What’s sad about it is that’s not even how you say veggie tray in French. A plate of raw veggies is called, “Des crudites.” To call it a “crudité” would mean, “a veggiated”. It’s using “veggie” or “veggify” as a verb. Perhaps there are some French people who might eat “a veggiated.” But I’ve never met one.
Are we speaking French? No, we’re speaking English. It no longer matters what French speakers would say, because once the word has been borrowed into English it is an English-language word and Anglophones can do what we like with it.
Well, that’s true, of course. I had just never heard the word “crudité” in English before so I assumed Oz was trying to speak French. Maybe it is an English word that I just am unfamiliar with.
Like how the word “Lingerie” is different in English than in French, even though it’s a word with French origin.
What translation is that? I read just a lovely translation of all her works, a while back, that put them all together as if they were one giant epic poem. That fragment reminds me of that book.
I want giant size oatmeal raisin cookie with apple bits, molasses, ginger, cinnamon, cardamom, ground cloves, nutmeg and allspice! (Basically, an oatmeal raisin ginger snap.)
I don’t think I have had Wegmans oatmeal raisin brand I’m not opposed to oatmeal raisin I think it’s an okay cookie but It’s the kind of cookie where if it’s there I’ll eat it but it’s not something I’ll go out an buy.
The sketchbook interpretation makes more sense, and is more or less what my naive interpretation was too, but now that Decidedly Orthogonal says it I can’t unsees it.
No, no. It’s fine. Dorothy is, as you pointed out, the Mom Friend. So obviously you treat her like a mom: Completely ignore her as soon as you can get away with it. Give it a little more time, and maybe she’ll even cut off all contact with Dorothy too, like a proper mother.
According to Walmart.com, that’s the going rate for a single Kraft Macaroni and Cheese Dinner package. Even the off-brand is $1.25 per package at Dollar-and-a-Quarter Tree.
I’m a little worried, and Dorothy might be too… thinking of. that epic tell off she got earlier. Sooner or later Dorothy will realize she needs to avoid Joyce and refuse all of her sulky-teen demands, to get some respect at least.
Is it avoid or mind her own business because she pretty much just volunteered Joyce again for what she thought wad right without any agency so she deserves a cold shoulder imo. She didn’t accept the memo she had been given repeatedly.
Ditto. It kinda feels like my brain has zoomed in on one thing so nothing else is being perceived.
I hope all these strips of ND-related faux pas is leading to a kind of revelation about how Joyce isn’t “uwu touch of the Tism ^3^” but that it genuinely affects her social, mental and educational life.
It’s not something I’ve seen in any media before (except kinda in Heartbreak High), I think DW would be really fucking good at it (he’s pretty much proven to me he can be trusted with tough topics), and it’d make a lot of the comment-drama worth it.
My brain does that to me all the time. It’s not that I mean to be rude or that I’m deaf, my brain just has considerable lag time sometimes between receiving data from my senses that someone has appeared and began engaging in conversation with me, and alerting my higher brain functions that the data has arrived. I once was reading a book only to find when I finished that my mum had just painted all my toenails without me even noticing. Surprised that didn’t raise any flags tbh…
This is how I used to function almost all the time and it has taken considerable effort and practice and people pointing it out to NOT do this. My brain fixates on things super easily and then forgets the rest of the world is there. So, much sympathy for Joyce’s obliviousness here, and involuntary cringing for her too.
I get the feeling Dorothy is about to snap and tear into Joyce. The sheer disrespect from Joyce is off the charts. A lot of people complain about Dorothy and her “momming” Joyce, but Joyce’s been abusing it.
I’ve said it a million times: Dorothy is not obligated to “mom” Joyce and if she finds Joyce’s behaviour annoying or ungrateful then Dorothy can just…stop.
That, and if she jumps to the conclusion that Joyce’s lack of immediate expression of gratitude is down to being deliberately rude, it is only further proof that she is not as well-versed in neurodiversity as she thinks she is. 😑
I’ll just pop in right here to say I get what you mean 😀 Cuz I’m sure there’s some ways to construe that last sentence that could be more unfavorable.
Just wanna get that in there before this becomes a thing.
Yeah. I get why Walky pictured her as a puppy. I’m very puppy-like in the same way. I just mom and mom and mom, often unsolicited. It’s a form of begging for validation — if someone says, “Thank you, you really helped me out there!” it’s as essential for a praise junky like me and Dorothy as petting and affection are for doggies. (My puppy was especially needy for attention and affection and reassurance this morning. I think compulsive momming may come from a similar insecurity.)
I kinda think Dorothy has gone way too far in “momming” Joyce for a long time now, and she really needs to stop that and let Joyce figure things out and do things for herself already.
Oh yes, totally. In fact, she needs not only to let Joyce figure things out for herself, she needs to allow Joyce to fail at doing so and deal with sorting out the resulting mess by herself, as well.
There is a line going in between helping and enabling, and Dorothy has stepped way over that line in her interactions with Joyce, and despite having the best of intentions, at this point, she’s not really helping Joyce, but rather teaching her learned helplessness. One could even go so far as suspect an underlying, probably unconscious, goal of making Joyce so dependent on her that she can never really “leave”.
A behavior that we, not surprisingly, sometimes see from mothers, afraid of losing their “babies”.
This is more of the infantilization we just saw Joyce pushing back against when she was getting it from Becky a moment ago. “Here, you said you want to do this but you’re clearly not capable of making it happen yourself so I did all the work you’re welcome“. It’s more of her trademark mom-friending that Joyce once again didn’t ask for.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Dorothy just shoves the sketchpad into her hands and storms off.
Asking for something is not overstepping, because Dorothy is capable of saying “no”. Doing something that people have NOT asked you to do is overstepping, because you’re making it harder for them to say “no”.
I agree with Wellerman here. Joyce isn’t being disrespectful here, she can’t hear/see Dorothy at the moment because her brain is latched onto something else.
It’s really common with ND people including Autistic folk. You can look up joint attention for a bit of info. Most of the info is about children, but adults can have difficulty with it as well. It’s an area that I still struggle with a lot because I also have ADHD which is just general attention fuckery plus sensory regulation problems. It feels like if you’re watching a video and you zoom in on one detail you miss anything happening elsewhere on the screen. It can happen whether you’re focused on an external detail (like when someone is fixated on a video game and doesn’t respond to their name) or because you’re focused on something happening inside your mind, which looks like the case here/
I used to be like that, but life trained me into trying to be aware of everything at all times. Consequently, I’m no longer capable of focusing on something for extended periods the way I used to be. From my point of view, I’ve got more of an “attention deficit” now than I used to – so much is being wasted on being ready to notice things that usually aren’t happening.
This, exactly. My hubby is diagnosed ADHD as an adult, and it has made a huge difference in my perception of his attention-focus as “rudeness”. As in, I don’t perceive it thus any more. But it is still frustrating in the moment for me, I am working on my understanding and patience.
I dunno, I said this before but Dorothy had been told off from doing the thing she just did… she basically voluntold Joyce for something just because she thought it was what should be done. Still hadn’t given Joyce much agency here so my thoughts is she deserves this. If she’s going to ignore boundaries, then her mommies can be ignored too.
I’m torn between being excited Joyce feels some reason to look for Joe and feeling a lil bad for Dotty here. Being ignored sucks. But hey, so does being micromanaged…
Joyce isn’t being shitty here, her brain is just entirely focused on something else, so she hasn’t heard or seen Dorothy yet.
See above for more detail, but it’s a pretty good depiction of a common experience Autistic and other ND people have which is mis-interpreted by others as rudeness.
I’m actually p surprised at the comments section. I’m ND, but a lot of NT people I know have experienced focusing too hard / tunnel visioning on something at some point in their life, so it’s wild how many people are upset with Joyce.
Neurdivergent, meaning people whose cognitive and emotional functioning doesn’t align with the functional expectations of their environment (eg Autistic, ADHD, Tourettes, intellectual disabilities), and Neurotypical refers to people whose cognitive/emotional functioning is defined as the norm.
Definition is straight out of my disability assignment
Dorothy is demanding payment for something she bought unprompted, and you think Joyce is the one doing something wrong because she didn’t immediately look at her?
I mean you looked like you were busy talking to Dina at the time. You guys had a cute moment and held hands. Jeez Joyce, haven’t you got your fill of Joe for today?
I don’t usually like getting on board ships but – she’s thinking about him! she wants to spend more time with him!
also, yay dorothy. I’m not sure what time of day it is, but if it’s less than a couple hours away already having the supplies might mean the difference to making it or not. hopefully she doesn’t get grumpy if joyce has other plans though, I assume joyce can use them eventually.
If anything it makes the job easier. She’s basically got intimate experience that the other artists in the room can only dream of. Nothing helps you with form than having felt your subject in your guts.
Starting some Discussion maybe in this shit tonight
So, I’ve always been one of the folks kinda leery about the League of Evil Dads arc, while it was going on it felt really weird and artificial and hard to believe, but last night I followed a link and reread it as a whole and like…
…Okay, it’s still not the same tone as a lot of the rest of the comic but at a normal pace it’s actually got a fucking great action movie made of amazing character moments vibe? Like I think it might actually be one of the best character writing arcs in the comic and possibly THE best that shows off so many characters? The quips and twists hit different in a way where I want to suspend my disbelief now because I’m able to keep the emotional rhythm of the story.
It’s really kind of blown my mind a little and opened up a lot of questions in my mind about the formatting for different kinds of stories and the way pacing affects emotion in fiction.
Yup. As someone with a pretty great memory, and a bit of a robotic emotional core, the pacing of webcomics tends not to be a problem for me, because I can rewind myself to the previous day and resume the emotional journey. But it’s definitely an issue that I’ve seen a lot of people have and it’s a very understandable one.
It’s interesting to compare it to comic books, too, where each issue comes out on a monthly cadence, has about 30 pages, each of which has about the same amount of story content* as a webcomic strip: on average, you get the same amount of story over time, but you experience the entire month in one go. (I wish I was familiar enough with the serial-fiction scene to approximate average story content per time period there, too, since that should be an interesting point of comparison.)
* Please note that I am not comparing artist effort, which is a massively different measure. But, like, I also read Girl Genius and Dresden Codak and Subnormality, so.
I am impressed. I am a mega-fan of the Foglios, but GG is so plot-dense I find it impossible to follow the narrative in any doses smaller than graphic novel collection.
Dorothy. Dorothy, honey. I’m saying this for your own good.
You gotta stop giving 120% of yourself. You’ve only got 100% to give, you’re just borrowing that extra 20% from your future self. Eventually that debt is going to come back with interest.
Dorotht, googling would have been more than enough, you’re just going to burn yourself out, DOROTHY PLZ–
(And Joyce, I’m saying this for your own good: go kiss Joe.)
Does Dorothy have too much free time? Like why she doing all this? Me thinks she’s trying to compensate for the fact she’s bout to bounce to Ivy League land and hasn’t told Joyce and is guilty about it cause she knows Joyce won’t take it well. Being extra nice and motherly might soften the blow or something.
Good thinking. She seems to be abasing herself before Joyce here in a way that is not at all appreciated. I am a little worried Joyce is so mad at Dorothy (despite the bizarre plea to get her into a drawing class) that she is going to straight up shun Dorothy. Joyce is so hot and cold, maybe it would be helpful to her to drop both her scowl and the triangle smile of her troubled youth for Dina’s 😐
I actually think she does. Last semester was Dorothy burnout as she skipped studying early on to chase Amazi-girl around and bang Walky until she cornered herself into a cram situation that made her noticeably miss out on developments and showering. I don’t know if she has a lighter course load or just figured out a more functioning study session but she’s had time to dick around developing comics, show up early to R.A. meetings, attend dead mom parties, and set her ex up with the black and straighter version of Joyce. I think Dots must be bored out of her mind to busy body this hard.
…I think Dorothy decided not to go to Yale, and is doing this to make herself feel better about “letting herself down”. (“See? I’m useful! I’m useful! I can still be worth something! Please tell me I’m useful!”)
This is just Dorothy. Joyce wanted her to look into it. This is how she does that. She’s not going to go halfway just because she’s doing it for someone else.
It’s not doing things halfway to just do what you said you would. This is just going beyond for no reason. I’m actually starting to worry for Dorothy putting so much of herself into stuff like this.
See to me is the difference of agency: please research my options versus buy stuff for me and decide I owe you food in exchange. She was chewed out for being up her butt… seems like the favor still placed Dorothy firmly up her butt.
I was like this in college and I don’t know why. I mean underlying was probably the feeling that I was unlikable unless I was helping other people and felt that putting up with me was somewhat transactional. Adding to that people like Joyce did tend to glom onto me and ask for too much (which they would then resent later, and years later I would get an apologetic email). Now I deeply avoid people (other than my husband) who seem to put me on a pedestal or want to get too close.
Everyone I’ve met who has been through this Dorothy phase has had a bad home live growing up (there are even Twitter threads!) but I don’t think that’s Dorothy’s situation.
But in terms of why did I sacrifice things I wanted to do to help people … I did because they asked or complained they needed help and we were friends. I had a hard time saying no to anything, and I still cannot half-ass a job once I start.
True, Joyce did, and after an epic lashing out. If Dorothy had some self-respect and self-preservation she would have told Joyce to shove it. Especially since she’s so busy! Dorothy is hanging in by her fingernails to what’s left of her sanity after that kidnapping perhaps.
I still don’t think Dorothy has the charisma to get elected to high office, but if she learns how to take and analyze surveys she might have a future as a pollypster.
…yeah I’m with Jennifer, Dottie is a bit too imposing. Even if they weren’t dating to be dating, buying someone class supplies before they agree to it is a BIT much.
Panel 3, that’s a comma after Joyce’s name, right? Dorothy just launches into her two panels worth of talk without waiting for any acknowledgement from Joyce that she’s even there, let alone that Joyce (arms crossed, looking away, seemingly in thought) is ready to engage and respond to her.
Joyce then finishes her thought, vocalizes her conclusion, and will probably respond to Dorothy next panel. Is she really being egregiously rude here?
Yeah, Dorothy really is a bourgeois busybody with this girl scout badge mentality that gets her motivated to help Joyce in the wrong ways and for all the wrong reasons. 🙄
I’m starting to see what people mean when they express their irritation with the supposed black and white comments now… They really are black and white! It doesn’t look like Joyce intentionally ignored Dorothy at all here, but people are acting like she’s a disrespectful CHILD. Emphasis on child because again, that’s how these comments seem to see her- a petulant child who needs to respect her mother???? It’s getting weird up in here.
Truly, it’s reminding me of sad and irritating things!!! Reading Joyce related comments isn’t always the happiest time. But I think I may have misread one comment- tone over text is hard ;; but what I said still applies!
I haven’t really seen those comments, but I’m reading the next morning? Maybe they’ve been moderated? I haven’t read the entire comments section though.
I will say, I get incredibly irritated if someone does that, because I have auditory processing issues and ADHD, so if I’m not specifically addressed or front loaded with a “Hey, check this out” (especially by someone outside my FOV), I’ll miss the context for whatever somebody is saying. Which means I have to ask them to repeat themselves, which nobody involved ever wants, and sometimes they’ll completely refuse to repeat the context and instead decide only the last four words are worth saying again.
Always always always make sure the person you’re talking to is paying attention before you start jabbering, unless you just don’t care if they actually heard you. No exceptions.
I know Joyce asked Dorothy to help find life-drawing classes for her, but she could at least wait for Joyce to decide whether to enroll in one of those classes before buying supplies for her and such. I feel like Dorothy really needs to learn to stop “momming” for her friends and let them do things for themselves and make their own choices already.
Join forces how? Politically I’m very left-wing, but I’m not that good at art. I literally made this avatar in MS Paint, by combining this really good artwork of Twilight Sparkle with the flag of the Communist Party of Vietnam.
Well, the sketch book isn’t that big a deal. If Joyce decides she doesn’t want to continue the classes, she can still utilize the sketchbook since she’s working on a comic for the newspaper. She could use it for practice, for designing characters or outfits for her comic… I’d say it’s a gift that’d be easy to use in any context, not just life drawing. It’d be different if she got her, say, some modeling clay because Joyce expressed interest in clay art, because if she did lose interest then she doesn’t have much else to do with clay. But a sketchbook and some drawing tools (presumably pencils, maybe charcoal if you wanna get fancy)? She can still use that.
Yeah, Joyce has demonstrated she’s pretty committed to drawing her comic! That sketch pad will absolutely get used, one way or another.
With the past context of Dorothy going overboard or presuming too much in being helpful, you could say this is another example of that, and maybe it is? But I think it could just as easily be—an olive branch isn’t quite right, because they’re not fighting—an attempt at a thoughtful gesture for a friend who’s stressed out and unhappy, after a not-great experience that morning with the birth control pills, on what SHOULD be a less-fraught subject, in an area where Joyce DID ask Dorothy for help.
I think Dorothy’s biggest error here is having a class picked out for tonight, not to mention talking to the instructor on Joyce’s behalf. Especially knowing Joyce may have autism and having done research on it, she should know that randomly dropping a commitment on an autistic person with short-notice is really unhelpful and overwhelming.
I feel like she could have come with the info on the class and offered to do the other parts together (contact the instructor and buy supplies). Honestly I think shopping for hobby supplies with your friend is actually a really fun idea.
Dorothy is mom-ing so much she’s missing out on bonding and friend stuff fthey could do together.
That a good point! I was thinking it’s less of an overstep to buy supplies if the class is imminent, because that’s one less barrier to Joyce being able to do—it takes a potential task off Joyce’s plate when she’s short on the spoons to do it herself (and again, those supplies will almost certainly get used even outside a classroom setting, because the comic strip is not a whim to Joyce, it’s something she’s demonstrated a very serious interest in following through on).
But…yeah. This *could’ve* been a fun thing they did together, which is the kind of time Joyce has shown that she wants to have with Dorothy! It’s a missed opportunity.
On a slightly different note, I dislike it a lot when people buy things on my behalf that I then have to pay them back for, if I didn’t ask them to do it in the first place, but Dorothy saying “you can pay me back in boxes of Mac and Cheese if you want” makes it feel low-stakes, and like it’s an IOU that can be redeemed by exactly the kind of socializing Joyce does like to do with Dorothy, which is actually pretty sweet.
Anyway! Good intentions, possibly mixed results, for Dorothy here. I’m curious how Joyce will react to it all.
I think that buying in exchange for stuff was what got my hackles up too. Yeah, it’s low stakes, but Dorothy has been pushing boundaries and was asked to do X and proceeded to impose what now feels like a requirement by doing Y. I would have intentionally ignored her a second while I counted to 10 in my head to formulate a at least semi-appreciative reply that would lead to a… please don’t do this again when I’m already being pressured.
That a good point! I was thinking it’s less of an overstep to buy supplies if the class is imminent, because that’s one less barrier to Joyce being able to do—it takes a potential task off Joyce’s plate when she’s short on the spoons to do it herself (and again, those supplies will almost certainly get used even outside a classroom setting, because the comic strip is not a whim to Joyce, it’s something she’s demonstrated a very serious interest in following through on).
Buying supplies creates an imbalance in favors, because Dorothy has spent both time and money into this, and now Joyce has to spend an equivalent amount to make the friendship equal again. It’s not okay to dump that on your friend, to create the perception of an obligation, unless they’ve actually asked you to do so.
Yeah, I agree! It raised my hackles for exactly that reason. But then I found them lowering, because the way Dorothy frames it the repayment options is something that it struck me that Joyce, specifically, might be cool with. It’s one of those things that can be fine specifically between friends, even if it’s very much a no for me. Which is why I’m curious to see how Joyce will take that!
When my sister and I lived in the same town and went out for coffee etc on a regular basis, we didn’t always negotiate who was paying each time. We had a very informal tally, and we did not balance things out with a strict 1:1 coffee ratio. It could be that she paid for the coffee, but I picked up the entire tip at lunch the next week, or put more towards groceries when we were shopping for a dinner we were going to make together. We mostly kept it monetary expense for monetary expense, but sometimes it would be, “I’m buying you lunch because you moved my car for street cleaning while I was out of state”. This is all totally cool, if you have these as established relationship norms! So I’m interested in whether Dorothy and Joyce have that sort of comfort level/understanding or not. If not, Dorothy is overstepping a lot…but they’re pretty close, so maybe they do.
Don’t get what commenters are worried about. Sure Dorothy will appreciate that Joyce has her priorities right and duly inform her that the guy modeling for this life drawing class is some J. Rosenthal.
Oh man, I hope you are right. I hope you are entirely right. I will pay money to see this. I will venmo DW the entire 6.30 AUD in my bank account to make it happen. And if that fails I will make it my damn self.
First of all, when you’re speaking to other people you should ensure you’ve gotten their attention first before you actually tell them things of import or that you expect a response to. This is not just a thing you should do with your ND friends, it’s a mannerly and sensible thing you should do with everybody.
Dorothy approached and said something to Joyce, and then kept talking even though Joyce didn’t even turn her way or otherwise respond. Even if Joyce is *deliberately* ignoring Dorothy here (and I don’t think she is – like other posters, I think Joyce has not yet registered that Dorothy is there and talking to her), Dorothy is still also not in the right.
With that said – Dorothy, honey, you gotta stop. Not just because it’s an inappropriate way to treat your friends, though it is, but because it’s an inappropriate way to treat yourself. This is not good. All that time and energy you’re investing on fixing Joyce? Take it and spend it on yourself. Because the *best case* scenario here is that Dorothy is going to burn herself out, and honestly, I’m starting to learn towards a more worst case scenario – Dorothy is using “gotta go, gotta mom!” as an excuse to avoid dealing with her own problems. This is not gonna end well.
As someone who is really good at just… tuning out of reality (to the point it took a coworker 5 minutes to get my attention as I stared blankly into space) yes, make sure you have my actual attention before continuing to speak to me.
Excited about what? About the fact that Joyce asked her to make a list of classes, and instead she steamrolled ahead and signed her up and got her all the supplies and books she’ll need?
That’s not something she should be excited about, because that’s not something she should have *done*.
Thank you. Between that and the “confirm my attention” pretty much summarizes why I feel gross about this page. Plus the “and now you can pay me back” expectation.
“You can pay me back in Mac and cheese dinners if you like” sounds awwwwfully close to date night. Between this and Joyce’s reaction to Joe being gone, I smell a bi relationship angle brewing.
Huh. People are talking about Dorothy checking Joyce out and I thought she was just looking at the sketch book that she was talking about. Then looking up and realizing that Joyce wasn’t listening…
Hey, remember yesterday when we all got to see Joyce and Dina resolving their conflict with a sweet moment and it turned out that maybe all the diatribes about how each of them were The Worst were maybe a bit premature?
Yeah, constantly. Mostly when a person is excessively negative about everything and just a downer to be around, but still laps up as much praise as they can fish for. Or when I’m losing at card games, have absolutely no way out of a jam, and the opponent shows no sign of ending their goddamn turn.
Dunno if Dorothy will go to the stupid university of her dreams, but if she does, I think the phone calls with Joyce will gradually decrease over time until they disappear, completely. Maybe she could continue to call or write to Becky and Sarah. But I think that once she’s away from Joyce she will want to distance herself more and more. This or realising she’s madly in love with her.
Dorothy, I really, really hope that you were already at the store for your own reasons and picked up some stuff for Joyce because it was convenient. That’s a “nice friend” thing to do. Making a trip solely for Joyce? That’s “helicopter parent” levels.
Making the call to the professor I’m more sanguine on- calls like that, no matter how routine, tax a lot of my mental resources, but they seem like the sort of thing Dorothy thrives on. So that’s more acceptable IMO.
This would at first seem to be about Dorothy’s declining emotional state, but I think there is a larger plot going on in which Joyce and Joe get married because they make each other miserable and love to hate each other. The Nagging Wife is developing. Peg and Al Bundy. Misery loves company.
Yeah, call her out on having something else on her mind for five seconds. She’s trampling all over those boundaries by thinking about someone other than Dorothy.
what are some neurodivergent behaviours us commenters engage in that are not depicted in the many years of this comic? (this isn’t an indictment against the author, there are near infinite possibilities so it would be impossible to show or know them all)
I’ll start: I have a compulsion to begin and end staircases with my right foot, I’ll skip the last step when necessary. I have to fiddle with my own body so having ear piercings is the best because I can rotate them infinitely (I have a theory that if I didn’t have piercings I’d develop trichotillomania).
The sound or sight of people messing with their own nails is so uncomfortable, it makes me want to turn my skin inside out. Trimming my own nails is tolerable because I know the end result is having very short nails (ideal)
When I was a kid I used to skip the first and last step of the stairs because I had the odd notion that Lord Zedd from Power Rangers had trapped those steps. I forget exactly when I stopped.
Dina had a similar reaction to the dorm party way back when, but if things are just Too Loud for Too Long I will basically shut down and get incredibly, incredibly cranky.
All sounds, even pleasant ones, can become overbearing. So I can’t always listen to music, podcasts, or streamers. And yet sometimes there will be a song that I listen to exclusively for 72 hrs straight. Sound stimming is weird, man.
I can’t hop into a stream in the middle, I _have_ to be there at the beginning. This can be quite annoying when I miss the start of a stream by like 2 minutes.
The texture of cotton balls, some blankets, and some socks are Just No. Touching them gives me a weird feeling in my mouth, even if I don’t intend to put them anywhere near my mouth.
My blankets need some weight to them if I’m using them to sleep. Even if they’re otherwise perfectly serviceable and lure my cats.
Sour gummy candy has the perfect texture and the perfect taste for warding off depression.
For a while, I would only get out of bed on a multiple of 5 minutes. (8:30, 8:35, etc.) More recently, I will try to get the timestamps on (some) personal journal/blog entries to follow a similar pattern.
A while back, a friend finished a statement with “Look, I’m not going to lie about something like this, any more than I’m going to eat unsorted candy.” I added, “And half of you just nod” (in perfect understanding and agreement).
When I was very young and had learned to count, I had a compulsion almost to the point of a fetish to watch trains go by and count the cars. I had an aunt who used to live along a set of railroad tracks, and I almost gave her a heart attack one time when I was around seven or eight; I burst out of the house and ran toward the tracks – with her in hot but futile pursuit – to better see the cars and make my count.
Now, even though I’m past the age to collect Social Security, I still have that undeniable compulsion to count the cars on the train when I’m forced to stop at a railroad crossing.
This isn’t exactly a behavior, but it is a thing I’ve only heard about from a. a small number of autistic people and b. my mother and her mother:
I sometimes forget how to move. That’s not the right phrasing, but that’s what it *feels* like, like I want to get up or something, and I can picture all the steps, and I’m sending the impulse to the various muscles and… nothing happens. I just sit there/lie there/stand there.
If I’m not careful, when the signal finally goes through I’m liable to smack myself in the face.
Oh god, you do that too? It’s so annoying when I physically can’t get myself to act in any way. Like “Hi, thanks body, can we go now? I’m very hungry and have to use the bathroom, and it’s been like 47 minutes now.”
If I’m standing I sometimes can “jump-start” movement by letting myself lean forward so I have to catch myself and then can move again, but otherwise it’s just flipping annoying, and I’ve never figured out the actual thing that causes it.
And it’s not the most well-documented autistic trait out there either.
If Joyce is being rude right now (she isn’t), then it’s an extremely low-grade rudeness that doesn’t matter. Sometimes we aren’t the focus of somebody’s attention for a few seconds, and that’s fine.
Joyce, since becoming an apostate, has become significantly more self-centered, and not always in a positive way. When she was religious, she very often put her focus on other people, in ways that were harmful – dating Ethan to “fix” him, convincing Dorothy and others to go to church with her, butting into Jennifer’s drama when it wasn’t her business. The list goes on. There were selfish motivations for some of these, but consciously her focus was elsewhere. Now that Joyce has become an apostate and she realizes that it’s actually okay – healthy, even – to be self-centered, she’s become nothing but self-centered. Yesterday we saw a break in that trend when she stopped to think about how her words and actions have affected Dina, and then again today we see her become self-centered again. I’m certain she’ll come to find a healthy balance of focus on self/others, but right now she’s not quite there.
Dorothy, on the other hand, is very used to Joyce needing her and wanting her time. Last semester, Joyce would have killed for this level of attention from Dorothy, and… I think Dorothy kind of misses that attention. Dorothy’s neediness to be needed is showing very strongly here.
Thoughts? Have you all noticed the same things or am I full of it?
Yeah, to an extent. I’d add that Joyce the apostate has also butted into Ruth’s drama when it’s none of her business (I believe that was the point where Dorothy suggested that she was still thinking like an evangelical, just an an atheist one), but in general it’s definitely a pattern.
Hey remember when Joyce self-centeredly was distracted all day on the anniversary of Bonnie’s death because, with the revelation that Bonnie died by suicide, not of cancer, she was self-centeredly re-evaluating her behavior and concerned that she might have said unkind or insensitive things to Becky at the time? And she self-centeredly withheld her new atheism from Becky while Becky was talking about how comforting it was to know her mother was up in Heaven, looking down on them?
Self-reflection and concern for how her words and actions impact the people around her, ugh. SO toxic.
I feel like your comment is dripping with sarcasm!
I don’t think I said Joyce was toxic, or even spoke ill of her. Self-reflection and concern about words and actions are great things, and on that day, Joyce was being really receptive of the people around her and really being a good friend to Becky.
I mean, yeah, it was. I was indeed being very sarcastic. You said Joyce has “been nothing but self-centered” “since becoming an apostate”. There is something about that that I really do not like—the framing of Joyce being a less good person, since she’s left her faith, using a word (apostate) that’s rare to be used outside a religious framework, and mainly used by religious people, to describe someone who’s abandoned their faith, in a shameful way.
Apostate is a word Becky might use to describe Joyce, or that Carol or John might use, to describe Joyce. It’s not a word that Joyce has used for herself. It would be weird and unwelcome and not great for any of the non-Christian people Joyce knows to use to describe Joyce. “Apostate” has a specific religious connotation, and it’s not exactly neutral or flattering when applied to an 18-year-old girl who quit Christianity for the reasons Joyce quit Christianity.
Okay, that’s the context I was missing. I love the word apostate, because it sounds cool, and I am one myself. I wear it like a badge of pride. So I didn’t realize the negative connotations it might hold to others.
I don’t even know that it’s Dorothy needing to be needed so much as knowing Joyce is hurting and not really knowing how to help because she’s a fixer more than a listener. (I had to learn to ask do you want me to listen or to try to fix this?)
Just about all the characters have many moments of being self-centered (which is a people-y thing to be). If Joyce’s self-centered-ness is at all correlated with her atheism, it’s just as easily an artifact, that right now she’s hurting more, so she needs to turn inwards and take care of herself more than she used to.
Although, come to think of it, since she was raised as a fundie Christian girl, Joyce has never been allowed to think about herself or her needs, at all. She wasn’t allowed to make her own life plans. Nothing. (She even had a song about it.) She was supposed to want what God wanted for her, as communicated/demanded by her future husband.
She’s still the same extrovert she was, she still cares about other people — just, it may be a good idea for her to make up for that lost time and find out who she is, sketch out what she wants/needs, when nobody is going to shake her up and erase her up and show her who she has to be.
Joyce cares so much about other people! She spent a huge chunk of the past six months prioritizing a friend’s needs over her own, because that friend’s life was falling apart and they needed that level of support!
Now she’s struggling herself, and her support network is not really used to a Joyce who wants to explore new and less comfortably *selfless* parts of herself; almost any kind of assertion of her self-identity that isn’t centered around other people’s happiness just gets belittled as selfishness or immaturity.
I feel like people want Joyce to still be everything easy and sweet and fun about first semester Joyce, Just Without The Christian Fundamentalism. And now that she’s Joyce, Actively Moving Out Of The Christian Fundamentalism, folks are mad because she’s not being nice enough to everyone, all the time.
The thing that makes Joyce such a compelling character to me isn’t that she’s nice. It’s that *she wants to be a good person*, and she will change herself, even push herself in directions that unnerve and upset her, in pursuit of being a good person. And that kind of genuine emotional growth and change is impossible to achieve without self-reflection, without giving yourself the space to experience your feelings, to think widely and deeply, and yeah, to think specifically about yourself and who you are and what you want and what pleases you or frightens you or what makes you feel crazy or angry.
I want to clarify that I think there’s a distinction between self-centeredness, which is a focus on the self and one’s needs, and selfishness, which is prioritizing yourself at the expense of others. Self-centeredness isn’t necessarily a bad thing, is actually often healthy, and what Joyce needs to figure out how to do well at this point in her life.
I agree, Leorale! That’s kind of what I was wondering – if her fundie upbringing demonized her healthy and natural inclinations to consider her self and her own needs, since the needs of God (or, the authority figures in her life who’d benefit from her obedience) were what she was taught to prioritize.
I don’t know how to tell you this, but all those things you claim were Joyce putting the focus on other people were actually Joyce putting the focus on herself. Her religion, her beliefs, her, her, her.
Joyce is in denial of being horny for Joe, and being ignored by him is spurring that horniness further. Did you say something, Dotty? I thought we were taking a break.
The thing that makes all this Dorothy and Joyce stuff really hit is that I’ve been both of them. I’ve been the person going through a lot who ends up being a jerk to people trying to help. I’ve also been the person trying to help someone and getting nothing in exchange.
It’s not a great thing for either of em, and hopefully one or the other (or both!) realize it before things get too toxic. Cuz it super can if Dorothy doesn’t set healthy boundaries or Joyce doesn’t put together what’s happening.
I have faith that they’ll talk it through before things get too bad. There might be a heated moment or two, but they’ve both shown that they genuinely want what’s best for each other.
Joyce would have loved this last semester. I think they’ve both changed slightly (or maybe just Joyce) and haven’t gotten used to how things are now. Their friendship can still work out.
Here’s where I’d advise Dorothy to apply that energy to someone who pays. That’s not mom stuff (if it is, for you, congrats on your mom), that’s executive assistant stuff. Don’t waste it on someone who feels put out by it.
I like my mac with a dash of garlic powder and a tiny bit of black pepper. Of course, I’m an outlier who hasn’t had those cups. Just from the box as a side for baked chicken breast.
Replying to the alt-text if it’s $15 that would be like 8 or 9 mac and cheese dinners.
What I originally came to say was Joyce has difficulties shifting mental gears, kinda like I had when I was tending store in a multi-ethnic neighborhood where I spoke 3 languages of the melting pot counting English. Switching from one language to any of the others was jarring, like whiplash of the brain. So I get this.
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apathy via light dismissal
Target has mac & cheese for 55 cents!
Wegmans, 49!
That in bulk or singles?
Yes, but what about Oz’s favorite store, “Wegners”? /jk
I hear their veggie platters are overpriced.
You mean the Crudités?
What’s sad about it is that’s not even how you say veggie tray in French. A plate of raw veggies is called, “Des crudites.” To call it a “crudité” would mean, “a veggiated”. It’s using “veggie” or “veggify” as a verb. Perhaps there are some French people who might eat “a veggiated.” But I’ve never met one.
Are we speaking French? No, we’re speaking English. It no longer matters what French speakers would say, because once the word has been borrowed into English it is an English-language word and Anglophones can do what we like with it.
Well, that’s true, of course. I had just never heard the word “crudité” in English before so I assumed Oz was trying to speak French. Maybe it is an English word that I just am unfamiliar with.
Like how the word “Lingerie” is different in English than in French, even though it’s a word with French origin.
I wasn’t correcting Proxiehunter. I was laughing at Dr. Oz’s silly campaign commercial.
Laura:
From yesterday’s discussion, “bitter-sweet” appears in Sappho, Fragment 130:
Once more Love stirs me up, the limb-loosener,
a creature bitter-sweet, baffling
(That’s the entire fragment.)
Oh, lovely! Thank you!
What translation is that? I read just a lovely translation of all her works, a while back, that put them all together as if they were one giant epic poem. That fragment reminds me of that book.
Much obliged!
Published in Love Shook My Senses. Lesbian Love Poems, ed. Gillian Spraggs, London, The Women’s Press, 1998
Spraggs was the translator
Delight! Now I’ve gotta scurry off and find that book and read it. Soooo excited! Thank you. 😀
I’m glad I could help.
Now I want Wegmans brand chocolate chip cookies.
Same! Or oatmeal raisin!
I could really use an oatmeal raisin cookie right about now 😋🍪
I want giant size oatmeal raisin cookie with apple bits, molasses, ginger, cinnamon, cardamom, ground cloves, nutmeg and allspice! (Basically, an oatmeal raisin ginger snap.)
Binging with Babish just made ginger apple cookies that look damn good.
I don’t think I have had Wegmans oatmeal raisin brand I’m not opposed to oatmeal raisin I think it’s an okay cookie but It’s the kind of cookie where if it’s there I’ll eat it but it’s not something I’ll go out an buy.
I would like to subscribe to Emotions Read by Ana Chronistic for the foreseeable future. Thanks.
Seems Joe is handling their ‘relationship’ (whatever it is) better than Joyce. Also, maybe he wants some space after she salamandered his hand.
And is Dorothy check out Joyce’s breasts?
I figured Dorothy was looking down at the sketchbook she bought for Joyce.
The sketchbook interpretation makes more sense, and is more or less what my naive interpretation was too, but now that Decidedly Orthogonal says it I can’t unsees it.
The Cut Direct.
Oh great, now she has to flee to France.
On the one hand I want Joe and Joyce to get together. On the other hand I worry that it would mean the end of the web comic.
Fear not. This comic is eternal. Tho the stars shall fall from the sky,
the Dumbing shall continue
Are you kidding? They are going to be so stupid about so much together we’re going to freak out like the “My eyes!” guy from Spongebob.
Indeed. I envision lots of relationship drama that could keep the comic going for many years.
Don’t forget the “MY LEG!” guy!
Wow, Joyce, really just going to ignore your wife like that?
This is Mom Friend Dorothy, so ignoring her is even more rude than that.
No, no. It’s fine. Dorothy is, as you pointed out, the Mom Friend. So obviously you treat her like a mom: Completely ignore her as soon as you can get away with it. Give it a little more time, and maybe she’ll even cut off all contact with Dorothy too, like a proper mother.
Re: Alt Text, does that assume you’re buying in bulk, or is that how much single Kraft dinners cost in Indiana?
Racking frackum flag button in the wrong spot…
Kraft dinners are under $1. Cheaper if you buy the 6-pack.
According to Walmart.com, that’s the going rate for a single Kraft Macaroni and Cheese Dinner package. Even the off-brand is $1.25 per package at Dollar-and-a-Quarter Tree.
Market Basket still sold their store brand Kraft Dinner 2/$1 last time I checked.
I can oddly relate to Joyce here, sometimes I tunnel vision of certain thoughts and miss other things going on around me
Totally get how it could irritate Dorothy though
I’m a little worried, and Dorothy might be too… thinking of. that epic tell off she got earlier. Sooner or later Dorothy will realize she needs to avoid Joyce and refuse all of her sulky-teen demands, to get some respect at least.
Is it avoid or mind her own business because she pretty much just volunteered Joyce again for what she thought wad right without any agency so she deserves a cold shoulder imo. She didn’t accept the memo she had been given repeatedly.
Ditto. It kinda feels like my brain has zoomed in on one thing so nothing else is being perceived.
I hope all these strips of ND-related faux pas is leading to a kind of revelation about how Joyce isn’t “uwu touch of the Tism ^3^” but that it genuinely affects her social, mental and educational life.
It’s not something I’ve seen in any media before (except kinda in Heartbreak High), I think DW would be really fucking good at it (he’s pretty much proven to me he can be trusted with tough topics), and it’d make a lot of the comment-drama worth it.
My brain does that to me all the time. It’s not that I mean to be rude or that I’m deaf, my brain just has considerable lag time sometimes between receiving data from my senses that someone has appeared and began engaging in conversation with me, and alerting my higher brain functions that the data has arrived. I once was reading a book only to find when I finished that my mum had just painted all my toenails without me even noticing. Surprised that didn’t raise any flags tbh…
This is how I used to function almost all the time and it has taken considerable effort and practice and people pointing it out to NOT do this. My brain fixates on things super easily and then forgets the rest of the world is there. So, much sympathy for Joyce’s obliviousness here, and involuntary cringing for her too.
MY EYES ARE UP HERE, DOT.
“I am not a piece of meat!”
Is that a lower lip bite while gazing down from Dorothy in panel 4? btw thanks I didn’t notice the gaze shift the first time.
But did you notice panel 5 jealous stare when the word “Joe” was uttered? President Doris won’t let go of her girl without fight.
So much for the kisney scale of zero Dorothy told Joyce in the early days.
I get the feeling Dorothy is about to snap and tear into Joyce. The sheer disrespect from Joyce is off the charts. A lot of people complain about Dorothy and her “momming” Joyce, but Joyce’s been abusing it.
Joyce is just currently pre-occupied with her observation of Joe here, at least that’s how I read it.
I’ve said it a million times: Dorothy is not obligated to “mom” Joyce and if she finds Joyce’s behaviour annoying or ungrateful then Dorothy can just…stop.
That, and if she jumps to the conclusion that Joyce’s lack of immediate expression of gratitude is down to being deliberately rude, it is only further proof that she is not as well-versed in neurodiversity as she thinks she is. 😑
what? no. Dorothy’s overachieving, compulsive listmaking, perfectionism, etc etc is all perfectly normal.
just like Jennifer’s sexual orientation. :p
I’ll just pop in right here to say I get what you mean 😀 Cuz I’m sure there’s some ways to construe that last sentence that could be more unfavorable.
Just wanna get that in there before this becomes a thing.
yeah, you’re right. 😐 but I’m kind of stuck with those words because those are the ones these kids keep using.
If it’s any consolation, im bi ace and that last sentence helped me get it despite my broken sarcasm detector, so thanks 😊
But yeah, #EndTheTyrannyOfNormal or however humans these days say it
Yeah. I get why Walky pictured her as a puppy. I’m very puppy-like in the same way. I just mom and mom and mom, often unsolicited. It’s a form of begging for validation — if someone says, “Thank you, you really helped me out there!” it’s as essential for a praise junky like me and Dorothy as petting and affection are for doggies. (My puppy was especially needy for attention and affection and reassurance this morning. I think compulsive momming may come from a similar insecurity.)
“My puppy” being a real life canine.
Poor girl. She needs to get some self respect, at the very least to carve out some time for cartoons and studying.
Now I’m interpreting Dorothy’s downward glance in panel 4 as her waiting for head pets. Maybe even a scratch behind the ears.
I think compulsive momming may come from a similar insecurity.
If nothing else, running Joyce’s life for her will coincidentally give her no time to examine her own life choices.
I kinda think Dorothy has gone way too far in “momming” Joyce for a long time now, and she really needs to stop that and let Joyce figure things out and do things for herself already.
Oh yes, totally. In fact, she needs not only to let Joyce figure things out for herself, she needs to allow Joyce to fail at doing so and deal with sorting out the resulting mess by herself, as well.
There is a line going in between helping and enabling, and Dorothy has stepped way over that line in her interactions with Joyce, and despite having the best of intentions, at this point, she’s not really helping Joyce, but rather teaching her learned helplessness. One could even go so far as suspect an underlying, probably unconscious, goal of making Joyce so dependent on her that she can never really “leave”.
A behavior that we, not surprisingly, sometimes see from mothers, afraid of losing their “babies”.
Agreed. It’s not healthy for either of them.
Dorothy doesn’t snap and tear. She takes the high road and gets disappointed.
This is more of the infantilization we just saw Joyce pushing back against when she was getting it from Becky a moment ago. “Here, you said you want to do this but you’re clearly not capable of making it happen yourself so I did all the work you’re welcome“. It’s more of her trademark mom-friending that Joyce once again didn’t ask for.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Dorothy just shoves the sketchpad into her hands and storms off.
This one Joyce did specifically ask for. Dorothy should have said no.
Joyce asked Dorothy to research life drawing classes. She didn’t ask her to book them seats in a class and buy her art supplies.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/crowded/
You’d think Joyce would know by now how complete Dorothy is with requests. And seriously, Joyce could have looked up life drawing classes herself.
Yes, and she probably should have. However, that does not make Dorothy’s actions okay. She’s not “complete with requests”. She’s overstepping.
Joyce was also overstepping by asking this favor. This is not a healthy relationship.
Asking for something is not overstepping, because Dorothy is capable of saying “no”. Doing something that people have NOT asked you to do is overstepping, because you’re making it harder for them to say “no”.
I agree with Wellerman here. Joyce isn’t being disrespectful here, she can’t hear/see Dorothy at the moment because her brain is latched onto something else.
It’s really common with ND people including Autistic folk. You can look up joint attention for a bit of info. Most of the info is about children, but adults can have difficulty with it as well. It’s an area that I still struggle with a lot because I also have ADHD which is just general attention fuckery plus sensory regulation problems. It feels like if you’re watching a video and you zoom in on one detail you miss anything happening elsewhere on the screen. It can happen whether you’re focused on an external detail (like when someone is fixated on a video game and doesn’t respond to their name) or because you’re focused on something happening inside your mind, which looks like the case here/
It’s so wacky that it’s called attention deficit disorder, when I have plenty of ‘attention’… I just have very little control over where it goes.
I used to be like that, but life trained me into trying to be aware of everything at all times. Consequently, I’m no longer capable of focusing on something for extended periods the way I used to be. From my point of view, I’ve got more of an “attention deficit” now than I used to – so much is being wasted on being ready to notice things that usually aren’t happening.
This, exactly. My hubby is diagnosed ADHD as an adult, and it has made a huge difference in my perception of his attention-focus as “rudeness”. As in, I don’t perceive it thus any more. But it is still frustrating in the moment for me, I am working on my understanding and patience.
I think that would be
A bit of an overreaction, I doubt it
DiSrEsPeCt
I dunno, I said this before but Dorothy had been told off from doing the thing she just did… she basically voluntold Joyce for something just because she thought it was what should be done. Still hadn’t given Joyce much agency here so my thoughts is she deserves this. If she’s going to ignore boundaries, then her mommies can be ignored too.
I’m torn between being excited Joyce feels some reason to look for Joe and feeling a lil bad for Dotty here. Being ignored sucks. But hey, so does being micromanaged…
…I’m not even sure I get it as something not to be gotten.
Oh Joyce… please change yourself, it is hard to be on your side when you do shit like this.
It is, indeed, important to change yourself after you “do shit.”
Joyce isn’t being shitty here, her brain is just entirely focused on something else, so she hasn’t heard or seen Dorothy yet.
See above for more detail, but it’s a pretty good depiction of a common experience Autistic and other ND people have which is mis-interpreted by others as rudeness.
I’m actually p surprised at the comments section. I’m ND, but a lot of NT people I know have experienced focusing too hard / tunnel visioning on something at some point in their life, so it’s wild how many people are upset with Joyce.
I’m not familiar with “ND” or “NT,” what do they mean?
Neurdivergent, meaning people whose cognitive and emotional functioning doesn’t align with the functional expectations of their environment (eg Autistic, ADHD, Tourettes, intellectual disabilities), and Neurotypical refers to people whose cognitive/emotional functioning is defined as the norm.
Definition is straight out of my disability assignment
Dorothy is demanding payment for something she bought unprompted, and you think Joyce is the one doing something wrong because she didn’t immediately look at her?
I only got what was wrong when I read the comments
Woo Relating To Joyce Via Autism!
I mean you looked like you were busy talking to Dina at the time. You guys had a cute moment and held hands. Jeez Joyce, haven’t you got your fill of Joe for today?
She hasn’t got her fill of Joe yet but I bet she wants to. *nudge nudge* *wink emogi*
Every now and again I’ll lob up a comment like that hoping to get a response like that. Thanks for playing ball with me, Sirksome <3
Respect.
Gottem!
It sucks when your kid doesn’t appreciate what you do for them.
I giggled at this, thank you Sirksome
I don’t usually like getting on board ships but – she’s thinking about him! she wants to spend more time with him!
also, yay dorothy. I’m not sure what time of day it is, but if it’s less than a couple hours away already having the supplies might mean the difference to making it or not. hopefully she doesn’t get grumpy if joyce has other plans though, I assume joyce can use them eventually.
You’re so fine
I lose my mind
And the world seems to Disappear…
oh no.
OH NO.
JOE IS GONNA BE THE PEE-PEE MODEL, ISN’T HE????
That would be awkward considering he’s had sex with Malaya, who might be in that class.
…. which one would find it awkward? I don’t think either of them would have a problem with that…
Well, Joyce does also know they’ve had sex…
If anything it makes the job easier. She’s basically got intimate experience that the other artists in the room can only dream of. Nothing helps you with form than having felt your subject in your guts.
boo
I don’T think Malaya was particularly paying attention.
Oh man I hope so, that’d be another Joyce freakout panel
It won’t be. Joyce’s brain will go into a DIFFERENT kind of overload.
You have said it and now I want to see it
This also crossed my mind, let’s all will it into existence 😛 😛 😛
I almost made this prediction a week or so ago!! He’s gotta be, right??
*also, not almost
For maximum dramatic effect, yes. With Malaya and what’s her face In the class too.
For sheer horror I’m gonna guess What’s Her Face is Mary
Mary will carry on for her art.
Mary will draw the same abstract anime dude again for the billionth time.
College has yet to beat the ca. 2006 DeviantArt out of her drawing hand.
Starting some Discussion maybe in this shit tonight
So, I’ve always been one of the folks kinda leery about the League of Evil Dads arc, while it was going on it felt really weird and artificial and hard to believe, but last night I followed a link and reread it as a whole and like…
…Okay, it’s still not the same tone as a lot of the rest of the comic but at a normal pace it’s actually got a fucking great action movie made of amazing character moments vibe? Like I think it might actually be one of the best character writing arcs in the comic and possibly THE best that shows off so many characters? The quips and twists hit different in a way where I want to suspend my disbelief now because I’m able to keep the emotional rhythm of the story.
It’s really kind of blown my mind a little and opened up a lot of questions in my mind about the formatting for different kinds of stories and the way pacing affects emotion in fiction.
Yup. As someone with a pretty great memory, and a bit of a robotic emotional core, the pacing of webcomics tends not to be a problem for me, because I can rewind myself to the previous day and resume the emotional journey. But it’s definitely an issue that I’ve seen a lot of people have and it’s a very understandable one.
It’s interesting to compare it to comic books, too, where each issue comes out on a monthly cadence, has about 30 pages, each of which has about the same amount of story content* as a webcomic strip: on average, you get the same amount of story over time, but you experience the entire month in one go. (I wish I was familiar enough with the serial-fiction scene to approximate average story content per time period there, too, since that should be an interesting point of comparison.)
* Please note that I am not comparing artist effort, which is a massively different measure. But, like, I also read Girl Genius and Dresden Codak and Subnormality, so.
I am impressed. I am a mega-fan of the Foglios, but GG is so plot-dense I find it impossible to follow the narrative in any doses smaller than graphic novel collection.
Joe wasn’t exactly ignoring Joyce if she was preoccupied talking to Dina, a conversation which she initiated.
He does tend to leave without telling anybody (especially…mostly you).
Though life class is like…the prime time for some nude Joe and embarassed Joyce.
Dorothy. Dorothy, honey. I’m saying this for your own good.
You gotta stop giving 120% of yourself. You’ve only got 100% to give, you’re just borrowing that extra 20% from your future self. Eventually that debt is going to come back with interest.
Dorotht, googling would have been more than enough, you’re just going to burn yourself out, DOROTHY PLZ–
(And Joyce, I’m saying this for your own good: go kiss Joe.)
(that would probably make Joe freak out, and gently push her away before he runs and hides, because he’d ruin her don’t you see?)
Of course that’s what Joyce notices.
A+ best friending from Dorothy though
Joyce: I don’t actually want to draw. I was just thinking about it.
And in that moment, I knew Dotty had fallen for Joyce, but had to feel the sting of Joyce falling for Joe.
Oh, you lovable dorks work it out before Dorothy switches schools!
Does Dorothy have too much free time? Like why she doing all this? Me thinks she’s trying to compensate for the fact she’s bout to bounce to Ivy League land and hasn’t told Joyce and is guilty about it cause she knows Joyce won’t take it well. Being extra nice and motherly might soften the blow or something.
Good thinking. She seems to be abasing herself before Joyce here in a way that is not at all appreciated. I am a little worried Joyce is so mad at Dorothy (despite the bizarre plea to get her into a drawing class) that she is going to straight up shun Dorothy. Joyce is so hot and cold, maybe it would be helpful to her to drop both her scowl and the triangle smile of her troubled youth for Dina’s 😐
No, Dorothy has no free time. Which is why, one of these days, she’s probably going to explode, implode, or melt down on the spot.
I actually think she does. Last semester was Dorothy burnout as she skipped studying early on to chase Amazi-girl around and bang Walky until she cornered herself into a cram situation that made her noticeably miss out on developments and showering. I don’t know if she has a lighter course load or just figured out a more functioning study session but she’s had time to dick around developing comics, show up early to R.A. meetings, attend dead mom parties, and set her ex up with the black and straighter version of Joyce. I think Dots must be bored out of her mind to busy body this hard.
…I think Dorothy decided not to go to Yale, and is doing this to make herself feel better about “letting herself down”. (“See? I’m useful! I’m useful! I can still be worth something! Please tell me I’m useful!”)
This is just Dorothy. Joyce wanted her to look into it. This is how she does that. She’s not going to go halfway just because she’s doing it for someone else.
Dorothy said she’d text Joyce the details after Joyce sounded her out for being too up her ass and Dorothy even seemed to be frustrated too.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/crowded/
It’s not doing things halfway to just do what you said you would. This is just going beyond for no reason. I’m actually starting to worry for Dorothy putting so much of herself into stuff like this.
For Dorothy it is. It’s not about what she said she’d do, it’s just that once she starts looking, she’s going to take it the rest of the way.
See to me is the difference of agency: please research my options versus buy stuff for me and decide I owe you food in exchange. She was chewed out for being up her butt… seems like the favor still placed Dorothy firmly up her butt.
I was like this in college and I don’t know why. I mean underlying was probably the feeling that I was unlikable unless I was helping other people and felt that putting up with me was somewhat transactional. Adding to that people like Joyce did tend to glom onto me and ask for too much (which they would then resent later, and years later I would get an apologetic email). Now I deeply avoid people (other than my husband) who seem to put me on a pedestal or want to get too close.
Everyone I’ve met who has been through this Dorothy phase has had a bad home live growing up (there are even Twitter threads!) but I don’t think that’s Dorothy’s situation.
But in terms of why did I sacrifice things I wanted to do to help people … I did because they asked or complained they needed help and we were friends. I had a hard time saying no to anything, and I still cannot half-ass a job once I start.
Dorothy is so deep in Joyce’s ass that she might as well start inspecting her colon.
Joyce literally asked for this favor, though. This one’s all on her.
True, Joyce did, and after an epic lashing out. If Dorothy had some self-respect and self-preservation she would have told Joyce to shove it. Especially since she’s so busy! Dorothy is hanging in by her fingernails to what’s left of her sanity after that kidnapping perhaps.
Dorothy was going to text her a list of classes.
Then she had this encounter with Jennifer, and she extra-Dorothy-ed in response.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/sporadically/
Dorothy then: “You make some valid points”
Dorothy today: And I’m going to ignore them all, apparently.
Dorothy was never just going to text her a list of classes, whatever she said.
I still don’t think Dorothy has the charisma to get elected to high office, but if she learns how to take and analyze surveys she might have a future as a pollypster.
Dorothy is staring hard in panel four. I don’t blame her but damn girl be discreet.
She’s looking respectfully. Intensely but respectfully.
She’s just admiring out of an objective, aesthetic sense of respect for good craftsmanship.
It’s not like she likes Joe or anything, b-baka
I hope Joyce doesn’t still need to be walked between classes, but yeah, even if she did, I don’t think Joe knows about that, does he?
what if theres someone else behind Dorothy talking to her? lol
in all serious tho, figure drawing classes are super recommended
its rude to talk about your crush in front of your wife; Joyce.
…yeah I’m with Jennifer, Dottie is a bit too imposing. Even if they weren’t dating to be dating, buying someone class supplies before they agree to it is a BIT much.
kids grow up so fast. right Dotty? Now she has a phase for boys, you won’t look back and she will start dyeing hair and want a tattoo
I’m going to laugh my ass off if Joe turns out to be the model.
JOYCEIFFER JOPLIN BROWN, YOU WILL SAY THANK YOU TO YOUR BUTTMOM-WIFE RIGHT THIS INSTANT.
bless your heart, Joyce
Panel 3, that’s a comma after Joyce’s name, right? Dorothy just launches into her two panels worth of talk without waiting for any acknowledgement from Joyce that she’s even there, let alone that Joyce (arms crossed, looking away, seemingly in thought) is ready to engage and respond to her.
Joyce then finishes her thought, vocalizes her conclusion, and will probably respond to Dorothy next panel. Is she really being egregiously rude here?
No no, you see, this must be a deliberate snub because
In this essay I will…
Yeah, Dorothy really is a bourgeois busybody with this girl scout badge mentality that gets her motivated to help Joyce in the wrong ways and for all the wrong reasons. 🙄
I’m starting to see what people mean when they express their irritation with the supposed black and white comments now… They really are black and white! It doesn’t look like Joyce intentionally ignored Dorothy at all here, but people are acting like she’s a disrespectful CHILD. Emphasis on child because again, that’s how these comments seem to see her- a petulant child who needs to respect her mother???? It’s getting weird up in here.
Fucking RIGHT?!?! Infantilization is so insidious like this. The struggle is real bruh.
Truly, it’s reminding me of sad and irritating things!!! Reading Joyce related comments isn’t always the happiest time. But I think I may have misread one comment- tone over text is hard ;; but what I said still applies!
I think some of it stems from people wanting Joyce to call Dorothy “mommy”.
I haven’t really seen those comments, but I’m reading the next morning? Maybe they’ve been moderated? I haven’t read the entire comments section though.
They’re supposed to be black and light blue. You might want to calibrate your screen’s brightness…
No, she’s not. If anything, Dorothy is the one being rude, because she’s just talking at Joyce when she hasn’t gotten her attention yet.
I will say, I get incredibly irritated if someone does that, because I have auditory processing issues and ADHD, so if I’m not specifically addressed or front loaded with a “Hey, check this out” (especially by someone outside my FOV), I’ll miss the context for whatever somebody is saying. Which means I have to ask them to repeat themselves, which nobody involved ever wants, and sometimes they’ll completely refuse to repeat the context and instead decide only the last four words are worth saying again.
Always always always make sure the person you’re talking to is paying attention before you start jabbering, unless you just don’t care if they actually heard you. No exceptions.
THIS. 👏👏👏 💯
I don’t think she was trying to be rude at all! :3
By she i meant Joyce but dorothy also wasn’t trying to be rude. It’s just a miscommunication that could be easily resolved in real life!
In like 3 hours, it probably will be in-comic, too.
Most rudeness is not because people are *trying* to be rude. However, that does not make massive boundary stomping okay.
I know Joyce asked Dorothy to help find life-drawing classes for her, but she could at least wait for Joyce to decide whether to enroll in one of those classes before buying supplies for her and such. I feel like Dorothy really needs to learn to stop “momming” for her friends and let them do things for themselves and make their own choices already.
I concur.
Perhaps Booster should do a psychic ray attack on Dorothy. That should be fun.
Also, Kuelen, re: your avatar, I happen to be a Marxist alien parasite, wanna join forces? 😈
Join forces how? Politically I’m very left-wing, but I’m not that good at art. I literally made this avatar in MS Paint, by combining this really good artwork of Twilight Sparkle with the flag of the Communist Party of Vietnam.
Well, the sketch book isn’t that big a deal. If Joyce decides she doesn’t want to continue the classes, she can still utilize the sketchbook since she’s working on a comic for the newspaper. She could use it for practice, for designing characters or outfits for her comic… I’d say it’s a gift that’d be easy to use in any context, not just life drawing. It’d be different if she got her, say, some modeling clay because Joyce expressed interest in clay art, because if she did lose interest then she doesn’t have much else to do with clay. But a sketchbook and some drawing tools (presumably pencils, maybe charcoal if you wanna get fancy)? She can still use that.
It’s a really thoughtful present! :3
Yeah, Joyce has demonstrated she’s pretty committed to drawing her comic! That sketch pad will absolutely get used, one way or another.
With the past context of Dorothy going overboard or presuming too much in being helpful, you could say this is another example of that, and maybe it is? But I think it could just as easily be—an olive branch isn’t quite right, because they’re not fighting—an attempt at a thoughtful gesture for a friend who’s stressed out and unhappy, after a not-great experience that morning with the birth control pills, on what SHOULD be a less-fraught subject, in an area where Joyce DID ask Dorothy for help.
I think Dorothy’s biggest error here is having a class picked out for tonight, not to mention talking to the instructor on Joyce’s behalf. Especially knowing Joyce may have autism and having done research on it, she should know that randomly dropping a commitment on an autistic person with short-notice is really unhelpful and overwhelming.
I feel like she could have come with the info on the class and offered to do the other parts together (contact the instructor and buy supplies). Honestly I think shopping for hobby supplies with your friend is actually a really fun idea.
Dorothy is mom-ing so much she’s missing out on bonding and friend stuff fthey could do together.
That a good point! I was thinking it’s less of an overstep to buy supplies if the class is imminent, because that’s one less barrier to Joyce being able to do—it takes a potential task off Joyce’s plate when she’s short on the spoons to do it herself (and again, those supplies will almost certainly get used even outside a classroom setting, because the comic strip is not a whim to Joyce, it’s something she’s demonstrated a very serious interest in following through on).
But…yeah. This *could’ve* been a fun thing they did together, which is the kind of time Joyce has shown that she wants to have with Dorothy! It’s a missed opportunity.
On a slightly different note, I dislike it a lot when people buy things on my behalf that I then have to pay them back for, if I didn’t ask them to do it in the first place, but Dorothy saying “you can pay me back in boxes of Mac and Cheese if you want” makes it feel low-stakes, and like it’s an IOU that can be redeemed by exactly the kind of socializing Joyce does like to do with Dorothy, which is actually pretty sweet.
Anyway! Good intentions, possibly mixed results, for Dorothy here. I’m curious how Joyce will react to it all.
I think that buying in exchange for stuff was what got my hackles up too. Yeah, it’s low stakes, but Dorothy has been pushing boundaries and was asked to do X and proceeded to impose what now feels like a requirement by doing Y. I would have intentionally ignored her a second while I counted to 10 in my head to formulate a at least semi-appreciative reply that would lead to a… please don’t do this again when I’m already being pressured.
That a good point! I was thinking it’s less of an overstep to buy supplies if the class is imminent, because that’s one less barrier to Joyce being able to do—it takes a potential task off Joyce’s plate when she’s short on the spoons to do it herself (and again, those supplies will almost certainly get used even outside a classroom setting, because the comic strip is not a whim to Joyce, it’s something she’s demonstrated a very serious interest in following through on).
Buying supplies creates an imbalance in favors, because Dorothy has spent both time and money into this, and now Joyce has to spend an equivalent amount to make the friendship equal again. It’s not okay to dump that on your friend, to create the perception of an obligation, unless they’ve actually asked you to do so.
Yeah, I agree! It raised my hackles for exactly that reason. But then I found them lowering, because the way Dorothy frames it the repayment options is something that it struck me that Joyce, specifically, might be cool with. It’s one of those things that can be fine specifically between friends, even if it’s very much a no for me. Which is why I’m curious to see how Joyce will take that!
When my sister and I lived in the same town and went out for coffee etc on a regular basis, we didn’t always negotiate who was paying each time. We had a very informal tally, and we did not balance things out with a strict 1:1 coffee ratio. It could be that she paid for the coffee, but I picked up the entire tip at lunch the next week, or put more towards groceries when we were shopping for a dinner we were going to make together. We mostly kept it monetary expense for monetary expense, but sometimes it would be, “I’m buying you lunch because you moved my car for street cleaning while I was out of state”. This is all totally cool, if you have these as established relationship norms! So I’m interested in whether Dorothy and Joyce have that sort of comfort level/understanding or not. If not, Dorothy is overstepping a lot…but they’re pretty close, so maybe they do.
Is Dorothy checking out Joyce in fourth panel?
no ofc not…..
but is she? 😛
Had to check to see if anyone else immediately jumped to that.
late but yeah, thought the same
Don’t get what commenters are worried about. Sure Dorothy will appreciate that Joyce has her priorities right and duly inform her that the guy modeling for this life drawing class is some J. Rosenthal.
Oh man, I hope you are right. I hope you are entirely right. I will pay money to see this. I will venmo DW the entire 6.30 AUD in my bank account to make it happen. And if that fails I will make it my damn self.
This totally happened in Roomies!, Joe wanted to model for hot coeds, Mary was in the class, it was a good time. Yes to revisiting this nonsense.
So, couple things.
First of all, when you’re speaking to other people you should ensure you’ve gotten their attention first before you actually tell them things of import or that you expect a response to. This is not just a thing you should do with your ND friends, it’s a mannerly and sensible thing you should do with everybody.
Dorothy approached and said something to Joyce, and then kept talking even though Joyce didn’t even turn her way or otherwise respond. Even if Joyce is *deliberately* ignoring Dorothy here (and I don’t think she is – like other posters, I think Joyce has not yet registered that Dorothy is there and talking to her), Dorothy is still also not in the right.
With that said – Dorothy, honey, you gotta stop. Not just because it’s an inappropriate way to treat your friends, though it is, but because it’s an inappropriate way to treat yourself. This is not good. All that time and energy you’re investing on fixing Joyce? Take it and spend it on yourself. Because the *best case* scenario here is that Dorothy is going to burn herself out, and honestly, I’m starting to learn towards a more worst case scenario – Dorothy is using “gotta go, gotta mom!” as an excuse to avoid dealing with her own problems. This is not gonna end well.
just want to second this, as a person with probably auditory processing issues (possibly hearing issues)
As someone who is really good at just… tuning out of reality (to the point it took a coworker 5 minutes to get my attention as I stared blankly into space) yes, make sure you have my actual attention before continuing to speak to me.
Dorothy was just excited!
Excited about what? About the fact that Joyce asked her to make a list of classes, and instead she steamrolled ahead and signed her up and got her all the supplies and books she’ll need?
That’s not something she should be excited about, because that’s not something she should have *done*.
Thank you. Between that and the “confirm my attention” pretty much summarizes why I feel gross about this page. Plus the “and now you can pay me back” expectation.
Well, Joyce, it could be that Joe rushed off to get ready for this modeling gig. But honestly, that sounds too predictable.
Personally my money is on Jacob or even Walky.
DOROTHY, LEAVE HER
YOU DON’T NEED THIS
“You can pay me back in Mac and cheese dinners if you like” sounds awwwwfully close to date night. Between this and Joyce’s reaction to Joe being gone, I smell a bi relationship angle brewing.
“Dontcha mean ‘triangle’?”
Only if Dorothy expresses interest in Joe too.
Does Joyce separate the Mac and Cheese, or is this a dish she doesn’t view as needing to be separate?
There’s probably a strip in the archives that covers this exact thing, but it’s hard to search on Joyce related strips.
No, she just makes it according to the package directions. She made it for Dorothy and Becky shortly after Becky found out she’s an atheist
I’d be an atheist too if I thought plain blue box Mac & Cheese was the height of cuisine
(I mean, I’m an atheist anyways, but for unrelated reasons)
found it
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-12/02-ill-leave-you-a-phantom/orangeperfection/
Mac and Cheese is one thing.
Notice me, kouhai!
Huh. People are talking about Dorothy checking Joyce out and I thought she was just looking at the sketch book that she was talking about. Then looking up and realizing that Joyce wasn’t listening…
Lol I’m Joe.
Let us have our dreams, damn it.
Hey, remember yesterday when we all got to see Joyce and Dina resolving their conflict with a sweet moment and it turned out that maybe all the diatribes about how each of them were The Worst were maybe a bit premature?
Sounds like you’re trying to gaslight us all.
/s
My exact thoughts.
We shall learn nothing! Nothing, I say!
Bashing her head with the sketchbook is still an option, mommy dotty
That seems like a very slight overreaction to not being somebody’s focus of attention at the moment.
Too much is never enough.
ever felt you just had to give up on a matter altogether?
Yeah, constantly. Mostly when a person is excessively negative about everything and just a downer to be around, but still laps up as much praise as they can fish for. Or when I’m losing at card games, have absolutely no way out of a jam, and the opponent shows no sign of ending their goddamn turn.
“But I haven’t finished grinding you into dust yet!”
Dunno if Dorothy will go to the stupid university of her dreams, but if she does, I think the phone calls with Joyce will gradually decrease over time until they disappear, completely. Maybe she could continue to call or write to Becky and Sarah. But I think that once she’s away from Joyce she will want to distance herself more and more. This or realising she’s madly in love with her.
Dorothy, I really, really hope that you were already at the store for your own reasons and picked up some stuff for Joyce because it was convenient. That’s a “nice friend” thing to do. Making a trip solely for Joyce? That’s “helicopter parent” levels.
Making the call to the professor I’m more sanguine on- calls like that, no matter how routine, tax a lot of my mental resources, but they seem like the sort of thing Dorothy thrives on. So that’s more acceptable IMO.
This would at first seem to be about Dorothy’s declining emotional state, but I think there is a larger plot going on in which Joyce and Joe get married because they make each other miserable and love to hate each other. The Nagging Wife is developing. Peg and Al Bundy. Misery loves company.
Dorothy please call her out. You both need to work on boundaries.
Also Joyce is starting to seem practically solipsistic. Other people only exist when she’s paying attention to them specifically.
And you thought she wasn’t learning from the Instructor.
Yeah, call her out on having something else on her mind for five seconds. She’s trampling all over those boundaries by thinking about someone other than Dorothy.
what are some neurodivergent behaviours us commenters engage in that are not depicted in the many years of this comic? (this isn’t an indictment against the author, there are near infinite possibilities so it would be impossible to show or know them all)
I’ll start: I have a compulsion to begin and end staircases with my right foot, I’ll skip the last step when necessary. I have to fiddle with my own body so having ear piercings is the best because I can rotate them infinitely (I have a theory that if I didn’t have piercings I’d develop trichotillomania).
The sound or sight of people messing with their own nails is so uncomfortable, it makes me want to turn my skin inside out. Trimming my own nails is tolerable because I know the end result is having very short nails (ideal)
When I was a kid I used to skip the first and last step of the stairs because I had the odd notion that Lord Zedd from Power Rangers had trapped those steps. I forget exactly when I stopped.
Dina had a similar reaction to the dorm party way back when, but if things are just Too Loud for Too Long I will basically shut down and get incredibly, incredibly cranky.
All sounds, even pleasant ones, can become overbearing. So I can’t always listen to music, podcasts, or streamers. And yet sometimes there will be a song that I listen to exclusively for 72 hrs straight. Sound stimming is weird, man.
I can’t hop into a stream in the middle, I _have_ to be there at the beginning. This can be quite annoying when I miss the start of a stream by like 2 minutes.
The texture of cotton balls, some blankets, and some socks are Just No. Touching them gives me a weird feeling in my mouth, even if I don’t intend to put them anywhere near my mouth.
My blankets need some weight to them if I’m using them to sleep. Even if they’re otherwise perfectly serviceable and lure my cats.
Sour gummy candy has the perfect texture and the perfect taste for warding off depression.
For a while, I would only get out of bed on a multiple of 5 minutes. (8:30, 8:35, etc.) More recently, I will try to get the timestamps on (some) personal journal/blog entries to follow a similar pattern.
A while back, a friend finished a statement with “Look, I’m not going to lie about something like this, any more than I’m going to eat unsorted candy.” I added, “And half of you just nod” (in perfect understanding and agreement).
When I was very young and had learned to count, I had a compulsion almost to the point of a fetish to watch trains go by and count the cars. I had an aunt who used to live along a set of railroad tracks, and I almost gave her a heart attack one time when I was around seven or eight; I burst out of the house and ran toward the tracks – with her in hot but futile pursuit – to better see the cars and make my count.
Now, even though I’m past the age to collect Social Security, I still have that undeniable compulsion to count the cars on the train when I’m forced to stop at a railroad crossing.
I cannot stand when the sides of my fingers touch, I know it sounds odd but it creates a weird feedback loop in my brain
As a result I tend to keep my fingers splayed as much as possible even when it doesn’t make sense to
This isn’t exactly a behavior, but it is a thing I’ve only heard about from a. a small number of autistic people and b. my mother and her mother:
I sometimes forget how to move. That’s not the right phrasing, but that’s what it *feels* like, like I want to get up or something, and I can picture all the steps, and I’m sending the impulse to the various muscles and… nothing happens. I just sit there/lie there/stand there.
If I’m not careful, when the signal finally goes through I’m liable to smack myself in the face.
Oh god, you do that too? It’s so annoying when I physically can’t get myself to act in any way. Like “Hi, thanks body, can we go now? I’m very hungry and have to use the bathroom, and it’s been like 47 minutes now.”
If I’m standing I sometimes can “jump-start” movement by letting myself lean forward so I have to catch myself and then can move again, but otherwise it’s just flipping annoying, and I’ve never figured out the actual thing that causes it.
And it’s not the most well-documented autistic trait out there either.
Mine is other people noisily eating.
Imagine an otherwise quiet office periodically interrupted by “*Schluuuurp* *glorp* ‘aah'”.
Or the hollow popping of someone else eating crunchy food.
Instant. Rage.
Joyce, do you miss being scolded by your Mom when you are being rude and try to frustrate Dorothy into getting mad at you?
If Joyce is being rude right now (she isn’t), then it’s an extremely low-grade rudeness that doesn’t matter. Sometimes we aren’t the focus of somebody’s attention for a few seconds, and that’s fine.
Dorothy is such a good friend. Don’t worry, dorothy! Joyce is just a little distracted, she’ll pay attention to you soon. :3
Dotty is 100% gonna blow a fuse. Gonna go full Donald Duck in a minute.
That would be fitting, because Donald Duck frequently flips his entire life over very small things.
Oohh, that makes a lot more sense than what I thought they meant at first…
bisexuality go brrr
My take on a couple of things:
Joyce, since becoming an apostate, has become significantly more self-centered, and not always in a positive way. When she was religious, she very often put her focus on other people, in ways that were harmful – dating Ethan to “fix” him, convincing Dorothy and others to go to church with her, butting into Jennifer’s drama when it wasn’t her business. The list goes on. There were selfish motivations for some of these, but consciously her focus was elsewhere. Now that Joyce has become an apostate and she realizes that it’s actually okay – healthy, even – to be self-centered, she’s become nothing but self-centered. Yesterday we saw a break in that trend when she stopped to think about how her words and actions have affected Dina, and then again today we see her become self-centered again. I’m certain she’ll come to find a healthy balance of focus on self/others, but right now she’s not quite there.
Dorothy, on the other hand, is very used to Joyce needing her and wanting her time. Last semester, Joyce would have killed for this level of attention from Dorothy, and… I think Dorothy kind of misses that attention. Dorothy’s neediness to be needed is showing very strongly here.
Thoughts? Have you all noticed the same things or am I full of it?
Yeah, to an extent. I’d add that Joyce the apostate has also butted into Ruth’s drama when it’s none of her business (I believe that was the point where Dorothy suggested that she was still thinking like an evangelical, just an an atheist one), but in general it’s definitely a pattern.
Oh true – forgot about her butting into Ruth’s drama
Hey remember when Joyce self-centeredly was distracted all day on the anniversary of Bonnie’s death because, with the revelation that Bonnie died by suicide, not of cancer, she was self-centeredly re-evaluating her behavior and concerned that she might have said unkind or insensitive things to Becky at the time? And she self-centeredly withheld her new atheism from Becky while Becky was talking about how comforting it was to know her mother was up in Heaven, looking down on them?
Self-reflection and concern for how her words and actions impact the people around her, ugh. SO toxic.
Hehehe
I feel like your comment is dripping with sarcasm!
I don’t think I said Joyce was toxic, or even spoke ill of her. Self-reflection and concern about words and actions are great things, and on that day, Joyce was being really receptive of the people around her and really being a good friend to Becky.
I mean, yeah, it was. I was indeed being very sarcastic. You said Joyce has “been nothing but self-centered” “since becoming an apostate”. There is something about that that I really do not like—the framing of Joyce being a less good person, since she’s left her faith, using a word (apostate) that’s rare to be used outside a religious framework, and mainly used by religious people, to describe someone who’s abandoned their faith, in a shameful way.
Apostate is a word Becky might use to describe Joyce, or that Carol or John might use, to describe Joyce. It’s not a word that Joyce has used for herself. It would be weird and unwelcome and not great for any of the non-Christian people Joyce knows to use to describe Joyce. “Apostate” has a specific religious connotation, and it’s not exactly neutral or flattering when applied to an 18-year-old girl who quit Christianity for the reasons Joyce quit Christianity.
Okay, that’s the context I was missing. I love the word apostate, because it sounds cool, and I am one myself. I wear it like a badge of pride. So I didn’t realize the negative connotations it might hold to others.
I don’t even know that it’s Dorothy needing to be needed so much as knowing Joyce is hurting and not really knowing how to help because she’s a fixer more than a listener. (I had to learn to ask do you want me to listen or to try to fix this?)
That’s a good point. I’ve had to learn that same thing, myself, since I’m similar to Dorothy in wanting to do something if I feel something’s wrong.
Just about all the characters have many moments of being self-centered (which is a people-y thing to be). If Joyce’s self-centered-ness is at all correlated with her atheism, it’s just as easily an artifact, that right now she’s hurting more, so she needs to turn inwards and take care of herself more than she used to.
Although, come to think of it, since she was raised as a fundie Christian girl, Joyce has never been allowed to think about herself or her needs, at all. She wasn’t allowed to make her own life plans. Nothing. (She even had a song about it.) She was supposed to want what God wanted for her, as communicated/demanded by her future husband.
She’s still the same extrovert she was, she still cares about other people — just, it may be a good idea for her to make up for that lost time and find out who she is, sketch out what she wants/needs, when nobody is going to shake her up and erase her up and show her who she has to be.
This! All this!
Joyce cares so much about other people! She spent a huge chunk of the past six months prioritizing a friend’s needs over her own, because that friend’s life was falling apart and they needed that level of support!
Now she’s struggling herself, and her support network is not really used to a Joyce who wants to explore new and less comfortably *selfless* parts of herself; almost any kind of assertion of her self-identity that isn’t centered around other people’s happiness just gets belittled as selfishness or immaturity.
I feel like people want Joyce to still be everything easy and sweet and fun about first semester Joyce, Just Without The Christian Fundamentalism. And now that she’s Joyce, Actively Moving Out Of The Christian Fundamentalism, folks are mad because she’s not being nice enough to everyone, all the time.
The thing that makes Joyce such a compelling character to me isn’t that she’s nice. It’s that *she wants to be a good person*, and she will change herself, even push herself in directions that unnerve and upset her, in pursuit of being a good person. And that kind of genuine emotional growth and change is impossible to achieve without self-reflection, without giving yourself the space to experience your feelings, to think widely and deeply, and yeah, to think specifically about yourself and who you are and what you want and what pleases you or frightens you or what makes you feel crazy or angry.
Well put!
I want to clarify that I think there’s a distinction between self-centeredness, which is a focus on the self and one’s needs, and selfishness, which is prioritizing yourself at the expense of others. Self-centeredness isn’t necessarily a bad thing, is actually often healthy, and what Joyce needs to figure out how to do well at this point in her life.
I agree, Leorale! That’s kind of what I was wondering – if her fundie upbringing demonized her healthy and natural inclinations to consider her self and her own needs, since the needs of God (or, the authority figures in her life who’d benefit from her obedience) were what she was taught to prioritize.
I don’t know how to tell you this, but all those things you claim were Joyce putting the focus on other people were actually Joyce putting the focus on herself. Her religion, her beliefs, her, her, her.
So you and this notion can fuck entirely off.
(as gravatar position may suggest otherwise, I feel it’s best o clarify that this is meant for Exarch, not Leorale)
But… I agree with what Leorale said? It’s similar to what I was trying to say?
I’m not sure why my comment got as much hostility as it did
Joyce is in denial of being horny for Joe, and being ignored by him is spurring that horniness further. Did you say something, Dotty? I thought we were taking a break.
Looks like Dorothy’s presence hasn’t even registered yet.
The thing that makes all this Dorothy and Joyce stuff really hit is that I’ve been both of them. I’ve been the person going through a lot who ends up being a jerk to people trying to help. I’ve also been the person trying to help someone and getting nothing in exchange.
It’s not a great thing for either of em, and hopefully one or the other (or both!) realize it before things get too toxic. Cuz it super can if Dorothy doesn’t set healthy boundaries or Joyce doesn’t put together what’s happening.
I have faith that they’ll talk it through before things get too bad. There might be a heated moment or two, but they’ve both shown that they genuinely want what’s best for each other.
I bet there could be a Bar Chart of the levels of Repressed Rage in the full cast of DoA.
“Not that I care what he does or doesn’t do or anything.”
Really? Dothy already bought all the materials to Joyce?
She got really annoying today.
Joyce would have loved this last semester. I think they’ve both changed slightly (or maybe just Joyce) and haven’t gotten used to how things are now. Their friendship can still work out.
Yeah, Joe. What’s up with that?
Hoping he fled so he can experience some introspection.
Fearing he fled cause he wants to find a hookup to drown out all the feels he felt when holding Joyce’s hand.
Here’s where I’d advise Dorothy to apply that energy to someone who pays. That’s not mom stuff (if it is, for you, congrats on your mom), that’s executive assistant stuff. Don’t waste it on someone who feels put out by it.
YES. $$$$
I think maybe Dorothy realizes she messed up and is trying to atone by going the extra mile on the request Joyce made, but it’s backfiring.
Joyce has not yet noticed that Dorothy is there. Dorothy is about to take this autistic trait suuuuuper personally.
Probably get some angry responses but…
I like my mac with a dash of garlic powder and a tiny bit of black pepper. Of course, I’m an outlier who hasn’t had those cups. Just from the box as a side for baked chicken breast.
I’d be terrified, but not at all surprised, to find out some people on the internet are territorial about this.
So long as you don’t use ketchup you should be fine
Anyone who thinks their “territory” extends to other people’s dinner plates, is already in the wrong state of mind and can kindly toddle off.
Calling it right now: Joe isn’t the life model. He’s one of the students.
Well we’ll just have to see about that one.
Replying to the alt-text if it’s $15 that would be like 8 or 9 mac and cheese dinners.
What I originally came to say was Joyce has difficulties shifting mental gears, kinda like I had when I was tending store in a multi-ethnic neighborhood where I spoke 3 languages of the melting pot counting English. Switching from one language to any of the others was jarring, like whiplash of the brain. So I get this.
$15 could buy 30 Wegmans Mac & Cheese kits!