
Was the dog named Danny? Or am I hallucinating that?
I think I’m hallucinating that. Does anybody remember what the dogs name was?
In the Walkyverse she has two dogs. The first one introduced was backed Danny, but then later when they visited her parents we were introduced to her much older dog Walky
Daniel and Walkies!
I can’t stop laughing at the thought. Would certainly change how certain love stories play out.
*wields scalpel* “if you can just hold him still long enough…”
I would have made Dina “weird little sister whose strange prescience gets ignored by everyone in her family (c.f. Cassandra).”
I’m choosing to read the hovertext in the voice of the announcer from Super Smash Bros.
Last panel — Jennifer’s arousal is only gonna reinforce her joining in to help Joyce.
Hopefully she’s gonna at least be less condescending than Dorothy.
Yeah, that’s what Jennifer does, talk to people with respect.
Kidding aside, I mean, maybe she’ll respect that Dorothy’s confronting her about this shit.
It’s about time someone called Billie on her shit. All this pretending to be a new person ugh.
Billie? Allow others agency?
Is this one of your Earth Jokes?
Hey neat to meet another interplanetary traveler!
If they demand it maybe. Dorothy may finally be ready to … gasp … assert herself. After seeing that violent outburst at Ruth, I think maybe what Billie wants is good, old fashioned, New York cabbie shouting match. Tell her what you really think, Dorothy.
Dumbing of Age Book 13: Sudden Dorothy!
Oh my lord. Dorothy, there’s Mom Friend Status and then there’s teleporting in to lecture one of your friend’s other random friends for being a deadbeat Dad.
(This should not be read as angry, I find this strip hilarious.)
I love it as well. The wrath of the self-sacrificing Mom-friend is terrifying.
Im just impressed that Joyce’s teleportation powers have rubbed off onto Dorothy, tho, thus far, they seem to only activate when she’s mad at someone.
“You’re making me angry. You won’t like how I pop up out of nowhere to give you a piece of my mind when I’m angry.”
You mean like Jennifer did when she showed up to yell at Dorothy and Becky for “not solving this”?
Someone should actually make a tally to see which character takes care of Joyce the most
Ugh…Guess I’ll have to draw them making out.
The shit I put up with, I swear.
Thank you for your sacrifices.
Yoto’s always willing to jump on that grenade for us.
o7
I guess strangely some of us are also turned on by this, me included.
The call to greatness cannot be ignored.
It’s always the ships you never imagined that strike in an unexpected moment…
It is but another step in your journey to become a True Porn Lord.
And a Walky reaction to it, please, especially if it’s in the same alternate time where Walky and JB shared their moment.
I just assume all the yotomoe strips are in the same canon.
For the most part 😛 The Yotoverse which is only slightly hornier than the original DOA. Also I probably have given Walky too much action though. I’m neglecting the other boys!
Heavy weighs the crown.
This encounter felt like it hit like a sucker punch out of no where.
You bear a tremendous burden, good Yoto.
Dorothy is frustrated with Joyce right now but it’s hardly fair to take that out on Jennifer
I mean, of all the options she coulda picked to dump this on, i think this one is a little obvious, but not too bad.
Looks like there’s even a new “ship” as a bonus from this little interaction here, so i guess it ain’t bad at all.
Not quite. Go back a bit. What got Joyce to the clinic where she got her diagnosis in the first place? Jennifer talked a lot of shit, to Dorothy and to Joyce, and the boomerang’s come back around.
She views Joyce as something she needs to fix, and Jennifer rightfully so needs to be taken down a peg. Just not in this way.
hopefully she gets jennifer to help out tho considering she’s ‘so busy’ i would’ve expected her to get back to her yale stuff unless jen happened to be in her path on the way back
I think she may have realised the medication doing nothing yet means going to the pharmacist was kind of unnecessary in the immediate term and is mad that Jennifer accidentally may have done a better job on this one
Good thing she didn’t run into Roz I guess
we don’t know if Joyce has even taken the medication yet. how would it have had any effect at all? she’s pretty clearly mad at jen for insulting her to her face, like, a day ago.
It was mentioned as they left the pharmacy that since Joyce is currently on her period she’ll be starting with placebos, so even if she started taking them the moment she walked out the door the medication won’t actually help with the pain until the next time around.
I think that this is more about Dorothy feeling threatened about her role as the caretaker friend since Joyce got grouchy about her helping after having accepted Jennifer’s help earlier, but it is a fair point that they probably could’ve saved the pharmacy visit for when Joyce was feeling better and it wouldn’t have changed the effectiveness of the meds.
I think it’s more about Jennifer barging in getting mad about Dorothy not “solving” Joyce’s problems, taking one step to help and leaving Dorothy to deal with the rest.
The “maternal vulture” thing? I guess that’s an insult but it’s pretty tame in terms of how these folks talk to each other. Honestly I kind of mentally put that aside, Jennifer being the only one who didn’t assume Joyce taking birth control had to be the biggest deal ever took up much more brainspace around that interaction for me.
Wow, that was certainly an outburst. How much of that she actually means and how much of it is her anger?
Also Billie/Jennifer, having a woman be mad at you and that turning you on, is probably something you should talk to someone about.
hey now don’t kinkshame ;P /j maybe not legitimate anger but i’m sure some ppl appreciate an ‘assertive’ woman haha
Oh don’t get me wrong, assertive is not bad at all. I find I’m more attracted to women that, make that first step in asking you out, or she makes sure you spend time together just doing small things. A woman who knows what she wants is a very attractive trait.
If liking assertive women is wrong, then I don’t want to be right.
I’d like to know if this is something she already had before and it made her attracted to Ruth or was it something Ruth instilled in her with her behaviour…
Haha, go Dorothy! She’s just taken a load of undeserved shit from Joyce and instead of escalating with someone who is clearly not herself, she dumped it right where it belonged. She was doing a great job just putting up with Joyce, waiting for her to recover, biding her time for a more opportune time to Have A Talk until Billie showed up out of nowhere to berate her.
Is this the first time (after dumping Dan) that we’e seen her assert herself? Just imagine all the pent up anger she saved up from never lashing out at Becky with, haha.
She wasn’t waiting til Joyce recovered to have a talk with her, if she were she would have told Jennifer when Jennifer asked why nothing was being done
She was explicitly not doing it because she felt it would be hard
Consider how difficult it was to get Joyce to get her eyes checked.
And based on that, and how Joyce has reacted to things previously, it’s fairly easy to extrapolate that getting Joyce to do something that will most likely involve birth control, which is often tied to sex, and something that Joyce is very… well, *Joyce* about (and she kind of has been, see her calling them “hussy pills”), I wouldn’t exactly be keen on doing it either. Especially since the glasses thing was like… what, a day or two previous?
Funnily enough, when Jennifer says that it’s “up to her” to solve problems, Becky points out that it’s not Jennifer who has to deal with the aftermath. Which is true! She doesn’t! Dorothy, Becky, and Sarah are the ones who have to deal with the aftermath.
yes! exactly!
Problem is, Dorothy’s strategy of momming Joyce into doing those things just makes Joyce dig her heels in. (This probably ties in with her complicated-in-hindsight relationship with Carol; Dorothy doesn’t have any real authority over her so she feels she can safely push back.) The more defensive Joyce gets, the more Dorothy doubles down on “you’re going to because you have to because I said so”, resulting in a belligerence feedback loop.
Jennifer may not be there for the follow-through, but Dorothy could learn a thing or two from her more tactful approach.
Maybe. OTOH, Jennifer wasn’t there for the follow-through, so we don’t know if her more tactful approach would have lasted if it hit any resistance at all.
It’s fair to say that Dorothy could refine her approach to manipulating Joyce into taking care of herself, assuming that Jennifer’s approach would have worked better in the long run, but that makes it clear that both of them think Joyce has to be managed, it’s just a question of what tactics to use.
This is all true! But it’s also all just making the case that Dorothy wasn’t doing anything to help Joyce with physically debilitating periods because….she thought it was gonna be hard.
I respect that while also acknowledging that it doesn’t square with Dorothy’s self-identified role as Joyce’s caretaker and guide to the scary, scary secular world. Dorothy’s 18 or 19; she’s allowed a little hypocrisy, as a treat! (But other people are also allowed to call her on it.)
“undeserved”? I think she was being beyond smothering
two kinds of people in the comments
1) “dorothy shouldn’t be taking her issues out on Jennifer”
2) “aw yeah they gonna fug”
3) Aw yeah we finally see dotty spitting flames!
4.) They gonna F U G
5) Dorothy should take out her issues on Jennifer in bed (with safe words).
6) I heartily approve of the above idea and wish to subscribe to your newsletter, Proxiehunter old bean.
Jennifer had some good advice, but I also get where Dorothy’s coming from. Jennifer had the easy part, whereas the actual upkeep ends up in Dorothy’s, and to an extent Sarah’s, lap.
It’s not like Joyce is a tamagochi or something, but she’s someone who has needed a lot of help, between various crises she has fallen into, coming to college with a disturbing lack of socialization, etc, and while it’s easy for Jennifer for treat it like Dorothy being a helicopter friend with a savior complex or something, this shit takes a toll on you. You don’t need a parade for it, but your efforts shouldn’t get treated with disdain and disrespect, either.
Jennifer spoke for all of us there
Not the F/F ship some of us expected, but I say go on.
Absolutely. I’m not sold, but I’m listening.
HEAR, HEAR! Cast off the MOORINGS, say I!
Sudden Dorothy sounds like a good band name.
This is like with divorced parents, dad only shows up every other month.
SUDDEN DOROTHY! is also the last thing said by the Wicked Witch of the East.
🎼 Suddenly Dorothy (suddenly Dorothy), is standing behind you (she’s right behind you). She gained teleportation (super powers), as Joyce’s mom friend (she all our mom friend!) 🎶
I feel like this is an actual cannibal shia labeouf reference but I’m so out of the loop on current age memes lately i could be completely wrong
It’s actually a “Suddenly Seymour” song reference from the musical version of little shop of horrors. Approximately the 2m 45s mark.
https://youtu.be/9DD7VIKZnGA
Dammit.
I’m not familiar with that one. Never got into little shop of horros.
Jennifer has a type. Wearing glasses and angry at her.
I don’t even think she needs the glasses, I think its just the anger.
The anger is the most important part but the glasses definitely help.
oh shit Jennifer secretly crushes on Sal?
I’m pretty sure she does, actually.
Don’t we all??
i mean she tried to kiss her once when she was drunk, way way back in the beginning of the comic
“Job”
Uhhhhh?
I’d pay Dorothy to slap the shit at out of her at this point if I had the option.
That seems like a wildly disproportionate reaction to Jennifer’s involvement in all this, which, at least I checked, was gently and effectively persuading Joyce to go to the student health center for a birth control prescription and throwing a little shade on Joyce’s other friends for not having done so already.
Not sure why any of that merits getting beaten up.
Its be fun to watch
Ew!
unexpected ship, but a welcome? one lol
Dammit Jennifer; down girl lol
Umm … phrasing?
Dorothy is not in a great mood.
But yeah, I’d be mad at Jennifer too, her advice and criticism was mega garbage and she deserves called on it and told she is the Least Helpful.
Jennifer did pop in, criticise everyone for doing nothing and go ‘this is easy, watch’, forced Joyce to make and go to an appointment, and Joyce was nothing but grateful to her for it.
Dorothy pushes herself to do it again knowing that glasses was already a difficult process to get Joyce through where she wasn’t appreciated for helping and not only does Joyce not appreciate being helped remotely, but if Dorothy pushed herself to do it because of the criticism, then she got told she was being a bad friend for doing nothing then made to feel like a bad friend for helping too.
And Jennifer does deserve called out for the fact it was super easy for her because she popped in once then doesn’t have to be around Joyce the rest of the time or have to help her with more than one thing.
It would definitely rankle getting shat on for not helping her friend, and then get shat on for helping her friend. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dorothy had actually had backed off and hadn’t gotten Joyce to get her birth control pills today, she would have been blamed for not doing it.
As I mentioned earlier in the comments, Becky actually pointed out the fact that Jennifer *doesn’t* have to deal with the aftermath. And it brings to mind another thought: how many times Jennifer has helped people with an initial crisis, but then hadn’t been around for the fallout/aftermath?
Considering Jennifer cited taking people to actual abortion clinics and them being part of her cheer squad… I’m guessing she was actually around for a lot of it. Just not stuff related to her: i.e. car crash.
I don’t think we should count as evidence stuff that’s mentioned in passing as backstory taht we never see reflected onscreen
I don’t see why we wouldn’t? We take everyone else’s stated backstory even if it’s not been seen on screen, or not yet
Jennifer did try to check in on Joyce a singular time so I don’t think she is adverse to checking in immediately after. But I do think she then goes ‘well this is solved, they’re still alive’ and wanders off, not really sticking around for the long-term, only for the initial crisis.
And as Joyce told Sarah: you can’t just show up for the big stuff or only show you care in a crisis. The small things matter too.
Also, I will self-correct here that Jennifer did not make her make an appointment, they went to a walk-in. Though it doesn’t much change my point.
Yeah, Dorothy tried to make an appointment for her, which was bad and wrong somehow.
Yeah, but also at the same time Dorothy (and Sarah) treats Joyce, a grown-ass woman, as some kind of invalid who’s so incapable that her desire to talk to Jennifer must be blocked for her own protection. Remember, the start of this whole storyline was Dorothy and Becky (wrongly!) assuming Joyce wouldn’t want to go to a doctor.
Dorothy doesn’t really do things to help Joyce, and doesn’t seem to really care about what Joyce actually wants. She’s supposed to be your friend, not your sick hamster.
Dorothy does not block Joyce from speaking to Jennifer, Sarah does, as Sarah does not like Jennifer, never has and sees her as a bad influence on someone she regards in a sisterly way.
Dorothy is not trying to block contact either, she’s just rightfully mad that Jennifer got on at her for not doing enough to help Joyce then when she did try to help Joyce, Joyce doesn’t much appreciate it, because Jennifer gives terrible advice and criticises unfairly.
Dorothy and Becky being incorrect about Joyce’s willingness to go to the doctor also stems from her past behaviour and the pretty RECENT thing with glasses where she did make it as difficult as possible. Oh, and, they weren’t wrong ultimately either that this would become another difficult thing to manage, because Joyce did start to have a hang up that birth control are ‘hussy pills’ and they are likely still gonna have to push her to actually take them. While Jennifer just gets to write it off as ‘problem solved’ and move on.
And it is a pretty unkind read to say Dorothy doesn’t do things to help Joyce or care what she wants when she literally gives her advice to do life drawing classes and will help her find them, even when Joyce is snapping at her on and off, and has countless times listened to her, tries to give her good advice and generally tries to be a kind supportive friend. And very much WANTS to be a good friend, but is now being told by every side how bad she is at it.
I will also note here, I do NOT think Joyce has to appreciate Dorothy helping her get pills. I stand hard on the line that if someone refuses to help themselves, you cannot force them unless they are a literal child, and people can choose to remain in suffering but cannot expect others to stay with them in it. It isn’t uncommon for well-meaning caring friends to make this type of error though, because it is hard to watch someone suffer, and especially when someone criticises you for not pushing them to get help.
Mama’s gonna keep you right here under her wing
She won’t let you fly but she might let you sing
Mama will keep baby cosy and warm
“Forced”, nothing. She made an offer and left it up to Joyce whether she wanted to take it up or not.
Forcing is when you mention doing something unpleasant to the person who finds it unpleasant, give them the option of not doing it, and then they purposely do the unpleasant thing entirely of their own accord.
Also, I’m starting to Notice Something about these Joyce comments that reminds me of certain comments made about Dina, but it’s not a solid thought yet and I can’t figure out what it is.
Right, because OBVIOUSLY when I say Joyce’s friends need to be more respectful of her agency, what I ACTSHEWALLY mean is she’s a broken, helpless automaton who can’t make good decisions for herself because she’s neurodivergent.
This is what I was referring to:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/02-look-straight-ahead/saunter/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/04-dont-stop-billie-ving/appointment-2/
Do you not see the difference between “you’re doing this because it’s good for you and I said so” and “I think it would be a good idea if you did this”, or are you just being disingenuously sarcastic?
Also, do you REALLY think I would disparage neurodivergent people like that? Your comment reads like you’re dancing around saying it, and having been on the receiving end of that infantilizing shit far too many times in my life I really don’t appreciate the insinuation.
It wasn’t aimed at you. Sorry for the ambiguous phrasing. I was trying to back up the point you made.
To try to be clearer: I was insinuating that other people might potentially be doing the thing that you thought I was saying you were doing.
Thank you.
Sorry for the outburst, but that’s my hot-button issue.
Understandable! It’s one of mine too.
Fuck, I’d forgotten about Dorothy’s “Why not show up in a bath robe, farting!” line in response to Joyce and Jennifer doing a walk-in visit at the clinic. I think that’s the first time I’ve ever wanted to slap Dorothy. I normally like her even when she irritates me, but then again, classism is one of my hot-button issues.
And because Joyce took it up, we didn’t get to see how Jennifer would have reacted to her not doing so.
That she’d just gone off on Dorothy and Becky for not “solving this” and that she’d thought they “might reasonably take care of” Joyce, suggests to me that she still would have been focused on solving it and not just left it at that if Joyce hadn’t agreed.
But we don’t see that, so we get to blame Dorothy for dealing badly with the aftermath and praise Jennifer for doing one bit that happened to work.
Of course Jennifer would’ve tried to be more convincing, but I think Joyce was amenable at all because the decisionmaking wasn’t immediately taken out of her hands (like it was when Dorothy booked the optometrist appointment for her).
she has been bottling a lot, i think
Yeah. All the ships are cute but I really think she’s just yelling at Jennifer because she can’t yell at Joyce. Booster would note she’s displacing her anger.
I really wish Booster interacted with the main cast more.
“Stay away! Joyce is MY girlfriend!”
“What are you gonna do to stop me?! Make out with me angrily?!? Bite my lip??!”
That’s… Not a healthy view to have, Dorothy. That’s the infantalizing crap I’ve mentioned before
The infantalizing crap that Jennifer has as well. She was upset at Dorothy for not “solving” Joyce’s problem and for not taking care of her properly in her absence.
I think the difference is that Jennifer talks to Joyce like she’s her age. She’s soft on her, because yes, Joyce does need help. But Joyce also needs someone who doesn’t talk to her like she’s a toddler, even if she acts like one (to be fair to her tho, she’s in an immense amount of pain. I’d throw tantrums too, shit hurts. As well as the whole cult thing, constant Infantilization, and not knowing who you are).
Jennifer was reasonable with her, and let her make a choice. Dorothy mothered her. And Joe listens to her. I mention Joe because what he does is really important and great too 🙂 I know we’re on the Dorothy x Joyce train rn, but Joyce x Joe forever for me..
Joe actually listening to Joyce and taking her very seriously despite the wild shit she was indoctrinated in that she is slowing trying to unlearn is 100% why I ship them, despite a VERY rough start where they’d both be in their rights to never want to interact with one another again. I’m just so happy whenever they spend time together! They’re helping one another grow as people, in a beautiful way.
On one hand I agree that Jennifer was out of line disappearing from her old friend group only to reappear and act like Dorothy was slacking off in her absence. On the other hand Joyce clearly needed to have a talk with someone who didn’t treat her like a 5 year old and there is some truth the Jennifers assessment of Dorothy being judgmental with material vulture tendencies. Yes she gets Joyce to her appointments but in a way that doesn’t give Joyce much room for making her own decisions and mistakes.
*maternal
Joe is pretty much the only ones that doesn’t either infantalize her in some way, shape, or form or pin her into a box, with Dina eeking out of it because at the very least, organizing folks into boxes is a trait sometimes seen in the spectrum
Since when does Dina organize people into boxes?
She’s not that much into people as she is into dinosaurs. 🦖🦕
I think her boxes are just ‘dinosaurs’ and ‘not dinosaurs’ with a special spot on the side set for Becky.
With the obvious discrepancy of organizing the many many different kinds of dinosaurs many many ways, yes, very much so.
The Becky box can be found in the dinosaur box.
Fuck hit flag by accident, sorry
The fundamentalist box she put Joyce in and still has her somewhat in
Dina just kinda rocks tho. I always got the impression that she’d adapt real quick if anyone politely and genuinely asked her to not do a thing and explained why they don’t like it.
Yeah, Dina gets away with it because well, I know from experience that it can be hard not to compartmentalize people at times with this disorder
I mean, lots of people compartmentalized Joyce as “just another fundie”.
To me it just doesn’t seem as much an autism thing as much as it is a human thing.
Dorothy is correct. Her unstoppable righteousness is a freckled sexy avalanche comin’ down the mountain.
“Show up for one day, snark at me, take control for a hot second, and then disappear again”
DOROTHY: And now YOU swoop in and seem all COOL when I KNOW you would NEVER have followed through with things and I—I’m just going to—
JENNIFER: Grab me by my hair and make out with me?
DOROTHY: I don’t want to make out with you! I want to DESTROY you!
JENNIFER: Those are the same thing!
I would like a recreation of the Danny kissing Ethan dream strip with Dorothy and Jennifer
God, yes, 1000 times this.
Willis, we beseech you, grant unto us this sapphic blessing.
On the one hand, absolutely Dorothy is controlling of Joyce and there’s ways she ain’t great in that capacity(though I do love it as her big flaw)
On the other hand, very much feel her anger of being unappreciated for her efforts
On the lesbian hand, pretty defensive Dorothy, perhaps even jealous of Jennifer
On the queer hand, if that is the direction of Dorothy(a person who has viewed herself as straight for so long) what does that mean?
On the Yale hand, Dorothy, you need to spend more time thinking about your politics and considering your connections to activists
On the Florence hand, I wonder if I should order a package of some sort just so I can feel like a kid at Christmas again
On the Willis hand, *insert Willis thoughts here*
You made me smile. Thank you Florence. 😊
And yes, you should definitely order a package of some sort. Because you should get to smile too. 😊
DAMN YOU WELLERMAN FOR BEING SO SUPPORTIVE!!
I may 😊
And that’s how you end up looking like an indu deity or a hecatonchir
*scratching my chin with the Florence hand
You’re not wrong
I hope you washed it first.
It may take a while but I keep all my various hands clean
That’s a lot of hands.
I need them, for considering perspectives, and also holding bags
Emotional baggage that is
I don’t doubt Bilthy already exists somewhere out there already
Hey Dorothy maybe you should consider that Joyce is an an adult YOUR AGE and it’s not your damn job to take care of her. (a young adult, but an adult nevertheless)
Joyce needs to remember that, too, honestly. She’s got some valid gripes, but she also has been heavily reliant on the others, and just kind of expects them to magically know when to step in or not. That’s on her, too.
Maybe Jennifer should consider that too and not go off on Dorothy for not doing it properly.
Maybe my OTP isn’t Billie and Ruth. Maybe it’s Billie and any girl she’s in an argument with.
Respectable
that’s also Billie’s OTP
**Jennifer’s
***Billifer’s
Hey, I may as well go all in and be wrong on every level
Damn this is giving me some divorced parents energy
I have a lot of empathy for dorothy ((and joyce)) as someone who has been on both ends of the kind of friendship they have. there’s a very fine line between helpful and smothering. there’s a very fine line between grateful and overwhelmed. it’s important to step back and remember that this an overall fun and healthy friendship!! all relationships have bumps, friendships included
i think it’s also important to remember that dorothy got into yale and is leaving at the end of this semester, and she most likely wants to spend as much time as she can with her best friend before she goes away and will most not likely see her again in person for a very long time
No! No nuance! Either Joyce is the worst human being alive and a terrible friend, or Dorothy is! (Jennifer’s terribleness in this scenario is in a quantum state depending on the status of the above.) Someone has to be THE MOST WRONG, and we must identify them, so we know who to stone to death! It’s not possible that two people with a loving friendship might make mistakes, both avoidable and unavoidable, as they navigate rocky waters and while trying to juggle everything else going on in their lives! You take your empathy not limited to one favorite character and STUFF IT.
I think you are right on the money about Dorothy operating in a “I’m gonna be leaving for Yale” mindset with regards to Joyce. It’s a bit of a bummer, because it feels like she’s been focusing more on Fixing Joyce as much as she can instead of just spending time with her for the company. Stuff like intensely pressuring Joyce to immediately do whatever she needed to do to make up with Becky after they argued, instead of giving Joyce space to process an emotionally wrenching experience. It makes sense, if she’s thinking “I’m going to be out of here after this semester, I want my friend to still have her best friend when I’m gone”—but she was valuing Becky’s hurt feelings over Joyce’s atheism over Joyce’s right to embrace her atheism, and the outcome of Joyce going to talk to Becky when everything was still raw was…a paper bandaid over a gaping wound they’re pretending doesn’t still hurt, even though Becky’s doing shit like trying to reconvert Joyce to Christianity and Joyce is grimly putting up with it because the one time she didn’t immediately prioritize Becky’s needs over her own, she got told off over it by half her circle of friends.
Poor Dorothy, Joyce telling her she needs to be alone and that maybe Liz was right in saying she needs to stop seeing her old friends has hurt her a lot, probably more than she wants to admit. Seeing Dorothy angry is so weird, maybe she’s really about to realize that she, after all, loves Joyce. But Jennifer’s intervention was important.
I don’t think Dorothy heard the bit about Liz (and in fact, I don’t think she really had anything to do with the Liz visit and would not necessarily pick up the meaning of that remark without explanation even if she did).
But yeah, “than, you for your help but also I need to be alone now” probably stings right now. And it’s easier to go unload that on Jennifer than it is to unload it on someone she knows is emotionally agitated and in intense physical pain.
The problem is that Jennifer is actually very agitated too, but Dorothy don’t knows that… Good thing that a fight between the two is totally impossible even to think.
I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, want it to scan better, but sadly neither Dotty Keener nor Dorothy Keener quite fit the rhythm when you use them to replace the words “Shia LaBeouf”.
So instead I’ll focus on Jennifer’s VERY important and accurate point made in panel 5.
How about “Dorothy K”?
*checks*
Yup, that works, thank you (and this is why I leave parodies to the smart commenters)
Yes, you’ve played this effect on your head at 2nd panel
…Dorothy, what the hell did you cancel in order to bring Joyce to get her med. And why is it related to Yale ?
Jennifer: You’re tearing me apart!
I like how Dorothy is mad that Joyce seems to prefer Jennifer and that Joyce was mad at Dorothy for being too controlling and omnipresent, and Dorothy’s reaction is to go yell at Jennifer for only being around occasionally.
It’s not Dorothy’s job to be Joyce’s full-time carer, and Joyce neither needs nor wants one.
What Joyce needs is some space to deal with her problems at her own pace and on her own terms. If her pace isn’t “fast enough” for other people, those people can go screw.
While that is true, you know as well as I that, left to her own devices, Joyce will simply continue to deny that there is any problem and continue to suffer in silence. (Possibly until it kills her, depending on whether there’s a deeper, more dangerous cause behind her painful periods.) Whether or not friends/family should intervene when they can see that someone they love has a problem is honestly a bigger debate that’s difficult to have a concrete answer for.
Very sad and very true.
Does Joyce WANT help? She says she doesnt so we have to assume so. Does she NEED help? The glasses incident alone shows that, yes, she does. What kind of help is uo for debate.
That’s not what she’s yelling at Jennifer for.
It’s the getting mad at Dorothy for not taking care of Joyce properly when she’s not trying to do it herself.
Both Dorothy and Jennifer think Joyce does need someone to take care of her – rightly or wrongly, they agree on that.
Billie literally said it was Dorothy and Becky’s jobs to be Joyce’s full time carers so I’d say some anger is pretty justified
Jennifer literally did not say what you literally said she literally said.
Only vaguely?
*tents fingers* Go on… o3o
Well, glad to see Joyce’s totally-not-attraction is returned. That is some unexamined jealousy right there. Also, Jennifer definitely has a type when it comes to women. Also good to see.
Orrrrrrr maybe you can go fuck yourself, Dorothy. Jennifer didn’t “take control”. She put Joyce in control. The reason why you taking care of Joyce takes all that work is because you refuse to do the same.
This, so very much. Maybe Dorothy could let Joyce control her own life a bit instead of acting like a helicopter mom to her.
I’m not sure how well the control thing applies, since Jennifer handily avoided telling Joyce what the most likely outcome of the doctor’s visit would be, and then peaced right out when the thing that Dorothy and Becky knew would be an issue did in fact become an issue.
And considering Jennifer did that after scolding them for “not fixing this”, I don’t think she’s really in any kind of superior position. She agreed that an intervention was necessary.
DID it become an issue? Did Joyce actually freak out about it at the time? We don’t actually know; we never saw it.
Hussy pills, hussy pills, hussy pills
“Fixing this” isn’t acting like Joyce is 17 months old intead of 17 years, unless you intend to spend the rest of your mutual lives “fixing this”. “Fixing this” is making sure Joyce is aware of her options and then letting her make the calls.
She…what? She literally did not do that. JOYCE kicked her out of the room because she didn’t want to discuss her reproductive organs with Jennifer in the room. Jennifer then WAITED for her to be finished, made sure she was good before heading back to her own dorm, and then checked up on her later in the day. It’s now the next morning, and Jennifer has her own stuff to be doing.
That’s not ‘peacing out’, its literally how anyone with a life will act when assuming that someone else has agency and their own stuff going on, but still wants to be supportive. This is entirely normal.
I didn’t think this before, but after this strip and more thought, I think Billie might have actually done better with the prescription pickup than Dotty did. Probably go the “no one’s going to care almost every woman on campus takes birth control they’re not going to remember your face, okay we’re here tell them your name,” as opposed to Dorothy (and Becky) kiiiiiind of feeding the insecurity by instead taking the “we’ll prove you’re not a hussy!’ route.
I honestly think she would have. This is gonna sound bad, but: Joyce is susceptible to peer pressure. For all that she has clearly picked up, at this point, that Jennifer is a hot flaming mess, she also still thinks she’s really cool, and she likes her and wants to be her friend, and wants Jennifer to think of her as a friend. “Billie is my cool friend who obviously knows ALL ABOUT the hussy pills and how to score them and she says it’s NBD and no one will think twice about me getting them, so I’ll just follow her lead even though I’m still deeply uncomfortable about all of this. I don’t want her to think I’m weird,” would probably have gone smoother than this.
It’s not the healthiest way to make choices, and the stress would still have been present, just more self-contained…but her other friends poking at Joyce’s insecurities and stress about this so that they kept coming out doesn’t seem to have alleviated them at all, just upped the drama quotient by stressing out Dorothy, too.
*Acting* like getting a birth control wasn’t a big deal, actually modeling that for her, would have been more effective than constantly vocally reassuring her that of course it’s not a big deal, there’s nothing to worry about, I promise this isn’t going to hurt a bit, sweetie! When you tell someone it’s not going to hurt a bit! they’re much more sensitized to the possibility that it WILL hurt.
Alternatively, Joyce thinks of “Billie” as “…always trying to be helpful, but in a way where she’d kinda botch it and make you feel better about yourself.”
And specifically wanted “Billie” instead of “Jennifer”.
I mean, that was what I was alluding to when I said she’s clearly aware by now that Jennifer is a mess. But she’s expressing a lot of affection and appreciation for Jennifer’s presence the same time she’s calling her on her too-cool act.
It’s hard to articulate, but I think if Joyce didn’t put any stock in Jennifer’s superior knowledge of stuff like birth control—which, yes, I’m pretty sure she DID know was going to be the likely suggestion from a doctor for handling her debilitating periods—she wouldn’t have agreed to go with Jennifer so quickly. (Cause the thing about Jennifer is that her judgement overall is pretty crap, but she does have a lot of experience-based knowledge that is real and valuable even if a lot of it was probably acquired by making bad decisions.)
Damn Dorothy mastered Ultra Instinct
Dorothy— taking care of Joyce is not your job. But you probably won’t learn to avoid too close friendships with the Joyces of the world for another decade or two like, in your time. (100 years from the readers perspective.)
It isn’t, but this is still a fair complaint to make, since Jennifer yelled at her for not doing it properly.
It’s too bad she didn’t realize it when Jennifer was first shaming her (and Becky and Sarah).
At this strip’s time scale, we’re talking geological ages more than centuries.
Daily reminder of how everyone in college is constantly horny
(Well cept dina but that is not a ‘requirement’ for her to be passionate with becky lol)
i mean, if you’re safe and such, might as well use it as a chance to get it outta your system so to speak.
Jennifer needs help.
Also Dorothy is making a lot of assumptions about Jennifer’s intents regarding helping Joyce with her period suggestion, we already know she checked in on Joyce afterwards, who’s to say that, knowing the while appointment was emotionally draining on Joyce and that the birth control wouldn’t help her immediately, she was planning on giving Joyce a few days before offering to help her pick it up
As opposed to Dorothy’s “you gotta do it right this second” style of helping
Thinking about it Dorothy doesn’t give Joyce a chance to process all the big changes in her life it’s no wonder Joyce got overwhelmed and is now lashing out
A lot of people giving Dorothy crap and…I can’t argue, she’s several bits too controlling. I mean Dorothy is still a LITTLE right in how Jennifer ditched again(plus she was no help when Joyce was diagnosed with autism) but still she’s kinda pushing here.
“Jennifer ditched”
I know the flashback chapter skewed things a bit for us but please remember that Jennifer taking Joyce to the doctor literally happened yesterday in universe, Jennifer hasn’t had enough time to ditch
(Also side note, Joyce has not yet been diagnosed with Autism, she’s gotten a referral to see a specialist to maybe be diagnosed)
Oh shit, you’re right… I don’t think Dotty yelling at Jennifer is uncalled for (Jennifer did snark at the group, doing her whole “Guess I’m the component one again” schtick) but now it does seem a bit… Ehhhh
First thing in the morning the next day Dotty does a Joyce Thing. Second thing in the morning, Dotty scolds Billie for abandoning them forever in their hour of greatest need.
That is….kind of what happened, isn’t it.
And Jennifer didn’t just ditch? She made a point of following up with Joyce after her appointment, after classes. She even had a stand-off with Sarah over it!
Sure, maybe she’s GONNA ditch again, buf honestly, I’ve argued before that that wouldn’t make her evil; as long as she’s clear and honest with Joyce about what Joyce can expect from her in terms of ongoing support, it’s not the worst thing in the world to step in to help someone in crisis when they need an immediate, concrete intervention, but not to commit to being the long-term support. The lady who drove me and my dog to the vet when she got hit by a car didn’t agree to stay with me and pay the vet bills, she just drove me to the vet, and that saved my dog’s life! I got no complaints about that!
Also, while it’s understandable that Dorothy isn’t aware of this, since she’s not omniscient, Joyce and Jennifer have already talked about the distance Jennifer put between them, and it’s Joyce’s call how handle that. Not Dorothy’s. (I do think Dorothy is venting her own Joyce-frustrations on Jennifer in this strip more than she’s trying to manage the Joyce-Jennifer friendship the way she’s kiiiiinda been trying to manage Joyce and Becky lately, or else I would say well, that’s a troubling pattern!)
I’ll half give you the first point as YES it has…. been just a day(this comic distorts my perception of time) but I still feel Jen keeping herself at lengths from the group a detractor.
ALSO… doesn’t that count as a diagnosis? Learn something new every day. Either way,she and Dotty didn’t handle it well. Kinda a toss up on who was worse, Jen was more crass, but Dotty’s “masking” comment felt like unintentional neuro-splaining.
Said comment is to alongcameaspider. Willis, you gotta change to Disqus, this is madness.
Lmao I love this interaction
Dorothy with the misplaced rage and Jennifer being Billie
And now we know what really attracted Jennifer to Ruth, bottled up rage and contempt.
The thing that bugged me about Dorothy strong-arming Joyce into picking up her meds first thing in the morning while fussing at her for not getting them the day before is, birth control is not some magic drug that instantly eliminates all your pain and so you must start taking it right away OR ELSE. Hell, the ones she’ll be taking while she’s still on her period are placebos, anyway.
Point being, there was no reason for Becky, Dorothy, and Sarah to fuss at Joyce about not immediately picking them up, and there was no reason for Dorothy to drag her out of bed and push her into a stressful situation while she was still miserable, exhausted and in pain.
And sure, maybe Joyce shouldn’t be so snippy with the people who’re trying to help her (with varying degrees of success), but look. As an autistic person who had horrible endometriosis and poly-cystic ovarian syndrome that eventually necessitated a complete hysterectomy, I’m speaking from experience when I say that being in that much pain to start with and then having to deal with additional stress, anxiety and pressure and people getting up in my face on top of that did not usually put me in the best of moods, either, and it always took me a long time to recover afterwards.
On the whole, I feel like Dorothy, Becky, and Sarah really do mean well (if begrudgingly so in Sarah’s case, lol), and a lot of Joyce’s anger and frustration right now is coming from her physical pain and discomfort, and they probably all need to just give each other some breathing room right now.
I agree that there are a lot of good intentions leading to bad outcomes. It seems like Dorothy thought the meds would help immediately and that’s why she was pushing for Joyce to start taking them right away. She obviously things Joyce isn’t capable of taking care of herself and that’s why she appoints herself as the mom-friend.
Like, they’re good friends to her. I do love them all (Becky a little less…) But damn, they need to CHILL. I’m tired of people treating Joyce like a toddler, and not letting her make her own choices. They really like laying in on her when she’s just waking up too… Get on Joyce for not respecting boundaries (which she changed), but they don’t respect hers either. It’s like she gets the illusion of choice and it’s just a little weird.
I’ll admit I have more empathy for Joyce on this matter, but I am starting to see Dorothy’s side too thanks to the new strip and the comments. I just don’t think she HAS to do any of this. Also learned that this all happened in the course of like, one day.
Is she just attracted to conflict??
Everyone here going Joyce/Dorothy/Jennifer are either perfect and good/terrible and evil people with no grey. They’re all dumb college kids, full tilt. No one is perfect.
They don’t have the collective wisdom of the comments section, who are divorced from the events and pulling judgments on the each person’s character while forgetting that living in the moment from that character’s perspective kinda makes it hard to make good decisions. Dorothy, Joyce, and Jennifer can’t press pause on what’s going down to think it thru. They don’t have 24 hours like we do between strips, but a lot of people here are expecting them to make the perfect decision anyway.
Yes exactly! I wish there was less talk about who is in the wrong and more talk about the nuances of the situation and what it means.
Do you need someone to talk, Dorothy?
I’m glad she’s calling out Billie on this. Billie’s “swoop in and take control while looking down on everyone else” was bugging me. She really needs a reality check on herself.
Let it out, Dorothy. Jennifer probably had this coming. The venting is a bonus (and IMO, more important).
Ah.
“Take care of Joyce.”
Hm.